In this episode of the comment section, I sit down with the legendary Jonathan Van Ness to discuss his new book, and how he got into comedy. He also talks about how he became a stand-up comic, and why he doesn t care what other people think of him.
00:00:00.000My platform and my podcast is not a space to platform your rhetoric and your hate.
00:00:05.120And that's not someone I'm going to convince because believe it or not, someone who's violently misogynistic is not going to hear me when I say that you shouldn't treat women like that because that's bad.
00:00:15.540They're not even going to hear that very foundational, like superficial understanding of why bigotry is harmful and violent.
00:09:34.300You've been in the industry for a really, really long time.
00:09:36.920And you've, in a long time, in the sense that you've established this platform and you've explored so many different avenues, like, you know, like your book and your tour and your show and everything under the sun.
00:09:48.740So, like, what would you say you're most excited about nowadays now that you've kind of conquered so many different, like, industries?
00:09:55.140I don't know if I've conquered them, darling.
00:09:59.380I mean, I have to say, like, why I was laughing because I was like, not your journalistic prowess is fucking major and I'm obsessed with it.
00:10:06.360But that is the first time in an interview where someone has told me, like, you've been in the industry for a long time.
00:10:10.980And it reminds me of this time when this, like, amazing journalist from, like, Out Magazine referred to me in an interview as one of our community elders.
00:10:18.000And I was like, I would never call you that.
00:10:20.940I was like, it's, that's how I, I, I just, I always was that person who was, like, the youngest girl in her group of friends.
00:10:27.060And, like, that's not the truth anymore for me.
00:10:29.980Well, who's to say, who's to say you're not the youngest girl in this room?
00:10:49.720I do think one thing in my career or my ADHD is that, like, if I don't naturally want to learn about it or, like, do the thing, it's really hard for me to do the thing.
00:11:19.880But that kind of transposes onto my career that, like, if I don't really think it's that interesting, then I'm not really going to be doing it.
00:17:37.940By then, I did get to meet my hero in her, and she ended up becoming my friend, and she's, like, the most cool, amazing, like, I just love her so much.
00:17:47.120And she's actually the ambassador to Belize now.
00:18:15.400And I would also say this question would be so answered for anyone who watches or who listens because we have, it depends on, like, what you're interested in.
00:18:51.080And so, that episode was really interesting in learning about just, like, how far back, learning when, like, really controlling women's bodies, like, really came into play.
00:19:00.240And also, the relationship between transphobia, or our relationship to transphobia and homophobia is actually really closely linked to the Nazis.
00:19:11.240And I learned that from Dr. Jake Newsome.
00:19:50.400Like, sometimes episodes are really funny because, like, our guests are just like, the fuck did I get my, how did my assistant let me come on this podcast?
00:19:56.840Because a lot of times, like, our guests, like, don't know who the fuck I am.
00:20:00.500Yeah, because they're, like, biologist, they're just, like, these really academic, like, you know, people that are, like, researching, like, really different, important, niche things.
00:21:14.160And prior to the invention of eugenics, when, like, European explorers first went to Africa, they were, like, these people are gorgeous and stunning and, like, their features and this and that.
00:21:25.140And it was, like, you know, beautiful and, like, interest.
00:21:27.240Because then after the invention of eugenics, they were, like, we have to save all these people because they are not Christian and they're actually evolving to become not civilized.
00:21:35.620And so we got to make sure that we're all, you know, evolving because they took Darwin and evolution, which, like, you know, Charles Darwin, his first cousin.
00:21:43.540This is actually one of the fucking craziest things.
00:21:45.140Now that I know that you're fucking hip, so I can tell you about it.
00:21:47.680Didn't know this until you say walking in my field.
00:21:49.720But, so, Charles Darwin, first cousin, Francis Galton, inventor of eugenics.
00:22:01.240So he literally just took, like, he just took, like, evolution and survival of the fittest and all that and just, like, and, like, racialized it.
00:24:12.100Basically, like, I've had this conversation many times because, especially on TikTok, because I feel like these are things when I have really nuanced conversations, especially about the gender binary.
00:24:22.740And how it plays right into the hands of misogyny and patriarchy and their pillars of the patriarchy, which is also a pillar of white supremacy.
00:24:30.060When I talk about all of that, a lot of times they're like, ugh, ugh.
00:24:51.000So, like, when I first started understanding and hearing, like, what white privilege meant, and, like, hearing that term, for me, it was, like, Amanda Seals, and it was, like, 2016, like, 2015.
00:25:01.100And I got into work with her on Game of Thrones, and there were absolutely times where, like, things, like, where she would post in where I'd be like, no.
00:25:09.720Like, like, and it really, like, I did get defensive, and I did feel some kind of way about it.
00:25:21.500And then starting to be like, oh, that's true.
00:25:23.860Like, we are absolutely built on genocide and absolutely reparations right fucking now.
00:25:28.860And, but when you've been taught American history in a certain way from, you know, this big, and, like, and you really, like, are fitting the mold of what the people are teaching you, you know?
00:25:49.100And then as I realized that I'm super queer and not cishet, and I started to realize, like, and I started to feel the effects of that, which was, like, really early for me.
00:25:58.840Calling back to that, I was like, oh, my God, that is, whoa.
00:26:01.440And so I have, like, a whole chapter in my second, and love that story about, it's, that chapter is called, like, Sorry, Karen, White Supremacy Looks Really Bad on You.
00:26:08.200And it's about, like, me kind of, like, trying to grapple with, like, my love for my family and talking about that defensiveness.
00:26:14.320And then, like, but, like, that doesn't, it takes a while for that to, like, move through someone.
00:26:19.100And some people, like, so, but I think the reason I bring that up in this context is, like, thank you.
00:26:24.440Like, thank you so much for being willing to have those conversations on TikTok.
00:26:27.760Because when people come in your comments, I'm, like, going to get emotional.
00:26:37.640But I also just think, like, I try to remind myself, like, to try to be patient as I've, after I've, like, cussed somebody out and blocked them and told them to, like, go fist themselves in hell.
00:26:45.060Like, you fucking transphobe, you know?
00:27:14.040You're going to delete the comment for a second.
00:27:16.160Because, and actually, like, there has been times where Alok will, like, screenshot me a response that I was going to be, like, girl, you need to delete this shit right now.
00:27:22.520Like, you, like, you got to tone it back.
00:29:09.420I think both approaches are necessary, especially because with my platform, I feel like anyone that doesn't identify as, like, a cis hitman who loves me and is part of my community, I've told many people, including the people that bought my book, I was telling them, I think what they love about me other than just me being silly and telling people to suck my dick, is that they also love that I validate them, not just in their, you know, sadness or their frustration, but I validate them in their anger.
00:29:36.100And I tell people, you're allowed to be mad.
00:29:38.420Like, if you want to be angry, if you want to be mad, if you want to handle bigotry with biting remarks and if you want to bite back and if you want to stand up for yourself, you can.
00:29:49.480And if you don't want to do it, send it to me and I'll fucking do it.
00:29:52.000So I tell people all the time, I validate them in their anger because anger is a human emotion that we are all entitled to.
00:29:57.820And just because someone else would handle it a different way, it doesn't mean that I have to handle it that way.
00:30:02.620And I also have talked about before with criticism, especially from white, cis-hit white men, is that they like to tell me, like, well, I just feel like you could handle it better or you should take the high road.
00:30:12.060And I think I always tell them, first of all, you have more problem with how I responded to bigotry than you do with the bigotry itself, which makes no sense.
00:30:19.900At the same time, I say the fact that you expect me to respond to it with kindness and grace and empathy is an entitlement.
00:30:29.020And that is also a byproduct of patriarchy and white supremacy because I'm not only a woman, but I'm also I don't identify just as a woman, but I'm also a brown woman and I'm also not a thin woman.
00:30:37.680And so at the same time, you expect me to even at the the worst, most like violent and vitriolic comments, you still expect me to handle it with grace and empathy.
00:30:49.380And that's because you feel entitled to that part of women all the time.
00:30:53.160You feel entitled to women in general, but especially their emotions and how they handle you, which in most cases they do handle you with empathy and kindness because that's what they've been conditioned to do their entire lives.
00:31:07.680I'm having like dueling intrusive thoughts right now.
00:31:38.640But I so but like when I hear people who are younger than me speaking in ways that I feel like are teaching me, opening me, I'm like, yes, like, yes.
00:31:49.120Then I feel like I'm I feel like this hope.
00:31:51.320But then I like think about like there's all these like other people who are like our age box, younger age boxes who are like literally like the polar opposite.
00:33:04.980So this is like I'm trying to like not do it more now because it's actually like selfish and self-preservation because it's my nervous system.
00:33:17.940And then I feel like embarrassed like two hours later because like I was like, you know, I said that I was going to like cut your mom's arm off and fucking fist you with it or whatever, you know.
00:33:41.960And I've also like I've learned on the podcast, like when you have like memories, whether they're good or bad, but like especially with comments, like your brain makes these like memories.
00:33:48.920And there's like literally proteins on the neurons of your like in the brain.
00:33:53.300And so like when you have like a bad memory that you remember, even just thinking about it, your body will start to feel the feelings that it felt when you experience the thing.
00:34:03.120And so it's like the more times that I go back and I keep I call it like a cornrow like in my brain because I come from a fucking cornfield.
00:34:09.080But it's like your pathway or whatever like that like habit is in your brain.
00:34:12.800So I just like getting into it with them on those comments.
00:34:14.980Yeah, just resurfaces every negative feeling force.
00:34:18.140And I also think generally it's like veering back to the political.
00:34:20.880I have been thinking a lot this year, like going into an election year.
00:34:54.460Or they – I also think that like there is some economics like some people I think just like literally can't afford to – but also pre-vote.
00:35:48.040I've talked about that before too because I've had people ask like, oh, can – or would you ever have someone like this on the podcast?
00:35:55.300And it's someone who's like violently bigoted.
00:35:56.800And I always say no and then, you know, men because their brains are this big, they'll be like, oh, well, that's just because you're afraid.
00:36:10.120At the same time, I tell them like my platform and my podcast is not a space to platform your rhetoric and your hate.
00:36:17.000And that's not someone I'm going to convince because believe it or not, someone who's violently misogynistic is not going to hear me when I say that you shouldn't treat women like that because that's bad.
00:36:27.600They're not even going to hear that very foundational, like superficial understanding of why bigotry is harmful and violent.
00:36:36.960They just want to speak into a bigger microphone.
00:36:38.900And so my show is an opportunity for them to do that.
00:36:42.100And I'm not giving them an opportunity.
00:36:43.340I don't know if you could tell by anything about my platform, but I don't give men opportunities to do shit, especially not with my stuff.
00:36:49.180So I even tell them, I'm like, if you want to platform your bigotry and you want to shout into a bigger microphone, get your own fucking show is what I always tell them because I got mine.
00:36:57.780So I know my thing is like I run my platform as far as like when it comes to dealing with bigotry, I don't convince you.
00:41:24.760But like the kind of shit compliment sandwich.
00:41:26.760But like it basically just validated me and everything I've already believed about myself, which is like my content is literally not for them, which is another problem they have with me.
00:41:35.280It's just like they struggle with the idea that not everything in this world is catered towards them.
00:41:41.000And so I've always said like, if we're looking at what I'm actually trying to do, I'm not trying to like convince you or change you.
00:41:52.360It's almost like everyone's been put to sleep and I'm just waking them up and telling them like it doesn't have to be this way if you don't want it to be that way.
00:41:58.760So like it even when it ties to my book, I'm like, it's not for men.
00:42:02.300It's about de-centering men entirely, removing them entirely from your thought processes.
00:42:06.780Like once you unpack your internalized misogyny, you let go of so many different internalized biases.
00:42:10.900How attached are you to living in California?
00:42:12.820Could I get you to come to Texas in front of her office?
00:43:00.460I think that people like my like my platform and people like you are so important to have, especially now with so much visibility that like people have on whether it's politics, anything serious or anything silly.
00:43:15.000Like they have people like us existing in this space, like able to like speak up for what we believe is right and stand for what we believe is true and important.
00:43:23.820And I feel like that's a big reason why I don't platform bigotry at all.
00:43:28.840Like I don't invite them on my show to debate.
00:43:48.860It's for everybody else, like everyone else who needs it, who needs empowerment, who needs strength, who needs uplifting.
00:43:55.100And I've told people before, too, that I feel like my ultimate goal at the end of the day would just be that they don't need me to do this forever.
00:44:03.980Like they know they have the same exact confidence and like level of strength that they believe I have and they don't.
00:44:10.660Because I get people like say all the time, I wish I had this kind of confidence.
00:45:30.100And then also, I think just my never ending fight against men who irritate me.
00:45:35.940I think all of that perfect storm, you know.
00:45:38.040I have to say, I've thought a few times, like, I feel like some, because I actually think I get this, too, with like more gays, not straight men, but or maybe questioning men.
00:45:48.360Sometimes I feel like people also, when you're really outspoken, and then they're also attracted to you for some reason.