The Critical Compass Podcast - Alberta Independence： Stigma, History & Freedom with Michael Wagner & Kathy Flett

00:00:00.000 like there's always been a stigma like I mean it was less common than back in those days like it

00:00:06.760 was is a brand new idea back then like no one had really thought of it seriously until the 70s and

00:00:11.320 the 80s so you're very much minority it was like and the word separatist course has stigma with it

00:00:15.680 still of course so to just to identify with that word I mean some people today don't even want me

00:00:19.900 to use that word still but but I've been using that word for decades so I still will so it was

00:00:23.880 very much a stigma and like compared to right now like there's more independent supporters now than

00:00:28.060 ever in in alberta so there's in certain communities that's there's no stigma i don't think

00:00:33.000 at all like so in that sense it's more comfortable to be an independent supporter now except for in

00:00:37.800 the sense like you're talking about people who don't want their names you know put it down

00:00:40.400 and and what i want to say about that is that shows how canada has changed like it was never

00:00:45.360 like that the canada that i was born and raised in was not like that you wouldn't have to be afraid

00:00:48.820 of putting your name on something but that just shows what the liberals have done to this country

00:00:52.260 it just shows more why we need to get out how can we have freedom if people won't even put their

00:00:56.720 names down for what they support you know what I mean like that's not freedom there's some kind

00:01:00.020 of fear there that's been generated by the government the government has made people

00:01:04.180 afraid to stand for what they believe and speak what they believe that's not a free country in

00:01:08.460 my view and I think that's just one more argument why we need to become independent so we can have

00:01:12.700 that freedom again that we had before that's it's it is a great argument because and it and it's

00:01:17.780 such an important distinction to note that this is something that is very manufactured by by

00:01:23.180 government by media working together because you know like we talk about you know we we see this

00:01:28.480 in our neighborhoods like we if you have a like I have I was talking with uh our friend of the

00:01:33.740 channel off screen uh about our our neighborhood how we have uh we're sort of outnumbered uh from

00:01:39.100 Alberta um lawn science to forever Canadian lawn science but these are neighbors that we like and

00:01:44.380 we get along with and you know there's no like you you run across them you get in the mail or on

00:01:48.740 or mowing their lawn or whatever like this is not a what you see online is not um it's not

00:01:55.380 representative of reality right and to make it seem that way is it's so so dark it's not nice

00:02:01.500 it's not good and and to make it seem like it's a uh a much more personal and much more vitriolic

00:02:07.300 sentiment like this is you know we have very reasonable arguments i think and i think if

00:02:11.900 more people were uh open to at least having a discussion about it rather than i think the trick

00:02:17.380 that the government and the media likes to play is

00:02:20.300 they say that even if you engage in discussion about it,

00:02:23.720 you know, you're giving it air or you're giving it.

00:02:26.560 But that's exactly how you think, you know,

00:02:28.860 this is a very, you think by talking and by discussing

00:02:31.920 and by being challenged in your ideas.

00:02:33.980 And so it's ironic though,

00:02:36.860 because Forever Canada appears to be creating a culture

00:02:42.580 of encouraging this, of fomenting this kind of thing.

00:02:46.160 this kind of thing where you know you need to attack them or you need to like do all this stuff

00:02:50.900 to a separatist come up with names and call them all that stuff but the reality is all that does

00:02:56.640 is makes it so you guys start to look more and more like the crazy ones so of course you're

00:03:02.220 going to attract more crazy people to your side but then over time the more normal people are

00:03:06.320 going to reject it and so i kind of find it a little bit serving us that they're doing that

00:03:12.380 that thomas lukazic has never come out once to denounce any of the violence done against any of

00:03:17.020 our albert independent supporters he's never come out once to even say stop harassing or doing all

00:03:22.300 this he's always silent on that and then in their private groups because i'm in your private groups

00:03:26.460 guys i'm in all of them i see what you guys post i thought you got booted out of one i got put out

00:03:32.940 of one because i opened my mouth but yeah i've got alternative ways to stay in that one well it's

00:03:38.140 funny you say that actually because we uh on the show james and i i think james came up with this

00:03:42.940 term but i'll take credit for it because he's not here um he's behind the camera maple syrup

00:03:48.300 flavored nationalism uh-huh which is what a lot of this boils down to you know it's like there's

00:03:52.780 people are nostalgic for a and you know what i i try to give them the benefit of the doubt

00:03:58.140 that what they are forever canadians is nostalgic for a canada that they remember

00:04:03.980 but that no longer exists.

00:04:05.540 That's what it is.

00:04:06.300 Yeah.

00:04:06.640 Maybe you guys can speak on that.

00:04:08.160 That's what it is.

00:04:08.860 Well, I can speak to that.

00:04:10.180 I can give you three stories in two.

00:04:13.300 The last two home meetings we've had,

00:04:16.400 the smaller meetings that we've had,

00:04:18.160 unbeknownst to me,

00:04:19.720 there were some people there who were not,

00:04:22.040 I wasn't preaching to the choir.

00:04:23.920 They came and when one came kicking and screaming,

00:04:27.120 he said, fine, if you will shut up

00:04:28.500 and stop talking to me about this,

00:04:29.760 I will go and hear what Kathy has to say.

00:04:31.320 And then I don't want to hear a word about it, right?

00:04:32.920 left going, oh my gosh, I had no idea. I had no idea, right? And then the second meeting,

00:04:40.420 same thing happened, not kicking and screaming, but just really curious, like, what is it? And,

00:04:44.520 you know, it's going to be after eight o'clock. Is she actually going to grow six heads? Like,

00:04:47.360 what's going to happen here? Because they told all sorts of things about us.

00:04:51.200 So there's that that happens. And then there's the everyday conversations that we have the

00:04:57.300 opportunity to do this with. And there was one that was about a month ago now. And it was somebody

00:05:03.700 that I know, don't know very well, somebody that I know. And it came out, the cat was out of the bag

00:05:09.060 that I was a separatist. And she was horrified by that. And she said, you know what, my kids,

00:05:13.880 my whole family is all for this, but I'm just not. And so we had this back and forth conversation.

00:05:18.840 And she admitted, like, my kids and my grandkids are never going to buy a house. I know that.

00:05:23.140 But I just can't give up this Canada and my sovereignty and on and on and on.

00:05:27.020 I said, so you admit that the Canada that you lived in and were successful in and had every opportunity to achieve everything, every goal you ever set for yourself doesn't exist anymore?

00:05:40.580 And she said, oh, no, I know that it doesn't.

00:05:42.780 I said, then why would you vote for your next generations to stay in that?

00:05:47.700 And she went, oh, my gosh, I never thought of it that way.

00:05:52.740 Never thought of it that way, right?

00:05:54.380 She was holding on to this nostalgia.

00:05:56.720 And it's those one-on-one conversations.

00:05:58.840 That's why rallies are great.

00:06:00.200 They have their place, but it's that one-on-one that's going to get this done.

00:06:04.420 And Michael, you have some books here.

00:06:07.060 Maybe in, and I'm sure you've talked about this in one of your books,

00:06:10.600 but kind of chronicling maybe the shift as Alberta has maybe not shifted away from Canada,

00:06:17.780 but as how Canada has shifted away from Alberta.

00:06:21.000 And maybe you talk about how Alberta is a throwback to what Canada used to be or reminiscent of that in some way.

00:06:29.840 Can you speak to that a little bit from what you've written?

00:06:32.760 Yeah, not quite exactly what you're saying, but related to the previous discussion is in this particular book here, Alberta, Separatism, and then now.

00:06:39.320 I wrote this book. It came out in 2009.

00:06:41.360 So it's a history of the origins and the early years of the Alberta independence movement up until 2008.

00:06:46.600 But one of the key people who I quote in here is Ted Byfield with Alberta Report magazine.

00:06:51.620 And for those who are younger, you might not remember Alberta Report magazine, but it went from 1973 to 2003.

00:06:56.040 It was a very, very influential magazine in Alberta and in Western Canada generally.

00:07:00.420 I mean, it was part of the effort to create the Reform Party.

00:07:02.580 I mean, the influence of Alberta Report magazine was key in the creation of the Reform Party.

00:07:07.260 But in here, I talk about it was Ted Byfield who in 1980 already was writing about the difference between old Canada and new Canada

00:07:14.400 because it was Pierre Trudeau who brought in the new Canada.

00:07:17.000 Pierre Trudeau brought in a different constitution.

00:07:19.440 And that was, the constitution is the foundational document of a country.

00:07:22.840 When you change the constitution, you change the country.

00:07:25.820 People need to understand that.

00:07:27.320 So in 1982, Pierre Trudeau was fundamentally changing Canada

00:07:30.420 and he knew it and that's what he wanted to do.

00:07:32.460 And Ted Byfield will go into details about how Canada was different.

00:07:35.440 Like he grew up in, he was originally from Toronto

00:07:37.260 and he came out to Alberta, became an Alberta patriot.

00:07:39.900 I mean, a lot of people from Alberta move here and become Alberta patriots.

00:07:42.800 And like when he was growing up,

00:07:44.560 you know, we had a different flag

00:07:45.420 and that was changed by the Liberals in the 1960s.

00:07:47.820 And actually the change in the flag

00:07:49.200 was representative of the kind of change

00:07:50.980 they were introducing to the country in general, right?

00:07:52.920 So anyway, in that book, I talk,

00:07:54.980 I'm quoting from Ted Byfield,

00:07:56.140 how he talks about and describes

00:07:57.440 the change from old Canada to new Canada.

00:08:00.660 And it was the old Canada he grew up in.

00:08:02.000 It was the Canada he loved and was loyal to.

00:08:04.460 And he did not feel loyal to the new Canada

00:08:06.400 that Pierre Trudeau was introducing to us.

00:08:08.240 So that's part of what that book is about

00:08:10.280 because in those early years,

00:08:11.760 there was that cultural issue to the independence movement, because people realized our country was

00:08:17.680 changing fundamentally, and they wanted to stick with the older Canada. And so there was a lot of

00:08:22.260 even meetings I went to, I think there were like World War Two veterans there, you know, who were

00:08:26.140 for the Alberta side, you know, because they saw the country changing drastically, and they didn't

00:08:30.200 like what they saw. So that book talks a bit about that, because those were some of the original

00:08:33.560 emphases and themes of the independence movement back in those days. So then in the second book,

00:08:39.640 no other options, self-determination for Alberta. I do talk a lot about how Ted Byfield talks about

00:08:43.900 Alberta's cultural identity. Now, Alberta's identity isn't different from the rest of Canada

00:08:49.260 the way Quebec's is. Quebec, they have a different language and a different history and stuff.

00:08:52.460 So Alberta is not distinctive from Canada the way Quebec is, but it still has its own distinctive

00:08:56.680 history. We had way more American immigration in those early years, which kind of set us apart from

00:09:01.800 the rest of the country. And there were other factors too. And so Ted Byfield talked about 1.00

00:09:05.720 those things about Alberta's cultural identity. And that's an important part if we're going to

00:09:10.360 become our own country. So we have to think of ourselves as Albertans, you know, as that would

00:09:15.180 be our cultural identity and our political identity. And so that's kind of one of the

00:09:19.500 themes that's in there. But those are the kinds of things, though, like that Ted Byfield talked

00:09:23.100 about that were so important for Albertans today to understand about how we're different and how

00:09:27.580 we are more like the old Canada than the Canada and the rest of the country.

00:09:32.120 But even in terms of our history, we don't exactly have the same history that we're getting

00:09:35.640 painted with all the time like alberta was not essentially set up initially by canada it was

00:09:43.120 roomford's land we were a completely different colony that had nothing to do with canada

00:09:47.260 and it wasn't until finally the british crown forced the sale of it to canada that we even

00:09:53.140 became a part of it and then we were treated like a colony for the first 40 years a colony of another

00:09:57.640 country essentially so we were settled by a different very different group of people and

00:10:01.980 even when we became part of canada for a long time only the rejects were sent out here if you 0.83

00:10:08.220 were a dirty eastern european or like a lot of our ancestors were you weren't allowed to settle 0.89

00:10:13.660 in upper canada in ontario or quebec no you had to go out to the prairies because oh yeah because 0.91

00:10:19.760 ukrainians are a lot of farmers and that's why like we've got a giant easter egg in bangerville

00:10:24.380 we have a huge uh like um estonian we have sausages in mundia we have all the rejects

00:10:31.500 were sent out here so we weren't even settled by the same people who were settled in ontario

00:10:36.060 actually that's quite an interesting point because when you compare the settlement of

00:10:39.340 the canadian west with the american west like generally the american west kind of was gradually

00:10:43.020 moving west and people would come in immigrants would come into eastern united states become

00:10:47.100 acculturated as americans and then move west whereas like what you're discussing what is true

00:10:51.260 what truly happened is after the prairies were attached to canada it was like there were very

00:10:56.140 few people out here and they needed to bring in people to create an agricultural economy so

00:11:00.460 at first there was opposition to bringing in eastern europeans like you mentioned because 0.97

00:11:05.020 some of the you know the wasp people on ontario didn't want those kind of people eventually got

00:11:08.620 an interior minister who went and advertised for people in eastern europe and they a whole flood

00:11:13.500 of them suddenly came to the prairies and they didn't go through eastern canada become like

00:11:18.380 geographically they did on the train or whatever but they didn't stay there and become canadianized

00:11:22.460 and then move out west they were plopped here as immigrants and they canadianized in the west

00:11:27.020 in a different experience from the people in Central Canada.

00:11:30.540 So what you're talking about is true that our experience as Westerners

00:11:33.860 here on the prairies, the way we developed a Canadian identity

00:11:36.760 was different from the historical experience of those in Central Canada.

00:11:40.720 And this is important to me.

00:11:41.860 My paternal ancestors came to the prairies in 1902.

00:11:45.140 And so this is kind of like our, and probably some of the others here,

00:11:47.600 I'm sure people in the audience,

00:11:49.200 their ancestors came early in that time period to the prairies.

00:11:53.040 And we're descendants of that.

00:11:53.920 we're the we're reaping the fruit of their efforts to get us here you know but so exactly

00:11:58.220 what you're saying was exactly true and like a lot of it as well was just the straight up geography

00:12:02.340 like the united states it was just like gradually like a guy would move in just a little further

00:12:07.520 away than the last guy just a little further away plus we had the canadian shield exactly it

00:12:11.520 literally divided us up and so it's no surprise that when you know they're looking at it they're

00:12:17.280 like oh convenient we can just send them so far away that we don't even have to think about them

00:12:21.720 and that's what happened and we just became a resource colony they sent so many us uh people

00:12:26.840 out here a lot of them did really well a lot of them died and they didn't care they just took in

00:12:32.080 the money from all the agricultural sales that they got over time and sorry please go ahead i was

00:12:36.960 gonna add one more way in which we were different from the rest of canada is when you look at our

00:12:40.700 provincial political history we would form alternative political parties so you know the

00:12:45.240 original party was liberal party but in 1921 the united farmers of alberta became our government

00:12:49.560 United Farmers of Alberta from 1921 to 1935.

00:12:52.220 And in 1935, it's the Social Credit Party of Alberta up until 1971.

00:12:56.320 Those are parties that weren't in other provinces, you know, in terms of forming government.

00:12:59.600 I mean, eventually in BC, there was a Social Credit Party that kind of keyed off Alberta,

00:13:03.120 but it was different in its own way.

00:13:04.200 But Alberta was very distinct from the rest of the country in terms of our voting trends.

00:13:07.800 And federally as well.

00:13:08.800 We voted federally for the Social Credit Party for many years,

00:13:11.700 and previous to that, the Progressive Party of Canada.

00:13:14.160 So when you look just at our voting history, you can see how different we are from the other provinces.

00:13:18.160 But everything you guys say is true. I mean, one of the quotes that I give in every presentation

00:13:23.440 that I do is the Sir Clifford Zipton quote, right? Where every Canadian, every patriotic Canadian

00:13:31.360 is going to want all the trade from the prairie to go to the East to enrich them.

00:13:35.440 That's the shortened version of it. But that's why we were created, was so that all of our bounty,

00:13:41.120 all the fruits of our labor could go to the East. That was the plan. And here we are all these years

00:13:47.120 later and it's no different. But what's neat to me is despite that, and people still came here

00:13:52.640 and a hardy bunch of people, right? Like you go way up North and it's very hardy. Nobody told

00:13:57.620 them about the snakes in the South and the minus Holy Moly in the North, right? They just showed 0.99

00:14:01.560 up and did what they could with what they had. And when you dig into the history books, the few

00:14:07.960 that there are, there's stories of the women being home alone with the kids while the men went to go

00:14:14.780 and work to try and support them. And they didn't speak the same language as their neighbor,

00:14:20.140 but they would still go and have Sunday dinner just so they were around people.

00:14:27.320 Like that's what this province was built on. And that's why when you go to any, pick any small

00:14:32.460 community, pick anyone. And what do you see first? You see an old church. You see an old church that's

00:14:38.240 probably dilapidated now, but that was the first building that was built. The second building that

00:14:43.900 was built was the school, because everybody appreciated how important education was.

00:14:48.840 And so then there was the church, there was the school, and if it was a bigger community,

00:14:52.300 the next thing they would build is a community hall. And you go to all these little towns,

00:14:56.720 and there's community halls. You go to the bigger centers, there's the German community hall,

00:15:00.520 the Ukrainian community hall, the Dutch community hall, exactly what you were talking about, right?

00:15:04.100 All these people came together, and they made it work. That's what this province was built on.

00:15:09.360 And the three words that Angela and I have been hanging on to in this campaign is family, community, sovereignty.

00:15:16.620 You cannot have the first two without the last one.

00:15:20.460 And that's what they eroded.

00:15:22.700 They purposely eroded the family, which then eroded the community.

00:15:27.440 And now they're trying to take our sovereignty.

00:15:29.200 And we just can't stand for it.

00:15:30.740 That's not what this province was built on.

00:15:33.040 No, it was not.

00:15:33.940 It was built on being a resource colony.

00:15:35.520 And speaking of resource colonies, really, you can view us today as your resource colony for albertatelethon.com, where our purpose is to direct funds to our six great TPAs.

00:15:49.100 You're good.

00:15:50.380 That was very smooth.

00:15:51.460 That was great.

00:15:51.940 The king of the segue.

00:15:52.460 That's great.

00:15:53.820 Amazing work, guys.

00:15:55.020 We really, really appreciate that.

00:15:57.320 You know, this is what we're here for.

00:15:58.360 If we're going to talk about high-minded things like sovereignty and where our future is going and how we can build something better than what we have currently for our children and our grandchildren, the fact is that these things take money.

00:16:15.920 And the people on the other side of this debate right now have seemingly unlimited money.

00:16:21.020 They have government money, in fact, and they have different reporting structures and rules surrounding their money than we do.

00:16:30.160 So let's make sure to do this right.

00:16:32.220 Remember that in order to donate to any of the TPAs, you have to be an Albertan citizen.

00:16:37.380 You have to, if you donate under $50, you don't need to provide information anywhere between $50 and $250.

00:16:46.100 You need to give some information.

00:16:47.640 Please fill out the information correctly so that you're not accidentally donating to Elections Alberta because they'll take those funds so, so easily.

00:16:55.760 I think it goes right to the government.

00:16:56.860 I think it goes right to general revenue.

00:16:58.320 Yeah.

00:16:58.680 Yeah.

00:16:59.660 And you can donate up to $5,000 in any one election cycle, I think is the rule.

00:17:17.640 You

The Critical Compass Podcast - July 27, 2026

Alberta Independence： Stigma, History & Freedom with Michael Wagner & Kathy Flett

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