The Culture War - Tim Pool - MAGA Civil War, Identity Politics, Christianity, & the Woke Right DEBATE

00:00:00.000 Every child deserves to splash, to laugh, to share adventures with friends, to feel like they belong.

00:00:10.920 But for some, that joy comes with a price tag that's beyond their reach.

00:00:15.440 Help the YMCA bring its transformative programs to those who can't afford them.

00:00:20.160 Because connections, cannonballs, and confidence should never be out of reach.

00:00:27.060 Donate today to your local YMCA.

00:00:30.000 YMCA in civil war gives me an excuse to say civil war not in the context of people killing each other, just in the more political context.

00:00:47.440 And that is, there's been a big debate going on for some time.

00:00:49.700 There's some animosity between prominent conservative personalities and each other and large organizations.

00:00:56.100 And this has bubbled up into the realms of conspiracy theory, as well as just mainstream debate over the direction the conservative movement should be going.

00:01:05.680 Now, Donald Trump still has several years left, and he still is basically a unifying force.

00:01:10.300 But what happens when he goes?

00:01:12.600 Will the right stick together despite disparate ideologies coming together under Trump?

00:01:17.260 Because, well, let's be honest, the left has gone particularly crazy.

00:01:20.820 But now that we're seeing the waning of woke and DEI, it seems that the differences are starting to really come to the surface between factions on the right.

00:01:30.020 And thus, we have today's debate.

00:01:32.080 So how about, we'll start here with good sir Joel.

00:01:34.840 Would you want to introduce yourself?

00:01:35.980 Yeah, my name is Joel Berry.

00:01:37.240 I'm the managing editor of the Babylon Bee and chief troll in Aaron McIntyre's comment section on Twitter.

00:01:44.880 Well, right on, and Aaron McIntyre.

00:01:47.860 Hey, I'm Aaron McIntyre, a host of a show on Blaze TV, Aaron McIntyre's show, catch it on YouTube, Rumble, all of those places.

00:01:54.660 Let's just, real quick, about an elevator pitch, what is the debate?

00:01:59.680 What is the argument?

00:02:01.960 Well, I guess, you know, first of all, I think it's a debate worth having in the open.

00:02:07.580 And I think it's encouraging that we're having this debate.

00:02:11.180 It's a sign that we've kind of won in one sense.

00:02:15.040 We've made it to level two.

00:02:16.840 The only interesting conversations being had right now are on the right, between the right and the right, and other factions of the right.

00:02:24.000 And we're at this point where we kind of have to define who we are and who we're not, what our vision for the future is.

00:02:30.360 We've been defined so long by what we're against, and that's really easy.

00:02:34.460 And now we have to start kind of being defined by what we're for.

00:02:40.180 And so within that, there's a bunch of different issues.

00:02:42.560 There are many different issues.

00:02:43.860 And so the debate is basically, what is the identity of the right moving forward?

00:02:47.080 Is that one way to put it?

00:02:48.380 I think so.

00:02:48.940 Do you agree with that assessment?

00:02:51.500 Yeah, I think that's reasonable.

00:02:52.940 I think, obviously, as Joel said, what was holding us together was fighting the left.

00:02:57.320 And as soon as you get done, the nature of coalitional politics is the minute you come into power, then you decide what part of the coalition is going to be driving this thing.

00:03:06.580 And I think there's a lot of clashes that were unresolved, even though Trump took power and unified in a lot of ways, foreign policy, a lot of American identity, issues of nationalism.

00:03:16.700 These things were not completely addressed.

00:03:18.720 And so now they have to be worked through in one way or another.

00:03:21.140 And that's what you're seeing play itself out.

00:03:22.760 Right on.

00:03:23.180 So before we get started, we do have a great sponsor.

00:03:24.900 It is Bearskin.

00:03:26.560 You can go to Bearskintactical.com or B-A-E-R.skin slash Tim.

00:03:31.060 You guys know about the Bearskin hoodie, right?

00:03:32.880 I've worn it on the show quite a bit.

00:03:34.900 It's amazing.

00:03:36.080 It's very comfortable.

00:03:36.760 It's got a lot of pockets.

00:03:37.960 Now that's your chance to get one, 60% off, it's great.

00:03:41.140 We're in hoodie season, so it's my favorite season, by the way, for obvious reasons.

00:03:45.740 You can, cold mornings, windy days, surprise snow, you'll want to be wearing one of these things.

00:03:49.940 It is built to last 340 GSM Bearskin Fleece, 10 pockets, rugged, athletic fit.

00:03:56.280 It actually looks good.

00:03:57.460 Plus, if it starts pouring, you can zip on the Heavy Storm Rain Jacket and instantly level up to full waterproof protection.

00:04:03.760 You get free U.S. shipping from their U.S. warehouse and gear that'll last you season after season.

00:04:08.120 So here's what you do.

00:04:09.320 Text Tim to 36912.

00:04:10.940 Again, that's Tim to 36912.

00:04:14.720 And they'll text you a link so you can lock in your 60% off before the sale disappears.

00:04:18.640 Don't wait till it's over.

00:04:20.160 Grab your Bearskin now while the Black Friday sale is live.

00:04:23.820 You'll also be helping the Fallen Outdoors and Hope for the Warriors Veterans Program.

00:04:28.720 So you're not just buying great gear.

00:04:30.360 You're backing a cause that matters.

00:04:32.140 Grab your Bearskin while the Black Friday deal is live by texting Tim to 36912.

00:04:37.160 Check it out.

00:04:37.860 Shout out to Bearskin for sponsoring the show.

00:04:40.520 But let's get back to the debate at hand, the questions.

00:04:43.080 And I want to start with this.

00:04:45.600 One of the breaking points, I suppose, or one of the inflection points is Tucker Carlson.

00:04:53.500 It's not just the interview with Nick Fuentes, but also his appearance at Charlie Kirk's memorial and his general sentiment towards Israel, Zionism, or some people have just outright said he's anti-Semitic.

00:05:04.460 And we saw text messages from Candace Owens from Charlie talking about not wanting to remove Tucker Carlson, though there were donors pressuring him to do so.

00:05:14.720 So it seems like this is the big point.

00:05:18.220 And it seems like the word that pops up every time is Israel.

00:05:23.000 Is this maybe the central focus of what this argument is about, or are there other issues at play?

00:05:29.280 I want to say no.

00:05:30.480 I think Israel is maybe kind of a symptom of the problem, and it can be a huge distraction.

00:05:36.580 And we could sit here for three hours kind of going back and forth about Israel because it's such a contentious issue.

00:05:41.360 But I think the fight is a little more fundamental than that.

00:05:47.020 And Aron, I want you to make sure I'm characterizing it fairly, too.

00:05:51.540 But maybe it would help if we kind of—I wrote down a little diatribe here because I wanted to kind of just list all of the things that I think we do agree on.

00:06:00.880 Because the question I get all the time, and I've heard you being asked this question as well, like, why are Joel Berry and Aron McIntyre fighting?

00:06:08.680 Like, why are you guys at odds with each other?

00:06:11.060 You seem to agree on, like, 98% of stuff.

00:06:13.780 What's going on?

00:06:15.380 So I wanted to kind of define that a little bit.

00:06:21.060 Is that fair?

00:06:22.040 Like, can I just kind of, like, run through some of these things?

00:06:24.520 Get it.

00:06:24.880 And then you just tell me, like, if I'm off or, you know, if I'm characterizing it well.

00:06:29.980 I think this is where we agree.

00:06:32.200 So in 2006, I was in Fallujah.

00:06:34.940 I was an infantry Marine, thinking I was fighting for my country, fighting them over there so we wouldn't have to fight them over here, that whole line, you know.

00:06:43.260 But when I came back, I started school.

00:06:44.840 I went to university.

00:06:45.720 I realized that the real battle to save America, it wasn't overseas.

00:06:49.500 It was here because the most dangerous enemy to our republic was running our universities and institutions.

00:06:54.780 So what we've seen over the last 150 years, leftism has destroyed our culture and our Constitution from FDR's New Deal and his devastating expansion on the bureaucracy, the horror of abortion, LBJ's Great Society.

00:07:08.440 It destroyed the black family, permanently dependent underclass.

00:07:11.460 We've watched over a century as our Constitution has been eaten away from civil rights law, which led to the permanent enshrining of leftist dogma, from racial quotas in congressional districts to DEI to forcing women to change with men in their locker rooms.

00:07:26.820 We've seen the value of our dollar be destroyed by government spending.

00:07:30.600 We've watched as our own nation became a totalitarian state during COVID, and no one has been held accountable for that.

00:07:37.980 We've seen our government and media lie to us again and again.

00:07:40.940 Mass immigration is destroying our culture.

00:07:42.940 Leftist judges and DAs punish good and reward evil.

00:07:45.960 Young men can't afford to buy homes.

00:07:47.440 Young women are completely fried on SSRIs, birth control, and communist religion pumped into their cute, empathetic female brains.

00:07:55.360 Americans are not having babies anymore.

00:07:57.420 Muslim immigrants are.

00:07:58.360 We watch as death to America is chanted from Dearborn.

00:08:02.160 Somali flags are flown in Minneapolis after we fought two pointless wars on the false premise that if we fight them over there, we don't have to fight them over here.

00:08:10.680 Young white men were subjected to the most wicked bigotry and racism and discrimination.

00:08:16.180 And all the while we watched as our, quote-unquote, dignified conservative class did nothing about it.

00:08:22.840 We heard lofty platitudes, and conservatism conserved very little.

00:08:27.020 We saw our churches.

00:08:28.200 We saw cowardly pastors who were supposed to be speaking truth into the culture and standing against the spirit of the age, instead went along with it.

00:08:35.460 And so here we are, and a ton of people have lost faith in everything.

00:08:39.660 And a ton of people are like, just burn it all down.

00:08:43.060 And I think...

00:08:44.020 I would say that we kind of agree with the problem, right?

00:08:48.480 Sure.

00:08:49.160 You would be on board with all of those.

00:08:50.820 Yeah.

00:08:50.980 And I think that's why, you know, Arne and I are polemicists.

00:08:54.880 We're really good at pointing at something that sucks and saying, hey, look at this.

00:08:58.080 This really sucks.

00:08:59.900 And that's easy mode.

00:09:01.680 You know, the hard part is, like, pointing the way out.

00:09:06.780 What do we do now?

00:09:08.180 How do we get out of this?

00:09:09.320 How do we turn it around?

00:09:10.580 Can it be turned around?

00:09:12.020 And I think that's where Arne and I develop, you know, like, we diverge a little bit.

00:09:15.240 And I kind of wrote three points that I think maybe we can kind of delve into deeper.

00:09:20.900 The first thing, I think the Constitution is still relevant, and I think we can get back to it.

00:09:26.020 Two, I believe that your political theory over relies on, like, these political theory, real politic,

00:09:35.000 kind of like a spiritually devoid realism that I think is a little imbalanced.

00:09:41.480 And then three, I believe that there is a way back.

00:09:43.600 I don't think, like, the only way out is through.

00:09:45.460 I think that we can claw our way back.

00:09:48.740 Well, I have a question on your first point.

00:09:50.860 What was it?

00:09:51.400 The Constitution is still relevant?

00:09:52.860 How did you turn it?

00:09:53.800 Yeah.

00:09:54.160 So, you know, one thing that is often said by kind of the dissident right or post-liberal crowd is that,

00:09:59.260 you know, you hear this quote from John Adams all the time, that our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people.

00:10:05.140 It's inadequate for the government of any other.

00:10:07.340 We're no longer a moral and religious people, and so the Constitution is inadequate, you know.

00:10:11.600 And there is some truth to that.

00:10:14.800 But I also think that it's not too late.

00:10:20.780 When you say the Constitution, do you mean the original intention?

00:10:24.540 Yeah.

00:10:25.040 Yeah, I would say that.

00:10:25.640 Blasphemy should be illegal.

00:10:27.820 Well, blasphemy wasn't outlawed in the original Constitution.

00:10:31.220 Blasphemy is illegal.

00:10:32.740 At the founding of this country, when the Constitution—

00:10:36.120 It was, yeah.

00:10:36.460 —you couldn't blaspheme.

00:10:37.940 You also couldn't swear in public or, say, obscenities.

00:10:41.380 Correct.

00:10:41.980 And the interpretation—the important thing to understand about the Constitution is that we interpret it wholly differently from how it was interpreted by the founders,

00:10:49.240 in that it only applies to federal law.

00:10:51.440 Meaning, if you lived in Virginia and Virginia said guns are banned, then guns were banned.

00:10:55.200 But the federal government couldn't ban states from allowing people or couldn't ban the ownership of guns.

00:11:01.680 So when we look at the Constitution right now and people say it should apply, they're talking about a dramatically different interpretation.

00:11:09.220 Right.

00:11:09.480 Yes.

00:11:09.860 Yeah.

00:11:10.320 Go ahead.

00:11:11.120 When you say the Constitution is still relevant, the question is which one, right?

00:11:16.300 Because, as Tim has pointed out, after the incorporation doctrine, we radically changed our understanding of what the Constitution meant.

00:11:23.940 Of course, another radical change comes—I mean, we don't number our republics, but we have changed the fundamental meaning of the Constitution many times over.

00:11:33.420 When we got rid of the Articles of Confederation, we were one country.

00:11:36.720 You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada.

00:11:43.500 Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads.

00:11:48.460 Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads.

00:11:59.140 Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more.

00:12:01.880 That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com.

00:12:06.060 A new one, when we instituted the 14th Amendment after the Civil War, that radically changed the way that federalism works.

00:12:11.820 We basically destroyed the 10th Amendment right then and there.

00:12:14.900 Incorporation doctrine changes it.

00:12:16.440 Again, the civil rights regime more or less rewrites the entire Constitution and our understanding of it.

00:12:21.700 So the question is, I have for most people who want to return to the Constitution, is which one?

00:12:26.780 Because what I find is most conservatives say, oh, I want to go back to the founding.

00:12:30.340 No, you don't.

00:12:31.280 You don't want to go back to what the founders actually believed.

00:12:34.100 You don't want to go—and that's okay.

00:12:35.600 But let's be honest about what we're talking about.

00:12:38.020 What we believe now, what conservatives in the 1990s believed, what they believe now, is radically different from what the founders believed.

00:12:45.240 And if we went back to what the founders believed, most people saying, I want to return to the Constitution, would be up in arms and they'd call it some kind of religious Christian nationalist fascism.

00:12:54.900 Like, they would.

00:12:55.920 They absolutely would.

00:12:56.780 They wouldn't let the Immigration Act of 1790—like, they would not support a return to those things.

00:13:05.200 So that's critical when we say we can go back.

00:13:07.680 It's going back to what?

00:13:08.960 When?

00:13:09.300 I agree.

00:13:10.040 And I think that those are all conversations that need to be had, but they need to be had in the context of we're trying to restore something that's been broken, that's been eroded.

00:13:20.860 And what I feel like I see from you and a lot of your approach online and with a lot of the political philosophers that you talk to—and again, correct me if I'm seeing you wrong, but I almost—you know, when you—you're a huge promoter of people like Curtis Yarvin, Nick Land, almost this kind of accelerationist idea.

00:13:46.600 And Charles Haywood's another, I think, good example of this.

00:13:50.460 He wrote the Foundationalist Manifesto.

00:13:52.340 You know, you've had him on your show as well.

00:13:54.920 And he famously, in his manifesto, says that, like, there's no way back.

00:13:58.860 Like, he says, the way is shut.

00:14:00.960 The only way to fix this is to accelerate its demise, destroy it, burn it down through civil war, bloodshed, whatever it takes, and then build something new from the ashes.

00:14:10.480 And that's kind of where I draw the line, is, you know, I think that we can have these conversations in the context of, like, okay, I want to be a radical restorationist.

00:14:23.400 Let's talk about how far back we need to go.

00:14:26.580 You know, maybe we don't want to go all the way back to the founding.

00:14:28.520 Maybe there's a middle ground there.

00:14:29.940 But it should be in the context of going back to the original intent of the American Republic, not this accelerationist, it's too late, we're all black-pilled, let's just burn it all down.

00:14:41.880 And that seems to be the attitude, I think, of a lot, especially the young right.

00:14:45.800 They're in such despair, and they're so hopeless that they don't see a way back.

00:14:50.260 And I think it's important for conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, who we believe in God, we believe in miracles, we believe that anything is possible, to show that it is possible.

00:15:00.500 You know, if people stand up for what's right, if we have courage, if we clearly articulate our beliefs, we can, you know, we may not, nothing's guaranteed, we may lose the battle, but we've got to fight the battle.

00:15:11.260 What year do you think America is what it was supposed to be, or, like, what are we...

00:15:17.580 I don't know.

00:15:18.060 I mean, I think, you know, I think a good, you know, thesis statement or mission statement for the country comes from the Declaration of Independence.

00:15:30.380 Chesterton, you know, famously said that America is the only country that was founded on a creed, that the Declaration is not just a document of...

00:15:41.020 It's not just a legal document, it's a document of philosophy and theology and literature.

00:15:45.380 And it's kind of articulating what we're striving for.

00:15:49.500 Should blasphemy be illegal?

00:15:52.500 I don't think so.

00:15:53.980 I mean, well, it depends.

00:15:55.380 What do you mean by blasphemy?

00:15:56.740 I mean, how local...

00:15:58.180 Illegal at what level?

00:15:59.400 The federal level?

00:16:00.180 Well, so I pulled up this story.

00:16:01.400 The last...

00:16:01.940 One of the most famous cases, it's the last time someone was actually criminally prosecuted.

00:16:05.860 It's Commonwealth of Massachusetts v. Abner Neeland, 1838.

00:16:11.120 And he was convicted for blasphemy and sentenced to 60 days, and the Supreme Court refused to take his case.

00:16:17.240 The blasphemy was illegal for a long time.

00:16:21.400 But this was the last of it.

00:16:22.740 But 1789, when free speech was enshrined, the interesting thing is that there actually was not free speech.

00:16:29.620 And there's an interesting understanding of...

00:16:31.620 If we're to look at the original articles, what the intention was of the First Amendment,

00:16:36.160 it was that the Founding Fathers, for a period of decades, were trying to meet at bars or churches

00:16:41.800 and have conversations about how governance should be held in the colonies.

00:16:45.260 And the Crown disrupted these, shut them down, and charged people for having these conversations.

00:16:50.480 The principal element of the First Amendment, the right to peaceably assemble,

00:16:53.740 meant literally, if me and my boys are at church and we want to have a conversation about what's going on in our country,

00:16:58.320 you can't stop us.

00:16:59.380 That's turned into raging lunatics standing outside of police stations screaming and throwing rocks,

00:17:05.920 and judges saying, eh, well, they have a First Amendment right to do it.

00:17:08.820 Or more importantly, blocking roads and streets, linking arms, and gluing themselves to the ground,

00:17:13.300 which is not.

00:17:15.260 What I see as this, and additionally with the Second Amendment, which is very interesting,

00:17:20.740 in that the Second Amendment was intended to mean that the people would be armed.

00:17:25.760 You can't have a militia unless, you know, Abner is in his barn with a rifle.

00:17:30.380 However, it meant the federal government couldn't come in.

00:17:32.980 This is why up until the 80s, states were May issue, almost every single state.

00:17:37.620 And we've won tremendously on universal rights for guns, but it is very different.

00:17:41.720 You go back to the 1780s, or you go to 1790, or even 1800, you'd ride your horse into town,

00:17:49.460 and the local deputy would say, hand over your weapons.

00:17:52.360 You have no right to have those here, and there's no protection for that.

00:17:55.720 So the question then becomes, if we're trying to maintain a constitution, a government,

00:18:00.340 I think Oren makes a good point of when, which one, what is the actual argument for what the

00:18:05.240 country was, and why we support it.

00:18:08.700 And this is, it's frustrating to me because I hear this a lot from moderate or mainstream

00:18:13.740 conservatives, arguments about defending the constitution.

00:18:16.780 Well, the left says quite literally the exact same thing, but they view it very differently.

00:18:21.840 So what I think we're seeing is-

00:18:23.700 What do you mean by, like, give me an example.

00:18:25.300 The leftists argue that we have free speech, but free speech never included hate speech.

00:18:30.580 Hate speech, of course, is speech meant to deride or denigrate minorities or specific groups

00:18:35.480 of people.

00:18:36.280 Free speech meant you could express your opinion, including burning flags.

00:18:39.600 The right says, no, no, burning a flag is out of the question, but you are allowed to

00:18:43.940 disparage whoever you want.

00:18:44.740 There's different interpretations of what the First Amendment was supposed to be.

00:18:48.580 So if you go back to the founding, free speech was no blasphemy.

00:18:52.960 You certainly can't lock yourself together in the middle of the road.

00:18:56.940 That was nonsense.

00:18:58.760 Now we have a wholly different view.

00:19:01.440 In fact, George Carlin got arrested for swearing.

00:19:03.200 You couldn't swear back then.

00:19:04.140 You couldn't say obscenities.

00:19:05.500 Right.

00:19:05.800 So we certainly don't believe in free speech as the founders saw it.

00:19:09.100 We don't believe in free speech as they saw it in 1830.

00:19:11.580 We have a different interpretation.

00:19:12.820 And since the past maybe 15 or maybe 20 years, there's been a bifurcation in American culture

00:19:19.000 as to the understanding of what all of these amendments actually do, notably the Bill of

00:19:24.400 Rights, but even up to the 14th Amendment now, where the argument is anyone born here is

00:19:29.120 American, whereas the rights argument is, no, no, this meant if you were born here at the

00:19:34.220 time, you were a citizen.

00:19:36.020 So I don't know what we're trying to maintain or restore with a constitution other than we

00:19:40.640 have a moral worldview.

00:19:42.180 We use some of the amendments to defend and uphold that moral worldview, to be completely

00:19:46.480 honest.

00:19:47.060 If the majority of people in this country decided that the 14th Amendment meant something different,

00:19:50.800 it would be applied that way.

00:19:51.860 So the constitution really is largely a symbol.

00:19:55.840 So this is really critical.

00:19:57.500 And this is what I want establishment conservatives to understand.

00:20:01.020 Look, I grew up on talk radio conservatism.

00:20:03.600 I totally understand these pitches.

00:20:04.980 I believe all these pitches.

00:20:06.600 I'm familiar with what they're saying.

00:20:09.960 When you turn the constitution into a deity, when you deify the constitution, when you make

00:20:15.500 it the central identity, you create a scenario where people are just fighting over the meaning

00:20:20.260 of the words so they can control the definition.

00:20:23.200 A constitution is not some contract that's written up that then defines the country.

00:20:29.640 A constitution is a reflection of the way that the people are constituted.

00:20:34.980 It is the way that they live their lives, their traditions, their beliefs, their values,

00:20:38.960 their heritage, their language, their understanding.

00:20:41.720 The constitution doesn't make the people.

00:20:44.360 The people make the constitution.

00:20:46.680 So the constitution only works when the people are already living in the way that the constitution

00:20:53.260 lays out for them.

00:20:54.760 That's what makes a republic a republic because they are people who are self-governing.

00:20:59.740 They are living in the way of tradition and no one needs to come in and tell them how to

00:21:04.320 live their lives and dictate to them each move because they already have such a tightly woven

00:21:09.000 cultural identity that everything is second nature.

00:21:12.740 They govern themselves, which is to say the community governs.

00:21:16.660 It is tied to those traditions and those beliefs.

00:21:19.260 The constitution has never and will never compel people to live in a particular way.

00:21:25.460 And when you turn the constitution into this, you know, the thing that defines you as a people,

00:21:31.320 then it's just about arguing over what that document means.

00:21:34.480 And that's why we've so radically changed what the country is because we abstracted ourselves

00:21:39.420 into this legal definition that can be manipulated by people making arguments rather than tying it

00:21:44.320 to actual beliefs, actual religion, actual tradition.

00:21:48.060 Well, okay, so you're partially right there in the sense that the constitution and our laws are

00:21:53.020 a reflection of the people, but you're kind of doing this postmodern thing where, you know,

00:21:57.120 at some point, what do words mean?

00:21:59.400 People define them differently.

00:22:00.740 It's whoever's in power is the one who makes the decision.

00:22:03.900 You know, I'm a moral realist.

00:22:05.760 I believe that words actually do mean something.

00:22:08.700 You can determine what words mean based off of the intent of the person who wrote them

00:22:13.320 to the best of your ability.

00:22:16.040 And, you know, while, yes, the people create the constitution, I also think that the constitution

00:22:22.040 and the laws shape the people.

00:22:25.620 And I'll give you an illustration of this.

00:22:28.200 So, you know, if the constitution is just a snapshot of the people, why did we have to

00:22:34.940 write it down?

00:22:35.360 Like, I mean, why do you think we had to write it down?

00:22:39.040 Well, the argument, again, for many is that you don't, right?

00:22:41.940 This is that Joseph De Maester goes into quite a bit of detail in the generative nature of

00:22:47.480 political constitutions as to the advantages and disadvantages of writing things down.

00:22:52.260 And this is something, by the way...

00:22:53.700 But why do you need the government to enforce it?

00:22:55.600 If it's all coming from the people, why do you even need a government to enforce the

00:23:00.780 law?

00:23:01.080 I mean, if it's just, if it's springing from the people and the people are going to do

00:23:03.840 what they're going to do, because they're constituted correctly.

00:23:06.360 I think your question actually goes to Aron's point as to why you need it written down.

00:23:09.760 It's because the anti-federalists and the federalists were debating.

00:23:11.820 I was just getting to that.

00:23:12.800 Yeah.

00:23:12.940 Yeah.

00:23:13.160 Because not everyone was on board, right?

00:23:15.260 No, more importantly, the federalists did not want a bill of rights because they were

00:23:21.740 worried that enumerating the rights would make people believe that those are the only

00:23:25.500 rights available to them.

00:23:27.520 Right.

00:23:27.640 So they actually thought that writing it down, capturing those rights, guaranteeing those

00:23:31.940 rights was a downside for the constitution because it would be limiting.

00:23:36.720 And so this is one of the things, if people have rights, you don't have to tell them.

00:23:40.600 You don't have to enumerate them.

00:23:41.940 That was the understanding of the federalists, which is why they push back against this.

00:23:46.100 And so you end up in this scenario where, look, you understand, having been to the Middle

00:23:52.040 East, right?

00:23:52.660 Like that actually, the idea that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit

00:23:58.280 of happiness or property is not actually self-evident to a lot of cultures, a lot of peoples, right?

00:24:04.840 Correct.

00:24:05.420 And so actually...

00:24:06.580 Any non-Christian culture.

00:24:07.580 Correct.

00:24:08.020 Right.

00:24:08.260 And so when we say self-evident, we meant self-evident to a specific people.

00:24:12.140 So it's not that I don't believe words don't have meaning.

00:24:14.420 Well, the original draft of the constitution didn't say self-evident.

00:24:17.580 It said something like divine and inspired.

00:24:19.660 It was more religious in nature.

00:24:21.360 Because the declaration was, it was a statement of theology.

00:24:24.900 It was a Christian state.

00:24:25.700 It wasn't enlightenment.

00:24:26.680 You know, the other thing, too, you know, I think one of the big debates, you know, there's

00:24:32.020 kind of this new populism on the right.

00:24:34.660 It's very, it's more, I don't even know how to describe it.

00:24:37.640 It's more focused on people.

00:24:39.440 It's a little more animal, a little more real.

00:24:42.000 Whereas you kind of have the pie in the sky conservatives that are all like law and these

00:24:46.120 abstract principles, right?

00:24:47.160 And so there's, I think there's a middle ground there where both of these meet.

00:24:54.060 We, you know, for example, we know that we were constituted, you know, our stock, the

00:24:58.980 founding stock of America was the same as the stock in Europe at the time, you know, but

00:25:03.860 we still had to separate from Europe and we did it with a document.

00:25:07.600 You know, we were the same people genetically, but we still had to separate them from them.

00:25:12.480 You know, we had, because we had Europeans, Christian Europeans under a Christian tyrant

00:25:16.640 living under tyranny and despotism in Great Britain.

00:25:20.140 And so it was that, it was that document that created that separation of one people from

00:25:25.620 another.

00:25:26.260 There was one other point on the Federalist versus Anti-Federalists, and it's the Anti-Federalist

00:25:30.360 side, that if these rights are not written down, they will change and we will lose them.

00:25:36.240 And so considering they were different states and the views were all slightly different, they

00:25:41.840 said, no, no, these have to be guaranteed.

00:25:43.780 Otherwise, 20 years from now, the federal government's going to say, no, you actually can't do that.

00:25:47.800 And so they wanted it written down.

00:25:50.080 They were right.

00:25:50.920 They were right.

00:25:51.880 However.

00:25:52.500 I mean, if we hadn't had those written down, they would have dissolved very quickly.

00:25:55.400 I disagree.

00:25:56.200 Because, I mean, people have been, those rights have been under attack since the founding.

00:26:02.340 I mean, for 250 years.

00:26:03.540 The main issue here is, one, to the offense of anybody who's not Christian, or I suppose

00:26:10.780 that's not necessarily true, but this is a Christian nation, was founded as such, and

00:26:15.660 the issue is that the federal constitution did not proclaim this because each state had

00:26:21.420 their own rules as to, their own laws as to the Christianity.

00:26:26.540 Most notably with Commonwealth v. Massachusetts, Abner Nyland was specifically charged for denying

00:26:32.220 Christ.

00:26:34.360 Each colony had a requirement that you profess a belief in a Christian God.

00:26:40.420 I believe Maryland was the only one.

00:26:42.200 Well, I think Virginia was, because Thomas Jefferson, you just had to believe in God.

00:26:46.980 I believe it was a Christian God of some sort.

00:26:49.500 But Maryland, because they were largely Catholic, allowed you to just say, if it's a Christian

00:26:54.440 God, you're good.

00:26:55.260 But the states all basically said, if you don't believe in Christ, you cannot hold office.

00:27:00.440 And that is a Christian nation.

00:27:02.080 Now, the federal constitution avoided asserting a specific religion because then you get the

00:27:07.820 Catholics in Maryland upset with the Protestants of Virginia.

00:27:12.260 And now, today, liberals argue the federal constitution never says God, never says Christianity,

00:27:18.000 and we have drifted from those moral traditions largely more and more over time.

00:27:22.040 So again, I appreciate the federal constitution.

00:27:25.520 I think it's great.

00:27:26.280 But I also think there's an issue with abandoning state constitutions and acting like they don't

00:27:31.040 exist.

00:27:31.900 Yeah.

00:27:32.460 No, I agree.

00:27:33.580 I agree.

00:27:34.320 Well, you know, federalism took a terrible blow in the Civil War.

00:27:40.520 And it's hard to argue for federalism from that standpoint now, because then people will

00:27:45.100 say you're arguing for slavery and all this stuff, and that puts you in a bind.

00:27:49.120 But we do need kind of a reassertion of federalism.

00:27:52.380 I think we do need a reassertion of—and this is kind of what can be fun about this discussion.

00:27:58.300 We have 250 years of history that we can look back on where we can say, like, there's precedent

00:28:05.260 for this.

00:28:06.120 Like, you know, this isn't an un-American thing that we're proposing.

00:28:09.400 We can propose it from that standpoint, that we're not coming in as Christian nationalists

00:28:15.480 from the outside here to subvert America and subvert the Constitution and turn America

00:28:19.780 into our own thing.

00:28:21.080 We're talking about going back to, you know, what we were for the first, you know, 80 years

00:28:27.160 of our existence.

00:28:28.400 And so—

00:28:28.980 Yeah, this is actually my problem with the term Christian nationalism.

00:28:32.120 I don't like it because I think it makes something novel out of what is just being in America.

00:28:36.420 Yes.

00:28:36.960 We were already a Christian nation.

00:28:39.000 There's no need for a new term for it.

00:28:40.640 It's not new.

00:28:41.160 It's not novel.

00:28:41.680 We didn't—you know, Stephen Wolfe didn't cook it up somewhere.

00:28:44.980 It's just the way that the United States has functioned.

00:28:47.720 But the problem—and this is a core issue, Joel, you have to address, right?

00:28:53.920 Republics are a very specific form of government.

00:28:57.140 It's not just people vote.

00:28:58.920 That's not what a republic is.

00:29:00.540 A republic is a gathering of self-governing people who live in a specific way and have enough

00:29:06.420 virtue that they do not require a centralizing force to smooth over their differences because

00:29:12.580 they don't have the level of discipline or cultural homogeneity to solve these problems.

00:29:17.320 Republics are regularly cited from everyone from Aristotle to Machiavelli as a place where

00:29:24.040 the citizens specifically fight in the military.

00:29:27.140 That you can't have a standing army and have a republic.

00:29:30.020 And you know who said that?

00:29:31.100 The guy's writing the Federalist Papers who said very specifically, the reason that you're

00:29:35.460 keeping the Second Amendment and the reason that you need to turn your militias over to

00:29:38.900 the federal government is so that we don't have standing armies.

00:29:40.760 Because if we do, that's a danger to the sovereignty of the people and will eventually corrode the

00:29:46.020 republic.

00:29:46.900 Republics can't span continents.

00:29:48.900 They can't be empires.

00:29:50.400 They can't scale to the problem—to the way we've had.

00:29:52.940 And that's why it's so difficult to discuss the United States as a republic since the Civil

00:29:57.440 War because that's obviously a case of imperial expansion.

00:30:01.160 That's not self-governance.

00:30:02.540 And so you have the problem where we are not and have not been a republic for a very long

00:30:07.400 time.

00:30:07.840 We in no way, shape, or form meet that definition.

00:30:10.980 And yet we continue to pretend that that's the case.

00:30:13.180 If you want to go back, okay, fine.

00:30:14.980 But you have to make radical, radical changes to return to the form of a republic.

00:30:20.020 And frankly, I don't think anyone is comfortable limiting the franchise down to one person per

00:30:26.080 household, making it only property owners, making sure only Christians can be elected

00:30:31.800 officials, making sure that only people who have done military service could vote or be

00:30:35.660 elected.

00:30:36.300 These are all reasonable parties.

00:30:36.940 I think you'd be surprised because we're at this place where, like, in the conservative

00:30:42.660 movement, all the gravity's out of the room.

00:30:44.580 We're not sure where anything is going to land.

00:30:46.880 You know, people like Nick Fuentes are gaining traction no matter what crazy things they say.

00:30:53.540 Like, I think it's an open ballgame for us to, like, make bold assertions and bold proposals

00:31:02.440 for how we can restore this republic.

00:31:05.200 I think the reason...

00:31:06.300 But it has to be in the context of a return, not an acceleration to a demise and a rebuild.

00:31:12.700 A return to what?

00:31:14.660 Well, that's the debate.

00:31:16.120 And I think...

00:31:16.460 Christian nation?

00:31:17.080 I think we can have compromises on that.

00:31:20.000 I think, you know, with federalism, we can have a different, you know, we can have a

00:31:25.520 patchwork of different ideas.

00:31:28.180 Here's what I see.

00:31:29.340 I think there's a reason why people like Nick Fuentes, largely Nick Fuentes, are growing

00:31:33.120 in audience.

00:31:34.500 One, I do think it's fair to say that he's certainly moderated.

00:31:37.240 You know, years ago, he was saying shocking things for the sake of being the shocking guy.

00:31:42.300 He got canceled and he went way off the deep end.

00:31:44.520 Now he's trying to pull it a little bit back down, though he does say things that are still,

00:31:47.860 by many, you know, off the rails.

00:31:50.000 But he's aggressive.

00:31:52.400 And I think when you point out that this country has sort of let these things go, if Christianity

00:32:00.680 had been stronger or the leaders in the 1950s had been more aggressive, none of this would

00:32:07.180 be happening.

00:32:08.140 And so today you look at all the problems we face and there is something that is very

00:32:12.660 clear, demographics being destiny.

00:32:15.200 If you're a Christian nation and everyone's Christian, guess what?

00:32:18.720 You don't have that high a crime, right?

00:32:20.320 If everybody was of the same moral worldview as Charlie Kirk, you don't need police anymore.

00:32:27.260 No one's going to steal from each other.

00:32:28.600 They're going to help each other out.

00:32:29.880 You probably don't even need insurance companies because everyone will come and help build each

00:32:33.160 other's home.

00:32:34.180 But you need these systems.

00:32:35.560 You need these laws as you start inviting in other cultures and moral worldviews to the

00:32:39.900 point where in Dearborn, Michigan, you have a problem with female genital mutilation, which

00:32:44.340 is normal to them.

00:32:45.240 Or you have Sharia patrols popping up in New York and other places.

00:32:48.180 So then Nick Fuentes comes around and he says to these young men, look at what these people

00:32:53.900 have wrought.

00:32:54.860 They claimed to be for America.

00:32:56.480 They claimed to be Christian, but they invited in infidels, blasphemers, and those people

00:33:02.060 have, for your worldview, destroyed the fabric of your nation.

00:33:07.400 We should reverse that.

00:33:08.620 And they say, he's correct.

00:33:10.380 Yep.

00:33:10.960 So then, what is the solution?

00:33:14.680 I don't see that as...

00:33:15.620 I mean, Nick Fuentes is not the first person to say that, though.

00:33:18.520 I mean, Rush Limbaugh was saying that in the 90s.

00:33:20.100 I mean, Rush Limbaugh was a populist.

00:33:21.380 He was talking about Chamber of Commerce conservatives who are married to the corporations, who are

00:33:26.600 bringing in immigrants because they care more about the Dow and the GDP than they care about

00:33:33.820 American citizens.

00:33:34.760 So this is nothing...

00:33:35.600 Like, Nick Fuentes is...the problem is nothing new, and Nick Fuentes is not the first person

00:33:40.360 to address it.

00:33:42.920 You know, I...and Nick Fuentes, too...the thing that I've been warning about with him is that,

00:33:50.160 you know, he just had this...there's this video going around now where he's calling for

00:33:56.420 the America First right to unite with the left.

00:34:00.600 Give up the free market, and the left can give up on immigration so that we can have

00:34:06.520 an ethnically homogenous country again that is also socialist.

00:34:10.360 Because he is an economic leftist.

00:34:11.980 Right.

00:34:12.340 And I think he's always been.

00:34:13.960 I don't think...

00:34:14.800 See, this is...

00:34:15.440 And that is...and that is absolute slavery.

00:34:18.660 And that, you know, that's the thing that I think MAGA has gotten away from it a little

00:34:22.660 bit, you know, because we're so disillusioned with how capitalism has exploited people and

00:34:28.440 corporations have gotten too big and powerful.

00:34:30.860 I understand all that.

00:34:32.300 I...

00:34:32.620 But if we...if we give our freedom, our economic freedom away to the government, I mean, that

00:34:38.500 is...we become slaves.

00:34:40.460 Not if you have a Christian government of true Christian virtue.

00:34:42.880 This is...this is the...the thing about demographics and destiny is that, as I mentioned, if everyone

00:34:47.440 in this country had the memorial worldview of Charlie Kirk, you'd need no police.

00:34:51.060 No one had a problem tithing back in the day.

00:34:53.400 And it was something they look forward to doing.

00:34:56.360 In fact, they'd go to their church.

00:34:57.480 They'd...they'd tithe.

00:34:58.480 Literally...what is that?

00:34:59.140 10% would go to the church, which was a communal effort.

00:35:02.940 And if this country was...let's...I mean, this is utopian thinking, but let's just say...let's

00:35:09.500 let's...let's...let's...let's move off to utopia and say 95% legitimate Christian moral

00:35:16.100 worldview, church going every...every Sunday.

00:35:18.380 When the...the politicians are all of the same moral virtue, and they say, your money

00:35:25.840 will...there's no problem.

00:35:28.980 Everybody would be happy with it, and there'd be...there'd be no dissent.

00:35:32.420 The problem is...

00:35:33.100 I disagree.

00:35:34.680 And the reason is, we can look at...we can look at 18th century Europe.

00:35:38.700 You know, Great Britain was Christian.

00:35:40.540 They had a Christian king.

00:35:41.700 Everyone there was Christian.

00:35:43.220 Most of the European countries were Christian or Catholic or Protestant.

00:35:46.280 They...there was still slavery.

00:35:48.720 There was still tyranny.

00:35:50.040 They were still all murdering and killing each other.

00:35:52.360 The lower class was still infected with syphilis and getting drunk and addicted to alcohol

00:35:58.060 and gambling.

00:35:59.220 You know, the...

00:36:00.500 I think that's a...

00:36:01.240 The problems...the problems were still there.

00:36:03.080 I think that's a statement not of Christian moral values, though.

00:36:06.340 I mean, you certainly wouldn't be suggesting that those people were true Christians.

00:36:09.580 Well, no, but...but that's the thing.

00:36:11.480 We're never...we're never going to have this magical scenario.

00:36:13.720 Which is why I said it's utopian.

00:36:14.680 Exactly.

00:36:15.440 My point is, the challenge is, will you ever actually have a nation of 300 million people

00:36:21.100 that literally follow the teachings of Christ and go to church every weekend?

00:36:25.740 No.

00:36:26.500 No.

00:36:27.080 No.

00:36:27.360 And that's why, you know, when it comes to our laws, our Constitution, the kind of the

00:36:33.000 mission statements set out in the Declaration of Independence, even at the founding of the

00:36:36.920 country, not everyone conformed to that.

00:36:39.920 Not everyone was a virtuous person, not everyone was a true Christian, any more than...you know,

00:36:44.380 I like to use this example.

00:36:46.140 When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai, what happened?

00:36:52.100 Moses came down the mountain, and the Israelites were all dancing around a golden calf, committing

00:36:57.060 horrific acts and idolatry.

00:36:58.520 So, you know, the fact that the Israelites failed to live up to the law of God in that

00:37:05.840 moment did not make that law any less relevant or any less important that it be established

00:37:10.580 and people be expected to live up to it.

00:37:13.280 These are transcendent moral truths.

00:37:15.900 And people are shaped by law and people are bound by law.

00:37:19.740 It's a circle.

00:37:20.960 You know, people make the laws, but laws also make the people.

00:37:23.340 The principal point here with going back to Nick Fuentes, making his arguments for some

00:37:28.840 kind of economic leftist policy, is he is saying, if you are of my faction and you see

00:37:34.800 the world morally the way I do, you will be happy when we are in control of the finances

00:37:39.180 of the degenerates.

00:37:40.460 Yeah.

00:37:40.880 And that's largely how Islam treats their countries, that if you are, in many of these

00:37:45.480 Islamic nations, if you are not a Muslim, you have to pay a tax.

00:37:48.440 I forgot what it's called, but...

00:37:49.360 The jizya.

00:37:50.140 Is that what it's called?

00:37:50.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:50.960 So, you know, okay, we give you money because we don't believe what you believe, but they

00:37:54.920 can then use that money as they see fit.

00:37:56.940 And it's all a lie.

00:37:58.740 I mean, we have the...

00:38:00.400 Bringing back Rush Limbaugh again.

00:38:01.940 Remember, he always used to tell the story of the first Thanksgiving, how the pilgrims

00:38:05.840 came over, the Puritan, white, European pilgrims came over in their small community.

00:38:09.780 They tried socialism at first.

00:38:11.700 They tried...

00:38:12.420 They were going to do communism.

00:38:13.960 It's all going to go in a community pot.

00:38:15.400 And they all...

00:38:17.300 The Christian Puritans, they got lazy and resentful and bitter towards each other, and

00:38:22.420 they almost starved to death.

00:38:23.920 You know, that is socialism, even in a white, ethnically homogenous culture.

00:38:28.140 But I think the point that Nick is either intentionally or inadvertently saying is, look at all of

00:38:34.260 these people who are sick degenerates.

00:38:36.400 We are going to control a portion of their revenue towards our moralistic ends.

00:38:40.340 So imagine it more so with the Puritans coming over, bickering amongst themselves.

00:38:44.480 Sure.

00:38:44.660 But what if they all came together and said, no, no, no, no, no.

00:38:46.980 Amongst ourselves, we do as we please, but we're going to take all of the extra resources

00:38:50.180 from those around us to our ends.

00:38:52.080 Yeah.

00:38:52.780 So I don't know anything about Nick Fuentes' financial...

00:38:56.320 To be fair, neither do I.

00:38:57.520 ...ideology.

00:38:58.220 Like, I literally have absolutely no idea.

00:39:00.340 But going off of what you guys said, obviously, I don't think we should be uniting with the

00:39:04.340 left over this.

00:39:05.480 However, the question, and this is always the problem with looking at Fuentes, the same

00:39:10.300 thing's happening with Mom Donnie, right?

00:39:11.880 All these people.

00:39:12.460 How could you follow Mom Donnie?

00:39:14.200 How could you believe in the socialism?

00:39:16.380 How could you follow Nick Fuentes?

00:39:17.820 How could you believe in these things?

00:39:19.580 Well, obviously, because what we are doing right now is not working.

00:39:22.600 Now, you could say what we're doing right now is not real capitalism, and it's got all

00:39:25.780 these other issues, and yeah, absolutely, I'm here with you.

00:39:28.240 Or because people are suckers for snake oil, too.

00:39:30.600 I think there's a little bit of that.

00:39:31.660 But just to interject...

00:39:32.580 I didn't quite get to the point.

00:39:33.940 Sorry.

00:39:35.080 Don't forget what you're about to say.

00:39:36.200 I just want to add on the Mom Donnie thing.

00:39:38.180 It's exactly as I described.

00:39:40.020 Mom Donnie says, vote for me, and I will steal from them.

00:39:42.880 Yeah.

00:39:43.300 Yeah.

00:39:43.700 Yeah.

00:39:44.040 Right.

00:39:44.200 Yeah.

00:39:44.860 So the underlying question is not, are people embracing socialism?

00:39:49.620 I don't think they actually are.

00:39:51.540 Mom Donnie got elected because a bunch of third-worlders got moved into New York.

00:39:55.040 The people voting for him are either the most radical liberal white people or immigrants

00:40:01.520 who came to New York.

00:40:03.660 But I'll stress that point.

00:40:05.440 These white, liberal, college 30, former college debt 35-year-olds, they're voting for

00:40:12.580 Mom Donnie not for socialism.

00:40:14.360 They're voting because they say, I can't afford a house, and boomers have three, and Mom Donnie's

00:40:18.300 going to take their stuff and give it to me.

00:40:19.620 Right.

00:40:19.880 We don't care what his ideology is.

00:40:21.220 Just let's go to war, baby.

00:40:23.260 Right.

00:40:24.080 Islam, socialism, it's the ideology of give me the stuff.

00:40:27.820 I am here.

00:40:28.800 You have the stuff.

00:40:29.640 Give me the stuff.

00:40:31.040 Trying to give it some kind of Marxist academic, you know, like, no, they don't care.

00:40:35.320 They're not sitting there flipping through Das Kapital and being, this is the reference

00:40:40.100 point.

00:40:40.320 No, you have stuff, and the system's not working for me right now, so give me the stuff.

00:40:45.060 The same thing with Fuentes.

00:40:46.380 You have a scenario where whether you agree with a lot of what he says, which I don't,

00:40:50.780 but whether you agree with it or not, what he's addressing is a crowd of people who have

00:40:54.960 been destroyed.

00:40:56.560 They have seen the system fail for them.

00:40:59.060 And all conservatives do is turn to them and say, well, I guess you better pick yourself

00:41:04.500 up by your bootstraps.

00:41:05.640 Figure it out.

00:41:06.360 Buck up, buttercup.

00:41:07.380 And don't get me wrong, tough love is important, especially young men.

00:41:10.780 You do have to work hard.

00:41:12.220 You can't sit there and expect everyone to give it to you.

00:41:13.900 You do have to have the work ethic.

00:41:15.520 But when they see a situation where corporations are buying up homes, make it impossible for

00:41:21.600 people to get into, where illegals are coming in, taking the job, H-1Bs are replacing American

00:41:26.540 workers, where especially white American men find it impossible to get into colleges because

00:41:31.240 they are specifically illegally discriminated against, when they see all of these things

00:41:36.520 happen and conservative ink has no answers for them.

00:41:39.520 Zero.

00:41:40.280 Do you really think that, though?

00:41:41.400 Yes, absolutely.

00:41:42.780 If they had answers, we wouldn't be here, Joel.

00:41:45.440 These people have been in charge of the movement for 30, 40 years.

00:41:49.640 All of these problems are still...

00:41:50.880 We just got to the point where we're allowed to acknowledge anti-white discrimination like

00:41:55.100 three years ago, where a conservative would come out and say that and say, actually, we

00:41:59.640 need to take action against that.

00:42:00.960 That just happened.

00:42:02.080 So if we had a successful conservative movement for 30 years, why did we just start talking

00:42:07.100 about this issue?

00:42:07.840 And if you pretend like we had an effective conservative movement, then you're just fooling

00:42:12.640 yourself.

00:42:13.100 You're doing yourself...

00:42:13.920 I get it.

00:42:14.480 You don't want people following Nick Fuentes.

00:42:15.840 Me neither.

00:42:16.200 But you have to be honest about where the conservative movement is and what it's done.

00:42:20.820 Because if you are not, these people will leave you for him every single time.

00:42:25.700 I also want to stress a very, very important issue as it comes to politics that people don't

00:42:31.940 seem to keep in the front of their minds.

00:42:35.120 Nick Fuentes' audience is not going to change.

00:42:38.360 These are young people.

00:42:39.840 As they were growing up, they saw something.

00:42:42.220 Nick made several statements about what he was seeing and what his proposals were.

00:42:46.200 And young people followed him as he was in their peer group.

00:42:50.000 When we look at the shifting demographics, people often assume that there's some 35-year-old

00:42:55.520 guy who is a laissez-faire capitalist who one day woke up, read Das Kapital, and said,

00:43:01.000 I gotta be a socialist.

00:43:03.140 When in reality, that 35-year-old guy 10 years later is still the exact same guy he always

00:43:08.160 was.

00:43:08.460 His views have shifted very little.

00:43:10.000 And the 10-year-old is now 20.

00:43:12.240 And he was raised from the age of 10 to be a socialist at the age of 20.

00:43:15.120 This is why Charlie Kirk fought so hard for high schools and colleges with Turning Point

00:43:19.180 because he knew you've got to introduce some of these ideas at a young age.

00:43:23.020 Now, how old is Nick?

00:43:24.500 He's late 20s?

00:43:25.700 I don't know.

00:43:26.420 I don't know how old he is.

00:43:27.400 But 27?

00:43:29.640 There's going to be—Gen Z is about to turn 30.

00:43:32.340 This debate is not going to change their minds because they have 20 years of education, knowledge,

00:43:40.080 and interpretation of history and political facts.

00:43:42.920 The question now is, how are you going to convince Gen Alpha, which is only 42 million,

00:43:48.820 to believe in what you are saying?

00:43:52.280 Specifically what?

00:43:53.280 What are you—

00:43:54.160 My point is, the change that is coming with Nick and whoever else is—it's going to happen

00:44:01.620 no matter what.

00:44:02.220 You can't change it.

00:44:02.800 It can't be stopped.

00:44:03.820 This change was set in motion 10 years ago.

00:44:06.660 And it's really fascinating to think, actually, 10 years ago, Donald Trump walking down the

00:44:10.160 escalator, right?

00:44:11.280 Not that—how old are you, Joel?

00:44:13.920 39.

00:44:14.520 39?

00:44:15.740 41.

00:44:16.380 41.

00:44:16.660 I'm also 39.

00:44:18.280 We're in our late 20s watching all that go down.

00:44:21.020 And now it's kind of crazy to see that people in our age group, as naturally as it is, start

00:44:27.280 taking over positions of power, start coming into corporate positions.

00:44:31.900 And we see this even with wokeness.

00:44:35.140 Boomers have a very similar ideology to each other.

00:44:38.500 This was true in the 90s.

00:44:39.820 The arguments between them was very light.

00:44:42.100 And that's why a lot of boomers left the Republican Party and became Democrats.

00:44:46.960 And we now see these old neocons, crotchety neocons, are basically Democrats at this point

00:44:50.820 because they always had this very similar view.

00:44:53.620 And it's largely a pro-Israel view.

00:44:55.500 As you get younger, it starts splitting more and more and more.

00:44:58.540 The important distinction right now is we can certainly talk about the politics we want

00:45:03.300 to be in place, but the conversation we're having is how are we going to create a unified

00:45:08.020 message for Generation Alpha, who are about 15 years old?

00:45:11.320 So in three years, when Gen Alpha starts voting, which is pretty crazy, they're going to largely

00:45:17.880 agree with what we want.

00:45:19.560 Okay, so I think I laid it out at the very beginning, my little diatribe here.

00:45:25.040 I laid out kind of all the problems that I don't think I left much out.

00:45:29.020 I mean, I address pretty much everything that Nick Fuentes has been addressing, right?

00:45:33.700 Cost of living, the disenfranchisement of young white men, all this stuff.

00:45:38.440 You know, Charlie was a great example for us.

00:45:45.900 And, you know, he was always going back to and pointing people to Christ and the gospel.

00:45:52.880 That's our way out of this.

00:45:54.000 And I think we saw like a beautiful glimpse of it at his funeral service.

00:45:59.920 We saw forgiveness, we saw worship, we saw devotion, we saw hope, we saw boldness in speaking the truth

00:46:09.500 from a national stage.

00:46:11.720 The answer to all of this is not in, you know, the right tactics, you know, seizing the right halls of power.

00:46:23.960 You know, it has to be a ground-up spiritual revival.

00:46:30.940 And that's something that you can't manufacture, which is what makes this answer so hard.

00:46:35.860 Well, yes and no, right?

00:46:37.620 Like, so at some level, the football team wins because it is, you know, a bunch of guys supporting each other,

00:46:43.540 sharing the same goal, working together, right?

00:46:45.840 Like, they have to have that.

00:46:47.520 They have to have that baseline understanding those shared values.

00:46:51.460 But at some point, there is a mechanical way in which the football team wins.

00:46:55.400 There is actually a specific set of steps that are tactically correct, strategically correct, need to be applied.

00:47:01.520 You need to understand the mechanisms of how the game works and where your advantages are.

00:47:05.600 You need both.

00:47:06.820 Yes.

00:47:07.120 But you can't sit there and say, it's just this.

00:47:10.020 Now, don't get me wrong, Christ above all, right?

00:47:12.980 Like, ultimately, Christ is the answer to everything.

00:47:15.440 We're going to agree on that all day long, right?

00:47:17.760 But at some point, Christ has us doing things, right?

00:47:21.220 Like, Christ may bless your mission, but then you've got to go build the thing and do the thing, right?

00:47:26.940 Yes, and that was the—there's a great debate between David French and Eric Metaxas exactly on this issue,

00:47:34.460 because David French, one of the reasons he lost his way is because he kind of had his Christian faith

00:47:39.760 that he wanted to keep in this, like, pristine little case in this ivory tower,

00:47:44.420 untarnished and untainted by the filth of the world.

00:47:47.480 And Eric Metaxas is like, no, we are Christians, we need to live in the world,

00:47:51.880 and we need to apply our Christianity in politics every way we can.

00:47:57.200 That was the big divide over Donald Trump.

00:47:59.020 Could Christians support Donald Trump?

00:48:01.240 You know, and I voted for Donald Trump all three times, and it was a compromise as a Christian.

00:48:05.980 You know, I was making a calculation that I was voting for a guy that maybe had some questionable morals,

00:48:10.780 and I didn't agree with on everything, but it was my responsibility as a Christian to vote for him

00:48:16.500 because of the alternatives and because of what he represented.

00:48:20.480 And, you know, we're still having this debate on the right,

00:48:27.100 but I think what concerns me a little bit about what I see in your approach, Arne, is it—

00:48:34.140 you know, and maybe this is just perception for me, because we're all online,

00:48:37.600 and we all just see what we put online.

00:48:40.560 You know, your emphasis on guys like Schmidt, Machiavelli, Land, Yarvin, these guys,

00:48:47.480 the overemphasis on kind of like the nihilistic tactics, the real politique,

00:48:55.200 at the expense of spiritual reality, it's—I get it, I see the use for it,

00:49:02.300 but I think it's just—it's imbalanced.

00:49:05.260 You know, I understand Scripture's not a political textbook,

00:49:09.680 but I think that as Christians, Scripture should be at the center of everything.

00:49:14.980 We should be citing it, we should be looking to it all the time,

00:49:17.420 and I think it has some incredible wisdom for us in how we conduct politics.

00:49:21.220 But what—I'm going to try and understand what you're saying.

00:49:24.000 Is the argument that Oren's view is more based on the application of power

00:49:29.960 from groups willing to enforce their worldview versus the truth that should just be?

00:49:34.060 Yeah, well, so it's almost like Lord of the Rings versus Game of Thrones.

00:49:39.220 You know, Lord of the Rings, there are deities, there's transcendent moral truth,

00:49:44.100 there's kind of a cosmic reality above it all.

00:49:47.160 Game of Thrones is just germs and a petri dish fighting it out.

00:49:51.540 You know, it's just animals.

00:49:52.600 Well, I view them both very, very similar.

00:49:55.280 I mean, obviously, they're fighting it out, but I don't—

00:49:58.620 But the question is, what reality do we actually live in?

00:50:01.220 So realpolitik is not actual reality, because in reality, God exists and objective moral truth exists,

00:50:10.680 and we have to account for that and acknowledge that everywhere we go and in everything we do,

00:50:15.400 especially as Christians, and the prime example of this, the big failure that I've seen on the right

00:50:21.000 in tactics and morals has been this no enemies to the right thing that has become such a big part

00:50:27.440 of the conversation over the last couple years.

00:50:29.540 You know, Charles Haywood kind of coined this term, no enemies to the right,

00:50:33.320 and the idea being, you know, for the sake of tactics, for the sake of uniting against the left,

00:50:40.500 we need to hold our peace when it comes to calling out evil or wickedness or bad ideas on the right.

00:50:46.940 And, you know, and after we defeat the left, we can have these conversations.

00:50:49.620 It's all good.

00:50:50.440 But we need to keep our mouths shut, no enemies to the right.

00:50:53.860 And what it did, and what I saw over the next couple years, is it, you know, if you follow that all the way down,

00:51:00.300 for one, it's very nihilist, it can almost turn you into this kind of twisted moral monster,

00:51:06.060 and it's the exact same thing that Marxists do.

00:51:08.100 So Marxists have, they look at everything in terms of oppressed versus oppressor.

00:51:12.600 And so what they end up doing, and you see it all the time, is if wickedness is done by someone who is oppressed,

00:51:19.040 they will defend that wickedness, because it's coming from someone who's oppressed.

00:51:22.660 And the same thing on the right, if we have no enemies to the right,

00:51:25.400 what you end up seeing all the time is someone defending wickedness,

00:51:28.700 because it's coming from someone who is on the right, who's supposed to be your friend.

00:51:32.620 Will you condemn James Lindsay?

00:51:34.660 For what?

00:51:35.620 For no enemies to the right.

00:51:38.880 Well, he's certainly at odds with your moral worldview, destructive to its ends,

00:51:42.880 and aligning with him has caused you problems.

00:51:45.000 Will you speak out?

00:51:46.040 Will you say, this guy is bad, we should not be working with him?

00:51:49.280 We should be, first of all, he's not a Christian.

00:51:51.340 He's a polyamorous liberal who has been putting out false arguments to make your argument fall apart.

00:51:59.260 And I think, not you personally, but I've seen this faction of individuals intentionally align with them

00:52:06.020 because it grants them power and they want to use it.

00:52:08.120 Well, I'll tell you what I think.

00:52:10.940 Well, James Lindsay has shot himself in the foot a little bit with this kind of over-application of the woke right term.

00:52:18.000 Yeah, I think once he started calling orthodox pro-Israel Jews woke right, it might have jumped the chart.

00:52:24.580 Hold on, I guess I want to finish my train of thought with him, because at a core level, I do appreciate what he's doing,

00:52:34.020 even though he shoots himself in the foot and he's really good at making enemies.

00:52:38.900 He is a freedom-first guy.

00:52:42.300 He cares about preserving freedom, and so do I.

00:52:44.600 When it comes to his faith, he's not an atheist anymore.

00:52:48.340 He's at least agnostic, and I'm praying for his conversion.

00:52:52.620 He's been reading the Bible a lot, and he's been—I won't say any more about him, because I don't know.

00:52:58.580 But this is one thing I'll say.

00:53:01.140 The last time I was with James Lindsay, it was at a libertarian convention, you know, a bunch of godless libertarians.

00:53:07.780 No offense.

00:53:09.060 Not a libertarian.

00:53:09.500 And at one point, he had done his presentation.

00:53:18.000 Someone asked a question during the Q&A, like, how do we save this country?

00:53:22.800 And he said, the only way I see for us to save this country is for you to get back into your Bible, find a church, and go to church, and pray earnestly for our country.

00:53:40.840 And he wasn't pandering.

00:53:41.860 This wasn't a crowd of evangelicals, so he wasn't pandering.

00:53:44.020 He was talking to a bunch of, you know, godless libertarians.

00:53:46.520 And so my point is, I don't agree with Lindsay on everything, obviously, but I will unite with a guy who tells people that our hope is scripture, church, and prayer.

00:54:00.380 So does Nick.

00:54:00.780 Over a professed Christian who says, you know, Hitler was cool, you know, 15-year-olds, or, you know, all the stuff, all the nasty stuff that Nick Fuentes has said.

00:54:16.500 Or a professed Christian who says that—

00:54:19.060 I reject this.

00:54:20.900 James Lindsay is the other side of the coin for Nick Fuentes in this argument.

00:54:24.640 You are overlooking the things he does that is destructive to you because he said things that benefits you.

00:54:29.660 And there are many people who would say similarly of Nick, perhaps Tucker Carlson.

00:54:32.360 I don't want to put words in his mouth.

00:54:33.880 But while certainly Nick has said a bunch of abhorrent things, like you mentioned, saying, you know, Hitler, Stalin, all these guys, there are a lot of people saying, no, enemies to the right.

00:54:41.920 Well, at least he is a Christian, and at least he is espousing that message.

00:54:45.080 He's not a Christian.

00:54:45.660 And young men are following it.

00:54:46.700 Neither is James Lindsay, but you would be willing to unite with a guy.

00:54:49.060 It's like there's some kind of friend-enemy distinction, government, political coalitions.

00:54:54.060 Look, so that's the other—

00:54:55.440 I want to make this one important point on the issue I take with—I see these—I don't know how you want to describe the faction of people that are more in your camp.

00:55:06.480 I believe James Lindsay opposes your worldview and is trying to destroy it.

00:55:10.020 I believe that his—

00:55:11.060 That worldview being what?

00:55:13.180 Christianity.

00:55:13.580 He's trying to destroy Christianity.

00:55:14.900 And conservatism.

00:55:15.840 I disagree.

00:55:16.820 This is a man whose entire body of work is infiltrating groups and presenting arguments that make them look retarded.

00:55:23.160 And he is doing that to you right now, and you're going along with it because there is some benefit you received.

00:55:28.460 So ignoring all of the destructive things he's done, he's cost you allies, he's created enemies, and he's dismantled your own arguments, which is literally what he's done on the left, now to you.

00:55:37.900 And you're like, well, but you know, he said some things that are beneficial to me, so I'll keep it.

00:55:41.800 What—you know, and maybe I'm just naive, but I see someone who is standing up for what he believes in at great cost to himself.

00:55:54.920 He's kind of lost everything.

00:55:56.240 You're saying no enemies to the right in the exact same way.

00:55:58.840 How do you mean?

00:55:59.980 This argument, no enemies to the right, means people who are aligned with us enough, we should not attack.

00:56:04.840 And you're saying this of James Lindsay, who is the antithesis and has exhibited—I'm going to say this bare point again because it's fascinating to me.

00:56:13.960 When I was talking with Scott Horton about this, and I said, oh, James Lindsay hates Israel.

00:56:18.240 And he was like, what are you talking about?

00:56:20.260 He defends it all the time.

00:56:21.940 And I'm like, you just tweeted that he was your secret agent helping you dismantle this argument pro-Israel.

00:56:26.860 James Lindsay goes to the left, makes and presents false arguments that they utilize and look like idiots.

00:56:33.180 He is quite literally as a liberal, polyamorous guy doing the same thing to you, but you're falling for it the same way leftist academics did.

00:56:41.020 He's never been a conservative.

00:56:42.300 He's never liked the Marxists.

00:56:43.740 He wants traditional social liberalism, and he's attacking the enemies of it to the point where he said, I should be the leader, and our true enemy is national conservatism.

00:56:52.460 And he is called—my favorite example, Mary Morgan woke right.

00:56:57.360 Mary is a pop culture commentator that works here at Timcast.

00:57:00.440 She does a show about video games, movies, and actresses, and even she's woke right.

00:57:04.600 He has made you look like fools over and over again.

00:57:07.400 Now, I know he's not saying that he likes Hitler or anything like that, but the absurdity of his comments is destructive to your political ends, and you can't see it.

00:57:14.680 When I see someone say, no enemies to the right, and they're willing to align with Fuentes, I see in a different way, very similarly to your willingness to align with James Lindsay.

00:57:23.000 Yeah, I've heard that before.

00:57:25.720 I think—I'm not a subscriber of no enemies to the right.

00:57:32.040 I think that I will unite with people—you know, Dave Rubin is another example that always gets brought up.

00:57:39.160 You know, he's gay, and he bought surrogate babies.

00:57:41.420 You know, you're a Christian.

00:57:42.200 How could you unite with this guy?

00:57:43.280 I don't know Dave Rubin.

00:57:44.420 I've never done anything with him.

00:57:45.420 You know, and you've talked about this too, Aaron.

00:57:48.860 We choose our friends, allies, and co-belligerents differently.

00:57:53.020 You know, sometimes we have co-belligerents that we don't agree with on everything, but, you know, politically, they are kind of on our side for what we're pushing for politically.

00:58:01.740 You know, James Lindsay, I see as someone who is calling out an anti-liberty—a growing anti-liberty movement on the right.

00:58:16.340 He called it out when it was on the left.

00:58:17.860 But he's not.

00:58:19.000 And again, this is the point.

00:58:20.400 I'm sorry to interrupt, but he called me a Marxist plant.

00:58:24.640 He tweeted at Carl Benjamin, it's not my job to educate you.

00:58:29.000 His modus operandi has always been infiltrate and destroy.

00:58:31.720 At some point, you have to care.

00:58:33.380 Like, you can't just pretend like, oh, it's fine.

00:58:35.260 And really, honestly, this is the most boring topic ever.

00:58:38.000 Like, James isn't here to defend himself, and I don't want to spend a ton of time going on about it.

00:58:43.100 I agree with what you're saying, but, like, it's just the most—

00:58:46.140 My final point on this is largely just—again, I agree.

00:58:49.040 We don't need to talk about some guy.

00:58:50.420 But if there's a subject matter in this debate of Nick Fuentes as a particular individual, there are other elements of, I am willing to defend abhorrent people who are destructive if it suits my ends.

00:59:01.040 Yeah, you can't pretend that it's all on one side.

00:59:03.580 And again, Nick Fuentes has lied about me maliciously.

00:59:06.660 I have no love for Nick Fuentes at all.

00:59:09.920 But you just can't pretend like the bad behavior is one direction.

00:59:14.460 But again, this really gets back to the original—

00:59:17.600 So do you guys actually put James Lindsay on the same plane as Nick Fuentes in terms of, like, how loathsome and wicked they are?

00:59:24.300 I don't know.

00:59:25.140 Of course, it will depend on the issue.

00:59:26.920 So, for instance, how bad is buying children from their mother?

00:59:31.280 James Lindsay didn't do that.

00:59:32.160 I know, but since you brought up Dave Rubin, like, where does that—on the scale of moral, is that above a Nick Fuentes being thrown out to your auntie?

00:59:39.020 It's wicked, and it should be outlawed.

00:59:40.380 No, but it has to be placed.

00:59:42.640 So, like, if we're placing it, is it—Nick Fuentes is saying bad things.

00:59:46.700 Right.

00:59:47.540 Dave Rubin is separating children from their mother.

00:59:49.940 Which one is worse?

00:59:50.900 Or money.

00:59:51.280 So, again, I draw a line between how someone conducts themselves in their life, in their personal life, versus what they're saying in the messages that they're promoting.

01:00:02.060 He promoted it.

01:00:02.840 I don't promote—I don't defend Trump in his adultery and the things that he's done in his private life.

01:00:09.400 I support him because of the policies that he represents.

01:00:11.440 So, let's—approaching it that way, Dave Rubin has advocated for it.

01:00:16.080 He has published his intention to do so.

01:00:18.080 He has published photos of him doing so.

01:00:20.200 So, he is speaking to his millions of followers, saying, I have payday woman to birth children that I now have control over.

01:00:26.440 Yeah.

01:00:26.820 And I condemn that.

01:00:28.060 Is that worse than Nick?

01:00:29.520 Yeah.

01:00:30.040 Can you work with him?

01:00:31.280 What's that?

01:00:31.780 Could you work with him?

01:00:32.660 Could you be allies with him?

01:00:33.700 Knowing that he's done that, and pretending that that's bad—

01:00:38.940 Again, I'm choosing—

01:00:40.400 Like, pretending?

01:00:41.680 Is he—

01:00:42.280 No, I mean, I think it's bad, but I'm saying, pretending that we care, if we're—well, we care when people do bad things, and we can't ally.

01:00:47.780 If I ever see him in public saying, you know, advocating for gay adoption surrogacy, I will go after him every bit as hard and obnoxiously as I go after everybody else.

01:01:04.420 So, I haven't seen him publicly promoting that, except for the one—

01:01:07.940 Let's try this.

01:01:09.640 What actions has Nick taken that you would put in a similar camp of the purchase of children?

01:01:15.460 I don't know.

01:01:18.040 I don't know his—what he does in his personal life.

01:01:20.020 Has Dave Rubin advocated for things?

01:01:22.900 I mean, so surrogacy is something he has advocated, published, and shown that he has done, and so that is part of his advocacy, as well as gay marriage.

01:01:29.940 I haven't seen him advocate for it.

01:01:31.380 I mean—

01:01:31.740 Dave posted photos and talked to—

01:01:33.420 He did. He posted that one photo announcing it, but I haven't seen him advocating for it as a matter of public policy.

01:01:37.640 I mean, how else do we interpret that other than advocation?

01:01:39.520 And also, but importantly, gay marriage.

01:01:41.520 What kind of—

01:01:41.940 And I want to stress, I'm not trying to roast Dave or anything like that.

01:01:45.240 I like Dave. Dave's a good dude.

01:01:47.240 But I understand there are moral questions over his life.

01:01:49.020 So again, are you putting Dave Rubin, James Lindsay—

01:01:52.140 I'm trying to figure out where your line is for alliance.

01:01:56.600 All right.

01:01:57.100 When it comes to alliance politically, all right, I am willing to ally with people who care about freedom, who will fight for the freedom of me and my wife and my kids and for future generations.

01:02:12.380 Do you think—

01:02:12.600 I don't want economic slavery.

01:02:16.400 I don't want social slavery.

01:02:18.720 I want America to remain free, and I want me and my kids to remain free.

01:02:22.440 Do you think Nick Fuentes is evil?

01:02:26.760 We're all evil.

01:02:27.680 I mean, we're all sinners.

01:02:28.900 We all feel short of the glory of God.

01:02:30.300 When you look at someone like Jasmine Crockett—

01:02:31.580 I think that what he is advocating for is particularly and uniquely evil.

01:02:37.340 And yes, I think he's part of a very evil movement.

01:02:40.860 Can you quantify specifically?

01:02:43.040 I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

01:02:44.140 I'm just—to understand your view of what he's advocating for.

01:02:46.480 Yeah.

01:02:47.480 I think that he is—I think he's a nihilist.

01:02:53.240 I think he is advocating for racial hatred.

01:02:59.160 I think he is dividing the conservative movement, destroying it from within.

01:03:06.720 I think that what he represents is a—really, I mean, I know he claims Christianity.

01:03:13.040 He's not a Christian.

01:03:13.700 He's a pagan.

01:03:14.120 So he represents a post-Christian new pagan rite that, like Romans 1, worships the creature

01:03:23.320 over the Creator, that worships the forces of nature.

01:03:27.340 So why do you believe that?

01:03:29.460 Like, what has he said?

01:03:30.820 Because that's the antithesis of what he said.

01:03:33.320 And you don't have to take his word for it, but there's a few things that I think are interesting.

01:03:38.280 One, again, like—

01:03:39.360 I look at his fruit.

01:03:40.200 I don't care what he says.

01:03:41.160 I don't care what anybody says.

01:03:42.200 I look at—

01:03:43.200 One of his most viral videos.

01:03:45.040 Jesus in Matthew 11 said—

01:03:45.500 Didn't we literally just say the opposite of that?

01:03:47.380 Jesus in Matthew—

01:03:48.020 She said the opposite.

01:03:49.040 You said that it matters.

01:03:50.580 You don't care what they do in their personal life.

01:03:51.860 You care what they espouse.

01:03:53.040 No, I'm talking about in terms of whether or not I think he's a Christian.

01:03:56.260 That's what we're talking about.

01:03:57.380 Okay.

01:03:57.940 Yeah.

01:03:58.300 Not whether I'll ally with him.

01:04:00.080 Okay.

01:04:00.280 He said racism is low IQ.

01:04:03.680 He has a very viral video that got like 50 million views where he was—

01:04:08.460 He flips his opinions all the time.

01:04:10.000 He's a total nihilist.

01:04:10.840 He's a total nihilist.

01:04:12.200 That's the real problem, though.

01:04:13.580 Why are you taking him seriously if you think that's okay?

01:04:16.160 I'm with you.

01:04:16.820 Like, I think ultimately—

01:04:17.880 Because he has an ideology.

01:04:19.600 Right, because he represents a growing movement on the right that is increasingly despairing, sees no hope for renewal or return, and just wants to burn it all down.

01:04:30.980 Just like the left.

01:04:32.140 They do better.

01:04:33.180 This is the point I'm trying to get to.

01:04:34.840 One thing that James Lindsay always says that I think is a great saying—I don't know where it comes from.

01:04:40.300 Maybe you guys can tell me because you're more well-read.

01:04:42.760 The issue is never the issue.

01:04:44.500 The issue is always the revolution.

01:04:46.040 And the one thing that the far left and the far right is united around right now is the destruction of the American republic.

01:04:52.780 They want to destroy it.

01:04:54.160 We already talked about how the republic—

01:04:56.140 Hold on.

01:04:56.640 I'm sorry to interrupt you.

01:04:57.620 No, it's okay.

01:04:58.460 For 70 years, the United States has been operating under what's called the liberal economic order that you seek to topple.

01:05:04.300 You are advocating for a revolution from that system.

01:05:07.940 Are you talking about like the post-war order?

01:05:09.840 The CFR calls it the liberal economic order, the establishment of the World Bank, the IMF, international—unless you're actually in favor of us sending $250 billion to Ukraine and invading the Middle East and nation-building in Korea and Afghanistan.

01:05:23.120 And if that's true, then I stand corrected.

01:05:26.260 Sorry.

01:05:26.880 What are you asking?

01:05:27.680 The general movement behind Trump opposes the liberal economic order, which would be open borders, free trade.

01:05:33.880 Correct.

01:05:34.500 So you are seeking a revolution from a 70-year-old system that's been established internationally.

01:05:40.580 Yes.

01:05:40.820 So when you look at what Nick is advocating for and he says these structures of power must be changed or the left saying these structures, you too are calling for a revolution against the current world order.

01:05:51.440 Okay.

01:05:51.680 All right.

01:05:51.960 So, yes, there is—again, there's a balance there.

01:05:58.840 I think Chesterton—there's something that Chesterton says that I really like.

01:06:01.900 The reason conservatism always fails is because, you know, if you were to stand in front of a white fence post in a field and you're standing in front of it to guard it, entropy is happening behind you.

01:06:14.340 And eventually, over the years, that fence post is going to turn black, right?

01:06:17.760 And so in order to maintain a white fence post, you always have to be repainting it.

01:06:21.860 In other words, you always have to be having a new revolution, right?

01:06:25.080 We have this in Christianity.

01:06:26.280 We had the Protestant Reformation.

01:06:28.020 There are always these soft revolutions that happen where things need to be undone, things need to be torn down, things need to be renewed.

01:06:36.740 The question is, are you just wanting to destroy everything for the sake of your nihilistic thirst for destruction, or are you trying to renew?

01:06:47.900 Let's advance beyond, you know, talking about Nick for a half an hour, right?

01:06:51.040 But there's also Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson that have now found themselves entrenched in this.

01:06:54.900 Yeah.

01:06:56.100 I'm going to go right for the Babylon Bee.

01:06:58.020 When you guys had a satirical article that said, out of abundance of caution, Megyn Kelly throws away her beeper.

01:07:04.480 Yeah.

01:07:05.200 It was deleted.

01:07:06.640 I made the point that I thought it was deleted because it was more offensive to Israel than Megyn Kelly, as it stated in the article.

01:07:13.200 A lot of people didn't get that, yeah.

01:07:14.880 They got mad at me.

01:07:17.060 You know, Anna Kasparian said I was simping for Israel.

01:07:18.980 And it's just like, wait, wait, hold on.

01:07:20.440 And then I had a lot of pro-Israel people say, no, the joke is that she's paranoid.

01:07:24.860 Well, I'll point out the final line in the article was that her garbage can exploded.

01:07:28.500 The joke was quite literally that Israel tried to murder Megyn Kelly, whether that's the intention or otherwise.

01:07:32.900 Yeah.

01:07:33.000 But you guys deleted it.

01:07:36.160 What is the view of Megyn Kelly in this regard and Tucker Carlson?

01:07:39.540 Are they also nihilistic like Nick?

01:07:41.560 Are they just grifting?

01:07:42.460 I don't know.

01:07:45.780 I can't claim to see in either of their hearts or what they're doing.

01:07:49.940 You know, I tend to be very earnest and sincere with what I'm doing.

01:07:55.120 And so I just can't relate to anybody who changes their positions for money or based on who's paying them.

01:08:03.240 I'm not saying that's them.

01:08:05.180 I tend to kind of give them the benefit of the doubt.

01:08:07.800 People change their opinions.

01:08:09.840 I don't know.

01:08:11.060 You know, when it comes to Megyn Kelly and the joke, I wouldn't read too much into it.

01:08:15.260 I was off that week.

01:08:17.000 You know, I was at a funeral, so I didn't even write the joke.

01:08:19.780 I didn't even know it had gone up.

01:08:22.380 And, you know, we're just trying to find amusing things and joke about them.

01:08:27.020 It was a joke about, you know, all our jokes have multiple layers.

01:08:30.240 It was a joke about Megyn Kelly being a little paranoid, talking about how if Mark Levin doesn't shut up, someone's going to kill her.

01:08:35.680 And Israel, you know, we joke about Israel.

01:08:39.600 People say, why don't you tell jokes about the dude?

01:08:41.860 We joke about Israel sometimes.

01:08:45.160 And, you know, I'm not going to say whether or not it should have been deleted or not.

01:08:50.480 It shouldn't have been deleted.

01:08:51.020 You know, it's a shame that it was, you know, but I think the thing that I go after you about sometimes, Arne, is I feel like—and this just might be a function of how online conversation can be.

01:09:09.020 Sometimes we get a little bit hysterical, but the way you replied to Megyn in that joke, saying, it's not that simple.

01:09:16.760 They want you dead.

01:09:18.220 I thought that was kind of a wicked thing.

01:09:21.380 You know, we have no ill will towards Megyn.

01:09:25.400 We obviously don't want her dead.

01:09:27.860 You know, that's the other thing that has come in.

01:09:30.200 You know, we're talking about political tactics here.

01:09:31.920 When people went after Tucker for interviewing Fuentes, and they called Fuentes a Nazi, a lot of people on the right—I don't know if this is coordinated or people just started copying each other—but the line ended up being, you know, Charlie was killed because they called him a fascist.

01:09:49.900 If you call anyone a fascist, including Nick Fuentes, you're trying to get somebody killed.

01:09:55.520 You're calling for their assassination.

01:09:57.880 Yeah.

01:09:58.260 I just thought that was so wicked.

01:09:59.480 I think Ted Cruz is right about that.

01:10:00.760 I thought that was so wicked and cynical.

01:10:03.100 No, Ted Cruz was talking about people who lie about someone being a fascist or lie about someone being a Nazi.

01:10:10.080 That's what the left does.

01:10:12.080 You know, he wasn't talking about calling an actual Nazi a Nazi.

01:10:15.660 Do you think that the left doesn't think that you're a Nazi?

01:10:20.000 Of course they do.

01:10:20.900 I have a question.

01:10:21.780 No, no, no.

01:10:22.240 This is important here.

01:10:23.360 This is super important.

01:10:24.400 So you just said that actually it's about the lying.

01:10:28.440 That's the problem, except they're not lying.

01:10:30.060 They're saying the truth, that you're a Nazi.

01:10:32.320 They really believe that.

01:10:33.340 That's not a lie.

01:10:34.860 And so when you run around calling other people Nazis and you have zero self-reflection on the cost that that has, that's a huge problem.

01:10:42.660 I 100% believe that Charlie Kirk was killed because people believed he was a fascist.

01:10:47.720 And I know that because it was written on the magazine of the guy who was shooting at him.

01:10:51.660 He was killed because he preached a biblical definition of male and female, and it was a trans furry that killed him.

01:10:57.480 Again, you can pretend.

01:10:59.380 The boyfriend of a trans furry, allegedly.

01:11:01.220 You can pretend that he did not write his motivation directly on the gun, but he did.

01:11:05.220 So we don't have to guess.

01:11:06.140 Okay, so then what?

01:11:07.860 Are we all tongue-tied now?

01:11:09.180 We are never allowed to call an actual Nazi a Nazi?

01:11:12.740 I have an important question.

01:11:14.520 I think that in a moment where you literally know that this kind of language is spurring political violence, you might, for a moment, think about the way in which you address it.

01:11:23.060 I have some questions.

01:11:25.000 Do you believe that if someone is accused of being a Nazi, that these leftists, there will be a murderous intent towards that person?

01:11:33.040 Not necessarily.

01:11:34.320 But possibly, yes.

01:11:36.200 Again, I'm a little nuanced on this because I don't think the left will come after people like Nick Fuentes, honestly.

01:11:47.960 Darkness knows darkness.

01:11:49.980 But hold on.

01:11:50.720 That's already happened.

01:11:51.440 They've gone to his house.

01:11:52.220 They banged him at his door.

01:11:53.020 He got arrested.

01:11:53.960 That happened to Seth Dillon, too.

01:11:55.680 Indeed.

01:11:56.280 You just said they wouldn't do it.

01:11:57.740 Wait, wait, wait.

01:11:58.340 This is an important distinction.

01:11:59.680 I believe it is a fact that the left believes people on the right are Nazis.

01:12:07.240 They say kill Nazis.

01:12:08.460 Yeah.

01:12:08.760 They make – they said punch a Nazi.

01:12:11.380 It went viral.

01:12:12.080 Right.

01:12:12.280 They showed the Covington kid being – depicted him being thrown into a wood chipper.

01:12:15.920 Yeah.

01:12:16.180 So we know that there is a certain degree of murderous intent that exists on the left.

01:12:19.680 And the calling of someone a Nazi falsely is intended to mark them as an enemy of the faction.

01:12:24.680 Correct.

01:12:25.320 The next – so we know it is a possibility that if someone is branded a Nazi, they – the left may seek to harm them.

01:12:30.320 Yes.

01:12:30.640 And have in several instances.

01:12:31.660 If there is a person who is a literal Nazi dressing up like Hitler and preaching on a street corner, should that person be killed?

01:12:40.140 No.

01:12:40.720 So the issue I see here is it doesn't matter if Nick is or isn't a Nazi or Ted Cruz was saying falsely or literally.

01:12:47.440 The point is if we're in a country, in a culture where a large faction of people will murder you for being accused of being a Nazi, then whether you are or aren't isn't what matters.

01:12:55.680 What matters is you've been targeted for death.

01:12:58.400 I don't think our ability to speak truth about a situation should depend on the current political climate or the current – or the possible ramifications of you speaking truth.

01:13:15.540 You should just speak truth.

01:13:16.580 Agreed.

01:13:17.400 And so the point is – the point Arne was making is when people come out and say calling someone a fascist is basically saying kill him or it's marking for the left.

01:13:26.560 I don't agree with that.

01:13:27.720 Well, you really –

01:13:28.880 It's an intentional marking of anyone for death.

01:13:30.560 It obviously is.

01:13:31.620 And you can tell because as soon as Charlie Kirk was dead, every one of the people celebrating his death, guess what they kept saying?

01:13:37.500 Shot the fascists, killed the fascists, the fascists deserve to die.

01:13:40.540 Even the people –

01:13:40.920 They were singing Bella Ciao.

01:13:41.700 Of course.

01:13:42.500 And even after, even the moderate leftists who waited a few days eventually came back and started doing the backfill and saying, well, I would have never called for Charlie Kirk's death, but obviously he had it coming because he was a fascist, right?

01:13:56.140 So you can't have the left layout piece by piece exactly how they are justifying the murder of people and then being like, well, that's not how that works.

01:14:06.260 Look, you're doing the whole stochastic terrorism thing.

01:14:09.160 That was the line that the left brought about, the whole words are violence.

01:14:12.440 I'm not going to make a political calculation of what might happen and who might do what if I speak the truth.

01:14:18.740 I'm just going to speak the truth.

01:14:20.220 This is a great point, and my line was met when after the murder of Charlie Kirk, the death threats reached such a level and such a clever way of bypassing law.

01:14:29.440 I said, enough.

01:14:30.540 I'm not playing this game anymore.

01:14:32.360 Now, by all means, people have pointed out the left made the argument of stochastic terrorism.

01:14:36.280 Effectively, oh, won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?

01:14:38.860 And then someone goes and does it.

01:14:41.140 I refer to this phenomenon that we're seeing now, the Tweedledee, Tweedledum death threat.

01:14:44.420 You cannot express an intent that I will go do this thing to this person.

01:14:49.020 That's an imminent threat.

01:14:50.100 You get arrested.

01:14:50.840 You also can't instruct someone else to do it.

01:14:52.740 You go do this thing to that person.

01:14:54.360 What they've done now, exploiting the law, and we're seeing Democrats do this at the highest level, is I, standing next to Oren McIntyre, says, anybody who writes claims about Megyn Kelly should die for what they've done.

01:15:09.400 Then Oren looks at you and goes, here are a false claim about Megyn Kelly.

01:15:13.000 Neither one of us have made an actionable statement.

01:15:15.180 But to anybody standing by, those two phrases together are an instruction to murder you.

01:15:21.220 This is what the left has been doing now for years.

01:15:24.080 Andy Ngo is a fascist.

01:15:25.440 Then someone else says, all fascists must die.

01:15:27.880 Then they go and see him in the street and try and murder him.

01:15:30.240 Then when you try to arrest them, they say, my statement was free speech because I said only half the sentence.

01:15:35.740 We cannot function as a society this way if the left is knowingly exploiting the law.

01:15:41.880 And a more extreme example, Democrats for months now have been falsely claiming that Donald Trump's military orders are illegal.

01:15:50.060 Then they come out in this video and say, defy illegal orders.

01:15:54.620 They then say both of those individual statements are free speech.

01:15:58.280 If you were to take all of their statements and put them together in one edit, if they said it in one 10-second statement, they'd be committing sedition.

01:16:06.860 We cannot operate in this country if people are allowed to say one thing and then their neighbor says the other.

01:16:12.120 We know what the intention is and then pretend like, oh, rats.

01:16:15.380 The failure to understand that your politics have become existential is by definition fatal.

01:16:21.880 Okay, so when you enter in a scenario where what I would like, what you and I think Joel would both like, is a republic where we can talk out our minor disagreements over Christian theology while living in a land that is ultimately governed by the law of Christ.

01:16:40.080 That would be fantastic.

01:16:41.560 But once you get so far apart, once you have people who believe a radically different thing and would be willing to kill you over it, debate is no longer the primary way by which you understand politics.

01:16:54.240 And this is critical.

01:16:55.820 I would like to avoid violence.

01:16:58.180 I would like to avoid violence.

01:17:00.140 But to do so, we have to understand that there are forces inside the United States that are and will not stop until they can kill you and your children.

01:17:08.860 And this is important.

01:17:11.560 That is what makes this fight so unfair, all right?

01:17:15.180 Because our enemy is a by any means necessary enemy.

01:17:20.740 They only want power.

01:17:22.280 They'll do whatever it takes to achieve it.

01:17:24.740 And here we are on our side as Christians.

01:17:28.160 I'm a Christian.

01:17:30.180 We have rules.

01:17:31.580 We have morals.

01:17:32.800 We have things that we can't do, right?

01:17:34.580 I think that we should do whatever it takes, you know, tactically and otherwise to win, short of violating Scripture.

01:17:43.360 And that's what makes the fight unfair.

01:17:46.880 But here's the thing.

01:17:48.020 Here's where faith comes in as a Christian.

01:17:50.920 We believe in a God who rules the universe, who is on the throne, who used Gideon's 300 men to defeat an army of thousands, who used David to defeat a giant, who says,

01:18:01.920 trust not in horses and chariots, but trust in the name of the Lord, not by might, not by power, not by strength, but by my spirit, says the Lord.

01:18:09.540 So it is an asymmetrical fight.

01:18:15.320 There are certain things that we can't do as Christians.

01:18:18.340 This is also very important.

01:18:21.280 When speaking to especially young men who are coming up and going to be politically active and hopefully going to be trying to save this country,

01:18:29.360 I am not willing to send them down a road that I think will rot away their souls so that I can win.

01:18:37.620 I'm not going to tell them, no enemies to the right.

01:18:41.240 You have to shut up about this certain evil that is bothering your conscience because it's not tactically beneficial to our side.

01:18:49.140 And again, that is a cripple.

01:18:52.660 That's a handicap on our side.

01:18:54.420 But as Christians, we have to have faith that God is going to bless it.

01:19:01.500 So in World War II, we allied with a godless communist killing millions of Christians.

01:19:08.620 Yes, that was the war.

01:19:09.920 Oh, I agree with you.

01:19:11.120 And then we firebombed Tokyo and Dresden, and then we dropped several nuclear bombs.

01:19:15.900 And by the way, I'm not arguing against any of you.

01:19:18.880 I'm sorry.

01:19:19.480 Yes, I do.

01:19:20.000 I George Bushed it.

01:19:21.500 But we were willing to make all of these compromises because we understood the existential nature of the situation.

01:19:31.000 Now, you can tell me that you don't believe-

01:19:33.080 When we get into a hot war, shooting war, I understand-

01:19:38.120 Charlie's dead.

01:19:38.660 I know.

01:19:39.480 I knew you were going to say that.

01:19:40.940 That's where you are.

01:19:42.900 That's the time.

01:19:43.780 We're not-

01:19:44.340 We are not there.

01:19:45.140 No, no, no.

01:19:45.420 Hold on.

01:19:45.700 Hold on.

01:19:46.020 I got to see.

01:19:46.300 We are not in a-

01:19:48.360 Hold on.

01:19:49.140 Hold on.

01:19:49.400 Hold on.

01:19:49.620 Hold on.

01:19:49.640 Oren, Oren, I respect the World War II, but it's a little Godwin's law, so I'll bring

01:19:54.880 it back 80 years further and ask you this question.

01:19:57.140 Since we were talking about fighting Nazis either way-

01:19:59.220 Let me ask you, do you think Abraham Lincoln did the right thing?

01:20:04.100 When he did what?

01:20:05.080 Generally, in the Civil War, the actions that were taken by the Union, was it the right thing

01:20:08.860 to do?

01:20:09.180 Um, I don't know.

01:20:15.000 Do you-

01:20:15.240 Are you-

01:20:15.600 Would you have preferred the Union to win?

01:20:17.500 You can go either way on it.

01:20:19.020 So, is there a worldview in your mind that, had the Confederacy successfully succeeded, it

01:20:26.120 would not necessarily be more or less good, morally good, or otherwise?

01:20:30.680 Had the Confederacy succeeded-

01:20:32.480 Is it a greater good that the Union won, or would you have seen a potentiality for a

01:20:37.320 greater good if the Confederacy won?

01:20:38.400 I don't know.

01:20:39.880 I mean, we can Monday morning quarterback it.

01:20:41.900 I mean, you know, I understand Lincoln did some bad stuff to win the Civil War.

01:20:46.860 You can argue that, you know-

01:20:48.500 Some.

01:20:49.100 Right.

01:20:49.940 It was, you know, it was-

01:20:52.300 We stopped slavery.

01:20:54.080 There was this-

01:20:54.580 He had kind of this moral argument on his side.

01:20:58.260 But so-

01:20:58.860 Except he didn't.

01:20:59.440 He didn't intend to end slavery at all.

01:21:01.140 He wanted to ship all the slaves back to Liberia.

01:21:02.760 Exactly.

01:21:03.340 He did.

01:21:04.300 Exactly.

01:21:04.840 I don't want to re-litigate the Civil War.

01:21:06.340 The point I'm making is, you said we are not in that moment if we are in a hot conflict.

01:21:11.860 Abraham Lincoln made it a hot conflict.

01:21:13.860 Right.

01:21:14.260 Now, I know there's going to be a great argument over the moral failings of the Confederacy and

01:21:19.560 slavery, which we all agree on.

01:21:20.760 Yeah.

01:21:20.960 And the argument that the actions they took resulted in.

01:21:23.680 But it is objective fact.

01:21:27.240 I would just say it is historical fact because who knows who wrote what.

01:21:30.980 I get it.

01:21:31.340 I get it.

01:21:31.920 But based on what we know, the federal government asserted authority over a base in South Carolina.

01:21:38.660 The South said, as we are no longer part of your union, vacate.

01:21:42.320 And the union refused.

01:21:43.840 So, a fight breaks out.

01:21:46.120 No one knows exactly who shot first.

01:21:47.820 But nobody died in this conflict, save for one person.

01:21:50.340 It was an accident.

01:21:51.820 After Fort Sumter happened, the perception in the United States was still, there is no

01:21:56.380 civil war.

01:21:57.340 The phrase civil war wasn't even in the lexicon.

01:22:01.220 People weren't even saying that term.

01:22:03.340 Abraham Lincoln, after this, suspends habeas corpus.

01:22:06.520 Right.

01:22:06.880 Begins moving troops.

01:22:08.120 Because when we look at the history of the civil war, we say it was at that moment it

01:22:14.380 began.

01:22:15.220 Yet, every single person in the country was like, we're not currently in a war.

01:22:20.420 Then you get the first Battle of Bull Run, where, again, it's the union approaching the

01:22:25.840 South in Virginia and people picnicking, saying we are not in a hot conflict.

01:22:31.220 And then bullets are flying and people are dying.

01:22:34.160 Even then, Abraham Lincoln begins the arrest of the Maryland state legislature, a portion

01:22:40.060 of them, with the suspension of habeas corpus, begins arresting people without charge or trial.

01:22:44.720 And people still, for two years, did not say we are in a civil war.

01:22:50.480 Even after the Battle of Bull Run, they still didn't think they were in a civil war.

01:22:54.280 So, my point is, when we look at the history of Sumter, and you take a look at the commentary

01:23:00.620 that we've seen, with Chris Murphy, a senator, now saying, pick a fucking side.

01:23:05.860 A sitting senator went on Twitter the other day and said, the president has called for

01:23:09.360 the execution of members of Congress.

01:23:11.740 Pick a fucking side.

01:23:13.220 We have them calling on, and we know what they're doing, members of the military to

01:23:17.260 defy lawful orders.

01:23:19.340 And then they say, no, no, we said unlawful.

01:23:21.500 Yes, but you've already defined lawful orders as unlawful.

01:23:24.300 Right.

01:23:24.380 You are calling for the factionalization of our military.

01:23:27.020 So, for people to then say, we have seen a sitting senator call for people to take sides.

01:23:33.080 We have seen, and with all due respect, Donald Trump did say, punishable by death.

01:23:38.660 And reposting, hang them.

01:23:40.480 And people are saying, good to this.

01:23:42.980 It doesn't matter if you are on one side or the other.

01:23:45.480 To be fair, I also did, on Twitter, I was like, come on, why can't we kill these guys?

01:23:49.140 Joking, of course.

01:23:50.300 Joking.

01:23:50.620 But the point is, we are at the point historically, where if you were to look at the actions of

01:23:57.100 Abraham Lincoln, and you were to say that his actions were justified, if Donald Trump

01:24:01.780 were to, right now, suspend habeas corpus along transport corridors for the National

01:24:05.360 Guard, and for the arrest of seditious conspirators, it would be perfectly within historical presidents

01:24:11.180 of Abraham Lincoln.

01:24:12.420 My point being...

01:24:13.240 You want that to happen?

01:24:14.180 No.

01:24:14.800 Okay.

01:24:15.220 But that's not what matters.

01:24:16.360 All right.

01:24:16.580 What I want is immaterial, and it's funny because this stuff is very stressful, particularly

01:24:21.060 for my family, and I remind my wife, hey, I have no control over the president saying

01:24:26.460 punishable by death, or a senator saying, on X, pick a side.

01:24:31.600 But to those that are paying attention, the realization is clear.

01:24:35.180 You best start believing in civil wars because you're in one.

01:24:37.980 And so when he's saying there are people that seek to murder you, the death threats that

01:24:42.460 I'm sure you get, and that I get, I went to Phoenix to go to Turning Point and do the

01:24:47.400 show with Charlie.

01:24:47.980 We spent, I believe it was about $11,000, because I had to have high-level security to

01:24:54.180 move around these areas because the death threats I get, and I'm called a milquetoast

01:24:57.980 fence sitter.

01:24:59.000 Yeah.

01:24:59.100 The reality is there are people that are trying to kill us and each other, and we are very

01:25:04.280 much at the inflection point of when Bleeding Kansas was becoming a full-scale civil war.

01:25:10.320 That is not a guarantee that this does become one.

01:25:13.560 But Charlie Kirk is dead, and to the best of our understanding, it appears to be an individual

01:25:18.560 motivated by political ideology opposed to Charlie Kirk's ideology decided to kill him.

01:25:24.220 There are tremendous failings of a security team, for sure.

01:25:26.820 That's a whole other story.

01:25:27.640 But the fact is, murder is on the menu for these people.

01:25:30.960 We are very much in a hot conflict.

01:25:33.180 The question then becomes, and I hear this all the time as to Oren's point, we were willing

01:25:37.000 to bomb Dresden, align ourselves with the Soviets, and nuke Japan, two cities.

01:25:42.840 What was it?

01:25:43.200 Several, was it 80,000 in Hiroshima or something?

01:25:45.940 I don't know.

01:25:46.500 I don't know the full numbers.

01:25:47.440 And now there's a question of, in these United States, who do we align with, though we may

01:25:52.500 not fully appreciate what they do, because the end result would be beneficial to us.

01:25:57.160 I don't believe you are saying, let America burn.

01:26:00.980 I believe in this regard, and to the point Oren is making, you are pointing out that Nick

01:26:06.000 is the enemy you are fighting.

01:26:07.900 Right.

01:26:08.160 So when you say we aligned with the Soviet Union, he's saying we're at war with the Nazis.

01:26:12.800 You're aligning Nick with that enemy you are fighting.

01:26:16.320 Yeah.

01:26:16.940 I mean, it's just horseshoe theory.

01:26:20.220 I see Nick as no different than the left.

01:26:22.240 They're both working for the overthrow of the United States.

01:26:24.540 I don't think it's horseshoe theory.

01:26:26.560 I think Nick is—the issue with calling Nick right-wing is to imply that being white

01:26:33.160 is right.

01:26:34.620 I mean right-leaning, not correct, right?

01:26:36.700 Right.

01:26:37.800 Nick's views largely overlap with leftists.

01:26:41.260 Right.

01:26:41.620 The difference is, Nick says white people good, and the left says white people bad.

01:26:45.660 Right.

01:26:46.020 That is not a left-right distinction right there.

01:26:47.760 That's a racial distinction.

01:26:48.880 Yeah.

01:26:49.160 So if they're both leftist economic identitarians, they actually are just different factions of

01:26:54.640 the same political ideology.

01:26:55.980 Correct.

01:26:57.180 Yeah.

01:26:57.940 Yeah, I would agree.

01:26:58.720 You know, and Matt Walsh said something to that effect, you know, just the other day

01:27:02.800 that, you know, I—you know, because people were calling him out, you know, hey, you just

01:27:06.460 called out someone on the right.

01:27:07.540 You said that we're supposed to stop fighting with the right, and he said, well, I don't

01:27:11.120 consider these people to my right, you know.

01:27:13.460 And that's kind of the argument that I've been making.

01:27:16.520 That's kind of the argument that James Lindsay has been making.

01:27:20.120 I would add this—

01:27:21.420 To be fair, everyone is to James' rights.

01:27:23.020 You know, well, no, and he's the unfortunate person that I think was right earlier than

01:27:29.240 a lot of people about this.

01:27:30.480 This is another question of warfare and willingness to win that, again, I know the issue of James

01:27:38.120 Lindsay is not the most pressing one, but let's just—I'll frame it in terms of your

01:27:42.480 ability to win what you're fighting for is severely incapacitated by your willingness

01:27:46.920 to bring infiltrators in your midst to destroy you.

01:27:49.860 And if you're not able to recognize that, you will lose.

01:27:53.020 Um, yeah, I just—I disagree that—

01:27:57.200 That the guy whose whole career is infiltrating groups he hates, presenting false arguments

01:28:02.940 to make them look retarded, you can't recognize he's doing that to you?

01:28:06.540 I don't think that's right at all.

01:28:08.240 It's certainly what he—so, what else is—why did his MO change?

01:28:12.300 I think he's just a little too trigger-happy, and I think it gets amplified online.

01:28:16.600 Is he famous for infiltrating groups and making them look stupid?

01:28:19.480 I don't know what you mean by that.

01:28:20.320 He tricked a bunch of academics into publishing retarded arguments on the left.

01:28:23.920 Yeah.

01:28:24.240 He also did it with American Reformer.

01:28:26.200 He got them to publish—

01:28:27.440 How many followers did they have?

01:28:29.780 3,000?

01:28:30.960 American Reformer?

01:28:32.000 Yeah.

01:28:32.280 I don't know.

01:28:33.040 They're a—yeah, they're a publication on the right.

01:28:36.180 So, this is—it's—I will say this.

01:28:39.180 James Lindsay is the best at this.

01:28:41.540 That's why he got so much attention for doing it.

01:28:43.400 And when—intention, emotion, all of these things matter very little other than results

01:28:50.120 and the actions being taken.

01:28:52.640 And if I was going to map out your argument and quantify success and failure, I would argue

01:28:58.620 that your willingness to embrace the person—he's literally just taking a shit all over everything

01:29:04.780 you're arguing for, and you're willing to accept it because he's good at it.

01:29:08.580 He's very good at it.

01:29:09.520 I would argue that a man who is famous solely for infiltrating groups, tricking them into

01:29:15.420 presenting false arguments—I don't understand why all of a sudden you're like, but he's

01:29:19.960 not doing it now.

01:29:21.040 And I'm like, but it's all he's ever done.

01:29:22.700 I thought it was brilliant.

01:29:23.700 I mean, he destroyed the whole, you know, the—

01:29:27.240 And now he's doing it to you.

01:29:28.100 He pulled back the curtain of the peer review system, what a bunch of hacks these people

01:29:33.520 are in our universities.

01:29:34.240 He's doing it to you now.

01:29:35.220 No, he did it.

01:29:36.240 He did it.

01:29:36.800 I think he was trying to expose how sections of the right are starting to go the Nick Fuentes

01:29:43.320 route.

01:29:43.880 They're starting to become friendly of—

01:29:45.720 No, I think—

01:29:46.040 James—

01:29:46.400 What happened with Nick Fuentes in saying, we need to unite with the left, become socialist

01:29:52.200 and ethnically homogenous?

01:29:55.300 That's exactly what James Lindsay has been trying to tell everybody for years.

01:29:58.760 James is a deconstructionist.

01:30:00.860 It's all he does.

01:30:01.520 He deconstructed Christianity when he was a new atheist.

01:30:04.780 He then deconstructed the peer review process when he was doing the, you know, that.

01:30:10.760 Then he deconstructed the woke stuff, and now he's deconstructing the right—

01:30:13.260 That's what I do.

01:30:14.120 That's what I do through the Babylon Bee.

01:30:15.920 I'm a deconstructionist of bad ideas and bad philosophies.

01:30:19.780 The point being is—

01:30:20.420 It's tearing down sacred cows.

01:30:22.020 It's death works against evil.

01:30:23.220 The point is—

01:30:23.940 That's what I do.

01:30:24.480 That all you ever hear from James is, don't believe this, don't read this, don't do this.

01:30:29.380 The question is, what does James believe?

01:30:32.120 Like, what is it—

01:30:32.980 When was the last time you had him stop and say, here's a Christian political theorist

01:30:37.600 that I would like to highlight because he's correct?

01:30:40.180 The point I'm trying to make—

01:30:41.340 It's nothing.

01:30:41.860 It's all deconstruction.

01:30:42.780 He believes in liberty.

01:30:43.920 It's very—

01:30:44.340 The point is this.

01:30:44.760 Liberty first is something that he says all the time.

01:30:47.320 It's an empty slogan.

01:30:48.140 I'm not interested in debating the personality traits of James Lindsay.

01:30:53.060 The reason he comes up is because it is patently obvious he is the most detrimental force on your side.

01:31:00.180 And you have adopted him.

01:31:01.300 And you are unwilling to recognize the simple mathematical equation.

01:31:06.180 He is not a conservative.

01:31:07.460 He has always been opposed to conservatives.

01:31:10.160 He has said he should be their leader.

01:31:12.020 And his enemy is national conservatism.

01:31:14.180 He is famous for infiltrating groups and presenting false arguments so they look dumb.

01:31:18.720 And he is consistently doing that to you.

01:31:21.500 Now, by all means, you do whatever you want.

01:31:23.920 Charlie Kirk loved James Lindsay.

01:31:25.500 I will—

01:31:26.000 He loved James Lindsay.

01:31:26.580 What, Charlie Kirk—

01:31:27.040 And Tucker Carlson.

01:31:28.100 Well, yeah.

01:31:28.760 Indeed.

01:31:29.320 And he brought us to AmFest as well because he wanted a big tent movement so that everybody

01:31:33.800 was operating within the umbrella of national conservatism.

01:31:37.100 And he—you've seen that meme of the dam, you know, Charlie Kirk, and then behind the

01:31:41.860 dam is absolute total retardation.

01:31:44.260 That's where we are, man.

01:31:45.060 That's where we are.

01:31:45.760 My—

01:31:46.320 His assassination was devastating.

01:31:48.740 My point was not to—you know, you make the point about James' personal beliefs and

01:31:52.740 things like that.

01:31:53.560 My point is there is one side saying there are enemies that seek to destroy us, and we

01:31:59.420 must monitor their actions to see what they do.

01:32:02.560 Intention, emotion is meaningless.

01:32:05.120 What matters is we as a people, the actions we take, and where we'll be one year from

01:32:09.780 now should that be the case.

01:32:10.860 So—

01:32:11.140 Sorry.

01:32:11.200 And just the final point on this.

01:32:13.640 With your adoption, bringing the enemies into your midst, you will lose.

01:32:18.940 And the bigger picture is, I think what Aron is pointing out, that in times of war, one

01:32:23.640 must be willing to do what, like, side with the Soviets if we're going to stop the Nazis.

01:32:28.180 And what you're saying is, I'm going to actually join an infiltrator, let them run amok and

01:32:33.940 cause damage because I see—because you trust them.

01:32:37.520 Yeah, I do.

01:32:38.420 I, you know, I'm sorry.

01:32:40.680 I just don't agree with your character.

01:32:42.400 Why make Carl Benjamin an enemy?

01:32:46.660 I don't know enough about Carl Benjamin.

01:32:48.620 Carl, why make me an enemy?

01:32:50.420 So, okay, so Carl Benjamin, he and I got into a little back and forth about—it was over

01:33:00.220 the Declaration of Independence, because he said that no nation has ever been founded

01:33:07.420 on a document or something like that.

01:33:09.880 And I shared a picture of the Declaration.

01:33:11.420 And this kind of argument ensued, kind of similar to what we said, that, you know, is the document

01:33:18.760 defining the people, or do the people make the document?

01:33:21.520 You know, I think it's a little of both.

01:33:22.900 Um, you know, I think that this, um, this argument is between kind of classical liberalism, moral

01:33:34.180 realism, um, and kind of like this more like, like ancient, almost pagan folk idea, um, on

01:33:43.460 the right.

01:33:44.440 Um, you understand that classical liberalism is not moral realism.

01:33:48.060 Those aren't the same thing.

01:33:48.760 Well, no, but, um, the—

01:33:51.740 And, and Carl's not a classical liberal either.

01:33:53.720 No, no, no, no, James Lindsay is, or I—

01:33:56.320 He's not.

01:33:56.660 He's absolutely not.

01:33:57.880 He's a progressive.

01:33:58.760 I might be—

01:33:59.380 I might—

01:33:59.680 John Locke said that atheists should be banned from public life.

01:34:02.320 He is the father of classical liberalism.

01:34:04.340 My question is this.

01:34:05.400 James is an atheist.

01:34:06.320 You know he's making enemies for you.

01:34:08.620 It's not helping you.

01:34:09.780 You're not growing your movement.

01:34:10.740 Your movement is being damaged by this extensively.

01:34:13.840 Here's—okay, this is my only concern.

01:34:16.260 Um, I'm not concerned with, with who's on my side or who's not.

01:34:23.300 Then you'll lose.

01:34:24.340 Well, maybe.

01:34:25.200 Maybe.

01:34:25.780 Also, I thought that was the entire debate.

01:34:27.220 My only concern—no, my only concern is to speak truth to the best of my ability, to

01:34:34.320 be faithful as I can with, with the platform that God has given me, um, to call out evil

01:34:40.480 and bad ideas wherever I see them, no matter what side it's on, no matter how politically

01:34:44.640 expedient it is, that's what I feel I'm going to be held accountable for when I stand before

01:34:51.360 God.

01:34:51.680 God's not going to say, did you own the libs?

01:34:53.600 Did you help your side win?

01:34:55.040 He's going to say, were you obedient to me?

01:34:57.560 Did you speak the truth in love?

01:34:59.380 Did you do what's right, no matter what?

01:35:01.340 Nick has—

01:35:02.140 If my side is—if it loses, if it's in the minority, if it's destined for failure—

01:35:07.580 And you will, because Nick has no greater ally than James Lindsay.

01:35:13.340 I disagree.

01:35:15.140 Well, you would be wrong because when Constantine Kyson, you or Seth or anyone out, comes out

01:35:20.520 and says, woke right, and a regular person says, what does this woke right thing mean?

01:35:25.520 And you say, there are people who align themselves with conservatism who use the oppressed versus

01:35:30.820 oppressor arguments, similar to the woke left, and we believe they share a moral worldview

01:35:36.580 that is particularly Marxist.

01:35:38.720 A regular person goes, interesting.

01:35:41.220 Then James comes, shits on the floor, throws it in their face, and they say, I'm going to

01:35:45.300 go listen to Nick Fuentes instead because at least I'm getting shit thrown at me.

01:35:47.780 My point ultimately is—

01:35:48.640 I think it's fair.

01:35:49.720 We can maybe agree that James' approach and his tactics are not helping him or not helping

01:35:55.880 him.

01:35:56.020 He's hurting you and helping Nick.

01:35:58.280 As Chris Ruffo has pointed out, this frame of oppressor versus oppressed would make the

01:36:02.440 Declaration of Independence woke right, because it's literally a list of your grievances.

01:36:07.100 It's got a section called the grievances—

01:36:09.540 Against your oppressor.

01:36:10.660 Grievances against the oppressive king.

01:36:12.980 Marxism and woke right is not—acknowledging the reality of oppression and being oppressed

01:36:18.320 does not make one woke right or Marxist.

01:36:20.700 It's reducing everything to oppressor versus depressed.

01:36:25.020 Just like friend-enemy, it's reducing everything to friend-enemy.

01:36:30.660 When you reduce complex human interactions and the entire existence of morality down to

01:36:38.320 a very simple interaction—

01:36:40.020 That's what James is doing.

01:36:41.420 It's literally his entire campaign.

01:36:42.980 It's calling people out who are doing it.

01:36:44.700 No, it's literally him creating exactly this thing.

01:36:46.360 He called me a Marxist.

01:36:47.160 He called me a Marxist plant.

01:36:48.680 He said, I'm too big.

01:36:51.060 It doesn't make sense.

01:36:51.840 I'm possibly a plant, and I'm a Marxist, and they always lie.

01:36:54.780 This is conspiracy garbage nonsense that for an audience of my size—I'm not saying

01:37:00.040 I have the biggest show in the world, but with millions of followers—they trust me.

01:37:03.340 They like my show.

01:37:04.340 And then James calls me a Marxist.

01:37:05.760 And the immediate response was his entire feed filled with people calling me a retard.

01:37:09.340 And I will say this because Phil Labonte, a great friend and co-host on my show, was

01:37:13.660 a huge fan of his for a long time and constantly would mention things he said in new discourses.

01:37:18.660 And now he's like, James has gone insane.

01:37:21.480 And he's made your faction look retarded.

01:37:25.580 He knows you.

01:37:26.180 He's close to you.

01:37:26.920 He knows better, right?

01:37:28.440 But all of my followers—

01:37:29.800 It's almost like James is to collapse all of those details into some specific distinction

01:37:34.800 that he can then use to wedge people.

01:37:37.220 It's almost like his intention is to infiltrate your side, make the stupidest argument possible,

01:37:43.460 so that millions of people say, these people are retards, like he has always done.

01:37:48.780 So I know the Twitter back and forth is like the thing here.

01:37:53.180 I feel your passion.

01:37:54.300 I'm with you on all of this stuff.

01:37:55.920 But this is honestly the least productive part of the conversation.

01:37:59.300 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:59.800 I don't want to talk about James Lee.

01:38:01.400 Hold on, hold on, hold on.

01:38:02.300 Let me just say this.

01:38:03.380 The issue is not James Lee.

01:38:05.660 He just epitomizes the argument of when you say you won't align with someone like Nick,

01:38:10.600 but you're willing to align with them.

01:38:11.900 My point is I don't understand why you'd be willing to align with destructive forces.

01:38:17.780 However, I suppose it's fair to say that you support his moral worldview more than Nick's.

01:38:22.360 Yes.

01:38:22.560 And the point of this conversation is if you are unwilling or incapable of recognizing destructive forces,

01:38:30.580 I don't trust your assessment of Nick.

01:38:33.220 I don't think people will also.

01:38:34.700 I believe that the argument of what woke right is is completely meaningless, and regular people are—

01:38:41.320 We need to distinguish between disruptive forces and actual evil and good.

01:38:49.020 So we'll put it like this.

01:38:50.320 You can have a good person with good morals who is trying to do a good thing, who is going about it the wrong way,

01:38:55.320 doing more harm than good.

01:38:56.360 That's an argument to be made.

01:38:57.480 But that's not what I'm talking about.

01:38:59.640 My point with James Lindsay being the avatar of this function is that Nick is growing.

01:39:06.140 He's becoming more popular.

01:39:07.540 I was talking with some big tech guys who—sales and analysts, and they were like,

01:39:10.880 Nick's numbers are getting crazy.

01:39:12.740 I mean, he hit number one on Spotify.

01:39:14.820 They banned him because he was getting too big.

01:39:17.200 And the question is why is this happening, and what will you do if you don't want it to win?

01:39:21.560 So real quick, just the principal debate is what is the future going to look like?

01:39:25.140 And it's largely around the ascension of Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson's defense of him and his willingness to debate him,

01:39:33.080 Megyn Kelly, and I look at what y'all are doing, and what is the argument against Nick?

01:39:39.200 You've made some good ones.

01:39:40.720 Unfortunately, woke right being a phrase thrown around quite a bit at people like Nick or Candace or Tucker

01:39:47.420 has become a meaningless term because you've allowed infiltrators on your side to destroy your ideas.

01:39:53.460 It's been overused, overapplied, and it's become meaningless.

01:39:56.940 And then there was a thing that the other side did that was like they kind of pulled the Uno reverse card

01:40:01.180 and said, like, no you.

01:40:02.180 So now you have kind of progressive center-left people being also called woke right.

01:40:07.420 No one knows what it means anymore.

01:40:08.660 I'll take credit for that.

01:40:09.700 Yeah, I know.

01:40:10.260 I saw you do that.

01:40:10.960 Because I believe it's true.

01:40:11.900 I think a better way to describe this, a better way to understand it, is like godless right or pagan right.

01:40:21.860 It's like post-Christian right.

01:40:24.300 Who was it?

01:40:24.960 Was it Ross Duthat who said, the New York Times guy, who said, if you hate the Christian right, wait until you see the post-Christian right.

01:40:32.620 And that's, I think, what we see rising.

01:40:35.740 So this is, again, just bad faith, friend-enemy distinction stuff all the way down.

01:40:41.340 You're like, so anybody who disagrees with me is a pagan, actually.

01:40:44.300 And all the people on my side, even if they literally are pagans, like even if they literally don't agree with Christianity,

01:40:49.760 they're in good faith.

01:40:50.660 But everybody on the other side who is a Christian and is an actual professing, living their life Christian,

01:40:55.140 they're all bad faith and therefore they are pagan.

01:40:57.080 It's the most obvious move in the world.

01:40:58.480 No, I'm not saying they're pagan.

01:41:00.520 I'm saying that they're, well...

01:41:01.640 It is literally what you're saying.

01:41:02.880 I'm saying that they're functionally pagan and their movement is pagan.

01:41:05.520 Mm-hmm.

01:41:06.040 Okay?

01:41:06.420 I think that Christians can join evil movements, and I think that non-Christians can join good movements.

01:41:12.580 Again, so...

01:41:13.200 So I'm looking at the general thrust and in the overall moral direction of a movement,

01:41:19.220 are you going towards evil or are you going towards good?

01:41:23.440 And I will ally with non-Christians who are on the side of good.

01:41:27.680 So Christianity does not determine good, it's something else.

01:41:30.920 No, well, God's word defines what's good.

01:41:33.320 Okay.

01:41:33.760 Yeah.

01:41:34.440 We have to go back to the word of God.

01:41:36.420 So those who are denying God's word but agree with you, they are good.

01:41:39.900 And people who are following God's word but disagree with you, they are pagan.

01:41:43.580 Okay, so there's this thing, you know, C.S. Lewis talked about it in The Abolition of Man.

01:41:50.240 He called it the Tao or the Way.

01:41:52.380 You know, there is this natural law written into the fabric of the universe by the Creator

01:41:59.060 that has always existed, it's always been there, it's revealed in part by God's word,

01:42:06.280 God doesn't reveal all of it, but there is just this sense that there is a way, there

01:42:11.720 is a truth, both physical and spiritual, that has always existed, it is transcendent,

01:42:15.900 and all we can do is try to be as in conformity with that as we possibly can, right?

01:42:24.240 There are Christians or people who claim Christianity who don't follow the Tao.

01:42:32.440 There are people who are Jews, agnostic, or otherwise, who buy their fruit, by the way

01:42:41.000 they live their life, by the way they treat others.

01:42:43.060 What are the two greatest commandments?

01:42:44.660 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, love your neighbor

01:42:46.860 as yourself.

01:42:47.940 All the law and the prophets hang on those two.

01:42:52.140 There are non-Christians who follow that way better than some Christians.

01:42:59.100 And so my calculus here is not, you know, who recites the right creed, who is a part of

01:43:06.440 my specific theology, it is who is following the way of Christ according to how it's written

01:43:15.220 in God's word.

01:43:15.900 But what does theology mean to you?

01:43:18.700 Study of God.

01:43:19.620 Okay, so if that is the way of Christ, then how can you...

01:43:23.040 So the whole point here is that ultimately you are assuming that there is some supra value

01:43:29.120 above Christianity that can bind non-Christians together into a Christian coalition, but exclude

01:43:34.940 Christians from that Christian coalition.

01:43:37.500 And that's confusing.

01:43:39.120 But also, and this is really critical, several times here, and this is what I really, again,

01:43:44.400 away from the personalities, Nick, James, whatever, who cares?

01:43:47.440 Like, the point is that we are in a situation where we, as you said, you want to be a revanchist,

01:43:53.920 right?

01:43:54.060 You don't want to be a revolutionary.

01:43:55.040 You want to be someone who returns us back to something.

01:43:57.920 But when it comes time to talk about what we're returning to, we don't know.

01:44:01.540 We don't know what time.

01:44:02.620 We don't know what place.

01:44:03.840 We don't know what version of the Constitution.

01:44:05.700 We don't know what we'd keep, what we'd discard.

01:44:07.980 We don't have any of these conversations done.

01:44:10.700 And if you don't share those values and you don't understand those things, then trying

01:44:14.460 to form a coalition around things you can't define is a huge problem.

01:44:18.220 So for instance, you say, my coalition is a coalition of liberty.

01:44:21.700 Well, that word has been distorted to mean all kinds of things.

01:44:24.100 Liberty could be doing drugs in the middle of the street.

01:44:27.000 It could be sports betting, right?

01:44:28.420 Like, these are things that libertarians argue for because they are liberty, right?

01:44:33.080 So even that definition is insufficient because it doesn't get the job done.

01:44:37.080 I argue for liberty.

01:44:38.840 And you know what I think?

01:44:39.780 I think we should have blue laws.

01:44:41.280 Because blue laws would limit the amount of vice, which would allow people to go to church

01:44:45.280 on Sunday.

01:44:45.960 It would increase the power of Christianity in the society.

01:44:48.400 I think the government should use its power to increase the power and focus of Christianity

01:44:52.780 in the church.

01:44:53.560 Is that a pagan position because it limits your economic liberty?

01:44:56.940 No.

01:44:57.380 No, no, no.

01:44:57.900 I'm in full agreement with you.

01:44:59.220 Okay.

01:44:59.520 So then it seems like this is a non-issue.

01:45:03.180 Like, we can use power.

01:45:04.900 Yeah.

01:45:05.080 We can use it to secure Christianity as the majority religion of this country.

01:45:09.180 Like, I don't see why I'm a pagan and you're not.

01:45:12.780 No, I'm not calling you a pagan.

01:45:14.040 I have a question, though, on the limitations of your willingness to align with evildoers.

01:45:19.000 Yeah.

01:45:19.580 What?

01:45:20.520 I know it's-

01:45:21.280 Like Trump.

01:45:23.120 If you think so.

01:45:24.080 Like my friend, Uncle Trump.

01:45:25.340 I don't think Trump's an evildoer at all.

01:45:26.960 Oh, we are.

01:45:27.800 We're all evildoers.

01:45:28.340 No, no, no, no, no.

01:45:28.840 We're all fallen sinners.

01:45:29.800 But Trump has done bad things, you know?

01:45:31.600 My point is, when you refer to someone as an evildoer, it is their principal motivation.

01:45:36.160 It is their character.

01:45:37.640 If you call all-

01:45:38.800 It's the movement they're pushing for.

01:45:39.980 All people have fallen short, but some people do better than others.

01:45:43.580 Some people intentionally fall short and actually seek to make others fall as well.

01:45:48.060 Trump is not one of those people.

01:45:49.400 Right.

01:45:49.580 Trump has his problems for sure.

01:45:52.100 But I believe-

01:45:52.540 Trump is a great example of someone who may not be a Christian, doesn't share my theology,

01:45:58.620 obviously, but is following that Tao, that way.

01:46:03.340 The general thrust of what he's doing is in keeping with Christian morality and natural law.

01:46:10.160 So my question is, is there an action someone could take that, regardless of their worldview,

01:46:15.920 you'd say, I will never work with you?

01:46:19.720 Like a pedophile, for instance, right?

01:46:21.520 Yeah.

01:46:21.780 There's a guy who brutally rapes a child, goes to prison, gets out 10 years later, and then

01:46:26.700 says, you know what?

01:46:28.140 I now want to work towards the message of Jesus Christ and reform my life and change.

01:46:32.180 Would you work with that person?

01:46:35.880 If they reform and they find Jesus Christ?

01:46:38.920 A person who rapes a child, goes to prison, 10 years later gets out and says, I was dark,

01:46:45.380 I was evil, I was sinful, I have found Christ, I have turned my life around, you know, and

01:46:49.340 now they preach.

01:46:51.080 Would you work with that person?

01:46:53.000 I don't think it would be prudent.

01:46:55.340 You know, obviously, people can be redeemed, they can be forgiven, we can celebrate and

01:46:58.540 rejoice in that.

01:46:59.180 But I don't think it would be wise to join with somebody like that.

01:47:05.840 Well, the Christian solution here is a millstone, so it's kind of a good point.

01:47:09.960 Yeah.

01:47:10.440 If we had our way, he wouldn't be getting out of here.

01:47:12.820 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:47:13.440 I mean, by all means, may the Lord save you right before you get tied into the river.

01:47:17.440 Yep, exactly.

01:47:18.380 A hundred percent.

01:47:19.260 Mercy on your soul.

01:47:20.040 So DeSantis in Florida is doing it right.

01:47:23.060 This is the most extreme example for obvious reasons.

01:47:26.180 But when you start looking at, you know, evil actions an individual could take, what about

01:47:30.520 a murderer?

01:47:31.460 Yeah.

01:47:32.040 So if somebody murdered someone in envy, greed, and malice, stole their clothes, and it was

01:47:39.580 a particularly brutal murder with a knife, went to prison for 20 years, got out and said,

01:47:43.300 I have repented, I have found Christ, I am changing my life, and will seek to help others

01:47:46.920 do the same.

01:47:47.320 Would you work with that person?

01:47:48.480 Yeah, you know, again, going back to the other example, that person should be executed.

01:47:53.600 We shouldn't even be sending murderers to prison for any length of time.

01:47:56.840 There's just a death penalty.

01:47:57.920 I think the reason I ask this is because we had a conversation earlier about willingness

01:48:03.940 to work with people who do evil things.

01:48:05.860 There certainly is a line to which you are willing to accept evil actions if they benefit

01:48:09.980 you.

01:48:10.600 And that's not a statement of whether or not that person can be redeemed.

01:48:13.420 It's a statement of, is it prudent to join with that person?

01:48:17.020 What about someone who is a human trafficker?

01:48:20.300 Yeah, I mean...

01:48:21.060 Never work with them?

01:48:21.980 I mean, no.

01:48:22.580 Like if a coyote cartel member in Mexico was taking money in exchange for transporting

01:48:27.960 children and bringing them to the United States, and then 10 years later said, I'll never do

01:48:31.960 it.

01:48:32.320 Yeah, I don't...

01:48:32.840 What about a guy who's actually just in the United States, and the cartel shows up, and

01:48:36.260 he says, I'll give you $10,000 for that little girl, and then 10 years later says it was a

01:48:40.520 mistake I should...

01:48:40.940 So, I mean, the point you're making is that there's a line, right?

01:48:43.520 There are certain things that we won't unite with or work with people.

01:48:46.320 Specifically in this, I'm getting to this point of someone who is human trafficked and

01:48:50.340 bought children you would not work with.

01:48:53.200 Work with?

01:48:53.880 Probably no.

01:48:54.540 Except Dave Rubin.

01:48:55.640 No, they might say something politically that I'll agree with, but I won't work with him.

01:49:03.080 I won't work with Dave Rubin.

01:49:04.400 I won't unite with him in ministry or start a media company with him.

01:49:09.340 But if he tweets something that I agree with, I might like the tweet.

01:49:13.240 Do you believe that...

01:49:13.900 That's not uniting with him or working with him.

01:49:16.380 Do you believe that the actions that Dave Rubin has taken are comparable to what you

01:49:20.340 said about the millstone and, you know, biblical solutions to these issues?

01:49:25.020 I don't know.

01:49:25.740 I don't know what Dave Rubin has done in his personal life.

01:49:28.180 I don't want to speculate.

01:49:29.620 Paying a woman to carry a child for which he then took custody of.

01:49:32.960 Yeah, it was wrong.

01:49:33.960 It shouldn't be done, it shouldn't be legal.

01:49:35.480 Is that viewed in the Christian faith?

01:49:37.500 If people talk to him, are they platforming him?

01:49:39.360 What?

01:49:39.800 If they talk to him, are they platforming him?

01:49:41.320 Not necessarily.

01:49:45.600 So if someone had a conversation with him, let's say Megyn Kelly had a conversation with

01:49:49.000 him tomorrow and didn't bring up specifically disagreeing with its choice of purchasing children.

01:49:55.140 They talk all the time.

01:49:55.840 But let's assume for a minute that that did not occur.

01:49:57.960 Would you attack her for platforming someone and not addressing those issues and those

01:50:03.800 beliefs and the things that he's advocated for?

01:50:06.560 Would he be untouchable in the way that Fuentes is untouchable?

01:50:09.360 If Dave Rubin were out there politically advocating for, like, we need to make surrogacy legal,

01:50:16.700 we need more of this, we need to open it up legislatively, we should have no restrictions

01:50:23.680 on it, anyone should be, you know, thruples and whoever should be allowed to buy whatever

01:50:29.700 child they want.

01:50:30.220 Let's just say he's advocating for what he's done.

01:50:31.760 If he was out there doing it in the same way that Nick Fuentes advocates for what he

01:50:36.980 is advocating for, he would absolutely be an enemy.

01:50:40.040 I mean, and we would absolutely challenge Megyn Kelly for not bringing that up because

01:50:44.240 it's not conservative.

01:50:45.640 It's hypocrisy.

01:50:46.220 It doesn't fit in with the conservative movement.

01:50:47.600 So you referenced singular quotes from Nick that he said, and then when it came to the

01:50:52.240 issue of Dave Rubin, you argued in the extreme of he had to go out and advocate and proselytize

01:50:56.820 this particular thing.

01:50:57.540 That's what Nick's doing.

01:50:58.520 Nick is proselytizing.

01:50:59.940 Nick has...

01:51:00.940 I've never seen...

01:51:01.800 How many times has he praised Hitler?

01:51:03.220 I've never once seen Dave Rubin go on a show and say, we need more surrogacy.

01:51:08.000 How many times has he praised Hitler?

01:51:09.420 More gay adoptions.

01:51:10.700 I've never seen him do that.

01:51:11.420 How many times has Nick praised Hitler?

01:51:12.920 I don't know.

01:51:13.620 Exactly.

01:51:14.420 And Dave has promoted surrogacy.

01:51:16.360 At least once.

01:51:17.660 Indeed.

01:51:18.100 And Dave has at least once promoted surrogacy.

01:51:20.220 So what is the moral decision?

01:51:21.380 You really think Nick Fuentes has only praised Hitler once?

01:51:23.360 And I don't think Dave has only posted about surrogacy once.

01:51:27.400 I've only seen...

01:51:28.520 The point is, I believe your morals are fake.

01:51:31.960 You are...

01:51:32.300 Come on.

01:51:32.700 I genuinely do.

01:51:34.060 This is...

01:51:34.540 The frustration that I have in my voice is not because I'm passionate about one way

01:51:38.180 or the other, or whether Nick did or did not.

01:51:39.120 You're bringing up easy examples like Dave Rubin and...

01:51:41.920 Easy examples, because the point is...

01:51:43.420 Let's talk about Trump.

01:51:44.220 I'm trying to understand where your moral lines are.

01:51:47.080 I will talk entirely.

01:51:49.180 Look at what Trump promoted on his reality shows, and Playboy magazine.

01:51:53.120 I'm not a Christian.

01:51:54.100 Okay, I am.

01:51:55.020 Indeed.

01:51:55.780 And Christians overwhelmingly voted for Trump.

01:51:58.480 And I think your aversion to Nick Fuentes is based on some clips you've seen for which

01:52:02.840 you are largely ignorant of his larger message, and you've ascribed him this position as an

01:52:08.160 evil nihilist without watching anything he said.

01:52:10.640 Because Nick is advocating for it.

01:52:12.180 For what?

01:52:12.600 For what specifically?

01:52:13.420 It is not something that he's...

01:52:14.360 For what specifically?

01:52:14.980 Who he is in his personal life.

01:52:15.600 What is he advocated for?

01:52:18.580 Are you going to mention the singular quote from just the other day where he said, unite

01:52:21.200 with the left?

01:52:22.640 Let's talk about before that, because you've been anti-Nick for a while.

01:52:25.620 Yeah.

01:52:25.760 What has he said that you are against and believe he is a nihilist for all these reasons?

01:52:30.060 Why are you challenging me on Nick Fuentes?

01:52:31.620 We're all agreed on this.

01:52:32.800 Like, we've all seen the clips of what he says.

01:52:34.180 Because I don't think you have an answer.

01:52:35.180 He's advocated for child brides.

01:52:38.940 He's advocated for, you know, he's questioned the Holocaust.

01:52:42.240 He's said Hitler is really cool.

01:52:44.780 He's talked about how we need to deport all the Jews and all the browns and all the blacks.

01:52:50.540 He is, I mean, I don't watch his show.

01:52:53.880 I've just seen that.

01:52:54.380 The point that I was making is that, exactly, your view of Nick Fuentes.

01:52:58.540 I've seen enough.

01:52:59.140 I've seen enough.

01:52:59.920 Like, why is this so hard?

01:53:01.200 Well, you know, Donald Trump also called Nazis fine people.

01:53:04.060 Donald Trump called Nazis fine people.

01:53:05.420 No, he didn't.

01:53:05.980 Oh, wait, wait, hold on.

01:53:07.060 Because we analyzed further to look at the full context of his messages.

01:53:10.020 You think that the media is treating Nick Fuentes unfairly the way they treated Donald Trump unfairly?

01:53:15.180 You really think that?

01:53:15.840 I think they are treating Nick unfairly, for sure.

01:53:17.880 Oh, come on.

01:53:18.420 His Spotify podcast got banned.

01:53:20.200 Donald Trump.

01:53:20.720 You want to make an argument about what he believes?

01:53:22.140 Make an argument.

01:53:22.520 The argument we're having right now is that Nick shouldn't be allowed to be interviewed by Tucker Carlson,

01:53:27.340 and Tucker is at fault for having talked to him.

01:53:29.380 Oh, no, I think he should be allowed to be interviewed by Tucker Carlson.

01:53:31.640 Why are we talking about this?

01:53:33.280 He's free to do it.

01:53:34.600 I think it was a softball pansy interview, but I think that he should be free to do it.

01:53:38.580 And the whole debate here is that Tucker is under fire for having interviewed Nick and is responding to it,

01:53:44.000 and the question we're having is between these factions of no enemies on the right.

01:53:46.680 And my point is Nick has said certainly many important things.

01:53:49.940 You've not investigated and don't know for sure.

01:53:52.000 But you've seen clips.

01:53:53.320 I've seen lots of clips.

01:53:54.340 And this is exactly what I was told by liberals when they came on my show and they say that Donald Trump called Nazis fine people.

01:54:01.100 And I say, watch the full video to understand, then condemn him.

01:54:03.740 And they say, I've seen enough.

01:54:05.620 Okay, listen.

01:54:07.180 This is what I call woke right.

01:54:08.940 No, come on.

01:54:09.860 I've watched hours of his content.

01:54:12.060 I've interacted with him directly on Twitter.

01:54:15.960 I've interacted directly with his followers.

01:54:18.620 I've interacted with people who used to be in the movement and escaped.

01:54:22.300 I think we've all seen enough.

01:54:25.140 Donald Trump, I mean, it was – everyone saw it.

01:54:28.960 At least everyone on the right saw how he said, you know, find people on both sides.

01:54:33.780 And I'm not talking about the Nazis and KKK.

01:54:36.140 My point is they deleted –

01:54:38.140 Because they should be condemned totally.

01:54:39.080 They deleted Nick from Spotify.

01:54:40.000 You will never find –

01:54:41.140 Banned him from YouTube.

01:54:42.060 Banned him from X.

01:54:42.900 You will –

01:54:43.240 And the argument is how – I don't care for – Nick has said important things.

01:54:51.000 He said nasty things.

01:54:52.060 I completely disagree with him in a lot of these regards, especially the latest comment about uniting with the left.

01:54:55.620 The point I'm making is if the debate is we are looking at a new right phenomenon, a fracturing on the right, I believe that you represent what I call woke right.

01:55:07.720 Yeah, you're doing – playing the Uno-Reverse card again.

01:55:09.700 Absolutely, because you refused to debate Joel Wedden.

01:55:12.060 I'm sorry, Wedden.

01:55:13.400 When he was here last night and said – I said, let's ask Joel if he would be willing to have you on the show.

01:55:18.300 You said no.

01:55:19.280 Yeah.

01:55:19.420 This is characteristic of the cult-like social orthodoxies of the liberals, the order.

01:55:24.480 What?

01:55:25.420 Your unwillingness to have conversations and debates.

01:55:28.020 Hence, the debate we're having is whether or not –

01:55:29.420 No, I wasn't prepared to talk with him, and I didn't want it to be three-on-one because I knew he would be on your guys' side.

01:55:34.540 So I wasn't prepared.

01:55:35.780 I didn't want to get off subject.

01:55:38.080 I was here to talk with Arn.

01:55:39.560 Woke right?

01:55:40.100 What are you talking about?

01:55:40.840 So my view of woke right is the same cult-like tendencies.

01:55:46.340 I define woke by its unique characteristics identified by most people.

01:55:50.760 So when Ben Shapiro comes out and says woke means cultural Marxism or whatever, that's not necessarily true because it doesn't explain blind support for Ukraine aligning or Hassan Piker.

01:56:01.440 So you define it differently.

01:56:02.600 You define it as cult-like tendencies.

01:56:03.700 Joel, if you're feeling that struggle session feeling right now, by the way, that's just how we feel when you do the same thing.

01:56:09.620 So if you're not enjoying this label, I agree with you.

01:56:12.460 I do think it's stupid.

01:56:13.580 And let me define it.

01:56:14.420 But this is how we feel when you're throwing this stuff around.

01:56:17.460 When you look at everyone complaining about woke, what is the overarching argument?

01:56:22.920 There was a commercial by Jaguar.

01:56:26.200 And it was postmodern art, but nothing in it was ideological.

01:56:29.660 It was just goofy-looking people.

01:56:31.060 Yet it was called woke by everybody.

01:56:33.300 And so, well, it's certainly not Marxism.

01:56:35.520 These people just were bald with makeup on.

01:56:37.480 The issue was it was the social orthodoxy of the left.

01:56:40.740 It represented them.

01:56:41.820 So when people say woke, you will find the connection between all of these is that people are upset how the left acts like a cult.

01:56:49.580 They say, don't platform that person.

01:56:51.560 Don't let them go on your show.

01:56:53.020 You should be ashamed for that, things of that nature.

01:56:55.100 And if you've ever said something wrong in the past, we will condemn you for it.

01:56:59.140 I don't think it's that the left has acted like a cult.

01:57:01.100 I think it's—

01:57:01.700 It certainly has.

01:57:02.280 I think the people that—it has.

01:57:04.820 But I don't think that's the major problem people have with it.

01:57:08.040 The major problem people have with it is what the left stands for, the values that they represent.

01:57:11.820 Yet the overarching complaint, like I pointed out with the Jaguar commercial, had nothing to do with values.

01:57:16.900 It was aesthetic.

01:57:17.440 Oh, it totally had to do with values.

01:57:19.140 It was postmodern art.

01:57:20.040 It was a visual representation of all their values.

01:57:22.260 All values are aesthetic.

01:57:23.600 Hating the gender binary, hating beauty, you know—

01:57:27.740 It was just postmodern art.

01:57:29.220 It was—

01:57:30.160 That stuff's existed for a long time.

01:57:31.280 Jackson Pollock painting's been around for a long time.

01:57:32.960 It's a hodgepodge of garbled nonsense.

01:57:34.620 Right.

01:57:35.140 There was nothing articulated in it.

01:57:36.680 My point is—

01:57:37.180 It was rage against order, rage against God.

01:57:39.180 It represents the social order of the left.

01:57:41.680 Right.

01:57:41.940 And the values of the left.

01:57:42.900 And when you look—

01:57:43.640 The anti-God, anti-Christian values of the left.

01:57:45.360 Now, that's your particular view.

01:57:46.860 But when you then look at Hassan Piker, and he's called woke because he's defending blindly Ukraine as a component of their political party, that certainly isn't aligning with Marxist ideology.

01:57:55.300 And so the question then becomes, what is everyone identifying?

01:57:59.940 They're basically just saying woke is the social order of the left, and cancel culture was the representation of wokeness in that fall in line or else.

01:58:08.880 The forced promotion of Netflix making Mrs. Claus a black woman.

01:58:14.540 People saying these things are when they adhere to it for the sake of what the cult wants.

01:58:19.120 When we look at—there was a show that came out, and it's based in Chicago in like 1838, and people were pointing out one of the background scenes shows a black man and an Asian woman walking together in Chicago.

01:58:32.100 In fact, two different groups.

01:58:33.860 And they were like, that didn't exist back then.

01:58:36.360 But for the sake of their social order, they've begun doing these things.

01:58:39.660 Right.

01:58:39.740 So I look at this.

01:58:42.140 Woke represents typically this cult-like adherence to their orthodoxy, which is amorphous, because women sin one day, women with a Y the next day.

01:58:51.020 There's no real logic to it.

01:58:54.440 The only logic binding it together is anti-God.

01:59:01.020 They don't care what brand of anti-God it is.

01:59:03.420 It's just anti-God.

01:59:04.240 And that doesn't explain Ukraine.

01:59:08.720 What do you mean?

01:59:09.760 Why are people who are woke also pro-war in Ukraine, anti-Russia?

01:59:14.560 I mean, there are neocons that are pro-war.

01:59:17.240 It doesn't explain why Hassan Piker, who's not a neocon, is in favor of us intervening in Ukraine.

01:59:22.820 Right.

01:59:23.000 It's because it's just a cult where they adhere to whatever the whims of the murmuration says.

01:59:28.360 So when I see—

01:59:29.080 I think there's an element to that, yeah.

01:59:30.100 I think that's the overarching principle of what defines them, because their ideology changes every other day.

01:59:35.000 Well, I don't necessarily think that's true.

01:59:37.780 I think that—

01:59:38.360 It does.

01:59:38.600 You know, any movement that has values has to control for those values.

01:59:44.600 Hassan Piker—

01:59:44.860 You have to define who is in your movement and who is out.

01:59:47.520 Hassan Piker, in the same breath, said,

01:59:49.180 the military-industrial complex is bad and we shouldn't be funding these wars overseas.

01:59:53.060 He was reacting to a video of mine where I said, I agree with him on this stuff.

01:59:57.360 Then I said, and that's why I think it's absurd we've given $250 billion to Ukraine,

02:00:01.560 and Hassan turns on a dime and says, yo, this guy doesn't want us to intervene in Ukraine.

02:00:05.800 There's no logic there.

02:00:07.360 His movement makes no sense.

02:00:08.420 It's like there's a friend-enemy distinction, and you can reduce all political positions down.

02:00:15.280 Okay, let's talk about that.

02:00:17.280 My final point.

02:00:18.000 My final point.

02:00:18.880 When I see elements that consider themselves to be conservative or otherwise, as opposed to the woke left,

02:00:26.260 yet they use the same tactics of struggle sessions, false labeling, I'm like, oh, they're woke but right.

02:00:34.140 And then what happens is what I see from this faction of people that refer to Nick and everyone else's woke right,

02:00:40.080 it's amorphous and makes no sense.

02:00:41.880 In fact, not to invoke the name again, but James Lindsay has been bragging about how woke right is the same as saying the phrase alt-right,

02:00:51.080 a broad term intentionally used to malign individuals in the past as white supremacists and today as enemies of our movement.

02:00:58.620 He brags that's what y'all are doing.

02:01:00.240 Now, that might be true for you, but you certainly are working with him, and he's defined it.

02:01:04.140 The term woke right, I thought I had made it up, and it was an honest...

02:01:11.320 And of course, once I used it, I found that people had been using it already.

02:01:16.320 I was trying to describe something that I was seeing.

02:01:19.300 This wasn't postmodern word warfare or trying to define friend-enemy.

02:01:23.060 I was honestly trying to define something that I was seeing on the right, and it seemed to be the best description that I could come up with.

02:01:30.540 You know, not all of us are playing like these postmodern word games.

02:01:36.220 You know, I'm simply trying to describe truth.

02:01:38.720 When it comes to the right and the left, the cult-like mentality of the left, you know, I agree that there's a sense to where, you know, their worldviews aren't cohesive.

02:01:49.280 They don't make sense with each other.

02:01:51.060 You know, we see it with Palestine, you know, queers for Palestine, right?

02:01:54.180 Right.

02:01:54.320 They don't make sense.

02:01:55.360 What defines them as a common enemy, that common enemy is the West, and by extension, Christianity, and by extension, God.

02:02:03.540 That is the only thing that ties the entire left together.

02:02:07.320 It's apostates.

02:02:07.900 It is hatred of God.

02:02:09.460 It's Luciferian.

02:02:11.240 So Lucifer, you know, fell from heaven.

02:02:14.000 He said that I would, you know, in Paradise Lost, he said that I would rather rule in heaven than serve in heaven.

02:02:21.020 Rule in hell than serve in heaven.

02:02:23.120 And, you know, he said, I am going to define who I am.

02:02:26.380 I'm not going to let my creator define who I am.

02:02:29.260 But this is, again, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

02:02:31.840 And so my point is, everyone on the right who's looked at the woke left has said, this is what I see in it.

02:02:38.280 But that doesn't explain why they are opposed violently to apostates who are atheists.

02:02:45.080 Who is opposed?

02:02:46.500 Well, two examples, James Lindsay and Tim Pool.

02:02:49.320 Andy, no.

02:02:50.360 Actually, Andy, no, maybe a Christian.

02:02:51.600 But, and I'm not an atheist, but my point is, I was excised from the left.

02:02:57.380 And I was, I wouldn't consider myself agnostic.

02:03:00.540 I'm not Christian.

02:03:01.700 I was not espousing in 2016, 2015 when I worked at Fusion.

02:03:06.060 Yet they targeted me because I did not adhere to their cult.

02:03:11.340 And because I'm white.

02:03:12.820 You were following the Tao.

02:03:14.120 You were following the way of Christ.

02:03:15.540 I know you don't, whether or not you believe in it or are there religiously, you were in line with the moral law.

02:03:24.680 And that's what they hated about you.

02:03:25.920 I didn't do anything.

02:03:26.900 When I worked for Fusion, I was doing travel documentaries.

02:03:29.220 I went to Japan.

02:03:30.680 And they still, the people inside the company called me a white supremacist.

02:03:33.700 What was the thing that kicked it off for them?

02:03:35.740 Literally, I have no idea.

02:03:37.360 I was a Bernie Sanders supporter.

02:03:39.020 They called me a white supremacist for literally no reason.

02:03:41.860 Just because, I guess, I was, Hillary's bad.

02:03:44.760 I don't want to vote for her.

02:03:45.540 I'd vote for Bernie.

02:03:46.280 And they said, you're a white supremacist.

02:03:47.340 They just got the vibe that you just weren't in their cult, and the antibodies kind of did their work.

02:03:52.280 I wouldn't just say yes when they brought things up.

02:03:55.040 Yeah.

02:03:55.700 Yeah.

02:03:56.080 And there were other points where, a good example is, they made a video—

02:04:00.720 So you were thinking according to your lights, your conscience, right?

02:04:03.560 You weren't just following the cult.

02:04:06.060 You were following what God says the law that's written on all of our hearts.

02:04:09.280 I wouldn't even describe it that well.

02:04:10.780 I would say that in one meeting, when they said, we made a video about a transgender child, and it got 150,000 views, we should make more of this, my response was, it would do well among this community.

02:04:22.460 I think another thing that would do well would be content like this, and here's where it would do well.

02:04:26.400 And they said, that is not what we just said.

02:04:29.020 Yeah.

02:04:29.300 And I said, I didn't say you were wrong.

02:04:30.680 I didn't say that we should praise the Lord.

02:04:32.560 I said, we should consider doing travel documentaries.

02:04:34.820 And they went, shun the nonbeliever!

02:04:37.300 Yeah.

02:04:37.660 They said, you must be in line with our cult!

02:04:39.400 And I said, I think people—you know what I said?

02:04:41.820 You were following Christ, and you didn't realize it.

02:04:44.020 That's what you were doing.

02:04:45.060 But the argument that me saying we should do a documentary about a nuclear disaster has nothing to do with religion, politics, or otherwise.

02:04:51.880 No, no.

02:04:52.080 And I said—

02:04:52.400 But you were blocking them from what they were trying to do.

02:04:54.300 I didn't tell them not to do it!

02:04:55.480 Yeah.

02:04:56.120 I said, oh, cool.

02:04:57.860 Hey, why don't we do this one, too?

02:04:59.120 And they said, are you in line, or are you not in line?

02:05:01.900 Right.

02:05:02.240 And I wasn't not—it was not a question of God or otherwise.

02:05:04.820 The point is, if you oppose them, you are excised.

02:05:08.000 That is not strictly leftist woke—I mean, that is a woke right.

02:05:13.000 That is in Scripture.

02:05:14.260 You know, the Bible says, choose ye this day whom you will serve.

02:05:18.440 Who is on the Lord's side?

02:05:19.880 There is definitely—in Christianity, there is an in and there is an out.

02:05:24.600 On the right, among conservatives, there has to be an in or an out.

02:05:30.520 What defines us?

02:05:31.760 What do we believe?

02:05:33.420 Do you conform to that or do you not?

02:05:35.260 This isn't about, like, just forcing conformity or being a cult.

02:05:38.320 This is about defining what we stand for and controlling for that.

02:05:41.980 We don't just let anyone in our movement that doesn't adopt the values that we want

02:05:46.900 to put forward as a movement.

02:05:48.120 I mean, that's just common sense.

02:05:49.300 Let me do this.

02:05:50.000 That's not cultic.

02:05:50.500 We are over time, and we've got to do some final thoughts.

02:05:52.760 So my point is, when I look to what you and the others in your sphere represent, it's

02:05:59.080 moral hypocrisy.

02:06:00.600 When it serves my needs—you can disagree with me.

02:06:02.340 You're allowed to.

02:06:02.760 I'm just giving you my opinion and how I see you.

02:06:05.680 It is, when it suits my needs, I will utilize it.

02:06:08.820 If it doesn't suit my needs, I am opposed to it.

02:06:11.440 On our McIntyre side—

02:06:12.540 Absolutely not.

02:06:13.280 I mean, do you think that my brand, that the Bee's brand, has been helped by any of this?

02:06:19.920 We're suffering right now.

02:06:21.320 I'm saying—

02:06:22.040 And that has always been our approach.

02:06:24.520 This doesn't change anything about what I just said.

02:06:26.040 When we got kicked off—

02:06:26.900 This is not an argument to what I'm saying.

02:06:27.960 Well, you said that I choose something based off of whether it's a stand for me or not.

02:06:32.280 That's not the calculus that I'm using here.

02:06:35.660 I'm looking at Scripture.

02:06:37.340 I am looking at what God wants me to do.

02:06:39.600 I understand you've said all of these things.

02:06:41.040 Is this right or is this wrong?

02:06:42.320 Is the calculus.

02:06:43.160 And what I see, that is not what you are doing.

02:06:46.080 That is not reflected in your actions, your statements.

02:06:49.560 Then I think you're morally confused.

02:06:51.720 No, I would say that then when I look at someone like Aaron McIntyre, who explicitly states he understands these precepts and engages as such, I say, you can see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

02:07:00.080 When I look at you, it's 7, 3, 1, 8, 9.

02:07:02.420 And I'm like, he's not even counting.

02:07:03.500 The idea that you wouldn't recognize specific individuals destructive to your own movement.

02:07:09.660 The idea that you would align with people who are evil.

02:07:13.280 That might be a naivety.

02:07:14.820 That's not moral hypocrisy or evil.

02:07:17.100 Right.

02:07:17.280 My point is, whether intentional or through ignorance, you are not following the claims you're making.

02:07:22.660 You are doing quite literally what everyone does.

02:07:24.980 You are saying, if this benefits me, I'll adhere to it.

02:07:27.360 If it doesn't, I won't.

02:07:28.200 I'm literally doing things that don't benefit me.

02:07:30.620 I disagree.

02:07:31.320 That's what I've been doing for the last two years.

02:07:33.720 That is not—

02:07:34.940 Yeah, we've lost fans.

02:07:36.780 We're getting death threats.

02:07:39.120 You have a moral worldview you're following.

02:07:40.800 Our brand is hurting.

02:07:41.480 It's aligning with bad people.

02:07:42.200 My only concern, my only concern, with everything that I do, with everything that I say online, is I want to stand before God someday and for him to say, well done, good and faithful servant.

02:07:54.460 That's all I want.

02:07:55.600 And to those ends, you will align with evil.

02:07:58.160 No.

02:07:58.900 What are you talking about?

02:07:59.380 You will.

02:07:59.720 You said you would.

02:08:01.540 In what way?

02:08:02.760 Varying degrees of evil, be it lower end like Trump or higher end like Dave Rubin.

02:08:06.980 No, I will never unite with evil.

02:08:09.980 You're talking about people.

02:08:10.580 You will use evil to your ends.

02:08:12.340 No, no.

02:08:13.820 Okay.

02:08:14.800 There's a difference between uniting with an evil person, which all of us are different, varying degrees of evil, and uniting with evil.

02:08:22.560 Okay?

02:08:23.560 The Bible says, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

02:08:28.600 Again, I understand your arguments on all these points.

02:08:30.340 Part of my criticism of what you are doing, Aaron, with no enemies to the right, is it is fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness for the sake of political expediency.

02:08:39.580 I just see you as the exact same thing.

02:08:42.300 You are identical and incapable of seeing that.

02:08:45.700 Then I think you have—I think your moral compass is a little bit skewed there.

02:08:50.900 That's not an argument.

02:08:51.940 I just—

02:08:52.780 That is not an argument.

02:08:54.160 Okay.

02:08:54.380 Explain to me again how I am uniting with evil.

02:08:58.700 No enemies to the right.

02:08:59.540 That's what you said.

02:08:59.960 No enemies to the right.

02:09:01.560 I don't subscribe to no enemies to the right.

02:09:04.240 But are there enemies to the left?

02:09:05.860 Yes.

02:09:06.420 Some of them you're willing to work with.

02:09:08.880 Enemies to the left?

02:09:09.900 Some of the—there are people on the left who are destructive to your worldview, but you will work with them if it benefits you.

02:09:15.300 If it benefits me.

02:09:16.540 And your worldview and your movement.

02:09:17.740 I won't work with somebody on the left, no.

02:09:20.540 James Lindsay's not on the left?

02:09:21.640 I don't agree that James Lindsay is on the left.

02:09:23.460 He's a progressive.

02:09:24.760 I don't agree with that.

02:09:26.380 See, this is the point.

02:09:27.780 Instead of just saying, certainly there are—like, Orrin will tell you outright, I will work with these people I disagree with.

02:09:33.460 You're saying, that's not true, they're not on the left.

02:09:35.240 James Lindsay is further left than me, but I do not consider him a leftist at all, no.

02:09:39.560 And so what you are doing, and I will tell you this again, because I could be wrong about everything, that's always allowed.

02:09:44.300 From my perspective, I see a man who says, I am unfalsifiable because I will simply describe things differently to protect my ideology.

02:09:51.620 I see you the same way.

02:09:53.700 He says, no enemies to the right, and you say, that's bad, but all in line with bad people.

02:09:59.520 What's the difference?

02:10:00.200 Do you see the difference between uniting with someone, uniting with a bad person or a sinner for a good cause—

02:10:10.420 That's an extreme, and we're not talking about that.

02:10:12.260 The willingness to work—

02:10:14.040 Do you see the difference between uniting with a sinner for a good cause and uniting—

02:10:16.200 That is not what we are talking about.

02:10:17.460 It's a sophistry.

02:10:18.640 No.

02:10:19.040 If you want to take it to an extreme, which is not an argument someone is making, then we're not having a conversation.

02:10:24.380 If the point being made by Orrin and other people on the right is,

02:10:26.860 I'm not going to go to war with Nick Fuentes because the left is substantially more evil,

02:10:30.740 and your argument is, I will work with progressives.

02:10:33.300 They're not really progressives anyway, but Nick is more evil.

02:10:36.080 You are doing the same thing.

02:10:39.600 Orrin, do you think James Lindsay is bad?

02:10:41.780 Yeah.

02:10:42.040 Yes or no?

02:10:42.340 Okay, you don't.

02:10:43.600 Do you think Nick Fuentes is bad?

02:10:45.220 Yeah.

02:10:45.580 Would you work with him?

02:10:46.660 I mean, it depends to—

02:10:48.840 To a certain end.

02:10:50.000 Is he as bad as the left?

02:10:52.060 He's not trying to kill me.

02:10:53.440 Okay.

02:10:53.720 So he has that going for him.

02:10:54.540 I see a man who says—

02:10:56.380 Do you think James Lindsay is trying to kill you?

02:10:57.660 I think James Lindsay is destroying your movement.

02:10:58.960 We can have another conversation off air.

02:11:00.280 There's different kinds and different degrees.

02:11:01.760 My point is, you will make excuses for making enemies with bad people,

02:11:06.160 and you can certainly argue Nick is worse than James,

02:11:08.480 and I see two people that are willing to work with different groups

02:11:11.840 that each side of the right will deem evil or otherwise.

02:11:15.100 The only difference is Orrin is admitting to it, and you are pretending it's not true.

02:11:20.560 Okay.

02:11:21.000 Dave Rubin hired a woman to birth children, he gave her money,

02:11:27.000 and now he has full custody of those children.

02:11:29.220 I'm trying to be very delicate.

02:11:30.240 Benjamin Franklin slept with French prostitutes.

02:11:32.200 I do like Dave, and Dave has been very good to me,

02:11:34.800 but I think it's important to point out that in this regard,

02:11:37.500 this is viewed by Christians, people on the right, in general,

02:11:40.680 as one of the most abhorrent things a human being can do.

02:11:43.560 Right.

02:11:43.700 Paying a woman to birth children and then taking those children from her is buying those children.

02:11:49.260 There are many people who are going to say your willingness to align in any capacity,

02:11:54.520 I'm not saying go to conventions or whatever, but to view as an ally,

02:11:57.640 an individual who has done such a thing, is far beyond anything Nick has ever done.

02:12:01.560 And by all means, if you want to point out, here's where we draw more lines,

02:12:05.420 here's my issue, totally fine.

02:12:06.980 Again, I see Orrin as saying, I'm willing to accept these truths,

02:12:09.820 and you making excuses as to why it's not the case in your capacity.

02:12:12.760 Okay, I'll try to say this again.

02:12:15.840 There's a difference between uniting with someone who is a sinner,

02:12:19.460 who has done bad things in his personal life for a good cause,

02:12:22.300 and uniting with a good person, or someone who believes all the right things on paper,

02:12:28.980 for an evil cause.

02:12:30.360 And that's the way I see this.

02:12:32.060 I think Nick represents an evil movement and an evil cause,

02:12:35.600 regardless of how he behaves in his personal life.

02:12:38.420 Dave Rubin, I don't know enough about his politics, I've never really interacted with him.

02:12:42.160 But he doesn't receive the ire of your faction of conservatives the way Nick does.

02:12:46.220 If Dave Rubin was a constitutional conservative who cares about American freedom

02:12:50.320 and preserving the Constitution, I will unite with him for that cause,

02:12:55.020 in spite of what I do.

02:12:57.480 So you can unite with Nick on specific issues that you agree with him on?

02:13:02.100 I don't see anything I agree with him.

02:13:04.180 You don't agree with him that there's anti-white bigotry?

02:13:06.420 Okay, yeah, I do.

02:13:07.520 Okay, that seems like an easy one.

02:13:09.700 So you can unite with him on that front then?

02:13:11.460 And you guys can come together and...

02:13:13.240 That we should do mass deportations?

02:13:15.160 If you consider saying the same things as him uniting with him, then yes.

02:13:19.600 But I don't...

02:13:20.120 Nobody's here to do it.

02:13:21.260 What do you expect?

02:13:22.240 Do you think we're putting him in your backpack, that you're just going home for dinner?

02:13:25.940 No one's here saying like,

02:13:27.320 hey man, you gotta go have beers with Nick.

02:13:29.200 You have to, you know, you need to go...

02:13:31.920 Just saying, the people who are trying to kill us are the enemy right now.

02:13:35.400 I'll put it like this.

02:13:36.320 So let's actually focus on them, and then we can come back around and be like,

02:13:38.780 maybe this guy isn't saying the things we want him to say.

02:13:40.440 We do gotta wrap, so I'll just say one more thing, and then I'll let whoever wants the

02:13:43.580 last word have the last word.

02:13:44.760 Megyn Kelly and Dave Rubin do content together all the time.

02:13:47.740 She does not lambast him over the issue that he hired a woman to birth children for him,

02:13:51.540 which he then took in exchange for money.

02:13:53.340 She does not get any flack from you over this.

02:13:56.200 I already explained this.

02:13:57.600 If Dave Rubin was out there, and he had a non-profit and a cause that we need to...

02:14:03.360 Again, it's all equivocation, and it's all this like, well, he didn't go quite far enough,

02:14:08.420 so therefore I don't...

02:14:08.600 No, it's not equivocation.

02:14:09.800 It's the difference between personal life and what you are standing for politically.

02:14:12.180 It's the difference between selecting what you want to punch on.

02:14:14.400 You're just picking what you want to punch on.

02:14:15.840 That's all I do.

02:14:16.300 No, it's not picking what I want to punch on.

02:14:17.600 To be honest about it.

02:14:18.700 It's not picking what I want to punch on.

02:14:20.260 Here's my view.

02:14:21.020 The Babylon Bee and the individuals in your periphery, people like Konstantin Kaisen trigonometry,

02:14:25.600 I think you guys do great work.

02:14:27.100 I'm a huge fan of the Bee.

02:14:28.000 But I think everybody is going to focus on the world that they're trying to create,

02:14:32.500 and they're willing to take whatever they can to get there.

02:14:35.540 There are some people...

02:14:36.400 However, what I see in this faction of accusing this out of being woke right is hypocrisy.

02:14:40.920 And again, this is the last thing I'm going to say.

02:14:42.480 So just let me finish this final thought, and then I'm done, and we can do final thoughts

02:14:45.340 because we're way over.

02:14:46.320 But it was fun.

02:14:46.780 It was fun.

02:14:47.540 Is this point about...

02:14:49.520 Dave Rubin has made numerous posts about surrogacy.

02:14:54.480 Has he?

02:14:55.220 Yes.

02:14:56.220 I haven't seen any of them.

02:14:57.960 You'd have to show them to me.

02:14:59.160 I suppose if you were focused on this issue the way Nick was, you'd maybe see the clips

02:15:02.260 and see the complaints about it, which is my point.

02:15:04.280 Megyn Kelly did not receive...

02:15:06.760 An article was written about Megyn Kelly with a pager blowing up and her paranoia around it.

02:15:10.980 It was deleted.

02:15:11.920 For some reason, an action was taken at the Babylon Bee that was deemed egregious against

02:15:15.600 Megyn Kelly, and it had to be deleted.

02:15:17.860 She has had conversations with Dave numerous times and never been criticized for him being a

02:15:21.520 gay married man and having surrogate children.

02:15:23.480 This means the issue isn't that pressing nor as offensive to you as Nick is, and that's

02:15:28.380 fine.

02:15:28.680 That was always allowed.

02:15:29.920 However, my point then is there are individuals in whatever faction that are unwilling to

02:15:36.080 admit they overlook certain trespasses if they believe that there are actions being taken

02:15:41.000 that benefit them in the long run.

02:15:42.320 That's my view of these things.

02:15:43.480 I just see Ahren and these individuals on this side admitting it outright, and Matt Walsh,

02:15:49.440 for instance, and I see the side accusing others of being woke right, of refusing to

02:15:52.420 accept what they themselves are doing.

02:15:53.820 Okay, so do you see the difference between someone like Dave Rubin, or you could talk about

02:15:59.280 any other gay conservative, right, who is gay in their personal life, versus a leftist who

02:16:05.700 espouses gay ideology, gender ideology, who is pushing it, who makes it a flagship, a part

02:16:17.160 of their cause.

02:16:17.740 Those are the people that I've always openly resisted and openly fought against, right?

02:16:24.060 And if someone like Rubin were to join in with that, I would resist him just like I would

02:16:28.960 anybody else.

02:16:30.240 Will you advocate against surrogacy?

02:16:32.600 Absolutely.

02:16:33.440 Will you condemn surrogacy?

02:16:35.120 Yes, and I have.

02:16:36.240 Have you not seen my Twitter account?

02:16:37.640 My Twitter feed is full of—we've written Babylon Bee jokes about it, about gay people

02:16:42.600 picking—

02:16:43.220 The way about Megyn Kelly nearly being murdered, you've written something like that about Dave

02:16:47.100 having these kids?

02:16:48.260 What?

02:16:49.140 No.

02:16:49.420 This is the point.

02:16:49.980 It doesn't matter if Dave is right or wrong or Megyn's right or wrong.

02:16:51.760 The point is, there's a clear focus to your intent.

02:16:54.260 And I don't know—and that's it.

02:16:55.720 Like, okay, anyway.

02:16:56.600 My focus is preserving American liberty.

02:16:58.860 You know, that's my focus.

02:17:00.720 You know, Nick doesn't represent that, and so I won't unite with him.

02:17:06.180 I think that's fair.

02:17:07.460 So, something we didn't get to do here enough, which hopefully maybe we can later, because

02:17:13.560 I think it would be far more productive.

02:17:14.940 The personalities, all that stuff, I think—

02:17:17.500 Red herring.

02:17:18.120 It gets us stuck in, you said this, we did that, but the more important thing is I would

02:17:24.140 like you to take the time to look at actual critiques of kind of where the conservative

02:17:30.300 movement is.

02:17:31.340 I don't think we're far off on the ends that we want.

02:17:35.120 I think the difference is that I believe we are in a different time and space than

02:17:39.760 you do, and that the path back to what we want is not available the way that you are

02:17:45.720 espousing it, not because I don't agree with these ends, but because mechanically there's

02:17:51.140 a poor understanding of how politics works, how dialectics works, how democracy works that

02:17:57.620 is not being addressed here.

02:17:59.100 This is what I go after.

02:18:00.600 And Yarvin, Land, Schmidt, yeah, we've mentioned all these people, but what we didn't talk

02:18:05.460 about was Demaistra.

02:18:06.780 We didn't talk about a lot of Christian thinkers that I draw on to talk about these exact same

02:18:14.780 issues.

02:18:15.880 And when you exclude those, then you're only picking certain aspects of the point.

02:18:22.980 Ultimately, I think that this is a collection of thinkers that helps us to look at the situation

02:18:27.740 we're in and find solutions, even though I radically disagree on, like, Yarvin, he's

02:18:33.680 an atheist who doesn't see Christianity as central.

02:18:38.000 Do you agree with him on feudalism?

02:18:39.700 What do you mean on feudalism?

02:18:41.520 He doesn't agree with feudalism.

02:18:42.820 I mean, he kind of has this.

02:18:44.120 We got to wrap.

02:18:45.420 Oh, okay.

02:18:45.740 Sorry, guys.

02:18:46.220 We're 17 minutes over.

02:18:46.640 It was just getting interesting, Warren.

02:18:47.400 But this is what I actually wanted to talk about and not James Lindsay, yes.

02:18:51.720 Oh, my gosh.

02:18:52.900 That's all right.

02:18:53.680 Anyway.

02:18:53.900 You know, okay, I think there is so much confusion that can be kind of inserted into

02:19:02.900 a situation when you bring up personalities and, you know, conflating two different things.

02:19:09.060 I guess I'll just kind of reiterate my point that, you know, I think that ultimately, I

02:19:14.840 do think there's a way back.

02:19:16.020 I think that our hope is in Christ and in Christianity, not an empty tradition, ritual, government-sponsored

02:19:21.180 religion, but real devoted, actual Christianity, the kind that we saw at Charlie Kirk's funeral.

02:19:27.840 I think that there is hope.

02:19:29.420 I think there's no reason to blackpill.

02:19:31.840 And I think that, here's the thing, we get so tied up in strategy and tactics, I think

02:19:36.960 it really is as simple as be in God's Word, try to understand the truth to the best of

02:19:43.640 your ability, try to speak the truth to the best of your ability, and refuse to budge.

02:19:49.840 Refuse to budge.

02:19:50.860 And if enough people are courageous to stand in what's right and to stand in the truth,

02:19:56.920 then we'll win this.

02:19:58.060 That's what I'll say.

02:19:58.340 Where can people find you?

02:19:59.380 Find me on Babylon Bee.

02:20:00.360 You can find me on Twitter.

02:20:01.080 Joel W.

02:20:01.500 Barry.

02:20:02.500 I think this is the populist delusion.

02:20:04.480 I don't think that we reach some critical mass and then all of a sudden, no, you have to

02:20:08.520 have effective leadership.

02:20:09.700 You have to have effective elites.

02:20:10.760 Political opinion is driven by elites, and you have to have a strategy for how to deploy

02:20:15.840 these things.

02:20:16.520 You can do that as a Christian.

02:20:18.180 You can do that as someone who is believing in a biblical worldview.

02:20:21.480 There's nothing evil or wrong with looking to use power in the way that will glorify

02:20:25.980 God and bring your society closer to Him.

02:20:29.200 And just because you propose that doesn't mean you're throwing away the Constitution.

02:20:32.340 I think we meet a much better definition of what liberty means, because I think we're using

02:20:37.320 it too loosely.

02:20:38.020 And just saying liberty, I'm sorry, but James Lindsay does not believe in the type of liberty

02:20:42.040 that Christian founders believed in.

02:20:44.460 Those are not the same two things.

02:20:45.820 And when you pretend that they are, you're conflating them on purpose to draw sides that

02:20:49.160 don't exist.

02:20:49.920 You need to drill down to these issues.

02:20:51.540 That said, I'm Orrin McIntyre.

02:20:53.380 You can find me on the place.

02:20:54.920 So actually, we're going to begin the backstage pass for Timcast Discord members.

02:21:01.500 And that means while we're setting up Timcast IRL, we'll be hanging out in the studio.

02:21:05.620 The conversation is going to continue as it always does, and your opportunity to listen

02:21:09.000 will be go to Timcast.com, click join us, get in the Discord.

02:21:12.840 And I have a lot to say on more private political matters that relate to this space that I think

02:21:18.600 is prescient, but we're out of time.

02:21:20.540 Thanks for hanging out, and we will see you all in the backstage pass.

02:21:22.980 Let's start.

The Culture War - Tim Pool - November 21, 2025

MAGA Civil War, Identity Politics, Christianity, & the Woke Right DEBATE ｜ Joel Berry vs Auron MacIntyre

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript