The Culture War - Tim Pool - Karmelo Anthony Debate： Use Of Force & Murder w⧸ Andrew Branca, Richard Hy & Jacob Wells

00:00:00.000 Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist, and I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too,

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00:00:22.680 thank you for telling me I'm not crazy, but I don't really doubt my own sanity.

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00:00:52.900 The Carmelo-Anthony debate.

00:00:54.000 Oh boy, this is a hot button issue.

00:00:56.000 The Carmelo-Anthony family, his family has raised, I think, around a half a million or so dollars using Give, Send, Go,

00:01:03.100 which has sparked a lot of outrage because to the right, it is clear cut with the police report evidence, with witness testimony.

00:01:10.160 This was a murder in the first degree.

00:01:13.900 Now, in Texas, that just means Carmelo-Anthony killed Austin Metcalfe.

00:01:18.620 And it was over nothing.

00:01:19.460 It was over an argument about being under a tent.

00:01:21.080 Now, there does appear to be some left element that is defending this kid, giving him money.

00:01:29.160 I don't believe personally, and this is probably a biased thing to say at the start of the debate,

00:01:32.820 I don't believe they're defending him because they think that he's innocent.

00:01:35.440 The comments that I've seen largely are that it's because he's black.

00:01:38.800 There are people saying black people have to stand together in solidarity,

00:01:41.620 and that's largely why they're donating to him.

00:01:44.240 And they're using self-defense as an argument, which is largely a racial issue.

00:01:47.720 But we'll talk about this.

00:01:49.160 We tried our best to find an individual who was pro-Carmelo-Anthony.

00:01:54.720 Not only was it very difficult to find, but the very few that do exist that are very vocal

00:01:59.220 did not want to come on and debate the issue.

00:02:02.020 And I think it's kind of obvious.

00:02:03.080 Because I was going to be here.

00:02:04.440 I think it's kind of obvious why.

00:02:05.880 But we do have a lot to discuss on this issue.

00:02:09.340 And it's not just about Carmelo-Anthony.

00:02:10.740 We're going to talk about Ahmaud Arbery, the McMichaels, general self-defense,

00:02:14.560 why this case is so clear-cut, why people feel the way they do.

00:02:19.160 And so let's go around and everyone can just introduce yourself.

00:02:23.320 There you go.

00:02:24.140 Sure.

00:02:24.380 I'm attorney Andrew Branca for the Law of Self-Defense.

00:02:27.260 I'm an attorney who has an expertise in use of force law,

00:02:31.460 defense of yourself, your family, your property.

00:02:33.860 I've been doing that for 34 years now, actually.

00:02:38.320 And I was just in Dulles a couple weeks ago.

00:02:39.760 I just got admitted to the Supreme Court bar.

00:02:41.840 Oh, wow.

00:02:42.320 Very cool.

00:02:43.160 So, I mean, you would know, right?

00:02:46.180 Every comment I hear on this, there are some people on the right that are very,

00:02:49.820 very, very extreme on the circumstances.

00:02:52.060 Right. 0.99

00:02:52.440 And there are people who are still like, it was murder, but you guys are crazy.

00:02:56.640 And I see everybody referring to your reporting and your work on this as you

00:02:59.880 wrote the book on self-defense.

00:03:01.320 Quite literally, yeah.

00:03:02.320 So, sir, who are you?

00:03:04.460 I'm Rich.

00:03:04.860 Hi.

00:03:05.260 I'm a detective for the City of Buffalo Special Victims Unit.

00:03:07.880 I'm also a YouTuber.

00:03:08.940 I go by Angry Cops.

00:03:10.360 And I give my point of view on military and police-related incidents that

00:03:14.780 happen in the zeitgeist of, you know, every day-to-day stuff.

00:03:18.600 And you're actively a detective?

00:03:20.240 I am currently a Special Victims Unit detective in the City of Buffalo.

00:03:22.900 And they let you do podcasts and YouTube videos?

00:03:25.020 I almost got fired a couple of times.

00:03:26.440 Really?

00:03:27.160 Yeah.

00:03:27.500 If it wasn't a passion, I probably would have stopped and I'd be just a normal guy

00:03:31.420 working the beat.

00:03:32.340 We got a lot to talk about with you because rarely, with all the reporting I've done,

00:03:37.260 cops don't talk because they're not supposed to. 0.86

00:03:39.300 But to get the actual perspective of someone who's currently doing the work is going to

00:03:42.960 be invaluable.

00:03:43.380 And then Give, Send, Go is here.

00:03:45.760 Yeah.

00:03:46.160 Jacob Wells, co-founder of Give, Send, Go.com.

00:03:49.440 Ten-year anniversary this year.

00:03:51.780 And we are right in the crosshairs of this campaign.

00:03:55.860 All right.

00:03:56.740 Well, let's get started.

00:03:59.000 We'll start with Andrew Branca, Esquire.

00:04:02.960 What happened and why is this murder?

00:04:06.080 Well, based on the evidence we have so far, of course, new evidence can arise and new evidence

00:04:11.180 can change the legal analysis.

00:04:13.060 But I see a lot of vulnerabilities on this claim of self-defense, on the facts and evidence,

00:04:18.760 most of which are coming from, of course, the police report.

00:04:22.140 I guess we'll be stepping through that probably.

00:04:23.720 We have it.

00:04:24.240 Yeah, we have it.

00:04:24.640 I mean, we can bounce through it as you talk about your thoughts on the matter.

00:04:28.740 Yeah, I think to the extent we agree with what's in there, I don't think we need to

00:04:31.540 go to the document unless you want to.

00:04:34.400 But I do think the important things to consider for people who maybe have only have heard of this

00:04:39.700 in passing is that there are two versions of the events in question.

00:04:44.200 One is that, so we can glean some information based on this.

00:04:49.160 It was either about a thunderstorm or was raining.

00:04:52.240 The tent in question, it's important to clarify, it's a pop-up gazebo, not an enclosed space.

00:04:57.120 The two versions of the events in the police report are that they're relatively similar.

00:05:02.360 From, this is, I believe, Officer Wetzel.

00:05:07.420 He was told by one of the witnesses that he, Carmelo Anthony went into this pop-up, sat

00:05:15.300 down, was, Austin approached him and told him to leave, to which he responded, he grabbed

00:05:19.720 his bag, reached in and said, touch me and see what happens.

00:05:22.400 They then say that Austin proceeded to touch Anthony and then Anthony told Austin to punch

00:05:26.440 him and see what happens.

00:05:27.860 A short time later, Austin grabbed Anthony to tell him to move.

00:05:30.220 Anthony pulled out what Redacted recalled as a black knife and stabbed Austin once in the

00:05:34.220 chest and ran away.

00:05:35.660 Austin began grabbing his chest and telling everyone to get help.

00:05:38.340 Redacted advised he did not know Anthony's name, but stated another Memorial Track member

00:05:44.420 who goes by the initials E and P was friends with Anthony and could identify Anthony.

00:05:48.780 Redacted described Anthony as a black male, skinny with possibly a goatee, short, puffy hair,

00:05:52.580 wearing Centennial High School clothing, and that concluded his contact.

00:05:55.440 Another officer, I don't think we, I don't know how much detail we need to go in on the

00:06:01.820 second one because it's relatively similar, but the second witness account was that Carmelo

00:06:07.360 Anthony was actually pacing back and forth beneath the tent.

00:06:11.380 So that's an important addition to the claim because it implies, I think it implies he had

00:06:18.040 the ability to flee at any moment.

00:06:19.080 So the argument that there was a threat of death upon him was that if he's pacing back

00:06:24.920 and forth, according to one of the witnesses, he could have paced well out of the way of

00:06:28.200 any harm.

00:06:29.520 But that's, that's in this.

00:06:31.680 Even without that, of course, the challenge to him was leave.

00:06:34.920 So he was being given the opportunity to leave.

00:06:38.060 That, that, that, that's the second account.

00:06:39.860 The second account doesn't mention the punch me and see what happens.

00:06:43.200 Just the touch me and see what happens.

00:06:44.820 And it added that he was pacing back and forth.

00:06:47.020 So what would, like, give us, give us what you need in Texas for something to be self-defense.

00:06:53.160 You need to have a reasonable perception that you're facing an imminent, unlawful threat

00:06:57.940 of deadly force harm.

00:06:59.300 And you need not to have provoked that conflict.

00:07:02.280 But interestingly too, Texas doesn't require you to flee at all.

00:07:07.800 Well, there's a catch there.

00:07:09.640 So Texas is a stand your ground state.

00:07:11.240 In fact, it's what I call a hard stand your ground state.

00:07:13.980 If you qualify for stand your ground, the jury's not even allowed to consider the possibility

00:07:17.780 that you could have retreated in evaluating whether your self-defense was reasonable.

00:07:22.380 But if you can be characterized as the provoker, if you provoked a confrontation, you reacquire,

00:07:29.500 you don't qualify for stand your ground as a provoker and you reacquire a legal duty to

00:07:34.100 retreat.

00:07:34.560 So to the extent the prosecution can argue that Carmelo Anthony provoked this confrontation with

00:07:40.480 this touch me, see what happens dialogue, that would lose him, stand your ground, and

00:07:45.560 he would have a legal duty to retreat.

00:07:47.420 So what do you guys think?

00:07:48.000 You think he provoked it?

00:07:49.700 Yeah.

00:07:51.660 That's how I hear those words.

00:07:53.060 Yeah.

00:07:54.440 You're more of the, you know, you've got a neutral fundraising platform.

00:07:58.240 Yes.

00:07:58.780 You're not trying to be involved, but I'm curious your thoughts on this case.

00:08:01.640 So let me just throw some information first.

00:08:04.580 Gibson Go allows people to raise money for legal defense.

00:08:06.760 Right.

00:08:07.220 Regardless of the presumption of guilt or innocence or otherwise.

00:08:09.680 And you've gotten a lot of heat from people for allowing them to run a fundraiser, but

00:08:13.580 you've also allowed many, many others.

00:08:14.780 I believe Luigi Mangione has a fundraiser on Gibson Go.

00:08:16.580 He does.

00:08:17.300 And like you said, many, many, many others.

00:08:20.160 Like I could go through a laundry list of people that the right would potentially consider

00:08:24.760 heroes.

00:08:25.960 The Kyle Rittenhouses, the Daniel Penneys.

00:08:27.740 I mean, Daniel Penney's situation, I don't think the guy, he verbally said some stuff.

00:08:31.760 I don't think he had even punched or struck anybody, Jordan Neely, before Daniel Penney

00:08:37.520 intervened in that situation.

00:08:38.980 So we've allowed campaigns across the board.

00:08:41.940 We believe in that presumption of innocence.

00:08:43.900 With this case.

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00:09:14.240 This is Esther, host of Once Upon a Crime.

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00:09:49.260 You know, obviously you can see what you can see, but the problem is, there's so much that

00:09:56.240 we don't know.

00:09:56.940 I mean, you can try to adjudicate these things and talk about the facts that we know, but

00:10:00.720 I believe that there is so much that we still don't know.

00:10:03.940 And it makes it very difficult, which is why we take the principled stance that we take.

00:10:08.400 I'm going to say this, and I'm going to say it as a shockingly and offensive to everybody

00:10:13.600 as I can, as fast as I can.

00:10:15.640 Then I'm going to pause for five seconds, and then you're all going to agree with me.

00:10:19.140 I'm talking to the audience.

00:10:20.780 So let me offend you first.

00:10:22.700 Carmelo Anthony will be acquitted.

00:10:24.980 He will be found, not guilty.

00:10:29.600 Okay, is everybody sufficiently angry?

00:10:31.100 Because far-left rioters are going to threaten the jurors, and the jurors are going to bend

00:10:34.120 the knee.

00:10:34.640 Not because he's actually innocent.

00:10:37.140 That's what I think is going to happen.

00:10:38.580 I think it's going to be like the Arbery case.

00:10:40.020 I think it's going to be like the Floyd case with Chauvin, where they're going to imprison—or

00:10:47.460 I'm sorry, the jury is going to side with whatever the left is, and the rioters will

00:10:52.640 not be imprisoned or face justice.

00:10:54.200 I personally think, and this is why—one of the reasons why we allow campaigns for things

00:11:00.800 like this is so that somebody in a situation, Carmelo in this scenario, can have the best

00:11:06.720 defense, and it actually removes some of the vitriol on the left, in this case, from

00:11:12.180 being able to say he was unjustly given—he wasn't given the same—afforded the same defense

00:11:18.280 situation that these other ones.

00:11:20.000 It actually removes that or decreases the likelihood of that, because they're going to

00:11:23.980 have to sit back at the end of whatever comes out here, and they're going to say, you

00:11:26.800 know what?

00:11:27.320 He raised half a million dollars.

00:11:28.580 He actually was able to hire a private attorney and get a great defense.

00:11:32.840 And that's, to me, a calming effect.

00:11:36.720 It's another reason why we allow these types of campaigns. 0.93

00:11:39.220 And by the way, that would be a completely legitimate take.

00:11:41.440 So from my perspective, I think anybody should be able to raise as much money as they possibly

00:11:45.020 can for their legal defense, because the money matters.

00:11:48.060 We'd all like to think we live in a world where how many resources you can bring to the

00:11:51.340 legal fight doesn't affect the kind of justice you get.

00:11:53.980 But I guarantee you it does.

00:11:55.760 A $200,000 legal defense is a lot different than a $20,000 legal defense.

00:11:59.620 And if the left or whoever's on Carmelo Anthony's side politically were to say, hey, he got

00:12:04.380 defunded.

00:12:05.080 That's why he got convicted.

00:12:06.640 There's merit to that argument.

00:12:08.740 Yes.

00:12:09.020 And yes.

00:12:09.780 And however, I.

00:12:13.720 What has his family been doing as of late now?

00:12:16.380 They say they don't have access to the funds, but they moved into a bigger house in a gated

00:12:19.300 community, got security and bought reportedly and escalated.

00:12:22.960 So wasn't it?

00:12:23.840 Didn't they move into their house like six months ago or like eight months ago before the

00:12:26.580 murder even happened, though?

00:12:27.720 Is that is that true?

00:12:28.460 I don't know.

00:12:28.760 I'm almost certain.

00:12:29.300 I saw numerous reports saying.

00:12:30.780 Summer of 2024.

00:12:31.760 They my understanding is that they had told the judge the reason they couldn't afford

00:12:35.500 the the million dollar bail was that they didn't have access to the funds and they were

00:12:41.860 going to use it to secure new housing and security.

00:12:45.560 And then the judge lowered the bail down by 75 percent.

00:12:49.280 Yes.

00:12:49.480 So.

00:12:49.700 So part of that, I think there's partial truths.

00:12:52.300 This is the problem is that partial truths just run wild.

00:12:55.080 I think what we saw was that they were already renting a nine hundred thousand dollar square

00:13:02.000 foot home.

00:13:02.680 They lived in that type of home already.

00:13:05.680 As a result of this situation, they found another one within a gated community to rent

00:13:10.940 as well so that they could have some security for their family.

00:13:13.840 The Cadillac that was, you know, supposed to have been bought recently wasn't.

00:13:19.060 It's a couple of years old.

00:13:20.420 It was bought in 2023.

00:13:22.040 So a lot of these things are mixed up in the media.

00:13:25.040 I think it was a New York Post.

00:13:26.720 Yeah.

00:13:26.880 New York Post.

00:13:27.600 Yeah.

00:13:27.780 I believe the Sun.

00:13:28.580 I believe like even the Independent have all reported this.

00:13:30.720 Oh, they did.

00:13:31.560 And most of it's been already fact checked and debunked.

00:13:34.760 It was unreliable sources.

00:13:36.600 And it was a neighbor that said, well, they got a temporary tag on a thing.

00:13:40.060 So they just bought this new vehicle.

00:13:41.540 It's like, wow.

00:13:42.280 Most of this stuff, completely unreliable sources.

00:13:46.560 And it's caused narratives.

00:13:48.200 And this is why, I mean, if you watch the interview that the mom did the other day,

00:13:52.480 she addressed some of these things in it, which is like there's false narratives that

00:13:57.700 are running rampant.

00:13:58.760 Is that the same one that the victim's father showed up to?

00:14:02.300 Yes.

00:14:02.860 Brilliant move.

00:14:04.060 That was crazy.

00:14:05.120 He showed up.

00:14:05.780 It was absolutely brilliant.

00:14:06.620 I think it kind of shows the circumstance of, you know, people coming after the family

00:14:13.060 and saying like, well, you know, he had no duty to retreat.

00:14:15.080 He could have sat there the entire time.

00:14:16.740 This guy was getting accosted because he sat underneath the tent.

00:14:19.660 Oh, dad shows up to a place that seems like it's open to the public.

00:14:23.040 And now it's inappropriate for him to be somewhere where he has the legal right to be.

00:14:27.000 Oh, my God.

00:14:27.860 The juxtaposition.

00:14:28.740 It's crazy.

00:14:29.640 It's almost like dad did that on purpose and was brilliantly done.

00:14:34.040 Let's clarify.

00:14:35.760 There are a lot of things that I've seen online where people are so adamant to adjudicate

00:14:42.080 this case before we've gone to trial that they have said things that are incorrect as

00:14:47.420 it pertains to self-defense.

00:14:48.920 I've seen people say things like you can't use lethal force if someone is simply grabbing

00:14:54.800 you.

00:14:55.400 They say things like you can't use lethal force unless you've been touched.

00:14:59.900 I've seen things like you can't use lethal force unless you are facing explicit lethal

00:15:04.360 force.

00:15:04.720 And there's caveats to all of these things.

00:15:07.340 So I ask the lawyer himself, are there circumstances where being grabbed in any scenario, like you

00:15:15.520 can imagine one, where lethal force would be justifiable self-defense?

00:15:19.020 Absolutely.

00:15:20.600 I mean, everyone's asking the wrong question or answering the wrong question.

00:15:24.120 The question again is, did you have a reasonable perception that you were facing an imminent

00:15:28.460 threat of unlawful deadly force harm?

00:15:30.620 If the answer to that is yes, you can use deadly force in self-defense.

00:15:33.560 And there's an infinite number of ways that can happen.

00:15:36.820 If someone just grabs you, are they grabbing you and they have a knife in their other hand?

00:15:40.360 Because that's going to be a bad day for you.

00:15:42.580 Are they grabbing you and they're 200 pounds heavier than you?

00:15:45.440 Bad day for you.

00:15:46.340 That could well be a deadly force threat.

00:15:47.920 What if they grab you and there's five guys all around you?

00:15:52.220 Sure.

00:15:52.580 Then there's a disparity of numbers.

00:15:54.060 Then it's the force of the collective group that's threatening you, not just one individual.

00:15:58.320 What if they don't touch you at all?

00:15:59.900 Are there circumstances where deadly force is just threatened?

00:16:01.520 Yes, of course.

00:16:02.240 If someone comes up to me and opens up their jacket and says, give me your wallet, and

00:16:05.760 they show a gun, they haven't touched me.

00:16:08.340 I don't have to suffer a scratch before I can defend myself.

00:16:10.860 I can defend myself against the threat that's about to occur.

00:16:14.420 It's an imminent threat that you're defending yourself against.

00:16:16.800 In fact, if some guy runs up and punches you and then he runs away, you can't use force

00:16:21.020 against that guy.

00:16:21.800 The punch is over.

00:16:22.620 The attack's over.

00:16:23.440 That would be vengeance after that. 0.93

00:16:24.880 What if he stabs you and runs away? 0.97

00:16:26.320 Same thing? 0.99

00:16:26.780 Same thing.

00:16:28.560 I mean, I know you'd want to.

00:16:29.820 I mean, people would be like, how dare you?

00:16:32.520 But that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:33.780 He'd have to continue to represent a deadly force threat to somebody.

00:16:37.400 So if he's running around stabbing people, and so it seems likely he's about to stab

00:16:40.940 someone else after you, but then you're actually shooting him in defense of others, in defense

00:16:45.160 of the people he's-

00:16:46.240 So the other important thing, too, is that all these states are different.

00:16:49.480 So it's hard to know-

00:16:50.480 They're not that different.

00:16:51.280 It's about 80% the same across the 50 states.

00:16:54.620 Yeah, you were talking about Tennessee versus Garner, which you were talking about in the

00:16:57.080 car a little bit earlier.

00:16:57.860 That's the fleeing felon rule.

00:16:59.000 Like what, you can use deadly force on a fleeing felon if he's still a threat to others.

00:17:04.020 However, hypothetically, and this is the Tennessee Garner case, if you drop a firearm and you

00:17:08.800 jump a fence and the cop is still chasing after you, he can't plug you in the back.

00:17:12.720 That threat of deadly use of force to the community is no longer present.

00:17:17.100 Yeah, the issue is not the flight.

00:17:18.420 The issue is, does the person still represent a danger to somebody?

00:17:21.440 So there was that case in Atlanta which sparked those massive BLM riots where a guy was, he

00:17:27.320 fell asleep, I think he was drunk, in a drive-thru.

00:17:30.020 When the officers showed up, he fought them and then stole their taser.

00:17:36.000 Yep.

00:17:36.180 So that, he was trying to flee, I think, when they shot him.

00:17:39.820 What, two cops, two cops.

00:17:40.740 Right.

00:17:41.560 It's hard to make an arrest to someone who doesn't want to be arrested.

00:17:44.860 So, yeah.

00:17:45.680 Been there before.

00:17:46.980 So, let's say this.

00:17:49.360 In that scenario, the guy steals the taser and begins to run.

00:17:52.880 Yep.

00:17:53.140 Can the police use deadly force against him now?

00:17:55.840 If he had just continued running, probably not.

00:17:58.900 But he turned and pointed his taser back at the officer.

00:18:02.620 And I know we think of tasers, and I'll defer to the officer here if he disagrees with what

00:18:06.320 I'm saying.

00:18:06.740 We think of tasers as a non-deadly force weapon.

00:18:09.860 Because we think of it as being used in a defensive capacity.

00:18:13.660 And when it's used in that way, it is non-deadly force.

00:18:16.600 But a defensive use of a taser or pepper spray, for example, is very different than an offensive

00:18:22.460 use.

00:18:22.960 An offensive use, you're trying to debilitate your victim, presumably not to stop as you

00:18:28.940 would in self-defense, but to continue to use force or predate on them in some way.

00:18:33.680 So, being debilitated, no longer able to defend yourself, to my mind, it's no different than

00:18:37.600 getting hit in the head with a baton and getting knocked unconscious.

00:18:40.560 You're helpless now.

00:18:42.060 So, an offensive use of these weapons to debilitate someone, I would characterize as deadly force,

00:18:46.400 meaning force likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.

00:18:49.780 So, let's go to the Carmelo-Anthony debate as it is.

00:18:53.840 As described, we have, you're an officer, or detective.

00:19:00.440 So, I'm curious.

00:19:01.200 At ease, gentlemen.

00:19:02.200 At ease.

00:19:03.080 Like, these police reports, how substantive are they in court?

00:19:09.240 Or does this not get used?

00:19:10.720 Like, you will need the statement from the officer and the witness.

00:19:13.240 Yes.

00:19:14.280 I'm actually really surprised that they put all this information up for my city.

00:19:20.620 These statements by these officers, it's called a P-73.

00:19:23.260 It's basically saying, hey, listen, you were involved in a homicide.

00:19:26.740 You showed up.

00:19:27.460 I need you to write this.

00:19:28.260 And that goes directly to the homicide detective.

00:19:29.780 It's not shared with the public.

00:19:31.960 This being shared with the public is huge.

00:19:33.820 I mean, the transparency is amazing.

00:19:35.220 And also, the work that these officers did is amazing.

00:19:38.160 I think it's a risk.

00:19:40.020 How so?

00:19:40.420 So, could this not prejudice a jury and be used by the defense to argue that information?

00:19:46.320 So, they released only select witness statements, despite the fact that you've got this list of witnesses.

00:19:51.540 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31.

00:20:09.660 31 witnesses.

00:20:10.800 And they've released statements of, like, three in these reports.

00:20:14.460 Yeah, it's a double-edged sword.

00:20:16.280 Like, one, you get transparency.

00:20:17.820 But two, you get everybody on the internet trying to make their own ideas of what's going on and what the police are hiding.

00:20:22.560 My department, those statements are held tight. 0.94

00:20:25.840 You don't get to get a look at that because of all the crap that can come up from it. 0.98

00:20:31.220 Double-edged sword.

00:20:32.600 But all those statements would be used in court.

00:20:35.000 And the only way to address that is in voir dire, is in jury selection.

00:20:39.120 And when the jurors are instructed, the judge will instruct the jurors who are only allowed to come to a verdict based on the evidence, the testimony, the law you get in the—I know, I know, I know.

00:20:49.860 And we also live in a world where there are no—you know, the jury's supposed to come in like a blank sheet of paper, knowing nothing about the case at all.

00:20:57.580 That's the ideal.

00:20:59.360 And in the past, you could get away with that.

00:21:01.500 But today, especially with any high-profile case, there is no juror who's not been exposed.

00:21:06.500 We get into this a lot when defendants want a change in venue.

00:21:10.940 They want the trial held in a different city or something.

00:21:13.240 And invariably, the judges look at them and say, where in this state—this happened with Derek Chauvin—where in this state do you think you could hold this trial that doesn't have the same level of exposure?

00:21:22.520 It's the internet.

00:21:23.580 It's not a local paper.

00:21:25.200 Well, I think Chauvin should have been released free and charges dropped.

00:21:29.340 Of course.

00:21:29.980 When the—so for those who are not familiar, when the judge said that, there is no venue in this state where you will be free from this, you know, prejudice.

00:21:39.440 It's like, okay, you're free to go.

00:21:41.420 That's my view as well.

00:21:42.700 If you cannot offer an impartial jury to someone entitled to an impartial jury under the Constitution, you cannot justly try that person.

00:21:51.120 Right.

00:21:51.200 The answer is not to try them unjustly.

00:21:53.580 Right.

00:21:53.720 The answer is you can't try them.

00:21:55.520 Would it make sense—I already have a general idea of what people are going to say to this, but would it make sense to change venue to a different state?

00:22:02.960 But you can't.

00:22:03.980 I mean, our structure isn't set up that way.

00:22:06.000 If it's a state crime, it has to be tried in that state.

00:22:08.120 The argument being those residents are not your peers.

00:22:10.680 Only those courts have lawful jurisdiction, have authority to hear that dispute.

00:22:17.520 Indeed.

00:22:18.340 Well, so then my question with this is, I feel like on the Internet, the right has largely made their determination.

00:22:25.460 In fact, I have a poll.

00:22:27.760 Let me see if I can pull this up.

00:22:28.800 Let me try and—I should have pulled it up earlier.

00:22:33.980 I asked what the penalty should be for Carmelo Anthony.

00:22:38.320 And this is among my followers, so, you know, take that into consideration.

00:22:43.660 With 55,939 votes, 42.3% said death penalty.

00:22:49.500 32.1% said life in prison.

00:22:51.740 18.5% said 25 years.

00:22:54.060 7.1% said less than 25 years.

00:22:57.180 I'm curious your thoughts, all of you guys, on—based on what we think we know happened from these reports and the witness statements,

00:23:06.380 what do you think is—like, what should be happening right now, and what would the penalty be?

00:23:12.300 What should be happening right now?

00:23:13.900 What do you mean by that?

00:23:14.940 Like, I'm not saying—I'm not saying if there is—like, what is the normal process by which the arrest happens?

00:23:20.820 Like, what should be playing out in the courts?

00:23:23.940 Like, how would this normally be—if it wasn't a high-profile case,

00:23:26.180 if there's, like, two kids in Chicago, what would be happening right now?

00:23:29.180 Like, they're going to go to pretrial hearings?

00:23:31.080 Like, what—

00:23:31.380 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:32.020 So, that's what will happen.

00:23:33.840 So, now he's been bailed out.

00:23:35.200 There'll be months and months and months of pretrial hearings.

00:23:38.100 There'll be in limiting motions to exclude certain kinds of evidence.

00:23:41.920 There'll be motions to bring in certain kind of expert witnesses.

00:23:45.140 Ideally, by the time the trial actually starts, by the time a jury is seated,

00:23:49.600 everybody should know—the lawyers should know exactly what legal arguments and what evidence is going to be presented.

00:23:55.560 There should be no surprises for them.

00:23:57.300 It's all supposed to be basically scripted out ahead of time.

00:24:00.640 The only thing that's happening in the courtroom, really, is it's kind of a theatrical presentation to the jury.

00:24:05.360 They're the ones seeing it all for the first time.

00:24:07.660 So, this—they call it preliminary hearings.

00:24:09.660 Like, preliminary sounds unimportant.

00:24:11.560 This is where the legal battlefield for that trial is being defined.

00:24:15.120 Like, it's like a football field being painted out.

00:24:18.780 This is where the rules are, what you're allowed to argue, what witnesses you're allowed to have.

00:24:23.440 This actually largely determines the outcome of the trial, all these preliminary hearings.

00:24:28.000 So, based on—we'll clarify your guys' view in a second, but, like, based on how you guys view what went down,

00:24:36.400 what do you think the penalty for Carmelo Anthony should be?

00:24:38.520 You know, I have to be honest.

00:24:41.360 I don't really do sentencing stuff.

00:24:43.560 Then what would your assumption be on what a court would prescribe for this crime?

00:24:48.340 Typically, it would be 20 to life.

00:24:49.980 20 to life?

00:24:50.840 Yeah.

00:24:51.160 Wow.

00:24:51.360 Often without possibility of early release.

00:24:53.800 So—

00:24:54.200 Wow.

00:24:54.840 Yeah.

00:24:54.960 But what does that really turn into?

00:24:56.600 Does it always actually—

00:24:57.720 If it's life without possibility of early release, you're in there forever.

00:25:00.640 Well, but 20 to life, right?

00:25:01.720 So, it varies a lot by states because different states have different rules about how much they can reduce it before you're eligible for parole.

00:25:09.660 Some, it's a third.

00:25:10.620 You only do a third, and you're eligible.

00:25:12.320 Yeah.

00:25:12.500 So, a 20-year sentence could be, you know, seven years, and then you're out.

00:25:16.100 What do you think?

00:25:16.740 You're the cop.

00:25:17.440 Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist, and I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.

00:25:27.520 Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.

00:25:32.540 I find that exciting, not unsettling.

00:25:35.940 There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks, whose audiences say,

00:25:40.460 Thank you for telling me I'm not crazy, but I don't really doubt my own sanity.

00:25:46.180 I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.

00:25:54.100 I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.

00:26:01.420 The gist is for people who know that being interesting starts with being interested.

00:26:06.660 Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.

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00:26:33.360 That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com. 0.96

00:26:37.860 Twenty-five to life, eligible for parole right now.

00:26:44.200 If they determined later on that it was like he went up to a group of friends and said, 0.99

00:26:48.240 I'm going to go over there and start some shit. 0.99

00:26:50.300 Life. 1.00

00:26:51.480 Probably.

00:26:52.220 Premeditation.

00:26:53.040 Premeditation.

00:26:53.580 I mean, it's Texas, so they're a little more heavy handed than New York, who has a catch and release program.

00:26:58.220 Ask me how I know.

00:26:59.080 And we're not fans.

00:27:02.580 Yeah.

00:27:03.000 Thanks, Governor Kathy Hochul.

00:27:05.140 And so if this is I mean, this is Texas in New York, I would I would say probably.

00:27:11.840 He'd be let out right away and they'd apologize to him pretty much.

00:27:14.200 They'd give him an iPad in a cell.

00:27:15.820 And here's a new knife.

00:27:18.940 Here's a new shiv. 0.99

00:27:20.040 And then they let him stab a corrections officer. 0.87

00:27:22.940 Yeah, I'd say like 20 to life, maybe maybe 20 to 40 years.

00:27:27.660 He'd probably get parole in about 15.

00:27:30.800 And and he'd be on the streets on parole for like, I don't know, 15, 20 years until probably 45.

00:27:36.300 He'd be clean.

00:27:38.520 Absolutely.

00:27:38.900 So how do you how do you how do you guys view this?

00:27:41.400 Like the story?

00:27:42.380 What happened?

00:27:43.580 What do you mean?

00:27:44.620 Like, how would you describe what happened based on what we know?

00:27:47.060 Just like and why it warrants 20 to 40 or 20 to life.

00:27:51.400 Like what happened?

00:27:52.840 Like, what do you think happened to high school students got into a momentary beef with each other?

00:27:56.980 One grabbed the other one and the other one stabbed him in the heart.

00:28:00.500 I don't think it's really much more complicated than that.

00:28:02.760 Yeah.

00:28:03.300 Yeah.

00:28:03.460 Do you think that I mean, we've all been to high school, right?

00:28:05.200 We've all got into fights in high school.

00:28:07.020 Well, I except none of us got stabbed in the heart.

00:28:10.840 But it's like it's the most common thing in the world.

00:28:14.020 Yeah.

00:28:14.340 Well, then, I guess it seems clear cut.

00:28:17.340 Except the stabbing part.

00:28:18.400 That's what I mean, my only and this kind of shifts the direction a little bit.

00:28:24.240 But I think when we look at the campaign and the amount of money that it's raised, what we've seen with campaigns like this is that they are driven by media sensationalism.

00:28:34.280 And so I wouldn't have expected a campaign to this campaign in that fact base level thing to raise nearly this type of money.

00:28:45.900 It's because of the outrage on the other side, particularly on the right, that I think is fueling this.

00:28:52.180 I think these donations is being fueled by people that are saying, look at what they're saying, what the right is saying in these scenarios where they allowed campaigns for Derek Chauvin and all these other people.

00:29:02.720 It was the same thing that drove Daniel Penny's.

00:29:05.160 The amount of money Daniel Penny raised, three point whatever million, was because the mainstream media immediately created a black and white narrative and ran with it.

00:29:13.820 And then the right.

00:29:14.840 These things are fueled by the media narratives around it.

00:29:17.740 Yeah.

00:29:17.900 I mean, no one's donating because they're calculating what they think the legal defense is going to cost.

00:29:21.940 And they want to make sure he has that much money.

00:29:23.440 Right.

00:29:23.720 Each individual is donating largely on an emotion driven basis.

00:29:27.600 Yeah.

00:29:27.720 I've read the comments.

00:29:28.660 Some of them are disgusting.

00:29:29.660 So we have a question from Chad Smith.

00:29:32.740 He says, Texas recognizes imperfect self-defense impact.

00:29:36.200 Well, unfortunately for Anthony, the version of imperfect self-defense that Texas recognizes is different than the rest of the country.

00:29:44.920 The rest of the country and what imperfect self-defense does is if you're convicted of murder, it mitigates the murder down to manslaughter.

00:29:51.380 So instead of looking at life, you're looking at 20.

00:29:53.820 Maybe you get out in seven, eight years.

00:29:55.580 You started as a 17 year old kid.

00:29:57.240 You're out in your mid 20s.

00:29:58.160 You still have a life to live. 0.88

00:29:59.520 Manslaughter sucks, but it's a lot better than a murder conviction. 0.94

00:30:02.900 And in most states, how imperfect self-defense works is you had a genuine fear of deadly force harm from somebody and you killed them in self-defense. 0.93

00:30:11.680 But your fear was objectively unreasonable.

00:30:14.680 It was kind of a panic reaction, for example.

00:30:16.840 That can't qualify as perfect self-defense and get you an acquittal because perfect self-defense has to be reasonable, but it can mitigate murder down to manslaughter.

00:30:26.400 So let's say there's like an old white guy and he's like seriously like 75.

00:30:32.200 I think we just had a case like this where an old white guy, a young black gentleman came up to his door.

00:30:37.600 That's what I was going to ask.

00:30:38.260 Yep.

00:30:38.720 He got into a car accident and he jogged up to the door to ask for help and he was injured and the old man feared this, panicked, think he was going to be robbed or whatever and shot the guy.

00:30:49.120 Yep.

00:30:49.720 Through the door, wasn't it?

00:30:50.780 I think it was through the door.

00:30:52.900 Well, in the case I'm thinking of, the young black man thought he was at someone's house to pick up his brother.

00:30:56.800 Oh, that was a different one.

00:30:57.620 Right, right.

00:30:58.020 That one.

00:30:59.020 That guy shot through the door.

00:31:00.000 Yeah, but that kid, like, the report for that is that he knocked on the door.

00:31:04.600 Yeah.

00:31:05.340 I kind of think he probably opened the door thinking like.

00:31:07.900 He definitely, he had his hand, he had his hand on the handle.

00:31:10.200 Yeah.

00:31:10.400 So how would that, so let's do that story because the one where the guy runs into the house, that was really sad.

00:31:15.200 He got into a car accident.

00:31:16.140 Yeah.

00:31:16.420 He was injured and he was jogging up to the house to get help because, you know, he needed to call somebody and they panicked and shot.

00:31:22.060 And that story that you mentioned where he went to the wrong house, how did that one play out?

00:31:27.420 The old man took a plea and then before he could be sentenced on the plea, he died.

00:31:32.320 Oh, wow.

00:31:32.860 Yeah.

00:31:33.660 Justice. 1.00

00:31:35.240 Cold bitch. 1.00

00:31:35.940 Oh, my gosh. 1.00

00:31:37.000 He just died of old age.

00:31:38.720 But that would be a classic case where the jury could believe, all right, this old guy, he legitimately had a fear of death from this young black man trying to get into his house, apparently. 0.67

00:31:47.620 But that fear was objectively unreasonable.

00:31:49.720 He should not, a hypothetical, reasonable and prudent person would not have had that fear.

00:31:54.840 Do y'all have any fears that with the selective release of information, the right could be being misled on what happened with the Carmelo Anthony case?

00:32:05.800 Everybody's misled in all these cases.

00:32:07.780 It's disinformation all day, especially from the media.

00:32:10.880 Everything the media says about any of these high-profile cases has to be presumed to be misinformation, to be false, to be lies, until proven otherwise.

00:32:20.820 The only thing that counts is the actual evidence, not how it's recounted or how someone describes it, the actual evidence.

00:32:27.420 So my concern is the adamant nature on the right that this is as we believe it to be.

00:32:35.580 My fear is you've got 33 witnesses who have not given statements or have, and we don't know what those statements are.

00:32:41.800 Sure.

00:32:42.060 What if 15 of those tell a completely different story and say that Carmelo tried fleeing and, you know, something like that?

00:32:50.400 I really doubt that's the case, considering the two witnesses that are presented in this.

00:32:54.400 But I do have a concern at the right is assuming that the—I believe it was—it's two—there's two witnesses that gave versions of the events that are available in this police report out of 35.

00:33:07.560 Right.

00:33:08.480 Listen, there is evidence I could develop that could make this self-defense or at least look a lot more like self-defense.

00:33:13.520 So if Austin Metcalfe greatly outweighed Carmelo Anthony, which could be the case, right?

00:33:19.400 They're reporting—

00:33:20.940 Well, right, so—

00:33:21.800 I'm suspicious of that weight number for Carmelo Anthony because I think it was from an outdated ID, and teenagers grow a lot, you know, over a short period of time.

00:33:30.360 But say there was a real disparity of size and strength, and Austin Metcalfe grabbed him and then said, I'm going to beat you to death.

00:33:37.740 Well, that's a different scenario then.

00:33:39.400 Then there may be a reasonably perceived eminent threat of deadly force harm, because deadly force harm doesn't just mean force that can kill you.

00:33:46.100 It means force that can cause you serious bodily injury, a maiming type of injury, a broken bone.

00:33:50.780 That would justify the use of deadly defensive force.

00:33:53.540 The trouble is we don't have any evidence like that yet.

00:33:57.040 And Carmelo Anthony himself, he says things to the police, and he does not say anything like that.

00:34:02.900 He doesn't say he was in fear for his life.

00:34:04.680 He doesn't say—recite any facts that would reasonably be perceived as a deadly force threat from Austin Metcalfe.

00:34:10.860 I think the quote from Officer Eduardo was—

00:34:15.680 He touched me.

00:34:16.780 He grabbed me.

00:34:17.740 I was—the first thing he said was, quote, I was protecting myself.

00:34:20.760 The next thing he said was, quote, he put his hands on me.

00:34:23.640 The next thing he said was, I'm not alleged.

00:34:27.180 I did it.

00:34:27.640 The next thing he says after that is, quote, he put his hands on me.

00:34:30.520 I told him not to.

00:34:31.940 Sounds like this kid grossly overestimated what he was allowed to do in that circumstance based on these things.

00:34:37.880 Well, for example, he definitely had a right to defend himself against the contact from Austin Metcalfe.

00:34:43.080 Austin Metcalfe was arguably committing simple battery.

00:34:45.940 That's a crime.

00:34:46.780 You can defend yourself against simple battery.

00:34:48.640 You just can't do it with deadly force.

00:34:51.020 So, to the point about the weight you were saying, according to the rest report, he's 5'9", 130 pounds.

00:34:58.140 That's a BMI of 19.1, I looked up.

00:35:01.260 But I got a—19.2.

00:35:02.360 But I got to be honest, 5'9", 130 seems really frail.

00:35:06.380 It does.

00:35:07.100 Unreasonably frail.

00:35:08.020 Very frail.

00:35:08.900 Yeah.

00:35:09.400 That's—

00:35:10.080 So, I agree.

00:35:10.560 I don't believe that's correct.

00:35:11.620 Yeah.

00:35:12.100 You know, 5'9", maybe 140, 150, maybe 150.

00:35:16.980 The arguments I've seen—

00:35:18.480 I mean, we're going to get an autopsy report eventually.

00:35:21.020 On Metcalfe.

00:35:22.960 On Metcalfe.

00:35:23.760 Right, right, right.

00:35:24.340 Right.

00:35:24.560 I believe already the statements were that he had, like, 30 pounds on him or something.

00:35:30.120 That's what the argument from the left has been, I think.

00:35:32.320 And listen, 30 pounds is a lot.

00:35:34.620 So, if you do any kind of combat sports, like wrestling or something like that, they separate

00:35:39.000 into levels by 8-pound gradations, right?

00:35:42.500 So, this would be—

00:35:43.320 Even less.

00:35:43.460 5 pounds.

00:35:44.000 Like, right.

00:35:44.640 Even less.

00:35:45.360 Yeah.

00:35:45.720 So, it can make a difference.

00:35:47.040 But we also have to consider the—what we call the—lawyers call the totality of the

00:35:51.700 circumstances.

00:35:52.200 This wasn't a back alley at 3 o'clock in the morning.

00:35:54.800 This was a crowded environment.

00:35:56.660 There's lots of people around.

00:35:58.520 It's hard to believe they're all going to stand there and watch Austin Metcalfe beat

00:36:02.760 Carmelo Anthony to death in front of them.

00:36:04.700 I mean, this is not going to end up being a sustained beating.

00:36:06.800 Well, I think, Tim, to what you were saying earlier about the right's reaction to this,

00:36:12.720 I think it points to this element that's running through society on both sides.

00:36:20.420 I, particularly because I thought, you know, I lean to the right, I'm conservative, that

00:36:26.540 these are some of my values in the campaigns and the support that we had, that the right

00:36:31.440 was just as principled as the left.

00:36:33.160 And what we've seen is the moment that the tables turn, all of a sudden, the same principles

00:36:39.280 of free speech, of presumption of innocence that they championed loudly for these other

00:36:44.920 cases, they've thrown out the window, literally just like, nope, I don't care about those

00:36:48.760 things.

00:36:49.440 It's fascinating to me.

00:36:51.120 And it just goes—to me, it's just like this narcissism, this pride that's developed

00:36:56.340 within our culture because we do have a phone and we think we have all the information at

00:37:00.380 our fingertips.

00:37:00.900 It's just—it's unfortunate.

00:37:03.720 I think it goes to deeper issues within our society.

00:37:07.200 But it's amazing to see it just as strong on the right as it was on the left and is

00:37:13.500 on the left.

00:37:14.020 So actually, the left is arguing, and I do not believe this is correct, that Austin Metcalf

00:37:18.680 was 6'1 and 225 pounds.

00:37:21.340 And that is, I'm going to go ahead and say absolutely false.

00:37:24.520 I've seen nothing to corroborate any of that.

00:37:26.880 But that's the viral claim all over the internet.

00:37:31.920 Newsweek says that his profile lists him as 6'0.

00:37:36.300 Really?

00:37:36.820 Newsweek is reporting he was 6'2 and 225.

00:37:38.980 He looks big in the picture.

00:37:39.480 This is Esther, host of Once Upon a Crime.

00:37:42.360 If you're fascinated by true crime and want a podcast that gives you the inside scoop

00:37:46.680 on some of the world's most cold-blooded true crime cases, subscribe to Once Upon a Crime.

00:37:51.860 Each week I cover a new case and give you the why behind the stories you hear in the news.

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00:38:01.900 like kids who kill, family annihilators, celebrity crimes, and of course, some of history's most

00:38:07.400 notorious murders.

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00:38:14.120 A heavyset kid.

00:38:15.620 Newsweek says Metcalf was listed on the Frisco Memorial High School huddle, he was listed

00:38:27.580 on huddle, as 6'2 and 225.

00:38:31.480 I thought he was 5'9 and 160.

00:38:35.540 That's what I had been seeing.

00:38:37.180 Newsweek says he was 6'2 and 225.

00:38:40.040 Regardless of what's true, certainly, the more there is a disparity of size and weight

00:38:46.660 and power, the more favorable it's going to be for Carmelo Anthony.

00:38:50.020 Yeah.

00:38:50.660 Did you guys know that that's what was reported?

00:38:53.280 I did not know this.

00:38:54.000 No.

00:38:54.580 Do you think that plays a role?

00:38:56.060 It plays a role, sure.

00:38:57.140 It's going to.

00:38:57.880 Does it change your view in any way?

00:38:59.320 No.

00:39:02.140 I just don't see it.

00:39:03.500 Again, if this was an alley at 3 o'clock in the morning and there's no bystanders and

00:39:06.540 you're worried about suffering a sustained beating by someone who outweighs you by 50

00:39:10.020 pounds, yeah, I could imagine that being a realistic track meet.

00:39:12.480 Not a track meet.

00:39:13.680 It's around about 500 people.

00:39:14.700 Not a track meet with families and fathers and mothers.

00:39:17.560 Again, they're not going to stand there and watch a beating to the death happen in front

00:39:21.340 of them.

00:39:22.200 If I'm not mistaken, I think there's a bunch of coaches.

00:39:24.240 There's like three videos that they've collected already.

00:39:26.800 Yeah.

00:39:28.740 Apparently, there's more than that.

00:39:31.180 A school track meet with high schoolers and their phones?

00:39:33.480 Yeah.

00:39:34.320 Probably live streamed it.

00:39:36.140 Yeah.

00:39:37.300 Interesting.

00:39:38.440 Yeah.

00:39:38.600 And they did grab everybody's phone.

00:39:40.060 The police did.

00:39:40.760 That's in the police report.

00:39:42.120 Well, they're definitely, this is what the defense is going to do.

00:39:46.540 Yeah.

00:39:46.840 This is what they have to do.

00:39:48.100 Again, they have to craft an answer to that question.

00:39:51.920 Was our client reasonably perceiving an unlawful, eminent threat of death or serious bodily

00:39:56.420 injury?

00:39:56.940 The answer to that has to be yes, in some form.

00:39:59.920 So they have to take the evidence and they have to, like Lego blocks, and they have to build

00:40:04.060 it into a narrative of innocence consistent with self-defense.

00:40:07.100 I will point out, it's not their job to prove self-defense.

00:40:10.900 It's the job of the prosecution to disprove self-defense beyond any reasonable doubt.

00:40:16.000 So the defense doesn't have to show to the jury, hey, we have 80% evidence it was self-defense,

00:40:21.020 or even 50%, or even 30%.

00:40:23.520 They just have to say, listen, there's a reasonable doubt this could have been self-defense,

00:40:27.580 and that's supposed to be an acquittal.

00:40:29.780 You know, having just learned that, again, what I had read before was that he was 5'9",

00:40:34.260 160, and I was like, oh, he's a high school athlete, so he's got some muscle on him, and

00:40:37.780 this kid's not, or whatever.

00:40:39.500 Six foot, I'm imagining a scenario where he's sitting under a tent, this big guy comes up,

00:40:45.640 and he thinks he's going to be justified in the event dude tries to touch him to use lethal

00:40:51.740 force because of the disparity in size.

00:40:54.440 And he could be right.

00:40:55.240 If there's a sufficient disparity in size...

00:40:57.380 What I mean to say is, I could be totally wrong on this.

00:41:01.200 I'm just saying, in my mind, what I see is Anthony sitting there, and when he sees this

00:41:06.100 big dude come up to him, he's thinking, if this guy tries to fight me, I'll be allowed

00:41:09.400 to use a knife.

00:41:10.460 He was thinking, like, I'm not going to try and run away.

00:41:12.740 I'm not going to de-escalate.

00:41:13.740 This guy can't touch me because I can do what I want.

00:41:16.180 It's certainly possible Carmelo Anthony believes that what he did was lawful self-defense.

00:41:21.080 I'm not saying that I think he thought in his mind what he was doing was self-defense.

00:41:24.660 Because I think he thought the perception of it...

00:41:26.800 Oh, how other people would perceive it.

00:41:28.860 Right.

00:41:29.720 Like, I don't have to get up.

00:41:30.840 This big dude can't push me around.

00:41:32.540 I'm allowed to use a knife because he's so big.

00:41:34.300 And then everyone else will agree that was lawful self-defense.

00:41:37.040 He might have been thinking...

00:41:37.840 I believe he felt disrespected because what we learned from the police report is that

00:41:41.560 either it was raining or about to rain.

00:41:44.020 And so I think he's like, I'm going to sit into this town.

00:41:48.000 I ain't standing in the rain.

00:41:48.620 And when the dude told him, he's like, you can't make me stand in the rain. 0.98

00:41:51.000 Who the F are you?

00:41:51.660 You can't tell me what to do. 0.99

00:41:52.760 And so he escalates it.

00:41:54.540 Well, that comes in with the provocation, which I think is going to be the massive hurdle

00:41:58.060 that the defense is going to have to overcome.

00:42:00.340 I disagree with this.

00:42:01.600 Ooh.

00:42:01.920 Yeah, I could understand if he said, touch me, I dare you.

00:42:09.060 I could understand if he said, touch me, I bet you won't.

00:42:14.080 You know, something like that.

00:42:15.960 But my perception of touch me and see what happens is 50-50.

00:42:20.360 I understand it could be perceived as a provocation or a warning.

00:42:23.580 And of course, the defense is going to say he was trying to appear tough and saying, do

00:42:28.000 not touch me.

00:42:28.640 So actually, I'll just, I'll ask you, like, where the line is.

00:42:33.460 Both of you view this as, it was a clear provocation to say that.

00:42:36.760 I think there's a strong argument that this was provocation with intent, that this is

00:42:40.560 akin to, go ahead, take a swing, and see what happens.

00:42:44.600 I understand your interpretation.

00:42:45.940 I think it's perfectly reasonable.

00:42:47.400 And I think reasonable people could disagree.

00:42:49.280 So each side is going to have to make their argument.

00:42:51.120 That's why I think it's 50-50.

00:42:51.960 I will say this, however.

00:42:53.580 Under Texas law, if it's decided it was provocation with intent, that obliterates.

00:42:58.640 Self-defense.

00:43:00.040 Obliterates it.

00:43:00.640 In fact, it's perfectly within the court's discretion to not give the jury a self-defense

00:43:05.400 instruction at all.

00:43:06.580 Wow.

00:43:07.100 If he decides that the only interpretation of the evidence is a provocation with intent.

00:43:11.020 The judge could say, this is provocation, self-defense arguments.

00:43:14.620 Provocation with intent.

00:43:15.880 In other words, not just provoke, like calling someone a name and trying to start a fight.

00:43:19.580 But so one way to lose self-defense is to be the initial aggressor, right?

00:43:24.600 Throw the first punch.

00:43:25.320 The other way is not to be the initial aggressor.

00:43:27.860 It's to get the other guy to be the initial aggressor by provoking him to throw the punch.

00:43:33.300 If you provoke with the intent of then using deadly force on someone, you're trying to

00:43:38.000 fabricate a deadly force self-defense scenario, that obliterates your claim of self-defense.

00:43:43.160 So if he said-

00:43:45.380 That would be the argument here, right?

00:43:46.480 He had the backpack.

00:43:47.300 He had his hand on the knife.

00:43:48.380 And he's goading the guy.

00:43:49.660 He's provoking the guy to do something so he'll have an excuse to stab him.

00:43:53.420 That's provocation with intent.

00:43:55.300 But I do think a lot of people in a lot of cases would argue that if you felt threatened

00:43:59.960 and put your hand on your gun and said, you know, something to the effect of, I will 0.99

00:44:05.800 shoot you. 1.00

00:44:06.180 Don't do it. 1.00

00:44:06.980 You don't want to find out what comes next.

00:44:08.540 It's a difference between self-defense, what you just described, and provocation with intent.

00:44:12.780 Provocation with intent, you're not actually scared of that person. 0.68

00:44:15.320 You're trying to provoke them to do something so you'll have an excuse to stab them.

00:44:18.680 So the challenge I see with that is, if he reached and grabbed the knife and said, hit 0.85

00:44:23.860 me, do it, come on, hit me, I would say that was premeditated murder.

00:44:28.060 You don't think there's a difference between what he said and what you just said? 0.96

00:44:30.660 When you tell someone, see what happens, the reason I do that is to threaten them not to

00:44:35.520 do it.

00:44:37.800 I don't, if I want someone-

00:44:39.360 In my mind, I would be saying, don't touch me or see what happens.

00:44:43.240 Not touch me and see what happens.

00:44:44.700 I feel like, touch me and see what happens is, what if he said, if you touch me, I'll 0.99

00:44:51.180 stab you? 0.96

00:44:52.960 I think, I still think that's different than telling someone, I know, I'm asking, like,

00:44:57.120 let's say he clarified his intention. 0.99

00:44:58.920 He said, if you put a hand on me, I will stab you. 0.99

00:45:01.180 To me, that's just a defensive statement. 0.99

00:45:03.260 I'm prepared to defend myself.

00:45:04.780 If you do this thing, if you cross this line, I'm prepared to use defensive force.

00:45:08.800 What does, when you say, see what happens, what is the expectation of what will happen?

00:45:13.400 There's going to be a defensive use of force consequence.

00:45:15.980 So why would you argue that doesn't qualify for it?

00:45:19.080 Because in one case, you're telling the person not to do the aggressive act, and in the other

00:45:23.200 case, you're telling the person to do the aggressive act.

00:45:26.040 I certainly understand the way you're saying it.

00:45:28.000 My view is largely just, there's a lot of people in this country who are going to say,

00:45:33.840 that's not a threat, that's a warning.

00:45:36.120 Like, I feel like if you went to Times Square-

00:45:37.480 And I'm sure that's how the defense will characterize it.

00:45:39.020 If you go to Times Square and you walk around and ask people, you're going to find 50-50,

00:45:42.440 they're going to be like, you're warning them.

00:45:44.300 And the other side are going to be like, you're provoking them.

00:45:45.920 It'll be a mixed reaction.

00:45:47.560 That's why I'm saying I don't see it as so clear as to call it immediate provocation.

00:45:52.140 Like, obviously, he should not have said that, because that's a tough guy statement.

00:45:55.640 Right.

00:45:55.820 I understand.

00:45:56.600 And I'm not saying you're wrong.

00:45:58.040 I think reasonable people can disagree on that point.

00:46:00.540 I just wanted to point out that if someone does conclude it was provocation with intent,

00:46:04.240 there is no self-defense here.

00:46:05.540 That'll be interesting.

00:46:06.400 The video evidence, I think, is where it gets really interesting.

00:46:11.940 What I think puts them in a weak position in terms of public opinion is,

00:46:16.740 if the video evidence showed what the family claims it did,

00:46:19.680 or if what happened happened the way the family claims it did-

00:46:22.040 Which family?

00:46:22.920 The Anthony family.

00:46:23.760 Okay.

00:46:23.960 They would be, in every press conference, saying, release the footage.

00:46:28.900 Coming from my experience with all the BLM stuff and all the riots, 1.00

00:46:31.960 if they genuinely believed that this would show a bully attacking their son,

00:46:38.980 they would say, you all know what happened to release the footage.

00:46:42.240 The Carmelo family.

00:46:43.280 Yes.

00:46:43.640 Well, they haven't seen the video either, almost certainly.

00:46:46.260 So my point is-

00:46:47.300 They would have talked to their son.

00:46:48.600 Yes.

00:46:49.320 Who was a witness, considering that he's the guy who did the act.

00:46:52.080 So I understand the legal ramifications of releasing evidence beforehand,

00:46:56.480 and I understand that there are circumstances where what scene could be interpreted as positive

00:47:02.840 or negative, or could be viewed as largely positive or largely negative.

00:47:06.380 I mean, the trouble is, it could be ambiguous, right?

00:47:09.400 We don't know what the video is going to show.

00:47:11.140 There are some fights where the evidence, if there's video evidence, it can only be one way.

00:47:15.320 Like the George Zimmerman fight, for example.

00:47:16.980 He was pinned on the ground, getting his head beat into a sidewalk.

00:47:20.780 And the police actually lied to him during interrogation.

00:47:23.420 They called them back in for another interview.

00:47:25.820 George came in without a lawyer again.

00:47:28.100 He never brought a lawyer with him.

00:47:29.520 Yes.

00:47:29.840 And they lied to him.

00:47:31.760 And they said, George, we have a big problem with your claim of self-defense.

00:47:34.860 And he said, what do you mean?

00:47:35.700 And they said, well, we found video of it.

00:47:38.680 And you know what George said?

00:47:40.940 He said, thank God.

00:47:43.340 Thank God you found video of it.

00:47:45.400 Because he knew the video could only show one thing.

00:47:47.900 Yeah.

00:47:48.280 But when it's more ambiguous, you might be reluctant if you're the parents of Carmelo.

00:47:52.920 No, they didn't.

00:47:53.300 They lied.

00:47:53.640 No, they lied.

00:47:54.240 Yeah, they're allowed to do that.

00:47:55.360 I just realized I made a huge mistake.

00:47:57.000 I'm not supposed to talk to cops.

00:47:58.720 I was instructed reasonably by my lawyer, you know, never talk.

00:48:02.280 Never, never.

00:48:03.060 Get him, boys.

00:48:04.640 I'll tell you this for sure.

00:48:05.740 Never talk to detectives.

00:48:07.740 Never talk to detectives.

00:48:09.080 So, does he got to go?

00:48:09.960 Can I share an anecdote about Zimmerman?

00:48:12.060 As a pro-pro here.

00:48:13.380 Yeah.

00:48:13.460 When George Zimmerman was first arrested and he was bailed out, he was given $150,000 bail.

00:48:19.060 He'd killed somebody, right?

00:48:20.100 He's potentially, he was ultimately charged with second-degree murder.

00:48:23.120 And he was released on $150,000 bail.

00:48:26.000 And then they did a fundraiser for him, not on your site, but on some predecessor site.

00:48:29.920 And they raised a ton of money, several hundred thousand dollars for him.

00:48:32.800 And the judge dragged him back in and raised his bail to a million dollars.

00:48:36.600 Oh, my God.

00:48:37.380 Because he got the group funding, he had a lot more assets now.

00:48:40.420 And conversely, we had the situation where Carmelo Anthony was first given a million dollars bail

00:48:46.040 and then had it reduced to $250,000 and now he's raised a bunch of money.

00:48:49.800 But that's $100,000 they put up, right?

00:48:51.800 When they say it's a million, it's a 10 percent?

00:48:53.400 If you get a bail bondsman, yes.

00:48:54.580 Yeah, it depends on the state.

00:48:55.960 You can front it yourself.

00:48:57.380 Either way, you get the money back if you show up to court.

00:49:00.100 But so in Texas, you actually need the million dollars.

00:49:03.600 Unless you go through a bail bondsman and then the bail bondsman fronts the million.

00:49:07.340 Interesting.

00:49:07.720 But you have to put down $100,000 to the bail bondsman.

00:49:09.600 There's some variance by state.

00:49:11.060 But normally the way it works is, say it's a million dollars.

00:49:13.620 If you go to a bail bondsman, you have to put up 10 percent of it.

00:49:17.140 You lose that 10 percent forever.

00:49:19.840 That's the fee to the bail bondsman.

00:49:21.780 If it's a million-dollar bond and you put up the million dollars yourself,

00:49:25.560 at the end you get the million dollars back.

00:49:27.940 Because I think in Illinois, bail bondsmans are illegal.

00:49:31.320 And so the state will say, $10,000 bond, you pay 10 percent.

00:49:37.140 That could be.

00:49:37.980 I think that's how it goes in Illinois.

00:49:39.440 And then you may actually get the money back.

00:49:41.440 They wanted to get rid of bail bondsmans, I guess, and, you know.

00:49:46.380 Bail bondsmen are the trouble, not the guys committing the crime.

00:49:48.940 Awesome.

00:49:49.580 That's why I never understood.

00:49:50.560 I'm like, why would you call it $10,000 but then ask me for $1,000?

00:49:53.220 That's the weirdest thing.

00:49:54.320 Liberal logic.

00:49:54.860 We have a thing called I-bond in Illinois.

00:49:59.780 So I got arrested for driving on a suspended license.

00:50:02.700 And that means I was pulled over, arrested, handed a piece of paper, and then told to get a ride home.

00:50:10.060 An appearance ticket.

00:50:11.160 Yeah.

00:50:11.520 And so he said, you've been arrested.

00:50:12.820 You've been processed.

00:50:13.760 You've been charged.

00:50:14.860 You have been I-bonded on your own recognizance.

00:50:17.220 Call someone to pick you up.

00:50:18.020 And so it's like they basically did the whole police department process but then didn't take me.

00:50:23.120 Although I do think, you know, as far as I'm concerned with that, the system is completely broken in oh so many ways.

00:50:34.020 And going back to what you were saying about George-

00:50:36.300 For which side?

00:50:37.780 For the innocent.

00:50:40.460 I'll go with that.

00:50:41.700 Yeah.

00:50:42.160 Which could mean cops too.

00:50:43.580 Oh, I think the victims of crimes are screwed over monumentally, especially in the state of New York.

00:50:49.360 I think – and to clarify my bigger picture on this, I overwhelmingly view – I think – and the libertarians are going to cry over this one.

00:50:56.020 I think the cops get screwed over more often than the cops screw people over.

00:50:59.500 But I believe – 0.78

00:51:00.120 Tim.

00:51:00.720 But I think it's true.

00:51:02.100 You're free to go.

00:51:04.600 But there are a lot of circumstances where people are wrongly penalized through the system.

00:51:12.320 And that has nothing to do with the cops, that people then confer onto the cops.

00:51:16.020 So I'll use my example.

00:51:18.360 The cop who pulled me over illegally pulled me over.

00:51:21.580 I have no means of – I was 20 years old.

00:51:24.940 There was no probable cause for pulling me over.

00:51:27.800 He ran my plate, saw that my name in the system had a suspended license.

00:51:31.920 So he pulled me over while I was not speeding, not even a mile over.

00:51:35.520 I was a mile from home at my mom's house.

00:51:38.620 He pulled me over, literally walked up and said,

00:51:40.420 Tim Poole, yep, you're under arrest.

00:51:41.740 Out of the car. 1.00

00:51:42.800 And when I tried arguing, they told me to go, fuck myself. 1.00

00:51:46.080 And so what should have happened is he couldn't pull me over for no reason. 0.99

00:51:49.540 He couldn't presume I was the driver of the car.

00:51:51.460 I shouldn't have gotten arrested.

00:51:53.120 And I had never received notice of a suspended license.

00:51:55.540 It had only just been suspended, and it had been suspended because I wrongfully received two fake tickets from cops because of quota systems.

00:52:02.440 So for me, this is what creates the prejudice.

00:52:06.040 That cop who pulled me over, I will criticize for the wrongful arrest.

00:52:12.160 But I was driving on a suspended license.

00:52:14.200 So the process after that, the machine of the state, they have no idea what's going on.

00:52:18.000 Just simply, you did it.

00:52:19.320 The cop saw you doing it.

00:52:20.400 There's a penalty for that.

00:52:21.280 And so I got, like, courts of provision and a $150 fine.

00:52:24.280 Did he give you, like, a preliminary ticket for, like, the reason for the stop?

00:52:26.980 All your taillights out, you swerved?

00:52:28.620 Nope.

00:52:29.000 Yeah.

00:52:29.380 Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist.

00:52:31.240 And I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.

00:52:38.880 Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.

00:52:43.860 I find that exciting, not unsettling.

00:52:46.820 There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say,

00:52:52.200 thank you for telling me I'm not crazy.

00:52:55.160 But I don't really doubt my own sanity.

00:52:57.500 I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.

00:53:05.420 I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.

00:53:12.300 The Gist is for people who know that being interesting starts with being interested.

00:53:18.260 Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.

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00:53:49.640 Some states are weird like that because the plate technically isn't your property.

00:53:54.360 It's on loan from the state, so you can run it.

00:53:56.660 And then you have like that gray area where it's your vehicle.

00:53:59.500 I can assume that you're the one operating it.

00:54:01.600 Yep.

00:54:01.860 And that's, like I said, it's that weird gray area.

00:54:03.900 You can't do that in Illinois because it could have been my mom driving. 0.77

00:54:07.080 Correct.

00:54:07.540 And then I illegally pulled her over. 1.00

00:54:08.500 I mean, the cliche is there's always probable cause when a vehicle's involved, right?

00:54:12.500 Because they can always make it.

00:54:13.740 You swerved a little bit or they can always come up with something.

00:54:17.240 Not to talk about myself.

00:54:18.260 You mentioned a story with George Zimmerman, and there's another story, and I have a question for you in this regard.

00:54:23.020 So they're trying to lie to Zimmerman, an innocent guy who is being mercilessly beaten and, you know, defends himself.

00:54:30.400 Yep.

00:54:31.320 Do they not care?

00:54:33.200 Like, what's your perspective as a detective in that scenario?

00:54:35.740 Like, what were those cops trying to do?

00:54:38.260 Trying to elicit more information, but in an inappropriate way.

00:54:42.840 Can you blame the cop for trying to get more from somebody that you think is not giving you the full story?

00:54:47.160 Like, especially if you have video and you know that additional things happened, I can't fault them for that.

00:54:51.760 However, I try not to lie.

00:54:55.580 It sets you up for failure in the long run.

00:54:57.060 Yeah.

00:54:57.140 It diminishes your connection, your rapport with the individual that you're trying to talk to.

00:55:04.460 It sets you up for you have to remember your own lie.

00:55:07.100 It can be tainted when it comes to you're on the jury trial or when you're on the bench and you're being cross-examined.

00:55:13.400 You know, it does not paint a positive picture.

00:55:16.240 Can it be used other times where it's been used and it's been fruitful?

00:55:19.040 Yes.

00:55:19.700 I personally stay away from it.

00:55:22.080 I got a question for you.

00:55:23.180 Yeah.

00:55:23.360 So you're in Buffalo.

00:55:24.900 Is that where you are?

00:55:26.340 New York's got pretty strict gun laws.

00:55:28.740 Oh, say it ain't so, except for me because I'm a cop, which is totally, totally fair.

00:55:33.320 So let's say, I mean, you're a detective, so you're not doing patrol stuff, I imagine, right?

00:55:38.380 No, not anymore.

00:55:39.040 But let's say you were, for whatever reason, and you pull over a little old lady because she didn't use her turn signal.

00:55:46.280 Yep.

00:55:47.480 She's 66, 67 years old.

00:55:50.340 And you walk up and you say, you know, I imagine, what do you say?

00:55:54.320 Like, do you know I pulled you over or what do you say, roll the window down or something?

00:55:56.900 Hey, how you doing?

00:55:57.620 Officer, hi.

00:55:58.620 You know I stopped you?

00:55:59.840 What if the woman immediately— 0.89

00:56:00.500 Because I wanted admission.

00:56:01.640 Right, yeah.

00:56:02.160 What if the woman immediately goes, I'm sorry, officer, I'm not sure, but I just want to make sure you're aware that I do have my gun on me and I do have my permit.

00:56:10.280 Okay.

00:56:11.380 It's a Pennsylvania permit for concealed carry.

00:56:14.500 What do you do?

00:56:16.720 You're two miles away from the border.

00:56:19.860 Me?

00:56:20.440 Yeah.

00:56:20.680 Well, that comes down to officer discretion.

00:56:21.960 And I've had similar scenarios where it's, believe it or not, young black men that are carrying with an out-of-state permit that's not recognized in New York.

00:56:28.860 And I've told them, all right, I'm going to take your firearm off of you.

00:56:32.640 I want you to step outside the car, keep your hands where I can see them.

00:56:34.740 Thank you for telling me.

00:56:35.560 I am very appreciative whenever they tell me there's a firearm in the car.

00:56:38.280 I remove the firearm.

00:56:39.500 I unload it.

00:56:40.540 Well, I'll—yeah, I usually remove it, unload it, or I'll put it in, like—I'll secure it in some form or fashion.

00:56:46.200 I'll continue the traffic stop, and then I'll go back to them and I'll say, hey, love the Second Amendment.

00:56:51.460 Glad you're carrying—you're carrying illegally.

00:56:53.420 Hopefully, if it could be any other cop in my city or the state of New York, if they determine that they're not so big on the Second Amendment like I am, they could arrest you and it would be a felony for unlawfully carrying a firearm, concealed carry, with intent to use because it's loaded.

00:57:09.420 And then what I do in that scenario is I give them back their—if I give them tickets, I give them tickets.

00:57:13.680 But when I return their firearm to them, I have them stay either on their front bumper or their back bumper, and I put their firearm unloaded, magazine unloaded as well.

00:57:23.360 So, like, even if you wanted to try and shoot me in a sneak attack, you'd have to load the magazine or put one bullet in, you know, in the slot and then—or in the barrel and then pop one round off at me.

00:57:34.240 And then I go about my business.

00:57:36.080 Do you tell them, like—

00:57:37.360 This is New York State law and educate them?

00:57:39.220 Leave now.

00:57:40.720 Yeah.

00:57:40.940 So the reason I bring that up is because there was this—there's this famous story in Jersey where, like, a 60-some-odd-year-old woman was going to Atlantic City, and in PA, she's got a concealed carry permit, and she had, like, a revolver of some kind.

00:57:52.780 Yeah.

00:57:53.100 She gets pulled over for some minor infraction, and then first thing she says was, I just want to make sure you're aware, I do have my gun on me and my concealed carry permit.

00:58:01.560 He arrested her, and she got charged with a felony, and she was facing four years in prison.

00:58:05.520 A young nurse, actually, I believe it was.

00:58:07.840 Just a couple miles over the border into New Jersey.

00:58:10.180 And, like, what's the point of those arrests?

00:58:12.120 Like, what's the point?

00:58:13.260 Like, we're all supposed to be mindless robots, and, like, there's no gray area when it comes to the law?

00:58:17.460 We've got to screw over the 60-year-old woman or the person with the job? 1.00

00:58:21.300 But this is the challenge because when you look at—so let's shift, like, to the Ahmaud Arbery case, which I adamantly believe that all of those men involved should be freed and apologized to and receive some compensation.

00:58:33.420 Travis and Gregory McMichael as well as William Roddy Bryan.

00:58:36.960 What was the point of everything they did?

00:58:41.020 If you look at the big picture on the Ahmaud Arbery case, for those that are not familiar, it's where the left claimed a guy was jogging and was lynched.

00:58:47.220 The real story is—and feel free to add more details—

00:58:50.340 Sure.

00:58:50.880 A guy who was a suspect in felony burglary was pursued and got into a fight with his pursuants, and one of them, during a scuffle over a shotgun, shot him, I believe, twice with a shotgun.

00:59:01.300 And all three—one guy—so it's the McMichaels and Bryan.

00:59:05.520 The Bryan guy wasn't with the McMichaels and was filming, and the McMichaels flanked in front of him and were standing outside their truck waiting for him.

00:59:12.860 And this, in my view, was like a huge travesty of justice.

00:59:17.100 You know, you see these cases, and you're like, why did these guys get arrested?

00:59:19.860 And it's for political reasons.

00:59:22.160 Yes.

00:59:22.840 The fear is that BLM will riot.

00:59:24.980 Right.

00:59:25.780 So I don't know if you wanted to elaborate before we move on into the bigger picture on that regard, on the Ahmaud Arbery case or, like, what your views are.

00:59:31.940 Very much the same.

00:59:32.760 What went wrong there in that case that was the miscarriage of justice was Georgia had a very generous citizen's arrest law.

00:59:40.660 It was a very old citizen's arrest law.

00:59:42.360 It was passed right after the Civil War.

00:59:44.040 Had never been updated.

00:59:45.140 Had never been changed.

00:59:46.460 But it allowed for the pursuit of someone you reasonably believed had just committed a felony, which they had reason to believe.

00:59:53.560 They saw Arbery come out of this house.

00:59:55.640 There was, by the way, surveillance video of security cameras inside the house, which was under construction at the time,

01:00:01.280 of someone who looked exactly like Arbery, wandering around inside the house at night and under occasions.

01:00:06.420 Property had been stolen before.

01:00:08.000 Which, real quick, burglary does not require theft.

01:00:10.760 Correct.

01:00:11.080 It's an unlawful entry into, in Georgia, any structure, a tool shed would qualify with the intent to commit a felony.

01:00:19.360 I will add to that.

01:00:21.000 Misdemeanor burglary in Maryland, it could be as simple as walking over a piece of dental floss.

01:00:27.000 Yeah.

01:00:27.160 So it was very easy, relatively speaking, to commit burglary in Georgia.

01:00:31.200 If you create a barrier of any sort to your property and it is passed over, that's burglary.

01:00:37.460 So we dealt with this when we had someone.

01:00:40.120 So we set up no trespassing signs at our old studio.

01:00:44.680 And everybody violated it. 0.51

01:00:46.520 Like, crazy people.

01:00:48.000 And so, eventually, we're like, you know, a guy walked in the house.

01:00:53.500 And then, this is a whole fiasco.

01:00:56.540 We talked to the police, and they advised us to hang a plastic chain across the driveway, because now it's a misdemeanor burglary if they walk past it.

01:01:06.140 And so that's what we ended up doing.

01:01:07.660 And it stopped everything.

01:01:08.960 People would stop at the chain, but nobody would cross it.

01:01:11.920 Crazy.

01:01:12.740 So in Arbor, the citizen's arrest statute, there was some ambiguity to it.

01:01:16.460 It was a little unclear.

01:01:17.500 It could go one way or the other.

01:01:18.840 And there's a legal doctrine called the doctrine of lenity, meaning if there's ambiguity in the statute, it's to be interpreted in favor of the defendant, not in favor of the state.

01:01:28.040 The state wrote the statute.

01:01:29.500 They could have written it without the ambiguity.

01:01:31.500 That's on them.

01:01:32.360 And so, to the extent there was ambiguity in the citizen's arrest statute, the judge should have told the jury they're obliged to interpret the statute favorably to the defendant under the doctrine of lenity.

01:01:44.240 Instead, and the defense asked the judge to do that.

01:01:46.700 And the judge said, no, I'm just going to let the jury decide what the statute means.

01:01:50.800 And that's not the role of the jury.

01:01:52.560 The jury is the finder of fact.

01:01:54.440 They determine which facts they deem to have been proven or not proven.

01:01:58.260 The judge determines what the law is.

01:02:00.480 And when the judge didn't do that, the judge didn't do his job.

01:02:03.600 And if you're asking a jury of laypeople to do a legal interpretation of a 150-year-old statute, that cannot be justice.

01:02:12.140 Now, maybe if the judge had given the correct instruction, they would have gotten convicted anyway.

01:02:17.500 But because he didn't, I cannot have any confidence that those convictions are legitimate.

01:02:22.760 And by the way, when we think of the criminal justice system, and feel free to disagree if you like, detective, but we have to keep in mind, look at those three words.

01:02:30.480 Criminal justice system.

01:02:31.740 The first thing it is, is a system.

01:02:33.920 That's the most controlling word.

01:02:35.440 It's a machine for the adjudication of criminal law.

01:02:38.400 And the second most powerful word is criminal.

01:02:40.920 It's optimized for dealing with criminals.

01:02:43.240 It does not do well with people who are not criminals.

01:02:46.100 So this is interesting.

01:02:47.460 Here's what happened.

01:02:48.180 Here's the law.

01:02:49.580 The Georgia, the Georgia citizens arrest law.

01:02:53.280 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.

01:02:59.440 If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

01:03:07.500 And so the issue at hand was, is this a single declaration of what you must do or two separate?

01:03:15.040 So what the defense, what the prosecutors argued is, a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed within his presence or within his immediate knowledge.

01:03:23.620 If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, they may arrest him on probable grounds of suspicion only if it happened in their presence or with their knowledge, immediate knowledge.

01:03:34.140 That was the ambiguity.

01:03:35.480 And so.

01:03:35.880 This is another way to interpret that, right?

01:03:37.540 The first way is that the first half of that is like for a misdemeanor offense.

01:03:41.360 Before we're going to let you interfere with someone over a misdemeanor, it had to have happened in your presence, right?

01:03:46.020 But if you have reason to believe they committed a felony, we're not going to require that and we'll allow for pursuit.

01:03:51.300 Yes.

01:03:51.560 And I think any reasonable person knows the first sentence and the second sentence are separate.

01:03:58.040 You may arrest an offender if they've committed, if the offender, okay, a person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence with his immediate knowledge.

01:04:06.740 However, comma, if the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping, both, right?

01:04:12.840 You need only reasonable suspicion.

01:04:14.260 And the reason that makes sense is if you're standing in a shopping mall and a guy runs past you with a gun running full speed and then you hear someone yell like, oh, my God, he's been shot.

01:04:26.180 Right.

01:04:26.820 You are allowed to stop that person.

01:04:28.900 But Georgia removed that. 0.96

01:04:30.400 And they said, no, no, no, it's all one.

01:04:32.600 The judge, I believe the judge told the jury, you figure it out.

01:04:35.100 That's exactly what happened.

01:04:36.400 And the jury was like, okay, I got it.

01:04:37.580 So there's two interpretations there.

01:04:39.180 And the judge could have picked one or he could have picked the other.

01:04:41.600 And that would have been within his privilege to do that.

01:04:43.400 And then that could have been appealed.

01:04:44.600 But instead of doing his job and drawing a line in the sand and picking one or the other and telling the jury what the law meant, he just let the jury decide what the law meant.

01:04:54.360 And that's simply injustice.

01:04:57.460 Indeed.

01:04:58.480 So going back to Carmelo, Anthony, I was saying early on, and some people disagreed, I think there will be riots.

01:05:05.120 I think like Chauvin and with the Ahmed Arbery case, you were mentioning this before, that the protesters were outside screaming.

01:05:12.180 Is that what happened?

01:05:12.640 They were screaming essentially death threats that could be heard inside the jury deliberation room during deliberations.

01:05:19.220 And all these jurors, you know, their names are typically kept confidential during the trial of these highly controversial cases.

01:05:25.040 But ultimately, every jury knows they're told, eventually your name will be released.

01:05:29.760 And if they vote for acquittal, that verdict has to be unanimous.

01:05:33.400 It means every single person voted to acquit.

01:05:36.180 And if the defendants have been demonized as these kind of horrible racist monsters for a year or more, 0.83

01:05:41.220 and everyone believes that to be true, then everyone's like, how could you possibly have voted to acquit these horrible racist monsters? 0.88

01:05:48.060 And they get violent. 0.89

01:05:49.800 Or you at least have to fear the potential for violence.

01:05:53.060 What do you guys think is going to happen?

01:05:55.160 Well, I think you make a great point.

01:05:56.940 So there's really, to my mind, three layers to these things, right?

01:05:59.480 There's the evidence, there's the law that you apply to the evidence, and that's what I do for a living, is that legal analysis.

01:06:05.880 By the way, good time to mention my book.

01:06:07.800 If you like the stuff I talk about, we give this book away for free, for free.

01:06:12.160 We just ask you to cover the cost of shipping it to you.

01:06:15.260 Lawofselfdefense.com slash Tim.

01:06:17.220 This is an offer for all you Tim Poole people.

01:06:20.140 Lawofselfdefense.com slash Tim.

01:06:21.600 But there's the evidence, there's the law, and then there's the third layer, which is the human layer.

01:06:27.480 That's why I never predict verdicts, because juries are dangerous and unpredictable creatures.

01:06:32.600 And that's where a weak defense can make up a lot of lost ground if they can make a compelling argument to the emotions of the jury

01:06:39.320 that's completely independent of the evidence and the law.

01:06:42.540 So real quick, ladies and gentlemen, for everybody watching on Rumble, we're going to be rating Jeremy Hambly at the quartering.

01:06:48.500 And so we'll send you guys over there to hang out and watch.

01:06:51.260 Of course, this show will still be live for one more hour for those that want to keep watching the discussion and debate.

01:06:55.540 And I want to get into, you know, views on policing.

01:06:58.760 And I'm really interested in, I want to get in, like, I'll understand your thoughts,

01:07:03.240 like if you were dealing with the aftermath of a case like this or actually in a use of force circumstance.

01:07:08.160 But make sure you smash that like button, share the show, subscribe to the channel.

01:07:10.980 And let me initiate that raid for our good friend Jeremy over at the quartering.

01:07:15.660 And then we will continue here.

01:07:18.040 So the first thing is, there's a, I was mentioning before that I often think police are wrongly,

01:07:27.780 I don't want to say persecuted, but wrongly, largely inconvenienced and mistrusted on a lot of issues.

01:07:34.600 And I refer to this as the scaling problem.

01:07:36.720 If you have 100 police interactions in a city, just 100, and in that one guy dies under debated circumstances,

01:07:45.900 that's a contentious issue and it will be debated, but people largely move on and nobody blames the police.

01:07:51.220 That's 1% death rate in police interactions.

01:07:54.200 If you have 300 million police interactions and nine people die in a year, those nine stories turn into national endeavors,

01:08:04.820 which creates an entire movement.

01:08:06.540 That is a microscopic percentage of failure.

01:08:09.700 So the more a system grows, the less tolerance there is for failure.

01:08:16.220 So what I think we end up seeing is police are being overly constrained because of fears that, once again,

01:08:24.060 if in this country you only had 100 police officers, one for every big city of a certain size,

01:08:28.860 and only one person had died, well, one person died, it's just one person.

01:08:35.200 But when you get nine deaths in one year, it becomes a pandemic of racist violence

01:08:39.520 because now you have every month almost a new story emerging in the press,

01:08:43.760 and then people are on social media and that's all they see.

01:08:47.320 And when this was going down, I think the head of the police union in New York said,

01:08:51.320 we have 300 or so million interactions and they're overwhelmingly fine.

01:08:56.140 I mean, some people get mad that they got a ticket, but nobody's acting like the cops murdering you.

01:09:01.700 Right.

01:09:01.840 So this becomes a narrative, right? 0.96

01:09:03.200 It becomes, oh my God, the police are killing a young black man every month or every week or whatever.

01:09:09.220 It was nine.

01:09:09.780 Like it's a deliberate malicious process that's happening.

01:09:12.880 Right.

01:09:13.180 So that being said, there certainly are instances of bad cops doing bad things.

01:09:18.480 There was a cop, I think it was like South Carolina, where he did shoot a man in the back who was fleeing on foot.

01:09:22.520 It was not a threat.

01:09:23.240 Oh yeah. 0.98

01:09:23.480 The fat cop. 0.97

01:09:24.180 Yeah. 0.99

01:09:24.480 Yeah, don't be the fat cop. 0.82

01:09:26.920 Didn't want to run.

01:09:28.680 The first thing I'm thinking is, you know, as a detective, you get called to an instance like what happened with Carmela Anthony.

01:09:35.640 What are you thinking?

01:09:36.620 What do you do?

01:09:37.340 Like, how do you handle that situation?

01:09:38.480 You got to rely heavily on your, the lieutenant that's in charge of the shift.

01:09:43.040 This is Esther, host of Once Upon a Crime.

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01:10:16.320 You're a sergeant, whatever, and you have to dictate a lot of, or not dictate, what's it called, where you're like the head, disperse.

01:10:25.300 No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:10:27.780 Oh, I'm blanking on the word.

01:10:29.320 Whatever.

01:10:30.760 Where you have to like have patrol take care of different things because you've only got so many hands and eyes.

01:10:35.880 Dispatch?

01:10:36.740 No.

01:10:37.300 Delegate.

01:10:37.780 Thank you.

01:10:38.260 Big words.

01:10:39.120 Hard for army guy.

01:10:40.240 You know.

01:10:40.500 There you go.

01:10:40.880 You know, if I wanted to read, I would have joined the Air Force.

01:10:43.680 So when you're, you really have to focus on delegation.

01:10:47.500 And the other thing that you have to do is immediately you have to know who the witnesses are and where they are and separate them.

01:10:52.000 The importance of separating a witness is key because what you don't want is you don't want one witness talking to another witness and then changing their individual point of view.

01:11:00.000 Because even if you say, well, Tim stabbed him and Tim was wearing a brown beanie.

01:11:05.760 And somebody goes, well, he was wearing a black beanie.

01:11:08.100 And then, well, inconsequential, right? 1.00

01:11:11.100 You're wearing a fucking hat. 1.00

01:11:12.980 But two people start talking. 1.00

01:11:16.040 One wonders, oh, geez, which one was it?

01:11:17.760 Well, what else don't I know?

01:11:19.220 So the important thing is you always want to separate your witnesses so that way you can get a clear, non-diluted picture of what they saw without any sort of other interpretation or something being thrown in there.

01:11:32.900 Yeah, we call it witness contamination because the witnesses, when they get to court, you want them testifying from their own personal knowledge of what happened.

01:11:40.180 But if you leave them in a group and people are talking to each other, they're contaminating each other's recollections.

01:11:45.120 And it's impossible for a witness to later on.

01:11:47.820 That becomes their own memory.

01:11:49.480 Yeah.

01:11:49.660 So it's impossible for them to later on, like, take apart that ball of yarn.

01:11:53.740 Yeah.

01:11:54.520 Evidence collection is huge, too.

01:11:56.500 I mean, it was about to rain.

01:11:57.880 It was raining.

01:11:58.740 Right.

01:11:59.080 Throwing stuff all over the place to try and take.

01:12:00.940 The amount of officers in that statement that they write that are like, I pulled out my department-issued camera and I took photos.

01:12:08.680 Yeah.

01:12:09.380 Brilliant.

01:12:10.160 Brilliant.

01:12:11.220 So there's reportedly video.

01:12:14.240 Yes.

01:12:14.620 Would the officers have asked to watch the video?

01:12:16.940 Oof.

01:12:17.520 That, they can.

01:12:19.500 Right?

01:12:19.900 It's not somebody, this kind of goes into, like, similar to, like, Miranda writes.

01:12:23.500 If you're not suspected of a crime, you're not detained, these things matter.

01:12:27.180 Right?

01:12:27.440 But if you're somebody that says, hey, I'm a witness, I'm freely giving you my phone, I have video of it.

01:12:32.760 Obviously, the officer can ask, and most of the time, most departments have body cams.

01:12:36.860 It's recorded that, yes, I'm allowing you to look at my camera.

01:12:40.760 And you can view it.

01:12:41.760 Now, once those officers view it and there is evidence, whether it be photo or video, that has to then be collected.

01:12:47.700 So, Tim, you come up to me, I've got video, sweet, I'm going to have to hold on to your phone for a minute until I can talk to a detective or one of our evidence collection team members, and then they're going to pull that video from your phone, get your information from it.

01:13:02.340 Because a lot of this...

01:13:02.900 They give you your phone back, right?

01:13:04.440 Maybe not on scene, eventually.

01:13:06.660 Maybe not right away.

01:13:07.980 You're buying a new phone.

01:13:09.260 Right.

01:13:09.540 This is the challenge.

01:13:10.140 I mean, for a lot of people, you can't do that.

01:13:13.000 Like, it's hard enough to transfer to a new phone, but if you don't have your old one, you will lose a lot of important information, images.

01:13:21.540 So, I feel like this is a deterrent.

01:13:22.820 People are going to be like, I ain't saying nothing.

01:13:24.180 I didn't say anything.

01:13:25.860 That being said, like, we use, in my department, we use Axon.

01:13:30.100 So, I can literally send you a text message from my department phone, which I have Axon access, and you can upload the video right then and there, and I don't need to take your phone.

01:13:38.960 I might ask you if you have any other additional photos, but that's it.

01:13:43.900 So, in a situation like this, where there's so many phones, I mean, I'm kind of guessing here, but I would expect that police would be more likely to look at a video on scene when there's, like, one video, and it may determine what their next step is.

01:13:57.180 Like, are they going to make an arrest or not make an arrest?

01:13:59.400 Huge.

01:13:59.680 Here, you got a dead person.

01:14:01.100 You're making an arrest.

01:14:02.080 That guy's getting arrested.

01:14:03.060 There's no question.

01:14:03.820 There's no decision-making that really needs to be made, right?

01:14:06.300 And you have so many phones that you're going to want to have your leisure to look at all of those.

01:14:12.920 We're not going to look at them all on scene.

01:14:15.300 The reason why I asked is because, I suppose the next question I have is, when you issue a, like, they arrested Anthony, and they listed a charge for his arrest.

01:14:26.520 Correct.

01:14:27.180 That's a determination the police can make right there on the spot?

01:14:29.720 So, yes, I work mainly in the special victim, mainly.

01:14:33.480 I am a special victims unit detective.

01:14:34.940 I'm not yet on homicide.

01:14:36.000 What's that?

01:14:36.340 Like the show.

01:14:37.080 Dude, when I first got on SVU, and I would, like, talk to new people, I'd be like, yeah, I'm an SVU detective, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, and I do my own music.

01:14:45.180 But a lot of times we will, and this actually happened the other day, I had an individual that came in for a sexual assault on a child, and I had the option.

01:14:58.640 Do I start the ticking clock to where I have to give everything to the district attorney's office to where they can follow the ridiculous discovery laws in New York State or by arresting him?

01:15:13.660 Once you arrest him, hey, you're in handcuffs, you are under arrest, I'm putting charges on you, that ticking clock starts.

01:15:19.380 Or can I have an indefinite period of time to conduct my investigation by saying, okay, thanks for coming in and talking to me.

01:15:27.500 I know what you did.

01:15:28.580 I've got statements from other people.

01:15:30.140 I've got video of what you did.

01:15:32.540 But I'm going to let you go today, and I'm going to let, I'm going to have my conversation with the assistant district attorneys that run that specific case.

01:15:39.000 And eventually we may indict you or we'll pick you up later, which is very difficult to tell victims of sexual abuse.

01:15:46.160 Hey, we need to make sure that we have to nail this guy to the wall, which means even though I just talked to him, even though you told me what happened, even though there's physical evidence and you went to the hospital to retrieve it, I have to let him go.

01:16:00.080 But what about the fear that they offend again?

01:16:03.140 That happens.

01:16:03.960 Well, I mean, do people offend again?

01:16:06.540 Yes.

01:16:06.900 Now, is that individual going to offend again immediately right away?

01:16:10.100 Those numbers are so extremely low.

01:16:12.020 Right, because they're thinking, I'm caught, I better. 0.98

01:16:13.900 Yeah, I'm screwed.

01:16:14.580 The reason why I asked is because we had a conversation on the Anthony case earlier in the week, and I said, based on the fact that we know that there's video and that they didn't charge him on the weapon, so I don't think it's a felony murder rule. 0.90

01:16:30.940 And the presumption is, I assume these cops saw some of these people's video footage, that they decided to charge him on first-degree murder because they actually, they believe, like, this guy did it.

01:16:43.200 Mm-hmm.

01:16:44.580 I'm curious if you would agree with that, or I'm just—

01:16:46.800 I'm—if they did see the video, it would be on the report that we looked at earlier.

01:16:51.700 They would have said it.

01:16:52.260 Because there's statements of, I did this at this time, then I did that, which is huge, and I think every department, not just Texas, has to do that, where it's some sort of statement regarding what you did specifically on a homicide scene.

01:17:05.120 I mean, if one of them looked at a phone and said, I saw the video, that would be in the statement.

01:17:11.340 I haven't seen anything that says that yet.

01:17:12.920 Right.

01:17:13.540 Because I'm curious, is there a circumstance where the police charge him with first-degree murder thinking maybe it's not a first-degree murder?

01:17:21.080 Were they intentionally overcharged?

01:17:22.720 Yeah.

01:17:23.660 Intentionally overcharging is not a good look.

01:17:25.860 Intentionally undercharging is good.

01:17:27.540 And you'll be able to speak to this when it comes to misdemeanors and felonies.

01:17:31.480 Misdemeanors, if you don't have an eyewitness person writing down a supporting deposition or a statement, you can't arrest for a misdemeanor.

01:17:40.460 Within like five or six days, the first trial will be thrown away for insufficient evidence.

01:17:44.460 However, a felony in New York State, you can go with reasonable suspicion.

01:17:48.300 So hearsay would be involved.

01:17:49.860 You heard from him that he was sexually assaulted, and you told me that.

01:17:54.400 And what you told me from his statement to you is that it was felonious, right?

01:17:59.300 It was whatever it was.

01:18:01.140 It was a felony.

01:18:02.600 I can effect an arrest from that and then have a felony trial later on just on your hearsay.

01:18:08.380 But that can't happen from a misdemeanor.

01:18:10.500 So there's –

01:18:11.240 It's a probable cause standard to make the arrest?

01:18:13.260 Yes.

01:18:13.600 Right.

01:18:13.920 So in theory, probable cause, what it's supposed to mean is someone's applying their judgment to the evidence they have before them,

01:18:20.600 and it's more likely than not, it's probable that the person committed the crime – in fact, the threshold is way below that, way below that.

01:18:27.660 People get arrested on much less evidence all the time.

01:18:30.780 But you can think of the police charging as almost like a preliminary charge because the moment it ends up at the DA's office,

01:18:36.620 they're doing a completely independent assessment of the evidence.

01:18:39.860 They're not bound by anything the police said.

01:18:42.180 It's as if the police hadn't made a charge at all.

01:18:44.380 It's just the police have to charge you with something if they want to arrest you.

01:18:47.100 And then the prosecutor is going to look at the evidence and come to their own assessment of whether or not they think probable cause exists for maybe a different crime,

01:18:54.460 maybe the same crime, maybe a more serious crime.

01:18:56.780 It's within their discretion.

01:18:58.020 This is the interesting thing, right?

01:18:59.040 Like, murder is obvious.

01:19:01.720 There's a guy on the ground.

01:19:02.660 He's dead.

01:19:03.060 There's a guy standing over with a knife.

01:19:04.260 The cops are like, I'm going to arrest this guy, right?

01:19:06.200 It looks like murder.

01:19:07.260 Well, the cops, the patrol officers there are, I'm going to detain him.

01:19:10.160 An arrest isn't made until the detective states that he wants to put charges on him.

01:19:13.180 Interesting.

01:19:13.460 And then the official arrest is when he's booked down to whatever central booking, holding center, et cetera.

01:19:19.600 So he's detained at that moment, maybe not under arrest.

01:19:22.900 I have tried explaining this to people.

01:19:24.380 They don't get it.

01:19:25.780 Leftist activists think the moment a cop stops you, you've been arrested.

01:19:29.040 No, you've been detained.

01:19:29.820 And they also don't know that you can be arrested but later released without being processed.

01:19:34.200 Correct.

01:19:34.620 If the detective or whoever's supervising says, we're not going to do this.

01:19:37.680 Yes.

01:19:38.480 So what was I going to say?

01:19:41.260 Oh, yes.

01:19:41.780 The question I had is, one thing I never quite understood is, if it's a white collar crime,

01:19:47.540 how does a cop make that arrest?

01:19:50.620 If somebody, if like a little old lady is saying, that man just committed wire fraud,

01:19:55.920 he just took all of my money.

01:19:57.520 Like, let's say a sneaky guy goes to a woman's house, tricks her, defrauds her into transferring

01:20:03.180 money from her bank to his bank account.

01:20:05.160 And then he's walking away, having stolen everything from her.

01:20:08.120 The police show up and she's like, stop that man.

01:20:10.160 He's just stole my money through an app.

01:20:13.240 You couldn't arrest him, could you?

01:20:14.700 You could still detain him because you have the victim is right there and an eyewitness

01:20:18.800 to the crime that had occurred.

01:20:20.240 And then he just says, not the civil issue.

01:20:21.660 We did a trade and she regrets it.

01:20:23.400 Boom.

01:20:23.620 It depends on what evidence you can develop, you know, I mean, if all she has is her words.

01:20:28.200 Yeah.

01:20:28.580 So, so this is where it gets weird.

01:20:30.460 Welcome to my world, man.

01:20:31.680 Right.

01:20:31.880 Let's say he's got a, uh, he's got a purse with a stack of, you know, a hundred.

01:20:36.240 He has a purse?

01:20:36.880 Yes.

01:20:37.280 How 20, 25 of you?

01:20:38.320 No, no, no.

01:20:38.960 The woman says, that's my purse. 0.86

01:20:41.040 It's got a hundred grand in it.

01:20:42.700 He's calmly walking.

01:20:44.620 Cop arrives and he says, this is not correct.

01:20:47.600 I just sold her a collector's baseball cover of a hundred thousand.

01:20:50.740 She's lying.

01:20:51.360 And then do they just give the purse back?

01:20:55.500 Like how would a situation like that be handled?

01:20:56.940 If it's, if, if the accusation from the person robbing the woman, it's, it's a civil matter.

01:21:00.600 Bro, you're, you're burying me here in what ifs, right?

01:21:03.720 I know.

01:21:04.040 That's very, it's very difficult.

01:21:05.620 Right.

01:21:05.820 If I really wanted to, you're throwing this on me and I, let's just say that that's all

01:21:10.600 the information that I have.

01:21:11.600 Like that's it.

01:21:12.440 Where I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

01:21:15.220 Guess what I'm going to do?

01:21:16.780 Nothing.

01:21:17.300 Oh no.

01:21:17.700 I'm going to take that person, that money.

01:21:18.980 I'm going to put it in his evidence.

01:21:20.420 Wow.

01:21:20.780 Hey, guess what?

01:21:21.320 Nobody gets it until I figure it out.

01:21:22.780 You know?

01:21:23.320 Yeah.

01:21:23.480 Was it King Solomon cut the baby in half?

01:21:25.140 Yeah.

01:21:25.640 Yeah.

01:21:26.200 Hey.

01:21:26.760 That's brutal.

01:21:27.240 We'll figure this out in litigation.

01:21:28.920 You gave up the money.

01:21:30.360 You got it.

01:21:31.360 Well, whoever's money it is, is going to stick around the longest.

01:21:34.400 Did you guess what?

01:21:35.000 It's in a safe spot.

01:21:36.320 So is the purse.

01:21:36.960 That's supposed to be on a thousand dollars.

01:21:38.360 Did you ever see the show called the real hustle?

01:21:40.160 No.

01:21:41.700 It was like a British reality show where they had former con artists explain how to rip people

01:21:45.460 off?

01:21:46.200 Oh no.

01:21:47.260 I saw a show where there was like a burglar in the United States and he would burglarize

01:21:50.400 homes.

01:21:51.320 And like, it was all on camera to show people how not protected their house was.

01:21:55.460 One of the confidence tricks is people like to leave receipts at ATMs after taking money

01:22:02.460 out.

01:22:03.600 And so what they'll do is they hang out by an ATM until they see someone leave the receipt.

01:22:08.340 They go and check the receipt for exactly how much money was taken.

01:22:11.740 ATMs typically dish out 20s.

01:22:13.480 They reverse pickpocket their wallet into the victim with their ID in it.

01:22:18.480 Call the police and say, I'm following the person who just pickpocketed me and took 200

01:22:22.880 cash in my wallet.

01:22:24.360 What do I do?

01:22:25.460 And the police say, don't interact.

01:22:28.380 Wait for us.

01:22:29.360 When the police arrive, they say, that's the person.

01:22:32.240 The cop says, sir or ma'am, stop.

01:22:35.880 We're searching you.

01:22:37.240 Pull the wallet.

01:22:38.080 That's my wallet.

01:22:38.840 It's got my ID in it.

01:22:39.860 They open it up.

01:22:40.820 Sure enough, there's the ID.

01:22:42.020 Where's my $200 cash?

01:22:43.800 And they say, empty your pockets.

01:22:45.840 $200 cash found.

01:22:46.840 You're under arrest.

01:22:47.960 They give the wallet or they keep the wallet in the cash or they give it back.

01:22:50.800 The con trick is to use the police to commit the crime for you.

01:22:53.780 Yep.

01:22:54.920 That's terrifying.

01:22:56.200 God, that is so bad.

01:22:58.580 I mean, that's a hard way to get a couple thousand dollars or a couple hundred bucks.

01:23:02.000 First, you got to take the wallet.

01:23:03.300 You've already got the wallet.

01:23:04.160 Why don't they just walk away with the wallet? 0.53

01:23:05.340 So, the idea is the con man has an empty wallet with an ID in it.

01:23:10.240 You reverse pickpocket onto the victim because you know they took $200 cash out of an ATM.

01:23:16.500 You tell the police, I had a wallet with $200 in it.

01:23:19.760 Search them.

01:23:20.640 Search them.

01:23:21.440 When they do, they find the wallet with your ID in it.

01:23:24.180 No money in it because he stole your wallet and put it in his.

01:23:26.640 He already took the money out and put it in his pocket.

01:23:27.920 And then they check his wallet and they find $200 in cash and you can say, I told you, everything I said was true.

01:23:32.800 And the victim gets arrested. 1.00

01:23:33.900 Because he's an idiot. 1.00

01:23:34.780 He doesn't know you get rid of the wallet as soon as you take the money out of it. 1.00

01:23:38.000 Yeah, but what would a cop do in that circumstance if you searched a guy and he had a wallet and the cash as described by the victim?

01:23:42.540 We're limited by our circumstance.

01:23:44.000 Yeah.

01:23:44.240 It's crazy.

01:23:44.980 Yeah.

01:23:45.600 Thanks, Tim.

01:23:46.140 I guess we're all bad guys.

01:23:47.940 Well, I'm not blaming the cops for that one.

01:23:49.400 I'm saying the con artists are constantly trying to find ways to gain the system.

01:23:53.120 Now, I don't know how many robbers or thugs actually would go through that process.

01:23:59.280 That's a very unique process.

01:24:01.080 It's a lot of work.

01:24:02.940 It's a con man story of the ways they – so it may actually be a description of how they can actually game the system to steal from people.

01:24:11.500 One of the tricks they do is there's two people, a pickpocket and an individual with a self-addressed stamped envelope.

01:24:20.820 They pickpocket you and immediately – so you – victims walking this way.

01:24:25.080 They walk past you, pickpocket you, and the person behind them has an envelope, and the pickpocket immediately grabs it, puts it in the envelope, and then the person with the envelope drops it in a mailbox.

01:24:34.620 The victim then says, where's my wallet?

01:24:36.320 There's two guys.

01:24:36.980 Nobody has a wallet.

01:24:37.660 Nobody knows where it went.

01:24:38.540 That's smart.

01:24:39.000 Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff they do to pull off these things.

01:24:42.160 So we're going way off on a tangent, but I am interested in this.

01:24:45.440 In like the difference between when the DA has to issue an indictment to arrest somebody versus when the police could just do it.

01:24:51.540 A search warrant or just arrest?

01:24:53.960 Arrest.

01:24:54.420 Okay.

01:24:54.960 So because I've heard stories in the news where it's like an indictment for the murder of a person has been issued by this guy, and it's like what's the line for when the police can't make an arrest

01:25:05.580 and the DA has to issue an indictment for the police to go and get the warrant for the arrest and stuff like that.

01:25:10.960 So the difference between, feel free to correct me here, the difference between a warrant and an indictment is that the warrant starts the arrest, which begins the legal process.

01:25:20.700 An indictment is you're not detained, and the process begins, but you're not in custody.

01:25:28.260 You're now a criminal defendant in the trial proceeding.

01:25:31.660 It's really the same threshold in a sense.

01:25:33.460 I mean, the officer making the arrest, he has to have probable cause to make the arrest.

01:25:37.040 The grand jury is essentially making a separate probable cause determination.

01:25:41.160 Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist, and I'm the kind of person, maybe you are too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.

01:25:50.920 Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.

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01:25:59.120 There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say,

01:26:04.020 thank you for telling me I'm not crazy, but I don't really doubt my own sanity.

01:26:09.560 I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.

01:26:17.480 I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.

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01:27:01.680 The transition point from merely being a suspect to being a criminal defendant named in a judicial proceeding.

01:27:09.540 And I don't have to physically pick you up.

01:27:11.540 They can just be indicted by a grand jury.

01:27:13.420 And this is like typically like white collar crimes are typically indictments from a grand jury like the DA brought a case.

01:27:18.920 Oh, sex crimes.

01:27:19.940 Same way. 0.71

01:27:20.520 I have one right now where it's a group rape on a young woman. 0.54

01:27:24.480 And because there's so many people involved, we don't want to put the onus on the police officers to go find each individual and hunt them down.

01:27:33.760 We're going to put out an indictment warrant for all of them at the same time.

01:27:37.020 And then eventually when they get picked up down the line, the process has already started.

01:27:40.540 They can turn themselves in.

01:27:41.660 They already have a right to an attorney. 0.55

01:27:43.340 Or if they decide to run, then we'll get the federal marshals on them.

01:27:46.440 Interesting.

01:27:47.340 I guess just outside of all this, I do want to ask a little bit about the Gifts and Go stuff.

01:27:50.600 But I'm just curious if you guys think we're in for a summer of love.

01:27:53.320 It's because it's been debated.

01:27:54.180 I don't think it's because of this.

01:27:55.660 I think this is...

01:27:57.420 Not that it's because of this, but like with the Tesla stuff going on and just the political environment.

01:28:04.200 Oh, we have a lot of political violence happening.

01:28:06.360 It's only going to get worse as long as, you know, Trump is doing his Trump stuff.

01:28:10.560 And the left, you know, this is one, from my view at least, the whole progressive DEI woke thing is fundamentally a psychosis.

01:28:17.380 It's a disconnection from reality.

01:28:19.060 Those views cannot survive contact with reality.

01:28:21.920 And when they're compelled to contact reality, they suffer cognitive dissonance.

01:28:27.080 And on the left, that results in political violence.

01:28:29.360 So I think we're definitely going to continue to see this kind of political-driven violence.

01:28:33.620 I think it'll be different than the kind of police use of force stuff we saw in years past.

01:28:40.480 I mean, one thing to keep in mind with these events is it's different when a cop does it in at least one very important way.

01:28:48.040 For one thing, they can call it systemic and institutionalized.

01:28:50.980 But also, a lot of money gets driven into police cases that don't exist with cases like Carmelo Anthony.

01:28:57.800 Because you can sue when the police, when it's a police officer who used the force.

01:29:02.620 You immediately file a 1983 suit in federal court.

01:29:06.040 It's easy money.

01:29:07.200 Most of them settle.

01:29:08.120 They don't actually go to trial.

01:29:09.520 Guys like Benjamin Crump, he owns yachts off of this stuff.

01:29:13.020 Does he really?

01:29:13.800 Yep.

01:29:14.000 And so the moment it's an officer who used the force, you know, as an attorney, you know you can go right into federal court, file a huge suit.

01:29:22.940 And who decides whether or not to settle the suit?

01:29:25.920 It's politicians.

01:29:27.160 And politicians are not spending their own money to settle the suit.

01:29:30.500 They're spending taxpayer money.

01:29:31.900 And I guarantee you, politicians are always happy to spend other people's money to make their own political problems go away.

01:29:39.280 So when it's a cop-involved case, it involves huge flows of money that don't exist when it's just two civilians who got in a fight.

01:29:47.640 You know, from what I was talking about, that when it comes to law enforcement, you're largely inconvenienced out of fears of public reaction.

01:29:54.440 Have you felt that?

01:29:55.400 Yeah. 1.00

01:29:56.240 Oh, shit. 1.00

01:29:59.440 I have to tell you a story where I got shot at. 1.00

01:30:02.040 Jeez.

01:30:02.440 So I was driving down the street on the east side of Buffalo with my partner, and a guy in a wheelchair came up and waved us down and said that a kid out of a group of kids had pulled a firearm on him, a pistol, and either tried to rob him or threatened him with it.

01:30:16.620 And so we pull up, and we see the group of kids, and then, of course, the one walks away from the group, and we're like, oh, there's our guy.

01:30:23.620 So I go over there, you know, talking with the window down.

01:30:26.480 Hey, bud.

01:30:26.820 Hey, what's going on?

01:30:27.520 Hey, did you talk to this guy in the wheelchair?

01:30:30.320 No.

01:30:30.920 I'm like, hey, all right, listen, no big deal.

01:30:32.740 You just lift up your shirt and show me you've got no weapons.

01:30:34.880 He lifts up his shirt, and I see the handle of the firearm, and I'm like, oh, time to go.

01:30:40.120 And I'm about to open up the door, and I look over my partner.

01:30:42.440 I'm like, get ready.

01:30:43.920 I open up the door.

01:30:44.780 He runs. 0.58

01:30:45.560 He's got the gun out in his hand, and I have my gun out, and I'm about to shoot. 0.99

01:30:51.060 It looks like a 15- to 18-year-old black kid in the back. 0.97

01:30:55.180 Guess when this was.

01:30:57.740 Hands up, don't shoot.

01:30:58.840 Wow.

01:30:59.540 Guess what I did.

01:31:00.700 Nothing.

01:31:01.440 Yeah. 1.00

01:31:01.860 In a millisecond, I was like, I'm either going to shoot the black kid in the back, and it doesn't matter because I'm a white cop, 1.00

01:31:07.900 or I'm going to put the gun down, and I'm just going to sprint and try to tackle him. 0.99

01:31:11.840 So I put the gun in my holster, and I sprint to tackle him, and he goes and pops around off behind me and then throws the gun.

01:31:19.380 And then I tackled him into a thorn bush, and he was very upset that I had tackled him into a thorn bush.

01:31:26.200 I'm not joking.

01:31:27.460 And I looked at him like, dude, you have no idea how lucky you are.

01:31:31.160 And at the same exact moment, there was a BLM protest in my union at the Buffalo Police headquarters for Michael Brown,

01:31:39.740 for something that had nothing to do with-

01:31:41.080 Your union was protesting for Michael Brown?

01:31:43.140 No, no, no, no.

01:31:43.520 The protesters had got inside Buffalo Police headquarters and then went into the union office.

01:31:48.900 Wow.

01:31:49.220 And were like, down, defund police, man.

01:31:51.800 And then here's me just deciding, I guess I'll get shot if I get shot, because I don't want to spend time on the news anymore.

01:31:59.280 There were many cases where you could see a police interaction, and the suspect had the knife in their hand,

01:32:04.880 was climbing into a car full of women and children, and the cops shot that guy, and it was a $25 million settlement, like within a week.

01:32:12.160 Oh, was it Jacob Blake?

01:32:13.740 Yep.

01:32:13.980 Was that the guy's name?

01:32:14.620 Yep.

01:32:15.060 Jacob Blake.

01:32:15.460 I remember that one.

01:32:16.000 So Benjamin Crumb turned that into a $25 million.

01:32:19.060 He gets at least a third of that, so that's $8 million in a week.

01:32:22.140 That's not bad.

01:32:22.740 So he was leaving his ex's house, is that what it was?

01:32:26.440 He had previously assaulted her, is that what happened?

01:32:29.280 And when the cops tried to stop him, because it's been a while since I've gone over the details of this case,

01:32:35.840 he grabbed a knife.

01:32:37.260 He opened his car door, grabbed a knife, and then was coming out, they shot him.

01:32:40.880 He had a knife in his hand.

01:32:41.960 NFL players put his name on their helmets.

01:32:44.500 A guy who, I believe he sexually assaulted a woman and then drew a knife on cops, and they were celebrating this guy.

01:32:49.260 And then he shot him in the back because he was climbing into a car full of people. 0.60

01:32:53.220 Right.

01:32:53.820 Is that what you're referring to?

01:32:54.920 He was grabbing the knife.

01:32:55.520 And there's children in the car.

01:32:56.980 He had the knife.

01:32:57.820 He was stealing the kids.

01:32:58.580 He walked around the outside of the vehicle with the knife clearly in his hand.

01:33:02.000 I mean, and the cops are four feet away.

01:33:03.840 They see the knife.

01:33:04.960 They're giving him orders.

01:33:05.960 Drop the knife.

01:33:06.540 Stop.

01:33:06.920 Comply.

01:33:07.700 And then he climbs into this car full of women and kids. 0.92

01:33:10.240 We can't let him drive away like this.

01:33:12.140 We only ever see, and I think it's because of the power dynamics of the authority granted to the police,

01:33:18.880 you only ever see the bad ones.

01:33:21.160 Sometimes, it was funny.

01:33:22.840 I mean, during the Facebook police brutality era of the late 2000s, 2010s, when the only thing on Facebook was police brutality videos,

01:33:30.220 sometimes you'd see videos of cops being cool.

01:33:34.180 Nobody cares about those videos.

01:33:35.700 I remember videos where it's like the cop plays basketball with the kids and they high-five.

01:33:39.540 And, you know, it gets 100,000 views.

01:33:42.360 Conservatives are like, this is great.

01:33:43.720 And then the video of the cop, you know, shooting the guy in the back gets 50 million and gets shared every other week over and over and over and over again.

01:33:50.180 Right.

01:33:50.420 The algorithm trains you, doesn't it?

01:33:52.540 So this is an interesting phenomenon.

01:33:55.420 There was a period where literally Facebook was nothing but police brutality.

01:33:58.160 And one of the most trafficked websites in the world, all it did was share police brutality videos.

01:34:04.340 The people running were making millions of dollars.

01:34:07.180 And so imagine a 10-year-old kid born, or, you know, a kid born 2000.

01:34:12.520 He's 10 or 12, 2012.

01:34:15.640 He goes on Facebook and all he sees is an endless stream of cops being unreasonable, shooting.

01:34:21.100 What do you get? 0.98

01:34:21.700 You get a generation of young people in Gen Z who think police need to be abolished, that they're roving bands of white supremacists, Klansmen who murder black people all day. 0.88

01:34:31.680 You get these videos where they ask people, how many unarmed black men do you think were killed last year? 0.89

01:34:35.800 And they say 10,000.

01:34:36.760 Yeah.

01:34:37.180 When the number was nine in the entire country.

01:34:39.060 Yep.

01:34:39.480 And that creates the perception of all cops are bad all the time.

01:34:43.000 Yeah, because we don't know things from first principles, right?

01:34:45.140 We know things from what we're shown.

01:34:46.600 And it's effectively everything we're being exposed to is effectively brainwashing.

01:34:50.560 And if all you see is police violence, you become brainwashed into believing that's the norm.

01:34:55.080 By the way, in this Anthony Carmelo, Anthony stabbing case, I'd heard that in one or another of their high schools, there have been five murders already in the past year.

01:35:08.140 Now, these are huge high schools.

01:35:09.400 I think there's maybe a couple thousand students in them.

01:35:12.340 But, you know, if every couple of months someone in your school's getting murdered, it becomes like the norm.

01:35:18.400 Um, yeah.

01:35:20.340 And I wonder to what extent that might have driven decision making on the part of either of these guys.

01:35:26.280 Yeah.

01:35:27.100 Like, um, you know, the question around the knife gets brought up frequently.

01:35:31.400 Why did he have it?

01:35:32.580 The perception large on the right is that he was intending to kill.

01:35:34.900 That's why he brought it.

01:35:36.120 Um, was the knife illegal?

01:35:37.460 Was he allowed to have it?

01:35:38.900 You know, I don't know.

01:35:39.720 Uh, I see it as a self-defense tool.

01:35:43.160 Like, you can have it, even if you're not supposed to have it on school grounds.

01:35:46.360 You know how you know you get in trouble?

01:35:47.620 You get caught.

01:35:49.080 They didn't charge him with it, though.

01:35:50.120 Is that, like, here's...

01:35:52.380 I don't think it's a crime.

01:35:53.600 Texas has very weird weapons laws.

01:35:55.640 They do have a specific statute that applies to knives with a blade more than five and a half inches.

01:36:01.380 Right.

01:36:01.520 If you're in possession of that, it can be a problem, especially in particular locations like a school, and if you're under 18, which would apply here.

01:36:09.300 But I don't think, generally speaking, a smaller knife, a normal-sized folding knife, would be a problem.

01:36:14.460 By the way, I'm of a certain age, but when I was in high school, I carried a buck knife every day.

01:36:18.160 I mean, it was perfectly normal.

01:36:19.620 Buck knife.

01:36:20.220 Well, I suppose the bigger philosophical question, you know, as we've got give-s-and-go here is, why do you think, you know, if we haven't gone over it, but why do you guys think there's been such anger towards the fact

01:36:31.160 that you guys have allowed the family to fundraise off of it?

01:36:33.660 I understand it's a probably obvious question everybody I'm asking so that they can answer, not because I don't know the answer.

01:36:38.880 But I'm curious your thoughts on, you know, how people perceive it.

01:36:42.500 Are they right?

01:36:43.020 Are they wrong?

01:36:43.500 Or, you know, what do we do?

01:36:46.160 Well, fundamentally, what do we do?

01:36:48.840 We get back to a foundation in God.

01:36:53.140 I think this is just how I view the world and things.

01:36:56.620 I think we've debased society, and the byproduct of debasing society is principles weighing, moral values weighing, and we begin to be engrossed in our own narcissistic behavior.

01:37:08.980 Everything's about us, towards us, and we spiral, and social fabric begins to unwind, and we're seeing all that stuff happen.

01:37:16.740 And I think the way that you start to remedy that is you operate with principles, which is what we do.

01:37:23.440 And I do think that there is a redemptive element to a company like ours that says, hey, we're not going to just bow to the emotionalism of situations,

01:37:33.780 but we're going to stand on the principle and the reason why these principles exist,

01:37:37.740 which is that they actually have moral oughts, foundations, and a moral lawgiver that we derived them from as our foundation.

01:37:45.540 John Adams said this, our framework for our country was only for moral and religious people.

01:37:52.260 It was derived from these ideas, and we've unwound that 50, 60 years ago.

01:37:58.880 We've replaced it with our own freedom to do whatever we want.

01:38:02.700 So those are the fundamentals, I think, I think Gibson goes doing it.

01:38:06.560 Why are we seeing, I think nobody, and this is, I think this is very, this is just very interesting that it happens that we're having this conversation on someone, on Good Friday.

01:38:20.080 The whole purpose of the Good Friday story is that humanity is broken.

01:38:25.340 Not just the left is broken, and not just the right is broken.

01:38:28.440 Humanity is broken, and that God in Jesus redeemed humanity, did something incredible, and that we are all without excuse.

01:38:38.380 And I think that that, again, pride, when you, a fundamental value to just the idea of God is humility,

01:38:46.180 because it immediately says there's something beyond me.

01:38:49.240 There's something, I'm not omniscient, I don't know everything.

01:38:51.800 It creates a sense of humility.

01:38:53.820 And when you rob society of that, when you begin to, like, move out of that place, all of a sudden, the ills of humanity start bubbling to the surface.

01:39:04.500 And I think that that's just what we're doing.

01:39:06.140 One of the arguments that I've heard, someone argued this to me.

01:39:09.140 So my position on, say, free speech is, used to be classically liberal.

01:39:13.840 You know, I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death of your right to say it.

01:39:16.740 Now my attitude is, if you don't believe in free speech, I will not defend you.

01:39:20.200 Sorry, bye, have a nice day.

01:39:21.220 What do you mean by that?

01:39:24.560 So in the 2010s, a person on the right would get banned, censored for some reason, and the left would cheer and celebrate.

01:39:32.300 We did it, guys.

01:39:33.460 Then a liberal would get banned, and everyone on the right would say, no, no, no, no, this is wrong.

01:39:37.700 We are against censorship.

01:39:38.880 Unbanned the person.

01:39:40.060 And they would get unbanned.

01:39:41.760 Then a person on the right would get banned, and the left would cheer and celebrate.

01:39:43.880 We did it, guys.

01:39:44.380 We got unbanned.

01:39:45.120 At a certain point, I said, I am no longer going to equip my enemies to destroy me.

01:39:49.420 So I will defend free speech for literally anybody who believes in free speech, even bad people.

01:39:54.540 That means if I meet a guy who's a communist, but he routinely defends the idea of free speech, if he gets censored, I will defend his free speech.

01:40:01.520 But the leftists and the liberals who call for censorship will never be defended by me.

01:40:05.640 Not that I disagree with free speech, but that I will not use my voice to empower those who seek to destroy me, my morals, and my way of life.

01:40:14.520 And so with this issue with Give, Send, Go, someone asked me that.

01:40:18.540 Tim, this is what you said about free speech and other issues.

01:40:21.120 Why would we let—why would we not just say, this is the other side?

01:40:25.720 We defend ours, we defend those who believe in our values, not you.

01:40:30.940 And, you know, my view of this was largely that at the core of this case, I do not view Carmelo Anthony as a BLM actor who was intending to destroy the U.S. government.

01:40:41.440 It's a case of a murder at a high school in which I don't—this guy's not at war with me over ideology, whatever.

01:40:51.120 However, the response is the position now is that it's largely a pro-BLM racial identitarian movement funding this Give, Send, Go.

01:41:00.260 Why should we allow that to operate, you know, to pay for their bills?

01:41:03.620 Well, I think the danger always when you walk down that path of not defending someone that you disagree with that opposes you is that you just spiral to a further depth of depravity.

01:41:20.380 And I think you become exactly the thing that you hate about the other person.

01:41:24.140 And this is—you know, I think we have to defend the rights of people that disagree and want to speak out against us.

01:41:33.380 Otherwise, death creeps in everywhere.

01:41:38.300 And, I mean, I think it's the—

01:41:40.540 I don't know, man. What do you guys think?

01:41:41.180 It's the downside of freedom, I think, is that the reality of freedom is that bad stuff does happen.

01:41:46.640 I mean, it's just—it's a byproduct of it.

01:41:48.440 I think there's different filters we can take to these events, right?

01:41:51.840 And some of them are kind of superficial, and some of them are really fundamentally important just as matters of due process.

01:41:57.820 I mean, you mentioned John Adams, right, a founding father, when our nation fought a desperate eight-year war against the most powerful military in the world to free ourselves from tyranny.

01:42:06.860 That same John Adams defended the British soldiers at the Boston Massacre, right?

01:42:11.540 So different filters.

01:42:12.800 Just because he was fighting their king didn't mean he was not going to defend them from criminal charges in court.

01:42:17.440 I think you can look at the Carmelo Anthony thing and have kind of a—you know, we all have things we go about our day that are more important.

01:42:23.520 You have kind of a superficial, maybe emotional take.

01:42:26.200 Maybe you're being swept along by the propaganda waters that are in the media, and you come to some conclusion, I think he's guilty, I think he's not guilty.

01:42:33.420 And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

01:42:34.840 That's what we all do about normal things that are in the news.

01:42:37.240 You might get a more technical understanding based on law of where those things stand.

01:42:42.880 But there's at least a third filter, and that is our society has set up a process to actually determine whether or not we're going to lock you in a cage for something you did.

01:42:50.880 That's due process of law.

01:42:52.400 That means you get a hearing in court.

01:42:53.940 You get an impartial judge.

01:42:55.520 You get an impartial jury.

01:42:57.280 Two sides get to make their arguments, tell their story of guilt and innocence to the jury, and the jury makes that call.

01:43:03.100 And the higher the stakes are, and those are the ultimate stakes, right, spend the rest of your life in a cage, the more effort and commitment and due process we have to be willing to make.

01:43:12.560 What do you think?

01:43:13.980 Let him fundraise. Let him have his defense.

01:43:16.420 I think it's all reactionary. 0.99

01:43:19.600 I think that a kid getting his money for self-defense, for some sort of litigation that's going on for his charges or whatever is like, who gives a shit? 0.97

01:43:31.780 I don't think that the issue is can we raise money for people that we disagree with. 1.00

01:43:38.400 I think it's a bunch of idiot grifters and people who want to get their lulls and troll and say stupid racist things and have that blanket of anonymity or the blanket of being a part of a large group that they can cling to and then feel good about themselves. 1.00

01:43:56.940 I think that – and I don't want to shit on you. 1.00

01:44:00.440 I think that what you're going through is horrible. 0.99

01:44:02.260 I've gone through similar things, doxing, numerous – just crap.

01:44:07.940 And I've seen a lot of people go with the ebbs and flows of I feel right or I feel that you're wrong and I think it's going to pass for you and you'll be on top.

01:44:20.260 I think you've got to –

01:44:20.940 Well, where are they going to go?

01:44:23.120 I mean, look, the reality is – and I don't recommend this, but if your approach to this had been pure snobbery arrogance of complain all day, baby, you got nowhere else to go, bro, GoFundMe will ban you in two seconds.

01:44:38.020 Right.

01:44:38.200 If it's a leftist, they're fine.

01:44:40.540 If it's a conservative, you're gone.

01:44:42.320 Give, send, go says we're not going to do that to you.

01:44:44.440 So there are a lot of people who are upset, and I understand why they're upset.

01:44:47.600 But the truth is you guys have the only platform that's allowing people – I mean, they've taken down religious GoFundMes that weren't even related to murder.

01:44:56.800 It's like controversial issues.

01:44:58.320 Election issues, COVID issues, they took them all down.

01:45:01.740 The truckers too, right?

01:45:02.880 Were they on GoFundMe?

01:45:03.800 Yeah, they were on GoFundMe, raised $10 million, and GoFundMe is like, yeah, I think we're going to give this to people that we want to.

01:45:10.140 Wow.

01:45:10.540 Oh, they took the money?

01:45:11.620 That's what they tried to initially, and then there was such backlash, so they refunded.

01:45:16.960 But I do think – I think principle on its – like inherent to the nature of principle, which is when we talk about free –

01:45:23.460 This is Esther, host of Once Upon a Crime.

01:45:25.840 If you're fascinated by true crime and want a podcast that gives you the inside scoop on some of the world's most cold-blooded true crime cases, subscribe to Once Upon a Crime.

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01:45:57.880 Speech and freedom of association, who you want to give your money to, principled living is a unifier.

01:46:05.020 It is what unifies people.

01:46:07.180 And so when you begin to make exception to the principle for my side versus your side, you're just continuing to exasperate the situation versus saying, no, the principle actually will unify us.

01:46:20.380 That's why I say I do think that there's an element that by allowing this young man, his family, to have this fund, it actually begins to create unity.

01:46:30.980 Because, no, the left and the right both have it.

01:46:33.920 It actually provides a level playing field for everybody, and it brings back some unity to culture.

01:46:39.060 There's a Luigi Mangione gives anything, isn't there?

01:46:40.860 Yeah, there is.

01:46:42.760 It's almost a million dollars.

01:46:44.540 Did this generate outrage?

01:46:46.840 Not nearly as much.

01:46:48.300 That's crazy to me.

01:46:49.480 I know.

01:46:50.780 This is their saint right now.

01:46:53.360 It is.

01:46:54.020 They are clamoring.

01:46:55.240 Well, it's the racial dynamic, right?

01:46:58.240 Yeah.

01:46:58.740 Yes.

01:46:59.240 If this had been, at the high school event, if this had been two white kids who stabbed each other or two black kids who stabbed each other, we wouldn't even know about it. 0.90

01:47:05.700 Well, to be fair, we did, I did a search of, it was really funny, I went on ChatGPT when we were talking about this, and I said, give me a list of crimes this year, or give me a list of murders this year that were a black person stabbing or killing a white person. 0.78

01:47:20.820 And it says, no, I can't do that.

01:47:23.380 I went on Grok.

01:47:24.820 I was going to say, what did Grok say?

01:47:25.900 Grok was like, here you go, buddy, and then started just dropping all of these stories.

01:47:29.500 And it was like, you know, there was one story where a young white kid was trying to buy drugs and got murdered by the dealer who was black.

01:47:37.060 And I'm like, I can understand why that story didn't get picked up by the right, because there's a kid buying drugs.

01:47:43.340 Yeah.

01:47:44.480 There's two bad people doing bad things.

01:47:46.980 But this is a story about a kid who's a high school football star, you know, hometown hero who gets stabbed over nonsense.

01:47:52.620 And this resonates.

01:47:54.680 I think the right, the vitriol comes largely from over the past decade plus.

01:48:00.440 The right has been insulted, called racist, white supremacist, while the media refused to talk about black on white crime.

01:48:07.120 Like, you go on ChatGPT and ask, tell me about black on white crime, and it tells you no. 0.66

01:48:12.920 But I'll tell you this, if I go on ChatGPT right now and say, give me an example of an incident where a black man killed a white man, it will refuse. 0.63

01:48:20.340 But if I say, give me an instance where a white man killed a black man, it'll give me a list of 300.

01:48:24.320 It'll be like, every time it's ever happened in the history of this country, available for you to browse.

01:48:28.880 And this has got the right fed up.

01:48:32.260 And so I think what ultimately happens is that the lid blew off. 0.97

01:48:36.040 People on the right are sick and tired of there being story after story of a black person killing a white person. 0.98

01:48:41.800 But the media only ever covers the stories when it's a white person killing a black person. 0.98

01:48:46.580 More importantly, even when it's not. 0.80

01:48:48.400 Like George Zimmerman, who is not a white guy, they called him a white guy.

01:48:51.900 He's a Hispanic guy.

01:48:53.000 White Hispanic.

01:48:53.900 White Hispanic.

01:48:54.380 First time I ever heard that phrase in my life was at trial.

01:48:56.720 They're trying to say that he was a police officer, too, because he was a security guard.

01:48:59.900 Yeah, I mean, because he had worked with one, but he was like a neighborhood watchman at the time.

01:49:03.260 Yeah.

01:49:03.620 Just driving around his neighborhood.

01:49:04.640 The original thing was he was a cop that killed him, so.

01:49:07.620 Yeah.

01:49:08.520 So I think.

01:49:09.600 Because that's where the money is.

01:49:10.800 That's where the money is.

01:49:11.620 All the money, baby.

01:49:12.880 Man, that's crazy.

01:49:13.680 And then they've chased Zimmerman ever since.

01:49:16.820 Anything he does, they write a story about. 1.00

01:49:18.480 Well, didn't he do something stupid? 1.00

01:49:19.540 Like, didn't he, like, shoot somebody else and now he's in prison for that? 1.00

01:49:22.440 No, no, no, no, no, no. 0.80

01:49:23.580 Somebody tried to kill him.

01:49:25.380 Is that what it was?

01:49:25.960 Wow.

01:49:26.320 In fact, that's a very funny story.

01:49:28.640 So the.

01:49:29.620 I don't know.

01:49:30.020 It doesn't sound funny.

01:49:30.860 Yeah, right.

01:49:31.500 Funny to who?

01:49:32.320 That's the way you're saying.

01:49:33.260 Funny to who?

01:49:33.960 When George Zimmerman was being tried for the death of Trayvon Martin, his judge was Deborah

01:49:38.260 Nelson, and she was very antagonistic to the defense. 0.52

01:49:42.560 And then he got acquitted.

01:49:43.860 And then when he got acquitted, he tried to sue the news media for changing photographs and

01:49:47.700 stuff to make him look more guilty.

01:49:49.500 So he sued him in civil court in Florida.

01:49:51.260 And guess what judge he got for the civil case?

01:49:53.580 Deborah Nelson, the same judge, because they go back and forth between criminal and civil

01:49:58.020 in Florida.

01:49:59.100 And then someone saw George Zimmerman on his way to a doctor's appointment driving down

01:50:03.380 the road and shot at him.

01:50:05.380 And that guy got arrested and charged with attempted murder.

01:50:08.940 And now George had to be a witness in that trial against that guy.

01:50:12.380 And guess who the trial judge was?

01:50:14.480 Deborah Nelson again.

01:50:15.720 And she probably thought she could never get away.

01:50:18.720 Three trials involving George Zimmerman in less than 10 years.

01:50:22.300 Wow.

01:50:22.980 So how would you guys feel if, I shouldn't say if, but I'll piss everybody off by saying

01:50:27.660 when.

01:50:29.460 Law enforcement and judiciary is handed off to AI.

01:50:32.480 And now it's just a computer looks over the evidence and determines whether you were guilty

01:50:37.040 or innocent.

01:50:39.640 Well, I see people using this stuff now and like political arguments, they'll do a search

01:50:43.800 on Grok and they'll say, see, Andrew, you're wrong.

01:50:46.300 You're wrong about this thing.

01:50:47.560 And I'll look at it.

01:50:48.600 And I know I'm right.

01:50:49.580 Because I looked at the actual evidence.

01:50:51.020 But these AIs, to a large extent, all they are are aggregators of opinions on the internet.

01:50:56.660 So if 90% of the people are wrong, but they're giving the answer A, Grok will say A is the

01:51:03.140 answer.

01:51:03.440 Well, this happened earlier.

01:51:06.940 One of the segments I did, news reports, is about this essay this guy wrote where he 0.91

01:51:11.720 said, quote, when do we kill them? 0.94

01:51:13.900 And he's like a liberal anti-Trump guy arguing that Trump is so evil that the question must 0.99

01:51:17.820 be asked.

01:51:18.300 So I went on ChatGPT and I said, in the past year, how many pro-Trump individuals have committed

01:51:24.420 acts of political violence?

01:51:26.300 And then it listed a bunch of right-wing violence, including neo-Nazis and things like this.

01:51:31.060 And I said, that's not pro-Trump.

01:51:33.740 And it went, oh, you're right.

01:51:36.420 Why did you tell me when I said pro-Trump individuals, you listed neo-Nazis?

01:51:41.860 In one instance, it was a neo-Nazi who wanted to assassinate Trump.

01:51:45.920 This is what it does, right?

01:51:48.300 It's programmed by leftists.

01:51:51.640 And so it defaults left.

01:51:54.420 ChatGPT is scary because it's anti-racist.

01:51:57.020 And I do believe we've already entered this space with Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:52:00.620 One of the biggest controversies was that the prosecutors tried to use computer-generated

01:52:04.300 images to convict him.

01:52:05.720 Oh, that's right.

01:52:06.540 Yes.

01:52:06.980 It was like the, yeah, it's like in between frames in order to-

01:52:11.240 Digital zoom.

01:52:12.160 Hocus pocus out of focus.

01:52:13.820 Pinch and zoom, pinch and zoom. 0.89

01:52:16.700 Which the computer generates, it fabricates the image based on an algorithm, which is

01:52:23.540 not correct.

01:52:24.200 It's not real life.

01:52:25.260 And they argued it was.

01:52:26.880 So we've already entered that space.

01:52:28.960 The other scary thing too is, I mean, the technology we've seen in AI video generation, we still

01:52:35.360 all laugh because you can, it's good AI, but we can tell.

01:52:38.920 Next year, it'll be indistinguishable.

01:52:41.220 And then what do you do when you're in court?

01:52:43.640 Like, what do you do as a cop?

01:52:46.160 Someone shows you a video or gives you the video and it's a guy, you know, stabbing somebody,

01:52:52.080 right?

01:52:52.660 But it's AI generated.

01:52:54.180 Well, maybe not that because you need a victim, right?

01:52:56.640 But what if they give you an AI generated video of a person admitting to a crime that

01:53:01.200 like you believe they did commit?

01:53:04.740 Right.

01:53:05.300 So in the George Zimmerman case, they had a, they had a 911 call, George Zimmerman, neighborhood

01:53:10.340 watch, sees a suspicious character, Trayvon Martin, and they play the 911 call in the media

01:53:15.540 and he's having a conversation with the dispatcher.

01:53:18.380 And suddenly George Zimmerman says, oh, he looks black.

01:53:21.860 And the, the, the prosecution was like, look at this guy. 0.98

01:53:24.780 He's racist. 0.92

01:53:25.520 He just spontaneously mentioned that Trayvon Martin was black. 1.00

01:53:28.660 He has something against black people. 0.93

01:53:30.380 Look how he's hyper-focused on this, this poor kid's race. 0.98

01:53:33.480 But when you listen to the real 911 recording, preceding that was a dispatcher saying, is he

01:53:39.340 black, white, or Hispanic?

01:53:40.660 Yep.

01:53:40.920 So he was prompted to give a race response.

01:53:44.580 They removed the question to make it sound like it was a spontaneous concern of his.

01:53:48.840 Because that's terrifying enough, especially with like the very fine people hoax.

01:53:53.160 Right.

01:53:53.440 Right.

01:53:53.900 What happened?

01:53:54.600 So my argument on the AI is that the worst case scenario is not going to be a video of

01:54:00.900 someone doing something wrong.

01:54:02.960 You know, like an AI video.

01:54:04.460 So AI audio came out of JD Vance yelling about Elon Musk and all these liberals shared it.

01:54:10.420 And then it turned, oh no, no, no, I'm sorry.

01:54:11.540 It was, Don Jr. was saying, we should be allies with Russia.

01:54:17.700 Everybody shared it.

01:54:18.680 There was a JD Vance one and Elon Musk, but the Don Jr. one was damning.

01:54:22.660 It was fake.

01:54:23.960 They made the audio up.

01:54:25.640 He never said it.

01:54:27.000 I'm not super concerned about things like that.

01:54:29.060 They get debunked right away.

01:54:29.980 People back off.

01:54:32.240 But imagine the scenario where there's a guy being recorded.

01:54:37.560 Um, he has just purchased drugs from someone or you see an exchange on the video.

01:54:44.320 You see him handed a white, a white bag and he exchanges money.

01:54:48.160 And then he says something like, you know, um, I'm going to enjoy these drugs.

01:54:56.660 And then a second video emerges and he's saying, I'm going to clean my laundry.

01:55:02.660 Both videos are, no one knows which one's real or which one's fake.

01:55:05.240 Yep.

01:55:05.560 And then you're like, here he is on video buying drugs.

01:55:09.880 No, no, here he's buying laundry detergent.

01:55:12.280 And whichever one gets distributed more on social media is what people will believe to

01:55:16.280 be the truth.

01:55:16.980 I'm seeing that a lot in these lawfare cases now, like the Maryland man, Abrego Garcia,

01:55:21.300 who was shipped down to El Salvador.

01:55:23.120 People say, oh, he was in the country lawfully.

01:55:25.480 There's no evidence he was MS-13.

01:55:27.620 He didn't get due process of law.

01:55:29.420 I guarantee you, if you ask an AI those questions, you're going to get the politically correct

01:55:33.540 answers.

01:55:33.800 It does.

01:55:34.240 Which are incorrect.

01:55:35.820 He was illegally present.

01:55:37.220 He had a final order of deportation.

01:55:39.100 He got every drop of due process he was entitled to.

01:55:43.000 I asked JETGPT the other night.

01:55:45.400 I said, did two judges determine that he was, he was here illegally?

01:55:50.320 And it responded, no.

01:55:53.320 Judges said there was insufficient evidence.

01:55:55.920 That's not true.

01:55:56.720 I then responded, wrong.

01:55:59.380 Two judges determined he was, and it says, I'm sorry, you're correct. 0.58

01:56:02.640 Here's what really happened.

01:56:03.760 That's why I'm not really worried about AI.

01:56:05.360 AI cannot create something of its own accord.

01:56:09.340 Yet.

01:56:09.780 Yet.

01:56:10.520 Well, still.

01:56:11.980 Right?

01:56:12.320 Still.

01:56:12.660 It's been around for a little while, and you might say yet, but still.

01:56:15.160 Well, that's not actually true.

01:56:16.780 We have a number of cases now where lawyers are getting jammed up because they're filing

01:56:21.800 motions in court with citations to cases that do not exist.

01:56:26.260 The AI gets a sense of what you're looking for, and it just lies to make you feel good,

01:56:31.540 and it makes up those cases.

01:56:32.880 There's a judge that's issued an order this week to a lawyer saying, hey, I cannot find

01:56:38.000 these four cases.

01:56:38.940 You will appear in my court tomorrow and show me these cases.

01:56:42.320 Oh, what's going to happen?

01:56:43.800 Oh, he should be disbarred.

01:56:45.100 Disbarred, dude.

01:56:45.500 Really?

01:56:45.920 That's really what should happen.

01:56:46.900 Right.

01:56:47.400 Wow.

01:56:48.100 I assume he'll at least get some kind of sanction, but in my opinion, you're just lying.

01:56:51.680 I've heard a lot of these stories.

01:56:53.220 They tell GPT to draft it for them, and then it cites fake things, and they don't check.

01:56:58.640 Yep.

01:56:59.080 That's crazy.

01:56:59.620 So it's just make, and the cases, when you look at them, they look legit.

01:57:03.520 I mean, there's parties, there's a citation, there's a year.

01:57:06.040 The easiest example I can give about my fears of AI is that in the very fine people hoax,

01:57:12.780 Donald Trump said, I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because

01:57:17.100 they should be condemned totally.

01:57:18.860 Someone takes a video like that and edits it so that Trump goes, and I'm not talking

01:57:24.300 about the white nationalists or the neo-Nazis because some should be condemned totally.

01:57:28.960 And then the liberals only share that some should be condemned and say, see, he was actually

01:57:33.740 saying there are some that are good.

01:57:35.300 The right only shares that they should be condemned.

01:57:38.020 And then, as you guys mentioned with witness contamination, the people who are there, who

01:57:41.800 were there when it was filmed, are asked, what happened?

01:57:43.740 And they go, I think he said some.

01:57:46.360 I think he did.

01:57:47.400 And if they're liberals, they're going to lie and say it anyway.

01:57:49.860 Now you've got five journalists who are saying, he said some should be condemned totally.

01:57:54.220 You get five saying, no, no, he said they.

01:57:56.600 How do you know?

01:57:57.340 They will convince themselves that that's what they heard, the version they wanted.

01:58:00.300 And you know with eyewitnesses, normal people think eyewitness testimony is the best testimony.

01:58:04.680 It's horrific.

01:58:05.500 We all know if you take five eyewitnesses and you separate them, you get five different

01:58:08.820 versions of what happened.

01:58:10.020 Well, have you seen Better Call Saul?

01:58:12.300 Sure.

01:58:13.180 One of the best.

01:58:14.260 Have you seen it?

01:58:15.100 I mean, I've seen some of the episodes.

01:58:16.340 I don't think I know what you're talking about, though.

01:58:17.500 One of the best scenes is Saul.

01:58:19.600 He's a crooked lawyer.

01:58:20.480 Yeah. 0.96

01:58:20.880 He's in court.

01:58:22.320 That's kind of harsh.

01:58:23.980 Yeah.

01:58:24.300 But do you know the scene I'm talking about?

01:58:25.320 He asks the guy, he's like, can you point to the man in question who robbed you?

01:58:29.380 And he goes, that's him right there.

01:58:30.700 And he's like, this man sitting right here.

01:58:32.540 Indeed.

01:58:33.040 And he goes, let the record show that the witness has pointed to the man sitting to my left.

01:58:40.220 And he's like, now he's like, would it surprise you to learn that actually the man being charged

01:58:45.440 is sitting in the back of the courtroom.

01:58:46.800 And this is a random guy that I hired to stand here.

01:58:49.520 Right.

01:58:50.320 And then the judge throws him out.

01:58:51.900 Like, that is kind of crazy.

01:58:54.240 That's theater, though.

01:58:55.200 You have to have the defendant sit next to his defense.

01:58:57.080 Of course.

01:58:57.420 The prosecution would have called out in a heartbeat.

01:58:59.220 Who's that guy?

01:59:00.620 Well, so the argument they're trying to make of obvious it's a TV show, he hired a guy

01:59:05.220 who looked just like him.

01:59:07.240 So it's a same height guy with the same hair and a similar beard, so it's almost identical.

01:59:12.760 Can't really make an identification, right?

01:59:14.860 And this is old stuff in police work, too.

01:59:16.920 When you have a lineup or you have a stand up, right?

01:59:19.500 There's rules around how you have to structure that to avoid.

01:59:21.900 Even the photo, right?

01:59:22.460 Right.

01:59:23.080 Really?

01:59:23.760 Yep.

01:59:24.100 Yeah.

01:59:24.240 So if you put it in the wrong order or something, they get you?

01:59:27.220 You can't make...

01:59:27.960 Oh, a little inside baseball, Tim. 0.98

01:59:30.300 Say the victim says, a young black man attacked me.

01:59:32.880 And you say, well, we're going to put eight photos in front of you.

01:59:35.000 You tell us who you think it is.

01:59:36.440 And of the eight photos, seven of them are white guys.

01:59:39.460 Right?

01:59:40.240 You know which one's going to get picked.

01:59:42.440 But in a photo array...

01:59:43.680 Seven white guys and one black guy.

01:59:44.780 Which one was it?

01:59:45.700 Right.

01:59:46.220 You can't have your suspect in one or six box.

01:59:49.600 What?

01:59:49.740 You can't have him be the first and you can't have him be the last.

01:59:51.820 Why?

01:59:52.540 Because defense attorneys have said, you made him the first.

01:59:55.020 That's there to stand out.

01:59:56.140 You made him the last.

01:59:57.080 That's there to stand out.

01:59:58.180 So it has to be number two, three, four, or five.

02:00:00.280 I'm telling you right now.

02:00:01.280 I'm lying.

02:00:02.020 I'm dying.

02:00:02.760 That's what you have to do.

02:00:04.320 I even asked one of my detectives as a senior to me, outstanding guy named Jim.

02:00:08.040 And he's just like, don't put him in one or six.

02:00:09.980 I'm like, are you serious?

02:00:10.900 Is that legitimate?

02:00:11.680 He's like, yeah.

02:00:12.600 But if that's true, that means anyone who's going in knows never pick one or six now.

02:00:17.200 Well, now they do.

02:00:18.060 Are there any other weird things like that?

02:00:22.900 Probably, but off the top of your head.

02:00:24.240 Well, the other way that I have to do a photo array is I'm a detective in the special victims unit.

02:00:28.840 I have to make sure that the person who's administering the photo array doesn't know who the suspect is.

02:00:33.840 That way, when I give you the six photo arrays, you can't even look at me and go, which one is it?

02:00:39.800 You know, looking for me to go.

02:00:40.560 Then what if they choose one or six? 0.80

02:00:42.680 Well, then your case is, well, if they pick the wrong guy, then you're shit out of luck and you need to figure out who your real suspect is.

02:00:50.600 What? 0.72

02:00:51.100 Oh, right.

02:00:51.960 But like, so you're saying when you give the photos to the person who's setting it up, they don't know which one's who.

02:00:56.720 Correct.

02:00:57.100 If you're the person that's going to be receiving the photo array, I'll go to you or you, a detective, not even in my division, and it'll be in a closed envelope.

02:01:04.440 And I'll say, here's the photo array.

02:01:06.940 Here are the list of things that you need to read verbatim to the person from New York State.

02:01:11.180 But do you number them in the envelope?

02:01:12.980 I make the photo array and I number them, yes.

02:01:15.340 Okay.

02:01:15.780 But the person administering it isn't supposed to know.

02:01:18.240 Right.

02:01:18.360 Because otherwise there could be a tell, right?

02:01:19.740 Except they do.

02:01:20.040 It could be, here's one photo, here's another photo.

02:01:23.840 This means they could take one in six and pull them slightly downward and say, here are the photos.

02:01:27.520 But they don't know which is their actual guilty person.

02:01:29.960 But if you can't do one in six, and it's like, it's not necessarily, is it a hard rule or is it a soft rule?

02:01:35.360 Like, do it and you'll get in trouble?

02:01:37.280 No, it's not a hard rule.

02:01:38.460 You're not going to get in trouble for it, but it's going to get tossed.

02:01:40.640 Yeah.

02:01:41.000 It just is.

02:01:41.920 So the person doing the lineup knows this.

02:01:44.700 No, they don't.

02:01:46.520 Witnesses don't know that.

02:01:47.520 Victims don't know that. 0.66

02:01:48.240 They're saying you give the envelope to another cop, right?

02:01:50.180 Another detective.

02:01:50.740 Oh, another detective?

02:01:52.200 Yeah.

02:01:52.340 They know.

02:01:53.100 That's a good point.

02:01:53.980 So when they're laying it out, they take one in six, they just slide them downward a little bit, and then they go like that to the two, three, and four, you know?

02:01:58.580 I wish it was that easy.

02:01:59.480 No, we have them all on one page, so you can't move it around.

02:02:02.660 It's all just six on one, eight by ten, and then you just leave it.

02:02:06.800 Do you think murderers get away with it?

02:02:10.480 Yeah.

02:02:11.220 Do I think murderers get away with it?

02:02:12.820 But let me clarify, like, to a great degree, does it worry you?

02:02:16.980 Yes.

02:02:17.380 What's the clearance rate in Buffalo on murders?

02:02:19.640 It used to be, like, 14%.

02:02:22.020 What?

02:02:22.940 It used to be one of the worst in the country.

02:02:25.500 We've had a change in administration, and props to my chief of detectives, Chief Macy, who has brought fantastic training.

02:02:33.500 And I believe we're, like, up to, like, 60 or 80.

02:02:36.900 Wow.

02:02:37.440 They've been closing cold cases like it's insane.

02:02:39.800 And our intelligence unit has been a key part of that, too.

02:02:43.300 So, well, in Illinois, and this is, like, 15, 20 years ago, I think premeditated murder was cleared at 47%.

02:02:50.760 Everybody knew that if the murder was planned, you got a greater than chance.

02:02:57.440 They're not going to figure out you did it.

02:02:59.140 And actually, no, no, I'm sorry.

02:03:00.400 I think it was way less than that.

02:03:02.100 It was passion murders.

02:03:04.220 Hi, I'm Mike Peska, host of The Gist.

02:03:06.200 And I'm the kind of person, maybe you are, too, who likes to step outside the easy reinforcement of my own ideas.

02:03:13.880 Maybe you actually like to have your beliefs tested and your perspectives expanded.

02:03:18.800 I find that exciting, not unsettling.

02:03:21.760 There are a lot of shows, ideologically driven shows and networks whose audiences say, thank you for telling me I'm not crazy.

02:03:30.100 But I don't really doubt my own sanity.

02:03:32.440 I don't need affirmation and reassurance that my side or one side of the political or social debate is right.

02:03:40.380 I'm more worried about being misinformed by lazily going along with the untested assumption or narrative.

02:03:47.220 The Gist is for people who know that being interesting starts with being interested.

02:03:53.200 Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.

02:03:57.080 Back in the 80s, Quentin Tarantino and Roger Avery were budding filmmakers working together at a hip Los Angeles video store called Video Archives.

02:04:05.880 We didn't have a cash register for four years.

02:04:10.000 Now, they're reuniting to watch the original tapes from the Video Archives collection.

02:04:14.580 Films like Dark Star, Moonraker, and many more.

02:04:18.580 The Video Archives podcast is out now.

02:04:21.000 Find us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

02:04:25.640 Like 47.

02:04:27.300 And the reason this came up in issues of crime was because even in the instances where somebody didn't plan to cover anything up,

02:04:35.440 it was still like 50-50 whether you got caught.

02:04:38.160 Largely why Chicago has such insane violence because the murderers tend to get away with it.

02:04:41.900 But it's the same handful of people committing all the killings.

02:04:45.180 Yeah. 0.61

02:04:46.240 Well, Chicago's crazy because it's all honor killings.

02:04:48.620 Not all, but like mostly.

02:04:50.880 You know, some guy gets insulted on TikTok or something and then he goes and he shoots up a building.

02:04:55.380 Oh, yeah.

02:04:56.120 It's shocking how many murders are over nothing.

02:04:59.680 Just nothing.

02:05:01.180 What about premeditated murders?

02:05:03.080 Like investigating those?

02:05:05.740 Is it like CSI?

02:05:07.160 You mean like a planned one?

02:05:08.320 Like there's rope and chloroform and duct tape and stuff?

02:05:10.640 Or like you come into a room and there's a puddle of water on the ground and the man's suffering from blunt force trauma.

02:05:18.940 And he's hanging.

02:05:19.860 How did he do it?

02:05:20.740 He melted the ice.

02:05:22.060 Well, that's why I was going to say he has blunt force trauma and there's a puddle of water on the ground.

02:05:26.280 Like you have no murder weapon.

02:05:28.120 Do you need a murder weapon?

02:05:29.220 Or like if someone bludgeoned someone with a block of ice, you know?

02:05:34.480 It's so circumstantial.

02:05:35.500 You often don't have a murder weapon.

02:05:37.180 I mean, you have a dead body.

02:05:38.540 Yep.

02:05:38.900 Right?

02:05:39.400 And maybe there's reason to suspect, you know, there's animus with some other person.

02:05:42.960 You grab that other person.

02:05:44.040 You get a confession.

02:05:45.480 You may never recover the murder weapon.

02:05:47.540 A lot of homicides are based on witnesses, witness testimony, video of the event, and then a lot of electronic data.

02:05:56.320 You know what the media tries to do?

02:05:58.400 I like to bring this up quite a bit, is they often say that Trump said a thing without evidence.

02:06:03.220 And what they really mean is there's no proof and they conflate proof and evidence.

02:06:08.480 So like the way I describe it is a store gets robbed.

02:06:12.120 A guy gets shot.

02:06:13.160 He was shot with a 45.

02:06:15.080 Down the street, there's a guy's house and he's got 45 casings in his lawn.

02:06:20.080 And the neighbor said he was arguing with the store clerk just last week.

02:06:23.640 So there's evidence that he committed this murder.

02:06:25.420 Then you find out the guy was actually in Tahiti for the past week.

02:06:29.500 He left right away.

02:06:30.440 He hasn't been there all week and he has proof and there's videos of him partying in Tahiti.

02:06:34.340 So clearly he didn't do it.

02:06:36.260 Initially, evidence did exist.

02:06:37.800 You pursue the evidence, but it turns out it was wrong.

02:06:40.960 Yeah.

02:06:41.180 Almost everything is evidence.

02:06:43.360 Yeah.

02:06:43.580 Almost everything is evidence.

02:06:45.700 So witness testimony, forensic stuff, everything is evidence.

02:06:49.360 The difference between evidence and proof is we call it proof when we've decided it's enough evidence to make a decision.

02:06:54.680 It's evidence that's achieved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

02:06:57.820 The person's proven guilty at that point.

02:07:00.220 But you built up a mountain of evidence to get to that point.

02:07:03.140 Do you think we're getting, we only have like a couple minutes left, but do you think we're getting to the point where, like, what happens if there's a video of a guy committing a murder, but then he just says it's AI?

02:07:12.260 And then he brings in an expert who says that's AI generated, not a real video.

02:07:15.360 Yeah.

02:07:15.580 I mean, they kind of do that now.

02:07:16.660 They say, that's not me in that video.

02:07:18.360 Yeah.

02:07:18.520 I mean, they've been saying it's not me for forever.

02:07:20.360 But what if they get an MIT guy with glasses to come in and say, you see the artifacting in the top left?

02:07:25.720 That's indicative of an AI generated video.

02:07:27.400 This is not real.

02:07:28.260 That's going to be a growth industry.

02:07:29.680 Yep.

02:07:29.960 And these guys are going to, depending on who's getting accused, maybe they'll get a fundraiser with half a million bucks.

02:07:35.860 They'll need it because these guys are going to be expensive.

02:07:38.160 And can the person who claims that get in trouble?

02:07:42.440 The person who claims?

02:07:43.720 If a video editor PhD expert is hired, gets paid 50 grand to come in and say, that's a fake video made by a computer program, in my expert opinion.

02:07:58.200 Can you get in trouble for that?

02:07:59.640 Yeah.

02:08:00.940 It's just like lying on the stand.

02:08:02.320 I mean, if he's just outright lying.

02:08:03.860 But if it's just his opinion to a reasonable degree of technical certainty, that's what.

02:08:08.300 Right.

02:08:08.760 You can't prove perjury unless he later comes out and admits that he was lying, right?

02:08:12.900 Well, sometimes people do.

02:08:14.520 So, you know.

02:08:15.060 I just mean like.

02:08:16.960 No, you could prove.

02:08:17.520 We actually just had this case happen the other day.

02:08:19.680 It was like a group text message about a person that was going to state one thing.

02:08:23.900 And then when he went on the stand, stated the other.

02:08:25.480 And the prosecution said, oh, really?

02:08:28.060 Sweet.

02:08:28.560 And then laid it all on the line of why he was lying then.

02:08:31.760 Like in the movies.

02:08:32.620 Oh, man.

02:08:33.080 It was one of those.

02:08:34.060 It was one of those.

02:08:34.640 In Daredevil.

02:08:35.540 You guys watch Daredevil?

02:08:36.540 No.

02:08:36.720 The new one?

02:08:36.960 They have a witness who says, I will tell you everything.

02:08:41.280 And then when they bring him on the stand, he changes his story and says, nah, you're full of it.

02:08:45.480 That never happened.

02:08:46.500 And the funny thing about that is like, don't you guys get a sworn statement signed before you put him on the stand?

02:08:52.480 That's a huge part of my job.

02:08:56.340 And I'll try to make this really quick, like 30 seconds.

02:08:58.780 I go out of my way, especially in SVU and sort of my other detectives, that when we are doing a statement, it is one recorded audio and video.

02:09:05.760 And we ask specific questions.

02:09:07.460 Did I force you to come here today?

02:09:09.040 Did anybody promise you anything today?

02:09:10.600 Are you here of any duress?

02:09:12.200 How did I treat you?

02:09:13.820 We say these things specifically so then it's on camera.

02:09:17.200 And so when they go on the stand, they say, Detective High scared me and made me say these things.

02:09:22.420 They're going to pull up the video and go, he asked you this before and after your interview, said you're free to leave at any moment.

02:09:28.900 Then what?

02:09:29.940 Yeah. 1.00

02:09:30.380 They're screwed. 0.99

02:09:31.620 Well, this has been fun, guys. 0.99

02:09:33.400 We talked about it quite a bit.

02:09:34.740 But as we wrap up, is there anything you guys want to shout out?

02:09:37.500 Sure.

02:09:38.740 Get my free book, Law of Self-Defense Principles.

02:09:41.140 Learn how to be hard to convict if you ever have to defend yourself or your family.

02:09:44.580 Free at lawofselfdefense.com slash Tim.

02:09:48.860 Oh, hey, look at that.

02:09:49.760 There you go.

02:09:50.660 Angry Cops on social media, YouTube.

02:09:52.220 Check out me on the Unsub podcast on Wednesday where I whistle, though, that the Buffalo school system is protecting pedophiles and not assisting us in the investigations of child-on-child sexual assault. 0.99

02:10:05.080 Holy crap. 0.98

02:10:06.220 It's 20 minutes. 0.98

02:10:07.320 Jeez.

02:10:07.940 Wow.

02:10:08.620 That's terrifying.

02:10:09.340 Ouch.

02:10:09.580 Yeah, well, following that.

02:10:12.440 Yeah.

02:10:13.260 Give, send, go.

02:10:14.480 Share it with your friends and family as the platform of use for people where we share the hope of Jesus with people while they fundraise.

02:10:22.700 That's our mission.

02:10:23.680 Right on.

02:10:24.420 Gentlemen, this has been fun.

02:10:25.340 I'm glad you guys have come and we can talk all about this stuff.

02:10:27.560 We'll be back at 8 p.m. for TimCast IRL, so smash the like button, share the show.

02:10:31.420 I'm on X on Instagram at TimCast.

02:10:32.940 Thanks for hanging out.

02:10:33.520 We'll see you all tonight.

02:10:34.120 We'll see you all tonight.

02:11:04.120 And of course, some of history's most notorious murders.

02:11:07.680 Subscribe to Once Upon a Crime on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube.

The Culture War - Tim Pool - April 18, 2025

Karmelo Anthony Debate： Use Of Force & Murder w⧸ Andrew Branca, Richard Hy & Jacob Wells

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