00:13:09.200yeah i was kind of intrigued well and the reason okay so because i've been looking at colonel
00:13:19.120redmond's paper and i mean i'm not a politician by any means or political scientist or anything
00:13:24.860like that but in reading his papers you know he has a six national interests and um the first one
00:13:32.340was unity and that's what we talked to him about on monday and then of course protection of rights
00:13:37.560and freedoms is another one um and a few other ones good governance uh personal what is it
00:13:45.740personal responsibility economic prosperity that type of thing and but he made the very strong
00:13:52.060point that everything that our government does should be focused on those six national interests
00:13:59.800now i asked him where did the six national interests come from like did he just make them
00:14:03.680up because he thought they were good but he said no every nation has those same six national
00:14:10.700interests but what differentiates us from other nations like communist china from a democratic
00:14:18.440country would be what they have done to express those six national interests there you go thank
00:14:24.480you how they express that those particular interests is what differentiates us from
00:14:31.340a democratic country or a communist country that type of thing and so to see the charter of rights
00:14:38.380and freedoms like there's a whole huge chunk in there that has nothing really to do with those
00:14:44.320six national interests that might explain a lot about Canada and kind of where we are right now
00:14:50.160yeah um and and if some are taking precedence over others and you know is that the intention
00:15:00.040or where did where did things go awry so yeah I'm with you on that interesting and it does seem like
00:15:07.720a lot of people, if we're kind of linking this back to independence, one of the motivating factors
00:15:15.700outside of economic concerns is the erosion of rights and freedoms. I think COVID was a big
00:15:24.620wake-up call for a lot of people. They saw what happened during COVID, and then they saw
00:15:30.120how reluctant governments were to provide any actual justification for the suspension of
00:15:38.320rights during that so that's one very fresh example where people are they they see this
00:15:45.480and they don't want that replicated in a new alberta uh if we have a successful referendum
00:15:51.360um so i i feel like people are wanting more enshrined rights that can't easily be taken away
00:16:01.080um and that's a common thing we we hear yeah and maybe i'll just mention one thing because
00:16:10.160you know we're quite a few years out and then one thing that challenges me sometimes is when
00:16:18.060I hear people saying, you know, I was fired because of not getting vaccinated and we should be suing.
00:16:28.760There needs to be a class action suing the government because they infringed on my rights.
00:16:35.120And unless you were working for the government, you wouldn't sue the government for something your employer did.
00:16:43.180And so this is why, to me, educating people on their rights is so important.
00:16:48.060And having that basic understanding, because yes, 100% during COVID people started, their rights were affected, but via who? There was, of course, some lawsuits that were directed to the government for government action, like the federal travel mandate, and I still am not pleased with how that case ended, because the courts found that it was moot.
00:17:15.360But on that point, that was a government action. And the government said that you need to have your vaccinations in order to get on planes, trains, boats in Canada.
00:17:29.700So the arguments were made in court on mobility rights under the Charter, some other rights as well.
00:17:36.720So that was directly associated with the government. But when somebody's rights to work, for example, or they were let go from their work, we have to understand that that's something different. And so just that basic understanding, I think, is a very important starting place sometimes.
00:17:58.180that's interesting so eva a question i have then is if we were to have if we are successful in our
00:18:12.440referendum and we are to create an independent alberta what are some very particular things
00:18:18.100that you would put in place to ensure that we don't end up back kind of where we are right
00:18:26.460now in Canada where there has been some erosion of rights or where those the charter rights were
00:18:31.500in many times completely ignored or violated yeah so now maybe if we could pull it up again James
00:18:38.640the charter because it was the one I skipped over this to help explain why some of these rights were
00:18:47.060eroded is there some wording in section one of the charter you have these nice rights starting
00:18:53.340at Section 2, Fundamental Freedoms, but Section 1, and thank you for making it bigger,
00:18:59.680oh, just Section 1 right there, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the
00:19:05.360rights and freedoms set out in subject, set out in a subject only to reasonable limits prescribed
00:19:14.520by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society so section one is a very
00:19:24.380important section to understand and that so how it works in canada is you say okay let's look at
00:19:34.340mobility rights every citizen of canada has the right to enter remain and leave canada that's
00:19:42.460a right that's there it's absolute it's very clear and so as a citizen you have to demonstrate
00:19:50.640that your right to enter remain in and leave Canada has been infringed okay that's what we
00:19:59.740were doing in court with the travel mandate so that's the onus on the citizens to show that that
00:20:05.860right was breached, infringed, affected. That was relatively easy to do in the travel mandate case
00:20:13.800because people couldn't move in Canada. But then the onus turns on the government imposing and
00:20:21.640breaching the section. And then if you go back up to one, they can then show that to the court
00:20:29.240that there is a reasonable limit and it could be demonstrably justified that that breach is okay
00:20:38.000and so we didn't get that far in the travel mandate case but in other cases that we were
00:20:44.260seeing over the covid period that's that's how it works so you have to show there's a breach
00:20:50.560and then the government has an opportunity to say hey hey we tried our best we had to do this
00:20:57.160That's Section 1. And so there's a test under that one that courts utilize, and they were quite willing to allow the government those breaches because they said it was justified under Section 1.
00:21:15.720So one thing that could easily, very quickly change the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is perhaps not having something like Section 1.
00:21:32.800Is there any, just to play devil's advocate, is there any, like, positive utility you can see in having something like a Section 1?
00:21:43.280like is there anything that's you know it's I think just from how we've seen it used I think
00:21:49.780it is sort of you know a fail a government fail safe a get out of jail free card essentially
00:21:54.860can you make any steel man case for why it exists or why it might be reasonable for it to exist
00:22:01.140yeah of course and originally it was in in good it was used in in better ways
00:22:09.340unfortunately during covid it was just emergency we tried our best and kind of hands up
00:22:15.340um but i think that through this period we've learned that maybe that's not necessary is that
00:22:24.580i think there's other ways to get around it instead it doesn't have to be enshrined in the
00:22:30.480charter um cases can then be developed through common law and we can have an understanding
00:22:36.780but to give that kind of carte blanche it looks like to the government i don't know if that's
00:22:44.820that was the original intention and it certainly wasn't used that way prior to covid as far as i
00:22:51.140can see in in a sense some of these uh it feels like this works when you have engaged citizens
00:23:01.300and you have a certain level of trust between citizens and a government.
00:23:06.680And I think one hurdle right now is that trust isn't there.
00:23:10.500So I think people have the tendency to want to reduce scope of government
00:23:16.260because it would essentially reduce the amount that they can interfere with one's life.
00:23:22.780So I think the trust piece is a in Canada, people in Alberta feel like the trust has been broken and that's a hard that's a hard sell.
00:23:36.240And but I think Alberta, upon a successful referendum, that trust would be in a different situation.
00:23:44.540But I was going to say that we're in a unique situation right now that the petition and the referendum that's coming up, it is getting people more engaged in 2026 than we've seen for a long time.
00:24:02.420So if this is getting people more aware of Canada's history, more aware of the Charter as it currently stands, more aware of Confederation, then that is not a bad thing, regardless of whatever direction this goes.
00:24:16.280And regardless if you're in Alberta or if you're in Ontario, this conversation is still valuable.
00:24:29.000Yeah, that's a really good point, James.
00:24:31.100And I think that, you know, the more engaged that you have people, you know, the citizenry, the more engaged they are, the more accountable our government becomes.
00:34:19.500But I think that's a really good option.
00:34:24.880At least televise who these people are so we know.
00:34:28.280yeah that would be nice yeah and it's interesting like i enjoy the ones that i see in the united
00:34:35.780states um again you learn you learn they talk about cases that they've ruled on and so you
00:34:42.820you again start to understand a little bit more about the process what the case was about or why
00:34:48.300they ruled the way they did and again that's educating um the citizenry just through that
00:34:55.240discussion so i was gonna say the uh we we recently chatted with michael wagner and he's
00:35:04.660talking about kind of the history of how how things shifted but before 1982 when the charter
00:35:11.800of rights and freedoms came into play and one of his points he was kind of reflecting on is that
00:35:18.760that shifted Canada to being to have rather than the supremacy of the legislators now it's now the
00:35:25.940supremacy of the courts in a way where these courts are now like obviously they're supposed
00:35:32.760to be a checks they're supposed to be providing a check and balance but maybe that kind of ties
00:35:41.360into why people are either either you take away a certain amount of supremacy from the courts or
00:35:48.000you have the elected accountability because if you do not have like if they cannot coexist then
00:35:54.680essentially you have a unaccountable in a in a sense like an unaccountable arm of the government
00:36:01.720that like this can distort these laws from how they appear in the legislator and i know
00:36:10.300they're supposed to interpret and be a check check and balance but i i think we're seeing
00:36:15.140examples of of things being maybe courts overstepping a little bit which could still
00:36:22.580be addressed by this accountability factor of like televising more of these courtrooms having
00:36:29.920more people engaged um having more eyes on it would prevent abuse but i i think also then the
00:36:38.540question is like how much power should courts have and and what would like a proper check and
00:36:44.880balance look like yeah well those are good points the one thing i would just make uh too is supremacy
00:36:51.200from the legislature to supremacy of courts i haven't heard that but it more so supremacy of
00:36:56.640the constitution is what what is argued because it was the constitution that was come into place
00:37:03.040i guess i could see what he's saying with that um what i would say too in response is and i think
00:37:10.280this goes to what angela was saying we were asleep at the wheel and i think that there's so many um
00:37:15.980like steps and checks and balances that are available to us easily like more accessible
00:37:25.120courts and more transparent and friendly courts then going all the way to the end and saying you
00:37:30.660know they're they're uh that there's so much judicial advocacy um and activism which i don't
00:37:37.900necessarily disagree with but i like i do think it would be limited um if people can see it
00:37:44.700straight up um the other thing is and i think this is what happened during covid is we saw a lot of
00:37:54.980the faults in the system and now we're looking for a perfect system and i hate to break it to
00:38:03.220everybody watching but there is no perfect system um so it's all about being understanding first
00:38:10.820the problem so yes uh things went haywire over covid and the fact that we're still trying to
00:38:18.460get some redress it affects me personally every day um but the first place to with all of that
00:38:26.420would have been the political branch we re-elected in many cases the same people
00:38:34.100that imposed these mandates so to to turn to the court and say that that was the failure
00:38:40.740um i think that's the next step most of the issues we had were could have been
00:38:47.100should have been addressed politically in alberta we did see that happen premier jason kenney
00:38:55.440got ousted but look at what's happening he's like making a comeback and he's speaking this weekend
00:39:02.760at a conference and talking about Alberta independence it's like sorry you literally
00:39:09.720imposed health mandates that were found to be illegal so let's not sorry the microphone is
00:39:18.360no longer in in front of you and you don't have this moral high ground anymore so but we're still
00:39:25.780but he's still credible he still has them and people are still listening so that does not make
00:39:32.320sense to me uh the courts actually found there was an issue and yet still politically he has
00:39:40.700currency and that doesn't make sense to me because that's something that's where it's either the
00:39:47.980apathy or the misunderstanding of citizens i don't know how to fix that one um but that is
00:39:57.280very strange to me to say the least we've talked a little bit on this show about how it seems like
00:40:03.460um i i promise this is related um if you ever go to like a tim hortons in another country
00:40:09.840uh like there's lots in europe and there's lots in there's even some in asia and some in the u.s
00:40:14.600oh yeah okay and you'll find that actually the food in those tim hortons is actually excellent
00:40:19.040like it's it's it's very well made it's it's kind of catered to the local interests and the and it's
00:40:24.140it's high quality food and then we get served slop here because we'll buy it you know the
00:40:28.880canadians i think are have chronically low uh low standards and they are willing to accept
00:40:35.200uh the most bottom of the barrel stuff i don't know if it's out of a out of an um perceived need
00:40:41.600to be polite or accommodating or something like this but i think that bleeds into our politics
00:40:46.540where we're like you know the average person is like jason kenny i remember that name that's a
00:40:51.480politician's name you know and it you don't ever like get the the more in-depth conversation about
00:40:56.180that like another jace uh justin trudeau like running around right now with katie parry like
00:41:04.500he should be embarrassed we should have this canadians embarrassed him out of any uh social
00:41:11.040limelight and instead he's parading around the world and it it's nauseating like that's the
00:41:17.660that's my biggest frustration is when finally they're exposed and courts have ruled against
00:41:25.280their behavior and it's still like nothing happened so so I wouldn't put put it all on
00:41:32.540the courts that's for sure politically there needs to be a lot more accountability and what I love
00:41:39.220about what's going on is you really see citizens engaged on that aspect and I do hope that a lot
00:41:46.300more citizens get involved not just in this conversation but running and that's I think
00:41:54.180that's what we need there was this political class and kind of this elitist class and I actually was
00:42:00.940listening to Russell Brandt and Tucker Carlson and he just announced that he's going to be running
00:42:06.840for mayor of london in 2028 you see spencer pratt in uh los angeles running for mayor and like
00:42:14.800these are just regular people not at all like never interested in politics that are just like
00:42:21.620enough is enough people need to have a say this is not working this political class and elitist
00:42:28.440class is not doing us a favor so we have to start taking control here and and being the ones that
00:42:36.640are governing not just allowing ourselves to be governed. Eva I think you bring up so many good
00:42:42.800points and it reminded me of so in the 2023 provincial election I actually ran as an
00:42:52.180independent because my MLA was a huge Kenny supporter and during COVID I tried to reach
00:43:01.020him so many times to express some concern about you know what I was seeing happening to the young
00:43:05.600people in my life due to the mandates and the interruption in their education that type of thing
00:43:12.020I finally got a hold of my MLA and we kind of had it out because he was quite adamant that this was
00:43:20.720the best they could do that they were doing what they were supposed to do so it was really
00:43:25.100interesting when I ran you know I had the opportunity to go door to door and speak to people
00:43:30.460and so often i heard folks say and i hate to categorize anyone but it was mostly older people
00:43:38.760who said well they did the best they could and at that time when they would say that i would
00:43:45.560actually pull out the alberta government's pandemic plan which was sitting on their website during
00:43:53.160the whole thing in covid and i printed it off and i pulled it out and i said
00:43:57.640this was the plan and they ignored it like how do you feel about that and for a lot of people that
00:44:06.860was like oh my goodness I didn't even know that existed and when I brought it up to my MLA he
00:44:12.200didn't even know that existed yeah um and I'm afraid that you know like I know where I live0.98
00:44:19.040there's a lot of older people and they almost use it as a flex especially the women they'll say oh
00:44:26.700i don't talk about politics like as if it's that was some kind of a refined way to live or something0.54
00:44:34.280and i'm like do you understand that you have just basically and going back to your point
00:44:41.860about responsibility is the price of rights by by saying i don't talk about politics
00:44:48.900you have just given up your ability to defend your rights yeah because it's the politicians
00:44:57.700that are going that will do what we saw during covid that will run roughshod over those rights
00:45:03.700if we allow them to yeah and and once on that i i can understand the you know when people say i
00:45:11.560don't talk about politics because it's been so divided and really unpleasant but i'm trying to
00:45:18.520use the word civic engagement as much as i can because civic engagement is our responsibility
00:45:25.280in a democracy and if we're not engaged uh civically then we're not living in a democracy
00:45:31.020it's as simple as that so um maybe that's the way to frame it sometimes too because yeah politics
00:45:37.860has a lot of and and it has been dirty and it has been unpleasant and you know life is hard and and
00:45:45.060people play dirty so you have to understand that too that's part of politics but civic engagement
00:45:50.460on the side of citizens to say I don't get involved in that the other thing I would say is
00:45:55.600politics affects everything in our life how fast the speed zones are how what time you could go
00:46:04.100and have a drink at the restaurant what time airplanes are going in and out what is in our
00:46:12.020food like literally everything is affected so to say that you're not uh you don't talk about
00:46:21.200politics okay but it affects everything in your life so maybe i think that's key one question is
00:46:31.720then um how large of a government is necessary so it like do we need a bloated government
00:46:41.840to control pretty much every part of our lives or like what would a lean government look like and
00:46:49.180um i guess this is where a lot of albertans are they've observed a little bit of bureaucratic
00:46:58.040bloat in canada and kind of observing the tendency that once you have institutions
00:47:04.180they will grow above and beyond their original scope um maybe there isn't the same
00:47:12.340like use of kind of downsizing that the private sector is pretty ruthless when it comes to
00:47:19.400downsizing a company that is not necessary but government it seems like you have these um pseudo
00:47:27.100So these arms of the government that maybe they go unchecked, maybe they are left to just spend money and there's no good paper trail, there's no good accountability, and it's just wasted taxpayer money.
00:47:47.400So as the government gets larger, they have a larger capacity to interfere with their lives.
00:47:53.240So my question to you is, like, what is an ideal size and scope of a government then?
00:48:01.580Well, it's funny because, and I should have said this to Angela, when I had that conversation with David Redman, I always kept going to good governance.
00:48:16.360And I, again, don't have the answer, James.
00:48:19.600Obviously, I think that we need less government than more, and there's good reason for that.
00:48:27.540But again, my answer would be transparency and openness with our system.
00:48:34.280I just think it would make perfect sense, and I don't even know why we haven't demanded this more already,
00:48:42.540is all transactions should basically be public.
00:48:48.620It's public funds. That should be open and transparent immediately when an expense is being made by the public. It should be accessible to the public to see. Again, like I mentioned with the courts, there's some exceptions, but that should be the exception, not the norm.
00:49:07.120we shouldn't be begging the government to show us five years later what the spending is and then
00:49:13.900I think very quickly we could analyze whether or not some of the programs we have make sense or if
00:49:19.320we're getting the value for our money the other thing as we all know as individuals or a family
00:49:25.740we can't exceed our budgets but so why are we allowing the government to do that and this is
00:49:32.760the thing i think this goes to your point mike is the kind of slop i'm gonna use uh the word that
00:49:40.380we're getting is i think most canadians don't mind having social services and paying for those social
00:49:48.400services what i don't understand in canada right now is that we're paying very premium prices
00:49:54.540for public services that are basically garbage going to a hospital right now and it doesn't
00:50:03.460matter whether it's a NEP-led province or a conservative province our health care system
00:50:10.520is not in good shape at all and why why on earth are we okay with that why on earth are we okay
00:50:19.480with that the kind of spending that we're spending to get this kind of literal garbage um and i think
00:50:26.140that's the conversation we need to have and that's you'll get the answer very quickly when
00:50:33.600and there's there's already been quite a bit of assessments on showing how much for example in
00:50:39.560germany that this one lady susan martin chuck i think is her name um and she wrote in the calgary
00:50:46.880herald a number of articles that she was showing germany and canada spend this same amount i think
00:50:58.480it is and i might be getting it wrong now but there's 10 times more in administrative
00:51:04.220expenses in canada versus germany so that that's in germany it's going straight to services or
00:51:15.280doctors whereas in Canada it's going to bureaucracy so we don't even need to assess whether or not we
00:51:23.840need it we could see in Germany a more efficient and better system is working on less money so
00:51:30.260but those middle managers need to eat what's that those middle managers need to eat too
00:51:36.240yeah well the thing I would say too and it's not like I want to you know disparage these people
00:51:43.260but there's going to be other opportunities like that's the thing i don't get is when people are
00:51:47.500like well they need a job okay but there are other jobs that will be available and you know maybe we
00:51:54.540could actually talk about health in the healthcare system instead of just um reactive solutions so
00:52:00.860maybe some of those managers can do some of that well we we certainly have a problem in this in
00:52:07.320this country of um you know they sometimes talk about in social psychology um truth filters
00:52:14.340versus consensus filters how people parse information and um and i think we have a
00:52:21.400so so if for example somebody parses information through a truth filter they their primary concern
00:52:26.840when they hear a piece of information is is this is this piece of information true and then we can
00:52:31.460make a decision based on that value if it's true or false and then you have people who parse
00:52:36.860information through consensus filters and their their primary goal when they hear a piece of
00:52:41.120information is what will people think of me if I say that this information is true and so Canadians
00:52:48.240I think there still is a very high level of wanting to be perceived as what the they think
00:52:57.240the common perception of a good person is or a nice person or a kind person when often those
00:53:03.720um that is that is part of what causes the issue in the first place you know we we want to be
00:53:09.280nice we want to be accommodating we want everyone to have nice things and uh and we all want it to
00:53:14.100be free although we don't have it we don't have it to give we just don't have it to give that's
00:53:20.500right and so rather than acknowledging that yeah it's easier for people to live in the fantasy land
00:53:25.460yeah that's really interesting clearly i i don't live to through the consensus
01:08:12.300So by default, it couldn't have it. But if you look at the Alberta Bill of Rights, it has property right protection. And that's why we're hearing right now, I think Saskatchewan and Nineveh and Alberta are saying that federal government don't even think about it.
01:08:29.040gun owners are protected in provincially by their property rights. That's a property right
01:08:38.200that the province can regulate. And that's been a discussion that the federal and the provincial
01:08:44.620government have been having since the original firearms registration came into play, because
01:08:50.840the provinces were asserting authority. And obviously, it was Quebec often leading the
01:08:55.300charge saying we have authority and they've always been very strong about anything that
01:09:00.100was a provincial responsibility or even a shared provincial responsibility like immigration is that
01:09:06.720we don't need you federal government interfering other provinces have not been that strong
01:09:11.940in their um thank you but no thank you federal government so um that would explain why there's
01:09:20.600no mention of property rights in the charter in the canadian charter of rights and freedoms
01:09:24.720provincially in the alberta bill of rights it's there and there is good wording they did change
01:09:30.880it again and this is a conversation i think is very important because very freedom-minded people
01:09:36.460don't even want it to say because it says something like uh you have the right to your
01:09:41.100property unless uh and there must be due process if the government is going to take it in much more
01:09:48.880sophisticated language and that has to do with one of the first like basic things is when we want
01:09:55.440to create as a society as a public a road so the public has to acquire land from somebody to build
01:10:03.880a road or to build an airport or to build a hospital and so some people in the freedom
01:10:10.720community don't want the government to have any opportunity to take any rights even if there's
01:10:16.920due process and even if there's compensation but that will very much um cause a lot of problems
01:10:23.440when you're trying to build something for the public good so i i wouldn't suggest that that's
01:10:28.980the way to go and my earlier career was uh representing landowners when their land was
01:10:35.820being taken away by the government or uh oil and gas for the development of transmission lines or
01:10:43.580pipelines or the road when in the case of the government in Alberta and then transitioned into
01:10:49.820personal rights really more but that's a requisite and actually in Alberta the expropriation laws
01:10:57.020when the government is taking your land is quite good so again it's as long as we understand what
01:11:03.980the laws are ensuring that they're good that there's checks and balances but in Alberta the
01:11:11.900expropriation laws are quite strong compared to other provinces and again you could see what
01:11:17.480other jurisdictions are doing because it's clearly in every country land is taken away from
01:11:24.300the private privately in order to build public facilities so just whether that's done
01:11:30.860responsibly respectfully and people are compensated accordingly
01:11:35.480so that's a huge conversation in the freedom community and like i don't know i hope i've
01:11:43.720explained it but to me it makes sense that there has to be an opportunity of course the government
01:11:48.420shouldn't run wild and be like we're going to take all your property but there there has to
01:11:53.460be some kind of process in order to build a road yeah that makes sense and again a conversation we
01:12:01.680should be having because of course we you know it's my private property and I get and actually
01:12:08.100I'll just share this too is when I was doing a lot of that kind of work especially when it was
01:12:14.020farms and people had you know it was generations of farms and their land is being taken there's a
01:12:21.700whole grieving process that people go through but then in the end because the laws are pretty good
01:12:29.380generally you know they end up okay and then you know sometimes people were like oh that actually
01:12:35.300worked out and I was able now to have you know a house that was a bit closer to my children so you
01:12:41.960know things can work out as long as we have the right checks and balances and it's not just
01:12:47.760willy-nilly government intervention. So I'm going to throw this up from the wonderful
01:12:55.300kathy flett how do we hedge against powerful lobbies buying our politicians and subverting
01:13:02.600our rights and laws anyone have an answer
01:13:06.900conversations yeah well one thing i was gonna say too and maybe this would be a fun citizen
01:13:17.220engagement a citizen-led uh initiative because i get it that citizens are so annoyed when they're
01:13:24.680elected officials don't respond and you know it's like you're talking to a wall and this wasn't how
01:13:32.580things were before I actually worked I wasn't involved really politically but the MLA in my
01:13:38.820area was a lovely man and I was working in his constituency office when I was going to university
01:13:43.820and he had town halls open door policy at his constituency office he was out with the people
01:13:51.420all the time and I believe that was how elected officials used to be and it wasn't that long ago
01:13:57.080I was in university but now if you go to a constituency office you can't get in you have
01:14:05.180to make an appointment they have these constituency offices that I think are just there for an
01:14:10.620address but literally the elected officials aren't there I think a good citizen-led initiative would
01:14:17.500be that um elected officials have to make i don't know have to have open door policy every friday
01:14:27.240or i don't know something that could be thought up or 10 of the time they have to be in the
01:14:32.020constituency with available to the public so that they can respond and so i don't remember exactly
01:14:38.820what kathy's question was uh lobbying right because you should be able to lobby as yourself
01:14:46.620like so citizens when citizens don't have an opportunity to lobby or correspond or engaged
01:14:53.460with their own elected officials of course powerful lobbyists are the one they they have an
01:14:58.520opportunity to talk to the elected officials and we don't so i think that's part of how lobbyists
01:15:04.800got so strong too i could be incredibly naive saying that too but i also do know that not that
01:15:11.380long ago you could talk to elected officials i actually heard this one just breaks my heart is
01:15:19.360um there was this older lady in her 80s i met her in edmonton and she and her friend
01:15:25.220went to an mp in edmonton a 80 year old lady and uh they were talking to the staff uh the mp wasn't
01:15:34.180even there and they just said why do you have a um one of the pride flags because i don't think
01:15:40.340that represents me and they kicked her out like if if somebody can't even ask that question
01:15:48.840and she's a lovely 80 year old like you know culture has changed probably she's0.66
01:15:54.400like also we could be inclusive and kind to other people that have different views or don't
01:16:01.320understand or whatever but was kicked out of the office for asking that question
01:16:07.040i think that's wrong it is wrong somebody somebody has forgotten who's working for who
01:16:14.080yeah yeah yeah i i haven't had the best conversations but i think it's because i'm
01:16:21.400kind of loud and proud maybe like we know what you're gonna say anyway so my elected officials
01:16:27.640didn't in edmonton didn't really want to talk to me which is fine i get to talk to other people
01:16:32.060but other people shouldn't like i i i encouraged everybody um you know that was involved or
01:16:40.360supportive of the convoy and things like that to talk to their elected officials especially if they
01:16:46.120were on the other side and disparaging people they could have gone to their office or called
01:16:52.340them and say look i support supported these people i believe that they should have been able to
01:16:58.220protest whatever it is but instead what i found is if it was somebody from the other
01:17:03.380and even on the side that we're on which i don't even know sometimes which is which anymore
01:17:09.620um but they just didn't communicate those things really it was just i think um sometimes it's like
01:17:16.140well that's what's going on in the public sphere so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna engage one-on-one
01:17:20.280and i really think it's important to engage one-on-one and people to look in at each other
01:17:25.740in the eyes especially if these are elected representatives meant to represent everyone
01:17:31.260not just their own interests yeah i agree so there was a question or kind of a
01:17:40.380uh let's see if i can pull this up um so rosie said just like our taxpayers federation maybe
01:17:49.100we need a full-time group that will choose and organize questions and those like referendum
01:17:53.900questions and or um kind of something to be relayed back to the government um if if not for
01:18:02.460that um i've kind of been reflecting on the momentum that the alberta independence movement
01:18:09.740has had i would love to see that amount of town halls and this like this same size crowds and this
01:18:18.060same kind of week-to-week engagement even in a new Alberta like obviously we're leading up to
01:18:26.720a referendum but imagine if we had multiple different groups all advocating all amplifying
01:18:34.220all having conversations ways to connect with people that have concerns and like these groups
01:18:42.400don't need to be elected they can be they can just continue to exist on their own but that can be a
01:18:49.680a layer of accountability that isn't directly tied in with any specific like government structure
01:19:00.400yeah and uh just going back to the comment and i'm sorry but i will i will
01:19:06.560yeah it's just a little bit like well then that full-time group can do it for me
01:19:12.400so that's disincentivizing yeah and taxpayers foundation like they do great job but that
01:19:19.040doesn't mean that we don't have to and then if there's another group at and really we should all
01:19:26.300be you know doing those things so that's the one thing i would say and it's not it's not hard like
01:19:33.660um i met a woman this this last year that uh she was in one of the counties up north um where you
01:19:41.980know they came across some some new bylaws or something that was going to be put in place
01:19:46.500and it turned out it was just an absolute mess but she just kind of stumbled across it online
01:19:53.260and then called up some neighbors and was like did you guys know that this was happening anyways
01:19:58.620they ended up with like this permanent little group and it's just basically like an open door
01:20:03.840come to my house on friday morning and we're going to look at the agenda for the next or every other
01:20:09.440Friday for the next county council meeting and we're going to just talk about it over coffee and
01:20:16.260if we like what we see great and if we don't like what we see we're all just going to get on the
01:20:20.300phone real quick and it's made the huge difference in their county and it was just this very loosely
01:20:26.040put together neighbors talking to neighbors over coffee and then picking up the phone and calling
01:20:32.820their local counselor who just lives down the road and say you know what we're not cool with that
01:20:37.200like no you gotta change that just make sure you're not in a courtroom while you're discussing
01:20:41.640it over coffee yeah yeah well no don't do it there but actually that's the last another point
01:20:48.960that i do try to bring up as much as possible is how important it is to be involved locally and how
01:20:55.820quickly you can affect change locally and what you just said is so important the guy just lives down
01:21:03.240the street and he so they're going to be held to account they're going to see him in the grocery
01:21:09.940store and this is one point I don't know if I hear it that much uh in the independence over
01:21:16.200the discussion but when how often have you ever been in the same room or vicinity as Prime Minister
01:21:23.920Justin Trudeau uh Mark Carney I've had the opportunity to see and be in the same room as
01:21:32.140premier uh daniel smith once with jason kenney i'm not but like people are close you know you
01:21:42.860can't stumble across and see them mark carney will fly into edmonton for five minutes an hour
01:21:49.100and he's out so he doesn't have an opportunity to connect citizens don't have an opportunity
01:21:53.740to connect with them and i think having the opportunity to look people in the eyes and have
01:21:58.740that discussion and that is why we have elected representatives but as we talked about before they
01:22:05.080don't make themselves available that's a very big problem but I think local governance and having
01:22:09.740people governing you that are in closer proximity than not is so incredibly important as well
01:22:15.360because then it's kind of it's more proximal it's like you could just by chance see that person I
01:22:21.380actually ran into the mayor of Edmonton twice I think last year just by chance
01:22:27.440well and that's that is a huge part of one of my reasons for supporting about alberta independence
01:22:35.800is because just the proximity yeah of having a government closer to you you're less likely to
01:22:43.160have corruption and you're more likely to have a lot more transparency and that possibility
01:22:48.760and that accountability because yeah they are closer to you not only that but they're going
01:22:54.700to be more aware of the issues of the area of the region that need to be addressed yeah agreed
01:23:03.960yeah so important uh james do you want to pop up kathy's but um she just had a good one uh yeah
01:23:13.700i can kathy's hiding in the background so kathy's on fire we also need to ensure that we are not
01:23:19.540susceptible to the tyranny of the minority or the majority yeah because right now it almost seems
01:23:29.700like uh we're almost governed by the interests of special interest groups it's it's one special
01:23:38.580interest group pitted up up against another special interest group and you can essentially
01:23:43.700buy votes just by catering to a special interest yeah and you know i don't have the answer for that
01:23:53.060but one thing i mentioned and we haven't talked about is term limits you know that's just a easy
01:23:58.640way to kind of nip it in the bud if there's only a certain amount of time somebody can govern
01:24:05.460um then they just you know can't make decisions for a long time the question is to um you know
01:24:14.440and I think having that discussion about term limits is another like just an interesting topic
01:24:18.980because there's pros and cons to it um in Alberta you could see what happened earlier we we had um
01:24:27.300Ralph Klein for how many years and there was that dynasty but then you know that was good I think
01:24:34.160but then maybe that was a problem because then the secession after wasn't so great and there's
01:24:39.340been quite a bit of turn turnaround since so was that because there are no term limits i don't
01:24:46.640have the answer but certainly something that we should be having a conversation about and aware
01:24:51.660of do you think longer term limits would actually feed into that apathy and complacency
01:24:59.460in a sense like if you're running if it's just on like oh yeah we voted our guys in again
01:25:05.400are you less active now or is having more regular i guess like what what would invoke
01:25:15.040more participation shorter term limits or longer term limits and then the other question is
01:25:21.220what like how much of a managerial state do we have do we need does every part of government
01:25:28.880need a certain amount of expertise or is there enough in the framework that it runs without
01:25:34.480you needing like a surgeon level of skill just for that specific position
01:25:44.920i like the idea of you know there are some mlas who have had a career who are already experts
01:25:57.700in in their various you know whatever their wheelhouse was type of thing i'm thinking of
01:26:03.180one in particular that i i know personally because i'm related to him you know who was
01:26:07.180was an accountant and a tax lawyer and he's an mla now and he's able to bring that skill set
01:26:13.920in right so uh fantastic great you know um i think the problem is is that when you get these
01:26:23.340career politicians then you have to bring in other expertise because they don't have
01:26:29.020you know life experience or other skills to bring with them to their position as an mla
01:26:35.420i can think of a few of those that yeah are in that boat and i would add that i think that's
01:26:41.420where the the bureaucracy comes in and could could be very helpful as they have that expertise
01:26:46.800hopefully especially that that the bureaucracy wouldn't change in the same way and that's
01:26:52.320something I would wouldn't suggest and some people talk about that too is that there should be term
01:26:57.740limits for bureaucrats um again I like I don't know but it seems like that wouldn't make sense
01:27:07.160to me it's an interesting thought yeah because it's not well or maybe it would complicate things
01:27:16.640less but there has to be some consistency in you know the system and behind the scenes and
01:27:21.860knowing the ins and outs um i don't know whether that's an interesting question james i haven't
01:27:28.460put my mind to it either which is why i was hoping somebody else would get term limits whether that
01:27:33.500adds to apathy or not well they i know that they talk about sometimes in related to u.s politics
01:27:41.560about how you know people use terms like it sort of sounds conspiratorial but people talk about the
01:27:47.120deep state and um and i've heard you know guys like rfk jr and other other people involved in
01:27:53.620politics talk about what like truly the deep state is and it's essentially a managerial class of
01:27:59.720bureaucrats that just stay consistent over the years and you think you're electing new people
01:28:04.560to represent your interests and do you know exert the will of the populace but really it's the same
01:28:10.480unelected bureaucrats under the surface who are influencing and implementing those policies so
01:28:15.580So I don't know how you, I don't know how you control for that.
01:28:21.140Perhaps there could be a way to, you know, there's lots of ways that government can hide and move around money and influence by just saying like, you know, yes, you've elected this person to be the minister of agriculture or whatever.
01:28:35.900But if if the all of the contracts that this minister of agriculture is giving is, you know, goes to these unelected private enterprise bodies, you know, then like, what are we really doing here?
01:28:48.200You know, this is not a this is not an accurate reflection of public will.
01:28:51.460This is just a a, you know, an oligarchy of sorts.