The Culture War - Tim Pool - Catholics Are The SUPERIOR Christians, DEBATE w⧸ Jay Dyer, Tim Gordon, & The Lore Lodge

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00:02:03.080 So, uh, how long ago was this?

00:02:05.100 A couple months?

00:02:05.640 I can't remember.

00:02:06.180 We were hanging out here at the old Tim Cassidy's right before the show,

00:02:09.860 and I'd made a comment about fertility rates being low,

00:02:14.040 but among conservatives still around like 1.8,

00:02:16.620 to which I think it was Phil Labonte responded that Catholics have a higher

00:02:21.000 than replacement rate fertility at like 2.4.

00:02:23.900 And then I was like, is that true?

00:02:25.280 And Mary Morgan was also on the show,

00:02:26.740 and then I think she mentioned something about divorce rates are also really low.

00:02:30.680 And then I jokingly said, Catholics are the superior Christians.

00:02:34.120 And to which everyone chuckled, and I antagonistically said,

00:02:36.780 should I tweet that?

00:02:37.480 Because I just knew it would cause a storm, you know, a storm.

00:02:40.580 And then Mary and Phil both said, yes.

00:02:42.520 And I was like, okay, so I did.

00:02:44.340 And here we are now.

00:02:45.740 Do I have the, uh, we don't have the, oh, I can pull, well, whatever,

00:02:48.180 we don't have the tweet pulled up.

00:02:48.860 But now we're actually going to have that debate.

00:02:51.100 Because, uh, admittedly, I am a lapsed Catholic.

00:02:54.040 Uh, I was 10 years old when my family left the church, so what do I know?

00:02:57.980 So I brought in a handful of, uh, gentlemen to have this conversation, uh,

00:03:02.300 and have this debate over the religion, the denomination.

00:03:06.200 Uh, sir, would you like to introduce yourself first?

00:03:08.340 Yeah, Jay Dyer.

00:03:09.260 Uh, I host the Alex Jones Show.

00:03:11.240 I've done that for the last five years.

00:03:12.780 Uh, write for the Sam Hyde Show, uh, doing comedy.

00:03:16.000 Um, I've debated all the top atheists, Muslims that are out there,

00:03:19.460 and, uh, looking forward to this one.

00:03:21.480 Right on.

00:03:22.460 Uh, I am Aiden Mattis.

00:03:23.840 I am the host of The Lore Lodge,

00:03:25.560 the Weird Bible and History Unhinged on YouTube.

00:03:28.220 And I have not debated all that many people,

00:03:30.380 so this is going to be an interesting day for me.

00:03:33.320 I'm Timothy Gordon.

00:03:34.580 I'm the representative of the superior religion here today.

00:03:37.600 You know me from YouTube.

00:03:39.860 Rules for Retrogrades is the name of the show.

00:03:41.600 I'm the author of five books.

00:03:42.940 And I'm excited to defend your position that you meant totally literally today.

00:03:49.400 Can we just end with that?

00:03:51.220 So, uh, well, let's start with why it's not the superior religion.

00:03:53.760 Who wants to go first?

00:03:55.560 I'll go first.

00:03:56.680 Um, so I used to be Catholic.

00:03:58.460 Um, what are you now?

00:04:00.300 Uh, Orthodox.

00:04:01.080 I've been Orthodox for the past eight years, Orthodox Christian.

00:04:03.800 So, um, I think there's some key things that stand out as the reason why Catholicism is not superior.

00:04:11.440 One would be the contradictions that I think have occurred in Catholic dogma,

00:04:15.880 particularly after the first millennium.

00:04:17.900 You have the notion that the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop is necessary for salvation

00:04:23.060 from the time of Dictatus Pape in 1090 all the way up to 1302 Unum Sanctum.

00:04:28.540 So you have to believe that the Pope has basically Quisats Haderach type status.

00:04:33.000 He's the world emperor.

00:04:34.220 And if you don't believe that, you will lose your salvation.

00:04:37.180 So that was clear dogma in the middle ages.

00:04:39.980 Nowadays, post Vatican II, when we go to the documents of Vatican II, that is no longer

00:04:44.060 even mentioned.

00:04:45.100 In fact, it's de-emphasized.

00:04:47.140 And in fact, uh, many of the Vatican II popes have called for the de-Catholicizing of various

00:04:51.420 Christian states.

00:04:52.140 So one would be that there's a contradiction there.

00:04:55.240 Um, the relationship of the church to the other religions, for example, in the middle

00:04:59.200 ages, you have the condemnation of Muslims at the Council of the Inn as the abominable

00:05:03.340 sect of Muhammad.

00:05:04.980 Nowadays, post Vatican II, post, uh, uh, ecumenism, uh, post Noseratate, which are Vatican II documents,

00:05:11.900 not only is Islam a salvific religion, we can actually go and pray in the mosques towards

00:05:18.300 Mecca, which the last several popes have done exemplifying their faith.

00:05:22.720 Catholics can do that?

00:05:23.620 They can't now.

00:05:24.460 Oh.

00:05:24.620 Uh, there's also the Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi faith center, which has been built now.

00:05:28.580 And I'm sure Tim's going to take issue with whether you actually can, but the Vatican

00:05:31.820 II documents actually do promote, especially the Vatican II ecumenist documents, the notion

00:05:38.260 that we can participate with and engage in interreligious faith ceremonies and dialogue,

00:05:44.240 which is in direct contradiction to Mortellium Animos in 1929 from Pius XI, which says that

00:05:49.720 to do so is quote, the surrendering of the faith.

00:05:53.000 So these are a couple contradictions.

00:05:54.820 There's many more.

00:05:55.480 The death penalty has recently been changed according to, uh, Catholic catechism, uh, catechism.

00:06:00.860 Uh, now, according to Pope Francis, it is quote, contrary to the gospel.

00:06:04.260 If you go back to the catechism of Trent, it was said to be part of natural justice or natural

00:06:09.040 law.

00:06:09.400 So certainly nobody would believe that the papacy can change or alter natural law.

00:06:13.720 But is, is, is the implication, uh, then that the Orthodox church is static?

00:06:18.000 It doesn't change?

00:06:18.760 Yes.

00:06:18.980 We would argue that the first thousand years of Christianity, as you look at it from the

00:06:22.680 council's perspective and the canon law and the church father's teachings, that the Orthodox

00:06:27.100 church is absolutely synonymous with that church.

00:06:29.540 So it's, it's exactly the same as the first thousand years of Christianity.

00:06:33.080 Rome and the papacy is what has departed particularly in the 11th, 12th, 13th centuries.

00:06:36.880 What about you?

00:06:38.520 You're what, what, what denomination are you?

00:06:40.360 Uh, so I have been a Methodist for many years.

00:06:42.640 I've recently began inquiring into the Anglican Catholic church, which is not the Anglican

00:06:47.160 churches in the church of England, nor is it the Episcopal church.

00:06:49.440 It actually split off from that in, I want to say 1978 with, uh, the Episcopal church's

00:06:54.220 decision to begin ordaining women.

00:06:55.920 So it is a conservative Anglican theology.

00:06:58.860 And to be perfectly honest, I don't really disagree with much of what Jay just said.

00:07:03.140 Uh, our church largely does tie itself back to, uh, the pre 12th century Christian church

00:07:10.580 tries to emulate that.

00:07:12.240 And that's kind of the position of the Anglican Catholic church is we are not the one true

00:07:17.760 church.

00:07:18.140 We are not the perfect representation of Christianity.

00:07:21.580 We are doing our best to retain Christianity prior to councils like the council of Trent that

00:07:29.260 we felt changed the religion too much.

00:07:32.200 So like, like Jay said, it's very much the, the 11th century and back is what we consider

00:07:37.820 to be the, the unified church.

00:07:40.140 I have a, I have, I have a question, but I'm going to wait until you can set your position

00:07:43.260 on Catholicism.

00:07:45.800 Great.

00:07:46.620 Catholicism is the one true church.

00:07:48.760 We make this claim based on many premises, but the first ones are, uh, this indefectibility.

00:07:56.680 The church can never defect.

00:07:59.200 It won't defect.

00:08:00.180 Uh, our Lord promised that when the spirit of truth comes in scripture, he'll guide you

00:08:04.380 into all truth.

00:08:05.380 In John's gospel, gates of hell won't prevail against the church.

00:08:08.680 In Matthew's gospel, in first Timothy, the church of the living God is the pillar and

00:08:13.040 bulwark of truth.

00:08:14.480 And therefore our, our Lord is a liar if there is some change.

00:08:19.660 And, and, you know, this is a little bit funny because what I'm going to be doing is

00:08:23.700 talking about super specific church terms, religion terms with, with Jay today.

00:08:28.500 And then we'll be talking about, uh, more, more broad things because really Protestantism

00:08:34.900 isn't technically a religion.

00:08:36.700 It's a, it's a faith, but we can talk about things like the ecumenical councils, the first

00:08:41.200 seven ecumenical councils about which Orthodox and Catholic agree in something like four of

00:08:47.640 these first four ecumenical councils.

00:08:49.140 I'll, I'll read you chapter and verse, but the Orthodox, the Orthodox has a view of the

00:08:54.220 Pope, which is the church's view.

00:08:56.220 The church's second millennium view of the Pope and the Orthodox defected on this.

00:09:01.620 Now Protestants defected, um, they represent the soul of defectibility.

00:09:07.680 Indefectibility means that nothing's going to change.

00:09:10.420 Protestants are a religion that sprang forth from the earth, like Athena from Zeus's head

00:09:15.100 in the 16th century.

00:09:16.520 It's, it's proto-enlightenment, abstract rationalism that's vaguely pro-Jesus, but

00:09:21.860 Orthodox Catholic, uh, debates are, are, are more specific because we have to talk about

00:09:27.880 what the, the, at the very least, the first seven ecumenical councils, uh, require.

00:09:33.000 And the first, second ecumenical councils about which Jay and I agree, if you go to like

00:09:38.020 number three, Ephesus involves the Patriarch of Constantinople, the highest guy in their

00:09:44.260 second millennium church, uh, being, uh, fired by being requested to be fired by other Eastern

00:09:53.340 Orthodox guys like Cyril of Alexandria.

00:09:55.460 He, he writes the Pope and he says, can you excommunicate the Patriarch of Constantinople

00:10:00.820 Nestorius?

00:10:01.420 Because he's saying this absurdism, like, like unto what many Protestants say today,

00:10:06.800 that, that Mary's the mother of, uh, Jesus, but not God.

00:10:10.020 And so kind of like Dwight Schrute says in the office, if you are the guy that can, that's

00:10:15.380 actually boss, you can make a firing.

00:10:17.460 And tons upon tons upon tons of first millennium Eastern thinkers from the Eastern lung of the

00:10:24.900 church associated with Orthodoxy, but also Catholic saints like, uh, you know, the, the

00:10:30.080 Cappadocian fathers, all the Gregorys, St. Basil the Great.

00:10:33.820 They, they acknowledge the unity, the visible sign of unity that is represented on earth by

00:10:39.920 the Pope and the headship of the Pope to just tons upon tons of these guys and tons upon tons

00:10:46.820 of the councils.

00:10:47.380 Also, uh, Nicaea to Constantinople three, Constantinople four.

00:10:52.640 We kind of disagree with them about it.

00:10:54.140 And even the union of Florence at the council of Florence, which is an Amazon presents Lisa.

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00:11:58.160 Ecumenical council, it was called by an emperor.

00:12:01.940 A lot of people don't know this.

00:12:03.200 We had a reunification of the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, and it was a legit unification.

00:12:08.780 31 out of 33 bishops in whatever it was, 1439 of the Orthodox came and voted for unification,

00:12:17.320 including the Patriarch of Constantinople.

00:12:19.780 And then they went home, and essentially they were strong-armed into nullifying the unification.

00:12:26.940 So let's try and simplify as much as we can real quick to make this point, because I do have a question.

00:12:31.220 But the Orthodox argument is you want to stay true to the original view of Scripture and what it dictates,

00:12:40.220 and is the Catholic view that it can be updated and changed by the political structures of the religion?

00:12:47.460 Absolutely not.

00:12:48.200 I would say you have that reversed.

00:12:50.500 The Orthodox always, being centered in Constantinople, were close to the emperor.

00:12:56.240 The first thing Constantine did, you know, after he legalized Christianity with the Edict of Milan,

00:13:01.660 is he moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople.

00:13:04.600 He named the city after himself, which is a badass move.

00:13:06.880 Chad move is Tim City, Constantine City.

00:13:11.400 And so the Orthodox, over the remainder of the first Christian millennium,

00:13:16.280 they had the Patriarch of Constantinople, who would be elevated to the second most powerful under Rome eventually.

00:13:24.780 And they always had...they were next to the emperor.

00:13:28.660 And so they were always alongside the emperor.

00:13:32.040 And of course, there's multiple Orthodox churches, so they don't even agree on things like whether...they can't be one.

00:13:38.440 They can't be true to the gospel because they don't agree on things like whether you can have divorce,

00:13:43.000 whether you can have contraception.

00:13:44.280 Whereas the Roman Catholic Church, under the single, you know, sign of unity, the pope, which everybody hates,

00:13:52.180 they are kept together.

00:13:55.220 And the second millennium Catholic view of the pope is exactly what the first millennium view of the pope was.

00:14:00.720 But based on...

00:14:02.320 Reitzinger admits it's not.

00:14:04.040 So that...

00:14:04.880 He was a lefty.

00:14:05.980 Again, I'm not...you know, I don't follow any of the organized religions or anything like that.

00:14:09.860 But real quick, I'm just...the reason I ask the question is different popes have had different positions on cultural issues.

00:14:17.220 I think you mentioned the death penalty just now.

00:14:19.700 But there's also questions of gay marriage and abortion.

00:14:24.680 There's gay blessings that are allowed in the Francis' encyclical,

00:14:29.120 which was a change from the previous Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,

00:14:32.700 which is basically the successor to the Holy Office.

00:14:35.400 Yeah, I mean, and I'm not trying to be rude to Tim,

00:14:37.500 but Tim didn't actually mention or address any of the actual contradictions that I listed.

00:14:41.140 He came up with a list of sort of, I would say, equivocations on the way that different church fathers use the word head.

00:14:48.060 Basil, in his letters, for example, talks about the Bishop of Antioch being the head of the whole body,

00:14:53.040 the head of the world, because in his region, it was the chief sea, right?

00:14:58.200 Because he was dealing with the schism in Antioch.

00:15:00.960 So this flowery language a lot of times is used amongst many of the church fathers.

00:15:04.860 You have at the Seventh Ecumenical Council the phrase,

00:15:07.420 the gates of hell will not prevail against, and then guess what?

00:15:10.020 They use the emperor.

00:15:11.560 I don't think anybody believes that Matthew 16 is about the emperor.

00:15:14.120 But we can find in the Acts of the Councils, if you have like Price's books and whatnot,

00:15:18.000 multiple examples of this sort of language that's used.

00:15:20.560 But that doesn't equate to the idea of Vatican I.

00:15:22.700 And like Tim Bull said, not only do you have changes in practice or praxis,

00:15:27.540 such as the complete revolution in the most holy thing in the Roman Catholic Church, the liturgy itself,

00:15:33.440 you have a Protestantization after Vatican II, a liturgical revolution.

00:15:37.900 That's more important than other types of issues like, you know, can we have the death penalty?

00:15:43.600 I think for Roman Catholic theology, the liturgy itself is more important.

00:15:49.280 And the post-Vatican II popes have all enforced the dogma of the new mass.

00:15:55.040 In fact, Francis said in, I think, 2017, I have the reference if anybody wants to look and see,

00:16:00.380 but he said that the reforms of Vatican II are dogmatic, magisterial, and irreformable.

00:16:06.680 That means that you cannot reject any of the things of Vatican II that you don't like,

00:16:11.000 even if you want to debate the status of them.

00:16:12.780 So not only have the morals and the ideas changed and the dogma has changed,

00:16:17.760 even the worship of God has undergone a substantial Protestant change.

00:16:22.420 There's no dogma that's changed.

00:16:24.420 There's zero dogmas that have changed.

00:16:25.980 What about Unum Sanctum?

00:16:26.760 In the deposit of faith.

00:16:28.740 Unum Sanctum.

00:16:29.420 Wait, Unum Sanctum doesn't represent a dogmatic view.

00:16:33.440 What does that mean?

00:16:34.260 So he's...

00:16:34.660 Why is it in Denzinger?

00:16:36.820 It's necessary for salvation.

00:16:38.300 Denzinger is not the deposit.

00:16:39.580 What is that?

00:16:40.420 It's the collections of Catholic dogma, so it does include what is the normative dogma.

00:16:44.760 So how could you...

00:16:45.300 I think Tim's asking what Unum Sanctum is.

00:16:47.020 Unum Sanctum.

00:16:47.420 Unum Sanctum is the 1302 decree of Pope Boniface that to be saved,

00:16:53.140 not only must you be in communion with the Roman Pope,

00:16:55.780 you must also accept the Roman sees temporal supremacy,

00:17:00.580 that he is Quisatz Haderach, the Roman bishop is the emperor of emperors.

00:17:04.100 In fact, all the same terminology that's used in the first statement about this

00:17:08.000 in Dictatus Pape in 1090 is repeated, not only in Unum Sanctum,

00:17:13.460 but also all the way into the 1800s, into the syllabus of errors attached to Vatican I.

00:17:19.560 So you're telling me that from the 1300s, from 1100 to 1300,

00:17:22.720 all the way up to Vatican I and the syllabus of errors,

00:17:25.340 all the rejection that they had of the proposition that the church and the state could be separate,

00:17:30.560 and that you don't have to believe in the temporal supremacy,

00:17:32.500 that wasn't dogma, even though it was necessary for salvation.

00:17:35.180 Yeah, yeah. So what I would say to this is that the contradictions which inhere in the heart of

00:17:41.060 Orthodox Christianity, Tim, are more, are fundamental.

00:17:47.980 Are you going to address what I call it, or is that just too quote?

00:17:50.500 Yeah, no, this is really important because the so-called tensions, contradictions,

00:17:56.260 developments in things like two swords theory are not at the heart of what's considered doctrine.

00:18:06.100 There's reformable doctrine and irreformable doctrine.

00:18:09.700 And what I'm raising is...

00:18:10.940 Church's state is a doctrine? What about Merari Voss?

00:18:12.120 Because we're looking to people that are Protestant, we're talking to Orthodox.

00:18:16.540 The most important thing for the listeners out there is, if there's a head of the church,

00:18:22.740 then if there's a meaningful head of the church, then Roman Catholicism is true.

00:18:27.680 And this... So we have to start at the beginning.

00:18:29.340 Equivocation.

00:18:29.640 Literally, it's not equivocation. This is as direct as we can be.

00:18:33.140 If there's a head...

00:18:34.420 Is Antioch the head of the church?

00:18:36.300 Let's be specific to the actual councils about which we agree,

00:18:39.680 and that this is what Jay is going to be trying to avoid today,

00:18:42.280 is that the seven councils that they accept defines what the pope is

00:18:48.980 and the specific kind of headship, the visible sign of unity on earth that they are.

00:18:53.180 I'll read some to you in a second from Ephesus, from Nicaea II, from Constantinople III, IV.

00:18:58.640 If there's a pope that is a meaningful boss that is appealed to

00:19:03.880 with a kind of appellate supreme jurisdiction,

00:19:06.060 then Roman Catholicism has to be true,

00:19:08.640 because it's the only one of the three sects that represents this.

00:19:12.140 So listen to what was said at Ephesus, signed onto by the Orthodox.

00:19:16.580 Holy and blessed Peter, the prince and head of the apostles,

00:19:19.180 the column of faith, the foundation of the Catholic Church,

00:19:22.400 the prince of the apostles,

00:19:24.400 received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ,

00:19:27.560 and that to him was given the power of binding and loosing sins,

00:19:30.780 who until this day and forever lives and judges in his successors.

00:19:33.860 Now, what happened leading to the Third Ecumenical Council, Ephesus,

00:19:38.180 is you have this guy Nestorius that's teaching falsely,

00:19:41.820 he was the patriarch of Constantinople,

00:19:43.400 that Mary was mother to human Jesus but not God Jesus,

00:19:47.960 dividing his natures.

00:19:49.020 Lots of Protestants today say this.

00:19:50.660 Neither Orthodox nor Catholic have this.

00:19:52.020 I'm glad you clarified lots of Protestants, not Protestants.

00:19:54.700 Half or so.

00:19:55.140 Lots of evangelicals.

00:19:56.260 Dividing his person, not the natures.

00:19:58.560 The natures are divided, dividing the person.

00:20:00.540 Right, sorry, yeah, dividing his person, not the natures.

00:20:02.760 So Cyril of Alexandria writes the pope, writes the boss of the churches.

00:20:08.760 Early, early on, this is the exact view of the papacy

00:20:11.140 that the Roman Catholic Church has now.

00:20:12.940 It's a collegial first, but the Orthodox are going to hit you

00:20:16.600 with this idea that the pope was merely the first among equals.

00:20:20.640 This is one of those nonsense terms that would mean like a round table

00:20:24.560 where he's not actually appealed to,

00:20:25.980 he doesn't have a kind of appellate jurisdiction.

00:20:28.360 He would not be able to excommunicate any of the other patriarchs.

00:20:32.900 And so they write to him, and Cyril says to the pope,

00:20:36.020 we rely on the authority of the blessed apostle Peter,

00:20:38.640 on whom the church was founded,

00:20:41.020 and whose success of the blessed Celestine,

00:20:43.140 who was pope at the time, is.

00:20:44.240 He also says, your holiness, who holds the place of Peter,

00:20:46.960 the prince of the apostles,

00:20:48.940 has rightly judged this matter and condemned the stories.

00:20:51.520 Now, what Jay and the Orthodox have to say

00:20:53.880 is that it's a merely honorary position,

00:20:56.260 but he could fire people.

00:20:58.020 Well, like you would tell Dwight.

00:20:59.040 Can I address that?

00:21:00.160 I just want to cut it.

00:21:01.600 I mean, I think the term prince here is very important

00:21:04.420 because a prince is not an emperor.

00:21:06.560 A prince is not a king.

00:21:07.640 A prince is first citizen.

00:21:09.620 Princeps.

00:21:10.060 That's what the word meant.

00:21:11.060 Prince has prerogative.

00:21:12.300 Prerogative goes with prince.

00:21:13.160 Sure, but what the Orthodox...

00:21:14.520 They're appealing to his prerogative.

00:21:15.840 But what the Orthodox position is,

00:21:17.100 and what the Protestant position is historically,

00:21:19.480 is that the pope has primacy.

00:21:22.280 He is first among equals.

00:21:24.200 That does not mean that he gets to unilaterally

00:21:27.080 make decisions in the objection to the other pope.

00:21:31.800 Well, that runs foul of Ephesus.

00:21:34.080 I'll read you in Nicaea 2 after Jay says something.

00:21:36.040 I'll read you in Nicaea 2.

00:21:37.060 To answer his claim from Ephesus

00:21:39.100 and the idea of an appellate jurisdiction,

00:21:41.140 everyone is well aware of this.

00:21:42.480 In fact, the Vatican itself has a great commentary

00:21:44.540 on the meaning of this appellate structure

00:21:47.520 in the recent document from Chi-80,

00:21:50.380 which is a Vatican-approved document

00:21:51.780 on exactly what was going on.

00:21:52.620 It's not authoritative, though.

00:21:53.540 It's an approved document.

00:21:55.500 So this is what Rome nowadays says.

00:21:57.520 Tim doesn't like what Rome says nowadays,

00:21:59.180 but this is what...

00:21:59.680 It's not dogmatic.

00:22:00.600 It doesn't matter,

00:22:01.640 because this is what Rome says nowadays.

00:22:03.080 It's not a church document.

00:22:04.140 It's dogmatic when it's committed.

00:22:05.420 It's dogmatic.

00:22:06.540 Your quote, mine isn't dogmatic either,

00:22:08.360 so allow me to...

00:22:09.900 It is.

00:22:10.180 Just real quick,

00:22:10.700 this is one of the most esoteric debates ever.

00:22:13.060 It's going to be.

00:22:14.460 There are even Christians of each denomination

00:22:16.000 being like,

00:22:16.420 what are they talking about?

00:22:17.520 So what Rome nowadays says about this

00:22:19.680 is that Sardica was received

00:22:21.660 at the Council of Trello.

00:22:22.840 The canons of Sardica determined

00:22:23.980 that a bishop who has been condemned

00:22:25.440 can appeal to the bishop of Rome

00:22:27.600 and that the latter,

00:22:28.420 if he likes it or deems it appropriate,

00:22:30.380 can order a retrial.

00:22:31.940 Notice it is not a unilateral statement,

00:22:34.560 very contrary to the exact

00:22:35.640 to the reading that you gave of it.

00:22:37.020 He can order a retrial

00:22:37.920 to be conducted by the bishops

00:22:39.300 in the province neighboring that bishop.

00:22:41.880 It is not Rome unilaterally deciding it,

00:22:44.720 totally contrary to the reading

00:22:45.900 that he gave of it.

00:22:46.580 And then it says,

00:22:47.540 such appeals...

00:22:48.900 It doesn't matter.

00:22:49.640 Such appeals to major C's

00:22:51.580 were always treated in a synodal way.

00:22:54.060 Appeals to the bishop of Rome

00:22:55.320 from the East

00:22:55.980 expressed the communion of the church,

00:22:57.920 but Rome did not exercise

00:23:00.180 canonical jurisdiction

00:23:01.320 over the churches of the East.

00:23:03.500 So when Athanasius gets appeals

00:23:05.200 to excommunicate people,

00:23:07.080 does that make Athanasius

00:23:08.340 the head of the church?

00:23:09.160 Of course not.

00:23:09.740 C's 80 is not a church stop, though.

00:23:12.300 It doesn't matter

00:23:13.260 because it's Rome's present statement

00:23:15.000 on what your church's tradition is.

00:23:16.700 These are in the air.

00:23:17.900 So this is what happens.

00:23:18.640 Pick and choose the documents

00:23:19.760 that you don't like.

00:23:20.580 So this is Rome...

00:23:21.560 Documents have an ordering.

00:23:23.440 So 10 does more

00:23:23.640 than the Roman theologians now

00:23:25.180 because Rome actually says

00:23:26.300 what I'm saying

00:23:26.900 about appellate jurisdiction.

00:23:29.660 We understand there's

00:23:30.340 a difference of opinion.

00:23:31.120 There's a retrial.

00:23:32.360 Can you name a single scholar

00:23:33.740 that talks about this

00:23:35.000 that doesn't have the C's 80 view?

00:23:37.180 Oh, yeah.

00:23:37.960 Yeah.

00:23:38.540 All of the scholars

00:23:39.580 who aren't with communion.

00:23:40.600 All of them.

00:23:41.060 Name one.

00:23:41.700 That is not one.

00:23:43.120 Can you name one?

00:23:44.100 Let me see.

00:23:44.580 Say Nicaea 2.

00:23:45.880 Scholars aren't the mind

00:23:46.800 of the church, by the way.

00:23:47.820 Really?

00:23:48.160 I'm talking about dogma.

00:23:49.700 What hasn't changed.

00:23:50.700 You mean like the three dogmas

00:23:51.640 I listed that you didn't address?

00:23:52.620 Dogma, Nicaea 2.

00:23:53.020 The contradictions you didn't address?

00:23:54.640 Those weren't dogmas.

00:23:55.840 Nicaea 2.

00:23:56.980 Dogma's on the crystal.

00:23:57.940 You've got a book

00:23:58.280 of dogmas in there.

00:23:59.060 Unum sanctum.

00:23:59.940 Unum sanctum,

00:24:01.180 all the way up

00:24:01.860 until syllabus of errors

00:24:03.120 is necessary for salvation,

00:24:04.860 and it's not dogma.

00:24:05.700 But we're talking about

00:24:06.360 the first seven councils.

00:24:07.400 Let's get to Unum sanctum.

00:24:08.820 I'm talking about the competition.

00:24:09.800 The reason I'm talking about it

00:24:10.740 is because, Jay,

00:24:11.960 because the most fundamental thing

00:24:14.300 is deflection.

00:24:15.120 If the first seven councils

00:24:16.180 disagree with the current position

00:24:17.560 of the church,

00:24:18.200 they don't.

00:24:18.960 But see, the trick is this.

00:24:20.360 So what we have is

00:24:21.240 all you've done

00:24:22.280 is quote my papacy.

00:24:23.440 All you've done

00:24:23.720 is quote my papacy.

00:24:24.780 You have 39,000 secs.

00:24:26.580 No, we don't.

00:24:27.080 There are over 39,000 secs.

00:24:28.140 Okay, no.

00:24:29.120 No, we don't.

00:24:30.140 There are 14

00:24:30.720 autocephalist churches.

00:24:31.940 That is completely made up.

00:24:32.260 There are 14 autocephalist churches.

00:24:33.880 So the tension resides in...

00:24:37.020 Do you know where

00:24:37.420 autocephalist comes from?

00:24:38.040 They're 14.

00:24:38.640 Do you know where it comes from?

00:24:39.260 Yes, I do.

00:24:39.500 Where?

00:24:39.980 Where?

00:24:40.560 So autocephalist churches,

00:24:42.260 they are relatively unified

00:24:44.340 with respect to themselves.

00:24:45.400 My church predates

00:24:46.040 what counts all of this.

00:24:47.420 When you have a visible sign

00:24:48.580 of unity,

00:24:49.300 when you have one

00:24:50.100 holy Roman Catholic church,

00:24:51.580 the four marks of the church,

00:24:52.760 this comes from Nicaea 1.

00:24:54.200 When you have one,

00:24:55.440 there's, of course,

00:24:56.440 this is what they're playing on.

00:24:57.460 It's a strong rhetorical position.

00:24:59.380 Naturally, there's going to be

00:25:00.760 lots of disparity

00:25:01.720 within the religion.

00:25:02.560 And so documents have to be

00:25:04.260 ordered hierarchically.

00:25:05.840 What's called the depositum fide,

00:25:07.460 what never changes in the church,

00:25:09.980 best represented in real time

00:25:11.480 by something called

00:25:12.060 the Acta Apostolic Assetis,

00:25:13.820 is something that is airtight.

00:25:16.580 And there are tons and tons

00:25:17.920 of liberal scholars

00:25:19.040 since Vatican II,

00:25:20.380 since Vatican I,

00:25:21.380 that present opinions

00:25:22.780 that they light on.

00:25:23.900 Francis is probably

00:25:25.360 the worst pope we've ever had

00:25:26.680 that do not make it

00:25:28.160 into the Acta Apostolic Assetis

00:25:29.840 and certainly don't make it

00:25:30.940 into the deposit of faith.

00:25:32.140 I thought we'd come here

00:25:33.140 and talk about the first seven councils

00:25:34.860 because it's that

00:25:35.660 which we agree about.

00:25:36.760 And Nicaea 2,

00:25:37.840 let me just get this out.

00:25:39.200 It says this,

00:25:40.120 if you think that I was

00:25:41.340 quote mining Ephesus, Jay,

00:25:42.940 primational authority

00:25:44.040 everywhere on earth

00:25:44.820 was given by the Redeemer

00:25:46.500 of the world himself,

00:25:47.580 Jesus,

00:25:48.180 to the blessed Apostle Peter.

00:25:49.600 Through the same Apostle,

00:25:50.940 the Holy Catholic

00:25:51.680 and Apostolic Roman Church

00:25:52.940 has held till now

00:25:54.160 and will hold for all time

00:25:55.520 primacy and sovereign authority.

00:25:57.360 So you have the lineage there,

00:25:59.240 it's for all time,

00:26:00.380 it's primacy,

00:26:01.200 it's sovereign authority.

00:26:02.220 If there's a head of the church

00:26:03.400 that can fire other guys,

00:26:05.220 then this is the kind of pope

00:26:06.760 that the Roman Catholic Church

00:26:08.040 describes as the bishop of Rome.

00:26:09.040 I have a huge objection to this.

00:26:10.220 First of all,

00:26:10.900 Pope Vigilius

00:26:11.740 at the Fifth Ecumenical Council

00:26:13.840 in the Acts of Constantinople II,

00:26:16.260 the council decrees

00:26:17.320 that he be excommunicated

00:26:18.700 and removed from the diptychs.

00:26:20.560 Vigilius submitted to the council.

00:26:22.120 Does that sound like

00:26:23.160 an autocratic position

00:26:24.900 or does it sound like

00:26:25.720 the council's above the pope?

00:26:26.720 It's collegial.

00:26:27.500 No, it's not.

00:26:28.400 No, the pope is collegial.

00:26:29.920 This is exactly what

00:26:30.820 Vatican I says.

00:26:31.720 Vatican I says that the pope

00:26:32.660 Vatican I says that the pope

00:26:33.780 has a collegial relationship

00:26:35.860 to the rest of the bishops.

00:26:36.900 But does it say that he relies

00:26:38.140 on the church to do it?

00:26:38.920 No.

00:26:39.220 Or can he act autocratically?

00:26:39.620 Vigilius 1 submitted to the pope,

00:26:42.100 same as, you know,

00:26:43.060 I mean, if we even get into the pope.

00:26:44.500 Vigilius was the pope.

00:26:45.240 People aren't going to follow this,

00:26:46.060 but the filiocque.

00:26:47.200 Vigilius submitted to the council,

00:26:48.160 not the pope.

00:26:49.380 Yeah.

00:26:50.300 Vigilius was excommunicated

00:26:51.860 by the council.

00:26:52.920 Right.

00:26:53.200 According to Richard Price's.

00:26:54.600 The pope submitted to the council.

00:26:55.980 You said, yeah,

00:26:57.360 That is not Vatican I view.

00:27:00.400 Would the pope submitting

00:27:01.100 to the council not prove

00:27:02.740 that the council has authority

00:27:03.900 over the pope?

00:27:05.600 It proves that the pope

00:27:06.120 bears a collegial relationship.

00:27:08.240 Vatican I says that the council

00:27:09.900 is not above a pope.

00:27:11.140 You know that.

00:27:11.660 Of course.

00:27:12.240 It's not above a pope.

00:27:13.280 Then why is Vigilius submitting?

00:27:14.540 Because everyone else,

00:27:16.140 Protestants and Orthodox,

00:27:17.460 misunderstand what the pope's primacy is.

00:27:19.960 That seems quite convenient

00:27:20.800 to the Catholic argument.

00:27:21.860 Exactly.

00:27:22.260 Well, it is.

00:27:23.080 Well, it's highly inconvenient

00:27:24.300 to the Catholic argument

00:27:25.220 that you misunderstand it.

00:27:26.400 The pope's relationship

00:27:28.040 to all of the other churches

00:27:30.640 is specifically this.

00:27:33.880 He is, sorry,

00:27:35.760 to the bishops is this.

00:27:36.840 He's collegial.

00:27:37.600 He has this ex cathedra power

00:27:39.800 to declare infallible truth

00:27:43.060 when and only when

00:27:44.960 he makes the claim.

00:27:46.220 And most of the time,

00:27:47.000 the only two times

00:27:47.700 we know that he's used the power

00:27:49.140 in the last thousand years,

00:27:50.600 everyone misunderstands it.

00:27:51.960 What he did first

00:27:53.500 in 1854

00:27:54.600 and then in 1950

00:27:56.920 is he pulled all the bishops

00:27:58.440 of the world

00:27:59.020 to make sure

00:28:00.000 that this ex cathedra power,

00:28:01.740 which is not oracular,

00:28:03.000 he's not divining out of his head

00:28:04.560 magical truths

00:28:05.620 that have never been taught.

00:28:06.640 The pope,

00:28:07.300 because the Roman Catholic Church

00:28:08.600 is the one church

00:28:09.320 that goes all the way

00:28:10.220 back to Scripture,

00:28:11.480 the pope wants to make sure

00:28:12.440 that bishops always

00:28:13.500 and everywhere

00:28:14.360 have taught

00:28:15.520 the Immaculate Conception.

00:28:16.880 How does this answer

00:28:17.500 the objection?

00:28:18.120 Have taught.

00:28:18.760 Also, how does your church

00:28:20.540 alone go back to Scripture?

00:28:22.100 You see the distinction though, Tim?

00:28:23.480 So when the pope says,

00:28:24.800 I'm going to say something

00:28:25.360 ex cathedra

00:28:26.020 and everyone goes apeshit,

00:28:27.160 they think that he's divining

00:28:28.860 out of his head.

00:28:29.000 This is a deflection.

00:28:29.840 When he's in his special chair,

00:28:31.820 he's infallible?

00:28:32.420 The pope has a collegial

00:28:33.820 relationship to the bishops,

00:28:35.000 but he's their boss.

00:28:36.920 I got questions.

00:28:37.680 Then he can't be fired

00:28:39.740 if he's their boss.

00:28:40.840 And that's exactly

00:28:41.520 what happens with Vigilius.

00:28:42.520 It's more like the board

00:28:43.420 of a company firing the CEO.

00:28:44.920 Vatican I says that

00:28:45.700 the pope is not superior

00:28:47.000 to a council.

00:28:48.020 He doesn't submit

00:28:48.740 to the council.

00:28:49.500 Okay, let me ask.

00:28:50.140 You said it?

00:28:51.000 You said it?

00:28:51.280 Okay, I got a question.

00:28:52.180 I'm not a Catholic.

00:28:52.900 I got no idea

00:28:53.480 what half the stuff you got.

00:28:54.240 You're saying all these

00:28:54.700 Latin things and everything.

00:28:56.420 You said the pope

00:28:57.380 can decree infallible truth.

00:28:59.220 Am I wrong?

00:28:59.760 Is that what you said?

00:29:00.920 Yes.

00:29:01.200 When he speaks

00:29:01.780 from his special chair.

00:29:02.820 From pastor.

00:29:03.820 So if he's in his,

00:29:05.720 is it actually a special chair

00:29:06.780 or like what is it?

00:29:07.920 Ex cathedra means

00:29:08.860 from the chair.

00:29:09.800 So from the chair,

00:29:10.880 he can declare something

00:29:11.920 to be true.

00:29:13.180 Like if he said,

00:29:14.240 like gay or marriage

00:29:15.140 is never a thing.

00:29:16.900 Is that an example

00:29:17.860 of what he might say?

00:29:18.900 Yeah.

00:29:19.340 He could also say

00:29:20.040 the opposite

00:29:20.500 and he would have

00:29:21.140 to respect it.

00:29:22.200 Right, and here's the proof.

00:29:23.940 That's something

00:29:24.880 ex cathedra has never

00:29:26.000 been declared

00:29:26.540 that wasn't held

00:29:27.460 from all time

00:29:28.260 the beginning of the church

00:29:29.580 which is,

00:29:30.640 I didn't really get it out.

00:29:32.420 When the pope

00:29:32.920 has made ex cathedra claims,

00:29:35.160 there are things

00:29:35.700 that he pulled

00:29:36.580 the bishops on first

00:29:37.640 to prove that Vatican I

00:29:38.980 was not a new

00:29:40.000 Lone Ranger view

00:29:40.840 of the pope.

00:29:41.760 He's not an autocrat.

00:29:43.040 It's just a quick way

00:29:44.380 of safeguarding

00:29:45.080 something that was

00:29:45.580 always taught.

00:29:46.180 The bishops say,

00:29:47.220 yeah, this is

00:29:47.480 he did claim

00:29:49.440 to be an autocrat.

00:29:50.300 He fully claimed that.

00:29:51.400 To clarify,

00:29:52.100 my point,

00:29:53.560 he is not deciding

00:29:55.460 that he wants

00:29:56.120 gay marriage

00:29:56.520 when he says it.

00:29:57.380 He is sitting in the chair

00:29:58.160 and saying

00:29:58.660 what the church believes

00:29:59.880 based on what the church believes.

00:30:01.200 Is that your point?

00:30:02.060 Well, the church

00:30:02.700 doesn't have gay marriage.

00:30:03.780 Never has.

00:30:04.300 Never has.

00:30:04.480 My point is,

00:30:05.580 if the pope went

00:30:06.720 to a chair and said

00:30:07.580 there is no gay marriage,

00:30:09.140 it's not that he's deciding it.

00:30:10.300 He's saying this is what

00:30:11.860 the church has always

00:30:13.160 held to be true.

00:30:13.960 Precisely.

00:30:14.480 Yeah.

00:30:14.960 And that's what everyone

00:30:15.940 misunderstands

00:30:16.840 at Pastor Eternus

00:30:18.180 Vatican I.

00:30:19.160 The most important thing

00:30:20.060 about—

00:30:20.320 Hold on real quick.

00:30:21.140 Sorry.

00:30:21.780 And then it would sound to me

00:30:22.760 the issue of removing

00:30:24.400 a pope would be

00:30:25.240 if he was clearly

00:30:26.280 stating things that were

00:30:27.200 fallible untruths

00:30:28.520 from the chair.

00:30:29.320 Well, the first question,

00:30:30.200 yes, correct,

00:30:30.820 is the notion

00:30:31.800 of that authority,

00:30:32.820 whether he actually

00:30:33.380 possesses the

00:30:34.500 Vatican I authority

00:30:36.100 that Tim is reading

00:30:37.300 back into the many

00:30:39.360 examples that

00:30:40.180 contradict his reading.

00:30:41.580 For example,

00:30:42.620 Pope Vigilius

00:30:43.260 is literally excommunicated

00:30:44.420 and suspended

00:30:45.100 at the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

00:30:46.640 That's from Richard Price,

00:30:47.880 the famous Catholic scholar's

00:30:49.280 translation of

00:30:50.200 the Acts of the Council.

00:30:52.840 And so,

00:30:53.620 the argument is not

00:30:54.700 that the pope

00:30:55.760 has no relationship

00:30:57.140 to the bishop,

00:30:58.020 so he deflected

00:30:59.020 and defeated a straw man.

00:31:00.860 The argument is that

00:31:01.800 at the time

00:31:03.160 of the Fifth Ecumenical Council,

00:31:04.600 the pope submitted to

00:31:06.560 and was excommunicated

00:31:07.760 by the council,

00:31:09.280 and then now

00:31:10.340 at Vatican I

00:31:11.160 it says the literal opposite,

00:31:12.880 that no council

00:31:14.060 is above

00:31:14.740 or can fire the pope.

00:31:16.520 So it's a complete

00:31:17.160 contradiction,

00:31:17.980 and it's not just Vigilius.

00:31:19.660 Tim said in his

00:31:20.260 opening statement

00:31:20.880 that the church

00:31:22.800 via the Roman See

00:31:24.020 cannot defect.

00:31:25.160 If it could,

00:31:25.660 it would lose

00:31:26.060 one of its constituent

00:31:26.900 components,

00:31:27.920 and yet,

00:31:28.620 at the next

00:31:29.580 Ecumenical Council,

00:31:30.480 the Sixth Council,

00:31:31.480 Pope Honorius famously

00:31:32.460 is a heretic.

00:31:33.440 He did defect.

00:31:34.140 All he did

00:31:34.640 was write one letter

00:31:35.500 that contained

00:31:36.000 heretical statements,

00:31:37.100 and the church

00:31:37.740 at that council

00:31:38.880 said he is a heretic,

00:31:40.400 he's defected,

00:31:41.520 and then three

00:31:42.160 subsequent councils

00:31:42.960 after also reaffirmed

00:31:44.520 that condemnation.

00:31:45.380 So again,

00:31:46.260 indefectibility,

00:31:47.740 the notion of authority

00:31:49.220 is all fluctuating

00:31:51.040 and elastic

00:31:51.640 depending upon

00:31:52.400 what Tim needs

00:31:53.160 to be the case

00:31:53.740 at the time,

00:31:54.340 and his only answer

00:31:55.300 was a two-quote,

00:31:56.260 and he didn't address

00:31:57.140 any of the things

00:31:57.680 that I read.

00:31:58.020 It wasn't a two-quote.

00:31:59.440 It was.

00:32:00.060 You said orthodox

00:32:00.960 have worst problems.

00:32:01.600 I want to build on

00:32:01.620 what he just said.

00:32:02.000 Orthodox have worst problems.

00:32:03.080 That's a two-quote.

00:32:03.800 I want to build on

00:32:04.660 what he just said,

00:32:05.480 too,

00:32:05.640 because if Honorius

00:32:07.060 had declared

00:32:08.280 monothelitism

00:32:09.260 ex-cathedra

00:32:10.020 to be the truth,

00:32:10.900 what would you

00:32:11.520 have to believe?

00:32:12.480 Well,

00:32:12.780 the claim of the church

00:32:14.360 is that the church

00:32:15.240 is indefectible.

00:32:16.160 This is Christ's promise.

00:32:17.300 No.

00:32:18.140 Roman see is indefectible.

00:32:19.600 Vatican 1 says

00:32:20.160 the Roman see

00:32:20.820 is indefectible.

00:32:21.560 Okay,

00:32:21.820 the Roman see

00:32:22.440 is indefectible

00:32:23.240 insofar as

00:32:24.260 this requires interpretation.

00:32:26.480 What if you get

00:32:27.040 an Honorius?

00:32:28.140 What if you get...

00:32:29.080 Correct.

00:32:29.340 Yeah.

00:32:29.980 What if you get an Honorius?

00:32:30.760 It's a system that...

00:32:32.620 Theological opinion,

00:32:33.900 whether we're going to

00:32:34.700 Suarez or Bellarmine

00:32:36.080 or Francis Xavier,

00:32:37.660 theological opinion

00:32:38.520 can vary on this

00:32:39.740 because what happens then?

00:32:42.800 Obviously,

00:32:43.400 we know the church

00:32:44.060 has to be one.

00:32:44.960 It's got to be holy.

00:32:45.860 It's got to be Catholic.

00:32:47.120 It's got to be apostolic.

00:32:48.240 Or maybe it's just

00:32:48.800 not the Roman church.

00:32:49.620 Why does it have to

00:32:50.500 respect the pope

00:32:51.800 as the Roman prince?

00:32:52.840 Let me get it out.

00:32:53.460 Ephemeral prince.

00:32:53.820 I don't want to talk

00:32:54.720 to two barking dogs,

00:32:55.960 so let me get it out.

00:32:58.100 We have to make

00:32:58.800 these things really clear first.

00:33:00.400 Judd Nelson's getting mad.

00:33:02.360 More of a bobcat, really.

00:33:04.760 Nicaea II.

00:33:06.060 Primational authority everywhere.

00:33:07.740 What does this mean to you,

00:33:09.940 Tim,

00:33:10.320 if you were to hear

00:33:11.220 Constantinople III?

00:33:12.900 Because if the claim

00:33:14.940 is that I'm expanding

00:33:15.900 upon the view,

00:33:17.340 you know,

00:33:17.520 the Catholic view

00:33:18.220 of what the Orthodox view

00:33:20.420 of popes might have been

00:33:21.240 in the first millennium,

00:33:22.100 then just explain

00:33:23.180 what this language means.

00:33:24.860 That the church

00:33:28.020 has never erred

00:33:28.580 from the path

00:33:29.120 of the apostolic tradition,

00:33:30.300 nor she's been depraved

00:33:31.420 by yielding

00:33:31.960 to heretical innovations,

00:33:33.060 but from the beginning

00:33:34.000 she has received

00:33:34.620 the Christian faith

00:33:35.560 from her founders,

00:33:37.160 the princes of the apostles

00:33:38.220 of Christ,

00:33:38.760 and remains undefiled

00:33:39.820 to the end

00:33:40.380 according to the divine promise

00:33:41.660 of the Lord

00:33:42.100 and Savior himself.

00:33:43.620 Now, because there are

00:33:44.780 bad popes in history.

00:33:46.700 There are lots of them.

00:33:47.440 We've had 267.

00:33:48.780 No, heretics.

00:33:48.940 Not just bad.

00:33:49.720 Heretics.

00:33:50.640 But you have to

00:33:51.580 differentiate between,

00:33:53.080 which no one

00:33:53.540 in this audience,

00:33:54.480 10% at most will know,

00:33:56.040 between material

00:33:57.160 and formal heretics,

00:33:58.800 right,

00:33:59.120 which is going to take

00:33:59.740 another five minutes.

00:34:00.500 I'm not going to get out

00:34:01.140 what I want to say

00:34:01.800 because I'm defending

00:34:02.480 this position.

00:34:03.460 Look at Constantinople 4.

00:34:05.140 You can't have

00:34:05.640 material heretics.

00:34:06.440 You can't have

00:34:06.900 formal heretics.

00:34:08.420 Constantinople 4,

00:34:09.060 what does this mean to you?

00:34:09.920 This is the 879 version.

00:34:13.740 It was originally convened

00:34:14.920 in 869.

00:34:15.920 That's the Catholic version.

00:34:16.760 I'm reading

00:34:17.180 from the Orthodox document.

00:34:18.520 Listen to this.

00:34:19.160 What do you do with this?

00:34:20.880 For Jesus is the apostolic throne,

00:34:22.440 having received the keys

00:34:23.500 of the kingdom of heaven

00:34:24.460 from the first

00:34:25.220 and great high priest,

00:34:26.340 Jesus Christ,

00:34:27.480 through the chief

00:34:28.280 of the apostles,

00:34:29.060 Peter.

00:34:29.580 He has the authority

00:34:30.920 of universal binding

00:34:32.280 and loosing.

00:34:33.220 Binding and loosing

00:34:33.820 is the power

00:34:34.400 to forgive sins,

00:34:35.960 which Protestants

00:34:36.800 don't have at all.

00:34:37.880 Orthodox have it,

00:34:39.000 but except this is

00:34:39.900 an Orthodox document.

00:34:41.240 This is an Orthodox council.

00:34:42.440 We hold this council,

00:34:44.020 Tim.

00:34:44.360 He, Peter,

00:34:44.860 that's my whole point.

00:34:45.980 We have this council.

00:34:47.600 We don't disagree with you on that.

00:34:49.140 You don't have bishops.

00:34:50.160 Yes, we do.

00:34:50.920 I'm talking to the guy

00:34:51.320 in the room.

00:34:51.520 We do have bishops,

00:34:52.660 and they go all the way

00:34:53.460 back to Aristobulus

00:34:54.400 of Britain.

00:34:55.120 What does this mean to you?

00:34:56.160 He, Peter,

00:34:56.940 and the Pope

00:34:57.700 as the authority

00:34:59.360 of universal binding

00:35:00.600 and loosing.

00:35:01.480 They say this is just

00:35:02.360 a symbolic power.

00:35:03.780 No, we don't say that.

00:35:04.700 It's really an honorific.

00:35:06.540 No, we don't.

00:35:07.060 It's merely first among equals.

00:35:08.300 Now, hold on.

00:35:09.360 If you're appealed to.

00:35:10.520 I think there's an interesting thing.

00:35:11.140 Did all 12 apostles

00:35:11.960 have the power

00:35:12.500 to forgive sin?

00:35:13.540 Of course.

00:35:14.000 Of course.

00:35:15.140 But only one

00:35:16.120 has what's called

00:35:17.340 here in this particular council

00:35:19.880 the power of universal

00:35:21.600 binding and loosing,

00:35:22.640 which is why you would

00:35:23.660 appeal to a Pope

00:35:24.480 to excommunicate

00:35:25.520 the second in charge

00:35:26.420 of the church.

00:35:27.320 You have to tell me

00:35:28.960 how that can happen.

00:35:29.380 And that's why a council

00:35:30.140 can excommunicate the Pope

00:35:31.400 because the council

00:35:32.360 is above the Pope.

00:35:32.960 Excommunicate the Pope.

00:35:33.760 I just read you the Acts.

00:35:34.540 The Pope is above

00:35:35.100 any individual bishop.

00:35:36.980 The bishops are above the Pope.

00:35:38.720 The Acts of the Council

00:35:40.040 say that Jilius

00:35:41.540 was excommunicated.

00:35:42.340 Your translation

00:35:43.660 of your people

00:35:44.420 say he was.

00:35:45.100 I would like to hear

00:35:45.920 from you guys

00:35:46.580 what about the arguments

00:35:48.180 you've made

00:35:48.760 or believe

00:35:49.400 makes your denomination

00:35:51.260 superior

00:35:52.000 in the true sense

00:35:53.480 of the word superior.

00:35:54.740 Are you saying

00:35:55.400 that it's because

00:35:56.100 you're right?

00:35:57.260 You're correct?

00:35:58.240 Or is there something

00:35:59.300 about your belief

00:35:59.940 that inherently

00:36:00.620 better serves

00:36:01.920 the people and God?

00:36:03.480 I mean,

00:36:03.940 just to be very clear,

00:36:04.620 the Anglican Catholic position

00:36:05.800 and by extension

00:36:07.360 the Methodist position

00:36:08.160 because Methodists

00:36:08.780 are Anglicans

00:36:09.340 is that the Methodist church,

00:36:11.700 the Anglican church,

00:36:12.400 all of them,

00:36:12.920 they're not the superior

00:36:14.220 or one true church.

00:36:15.420 They are a group

00:36:16.660 of Christians

00:36:17.300 in their genuine

00:36:18.980 best effort

00:36:19.620 attempting to follow Christ

00:36:22.120 in the most proper way possible

00:36:23.900 using the seven ecumenical councils,

00:36:25.740 using the seven sacraments.

00:36:27.220 We are Catholic

00:36:28.300 up until

00:36:29.400 the end of the 11th century.

00:36:31.160 Why?

00:36:31.740 What happened then?

00:36:33.260 We began to disagree

00:36:34.180 with the Pope.

00:36:35.160 I mean,

00:36:35.580 it's a long process.

00:36:37.000 The Reformation

00:36:37.360 did not happen

00:36:38.040 in 1517.

00:36:38.660 In the 11th century

00:36:39.260 a Pope came in

00:36:39.940 who was saying stuff

00:36:40.600 that was like way wrong.

00:36:41.960 I would argue

00:36:42.660 it started with

00:36:43.080 Gregory VII probably

00:36:44.120 with the Dictatus Pape

00:36:45.120 and him coming out

00:36:45.940 and because of

00:36:47.200 a literal political situation,

00:36:48.980 this was not

00:36:49.620 a theological issue.

00:36:50.960 This was a political issue.

00:36:51.980 I have a question for you.

00:36:52.600 You're an Anglican,

00:36:53.680 then do you agree

00:36:54.160 with the branch theory?

00:36:55.220 Anglican Catholic.

00:36:57.080 I don't agree

00:36:57.540 with the branch theory.

00:36:58.000 Can you elaborate

00:36:58.640 on the branch theory?

00:36:59.600 It's the typical Anglican idea

00:37:00.940 that the church

00:37:01.760 is split amongst

00:37:02.760 a bunch of different branches.

00:37:04.540 I think

00:37:05.160 that would probably line up.

00:37:07.380 Do you think

00:37:07.720 that any of the people

00:37:08.540 who composed the documents

00:37:10.080 and the canons

00:37:11.000 at the seven ecumenical councils

00:37:12.520 believe that the church

00:37:13.740 was divided

00:37:14.380 amongst a bunch

00:37:15.120 of different sects?

00:37:16.500 I don't...

00:37:17.340 Well, I...

00:37:18.840 I mean, the answer...

00:37:20.840 He's Orthodox now.

00:37:22.540 Could you name anybody

00:37:23.940 that believed that

00:37:24.580 about the nature

00:37:25.900 of the church?

00:37:27.440 I don't know

00:37:28.060 that I would agree

00:37:28.700 that it was necessarily

00:37:29.600 divided into several sects

00:37:31.160 and I don't know

00:37:31.520 that my church

00:37:32.100 would agree with that either.

00:37:33.100 I think...

00:37:33.440 Don't you agree

00:37:33.900 with the idea

00:37:34.800 that Protestants

00:37:35.580 are trying their best

00:37:36.460 and whether they're Methodists

00:37:37.500 or whether they're Anglican

00:37:38.320 doesn't really matter?

00:37:39.640 No.

00:37:40.120 I would say

00:37:40.520 that there are

00:37:41.040 Protestant sects

00:37:42.020 that are more properly

00:37:43.160 Christian than others.

00:37:43.400 Is the church

00:37:43.420 divided amongst

00:37:44.060 those branches?

00:37:47.580 Today, yes.

00:37:48.740 Okay.

00:37:49.100 Did anyone

00:37:49.660 in those seven councils

00:37:50.960 have that idea

00:37:52.160 about the nature

00:37:52.900 of the church?

00:37:53.640 No, but I also

00:37:54.520 don't think that...

00:37:55.300 So your church

00:37:56.300 is not in communion

00:37:57.380 with those ideas?

00:37:58.820 My church

00:37:59.420 is not in communion

00:38:00.020 with the Anglican communion.

00:38:00.980 We're not Anglicans.

00:38:03.340 We're Anglican Catholics.

00:38:04.400 We hold ourselves...

00:38:05.780 I'm asking you

00:38:06.040 about the first

00:38:06.860 thousand years

00:38:07.740 of Christianity.

00:38:09.000 Yes.

00:38:09.100 Yes, we...

00:38:09.600 But you have a...

00:38:10.320 We are in agreement

00:38:10.940 with all seven

00:38:11.560 ecumenical councils.

00:38:11.780 No, you're not

00:38:12.320 because you just...

00:38:13.160 You couldn't name

00:38:13.980 anybody that had

00:38:14.820 your ecclesiology

00:38:15.640 of those.

00:38:17.120 I don't think

00:38:18.140 we're having the same...

00:38:18.780 It's a big word.

00:38:19.040 I don't think

00:38:19.440 we're having the same conversation.

00:38:20.240 Maybe you should get

00:38:20.920 on this conversation

00:38:21.620 and answer the question

00:38:22.400 because that's

00:38:23.000 what we're doing here today.

00:38:24.760 The terminology

00:38:25.520 you're using

00:38:26.280 is confusing to me.

00:38:27.300 It's common.

00:38:28.220 It's natural.

00:38:28.820 The ecclesiology

00:38:31.260 that the people

00:38:32.140 the first thousand years had...

00:38:33.520 Yeah.

00:38:33.960 Did any one of them

00:38:34.860 have a branch theory

00:38:35.940 or that the church

00:38:36.820 is divided

00:38:37.200 amongst a bunch of groups?

00:38:40.040 Again, I don't think

00:38:41.040 we're having

00:38:41.300 the same conversation.

00:38:42.320 I think we got off base

00:38:43.460 at a certain point here.

00:38:44.400 Does your ecclesiology

00:38:45.400 have any basis

00:38:46.160 in the first thousand years?

00:38:47.180 Yes.

00:38:47.600 We trace all

00:38:48.720 of our ecclesiology

00:38:49.740 back to the first thousand years.

00:38:50.540 Name a church father

00:38:51.620 or a council

00:38:53.040 that has your

00:38:54.180 branch theory view

00:38:55.100 of the church.

00:38:56.080 I think branch theory

00:38:57.120 is where we're having

00:38:57.840 a disagreement here.

00:38:58.580 I've never heard

00:38:59.160 that term before.

00:39:00.120 It's a classic Anglican term

00:39:01.520 for the nature of the church.

00:39:03.060 That's how they justified

00:39:03.980 their Reformation position.

00:39:05.440 So tell me one church father

00:39:07.060 or council

00:39:07.660 that has that position

00:39:08.440 about the church.

00:39:09.020 It's a very simple question.

00:39:11.020 Off the top of my head...

00:39:12.260 So it's ahistorical.

00:39:13.360 Off the top of my head,

00:39:14.340 I can't give you

00:39:14.760 an answer to the question.

00:39:15.580 What Jay's asking him

00:39:17.160 for people out there

00:39:19.080 listening about ahistorical,

00:39:20.540 when a Protestant claims

00:39:22.780 that I'm with the church,

00:39:24.440 I was with the church

00:39:25.260 the same way

00:39:26.060 that the Orthodox were

00:39:27.120 until 1054,

00:39:29.380 set aside who excommunicated

00:39:31.780 whom for a second,

00:39:33.280 they might agree in abstracto,

00:39:35.580 which is why I called it

00:39:36.420 abstract enlightenment rationalism.

00:39:38.580 They might agree in abstracto

00:39:40.280 with what was going on,

00:39:41.860 you know,

00:39:42.280 with the Orthodox

00:39:42.920 or with the Catholics.

00:39:44.000 They might favor...

00:39:44.580 They're always going to favor

00:39:45.360 the Orthodox

00:39:45.880 because none of these groups

00:39:47.300 like the Pope

00:39:48.320 or the unity required

00:39:49.280 by a papacy.

00:39:50.220 But what Jay was asking here

00:39:52.740 is for it to be

00:39:54.920 true Christianity,

00:39:56.340 true, true Christianity

00:39:57.400 in its truest sense,

00:39:58.360 it's got to be

00:39:58.780 one holy Catholic

00:39:59.500 and apostolic.

00:40:00.840 There's a problem

00:40:01.660 for the one mark

00:40:03.140 and the Catholic mark

00:40:04.080 for Orthodox,

00:40:04.920 but Orthodox

00:40:05.420 are actually Christian

00:40:08.060 insofar as they have

00:40:09.640 the seven sacraments

00:40:11.140 and all of their bishops

00:40:12.840 can be traced back

00:40:14.020 to one of the apostles.

00:40:16.040 That's what he was asking

00:40:17.000 about ecclesiology.

00:40:18.740 So when they say,

00:40:19.720 well, I agree with this,

00:40:20.580 but no Protestant

00:40:21.840 has the seven sacraments

00:40:24.400 or a bishop.

00:40:25.140 We have the seven sacraments

00:40:26.540 and we have bishops.

00:40:27.800 I'm going to get

00:40:28.880 very reductive

00:40:29.720 and simplify everything

00:40:31.000 to a ridiculous degree

00:40:32.580 and ask questions

00:40:33.560 that maybe are

00:40:34.120 ridiculously rudimentary

00:40:35.160 for the average Christian.

00:40:37.260 Do you guys all...

00:40:39.000 When it comes to

00:40:40.380 Mosaic Law,

00:40:41.920 Laws of Leviticus,

00:40:43.300 do you all follow those

00:40:45.300 or are they considered archaic?

00:40:47.080 How does the Old Testament

00:40:48.200 play a role

00:40:48.800 in how you live your lives

00:40:50.360 and what rules you follow?

00:40:51.600 We're under the New Covenant.

00:40:53.120 We...

00:40:53.520 Yeah.

00:40:54.440 So what does that mean?

00:40:55.260 I just don't know.

00:40:56.840 Like the New Testament?

00:40:58.200 So the Laws of Leviticus

00:40:59.840 don't apply or...

00:41:00.600 Yeah.

00:41:00.840 The Laws of Leviticus

00:41:01.820 are specifically made

00:41:03.020 for a very specific period

00:41:04.140 in Jewish history.

00:41:05.260 And there are...

00:41:06.520 Jesus does not come

00:41:07.440 to erase the law.

00:41:08.980 He comes to fulfill the law.

00:41:10.760 So his position

00:41:11.760 in the hierarchy

00:41:13.460 is not as somebody

00:41:14.560 who washes things away.

00:41:15.620 It's somebody who fulfills it.

00:41:17.580 The law was basically

00:41:18.580 a series of things

00:41:19.380 that Jews had to do

00:41:20.320 to stay in communion with God.

00:41:22.520 Christ gives us

00:41:23.600 a different set of rules.

00:41:24.740 That doesn't mean

00:41:25.120 we ignore everything,

00:41:26.380 but it means

00:41:27.060 we take his authority

00:41:28.000 over the old law.

00:41:29.660 So does that mean

00:41:30.600 that when it comes

00:41:31.900 to all of

00:41:33.500 the Old Testament's rules,

00:41:35.020 are there some

00:41:36.240 that remain

00:41:36.860 based on

00:41:37.720 Jesus said outright

00:41:39.180 these are still to remain

00:41:40.540 and these are not to remain?

00:41:42.100 How do you...

00:41:42.900 And this is not a question.

00:41:43.680 How do you know which...

00:41:44.820 I don't imagine

00:41:45.940 that Jesus addressed

00:41:46.800 literally every single

00:41:48.100 rule or law.

00:41:48.960 How do you know

00:41:49.340 which ones to follow?

00:41:50.820 Probably one way

00:41:51.760 we disagree with him

00:41:52.900 is to a degree,

00:41:53.980 not totally,

00:41:54.620 but I mean,

00:41:55.160 Orthodox and Catholics

00:41:55.940 agree that there is

00:41:57.020 an oral tradition

00:41:57.860 that's passed down

00:41:58.520 from the apostles.

00:41:59.240 So you have

00:41:59.700 with the written text

00:42:00.720 of the New Testament,

00:42:01.600 which the early church

00:42:02.420 didn't have a Bible.

00:42:03.620 They had some documents,

00:42:05.520 they had some letters,

00:42:06.360 and they had tradition,

00:42:07.520 and they had the church service.

00:42:08.680 So everything was kind of

00:42:09.880 done in a liturgical service way.

00:42:11.660 You would be getting

00:42:12.920 catechized orally,

00:42:14.080 and then eventually

00:42:15.420 the Bible gets collected

00:42:16.660 in later centuries

00:42:17.820 to be the canon.

00:42:19.560 So basically tradition

00:42:20.960 and the Bible

00:42:21.660 lets you know

00:42:22.820 what things carry over

00:42:24.320 and what don't,

00:42:24.900 and that's one of the reasons

00:42:25.520 why the councils have

00:42:26.760 church law.

00:42:27.860 So church law

00:42:28.420 kind of helps interpret that.

00:42:30.000 So I have a question.

00:42:30.680 I'm probably pronouncing

00:42:31.220 this wrong,

00:42:31.620 but how do you all

00:42:32.600 view Huderites?

00:42:34.420 Is that the word?

00:42:35.560 Oh, you mean Anabaptists?

00:42:36.800 Like, yeah.

00:42:37.160 Yeah.

00:42:37.540 How do you all view them?

00:42:38.800 Are they wrong?

00:42:39.480 We would say

00:42:40.040 they're heterodox, yeah.

00:42:41.640 They're outside of the...

00:42:43.820 And I think you guys

00:42:45.080 would all agree.

00:42:45.880 It's like an Amish.

00:42:48.080 So this is going to be

00:42:50.160 a kindergartner-level,

00:42:51.700 you know,

00:42:53.200 urban liberals' argument

00:42:54.340 for the Christians

00:42:55.180 right now when I say this,

00:42:56.280 but is it not

00:42:57.840 one of the instructions

00:42:58.780 of God to be fruitful

00:42:59.620 and multiply?

00:43:00.960 Yes.

00:43:01.400 Sure.

00:43:01.600 So we're having

00:43:02.120 a conversation over

00:43:02.960 what is the superior

00:43:04.680 denomination.

00:43:06.020 Well, I just looked it up.

00:43:08.200 I don't think Mormons count.

00:43:09.800 No offense to Mormons.

00:43:10.660 I think for the purpose

00:43:11.520 of this debate,

00:43:13.120 Mormons are a different

00:43:14.040 area, right?

00:43:15.660 Mormons are non-Trinitarian.

00:43:16.960 They don't believe

00:43:17.440 in the same God

00:43:18.120 that we do.

00:43:19.200 Pentecostals have

00:43:19.940 a 2.1 fertility rate

00:43:21.420 and Huderites

00:43:23.560 have 6.27 fertility rate.

00:43:26.700 Jeez.

00:43:27.200 After that,

00:43:28.480 conservative Protestants,

00:43:29.500 1.8,

00:43:30.160 Catholics,

00:43:30.560 1.9,

00:43:31.380 Orthodox,

00:43:31.900 1.9,

00:43:33.020 Jehovah's Witness,

00:43:34.000 slightly less than 2,

00:43:35.320 Protestants,

00:43:36.020 1.5 to 1.6,

00:43:38.260 liberal Protestants,

00:43:39.700 1.5,

00:43:40.600 and unaffiliated

00:43:41.860 Christians,

00:43:43.100 1.3 to 1.8.

00:43:45.180 So the Pentecostals

00:43:47.380 and Huderites,

00:43:48.260 according to

00:43:48.940 just a cursory search,

00:43:50.260 are the only actual groups

00:43:51.980 that are being fruitful

00:43:53.500 and multiplying.

00:43:54.340 And that's,

00:43:55.080 to be honest,

00:43:56.120 only the Huderites

00:43:57.020 the Amish,

00:43:59.120 Anabaptists,

00:44:00.320 everybody else

00:44:00.880 ain't having kids.

00:44:02.260 I think traditional Catholics

00:44:03.420 are having kids.

00:44:05.340 Just a cursory search,

00:44:06.600 it is around 1.92.

00:44:08.320 I thought it was

00:44:08.660 a little higher than that.

00:44:09.220 There's not much

00:44:09.860 of a difference

00:44:10.280 between our three sects.

00:44:12.060 Y'all ain't having kids.

00:44:13.320 Y'all are supposed

00:44:13.880 to be fruitful and multiplying.

00:44:14.880 What are you doing?

00:44:15.340 If you go to the

00:44:15.360 Tridentine Latin Mass,

00:44:16.540 it's a very different group.

00:44:17.900 I'm going to ask

00:44:18.340 Chechi P this.

00:44:19.440 It's going to be

00:44:20.080 above replacement.

00:44:21.260 I do really quickly

00:44:22.800 while he's doing that,

00:44:23.480 I want to come back

00:44:23.980 because I had an opportunity

00:44:25.060 to sit down and think

00:44:25.820 about the branch theory thing.

00:44:27.020 Do you not have

00:44:27.780 a Russian Orthodox,

00:44:28.720 a Greek Orthodox,

00:44:29.580 an Orthodox church

00:44:30.180 in America?

00:44:31.440 Those are not branches.

00:44:32.880 It's not at all

00:44:33.640 the same ecclesiology

00:44:34.800 of Anglican branch theory.

00:44:36.580 First of all,

00:44:37.080 I would point out

00:44:37.540 that branch theory

00:44:38.080 is not dogmatic.

00:44:39.900 I was just looking

00:44:41.160 for whatever was.

00:44:42.040 I know,

00:44:42.620 but the Anglican position

00:44:43.880 is that we were part

00:44:45.420 of the one true

00:44:46.200 holy apostolic

00:44:46.980 Catholic church

00:44:47.680 and then that church.

00:44:50.740 What's dogma

00:44:51.260 in your church?

00:44:51.700 How do you determine it?

00:44:52.700 The same way

00:44:53.380 that Catholics

00:44:53.840 and Orthodox do.

00:44:54.640 No,

00:44:54.900 it's very different.

00:44:55.540 We no longer have a pope,

00:44:57.560 but we have councils

00:44:58.700 of bishops.

00:44:59.400 So how do you determine

00:45:00.240 the dogma?

00:45:00.400 We have councils

00:45:01.020 of bishops.

00:45:02.580 Okay,

00:45:02.880 but what's a dogma?

00:45:04.120 Do you accept icons?

00:45:05.720 No.

00:45:06.240 Well,

00:45:06.460 yes,

00:45:06.780 we're not iconoclasts.

00:45:08.440 Well,

00:45:08.780 but is it a dogma

00:45:09.780 or is it an opinion?

00:45:10.760 We hold the same position

00:45:11.820 as the Roman Catholic church.

00:45:13.120 No,

00:45:13.300 you don't

00:45:13.660 because Orthodox

00:45:14.440 and Roman Catholics

00:45:15.200 excommunicate people

00:45:16.380 that don't believe

00:45:17.180 in imagery

00:45:17.920 and most Protestants

00:45:19.160 historically

00:45:19.640 have allowed it

00:45:20.300 to be something

00:45:20.920 that's an opinion.

00:45:22.360 Adiaphora.

00:45:22.800 There is a lot

00:45:23.420 of pious opinion.

00:45:24.640 So is it a dogma

00:45:25.700 or not?

00:45:25.980 That's the question.

00:45:26.880 I'm not sure exactly

00:45:28.200 with icons.

00:45:28.940 I don't believe

00:45:29.500 that we excommunicate people

00:45:31.740 for thinking that icons

00:45:32.640 are bad.

00:45:32.660 So it's not a dogma

00:45:33.580 and thus many of the basics

00:45:34.860 are not actually settled

00:45:35.920 in your position.

00:45:36.660 It depends on the,

00:45:38.300 if we're in,

00:45:39.300 again,

00:45:39.740 I'm not as well versed

00:45:41.040 on the specifics

00:45:41.720 of the councils,

00:45:42.960 but if it's in

00:45:43.580 the first seven councils,

00:45:44.560 we're of the same opinion.

00:45:46.380 But the problem

00:45:46.860 with your ecclesiology

00:45:47.840 is that there are

00:45:49.340 no leaders, right?

00:45:50.300 We have bishops.

00:45:51.480 We have archbishops.

00:45:52.460 I don't know why

00:45:52.900 we keep coming back.

00:45:53.700 No, bishops that can

00:45:54.700 trace their lineage

00:45:55.560 all the way back

00:45:56.340 to one of the Romans.

00:45:56.640 We can trace back

00:45:57.340 to Augustine of Britain

00:45:58.480 and we can trace back

00:45:59.340 to Aristobalis.

00:46:00.220 Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

00:46:02.740 Our bishops trace back

00:46:03.780 to the first century AD

00:46:04.700 in Britain.

00:46:05.540 Okay.

00:46:06.040 That's a broken lineage.

00:46:07.340 According to your...

00:46:08.560 If you have a totally different...

00:46:09.340 No, it's not a broken lineage.

00:46:10.740 The church remained in Britain

00:46:11.820 even after the Saxons got there.

00:46:13.480 You're identifying

00:46:13.980 as an Anglican Catholic today?

00:46:15.380 Yes.

00:46:15.680 Or you're identifying

00:46:16.340 as a Methodist?

00:46:17.020 I'm identifying as a Methodist

00:46:18.420 who is inquiring

00:46:19.200 into the Anglican Catholic Church

00:46:20.360 and is getting confirmed

00:46:21.040 later this year.

00:46:21.840 I mean, this is part of the problem.

00:46:22.920 No, that's good.

00:46:23.380 No, right now we're having

00:46:24.220 a historical discussion.

00:46:25.540 I am a historian,

00:46:26.760 but we're having a conversation

00:46:27.760 about history right now.

00:46:28.920 So, your church recognizes

00:46:30.320 the Aristobalis of Britain.

00:46:31.520 Your church recognizes

00:46:32.480 the Aristobalis of Britain.

00:46:32.940 You're a historian,

00:46:33.560 but you didn't know

00:46:33.940 about the branch theory,

00:46:34.620 which is like the number one...

00:46:35.780 I'm not a religious historian.

00:46:37.260 I'm a historian.

00:46:38.800 I'm a medieval historian,

00:46:39.880 specifically.

00:46:40.640 So, when we're looking at this,

00:46:42.520 Aristobalis is the earliest

00:46:44.200 we can go back

00:46:44.940 with the Anglican Catholic Church

00:46:46.400 because of the union

00:46:48.300 between the churches in Kent

00:46:50.040 and the churches in Scotia.

00:46:50.940 You're assuming your ecclesiology.

00:46:52.720 No, I'm not.

00:46:53.520 You are.

00:46:53.920 No, that's fair.

00:46:55.080 It's just you're not...

00:46:55.740 You both acknowledge this.

00:46:56.540 You're not a faithful representative.

00:46:58.240 Both of your churches

00:46:59.260 acknowledge Aristobalis.

00:46:59.980 No, we don't.

00:47:00.640 We don't acknowledge

00:47:01.440 your ecclesiology.

00:47:02.700 You understand that

00:47:03.200 from the Orthodox perspective,

00:47:04.360 it doesn't matter

00:47:05.040 if you have a laying on of hands

00:47:06.660 or like that.

00:47:07.100 Is Augustine legitimate?

00:47:08.340 If you leave the faith

00:47:09.720 of the church,

00:47:10.460 none of that

00:47:10.980 from the Orthodox perspective

00:47:11.900 even matters.

00:47:12.260 We didn't leave

00:47:12.680 the faith of the church.

00:47:13.520 The Roman Catholic Church

00:47:14.480 left us.

00:47:15.100 That's our position.

00:47:16.200 I know your position.

00:47:17.100 I'm saying from our position,

00:47:18.520 our ecclesiology

00:47:19.540 doesn't recognize

00:47:20.800 your ecclesiology,

00:47:21.580 nor does his.

00:47:22.720 They think that

00:47:23.360 Anglican orders are invalid

00:47:24.440 via Leo XIII.

00:47:25.620 That's because that's

00:47:26.920 what's convenient

00:47:27.420 to their theology.

00:47:28.380 It doesn't actually have

00:47:29.320 any sort of basis

00:47:30.340 in reality.

00:47:30.540 I'm saying that neither of us

00:47:31.320 recognizes your lineage

00:47:32.660 and I understand

00:47:33.360 that you think

00:47:33.880 that it's there,

00:47:34.620 but that's why it is there.

00:47:35.800 We can trace it

00:47:36.540 all the way back to us.

00:47:37.200 Only on the basis

00:47:38.200 of your ecclesiology

00:47:39.380 and presupposing

00:47:40.500 the Protestant lineage.

00:47:42.100 No, we have an ordination

00:47:43.500 that goes back to Augustine.

00:47:44.580 On the basis

00:47:44.900 of your ecclesiology.

00:47:46.460 You understand,

00:47:47.000 people out there

00:47:47.460 need to understand

00:47:48.160 that there is such a thing

00:47:49.960 as apostolic

00:47:50.920 sacramental Christianity.

00:47:52.620 The Roman Catholic Church

00:47:53.720 has, Ratzinger

00:47:54.640 wrote on this in 2004

00:47:55.940 and in the 90s as well.

00:47:57.940 We acknowledge

00:47:58.580 that you can call

00:47:59.740 the Orthodox Churches

00:48:01.020 churches with a capital C.

00:48:02.460 They have bishops,

00:48:03.740 they go back to apostles,

00:48:04.940 they have seven sacraments

00:48:06.460 represented,

00:48:07.580 acknowledged by the church.

00:48:08.940 They're valid sacraments.

00:48:10.600 You wouldn't be licit

00:48:11.740 for a Catholic

00:48:12.220 to receive there

00:48:12.980 or vice versa,

00:48:14.180 but there is a shared

00:48:15.920 ecclesiology.

00:48:17.220 What people don't understand

00:48:18.260 and need to

00:48:19.020 about Protestantism,

00:48:20.760 Anglican Catholics

00:48:21.520 are slightly different.

00:48:23.100 They're an exception

00:48:23.620 to the rule,

00:48:24.200 but of all the sects

00:48:26.380 of Protestantism,

00:48:27.480 they don't share

00:48:28.580 any ecclesiology with us.

00:48:30.100 So they'll say,

00:48:30.640 oh, this is a dogma.

00:48:31.580 What's a dogma?

00:48:32.300 This isn't something

00:48:32.960 that traces back

00:48:33.680 to the Acta Apostolic Assetis.

00:48:35.680 It's not something

00:48:36.400 that the bishops

00:48:37.220 always and everywhere

00:48:38.180 taught together as a church.

00:48:40.080 So we have to just say this.

00:48:41.980 It's not to be exclusive,

00:48:43.360 but Protestantism

00:48:44.360 is a lay

00:48:45.420 bastardization

00:48:47.360 of the religion.

00:48:48.480 You guys believe

00:48:49.180 in a Trinitarian,

00:48:50.580 you have a Trinitarian baptism,

00:48:52.920 baptism in the name

00:48:53.720 of the Father, Son,

00:48:54.340 and the Holy Spirit.

00:48:55.140 So it is technically Christian,

00:48:57.380 but except beyond that,

00:48:59.160 and baptism even

00:49:00.340 in Roman Catholicism

00:49:01.300 can be done by a layman,

00:49:02.700 which is what makes it valid.

00:49:03.920 But other than that,

00:49:05.480 Protestantism is

00:49:06.720 an abstract idea.

00:49:08.780 I like the idea of Jesus.

00:49:10.440 I like this book

00:49:11.260 that the Roman Catholic Church

00:49:12.640 canadized.

00:49:12.840 So it's not the same

00:49:13.600 ecclesiology, thank you.

00:49:14.400 No, you're talking

00:49:15.360 about Protestantism.

00:49:16.940 That is a big tent.

00:49:18.320 You're part of that domain.

00:49:20.340 Yes, but the Anglican Protestantism

00:49:22.120 is very different

00:49:22.620 from the Lutheran Protestantism,

00:49:23.700 which is very different

00:49:24.220 from the Reformed Protestantism.

00:49:25.060 Which was my original point, right?

00:49:26.360 There's not actually

00:49:27.200 any clear unity there.

00:49:28.680 It's all over the place.

00:49:29.800 No Protestant is going to tell you

00:49:31.300 that there is Protestant unity.

00:49:33.620 Thank you.

00:49:34.100 They're going to tell you

00:49:34.800 that it disproves Protestantism.

00:49:36.460 No, it doesn't.

00:49:37.860 Council on Nicaea.

00:49:38.740 You guys don't have unity.

00:49:39.500 The church must be

00:49:39.640 one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

00:49:41.800 Each of those four marks

00:49:43.080 has a very specific quiddity.

00:49:43.960 That doesn't mean

00:49:44.640 that we have to be

00:49:45.220 in communion with one another,

00:49:46.400 obviously.

00:49:47.300 It means you have to have

00:49:47.980 those marks.

00:49:48.520 One, holy, catholic, apostolic.

00:49:49.640 We do.

00:49:50.200 We have bishops.

00:49:51.520 We have the sacraments.

00:49:52.760 We have the history.

00:49:53.820 Is Bishop T.D. Jakes a bishop?

00:49:54.960 He claims to be one.

00:49:55.960 I don't know who T.D. Jakes is.

00:49:57.520 Oh, come on.

00:49:59.120 Woman, thou art loose.

00:50:00.000 He's the black modalist preacher

00:50:02.420 who says he's Bishop T.D. Jakes.

00:50:04.860 Is he a bishop?

00:50:05.820 Then it doesn't sound like he is.

00:50:07.420 Oh, okay.

00:50:07.960 But you're a bishop.

00:50:09.100 Your church has bishops.

00:50:09.900 My church has bishops.

00:50:10.900 And why is that?

00:50:11.800 Because they can trace

00:50:12.780 their ordination back to Augustine.

00:50:14.420 It's like the 87th time

00:50:16.020 the question's been asked

00:50:16.840 and he's answered

00:50:17.360 the exact same thing.

00:50:18.300 But he's not understanding

00:50:20.840 the question.

00:50:21.020 You guys aren't asking

00:50:22.340 a question that makes sense.

00:50:23.460 Why do you have ordination?

00:50:24.820 Because we do.

00:50:25.760 Okay, okay.

00:50:26.160 So I think there's

00:50:28.720 an interesting view

00:50:29.380 between the three of you

00:50:30.540 and what a superior

00:50:31.720 denomination would be.

00:50:33.400 And it's largely about

00:50:34.580 what you think to be

00:50:35.780 true to the religion

00:50:37.420 as opposed to

00:50:38.260 what the religion does

00:50:39.940 and what its adherents do.

00:50:42.480 And that's fine.

00:50:45.000 I don't want to diminish that

00:50:46.380 because obviously

00:50:46.940 that's extremely important

00:50:47.780 to know the truth

00:50:48.860 and the history of things.

00:50:50.920 But from my perspective,

00:50:52.720 I take a look at the adherence

00:50:54.040 to the religion

00:50:54.500 and what they're doing

00:50:55.280 and whether they can

00:50:56.140 actually follow

00:50:56.900 what they're being told to do.

00:50:58.080 And it largely feels like

00:50:59.780 they mostly don't.

00:51:02.020 I mean, again,

00:51:02.700 if I was going to go off

00:51:04.120 the sheer numbers,

00:51:05.300 I'm more convinced

00:51:06.700 to be Amish

00:51:07.320 than anything else right now.

00:51:09.520 The problem is Gandhi.

00:51:10.640 Gandhi said the same thing.

00:51:11.760 He said if I ever met

00:51:12.560 a perfect Christian,

00:51:13.520 I would go be one.

00:51:14.640 There's some validity

00:51:15.880 to the proposition

00:51:16.840 by our Lord himself

00:51:17.840 that you judge a tree

00:51:18.940 by its roots.

00:51:19.480 My point is this.

00:51:21.080 So I looked up

00:51:21.680 the fastest growing denominations.

00:51:23.920 The independent network

00:51:25.240 of charismatic Christianity

00:51:26.380 is the largest growth,

00:51:27.980 apparently,

00:51:29.100 followed by Pentecostal churches.

00:51:31.360 Good God.

00:51:32.600 Pentecostals have like

00:51:34.820 between three to five percent growth.

00:51:37.820 You understand the inverse

00:51:38.700 proportionalism at work there,

00:51:40.360 though.

00:51:40.480 So it's that they're small

00:51:42.260 so they can grow

00:51:42.980 really, really fast.

00:51:43.980 If a town's got 100 people

00:51:45.320 and it gets two new people,

00:51:46.360 it just increased its population

00:51:48.700 by two percent.

00:51:49.560 There are like

00:51:50.420 600 Pentecostals.

00:51:52.400 It's terrifying.

00:51:53.380 Also, the way the debate

00:51:55.100 is framed,

00:51:56.040 which is not bad,

00:51:57.180 but superior

00:51:58.260 begs the question

00:51:59.380 of like what standard?

00:52:00.680 Like what do you,

00:52:01.320 what's the metric

00:52:01.940 for judging

00:52:02.620 what makes it superior?

00:52:03.500 I would argue

00:52:03.960 the superior,

00:52:04.780 the superior religion

00:52:06.240 is the one that brings

00:52:07.300 the most people

00:52:08.160 to salvation.

00:52:09.200 Yeah.

00:52:09.580 Well, but maybe what's,

00:52:11.680 maybe truth is first and foremost,

00:52:13.100 I think for most of us

00:52:14.180 or all of us here.

00:52:15.020 Yeah.

00:52:15.420 Because we assume

00:52:16.480 that the true religion

00:52:17.640 will bear the fruits

00:52:19.000 that go along

00:52:20.600 with what's true

00:52:21.320 first and foremost.

00:52:22.020 So just having numbers

00:52:24.040 isn't necessarily

00:52:25.480 an indicator

00:52:26.160 of the true religion

00:52:27.380 because you can have

00:52:28.060 a lot of people

00:52:28.560 who convert

00:52:29.100 to a false religion

00:52:30.420 or who think

00:52:31.460 that they're converting

00:52:32.660 and it's really just like

00:52:33.760 Santeria or something

00:52:34.860 like that

00:52:35.280 in Latin South America.

00:52:36.600 That's not authentic, right?

00:52:37.920 So to be fair,

00:52:38.720 I want to make sure

00:52:39.080 I get the numbers right.

00:52:40.080 I just looked up Catholic

00:52:41.740 to make the point

00:52:42.700 about inverse.

00:52:43.900 3.9 million people

00:52:45.280 in 2023

00:52:45.860 became Catholic

00:52:46.940 whereas Pentecostal

00:52:47.760 was 56,000.

00:52:49.540 So it's correct.

00:52:50.980 And I'll look up

00:52:51.780 the other sects as well

00:52:52.760 because likely the same thing

00:52:54.200 for Orthodox.

00:52:55.420 They're much larger

00:52:56.440 so the percentage-wise

00:52:57.560 is going to be smaller.

00:52:59.160 But I guess my ultimate concern

00:53:01.840 is the initial point

00:53:05.000 of the question

00:53:05.540 of superior religion

00:53:06.440 is I think as you put

00:53:07.500 who brings people

00:53:08.000 to salvation.

00:53:08.860 Obviously the truth

00:53:10.100 of the religion

00:53:10.580 is going to matter

00:53:11.060 because like you said

00:53:11.640 if they're practicing Santeria

00:53:12.700 then they're not going anywhere.

00:53:14.420 But there's also the fact

00:53:15.900 that I mean largely

00:53:17.300 among all of your sects

00:53:18.380 people are not having kids at all.

00:53:19.880 I should say

00:53:20.940 they're having kids

00:53:21.360 but they're having not enough.

00:53:22.860 So you can keep converting

00:53:25.000 but eventually

00:53:26.300 there's no people.

00:53:28.580 I mean where does this

00:53:29.280 ultimately go?

00:53:30.000 It's a fair metric

00:53:30.600 in some political sense

00:53:32.660 but it's also

00:53:33.300 satireologically

00:53:34.740 who goes to heaven or not.

00:53:37.380 It's a bit of a crass metric.

00:53:39.360 We don't

00:53:39.680 we should be having

00:53:40.940 lots of kids

00:53:41.600 and obviously

00:53:42.840 Roman Catholicism

00:53:43.940 is marked

00:53:44.700 as the only

00:53:45.740 solidified version

00:53:48.200 of Christianity

00:53:48.700 on earth

00:53:49.260 that stayed

00:53:50.480 against contraception

00:53:53.020 after the Anglican

00:53:54.360 Lambeth conferences

00:53:55.340 of 1910, 1920, 1930

00:53:57.520 where all the other sects

00:53:59.380 of Christianity

00:53:59.860 capitulated.

00:54:01.260 But it's true

00:54:02.100 and it's fair enough

00:54:03.080 for people to say

00:54:04.460 particularly after

00:54:05.540 Vatican II

00:54:06.320 and the liberalizing trend

00:54:07.620 popular trends

00:54:08.640 among Catholics

00:54:09.880 almost as many

00:54:11.380 Catholics contracept

00:54:12.500 as Protestants

00:54:13.900 or Orthodox.

00:54:15.000 This isn't quite true

00:54:15.820 if you go to a

00:54:16.660 Tridentine Latin Mass

00:54:17.760 you're going to see

00:54:18.320 big, big, big families

00:54:19.540 which Jay pointed out

00:54:22.220 but I do think

00:54:22.920 that everyone should

00:54:23.700 each of the three of us

00:54:25.120 here should have

00:54:25.840 a segment

00:54:26.660 to state

00:54:28.880 some sort of

00:54:30.740 answer to the posit

00:54:31.860 if that's cool

00:54:33.680 like what's your case

00:54:35.320 for why

00:54:36.020 you are the best

00:54:37.260 version of Christianity

00:54:39.160 best major sect

00:54:40.240 I don't hold

00:54:41.000 the position

00:54:41.360 that we are

00:54:41.980 we just hold

00:54:42.460 the position

00:54:42.760 that you're not

00:54:43.440 what?

00:54:44.980 Okay

00:54:45.420 that's incredibly weak

00:54:47.620 and that's fine

00:54:49.120 we have a lot

00:54:49.560 of Mennonites

00:54:50.340 around here

00:54:51.060 and they rock

00:54:52.580 they're awesome

00:54:53.180 they have animals

00:54:54.300 they sell food

00:54:55.880 it's always like

00:54:56.800 real food

00:54:57.420 no chemicals

00:54:57.900 no garbage

00:54:58.600 they got big families

00:54:59.940 and I looked it up

00:55:02.420 the moderate Mennonites

00:55:03.820 there's a shop

00:55:05.040 not too far away

00:55:06.140 20 minutes

00:55:06.540 we used to go to

00:55:06.920 all the time

00:55:07.300 they got ice cream

00:55:08.120 and cheeses

00:55:08.680 and it's all

00:55:09.220 this really great stuff

00:55:10.560 I love it

00:55:11.020 that seems pretty cool

00:55:12.340 you know

00:55:13.580 if I was trying

00:55:14.640 to figure out

00:55:15.280 which one

00:55:15.880 yeah

00:55:16.160 well my point

00:55:16.920 is largely like

00:55:17.580 looking at the world

00:55:19.380 today

00:55:19.800 and the state

00:55:21.060 of things

00:55:21.580 they make a pretty

00:55:23.420 good argument

00:55:23.860 you know

00:55:25.020 don't eat garbage

00:55:25.980 be with your family

00:55:26.800 they tend to honor

00:55:28.480 their families

00:55:29.020 their communities

00:55:29.560 their parents

00:55:30.300 they go to church

00:55:30.880 they maintain this

00:55:31.620 they have lots of kids

00:55:32.720 I know they're small

00:55:33.880 it's only a few million

00:55:34.960 can I address that

00:55:36.920 because there's two points

00:55:38.040 it actually addressed

00:55:38.800 the point I was trying

00:55:39.580 to make to you earlier

00:55:40.280 so like

00:55:40.780 if you go back

00:55:41.500 to the early church

00:55:42.240 there was a group

00:55:42.720 called the Arians

00:55:43.460 and the Arians

00:55:44.080 believed that

00:55:45.060 Jesus was a creature

00:55:46.100 but the Arians

00:55:47.160 were also very into

00:55:48.480 morality and pushing morals

00:55:50.280 so they were

00:55:50.840 at least outwardly speaking

00:55:52.320 moral

00:55:52.840 kind of like

00:55:54.000 Joe's Witnesses

00:55:54.660 you could say

00:55:55.220 but Arians had

00:55:56.960 apostolic succession

00:55:58.080 but they lost

00:55:59.820 the church

00:56:00.660 and the faith

00:56:01.180 even though they had

00:56:02.020 the mechanical succession

00:56:03.300 likewise Christianity

00:56:04.700 can't be identified

00:56:05.900 as Hutterites

00:56:07.040 or Amish

00:56:07.760 because it's a historic religion

00:56:10.360 so it has to be tied

00:56:12.040 to the historic succession

00:56:14.100 not just of the bishops

00:56:15.660 but the apostles

00:56:17.500 that Jesus appointed

00:56:18.340 in the gospel

00:56:18.780 to hand down

00:56:19.780 that authority

00:56:20.700 and that rulership

00:56:22.200 of the church

00:56:22.800 so when you look at

00:56:24.120 the first, second, third,

00:56:25.220 fourth, fifth, sixth,

00:56:25.820 seventh centuries

00:56:26.620 you don't see anything

00:56:27.880 like Anglo-Catholicism

00:56:29.020 you don't see anything

00:56:29.680 like Hutterites

00:56:30.420 or Amish

00:56:31.340 you see people coming together

00:56:32.740 having councils

00:56:33.560 with bishops

00:56:34.220 with the Eucharist

00:56:35.140 with monastics

00:56:36.200 with the Episcopacy

00:56:38.620 with relics

00:56:40.380 with all the things

00:56:41.280 that characterize

00:56:42.260 Catholic Christianity

00:56:44.040 and Orthodox identify

00:56:45.180 as Orthodox

00:56:45.780 to be fair though

00:56:47.080 I would argue

00:56:48.120 that in those time periods

00:56:49.240 people were more likely

00:56:50.280 to live and practice

00:56:51.480 and worship

00:56:51.920 as the Hutterites do

00:56:52.840 no, no

00:56:53.900 the church's liturgical worship

00:56:55.780 that you see

00:56:57.140 with icons

00:56:58.060 and incense

00:56:58.720 is literally out

00:57:00.240 of the Old Testament worship

00:57:01.260 with, that you mentioned earlier

00:57:02.580 like the Levitical laws

00:57:03.680 the church adopted

00:57:04.960 all of those

00:57:06.240 many of those ceremonial things

00:57:08.680 like having the priest

00:57:10.660 decked out the way he is

00:57:11.820 with having an altar

00:57:12.880 no, like

00:57:14.860 typically speaking

00:57:15.920 Baptists don't believe

00:57:16.980 in an altar

00:57:17.700 for the purpose

00:57:18.460 of the Eucharistic offering

00:57:19.740 right

00:57:20.140 so Baptists believe

00:57:21.540 in it being a purely

00:57:22.360 symbolic remembrance

00:57:23.480 ceremony

00:57:24.440 but the early church

00:57:25.760 is doing

00:57:26.360 the liturgy

00:57:28.060 they're doing

00:57:28.880 the mass

00:57:30.220 or the

00:57:30.780 you know

00:57:31.220 the divine liturgy

00:57:32.060 from the earliest days

00:57:33.440 I want to be clear

00:57:34.200 everything he just described

00:57:35.740 as what early church

00:57:37.420 Catholics did

00:57:38.160 applies to Anglican

00:57:39.220 it doesn't

00:57:39.600 okay it doesn't

00:57:40.660 I don't think he knows

00:57:41.660 what Anglican Catholicism is

00:57:42.720 you didn't know

00:57:43.260 the basics of Anglican

00:57:44.380 ecclesiology

00:57:44.880 I was not aware

00:57:46.160 of a non-dogmatic

00:57:47.540 ecclesiastic position

00:57:47.880 a very well known thing

00:57:49.080 that is not dogmatic

00:57:50.580 it's your common doctrine

00:57:51.820 of ecclesiology

00:57:52.400 you didn't know it

00:57:52.980 you're not going to

00:57:53.340 lecture me on Anglican

00:57:54.140 we also don't

00:57:55.000 we also don't hold

00:57:56.000 to the 39 articles

00:57:56.960 as dogmatic

00:57:57.640 because there's not dogma

00:57:58.960 as we showed a minute ago

00:58:00.020 the marks of natural religion

00:58:03.100 qua religion

00:58:04.100 are really important here

00:58:05.620 and they do set off

00:58:07.060 a kind of rift

00:58:08.760 where the Protestants

00:58:10.080 are alone

00:58:11.360 they're a voice

00:58:12.100 crying in the wilderness

00:58:12.880 and we have to acknowledge

00:58:14.000 and that's what I tried

00:58:14.720 to acknowledge

00:58:15.120 at the very beginning

00:58:15.740 the basic marks of religion

00:58:17.020 even the pagan Greeks

00:58:19.160 had some of these

00:58:20.080 you would say

00:58:20.880 Buddhism doesn't

00:58:21.880 Protestantism doesn't

00:58:23.020 but even some of the

00:58:23.980 polytheist religions do

00:58:25.860 they have things like

00:58:26.620 smells and bells

00:58:27.400 having an altar

00:58:28.520 is something from

00:58:30.620 even pagan Greek religion

00:58:32.220 but for sacramental Christians

00:58:34.940 the Jews had them

00:58:36.240 right

00:58:36.660 sacramentals

00:58:37.700 sacrifice

00:58:38.740 blood sacrifice

00:58:40.580 which really

00:58:41.220 from Judaism

00:58:42.120 to Christianity

00:58:42.860 became sacrament

00:58:44.120 precepts

00:58:46.160 the daily things

00:58:47.240 you have to do

00:58:47.880 what are the five precepts

00:58:49.220 of Catholicism

00:58:49.980 a sacerdotal order

00:58:51.620 ritual

00:58:53.700 or what we call

00:58:54.760 liturgy

00:58:56.200 these are things

00:58:58.000 that are lacking

00:58:58.980 in Protestantism

00:59:00.120 I'm not saying this

00:59:00.920 to be rude or exclusive

00:59:02.320 but when you're dealing

00:59:03.840 with what I actually say

00:59:05.680 makes the Roman Catholic faith

00:59:07.020 the superior form

00:59:08.240 of Christianity

00:59:08.880 is at the first

00:59:10.980 ecumenical council ever

00:59:12.240 which was Nicaea

00:59:13.340 where we defined

00:59:14.180 the most important stuff

00:59:15.740 about the Trinity

00:59:16.580 there were four marks

00:59:18.960 of the church laid out

00:59:20.000 that Christ promised us

00:59:22.080 the church would never defect

00:59:23.180 it would be this way

00:59:24.060 until the end of time

00:59:24.980 it would be one

00:59:26.020 so there can't be

00:59:27.240 competing sects

00:59:28.300 there can be arguments

00:59:29.300 within one sect

00:59:30.600 but there can't be

00:59:31.320 actual different

00:59:32.400 competing sects

00:59:33.360 holy

00:59:33.900 this means sacraments

00:59:35.160 Catholic

00:59:37.820 this means worldwide

00:59:38.960 and of course

00:59:41.260 apostolic

00:59:41.960 this means that

00:59:42.640 there has to be

00:59:43.140 a direct line

00:59:43.900 of every bishop

00:59:44.880 in the world

00:59:45.420 back to one of the apostles

00:59:46.740 we would say

00:59:48.300 with all due respect

00:59:49.400 Protestantism

00:59:50.580 by and large

00:59:51.120 lacks all four

00:59:52.200 now we do not

00:59:53.660 make the same claim

00:59:54.620 the church doesn't

00:59:55.280 make the same claim

00:59:56.040 about orthodox Christianity

00:59:57.980 they have real bishops

00:59:59.320 that the church acknowledges

01:00:01.020 and that means

01:00:02.020 that they have

01:00:02.500 all seven sacraments

01:00:03.520 seven this means complete

01:00:04.680 so there's a different

01:00:06.160 conversation that

01:00:07.220 that needs to happen

01:00:08.200 between Catholics

01:00:09.000 you heard it

01:00:09.700 because we're arguing

01:00:10.300 about the first seven

01:00:11.000 councils

01:00:11.380 versus a kind of

01:00:13.020 quasi-religious

01:00:14.820 Protestantism

01:00:15.460 once again

01:00:15.840 we acknowledge

01:00:16.440 and hold the first

01:00:17.500 seven councils

01:00:18.120 but you don't

01:00:18.860 as I showed

01:00:19.520 from the seventh

01:00:20.120 ecumenical council

01:00:20.880 you fundamentally reject

01:00:22.300 the thing that

01:00:23.040 that council was about

01:00:24.020 you said it's

01:00:24.580 audiophora

01:00:25.180 they say you're

01:00:26.180 excommunicated

01:00:26.740 if you don't

01:00:27.120 accept images

01:00:27.680 so you don't

01:00:28.280 accept the seventh

01:00:28.840 council

01:00:29.040 let's do it in name

01:00:30.160 in theory

01:00:30.960 in a name

01:00:31.540 what are you

01:00:32.260 it is your

01:00:33.200 you just admitted

01:00:33.720 that was what

01:00:34.480 you said

01:00:34.860 a minute ago

01:00:35.320 if I said

01:00:36.380 that we

01:00:36.740 if I said

01:00:37.420 we have

01:00:38.220 dogma

01:00:39.580 you don't know

01:00:40.340 what these terms

01:00:40.880 even mean

01:00:41.240 if I said

01:00:41.840 no if I said

01:00:43.300 that we don't

01:00:44.260 agree with the

01:00:44.880 seventh council

01:00:45.460 then I misspoke

01:00:46.460 because of

01:00:46.920 no you said

01:00:47.760 that I asked

01:00:48.560 you if it was

01:00:48.960 dogma

01:00:49.480 meaning you're

01:00:50.000 excommunicated

01:00:50.860 if you don't

01:00:51.280 believe in images

01:00:51.800 and you said

01:00:52.320 no we don't

01:00:52.700 believe that

01:00:53.120 then you don't

01:00:53.940 believe the

01:00:54.300 seventh council

01:00:54.800 because it

01:00:55.180 does that

01:00:55.680 it's a simple

01:00:57.020 point

01:00:57.340 because we

01:00:57.900 don't

01:00:58.480 excommunicate

01:00:59.320 people for

01:01:00.120 not

01:01:00.600 because you

01:01:00.800 don't have

01:01:01.280 ecclesiology

01:01:02.360 but listen

01:01:04.420 I was gonna

01:01:04.840 bring I want

01:01:05.400 to bring in

01:01:05.700 another we got

01:01:06.480 another denomination

01:01:07.120 who's got some

01:01:07.620 words for you

01:01:08.280 war pig with

01:01:09.520 a super chat

01:01:09.860 saying baptists

01:01:11.140 don't pray to

01:01:11.920 middlemen and

01:01:12.540 call them saints

01:01:13.240 and we don't

01:01:13.940 pay for our

01:01:14.660 salvation by giving

01:01:15.520 Rome our coin

01:01:16.500 long live

01:01:17.500 American independent

01:01:18.400 baptists what

01:01:19.660 say y'all

01:01:20.260 that's gotta be

01:01:20.680 a joke

01:01:21.060 rock and roll

01:01:21.920 dude

01:01:22.240 yeah that's a

01:01:23.740 troll account

01:01:24.240 so in first

01:01:24.740 timothy 4

01:01:25.360 paul says to

01:01:26.580 timothy

01:01:27.020 be good timothy

01:01:28.560 because you will

01:01:29.280 save those around

01:01:30.520 you

01:01:30.840 okay does that

01:01:32.020 mean that paul

01:01:32.820 thinks timothy

01:01:33.560 is the savior

01:01:34.460 no timothy is

01:01:35.660 participating in

01:01:36.880 by cooperating

01:01:38.260 with god

01:01:38.720 helping and

01:01:39.680 being a conduit

01:01:40.360 of grace to

01:01:40.980 those around

01:01:41.520 him in the

01:01:42.360 same way

01:01:42.900 mary and

01:01:43.480 other saints

01:01:44.120 are not god

01:01:45.500 they're conduits

01:01:46.620 that pray for

01:01:47.440 us and help

01:01:47.980 us exactly

01:01:48.980 the way paul

01:01:49.460 is talking

01:01:49.720 to timothy

01:01:50.080 if you've

01:01:50.520 ever asked

01:01:50.980 your buddy

01:01:51.560 to pray

01:01:51.920 for you

01:01:52.240 i'm going

01:01:52.600 through something

01:01:53.080 that's that's

01:01:53.680 the saints

01:01:54.700 thing is

01:01:55.080 absolutely

01:01:55.740 retarded

01:01:56.560 uh when

01:01:57.600 when protestants

01:01:58.260 spurred out

01:01:58.700 about this

01:01:59.140 it's it's

01:01:59.600 literally asking

01:02:00.400 the saints

01:02:00.960 in heaven

01:02:01.420 to pray

01:02:01.740 for us

01:02:02.140 they're closer

01:02:02.780 to god

01:02:03.200 it's the

01:02:03.640 the church

01:02:04.280 triumphant

01:02:05.000 rather than

01:02:05.980 the people

01:02:06.320 that if i

01:02:06.780 ask you to

01:02:07.120 pray for me

01:02:07.520 you're still

01:02:08.000 church militant

01:02:09.000 it's it's a

01:02:09.640 closer prayer

01:02:10.200 to god

01:02:10.420 i'm just still

01:02:11.220 confused on why

01:02:12.080 icons are an

01:02:12.780 issue

01:02:12.900 okay wait

01:02:13.340 i don't

01:02:14.140 want to

01:02:17.440 we have icons

01:02:19.280 if a church

01:02:20.200 did not if a

01:02:20.920 church refused

01:02:21.400 you're missing

01:02:21.900 the point

01:02:22.420 they would not

01:02:23.360 be recognized

01:02:23.980 as a church

01:02:24.440 we've we've we

01:02:25.600 i don't want to

01:02:26.260 go in circles on

01:02:26.740 that over and

01:02:27.080 over and over

01:02:27.340 again with

01:02:27.600 everyone saying

01:02:27.920 the same thing

01:02:28.380 so i have a

01:02:29.020 i got a question

01:02:29.660 um do each of

01:02:31.280 you think you

01:02:32.380 will meet each

01:02:33.020 other in heaven

01:02:34.220 or no

01:02:34.680 yes my church

01:02:36.260 does well i

01:02:37.600 guess it's true

01:02:38.040 if you think

01:02:38.460 that right

01:02:38.920 if it's more

01:02:40.260 liberal does that

01:02:40.820 make it true

01:02:41.260 it's not liberal

01:02:42.240 we are it's a

01:02:43.720 liberal position

01:02:44.600 it's not liberal

01:02:46.040 liberal in a

01:02:47.720 different sense

01:02:48.140 you're saying

01:02:49.240 no you're a

01:02:49.680 trinitarian

01:02:50.180 you're a

01:02:50.800 trinitarian

01:02:51.300 i'm a trinitarian

01:02:51.880 who decides that

01:02:52.620 that's the

01:02:52.940 sacraments

01:02:54.300 how do you know

01:02:54.740 my apostolic

01:02:55.380 succession goes

01:02:56.060 back just as

01:02:56.720 far as yours

01:02:57.220 and yours

01:02:57.660 what is the

01:02:58.580 all you've done

01:02:59.040 is assert your

01:02:59.580 position

01:02:59.960 it's a true

01:03:01.000 position

01:03:01.380 you haven't

01:03:01.980 rejected

01:03:02.300 you haven't

01:03:02.760 actually rejected

01:03:03.360 i'm gonna mute

01:03:04.000 but i've already

01:03:04.520 showed you twice

01:03:05.200 i'm kidding

01:03:06.180 don't actually

01:03:06.680 you have

01:03:07.500 you have said

01:03:08.420 you have said

01:03:09.340 that

01:03:09.480 do you even

01:03:09.880 understand the

01:03:10.420 arguments i'm

01:03:10.880 making

01:03:11.080 it's not tiktok

01:03:11.600 your argument

01:03:12.180 seems to be

01:03:13.100 can you restate

01:03:13.720 the argument

01:03:14.120 your argument

01:03:14.740 seems to be

01:03:15.540 that if

01:03:16.180 somebody

01:03:16.820 doesn't have

01:03:18.460 icons in their

01:03:19.380 house

01:03:19.700 they should be

01:03:20.520 excommunicated

01:03:20.720 no i didn't

01:03:21.340 that is so dumb

01:03:22.380 that is not at all

01:03:23.140 what i said

01:03:23.540 you're not

01:03:23.880 iconoclast

01:03:24.420 do you think

01:03:25.560 these two gentlemen

01:03:26.220 will meet you

01:03:26.740 in heaven

01:03:27.060 we don't make

01:03:28.260 personal judgments

01:03:29.160 on people's

01:03:29.820 destinies

01:03:30.400 all we know

01:03:31.180 is that

01:03:31.740 we believe

01:03:32.300 that the orthodox

01:03:32.840 church is the

01:03:33.560 ark

01:03:33.820 it is the

01:03:34.340 mystical body

01:03:34.860 of christ

01:03:35.300 and so

01:03:35.880 it's our duty

01:03:36.520 to tell people

01:03:37.180 to join it

01:03:37.780 we can't say

01:03:38.800 what god will

01:03:39.500 judge at the

01:03:40.160 end of time

01:03:40.700 and at the

01:03:41.180 great

01:03:41.320 so let's put it

01:03:42.060 this way

01:03:42.220 outside of them

01:03:42.960 individually

01:03:43.540 you think

01:03:44.600 it is less

01:03:45.360 likely

01:03:45.720 that people

01:03:46.540 who don't

01:03:46.940 follow your

01:03:47.260 religion

01:03:47.520 will find

01:03:48.080 their way

01:03:48.260 less likely

01:03:48.760 and then

01:03:49.180 how do you

01:03:49.820 guys view

01:03:50.160 it catholics

01:03:50.580 highly similar

01:03:52.040 almost identical

01:03:53.140 view

01:03:53.460 we do believe

01:03:54.620 you have to be

01:03:55.240 in communion

01:03:55.940 with rome

01:03:56.780 but there

01:03:58.340 are exceptions

01:03:59.260 like baptism

01:04:00.980 by desire

01:04:01.680 does everyone

01:04:02.120 agree that the

01:04:02.700 holy land

01:04:03.060 belongs to

01:04:03.560 rome

01:04:03.760 rome

01:04:05.720 depends on

01:04:06.460 how you

01:04:06.700 define rome

01:04:07.700 well i think

01:04:08.380 parts of the

01:04:08.740 holy land

01:04:09.220 belong to

01:04:10.080 the orthodox

01:04:11.020 church

01:04:11.120 the orthodox

01:04:11.460 church is the

01:04:12.020 third largest

01:04:12.720 landowner

01:04:13.300 in israel

01:04:13.760 so

01:04:14.360 oh wow

01:04:14.800 the jerusalem

01:04:15.840 patriarchy would

01:04:16.620 probably be the

01:04:17.180 best claimant

01:04:17.960 in fact

01:04:18.300 i was half

01:04:19.640 kidding

01:04:19.860 it was a joke

01:04:20.200 from seamus

01:04:20.740 over the

01:04:21.700 israel-palestine

01:04:22.320 debate

01:04:22.540 belongs to

01:04:24.760 christians

01:04:25.200 at one time

01:04:26.640 in the middle

01:04:27.040 ages it was a

01:04:27.620 byzantine

01:04:28.060 it was part of

01:04:29.460 the byzantine

01:04:29.780 empire

01:04:30.100 so it was at

01:04:30.960 one point a

01:04:31.540 christian colony

01:04:32.620 so to speak

01:04:33.180 yeah

01:04:35.280 there's a chat

01:04:36.860 here i'm going to

01:04:37.200 read

01:04:37.340 that's in

01:04:37.620 that's um

01:04:38.200 i guess

01:04:39.540 somewhat

01:04:39.740 insulting

01:04:40.080 to me

01:04:40.520 this um

01:04:43.020 h brossey

01:04:43.880 says this was

01:04:44.300 always the

01:04:44.660 problem with

01:04:45.100 tim hosting

01:04:45.600 the debate

01:04:46.040 you know

01:04:47.280 it's going

01:04:47.540 to turn

01:04:47.800 into something

01:04:48.340 something uh

01:04:49.580 he brings up

01:04:50.160 with no

01:04:50.640 epistemic

01:04:51.420 foundation

01:04:51.880 uh my

01:04:54.120 view is

01:04:54.460 kind of

01:04:54.700 like

01:04:54.940 yeah probably

01:04:56.340 because i

01:04:57.060 don't follow

01:04:57.540 any of these

01:04:58.060 religions

01:04:58.460 or or

01:04:59.840 or um

01:05:00.560 i do believe

01:05:01.160 in god

01:05:01.540 i guess

01:05:02.220 theist is

01:05:02.900 probably the

01:05:03.500 best word

01:05:04.260 not deist

01:05:04.860 but if

01:05:05.880 if i can't

01:05:08.080 be convinced

01:05:08.840 if you can't

01:05:09.540 convince you

01:05:10.340 know if you

01:05:10.840 find somebody

01:05:11.220 like yeah

01:05:11.900 they believe

01:05:12.200 in god

01:05:12.440 it's like

01:05:12.620 okay here's

01:05:13.140 why we're

01:05:14.520 correct

01:05:14.980 if it's

01:05:15.840 esoteric

01:05:16.480 and hard

01:05:17.300 to understand

01:05:17.780 and you

01:05:18.100 can't easily

01:05:18.580 explain why

01:05:19.300 your religion

01:05:19.700 is correct

01:05:20.240 to someone

01:05:21.500 like me

01:05:22.060 then how

01:05:22.980 do you

01:05:23.240 convert

01:05:23.560 people

01:05:23.740 that's a

01:05:24.660 muslim

01:05:24.920 argument

01:05:25.160 muslims

01:05:25.560 will say

01:05:25.940 our religion

01:05:26.480 is true

01:05:26.960 because it's

01:05:27.600 simpler

01:05:28.080 but then when

01:05:28.660 you get into

01:05:29.200 the religion

01:05:29.660 you realize

01:05:30.240 oh actually

01:05:30.760 there's a

01:05:31.080 million hadiths

01:05:31.800 that you

01:05:31.980 gotta learn

01:05:32.480 and it's

01:05:32.760 really complex

01:05:33.460 i'm not

01:05:33.940 i'm saying

01:05:34.720 how do you

01:05:35.180 convince someone

01:05:35.720 who doesn't

01:05:36.200 know about

01:05:36.920 the ecumenical

01:05:37.580 councils

01:05:37.980 and all of

01:05:38.820 that stuff

01:05:39.300 so i hear

01:05:40.300 i hear a lot

01:05:41.260 of very

01:05:41.980 esoteric

01:05:42.640 terms that

01:05:43.220 i'm like

01:05:44.500 unum sanctum

01:05:45.100 i don't know

01:05:46.000 what that is

01:05:46.560 but jay's not

01:05:47.500 i'm not trying

01:05:48.340 to be evangelical

01:05:49.100 right now

01:05:49.820 jay's not

01:05:50.440 none of us

01:05:51.500 really are trying

01:05:51.980 to be evangelical

01:05:52.660 because when you

01:05:53.280 bring everyone

01:05:53.720 into a room

01:05:54.480 the catholic

01:05:55.400 and the orthodox

01:05:56.060 are going to be

01:05:56.520 debating councils

01:05:57.540 and and and

01:05:58.240 specifically what

01:05:58.940 the constitutions

01:05:59.800 require

01:06:00.360 so it sounds

01:06:01.280 boring and stupid

01:06:02.080 but but it's

01:06:03.000 actually important

01:06:03.800 the way anyone

01:06:04.720 would evangelize

01:06:05.740 i guess since

01:06:06.580 you do have a

01:06:07.140 more secular

01:06:07.580 audience is by

01:06:08.380 saying christy

01:06:10.360 christianity is

01:06:11.620 demonstrably true

01:06:12.900 i was demonstrably

01:06:15.340 sui generis

01:06:16.140 it's unlike

01:06:16.580 but i'll pause on

01:06:17.540 say i think it's

01:06:18.220 probably like 85 percent

01:06:19.520 christian of different

01:06:20.780 denominations that

01:06:21.680 watch

01:06:22.000 okay yeah well

01:06:23.540 fair enough

01:06:23.960 but then you have

01:06:25.020 very few atheists

01:06:25.700 actually you have to

01:06:26.320 ask which which

01:06:27.220 version of christianity

01:06:28.340 to the 85 percent

01:06:29.580 that are already

01:06:30.120 convinced correctly

01:06:31.260 that christianity is

01:06:32.140 true you have to

01:06:32.880 say which of the

01:06:33.860 competing sects

01:06:35.480 orthodoxy is we

01:06:37.040 would say much

01:06:38.180 much much much

01:06:38.900 closer have the

01:06:40.780 four marks of the

01:06:41.500 church and and can

01:06:42.480 trace their the

01:06:43.820 the practice of the

01:06:44.860 religion today all the

01:06:46.000 way back to our lord

01:06:47.260 handing the keys to

01:06:48.280 blessed peter

01:06:49.060 that's that's what we

01:06:50.780 would say if we're

01:06:51.360 kind of putting it in

01:06:52.120 in broad forward

01:06:52.980 facing terms and

01:06:53.940 then that's precisely

01:06:54.760 what i see with uh

01:06:55.880 with recently with uh

01:06:57.700 uh the the new pope

01:07:00.080 uh he's from chicago

01:07:02.120 and a lot of chicago

01:07:03.580 jokes but uh there

01:07:05.360 was another cardinal

01:07:06.380 who had made comments

01:07:07.920 about supporting the

01:07:08.760 lgbtq community i

01:07:10.620 forgot he was the guy

01:07:11.380 from the philippines

01:07:12.060 and there was big

01:07:13.900 concern over his

01:07:15.140 views on overtly

01:07:17.780 political cultural

01:07:19.020 political issues and

01:07:20.860 to me i look at that

01:07:21.540 and i'm like how how

01:07:22.480 could there be truth

01:07:24.700 in an ever-evolving

01:07:26.280 political climate that

01:07:27.520 tries to adhere to

01:07:28.460 politics well that's

01:07:29.800 the biggest problem

01:07:30.200 with the catholic

01:07:30.620 church historically is

01:07:31.520 it's very intertwined

01:07:32.480 with politics always

01:07:33.620 has been i my my

01:07:34.940 personally my opinion

01:07:35.800 is that catholic the

01:07:38.200 catholic church is

01:07:39.220 trying to maintain as

01:07:40.360 large a base as

01:07:41.560 possible and so you

01:07:42.980 end up with people

01:07:43.580 like francis and i

01:07:44.800 forgot the name of

01:07:45.260 this guy this

01:07:46.340 filipino guy who said

01:07:47.280 some like the the

01:07:48.100 all these uh gay

01:07:49.360 websites i mean

01:07:50.360 literally gay websites

01:07:51.060 not insulting them

01:07:52.380 like we're we're

01:07:53.060 vatican.va oh the

01:07:55.720 gay website no

01:07:57.000 there's like pink

01:07:57.500 news i think it was

01:07:58.760 and like lgbt nation

01:08:00.100 or whatever we're

01:08:00.860 saying like this is

01:08:01.860 the good guy he

01:08:02.620 should be the pope

01:08:03.220 because he was

01:08:04.420 saying things like

01:08:05.160 it's time to

01:08:05.640 recognize gay marriage

01:08:06.660 or whatever or or

01:08:07.700 like things like that

01:08:08.560 going beyond what

01:08:09.240 francis had said

01:08:09.720 with blessings the

01:08:10.720 vaticanist has all

01:08:11.620 said that this is

01:08:12.480 what between him and

01:08:14.120 the uh cardinal of

01:08:15.380 bologna and some of

01:08:17.380 the other far left

01:08:18.200 cardinals that were

01:08:19.120 considered papavili

01:08:20.220 popable at the last

01:08:21.860 conclave last month

01:08:23.160 this is specifically

01:08:24.720 why they weren't

01:08:25.860 selected even though

01:08:27.140 they're considered

01:08:27.680 most papavili because

01:08:28.920 we tried this with

01:08:30.120 francis and it's true

01:08:31.940 it's i would never

01:08:32.840 deny as probably one

01:08:34.260 of one of francis's

01:08:35.020 best known uh

01:08:36.200 american lay critics

01:08:37.440 who is catholic uh

01:08:39.280 the church is trying

01:08:40.560 uh uh a bad

01:08:42.340 approach to winning

01:08:44.660 over converts since

01:08:46.400 a little bit before

01:08:47.320 vatican ii and what

01:08:48.400 what they're actually

01:08:48.940 finding now and the

01:08:50.260 boomers and the

01:08:50.880 dinosaurs in the

01:08:51.820 cardinal it are

01:08:52.700 finding to their

01:08:53.520 chagrin is that

01:08:54.960 they're really mad

01:08:55.700 about it francis

01:08:56.400 hated it he said

01:08:57.160 these people have

01:08:57.860 psychological problems

01:08:58.880 they like to go to

01:08:59.880 the latin mass they

01:09:00.860 like to go back to

01:09:01.640 the the mass of the

01:09:02.700 ages to that's this

01:09:03.840 is what i see in the

01:09:04.400 trends as well that

01:09:05.700 we're finding that

01:09:06.520 gen z younger gen z

01:09:08.100 not older gen z are

01:09:09.140 finding faith in jesus

01:09:10.300 christ that that's that

01:09:11.820 that polling was

01:09:12.680 non-denominational it was

01:09:13.580 just they were saying

01:09:14.300 it uh the men are

01:09:16.000 leaning more

01:09:16.420 conservative and

01:09:17.680 then uh you know i

01:09:19.420 suppose it's a it's a

01:09:20.360 it's a factor in that

01:09:21.100 catholicism is so big and

01:09:23.040 when the pope would you

01:09:24.220 know when the pope passed

01:09:24.800 away and they were

01:09:25.300 choosing the new pope it's

01:09:26.460 the biggest story in the

01:09:27.300 world so i can understand

01:09:28.140 it it just feels like

01:09:29.920 they're lying to people to

01:09:31.100 try and build up

01:09:31.900 membership numbers that's

01:09:33.000 what it feels like

01:09:33.620 i agree you want to get

01:09:35.640 into lies of the roman

01:09:36.400 catholic church

01:09:37.260 like the donation of

01:09:39.500 constantine for example

01:09:40.280 this is not this is not

01:09:41.160 that time that his church

01:09:42.120 told the world that

01:09:43.200 constantine gave them the

01:09:45.260 entire western empire to

01:09:46.760 be their domain to

01:09:47.640 clarify i'm not saying

01:09:48.620 this of catholics i'm

01:09:49.780 saying that the current

01:09:50.940 leadership seemed to be

01:09:52.700 their political strategy

01:09:53.580 of yeah we need more

01:09:54.980 converts so let's say what

01:09:56.240 we have to say to get

01:09:56.980 them to come and my

01:09:57.600 church is doing the

01:09:58.260 opposite thing we

01:09:59.020 separated from the

01:09:59.920 larger church because we

01:10:00.920 felt that they were doing

01:10:01.700 that

01:10:02.020 again separating as i said

01:10:05.380 earlier makes you not a

01:10:06.560 part of that thing sure

01:10:07.540 what was it what were

01:10:08.140 you gonna say so the

01:10:09.660 the point that i raised

01:10:11.540 earlier about the same

01:10:12.420 papacy all right wait

01:10:13.520 let's let's move on

01:10:14.480 the papacy we didn't

01:10:15.560 separate we believe they

01:10:16.840 left us and we believe

01:10:18.600 they left us that's why i

01:10:19.860 did an internal critique

01:10:20.660 which you don't understand

01:10:21.400 but no you didn't make

01:10:22.660 your argument was veiled

01:10:24.200 in esoteric language we

01:10:25.280 don't need to keep going

01:10:26.280 to us communicate

01:10:27.180 iconic language the basic

01:10:29.180 terms make your make

01:10:30.160 your point on so the the

01:10:32.800 issue with unum sanctum all

01:10:34.080 the way up to the syllabus

01:10:35.300 of errors in the 1800s

01:10:36.480 where you had to believe

01:10:37.720 in the temporal power and

01:10:38.840 supremacy of the roman

01:10:39.500 bishop to be saved it was

01:10:41.140 mandated all that time for

01:10:42.860 those centuries to be

01:10:44.100 necessary to be saved

01:10:45.360 which the vatican no longer

01:10:47.140 believes for uh salvific

01:10:49.140 purposes they might

01:10:50.220 theoretically still believe

01:10:51.400 it who knows but i think

01:10:52.580 vatican ii contradicts that

01:10:53.900 with the dechristianizing

01:10:55.840 uh principles but the point

01:10:57.860 is that ever since the papal

01:10:59.640 states ever since the 11th

01:11:01.680 century especially with the

01:11:02.460 gregorian reforms the papacy has

01:11:04.140 united itself with and tied

01:11:05.680 itself into politics at a

01:11:07.760 intent and at an intense

01:11:09.280 level and that's not all

01:11:10.440 totally the fault of rome or

01:11:11.860 just power seeking you had

01:11:13.420 the collapse of the roman

01:11:14.740 empire which led to the

01:11:16.160 vacuum that allowed the

01:11:17.180 papacy to step in but by the

01:11:19.220 time that we get to dictatis

01:11:20.820 papi just a couple things that

01:11:22.120 we have in this document the

01:11:23.880 pope alone can use the

01:11:25.300 imperial signet insignia all

01:11:27.240 princes in the world must kiss

01:11:28.380 the pope's feet this is the

01:11:29.520 only name in the world he alone

01:11:30.940 may depose all emperors he

01:11:32.240 alone may confirm all bishops

01:11:34.000 uh the roman see has never

01:11:36.100 erred and will never err unto

01:11:37.360 the end of time the roman

01:11:38.780 church is founded by god

01:11:39.720 alone the roman church alone

01:11:41.320 can call itself universal it

01:11:42.960 can alone depose or reinstate

01:11:44.280 bishops now already we've

01:11:46.000 seen that from dictatis papi

01:11:47.540 in the 11th century that's a

01:11:49.160 contradiction with the way the

01:11:50.440 councils uh acted and

01:11:51.820 operated in the first several

01:11:53.180 centuries so the roman bishop

01:11:54.840 becomes a geopolitical world

01:11:56.160 power particularly in the 11th

01:11:58.560 century comes to its uh nadir

01:12:01.140 uh you could say a few

01:12:02.180 centuries later and it is

01:12:03.940 still intimately tied up with

01:12:06.260 geopolitics because the cia had

01:12:08.020 a huge alliance with the

01:12:10.260 vatican during the cold war and

01:12:12.040 at vatican 2 on record and many

01:12:14.000 many catholic writers what is

01:12:15.420 what explain vatican 2 so this

01:12:17.940 is the council in the 1960s that

01:12:19.520 was called by john the 23rd

01:12:20.880 originally to update to uh make

01:12:23.820 the roman the roman see and the

01:12:25.300 roman church more amenable to the

01:12:26.920 world aggiornamento was his

01:12:28.520 terminology to open the doors and

01:12:30.320 let the world into the church

01:12:32.420 would you would you agree with

01:12:34.220 that assessment or no no so

01:12:35.940 vatican 2 was i mean it's true

01:12:37.640 that it was all those statements

01:12:38.560 are true it's true that it was

01:12:39.620 called by john the 23rd but what

01:12:41.320 happened at the end of vatican

01:12:42.540 one uh in in the 1870s is the

01:12:46.100 franco-prussian war interrupted it

01:12:47.780 vatican one is famous um if if we

01:12:51.260 look at both of the last two

01:12:52.420 councils of the roman catholic

01:12:53.500 church vatican one and vatican two

01:12:54.760 they're both vastly misunderstood

01:12:56.040 the reason vatican one is vastly

01:12:58.040 misunderstood is because the franco-prussian

01:12:59.860 war interrupted it literally in

01:13:02.760 between the two goals of vatican one

01:13:05.160 laying out the power of the pope

01:13:06.920 clarifying the power of the pope as

01:13:08.580 it had always been for 2000 years

01:13:10.140 1800 years um and laying out the power

01:13:12.880 of the bishops because it is a a

01:13:15.140 collegial relationship that the pope

01:13:17.120 has to them even though he is the

01:13:18.780 prince of the apostles um it got

01:13:21.300 interrupted and separated by the franco-prussian

01:13:24.600 war so vatican two so it ended up looking by the way

01:13:28.040 like uh just the pope's powers were laid

01:13:30.980 out the powers of the bishops were never

01:13:33.020 edumbrated because of uh the the sudden

01:13:35.380 conclusion of that it was never actually

01:13:37.580 concluded until john the 23rd concluded

01:13:40.340 it uh almost 100 years later 85 years

01:13:43.820 later right before he said okay we need

01:13:46.480 to have a vatican two to get to what the

01:13:48.480 power of the bishops are what was vatican

01:13:49.960 one vatican one laid out definitively what

01:13:52.880 the power of what was like a meeting was

01:13:54.680 all of these are ecumenical council which means

01:13:57.620 that it was a full council of the church called

01:13:59.380 thine emperor call not in all cases no no no it

01:14:03.620 was the first seven were called by emperors some

01:14:05.660 more were called by emperors council of

01:14:07.160 florence was but an ecumenical just means that

01:14:10.580 ecumenical council just means that it's all

01:14:12.740 the world um all the bishops of the world

01:14:14.860 vatican one concludes suddenly uh getting just to

01:14:19.140 what the power of the pope is which gave made it gave it a

01:14:21.480 lopsided look our ecclesiology afterwards vatican

01:14:24.880 two needed to be held to get to what the power of

01:14:27.480 the bishops were once we started getting more liberal

01:14:31.680 popes like john the 23rd and paul the sixth who are the

01:14:34.560 two popes alive during vatican two in the 1960s

01:14:37.220 they changed the agenda actually it was carl rauner and

01:14:41.380 joseph cardinal ratzinger who a lot of people think was a

01:14:44.960 right winger in the church he was not

01:14:46.440 he and rauner together changed the agenda from finishing what vatican one was

01:14:52.160 supposed to do lay out the power of the bishops

01:14:53.860 to what he called uh aggiornamento updating the church uh doing doing

01:15:00.320 essentially liberal things now the the documents themselves are are not

01:15:04.160 are not bad the documents themselves are sure about that insinuative yeah i

01:15:09.040 read some of the documents yeah once i get done yeah the documents

01:15:12.300 themselves are insinuative uh of a a more liberal position and they were

01:15:17.340 intentionally written in such a way that they would be that they could be

01:15:21.420 weaponized later uh lots of the the council fathers that were raunerites

01:15:26.780 admitted this um things like you know what's our relationship to be with the

01:15:31.780 muslims j j um made reference to this earlier what's our relationship to be with

01:15:36.060 the hindus and it sounded more liberal really what they were doing was quoting

01:15:40.180 things from pope pius the tenth a very based older pope they're quoting even

01:15:44.280 from medieval popes who acknowledge things like technically speaking uh the

01:15:49.680 muslims are monotheists technically they're one of the western religions

01:15:53.500 technically they they worship the one true god but they worship the one true god

01:15:57.740 in the false way trads you know rad trads orthodox everyone gets worked up about

01:16:03.280 this but it turns out that this is a very very old medieval term that the church

01:16:07.060 is that the same for hinduism because vatican 2 says the same he says they

01:16:10.740 they believe they believe not about hindus hindus not muslims hindus okay

01:16:15.780 read what it says about hindus thus in hinduism people explore the divine

01:16:19.800 mystery and they explore it and express it how do you explore the true mystery of

01:16:24.780 god explore you can explore and find what you're looking for no you don't you don't

01:16:28.200 you don't explore christianity it's an absolutely don't explore christianity in

01:16:31.920 hinduism they seek release from the trials of present life through ascetic

01:16:35.520 practices and meditation and recourse to god in confidence i agree all that's bad but

01:16:40.660 you missed the term so it's bad my uncle remus wait wait my uncle remus believes

01:16:45.400 your dog he's like your uncle can fly no this is your dogmatic statements that are supposed

01:16:49.280 to provide clarity right they need to be interpreted by you because they're ambiguous

01:16:53.900 no no are they clear or ambiguous perfectly clear they're hindu really you just said it

01:16:57.840 was bad or the divine it was bad wait but is it clear or bad you finish jay i'll go

01:17:02.800 after you're done they have recourse to god dads will do the same thing so just again what is that

01:17:07.900 we have said of a collection irrelevant what's that was no no that's a direct object that's a

01:17:11.420 genetic fallacy that's a direct object genetic fallacy to say that because it is i'm logic

01:17:16.280 professor you just said i don't know so appeal to yourself right appeal to authority appeal to

01:17:20.260 authority genetic fallacy you miss another fallacy they believe you're king of fallacy record we

01:17:25.160 agree they believe you're lying you added that explore where does it say they do that read

01:17:29.560 the senate it says that they seek release and they have recourse to god and confidence and love

01:17:34.580 they seek they have recourse no and have recourse they seek and have recourse okay and what he's

01:17:40.640 doing say and recourse finish up and recourse finish up what does that mean recourse they have

01:17:45.280 re they seek in god they can attain salvation and love in god i'll speak once he's done so what

01:17:52.080 in the vatican 2 document said i was very honest by the way it's a genetic fallacy that can i see the

01:17:56.880 book yeah yeah read the sentence paragraph right here because vatican 2 let me read it again for

01:18:03.000 you i was just close to getting in the in the religion in the religion of hinduism people explore

01:18:08.200 the divine mystery explore thank you i just said that this doesn't mean they found repeat each word

01:18:13.240 after i say each what have you said ascertained if they said ascertained we'd have a hard time so he

01:18:17.680 doesn't want me to read the whole quote because he knows the later later part is what he's saying

01:18:21.880 the difference between hinduism is very real they have recourse to god in confidence and love

01:18:28.120 start the sentence over they seek jay thinks that the sentence said that hindus have ascertained

01:18:38.280 the truth they haven't ascertained it it says that through exploring it now but you said it was a bad

01:18:43.820 statement earlier no no no i said that's not that's from can i see it read the document i'm saying that

01:18:50.140 it's very easy to misinterpret if i say my dear old uncle remus why do we need you to interpret

01:18:57.060 the document you're saying why do we need you to interpret the document i need you to interpret

01:19:00.280 the document that's too quick again the logic professor keeps making fallacies asked me what

01:19:06.120 i thought why do you need to interpret them let me read it there's a paragraph before that one i want

01:19:11.520 to read i want to i just want to read the full paragraph good or actually this is part of the full

01:19:15.540 paragraph it says throughout history to the present day there is found among different peoples a certain

01:19:19.920 awareness of a hidden power which lies behind the course of nature and the events of human life

01:19:24.460 at times there is present even a recognition of a supreme being or still more of a father this

01:19:31.080 awareness and recognition results in a way of life that is imbued with a deep religious sense

01:19:35.180 the religions which are found in more advanced civilizations endeavor by way of well-defined

01:19:40.020 concepts and exact language to answer these questions thus in hinduism people explore the divine

01:19:46.660 mystery and express it both in the limitless riches of myth and the accurately defined insights of

01:19:52.260 philosophy they seek release from the trials of the present life by ascetical practices profound

01:19:58.000 meditation and recourse to god in confidence and love buddhism in its various forms testifies to god

01:20:04.720 the essential inadequacy of this changing world it proposes a way of life by which people can with

01:20:09.680 confidence and trust attain a state of perfect liberation and reach supreme illumination either

01:20:14.800 through their own efforts or with divine help so too other religions which are found throughout

01:20:19.280 the world attempt in different ways to overcome the restlessness of people's hearts by outlining a

01:20:24.920 program of life covering doctrine moral precepts and sacred rights yeah this is their perfect

01:20:30.120 liberation in hinduism now real quick i do want to reach a little bit i did want to read the one

01:20:35.120 paragraph there's a little bit more that i think is interesting you already said it's bad it goes on

01:20:38.180 you said it was badly worded in you now because people like oh so people like me right so again

01:20:43.840 another fallacy ad hominem ad hominem so so it actually five fallacies tim good job it actually

01:20:48.220 says here we have a mute button immediately following because he's calling out i'm calling

01:20:51.760 out the logic professor's fallacies i just want to point out that by that okay sorry sorry but

01:20:56.440 immediately following this paragraph it says the catholic church rejects nothing of what is true

01:21:01.160 and holy in these religions there it is a high regard for the manner of life and conduct

01:21:06.080 uh conduct the precepts and doctrines which although differing in many ways from its own

01:21:10.240 teaching nevertheless often reflect array of that truth which enlightens all men and women

01:21:15.240 yet it proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail christ who is the way the truth and

01:21:21.020 life in him in whom god reconciled all things to himself people find the fullness of their religious

01:21:26.320 life thank you i was i was gonna ask all that all that shows is a contradiction no no that doesn't

01:21:31.680 help you i actually i actually agree with with the catholic view it's basically saying the way i

01:21:37.460 interpret that it's saying hindus and buddhists are looking through a keyhole and seeing these

01:21:40.820 fragments that they're not quite understanding properly and if they were to adhere to jesus

01:21:45.440 christ and find the way precisely the problem is that and that's precisely what all the even non-liberals

01:21:50.280 of the council problem is that only it's written by john 14 jesus says that he's the only way right

01:21:55.520 the truth in the life it says that no but i understand that the problem is that you cannot it says

01:22:00.220 in the religions of hinduism and in buddhism men find love in god and they find they seek love

01:22:06.340 no it says they find it they believe they one phrase says seek it then it says they find it just

01:22:11.920 like it read it again just like it says muslims adore the one god no no it says this adoration

01:22:16.260 well muslims are different because they're not religion no they're not yeah they do they believe

01:22:20.420 what's a western religion do you believe do they believe in one god or multiple they believe in

01:22:23.940 monotheism does the bible teach of course does the bible teach the trinity or monotheism

01:22:29.320 the the trinity but so then muslims don't believe in the god of the bible you know the do you know

01:22:33.780 what the sense uh reference dichotomy is okay so i have a question so if you understand what sense

01:22:38.940 reference dichotomy what is jesus okay we can be referring to the same thing does jesus you describe

01:22:43.360 it as yellow i describe it as red and we're still referring to the same thing you're misunderstanding

01:22:47.480 the reference dichotomy does jesus think that the pharisees accurately worship the father

01:22:52.820 no of course not so then that undoes your argument no no no okay undoes your muslim

01:22:58.580 explain because you said you understand the sense reference dichotomy explain how by sense

01:23:02.980 word concept answer is affirmative and by reference it would be a negative answer we can be referring

01:23:08.240 to the same thing if you think cleveland is cincinnati and i think you just prove your sense

01:23:12.180 reference argument and we're not that you want me to just prove your sense just answer the question

01:23:15.120 i can disprove it by most by mormons sense reference do mormons believe in jesus no but

01:23:22.140 mormons don't believe no do they use the term jesus no they don't yeah they do they're not use the

01:23:26.660 term mormons absolutely use the term jesus it's mormons use the term jesus wait wait no do mormons

01:23:31.080 mormons believe mormons believe jesus is let it well i'm the one guy that hasn't been interrupting

01:23:37.060 so mormons believe that there is a historical jesus he believes that he that that mormons believe

01:23:42.660 jesus was not the son of god i know what they believe of course name of their religion so just

01:23:46.920 like muslims if they say i believe in the one god it's the quantifier shift fallacy no that's true

01:23:52.360 it's the quantum it's true but that's what the document is if it's the quantifier shift fallacy

01:23:56.420 then that undoes what what does that mean what does that mean so it's like if i say i have one

01:24:00.160 mother you have one mother we all have one mother therefore we come from the same mother it's a

01:24:04.340 quantifying shift fallacy so one god while we all believe in one god therefore it's the same god

01:24:09.880 vatican 2 is using the quantifier shift fallacy and read the line read the line that you think

01:24:15.580 is false definitively because there are no definitive statements you've read that are

01:24:19.680 false notice that seeking searching exploring why do we need my uncle believes he can fly

01:24:25.300 this is retarded i think i think the quantifier shift fallacy is retarded i think okay guys guys

01:24:29.900 no let me say this claim that there's something false you just read is retarded okay let me let me

01:24:35.000 it's written by liberals i gave you that it's written by liberals but it's supposed to clarify

01:24:39.640 so the papacy does the does the job of clarifying but it's written by liberals and we need tim to

01:24:44.400 interpret it for you don't need me to interpret anything i'm defending against an attack that

01:24:48.800 you're making that's that's common muslims work miscarriage one true god living and subsisting in

01:24:53.600 himself yeah yeah quantifier shift fallacy they don't say it's a pretty tough one to get

01:24:58.980 quantifier shift fallacy i'm dealing with two bargain dogs every time muslims claim how about this

01:25:04.540 muslims claim to believe in one god it doesn't say it says they adore it doesn't say they claim

01:25:09.040 muslims do adding the words now they adore by this by the sense reference dichotomy right

01:25:14.320 it does okay wait wait hold on i'm gonna read this i'm gonna read this oh yeah read it this is

01:25:19.160 important uh it says the church also has a high regard for the muslims they worship god who is one

01:25:25.460 living and merciful and all right what i said i'm not done i'm not done i'm not done the creator of

01:25:32.800 heaven and earth who was also spoken to humanity they endeavor to submit themselves without reserve

01:25:36.980 to the hidden decrees of god just as abraham submitted himself to god's plan just like abraham

01:25:40.240 and whose faith muslims eagerly link to their own although not acknowledging him uh as god they

01:25:46.180 venerate jesus as a prophet his virgin mother they also honor and even at times devoutly invoke further

01:25:51.120 they await the day of judgment and the reward of and the reward of god following the resurrection of

01:25:55.640 the dead for this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship god especially by way of

01:26:01.680 prayer alms deeds and fasting it it does seem like they're saying as far as i can tell muslims

01:26:08.600 are worshiping the same god yes well yes this is this is a community college primer on intro to

01:26:14.160 religions and and you mean how you couldn't get quantifiers it's in your islam is literally one of

01:26:19.500 the three monotheisms in western religion is it triune no so by oh it's not the god of the bible

01:26:24.480 according to you i said the bible god is the trinity no yes you did well of course you don't think i think

01:26:29.700 the bible god is the trinity then the muslims don't worship the same god because of the

01:26:33.400 quantifier shift fallacy the muslims don't worship the same god it doesn't say the same god as us

01:26:37.640 the book says they do thank you no thank you can you read it against him they don't worship the same

01:26:42.500 god muslims are you serious what's going on here how are we having this discussion they worship

01:26:47.900 god who is living and subsisting in himself same we're merciful almighty creator no you said the same

01:26:53.640 god is us as us is you and i no no it doesn't say us oh so it doesn't say us are you serious

01:26:59.460 dude muslims worship how many how many gods do muslims worship jay doesn't say jay dyer how many

01:27:05.440 gods do muslims worship how many do they worship by the way one or two or three i don't believe in

01:27:11.420 generic monotheism that's a that's a word that that's a distinction i i also don't agree uh i

01:27:17.300 believe it's the quantifiership fallacy okay one thing for certain is the muslims you don't believe

01:27:22.480 that they believe they worship one god it doesn't matter because the statement is that you said you

01:27:26.780 understood the sense they do worship they do worship the one true god tim but what you're

01:27:32.600 quibbling over failing is whether or not you're melting the verb and the direct object there are

01:27:37.320 in agreement we don't need a grammar lesson literally you do need a grammar lesson no you do

01:27:42.020 okay you're a logic professor you couldn't do the quantifier shift fellowship this guy doesn't know

01:27:45.740 that islam claims to worship one it doesn't say they just claim it it says they do it says they

01:27:50.720 worship god not they worship a god the church the roman catholic church has always acknowledged this is the

01:27:56.140 roman catholic church since since pius the tenth since two different medieval popes that muslims

01:28:01.200 worship some in some sense the same god different reference no grammatically grammatically this is

01:28:07.980 very straightforward they worship god not a god they worship god and even the one true god the

01:28:13.660 church is what they don't they worship god who is one living and subsistent i'm not quibbling with

01:28:20.060 the protestant and orthodox i'm just saying what the church has always taught that is the that is

01:28:25.120 them saying they worship our god could you address the argument then how does it quantify the argument

01:28:29.780 is the church would be right if it said a god on islam tim you would be right that's the argument

01:28:34.140 god argument is what i can read you from the personal pius uh pius the ten catechism that it says

01:28:39.120 the one true god you might have issue with that it's wrong it doesn't represent a change okay guys

01:28:46.540 guys real quick real quick but it doesn't represent a change okay we're not doesn't represent a change

01:28:50.440 okay guys guys we're not praying the conversation is not advancing uh can i ask one question this

01:28:55.560 conversation has advanced a thousand years it's not i think it's actually been pretty pretty good

01:29:00.360 actually uh what what i interpret from that is that they were trying to say there is one true god

01:29:07.000 and even in that regard they're saying other religions are seeing it improperly and doing

01:29:11.980 it wrong like looking like the argument is you look through a keyhole right i think that's what

01:29:17.400 it's saying it's saying that's what they're saying that's what they're saying muslims are looking

01:29:20.120 through a hole and they're seeing something tiny and they're not doing it right hindus are looking

01:29:23.900 through a different hole so i i think the argument of the of the vet of etiquette too is there is only

01:29:29.740 one true god everyone else is just looking at it wrong right written by jesuits are very liberal so see

01:29:34.540 now they're now it's bad again now it's their church created the jesuits that's bad again that

01:29:38.360 was on them so so from the orthodox perspective yes the jesuits are catholic from the orthodox

01:29:42.120 newsflash protestant says jesuits are catholic you just complained about them and said they're too

01:29:46.340 liberal yes that's that's a well-known catholic catholics can catholics can be too liberal and it's

01:29:53.060 fine protestants the episcopal church where they yeah they have an ecclesiology still we also have

01:29:57.280 i got a question because i said that the jesuits trend liberal it doesn't mean that they're

01:30:03.240 protestants can you well you also expelled them because they were too liberal okay is the one

01:30:08.020 thing y'all can agree on is that the episcopal church is the inferior church the episcopal church

01:30:12.620 sucks do you all agree yeah we do that for sure sure so sure i want to i want to highlight too that

01:30:18.360 i think tim will have to admit this that post vatican ii we can see the actions of the papacy how

01:30:23.700 they interpret this document because they in many cases literally will go pray in mosque towards mecca

01:30:29.740 benedict the 16th did it also john paul ii did it uh excuse me uh uh benedict the 16th and francis

01:30:36.480 both did this where they went to the mosque they reverently prayed towards mecca that's an outward

01:30:41.300 expression of the interior disposition in roman catholic moral theology of their faith it's bad

01:30:46.520 it's not dogmatic that's uh vatican is not dogmatic no no vatican ii is dogmatic the pope's going in

01:30:53.400 and praying i'm saying that it expresses like it expresses their faith that's the patriarch of

01:30:58.240 constantinople i think i think he's a heretic i don't have a problem saying he's a heretic okay

01:31:01.600 but you can't say that you can't say the pope's a heretic uh francis francis was a material heretic

01:31:06.880 we don't know yet if he's a formal no one judges the first c do you no one has judged the first c

01:31:12.360 yet who can you're judging it now canon cardinals canon 750 says that laity do not have the right

01:31:19.340 to judge the bishops in the sea i'm not judging him that means you just said he's a material heretic

01:31:23.240 a material heretic and a formal judging i know what it means of course yeah i'm not for you don't

01:31:28.340 have authority but it also means that you don't it says that you have to submit with docility to the

01:31:32.040 to the rulings of the ordinary teaching of course that's not and you don't get to that's an action

01:31:36.400 then you don't get to say this is in conformity with with the liberal view with the liberal

01:31:41.560 misinterpretation you can't just talk over it did the council judge the intentional liberal

01:31:47.020 misinterpretation of those passages you'd read which i think tim interpreted wait wait which tim

01:31:51.840 interpreted correctly so i'm gonna be taken by popes and and i'll i'll i'll i'll just say this

01:31:57.320 okay uh that which i read is more convincing to me of the catholics well it i would agree if not for

01:32:06.200 the fact that it says muslims worship the same god it doesn't say same god he checked it

01:32:10.360 does it say same yes it says the word same but hold on are you serious it doesn't literally say

01:32:16.660 the same but it does grammatically who's making shit up who's the creator tim wait who's the

01:32:21.100 creator does it say same it says god it says they worship god capital g people out there

01:32:26.140 does this passage who is the creator microphone if no one else if people keep talking uh i think it's

01:32:31.900 correct okay but i i think i think muslims do worship god they don't they don't but not our god

01:32:36.760 so he already admitted and and so that says capital g god that's why this is convincing to

01:32:40.640 me and you guys aren't being convinced again if it said a god if it said a god i'd agree with you

01:32:45.580 but it says i i think i believe there's a god besides god i think there is what that's the sense

01:32:49.600 reference dichotomy right there so so you believe there's another god besides god so the popes pray

01:32:54.060 in my you just said you believe they they worship what i said okay god i said if if it said they

01:33:00.620 worship a god as important they believe they're worshiping a god who is similar no no not

01:33:06.740 they believe they really do remember that's him wait wait we're talking about your text it's your

01:33:11.920 text yeah you literally i know it's i know it's my text you literally what would make all the

01:33:16.180 difference is if they said that the muslims worship a god rather than a god you're making reference to

01:33:21.800 the sense reference dichotomy by saying a no that's why you couldn't answer the kind of

01:33:26.080 you're either not understanding what i said or you're not understanding his argument i'm not

01:33:31.480 deliberately misrepresenting anything i'm saying then you don't understand what i said

01:33:35.340 the sense reference dichotomy literally covers whether or not they say god we don't need to

01:33:40.440 go to sense reference dichotomy this is grammar well do you know what it is yes okay guys this

01:33:45.140 is grammar it it's a grammatical distinction tim understands it's the same god he okay he is not

01:33:50.300 but not saying it's simply because it does it says they worship god capital g god i'm going to quote

01:33:56.040 my friend jay dyer who says that this passage says same god not one god who's the creator tim same god

01:34:02.960 would be tim who's the creator the same god would be an indexical this so why are you being dishonest

01:34:07.800 so you you're being dishonest you said who's the creator tim literally come on man come on people

01:34:12.220 out there who is the creator because he can't answer look i understand you don't understand the

01:34:16.860 philosophy involved he's melting down and coping because he can't answer who the creator is

01:34:20.680 you made up that it said call me a heretic 20 minutes ago and i agree with muslims worship the

01:34:25.100 same god as us would be by an indexical i'm a unitarian means that it says if we use the word

01:34:30.760 same it would you want the attributes it would be heresy and that's why i said it wasn't natural

01:34:35.140 theology if it says that they worship one god then it would be correct it says they do worship one god

01:34:40.580 they worship god who is one living and subsisting in himself merciful almighty and the creator sure

01:34:47.460 they're enumerating the the muslim view i don't know why this is so shocking again you know what if he

01:34:51.940 said they worship a god they'd be enumerating the muslim view but they say god i think it's right

01:34:56.940 lumen gentium 16 says they adore the one god that's a term of worship i think they're right

01:35:01.900 the one god they adore the one god and pious the tenth said this in his personal catechism so now

01:35:06.740 you're deflecting to no and two medieval you're deflecting you could take issue with the roman

01:35:11.180 catholic position as an orthodox that's what you should do but you can't say that the church has

01:35:15.060 changed him the document is contradicting us the argument we don't care about the document doesn't

01:35:19.540 contradict catholicism it might contradict jay dyer or no no the document itself contradicts what

01:35:25.320 you said earlier does catholicism hold that islam is the same as christianity do you know what a

01:35:31.000 precept is what a logical axiom is logical axioms are pre-scriptural so literally the sense reference

01:35:37.520 dichotomy or the the concept of proportional cause these are things which are which pre so so

01:35:43.960 ordained language it's not sophistry to explain something you don't understand yeah no you didn't

01:35:49.360 know you didn't understand this you did five fallacies in a row you said same that would be

01:35:54.340 they adore see no text because that's what the argument of the text is tim they adore the one

01:36:01.100 god in lumen gentium 16 in order for in order for your argument to be correct god would have to not

01:36:05.800 be a proper noun in that sentence i believe that muslims we're gonna have to we're gonna have to

01:36:10.200 no they don't i believe that is a is a pious the tenth is he doing it is he muting everybody

01:36:15.080 i don't okay um i don't know what y'all are arguing at this point can i state i just i just hear noise

01:36:23.960 is here yelling well the moment the moment the moment anyone talks someone else everyone just

01:36:29.700 starts talking and then when i was asking a question you guys started having a different

01:36:33.420 debate at the same time that's fair that's a fair point can i say what i perceive the argument to be

01:36:40.220 is somebody who's kind of outside yeah let's just slow down let him let him say it and then we'll

01:36:43.680 what i'm hearing from jay is that that passage reads that muslims by what the passage says not

01:36:50.840 literally muslims worship the same god that we do because it says they worship god capital g proper

01:36:57.880 noun and then that is followed up with a description of the christian god yes you are saying that this

01:37:04.820 is correct because they do believe they worship the same god as us therefore it's not incorrect

01:37:11.640 i would argue if it said they worship a god you would be correct grammatically it says they worship

01:37:18.120 does a god exist outside of the one god it doesn't matter they are worshiping something you're not

01:37:22.760 talking about sense you're talking about reference oh my god there's another quote that answers so so

01:37:26.220 yeah read that next quote but please don't interrupt lumen gentium i have i have a thought on this so

01:37:30.660 there's another statement beyond nostratate 3 which is lumen gentium 16 it says the plan of salvation

01:37:36.320 includes those that acknowledge the creator first among whom are the muslims they profess the faith of

01:37:42.120 abraham and together with us catholics they adore the one true god that refutes you

01:37:48.600 that doesn't refute me i agree with that i hold together with us catholics have together with us

01:37:53.660 refute your entire argument the last 20 minutes not hold on how does it not together with us catholics

01:37:58.160 i'll respond afterwards okay together with us who who are they referring to muslim muslims and catholics

01:38:03.760 okay muslims and christians catholics so the catholic document together with us this is this together

01:38:09.040 with us catholics what are you talking about okay so i'm gonna i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna say this

01:38:15.180 right now guys to uh orthodox and anglican catholic everything you're saying is convincing me more and

01:38:21.380 more of the catholic argument how because the position that this is taking imagine it like this

01:38:28.360 there's a rock concert an arena stadium and catholics are all let's let's just say from from the

01:38:35.020 from the argument presented in this book catholics are all looking directly at the stage and muslims

01:38:40.180 are in the back behind it hearing a different bassy garbled version of it they're cheering for

01:38:46.040 freddie mercury but they're hearing some weird version of the song exactly when i hear that is what

01:38:51.760 it's saying is that they're that all of these different religions are looking at they're doing

01:38:57.080 things the wrong way towards the right god and it's and it's because there is only one god this is

01:39:03.300 precisely the catholic interpretation since vatican ii now i i admitted at the very outset

01:39:07.960 that it's written by liberals so it squints towards more uh conciliation which is bad but we have to

01:39:14.660 say that lumen gentium well yeah but after i'm done lumen gentium and the other two uh sacred

01:39:20.260 constitutions at vatican ii okay okay but don't just but you're using it i'd be all for i'd be all for

01:39:27.600 by the way muting while other guys are talking because that that's a really effective way of going it's

01:39:31.820 still just yelling though you know what i mean but yeah but i i could sit here and be quiet i'm

01:39:35.540 just saying it's the catholic you know trump trump shouldn't have been muted either yeah agreed no as

01:39:42.560 the as the catholic um that there has to be a distinction between uh monotheism and polytheism

01:39:47.740 on the basis of natural religion everyone know everyone out there who's listening to this knows okay

01:39:53.820 there are three abrahamic religions which was posited by lumen gentium there's judaism islam

01:39:59.340 christianity that this is you know community college intro to religions 101 there are polytheisms

01:40:06.060 there are only three monotheisms in the history of the world now there's only one correct monotheism

01:40:11.080 which is posits a triune god they say that they get this wrong this is repeated throughout the sacred

01:40:17.900 constitutions of atican ii that that jews and muslims even though they're monotheists they get

01:40:23.320 it wrong they don't worship a triune god this is said countless times in the documents but that's

01:40:29.780 why we don't have the index they believe or they falsely think that that language is reserved in the

01:40:36.940 vatican ii documents for the polytheism so all they're doing there and it's written by jesuit

01:40:41.920 liberals we're squinting toward squinting toward a bad interpretation they say correctly they worship the

01:40:48.940 one true god uh pius the tent says this in his personal catechism he's a trad favorite two other

01:40:54.340 medieval popes say the exact same thing whether jay dyer or lore lodge likes it uh this is the catholic

01:41:00.680 this is the catholic view well but he's branding it's okay fair enough i'm trying to help you brand

01:41:04.940 but with regard this is the last statement with regard to the polytheists that's why they always say

01:41:11.180 they falsely claim that they falsely believe that they falsely search for they seek for

01:41:15.620 okay so the distinction is monotheistic polytheists this is correct and i everything tim said there we

01:41:20.700 would agree with except that from the orthodox perspective we reject the whole idea that there

01:41:25.420 are abrahamic monotheistic faiths so even though muslims might see themselves as that when we look at

01:41:31.600 the old testament revelation we believe that it is the trinity explicitly revealing itself in the old

01:41:36.740 testament they don't know the name per se of the word trinity but it's yahweh his angel messenger and

01:41:41.580 his spirit are revealed and in john five through nine when jesus debates with the pharisees who were

01:41:46.340 the monotheists he consistently says you don't get the right god you don't get the right picture

01:41:52.120 abraham worshiped me jesus says in john 8 he says moses wrote about him meaning that abraham and moses had

01:41:58.520 faith in christ this is a key point to undo the natural theology argument that the old testament posited

01:42:05.460 a generic theism of just a one monotheistic god abraham if abraham believed in the trinity

01:42:10.240 then the whole abrahamic religion thing falls apart and jesus says that to have faith in him

01:42:15.860 makes you a child of abraham galatians 3 paul says the exact same thing so when vatican 2 acknowledges

01:42:21.880 that they have the faith of abraham together with us we believe that is a denial of jesus's teaching

01:42:28.400 in john 8 that you can be a child of abraham without faith in christ that's the argument that's fair

01:42:34.000 that's fair real quick so just as a representative my response is kind of like let's let's say we

01:42:39.220 discover uh like we can make intercontinental ballistic missiles and uh very powerful icbms

01:42:45.180 the modern american icbm is 1250 times stronger than the bombs dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki

01:42:51.740 it is also possible that there it is also true that india and pakistan have nuclear weapons that

01:42:57.280 are substantially weaker because they have not yet discovered the means and the capability by which

01:43:02.440 to build such a powerful bomb so i think it could be said that you may have discovered hidden truths

01:43:09.980 and the true path towards god and religion and muslims are effectively using a one kiloton bomb when

01:43:15.280 you got a megaton bomb that's why i think the argument would be that muslims are openly rejecting

01:43:19.820 christianity so the point is that like there are fundamentals that are absolutely essential to

01:43:24.220 have access to god or to christianity so to deny for example the trinity or the incarnation

01:43:29.380 puts us one outside of the bounds of christianity at all but but i but i i agree that like look at

01:43:36.420 it this way there's a there's a bouncer at a club and he says if you follow the rules you can come into

01:43:40.700 the club and half the people follow the rules and get let in the other half says that guy's telling

01:43:44.880 us to go bash the windows out and they get thrown out they thought that's what the guy wanted it's the

01:43:49.240 same guy but they're doing it wrong we're getting we throw them we do throw people out

01:43:52.620 right my point is when vatican when vatican ii says they worship god it's like the bouncer being

01:44:00.180 like yo i never told those people to throw bricks at the building what are they doing well the problem

01:44:03.500 is not just worship but vatican ii uses the term of adoration which in catholic theology is more

01:44:08.060 specific than just a generic idea of natural theology adoration is something that's a specific

01:44:12.500 term for like adoring the eucharist uh in catholic theology and i would also point out that when my

01:44:18.080 opening statement i mentioned the fact that the council of vn which is a medieval roman catholic

01:44:21.740 theology which was involved in the crusades that attitude uh uh today that you see here is

01:44:27.860 completely different than the attitude then in the middle ages sure where it was the abominable

01:44:31.700 sect of muhammad in the council they call crusades against the muslims to protect the holy land sure

01:44:36.880 attitudes change dogma no no that's all i'm saying how can you be the abominable sect of muhammad but

01:44:41.100 now together with us they adore the one true god that's the contradiction they could be the

01:44:46.180 abominable sect of muhammad and still worship one no they don't even though even by reference

01:44:50.840 myth us true god myth us tim jay can i can i ask are these both these are both dogmatic councils

01:44:56.620 yeah they're from vatican too okay then dogma contradicts okay that's the argument dogma

01:45:00.520 guys guys guys that's not i got simply and straightforwardly i got another it was also

01:45:05.860 untrue when you said we don't have ordination but that apparently doesn't matter today well let's

01:45:09.360 let's let's go there let's go there it goes back to augustin how many how many how many uh how many

01:45:14.740 years was the jihad how many years was the jihad augustin's goes back to peter is that how that so

01:45:21.060 the jihad goes from no no i we're we're having a separate debate again oh because i asked a question

01:45:24.800 about how many years was the jihad you mean from the rise of islam the the the literal like jihad

01:45:29.760 conquests across north africa the middle east i argue i mean moving westward it was from it was

01:45:37.420 basically 100 years 632 to 732 on the eastern side it's not quite as linear because there's the

01:45:43.200 immediate arab move into the north and then the turks convert and they come back down south

01:45:47.180 632 to 750 118 years uh was when battle of tor is 732 that's kind of the reversal and uh then there

01:45:55.560 were additional uh jihads in the 11th and 13th centuries for 200 years and so i'm looking at the

01:46:01.480 birth rate for for muslims which is 3.1 as well as the hundreds of years of militaristic conquest

01:46:08.940 under the banner of islam and like how many how many battles of the crusades were there there were

01:46:14.380 a lot like nowhere near as many as the islamic jihad uh i don't think that's true i think there

01:46:20.760 were a lot more battle it really depends on how mohammed fought in 78 battles uh 78 alone yeah there

01:46:27.360 weren't that many in the crusades as compared to the full total of islamic jihad there were not as

01:46:32.160 many battles during the crusades let's see nine nine battles in the crusades yeah uh over 200 years

01:46:38.820 i would argue against that maybe nine major battles

01:46:43.860 yeah and then how are they defining battles i don't know there were 80 to 100 uh military expeditions

01:46:53.700 in the uh first islamic jihad yeah so in terms of birth rate and uh expansion i mean islam's doing

01:47:05.980 way better i'm not saying that makes it superior so i will say islam the the ability of islam to

01:47:11.080 move after 732 was largely due to the turks coming in at a time that could not have been less ideal for

01:47:19.160 christians these two were well technically we were the same at the time uh were in conflict there was

01:47:24.900 a schism that had happened about 20 years earlier uh then you get the battle of nanzikert in 1071

01:47:29.860 and the the byzantine empire collapses in on itself because everybody wants to be emperor

01:47:35.100 uh and ironically the church wasn't strong enough to enforce one single emperor in the west the church

01:47:42.160 wasn't strong enough to convince people hey we need to go drive the turks out and had to use

01:47:46.520 jerusalem as a little bit of a carrot on a stick so the muslims came in at a time when christians

01:47:52.180 were more divided than they'd ever been uh and we were unable to resist the tide until 1095 when we

01:47:59.100 were able to assemble an army large enough to go in and fight it but at that point the franks didn't

01:48:03.380 want to stay over there the uh the saracens became too numerous too powerful it was a long period

01:48:11.160 of strife that was largely caused by christianity's inability to come together

01:48:14.200 there was a an argument a few years ago maybe like seven years ago where a lot of people

01:48:20.700 including myself made the argument that the u.s would become a muslim nation no because muslims

01:48:25.420 have a substantially higher fertility rate than basically every other group including christians

01:48:29.580 and uh that combined with mass migration you see the emergence of places like dearborn michigan

01:48:35.500 however with the recent trend towards christianity among the uh gen z and it's not just uh that

01:48:43.060 conservatives and christians had more kids we're actually seeing an ideological shift and i think

01:48:48.380 a large portion of why we're seeing young gen z be more christian is just because of their parents

01:48:52.600 but i think around half we are actually seeing an ideological conversion one of which is there was

01:48:57.960 this really interesting shift from like 2000 i'm sorry 2020 to like 23 or whatever where gen z support

01:49:04.860 for same-sex marriage collapsed like literally the same people polled at like 20 years old then at 24

01:49:10.580 had an inverse opinion on gay marriage so that if combined with a reversal of the fertility rate

01:49:18.380 decline which may happen we are seeing a lot of people start to have kids again then i think the

01:49:23.700 u.s is on track to become a conservative christian nation probably in fact uh one of the global elite

01:49:28.180 books that i lectured through was uh jacques at the least book brief history of the future in 2006

01:49:32.600 he warned that for the technocratic elite one of the things they had to be concerned with was the

01:49:37.760 possibility of a rising traditional christian ethos in the west and in the u.s so they actually

01:49:43.460 war game that out and a few years ago the saudis were noted for i think putting 60 something billion

01:49:50.400 into funding mosques in the u.s and islamic education centers so i think they were really

01:49:55.500 pushing for that but islam has been has had a rough go on the internet especially the last couple

01:49:59.820 years they're losing bad and then a lot of younger people are turning towards christianity so i have

01:50:04.340 a question for you guys just for all christians um i believe is it is it one of the core tenets to

01:50:09.200 go and spread the religion yeah do you guys view yourselves as as as doing that i i would say yes

01:50:16.420 100 in this in this current present moment right now i think just general i think i'll talk about

01:50:20.980 your religion on large platforms to large groups of people yeah certainly and and evangelization

01:50:26.080 sounds different than the internecine um squabbling between catholics and orthodox certainly yeah i

01:50:32.760 think i think i'm sure all of us try to do that uh in a different forum fora and platforms i i mean

01:50:39.320 i certainly do also yeah i mean like i was like islam is having a hard time because they had a really

01:50:43.260 strong push in the 2010s online and a lot of people were getting into into islam but now a lot of

01:50:48.820 christians are doing pretty intense hardcore apologetics like we had that debate with uh daniel

01:50:53.800 he could chew and um he jaws uh together me and sam shimoon on fresh and fit that got millions of

01:50:59.040 views and it was like 90 percent just dominated i mean uh russell brand yeah you know uh so i in

01:51:06.000 the skateboard community the it it's it's degenerate garbage mostly these pro skateboarders have always

01:51:12.620 been scuzzy drug abusing now there's a bunch of them that are getting baptized you know uh i'm not

01:51:17.380 going to single anybody anybody out but i was surprised to find didn't skating get like that the

01:51:22.360 corporations try to take it over like make it woke and then people are reacting to that now

01:51:25.600 well so with skateboarding what happened was the industry completely collapsed because there's no

01:51:29.480 young people anymore and the stewards of the industry failed to cultivate a new generation of

01:51:34.720 skateboarders so what happens then is as of today more than half of all professional like all

01:51:39.980 skateboarders active skateboarders i don't say professional are over 30 what happens when the water

01:51:45.380 goes down it exposes the scum in the reef and so now some of the most prominent voices in the

01:51:50.560 industry are degenerate cringy rage bait and so what happens is these companies try to figure out

01:51:58.840 how to sell to whoever they can and you end up with advertisements or or there may be an inverse

01:52:04.900 correlation here that when the company started promoting you know like men pretending to be women

01:52:10.660 doing weird fetish poses and they are it's not a joke young guys say i don't have anything to do

01:52:14.820 this because scooting doesn't do that scooting doesn't and that's growing massively in popularity

01:52:19.980 all the skills are now in terms of action sports are going in that direction in bmx and this is what

01:52:25.340 happens when you know what i think it is to relate this to the conversation abject degeneracy freaks the

01:52:32.320 average person out no matter what exactly no matter who they are where they're from it is a shock to the

01:52:37.280 system it so skateboarding started promoting there's like there's one individual who's a morbidly obese

01:52:42.020 man who's trans and does fetish like weird sexualized fetish poses but it's like it's like

01:52:47.300 it's like a big fat guy and uh a lot of a lot of young men are like i don't want to have anything to

01:52:53.360 do with that i think now we are seeing a lot of young men shift towards uh christianity that's in

01:52:59.600 the polls is that may be a good explanation as to why skateboarding is struggling to uh market itself

01:53:05.460 to a younger generation because all the big magazines are basically being like you know here's

01:53:10.860 the trans and the queer stuff and it's not internal to one culture another subculture this is what's at

01:53:17.060 large in the general popular culture is a great reawakening essentially secular humanism i'm not the

01:53:24.280 first one to say it it's it's uh reasonably obvious of 10 years into it secular humanism has consumed

01:53:31.100 itself and people are looking for what's perennial and what's true and it turns out that a lot of young

01:53:38.180 kids are are finding jesus based and so when they're returning to christianity they're looking

01:53:44.860 for what they take to be a a based version of it which is why they're they're leaving protestantism

01:53:50.760 in droves and and going to uh greater greater structure more and more structure is all i'm saying

01:53:56.380 so they're going to orthodox or 2024 was roman catholicism's uh i think greatest year of uh re-embrace

01:54:03.560 of the church popular how many people leave in the last catholicism for every person who joins it

01:54:07.080 you tell me i believe it's something i'm not going to tell you that something like six to eight

01:54:12.060 yeah well everyone last year was the best year in the new evangelization which is what what john paul

01:54:19.740 ii um set out to do using media using the um self-immolation well i googled it and it i i'm sorry i

01:54:30.640 chet gpt did and it says that uh protestants are converting to catholicism and eastern orthodoxy

01:54:35.620 we are uh it should be clear that you you disputed that no i did not dispute that i think you did i

01:54:41.920 did not see 155 per parish in from 22 to 23 i said leaving that's not a good metric there's no real

01:54:50.480 good metric they say uh 78 surge in orthodox conversions but again we don't have the actual

01:54:54.740 hard numbers uh orthodoxy is seeing 155 converts converts from per church of which 65 are from

01:55:03.120 protestant backgrounds yeah i i think protestantism has a major issue right now with uh first of all

01:55:09.200 with how divided we are i don't think that's a good thing i think that uh the episcopal church many

01:55:13.820 of the presbyterian churches have totally lost their way oh yeah and that i mean that's why the

01:55:18.840 catholic church exists i i think protestants need to really look in the mirror and ask ourselves what the

01:55:24.380 hell we're doing let me let me say this when i when i was looking up different denominations

01:55:28.300 chet gpt or volunteered unto me that the episcopal church was was shrinking it's bad like when i when

01:55:35.460 i said like list list the churches by a fertility rate it was like you know the episcopal is shrinking

01:55:40.940 all the woke churches are basically adopting sterility so they sterilize themselves with their policies and

01:55:46.740 then they don't have future generations and they die out yeah the conservative the conservative

01:55:50.500 protestant churches aren't as good at marketing we are not nearly as good at telling people we exist

01:55:56.240 the roman and catholic and the orthodox churches are both very visible i think that's why you see so

01:56:00.460 many protestants converting right now i think if more protestants were aware of churches like the

01:56:04.720 anglican catholics there would be higher numbers of people converting to the conservative protestant

01:56:09.700 churches as well but we suffer from that problem of being at schism with ourselves in so many cases

01:56:15.860 there are there are a lot of churches that fly the pride flags even catholic churches yeah they're

01:56:20.760 popping up they tend to be in liberal areas and i view that largely as the church is looking at the

01:56:27.400 the the political views of the community around them and they're probably saying to themselves

01:56:31.280 in one year this church will be a coffee shop unless we get more parishioners what do we have to do

01:56:37.440 market whatever they want to hear but the woke churches die it doesn't work yeah it doesn't

01:56:41.340 but but you know i'll say this too they die and the faith dies with them and and and many people

01:56:45.600 have said get what go broke but i do believe well that's that's largely true there's an inverse of

01:56:49.860 go broke get woke in that a lot of companies try to adopt they try to adopt wokeness as a marketing

01:56:55.280 tactic to to try and get but they don't understand hippies don't have money no it's well it's a boomer

01:57:00.100 marketing appeal that that was really i'll speak to the catholic position it was really popular

01:57:04.720 during and around vatican too and they thought that uh kids wanted uh monkeys music and and long hair

01:57:12.980 and masks and tambourines and shit and they simply didn't what they wanted was uh what's perennial

01:57:18.700 and true and that that's that's really what's let me let me say this there's this uh oft quoted study

01:57:25.040 um you have to look it up where they they told people come in it's a it's a study you're gonna

01:57:30.300 you're gonna ask answer some questions and then afterwards you get a free t-shirt people came in

01:57:34.860 in the first group answer the questions and as they were leaving they were given a free t-shirt

01:57:38.120 they were then on the way out asked how do they feel about their experience the next group came in

01:57:43.540 answer the questions were then given a choice between one of three t-shirts blue green or red

01:57:48.260 they then made a choice they were then on the way out asked how they felt the people who were given

01:57:52.700 the choice felt worse off they felt regret they picked the wrong color the people who weren't given

01:57:58.600 a choice went wow free t-shirt but when they had to choose between the colors it actually made them

01:58:03.120 feel worse and this is uh often cited as a in many instances not all choice actually stresses people

01:58:10.800 out and makes them feel anxiety they don't like it and so a lot of people not everybody a lot of

01:58:16.720 people really just want to be told what to do and i don't i and i've said this before because there's

01:58:21.780 this mentality in the united states that being a follower is a bad thing you want to be a leader

01:58:25.660 and i i reject that there's a requirement for both leaders and followers and they try to insult you

01:58:31.920 in modern media if you are just a follower of someone because you have to be the leader and i

01:58:36.220 say when the king is standing before all of his men in the fields ready to die for the world that

01:58:41.880 they believe in and the things they love those followers of the king are no less dignified simply

01:58:46.600 because they're not the king in fact without them there is no king so being a follower isn't a bad

01:58:51.900 thing yeah and i they they you know i think modern society tries to tell you not to not to do that

01:58:57.460 absolutely be rogue no it's it's perfectly fine if you want to say listen i spend my days taking

01:59:04.940 care of my family you take care of the politics i believe in you do the right thing don't screw me

01:59:10.120 over there's nothing wrong with it modernity is is enlightenment right an enlightenment effect so

01:59:17.400 the enlightenment was all about individual atomistic liberties which premised were premised on the idea

01:59:23.480 that there's no authority there's no hierarchy hence why they were opposed to church and state

01:59:27.860 monarchy monarchy and church yeah and i will say this too one of the debates we have to have in the

01:59:33.060 political uh arena around religion is that there's this romanticized fake liberal view that the founding

01:59:40.320 fathers believed in this hyper-liberal society where anyone could say whatever they wanted they had

01:59:44.460 blasphemy laws back then even when the founding father says the right to speech shall not be

01:59:48.920 infringed of course no one no one in this room thinks you can go out there and say you know and

01:59:53.580 take the lord's name in vain that would be a crime they meant you could go and have political

01:59:58.040 conversations in a pub and so when you look at the context around the uh the constitution 1789 and all

02:00:05.500 that they they weren't literally saying anyone can march the street to the tombs of thousands of

02:00:10.240 people and block roads they were saying if you have a meeting in your city peacefully to have

02:00:16.160 conversations the government can't shut you down because the crown wanted to shut them down

02:00:19.360 but these people think the founding fathers were a bunch of like liberal atheists they're like sam

02:00:23.540 harris or something like that you know eight of eight of eight for blasphemy eight of the 13 states had

02:00:28.740 establishments of christian religions and and the first amendment to the u.s constitution was written

02:00:35.000 assuming that all 13 would and on what the establishment clause means literally was that congress and

02:00:41.720 congress alone shall not make a law respecting a disestablishment of religion congress wasn't

02:00:47.480 allowed to disestablish the state legislature established sects of christianity that's literally

02:00:53.900 what it means and it was a a masonic uh u.s supreme court in 1947 in a case called everson versus

02:01:01.060 board of ed that literally reversed the meaning and um incorporated the first amendment speaking of

02:01:07.800 which like enlightenment freemasonic values how do you reconcile freemasonry with christianity

02:01:12.060 uh what about freemasonry is in conflict with christianity how about albert pike's teachings

02:01:17.000 albert pike is not recognized as influential by most masons okay his teachings are non-essential

02:01:22.800 you're telling me the morals and dogma freemason yeah morals and dogma i'll admit i've had my

02:01:26.740 questions because i have run into things you're telling me morals and dogma is not used in scottish

02:01:30.840 right no it is used in the southern jurisdiction of the scottish right in the southern so it's not

02:01:34.160 so he has a giant statue in dc but he's not influential he was influential for a number of

02:01:38.700 other reasons secularly he was a general he was a uh accomplished ethnographer okay what about manly

02:01:45.460 p hall is he also doesn't count manly p hall admitted that he wrote everything that you have

02:01:50.200 a problem with before he became a freemason what masons do count well it depends on what you're

02:01:55.640 talking about with freemasonry i mean the philosophy is the first three degrees that's it or the philosophy

02:02:00.180 what is not true there's there's 32nd 33rd degree there are in the scottish right which is appellate

02:02:05.120 to freemasonry it's like getting a merit badge yeah but i don't care about what your terms are for

02:02:08.940 these different sex when these aren't these aren't my turn they have a naturalistic bent and ethos for

02:02:13.940 example pike says that pike is irrelevant to me now he's not well he's irrelevant to you but not to the

02:02:18.440 history of freemason no pike is irrelevant to everything outside of the freemason pike is irrelevant

02:02:22.160 to the history of freemasonry generally who's the freemason here who's the one who knows what he's

02:02:26.400 talking about it's that's an appeal to authority no it's not yes it is okay i'm citing i'm trying

02:02:30.060 to you're not citing yourself albert pike is a source for freemasonry not you dude no albert pike

02:02:36.460 is a source for the southern masonry for the southern jurisdiction you're telling me that he's not

02:02:42.300 famous in the world okay just how about giuseppe mazzini does he count is he p2 no he's in the

02:02:48.400 grand orient lodge grand orient not regular so what counts uh the three degrees of the craft lodges

02:02:58.080 mainly split between england and the united states so the york right is that what the york right like

02:03:03.760 the scottish right is appellate and is not held in in union with all freemasonic ideals so and the

02:03:08.500 british empire did what what was the function of freemason in the british empire in your view

02:03:13.080 uh it was a social club is it are sorry are you a speculative mason uh all masons are speculative

02:03:19.140 masons no they're not the original masons were you know they were they were stone workers they

02:03:24.540 weren't speculative yes and yes it did originate from operative masons in the late 1300s as a catholic

02:03:31.340 organization which very explicitly held that you must love the church with god and the church that's

02:03:38.220 not speculative freemasonry all right it was it was the origin of speculative no it's not

02:03:42.760 yes the regius poem the catholic poem the regius poem the catholic church has condemned you for

02:03:48.460 centuries seven times seven different times it's for centuries why why why why tell me why i know

02:03:54.580 why do you do you know why you know why because you know why the pope in 1738 you shut up i've read

02:03:59.600 the paper you've been interrupting me while asking because your answers are stupid okay you're not

02:04:03.640 stupid you don't know what you're talking about dishonest no do you know why it was because they

02:04:07.920 that's a secret it was because you're acting as a 1738 in inhumanum inhumanum uh

02:04:13.620 janus yeah in that one what was the reason he make sure to watch tim cast iro tonight at 8 p.m

02:04:19.060 guys we're over time okay uh and if we had more time i'd say let's let's get into masonry i'm happy

02:04:23.800 to come back and do masonry let's do another one on the freemasonry even just from the historical

02:04:27.180 perspective i think i think he doesn't know what he's talking about well okay i think but you're lying

02:04:31.120 because albert pike is very influential albert pike is not influential outside of the southern

02:04:36.300 jurisdiction of the scottish right largely masonry all right uh do you want to shout anything out

02:04:40.880 before we go yes uh you can find me at my website jasonalysis.com you can find me on youtube you can

02:04:46.560 find me usually the fourth hour of alex jones every friday uh you can find me writing the sam hyde show

02:04:51.780 and uh find me on twitter yeah uh my name is aiden mattis i'm the host of the lore lodge uh history

02:04:57.820 unhinged and the weird bible podcast i do want to quickly say that the anglican church does not

02:05:02.180 necessarily agree with me about freemasonry before i get in trouble for that uh but yeah that's uh

02:05:06.840 that's where i'm i'm leaving this uh you can find me here on youtube timothy gordon on twitter i'm at

02:05:12.280 timothy ology t-i-m-o-t-h-e-e-o-l-o-g-y and i'm on youtube as well timothy gordon doing a show

02:05:21.020 called rules for retrogrades thanks for having us on right on this was fun yell at each other yeah yeah

02:05:26.260 yeah the most heated debate we've had who'd have thought we're gonna be back tonight at 8 p.m

02:05:30.720 for timcast irl don't miss it bring your friend friends tell your grandma thanks for hanging out

02:05:35.600 we'll see y'all then

02:05:36.280 if you love chilling mysteries unsolved cases and a touch of mom-style humor

02:05:56.140 moms and mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for hey guys i'm mandy and i'm melissa

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The Culture War - Tim Pool - June 13, 2025

Catholics Are The SUPERIOR Christians, DEBATE w⧸ Jay Dyer, Tim Gordon, & The Lore Lodge

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