The Culture War - Tim Pool - Christian Nationalism Revolution Is Coming To Britain ft. Charlie Downes ｜ Across The Pond

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00:01:16.400 But that's fundamentally the framework that you have to present to get us out of this mess, is you have to be willing to tell people no.

00:01:23.920 You have to be willing to tell people, hey, no, this is corrosive to your soul, therefore it's going to be outlawed.

00:01:29.620 So it's not just a failed enterprise.

00:01:31.300 Ultimately, it's because you've abandoned Christianity, you're not giving people a sense of belonging in which to have and raise children in, 0.70

00:01:38.520 they're not staying in the country, and so all those people that you're relying on to do this right-wing revival,

00:01:44.640 they don't have the principles and they don't have the personnel to do it.

00:01:47.480 Well, it's liberal democracy.

00:01:48.660 Liberal democracy undermines the integrity of the kingdom because it does not raise up leaders who embody the essence of the nation,

00:01:53.640 but instead raises up the people who rely most effectively to the public

00:01:56.640 and who are prepared to take the most money from moneyed interests so they can run for office.

00:02:01.300 What is up, guys?

00:02:02.860 This is Tate Brown here holding it down.

00:02:04.560 I'm here with Conor Tomlinson, the GOAT.

00:02:06.440 We're here for another installation of Across the Pond.

00:02:09.600 This time we've actually gone Across the Pond.

00:02:11.700 We've got an English guest.

00:02:12.980 We're switching it up.

00:02:13.640 We've been very American-heavy, so we're switching it up here.

00:02:16.520 We've brought in the great Charlie Downs.

00:02:19.120 Charlie, how's it going, man?

00:02:20.520 Very well, Tate.

00:02:21.120 How are you?

00:02:22.200 I am doing all right.

00:02:23.380 Can you give the people a quick intro of who you are, what you do?

00:02:26.060 Sure, yes.

00:02:26.680 And my name is Charlie Downs.

00:02:27.760 I am the campaign's director at Restore Britain,

00:02:29.940 which is a British pressure group led by Rupert Lowe MP,

00:02:33.900 who is a former Reform UK MP,

00:02:36.220 which is kind of our populist insurgent right-wing party,

00:02:40.300 which a lot of people are putting their faith in.

00:02:42.080 Rupert was unceremoniously booted out of the party earlier this year

00:02:46.040 for the crime of challenging the position of the leader, Nigel Farage,

00:02:51.560 and has since, well, essentially become the de facto leader of the right in Britain,

00:02:57.180 as far as I'm concerned.

00:02:58.120 He is commanding the discourse on a number of different issues.

00:03:01.620 And Restore Britain was set up essentially to institutionalize his influence.

00:03:05.900 So we're not a political party.

00:03:07.120 We are a pressure group.

00:03:08.200 But we have an enormous membership and an enormous following online.

00:03:11.980 And this week we actually launched our podcast.

00:03:14.440 So I'd recommend all listeners to go and check that out on the Restore Britain YouTube channel.

00:03:19.280 I also have a show on GB News, which is kind of like our version of Fox News.

00:03:23.900 And I write the Daily Mail on issues of English identity, kind of Zoomer politics, immigration, and so on.

00:03:32.880 So, yeah, very pleased to be here tonight with you folks.

00:03:35.500 Charlie's one of these guys that's sort of fitting the trend of enterprising, virtuous, young, informed, right-wing men.

00:03:43.600 And I tweeted out the other day in response to that Corey Lewandowski – not Corey Lewandowski, Corey – who's the Florida congressman?

00:03:51.680 Corey Mills.

00:03:52.460 Corey Mills.

00:03:53.320 Yeah, that's the one.

00:03:54.440 He's the other one.

00:03:55.820 Corey Mills, whose girlfriend is being passed around Washington.

00:03:59.520 And I tweeted that being a heterosexual, married, monogamous white man in right-wing politics is simultaneously exhausting and a superpower because you're just un-blackmailable. 0.74

00:04:13.120 And Downs also fits this mold.

00:04:15.380 So there's a growing body of Catholic Zoomer often takes a group in the UK Westminster. 0.72

00:04:23.300 We're gay-capped out of every institution, but I think that's probably what we're going to end up talking about.

00:04:26.640 So, Chud Maxey can actually benefit you politically massively.

00:04:30.100 It's very true.

00:04:31.220 It's true.

00:04:31.820 I mean, you know, anybody who has spent any time in Westminster or kind of media circles in Britain will know that they essentially do run off of blackmail.

00:04:41.340 It's a really gross sphere to work in, to be honest with you.

00:04:45.500 It's so infested by people who just have no control over their appetites in a lot of cases.

00:04:51.400 And so it's kind of no wonder that the British right is in such a bad state, given that it's people like that who in a lot of ways run the show.

00:04:59.860 And, Conor, you're so right.

00:05:00.740 I saw that tweet of yours and I thought, yeah, I agree.

00:05:05.200 There we go.

00:05:06.440 Well, Conor, what's on slate today?

00:05:08.520 We brought Charlie in for a very specific reason.

00:05:11.260 We got a plethora of stories really involving the abortion debate, which obviously the whole thing with Across the Pond is comparing and contrasting the political scene in the United States versus the United Kingdom.

00:05:22.060 What I think a lot of American listeners don't quite know or understand, maybe a lot of them don't understand, is that the abortion debate in Britain is not really as preeminent as it is stateside.

00:05:32.980 So I don't know.

00:05:33.280 Maybe you could give a quick sort of rundown of where the abortion debate is at on your side of the pond.

00:05:39.080 So we haven't had it be a central political issue since the 60s when abortion was implemented.

00:05:46.380 It has only resurfaced recently because during the COVID lockdowns, the Conservative government made the decision to provide abortifacient pills through the post without any medical consultations.

00:06:00.120 Two women after a phone call and one high-profile case involved a woman who was significantly far along in her pregnancy, I think it was about eight months, and she called up claiming she was much earlier, took the pills and killed her own child at home.

00:06:15.200 And the response to this by the current feminist government, the Labour government in Britain, is to forward two private members' bills that decriminalised abortion up till birth. 0.88

00:06:25.040 One kept the provision of non-sex selective abortions, so they banned it outright.

00:06:31.860 The other one wanted to remove all restrictions entirely, and the one that got voted through on a Thursday afternoon when barely any MPs even knew about it, and it barely even had time for a debate, was the one to do with keeping sex selective abortion bans in place.

00:06:46.840 But pretty much every other abortion has been decriminalised now in the UK, and this is why I think the issue is going to take centre stage,

00:06:52.520 because alongside the Canada-made-style euthanasia bill that's being forced through Parliament in a very similar fashion,

00:06:59.740 we have instrumentalised human worth in the UK, and you're starting to see some really creepy stuff around London.

00:07:06.580 Like, we're already a Blade Runner, Running Man-style dystopia, but there were adverts for euthanasia up in Westminster Tube Station for a very long time,

00:07:16.520 sponsored by Global, which is the largest advertising conglomerate which runs podcasts like the News Agents or LBC,

00:07:24.160 one of the big, like, shit-lib radio broadcasters in the UK.

00:07:27.240 Today, my wife took a photo and sent it to me, like, tweeted out, and we can flash up on screen and post,

00:07:32.540 and there is this advert for egg harvesting in one of the major train stations in London,

00:07:39.120 and it's got, typically, you know, majority white women on the board, and it's pasturing that egg harvesting is somehow some great use, 1.00

00:07:47.720 some liberating, empowering use of one's autonomous choice.

00:07:51.940 And it has become really insidious with the abortion debate, with the euthanasia debate,

00:07:57.140 where, basically, the human worth has been reduced down to whatever saves the state money,

00:08:04.200 and whatever maximizes the time at which you can either return to your desks to continue filling out spreadsheets

00:08:10.540 for a corporation that wants to replace you with your cheaper foreign counterparts,

00:08:15.300 or that you can basically sell off parts of your fertility in order to pay the rent. 0.99

00:08:21.560 And the reason I wanted to segue into this is because it opens up a whole Pandora's box with

00:08:25.340 the fertility rate information that's been revealed this week, the abortion rate that's been revealed this week that shocked people,

00:08:30.280 and, uh, in the inverse, the hit pieces on young Christians in Westminster, like myself and Downs by name,

00:08:36.980 that says, well, why would there possibly need to be Christianity in UK politics? 0.91

00:08:41.600 Haven't we talked past this whole silly religion stuff? 1.00

00:08:44.040 Pay no attention to the fact that Westminster is now a death cult. 0.99

00:08:47.620 Yeah.

00:08:48.340 Yeah, I mean, maybe you could drill down a little more on why, specifically,

00:08:52.680 the, I guess, British right abandoned the abortion issue so quickly after it, you know, became law,

00:08:58.520 because in the United States, it's been re-litigated over and over again to the point where now

00:09:02.140 the pro-life crowd got some major victories, obviously Roe v. Wade being overturned.

00:09:07.080 And, I mean, I would presume this was, this would be due to the fact that America is still a very religious country

00:09:12.780 relative to the rest of the developed world.

00:09:15.880 Obviously, the emphasis of Christianity in our government was there in varying degrees,

00:09:20.060 but when Republicans were in office, obviously, they would sort of have to play ball with the evangelical base,

00:09:24.780 saying the evangelical base was demanding restrictions on abortion, and that obviously came to fruition.

00:09:30.740 Is that kind of what's why that you don't see this sort of pro-life insistence on the right in Britain

00:09:37.560 is like a lack of Christianity, lack of religiosity?

00:09:41.100 I would say so.

00:09:41.780 I'll throw it to Downs in a moment, because he'll doubtless have thoughts on this,

00:09:45.220 but a little while ago, the Anglican Church, and we're both Catholics, so, you know, oh, well.

00:09:49.620 The Anglican Church used to be known as the Tory party at prayer,

00:09:53.760 and I think it's no coincidence that as the Conservative Party has morphed into the accelerationist vehicle 0.71

00:10:00.960 for gay race communism, whereas Tony Blair was, you know, he was a constitutional vandal,

00:10:06.640 and he intended to increase mass migration to, quote, 0.75

00:10:09.620 rub the right's nose in diversity, but he was a bit more subtle about it,

00:10:13.120 rather than, you know, the Boris wave and flying trans pride flags from government buildings.

00:10:16.680 But as soon as the Conservative Party liberalised itself,

00:10:20.480 and it was pressuring the Anglican Church to adopt gay marriage,

00:10:24.800 it was one of the proudest achievements of David Cameron and Michael Gove's government in the 2010s,

00:10:30.520 as soon as that happened, the Church became just another beam in the cathedral,

00:10:36.480 you know, Yavin's idea of the cathedral, where it's just the amplifier of the progressive hegemony.

00:10:42.480 And so I think that the reason that our institutional church,

00:10:46.900 which is basically wedded to the monarchy, wedded to government at this point,

00:10:50.100 became just another megaphone for the current thing,

00:10:53.640 and that's why I think, one, Anglicanism is in complete freefall,

00:10:57.740 that's why Catholics are now outnumbering Anglicans two to one among Zoomers,

00:11:02.060 but I think that the lack of an organised Christian pushback

00:11:05.680 and the connection between politics and the Church means that there hasn't been a large Christian pro-life movement

00:11:12.580 like there has been in the States.

00:11:13.920 I don't know what Downs thinks.

00:11:15.780 Yeah, well, what I'm increasingly realising is, for one thing,

00:11:19.200 the sort of left-right dichotomy means less and less with every passing day, in my view,

00:11:23.880 because, I don't know, in my view, the only real binary or distinction that matters in politics now

00:11:30.480 is just, like, true or false, and that's, like, capital T, capital F.

00:11:34.400 This is not just some, you know, these are fundamental questions of truth,

00:11:38.080 and I think there's as much nonsense on the right as there is on the left,

00:11:41.400 because what I've realised is those people who pass,

00:11:43.060 a lot of those people who pass themselves off as being right-wing are basically liberal at bottom,

00:11:48.780 and what I mean by liberal is something very specific.

00:11:50.920 What I mean by that is somebody who has the self or the individual as their moral centre of gravity,

00:11:57.420 because I think there's, you know, there's a lot of discourse about why the right has basically conceded

00:12:04.480 every debate to the left when it comes to matters of culture over the last 50 or so years,

00:12:09.320 and my answer to that is that both the left and the right have had the individual or the self

00:12:15.180 as their moral centre of gravity, and the left have just been the ones to take that to its logical conclusion.

00:12:20.720 They have been the ones to embrace abortion. 0.77

00:12:23.320 They have been the ones to push kind of, you know, woke sort of, you know, trans, LGBT stuff,

00:12:29.160 you know, in limitless self-expression, and the right's answer to that,

00:12:33.120 the right's version of a kind of self-centred culture is just to kind of endlessly bleat on about GDP

00:12:40.060 and encourage people to pursue a kind of corporate career

00:12:44.420 and sell them the idea that that's where they're going to find meaning and belonging.

00:12:48.300 And actually, on balance, I would say that to, certainly for young people, the left's offering,

00:12:53.840 when that is the kind of dichotomy, the left's offering is far more palatable, far more appealing.

00:12:59.960 And so there hasn't really been a right as such in this country in any kind of organised mainstream form

00:13:07.200 for a very long time.

00:13:08.720 And that, I think, is why these cultural issues, issues that are kind of dismissed as being

00:13:15.520 not as important as the economy and not as important as growth and that sort of thing,

00:13:19.880 haven't really had a look in for a long time.

00:13:21.460 And actually, when you do raise them, even those people who do pass themselves off

00:13:25.840 as being on the right are not interested in touching them,

00:13:29.260 because they are actually not, you know, they are individualists at the end of the world.

00:13:34.560 And this, I think, is the crucial thing, because there is this emerging faction of the right

00:13:38.900 in Britain who, well, there's an article in Pimlico Journal, which is one of the outlets

00:13:44.600 that has taken aim by name at myself and Connor.

00:13:49.380 There's an article in there called Why I Am a Zionist.

00:13:52.820 Now, this is a play on Zionists, obviously, but it's about Zia Youssef, who is the chairman

00:13:56.680 of, no, why is he now?

00:13:57.960 He's the head of policy at Reform UK, this Muslim fella who nobody seems to know anything about. 1.00

00:14:03.600 And he represents what Pimlico Journal would describe as a kind of technocratic populism,

00:14:09.080 right?

00:14:09.260 So this is a desire to, it's almost like a Lee Kuan Yew sort of just looking at the metrics

00:14:13.700 and seeking to, you know, increase the metrics as much as possible in a way that's far preferable

00:14:18.960 to the kind of regime that we have now that just seeks to, you know, grow the GDP, whatever

00:14:23.980 that even means.

00:14:25.220 I think they are, this kind of faction is looking at more meaningful metrics.

00:14:29.540 But actually, at the end of the day, they're not prepared to confront matters that can't

00:14:35.640 really be spoken about in the quantitative language of kind of managerialism and science.

00:14:41.740 But it's actually those issues that are, in a lot of ways, the most pressing of our time

00:14:45.440 in, you know, things like national identity and belonging, a feeling of meaning, a feeling

00:14:49.600 of purpose, things like abortion, life issues, euthanasia, and so on.

00:14:54.000 And so, you know, there is, there seems to be a very limited appetite for these kinds

00:14:59.280 of things in Britain.

00:15:00.240 But I think that's only because there hasn't been a force, an organized force in the mainstream

00:15:04.820 that has actually been putting the argument across in a compelling way for a very long

00:15:08.140 time.

00:15:08.420 Because for right now, you know, Christianity in Britain, on the political scene, is kind

00:15:14.100 of dominated by people like, you know, UKIP and sort of Nick Tenkoni.

00:15:19.300 And it seems very much like an American import.

00:15:21.340 It seems very sort of, it just bounces off most English people.

00:15:24.480 And so I think it is, you know, certainly the mission of Restore Britain, to a certain

00:15:28.040 extent, and the mission of those of us of like mind in the kind of political scene, to,

00:15:33.640 in a way, like give Christianity a bit of a rebrand in Britain, and make it palatable

00:15:38.460 for the British people.

00:15:40.280 Because I don't think it has been for a long time.

00:15:41.500 It's like you say, Connor, the Anglican Church, the Church of England, is just an arm of the

00:15:45.500 state.

00:15:45.900 It's just a mouthpiece of power that, in my view, has been completely hollowed out of any

00:15:51.320 real meaning or spiritual content, if indeed it was there at any time.

00:15:56.560 Yeah, I mean, the Anglican Church in the UK, because we have here, we have like our mainline

00:16:01.020 churches, which sort of the elite of our country up until about 50 years ago, the composition,

00:16:06.640 they were primarily, they were attending these mainline churches.

00:16:09.300 And I guess that would be sort of the equivalent analog stateside to the Anglican Church.

00:16:12.560 Obviously, the Anglican Church in the UK is an institution that is like wed to the government.

00:16:16.960 But either way, the thing that the Anglican Church and these mainline churches in the

00:16:22.060 United States have in common is that they're both functionally boomer NGOs.

00:16:26.340 Like there's any spirituality that was left in these churches is gone.

00:16:29.880 It just died.

00:16:31.760 Yeah, like I said, they're fundamentally boomer NGOs. 0.53

00:16:34.000 And the point you're making, and it's so true, is again, the kind of stateside, we've

00:16:37.340 had this problem on the right where the most charitable interpretation of this would be they're

00:16:42.980 just trying to win votes, but they step into the left's framework and then try to beat them

00:16:46.600 at their own game.

00:16:48.040 And this just never works.

00:16:49.020 You're just, you're never actually going to beat the left when you're playing on their

00:16:52.480 terms, because they can just like give away free stuff and whatnot.

00:16:57.940 You're not fighting with, you're not fighting on the same battlefield.

00:17:00.960 You're not fighting on the same footing.

00:17:02.380 The UK seems to have this problem on steroids.

00:17:05.360 We're like, at least in the United States, the right, even though they were trying to like

00:17:08.800 operate in the left's framework and beat them.

00:17:10.780 Every once in a while, they throw a bone to the conservatives.

00:17:14.020 That just has not been occurring in the UK whatsoever.

00:17:17.140 The conservative party, like here, the joke is, oh, the Republican Party is there to slow

00:17:20.780 down the Democrats.

00:17:22.720 In the UK, it seems like the conservatives were just junior partners in this sort of

00:17:26.540 No, they were there to speed it up, man.

00:17:28.760 Like, labor, Tony Blair's labor party had immigration running at like 200,000 a year.

00:17:33.560 The conservatives put it to 1.2 million a year.

00:17:35.900 Bear in mind, America has legal migration for all 50 states at a million a year.

00:17:41.020 And we're the size of New York State.

00:17:42.880 Regarding, so the Pimlico guys, so I want to be as charitable as possible because they

00:17:47.440 do nip at our heels a lot.

00:17:49.660 But I think they have published some good work with social housing stats.

00:17:52.720 So, you know, we love our annons.

00:17:54.680 They're some very seeming good people.

00:17:55.880 But the bit that you're referencing, Charlie, I'll quote from.

00:17:59.340 He says,

00:17:59.720 Whilst a tiny fraction of the British population, these people are particularly prominent online.

00:18:03.820 I personally estimate they make up 13% of British right-wing ex-users, but are responsible

00:18:08.080 for 50% of the coal posted on the site.

00:18:10.420 With personalities such as Connor Thompson and Charlie Downs, hello, advocating for the

00:18:14.660 re-centering of the right around political Christianity.

00:18:17.380 And when you say that they're liberals, what I think they are is they're advocating for

00:18:21.020 what they believe to be a eugenic kind of liberalism.

00:18:24.060 A kind of like ruthless Darwinian, we can just do things, twiddle the dials on economics 1.00

00:18:28.680 and if people fall through the cracks, fuck them. 0.99

00:18:30.740 Versus the disgenic liberalism that is practiced by, I mean, Zach Polanski being the prime ambassador 1.00

00:18:36.780 with his crooked teeth and frankly untrustworthiness, being a tit hypnotist and homosexual in coalition 1.00

00:18:42.240 with a bunch of Jews-spurging Muslims. 1.00

00:18:44.420 Just a coalition of like total carnival freaks that should not be allowed anywhere near power. 0.99

00:18:48.920 With that one, I agree with them.

00:18:50.320 But the problem that I think they have, and this is why they don't take Christianity seriously,

00:18:54.980 we can get onto the abortion stuff in a moment because there's like proper horrors happening 0.99

00:18:58.020 here that they don't seem to have a moral opposition to because it's just an expression

00:19:04.240 of liberal free choice and anytime we speak out about it, we're accused of being illiberal.

00:19:08.000 It's like, yes, we are.

00:19:09.460 But the problem they have is they don't realize that all of their liberalism rests on a set

00:19:13.640 of suppositions and givens that they can't guarantee.

00:19:16.120 Like, if you want to be a eugenic liberal, if you want to pursue science and material progress

00:19:23.240 and you want to make it to the moon and create an Anglo-futurist colony with a thatched roof

00:19:27.540 space station, hey, how about it, man?

00:19:29.360 Like, the Faustianism is a part of the Anglo spirit as much as it is being a hobbit and 0.95

00:19:33.100 being rooted and having your little patch of land, which is how I feel.

00:19:36.320 The problem is, as you've said, who's truth?

00:19:38.920 Like, capital T truth, because the scientific revolution did not take root in Western Christendom

00:19:45.540 by accident, right?

00:19:46.780 It took place in the universities, which were scholastic enterprises by originally Catholic

00:19:51.700 scholars because they believed there was a universal truth.

00:19:54.520 They believed that you could understand God's creation via the logos.

00:19:57.980 And so you need to value truth in and of itself, objectively, with a sort of, you need to believe

00:20:03.740 there's a kind of moral maths written into the universe by a divine legislator.

00:20:07.740 However, so that science doesn't just become an instrument of ideology, because if you decouple

00:20:11.940 it from Christianity, if you decouple it from eternal moral principles, then you just get

00:20:16.160 the retarded dysgenic technocracy where you start playing, like, meet-lego-mits-and-match 0.95

00:20:22.100 to accommodate some crazy trans person's delusion about themselves, and even though you might 0.96

00:20:27.680 be momentarily frustrated by their incoherence and their logic, you don't actually have an

00:20:32.020 ethic that prevents them from indulging in that delusion and using science to meet their

00:20:35.960 own strange dysgenic ends.

00:20:37.840 So they need to understand that they act on a bunch of, a bit like Tom Holland's argument

00:20:42.880 that wokeness is like a Christian abortion. 0.99

00:20:45.420 Basically, they need to understand that they rest on a set of Christian suppositions, and

00:20:48.880 if they can't guarantee the Christian suppositions, then their right-wing liberal project won't

00:20:52.440 work.

00:20:53.160 Yeah, if I could just add to that as well, Connor.

00:20:55.400 I don't know if either of you saw Tucker Carlson's interview with Sam Altman, the CEO of Open

00:21:00.880 AI, it was very interesting, because a lot of Tucker's questions centered around, well,

00:21:05.840 what is the moral framework that is being sort of implemented into ChatGPT?

00:21:11.400 And Altman did not have a very good answer for this.

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00:22:04.600 Kind of, he floundered, he undernard, and he basically settled on, it's kind of just the

00:22:09.280 moral flamework that was kind of, that I received through osmosis, you know, in the

00:22:13.980 environment that I grew up in.

00:22:15.240 Which is a terrible answer, because if you're creating a tool that is incredibly powerful

00:22:19.860 and which, like, I use it, I think everybody uses it at this point.

00:22:23.700 You know, maybe I just speak to myself, I don't know.

00:22:25.820 But it's incredibly powerful and it's being used in many, many different sectors now for

00:22:30.400 important work, including, by the way, the writing of MPs' speeches in Parliament in

00:22:35.420 Britain, which is pretty fine.

00:22:38.140 But you need to have a good answer to that question.

00:22:40.380 You need to have a good answer to the question of what actually is the moral system that's

00:22:43.860 being implemented into this, you know, this kind of, you know, so-called artificial intelligence.

00:22:49.860 And a similar thing is happening, I think, with this faction of the British right, which

00:22:54.260 is if you actually ask them and try and pin them down on what their moral framework actually

00:22:58.940 is and what their moral paradigm that they're trying to bring into existence actually is,

00:23:03.120 there is not a clear answer, in my view.

00:23:05.940 It basically, and maybe this is me strawmanning, I don't know, but I can't see anything other

00:23:09.960 than, well, I like England, I like Britain, it's nice here, my family is from here, and

00:23:15.720 I would like to see it preserved.

00:23:17.400 And that's, you know, that's a fairly good answer.

00:23:19.160 But then you have to ask the question of why.

00:23:20.500 You have to ask, well, why is it worth preserving?

00:23:22.580 Why was it good?

00:23:24.260 Why is it no longer good?

00:23:25.580 And what is it that you're kind of striving towards in your political struggle?

00:23:31.620 Because I think, you know, a political or moral system that has merely the nation as

00:23:38.500 its moral center of gravity is, in my view, incredibly, is dubious, morally dubious, because

00:23:45.300 I think at one level, it's better than a moral system that explicitly has just the self as

00:23:51.660 the moral center of gravity that permits just limitless kind of hedonism and pursuit of

00:23:56.300 self-interest and that sort of thing, which I think is very much the culture we have in

00:23:59.020 Britain now. 0.60

00:24:00.180 But a moral system that has the nation as its moral center of gravity and seeks to bring

00:24:05.180 everything else into service of the nation, I think is very risky, actually, because you're

00:24:10.180 not acknowledging the fact that the nation is only good when it serves truth, when it serves

00:24:15.260 the good, and ultimately when it serves the will of God.

00:24:17.720 And again, when you start using religious language, people start getting very uncomfortable and

00:24:22.040 weird and all the rest of it.

00:24:23.500 But unless we're prepared to have these conversations, I don't think we're going to win, right?

00:24:28.000 Because the enemies of our civilization in Britain themselves have a totalizing view of the world,

00:24:35.000 whether that's Islam, whether that's kind of atheistic, nihilistic leftism, you know, woke 0.55

00:24:39.500 or whatever.

00:24:40.220 These are ideologies that have answers to every single question.

00:24:43.260 And I'm not necessarily saying that we need to add answers to every single question, but

00:24:47.100 we at least need to do better than, you know, striving for basically fineism, which is a

00:24:52.020 good meme, but it's actually not, in my view, going to get us out of the kind of moral malaise

00:24:57.300 that we find ourselves in.

00:24:58.600 And more to the point, a moral system that does have the nation as its moral center of

00:25:03.660 gravity, not to sound like a kind of boomer, but actually that is going to permit pretty

00:25:08.440 terrible things if you take it to its logical conclusion.

00:25:10.760 Because if something is regarded as being a threat to the nation, then kind of anything

00:25:15.820 is permitted in eliminating that threat, up to and including the indiscriminate murder

00:25:20.460 of civilians.

00:25:21.400 And I think in a lot of ways, not to, you know, really sort of get into it, but this

00:25:25.400 is what we're seeing right now in real time in Israel, as far as I'm concerned.

00:25:28.480 That, you know, Zionism is a nationalist philosophy that has the nation or the race or whatever

00:25:33.000 as its moral center of gravity.

00:25:35.060 Therefore, anything that is perceived as being a threat to that, well, anything is permissible,

00:25:39.560 up to and including the murder of children, which in my view is happening.

00:25:43.240 And I don't want that to ever happen in Britain.

00:25:45.040 I don't want us to ever have a government that thinks that sort of thing is okay.

00:25:48.300 Because we hear a lot about how Britain is being destroyed and how Britain is collapsing

00:25:51.720 right now.

00:25:52.520 But if we were to ever engage in that kind of thing as a people, then the soul of this

00:25:57.500 country would be irreversibly blackened, in my view.

00:26:00.600 Well, if there seems to be this, there's an aversion, there's like a skittishness among

00:26:06.740 conservatives stateside and in Britain.

00:26:09.980 They're so afraid to directly link right-wing thought to Christianity.

00:26:14.900 I don't know why.

00:26:15.960 I don't know why there's this aversion.

00:26:17.640 I think it's perhaps people are insecure and they don't want to be perceived as like

00:26:20.220 religious theocrats or something like that.

00:26:21.960 But that link is so real.

00:26:23.620 It's so intrinsic to right-wing thought because it's inherently hierarchical.

00:26:27.360 And that's something that people refuse to admit, because I think partially it's because

00:26:30.300 we grow up in this system of this blank slate theory of this individualism.

00:26:34.200 And that kind of, that's, that's a lot to let go because it feels wrong.

00:26:37.100 It feels wrong to tell someone they can't do something, but that's fundamentally the

00:26:41.060 framework that you have to present to get us out of this mess is you have to be willing

00:26:44.200 to tell people, no, you have to be willing to tell people, Hey, no, this is corrosive to

00:26:48.360 your soul.

00:26:49.240 Therefore it's going to be outlawed.

00:26:50.880 That feels wrong to people that grow up in this liberal system.

00:26:54.000 Um, and perhaps we're seeing these cracks now among Gen Z, uh, because we've grown 0.85

00:26:58.640 up in the system failing where I think we're the first generation that's grown up in a

00:27:02.280 fully failed system.

00:27:03.400 We don't know what the system looked like when it was at least like seemingly functioning

00:27:06.660 to some degree.

00:27:08.160 Therefore we're kind of looking around and shopping other ideologies.

00:27:12.060 Um, yeah.

00:27:12.720 So I think, I think the right, uh, in Britain and in America needs to be comfortable linking

00:27:18.940 that the very real true link that there is between Christianity and right-wing thought.

00:27:23.600 Cause if you're not presenting a framework, if you're not offering a framework to the

00:27:27.200 public, you're not, there's nothing for them to buy into.

00:27:30.260 There's nothing for them to be grounded in instead, when you're just taking kind of a

00:27:34.860 liberal framework and then touching it up a little bit and maybe, you know, banning

00:27:38.600 some few like woke things that bother people, that's not enough.

00:27:42.520 That's not going to last.

00:27:43.500 It's, it's not something that's going to, you know, preserve people that that's, that's

00:27:47.060 part of the reason zoomers are so attracted to in particular Catholicism, because it provides 1.00

00:27:52.540 something that's lasting or provide something that has a groundedness or rootedness, a link

00:27:56.640 to the past and a pathway to the future.

00:28:00.000 Um, so yeah, I, that's, that's what I would say is I just think, yeah, right-wingers like

00:28:04.880 stand on business.

00:28:05.740 Like it's inherently Christian. 0.95

00:28:07.640 It's inherently godly.

00:28:08.820 It's God honoring and left-wing thought is inherently humanist.

00:28:11.760 It's inherently, in my opinion, satanic, our guest, uh, that we just finished wrap, finished

00:28:16.760 wrapped.

00:28:17.400 We just wrapped filming with John Doyle.

00:28:19.680 Great video where he links, uh, leftism to Satan, Satanism.

00:28:22.900 I mean, there's some very disturbing links that are just true and it sounds kitschy.

00:28:26.880 It sounds like something you'd read in a pamphlet that's given to you by a schizophrenic 0.94

00:28:29.820 person, but it's real.

00:28:31.120 It's real.

00:28:31.560 It's actually tangible.

00:28:32.660 Um, they want to liberate you from every identity that was given to you by God and instead

00:28:36.600 just turn you into the perfect consumer.

00:28:38.540 And it's, I don't know how else you would describe that besides satanic voice.

00:28:42.700 I don't know what you think.

00:28:43.560 Yeah.

00:28:43.800 Just something that very quickly, I think an idea that we need to be embracing, uh, on

00:28:48.520 the right, which is something I've been thinking about a lot recently is the concept of the

00:28:52.380 withdrawal of license, right?

00:28:54.280 This, this distinction between license and liberty, I think is crucial for us because

00:28:58.540 there is an idea that just, well, I mean the whole liberal kind of, um, the, the central

00:29:04.620 principle of liberalism is that self-expression is everywhere and always a good thing.

00:29:08.540 Um, but we need to be, you know, absolutely rejecting that at every turn and actually,

00:29:13.060 uh, sinful behavior.

00:29:14.780 If you want to use the Christian language has no, has no rights and should not have any 1.00

00:29:18.720 rights.

00:29:19.280 Um, and, and therefore the withdrawal of license by which I mean the outlawing of abortion,

00:29:23.620 the outlawing of gay marriage, um, all of these things, which are fundamentally in conflict

00:29:28.440 with the natural order, the eternal order, the eternal metaphysical principles that govern

00:29:32.780 human civilizations should not be permitted. 0.56

00:29:34.800 Uh, and, and this is the thing is, uh, the right right now in Britain is not prepared

00:29:39.660 to have these conversations.

00:29:40.960 The, the sort of, um, highest, the, the, the, the radical consciousness of the right

00:29:45.360 in Britain in the mainstream right now basically extends to, you know, ending mass immigration

00:29:50.260 and deregulating a bit.

00:29:52.820 And that's, and again, that's not a compelling like grand meta narrative to drive a political

00:29:57.680 movement.

00:29:58.620 I think, and I think we do need to be thinking bigger in, uh, I was going to add on that the

00:30:04.380 original liberal was the serpent in the garden of Eden because the promise of self-actualization

00:30:09.020 is basically the, the devil's mantra of do as thou wilt or, um, unshackling yourselves

00:30:13.760 from the biological limits imposed upon you by Imago Dei and the duties of the universal

00:30:18.600 moral law to pursue your own hedonistic pursuits.

00:30:21.900 And this is why the original left and right dichotomy was between the hierarchy of the monarchy

00:30:26.760 and tradition, but also the church.

00:30:28.320 And so left and right might well be antiquated in the, in the current, uh, uh, sort of boomer

00:30:34.900 conception of politics in our country, Charlie, because, you know, uh, the, the right is just,

00:30:39.540 uh, another, the right is just a means by which the market can level everything down to lowest

00:30:46.600 common denominator, universalist, blank slate, fungible consumer, but actual right-wing politics

00:30:52.280 insofar as it should exist should be hierarchical and based on tradition.

00:30:57.020 Whereas leftism is egalitarian, the great leveling blank slate.

00:31:00.160 Um, as far as why there's a skittishness about forwarding Christian politics, I think you're 0.85

00:31:05.360 seeing a little bit of this in the States tape with the attempt to fold, um, a billion Indians 1.00

00:31:10.480 and also, uh, Jewish interest groups into the Republican party.

00:31:14.520 It's very conspicuous that Mar-a-Lago just hosted a Hindu Jewish, like joint advocacy group 0.53

00:31:19.280 where Laura Trump spoke at it.

00:31:21.080 Um, the Christian Americans aren't present. 0.96

00:31:23.140 Neither of those faiths built your civilization. 0.99

00:31:25.240 They built other countries, which I think their practitioners would probably be happier

00:31:29.160 living there than trying to demographically and culturally terraform the United States.

00:31:33.520 In Britain, there's some of that going on as well.

00:31:36.520 I mean, there's, there's a lot of, uh, Muslim groups in both the Labour party and increasing

00:31:41.340 reform UK, but also never underestimate the extent to which the Conservative party was captured.

00:31:46.820 And this is a really weird phenomenon that nobody talks about by Scottish liberals who

00:31:51.760 are obsessed with being led by minority politicians.

00:31:54.900 Like there are multiple, there's, there's, there's Neil Ferguson, there's, uh, Fraser

00:31:58.820 Nelson, there's Michael Gove, there's Andrew Roberts.

00:32:01.560 And for some reason, there's a kind of Humean skepticism about organized religion in total,

00:32:06.680 um, despite them being ardent Arabists and loving, loving Islam because they think the extent 0.97

00:32:11.900 of Arab civilization is calligraphy and like squiggly buildings and minarets, um, rather than 1.00

00:32:16.800 cousin marriage and organized child rape.

00:32:19.020 But the other part of this is that for some reason, they astroturf minority politicians 0.95

00:32:23.600 at, at all stages of their career, whether it's Rishi Sunak, Hindu, Kemi Badnak, Atheist,

00:32:30.640 Zia Yusuf, Muslim, question mark. 1.00

00:32:34.000 Like for some reason, there is a complete denial of the host majority being able to practice

00:32:40.380 a politics of their own identity, even when that pre-political we, as Roger Scruton would

00:32:45.080 say, is made incoherent by rapid demographic and cultural change.

00:32:49.800 And so you can't actually talk about policies and infrastructure.

00:32:52.940 Instead, you're re-litigating who is the moral and political constituency who has supremacy

00:32:57.440 in the country.

00:32:58.320 But also there's this squeamishness about the ancestral foundational religion that built

00:33:03.980 up our country.

00:33:04.880 Meanwhile, we're allowed to practice literally other other religion.

00:33:07.380 And I wanted to segue, if I can, off that point, and I'm sure you guys will have something

00:33:10.860 to say about what I said, but Charlie, you read this, Tate, you might not have.

00:33:15.600 There was a piece in Unheard, um, which is the, the counterpart to the Spectator in the

00:33:20.600 UK.

00:33:20.820 It's meant to be like the center left, like millennial coded version of the Spectator, written by Samuel

00:33:25.940 Rubenstein.

00:33:27.280 Yeah, Unheard, who's it for?

00:33:28.860 Um, Samuel Rubenstein, who wrote, is reform going to Christian?

00:33:32.520 And in it, he tries to take, he does the, the op thing we were talking about, Tate before,

00:33:37.600 of linking Vance to like Nick Fuentes.

00:33:40.260 This time he links James Orr to JD Vance, because James Orr, friend of mine, is in Reform

00:33:45.700 UK, was Vance's advisor.

00:33:47.960 And then he links Vance to me.

00:33:50.680 And he, unironically for a party with a gay chairman who's in favor of trans people in 0.97

00:33:56.120 women's prisons and two Muslim spokespeople. 0.99

00:33:58.700 He writes, about reform being too Christian, or, strange things are afoot on the religious

00:34:04.420 right, especially on the younger end.

00:34:06.140 The self-declared reactionary Catholic Zoomer Connor Tomlinson, who's close to Liz Truss

00:34:09.860 and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and boasts almost 100,000 followers on X, questions whether those adhering

00:34:14.440 to any faith other than Christian, or belonging to any faith besides British, should be allowed

00:34:18.840 to hold public office.

00:34:20.080 Now, if I were to say, is Israel too Jewish, or is the Labour Party too Muslim, or is the Conservative

00:34:26.580 Party too Jewish, my career would be over. 1.00

00:34:29.100 I mean, it is already over in those respective parties.

00:34:31.220 But, for some reason, we're allowed to just completely trash the integral ancestral religion

00:34:37.040 of our nation.

00:34:39.400 And we're not allowed to say, only Brits should be in British politics.

00:34:43.220 For some reason, we should be this sort of multicultural revolving door with no faith 1.00

00:34:47.080 of our own, but every other nation gets to be blood and soil nationalists and theocrats.

00:34:51.000 Yeah, well, it stems back to the point you made regarding the serpent being the original

00:34:56.960 liberal.

00:34:57.600 That's very valid, because what did the serpent do?

00:34:59.600 The serpent just asked, I don't know, did God really say that?

00:35:02.640 And that's all liberalism really is, is taking anything that was assigned to you at birth,

00:35:07.640 that was God given to you, and liberalism turns around and says, I don't know, did God

00:35:11.860 really say that?

00:35:13.520 You should just ignore that voice in the back of your head telling you, this is wrong,

00:35:16.560 this is wrong, this is wrong.

00:35:17.720 You should just double down on that, and it just breeds misery, and that stems into

00:35:22.340 the modern day, into our political system, where you might say, and you look at the makeup

00:35:28.640 of Britain, it's primarily British, and we're electing these politicians, they're pushing

00:35:33.480 these politicians that aren't, because they're saying, I don't know, is that really necessary?

00:35:37.760 They've got to really make this country British. 0.85

00:35:40.460 It's a whole thing, where in America, I think when we have these AstroTurf DEI candidates,

00:35:46.680 these are typically pushed because they're convinced that if you, for example, if you

00:35:51.800 nominate a black person for governor, that you're going to somehow win black votes.

00:35:56.120 I think it's just misguided consulting, versus in Britain, it seems like it's literally just 0.97

00:36:03.120 out of almost demonic self-hatred, where it's like penance for being a white Brit.

00:36:10.340 You're denying yourself political access, trying to justify some sort of wrong, some sort of

00:36:15.900 cosmic ledger that needs to be leveled.

00:36:19.300 It's really, really bizarre, because in the US, it exists to some degree, especially on

00:36:24.320 the left, but on the right, it just seems like it's just bad political strategy.

00:36:30.900 It's really, really, really pernicious stuff.

00:36:34.480 It's interesting you mentioned political strategy there, Tate, because this was a large feature

00:36:38.460 of the articles that appeared in Unheard and Pimlico Journal, which was basically not to address

00:36:45.040 the truth claims of Christianity, but instead just to look at whether or not they're popular

00:36:51.440 enough to win an election, which, in my view, is a really, really superficial way to look

00:36:55.180 at things, because it's like, you know, I don't think any of us are saying that we want

00:36:59.000 Reform UK to be, like, Bible bashing and campaigning on, you know, making abortion illegal in all

00:37:04.940 cases, and having, like, a crucifix put up on Big Ben and all this sort of stuff.

00:37:10.340 Like, and this is...

00:37:11.540 Yeah, that sounds great.

00:37:12.940 Yeah, but this is the picture, like, the stereotype, the straw man that is presented in these

00:37:19.700 outlets, like, they seem to think that what, Connor, you and I, are advocating for is that

00:37:26.360 kind... is a kind of very American sort of evangelical, preachy form of Christianity, and hey, maybe

00:37:32.340 we are preachy, I don't know, but look, I mean, if we don't have a kind of sense of what is

00:37:39.360 objectively right and wrong and objectively true and objectively beautiful, then we are

00:37:43.780 relativists, and our enemies are relativists, and part of, you know, one of the fundamental

00:37:48.200 problems in Britain today is relativism, because if you talk to a lot of people, and I've experienced

00:37:52.820 this in my own life, perfectly ordinary people who have, you know, a nascent kind of Christian

00:37:57.800 sort of moral sort of instincts, if you want, you know, I've had members of my own family

00:38:04.300 say they don't believe in objective right and wrong.

00:38:06.440 It's a very widespread belief, this.

00:38:08.160 I think there's a lot of reasons for that, but until we have remoralized our people, again, 1.00

00:38:12.640 I just don't think we're going to get out of the malaise that we're in, because

00:38:16.500 Tate, you made a really good point there, which is that kind of left-wing liberalism

00:38:20.760 seeks to deconstruct and strip a human being of all of their kind of natural or God-given

00:38:27.060 identities, and this is something that I have been speaking about and thinking about a great

00:38:31.120 deal recently, because the question is, what are those identities, and why do people, especially

00:38:36.260 young people, have such a tough time finding a sense of identity, and therefore go looking 1.00

00:38:41.220 in other places like sexuality and race and gender and all these sorts of things to find

00:38:45.840 a sense of identity, and in my view, these identities stem from what are in the Bible

00:38:51.740 called the covenants.

00:38:53.440 You know, you have the marriage as the first covenant between Adam and God, you then have

00:38:57.980 the household between Noah and God, you then have the tribe, which is Abraham, the nation,

00:39:03.000 which is Moses, the kingdom, which is David, and the church, which is Jesus, right?

00:39:07.300 And these covenants reflect the structure of all human civilisations in all times and places,

00:39:13.860 in my view.

00:39:14.560 These are unchanging structures that humanity, left to its own devices, will always return

00:39:19.480 to, right?

00:39:20.600 But the entire project of modern liberalism, the modern liberal moral paradigm that we suffer

00:39:26.980 under, the entirely expressed purpose of it is to escape all of those structures, is to

00:39:32.680 regard those structures as being essentially prisons, oppressive power structures that are

00:39:37.420 designed to keep you down.

00:39:38.840 This is especially the case, for example, in marriage, like the feminist view of marriage 1.00

00:39:42.880 is that it is a, you know, an oppressive patriarchal power structure whose sole purpose is to prevent

00:39:48.940 women from living their truth and living, you know, living the life that they should be living, 1.00

00:39:53.820 which in every case ends up being punching a clock in a corporate office, which is, you know,

00:39:58.820 just such a, it's unbelievable that that lie has been so successful, because one would

00:40:03.180 think it would be self-evident that doing that is not as meaningful as raising a family.

00:40:08.300 But look, I mean, and this is the thing, like, the right needs to be embracing these ideas,

00:40:13.100 in my view.

00:40:13.660 We can't just be sort of having liberal assumptions about these things, having liberal assumptions

00:40:19.540 about marriage and about what the household is and about what the nation itself actually

00:40:24.040 is, if we want to win. Because in every case, if we do not have these principles that are rooted

00:40:29.780 in eternal truth, then our enemies are always going to be able to beat us. Because inevitably,

00:40:35.340 if we don't, if we're not rooted in eternal truth, then we're rooted in relativism. And our enemies

00:40:40.480 are rooted in relativism, and they're just going to take it to their logical conclusion where we're

00:40:44.040 not prepared to do that. And so people will see them as being the more authentic offering.

00:40:47.640 That was a... I really like that framing of things as covenants. We haven't discussed

00:40:54.580 that off-air before, but we should be furthering that.

00:40:57.500 It's something I've been thinking about a lot. I mean, it is the answer. It's the right's

00:41:00.920 answer to identity politics. Because where the left says gay, black, you know, disabled, 0.79

00:41:07.160 trans, Muslim, we say husband, father, Englishman, Christian, right?

00:41:13.340 And those are, first of all, not self-centered identities. They are identities that require the

00:41:21.400 presence of another human being to make any sense. And they are an endless font of meaning.

00:41:27.620 They're never going to run out, right? Whereas those other ones, those kind of individualistic,

00:41:31.580 hedonistic identities, will eventually, worldly identities even, we could call them,

00:41:37.240 they will eventually run out. And the same is true of the rights version of that, which is basically

00:41:42.420 to be like a banker or like some kind of executive earning a good salary. Like eventually that is

00:41:48.540 going to run dry as a source of meaning. But those, the identities that I listed are never going to

00:41:55.020 run dry. And that's why every single Englishman up until the last five minutes embraced those things

00:42:01.800 as being sources of meaning and truth. And I don't, again, I just can't wrap my head around why

00:42:08.040 this is such a controversial idea. Like these, these...

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00:43:00.740 This is what conservatism is supposed to be, right? What are we trying to conserve if not

00:43:05.620 marriage, if not the household, if not the integrity of the nation, and indeed the kingdom?

00:43:10.360 Because that's something else we forget, is Britain is not just a country. Britain is not

00:43:14.320 just a people. Britain is not indeed just a democracy or an economy. Britain is a kingdom,

00:43:19.760 and that has a very specific meaning. A kingdom is a set of nations united under one ruler,

00:43:24.480 which embodies the essence of that nation. And we, you know, admittedly don't have that right now,

00:43:29.520 but historically that is what we've been. And in turn, again, what is a nation? Well,

00:43:33.720 a nation is a series of tribes united under one law in one land, which is what England,

00:43:39.100 for example, is and has been continuously for a thousand years. And in turn, what are tribes?

00:43:44.420 Well, tribes, a series of households united by blood and by lineage and by ancestry and by language

00:43:50.740 and by religion in the same geographic kind of area. And in turn, what is a household? Well,

00:43:56.060 a household is a man and a woman married before God permanently with children and property. 0.84

00:44:02.000 And what is a marriage? Well, as I just said, it's a man and woman united permanently before God.

00:44:06.500 And so what we have here is a comprehensive description of what human civilization is.

00:44:11.860 And in my view, that is our answer to the challenges of the relativistic, materialistic

00:44:17.800 left. And I think just appealing to, you can just do things technocratic, basically,

00:44:24.400 finism is a far less compelling offering.

00:44:27.700 Yeah, well, the idea that you can just press the fix everything switch and it's mass deportations

00:44:33.880 and you return us to a homogenous civilization. I mean, it will fix a lot of logistical problems. 0.99

00:44:40.740 It will fix a lot of problems about cultural belonging and crime. But at root, you still 0.93

00:44:44.860 need some kind of cultural or spiritual revival, because the question is not just what are we

00:44:49.640 conserving? The question is also what are we reproducing? And this ties back to the abortion

00:44:53.320 conversation. I mean, currently, projections based on 2022, abortion levels. One in every

00:45:01.360 three pregnancies in Britain ends in abortion. So for every hundred live births, there are

00:45:05.620 48 abortions, which is just insane. And I think this actually links up to, this is just

00:45:11.360 one vector of demographic replacement, as well as migration, but also outward migration.

00:45:15.720 And a lot of the analysis about why there are so many young people leaving the UK, why

00:45:21.300 we are the number one nation in the world for brain drain, for millionaires leaving, but

00:45:25.440 also why the figures for people who left Britain got revised up last year from 17,000 to 257,000

00:45:32.780 people leaving to move abroad. Part of the reason is that we aren't reproducing our civilization,

00:45:38.260 not in terms of physical bodies, but also in terms of culture, in terms of those concentric

00:45:42.180 circles of belonging, the ordo amoris that Vance ratioed Rory Stewart with. The alternative

00:45:47.860 to that is, as you've said, the varying flavors of liberalism, where if you don't have any

00:45:52.340 relationships with the people around you, if you don't have any responsibilities to fulfill

00:45:55.400 any moral obligations, if you don't have, as Peterson once compellingly said, that duty

00:46:01.340 out in the future of the day at which you will be judged because you have to give the eulogy

00:46:05.180 at your father's funeral and be the shoulder on which your female relatives can cry, if that's 0.94

00:46:09.620 not a realistic prospect for you. The only relationship you have is with the state. And so you end

00:46:13.700 up getting the left-coded or the right-coded versions of liberalism, where the left-coded

00:46:18.060 version of liberalism is like what John Gray wrote in New Statesman this week, where he's

00:46:22.540 literally like, I'm not a post-liberal. In fact, Leviathan is the only thing that can

00:46:26.960 stop the all-out war of all-against-all between ethnic and religious tribes in our country, 0.51

00:46:31.480 because he said folks like Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farrow getting close to power was unfathomable,

00:46:36.240 so literally we can't deport all these people, we're stuck here forever, so we have to become,

00:46:39.420 a low-trust surveillance state to enforce one way of life on everyone. And what the

00:46:44.800 right-wing liberals don't understand in the same way as the left-wing liberals don't understand

00:46:48.100 is that all those conceptions of liberal egalitarianism, you know, just doing things,

00:46:53.620 a state that is kind of omnicompetent to keep the peace, rests on a shared set of cultural

00:46:59.060 assumptions that you aren't reproducing because they're fundamentally Christian at root. And all

00:47:03.500 the people you've imported into your civilization who are having kids at much higher rates, like 0.89

00:47:07.180 a third of all births now are to immigrant mothers. Don't share those assumptions. And

00:47:11.360 so you won't get Leviathan, you'll get like Liberia or Lebanon or Lahore sooner than you

00:47:16.000 will this omnicompetent state. So it's not just a failed enterprise. Ultimately, it's because

00:47:21.080 you've abandoned Christianity, you're not giving people a sense of belonging in which to have 0.72

00:47:25.340 and raise children in, they're not staying in the country. And so all those people that 0.99

00:47:29.300 you've, you've, you're relying on to do this right-wing revival, they don't have the principles

00:47:33.100 and they don't have the personnel to do it. And the-

00:47:36.120 Go for it. Sorry. Go on.

00:47:38.340 No, no, no. Please.

00:47:39.600 Well, this, this I think is what is so revealing about the name Reform UK. Because what that

00:47:45.360 says, first of all, is that you conceive of this country in the same way that the Blairites

00:47:49.900 did, which is as the UK, which is a very recent name for this particular polity. And what you're

00:47:58.080 seeking to do is not overturn that order, which has been the source of so many of the ills

00:48:04.100 that particularly young people suffer from in this country, whether that is demographic

00:48:08.300 replacement and the prospect of the white British population becoming an ethnic minority in this

00:48:12.880 country in less than 50 years, whether that is the cost of housing, whether that is the rate

00:48:17.420 of tax, all of these sorts of things. You're not seeking to tear down that order. You're seeking

00:48:21.920 to reform it. You're seeking to reform the UK, as it were. And that, I don't think, is what

00:48:27.460 any of us actually want. Like, none of us actually want this order. None of us believe

00:48:30.920 that this, that this way of doing things is fundamentally right, but that our current leaders

00:48:35.200 are just getting it wrong. It's like real UK has never been tried, if you want. But that

00:48:40.800 kind of is what the reform, the people in their orbit, like Samuel Rubenstein, like Pimlico

00:48:46.640 Journal, are kind of seeking to do. Like, they agree on the basic, on the fundamentals of

00:48:51.660 this political project. They just think that it's being executed badly. And, and so that's

00:48:56.780 why they are, I think, hostile to our ideas, which are basically to, if you want, restore

00:49:01.140 Britain, which is why we called our organization that. It's like, like, Britain is a far thicker,

00:49:05.980 older conception of this land, which is not as a kind of economic zone UK PLC, but actually,

00:49:12.620 as I was saying before, as a kingdom, which is a far deeper thing, in my view. And so, you

00:49:19.000 know, again, I, I just, I think it's likely that reform are going to win the 2029 election.

00:49:25.100 But until they are ready to confront these issues, I don't think that they are going to

00:49:29.300 save the country. Because again, the useful thing about the conceptual framework that I

00:49:33.020 have laid out is that you can look at the problems that we face as a country, as a nation,

00:49:38.200 as a kingdom, and you can almost plug them into that framework and understand what it is that

00:49:43.120 they're attacking. Because it's like, yes, everybody agrees that demographic replacement, 0.99

00:49:46.760 mass immigration, legal and illegal, is the, is the most pressing issue of our time,

00:49:50.620 because it is the most consequential, most tangible, most visible symptom, if you want,

00:49:57.160 of the sickness that currently afflicts our society. But what it is an attack on is the

00:50:01.720 nation. What mass immigration is an attack on is the nation. But actually, there are attacks on all 1.00

00:50:06.340 of the other covenant structures at the same time. Marriage, for example, has been entirely undermined

00:50:11.340 in this country by no-fault divorce, by gay marriage, by frankly, the prevalence of pornography 0.52

00:50:16.080 and contraception, which make a kind of product of the marital act, which should be fruitful and 0.82

00:50:21.120 productive, and rooted in love, instead of essentially self-gratification. The household,

00:50:26.480 likewise, has been undermined, because nobody can actually own their own property. Everyone is a

00:50:31.560 perpetual renter, whether that's from a landlord or from a bank. And as I say, it's very difficult for

00:50:37.640 people to raise children in this country that are actually their own children, because the state

00:50:42.280 makes such an effort to indoctrinate them using the public education system. And again, the tribe,

00:50:47.580 I think this is perhaps the most controversial, but the concept of racism, like the actual concept of

00:50:52.320 racism and its analog anti-racism, tell you that the mere recognition of tribal identity, by which I 0.54

00:51:00.240 mean in the modern sort of vernacular, ethnicity, essentially, merely to recognize that and to express any

00:51:06.460 degree of preference for one's own tribe, it's evil. It's like the greatest moral sin that one can 0.57

00:51:12.640 commit under liberalism. And I could go on, I mean, like the kingdom, for example, well, it's liberal

00:51:17.480 democracy. Liberal democracy undermines the integrity of the kingdom, because it does not raise up leaders

00:51:21.700 who embody the essence of the nation, but instead raises up the people who can lie most effectively

00:51:25.600 to the public, and who are prepared to take the most money from moneyed interests, so they can run for

00:51:29.500 office. And I realize this sounds like a really, like, cynical view of this country, and I don't like to come

00:51:33.640 down on Britain too much, because I think this is still, despite everything, a great place to live.

00:51:38.960 And I'm never going to leave, Connor, as I know you agree. But my goodness, like, what a state we're

00:51:44.440 in. And once again, until, in my view, we are prepared to confront the totality of the sickness

00:51:50.160 that afflicts this country, we're not going to rescue it from, you know, from hell, right? And if

00:51:56.180 we're just focusing on demographics, if we're just focusing on kick out all the immigrants, and then 1.00

00:51:59.860 everything will be fine, if that is our political project, then we are going to lose.

00:52:03.640 Like, we need to have a better answer than that.

00:52:06.000 Yeah, well, if you haven't conceptualized your own framework, because what happens is people will

00:52:11.080 point out, like, part of this, you know, this coalition that the left has built, and they see

00:52:15.920 how they're competing for, you know, they have, would, in theory, have competing interests, and people

00:52:20.620 sit there and scratch their heads, like, what do they even have in common? Like, what is a gay person? 0.99

00:52:24.360 Why is a gay person lining and linking arms with, like, a Muslim? Like, why is it even happening? 1.00

00:52:28.500 And it's like, because if you haven't developed that actual Christian right-wing framework,

00:52:32.140 you don't really understand what those people have in common, what goal those people have

00:52:36.600 in common. But, Charlie, with the framework you've outlined, it makes perfect sense what

00:52:40.680 they're trying to do. It makes perfect sense why they actually would see more in common

00:52:43.900 with each other than, like, I don't know, this liberal system that, you know, these older

00:52:48.540 folks are still trying to keep alive. It's so brutal.

00:52:50.980 If I may, if I can add to that, there is one thing that you need to look at to understand

00:52:55.280 this, and that is the Progress Pride flag. Because the Progress Pride flag, this is the

00:52:59.520 one with the rainbow flag.

00:53:00.980 You can drop a DLC.

00:53:02.040 Yeah, I know, right? With the sort of the black and brown and trans chevrons on it. 1.00

00:53:06.800 They added the Resident Evil umbrella symbol to represent sex workers at some point.

00:53:11.560 Yeah, that was the red orifice in the middle of it.

00:53:14.180 Yeah. But that is the flag of what you are describing, Tate, which is a coalition of groups

00:53:20.740 and individuals which stand opposed to marriage and to the household and to the tribe, the

00:53:26.160 nation, the kingdom, and the church. That is what they are uniting around. And, you know,

00:53:30.820 and I think that once again, once you conceive of it in that way, there is no reason to permit

00:53:36.760 that. Like, and I had a debate at the Battle of Ideas, which is a very liberal kind of quasi-communist

00:53:42.600 event that happens in this country every year, Tate. I was invited to debate a chap called

00:53:47.400 Albie Amancona, who is a conservative, he calls himself, but he is also the head of

00:53:52.700 the LGBT Tories and also the Tories, what is it, Conservatives Against Racism? 0.95

00:53:57.120 He's just a gay black liberal. 0.99

00:53:59.240 He's just a gay black liberal. 0.99

00:54:00.160 I don't dislike Albie as a person. I had a very pleasant interaction with him. But I said 0.80

00:54:06.860 in that debate that, because it was a debate about free speech, and I'm personally very,

00:54:10.380 you know, I believe in free speech very strongly. However, I caveat that by saying I'm not entirely

00:54:15.760 convinced. I'm sceptical of the idea that free speech is everywhere and always, or debate

00:54:20.220 perhaps is everywhere and always, a truth-seeking exercise. Because I think that people believe

00:54:24.600 things for all sorts of reasons. I think people believe things for reasons of pride and for

00:54:28.860 reasons of kind of, you know, it serves their interest. Because like, you know, the people

00:54:32.280 that subscribe to woke, you know, kind of gender ideology, if you want, as an example,

00:54:37.620 like, I don't think they believe in that stuff because they believe it's true. I think they

00:54:40.620 believe in it because it serves their own lifestyle and their own appetites, frankly.

00:54:44.400 And so you're not going to argue those people out of that position because they weren't argued

00:54:47.500 into it in the first place. So the idea that limitless, like, endless debate is everywhere

00:54:51.260 and always the most effective way of, you know, locating, you know, like, identifying the truth

00:54:55.920 and getting further, closer to the truth, I don't think is necessarily true. But in that debate,

00:55:00.460 I made the case that the progress pride flag should be banned. It should be illegal to fly the 1.00

00:55:05.520 progress pride flag in state buildings and indeed in private buildings. Yeah, I do not believe, 0.65

00:55:11.120 like, if, you know, in the privacy of your own home, I think that it's fine because I think that is,

00:55:15.920 that would be an overreach to say that you can't fly in the privacy of your own home. But think of the

00:55:19.860 things that have been done in the name of that flag. Seriously, think of the mutilation of misguided

00:55:25.340 teenagers, Connor, as you have spoken about recently. Think of, I mean, I would go as far as to say

00:55:29.880 as, you know, even like the killing of Charlie Cook, right, was done in the name of that flag.

00:55:35.320 Totally.

00:55:35.620 The terrible, terrible, and like the covering up of the grooming gangs was done in the name of that flag. 1.00

00:55:40.200 Mass immigration has been done in the name of that flag. But this is a flag that represents

00:55:44.440 everything that stands against truth, everything that stands against beauty and order

00:55:48.020 and goodness, like fundamental moral decency, right? And so I don't see a reason that you should

00:55:54.320 permit an ideology like that, that is civilizational poison, civilizational acid to be kind of

00:56:00.340 proliferated in your society. There's no good argument. And if your argument is, well, free

00:56:04.160 speech, I will say, well, I just, I just don't agree with that. You know?

00:56:07.920 Totally.

00:56:08.700 Yeah. I feel like abortion really is the crown jewel of that ideology. That's why when they're,

00:56:14.760 at least in stateside, when there's any sort of threats to put some sort of restriction on abortion,

00:56:19.540 nothing turns out the left quite like the Republicans proposing some sort of abortion

00:56:24.440 restriction because fundamentally abortion really is, like I said, the crown jewel of that ideology,

00:56:29.140 because you are saying we have this system, liberal democracy and a child, a gift from God is an

00:56:35.820 impediment on your ability to participate in the system as effectively as possible. Therefore you

00:56:41.020 must sacrifice your child on the altar of liberal democracy. It is harrowing. It is harrowing.

00:56:47.480 And that's why I think the pro-life movement, at least in the United States, that's why it's

00:56:52.180 received perhaps the most vitriol from the left out of all the things that, you know, the right

00:56:57.520 wing in America is proposing, even immigration restriction, which, you know, it's probably the

00:57:01.280 second most sort of abrasive position that the right holds in the United States. Abortion is what 0.79

00:57:08.380 really turns out the left, because I think they know fundamentally deep down inside that that kind of

00:57:14.180 is the ultimate test. That's probably the furthest you can push a human being. I would say even more

00:57:18.880 so than trans transgenderism. I mean, and that's involving self mutilation, these sorts of things. 0.98

00:57:23.280 Abortion is the furthest you can push a human being in service to liberal democracy. You're literally

00:57:30.760 telling a mother to kill her offspring in service to this world order. It's absolutely, absolutely 0.90

00:57:37.700 nightmarish. Yeah. And this is the thing, Tate, is there really is, you know, very limited mainstream

00:57:43.220 public discourse about the topic of abortion in this country, because I think a lot of people

00:57:47.000 don't think about it a lot. It's regarded as being a debate that's kind of done. It's not something that

00:57:52.620 we talk about in this country. And I think that is largely because of what we were talking about

00:57:56.820 before, which is that there's very little in the way of public appetite for conversations

00:58:01.680 around deeper issues about what life is about, about what a human life is and is not, what is

00:58:10.380 right and wrong, basically. And I think that, you know, the unwillingness to confront those issues is

00:58:15.620 largely born out of a culture that does have the self as its moral center of gravity. Because what

00:58:21.160 greater expression, as you say, Tate, what greater expression of a self-centered culture could there

00:58:27.840 possibly be than a mother, frankly, murdering her own child in the name of her own comfort and her 0.80

00:58:35.160 own, you know, her own career, for example. And look, I think that we are so deep into this that,

00:58:42.620 like you say, I've spoken to people in my own life who are not particularly political, but they are

00:58:47.540 pro-choice because it is, it's held up as an article of faith in this kind of liberal moral paradigm.

00:58:53.800 But even in the most extreme cases, the like kind of limit cases, like, for example, a situation where

00:59:00.560 someone has been raped or something horrible like that, right? I, for a long time, you know, I did

00:59:08.260 basically think, well, look, I'm against abortion in most cases, but if that was to happen to a member

00:59:11.380 of my family, would I want them to keep that baby? Well, probably not. But actually what I realize now is

00:59:16.680 that that, you know, regardless of how noble that might sound, you still are operating from a moral

00:59:22.180 framework that has the individual as its moral center of gravity. And in my view, any moral

00:59:28.580 paradigm that has that is fundamentally against the will of God, because you are placing yourself

00:59:33.920 into the position, into the station of God. And I think that any civilization that embraces that

00:59:41.120 en masse is ultimately destined for destruction. And that is kind of, that's kind of where Britain is. 0.67

00:59:45.460 Yeah, I agree. My political position has long been, don't attribute intergenerational guilt to the

00:59:51.340 unborn child that should lie with the predatory father. And so, uh, sex offending father don't

00:59:57.520 kill the child. You know, that, that, that should be a pretty good moral calculation. But abortion has 0.99

01:00:02.420 become this liberal sacrament because it is the, Mary Aronson's written about this before, it is the

01:00:08.980 most visceral possible expression of individual autonomy to say that my adult appetites come at the

01:00:16.480 expense of the sanctity of life for an innocent unborn human being. And this was actually expressed

01:00:22.520 in a very personal way with, so I, I'll, I'll keep the identity of this person anonymous, but someone

01:00:29.280 who was a longtime friend of my wife who found out what I did when they stumbled upon me in a video that

01:00:37.620 was criticizing me as one of these far right pronatalists saying that, you know, people who want to have

01:00:43.360 kids should have more kids. Maybe it might be a better solution. Yeah. A bit better solution than,

01:00:48.240 you know, battery farming Africans till the heat death of the universe to pay boomer pensions, 1.00

01:00:52.220 heaven forbid. And he came to me to basically interrogate me on all of my, my evil right-wing 0.51

01:00:58.100 beliefs. And one of the things that he felt strongly about was abortion, but it wasn't out of this

01:01:03.120 principle because I just kept Socratically questioning whether or not he would feel uncomfortable

01:01:07.200 where, what, what his standard for the sanctity of life was, how he can support human rights for

01:01:12.280 foreign human beings, but then arbitrarily argued that a baby is not a human being. And it boiled

01:01:17.280 down to two things. One, he wanted to use abortion in his own personal circumstances, even though he

01:01:24.960 would feel uncomfortable doing it just in case he, you know, wasn't ready to be a father yet, or there

01:01:29.260 was some genetic defect that was unforeseeable and would make his life inconvenient, therefore

01:01:33.860 instrumentalizing the worth of a, another human being to what's convenient for him, his personal

01:01:38.660 is actually eugenics. Like, this is just, it's just eugenics. 0.54

01:01:41.860 Yeah, exactly. Which is why there's, we're battling over whether or not we're practicing

01:01:46.740 dysgenic liberalism or eugenic liberalism with the right and left. But then the other argument

01:01:50.200 that he had was he just defaulted to NPC talking points because when, when I hit up against that

01:01:54.720 moral brick wall, he just started saying, well, it's just a, it's just a zygote and, uh, and

01:01:59.980 fetuses don't have consciousness. And it was like these wrote, learned Reddit talking points.

01:02:03.540 And so what you have to realize is, going back to what you were saying, Charlie, debate

01:02:07.040 is itself not always the instrument to realize these tools because lots of people aren't

01:02:12.760 conscious and lots of people aren't engaging in good faith interlocution. Instead, they're

01:02:17.280 just trying to serve their own basist appetites. And those basist appetites present a temptation

01:02:23.540 that means that if they're not serving God, their wife, their community, their congregation,

01:02:29.260 their country, instead they are serving something else. And it's an entity that usually turns

01:02:33.580 us against our own nature, which could, even if you want to take it as a metaphor, be

01:02:37.980 described as demonic. And so even though this will get us accused of illiberalism and being

01:02:42.460 post-liberals and Christian nationalists, I just think we need to take these issues off

01:02:45.660 the table. And I'm not going to be subject, I'm not going to subject my moral positions to

01:02:50.640 a popularity contest or sort of like a mean girl disapproval from the pages of even the

01:02:57.080 the good spirits.

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01:03:47.720 ...of Pimlico Journal and concede this issue, I'm afraid.

01:03:50.760 ...green.

01:03:51.720 Yeah, agreed. Agreed. I mean, that's the thing, Christian nationalism is not even a label I would

01:03:56.760 embrace. I'm just, I'm just a Christian. Like, that's kind of where my political positions

01:04:01.720 begin and end. That's what it's informed by. And again, it kind of blows my mind that that's so

01:04:07.400 controversial.

01:04:07.960 Yeah. I'm a Christian that happens to be a nationalist. It's a...

01:04:11.720 Yeah.

01:04:12.440 ...no need to join them. Well, fellas, this has been a great chat. I guess we'll wind down here. We're

01:04:17.480 kind of running out of time. But Charlie, you got any closing thoughts on where people can find you for

01:04:21.640 more? Sure. Yeah. Well, thanks very much for having me. You guys, it's been a real pleasure. Good,

01:04:25.800 good chat. I would encourage everybody to check up Restore Britain, which is the organization that

01:04:30.920 I work for. You can join if you are somebody who is concerned about the future of Britain

01:04:35.400 as a member for £20 a year. And I would encourage everybody to do so. Check out our new podcast.

01:04:40.280 As I said, that's with myself, Lewis Brackpool, who is our director of investigations, a very,

01:04:44.680 very good journalist in Britain. And Rupert Lowe, who is, as I said, our leader and a current

01:04:49.480 member of parliament. You can find my work on my X page at cfdowns with an underscore at the end.

01:04:56.520 As I said, I write for the Daily Mail. You can read some of my work on there. And yeah,

01:05:01.720 thanks very much for having me, guys. Yes, sir. Connor, what about you?

01:05:05.400 Pleasure. Yeah. Keep an eye on Restore Britain in the new year, because it's a citadel of enterprising

01:05:10.840 young talent in Britain. And I'm sure there might be new faces popping up. Whoever knows. You can find

01:05:16.920 my work at con underscore Tomlinson on X. You can find me at Connor Tomlinson on YouTube or on

01:05:21.880 Substack. And you can read my writing over at Courage Media. And thank you yet again for tuning

01:05:26.600 into our weekly show. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, let's get Britain restored, fellas. You guys are

01:05:32.760 like doing, you're active in it. You know, we're trying to restore America. We don't really use

01:05:36.680 restore. It's almost too fancy, but we're just making America great again.

01:05:40.120 It's a little easier to restore, I would say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we'll be back this week

01:05:47.080 with, well, kind of. We're here Monday, Tuesday. It's Thanksgiving week. It means nothing to my

01:05:52.120 English friends. It just sounds like some yank nonsense. But it's Thanksgiving. It's where we 0.75

01:05:55.880 celebrate the Indians giving us all the land for free. It was very nice of them. So we're going to

01:05:59.960 be celebrating eating turkey. Enjoy the turkey with your family. Turkey is the American food. I don't

01:06:05.160 want to see any ham nonsense. That can be a side dish, but it's all turkey all the time. You can

01:06:10.040 find me on Instagram at Real Tate Brown. And we'll have a special Thanksgiving edition going up

01:06:14.760 later this week with the John Doyle. So be on the lookout for that. With that,

01:06:18.760 thank you very much for watching. We'll see you guys next time.

The Culture War - Tim Pool - November 23, 2025

Christian Nationalism Revolution Is Coming To Britain ft. Charlie Downes ｜ Across The Pond

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