In the wake of the Carmelo Anthony's acquittal in the murder of Austin Metcalfe, a group of pro-Carmelo supporters have come out in droves to support the former NBA All-Star and current Los Angeles Lakers forward.
00:20:32.600But all those statements would be used in court.
00:20:35.000And the only way to address that is in voir dire, is in jury selection.
00:20:39.120And when the jurors are instructed, the judge will instruct the jurors who are only allowed to come to a verdict based on the evidence, the testimony, the law you get in the—I know, I know, I know.
00:20:49.860And we also live in a world where there are no—you know, the jury's supposed to come in like a blank sheet of paper, knowing nothing about the case at all.
00:20:59.360And in the past, you could get away with that.
00:21:01.500But today, especially with any high-profile case, there is no juror who's not been exposed.
00:21:06.500We get into this a lot when defendants want a change in venue.
00:21:10.940They want the trial held in a different city or something.
00:21:13.240And invariably, the judges look at them and say, where in this state—this happened with Derek Chauvin—where in this state do you think you could hold this trial that doesn't have the same level of exposure?
00:21:29.980When the—so for those who are not familiar, when the judge said that, there is no venue in this state where you will be free from this, you know, prejudice.
00:21:55.520Would it make sense—I already have a general idea of what people are going to say to this, but would it make sense to change venue to a different state?
00:25:01.720So, it varies a lot by states because different states have different rules about how much they can reduce it before you're eligible for parole.
00:25:17.440Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist, and I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.
00:25:27.520Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.
00:28:18.400That's what I mean, my only and this kind of shifts the direction a little bit.
00:28:24.240But I think when we look at the campaign and the amount of money that it's raised, what we've seen with campaigns like this is that they are driven by media sensationalism.
00:28:34.280And so I wouldn't have expected a campaign to this campaign in that fact base level thing to raise nearly this type of money.
00:28:45.900It's because of the outrage on the other side, particularly on the right, that I think is fueling this.
00:28:52.180I think these donations is being fueled by people that are saying, look at what they're saying, what the right is saying in these scenarios where they allowed campaigns for Derek Chauvin and all these other people.
00:29:02.720It was the same thing that drove Daniel Penny's.
00:29:05.160The amount of money Daniel Penny raised, three point whatever million, was because the mainstream media immediately created a black and white narrative and ran with it.
00:29:36.200Well, unfortunately for Anthony, the version of imperfect self-defense that Texas recognizes is different than the rest of the country.
00:29:44.920The rest of the country and what imperfect self-defense does is if you're convicted of murder, it mitigates the murder down to manslaughter.
00:29:51.380So instead of looking at life, you're looking at 20.
00:29:53.820Maybe you get out in seven, eight years.
00:29:59.520Manslaughter sucks, but it's a lot better than a murder conviction.
00:30:02.900And in most states, how imperfect self-defense works is you had a genuine fear of deadly force harm from somebody and you killed them in self-defense.
00:30:11.680But your fear was objectively unreasonable.
00:30:14.680It was kind of a panic reaction, for example.
00:30:16.840That can't qualify as perfect self-defense and get you an acquittal because perfect self-defense has to be reasonable, but it can mitigate murder down to manslaughter.
00:30:26.400So let's say there's like an old white guy and he's like seriously like 75.
00:30:32.200I think we just had a case like this where an old white guy, a young black gentleman came up to his door.
00:30:38.720He got into a car accident and he jogged up to the door to ask for help and he was injured and the old man feared this, panicked, think he was going to be robbed or whatever and shot the guy.
00:31:38.720But that would be a classic case where the jury could believe, all right, this old guy, he legitimately had a fear of death from this young black man trying to get into his house, apparently.
00:31:47.620But that fear was objectively unreasonable.
00:31:49.720He should not, a hypothetical, reasonable and prudent person would not have had that fear.
00:31:54.840Do y'all have any fears that with the selective release of information, the right could be being misled on what happened with the Carmelo Anthony case?
00:32:05.800Everybody's misled in all these cases.
00:32:07.780It's disinformation all day, especially from the media.
00:32:10.880Everything the media says about any of these high-profile cases has to be presumed to be misinformation, to be false, to be lies, until proven otherwise.
00:32:20.820The only thing that counts is the actual evidence, not how it's recounted or how someone describes it, the actual evidence.
00:32:27.420So my concern is the adamant nature on the right that this is as we believe it to be.
00:32:35.580My fear is you've got 33 witnesses who have not given statements or have, and we don't know what those statements are.
00:32:42.060What if 15 of those tell a completely different story and say that Carmelo tried fleeing and, you know, something like that?
00:32:50.400I really doubt that's the case, considering the two witnesses that are presented in this.
00:32:54.400But I do have a concern at the right is assuming that the—I believe it was—it's two—there's two witnesses that gave versions of the events that are available in this police report out of 35.
00:33:21.800I'm suspicious of that weight number for Carmelo Anthony because I think it was from an outdated ID, and teenagers grow a lot, you know, over a short period of time.
00:33:30.360But say there was a real disparity of size and strength, and Austin Metcalfe grabbed him and then said, I'm going to beat you to death.
00:33:37.740Well, that's a different scenario then.
00:33:39.400Then there may be a reasonably perceived eminent threat of deadly force harm, because deadly force harm doesn't just mean force that can kill you.
00:33:46.100It means force that can cause you serious bodily injury, a maiming type of injury, a broken bone.
00:33:50.780That would justify the use of deadly defensive force.
00:33:53.540The trouble is we don't have any evidence like that yet.
00:33:57.040And Carmelo Anthony himself, he says things to the police, and he does not say anything like that.
00:34:02.900He doesn't say he was in fear for his life.
00:34:04.680He doesn't say—recite any facts that would reasonably be perceived as a deadly force threat from Austin Metcalfe.
00:34:10.860I think the quote from Officer Eduardo was—
00:50:43.580Oh, I think the victims of crimes are screwed over monumentally, especially in the state of New York.
00:50:49.360I think – and to clarify my bigger picture on this, I overwhelmingly view – I think – and the libertarians are going to cry over this one.
00:50:56.020I think the cops get screwed over more often than the cops screw people over.
00:51:53.120And I had never received notice of a suspended license.
00:51:55.540It had only just been suspended, and it had been suspended because I wrongfully received two fake tickets from cops because of quota systems.
00:52:02.440So for me, this is what creates the prejudice.
00:52:06.040That cop who pulled me over, I will criticize for the wrongful arrest.
00:52:12.160But I was driving on a suspended license.
00:52:14.200So the process after that, the machine of the state, they have no idea what's going on.
00:52:46.820There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say,
00:52:52.200thank you for telling me I'm not crazy.
00:52:55.160But I don't really doubt my own sanity.
00:52:57.500I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.
00:53:05.420I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.
00:53:12.300The Gist is for people who know that being interesting starts with being interested.
00:53:18.260Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.
00:53:22.180Back in the 80s, Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avery were budding filmmakers working together at a hip Los Angeles video store called Video Archives.
00:53:30.940We didn't have a cash register for four years.
00:53:33.600Now, they're reuniting to watch the original tapes from the Video Archives collection, films like Dark Star, Moonraker, and many more.
00:53:43.620The Video Archives podcast is out now.
00:53:46.060Find us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:53:49.640Some states are weird like that because the plate technically isn't your property.
00:53:54.360It's on loan from the state, so you can run it.
00:53:56.660And then you have like that gray area where it's your vehicle.
00:53:59.500I can assume that you're the one operating it.
00:56:02.160What if the woman immediately goes, I'm sorry, officer, I'm not sure, but I just want to make sure you're aware that I do have my gun on me and I do have my permit.
00:56:20.680Well, that comes down to officer discretion.
00:56:21.960And I've had similar scenarios where it's, believe it or not, young black men that are carrying with an out-of-state permit that's not recognized in New York.
00:56:28.860And I've told them, all right, I'm going to take your firearm off of you.
00:56:32.640I want you to step outside the car, keep your hands where I can see them.
00:56:53.420Hopefully, if it could be any other cop in my city or the state of New York, if they determine that they're not so big on the Second Amendment like I am, they could arrest you and it would be a felony for unlawfully carrying a firearm, concealed carry, with intent to use because it's loaded.
00:57:09.420And then what I do in that scenario is I give them back their—if I give them tickets, I give them tickets.
00:57:13.680But when I return their firearm to them, I have them stay either on their front bumper or their back bumper, and I put their firearm unloaded, magazine unloaded as well.
00:57:23.360So, like, even if you wanted to try and shoot me in a sneak attack, you'd have to load the magazine or put one bullet in, you know, in the slot and then—or in the barrel and then pop one round off at me.
00:57:40.940So the reason I bring that up is because there was this—there's this famous story in Jersey where, like, a 60-some-odd-year-old woman was going to Atlantic City, and in PA, she's got a concealed carry permit, and she had, like, a revolver of some kind.
00:57:53.100She gets pulled over for some minor infraction, and then first thing she says was, I just want to make sure you're aware, I do have my gun on me and my concealed carry permit.
00:58:01.560He arrested her, and she got charged with a felony, and she was facing four years in prison.
00:58:05.520A young nurse, actually, I believe it was.
00:58:07.840Just a couple miles over the border into New Jersey.
00:58:10.180And, like, what's the point of those arrests?
00:58:13.260Like, we're all supposed to be mindless robots, and, like, there's no gray area when it comes to the law?
00:58:17.460We've got to screw over the 60-year-old woman or the person with the job?
00:58:21.300But this is the challenge because when you look at—so let's shift, like, to the Ahmaud Arbery case, which I adamantly believe that all of those men involved should be freed and apologized to and receive some compensation.
00:58:33.420Travis and Gregory McMichael as well as William Roddy Bryan.
00:58:36.960What was the point of everything they did?
00:58:41.020If you look at the big picture on the Ahmaud Arbery case, for those that are not familiar, it's where the left claimed a guy was jogging and was lynched.
00:58:47.220The real story is—and feel free to add more details—
00:58:50.880A guy who was a suspect in felony burglary was pursued and got into a fight with his pursuants, and one of them, during a scuffle over a shotgun, shot him, I believe, twice with a shotgun.
00:59:01.300And all three—one guy—so it's the McMichaels and Bryan.
00:59:05.520The Bryan guy wasn't with the McMichaels and was filming, and the McMichaels flanked in front of him and were standing outside their truck waiting for him.
00:59:12.860And this, in my view, was like a huge travesty of justice.
00:59:17.100You know, you see these cases, and you're like, why did these guys get arrested?
00:59:25.780So I don't know if you wanted to elaborate before we move on into the bigger picture on that regard, on the Ahmaud Arbery case or, like, what your views are.
01:00:56.540We talked to the police, and they advised us to hang a plastic chain across the driveway, because now it's a misdemeanor burglary if they walk past it.
01:01:18.840And there's a legal doctrine called the doctrine of lenity, meaning if there's ambiguity in the statute, it's to be interpreted in favor of the defendant, not in favor of the state.
01:01:32.360And so, to the extent there was ambiguity in the citizen's arrest statute, the judge should have told the jury they're obliged to interpret the statute favorably to the defendant under the doctrine of lenity.
01:01:44.240Instead, and the defense asked the judge to do that.
01:01:46.700And the judge said, no, I'm just going to let the jury decide what the statute means.
01:02:00.480And when the judge didn't do that, the judge didn't do his job.
01:02:03.600And if you're asking a jury of laypeople to do a legal interpretation of a 150-year-old statute, that cannot be justice.
01:02:12.140Now, maybe if the judge had given the correct instruction, they would have gotten convicted anyway.
01:02:17.500But because he didn't, I cannot have any confidence that those convictions are legitimate.
01:02:22.760And by the way, when we think of the criminal justice system, and feel free to disagree if you like, detective, but we have to keep in mind, look at those three words.
01:02:49.580The Georgia, the Georgia citizens arrest law.
01:02:53.280A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.
01:02:59.440If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
01:03:07.500And so the issue at hand was, is this a single declaration of what you must do or two separate?
01:03:15.040So what the defense, what the prosecutors argued is, a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed within his presence or within his immediate knowledge.
01:03:23.620If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, they may arrest him on probable grounds of suspicion only if it happened in their presence or with their knowledge, immediate knowledge.
01:03:51.560And I think any reasonable person knows the first sentence and the second sentence are separate.
01:03:58.040You may arrest an offender if they've committed, if the offender, okay, a person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence with his immediate knowledge.
01:04:06.740However, comma, if the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping, both, right?
01:04:14.260And the reason that makes sense is if you're standing in a shopping mall and a guy runs past you with a gun running full speed and then you hear someone yell like, oh, my God, he's been shot.
01:04:39.180And the judge could have picked one or he could have picked the other.
01:04:41.600And that would have been within his privilege to do that.
01:04:43.400And then that could have been appealed.
01:04:44.600But instead of doing his job and drawing a line in the sand and picking one or the other and telling the jury what the law meant, he just let the jury decide what the law meant.
01:09:37.340Like, how do you handle that situation?
01:09:38.480You got to rely heavily on your, the lieutenant that's in charge of the shift.
01:09:43.040This is Esther, host of Once Upon a Crime.
01:09:46.000If you're fascinated by true crime and want a podcast that gives you the inside scoop on some of the world's most cold-blooded true crime cases,
01:09:55.340Each week I cover a new case and give you the why behind the stories you hear in the news.
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01:10:16.320You're a sergeant, whatever, and you have to dictate a lot of, or not dictate, what's it called, where you're like the head, disperse.
01:10:40.880You know, if I wanted to read, I would have joined the Air Force.
01:10:43.680So when you're, you really have to focus on delegation.
01:10:47.500And the other thing that you have to do is immediately you have to know who the witnesses are and where they are and separate them.
01:10:52.000The importance of separating a witness is key because what you don't want is you don't want one witness talking to another witness and then changing their individual point of view.
01:11:00.000Because even if you say, well, Tim stabbed him and Tim was wearing a brown beanie.
01:11:05.760And somebody goes, well, he was wearing a black beanie.
01:11:19.220So the important thing is you always want to separate your witnesses so that way you can get a clear, non-diluted picture of what they saw without any sort of other interpretation or something being thrown in there.
01:11:32.900Yeah, we call it witness contamination because the witnesses, when they get to court, you want them testifying from their own personal knowledge of what happened.
01:11:40.180But if you leave them in a group and people are talking to each other, they're contaminating each other's recollections.
01:11:45.120And it's impossible for a witness to later on.
01:12:41.760Now, once those officers view it and there is evidence, whether it be photo or video, that has to then be collected.
01:12:47.700So, Tim, you come up to me, I've got video, sweet, I'm going to have to hold on to your phone for a minute until I can talk to a detective or one of our evidence collection team members, and then they're going to pull that video from your phone, get your information from it.
01:13:10.140I mean, for a lot of people, you can't do that.
01:13:13.000Like, it's hard enough to transfer to a new phone, but if you don't have your old one, you will lose a lot of important information, images.
01:13:25.860That being said, like, we use, in my department, we use Axon.
01:13:30.100So, I can literally send you a text message from my department phone, which I have Axon access, and you can upload the video right then and there, and I don't need to take your phone.
01:13:38.960I might ask you if you have any other additional photos, but that's it.
01:13:43.900So, in a situation like this, where there's so many phones, I mean, I'm kind of guessing here, but I would expect that police would be more likely to look at a video on scene when there's, like, one video, and it may determine what their next step is.
01:13:57.180Like, are they going to make an arrest or not make an arrest?
01:14:03.820There's no decision-making that really needs to be made, right?
01:14:06.300And you have so many phones that you're going to want to have your leisure to look at all of those.
01:14:12.920We're not going to look at them all on scene.
01:14:15.300The reason why I asked is because, I suppose the next question I have is, when you issue a, like, they arrested Anthony, and they listed a charge for his arrest.
01:14:37.080Dude, when I first got on SVU, and I would, like, talk to new people, I'd be like, yeah, I'm an SVU detective, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, and I do my own music.
01:14:45.180But a lot of times we will, and this actually happened the other day, I had an individual that came in for a sexual assault on a child, and I had the option.
01:14:58.640Do I start the ticking clock to where I have to give everything to the district attorney's office to where they can follow the ridiculous discovery laws in New York State or by arresting him?
01:15:13.660Once you arrest him, hey, you're in handcuffs, you are under arrest, I'm putting charges on you, that ticking clock starts.
01:15:19.380Or can I have an indefinite period of time to conduct my investigation by saying, okay, thanks for coming in and talking to me.
01:15:32.540But I'm going to let you go today, and I'm going to let, I'm going to have my conversation with the assistant district attorneys that run that specific case.
01:15:39.000And eventually we may indict you or we'll pick you up later, which is very difficult to tell victims of sexual abuse.
01:15:46.160Hey, we need to make sure that we have to nail this guy to the wall, which means even though I just talked to him, even though you told me what happened, even though there's physical evidence and you went to the hospital to retrieve it, I have to let him go.
01:16:00.080But what about the fear that they offend again?
01:16:14.580The reason why I asked is because we had a conversation on the Anthony case earlier in the week, and I said, based on the fact that we know that there's video and that they didn't charge him on the weapon, so I don't think it's a felony murder rule.
01:16:30.940And the presumption is, I assume these cops saw some of these people's video footage, that they decided to charge him on first-degree murder because they actually, they believe, like, this guy did it.
01:16:52.260Because there's statements of, I did this at this time, then I did that, which is huge, and I think every department, not just Texas, has to do that, where it's some sort of statement regarding what you did specifically on a homicide scene.
01:17:05.120I mean, if one of them looked at a phone and said, I saw the video, that would be in the statement.
01:17:11.340I haven't seen anything that says that yet.
01:17:13.540Because I'm curious, is there a circumstance where the police charge him with first-degree murder thinking maybe it's not a first-degree murder?
01:17:27.540And you'll be able to speak to this when it comes to misdemeanors and felonies.
01:17:31.480Misdemeanors, if you don't have an eyewitness person writing down a supporting deposition or a statement, you can't arrest for a misdemeanor.
01:17:40.460Within like five or six days, the first trial will be thrown away for insufficient evidence.
01:17:44.460However, a felony in New York State, you can go with reasonable suspicion.
01:18:13.920So in theory, probable cause, what it's supposed to mean is someone's applying their judgment to the evidence they have before them,
01:18:20.600and it's more likely than not, it's probable that the person committed the crime – in fact, the threshold is way below that, way below that.
01:18:27.660People get arrested on much less evidence all the time.
01:18:30.780But you can think of the police charging as almost like a preliminary charge because the moment it ends up at the DA's office,
01:18:36.620they're doing a completely independent assessment of the evidence.
01:18:39.860They're not bound by anything the police said.
01:18:42.180It's as if the police hadn't made a charge at all.
01:18:44.380It's just the police have to charge you with something if they want to arrest you.
01:18:47.100And then the prosecutor is going to look at the evidence and come to their own assessment of whether or not they think probable cause exists for maybe a different crime,
01:18:54.460maybe the same crime, maybe a more serious crime.
01:24:02.940It's a con man story of the ways they – so it may actually be a description of how they can actually game the system to steal from people.
01:24:11.500One of the tricks they do is there's two people, a pickpocket and an individual with a self-addressed stamped envelope.
01:24:20.820They pickpocket you and immediately – so you – victims walking this way.
01:24:25.080They walk past you, pickpocket you, and the person behind them has an envelope, and the pickpocket immediately grabs it, puts it in the envelope, and then the person with the envelope drops it in a mailbox.
01:24:34.620The victim then says, where's my wallet?
01:24:54.960So because I've heard stories in the news where it's like an indictment for the murder of a person has been issued by this guy, and it's like what's the line for when the police can't make an arrest
01:25:05.580and the DA has to issue an indictment for the police to go and get the warrant for the arrest and stuff like that.
01:25:10.960So the difference between, feel free to correct me here, the difference between a warrant and an indictment is that the warrant starts the arrest, which begins the legal process.
01:25:20.700An indictment is you're not detained, and the process begins, but you're not in custody.
01:25:28.260You're now a criminal defendant in the trial proceeding.
01:25:31.660It's really the same threshold in a sense.
01:25:33.460I mean, the officer making the arrest, he has to have probable cause to make the arrest.
01:25:37.040The grand jury is essentially making a separate probable cause determination.
01:25:41.160Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist, and I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.
01:25:50.920Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.
01:25:59.120There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say,
01:26:04.020thank you for telling me I'm not crazy, but I don't really doubt my own sanity.
01:26:09.560I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.
01:26:17.480I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.
01:26:24.320The Gist is for people who know that being interesting starts with being interested.
01:26:30.300Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.
01:26:34.200Back in the 80s, Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avery were budding filmmakers working together at a hip Los Angeles video store called Video Archives.
01:26:42.980We didn't have a cash register for four years.
01:26:45.620Now, they're reuniting to watch the original tapes from the Video Archives collection, films like Dark Star, Moonraker, and many more.
01:26:55.660The Video Archives podcast is out now.
01:26:58.120Find us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
01:27:01.680The transition point from merely being a suspect to being a criminal defendant named in a judicial proceeding.
01:27:09.540And I don't have to physically pick you up.
01:27:11.540They can just be indicted by a grand jury.
01:27:13.420And this is like typically like white collar crimes are typically indictments from a grand jury like the DA brought a case.
01:27:20.520I have one right now where it's a group rape on a young woman.
01:27:24.480And because there's so many people involved, we don't want to put the onus on the police officers to go find each individual and hunt them down.
01:27:33.760We're going to put out an indictment warrant for all of them at the same time.
01:27:37.020And then eventually when they get picked up down the line, the process has already started.
01:29:14.000And so the moment it's an officer who used the force, you know, as an attorney, you know you can go right into federal court, file a huge suit.
01:29:22.940And who decides whether or not to settle the suit?
01:29:31.900And I guarantee you, politicians are always happy to spend other people's money to make their own political problems go away.
01:29:39.280So when it's a cop-involved case, it involves huge flows of money that don't exist when it's just two civilians who got in a fight.
01:29:47.640You know, from what I was talking about, that when it comes to law enforcement, you're largely inconvenienced out of fears of public reaction.
01:30:02.440So I was driving down the street on the east side of Buffalo with my partner, and a guy in a wheelchair came up and waved us down and said that a kid out of a group of kids had pulled a firearm on him, a pistol, and either tried to rob him or threatened him with it.
01:30:16.620And so we pull up, and we see the group of kids, and then, of course, the one walks away from the group, and we're like, oh, there's our guy.
01:30:23.620So I go over there, you know, talking with the window down.
01:33:42.360Conservatives are like, this is great.
01:33:43.720And then the video of the cop, you know, shooting the guy in the back gets 50 million and gets shared every other week over and over and over and over again.
01:34:21.700You get a generation of young people in Gen Z who think police need to be abolished, that they're roving bands of white supremacists, Klansmen who murder black people all day.
01:34:31.680You get these videos where they ask people, how many unarmed black men do you think were killed last year?
01:34:46.600And it's effectively everything we're being exposed to is effectively brainwashing.
01:34:50.560And if all you see is police violence, you become brainwashed into believing that's the norm.
01:34:55.080By the way, in this Anthony Carmelo, Anthony stabbing case, I'd heard that in one or another of their high schools, there have been five murders already in the past year.
01:36:01.520If you're in possession of that, it can be a problem, especially in particular locations like a school, and if you're under 18, which would apply here.
01:36:09.300But I don't think, generally speaking, a smaller knife, a normal-sized folding knife, would be a problem.
01:36:14.460By the way, I'm of a certain age, but when I was in high school, I carried a buck knife every day.
01:36:20.220Well, I suppose the bigger philosophical question, you know, as we've got give-s-and-go here is, why do you think, you know, if we haven't gone over it, but why do you guys think there's been such anger towards the fact
01:36:31.160that you guys have allowed the family to fundraise off of it?
01:36:33.660I understand it's a probably obvious question everybody I'm asking so that they can answer, not because I don't know the answer.
01:36:38.880But I'm curious your thoughts on, you know, how people perceive it.
01:36:53.140I think this is just how I view the world and things.
01:36:56.620I think we've debased society, and the byproduct of debasing society is principles weighing, moral values weighing, and we begin to be engrossed in our own narcissistic behavior.
01:37:08.980Everything's about us, towards us, and we spiral, and social fabric begins to unwind, and we're seeing all that stuff happen.
01:37:16.740And I think the way that you start to remedy that is you operate with principles, which is what we do.
01:37:23.440And I do think that there is a redemptive element to a company like ours that says, hey, we're not going to just bow to the emotionalism of situations,
01:37:33.780but we're going to stand on the principle and the reason why these principles exist,
01:37:37.740which is that they actually have moral oughts, foundations, and a moral lawgiver that we derived them from as our foundation.
01:37:45.540John Adams said this, our framework for our country was only for moral and religious people.
01:37:52.260It was derived from these ideas, and we've unwound that 50, 60 years ago.
01:37:58.880We've replaced it with our own freedom to do whatever we want.
01:38:02.700So those are the fundamentals, I think, I think Gibson goes doing it.
01:38:06.560Why are we seeing, I think nobody, and this is, I think this is very, this is just very interesting that it happens that we're having this conversation on someone, on Good Friday.
01:38:20.080The whole purpose of the Good Friday story is that humanity is broken.
01:38:25.340Not just the left is broken, and not just the right is broken.
01:38:28.440Humanity is broken, and that God in Jesus redeemed humanity, did something incredible, and that we are all without excuse.
01:38:38.380And I think that that, again, pride, when you, a fundamental value to just the idea of God is humility,
01:38:46.180because it immediately says there's something beyond me.
01:38:49.240There's something, I'm not omniscient, I don't know everything.
01:38:53.820And when you rob society of that, when you begin to, like, move out of that place, all of a sudden, the ills of humanity start bubbling to the surface.
01:39:04.500And I think that that's just what we're doing.
01:39:06.140One of the arguments that I've heard, someone argued this to me.
01:39:09.140So my position on, say, free speech is, used to be classically liberal.
01:39:13.840You know, I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death of your right to say it.
01:39:16.740Now my attitude is, if you don't believe in free speech, I will not defend you.
01:39:45.120At a certain point, I said, I am no longer going to equip my enemies to destroy me.
01:39:49.420So I will defend free speech for literally anybody who believes in free speech, even bad people.
01:39:54.540That means if I meet a guy who's a communist, but he routinely defends the idea of free speech, if he gets censored, I will defend his free speech.
01:40:01.520But the leftists and the liberals who call for censorship will never be defended by me.
01:40:05.640Not that I disagree with free speech, but that I will not use my voice to empower those who seek to destroy me, my morals, and my way of life.
01:40:14.520And so with this issue with Give, Send, Go, someone asked me that.
01:40:18.540Tim, this is what you said about free speech and other issues.
01:40:21.120Why would we let—why would we not just say, this is the other side?
01:40:25.720We defend ours, we defend those who believe in our values, not you.
01:40:30.940And, you know, my view of this was largely that at the core of this case, I do not view Carmelo Anthony as a BLM actor who was intending to destroy the U.S. government.
01:40:41.440It's a case of a murder at a high school in which I don't—this guy's not at war with me over ideology, whatever.
01:40:51.120However, the response is the position now is that it's largely a pro-BLM racial identitarian movement funding this Give, Send, Go.
01:41:00.260Why should we allow that to operate, you know, to pay for their bills?
01:41:03.620Well, I think the danger always when you walk down that path of not defending someone that you disagree with that opposes you is that you just spiral to a further depth of depravity.
01:41:20.380And I think you become exactly the thing that you hate about the other person.
01:41:24.140And this is—you know, I think we have to defend the rights of people that disagree and want to speak out against us.
01:41:33.380Otherwise, death creeps in everywhere.
01:41:40.540I don't know, man. What do you guys think?
01:41:41.180It's the downside of freedom, I think, is that the reality of freedom is that bad stuff does happen.
01:41:46.640I mean, it's just—it's a byproduct of it.
01:41:48.440I think there's different filters we can take to these events, right?
01:41:51.840And some of them are kind of superficial, and some of them are really fundamentally important just as matters of due process.
01:41:57.820I mean, you mentioned John Adams, right, a founding father, when our nation fought a desperate eight-year war against the most powerful military in the world to free ourselves from tyranny.
01:42:06.860That same John Adams defended the British soldiers at the Boston Massacre, right?
01:42:12.800Just because he was fighting their king didn't mean he was not going to defend them from criminal charges in court.
01:42:17.440I think you can look at the Carmelo Anthony thing and have kind of a—you know, we all have things we go about our day that are more important.
01:42:23.520You have kind of a superficial, maybe emotional take.
01:42:26.200Maybe you're being swept along by the propaganda waters that are in the media, and you come to some conclusion, I think he's guilty, I think he's not guilty.
01:42:33.420And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.
01:42:34.840That's what we all do about normal things that are in the news.
01:42:37.240You might get a more technical understanding based on law of where those things stand.
01:42:42.880But there's at least a third filter, and that is our society has set up a process to actually determine whether or not we're going to lock you in a cage for something you did.
01:42:57.280Two sides get to make their arguments, tell their story of guilt and innocence to the jury, and the jury makes that call.
01:43:03.100And the higher the stakes are, and those are the ultimate stakes, right, spend the rest of your life in a cage, the more effort and commitment and due process we have to be willing to make.
01:43:19.600I think that a kid getting his money for self-defense, for some sort of litigation that's going on for his charges or whatever is like, who gives a shit?
01:43:31.780I don't think that the issue is can we raise money for people that we disagree with.
01:43:38.400I think it's a bunch of idiot grifters and people who want to get their lulls and troll and say stupid racist things and have that blanket of anonymity or the blanket of being a part of a large group that they can cling to and then feel good about themselves.
01:43:56.940I think that – and I don't want to shit on you.
01:44:00.440I think that what you're going through is horrible.
01:44:02.260I've gone through similar things, doxing, numerous – just crap.
01:44:07.940And I've seen a lot of people go with the ebbs and flows of I feel right or I feel that you're wrong and I think it's going to pass for you and you'll be on top.
01:44:23.120I mean, look, the reality is – and I don't recommend this, but if your approach to this had been pure snobbery arrogance of complain all day, baby, you got nowhere else to go, bro, GoFundMe will ban you in two seconds.
01:44:42.320Give, send, go says we're not going to do that to you.
01:44:44.440So there are a lot of people who are upset, and I understand why they're upset.
01:44:47.600But the truth is you guys have the only platform that's allowing people – I mean, they've taken down religious GoFundMes that weren't even related to murder.
01:45:11.620That's what they tried to initially, and then there was such backlash, so they refunded.
01:45:16.960But I do think – I think principle on its – like inherent to the nature of principle, which is when we talk about free –
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01:46:07.180And so when you begin to make exception to the principle for my side versus your side, you're just continuing to exasperate the situation versus saying, no, the principle actually will unify us.
01:46:20.380That's why I say I do think that there's an element that by allowing this young man, his family, to have this fund, it actually begins to create unity.
01:46:30.980Because, no, the left and the right both have it.
01:46:33.920It actually provides a level playing field for everybody, and it brings back some unity to culture.
01:46:39.060There's a Luigi Mangione gives anything, isn't there?
01:46:59.240If this had been, at the high school event, if this had been two white kids who stabbed each other or two black kids who stabbed each other, we wouldn't even know about it.
01:47:05.700Well, to be fair, we did, I did a search of, it was really funny, I went on ChatGPT when we were talking about this, and I said, give me a list of crimes this year, or give me a list of murders this year that were a black person stabbing or killing a white person.
01:47:24.820I was going to say, what did Grok say?
01:47:25.900Grok was like, here you go, buddy, and then started just dropping all of these stories.
01:47:29.500And it was like, you know, there was one story where a young white kid was trying to buy drugs and got murdered by the dealer who was black.
01:47:37.060And I'm like, I can understand why that story didn't get picked up by the right, because there's a kid buying drugs.
01:47:54.680I think the right, the vitriol comes largely from over the past decade plus.
01:48:00.440The right has been insulted, called racist, white supremacist, while the media refused to talk about black on white crime.
01:48:07.120Like, you go on ChatGPT and ask, tell me about black on white crime, and it tells you no.
01:48:12.920But I'll tell you this, if I go on ChatGPT right now and say, give me an example of an incident where a black man killed a white man, it will refuse.
01:48:20.340But if I say, give me an instance where a white man killed a black man, it'll give me a list of 300.
01:48:24.320It'll be like, every time it's ever happened in the history of this country, available for you to browse.
02:00:42.680Well, then your case is, well, if they pick the wrong guy, then you're shit out of luck and you need to figure out who your real suspect is.
02:00:57.100If you're the person that's going to be receiving the photo array, I'll go to you or you, a detective, not even in my division, and it'll be in a closed envelope.
02:01:53.980So when they're laying it out, they take one in six, they just slide them downward a little bit, and then they go like that to the two, three, and four, you know?
02:03:21.760There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say, thank you for telling me I'm not crazy.
02:03:30.100But I don't really doubt my own sanity.
02:03:32.440I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.
02:03:40.380I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.
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02:06:45.700So witness testimony, forensic stuff, everything is evidence.
02:06:49.360The difference between evidence and proof is we call it proof when we've decided it's enough evidence to make a decision.
02:06:54.680It's evidence that's achieved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
02:06:57.820The person's proven guilty at that point.
02:07:00.220But you built up a mountain of evidence to get to that point.
02:07:03.140Do you think we're getting, we only have like a couple minutes left, but do you think we're getting to the point where, like, what happens if there's a video of a guy committing a murder, but then he just says it's AI?
02:07:12.260And then he brings in an expert who says that's AI generated, not a real video.
02:07:43.720If a video editor PhD expert is hired, gets paid 50 grand to come in and say, that's a fake video made by a computer program, in my expert opinion.
02:08:56.340And I'll try to make this really quick, like 30 seconds.
02:08:58.780I go out of my way, especially in SVU and sort of my other detectives, that when we are doing a statement, it is one recorded audio and video.
02:09:52.220Check out me on the Unsub podcast on Wednesday where I whistle, though, that the Buffalo school system is protecting pedophiles and not assisting us in the investigations of child-on-child sexual assault.