The Critical Compass Podcast - Independence Debate： Keith Wilson vs Bill Jones ｜ Does Alberta Need Canada？

00:00:00.000 okay so I've got five questions one and each question I will ask for the audience to respond

00:00:09.720 as well no I can't see you with all the lights so and I don't want to have an unruly discussion but

00:00:15.480 I will ask Keith I'll start with Keith I'll go to Bill and then I'll ask the audience to answer

00:00:20.400 the question as well and that's in the interest of free speech and making sure that we are in

00:00:25.080 fact ready to listen and that one of the issues we have in Canada is the US is

00:00:30.420 very arrogant very big and often very influential over our thinking and are

00:00:35.580 doing Canadians are really good at ready aim did I make my point that's our

00:00:44.200 dilemma is we're great thinkers we're great preparers are great cogitators

00:00:48.060 great brains great universities we're not particularly strong on action and I

00:00:52.180 I am expecting a phone call, by the way, before we break that'll bring something to the table that I think you'll all appreciate.

00:00:58.240 But I'll hold on to that and hopefully not interfere with your appetite.

00:01:02.420 So my first question to you, Keith, is, is Alberta's dissatisfaction primarily about federal policies, fiscal arrangements, inadequate political influence, or a deeper incompatibility with the rest of Canada?

00:01:16.300 What could independence achieve that reform cannot?

00:01:22.180 Well, independence is reform.

00:01:26.240 That's it?

00:01:27.300 No, just wanted to...

00:01:28.720 I mean, you made some structural points.

00:01:31.260 Just wanted to throw you on your heels to get this day going.

00:01:35.100 Just came out of this three-way debate yesterday

00:01:37.560 where it was two against one at the University of Alberta,

00:01:40.160 so I'm a little defensive today, so I'll try and be friendly.

00:01:44.140 But great question.

00:01:46.800 A lot there.

00:01:47.460 what my view is that um a number of things one is that the the structure of our constitution

00:01:59.360 our confederation was defective from the outset and it's only become more manifest with time

00:02:05.220 it made sense and its faults weren't fully revealed when alberta initially was a province

00:02:13.860 in 1905 and in the early years when we were heavily dependent upon the federal government

00:02:19.300 and we couldn't do things on our own. But once we discovered our oil and our worth and our value

00:02:25.500 and our population grew, our institutions grew, our universities, our infrastructure,

00:02:31.380 our sophistication, we've outgrown the need to have Ottawa tell us how to do things.

00:02:39.720 there's no reason for it anymore and because we have one house of commons that makes all the

00:02:49.160 decisions in areas of federal jurisdiction and for the reasons i mentioned earlier whereby

00:02:55.500 the population skew is to ontario and quebec and will always be that way they will always be the

00:03:02.280 ones telling alberta what we can and can't do there was a political scientist that commented

00:03:07.280 and studied this phenomena around the world where you have a concentration of people within a

00:03:13.940 country in one place that can tell the periphery what to do and what not to do and there tends to

00:03:20.000 be a historical pattern of exploitation where they treat that area as a colony take things from it

00:03:27.060 and rule over it and that's essentially what we have here in Alberta today with our relationship

00:03:32.340 with ottawa and my view is it doesn't need to be that way we can reform our constitutional

00:03:38.960 relationship so that we're electing the officials our politicians here and and on the full range of

00:03:48.760 topics instead of having some of the topics and the powers in ottawa so but you're taking it to

00:03:55.080 the extreme of separation and saying that that power will reside within a nation yes but why

00:04:00.620 not i didn't say yes or no i'm just no no that's that's fair fair enough fair enough my apologies

00:04:04.940 um my wife told me i had to be nicer today than i was last night so i'm gonna try really hard

00:04:10.920 because she's in the audience and i don't want to get in trouble the point that i hear you making

00:04:14.140 is we will increase our sovereignty the capacity yeah well what reason you know i would turn it

00:04:19.040 around it's a great point is what good reason is there you know people will often say um if

00:04:25.860 Alberta were a country today and Ottawa came and said, hey, would you join Canada? We're going to

00:04:34.000 take all these powers, these specific powers from you, and you're going to send additional $20 to

00:04:39.720 $30 billion a year. Hey, we're not going to say, hey, where can we sign? Okay, so we're pursuing

00:04:46.340 increased independence to affect the decisions that are affecting us. Yeah, and redefining our

00:04:52.140 relationship with the rest of Canada I'm gonna I'm gonna pose a structural

00:04:55.440 option to you in a minute but sure I'm gonna turn to Bill Bill's position I

00:04:58.920 won't say sitting on the fence we talked about that he doesn't sit on the fence

00:05:02.400 but he's of the view that we need to prepare whether we leave or whether we

00:05:06.340 stay there are things that Alberta needs to do in order to increase its

00:05:10.080 sovereignty as well so tell us a little bit of what the preparations and I know

00:05:13.620 you've written a document on preparing so there may be some overlap here yeah

00:05:18.420 Thank you. I just want to go to Keith's point there about the formation of this country.

00:05:24.900 It's important. I use a little analogy. Earth gets together and says, you know, we need to go to the

00:05:30.040 moon and take its resources and pull it back to Earth for the earthlings to use for their prosperity.

00:05:35.840 And that goes on for about 100 years. And we send people up there and they mine. And 100 years later, 0.99

00:05:41.120 the moonlings say, why are we doing that? Why are we shipping everything back to Earth? 0.94

00:05:45.500 and the earthlings will say that to them that's why we sent you and that's

00:05:50.540 Western Canada if you read the charges to the negotiation for the treaties with

00:05:56.140 the First Nations it is explicit there go to the West get the treaty so the

00:06:02.900 resources are used by Canada and remember that Canada was upper and lower Canada

00:06:07.760 that's the purpose we were to be a colony the resources were to go east so

00:06:14.240 when we step up today and say we really don't like the deal you talk to people

00:06:18.320 in Toronto and they say we'll just move to Toronto and that's the thing here

00:06:23.300 when we talk about the Canada West relationship we're those moonlings and

00:06:28.880 saying why the earth is saying that was your purpose so we have to keep that in

00:06:33.800 mind when we're talking to Ottawa their mindset is completely different and the

00:06:37.760 other thing about the creation of the Constitution we have to remember the

00:06:41.300 plains of Abraham. The British beat the French, but the French outnumbered them hugely. And so

00:06:48.540 the only way they caught the way the country could be peaceful is they gave a lot of power to the

00:06:53.600 French, their own laws, their own language, their own culture. And that kept the peace of Canada

00:06:59.720 for 150 years instead of constant civil war. So we can't go back and say the creation of Canada

00:07:05.560 as flawed no it had trade-offs and the trade-offs was peace and a lot of power

00:07:11.140 to a province and that's what we're fighting here and that's where I agree

00:07:15.460 with Keith absolutely needs to be changed there's no reason it can't be changed

00:07:20.060 it was once implemented now it can be altered the only question is is the

00:07:26.180 Eastern Bloc willing to release political power with the result that the

00:07:31.960 money will go lower. Now, if you're Canada, my deal to you is, hey, I need more power so I can

00:07:38.320 send you less money. Are you going to even show up at the table? You're going to be happy with

00:07:42.580 the status quo and you control it. So that's the real fight here. And this is where the movement

00:07:48.280 needs to move to, is to the leverage. Unless there's a leverage that it costs more to Canada

00:07:55.740 for Alberta to leave, then to stay in the status quo, then they'll show up with the table with a

00:08:02.900 serious deal. And that's my point there. So where you both agree, and I haven't talked to you about

00:08:08.200 this, Keith, and not at great length with you, Bill, is you're frustrated to the point that you

00:08:12.960 don't believe that leadership is adequate. We need structural change. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's

00:08:19.920 a very important point, because that's ultimately the frustration. There are those that are watching

00:08:24.420 canada today and the handshakes and the agreements that are being signed in the mous that seem to be

00:08:29.360 endless uh that somehow things are getting better and that they're going to be getting we have to

00:08:34.460 discuss what that changes and here's the other problem we have you know uh oh we're getting

00:08:40.020 you pipelines so you have to be happy well the problem is there is a flip of a hand says no you

00:08:45.180 don't and then a flip of a hand that says yes you do okay abhorrents are figuring this out

00:08:49.980 they're saying who's running the hand they're starting to look at the arm and they're saying

00:08:54.000 that arm is not ours but the flip of the hand it's arbitrary and that's what Albertans are

00:08:59.620 getting tired of. You want to add anything there? Well this is one of my points about

00:09:03.520 where I disagree with Premier Smith and some others is they're saying well look at the pipeline

00:09:09.060 deal and I there's lots of really bad things about the pipeline deal and I'll just ignore that just

00:09:14.000 assume it's all in all a good deal which I don't think it is but just assume that

00:09:17.140 is we had the National Energy Program under Pierre Elliott Trudeau,

00:09:24.220 and then we had a period of improvement,

00:09:28.400 and we sent conservatives, we had the Reform Party,

00:09:31.100 and then the realignment of conservatives, and we had Harper and others.

00:09:35.360 But then we got the National Energy Program 2.0 with Justin Trudeau in 2015.

00:09:41.320 and you know it's it's it's like having this um spouse that's violent and you have no idea when

00:09:51.720 they're going to go off right like what as i've said recently in some interviews uh at in two you

00:10:00.320 know three or four months from now you could have the quebec caucus of the liberal party

00:10:05.500 change its mind and say, no, the tar sands must stay in the ground. And there would be nothing

00:10:13.900 we can do about it here in Alberta. And to me, that's unacceptable. How long are we going to

00:10:19.160 wait until we have yet another ridiculous policy imposed on us that's harmful? And we have 0.92

00:10:24.740 lingering policies that continue to be harmful and affect the affordability crisis for

00:10:29.880 all of us, and particularly the younger generation related to deficits and so on.

00:10:34.340 So my point is that even if one were to believe that it's true that things are getting slightly better now, the overall arrangement is still bad.

00:10:45.200 I agree.

00:10:46.160 What's particularly interesting is we express our frustrations typically around energy policy for good reasons.

00:10:52.440 But other provinces are frustrated with Ottawa as well.

00:10:56.460 And we don't get a lot of speech from them.

00:10:59.680 Alberta seems to have as a feature, as a character,

00:11:02.640 that we're willing to speak up.

00:11:05.120 I can recall my wife was the registrar of the College of Psychologists,

00:11:08.520 and she would go into discussions at Ottawa, as I did, going into Toronto.

00:11:13.360 And Alberta was always viewed as outspoken.

00:11:16.400 Is that a strength?

00:11:18.140 It is, but it's a fact.

00:11:20.400 We don't have a unity of Canadian culture.

00:11:23.860 we have the loyalists out east including the maritimes and british columbia it's in the name

00:11:33.240 loyalists on the west coast in between the prairies and both sides of this nation were

00:11:40.880 developed differently bc was there as a british colony out on the coast and you had the east and

00:11:48.300 the maritimes okay loyalists and what the loyalists suffer and this is what we're seeing

00:11:54.280 with the trade problem is eastern canada people canadians died in the united states americans

00:12:02.920 died in canada in war and canada has always looked upon eastern canada has always looked upon the

00:12:11.000 united states suspiciously because that war trauma still resonates out there okay that's why the

00:12:18.760 aggression of carny okay west the west relationship with the united states is built on trade

00:12:27.980 mutual relationships the west has never had a war with the united states and it won't and so our

00:12:36.920 Your relationship with the United States on the prairies is incredibly different than eastern Canada.

00:12:43.840 And there's your difference.

00:12:45.620 We have a culture clash.

00:12:46.860 We have a culture clash.

00:12:48.000 You want to add anything there?

00:12:48.760 Yeah, that's a great question. 0.99

00:12:50.120 So why is Alberta complaining?

00:12:53.480 So I've spoken.

00:12:54.500 The canary in the mine, really.

00:12:56.020 Sure.

00:12:56.700 But there's two really good reasons for it.

00:12:59.060 first of all is the laws and policies that have been egregious target us they

00:13:07.940 there is if the true concern is about ocean spills why is there not an East

00:13:15.320 Coast tanker ban there's a West Coast tanker ban that's designed to block

00:13:21.540 Alberta oil full stop and and the the whole net zero stuff if you really get

00:13:32.280 into some of the emissions rules and so on they were framed around a recognition

00:13:38.060 that so many other parts of the country you know what's a major source of

00:13:43.260 electricity in Quebec hydro what's a major source of electricity in Manitoba

00:13:49.720 Hydro.

00:13:50.480 What's a major source of electricity in British Columbia?

00:13:53.620 Hydro.

00:13:54.360 These laws were targeted at Alberta.

00:13:56.500 And the final point is, the reason why we're more grumpy, if I could put it that way, or outspoken, is we're the ones paying the bill.

00:14:06.340 We're the ones paying the bill.

00:14:08.580 If I cater an event and I'm paying for it and you're sitting at the table and the food is cold, you're probably going to eat it.

00:14:16.460 I'm going to go have a word with the people in the back.

00:14:19.200 because I'm the one paying the bill. 1.00

00:14:21.660 Alberta is a superpower.

00:14:24.140 We are carrying the country.

00:14:26.240 We have, over the course of equalization,

00:14:28.460 sent over $600 billion to Ottawa that we've never got back.

00:14:39.440 One might draw the analogy, though, of a family.

00:14:42.420 We exist as a country.

00:14:43.860 Think of it as a family.

00:14:45.420 There are instances when one child needs more help than another.

00:14:48.420 Their equalization payment says we're trying to run a country in a fair manner.

00:14:52.180 But when you talk about hydroelectric being excluded from the equalization agreements,

00:14:57.560 if I think that's correct, then that's another element of unfairness.

00:15:01.360 Why is hydroelectric power?

00:15:02.660 Well, we don't need to get into it.

00:15:03.640 We know why.

00:15:04.320 We've already addressed that.

00:15:05.160 Okay.

00:15:05.520 I'm going to switch gears.

00:15:07.400 I like your family analogy, though.

00:15:09.240 I want to get the drunk, no good uncle, toxic guy out of the basement.

00:15:15.100 Yeah. 0.53

00:15:15.880 Good point.

00:15:16.760 so we know we've been watching statistics some of us are watching the polls ipsis poll in june

00:15:24.060 talked about about an 18 interested in separation are likely to vote that way 72 percent the other

00:15:29.960 way somehow or another we're not getting our message across what percentage it's a hard

00:15:35.320 number to grab but maybe we could talk about the referendum and that one particular vote on whether

00:15:40.240 or not we should begin to negotiate separation with ottawa what do we need to make a clear

00:15:45.900 statement ottawa of the level of frustration and the consequences uh bill you want to jump in with

00:15:51.100 a number or or address that that issue any number greater than zero it doesn't matter if the vote

00:15:58.220 goes yes or no and it will go stay in canada that's a fact but it is and i'll have to credit

00:16:05.500 this man right here keith wilson and this is one of the few things i mean it looks like we're

00:16:10.620 agreeing up here but there's fundamental underneath that we do disagree so we'll get there

00:16:15.420 but this i have to give kudos to to keith wilson and his team is it doesn't matter what that number

00:16:21.820 is is that he's building on this particular issue on on the referendum even though he's going to lose

00:16:31.180 because he's with all the work he's done and i've read his papers thank you very much for that

00:16:36.460 yeah the plan is as far as i can see and evaluate is solid and what he's doing with that is he's

00:16:44.220 moving the spotlight off the independence movement with all its chaos and the fun that's happening

00:16:50.540 and you know all the rallies and the flags and the yelling and screaming and he's turning the

00:16:54.780 spotlight toward canada because now he's got something he can actually put on the pay on the

00:16:59.900 table we'll still talk about that but he does have something he put on the table and it has to be

00:17:05.660 something that canada's got to respond to and he's moving that spotlight and that's what i think his

00:17:11.980 greatest strength and what he's capable of doing and my hat's off to you sir thank you very much

00:17:20.780 thank yous today are rare so that was very nice to see and anything you want to add there i mean

00:17:25.980 he's basically complimented the point that that you've been making and the contributions you're

00:17:29.740 making to canada by bringing this out into the open well you know uh two things one is

00:17:36.380 what bill's referring to is the incredible work of over 48 experts in alberta that volunteered

00:17:41.740 their time to prepare the Alberta Transition Council plan. You go to the albertatransitioncouncil.com

00:17:49.060 website and see the plans and we have the transition plan for how Alberta can move from

00:17:54.380 a province to a country, dealing with all the details as well as a costed plan as to

00:18:01.740 what it would cost to make that transition. And we didn't get into the payment terms as

00:18:07.620 to how many years we would expect the federal government to pay back the 600 billion dollars

00:18:13.980 we've sent but that's a topic for another day um and and so on so so look at that but

00:18:21.200 i think what's important you know one of the heated moments last night at the debate

00:18:27.480 was pretty remarkable was when um one of the speakers marie uh had said

00:18:36.620 we and and premier kenny foreign premier kenny reinforced it we you know this vote vote needs

00:18:43.300 to be decisive and we need to end this separatist talk we need to end the separatists we need to

00:18:49.380 end them it was like whoa i even asked her i i looked to the host i said are the mics hot she

00:18:56.160 said no i said are the cameras still on she said no and i turned to her and i said so ending me 0.50

00:19:03.040 does that involve killing me or just putting me in a camp like it was just troubling to me that

00:19:09.040 that she would say these things and what i said was to bill's point is that uh i said to the

00:19:17.400 audience i said if the green party only got 10 in the election does that mean we should end any

00:19:25.920 discussion about environmental protection policies if the new democratic party i said to the students

00:19:31.560 and the live cameras if the new democratic party only gets 20 vote in an election does that mean

00:19:38.280 we should end any discussion about organized labor and protecting worker rights so uh the genie's out

00:19:45.680 of the bottle so to separate to separate is a response to the ultimate of frustration we've had

00:19:53.840 and we're prepared to leave but there's a consequence there's a cost it's going

00:19:58.880 to take something to get from here to there you've developed a prepare plan

00:20:02.120 you've certainly thought about it what can you tell the audience the state

00:20:05.720 people as well as the people that want to go what can you tell about the costs

00:20:09.380 are going to be to get there not just dollars jobs confidence transition our

00:20:13.940 youth well I honestly believe it'd be the best money we've ever spent and it's

00:20:23.780 not clear to me you know objectively the analogy I use now that I finally come up with when I like

00:20:30.620 the three of us go for lunch okay and we we look at the menu and we're all going to spend $20 each

00:20:37.880 on lunch and before we order I put a hundred dollar bill on the table and then the bill comes

00:20:43.900 and you guys look at the bill and you say Keith where's your $20 right that's essentially when

00:20:50.260 you hear people say, oh, well, Alberta's per capita share of the debt. I'm like, we already

00:20:55.460 put 600 billion in. Are you kidding me? And I realize it'll be more complex. But what the

00:21:02.400 transition plan found is that most of the changes are administrative. So for example, the cats of

00:21:08.860 people at the airport that tell you to take your laptop out and put it in a bin, but don't put your

00:21:13.780 iPad in or unless it has a keyboard, you know, those guys. And oh my God, you got water. We got

00:21:19.540 a water over here everybody's like oh my god a water um so those guys uh they're actually

00:21:29.060 i thought they were federal government employees they're not not unhappy about this and just

00:21:33.500 describing what i found out they're actually paladin security guards with out of vancouver

00:21:38.500 that the company so the alberta government would go to palatin and say hey that contract you have

00:21:43.280 with the federal government to have that guy make sure i don't bring a water onto the plane

00:21:46.600 we want to assign that agreement we'll step in and honor it in the same terms

00:21:51.100 what's the most difficult cost what's the one we really have to be aware of

00:21:54.860 um the most difficult cost well i think the heaviest lift is going to be going to

00:22:02.160 through all of the different agreements and arrangements that have to be ratified

00:22:06.080 because we'd have to go to the united states and and ratify and develop a new trade agreement with

00:22:10.500 them it would take time but i don't think a tremendous amount of time um and uh

00:22:16.540 I think that in terms of line items, it would be military, for sure.

00:22:21.080 That would be one of the biggest ones.

00:22:23.340 But I honestly do believe, having looked as we have in this plan, at every single thing.

00:22:31.300 We'd have to ratify the Chicago Accord so we can still, WestJet can, you can still go on your Cancun vacation, all that kind of stuff.

00:22:37.880 So it's one of the things, I go through periods where I get very discouraged.

00:22:43.740 and what always brings me around on independence is by every objective measure my kids your kids

00:22:51.720 grandkids friends and neighbors will be better off in an independent Alberta and when I was getting

00:22:58.000 pessimistic about the transition plan I remember I had an epiphany one day and I went you know what

00:23:04.320 every single thing we found that needs to be addressed to do the transition is absolutely

00:23:10.140 doable, and most of them are super easy. It's just an administrative change, changing where the boss

00:23:17.480 is from Ottawa to Edmonton. You mentioned treaties. We have treaties with the indigenous population.

00:23:23.580 One of the differences between Canada and the United States is how we resolve the expansion

00:23:30.680 of our country through treaties rather than through violence and reservations. Bill, can we

00:23:36.240 get through this I mean I have as a question can Alberta legitimately 1.00

00:23:39.360 determine its future without first securing indigenous consent no those

00:23:44.520 treaties predate Alberta by a long margin and I know what Keith's argument

00:23:49.640 is well the government over top of those treaties has changed a couple of times

00:23:53.820 and the treaties remained and that's true but this is not the same this is a

00:23:59.640 an actual break with the constitutional authority over 150 years that remain consistent from the

00:24:08.560 beginning carrying the treaties. And I don't see how you can do that when Alberta independence

00:24:15.080 come. You're breaking from that chain constitutional change. So no. Can it be done? Absolutely.

00:24:24.400 Absolutely. But you have to engage the First Nations first. Now, the First Nations do not love Canada. That's a big mistake. They don't love Canada. They deal with them. And if the independence movement wants to move forward, they have to deal with them. But they're not. We're treating them in general, and I'm not saying necessarily Keith, treating them in general, it's a piece of paper that's transferred between one government and another. They aren't. 1.00

00:24:51.400 that's the missing engagement here and we've seen it come up with some of these

00:24:55.900 court cases that's what they're hearing we're just you're saying we're not a

00:25:00.520 transaction now is it partly on their side and not again I'm not speaking for

00:25:05.800 First Nations I don't pretend that this is my own sincere belief is there's a

00:25:12.580 part on them too they don't want to engage within Alberta because they don't

00:25:17.720 see anything and this is going to be my argument going forward. Keith has a beautiful blueprint

00:25:23.560 of a nice house that Albertans can move into. I look at and I say well looks pretty good and

00:25:29.000 then I look up and I just see a field of mud and dirt. I say where's the house? He says well we can

00:25:35.320 build it and not he's not necessarily saying it but a large part of the movement says and we can

00:25:40.680 move in tomorrow. I'm saying there's no way there's no roof there's no walls there's not even a

00:25:47.240 foundation and you're asking us to make a decision on middle of october that we can start negotiating

00:25:55.240 moving in and i don't see a house that's my problem is i don't see the evidence for albert

00:26:01.240 independence if we got it today we'd be a failed state for generations your great great grandchildren

00:26:07.560 will be still suffering it and that's the problem okay what's the first thing you would do keith

00:26:13.800 in order to address this to elevate the confidence of well only 18 percent or 23 cent want to go

00:26:20.280 there what would we put in place first well first of all we're not voting for independence on the

00:26:25.960 19th of october it's not on the ballot no sorry i don't accept that i don't accept that you're

00:26:33.000 voting for the negotiation of it absolutely that's a that's it is negotiation i think that's clear

00:26:40.640 The audience is right.

00:26:42.600 To start the negotiation.

00:26:43.880 No, no, no, no, that's not true.

00:26:46.560 Just a second, respond.

00:26:49.840 To be precise, and I mean, I would agree with you that my hope is there is a negotiation arising from it.

00:26:56.600 That's where the leverage concept comes in.

00:26:58.580 But the question is, status quo, stay, or the Alberta government commenced the process to schedule a referendum on independence, right?

00:27:09.640 And the federal government can say, have a nice day, I don't want to talk to you, but hopefully it would lead to negotiations.

00:27:15.540 If the second vote is held and it's for independence, that then is where the mandatory negotiations have to start.

00:27:24.000 But I want to go back to something you said as well about the House and looking up and seeing dirt, is that critics who are trying to scare us away from voting for option two on the 19th actually use the expression that we would need to start a new country from scratch.

00:27:47.800 Some of the recent economic studies that have these doom and gloom numbers

00:27:51.400 assume we would need to build new courthouses in Calgary and Edmonton.

00:27:55.860 Have you guys seen the courthouses in Calgary and Edmonton?

00:27:58.780 I mean, Edmonton's getting a little old, but Calgary's is beautiful,

00:28:01.900 and we already paid for it.

00:28:03.660 It's a provincial building.

00:28:05.360 So there is houses.

00:28:07.560 What's different is who's controlling them. 0.52

00:28:10.560 And with respect to the First Nations matter,

00:28:13.320 um every critic and respectfully yourself bill and you're in good company two justices of our

00:28:22.180 court of king's bench have done the same thing have made an assumption that is false they have

00:28:28.340 made an assumption that if alberta becomes independent and changes the constitutional

00:28:33.160 order of alberta and has our politicians elected here instead of in ontario in ontario quebec

00:28:37.720 that it would change First Nations' rights.

00:28:41.500 And let me prove that false.

00:28:44.100 Right now, the 148 reserves,

00:28:48.740 so 1.3% of Alberta's land base is First Nations' reserves.

00:28:53.880 Right now, that 1.3% of the land base,

00:28:58.060 that land, if you pulled a land title on it,

00:29:00.620 would say the Government of Canada.

00:29:02.780 So reserve land is owned by the Government of Canada.

00:29:06.180 they act as a fiduciary for the First Nations. The First Nations affairs are administered by

00:29:13.260 Ottawa under the Indian Act. First Nations in Alberta and in Canada and in the United States

00:29:19.500 because of the Jay Treaty from the 1700s have the right of free mobility across international

00:29:25.280 boundaries. So if you cross at Coutts into the U.S. and you've got a First Nations person with you

00:29:32.600 when the border guard says, let me see your passport, and he shows or she shows their treaty

00:29:38.320 card, they tell them to have a nice day and enjoy their trip. So if Alberta were becoming independent

00:29:44.500 and one of the 48 First Nations decided amongst their people that they wanted no change and they

00:29:55.860 wanted their land still owned by the federal government in Ottawa, that would be okay. That

00:30:00.060 could happen under this change. And if they decided they wanted Ottawa to still administer

00:30:05.680 the Indian Act, that's their call. In other words, there is no necessity for any change.

00:30:12.020 It's an assumption that it will lead to change. It's not a necessity. There can only be change

00:30:18.220 in a treaty relationship, in my view, if the First Nations asks for it.

00:30:24.420 Anything we want to add?

00:30:27.580 Yeah.

00:30:28.020 that that's that's called clarity that's good but they don't believe you well so let's speak

00:30:35.080 so so they're there and you can't ignore that and i know i hear some oh yeah well who cares

00:30:40.720 it's the who's they because i get first nations coming up to me all the time and say i'm furious

00:30:46.060 with my chief there was no community vote i say well how does your community make a decision

00:30:49.740 oh we bring oh sure and they say they've never done that it's only this many chiefs and you've

00:30:54.680 got to ask, they're just favor-seeking from Ottawa. It's clear as day.

00:30:58.360 They're going to be a road bump. They're going to be a roadblock.

00:31:03.420 Sorry, Bill, I didn't hear you over the... They're going to be a roadblock.

00:31:06.220 So you don't think the indigenous population would simply roll over and fall into place? Absolutely not. 1.00

00:31:10.460 Nobody's talking to them on the independent side. We're speculating on the future,

00:31:14.480 but we're trying to get a picture. I wouldn't disagree with that, but I have to look at this as to

00:31:18.580 what the facts are and what the law is and what the truth is and

00:31:22.300 And whether they're ideologically opposed to independence, they're entitled to have that.

00:31:27.700 But if the suggestion is this, that it's going to, with necessity, lead to a derogation of their rights, I reject that for the reasons I've given.

00:31:35.340 Okay. I'm going to shift gears to the economy.

00:31:38.480 I mean, Alberta is probably one of the few provinces that really focuses on the economy instead of a whole bunch of social issues.

00:31:46.260 It's one of the features of this province is we are rich, agriculture, forestry, minerals as well, and of course our oil and gas.

00:31:54.440 So the economy is critical for all of this discussion that we will have a thriving economy that we've all today have a lot of confidence in.

00:32:01.900 How will our economy be affected should we elect to become more independent?

00:32:07.920 I'll start with you, Bill.

00:32:09.580 I don't care.

00:32:11.060 Okay.

00:32:11.340 Right. So, you know, when you were young, your parents took care of you and paid for everything.

00:32:17.140 Then you started growing up, you made your own breakfast and walked yourself to school and

00:32:21.240 eventually asked for your dad's key card, cars for the key, and then you filled it in gas. And

00:32:26.020 then one day you were paying for your food, your clothes, you paid rent in the basement,

00:32:30.840 you had your own car, and you say, you know what, I can go on my own. And you left the house.

00:32:36.140 And then in my case, I moved into a studio apartment where my kitchen was a bedroom.

00:32:39.900 I left pool tables, TVs, someone who cooked for me.

00:32:46.280 So my lifestyle went from here to here.

00:32:49.400 But what was the difference?

00:32:51.200 I was free.

00:32:52.560 So I don't care what the economic is.

00:32:54.880 If you want freedom, you pay the cost.

00:32:57.000 And it is not free.

00:32:58.660 It's going to be costly.

00:33:00.280 In fact, I believe that Alberta will go down.

00:33:03.480 It will go down because the world won't trust us.

00:33:07.400 But eventually it will.

00:33:08.540 The world won't trust you.

00:33:10.540 No, you won't trust you.

00:33:14.540 There's nothing to trust, there's no history.

00:33:18.540 So the economy will go down, but it doesn't have to stay there.

00:33:23.540 But see, the interesting thing that what Bill's saying is,

00:33:27.540 if we're going into uncharted territory,

00:33:29.540 we can do all we can with lawyers and engineers and whatever,

00:33:33.540 the future would be uncertain.

00:33:35.540 And so we have to accept the fact that there is a worst-case scenario

00:33:39.660 and there's a best-case scenario.

00:33:41.120 So which scenario do you play out?

00:33:44.260 Well, let's be honest.

00:33:48.660 The Royal Bank of Canada did a report, released a report about five months ago.

00:33:53.660 You talk about uncertainty.

00:33:56.160 That's where we are now.

00:33:58.320 Like, look at the amount of political capital that the Premier has had to spend.

00:34:02.640 and it's going to cost over 70 billion dollars of taxpayer money to get a pipeline to the coast

00:34:08.560 that 15 years ago a private company would have done it for zero taxpayer dollars and it would

00:34:15.640 have cost them five billion dollars and to put that in scale so it's 30 or 40 million billion

00:34:20.160 for the pipeline and then another 20 or 30 billion for the pathways add-on cost net zero because you

00:34:27.420 know everybody wants decarbonized oil it's just like the latest pita chet everybody wants one

00:34:32.080 and um but we the royal bank said that over a trillion dollars in investment have left canada

00:34:40.820 and mostly from alberta due to uncertainty we have uncertainty now the laws that created this

00:34:47.000 uncertainty that they cited are still on the books they're not repealed what happened was

00:34:53.900 prime minister carney created a bypass mechanism through his office if you adorn him with with

00:35:00.620 gifts and praise and laugh at his corny jokes um he will give you things that's the major projects

00:35:07.520 office so we have uncertainty now we're not at disney world and i know you're not suggesting it

00:35:12.920 but we're not we're in a tough spot and we have this moment of the abusive spouse bringing us

00:35:19.780 chocolates in the form of a pipeline in hopes that we forget the past so what i see is that

00:35:26.840 over 80% of our trade is north-south with our closest buyer, which happens to be the largest

00:35:36.240 market in the world. Many settlers from around here. Did you guys notice Yankee Boulevard when

00:35:43.920 you drove what the original name of Airdrie was? A lot of people, the families that settled in

00:35:49.440 this area came up from Oklahoma and Kansas. We have a cultural tie to the United States.

00:35:54.120 but we have the third largest reserve of oil in the world. We have vast agricultural land. We have

00:36:00.460 a diversified economy. De Havilland's building its airplanes here. I could go on. When you look at

00:36:05.160 the countries in the Middle East and you look at their per capita allocation of oil, so how much

00:36:10.740 oil per population, we have quadruple what most of them have relative to our population. And every

00:36:19.280 one of those countries has no income tax, free health care, and free post-secondary education.

00:36:25.120 An independent Alberta could become, and it will become, the freest and most prosperous country

00:36:32.300 in the world, and I'm certain of that. I'm going to ask you a question, and I have not heard this

00:36:42.500 question raised any place in Canada in the court. What are the consequences for Canada if Alberta

00:36:47.340 leaves. I thought you were going to ask me what the square root of 72 was. I'm relieved.

00:36:53.260 Well, I mean, either one of you want to jump in? Well, you know what? I think

00:36:56.520 we've all had that friend and maybe had our own experiences where we needed a wake-up call

00:37:03.160 and we were living beyond our means. One of my moving moments at a town hall meeting

00:37:09.460 was when a fellow came to the floor, Mike,

00:37:14.560 very seemingly, the guy would pull over

00:37:17.480 and when your tire's got a flat tire

00:37:20.460 and help you with it.

00:37:21.360 He exuded that kind of integrity

00:37:23.260 and you wouldn't be feared for your safety

00:37:24.960 for a nanosecond, right?

00:37:26.620 And he said, you know, I support independence.

00:37:28.560 He said, but I've got a lot of family

00:37:31.100 on the Maritimes

00:37:32.580 and these equalization payments

00:37:36.260 are really important to them

00:37:37.440 and their hospitals and their schools and I'm worried about them and and it caused me to think

00:37:44.640 and I and so my response is this um I think in my ideal vision and I realize it's I'm trying to

00:37:53.780 I'm intentionally being visionary and so you can say I'm overly optimistic and that's fine

00:37:57.800 is that what would happen is I think Alberta well first of all you know Ontario buys 39 billion

00:38:06.020 worth of goods and services from Albertans and Alberta companies right now. We're their third

00:38:09.660 most important customer. If we can unleash our economy, we could make that $50 billion and we

00:38:16.180 can give more high-paying jobs to people in Ontario. That's a good thing. That's more money

00:38:22.000 for them to pay for schools and education there. Now, one more point, because I realize I'm going

00:38:27.260 along here is that i also believe that alberta as a country would have and this may be controversial

00:38:36.860 an idea of foreign aid where we would send money to nova scotia to say hey we're going to help you

00:38:44.860 build a hospital because right now we send all that money to ottawa and then they go oh we're

00:38:51.000 going to do gender sensitivity training for peasant rice farmers in Vietnam. And so it would 0.83

00:38:56.720 force them, it would force them, it would force Ottawa to be more realistic, make more adult

00:39:04.480 decisions, just like when someone gets told, you know, maybe kicked out of the house and said,

00:39:10.640 you got to get your act together. Do you want to defend the rice farmers in Vietnam in this one?

00:39:19.400 No, no. Again, uncertainty depends on how Alberta leaves. It'll either be really good for Canada or really bad for Canada and really bad for Alberta. So I don't really have a comment on that. It really depends on how Alberta leaves. But in a real brief, Keith, you're preaching to your own choir. Nothing I've heard here has convinced the middle side.

00:39:46.700 You've got a bunch of independence people who will sleep in the dirt under a tent.

00:39:51.660 You've got the Canadians who will stay Canadian even if Alberta is burned to the ground.

00:39:56.680 The middle ones, you're lacking evidence.

00:40:00.100 You've got the firewall.

00:40:01.940 That's been out there for, what, 50 years?

00:40:04.160 Not one of those are done.

00:40:05.660 That could have been done.

00:40:07.560 There's your evidence.

00:40:08.660 Nothing.

00:40:09.780 And to come out and say, oh, Alberta can be independence and you can't even get any of the firewall done, ain't going to happen. 1.00

00:40:16.220 it's the middle group they'd rather stay in a leaky house with paint falling off instead of

00:40:22.220 moving to a piece of dirt and a beautiful blueprint you've got to convince them and

00:40:27.100 that's my side and that's where prepare is you're preparing after the vote i'm saying prepare before

00:40:34.060 the vote what would you prepare first i get the firewall done okay that's the base i mean it's

00:40:39.020 been out there for yeah explain the audience yeah so so it was a document in the 80s by i think dr

00:40:45.020 Cooper and Flanagan and others that wrote five major changes to how Canada works for

00:40:52.060 Alberta, like your own police, your own tax, your own pension, et cetera, et cetera.

00:40:58.180 We've been mulling this around for 50 years, and we don't have any, and those are the institutional

00:41:03.920 foundations.

00:41:04.920 Yes, the money's fine.

00:41:06.240 We've got the resources.

00:41:07.400 That's not a country.

00:41:08.900 Country is not that.

00:41:10.300 is institutional state resort or capability and those are the base they've been out there for 50

00:41:17.180 years and there's not one done and that's when it was easy to do

00:41:24.540 exactly what the heck that's my point if we can't get those done when it's calm

00:41:31.340 how do you expect to do it when it's chaos you're trying to run a country and build these

00:41:36.540 institutions until you get those done no it's not a no problem that's called a failed state

00:41:43.420 so i understand that it's easy to talk to an audience where they've already made the decision

00:41:51.340 that it's clear to them where the better future lies but that's not where i've been spending my

00:41:57.420 energy i actually didn't want to be here today because i wanted to be in my office communicating

00:42:02.620 to the very people that that you're speaking about and so my message to those because i i i

00:42:09.660 i was confronted by a by a lady in her early 70s several weeks ago she recognized me had been on 0.99

00:42:17.180 the news and she wasn't happy to see me holy smokes she came up to me like this she was walking like 0.85

00:42:25.660 this you know and i don't think she was going to tell me i left the lights on in my car or something 0.99

00:42:32.620 And she said, you, you, you're that separatist.

00:42:37.840 And I listened to her and she's like, no, this is the best country.

00:42:42.180 And she said, if anybody's drinking, please stop.

00:42:45.680 She said, Prime Minister Carney's the best prime minister we've ever had.

00:42:49.940 And he's so respected around the world.

00:42:51.620 And his speech at Davos was amazing.

00:42:54.160 And I listened to her and then I started talking to her.

00:42:58.800 and then I asked her some things about what I was concerned about and then she rejected them all

00:43:05.520 but then I said I said you know but what about the fact that we send 20 to 30 billion dollars a

00:43:11.920 year to Ottawa off our paychecks through taxes that we don't get back and we have no say on how

00:43:17.680 the money sent and she went yeah that's a problem that needs to be addressed right right and I

00:43:24.440 didn't you know and I moved on and I thanked her and her husband for the respectful discussion and

00:43:28.920 and so on and so my point is is that my message to those people who who who feel that they want

00:43:38.060 to stay in Canada but are unhappy about how Alberta is being treated and that they feel

00:43:44.600 there are legitimate grievances I say well if you keep everything the same the reform party couldn't

00:43:53.160 do it. The firewall letter never got in, even with Harper as the Prime Minister. So we need to do

00:43:59.940 something different. Vote for option two. Send the message that Alberta can do better. If you look at

00:44:07.580 all of our slogans for the last five weeks, it's been option one, status quo. Option two, we can

00:44:14.460 do better. Not independence, not separation. And so I'm trying to get those people who are in the

00:44:21.500 middle to understand that the best thing they can do to have the concerns that they themselves have

00:44:27.480 identified with how Canada is not working for Alberta addressed. That's our focus. If we can

00:44:33.440 convince more of those people that they're not actually voting for independence, this room got

00:44:38.700 it, you know, they reacted strongly earlier to that concept, that I think we can get the votes

00:44:44.820 we need on the 19th yeah that's that's that's my point they may get it but no one else does and

00:44:52.660 that's what they're reading and until you until the movement matures and you're doing a good job

00:44:57.780 getting there until the movement matures and people who think you can build a a state when

00:45:04.580 you're in chaos look at somalia and you can't do it i promise you and you need to get over that

00:45:13.220 you need to be able to prepare albertans in the middle that this is real you don't need every

00:45:20.020 you don't need every room in the house built i'll give you that but it needs a roof and the girders

00:45:25.140 have to be strong and the foundation needs to be strong evidence otherwise i will tell you it'll

00:45:31.700 be no forever or yes i guess it's yes well right i mean yes we stay in canada right you'll never

00:45:39.460 get over that and and i want to always say one other thing okay this was a debate initially

00:45:46.020 generated by perry that had me as prepare mr wilson representing the independence movement

00:45:52.980 and someone representing canada only and it is very telling to me that either perry doesn't

00:46:00.180 know who to call or there's no chair here and this is a major issue for canadian firsters

00:46:08.980 they believe the status quo needs no no defending yeah let me let me step in that because the

00:46:14.180 audience needs to hear this so this is the second time i've done this with these gentlemen we did a

00:46:18.740 zoom on september 10th this was richer by the way and thank you as an audience uh in fact in the

00:46:24.980 zoom call there were two things going on there was what was going on in the stage which was somewhat

00:46:29.380 cerebral somewhat emotional but the chat that was going on was violent and vile and there were

00:46:36.340 people saying this is not necessarily the environment that we need to manage this is a

00:46:41.440 healthy environment you're listening you know we've heard earlier about the importance of

00:46:45.940 we heard earlier from the american gentleman who i was very impressed with uh talking about the

00:46:52.480 importance of speaking up that's not canada's problem right now the canada's problem right now

00:46:56.960 is listening and then acting and that's my ready fire aim element by the way by the way i have a

00:47:02.680 phone call here and I need to I need to just address it for a second you talked about creativity

00:47:08.640 and hold on just a yeah yeah oh okay ladies and gentlemen Canada has just announced to Goldilocks

00:47:20.120 who knows who knows who Goldilocks is come on Goldilocks who is it Trump Canada has just

00:47:29.760 announced its counteroffer to the 51st state. The counteroffer is, Mr. Goldilocks, we want 11,

00:47:37.620 which is the Yukon and 10 provinces. Thank you very much. And we're not finished there.

00:47:42.680 He said, we want tax-free status for 10 years because we're bringing you the cheapest defense

00:47:47.800 system in the world, our weather, our wilderness, and our women. He said, you don't want to confront

00:47:53.280 Canada knowing how extensive and effective our defense system is. On top of that, we want our

00:47:59.160 indigenous rights protected. We want our pension system detected, protected, and we want our

00:48:04.820 health care system protected, they told me. So that's the counteroffer of Canada to the United

00:48:10.300 States. It's meant to be provocative. It's meant before lunch to make you smile a little bit. Oh,

00:48:16.280 but by the way, that one came from Mexico. Mexico said, what, what, you're giving them 11? We got

00:48:22.000 31 so mexico comes in with 31 and canada says you know 11 gives us 22 senators and 53 seats in the

00:48:29.840 house of representatives we got 25 representation now in the united states but mexico says we don't

00:48:36.480 have to join the united states let's become a continent let's take the whole continent as the

00:48:41.120 u.s defensive strategy is arguing we need to be think continental maybe we need to be thinking

00:48:46.320 bigger and then uh latin america steps in brings in another seven states now we got 49 states and 50

00:48:53.920 in the u.s and they call for a continental congress in las vegas and celine dion opens it

00:49:00.720 and who do you think is a canadian negotiator for bordering don cherry

00:49:07.520 and don cherry pulls it off and the world agrees that we need a nation that has a secure

00:49:13.840 underground tunnels and things like that, like they're putting underneath the ballroom in

00:49:17.440 Washington. Where are we going to get a city, a capital for the continent? Well, the United

00:49:24.380 States of North America, not under American influence, but with a new capital and a whole

00:49:29.140 new structure, probably around senators. They'd get 100 and we'd get, oh, we're not going to get

00:49:34.320 100. We're going to get 100. You know why we're going to get 100? Cuba just stepped in and brings

00:49:39.200 us 50-50. So now we've got 50-50. We've got to pick the capital. And you know what they chose

00:49:44.660 as a capital? Let me see if anybody in the audience knows what the capital should be.

00:49:48.280 Let me hear one. Wrong. Moose Jaw. That's the deal. That's the art of the deal. And we need

00:49:57.320 to have a big vision. And I suspect when I get here, I'm 84. When I'm 100, we're going to see

00:50:03.720 whether or not we're sitting on this very platform talking about the vision of thinking big

00:50:10.620 and not just defensively. So I share that with you. I thank you, Bill. I thank you, Keith. It's

00:50:16.860 been wonderful. Thank you, audience, for listening and being civil. I was apprehensive about that.

00:50:33.720 Thank you.

The Critical Compass Podcast - October 17, 2026

Independence Debate： Keith Wilson vs Bill Jones ｜ Does Alberta Need Canada？

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