The Critical Compass Podcast - August 04, 2026


Is Independence Possible？ ｜ Change Our Minds w⧸ Kathy Flett


Episode Stats


Length

20 minutes

Words per minute

196.49

Word count

4,016

Sentence count

95


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.280 Once we are, say it happens, right? Say we become our own country and now 50% of our resource revenue isn't going to Ottawa because that's what happens.
00:00:08.180 We are keeping 100% of our resource revenue. We don't build one more pipeline. We just got 100% raised.
00:00:14.160 What would that happen to be, do you think?
00:00:16.060 I think when we get to that hurdle, it's going to be the treaties.
00:00:20.980 Okay.
00:00:21.540 Truthfully. Yeah, I think that's going to be because they're a legally signed document that declares some land ownership.
00:00:30.000 Nice to meet you, Chaffee.
00:00:32.040 Nice to meet you, Mike.
00:00:32.600 What's your name?
00:00:32.920 Mike.
00:00:33.200 Nice to meet you, Mike.
00:00:35.220 So what do you think?
00:00:37.340 Well, I disagree with independence, but I understand the movement and why it's gaining traction.
00:00:45.900 Okay.
00:00:46.140 Like, I get the independent side, because it's bullshit, essentially, what's been happening to Alberta.
00:00:54.000 Right.
00:00:54.200 you know it's like it's a totally fair take and it's the most fair take of separation from any
00:01:00.360 province wink wink nudge yeah sounds like you like independence actually well i just
00:01:08.360 maybe it's because because of the process that it's gonna be
00:01:14.440 and like you know even if like referendum passes like all the different steps
00:01:18.040 it's almost utopic believing that it's possible okay you know what i mean
00:01:25.140 it could be yeah yeah like there's a lot of details we don't have yeah there's so many
00:01:29.960 details yeah and there's so many things that have to get organized yeah i think but
00:01:33.220 like in my yeah what i also think is the way that the movement's being dealt with
00:01:39.340 from the like politicians has been horrible then like the institution is a bit bad it's a bad
00:01:46.480 response yeah it's a bad response it's a very bad response it is you treat you treat you treat
00:01:50.780 you treat it's just like the same thing that with practice but you treat people like a friend
00:01:53.720 yeah and become a friend right can i ask you what um what might be your like if you have a top
00:02:00.480 one or two or three things that you would be most concerned with why you don't think it would work
00:02:05.320 well what why i don't think it would work is because no no sea access okay we have the most
00:02:12.940 Liberal province to the west of us, if Alberta separates, they're not going to give us access and we go north and it's a lot more indigenous self-governance to the north.
00:02:28.760 They're not going to be happy.
00:02:30.500 They're not going to let anything go through.
00:02:32.160 Saskatchewan will, Manitoba won't, Ontario.
00:02:35.000 we sure we can go to the south but then we face somebody from the south trying to suck us up and
00:02:44.020 then we're not a sovereign country by ourselves anyways that's because that's going to be the
00:02:48.660 deal is we're going to become landlocked i think that's the one like big the big issue i see with
00:02:52.920 becoming a sovereign problem let me let me see if i can uh if i can respond and you'll have
00:02:57.920 something too yeah go ahead are you are you familiar with um it's called the the acronym
00:03:02.820 is unclose unclos it's the un convention of the law of the sea yes yes yes so what that does is
00:03:10.500 it guarantees uh port access to landlocked nations uh when they're surrounded by a member state
00:03:17.300 canada's a member state so what we've talked about with experts on this we are not experts is they
00:03:24.500 said that actually ironically because of this convention we may actually be guaranteed better
00:03:29.620 port access than we have now with interprofessional trade barriers as they are see and i do know about
00:03:34.760 unclosed but the problem with unclosed is it's in the definition of the u.m it's none of it's
00:03:41.960 enforceable right none of it's enforced it does require you know the countries to play yeah and
00:03:47.700 if they don't play ball there's no punishment i would say that the punishment would be uh is that
00:03:54.620 it goes both ways if Alberta wants to get our product to the Pacific well BC needs to get their
00:04:01.660 product from the Pacific to the east and vice versa the east has to get their product through
00:04:06.180 no one wants to go up into the territories and down so I would say that you know the people that
00:04:11.060 we've talked to who kind of have more of this sort of business and economic experience say that
00:04:15.300 in all likelihood cooler heads would prevail yeah Canada would say you know what we don't want our
00:04:20.440 shit held up you don't want your shit held up as it stands actually alberta's uh about 90 percent
00:04:26.880 of alberta's trade right now is north south anyway and so i don't know i've heard we've
00:04:32.540 heard that concern a lot i just don't know that it necessarily like it makes sense that it would
00:04:36.760 be like well screw you we're gonna impede your exports well i don't know i think that once
00:04:42.080 people start looking at the numbers they might say this is just not a fight worth having yeah
00:04:47.720 Yeah, and I think what frustrates me is that we're landlocked now because our federal government did it to us.
00:04:52.700 Oh, yeah.
00:04:53.040 Not so much.
00:04:54.320 Yeah.
00:04:55.420 And that's what makes me mad.
00:04:57.180 It's like they did it.
00:04:58.600 It's not anybody else.
00:04:59.980 They did it.
00:05:00.740 Yeah.
00:05:01.060 However, once we are, say it happens, right?
00:05:04.620 Say we become our own country and now 50% of our resource revenue isn't going to Ottawa because that's what happens.
00:05:10.260 We are keeping 100% of our resource revenue.
00:05:13.540 We don't build one more pipeline.
00:05:14.880 We just got 100% raised.
00:05:16.200 Yeah.
00:05:16.360 so we're still okay yeah right and that so i'm like find me like is there something else that
00:05:22.960 i'm not seeing yeah in that math yeah and i don't know yeah not that anybody's told me yet no yeah
00:05:28.600 no that is a good point too i think it's just it's also like it's one of those issues that like
00:05:33.760 it's such a culmination of things where and it's not going to make much to fix the the western
00:05:40.160 deal it takes better federal government that's right but who has the who has the appetite to do
00:05:46.780 that in audible and who has the voting power yeah southern ontario yeah yeah yeah how many elections
00:05:53.100 are all the things right i think our last provincial or sorry our last federal election
00:05:57.320 was called at 809 our ballots closed yeah they didn't even open our ballot boxes they're like
00:06:03.220 oh yeah it sucks to be you here's who wants because it's the battlegrounds yeah that's also
00:06:08.260 a very interesting topic because it's like uh oh what's his name Andrew Coyne yeah yeah so he
00:06:14.780 he came and he did a speech here at the U of A um the end close to the end of the last school year
00:06:20.320 okay and uh he talked about he talked about that a lot like he's obviously a federalist um but he
00:06:26.820 talked about like all the issues that have like caused you know where we're at today which is like
00:06:31.080 the the feds like never having any backbone of the constitution from the get-go yeah because
00:06:36.660 like you know they given they've given not even an inch they've given 17 000 feet to the east
00:06:42.340 right and then the west wants something and then it's what no we can't yeah we're asking for more
00:06:48.840 than we can give yeah but it's you gave all that already once yeah so why what so the feds had
00:06:55.840 being spineless in terms of the constitution didn't help and then also um when he discussed the
00:07:01.500 um
00:07:02.760 where'd I go with that
00:07:04.300 what were we just
00:07:04.740 talking about
00:07:05.240 Andrew Klein
00:07:06.040 talking about
00:07:06.980 um
00:07:08.360 first past the post
00:07:10.100 basically
00:07:10.660 yes
00:07:11.040 yeah well
00:07:11.480 and that
00:07:11.800 when we
00:07:12.680 when you use the word
00:07:14.120 which is something
00:07:15.200 that like
00:07:15.840 I
00:07:16.340 we
00:07:17.500 we should all
00:07:18.200 it's this should all
00:07:19.520 raise a red flag
00:07:20.200 in our brain
00:07:20.720 is that
00:07:21.120 we say
00:07:21.740 battleground riding
00:07:22.600 yeah
00:07:24.340 why
00:07:24.840 that's a good point
00:07:27.180 we say
00:07:27.820 battleground riding
00:07:29.240 yeah
00:07:29.620 yeah
00:07:30.200 battleground riding shouldn't they all be equal yeah that's a good one yeah why are some why are
00:07:38.680 some writings more equal than others right yeah and so we say we say the word battleground riding
00:07:43.000 why that that term that shouldn't exist that terminology shouldn't exist yeah right yeah
00:07:48.500 and it's like duh but no one thinks about it everyone's just like oh the battleground right
00:07:53.300 yeah i'm totally killing it right yeah we just say that word and expect they're going to be okay
00:07:59.580 well and how many people talk about like like senate seat allocation allocation yes why we
00:08:05.840 have so few compared to to these or even you know they who's talking about uh uh constituents per
00:08:13.720 riding you know and how there's so many more constituents per riding out west than out east
00:08:18.960 yeah it's like the the the influence that they have it's just so much greater like how are you
00:08:23.120 ever meant to overcome that yeah you know through the legal means that they've that they've established
00:08:27.880 And that's not to say that anything that anyone's doing in this movement is illegal.
00:08:32.360 We're just, you know, seeking to have a democratic referendum.
00:08:35.560 But through the system that exists now, how do you overcome that hurdle?
00:08:40.720 Well, that's it.
00:08:41.400 It sort of feels like this is the only way we'll actually have a voice.
00:08:43.680 I guess maybe it's not.
00:08:44.780 Yeah, to be taken seriously.
00:08:46.840 Like I joke sometimes that like I would be happy if we got 10% of the consideration that Quebec gets.
00:08:52.980 Yeah, exactly.
00:08:54.380 Just something.
00:08:55.300 But it's just, you look at how this movement has been treated relative to how the Quebec separatists were treated in the 90s, the 80s and the 90s, and even now.
00:09:04.820 So if, in your guys' opinion, if separatism, like, was not an option, like, we get through, you know, referendum happens, the vote passes, then we start doing all the rest of the steps, and then we get to a true legal, like, stoppage.
00:09:21.560 and we're like okay this is a fair democratic like this is just it's not gonna happen yeah we
00:09:27.740 get to that point because there's still the problem what do you guys think is a solution
00:09:33.100 like if everything goes through in a fair and you know democratic manner yeah everything happens in
00:09:38.240 a transparent way and we just get to the point it's like what would that happen do you think
00:09:43.060 i think when we get to that hurdle it's going to be the the treaties okay truthfully yeah i think
00:09:50.000 that's that's going to be because they're they're they're legally signed document yeah that that
00:09:53.820 that declares some land ownership right do you know who signed them though initially what do
00:09:58.100 you mean who who the initial signatories of the of the treaties were well it was the crown yeah but
00:10:02.760 what crown the like like the uk the british crown yeah yeah and then when canada became its own
00:10:10.060 country they transferred to canada yeah why can't that happen again well but it's going to be the
00:10:15.640 Because that was like an agreement that was, I mean, an officiate agreement, not less,
00:10:20.400 but it was an agreement that was made between the parties.
00:10:22.300 So it's whether or not they want to play ball.
00:10:24.040 Totally, totally.
00:10:24.760 That's what I think the stoppage is going to be.
00:10:27.140 That certainly could be.
00:10:29.080 Yeah.
00:10:29.280 I would say, so I think at last count, last time I checked, I think there's about,
00:10:33.480 there's almost 50 Indigenous bands in Alberta, unique Indigenous bands.
00:10:39.160 And from what we've heard on the news anyway, it's only like five or six chiefs
00:10:43.780 that are really vocal about having a problem about this
00:10:46.080 because from what we've seen from the polling being done,
00:10:49.500 actually, the racial demographic
00:10:51.980 that's most in favour of independence
00:10:53.840 is the Indigenous in Alberta
00:10:55.780 because most of them know,
00:10:58.140 like, if you're living on a reserve right now
00:10:59.800 and you're living in abject poverty,
00:11:02.480 like, what is the treaty doing for you?
00:11:05.300 Yeah, there's nowhere to go but out.
00:11:06.380 They don't own their own land.
00:11:07.760 They can't buy and sell property.
00:11:09.560 They can't, like, they're so restricted
00:11:11.200 in what they can do.
00:11:11.960 For me, if I were an Indigenous person living on a reserve, I'd say, actually, this seems to me to be a great opportunity to renegotiate a better deal than what we're getting from the feds right now.
00:11:21.760 You know what I mean?
00:11:22.140 Then the problem is the six, is it's going to be a Meech Lake Accord situation, where all it takes is one person to say no, and everything's out, which is…
00:11:29.860 Doesn't seem very democratic.
00:11:31.240 Well, but that's, yeah, but that's, the Meech Lake, that's just, that followed the rules of our governing bodies, right?
00:11:38.680 And it's a valid concern.
00:11:40.780 it is a valid concern and it brings up then another point that needs to be considered in
00:11:46.140 in the new country so let's say okay we've passed the referendum this is what everybody wants now
00:11:50.620 we've got it now we've got all of these first nations to contend with and each of them
00:11:53.900 individually because they're each their own yeah yeah and then say a whole bunch of them say yeah
00:11:57.500 you know what this completely sucks in canada we don't want any part of this either we're coming
00:12:00.780 with you well that's great and then there's these few holdouts that say no we're not cool with this
00:12:05.260 we want to stay within canada they could right because reserve land is already federal land yeah
00:12:13.020 so they could still remain i mean it would look a little swiss cheesy yeah but it's not like we
00:12:18.140 couldn't be good neighbors even with them in the middle like i think there's some middle ground
00:12:22.620 in there that that a lot of those guys could really have their cake and eat it too in a way
00:12:26.940 yeah the ones that want to stay well go ahead if this is working for you you do it these guys they
00:12:31.180 don't want to stay that's their choice and at the end of the day all of the folks that live on those
00:12:37.340 reserves each get a vote the chief doesn't speak for them yeah which is what a lot of people get
00:12:41.740 confused by they think the chief is the vote no and the chief is not the vote the people are the
00:12:46.700 vote yeah and it might be kind of fun to see well if these chiefs you know three or four of them is
00:12:52.620 probably all it'll amount to say yeah we want to remain part of confederation part of canada
00:12:57.580 how many of the aboriginals that live on those reserves are going to be like,
00:13:01.480 peace out, I'm out of here.
00:13:05.720 And it's just, it's kind of fun to go down these little rabbit trails
00:13:10.680 and go, what could happen?
00:13:11.840 Yeah, what could happen?
00:13:12.740 Yeah, exactly.
00:13:13.580 But that's great that you're talking, you're thinking about contingencies.
00:13:16.740 You've got to think about, yeah, there's so many ways.
00:13:19.280 Yeah, and I'm not opposed to the idea, essentially, of independence.
00:13:25.620 And I just don't see it feasible, which is not a reason to not go ahead with it or to not try and not see what happens.
00:13:33.020 People don't realize how much it's happened, you know?
00:13:35.360 In the last, you know, since 1990, there's been 40 countries, 35 countries created or seceded.
00:13:41.740 There's been over 140 since 1900.
00:13:46.780 New countries happen and form and secede and move and change all the time.
00:13:50.540 And it's not, and it's like, it's an idea and for, for people to be like, to not let an idea go forward that, which that's, that's a whole other thing, you know, in and of itself of like, that's, that's the poison chalice of liberalism.
00:14:03.080 the intolerant
00:14:05.720 are just those who disagree
00:14:07.240 right so that's like that
00:14:09.220 where then that's like one of the crappy
00:14:11.560 things that's been happening like the fact that the
00:14:13.580 the uh
00:14:14.840 like referendum originally got
00:14:17.500 denied by the supreme court
00:14:18.760 because of the treaties is involved
00:14:21.300 that's the next step
00:14:23.220 anyway that's that's this is just a referendum
00:14:25.400 that's been asked to have the horse yeah
00:14:27.120 exactly they're putting the cart before the horse
00:14:29.200 you know they're yoking the wrong unit here like
00:14:31.260 This is just the referendum.
00:14:33.660 And once it goes through, we go to the next state.
00:14:35.840 That's right.
00:14:36.340 This is not, the referendum isn't like the minute it passes, it's like, boom, okay.
00:14:39.920 We're our own country.
00:14:41.160 Yeah, no, no, no.
00:14:42.120 This is step one.
00:14:43.660 Yeah.
00:14:44.040 This is the same way Quebec got to have theirs.
00:14:46.340 Like, I thought we had a precedence common law system.
00:14:49.580 We do.
00:14:50.280 Supposedly.
00:14:50.900 You think, yeah.
00:14:51.660 And who shut it down?
00:14:52.680 Like, who's just adding more fuel to the fire?
00:14:54.600 A liberal appointed judge.
00:14:56.220 Judge.
00:14:56.760 Then it's like, come on.
00:15:00.200 come just play ball yeah play ball and even even if you as the judge disagree with the idea of
00:15:06.040 independence citizens you need to give even if you believe it's a fringe minority of people
00:15:12.520 and it's a radical idea all they want is the opportunity to have the vote don't you want to
00:15:17.260 have the horrid numbers on that to say i told you to say whatever and whichever side it is
00:15:22.560 this is just don't let people feel cheated you know if i was like if i was today i'm not a boxer
00:15:27.800 and I was like I want to fight Mike Tyson and you guys were like no no no you're not allowed to
00:15:33.080 and I was like well just let me just let me fight him just let me fight him just let me fight him
00:15:36.200 you guys were like no you're gonna get your ass kicked no way or you could just say yeah okay let
00:15:40.560 me get my ass kicked yeah and I walk away happy right because I try you should go and I'm not
00:15:46.360 saying that and I'm not saying that's what that's what the referendum or the separation movement is
00:15:49.940 but I'm just saying you just kind of like don't let people feel if that's what you feel like don't
00:15:53.760 to feel cheated out that's all that people need and the way that like the ndp are playing this up
00:15:58.800 in the house which is also really frustrating because of the way like danielle smith has to
00:16:06.480 walk she has to walk she's walking a type yeah right she's walking a very very thin line of
00:16:12.000 trying to keep the party together yeah because that would be affordable yeah that would be
00:16:16.560 horrible if the party splits trying to keep the party together and trying to give everybody the
00:16:21.280 the opportunity that they that they need and as someone who she herself is not a
00:16:26.000 semitist yeah she couldn't be more clear about that and so so when the when the
00:16:30.400 NDP are hurling rocks at our corners they're just making this situation worse
00:16:34.060 yeah they're just making the situation worse just say your stance on it move on
00:16:38.980 she's she has a lot on her plate in this situation right now and it's trying to
00:16:43.900 keep a lot of things together so just like yeah just let's just let this this
00:16:49.240 movement go forward we have the petitions we have the signatures you know is the water not
00:16:53.400 coal petition going to get thrown out because that's treaty land right and that's their decision
00:16:57.700 to make no we'll see right like that right like it is that that's the part that's also it's just
00:17:04.440 like everything's just being portrayed and happening in just such a silly silly way it is
00:17:10.180 like things just aren't happening that the way they should be and it's just making people more
00:17:13.280 and more upset if you know and especially for those people on on the opposite side of independence
00:17:18.900 who are like absolutely not no friggin way it's and those are the people who are who are screaming
00:17:23.520 and crying and throwing fits they're the ones who are making the situation worse themselves yes
00:17:26.980 they're pushing more people they're pushing the people in the center who then see this judge say
00:17:30.820 no to the referendum yeah then they're like okay well obviously something's wrong here obviously
00:17:37.120 this isn't right and then they jump over then they jump ship right so for those people who are
00:17:41.340 trying to fight against it they're fighting against it all the wrong way yeah you know yeah
00:17:44.620 And most of the people who are supporting it are fighting it in the right manner.
00:17:49.340 Yeah, there's a few that I would like to put some duct tape on their mouths.
00:17:53.420 Yeah, and it's just like...
00:17:55.420 Yeah, exactly.
00:17:58.100 What do you guys think about the UCPs and Danielle?
00:18:02.620 Well, full disclosure, I'm a UCP member.
00:18:04.760 I'm in there like a dirty shirt.
00:18:07.640 I have been a Danielle supporter since she came on.
00:18:11.740 And I was willing to give her a second chance.
00:18:14.000 because everybody knows the history there and blah blah blah so that's fine yeah for the most
00:18:17.840 part i'm quite happy with what she's accomplished yeah the only complaint i have at this moment
00:18:22.520 is that she is actively campaigning against the independence movement yeah and i don't think
00:18:28.280 that's her role to do now i could be missing something fair enough but i don't think that's
00:18:32.840 her role to do it it's her role to say you know what this is for the people by the people let
00:18:37.480 the people figure it out yeah and we're going to leave the politicians out of it it's like the
00:18:41.000 chair speaking in a meeting exactly yeah that's the only thing that just really yeah has my feathers
00:18:48.080 a little rough fair enough yeah yeah fair enough but do you think that they've like other than that
00:18:52.720 taken a pretty fair direction on it like i think so yeah yeah i think so i mean she gave us the
00:18:56.860 opportunity to have to do the signatures she's appealing the court case which is i think good
00:19:02.280 i think that's the right thing yeah um yeah and has said you know i that she will respect whatever
00:19:09.700 the outcome is yeah and if the outcome is that the referendum have a referendum passes yeah then
00:19:15.440 i think we have to have a different conversation because only because she's campaigning against us
00:19:20.720 yeah yeah fair enough because then like well what do we and a lot of our mlas too yeah right because
00:19:25.920 okay if that passed and that's the other thing like there's 10 questions coming at us that we've
00:19:31.520 got to pay attention to yeah and answer all of them yeah like just don't answer the ones you like
00:19:37.040 and make sure you understand them because they're all a paragraph long yeah it's one it's one
00:19:41.100 sentence that's like this yeah um but when we get to that point let's say we win just hypotheticals
00:19:47.700 okay we want a referendum to have a referendum okay she can do that at any time there's some
00:19:51.700 people that say she can't in an election year that's not correct yeah legislation states that
00:19:55.820 she can yeah and so we challenge her okay we want this by spring we want to know we want we want to
00:20:01.920 get this done yeah all right so let's say it's march we have the referendum the referendum passes
00:20:05.960 now at that point depending how she was behaving between October and the referendum the real
00:20:13.600 referendum will determine whether we can trust her to take this into negotiations yeah that's
00:20:19.480 my only hiccup yeah I think that's a fair hiccup to have I think that's a fair that's a fair stance
00:20:25.880 to take.