Christian Nationalism Revolution Is Coming To Britain ft. Charlie Downes ｜ Across The Pond
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 6 minutes
Words per Minute
192.90172
Summary
In this episode of Across the Pond, we're joined by Charlie Downs, the Director of Restore Britain, a group dedicated to unseating Prime Minister Theresa May and her husband, the Prime Minister, Theresa May, in 2020.
Transcript
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But that's fundamentally the framework that you have to present to get us out of this mess, is you have to be willing to tell people no.
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You have to be willing to tell people, hey, no, this is corrosive to your soul, therefore it's going to be outlawed.
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Ultimately, it's because you've abandoned Christianity, you're not giving people a sense of belonging in which to have and raise children in,
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they're not staying in the country, and so all those people that you're relying on to do this right-wing revival,
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they don't have the principles and they don't have the personnel to do it.
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Liberal democracy undermines the integrity of the kingdom because it does not raise up leaders who embody the essence of the nation,
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but instead raises up the people who rely most effectively to the public
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and who are prepared to take the most money from moneyed interests so they can run for office.
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We're here for another installation of Across the Pond.
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We've been very American-heavy, so we're switching it up here.
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Can you give the people a quick intro of who you are, what you do?
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I am the campaign's director at Restore Britain,
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which is a British pressure group led by Rupert Lowe MP,
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which is kind of our populist insurgent right-wing party,
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which a lot of people are putting their faith in.
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Rupert was unceremoniously booted out of the party earlier this year
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for the crime of challenging the position of the leader, Nigel Farage,
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and has since, well, essentially become the de facto leader of the right in Britain,
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He is commanding the discourse on a number of different issues.
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And Restore Britain was set up essentially to institutionalize his influence.
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But we have an enormous membership and an enormous following online.
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And this week we actually launched our podcast.
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So I'd recommend all listeners to go and check that out on the Restore Britain YouTube channel.
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I also have a show on GB News, which is kind of like our version of Fox News.
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And I write the Daily Mail on issues of English identity, kind of Zoomer politics, immigration, and so on.
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So, yeah, very pleased to be here tonight with you folks.
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Charlie's one of these guys that's sort of fitting the trend of enterprising, virtuous, young, informed, right-wing men.
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And I tweeted out the other day in response to that Corey Lewandowski – not Corey Lewandowski, Corey – who's the Florida congressman?
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Corey Mills, whose girlfriend is being passed around Washington.
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And I tweeted that being a heterosexual, married, monogamous white man in right-wing politics is simultaneously exhausting and a superpower because you're just un-blackmailable.
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So there's a growing body of Catholic Zoomer often takes a group in the UK Westminster.
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We're gay-capped out of every institution, but I think that's probably what we're going to end up talking about.
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So, Chud Maxey can actually benefit you politically massively.
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I mean, you know, anybody who has spent any time in Westminster or kind of media circles in Britain will know that they essentially do run off of blackmail.
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It's a really gross sphere to work in, to be honest with you.
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It's so infested by people who just have no control over their appetites in a lot of cases.
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And so it's kind of no wonder that the British right is in such a bad state, given that it's people like that who in a lot of ways run the show.
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I saw that tweet of yours and I thought, yeah, I agree.
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We brought Charlie in for a very specific reason.
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We got a plethora of stories really involving the abortion debate, which obviously the whole thing with Across the Pond is comparing and contrasting the political scene in the United States versus the United Kingdom.
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What I think a lot of American listeners don't quite know or understand, maybe a lot of them don't understand, is that the abortion debate in Britain is not really as preeminent as it is stateside.
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Maybe you could give a quick sort of rundown of where the abortion debate is at on your side of the pond.
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So we haven't had it be a central political issue since the 60s when abortion was implemented.
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It has only resurfaced recently because during the COVID lockdowns, the Conservative government made the decision to provide abortifacient pills through the post without any medical consultations.
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Two women after a phone call and one high-profile case involved a woman who was significantly far along in her pregnancy, I think it was about eight months, and she called up claiming she was much earlier, took the pills and killed her own child at home.
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And the response to this by the current feminist government, the Labour government in Britain, is to forward two private members' bills that decriminalised abortion up till birth.
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One kept the provision of non-sex selective abortions, so they banned it outright.
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The other one wanted to remove all restrictions entirely, and the one that got voted through on a Thursday afternoon when barely any MPs even knew about it, and it barely even had time for a debate, was the one to do with keeping sex selective abortion bans in place.
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But pretty much every other abortion has been decriminalised now in the UK, and this is why I think the issue is going to take centre stage,
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because alongside the Canada-made-style euthanasia bill that's being forced through Parliament in a very similar fashion,
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we have instrumentalised human worth in the UK, and you're starting to see some really creepy stuff around London.
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Like, we're already a Blade Runner, Running Man-style dystopia, but there were adverts for euthanasia up in Westminster Tube Station for a very long time,
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sponsored by Global, which is the largest advertising conglomerate which runs podcasts like the News Agents or LBC,
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one of the big, like, shit-lib radio broadcasters in the UK.
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Today, my wife took a photo and sent it to me, like, tweeted out, and we can flash up on screen and post,
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and there is this advert for egg harvesting in one of the major train stations in London,
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and it's got, typically, you know, majority white women on the board, and it's pasturing that egg harvesting is somehow some great use,
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some liberating, empowering use of one's autonomous choice.
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And it has become really insidious with the abortion debate, with the euthanasia debate,
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where, basically, the human worth has been reduced down to whatever saves the state money,
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and whatever maximizes the time at which you can either return to your desks to continue filling out spreadsheets
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for a corporation that wants to replace you with your cheaper foreign counterparts,
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or that you can basically sell off parts of your fertility in order to pay the rent.
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And the reason I wanted to segue into this is because it opens up a whole Pandora's box with
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the fertility rate information that's been revealed this week, the abortion rate that's been revealed this week that shocked people,
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and, uh, in the inverse, the hit pieces on young Christians in Westminster, like myself and Downs by name,
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that says, well, why would there possibly need to be Christianity in UK politics?
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Haven't we talked past this whole silly religion stuff?
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Pay no attention to the fact that Westminster is now a death cult.
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Yeah, I mean, maybe you could drill down a little more on why, specifically,
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the, I guess, British right abandoned the abortion issue so quickly after it, you know, became law,
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because in the United States, it's been re-litigated over and over again to the point where now
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the pro-life crowd got some major victories, obviously Roe v. Wade being overturned.
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And, I mean, I would presume this was, this would be due to the fact that America is still a very religious country
00:09:15.880
Obviously, the emphasis of Christianity in our government was there in varying degrees,
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but when Republicans were in office, obviously, they would sort of have to play ball with the evangelical base,
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saying the evangelical base was demanding restrictions on abortion, and that obviously came to fruition.
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Is that kind of what's why that you don't see this sort of pro-life insistence on the right in Britain
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is like a lack of Christianity, lack of religiosity?
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I'll throw it to Downs in a moment, because he'll doubtless have thoughts on this,
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but a little while ago, the Anglican Church, and we're both Catholics, so, you know, oh, well.
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The Anglican Church used to be known as the Tory party at prayer,
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and I think it's no coincidence that as the Conservative Party has morphed into the accelerationist vehicle
00:10:00.960
for gay race communism, whereas Tony Blair was, you know, he was a constitutional vandal,
00:10:06.640
and he intended to increase mass migration to, quote,
00:10:09.620
rub the right's nose in diversity, but he was a bit more subtle about it,
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rather than, you know, the Boris wave and flying trans pride flags from government buildings.
00:10:16.680
But as soon as the Conservative Party liberalised itself,
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and it was pressuring the Anglican Church to adopt gay marriage,
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it was one of the proudest achievements of David Cameron and Michael Gove's government in the 2010s,
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as soon as that happened, the Church became just another beam in the cathedral,
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you know, Yavin's idea of the cathedral, where it's just the amplifier of the progressive hegemony.
00:10:42.480
And so I think that the reason that our institutional church,
00:10:46.900
which is basically wedded to the monarchy, wedded to government at this point,
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became just another megaphone for the current thing,
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and that's why I think, one, Anglicanism is in complete freefall,
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that's why Catholics are now outnumbering Anglicans two to one among Zoomers,
00:11:02.060
but I think that the lack of an organised Christian pushback
00:11:05.680
and the connection between politics and the Church means that there hasn't been a large Christian pro-life movement
00:11:15.780
Yeah, well, what I'm increasingly realising is, for one thing,
00:11:19.200
the sort of left-right dichotomy means less and less with every passing day, in my view,
00:11:23.880
because, I don't know, in my view, the only real binary or distinction that matters in politics now
00:11:30.480
is just, like, true or false, and that's, like, capital T, capital F.
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This is not just some, you know, these are fundamental questions of truth,
00:11:38.080
and I think there's as much nonsense on the right as there is on the left,
00:11:41.400
because what I've realised is those people who pass,
00:11:43.060
a lot of those people who pass themselves off as being right-wing are basically liberal at bottom,
00:11:48.780
and what I mean by liberal is something very specific.
00:11:50.920
What I mean by that is somebody who has the self or the individual as their moral centre of gravity,
00:11:57.420
because I think there's, you know, there's a lot of discourse about why the right has basically conceded
00:12:04.480
every debate to the left when it comes to matters of culture over the last 50 or so years,
00:12:09.320
and my answer to that is that both the left and the right have had the individual or the self
00:12:15.180
as their moral centre of gravity, and the left have just been the ones to take that to its logical conclusion.
00:12:23.320
They have been the ones to push kind of, you know, woke sort of, you know, trans, LGBT stuff,
00:12:29.160
you know, in limitless self-expression, and the right's answer to that,
00:12:33.120
the right's version of a kind of self-centred culture is just to kind of endlessly bleat on about GDP
00:12:40.060
and encourage people to pursue a kind of corporate career
00:12:44.420
and sell them the idea that that's where they're going to find meaning and belonging.
00:12:48.300
And actually, on balance, I would say that to, certainly for young people, the left's offering,
00:12:53.840
when that is the kind of dichotomy, the left's offering is far more palatable, far more appealing.
00:12:59.960
And so there hasn't really been a right as such in this country in any kind of organised mainstream form
00:13:08.720
And that, I think, is why these cultural issues, issues that are kind of dismissed as being
00:13:15.520
not as important as the economy and not as important as growth and that sort of thing,
00:13:21.460
And actually, when you do raise them, even those people who do pass themselves off
00:13:25.840
as being on the right are not interested in touching them,
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because they are actually not, you know, they are individualists at the end of the world.
00:13:34.560
And this, I think, is the crucial thing, because there is this emerging faction of the right
00:13:38.900
in Britain who, well, there's an article in Pimlico Journal, which is one of the outlets
00:13:44.600
that has taken aim by name at myself and Connor.
00:13:49.380
There's an article in there called Why I Am a Zionist.
00:13:52.820
Now, this is a play on Zionists, obviously, but it's about Zia Youssef, who is the chairman
00:13:57.960
He's the head of policy at Reform UK, this Muslim fella who nobody seems to know anything about.
00:14:03.600
And he represents what Pimlico Journal would describe as a kind of technocratic populism,
00:14:09.260
So this is a desire to, it's almost like a Lee Kuan Yew sort of just looking at the metrics
00:14:13.700
and seeking to, you know, increase the metrics as much as possible in a way that's far preferable
00:14:18.960
to the kind of regime that we have now that just seeks to, you know, grow the GDP, whatever
00:14:25.220
I think they are, this kind of faction is looking at more meaningful metrics.
00:14:29.540
But actually, at the end of the day, they're not prepared to confront matters that can't
00:14:35.640
really be spoken about in the quantitative language of kind of managerialism and science.
00:14:41.740
But it's actually those issues that are, in a lot of ways, the most pressing of our time
00:14:45.440
in, you know, things like national identity and belonging, a feeling of meaning, a feeling
00:14:49.600
of purpose, things like abortion, life issues, euthanasia, and so on.
00:14:54.000
And so, you know, there is, there seems to be a very limited appetite for these kinds
00:15:00.240
But I think that's only because there hasn't been a force, an organized force in the mainstream
00:15:04.820
that has actually been putting the argument across in a compelling way for a very long
00:15:08.420
Because for right now, you know, Christianity in Britain, on the political scene, is kind
00:15:14.100
of dominated by people like, you know, UKIP and sort of Nick Tenkoni.
00:15:19.300
And it seems very much like an American import.
00:15:21.340
It seems very sort of, it just bounces off most English people.
00:15:24.480
And so I think it is, you know, certainly the mission of Restore Britain, to a certain
00:15:28.040
extent, and the mission of those of us of like mind in the kind of political scene, to,
00:15:33.640
in a way, like give Christianity a bit of a rebrand in Britain, and make it palatable
00:15:40.280
Because I don't think it has been for a long time.
00:15:41.500
It's like you say, Connor, the Anglican Church, the Church of England, is just an arm of the
00:15:45.900
It's just a mouthpiece of power that, in my view, has been completely hollowed out of any
00:15:51.320
real meaning or spiritual content, if indeed it was there at any time.
00:15:56.560
Yeah, I mean, the Anglican Church in the UK, because we have here, we have like our mainline
00:16:01.020
churches, which sort of the elite of our country up until about 50 years ago, the composition,
00:16:06.640
they were primarily, they were attending these mainline churches.
00:16:09.300
And I guess that would be sort of the equivalent analog stateside to the Anglican Church.
00:16:12.560
Obviously, the Anglican Church in the UK is an institution that is like wed to the government.
00:16:16.960
But either way, the thing that the Anglican Church and these mainline churches in the
00:16:22.060
United States have in common is that they're both functionally boomer NGOs.
00:16:26.340
Like there's any spirituality that was left in these churches is gone.
00:16:31.760
Yeah, like I said, they're fundamentally boomer NGOs.
00:16:34.000
And the point you're making, and it's so true, is again, the kind of stateside, we've
00:16:37.340
had this problem on the right where the most charitable interpretation of this would be they're
00:16:42.980
just trying to win votes, but they step into the left's framework and then try to beat them
00:16:49.020
You're just, you're never actually going to beat the left when you're playing on their
00:16:52.480
terms, because they can just like give away free stuff and whatnot.
00:16:57.940
You're not fighting with, you're not fighting on the same battlefield.
00:17:05.360
We're like, at least in the United States, the right, even though they were trying to like
00:17:10.780
Every once in a while, they throw a bone to the conservatives.
00:17:14.020
That just has not been occurring in the UK whatsoever.
00:17:17.140
The conservative party, like here, the joke is, oh, the Republican Party is there to slow
00:17:22.720
In the UK, it seems like the conservatives were just junior partners in this sort of
00:17:28.760
Like, labor, Tony Blair's labor party had immigration running at like 200,000 a year.
00:17:33.560
The conservatives put it to 1.2 million a year.
00:17:35.900
Bear in mind, America has legal migration for all 50 states at a million a year.
00:17:42.880
Regarding, so the Pimlico guys, so I want to be as charitable as possible because they
00:17:49.660
But I think they have published some good work with social housing stats.
00:17:55.880
But the bit that you're referencing, Charlie, I'll quote from.
00:17:59.720
Whilst a tiny fraction of the British population, these people are particularly prominent online.
00:18:03.820
I personally estimate they make up 13% of British right-wing ex-users, but are responsible
00:18:10.420
With personalities such as Connor Thompson and Charlie Downs, hello, advocating for the
00:18:14.660
re-centering of the right around political Christianity.
00:18:17.380
And when you say that they're liberals, what I think they are is they're advocating for
00:18:21.020
what they believe to be a eugenic kind of liberalism.
00:18:24.060
A kind of like ruthless Darwinian, we can just do things, twiddle the dials on economics
00:18:28.680
and if people fall through the cracks, fuck them.
00:18:30.740
Versus the disgenic liberalism that is practiced by, I mean, Zach Polanski being the prime ambassador
00:18:36.780
with his crooked teeth and frankly untrustworthiness, being a tit hypnotist and homosexual in coalition
00:18:44.420
Just a coalition of like total carnival freaks that should not be allowed anywhere near power.
00:18:50.320
But the problem that I think they have, and this is why they don't take Christianity seriously,
00:18:54.980
we can get onto the abortion stuff in a moment because there's like proper horrors happening
00:18:58.020
here that they don't seem to have a moral opposition to because it's just an expression
00:19:04.240
of liberal free choice and anytime we speak out about it, we're accused of being illiberal.
00:19:09.460
But the problem they have is they don't realize that all of their liberalism rests on a set
00:19:13.640
of suppositions and givens that they can't guarantee.
00:19:16.120
Like, if you want to be a eugenic liberal, if you want to pursue science and material progress
00:19:23.240
and you want to make it to the moon and create an Anglo-futurist colony with a thatched roof
00:19:29.360
Like, the Faustianism is a part of the Anglo spirit as much as it is being a hobbit and
00:19:33.100
being rooted and having your little patch of land, which is how I feel.
00:19:38.920
Like, capital T truth, because the scientific revolution did not take root in Western Christendom
00:19:46.780
It took place in the universities, which were scholastic enterprises by originally Catholic
00:19:51.700
scholars because they believed there was a universal truth.
00:19:54.520
They believed that you could understand God's creation via the logos.
00:19:57.980
And so you need to value truth in and of itself, objectively, with a sort of, you need to believe
00:20:03.740
there's a kind of moral maths written into the universe by a divine legislator.
00:20:07.740
However, so that science doesn't just become an instrument of ideology, because if you decouple
00:20:11.940
it from Christianity, if you decouple it from eternal moral principles, then you just get
00:20:16.160
the retarded dysgenic technocracy where you start playing, like, meet-lego-mits-and-match
00:20:22.100
to accommodate some crazy trans person's delusion about themselves, and even though you might
00:20:27.680
be momentarily frustrated by their incoherence and their logic, you don't actually have an
00:20:32.020
ethic that prevents them from indulging in that delusion and using science to meet their
00:20:37.840
So they need to understand that they act on a bunch of, a bit like Tom Holland's argument
00:20:45.420
Basically, they need to understand that they rest on a set of Christian suppositions, and
00:20:48.880
if they can't guarantee the Christian suppositions, then their right-wing liberal project won't
00:20:53.160
Yeah, if I could just add to that as well, Connor.
00:20:55.400
I don't know if either of you saw Tucker Carlson's interview with Sam Altman, the CEO of Open
00:21:00.880
AI, it was very interesting, because a lot of Tucker's questions centered around, well,
00:21:05.840
what is the moral framework that is being sort of implemented into ChatGPT?
00:21:11.400
And Altman did not have a very good answer for this.
00:21:14.080
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Kind of, he floundered, he undernard, and he basically settled on, it's kind of just the
00:22:09.280
moral flamework that was kind of, that I received through osmosis, you know, in the
00:22:15.240
Which is a terrible answer, because if you're creating a tool that is incredibly powerful
00:22:19.860
and which, like, I use it, I think everybody uses it at this point.
00:22:23.700
You know, maybe I just speak to myself, I don't know.
00:22:25.820
But it's incredibly powerful and it's being used in many, many different sectors now for
00:22:30.400
important work, including, by the way, the writing of MPs' speeches in Parliament in
00:22:38.140
But you need to have a good answer to that question.
00:22:40.380
You need to have a good answer to the question of what actually is the moral system that's
00:22:43.860
being implemented into this, you know, this kind of, you know, so-called artificial intelligence.
00:22:49.860
And a similar thing is happening, I think, with this faction of the British right, which
00:22:54.260
is if you actually ask them and try and pin them down on what their moral framework actually
00:22:58.940
is and what their moral paradigm that they're trying to bring into existence actually is,
00:23:05.940
It basically, and maybe this is me strawmanning, I don't know, but I can't see anything other
00:23:09.960
than, well, I like England, I like Britain, it's nice here, my family is from here, and
00:23:17.400
And that's, you know, that's a fairly good answer.
00:23:20.500
You have to ask, well, why is it worth preserving?
00:23:25.580
And what is it that you're kind of striving towards in your political struggle?
00:23:31.620
Because I think, you know, a political or moral system that has merely the nation as
00:23:38.500
its moral center of gravity is, in my view, incredibly, is dubious, morally dubious, because
00:23:45.300
I think at one level, it's better than a moral system that explicitly has just the self as
00:23:51.660
the moral center of gravity that permits just limitless kind of hedonism and pursuit of
00:23:56.300
self-interest and that sort of thing, which I think is very much the culture we have in
00:24:00.180
But a moral system that has the nation as its moral center of gravity and seeks to bring
00:24:05.180
everything else into service of the nation, I think is very risky, actually, because you're
00:24:10.180
not acknowledging the fact that the nation is only good when it serves truth, when it serves
00:24:15.260
the good, and ultimately when it serves the will of God.
00:24:17.720
And again, when you start using religious language, people start getting very uncomfortable and
00:24:23.500
But unless we're prepared to have these conversations, I don't think we're going to win, right?
00:24:28.000
Because the enemies of our civilization in Britain themselves have a totalizing view of the world,
00:24:35.000
whether that's Islam, whether that's kind of atheistic, nihilistic leftism, you know, woke
00:24:40.220
These are ideologies that have answers to every single question.
00:24:43.260
And I'm not necessarily saying that we need to add answers to every single question, but
00:24:47.100
we at least need to do better than, you know, striving for basically fineism, which is a
00:24:52.020
good meme, but it's actually not, in my view, going to get us out of the kind of moral malaise
00:24:58.600
And more to the point, a moral system that does have the nation as its moral center of
00:25:03.660
gravity, not to sound like a kind of boomer, but actually that is going to permit pretty
00:25:08.440
terrible things if you take it to its logical conclusion.
00:25:10.760
Because if something is regarded as being a threat to the nation, then kind of anything
00:25:15.820
is permitted in eliminating that threat, up to and including the indiscriminate murder
00:25:21.400
And I think in a lot of ways, not to, you know, really sort of get into it, but this
00:25:25.400
is what we're seeing right now in real time in Israel, as far as I'm concerned.
00:25:28.480
That, you know, Zionism is a nationalist philosophy that has the nation or the race or whatever
00:25:35.060
Therefore, anything that is perceived as being a threat to that, well, anything is permissible,
00:25:39.560
up to and including the murder of children, which in my view is happening.
00:25:43.240
And I don't want that to ever happen in Britain.
00:25:45.040
I don't want us to ever have a government that thinks that sort of thing is okay.
00:25:48.300
Because we hear a lot about how Britain is being destroyed and how Britain is collapsing
00:25:52.520
But if we were to ever engage in that kind of thing as a people, then the soul of this
00:25:57.500
country would be irreversibly blackened, in my view.
00:26:00.600
Well, if there seems to be this, there's an aversion, there's like a skittishness among
00:26:09.980
They're so afraid to directly link right-wing thought to Christianity.
00:26:17.640
I think it's perhaps people are insecure and they don't want to be perceived as like
00:26:23.620
It's so intrinsic to right-wing thought because it's inherently hierarchical.
00:26:27.360
And that's something that people refuse to admit, because I think partially it's because
00:26:30.300
we grow up in this system of this blank slate theory of this individualism.
00:26:34.200
And that kind of, that's, that's a lot to let go because it feels wrong.
00:26:37.100
It feels wrong to tell someone they can't do something, but that's fundamentally the
00:26:41.060
framework that you have to present to get us out of this mess is you have to be willing
00:26:44.200
to tell people, no, you have to be willing to tell people, Hey, no, this is corrosive to
00:26:50.880
That feels wrong to people that grow up in this liberal system.
00:26:54.000
Um, and perhaps we're seeing these cracks now among Gen Z, uh, because we've grown
00:26:58.640
up in the system failing where I think we're the first generation that's grown up in a
00:27:03.400
We don't know what the system looked like when it was at least like seemingly functioning
00:27:08.160
Therefore we're kind of looking around and shopping other ideologies.
00:27:12.720
So I think, I think the right, uh, in Britain and in America needs to be comfortable linking
00:27:18.940
that the very real true link that there is between Christianity and right-wing thought.
00:27:23.600
Cause if you're not presenting a framework, if you're not offering a framework to the
00:27:27.200
public, you're not, there's nothing for them to buy into.
00:27:30.260
There's nothing for them to be grounded in instead, when you're just taking kind of a
00:27:34.860
liberal framework and then touching it up a little bit and maybe, you know, banning
00:27:38.600
some few like woke things that bother people, that's not enough.
00:27:43.500
It's, it's not something that's going to, you know, preserve people that that's, that's
00:27:47.060
part of the reason zoomers are so attracted to in particular Catholicism, because it provides
00:27:52.540
something that's lasting or provide something that has a groundedness or rootedness, a link
00:28:00.000
Um, so yeah, I, that's, that's what I would say is I just think, yeah, right-wingers like
00:28:08.820
It's God honoring and left-wing thought is inherently humanist.
00:28:11.760
It's inherently, in my opinion, satanic, our guest, uh, that we just finished wrap, finished
00:28:19.680
Great video where he links, uh, leftism to Satan, Satanism.
00:28:22.900
I mean, there's some very disturbing links that are just true and it sounds kitschy.
00:28:26.880
It sounds like something you'd read in a pamphlet that's given to you by a schizophrenic
00:28:32.660
Um, they want to liberate you from every identity that was given to you by God and instead
00:28:38.540
And it's, I don't know how else you would describe that besides satanic voice.
00:28:43.800
Just something that very quickly, I think an idea that we need to be embracing, uh, on
00:28:48.520
the right, which is something I've been thinking about a lot recently is the concept of the
00:28:54.280
This, this distinction between license and liberty, I think is crucial for us because
00:28:58.540
there is an idea that just, well, I mean the whole liberal kind of, um, the, the central
00:29:04.620
principle of liberalism is that self-expression is everywhere and always a good thing.
00:29:08.540
Um, but we need to be, you know, absolutely rejecting that at every turn and actually,
00:29:14.780
If you want to use the Christian language has no, has no rights and should not have any
00:29:19.280
Um, and, and therefore the withdrawal of license by which I mean the outlawing of abortion,
00:29:23.620
the outlawing of gay marriage, um, all of these things, which are fundamentally in conflict
00:29:28.440
with the natural order, the eternal order, the eternal metaphysical principles that govern
00:29:34.800
Uh, and, and this is the thing is, uh, the right right now in Britain is not prepared
00:29:40.960
The, the sort of, um, highest, the, the, the, the radical consciousness of the right
00:29:45.360
in Britain in the mainstream right now basically extends to, you know, ending mass immigration
00:29:52.820
And that's, and again, that's not a compelling like grand meta narrative to drive a political
00:29:58.620
I think, and I think we do need to be thinking bigger in, uh, I was going to add on that the
00:30:04.380
original liberal was the serpent in the garden of Eden because the promise of self-actualization
00:30:09.020
is basically the, the devil's mantra of do as thou wilt or, um, unshackling yourselves
00:30:13.760
from the biological limits imposed upon you by Imago Dei and the duties of the universal
00:30:18.600
moral law to pursue your own hedonistic pursuits.
00:30:21.900
And this is why the original left and right dichotomy was between the hierarchy of the monarchy
00:30:28.320
And so left and right might well be antiquated in the, in the current, uh, uh, sort of boomer
00:30:34.900
conception of politics in our country, Charlie, because, you know, uh, the, the right is just,
00:30:39.540
uh, another, the right is just a means by which the market can level everything down to lowest
00:30:46.600
common denominator, universalist, blank slate, fungible consumer, but actual right-wing politics
00:30:52.280
insofar as it should exist should be hierarchical and based on tradition.
00:30:57.020
Whereas leftism is egalitarian, the great leveling blank slate.
00:31:00.160
Um, as far as why there's a skittishness about forwarding Christian politics, I think you're
00:31:05.360
seeing a little bit of this in the States tape with the attempt to fold, um, a billion Indians
00:31:10.480
and also, uh, Jewish interest groups into the Republican party.
00:31:14.520
It's very conspicuous that Mar-a-Lago just hosted a Hindu Jewish, like joint advocacy group
00:31:23.140
Neither of those faiths built your civilization.
00:31:25.240
They built other countries, which I think their practitioners would probably be happier
00:31:29.160
living there than trying to demographically and culturally terraform the United States.
00:31:33.520
In Britain, there's some of that going on as well.
00:31:36.520
I mean, there's, there's a lot of, uh, Muslim groups in both the Labour party and increasing
00:31:41.340
reform UK, but also never underestimate the extent to which the Conservative party was captured.
00:31:46.820
And this is a really weird phenomenon that nobody talks about by Scottish liberals who
00:31:51.760
are obsessed with being led by minority politicians.
00:31:54.900
Like there are multiple, there's, there's, there's Neil Ferguson, there's, uh, Fraser
00:31:58.820
Nelson, there's Michael Gove, there's Andrew Roberts.
00:32:01.560
And for some reason, there's a kind of Humean skepticism about organized religion in total,
00:32:06.680
um, despite them being ardent Arabists and loving, loving Islam because they think the extent
00:32:11.900
of Arab civilization is calligraphy and like squiggly buildings and minarets, um, rather than
00:32:19.020
But the other part of this is that for some reason, they astroturf minority politicians
00:32:23.600
at, at all stages of their career, whether it's Rishi Sunak, Hindu, Kemi Badnak, Atheist,
00:32:34.000
Like for some reason, there is a complete denial of the host majority being able to practice
00:32:40.380
a politics of their own identity, even when that pre-political we, as Roger Scruton would
00:32:45.080
say, is made incoherent by rapid demographic and cultural change.
00:32:49.800
And so you can't actually talk about policies and infrastructure.
00:32:52.940
Instead, you're re-litigating who is the moral and political constituency who has supremacy
00:32:58.320
But also there's this squeamishness about the ancestral foundational religion that built
00:33:04.880
Meanwhile, we're allowed to practice literally other other religion.
00:33:07.380
And I wanted to segue, if I can, off that point, and I'm sure you guys will have something
00:33:10.860
to say about what I said, but Charlie, you read this, Tate, you might not have.
00:33:15.600
There was a piece in Unheard, um, which is the, the counterpart to the Spectator in the
00:33:20.820
It's meant to be like the center left, like millennial coded version of the Spectator, written by Samuel
00:33:28.860
Um, Samuel Rubenstein, who wrote, is reform going to Christian?
00:33:32.520
And in it, he tries to take, he does the, the op thing we were talking about, Tate before,
00:33:40.260
This time he links James Orr to JD Vance, because James Orr, friend of mine, is in Reform
00:33:50.680
And he, unironically for a party with a gay chairman who's in favor of trans people in
00:33:58.700
He writes, about reform being too Christian, or, strange things are afoot on the religious
00:34:06.140
The self-declared reactionary Catholic Zoomer Connor Tomlinson, who's close to Liz Truss
00:34:09.860
and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and boasts almost 100,000 followers on X, questions whether those adhering
00:34:14.440
to any faith other than Christian, or belonging to any faith besides British, should be allowed
00:34:20.080
Now, if I were to say, is Israel too Jewish, or is the Labour Party too Muslim, or is the Conservative
00:34:29.100
I mean, it is already over in those respective parties.
00:34:31.220
But, for some reason, we're allowed to just completely trash the integral ancestral religion
00:34:39.400
And we're not allowed to say, only Brits should be in British politics.
00:34:43.220
For some reason, we should be this sort of multicultural revolving door with no faith
00:34:47.080
of our own, but every other nation gets to be blood and soil nationalists and theocrats.
00:34:51.000
Yeah, well, it stems back to the point you made regarding the serpent being the original
00:34:57.600
That's very valid, because what did the serpent do?
00:34:59.600
The serpent just asked, I don't know, did God really say that?
00:35:02.640
And that's all liberalism really is, is taking anything that was assigned to you at birth,
00:35:07.640
that was God given to you, and liberalism turns around and says, I don't know, did God
00:35:13.520
You should just ignore that voice in the back of your head telling you, this is wrong,
00:35:17.720
You should just double down on that, and it just breeds misery, and that stems into
00:35:22.340
the modern day, into our political system, where you might say, and you look at the makeup
00:35:28.640
of Britain, it's primarily British, and we're electing these politicians, they're pushing
00:35:33.480
these politicians that aren't, because they're saying, I don't know, is that really necessary?
00:35:37.760
They've got to really make this country British.
00:35:40.460
It's a whole thing, where in America, I think when we have these AstroTurf DEI candidates,
00:35:46.680
these are typically pushed because they're convinced that if you, for example, if you
00:35:51.800
nominate a black person for governor, that you're going to somehow win black votes.
00:35:56.120
I think it's just misguided consulting, versus in Britain, it seems like it's literally just
00:36:03.120
out of almost demonic self-hatred, where it's like penance for being a white Brit.
00:36:10.340
You're denying yourself political access, trying to justify some sort of wrong, some sort of
00:36:19.300
It's really, really bizarre, because in the US, it exists to some degree, especially on
00:36:24.320
the left, but on the right, it just seems like it's just bad political strategy.
00:36:34.480
It's interesting you mentioned political strategy there, Tate, because this was a large feature
00:36:38.460
of the articles that appeared in Unheard and Pimlico Journal, which was basically not to address
00:36:45.040
the truth claims of Christianity, but instead just to look at whether or not they're popular
00:36:51.440
enough to win an election, which, in my view, is a really, really superficial way to look
00:36:55.180
at things, because it's like, you know, I don't think any of us are saying that we want
00:36:59.000
Reform UK to be, like, Bible bashing and campaigning on, you know, making abortion illegal in all
00:37:04.940
cases, and having, like, a crucifix put up on Big Ben and all this sort of stuff.
00:37:12.940
Yeah, but this is the picture, like, the stereotype, the straw man that is presented in these
00:37:19.700
outlets, like, they seem to think that what, Connor, you and I, are advocating for is that
00:37:26.360
kind... is a kind of very American sort of evangelical, preachy form of Christianity, and hey, maybe
00:37:32.340
we are preachy, I don't know, but look, I mean, if we don't have a kind of sense of what is
00:37:39.360
objectively right and wrong and objectively true and objectively beautiful, then we are
00:37:43.780
relativists, and our enemies are relativists, and part of, you know, one of the fundamental
00:37:48.200
problems in Britain today is relativism, because if you talk to a lot of people, and I've experienced
00:37:52.820
this in my own life, perfectly ordinary people who have, you know, a nascent kind of Christian
00:37:57.800
sort of moral sort of instincts, if you want, you know, I've had members of my own family
00:38:04.300
say they don't believe in objective right and wrong.
00:38:08.160
I think there's a lot of reasons for that, but until we have remoralized our people, again,
00:38:12.640
I just don't think we're going to get out of the malaise that we're in, because
00:38:16.500
Tate, you made a really good point there, which is that kind of left-wing liberalism
00:38:20.760
seeks to deconstruct and strip a human being of all of their kind of natural or God-given
00:38:27.060
identities, and this is something that I have been speaking about and thinking about a great
00:38:31.120
deal recently, because the question is, what are those identities, and why do people, especially
00:38:36.260
young people, have such a tough time finding a sense of identity, and therefore go looking
00:38:41.220
in other places like sexuality and race and gender and all these sorts of things to find
00:38:45.840
a sense of identity, and in my view, these identities stem from what are in the Bible
00:38:53.440
You know, you have the marriage as the first covenant between Adam and God, you then have
00:38:57.980
the household between Noah and God, you then have the tribe, which is Abraham, the nation,
00:39:03.000
which is Moses, the kingdom, which is David, and the church, which is Jesus, right?
00:39:07.300
And these covenants reflect the structure of all human civilisations in all times and places,
00:39:14.560
These are unchanging structures that humanity, left to its own devices, will always return
00:39:20.600
But the entire project of modern liberalism, the modern liberal moral paradigm that we suffer
00:39:26.980
under, the entirely expressed purpose of it is to escape all of those structures, is to
00:39:32.680
regard those structures as being essentially prisons, oppressive power structures that are
00:39:38.840
This is especially the case, for example, in marriage, like the feminist view of marriage
00:39:42.880
is that it is a, you know, an oppressive patriarchal power structure whose sole purpose is to prevent
00:39:48.940
women from living their truth and living, you know, living the life that they should be living,
00:39:53.820
which in every case ends up being punching a clock in a corporate office, which is, you know,
00:39:58.820
just such a, it's unbelievable that that lie has been so successful, because one would
00:40:03.180
think it would be self-evident that doing that is not as meaningful as raising a family.
00:40:08.300
But look, I mean, and this is the thing, like, the right needs to be embracing these ideas,
00:40:13.660
We can't just be sort of having liberal assumptions about these things, having liberal assumptions
00:40:19.540
about marriage and about what the household is and about what the nation itself actually
00:40:24.040
is, if we want to win. Because in every case, if we do not have these principles that are rooted
00:40:29.780
in eternal truth, then our enemies are always going to be able to beat us. Because inevitably,
00:40:35.340
if we don't, if we're not rooted in eternal truth, then we're rooted in relativism. And our enemies
00:40:40.480
are rooted in relativism, and they're just going to take it to their logical conclusion where we're
00:40:44.040
not prepared to do that. And so people will see them as being the more authentic offering.
00:40:47.640
That was a... I really like that framing of things as covenants. We haven't discussed
00:40:54.580
that off-air before, but we should be furthering that.
00:40:57.500
It's something I've been thinking about a lot. I mean, it is the answer. It's the right's
00:41:00.920
answer to identity politics. Because where the left says gay, black, you know, disabled,
00:41:07.160
trans, Muslim, we say husband, father, Englishman, Christian, right?
00:41:13.340
And those are, first of all, not self-centered identities. They are identities that require the
00:41:21.400
presence of another human being to make any sense. And they are an endless font of meaning.
00:41:27.620
They're never going to run out, right? Whereas those other ones, those kind of individualistic,
00:41:31.580
hedonistic identities, will eventually, worldly identities even, we could call them,
00:41:37.240
they will eventually run out. And the same is true of the rights version of that, which is basically
00:41:42.420
to be like a banker or like some kind of executive earning a good salary. Like eventually that is
00:41:48.540
going to run dry as a source of meaning. But those, the identities that I listed are never going to
00:41:55.020
run dry. And that's why every single Englishman up until the last five minutes embraced those things
00:42:01.800
as being sources of meaning and truth. And I don't, again, I just can't wrap my head around why
00:42:08.040
this is such a controversial idea. Like these, these...
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00:43:00.740
This is what conservatism is supposed to be, right? What are we trying to conserve if not
00:43:05.620
marriage, if not the household, if not the integrity of the nation, and indeed the kingdom?
00:43:10.360
Because that's something else we forget, is Britain is not just a country. Britain is not
00:43:14.320
just a people. Britain is not indeed just a democracy or an economy. Britain is a kingdom,
00:43:19.760
and that has a very specific meaning. A kingdom is a set of nations united under one ruler,
00:43:24.480
which embodies the essence of that nation. And we, you know, admittedly don't have that right now,
00:43:29.520
but historically that is what we've been. And in turn, again, what is a nation? Well,
00:43:33.720
a nation is a series of tribes united under one law in one land, which is what England,
00:43:39.100
for example, is and has been continuously for a thousand years. And in turn, what are tribes?
00:43:44.420
Well, tribes, a series of households united by blood and by lineage and by ancestry and by language
00:43:50.740
and by religion in the same geographic kind of area. And in turn, what is a household? Well,
00:43:56.060
a household is a man and a woman married before God permanently with children and property.
00:44:02.000
And what is a marriage? Well, as I just said, it's a man and woman united permanently before God.
00:44:06.500
And so what we have here is a comprehensive description of what human civilization is.
00:44:11.860
And in my view, that is our answer to the challenges of the relativistic, materialistic
00:44:17.800
left. And I think just appealing to, you can just do things technocratic, basically,
00:44:27.700
Yeah, well, the idea that you can just press the fix everything switch and it's mass deportations
00:44:33.880
and you return us to a homogenous civilization. I mean, it will fix a lot of logistical problems.
00:44:40.740
It will fix a lot of problems about cultural belonging and crime. But at root, you still
00:44:44.860
need some kind of cultural or spiritual revival, because the question is not just what are we
00:44:49.640
conserving? The question is also what are we reproducing? And this ties back to the abortion
00:44:53.320
conversation. I mean, currently, projections based on 2022, abortion levels. One in every
00:45:01.360
three pregnancies in Britain ends in abortion. So for every hundred live births, there are
00:45:05.620
48 abortions, which is just insane. And I think this actually links up to, this is just
00:45:11.360
one vector of demographic replacement, as well as migration, but also outward migration.
00:45:15.720
And a lot of the analysis about why there are so many young people leaving the UK, why
00:45:21.300
we are the number one nation in the world for brain drain, for millionaires leaving, but
00:45:25.440
also why the figures for people who left Britain got revised up last year from 17,000 to 257,000
00:45:32.780
people leaving to move abroad. Part of the reason is that we aren't reproducing our civilization,
00:45:38.260
not in terms of physical bodies, but also in terms of culture, in terms of those concentric
00:45:42.180
circles of belonging, the ordo amoris that Vance ratioed Rory Stewart with. The alternative
00:45:47.860
to that is, as you've said, the varying flavors of liberalism, where if you don't have any
00:45:52.340
relationships with the people around you, if you don't have any responsibilities to fulfill
00:45:55.400
any moral obligations, if you don't have, as Peterson once compellingly said, that duty
00:46:01.340
out in the future of the day at which you will be judged because you have to give the eulogy
00:46:05.180
at your father's funeral and be the shoulder on which your female relatives can cry, if that's
00:46:09.620
not a realistic prospect for you. The only relationship you have is with the state. And so you end
00:46:13.700
up getting the left-coded or the right-coded versions of liberalism, where the left-coded
00:46:18.060
version of liberalism is like what John Gray wrote in New Statesman this week, where he's
00:46:22.540
literally like, I'm not a post-liberal. In fact, Leviathan is the only thing that can
00:46:26.960
stop the all-out war of all-against-all between ethnic and religious tribes in our country,
00:46:31.480
because he said folks like Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farrow getting close to power was unfathomable,
00:46:36.240
so literally we can't deport all these people, we're stuck here forever, so we have to become,
00:46:39.420
a low-trust surveillance state to enforce one way of life on everyone. And what the
00:46:44.800
right-wing liberals don't understand in the same way as the left-wing liberals don't understand
00:46:48.100
is that all those conceptions of liberal egalitarianism, you know, just doing things,
00:46:53.620
a state that is kind of omnicompetent to keep the peace, rests on a shared set of cultural
00:46:59.060
assumptions that you aren't reproducing because they're fundamentally Christian at root. And all
00:47:03.500
the people you've imported into your civilization who are having kids at much higher rates, like
00:47:07.180
a third of all births now are to immigrant mothers. Don't share those assumptions. And
00:47:11.360
so you won't get Leviathan, you'll get like Liberia or Lebanon or Lahore sooner than you
00:47:16.000
will this omnicompetent state. So it's not just a failed enterprise. Ultimately, it's because
00:47:21.080
you've abandoned Christianity, you're not giving people a sense of belonging in which to have
00:47:25.340
and raise children in, they're not staying in the country. And so all those people that
00:47:29.300
you've, you've, you're relying on to do this right-wing revival, they don't have the principles
00:47:33.100
and they don't have the personnel to do it. And the-
00:47:39.600
Well, this, this I think is what is so revealing about the name Reform UK. Because what that
00:47:45.360
says, first of all, is that you conceive of this country in the same way that the Blairites
00:47:49.900
did, which is as the UK, which is a very recent name for this particular polity. And what you're
00:47:58.080
seeking to do is not overturn that order, which has been the source of so many of the ills
00:48:04.100
that particularly young people suffer from in this country, whether that is demographic
00:48:08.300
replacement and the prospect of the white British population becoming an ethnic minority in this
00:48:12.880
country in less than 50 years, whether that is the cost of housing, whether that is the rate
00:48:17.420
of tax, all of these sorts of things. You're not seeking to tear down that order. You're seeking
00:48:21.920
to reform it. You're seeking to reform the UK, as it were. And that, I don't think, is what
00:48:27.460
any of us actually want. Like, none of us actually want this order. None of us believe
00:48:30.920
that this, that this way of doing things is fundamentally right, but that our current leaders
00:48:35.200
are just getting it wrong. It's like real UK has never been tried, if you want. But that
00:48:40.800
kind of is what the reform, the people in their orbit, like Samuel Rubenstein, like Pimlico
00:48:46.640
Journal, are kind of seeking to do. Like, they agree on the basic, on the fundamentals of
00:48:51.660
this political project. They just think that it's being executed badly. And, and so that's
00:48:56.780
why they are, I think, hostile to our ideas, which are basically to, if you want, restore
00:49:01.140
Britain, which is why we called our organization that. It's like, like, Britain is a far thicker,
00:49:05.980
older conception of this land, which is not as a kind of economic zone UK PLC, but actually,
00:49:12.620
as I was saying before, as a kingdom, which is a far deeper thing, in my view. And so, you
00:49:19.000
know, again, I, I just, I think it's likely that reform are going to win the 2029 election.
00:49:25.100
But until they are ready to confront these issues, I don't think that they are going to
00:49:29.300
save the country. Because again, the useful thing about the conceptual framework that I
00:49:33.020
have laid out is that you can look at the problems that we face as a country, as a nation,
00:49:38.200
as a kingdom, and you can almost plug them into that framework and understand what it is that
00:49:43.120
they're attacking. Because it's like, yes, everybody agrees that demographic replacement,
00:49:46.760
mass immigration, legal and illegal, is the, is the most pressing issue of our time,
00:49:50.620
because it is the most consequential, most tangible, most visible symptom, if you want,
00:49:57.160
of the sickness that currently afflicts our society. But what it is an attack on is the
00:50:01.720
nation. What mass immigration is an attack on is the nation. But actually, there are attacks on all
00:50:06.340
of the other covenant structures at the same time. Marriage, for example, has been entirely undermined
00:50:11.340
in this country by no-fault divorce, by gay marriage, by frankly, the prevalence of pornography
00:50:16.080
and contraception, which make a kind of product of the marital act, which should be fruitful and
00:50:21.120
productive, and rooted in love, instead of essentially self-gratification. The household,
00:50:26.480
likewise, has been undermined, because nobody can actually own their own property. Everyone is a
00:50:31.560
perpetual renter, whether that's from a landlord or from a bank. And as I say, it's very difficult for
00:50:37.640
people to raise children in this country that are actually their own children, because the state
00:50:42.280
makes such an effort to indoctrinate them using the public education system. And again, the tribe,
00:50:47.580
I think this is perhaps the most controversial, but the concept of racism, like the actual concept of
00:50:52.320
racism and its analog anti-racism, tell you that the mere recognition of tribal identity, by which I
00:51:00.240
mean in the modern sort of vernacular, ethnicity, essentially, merely to recognize that and to express any
00:51:06.460
degree of preference for one's own tribe, it's evil. It's like the greatest moral sin that one can
00:51:12.640
commit under liberalism. And I could go on, I mean, like the kingdom, for example, well, it's liberal
00:51:17.480
democracy. Liberal democracy undermines the integrity of the kingdom, because it does not raise up leaders
00:51:21.700
who embody the essence of the nation, but instead raises up the people who can lie most effectively
00:51:25.600
to the public, and who are prepared to take the most money from moneyed interests, so they can run for
00:51:29.500
office. And I realize this sounds like a really, like, cynical view of this country, and I don't like to come
00:51:33.640
down on Britain too much, because I think this is still, despite everything, a great place to live.
00:51:38.960
And I'm never going to leave, Connor, as I know you agree. But my goodness, like, what a state we're
00:51:44.440
in. And once again, until, in my view, we are prepared to confront the totality of the sickness
00:51:50.160
that afflicts this country, we're not going to rescue it from, you know, from hell, right? And if
00:51:56.180
we're just focusing on demographics, if we're just focusing on kick out all the immigrants, and then
00:51:59.860
everything will be fine, if that is our political project, then we are going to lose.
00:52:03.640
Like, we need to have a better answer than that.
00:52:06.000
Yeah, well, if you haven't conceptualized your own framework, because what happens is people will
00:52:11.080
point out, like, part of this, you know, this coalition that the left has built, and they see
00:52:15.920
how they're competing for, you know, they have, would, in theory, have competing interests, and people
00:52:20.620
sit there and scratch their heads, like, what do they even have in common? Like, what is a gay person?
00:52:24.360
Why is a gay person lining and linking arms with, like, a Muslim? Like, why is it even happening?
00:52:28.500
And it's like, because if you haven't developed that actual Christian right-wing framework,
00:52:32.140
you don't really understand what those people have in common, what goal those people have
00:52:36.600
in common. But, Charlie, with the framework you've outlined, it makes perfect sense what
00:52:40.680
they're trying to do. It makes perfect sense why they actually would see more in common
00:52:43.900
with each other than, like, I don't know, this liberal system that, you know, these older
00:52:48.540
folks are still trying to keep alive. It's so brutal.
00:52:50.980
If I may, if I can add to that, there is one thing that you need to look at to understand
00:52:55.280
this, and that is the Progress Pride flag. Because the Progress Pride flag, this is the
00:53:02.040
Yeah, I know, right? With the sort of the black and brown and trans chevrons on it.
00:53:06.800
They added the Resident Evil umbrella symbol to represent sex workers at some point.
00:53:11.560
Yeah, that was the red orifice in the middle of it.
00:53:14.180
Yeah. But that is the flag of what you are describing, Tate, which is a coalition of groups
00:53:20.740
and individuals which stand opposed to marriage and to the household and to the tribe, the
00:53:26.160
nation, the kingdom, and the church. That is what they are uniting around. And, you know,
00:53:30.820
and I think that once again, once you conceive of it in that way, there is no reason to permit
00:53:36.760
that. Like, and I had a debate at the Battle of Ideas, which is a very liberal kind of quasi-communist
00:53:42.600
event that happens in this country every year, Tate. I was invited to debate a chap called
00:53:47.400
Albie Amancona, who is a conservative, he calls himself, but he is also the head of
00:53:52.700
the LGBT Tories and also the Tories, what is it, Conservatives Against Racism?
00:54:00.160
I don't dislike Albie as a person. I had a very pleasant interaction with him. But I said
00:54:06.860
in that debate that, because it was a debate about free speech, and I'm personally very,
00:54:10.380
you know, I believe in free speech very strongly. However, I caveat that by saying I'm not entirely
00:54:15.760
convinced. I'm sceptical of the idea that free speech is everywhere and always, or debate
00:54:20.220
perhaps is everywhere and always, a truth-seeking exercise. Because I think that people believe
00:54:24.600
things for all sorts of reasons. I think people believe things for reasons of pride and for
00:54:28.860
reasons of kind of, you know, it serves their interest. Because like, you know, the people
00:54:32.280
that subscribe to woke, you know, kind of gender ideology, if you want, as an example,
00:54:37.620
like, I don't think they believe in that stuff because they believe it's true. I think they
00:54:40.620
believe in it because it serves their own lifestyle and their own appetites, frankly.
00:54:44.400
And so you're not going to argue those people out of that position because they weren't argued
00:54:47.500
into it in the first place. So the idea that limitless, like, endless debate is everywhere
00:54:51.260
and always the most effective way of, you know, locating, you know, like, identifying the truth
00:54:55.920
and getting further, closer to the truth, I don't think is necessarily true. But in that debate,
00:55:00.460
I made the case that the progress pride flag should be banned. It should be illegal to fly the
00:55:05.520
progress pride flag in state buildings and indeed in private buildings. Yeah, I do not believe,
00:55:11.120
like, if, you know, in the privacy of your own home, I think that it's fine because I think that is,
00:55:15.920
that would be an overreach to say that you can't fly in the privacy of your own home. But think of the
00:55:19.860
things that have been done in the name of that flag. Seriously, think of the mutilation of misguided
00:55:25.340
teenagers, Connor, as you have spoken about recently. Think of, I mean, I would go as far as to say
00:55:29.880
as, you know, even like the killing of Charlie Cook, right, was done in the name of that flag.
00:55:35.620
The terrible, terrible, and like the covering up of the grooming gangs was done in the name of that flag.
00:55:40.200
Mass immigration has been done in the name of that flag. But this is a flag that represents
00:55:44.440
everything that stands against truth, everything that stands against beauty and order
00:55:48.020
and goodness, like fundamental moral decency, right? And so I don't see a reason that you should
00:55:54.320
permit an ideology like that, that is civilizational poison, civilizational acid to be kind of
00:56:00.340
proliferated in your society. There's no good argument. And if your argument is, well, free
00:56:04.160
speech, I will say, well, I just, I just don't agree with that. You know?
00:56:08.700
Yeah. I feel like abortion really is the crown jewel of that ideology. That's why when they're,
00:56:14.760
at least in stateside, when there's any sort of threats to put some sort of restriction on abortion,
00:56:19.540
nothing turns out the left quite like the Republicans proposing some sort of abortion
00:56:24.440
restriction because fundamentally abortion really is, like I said, the crown jewel of that ideology,
00:56:29.140
because you are saying we have this system, liberal democracy and a child, a gift from God is an
00:56:35.820
impediment on your ability to participate in the system as effectively as possible. Therefore you
00:56:41.020
must sacrifice your child on the altar of liberal democracy. It is harrowing. It is harrowing.
00:56:47.480
And that's why I think the pro-life movement, at least in the United States, that's why it's
00:56:52.180
received perhaps the most vitriol from the left out of all the things that, you know, the right
00:56:57.520
wing in America is proposing, even immigration restriction, which, you know, it's probably the
00:57:01.280
second most sort of abrasive position that the right holds in the United States. Abortion is what
00:57:08.380
really turns out the left, because I think they know fundamentally deep down inside that that kind of
00:57:14.180
is the ultimate test. That's probably the furthest you can push a human being. I would say even more
00:57:18.880
so than trans transgenderism. I mean, and that's involving self mutilation, these sorts of things.
00:57:23.280
Abortion is the furthest you can push a human being in service to liberal democracy. You're literally
00:57:30.760
telling a mother to kill her offspring in service to this world order. It's absolutely, absolutely
00:57:37.700
nightmarish. Yeah. And this is the thing, Tate, is there really is, you know, very limited mainstream
00:57:43.220
public discourse about the topic of abortion in this country, because I think a lot of people
00:57:47.000
don't think about it a lot. It's regarded as being a debate that's kind of done. It's not something that
00:57:52.620
we talk about in this country. And I think that is largely because of what we were talking about
00:57:56.820
before, which is that there's very little in the way of public appetite for conversations
00:58:01.680
around deeper issues about what life is about, about what a human life is and is not, what is
00:58:10.380
right and wrong, basically. And I think that, you know, the unwillingness to confront those issues is
00:58:15.620
largely born out of a culture that does have the self as its moral center of gravity. Because what
00:58:21.160
greater expression, as you say, Tate, what greater expression of a self-centered culture could there
00:58:27.840
possibly be than a mother, frankly, murdering her own child in the name of her own comfort and her
00:58:35.160
own, you know, her own career, for example. And look, I think that we are so deep into this that,
00:58:42.620
like you say, I've spoken to people in my own life who are not particularly political, but they are
00:58:47.540
pro-choice because it is, it's held up as an article of faith in this kind of liberal moral paradigm.
00:58:53.800
But even in the most extreme cases, the like kind of limit cases, like, for example, a situation where
00:59:00.560
someone has been raped or something horrible like that, right? I, for a long time, you know, I did
00:59:08.260
basically think, well, look, I'm against abortion in most cases, but if that was to happen to a member
00:59:11.380
of my family, would I want them to keep that baby? Well, probably not. But actually what I realize now is
00:59:16.680
that that, you know, regardless of how noble that might sound, you still are operating from a moral
00:59:22.180
framework that has the individual as its moral center of gravity. And in my view, any moral
00:59:28.580
paradigm that has that is fundamentally against the will of God, because you are placing yourself
00:59:33.920
into the position, into the station of God. And I think that any civilization that embraces that
00:59:41.120
en masse is ultimately destined for destruction. And that is kind of, that's kind of where Britain is.
00:59:45.460
Yeah, I agree. My political position has long been, don't attribute intergenerational guilt to the
00:59:51.340
unborn child that should lie with the predatory father. And so, uh, sex offending father don't
00:59:57.520
kill the child. You know, that, that, that should be a pretty good moral calculation. But abortion has
01:00:02.420
become this liberal sacrament because it is the, Mary Aronson's written about this before, it is the
01:00:08.980
most visceral possible expression of individual autonomy to say that my adult appetites come at the
01:00:16.480
expense of the sanctity of life for an innocent unborn human being. And this was actually expressed
01:00:22.520
in a very personal way with, so I, I'll, I'll keep the identity of this person anonymous, but someone
01:00:29.280
who was a longtime friend of my wife who found out what I did when they stumbled upon me in a video that
01:00:37.620
was criticizing me as one of these far right pronatalists saying that, you know, people who want to have
01:00:43.360
kids should have more kids. Maybe it might be a better solution. Yeah. A bit better solution than,
01:00:48.240
you know, battery farming Africans till the heat death of the universe to pay boomer pensions,
01:00:52.220
heaven forbid. And he came to me to basically interrogate me on all of my, my evil right-wing
01:00:58.100
beliefs. And one of the things that he felt strongly about was abortion, but it wasn't out of this
01:01:03.120
principle because I just kept Socratically questioning whether or not he would feel uncomfortable
01:01:07.200
where, what, what his standard for the sanctity of life was, how he can support human rights for
01:01:12.280
foreign human beings, but then arbitrarily argued that a baby is not a human being. And it boiled
01:01:17.280
down to two things. One, he wanted to use abortion in his own personal circumstances, even though he
01:01:24.960
would feel uncomfortable doing it just in case he, you know, wasn't ready to be a father yet, or there
01:01:29.260
was some genetic defect that was unforeseeable and would make his life inconvenient, therefore
01:01:33.860
instrumentalizing the worth of a, another human being to what's convenient for him, his personal
01:01:38.660
is actually eugenics. Like, this is just, it's just eugenics.
01:01:41.860
Yeah, exactly. Which is why there's, we're battling over whether or not we're practicing
01:01:46.740
dysgenic liberalism or eugenic liberalism with the right and left. But then the other argument
01:01:50.200
that he had was he just defaulted to NPC talking points because when, when I hit up against that
01:01:54.720
moral brick wall, he just started saying, well, it's just a, it's just a zygote and, uh, and
01:01:59.980
fetuses don't have consciousness. And it was like these wrote, learned Reddit talking points.
01:02:03.540
And so what you have to realize is, going back to what you were saying, Charlie, debate
01:02:07.040
is itself not always the instrument to realize these tools because lots of people aren't
01:02:12.760
conscious and lots of people aren't engaging in good faith interlocution. Instead, they're
01:02:17.280
just trying to serve their own basist appetites. And those basist appetites present a temptation
01:02:23.540
that means that if they're not serving God, their wife, their community, their congregation,
01:02:29.260
their country, instead they are serving something else. And it's an entity that usually turns
01:02:33.580
us against our own nature, which could, even if you want to take it as a metaphor, be
01:02:37.980
described as demonic. And so even though this will get us accused of illiberalism and being
01:02:42.460
post-liberals and Christian nationalists, I just think we need to take these issues off
01:02:45.660
the table. And I'm not going to be subject, I'm not going to subject my moral positions to
01:02:50.640
a popularity contest or sort of like a mean girl disapproval from the pages of even the
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...of Pimlico Journal and concede this issue, I'm afraid.
01:03:51.720
Yeah, agreed. Agreed. I mean, that's the thing, Christian nationalism is not even a label I would
01:03:56.760
embrace. I'm just, I'm just a Christian. Like, that's kind of where my political positions
01:04:01.720
begin and end. That's what it's informed by. And again, it kind of blows my mind that that's so
01:04:07.960
Yeah. I'm a Christian that happens to be a nationalist. It's a...
01:04:12.440
...no need to join them. Well, fellas, this has been a great chat. I guess we'll wind down here. We're
01:04:17.480
kind of running out of time. But Charlie, you got any closing thoughts on where people can find you for
01:04:21.640
more? Sure. Yeah. Well, thanks very much for having me. You guys, it's been a real pleasure. Good,
01:04:25.800
good chat. I would encourage everybody to check up Restore Britain, which is the organization that
01:04:30.920
I work for. You can join if you are somebody who is concerned about the future of Britain
01:04:35.400
as a member for £20 a year. And I would encourage everybody to do so. Check out our new podcast.
01:04:40.280
As I said, that's with myself, Lewis Brackpool, who is our director of investigations, a very,
01:04:44.680
very good journalist in Britain. And Rupert Lowe, who is, as I said, our leader and a current
01:04:49.480
member of parliament. You can find my work on my X page at cfdowns with an underscore at the end.
01:04:56.520
As I said, I write for the Daily Mail. You can read some of my work on there. And yeah,
01:05:01.720
thanks very much for having me, guys. Yes, sir. Connor, what about you?
01:05:05.400
Pleasure. Yeah. Keep an eye on Restore Britain in the new year, because it's a citadel of enterprising
01:05:10.840
young talent in Britain. And I'm sure there might be new faces popping up. Whoever knows. You can find
01:05:16.920
my work at con underscore Tomlinson on X. You can find me at Connor Tomlinson on YouTube or on
01:05:21.880
Substack. And you can read my writing over at Courage Media. And thank you yet again for tuning
01:05:26.600
into our weekly show. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, let's get Britain restored, fellas. You guys are
01:05:32.760
like doing, you're active in it. You know, we're trying to restore America. We don't really use
01:05:36.680
restore. It's almost too fancy, but we're just making America great again.
01:05:40.120
It's a little easier to restore, I would say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we'll be back this week
01:05:47.080
with, well, kind of. We're here Monday, Tuesday. It's Thanksgiving week. It means nothing to my
01:05:52.120
English friends. It just sounds like some yank nonsense. But it's Thanksgiving. It's where we
01:05:55.880
celebrate the Indians giving us all the land for free. It was very nice of them. So we're going to
01:05:59.960
be celebrating eating turkey. Enjoy the turkey with your family. Turkey is the American food. I don't
01:06:05.160
want to see any ham nonsense. That can be a side dish, but it's all turkey all the time. You can
01:06:10.040
find me on Instagram at Real Tate Brown. And we'll have a special Thanksgiving edition going up
01:06:14.760
later this week with the John Doyle. So be on the lookout for that. With that,
01:06:18.760
thank you very much for watching. We'll see you guys next time.