The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #18 - Emma Vigeland & Sean Fitzgerald, Debating Crime And Social Issues

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00:00:59.300 I'm back!

00:01:04.400 First thing I want to say is thank you to Jack Posobiec and Seamus Coughlin for guest hosting

00:01:09.820 TimCast IRL while I was out. I wasn't not, in fact, dead. I just lost my voice, and that really

00:01:15.660 sucked. I think on Sunday I was kind of sick, and it sucked, so I just hung out and was playing video

00:01:19.880 games all day. But then Monday I was talking like this, and then I figured I'd be fine by Tuesday,

00:01:24.660 and then come Wednesday morning when I still couldn't talk, we were like, we need to call in the

00:01:28.600 big guns. So we reached out to some people to see if they would guest host for us,

00:01:31.160 and we got some people. We got Jack and Seamus, so thank you all for that. This is the first

00:01:35.800 The Culture War podcast we're doing live as we're now getting into the purpose for what this show is.

00:01:43.080 When we do shows on TimCast IRL at 8 or so PM, we'll often have people come in who are either

00:01:50.600 disagree with us on certain issues, or that's primarily it. When they do, the show transforms

00:01:56.280 from topical news into political and cultural debate. And so we decided we need to make a

00:02:01.400 specific show that just handles those conversations and expands upon them so that we can actually get

00:02:06.500 to the core of what people think, feel, why they want certain policies, and why they don't.

00:02:10.840 And a topical news show doesn't really work for that, so Friday mornings, you know, here's what

00:02:15.780 we're going to do. And we were posting this at 1 PM before, but now we'll probably end up doing it live

00:02:20.540 just because. So without further ado, without wasting any of your time, we've got two awesome

00:02:25.640 guests. Sean, do you want to introduce yourself first? Oh, I'm Sean Fitzgerald. I do YouTube at

00:02:30.740 The Actual Justice Warrior. I cover primarily criminal justice-related issues, and I'm happy

00:02:34.880 to be here for your maiden live voyage of The Culture War. And Emma, would you like to introduce

00:02:39.720 yourself? Yeah, I'm Emma Vigeland. I'm the co-host of The Majority Report. Thanks so much, Tim,

00:02:43.680 for having me on. I know that it was a little dicey with you and Sam in terms of him coming on,

00:02:51.040 but I'm happy that you had me on. Absolutely. I'm glad you came. Yeah. And I just want to clear

00:02:56.920 this up because I know that, you know, you didn't want to have Sam on because you called him a grifter,

00:03:01.540 right? And part of the reason that you called him that is because you said that, you know,

00:03:05.740 we put your song through a filter on our show. And I just want you to know, I was hosting that day.

00:03:10.940 We don't have the technology to do that. So I did not do that. So there you go.

00:03:15.480 Yeah, it was like, so that specific issue was the song we put out, played on your show,

00:03:21.960 had like the mids ripped out of it. We don't have the technological ability to do that. We're

00:03:26.520 just a bunch of leftists in with like a soundboard. I promise you nothing was intentional. You don't

00:03:32.200 have audacity? It's free. Well, no, the issue here is likely that- I don't really know. I don't

00:03:36.000 know anything about- If you don't have proper ingestion, then like the audio is going through a

00:03:40.860 TV or something, it's going to sound really bad. Right. So if we were to like play music on the

00:03:45.520 TV and then put the mics up to it, everything would be ripped out from it. And then if we were

00:03:49.900 to say, listen, how bad this sounds, it's misleading the average person. Right. Thinking that that's

00:03:55.040 what the song sounds like when it doesn't. But I played that. And look, I mean, we're here to have

00:03:58.840 a great discussion, I think. But it's interesting that even though I played it, that was your

00:04:03.960 justification for calling Sam a grifter. It's not though. The issue with Sam was that

00:04:07.800 I put out a tweet where I said, we try to invite people on the left all the time. They

00:04:12.660 always say no. And then Sam tweeted, challenge accepted or something to that effect, like

00:04:16.840 I'll come on. And I was like, oh, this is great. Because Sam was actually the first person

00:04:20.820 to ever shout me out ever in my career. Yeah. Praising me. And so I said, we will cover travel

00:04:26.140 accommodation. We'll fly you out. We'll take care of everything. Let me know what day works

00:04:29.280 for you. And he said something like the 13th. And I was like, this is fantastic. And then

00:04:33.040 he DMed me and was like, I'm not coming on your show. And I was like-

00:04:35.680 Yeah. It was because of COVID restrictions. I've seen the DMs. I told him he should put

00:04:38.680 it on. I've told him he should put it on Twitter, but he's too good of a guy. I mean, maybe

00:04:42.300 he will just to clarify. Well, no, I published all the DMs because then what he did was he

00:04:46.700 then, it's mostly water under the bridge, but he made some comment about me backing out

00:04:52.560 or something. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then I messaged him. I was

00:04:56.240 like, are you kidding, dude? We're going to pay for everything. And then he was just like,

00:04:59.680 no, I'm not doing it. Are you crazy? Well, then just do it like, I mean, I'm sure he'd be

00:05:02.480 down to come down soon and you guys could actually hash it out.

00:05:06.020 Well, the issue has expanded more than that. I mean, so at the same time, there was Hassan

00:05:11.520 Piker who also responded to my tweet and he said, I'd love to come. And I said, when can

00:05:17.000 you come? And he said, let's figure out a date. And so I DMed him and he said, I got

00:05:20.360 to be honest. I'm actually concerned about COVID. And I said, totally get it. No worries,

00:05:24.580 man. Thanks for reaching out. And that was the end of it. Sam, however, used it on like a

00:05:28.900 video and then started tweeting about it because it was drumming up a whole bunch of clicks

00:05:32.420 and views. And I'm like, okay, dude, I get it. Interacting with this guy is just going

00:05:36.940 to create drama that he uses to get clicks. I mean, the dude's got like 170 videos about

00:05:40.920 Dave Rubin.

00:05:41.800 Yeah, we do cover that. I mean, I think part of what we do is we try to respond to some

00:05:48.400 of the right wing ecosystem on the internet because there's a vacuum truly left. You guys

00:05:54.300 have a lot more money than the left wing media space. We just try to combat it a little

00:05:58.440 bit.

00:05:59.220 I think the issue with that, I can understand why you'd say that, but it looks like this is a great

00:06:03.940 way to kick off the show, actually, like the start of the culture. I actually don't think the

00:06:09.100 whatever this space has more money because this is a fractured independent space of varying

00:06:13.560 ideologies.

00:06:14.980 Tim, I'm in your compound right now.

00:06:17.000 Yeah, I'm rich.

00:06:17.960 I live in a one bedroom. I mean, how did you get rich?

00:06:20.580 I started a website, took memberships, sold ads on videos.

00:06:24.120 Yeah. But the reason that you get ads and that we don't is because you more adequately

00:06:30.260 serve capitalism and we challenge it.

00:06:32.760 I get we got our ads pulled. What do you mean? There's there's whole organizations dedicated

00:06:35.820 to getting all of our ads removed.

00:06:37.980 Right. But the proof is in the pudding and where I'm sitting right now.

00:06:40.900 So so this is memberships. This is almost entirely because people pay to become members

00:06:45.900 of websites. You know, if if the majority report that you guys have been around a lot longer

00:06:51.220 than I have, the inability to provide a product to a customer does not mean that one political

00:06:59.340 faction has more or is granted more because of capitalism or anything like that. Like if Sam

00:07:04.300 is unable to I mean, Sam said way more subscribers than me for a long, long time.

00:07:08.200 Right. Right.

00:07:08.740 And he's been and he just like I'm not saying this to be like me. I'm saying if he doesn't

00:07:14.860 know how to turn revenue, the issue is more so you need like a COO or somebody who's going

00:07:20.920 to say, here's how we provide something to a market that generates revenue so we can expand

00:07:25.560 our business. So we're we're better at that here, I suppose, is the easy way to put it.

00:07:30.080 Well, no, because what you say here is more attractive to investors and advertisers.

00:07:34.760 I mean, we're basically only members and OK, well, other right wing media like the Daily

00:07:39.240 Wire and stuff like that. And even what I'm looking at the Rumble, what I don't know, what

00:07:45.020 do you call that logo right there? Looks like a rectangle.

00:07:48.440 Yeah. I mean, that's a that's a David Sachs. That's a venture capital backed venture, I

00:07:52.940 believe. At the very least, Peter Thiel is involved and invested. There's no equivalent

00:07:57.800 on the left.

00:07:58.440 Why would you be able to get advertisers if like David Pacman and the Young Turks have advertisers?

00:08:02.960 Your content's not like we do have advertisers. We just have, you know, advertisers that are

00:08:08.100 a little bit more within our system of values. And we're trying to combat corporate greed.

00:08:14.540 We don't have a ton of advertisers that I think align with leftist or we have advertisers that

00:08:22.180 we try to include in terms of like leftist values as well. But just by the nature of left

00:08:28.420 versus right, it's asymmetrical warfare. But honestly, you're passing on advertisers that

00:08:34.800 don't align with your values. So like you have we do the same thing. We do literally

00:08:38.780 say we have like four advertisers. Right.

00:08:40.780 Four. Right. OK.

00:08:41.900 So our website has no advertisers and it's almost entirely membership funded.

00:08:46.360 Yeah. I mean, look, everything here is because people give us 10 bucks a month.

00:08:49.320 We're really trying to cover politics on our program. And I think that that's what

00:08:53.200 is like our central focus. I mean, why make a video about me and music?

00:08:57.700 Well, I mean, it was a little fun because it was kind of funny. But I mean, Sam comes

00:09:01.400 from a comedy background as well. I would say that I think you misrepresent what our show

00:09:06.380 actually does. The first hour, the free hour of our program before we go to the membership

00:09:11.120 portion is one that we literally have experts on on Social Security, on international politics.

00:09:18.360 It's not honestly something that is conducive to it's it's dry. It's not conducive necessarily

00:09:26.060 to a ton of capital investment or advertisers. And we're trying to make a difference in the

00:09:30.960 world. We don't have investment or we have like four advertisers. Actually, we have zero

00:09:34.740 advertising. We got rid of them all. So we ended all of our advertisers. To be fair, on the podcast

00:09:40.440 version of things, I think we have like six on YouTube side of things. We've actually gotten

00:09:44.800 rid of all advertisements. So it now it's just like whatever YouTube does, they do. Right. And

00:09:50.220 then we started we're starting our own companies. The reason we start we started our own coffee

00:09:53.640 company. It's because I'm not going to say the name of this person, but there are organizations

00:09:58.500 that lie in order to get our ads pulled. And so that's happened to us. One example is that there is

00:10:07.280 I don't get into too much of it, but there's a group that has argued that I have claimed

00:10:13.520 that Donald Trump won in 2020 and they've used that to raise tens of thousands of dollars.

00:10:18.900 OK, I never said Donald Trump won in 2020. In fact, since Joe Biden got inaugurated,

00:10:23.360 I said Trump lost and these people need to accept it. Right. Well, you said there might be a race war

00:10:28.060 that was that. When did I say that? I'm not sure. But you also said that. I don't think that's

00:10:33.180 true. The 10 year old who got an abortion, who was raped, you call that a hoax. Have you retracted

00:10:38.780 that statement? So there's very deep context to that. What we're talking about when I say hoax.

00:10:44.420 But that's been proven. I mean, the rapist has been charged and the doctor who provided the

00:10:49.320 abortion fine. So this is a really good example of the problem in the culture where I would say,

00:10:53.660 see, you don't you don't know what I actually said, because I didn't say what you're what

00:10:56.520 you're describing. You did. I just watched it last night. Right. And so what I said was

00:10:59.480 the fact that they politicized this to win a political point is the hoax, not that the child

00:11:06.480 was abused. How does that constitute a hoax, Tim? So like, let's say there's a what's a good

00:11:13.680 example of this? Ah, Ahmaud Arbery. Ahmaud Arbery is a really great example. Right. So here's a

00:11:20.520 here's no, I'm talking about this example, though. Right. I just brought up. So, right. If if if I

00:11:26.260 can't explain to you that manipulating a story for political gain is the hoax, then I don't know.

00:11:31.860 What's the manipulation? Oh, man, this is an old story. I have to pull it up. I think the

00:11:36.220 issue was that they were able to actually get the treatment in state. But because of

00:11:41.340 the law, they decided to seek it elsewhere. And I said, that is a hoax. I didn't say that

00:11:46.420 it was a hoax that the girl was abused. I said, if they could have sought treatment in

00:11:51.120 state under the exemption, I think it was Ohio, right? There was an exemption saying in the

00:11:54.660 cases of abuse, the treatments are permitted, but they decided to make a public statement

00:11:58.600 and leave the state. Anyway, I said, that is a hoax. It was not a public statement.

00:12:02.900 Oh, but that's my no rape and incest exemptions are non actionable. This is like well documented

00:12:09.140 with abortion activists. How long do you think it takes to prove a rape or incest case before

00:12:13.500 you're able to use that carve out? Well, I don't get an abortion. Doesn't it depend on

00:12:16.960 how the law is written? Do you have to prove it or does it have to be alleged? I mean, first

00:12:20.140 of all, let me just answer that point real quick so we can clarify the thing. Sure. I never said it

00:12:24.560 was a hoax that the girl was abused. OK, but I mean, but honestly, this is a part and parcel

00:12:29.100 of what you do is you put that kind of statement out there and then you put caveats in to protect

00:12:34.140 yourself. Like me saying that someone manipulating a story for political gain is a hoax. It's not a

00:12:39.460 manipulation. That is the kind of thing that's going to continue to happen as abortion restrictions

00:12:43.320 happen throughout the country. It's a particularly egregious example used to shine light on broader

00:12:49.840 restrictions on abortion in this country. I mean, it's an opinion, but you haven't retracted it.

00:12:54.680 It's false. It's not false. If there is a story and the story is exaggerated or manipulated in an

00:13:02.160 effort to sway people into believing one political faction over the other, you are engaging in a

00:13:07.820 hoax. I mean, isn't that what you guys do when you post like extreme videos of crime and things

00:13:13.380 like that? We don't do that. What are we talking about? I mean, you respond to videos that are taken

00:13:17.680 completely out of context, isolated instances. Like what? I don't think you watch the show because

00:13:22.100 that doesn't. I mean, I do a little bit. No, you don't. Cause we don't do that. Yeah. Yes,

00:13:26.100 you do. I, I, well, that's not true. Cause we don't do that. In fact, one of the points we make

00:13:30.000 specifically is subway crime to talk about all of these inflated crime numbers and crime is down

00:13:36.860 in New York city in 2020 by every metric. Down compared to what? Down compared to 2021.

00:13:42.620 Don't change the subject. You accused us of publishing videos we don't publish.

00:13:46.840 If it's down in 20 compared to 2021 and there was a giant year over year increase from 2020.

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00:15:15.360 on care. Did I mention that we care?

00:15:20.520 20 to 2021. Then you're talking about something. It wasn't giant. It was a small bump from the

00:15:25.580 47% increase in homicide in the city of New York is not a small bump. It was homicides are have been

00:15:32.420 on a precipitous decline since the 70s, since the 80s, since the 90s. There was a bump because of

00:15:38.800 desperation in the pandemic. And now it's back down in 2023. It's irrefutable. That's the NYPD's own

00:15:44.300 data. That's on all major crimes, murders, rapes, grand larcenies, robberies.

00:15:49.620 This is an argument I'm often confronted with, and it's actually pretty terrible. So crime is down

00:15:54.680 from the peak for sure. Right. In some years in New York City, we had 2,100 murders. I think that's

00:15:59.460 the largest ever in the history of the city of New York. However, my standard isn't, it's not as bad

00:16:04.720 as the worst time in the history of the city of New York. When I see murders jump year over year

00:16:09.980 from about 319 to 469. What do you mean year over year, the two years that I just listed?

00:16:15.360 Year over year, as in from 2020 to 2021, that would be a year over year increase. That is a dramatic

00:16:20.960 increase. And it's the largest since I believe 2010, the greatest year over year increase of all time

00:16:26.220 in the city of New York, by the way, but it's all the way back to 2010 numbers. It's down compared

00:16:31.520 to the increase, but it's not down compared to 2019. This was a once in a lifetime pandemic where

00:16:37.780 people's desperation and their mental health was severely harmed. People were out of work and

00:16:44.700 that kind of desperation leads to more crime. That's the reality of how crime works. Poverty leads

00:16:50.120 to crime. This is inaccurate. Why do you think 25 people got shoved in front of trains last year?

00:16:57.280 I don't know, dude. Well, that's a legitimate question. You're saying that you're saying poverty

00:17:02.400 and desperation results in crime. I'm wondering why it is that you've had these homeless guys

00:17:07.480 that have been predominantly, I think it's almost entirely these homeless guys, shoving people in

00:17:11.680 front of trains. Last year it was 25. And so that is... So that's a mental health problem. I mean,

00:17:16.580 we do have a mental health problem in this country. We have an issue with not having socialized

00:17:22.840 health care where people are unable to access health care, mental health care in particular,

00:17:27.720 but also every other kind of health care. I mean, 28 million uninsured people in this country.

00:17:32.220 That's a massive problem. I mean, what is your stance on Medicare for all and health care?

00:17:36.620 I'm for universal health care.

00:17:37.860 Oh, you are? Okay.

00:17:39.060 Yeah. I think we'd have to have some kind of like basic coverage for universal standard,

00:17:44.800 meaning like if you're having an episode, this is particularly where we bring you when we help

00:17:49.840 you. If you're broken bones, flu, things that it's like relatively simple and knowledge-based.

00:17:55.420 The challenge with it is that we got limited space, we got limited doctors, but I don't think we can

00:18:01.160 function as a society if we have people just dying in the streets like we do with drug abuse and

00:18:05.320 people losing their minds. Well, then you should promote housing first policies on your program.

00:18:09.640 Like in Houston, what they did, there was a pilot program under Obama. It was a HUD grant. And they

00:18:15.740 reduced homelessness by 63% over 10 years because they guaranteed housing. Do you think that the 25

00:18:24.440 examples that you cite last year, and there's like over 2 million subway riders a day. So you cherry

00:18:29.680 picking that, I feel like is- It's not cherry picking. You mentioned that desperation leads to

00:18:34.620 crime. Yeah. So I'm wondering why it is specifically that we saw this increase. Is it like someone's

00:18:40.480 desperate, but why murder somebody? You know what I mean? Well, I mean, they're experiencing a mental

00:18:44.700 health episode. We do not have adequate healthcare in this country, mental healthcare. I hear a lot of

00:18:50.100 talk often after mass shootings that mental health is the most important thing in this country. Then we

00:18:55.320 should have socialized healthcare so everyone can have access to it. And that paired with a housing

00:19:02.320 first policy where cities don't become urban centers for just bridge and tunnelers who want to come in

00:19:09.180 and see a show or for restaurant associations, places where people can actually live and there's

00:19:15.540 guaranteed housing for people. If we were able to do that, we would be able to drastically reduce

00:19:20.600 the crime that you guys are talking about.

00:19:22.660 So when you're talking about poverty leading to crime, like what is that based on? Because after

00:19:27.240 prohibition was repealed- All of human history.

00:19:29.080 During the Great Depression, crime fell. During the Great Recession, people with your line of

00:19:33.520 thinking thought we would see a crime spike nationwide. It didn't happen. You can actually

00:19:37.340 look at the crime wave if you wanted to pull it up. That didn't occur. And that was the largest

00:19:42.060 recession in the history of this country since the Great Depression. So what we've seen throughout

00:19:46.620 American history is poverty not leading to crime. What we actually see is the opposite,

00:19:51.660 that crime drives areas into poverty. We look at store closures across the country due to the fact

00:19:56.700 that we have shoplifting. That leads to decaying in the neighborhoods. When people abandon the

00:20:01.800 neighborhoods and you see this blight, that has a psychological impact on people and that drives

00:20:06.780 people to commit these crimes.

00:20:08.540 I mean, you're working backwards from the- No, you're actually working backwards.

00:20:12.080 Wait, wait, wait. But no, no. Poverty, clearly, this is a very simple concept,

00:20:15.680 leads to something like shoplifting. Why would someone shoplift based on a personal pathology?

00:20:20.440 They're shoplifting because they're desperate.

00:20:21.920 Not necessarily. So we have a lot of lax shoplifting laws in California, for example.

00:20:27.420 And what they find is we have a lot of organized retail theft because there's no consequences for

00:20:32.280 it. That's profit.

00:20:33.380 For instance-

00:20:34.320 People are trying to make money and they're desperate. We have untold levels of income

00:20:38.660 inequality in this country.

00:20:39.860 Well, is it income inequality or poverty?

00:20:41.380 Since the late 70s, 900%. That's the increase in CEO pay versus 12% for the working class in this

00:20:48.080 country. You don't think that that leads to levels of desperation?

00:20:51.880 So wait, wait. Is income inequality the cause or is poverty the cause? Because those are two

00:20:55.600 different things.

00:20:56.660 I mean, they go hand in hand.

00:20:58.500 They really don't.

00:20:59.440 Yes, they do. Because all the wealth is going towards the CEOs and to the billionaires in this

00:21:03.940 country.

00:21:04.340 But it's not a zero-sum economy.

00:21:05.720 But also, if income inequality is the driver of crime, then how come we saw a giant crime decline

00:21:13.220 after the mid-90s when income inequality was going up? In fact, we saw this happen all the

00:21:18.360 way to 2019.

00:21:19.740 Can you repeat that?

00:21:21.040 We had a giant crime decline from around 1995, 1996, nationwide, from all the way to 2019,

00:21:27.640 while income inequality was rising during that period of time.

00:21:31.260 Right.

00:21:31.560 So why would that occur if income inequality is driving crime?

00:21:35.720 I mean, I'm not exactly sure you're the expert, but I do know that you're saying that there

00:21:41.640 was an increase in crime in 2021 and 2022. And it doesn't matter now that it's going back down

00:21:46.980 to 2023 levels.

00:21:48.620 This is just New York City.

00:21:49.720 I can't see this. Yeah.

00:21:50.560 I just pulled up New York City.

00:21:51.500 Look at that. Right. Exactly.

00:21:52.760 So at the start of 1990, crime was at its highest and it dropped rather massively into just before

00:22:02.000 2000, where it continued to decline. And then from 2019 into 2020, we see a huge, a huge increase.

00:22:09.540 That's pre-pandemic. So there's a couple of interesting things to point out there.

00:22:13.260 No, to be clear, that's not, that's not pre-pandemic. That's the year over year increase.

00:22:17.380 So it would be in the year 2020, to be clear. So 2019 would be the low number.

00:22:21.480 The increase, actually, the draw is before 2020 meeting. That could be 2018 to 19 then,

00:22:26.800 if that's the point you're making.

00:22:27.900 No, no, it's, I've seen these numbers. I'm telling you, you're reading this chart wrong

00:22:31.320 because in New York City, do they have the raw number of homicides on the side?

00:22:35.620 If you track it, you have around, because this is just murders right here.

00:22:38.780 You have about 300 and then it jumps to about 469.

00:22:42.320 I mean, crime dropped everywhere throughout the country since lead gasoline was outlawed.

00:22:50.080 There is a massive connection, lead paint, lead gasoline, predominantly affecting

00:22:55.640 poor and lower income people, which probably did contribute to some of the increase in

00:23:01.920 volatility in that kind of instance.

00:23:03.580 I completely agree. I read that report. It was fascinating that when we started taking

00:23:06.480 lead out of the atmosphere, crime started to drop. But that would also make the argument that

00:23:11.480 it's not poverty driving crime. It was like chemical imbalance or something.

00:23:16.380 It's both. It's absolutely both.

00:23:18.500 Well, I think it would play a role, like the lead would play a role because it was in gasoline.

00:23:22.680 So it was in the air. Yeah. So it's impacting everyone.

00:23:25.520 It depresses brain function and things like that.

00:23:27.800 True. I think public policy has a huge impact as well, because again, we saw a dramatic crime.

00:23:32.940 The crime wave started in the 1960s, right? And this is when we started embracing this idea that

00:23:38.960 poverty was the root cause of crime, that this was more the realm of the social workers,

00:23:43.400 all things that sound really familiar to today. And from 1960, all the way to 1979,

00:23:49.660 the incarceration rate, even though in raw numbers, it was rising, was dropping per capita.

00:23:53.920 So we saw this crime increase and what you would end up getting in 1979 for murder,

00:23:59.620 on average, was something like five years. For rape, it was something like 3.4 years.

00:24:03.440 And obviously, like this created a problem because we just weren't prosecuting people.

00:24:08.620 This is why we ended up going with a mass incarceration solution, which, by the way,

00:24:12.300 did work. And all these other policies to get tough on crime. You laugh, but you're definitely wrong.

00:24:17.400 No, I mean, mass incarceration, we incarcerate more people than any other country.

00:24:22.200 We have the highest rate of violent crime for any modern Western country.

00:24:25.880 I mean, I don't have that statistic in front of me, but we still...

00:24:30.140 So how does that connect to the mass incarceration point? If it worked,

00:24:33.640 then what does the violent crime rate have to do with it? You just want to warehouse more people?

00:24:37.100 No, I didn't say... When I say it worked, we started expanding the prison population

00:24:41.680 seriously in the 1980s to the 1990s. If you go to the Brennan Center for Criminal Justice,

00:24:46.880 which is a left-wing organization, they say post the year 2000, mass incarceration lost its

00:24:53.040 effectiveness. But most of the mass incarceration was pre the year 2000. So obviously,

00:24:58.340 it had some impact and it ranges. Low estimates are about 6% on the crime rate, which is very low,

00:25:03.860 but the high estimates are about 30%. And the reason it worked is because the philosophy behind

00:25:08.160 mass incarceration is pretty simple. What you're trying to do is incapacitate criminals because

00:25:12.720 the same criminals are often re-offending. You brought up shoplifting earlier. You can actually

00:25:17.260 pull up an article to find out that the same 300 people in New York City represent a third of the

00:25:22.220 shoplifting arrests total for a single year. Probably because they're incredibly impoverished

00:25:27.200 and they need to find a way to actually sustain their livelihoods in this country.

00:25:32.680 But that's put a very good way. That's phrased very well, to maintain their livelihoods.

00:25:40.000 Well, no, I mean, no, their life is a better way to maintain it.

00:25:43.020 Sure, sure. But like, I guess my point is some of them certainly are desperate. But when you see

00:25:48.940 videos of a guy like shoveling stuff into a garbage bag, that's not desperation.

00:25:52.480 But again, this is what you do, Tim. You return to anecdotal examples when I'm trying to talk

00:25:57.820 about... We're talking about just the 300 people.

00:25:59.820 And I am talking about...

00:26:01.020 Which is the anecdotal evidence.

00:26:02.240 What 300 people?

00:26:03.360 He said the same 300 people that once committed the crime.

00:26:05.120 I said, right, these...

00:26:05.660 A third of the shoplifting arrests in New York City.

00:26:06.980 These specific individuals are doing it for profit.

00:26:08.260 Okay, so we should have a system of mass incarceration because there are 300...

00:26:11.440 I didn't say that.

00:26:12.300 I'm talking to you now. There are 300 repeat offenders?

00:26:15.760 No, no. We should incapacitate repeat offenders so they stop offending.

00:26:20.320 Got it. So this is all about the fact that you're not in favor of bail reform because

00:26:24.920 in New York State, which is now currently being rolled back, we decided that we weren't going

00:26:30.820 to require cash bail for nonviolent felonies and for misdemeanors. And you think that that's

00:26:36.020 a good policy?

00:26:37.160 To not require cash bail?

00:26:38.640 Yeah.

00:26:39.180 No.

00:26:39.820 I mean, or that we're rolling it back.

00:26:42.180 I think, look, if you're concerned about people not being able to get out of jail because

00:26:46.320 of their financial means, then I can understand reducing or even eliminating the cash bail

00:26:51.260 system. Because I understand if you don't have a lot of money, even though you really

00:26:54.400 only have to throw down 10% for bail in most cases, unless it's a set figure for the bond,

00:27:00.400 then I get that argument. But what you need, and the state of New York desperately

00:27:04.200 needs this, is some kind of threat assessment. Like you should be able to hold somebody if

00:27:09.780 they present themselves as a danger or repeat offender, regardless of bail, without bail,

00:27:15.360 so that they don't continue to re-offend.

00:27:17.140 Okay. But do you know what happens when people are held in Rikers, for example, in a

00:27:21.600 pre-detention center? How many deaths have happened there before they're even convicted

00:27:24.560 of a crime?

00:27:26.060 Again, that's an issue for how the jailing system works in New York City. And I'm in favor

00:27:31.180 of building out the jail capacity because-

00:27:33.420 You're talking about cash bail, though. That is exactly the point that we're discussing

00:27:38.440 here.

00:27:38.940 Yeah.

00:27:39.480 Right. So you're in favor of people being held before they're convicted of a crime

00:27:43.580 in Rikers.

00:27:44.980 If they show a propensity to re-offend, 100%.

00:27:47.940 What is a propensity to re-offend?

00:27:49.680 A history, like being arrested over and over again, prior convictions, yes.

00:27:53.720 So you think that they should be held in a prison that has been-

00:27:58.120 It's a jail, but yes.

00:27:59.060 Or jail, excuse me. A jail that has been proven to be one of the worst conditions in the country.

00:28:05.220 Well, it doesn't have to be specifically Rikers Island.

00:28:07.120 Suicides, dozens of deaths just this year, even if they haven't been committed of a crime.

00:28:11.180 Convicted of a crime.

00:28:12.000 Convicted of a crime.

00:28:12.620 Yeah, for sure.

00:28:13.700 But I think-

00:28:14.220 But that's very anti-constitutional and anti-democratic.

00:28:16.560 How is it anti-constitutional?

00:28:18.060 The Fourth Amendment. It violates the Fourth Amendment.

00:28:20.560 It protects you from illegal search and seizures.

00:28:22.480 Well, I mean, you are-

00:28:23.960 I think it's the right to a speedy trial.

00:28:25.760 People are held-

00:28:26.460 I'm sorry, Fifth Amendment, yes.

00:28:27.800 I do think we should have reform on the speedy trial side, but the idea that it's unconstitutional

00:28:32.660 to hold somebody pre-trial is ridiculous.

00:28:34.880 Our law is based on English common law.

00:28:37.040 Six. Damn.

00:28:38.100 Six, yeah.

00:28:38.880 We're all bad.

00:28:39.220 Our law is based on English common law, and the reason we have jails is that you would

00:28:43.520 actually be held in a dungeon awaiting trial.

00:28:46.500 So it's like built into the system. Bail is like a courtesy.

00:28:49.020 It's actually a progressive reform in response to that, where you lay down some kind of capital

00:28:53.540 in place of yourself.

00:28:55.140 How much money do you want to spend on jails in New York City?

00:28:57.980 As much as it takes.

00:28:59.220 So just warehousing people before they're convicted of anything.

00:29:02.280 Well, again, it's not warehousing everybody.

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00:30:28.780 Did I mention that we care?

00:30:32.280 Buddy, but if you have a propensity to reoffend, I think judges should be able to have judgment.

00:30:36.440 It's kind of in the name and assess these people and hold them.

00:30:39.920 So you just want to give it to the judgment of the judges and it does.

00:30:43.960 I would like the judges to have judgment.

00:30:45.600 Yes.

00:30:45.740 Okay, but there should be guardrails in place to prevent judges from, I mean, judges are

00:30:52.320 human beings.

00:30:53.040 They can be unjust as well.

00:30:54.840 I don't really put them on the pedestal that you do.

00:30:56.540 Obviously, I'm not in favor of like a million dollar bond for somebody who's arrested for

00:31:00.360 shoplifting, even if they're arrested 27 times.

00:31:02.720 So yeah, you can have guardrails from the legislature, but they can't assess dangerousness right now in the state of New York.

00:31:08.840 They assess it in ways.

00:31:10.300 The reason we put this law into place, which is now being rolled back, that were deemed inherently racist.

00:31:15.100 They deem that it was disproportionately black and brown people who are warehousing writers.

00:31:20.580 Okay, but how's that racist though?

00:31:21.780 Because at their discretion, it was implemented in a racist way.

00:31:26.680 But if you look at the crime statistics, they're disproportionately black and Hispanic.

00:31:30.700 So this is what the reality is for you, is you believe that black and Hispanic people inherently are committing more crimes.

00:31:36.420 When did I say inherently?

00:31:37.140 If you pull up like NYPD crime data, for instance, since you brought up stop and frisk, you can look at the shootings, like the shooting suspects in any given year.

00:31:46.620 And if you find me a year where 92% or greater is not black or Hispanic in terms of the shooting suspects, then I mean, I would be shocked because I've looked at it for the past 20 years.

00:31:59.340 So that's the cop's discretion.

00:32:00.520 No, no, you get a report and you get a description of the suspect and they are 92% every single year or above black or Hispanic.

00:32:10.800 Can I tell you guys a very famous New York story?

00:32:13.360 There was a black cop and he went to Central Park and started giving out tickets to white couples having picnics and drinking wine.

00:32:21.720 And he said public alcohol consumption is a crime in the city.

00:32:24.400 And he started giving these uppity yuppies tickets.

00:32:27.580 Right.

00:32:27.800 He got in serious trouble.

00:32:28.640 The reason he did it was because the cops would go into the black neighborhoods and give people drinking 40s on their stoops tickets.

00:32:34.660 And he said, how can how can these people at their own homes on their own porches get a ticket for drinking booze?

00:32:39.800 Then when I go into Central Park and say we're going to apply the same standard, I get in trouble for it.

00:32:44.560 So New York's got serious problems.

00:32:45.880 Even even Bloomberg like that guy's awful.

00:32:49.040 He made a he made a bunch of like I'm not going to say that the reason I just want to cut you off because you mentioned Bloomberg and I want to respond to what you said.

00:32:55.500 Under Bloomberg, 90 percent of the stop and frisks that were done were, by the way, they didn't find anything.

00:33:00.700 But 90 percent targeted black and brown people.

00:33:04.540 So it's you're taking the highest number, by the way, is 86 percent, not 90 percent.

00:33:10.100 You're taking the data.

00:33:11.240 You're taking the data and using what the cops did where they over police in certain areas and then pretending like there's an overrepresentation inherently criminally in those current kinds of populations.

00:33:23.580 And it's it's a racist argument.

00:33:25.880 So you're wrong in a bunch of different ways.

00:33:28.060 So let me just like run through them.

00:33:29.680 So first and foremost, the highest year was 86 percent.

00:33:32.380 And that was the year with the dramatic increase in stops.

00:33:34.520 And if you ask me if I'm in favor of just expanding stop and frisk, which is different from Giuliani's stop question and frisk, although, you know, you might not be interested in that specific difference to the levels that Bloomberg did.

00:33:45.260 I would say it's unnecessary.

00:33:46.720 It aggravates people, creates a whole bunch of problems.

00:33:48.760 That being said, they're not over targeted because, again, there is no year during the entire 10 year Bloomberg where the shooting suspects were any less than 92 percent.

00:33:59.820 So what the NYPD does, because it's the most data driven police force in the entire world, is they map crime through a system called Comstat.

00:34:06.980 When there's a lot of shootings in a specific area, they send the police to those areas.

00:34:11.080 The stops, questions and frisks all relate to where the shootings are.

00:34:16.420 And it just so happens to be those areas are black or Hispanic.

00:34:19.600 Right. But do you get accosted on the street by cops regularly in New York City?

00:34:24.300 It happened to me when I was younger.

00:34:25.660 Yes, but like not.

00:34:26.980 OK, but do you understand?

00:34:28.720 But to your point about hit rate, because you brought it up, hit rate was not the goal of stop question and frisk.

00:34:33.640 Like, this is one of the things where you're like, oh, well, this program didn't work because my standard that I look for arbitrarily shows that it was ineffective.

00:34:42.060 That's like saying a plane doesn't work because it's not a good submarine.

00:34:45.540 No, it's not arbitrary.

00:34:45.960 Like, that doesn't make any sense.

00:34:46.940 90 percent of the stop and frisk came up with nothing.

00:34:49.060 True. But the point was to deter the carrying of firearms.

00:34:52.420 Say, have you done illegal drugs in your life?

00:34:54.760 Maybe.

00:34:55.320 I just I have.

00:34:56.360 I have.

00:34:56.960 I could have been stopped and frisked and I could have gone to prison or I could have been held if I had a little bit less money.

00:35:03.640 In Rikers indefinitely until my trial came because a cop just decided, hey, I'm going to stop and frisk you.

00:35:10.060 But they wouldn't do that to me because I'm a white woman.

00:35:13.000 That's nice.

00:35:13.600 But anyway, it's about shooting.

00:35:14.920 I want to.

00:35:15.540 And the point of the program.

00:35:16.920 And this is shaded quite literally to deter people from carrying illegal firearms.

00:35:21.500 And I'm going to.

00:35:22.460 And I'm going to.

00:35:23.120 A hundred percent.

00:35:24.060 Are you in favor of gun control?

00:35:26.620 Hmm.

00:35:27.720 Is this what I'm trying to say?

00:35:29.220 I'm a New Yorker, so I'm not like a big gun guy.

00:35:31.940 But let me.

00:35:32.600 This is my point where.

00:35:34.060 We've got to target guns.

00:35:34.980 And that's why stop and frisk.

00:35:35.840 Yeah, you definitely got to target illegal guns for sure.

00:35:37.900 I'm going to agree with Emma, but Emma's not going to agree with me.

00:35:39.600 The idea that the police can decide to arbitrarily stop people because they might be carrying a firearm violates the Second and Fourth Amendments.

00:35:47.620 Stop and frisk is completely unconstitutional.

00:35:49.560 That's why Fourth Amendment was in my mind.

00:35:51.280 Well, again, it's it's you're supposed to stop question and frisk.

00:35:54.680 And usually it's based on reasonable suspicion.

00:35:56.860 And they're supposed to be bearing arms.

00:35:58.400 There's supposed to they're supposed to follow the Terry standard.

00:36:01.780 I they this idea that because a particular particular group of people may be carrying guns.

00:36:08.380 We're going to go start stopping a whole bunch of them.

00:36:10.060 I'm like the Constitution protects our right to keep and bear arms in the first place.

00:36:13.620 So now you're violating using the second you're ignoring the Second Amendment and using that as and and by ignoring it now you're violating the Fourth Amendment.

00:36:21.740 I mean, this is absolutely this is why I'm actually critical of Bloomberg expansion of the program, because the way it used to work is that if you had a shooting suspect, you would have a description.

00:36:31.420 You'd send cops to the area and they would stop people with that description, ask them questions.

00:36:35.800 And if there was reasonable suspicion, they would conduct a search.

00:36:39.220 This is why under Giuliani, the maximum amount of stops in a year and, you know, New York City of eight point five million people was 90,000 people.

00:36:46.760 And under Bloomberg, it was something like 700,000, maybe 800,000 people.

00:36:50.860 So he he dramatically expanded the program to the point where I do think it was constitutionally violative.

00:36:57.640 So you are kind of to the right of Donald Trump on this, who has been releasing nonviolent offenders.

00:37:03.840 Yeah, I know Donald Trump's first step back is absolutely terrible.

00:37:06.500 It sets up a bunch of incentives.

00:37:08.480 Well, I mean, you're further right than I'd imagine a ton of this audience is.

00:37:12.920 I mean, that's fine.

00:37:13.820 That's like I'm not here to I'm not here to win over the audience.

00:37:16.920 Well, I will win over the audience because I'm correct.

00:37:18.920 But no, this is mostly moderate.

00:37:20.480 Yeah, but Donald Donald Trump's first step back had a lot of language about going soft on youthful offenders.

00:37:25.580 And that's one of the reason why a huge portion of the increase in homicide that we're seeing is among young men and specifically among young black men in this country.

00:37:33.320 I want to bring your guys' attention to this chart because there's a lot that it shows.

00:37:38.440 I know it's just murders.

00:37:39.680 Right.

00:37:39.960 But we're talking about you mentioned something about the 60s.

00:37:42.240 For some reason in 1962 to 64, we start seeing it from 1962 onward, a ridiculous spike in the murder rate offenses per 100,000 population.

00:37:51.760 I don't know exactly why.

00:37:53.380 We can see around 1990.

00:37:55.080 It starts to decline rapidly.

00:37:57.020 There's a couple of interesting points there.

00:37:58.660 This is U.S. murder rate.

00:37:59.700 So New York City's broken window policing has nothing to do with it.

00:38:02.040 This is the entirety of the country.

00:38:03.280 This could be one of two things.

00:38:05.800 The leaded gasoline, that was the 80s, right?

00:38:08.500 I believe so, yeah.

00:38:09.180 We were getting rid of it.

00:38:09.820 And the last truck, I think for trucks, it was the 90s.

00:38:13.300 But this also coincides with one of the, if not the largest economic expansion.

00:38:17.920 Or I shouldn't say that now because who knows how you define it with the pandemic and all that stuff.

00:38:22.060 But we had a massive economic boom in the 90s.

00:38:25.860 So this would interestingly correlate with the idea that as people started to get more things, like they started to, their lives started to improve, murder rates started to drop dramatically.

00:38:33.840 Yeah.

00:38:34.080 And I would say that there was, that was a temporary kind of sugar high based on neoliberal policies of Reagan and Clinton where there was a lot of money that was released back into the public because of massive tax cuts.

00:38:48.080 I mean, we can talk about confiscatory taxation, if you'd like, and the top marginal tax rate, you know, the top marginal tax rate in 1961.

00:38:55.040 It's funny that you brought up that, that, that figure in 1960, it's 91% compared to 37% now.

00:39:02.960 But like they're down in the 60s.

00:39:04.840 Reagan cut a bunch of taxes during that time period.

00:39:07.480 And a lot of people got an influx in cash.

00:39:09.920 Crime did drop.

00:39:11.140 Sorry?

00:39:11.720 Crime did drop.

00:39:12.820 Well, right.

00:39:13.200 But that was temporary.

00:39:14.260 That was temporary.

00:39:14.920 And then the income inequality kind of set in and the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

00:39:19.540 And that's mostly what I'm interested in talking about on my program.

00:39:22.500 Let me show you guys something which will add some context to the current crime spike.

00:39:27.660 So you see right here, this drop off after about, it looks like about 2007, there's a major drop off in murder.

00:39:34.040 And then it spikes in 2014.

00:39:36.880 The problem with a chart like this is that it doesn't account for technology.

00:39:40.300 The reason the murder rate declined in 2007 was cell phones.

00:39:45.440 So when cell phones became ubiquitous, the ability to call emergency services became instantaneous.

00:39:50.900 So when people were victims of violent crime, you had emergency service notified immediately.

00:39:55.360 And so this resulted in a drop in the murder rate, but not in a drop, a drop in violent crimes, not a direct correlation, meaning crime had been going down.

00:40:04.080 But the murder rate dropped more than violent crime in general because people weren't dying.

00:40:08.220 They were being stabbed.

00:40:09.300 They were being robbed.

00:40:09.880 They were being shot.

00:40:10.420 And they were living.

00:40:11.400 That's not murder.

00:40:12.240 So it wasn't counted as murder.

00:40:13.280 Well, we have we there is a chart, by the way, that you can look at because that actually pairs recessions with this murder chart.

00:40:20.800 And again, the correlation is not really there.

00:40:22.940 And as far as New York, you say that it had nothing to do with broken windows policing.

00:40:26.460 This is actually that map specifically was the U.S.

00:40:29.080 Yeah, I know, I know.

00:40:29.760 But you said it had nothing to do with broken windows policing.

00:40:31.940 But that assumes that there isn't a greater decrease in crime in New York than nationwide, which is not the case.

00:40:39.120 There was a greater decrease in the city of New York.

00:40:41.800 Like Chicago had a decline, too.

00:40:43.220 But Chicago's homicide rate, which is almost on par with the city of New York, is six times higher per capita than the city of New York.

00:40:49.320 And in terms of raw numbers, it's double, even though they're at a third of the population, which is the same thing that I just said with different math.

00:40:55.780 So New York became the safest big city and our crime rate actually declined.

00:40:59.800 And in fact, Freakonomics actually attributes this to the legalization of abortion, which happened in the city of New York pre Roe versus Wade.

00:41:08.180 It was one of the six states that had it legal electively.

00:41:10.540 So this is like a known thing that people have talked about and speculated on what the result is.

00:41:15.400 Now, also for the environmental point.

00:41:17.200 Can I just ask you a question about that?

00:41:18.880 What does the connection to what does that's what Freakonomics says that the legalization of abortion and they compare it to Ceausescu, whatever country he was the dictator of.

00:41:30.460 They say that that correlates with crime because they say all these unwanted children end up being born and then they end up committing that is certainly a claim.

00:41:38.040 So that's how that works together.

00:41:39.680 Then you're saying that abortion should be illegal for that reason.

00:41:44.640 No, no, no.

00:41:45.060 It would be legal.

00:41:46.040 Abortion leads to less unwanted children being born.

00:41:49.040 And again, you're smiling.

00:41:50.660 But I mean, well, I'm actually pro-choice, but not for this reason.

00:41:54.600 But you're smiling.

00:41:55.640 But the thing is, this is what was proposed in Freakonomics.

00:41:58.280 I actually disagree with their analysis.

00:41:59.760 They leave a lot of things out.

00:42:01.520 But again, I use that as an example to show that the New York decline did start before the national decline.

00:42:07.140 I'm almost positive that that study has been called into question.

00:42:10.040 It is.

00:42:10.500 Just to clarify, you're saying more abortions meant lower crime.

00:42:13.220 Is that what you're saying?

00:42:13.460 That's what Freakonomics asserted.

00:42:15.120 It's in their little movie and it's in their original book.

00:42:18.340 I think that makes sense.

00:42:19.880 If you've got two parents, you've got one parent, they got a baby.

00:42:24.440 That baby's getting food.

00:42:25.300 You know, like you could have no job.

00:42:27.780 You could be homeless.

00:42:28.600 Someone's going to find that.

00:42:29.400 Well, you know what?

00:42:30.020 I would love to decrease desperation in terms of families in this country.

00:42:35.480 I'm not sure if you've talked about it a ton on your program, Tim, but we should have made the child tax credit permanent that we expanded in the 2021 American Rescue Act.

00:42:44.120 Can you explain what that is?

00:42:45.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:45.660 So there was a tax credit that was in place, but during the pandemic, it was expanded to be a monthly payment.

00:42:52.900 It also, the amount was increased.

00:42:54.880 So it was up to $3,600 a month for six and under, $3,000 for $6 to $17,000.

00:43:00.220 And then it also was expanded to include people who had too little income to qualify previously.

00:43:08.020 We cut child poverty by nearly in half instantly.

00:43:10.880 And the reason that we don't have it is because the entire Republican Party and Joe Manchin and Sinema essentially...

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00:44:16.060 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:44:20.480 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

00:44:27.620 We care about you.

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00:44:41.460 Did I mention that we care?

00:44:45.040 ...nixed it.

00:44:47.060 But this is the kind of stuff that's possible in this country to make people less desperate.

00:44:51.080 If you want less crime, make society a broader, more beneficial place for people with a bigger safety net so people don't have to turn to desperation.

00:45:00.360 Real quick, this is the crazy thing.

00:45:01.840 I think the only people who disagree with that are establishment Republicans, like the prominent Republican party members.

00:45:08.360 But you should talk about it more on your show.

00:45:10.320 We do. I mean, I think that what after, I'll go extreme with it.

00:45:14.320 If a peep, after a second kid, no more taxes.

00:45:16.780 I mean, I know that there have been certain proposals in places like Hungary that are like that.

00:45:29.660 But they are heavily, heavily tilted towards heterosexual families as opposed to if a gay couple wants to adopt or have children.

00:45:38.520 I don't agree with that because I want more taxation, frankly, so that we could have socialized health care.

00:45:46.140 We could have a College for All Act, which honestly you could pay for with a tax on Wall Street speculation.

00:45:51.180 It would be incredibly easy.

00:45:52.620 It's only $48 billion a year, which is less than the military budget increase that we did in 21 to 22, which is around $71 billion.

00:46:00.140 I want to do that kind of stuff.

00:46:02.300 And so getting rid of income tax, I would not be in favor of it.

00:46:05.780 But if you want to create tax incentives for families so that they can raise their kids and they aren't in poverty, I am all for that, Tim.

00:46:14.520 To your point about nobody would disagree, I would 100% disagree with that because, again,

00:46:18.760 You don't want tax credits for people that have babies?

00:46:20.200 There is not a demonstration that these policies kind of that these work in reducing crime.

00:46:25.100 In fact, we see the opposite.

00:46:26.700 If you put up that homicide chart, it starts increasing during the war on poverty, which is the greatest increase in crime.

00:46:33.820 Sorry, go ahead.

00:46:35.480 Not talking about crime.

00:46:37.000 She was.

00:46:37.920 She said if you wanted to deal with crime, this is how you do it.

00:46:39.680 Well, I'm trying to connect it to this.

00:46:41.200 Right, right.

00:46:41.760 But in the broader sense, I think the most important thing to take away from this here is that every single Republican voted against the American Rescue Act and the expanded child tax credit.

00:46:51.820 There is one party that is.

00:46:53.460 Look, it's not.

00:46:54.160 But are you saying.

00:46:54.640 I'm more obviously in the Bernie Sanders wing.

00:46:57.740 I have deep, deep disagreements with Hillary Clinton-esque neoliberal politicians.

00:47:03.400 But yeah, it's the Democratic Party in favor of policies that are going to be helping people on a day-to-day basis like this.

00:47:09.620 The Republicans voted against a broad bill that included one thing in it.

00:47:13.340 Is that what happened?

00:47:13.960 Yeah, but they also fought tooth and nail about the actual child tax credit.

00:47:19.420 This was a part of the Inflation Reduction Act negotiations as well.

00:47:22.860 They were not in favor of that, too.

00:47:24.100 And Joe Manchin, your senator, right?

00:47:25.820 We're here in West Virginia.

00:47:26.460 Oh, he's awful.

00:47:26.780 We hate him.

00:47:27.200 I mean, you got to like, I mean, you're a celebrity here, right, Tim?

00:47:31.800 In West Virginia, you should call on Joe Manchin and say, hey, why don't you do this?

00:47:36.060 Why are you not in favor of the child tax credit?

00:47:37.980 That dude is neoliberal.

00:47:39.900 Totally.

00:47:40.360 To perfection.

00:47:41.040 It's like nobody in West Virginia wants the guy.

00:47:44.320 Right.

00:47:44.700 I mean, he's very unpopular.

00:47:45.940 Right.

00:47:46.360 That's not true.

00:47:47.100 He's actually the most popular politician in West Virginia history.

00:47:49.620 Go talk to some people in West Virginia.

00:47:51.080 I'm sure you could find people.

00:47:52.120 Find people?

00:47:52.940 Dude, I get what I'm here.

00:47:53.820 Our numbers are in the tank right now.

00:47:55.300 I'm in right wing nut job territory.

00:47:57.280 Listen, this guy lost his mind.

00:47:58.660 I get why you're against him.

00:48:00.460 Maybe four years ago he was popular because the state, like for whatever reason, but people

00:48:06.000 are not happy with him today.

00:48:07.600 I've not met a single person here who likes him.

00:48:10.040 I mean, they might be upset with him now, but he has been.

00:48:11.740 No, he's tanking and pulling numbers in hypothetical matchups with Jim Justice in the Senate.

00:48:15.980 That's actually a fact.

00:48:17.400 West Virginia, 86% Trump supporting state.

00:48:20.660 They all of those people despise him for obvious reasons.

00:48:23.440 But then you go and meet some of the more moderate, don't really care, middle of the road people.

00:48:27.360 And they're just like, what happened to that guy?

00:48:29.620 And look, man, I see what you're saying, but I'm telling you like.

00:48:33.700 No, I get why you're against him.

00:48:35.480 It's not about me.

00:48:36.340 I'm saying like, we'll go hang out any one of these.

00:48:39.120 And this is the panhandle.

00:48:39.940 Don't get me wrong.

00:48:40.620 But I'm even, we were hanging out in Charleston five hours from here.

00:48:43.820 Not a single person I've ever met in West Virginia is like, I like that guy.

00:48:46.540 Not one.

00:48:47.540 I've talked to people who are like, who have told me in West Virginia that they don't like

00:48:51.460 Trump.

00:48:52.040 They'd rather have DeSantis.

00:48:53.260 And then they say, Manchin has got to go.

00:48:55.180 He's got to go.

00:48:55.760 We got to get somebody else.

00:48:56.640 He's awful because he's like, he's not a Democrat or Republican at this point.

00:49:01.160 It's like, he's a corporate, he's that, that, that's it.

00:49:04.440 It's like, he's of the corporate party.

00:49:06.360 He doesn't seem to be catering to anybody.

00:49:08.220 He has a fine line to walk, in my opinion, to hold a state like this as a Democrat.

00:49:12.460 And this, like, I get, I get why she being more progressive doesn't like him,

00:49:16.020 but he's like one of the only Democrats that could have won here, which is why

00:49:20.080 when they tried running a progressive in the primary, like that person got

00:49:23.420 slaughtered by him.

00:49:24.720 Man, Manchin, it's, but I get why you would want to replace him.

00:49:27.100 I want to replace him.

00:49:27.940 The Republicans lost the Senate.

00:49:28.920 Jim Justice is very likely.

00:49:30.400 Yes.

00:49:30.880 Yeah.

00:49:31.120 Sorry.

00:49:31.500 I just want to point this out.

00:49:32.580 I, off the top of my head, I think Manchin's numbers are like 55% disapproval.

00:49:36.060 I don't, I can't see him winning.

00:49:37.300 I mean, look, I don't know for sure.

00:49:38.760 I'm not psychic, but everyone I talked to, it's like, you've got, um, I think it's, uh,

00:49:44.940 who is it Mooney potentially and, um, Jim Justice, but Jim Justice seems very likely

00:49:49.040 to get it.

00:49:49.880 We'll see.

00:49:50.400 I don't know for sure.

00:49:51.000 Well, you brought up, you brought up Trump and DeSantis in West Virginia.

00:49:53.720 I'm curious.

00:49:54.280 Cause, uh, I saw Tim, you know, you've been like upset a little bit about how DeSantis

00:50:00.500 has been, or maybe not upset.

00:50:01.840 Okay.

00:50:02.400 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:50:03.000 Oh, you're pissed.

00:50:03.780 All right.

00:50:04.260 So, so, so I'll, I'll characterize it as you're a little pissed at how DeSantis has been

00:50:09.080 using those AI images of Trump, uh, Trump used three of them one time.

00:50:13.560 Yeah.

00:50:13.920 What, what, I mean, can you expand on that, that thought Ron DeSantis, his team in order

00:50:18.980 to smear Donald Trump ran fake images of him kissing and hugging Fauci alongside real images

00:50:24.600 and then wrote real life Trump over the time.

00:50:26.080 Right.

00:50:26.900 And it's one thing to play politics, which I despise when you get someone being like,

00:50:31.480 you know, uh, Nancy Pelosi voted against this act.

00:50:35.800 And it's like the saving puppies act, but it's actually a bill that like cuts taxes for

00:50:38.800 oil companies or the inverse where it's like, you know, uh, insert Republican voted for

00:50:44.100 whatever.

00:50:45.520 I, I despise all of that, but actually fabricating images, shrinking them down and placing them

00:50:51.440 alongside real images and then writing real life Trump on it.

00:50:54.200 Can you pull up the image?

00:50:55.200 I couldn't see it.

00:50:56.020 Yeah.

00:50:56.440 So, I mean, is that kind of the core of your, are you, would you say as of now, if

00:51:01.000 you were to vote today, you'd be voting for Trump?

00:51:03.320 Yeah.

00:51:04.240 Um, but that's the core of your.

00:51:05.800 So, oh, there's a lot more than that.

00:51:08.700 Here, take a look at this.

00:51:10.200 This is, this is as I, I, I feel like this is campaign ending.

00:51:14.980 I feel like this really, yes.

00:51:17.740 I mean, it's funny to me.

00:51:19.040 The manufacture of fake images to trick people into voting for someone is look, this is the

00:51:25.980 open door.

00:51:27.420 Rhonda Sanders decided to be the person to stick his foot over the line and say, we will

00:51:31.280 manufacture fake images to win.

00:51:34.040 I mean, they do say that they're fake.

00:51:35.840 Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:51:38.000 This is someone probably missed.

00:51:39.240 They don't say it's fake.

00:51:40.380 Oh, it says right there.

00:51:41.080 This is an image calling out the fake graphics.

00:51:44.460 They wrote real life Trump.

00:51:45.760 And this is NPR circling the fake images to call them out.

00:51:49.220 Right.

00:51:49.720 They ran it as real life Trump.

00:51:51.700 Now, I understand if you, if you scrutinize the images, you can tell they're fake.

00:51:54.980 This one says mehap whems.

00:51:57.300 Okay.

00:51:57.660 That's not, that's not English.

00:51:59.100 And it's under the White House emblem.

00:52:00.480 But when it's in a, in a, in a video, that's a minute long and you pass this, I've already

00:52:05.860 had people tell me that they, they didn't realize it was fake.

00:52:09.260 And I've already, people say, I talked to my parents about it.

00:52:11.520 They thought it was real.

00:52:12.460 And so what the DeSantis fans are doing now is they're like, can you believe Tim actually

00:52:17.060 thought those were real?

00:52:19.020 Like, dude, if you want to play that game and call me stupid and insult me for calling

00:52:24.600 out DeSantis's campaign for doing this, I literally don't care.

00:52:27.780 It changes nothing of my moral stance that this stepped well over the line.

00:52:32.140 Now, I got to be honest, I, you go back in time to the first time a politician lied and

00:52:36.200 people were probably like, can you believe they actually lied to us?

00:52:38.760 And we know that's bad.

00:52:39.780 And I hate all of it, but this is the next level.

00:52:43.300 This is like, yeah, it's bad enough.

00:52:46.500 They're all lying.

00:52:47.740 Well, what's the core of your disagreement otherwise then?

00:52:50.180 I mean, I, cause if, if it's, if it's with COVID, I would say I'm more on Trump's side

00:52:55.320 with that kind of stuff.

00:52:56.080 I liked Operation Warp Speed.

00:52:57.400 Look, I would have done a little differently for giving away, for giving away government

00:53:00.680 money for vaccines that we should have nationalized them and the intellectual property should have

00:53:05.920 been waived so that everybody could have had access to it.

00:53:08.700 Also in the publicly funded should be publicly owned.

00:53:10.920 I'm in favor of that, Tim.

00:53:12.920 So, I mean, that's one thing that I think Trump is better.

00:53:15.280 And, and look, just DeSantis is frankly an anti-LGBTQ demagogue.

00:53:20.100 Um, and that's where I would, I, I think Trump's less dangerous than DeSantis.

00:53:24.620 Okay.

00:53:24.900 He is, but I think it's more so the Florida legislature that's doing it.

00:53:29.140 And then he's latching onto it.

00:53:30.860 Cause I think when it comes to real issues related to this stuff, he's, he's mum.

00:53:34.440 I mean, he's been anti-wokeness is the center of his campaign.

00:53:38.440 Yeah, he kind of made that at the forefront of his campaign.

00:53:40.860 No, no, for sure.

00:53:41.400 For sure.

00:53:41.700 For sure.

00:53:41.940 Uh, I like DeSantis in a lot of ways.

00:53:44.340 Trump wouldn't even send the National Guard against the Black Lives Matter rioters.

00:53:47.120 That's, that's a different question.

00:53:48.260 That's, that's not wokeness.

00:53:49.400 That's like crime and law and stuff.

00:53:51.460 DeSantis, I think is mostly surface level.

00:53:54.820 I, I like a lot of his policies.

00:53:56.940 I think he's.

00:53:58.160 What do you like about his policies?

00:54:00.100 Uh, I mean, at the beginning of COVID, it wasn't particularly good, right?

00:54:04.880 He did a lot, he did a lot of what everyone else did.

00:54:06.520 But to be fair, I was, I was very much like, I guess I was very much, uh, you know,

00:54:11.720 Thomas Massey didn't want to do this big spending bill.

00:54:14.380 And I said, this is, this is crazy.

00:54:15.940 The economy, like, we don't know what's going on.

00:54:17.740 There are people dying.

00:54:18.460 We're seeing videos of people dying in the street.

00:54:19.760 And so I think hindsight being 2020, I look back and I'm like, I probably should not have

00:54:24.960 just gone along with all of that.

00:54:26.760 That was probably stupid.

00:54:28.260 Uh, Ron DeSantis did initially, but then changed and said, you know what?

00:54:30.660 This is not making sense.

00:54:31.520 We're reopening.

00:54:32.300 And I think that made a lot more sense.

00:54:34.280 It was also under extreme pressure.

00:54:36.200 Like Andrew Cuomo was the most promoted governor in the country and he was the most attacked.

00:54:40.140 So DeSantis did, did well into, in, uh, not the first, but he did well in, uh, reopening

00:54:46.340 things back up.

00:54:47.360 But what policies do you like generally about him?

00:54:49.920 I mean, that besides the COVID stuff, what are the other policies like as governor?

00:54:53.600 I mean, I think you think it's just the state legislature that's putting together.

00:54:57.800 I mean, I think it's mostly there was a grooming event happening at club Q, uh, and that was

00:55:04.080 after the shooting, right?

00:55:05.260 Which is essentially kind of saying, well, look, they had it coming a little bit.

00:55:09.160 I mean, you didn't say that, but that's the implication.

00:55:11.460 I actually said, how do we prevent these things from happening?

00:55:13.140 If people, so I tweeted.

00:55:14.780 So you actually seem pretty aligned with DeSantis on the, on the, but I, but I don't think it's

00:55:19.540 him.

00:55:19.800 I think it's the Florida legislature.

00:55:21.120 And if DeSantis becomes president, you think Congress is going to vote for any of these things?

00:55:24.340 As for the club Q thing, uh, I said, if people keep saying woodchippers, what did you think

00:55:31.440 was going to happen?

00:55:31.940 Right?

00:55:32.320 I am saying, stop saying these things.

00:55:35.520 Saying what?

00:55:36.040 People keep going online and going, woodchippers, woodchippers, woodchippers.

00:55:39.000 You know what that means, right?

00:55:39.660 For who though?

00:55:40.620 For, for groomers.

00:55:41.760 Right.

00:55:42.080 Okay.

00:55:42.320 And I'm like, what do you think is going to happen if you go online and keep calling for

00:55:45.020 death?

00:55:45.440 Like, don't do that.

00:55:46.340 Stop that.

00:55:46.960 Right.

00:55:47.240 We want to stop child abuse.

00:55:49.160 We want to stop violence.

00:55:50.340 That's what we want.

00:55:50.840 So that's why I hope you have dedicated so much of your program to talking about the

00:55:54.800 Catholic church, because there is, that is the institution in this country right now

00:55:59.260 that is most associated with child abuse and queer people, gay people, trans people, that

00:56:04.300 is not a thing.

00:56:05.440 What is your definition of child abuse?

00:56:07.040 They're most associated, but they're actually not more abusive than any other religious institution.

00:56:11.600 And they're not nearly as abusive as the public school system.

00:56:13.400 No, no, no.

00:56:13.800 I want to, I want to stay on this.

00:56:15.240 And I also just, where are the books at?

00:56:18.220 Where did they get moved to?

00:56:18.960 Tim, though, what policies about DeSantis do you like in terms of his, what he's running

00:56:23.300 on for president?

00:56:24.360 Culture war stuff, mostly.

00:56:25.580 But I think, I think COVID policy was good.

00:56:26.880 Hey, plug for the show.

00:56:28.100 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:29.060 Right, but what's the culture war stuff that you like?

00:56:31.680 So, yes, but the reason why I've not been, so last year I was like, I think DeSantis is

00:56:36.620 probably better for one simple reason.

00:56:39.160 No, what stuff do you like now?

00:56:40.960 What do you like that he's running on?

00:56:42.600 Yeah, culture war stuff, predominantly.

00:56:43.900 But can you expand on that notion?

00:56:45.860 I think, you want me to like pull up specific?

00:56:48.260 I mean, I don't know.

00:56:48.940 It's like you said that you said that you like certain things, that you're leaning more

00:56:53.320 towards Trump because of AI images.

00:56:54.840 I would hope that there's a little bit more substance to your disagreement.

00:56:58.000 Well, by every time I try and bring it up, you just ask me the same question again.

00:57:01.480 Because you're not answering my question.

00:57:03.200 So I'm trying to.

00:57:04.200 Okay, go ahead.

00:57:04.780 So, now where was I before you jumped back in first?

00:57:09.360 The culture war stuff is obvious, right?

00:57:11.020 Parental rights and education bill.

00:57:12.620 Yes, that one's fairly obvious.

00:57:14.500 I don't know about the Disney stuff.

00:57:15.760 That's kind of absurd.

00:57:17.360 What I was going to say is, let's go back in time to why I said I was for Ron DeSantis

00:57:21.120 in the first place and why where I'm at now is not.

00:57:24.900 The first thing was last year I was having a conversation with the Daily Wire crew and I

00:57:28.300 said Trump is brash.

00:57:29.840 Many people don't like him and he won't shut up about 2020.

00:57:33.620 He's a sore loser.

00:57:34.980 Ron DeSantis, at the very least, is dry and can get us something better than, say, Joe Biden.

00:57:41.420 I know, but I'm still not really hearing a specific policy.

00:57:44.920 Right.

00:57:45.180 So his COVID policy was correct.

00:57:47.700 Okay.

00:57:48.420 Wait, but you just said something with the beaches that you don't like the closure.

00:57:51.720 You can bring it over.

00:57:53.740 Like.

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00:59:04.660 We care about you.

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00:59:06.700 Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs.

00:59:09.820 Weird, I don't remember saying that part.

00:59:12.680 Visit Desjardins.com slash care

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00:59:18.480 Did I mention that we care?

00:59:22.200 His presidential platform.

00:59:24.840 I don't know if he's got one, does he?

00:59:26.780 Okay, so you're...

00:59:28.280 I've not been on board with him.

00:59:31.020 So we can look at what happened...

00:59:32.040 And you said parental rights.

00:59:32.940 I'm curious what you mean by that.

00:59:34.380 Yeah, like...

00:59:35.040 I'm in favor of parental rights, eh?

00:59:36.800 Right?

00:59:37.100 Like, I want parents to be able to,

00:59:39.140 if their child is transitioning,

00:59:40.560 to be able to work with their doctor with a plan

00:59:43.900 and make sure that children are not being driven to suicidal ideation

00:59:49.300 and that parents aren't restricted by the state from...

00:59:52.400 Let's talk about one of his policies.

00:59:53.840 Okay, go ahead.

00:59:54.820 I don't want parents to be restricted from the state

00:59:56.700 from giving health care to their children.

00:59:58.440 If I open this book on YouTube,

01:00:00.520 the stream will get taken down.

01:00:02.040 Okay.

01:00:02.640 Did you ever read this book?

01:00:03.920 No.

01:00:04.320 This book is in middle schools in Florida.

01:00:05.980 Rhonda Sanders had it removed.

01:00:07.140 That's one simple policy he did.

01:00:08.420 That's very good.

01:00:09.520 You've never seen this book?

01:00:10.560 I've heard about it.

01:00:11.400 Have you ever looked inside of it?

01:00:12.760 No, but I mean, I don't believe in censorship.

01:00:15.520 If I show you a picture of a blowjob, would you be offended?

01:00:17.980 I mean...

01:00:19.380 Can I show you a picture of a blowjob on camera?

01:00:20.920 I wouldn't be offended.

01:00:22.060 I mean, I think...

01:00:22.720 No, disavow.

01:00:23.380 Honestly, do you know, Tim,

01:00:24.720 that the more children learn about sexual education

01:00:27.680 in the way that's productive and done in schools,

01:00:30.240 the less likely they are to be sexually abused

01:00:32.300 because they know what is good and what is bad?

01:00:33.880 I can't show this image on YouTube.

01:00:35.220 Do you hear me, though, about that?

01:00:36.820 So, I think...

01:00:37.500 The more children learn about sexual education,

01:00:39.980 the less likely they are to be victims of pedophilia and rape.

01:00:43.760 I think the issue is you're confusing sexual education with kink.

01:00:48.000 Right?

01:00:48.500 So, I'm looking at this right now.

01:00:50.060 I can't even hold it up because I can't point it at the camera.

01:00:53.700 And I don't understand why school children should be taught

01:00:57.180 how to perform blowjobs for an auto-androphile.

01:00:59.440 I don't believe they're being taught that.

01:01:01.300 The book was banned.

01:01:02.500 I don't really know.

01:01:04.240 Again, because this is another case-by-case example.

01:01:06.960 No, no, no.

01:01:07.340 You asked me about what Ron DeSantis did.

01:01:07.840 I am not in favor of censorship.

01:01:09.620 You asked me what Ron DeSantis did that I liked.

01:01:11.460 That he banned genderqueer?

01:01:12.900 That he's removing pornographic and kink books from middle schools

01:01:16.460 is a very, very good one.

01:01:18.400 And I would...

01:01:19.820 Well, for me, my politics are a little broader than that, Tim, I gotta say.

01:01:22.980 So, listen, if your argument to me is that I or anyone else should support your politics

01:01:28.400 because you want to show blowjobs to children, you're going to lose.

01:01:31.180 Well, I don't think that that is a policy done by teachers in this country.

01:01:35.900 I think that this is a...

01:01:36.900 This book was in schools in Florida, which is why...

01:01:38.940 There are a ton of books that are in a ton of schools.

01:01:41.500 I don't believe in censorship.

01:01:44.140 That's not my bag, buddy.

01:01:45.320 So you think children should have Playboy?

01:01:47.140 I don't really think so.

01:01:49.120 What about Hustler?

01:01:49.620 Because that's pornography.

01:01:50.320 Pornography, uh...

01:01:51.400 So you think a blowjob...

01:01:53.060 Tim, you're in favor of censorship.

01:01:54.760 Uh, I...

01:01:55.440 Yes, you are.

01:01:55.920 You are.

01:01:56.320 Absolutely.

01:01:56.880 Oh, that's good to know.

01:01:57.920 If you watched the show, you'd know this.

01:01:59.660 Oh, you're...

01:02:00.160 Okay, you're pro-censorship.

01:02:01.140 We talk about how we're...

01:02:02.260 I am not in...

01:02:03.140 One, I want children to be able to have all the information that they need in order to

01:02:06.800 make...

01:02:06.820 Including pornography.

01:02:07.860 No, that's not pornography.

01:02:09.540 If I show you this...

01:02:11.020 Whoa.

01:02:12.080 Did the power just go out?

01:02:13.680 Yeah, the power just went out.

01:02:14.660 See, you try to...

01:02:15.580 Are you kidding me?

01:02:16.900 You try to show it to her and then it went out.

01:02:18.620 There you go.

01:02:20.320 I was getting good, too.

01:02:22.820 What the fuck just happened?

01:02:24.760 Well, we're still recording.

01:02:26.260 Uh-oh.

01:02:26.980 Really?

01:02:27.660 Yeah, we're recording.

01:02:28.120 Yeah, because we have reserve batteries.

01:02:29.820 Okay.

01:02:32.260 Wow.

01:02:32.800 Look, you threatened to show the book too many times, Tim.

01:02:35.320 Yeah, I don't know.

01:02:36.460 Are we really still on air or what happened?

01:02:38.960 So our...

01:02:39.920 We backup record everything.

01:02:42.920 And...

01:02:43.200 We're still recording.

01:02:44.840 I think...

01:02:45.480 I think we're back.

01:02:46.960 We are back?

01:02:49.240 Whoa.

01:02:50.880 Okay.

01:02:51.380 It's pretty stormy out.

01:02:52.720 It broke your saucer, too.

01:02:53.980 Yeah, I mean, it's rainy.

01:02:55.320 Okay, I think we're live again.

01:02:57.300 Okay.

01:02:57.960 There we go.

01:02:58.580 We're back.

01:02:59.420 Yes.

01:02:59.780 So the power just fluctuated.

01:03:01.100 The power just went out, yeah.

01:03:02.220 That was God striking you down, Tim.

01:03:04.120 That was the YouTube guy.

01:03:04.860 Striking me down.

01:03:05.700 You're the one arguing for...

01:03:07.280 You're the one arguing for censorship.

01:03:09.160 Yes.

01:03:09.860 Yeah, I mean, I don't really mind that stuff.

01:03:12.460 I mean, are you in favor of children seeing violence on television?

01:03:16.420 No.

01:03:16.700 That scares me a little bit more.

01:03:17.660 It depends.

01:03:18.200 Depends.

01:03:18.520 It's not so simple to say violence, right?

01:03:20.400 But yes, censorship is a good thing.

01:03:22.820 But when done bad, it's a bad thing.

01:03:24.300 Yeah.

01:03:24.620 For instance, Ian Crossland, who is a co-host on Timcast IRL, used to be a moderator for

01:03:29.220 Minds.com.

01:03:30.360 And he had to filter out graphic depictions of murder and rape and child abuse.

01:03:35.240 Censorship is absolutely vital in that regard.

01:03:38.560 So if we're talking about a book like, in particular, there was one called, there was

01:03:43.340 a teacher who provided a book to her middle schoolers called This Book is Gay.

01:03:47.180 I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

01:03:47.980 I have heard.

01:03:48.460 That's actually a very good book.

01:03:49.660 And it provides instruction on children.

01:03:51.220 She provided instruction to children on how to use adult gay anonymous sex apps.

01:03:55.460 Yeah, I don't think that's appropriate.

01:03:56.720 Now, look, by all means, you can be in favor of them.

01:03:58.640 I'm not telling you you're not allowed to.

01:03:59.620 Maybe, maybe she had a child in her classroom who wanted to go on Grindr and have sex with

01:04:04.720 adults.

01:04:05.200 Is that your argument?

01:04:05.820 No, I mean, I'm not saying that.

01:04:07.160 First of all, I don't know.

01:04:08.400 Again, this is another.

01:04:09.080 Why would a 10 year old need Grindr?

01:04:10.180 This is this.

01:04:10.860 This is the thing that you do, though, Tim.

01:04:12.620 Oh, that I do.

01:04:13.120 You're picking specific examples that are inflammatory.

01:04:16.180 You asked me for one.

01:04:17.400 You asked me for one.

01:04:18.740 Okay, then go ahead.

01:04:20.140 I did.

01:04:20.740 We have the book.

01:04:21.600 Yeah, I'm not.

01:04:22.360 I said, don't show children blowjobs.

01:04:23.840 You said you appreciate it.

01:04:24.440 I'm not in favor of censorship.

01:04:26.380 I'm not in favor of censorship.

01:04:26.920 As an objective observer that's sitting here, you asked for a specific example.

01:04:30.240 He gave it to you.

01:04:30.880 And then you try to say he's broadly in favor of censorship.

01:04:33.820 Yeah, it's possibly to make a hypocrisy point later on when he complains about social

01:04:37.440 media censorship or something like that.

01:04:39.220 No, it's like he's talking about this specific issue.

01:04:41.940 And I remember I was working on an education series about this kind of thing years before

01:04:46.780 it was popular.

01:04:47.500 Yes, I was ahead of my time.

01:04:49.060 And yeah, these kind of things were popping up all over schools.

01:04:51.800 And I am happy that DeSantis is like doing something.

01:04:54.640 We had Asra Nomani on the show.

01:04:56.080 She brought in, I think, like 70 books of all of the weird racist indoctrination and

01:05:02.440 sex stuff that they're bringing in schools.

01:05:04.100 Yeah.

01:05:04.300 And I said, look, man, it's really simple for me.

01:05:07.000 If someone comes to me and says that they think this book, which Amazon says is 18 up

01:05:12.400 only, should be given to children, I'll say, I will vote against you.

01:05:16.300 So should the Bible be banned from schools because it depicts sexual acts?

01:05:19.220 It is banned from schools, public schools.

01:05:20.580 The Bible probably is not appropriate for children for a lot of reasons.

01:05:24.540 And I am not a Christian, so I don't particularly care about whether or not they're going to

01:05:28.840 give a book to children that has something like Deuteronomy 2320 in it.

01:05:32.440 I don't think kids should be reading that kind of stuff.

01:05:34.880 However, I'm in favor of the parents deciding when it is appropriate for their kids, which

01:05:39.200 comes with very difficult moral questions in that my morality is different from the

01:05:42.880 morality of each individual parent.

01:05:44.640 So that's why I'm kind of like the government probably shouldn't be the one doing it.

01:05:48.200 Have you had an expert on sexual education on your program to talk about this kind of

01:05:53.280 stuff?

01:05:53.640 Yes.

01:05:54.500 What did they say?

01:05:56.420 And are you in favor of abstinence only?

01:05:58.700 No, it's been a very, very long time.

01:06:00.980 You're not in favor of abstinence only education.

01:06:02.920 I think abstinence only is...

01:06:03.760 So you're kind of hinging on this book that has pornographic material in it that like...

01:06:09.560 Okay.

01:06:10.320 There's a difference between sex and kink, right?

01:06:12.260 Okay, sure.

01:06:13.260 So many individuals on the left have made arguments in favor of kink for kids, which is weird to

01:06:19.060 me, and I think it's inappropriate.

01:06:20.620 I think kids should learn about sex.

01:06:22.320 I think the parents should decide when it's appropriate.

01:06:24.200 This is why typically at schools, they would give out notice to the parents like, we're intending

01:06:28.520 on doing sex ed.

01:06:29.440 Here's the subject we're going to cover.

01:06:30.680 Nothing's changed in that way.

01:06:31.780 With Florida was that they had a policy where they would not instruct parents and actually

01:06:36.560 were told not to talk to the parents if the kids were suffering identity issues.

01:06:41.580 Now, the state should not intervene and take away the rights of the parents in that way.

01:06:45.460 Can you say that again?

01:06:46.940 The state...

01:06:48.320 What about gender identity issues?

01:06:49.820 So in Florida, what prompts a bill like this, and it also happened with stuff in like

01:06:54.200 Nashville, was that the schools...

01:06:56.260 And I think they do this in like Washington and Colorado.

01:06:57.680 The schools were actually telling teachers not to talk to the parents if the children

01:07:02.460 were having some kind of identity issue.

01:07:04.900 And so this led to suicides.

01:07:06.960 No, no.

01:07:08.020 What leads to suicides is that children are being told that they cannot operate and be

01:07:15.000 who they are as the gender that is who they are in their heart.

01:07:18.180 That's what's leading to suicides.

01:07:19.200 I'm talking about one specific...

01:07:20.840 Well, I think it's like two...

01:07:21.520 Again, you're talking about one specific example.

01:07:23.320 I'm talking about broader, broader...

01:07:24.640 You can't ask me for like...

01:07:26.340 I talk about politics, Tim.

01:07:27.700 I don't talk about anecdotes.

01:07:28.480 Well, he's talking about policy that they would not disclose...

01:07:30.280 You asked me what the policy was.

01:07:32.040 You're talking about school district policy.

01:07:34.280 I'm talking...

01:07:34.680 I cover national politics.

01:07:35.600 You asked me to.

01:07:37.040 Yeah.

01:07:37.320 All right.

01:07:37.920 You can't ask me a question that when I explain where the policy came from, be like,

01:07:41.260 no, that makes no sense.

01:07:42.180 You go into individual anecdotes.

01:07:45.000 I'm telling you why the policy was written.

01:07:47.480 Okay.

01:07:47.960 Go ahead, Tim.

01:07:48.940 That's why the policy was written.

01:07:50.740 Because there were children who were having identity issues and the schools were instructed.

01:07:55.700 The teachers were told not to tell the parents.

01:07:57.380 This led to...

01:07:58.260 I think it was a suicide attempt.

01:07:59.880 The parents got angry.

01:08:00.600 Who had a suicide attempt?

01:08:01.520 A little girl tried to kill herself.

01:08:03.060 Okay.

01:08:03.320 Again, this is one case.

01:08:04.640 Go ahead.

01:08:05.000 And there was also another...

01:08:06.620 Right.

01:08:07.100 I'm not talking about...

01:08:08.380 Look at this anecdote.

01:08:09.120 Let's set policy.

01:08:09.620 I'm saying Florida set a law because...

01:08:11.920 Okay.

01:08:12.520 I'm not saying I agree or disagree.

01:08:13.740 I'm saying a thing led to a thing.

01:08:15.360 Right?

01:08:15.840 Mm-hmm.

01:08:16.580 My position is that parents should be fully informed about what's going on with their children

01:08:20.860 and teachers should not withhold that information from them.

01:08:23.020 It is not up to the state to decide what is best for the kid.

01:08:26.500 There are certain exceptions.

01:08:27.160 But the state is deciding what is best for the kid in these instances.

01:08:29.900 They're essentially saying that children...

01:08:33.660 Take Florida, for example.

01:08:34.880 You're talking about Florida.

01:08:35.820 Let's talk about it.

01:08:36.860 They're saying that children cannot, under the supervision of their doctor,

01:08:42.260 and with their parental consent...

01:08:43.760 None of this happens, by the way, without parental consent.

01:08:46.100 It's illegal.

01:08:46.940 They cannot work with their doctor on a healthcare plan for them to transition into their gender.

01:08:51.640 But I'm not talking about that.

01:08:52.520 I mean, you're talking about medical intervention.

01:08:54.140 I'm talking about...

01:08:54.600 Right, but you have spoken about this on your program before.

01:08:57.000 Yeah, I think, like, if a doctor prescribed a lobotomy to a kid, the government should stop

01:09:00.280 that, too.

01:09:00.420 It's not a lobotomy.

01:09:01.300 That's not what it is.

01:09:01.940 I'm saying that there are certain things in the medical world that we've prohibited.

01:09:04.900 Right, but this is not what should...

01:09:06.160 And it's one of them.

01:09:06.520 But the American Journal...

01:09:07.860 You disagree?

01:09:08.240 You think it shouldn't be?

01:09:08.880 I'm not arguing you wrong.

01:09:09.560 No, every single expert that is reputable on this front disagrees.

01:09:12.580 The American Journal of Pediatrics did a study about transitioning children.

01:09:16.020 They studied them over five years.

01:09:17.940 Ninety-four percent of the children continued to identify as the gender that they were choosing

01:09:23.780 to identify with at the beginning.

01:09:25.500 For five whole years?

01:09:26.120 Yeah, yes.

01:09:27.080 When placed on Lupron.

01:09:27.880 No, then the six percent that were remaining, three and a half percent, identified as cisgender.

01:09:35.020 Two and a half percent went back, yes, but they were heavily weighted under the age of

01:09:39.560 10 years old, where they never had any medical intervention.

01:09:42.940 This is how actually trans care actually goes, Tim.

01:09:45.860 Eight to 13 years old, you're put on puberty blockers.

01:09:48.360 Those are entirely reversible.

01:09:49.980 Then after that, that is 100% true.

01:09:52.400 It's just not true.

01:09:52.800 That's 100% true.

01:09:53.700 They're not entirely reversible.

01:09:55.120 To a certain degree, they can be.

01:09:56.680 But then why are they used in instances where someone has puberty that-

01:10:00.600 Precocious, yeah, that's precocious puberty.

01:10:01.660 Right, right, exactly.

01:10:02.580 And there's a carve-out for that in the Florida bill, by the way.

01:10:04.820 So cis kids can have it, but trans kids can't.

01:10:06.900 Because that's the primary label.

01:10:08.240 Then 16 years old-

01:10:08.840 That's the primary use of the drug.

01:10:09.940 Okay, but that's not what doctors say.

01:10:11.740 No, no, no.

01:10:12.100 Then 16 years old, 16 years old, that's when hormones happen.

01:10:16.280 Very, very, very rarely are there any surgeries under the age of 18.

01:10:20.100 I don't hear you talking about rhinoplasty under the age of 18 on your program.

01:10:23.800 We have.

01:10:24.380 Oh.

01:10:24.740 Maybe you haven't heard it because you don't watch the show.

01:10:26.320 Okay.

01:10:26.480 I've also said child beauty pageants are wrong and they're disgusting.

01:10:29.000 I've also said Hooters is inappropriate for kids.

01:10:30.700 And I said we shouldn't be giving minors any kind of cosmetic surgery.

01:10:33.800 I don't even like tattoos or piercings.

01:10:35.600 So when it comes to-

01:10:36.880 It's quite puritanical of you, Tim.

01:10:38.080 I'm surprised.

01:10:39.400 You have a lot of swords and beers and stuff in here.

01:10:42.040 I don't think children should be altering their bodies.

01:10:46.240 But you just said parental rights.

01:10:47.700 So if under 18, parents have to give consent for piercings and tattoos and for rhinoplasty.

01:10:52.660 Do you think a mom should have the right to remove the salivary glands of her child?

01:10:56.360 No, no, no.

01:10:57.120 Are you for parental rights or not?

01:10:58.980 See, this is a-

01:11:00.260 Every right has limits.

01:11:01.440 Well, this is actually interesting because we've-

01:11:03.080 What you're asking, we've actually talked in a great depth about on Timcast IRL.

01:11:07.280 Are you for parental rights or not?

01:11:08.920 I just asked.

01:11:09.380 That question right there leads in two different directions, which is, again, we've addressed.

01:11:13.480 If you watched the show, you'd have heard the statement we've made about it.

01:11:15.520 Well, I heard you five minutes ago say you were of parental rights and now you're saying you're not.

01:11:18.820 Where do parents' rights begin and where do they end is strictly a moral question based on the moral frameworks of an individual.

01:11:24.460 If there is someone who goes to a doctor in, say, Saudi Arabia and the doctor prescribes female circumcision, they're going to argue it's the parents' rights.

01:11:31.880 We would argue against that.

01:11:32.340 Another hypothetical.

01:11:33.460 I'm talking about reality.

01:11:34.160 But these things literally do happen in other countries.

01:11:36.500 But it wouldn't be a balance here.

01:11:37.340 I'm talking about this country and I'm talking about parental rights.

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01:12:38.120 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:12:42.660 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

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01:13:03.660 Did I mention that we care?

01:13:07.160 A point, right?

01:13:09.460 The point is the idea that parents have a right is limited to what our moral limits are.

01:13:14.920 Meaning, if you morally are okay with a child sex change, then you're going to argue in favor of parents' rights.

01:13:20.080 If I say you shouldn't be able to mandate vaccinations, you'd probably argue against the parents' right, right?

01:13:26.680 Should a school be allowed to mandate vaccines for children?

01:13:29.000 Yes.

01:13:29.680 But what about the parents' rights? Are you for parents' rights?

01:13:32.360 Well, I'm for public health.

01:13:33.940 But you're not for parents' rights.

01:13:35.340 You see, that question leads nowhere.

01:13:36.400 No, I mean, look, Tim, I've never made parental rights a plank of my own politics.

01:13:42.620 I'm saying this within the context of what you just said five minutes ago.

01:13:46.320 And I'm explaining.

01:13:47.340 Yes.

01:13:47.740 Parental rights extends to my morality.

01:13:49.300 So, right, your morality says that you think that trans children and parents, even if they agree with their child and the doctor is supervising this kind of transition, you're essentially saying that you don't believe that they should have the power and ability and that the state should intervene.

01:14:03.780 That sounds like big government to me.

01:14:05.300 Yeah, I don't know if you know who I am.

01:14:08.600 Well, okay.

01:14:09.160 Then there you go.

01:14:09.900 The state should intervene because you don't believe that parents should and their children.

01:14:13.900 They're in agreement.

01:14:15.400 So, at first, my position was, you know, early on, you know, if the doctors are prescribing it and it's the best they can do, I think we're looking at, in the past four years, about 50,000 or so cases of cross-sex hormones for kids.

01:14:27.640 You know, so be it.

01:14:28.360 Then we started seeing, like, the Tavistock scandal.

01:14:30.840 We saw Finland, Denmark, Sweden start pulling this.

01:14:33.680 The research coming out showed that it was not particularly effective.

01:14:36.740 And then we also had multiple studies showing that desistance rates for those who did not take any, who did not receive intervention was actually upwards of 95%.

01:14:46.340 And then my position became, it probably is the appropriate thing for the legislature to say, we're not going to allow this anymore.

01:14:51.680 Okay.

01:14:51.980 I just listed the American Journal of Pediatrics.

01:14:54.100 That's incredibly reputable.

01:14:55.880 Incredibly reputable.

01:14:57.140 94% of children continued care after age.

01:14:59.900 Take a Netherlands study.

01:15:01.200 This is Lancet.

01:15:02.180 98% continued hormone therapy on follow-up.

01:15:05.340 After what?

01:15:06.040 So, so, so you, no, but the other one's a five-year study.

01:15:09.360 This is just a secondary one.

01:15:10.300 After what point?

01:15:11.460 Well, no, so, so this is the issue, right?

01:15:13.020 Those studies were based upon whether a child was placed on puberty blockers or not.

01:15:16.540 When a child is placed on puberty blockers, they tend not to desist.

01:15:19.540 When a child is left alone, they tend to desist.

01:15:21.660 So the issue is then if, according to, you know, 10 perspective follow-up studies from child and adolescents found desistance ranging from 61 to 90%, then the safety of the children would lean towards non-intervention.

01:15:33.500 I, I, look, I'm, I'm, I'm, go ahead.

01:15:37.120 Again, we should probably agree to look at this, these kinds of studies before we're going to pull them up for a debate because what I am pulling up and what I'm referencing is inherently reputable.

01:15:48.380 And you can find any information that you want on the internet.

01:15:50.840 I am with a majority of doctors on this front.

01:15:54.060 There's, there is.

01:15:55.040 I mean, that's a broad statement.

01:15:55.880 I don't know about that.

01:15:56.680 No, no, no.

01:15:56.860 That is actually a fact.

01:15:58.400 That is a hundred percent.

01:15:59.420 Well, I've seen this movie before.

01:16:00.540 So what's happening is you're referencing detransition under a system where they wouldn't be put on puberty blockers necessarily.

01:16:06.920 And then they would go through the process hormone.

01:16:09.180 So everybody who would have desisted at the point of puberty, which is what you're referencing, is already excluded from her sample.

01:16:16.240 So like, and I don't even think you would disagree with that, that once they're actually past the point of puberty and they still think they're in the opposite body or whatever, and they go through the process, there's a very low detransition rate.

01:16:27.500 But you're specifically talking about desistance, and I remember this because this happened when you argue with the serfs.

01:16:32.900 This is what it boils down to.

01:16:34.160 I'm not a moralist.

01:16:35.360 I don't have like the arrogance to believe that my personal preferences for how my life would be lived should be imposed on other people.

01:16:42.800 I'm trying to make a argument for a case for, I'm trying to make a case for a broad set of policies that are going to make sure people are as happy as they can possibly be and can live their life to the fullest.

01:16:55.280 So if you want to impose your morality on people, it sounds like fundamentalism.

01:16:59.580 For me, I'm in favor of a real argument.

01:17:01.920 But if most, no, I am having a real argument.

01:17:04.640 You just said your morality is a study.

01:17:06.580 Oh, man.

01:17:07.420 Here's a study that shows desistance rates up to 95%.

01:17:09.960 Hold on.

01:17:10.840 Desistance rates are shown up to 95% with non-intervention.

01:17:13.320 So then we would lean towards non-intervention.

01:17:15.800 And you said you're a fundamentalist.

01:17:17.000 You didn't make an argument.

01:17:17.940 No, earlier you talked about how your morality is what you want to dictate in terms of this policy.

01:17:22.920 You see, this is what I was talking about with Sam.

01:17:25.700 Okay.

01:17:26.420 Right?

01:17:26.840 The inability to grasp philosophical concepts.

01:17:29.880 When I explain to you that you are opposed to parental rights because you're in favor of vaccine mandates, right, I don't think you can understand the duality of the statement you're making.

01:17:41.680 Are you in favor of parental rights can go in one of two moral directions?

01:17:45.000 You do have a moral stance.

01:17:46.060 I wasn't talking about parental rights.

01:17:49.400 I was using that as a way to talk about your statement on parental rights.

01:17:53.520 And I fully grasped concepts of morality, Tim.

01:17:56.740 And you want to impose that, then you too would be a fundamentalist and you've made a nonsensical statement.

01:18:01.200 I...

01:18:01.640 If you want to make an argument about why me using this data is incorrect, I'm all ears.

01:18:05.720 If you want to tell me I'm a fundamentalist...

01:18:06.520 I haven't seen the data, so I can't...

01:18:08.020 Well, then don't make an argument about it if you don't know the data.

01:18:09.940 No, I do know the data.

01:18:10.940 I use the American Journal of Pediatrics.

01:18:12.540 I don't know the data that you just pulled up.

01:18:14.200 You did not look up desistance rates.

01:18:16.280 You did not look up anything other than what fits your narrative.

01:18:19.020 Tim, what you just said is that you want your morality to dictate policy.

01:18:22.400 No, I didn't.

01:18:22.820 I want people to have freedom to do what they want.

01:18:25.480 That's just not true.

01:18:27.560 I said that everyone's view on a question like parental rights is dictated by their morality.

01:18:33.740 You do have one as well.

01:18:35.360 People have a moral framework.

01:18:36.860 You've told me that you're in favor of public health.

01:18:39.520 That is a moral stance.

01:18:40.920 So are you a fundamentalist?

01:18:43.540 Do you want to oppose your moral?

01:18:44.780 No, I talk about politics.

01:18:45.540 I don't talk about things that are so abstract.

01:18:47.900 I talk about what's...

01:18:48.300 You're in favor of vaccine mandates or not?

01:18:49.880 Of course.

01:18:50.740 That's a moral position.

01:18:52.540 Not a scientific one.

01:18:53.860 No, it is a public health position.

01:18:56.100 Well, it's...

01:18:57.500 Sure, your morality dictates that the government can impose a medication on people against their will.

01:19:01.580 Because I'm trying to create a society...

01:19:03.280 That's a moral question.

01:19:03.880 No, because I'm trying to create...

01:19:05.160 That's moral.

01:19:05.760 Sure, I think I am more moral.

01:19:07.680 But you just said you weren't.

01:19:08.740 You said you were not a moralist.

01:19:10.040 No, I'm not.

01:19:10.880 I am dealing in politics.

01:19:12.580 And politics can create outcomes that are moral or immoral.

01:19:17.820 And I'm dealing in the ones that I think will create the most...

01:19:20.860 So you're a moralist?

01:19:22.460 No.

01:19:22.680 Moralism, in the way that I was referencing it, is one that falls back on notions of fundamentalism

01:19:30.580 and imposing morality that is individual to you on the rest of society.

01:19:34.400 I'm not talking about imposing morality.

01:19:35.580 I am talking about creating a society, creating a society that gives people the freedom that

01:19:41.440 they...

01:19:42.000 Moralism.

01:19:43.200 That's politics, right?

01:19:43.860 You want to create a society that works towards a goal of your personal perspective.

01:19:51.840 What you are talking about is imposing your narrow set of ideas about how society should

01:19:58.680 be or how things...

01:19:59.940 Based on the scientific research I pulled up.

01:20:01.060 No, not...

01:20:01.900 No, it's...

01:20:02.620 No, I literally pulled a study up.

01:20:03.280 No, you want to restrict people's ability to do what they want to do with their bodies.

01:20:06.760 That's what you want to do.

01:20:07.780 Do you think that people should cut their hands off?

01:20:09.820 I don't deal in abstract, ridiculous hypotheticals because I deal in reality.

01:20:15.180 I cover politics.

01:20:15.880 So you're in favor of female genital circumcision?

01:20:18.300 That doesn't happen in the United States.

01:20:19.740 How much do I bet?

01:20:20.720 How much do you...

01:20:21.200 No, you're wrong.

01:20:22.140 It does happen.

01:20:22.600 There are very small amounts.

01:20:23.920 I am not in favor of it.

01:20:24.320 So you're in favor of it?

01:20:25.320 I wouldn't...

01:20:25.940 Do you want to restrict what people do with their own children?

01:20:27.760 You're against parental rights?

01:20:28.880 That's not the same thing.

01:20:30.400 Is a doctor...

01:20:31.320 Is a doctor...

01:20:32.740 You want to talk about Dearborn, Michigan?

01:20:34.540 I've actually gone there and done the research.

01:20:36.000 I've actually done the boots on the ground journalism in this story.

01:20:38.260 Okay?

01:20:38.900 Yes.

01:20:39.320 Oh, wow.

01:20:39.820 Yeah, right.

01:20:40.340 Because female circumcision is a bad thing.

01:20:42.820 We do not want these things to be happening.

01:20:44.540 And even the parents were going to doctors to get it prescribed.

01:20:47.160 There are limits.

01:20:48.360 There's the famous story of the Kennedy.

01:20:49.620 They got the...

01:20:50.320 What is it?

01:20:50.600 The Kennedy got it lobotomized because the doctors prescribed it.

01:20:53.040 Just because there's current scientific research that leans one direction doesn't mean

01:20:56.920 we move absolutely in one direction.

01:20:59.440 What we have here is a very prominent set of studies, which we've referenced on the show

01:21:03.280 numerous times, showing desistance rates for minors who do not receive intervention

01:21:07.680 in terms of affirmation or gender sex change is upwards of 95%, in which case science dictates

01:21:14.680 we do not intervene.

01:21:15.960 If you want to take the 5% chance that we then intervene in these children's lives, and

01:21:20.500 that can result in even one kid being harmed, that sounds like an immoral action.

01:21:23.860 Now, these are extremely specific hypotheticals that you are maximizing in this current instance.

01:21:28.520 And I am interested in creating a society that is not, not, that is, yes, moral, but it's

01:21:34.200 based on outcomes, not just...

01:21:36.280 That's what I just pulled up.

01:21:38.300 I mean, I can read to you again.

01:21:39.720 Right, but pull up the American Pediatrics study.

01:21:42.800 Can I ask a hypothetical while you pulled that up?

01:21:45.780 If it is true that prescribing puberty blockers prevents people from hitting that point of

01:21:52.020 puberty where they would decide, and largely they would decide to desist, right, when they

01:21:57.020 hit the point of puberty, would you be in favor of removing that from the gender protocol?

01:22:01.020 Because this only is talking about desistance at the point of puberty.

01:22:05.060 So, like, what he's concerned about is that if you stop people from going through puberty,

01:22:08.580 you stop the changes in their bodies and all that, and then they can't, like, rationally

01:22:12.040 make that choice because they haven't hit that point in their development.

01:22:14.580 I don't have the kind of, I guess, arrogance, I would say, to know that I know more about...

01:22:20.840 I mean, I asked you a hypothetical, like, hypothetically.

01:22:22.940 Right, but again, this is exactly what reactionary conservatives do.

01:22:26.720 You know, it's a red flag for them on Nick's arguments.

01:22:28.740 As you deal with hypotheticals, because when you actually deal with the practical reality

01:22:33.000 and the outcomes that you're dealing with and that you're prescribing onto society, it

01:22:37.480 creates an inherently unjust society.

01:22:39.240 You know, as the right-wing conservative Destiny said recently when he was debating the left-wing

01:22:44.680 pro-lifers, it is a definite red flag when somebody is unwilling completely to engage

01:22:50.240 with the hypothetical.

01:22:51.100 If you want to say why the hypothetical doesn't apply, that is totally fine.

01:22:54.380 No, because I want to talk about reality.

01:22:55.600 But for you to just, like, say, oh, it's a hypothetical, I can't talk about it, as if

01:22:57.900 you don't know what a thought experiment is, it's kind of odd.

01:23:00.740 Look, I've asked you, we have here, I literally just pulled up detransition Wikipedia, we pulled

01:23:04.780 up this study, that shows that without intervention, desistance rates are from 61 to 98%.

01:23:10.000 And here I have general acceptance of standards of care.

01:23:12.600 The overwhelming weight of medical authority supports treatment of transgender patients

01:23:16.040 Oh, that's not the difference what I'm talking about.

01:23:16.980 That's not the difference what I'm talking about.

01:23:17.020 With GnRH agonists and cross-sex hormones in appropriate circumstances.

01:23:21.700 Organizations who have formally recognized this include American Academy of Pediatrics,

01:23:25.440 American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, American Academy of Family Physicians,

01:23:29.860 American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American College of Physicians, American Medical

01:23:34.880 Association, American Pediatric Association, dozens and dozens of the most-

01:23:38.260 Remember when doctors said Smokin was good for you?

01:23:41.000 You're not citing science, you're citing government approval.

01:23:44.060 No, I'm not.

01:23:44.940 I am citing-

01:23:45.720 And that's fine.

01:23:46.900 What does the government have to do with it?

01:23:48.600 These are medical organizations.

01:23:50.140 Okay, sure, sure.

01:23:50.880 Fair point.

01:23:51.440 You're citing medical organizations, despite the fact that there have been numerous instances

01:23:55.460 throughout history, in fact, basically all of them, where we've been like, hey, we were

01:23:58.640 wrong about that.

01:23:59.280 Like, maybe we shouldn't drink mercury if you get syphilis.

01:24:01.480 But what I'm referring to specifically is, if there is no intervention of a trans child,

01:24:06.040 desistance rates are from 61 to 98%, showing the majority of kids are better off not receiving

01:24:11.500 No, look, I mean, you're on detransition Wikipedia.

01:24:14.100 I just listed a list of dozens of half a dozen-

01:24:16.580 Again, he mentioned desistance, not detransition.

01:24:18.940 This is, like, very important that we nail down what we're talking about.

01:24:21.760 Yeah, right, what I'm saying is, if you have a trans child, or a child who is suffering

01:24:26.540 from gender identity disorder or dysphoria, and you do nothing, there is a 61 to 98% chance

01:24:34.440 they age out of it and grow up and are happy and fine.

01:24:38.260 That's made up.

01:24:39.280 It's literally right there.

01:24:40.820 What are you talking about?

01:24:41.720 On Wikipedia.

01:24:42.580 At the point of puberty.

01:24:43.180 No, I pulled up the NIH and he said, you can pull up anything.

01:24:45.960 Yeah, so here you go.

01:24:46.940 NIH.gov.

01:24:47.520 Tim.

01:24:47.880 Here you go.

01:24:48.320 Tim.

01:24:48.600 Are you happy?

01:24:49.500 Tim.

01:24:49.800 NIH.gov.

01:24:50.600 Deal with what I just said about the level of medical organizations.

01:24:54.660 That's fine.

01:24:54.820 You're saying that they're all wrong and that you have some sort of, like, special knowledge

01:24:58.760 that you can supersede their expertise.

01:25:01.920 No, he's not.

01:25:02.480 You're cherry-packing American organizations.

01:25:04.080 And you're making the appeal to authority.

01:25:05.280 I just, first of all, I just cited one from the Netherlands, but American Academy of Pediatrics,

01:25:10.300 American Academy of Child and...

01:25:11.720 Appeal to authority.

01:25:12.180 Appeal to authority.

01:25:12.960 Keep going.

01:25:13.220 No, I mean...

01:25:13.820 But not even that.

01:25:14.380 I've got...

01:25:14.860 But I'm not a medical authority and neither are you.

01:25:17.240 So why wouldn't you appeal to the authority?

01:25:18.120 What I can do is point to a study and say, wow, if this study is true, I'm opposed to

01:25:21.320 this.

01:25:21.860 Right?

01:25:22.220 But there's also all these European organizations that are getting rid of this specific practice

01:25:25.840 that he's focusing on, which is the puberty blockers, and, like, for some reason, they're

01:25:29.300 not on your list, which is interesting.

01:25:30.500 No, we are properly assessing when intervention is appropriate here.

01:25:34.660 I mean, it's pretty obvious.

01:25:35.960 But why would they suspend in these better healthcare systems in Europe?

01:25:39.220 Why would they suspend this specific practice that we're arguing about?

01:25:41.480 I mean, you listed Sweden and Finland, and they've just elected far-right governments.

01:25:45.400 But, um...

01:25:46.000 I mean...

01:25:46.880 But anyway, like, again, this is what I'm interested in talking about in terms of politics.

01:25:50.600 I want to create a more equitable society for people.

01:25:52.900 We should have socialized healthcare, Medicare for all.

01:25:55.100 You should talk about that more on your program.

01:25:56.440 You say you're in favor of it.

01:25:57.420 I haven't really seen...

01:25:58.640 I haven't seen much.

01:26:00.340 When you guys cherry-pick stuff to talk about music or whatever...

01:26:02.480 No, no, we should talk about ending child...

01:26:04.200 I mean, it's funny.

01:26:05.260 You should talk about ending child poverty.

01:26:06.320 But you could have talked about my position on universal healthcare any one of these times.

01:26:09.060 You never do.

01:26:09.880 Why?

01:26:10.160 It's not going to get traffic for you.

01:26:11.660 Well, I mean, you don't clip anything about universal healthcare.

01:26:14.900 You should focus more on it.

01:26:16.000 And then we would focus on it.

01:26:18.140 Because, like, when are we going to be like, for no reason, let's just make a universal healthcare thing?

01:26:22.340 What we try to do in real time is correct right-wing lies, whether it's you or Dave Rubin or Stephen Crowder.

01:26:29.000 We do talk about abortion a lot.

01:26:30.700 We do.

01:26:31.080 What's my abortion position?

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01:27:29.540 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:27:35.180 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

01:27:44.500 Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs.

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01:27:56.800 Did I mention that we care?

01:28:00.540 I'm not sure.

01:28:01.600 Why?

01:28:02.320 You've not watched any of the 8,000 segments we've done on it?

01:28:04.640 I mean, I do know that you called that 10-year-old case a hoax, a political hoax.

01:28:09.140 The political maneuvers around it to change the law was a hoax.

01:28:11.780 Yeah.

01:28:12.020 Sure.

01:28:12.780 So, well, how do you not know my position on abortion?

01:28:15.720 I mean, you watch the show.

01:28:16.960 You watch at any point.

01:28:17.760 You can see the arguments we have.

01:28:18.840 I don't have a ton of time to watch all your shows.

01:28:20.580 You specifically covered his episode with the serfs where they talked about it in depth.

01:28:24.080 So it's weird that you don't know.

01:28:24.980 Well, reiterate your abortion position for me and I'll respond to it.

01:28:27.820 Okay.

01:28:28.280 In what way?

01:28:28.800 I think Roe v. Wade was the right decision.

01:28:30.720 Okay.

01:28:31.260 I think that life should be protected under the Constitution at the federal level and that

01:28:37.300 it probably does make sense for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, but that means

01:28:41.840 Congress needs to codify it.

01:28:43.640 Okay.

01:28:43.900 But that's not going to happen.

01:28:45.220 And that's because we don't have a different question because we need filibuster reform.

01:28:48.900 So I'm not really interested in process.

01:28:51.140 I'm interested in outcomes as we get back to, again, the differences that we clearly have

01:28:56.320 here.

01:28:56.580 I don't really care who imposes the right to abortion in this country.

01:29:01.380 I just care that we have a right to abortion in this country and we don't.

01:29:03.640 Well, right.

01:29:03.920 Yeah.

01:29:04.020 I think at first when Roe v. Wade was overturned, I thought that it was probably good it would

01:29:08.080 go to legislation because the Supreme Court arbitrarily setting law is probably dangerous.

01:29:16.800 But however, since then, I've looked at it and said, it's a 14th Amendment question,

01:29:20.780 the right to life.

01:29:22.380 And looking back on that now and understanding Roe v. Wade actually was a pretty good decision.

01:29:29.160 I think now at this point, you'd need some kind of codification.

01:29:31.740 I don't know how the Supreme Court's going to go back on it, but it's a political conversation,

01:29:34.320 not a personal perspective on abortion.

01:29:37.440 So my view is pre-viability, it's individual discretion.

01:29:41.460 Post-viability, it's probably going to require some kind of, depending on the circumstances.

01:29:46.720 Where do you draw the line of viability?

01:29:48.420 Can the baby survive on its own?

01:29:50.180 Okay.

01:29:50.660 Well, 90% of abortions happen in the first trimester, which is the first 12 weeks.

01:29:55.560 99% happen in the first 20 weeks.

01:29:58.100 The rest that happen, the 1% that you're talking about, which is overrepresented constantly for

01:30:02.540 fear-mongering purposes, is the 1% that happen when the life of the mother is in danger

01:30:07.440 or there's a issue with the fetus.

01:30:09.680 Well, there's no question.

01:30:10.240 So there's no need to parse and draw arbitrary lines because what that does is it essentially,

01:30:16.700 especially with rape and incest exemptions, which you speak about, it makes it seem like-

01:30:22.360 I'm not in favor of incest exemptions.

01:30:23.980 Okay.

01:30:24.500 The one that we spoke about earlier, okay?

01:30:27.040 I'm not even speaking about your specific opinion about this.

01:30:30.280 I'm talking generally about the notions of abortion.

01:30:32.280 You can't have rape and incest exemptions because it takes so long to prove those cases that it

01:30:38.920 would completely nullify the need for an abortion because as the pregnancy is going along, you

01:30:45.460 would be unable to perform the abortion in the time that it takes to prove that kind of

01:30:50.140 stuff.

01:30:50.380 So when that stuff is put into legislation, what it does is it waters down and makes to

01:30:55.900 the public, it makes the public seem like, oh, we're not so barbaric.

01:31:01.540 That's why we should not be intervening in what doctors and patients are doing.

01:31:07.100 I want people to be empowered over their own healthcare.

01:31:09.780 Same thing with trans kids.

01:31:11.720 So you disagree with Roe v. Wade?

01:31:12.420 Same thing with abortion.

01:31:13.460 Sorry?

01:31:13.940 Do you disagree with Roe v. Wade in that regard?

01:31:15.560 Well, no.

01:31:16.380 I want there to be an abortion.

01:31:18.180 Would you prefer Roe v. Wade stood?

01:31:20.480 Of course.

01:31:21.520 So then you would be against abortion after a certain amount of time?

01:31:26.180 I mean, Roe v. Wade essentially created a viability standard, right?

01:31:31.700 So then you have a 14th Amendment question, whereas you would need some kind of government

01:31:36.400 intervention post-viability.

01:31:37.840 Yeah, I believe that doctors should be able to make these determinations and it should

01:31:43.160 not be.

01:31:43.680 We should have a right to an abortion broadly and doctors can make a decision.

01:31:47.580 Real quick, I think you're in favor of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

01:31:50.560 No, I'm not, because I would never want to overturn something to go backwards and then

01:31:54.660 bring it up to the legislature where we have crazies and Republican nut jobs in the Senate

01:31:59.840 and there's a filibuster that doesn't provide us with the ability to codify it.

01:32:03.920 Because of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, you now have states like Colorado removing

01:32:06.840 restrictions.

01:32:07.840 No, no, no.

01:32:08.700 This is inaccurate.

01:32:09.700 So Roe v. Wade protected at a constitutional level up to the second trimester for elective

01:32:15.380 abortions.

01:32:16.440 And then afterwards, it was up to the states.

01:32:18.860 So like, okay, so it's even so like they Colorado could have extended this prior to in

01:32:22.640 fact, Andrew Cuomo did this before.

01:32:24.840 So like, just to clarify that.

01:32:27.080 Okay, never mind.

01:32:27.780 I stand corrected.

01:32:28.480 I thought that it was because I remember reading.

01:32:30.780 Um, what was the guy's name?

01:32:32.520 He wrote about 14 of them and kicks in upon viability.

01:32:35.560 And then you have a constitutional right to life and all of these things.

01:32:38.140 And there's questions around that.

01:32:39.340 Colorado may have passed that law in response to Roe v.

01:32:42.300 Wade, but they weren't prohibited from doing so before.

01:32:45.300 It's because Roe v.

01:32:46.320 Wade says at this point, the states have no issue.

01:32:49.560 It's a constitutional issue.

01:32:50.820 And then third trimester, which is why Roe v.

01:32:53.160 Wade constitutionally is a ridiculous decision.

01:32:55.480 They're like, it's a state's rights issue.

01:32:56.920 Because, you know, the constitution obviously delegates the trimesters in the 57th amendment

01:33:01.440 somewhere.

01:33:02.280 And again, Tim, like the reality is, is I don't like, you know, you've been perfectly nice

01:33:06.900 to me here.

01:33:07.660 I don't really care about you personally.

01:33:08.900 I care what, when you say things that are harmful and wrong, like the hoax statement about

01:33:15.160 that was wrong.

01:33:15.920 That was an opinion.

01:33:17.180 It was wrong.

01:33:18.280 It was completely factually inaccurate.

01:33:20.540 It's not factually.

01:33:21.100 You called it a hoax because you know that your audience is going to feed into it.

01:33:24.860 And then you parse it later.

01:33:26.260 So you have plausible about it.

01:33:28.720 But specifically what I said was, yeah, and we talk about it in depth.

01:33:32.120 I think the issue is just you don't watch the show.

01:33:33.600 To be fair, I don't watch majority report.

01:33:35.920 But if like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to come out here and be like, you said this

01:33:39.140 one time, this one thing.

01:33:39.960 I've not watched the show.

01:33:40.620 So I don't know exactly what you're talking about.

01:33:42.160 But I said, yeah, the idea that you would take a tragic circumstance like this and then

01:33:47.580 create a political story, put out to the super PACs to try and change laws.

01:33:51.960 That's a hoax.

01:33:52.840 Yeah.

01:33:53.220 Well, okay.

01:33:53.800 How about the fact that you called the shooter in the neo-Nazi Texas shooter who watched your

01:34:00.540 program, you called that a false flag.

01:34:02.660 Because you don't even know anything about that story.

01:34:04.560 I do.

01:34:04.820 It was four clips of the episode and you can see in the images he wasn't even subscribed

01:34:07.700 to the channel.

01:34:08.820 Yeah, but he watched your show.

01:34:10.140 No, no, no.

01:34:10.640 He didn't.

01:34:11.140 He watched one guy.

01:34:12.260 Yeah.

01:34:12.420 Have you ever went to those time codes?

01:34:13.820 He was highlighting specific, and I won't name the guests from the guests.

01:34:17.500 But he did watch your show.

01:34:18.820 So you're saying he watched an episode?

01:34:20.940 Sure.

01:34:21.540 But do you understand why?

01:34:22.620 And he posted about it.

01:34:24.000 Who was that one guy who watched the majority report and then commented on what Sam did?

01:34:27.640 Why do you think that that, but he, no, this was a neo-Nazi.

01:34:30.380 Why do you think your content appeals to neo-Nazis?

01:34:32.480 Are you kidding me right now?

01:34:35.180 No, I'm just wondering why you think that.

01:34:37.500 Have you ever heard?

01:34:37.900 Okay, I'm going to do something I don't normally do, but that was an egregious over-the-line

01:34:41.860 statement where I don't know if you are intentionally trying to just generate clips that are nonsensical

01:34:48.040 or you're just really that stupid.

01:34:49.280 Oh, man.

01:34:50.620 The idea that because a Nazi watched your show, your show appeals to Nazis is like, look, if

01:34:59.140 you want to have a real conversation, we have a real conversation.

01:35:01.620 If you want to come up here and do exactly what the majority, though, you want to do what

01:35:04.740 the majority report does and exactly why Sam isn't welcome on my and many other shows,

01:35:08.700 feel free to do it.

01:35:09.940 And I'm willing to have you on here.

01:35:11.580 Did you know that, you know that, like, I don't know about you specifically, but this

01:35:15.180 is exactly why people don't like your show.

01:35:18.160 Okay?

01:35:18.700 I think people like our show.

01:35:19.820 Yeah, maybe ask why some of these higher profile personalities and networks won't have

01:35:23.360 Sam on anymore.

01:35:24.580 Because they're afraid of him.

01:35:25.860 Oh, they're afraid of him.

01:35:26.820 How about it's because you just claimed that my show appeals to Nazis, which it clearly

01:35:31.620 doesn't.

01:35:32.020 He watched your show.

01:35:32.280 No, because this show is predominantly like moderate libertarian leaning types.

01:35:35.980 No, you say that and that you say that because you're trying to draw a line and make the really

01:35:41.920 far right people that watch your show feel like their positions are a little bit more

01:35:46.640 close to the mainstream than they actually are.

01:35:48.600 Okay, let's say for let's say for so you call you called it a false flag.

01:35:53.120 And then when you were proven wrong the next day, you said you thought it was funny.

01:35:58.340 Called what a false flag?

01:35:59.340 You called the claims that the neo-Nazi shooter watched your show a false flag.

01:36:07.080 I don't know if I said that.

01:36:08.980 That sounds awfully specific.

01:36:11.200 I don't have the exact quote in front of me, Tim.

01:36:13.760 So you don't know what I said?

01:36:15.000 Where did you hear that?

01:36:15.640 Yes, I do.

01:36:16.120 I listened to you.

01:36:17.040 Did you say something like it sounds like I said it sounds like a psyop to have this

01:36:21.320 profile appear one day after the shooting where it's got like a bunch of screenshots on

01:36:25.660 it or something?

01:36:28.000 Sure.

01:36:28.660 It really does sound to me like someone told you to say things and you don't know what

01:36:32.040 you're referencing.

01:36:33.580 I'm not shocked that that is the only way that you're going to try to react to this.

01:36:38.160 To react to what?

01:36:39.080 Like, okay, no, this is fairly obvious.

01:36:40.720 So I'm willing to bet Sam was like, hey, ask him about this and say these exact things.

01:36:43.980 No, I came up with, I mean.

01:36:44.680 Come up with original thoughts.

01:36:45.680 Come on.

01:36:45.840 It is my original thought.

01:36:47.260 No, it isn't.

01:36:47.940 Some guy posts a screenshot of one episode of a show he's not subscribed to, and you

01:36:53.320 think that's an attack vector for something political, but it's a personal snipe that

01:36:56.380 has no bearing on any of the arguments we've made the entire show.

01:36:59.780 I disagree.

01:37:00.860 You disagree with what?

01:37:02.100 With what?

01:37:02.560 Elaborate.

01:37:03.100 I disagree that it has no bearing on what you've said throughout your entire show.

01:37:07.480 Like what?

01:37:07.800 What did I say?

01:37:09.340 This was the claim that you made.

01:37:11.680 Let's hear it.

01:37:12.040 I believe that your program appeals to a right-wing audience, and there's a reason

01:37:17.580 that the neo-Nazi shooter watched your program.

01:37:20.460 And how do you know he watched the program?

01:37:21.900 Because he posted about it.

01:37:23.140 What did he post?

01:37:24.800 Tim.

01:37:25.180 What did he post?

01:37:26.340 He posted parts of an interview that you did.

01:37:29.420 No, he didn't.

01:37:30.000 You're wrong.

01:37:30.480 He had four screenshots on his phone from the same episode.

01:37:32.660 You don't even know what you're talking about, and all you can do is laugh and say,

01:37:36.160 No, it's because you get specific to obscure the fact.

01:37:38.160 Some guy posted one thing one time, and that's the only argument you have.

01:37:42.560 Did you go to the time codes that were in that episode?

01:37:45.100 Because I did.

01:37:45.740 I ran this down.

01:37:46.560 And one of them was a clip of Elijah Schaefer.

01:37:49.160 And like weirdly, for this like neo-Nazi Hispanic shooter, he, like it's Elijah saying

01:37:54.960 that we shouldn't be emphasizing race specifically.

01:37:57.960 No, no, he's a neo-Nazi Hispanic shooter.

01:37:59.700 Right, but Tim called it a false flag and then corrected himself the next day and then

01:38:03.100 said he thought it was funny after a mass shooting.

01:38:06.160 I think that, I mean, people were calling you to say this, and you don't actually know

01:38:09.680 what you're talking about.

01:38:10.320 But I think that it's not shocking that you think that based on my gender.

01:38:13.680 Okay, you're not saying anything anymore.

01:38:15.220 But like I screen grab when I, because I do YouTube clips, so I will screen grab a time

01:38:19.360 code so I know where to go later.

01:38:21.000 So like when I saw that, I knew, or I had a feeling because obviously he's dead.

01:38:25.220 So, or was he captured or was he killed?

01:38:27.680 I think he was killed.

01:38:28.180 Yeah, so he's dead.

01:38:29.140 So he can't tell us.

01:38:30.160 But like, I think people screenshot, because this is why I do it, and you can find them

01:38:33.780 in my phone, moments in things so that they can go back and reference that clip.

01:38:37.620 And I ran down both of those time codes.

01:38:39.740 Neither one.

01:38:40.340 I get it.

01:38:40.740 But look, man, this is the majority report.

01:38:42.640 Yeah, but it is why.

01:38:43.680 It is a nasty smear.

01:38:44.700 Like you're doing it on purpose.

01:38:45.960 And it's not a political statement.

01:38:47.200 It's not a political argument.

01:38:48.440 You're like, he watched an episode of her show.

01:38:50.640 I'm sorry, of his show.

01:38:52.000 Like that's.

01:38:52.400 There was that one guy who posted Sam Seder a whole bunch.

01:38:54.820 Remember the guy who killed all those people at the bar in Ohio?

01:38:57.920 I don't remember that case.

01:38:59.220 Why did that guy watch Sam Seder so much?

01:39:01.740 Why did Gavin?

01:39:02.100 Why do you guys appeal to mass shooters?

01:39:04.160 Why do mass shooters?

01:39:04.960 There's a quality.

01:39:05.540 Talk about Sam Seder being so inspirational to them.

01:39:07.760 Why did, why did Gavin?

01:39:08.920 Why is Emma Vigeland inspiring mass shooters?

01:39:12.500 Why did Gavin?

01:39:13.280 Why are you okay with, with, with porn being shown to children?

01:39:16.740 Look, if you want to have, if you want to make, play a game of nonsense statements for

01:39:19.700 political brownie points, feel free to do so.

01:39:21.560 But I'll say it again.

01:39:22.080 Tim, I didn't mean to upset you.

01:39:24.820 This is exactly why Sam is not welcome on my show, but it's not something that I just

01:39:30.360 one day was like, you know what I'm, no, it's because I had serious conversations with

01:39:33.900 networks and other high profile individuals.

01:39:35.620 And I love, can you name the high profile individuals?

01:39:38.800 That's their business.

01:39:39.520 But I absolutely love how the response is they're scared of Sam.

01:39:42.320 It's like, no, they despise him.

01:39:43.780 He's a bad faith actor who do, who does exactly what you just did.

01:39:47.420 We're having a conversation about scientific research data, my position on what I like about

01:39:51.620 the Sandus.

01:39:52.060 And then you go, your show's for neo-Nazis.

01:39:53.840 It's like, okay, dude, are you stupid?

01:39:56.620 I'm just stating facts.

01:39:57.980 Okay, this is like lowbrow.

01:40:00.360 This is what, this is why you guys have 170 Dave Rubin videos.

01:40:03.540 Do you think the average person cares about Dave Rubin?

01:40:06.340 No, but you guys get clicks by doing it.

01:40:08.740 Hey, how about you guys run a video about how Tim Pool is, got into an argument with a

01:40:12.520 pro-lifer about how he's in favor of pro-choice policy.

01:40:15.100 You didn't run that, did you?

01:40:16.260 Because you guys are grifters.

01:40:17.740 This is what you do.

01:40:18.640 I can invite you on for a real conversation.

01:40:20.640 And what do you do?

01:40:21.300 Your show's for neo-Nazis.

01:40:22.380 This is why you guys don't get invited places, because you're not having real conversations.

01:40:25.880 I don't really care about getting invited places.

01:40:27.940 Yeah, right.

01:40:28.380 So go live in your grifter echo chamber where you guys can play songs with bad audio and

01:40:31.720 then say, whoopsie.

01:40:32.900 I'm sorry, that audio thing really upset you.

01:40:35.280 Wait, have you ever covered the Gavin?

01:40:35.940 What upsets me is, when I talk about Ronda Sanders making fake things to trick people, and that's

01:40:42.060 what you guys do, it's kind of like, yeah, how about that?

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01:42:12.500 Do AI images?

01:42:14.440 When you run audio that sounds bad to make a nonsensical video where you're like,

01:42:19.320 Tim Pool sounds like Nickelback.

01:42:20.600 It's like, what you're doing is just trying to generate rage drama.

01:42:25.680 It is internet blood sports level garbage.

01:42:28.120 It doesn't answer any questions about the questions of pro-life and pro-choice, progressive

01:42:31.820 tax policy.

01:42:33.020 It doesn't answer questions about how we're going to protect or we're going to help kids.

01:42:36.480 All it does is drum up support from your base so they can hoot and holler and give you

01:42:40.540 clicks.

01:42:40.840 Then you complain, we can't get any advertisers.

01:42:43.460 Maybe it's because you make low-brow drama garbage.

01:42:45.740 No, I mean, the first hour of our program is the one that's free.

01:42:49.500 For neo-Nazis, you mean?

01:42:50.300 The one where that mass shooter watched Majority Report?

01:42:52.140 Is that what you're talking about?

01:42:52.780 The first hour of our program will usually have Social Security and Medicare kind of

01:42:58.740 discussions or will essentially talk to an expert on, say, policy in Latin America, that

01:43:04.960 kind of thing.

01:43:05.920 The stuff that's behind the paywall and then gets clipped is stuff where we respond to

01:43:09.320 right-wingers.

01:43:10.060 We want to get into the-

01:43:11.040 He got really mad when I said that he got kicked off of Bob's Burgers.

01:43:14.700 Oh, no, that's funny.

01:43:16.660 You know he was joking, right?

01:43:18.100 He was being sarcastic.

01:43:19.260 I didn't watch the clip.

01:43:20.040 I just know that.

01:43:20.600 Yeah, he was hilarious.

01:43:22.420 First of all, the creator is one of his best friends.

01:43:25.940 Sam's like-

01:43:27.220 Sam came to me and said he was upset that they were moving his role from the show.

01:43:31.660 I think he was joking.

01:43:33.540 But used to be at TYT, and Gavin Long, who was the Bat Roo shooter, watched, reposted,

01:43:39.520 and did reactions to Young Turks videos.

01:43:42.120 A lot of them were straight misinformation.

01:43:43.860 There was one in particular where they were going after a cop who slammed a woman, which

01:43:48.220 probably a cop acted inappropriately, but they wildly speculated that it was a black woman.

01:43:52.580 It turned out to be a white woman.

01:43:53.760 And there was a call in the video of like, what do you do if you see a pregnant black

01:44:00.000 woman being assaulted by a cop?

01:44:01.860 Gavin Long said he's going to step up.

01:44:03.880 You can watch these videos.

01:44:04.860 They're available online.

01:44:05.820 And he shot four cops.

01:44:07.100 Yeah, I mean, that wasn't my comment.

01:44:08.720 What about-

01:44:09.180 No, no, hold on.

01:44:09.780 I didn't say it was your commentary, but you're saying screenshots on this guy's phone.

01:44:14.620 Big problem.

01:44:15.560 I got to bring it up right here.

01:44:16.860 But have you ever covered at all what inspired Gavin Long?

01:44:19.720 Uh, cause-

01:44:21.220 He killed four police officers.

01:44:22.680 Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't, I, that wasn't my coverage.

01:44:25.420 So I don't know.

01:44:25.960 I was based in New York.

01:44:26.460 What about the guy in Dallas?

01:44:27.460 Remember him?

01:44:28.300 Uh, that was, that was a different, uh, show.

01:44:29.960 No, I'm sorry.

01:44:30.680 I really didn't mean to trigger you.

01:44:31.800 I'm sorry.

01:44:32.580 No, I'm just, but I'm just curious where your standards are.

01:44:34.760 Like, have you gone after the host on the Young Turks for that one?

01:44:37.860 She's clip harvesting, clip farming.

01:44:38.860 Is that what you're doing?

01:44:39.800 I don't know what you mean.

01:44:41.180 Like, okay.

01:44:42.400 Your demeanor changes before the show to, to, uh, all of a sudden now you're going, what

01:44:46.340 do you mean?

01:44:46.720 I'm so sorry.

01:44:47.280 I triggered you.

01:44:47.980 Oh, geez.

01:44:48.520 Well, I mean, I get it.

01:44:49.220 You guys are going to make clips.

01:44:50.300 I'm trying to do-

01:44:50.680 You guys are lowbrow grifter drama garbage.

01:44:52.740 I'm trying to just speak in a calming tone.

01:44:54.780 So maybe that you calms you down a little bit.

01:44:56.980 You want to talk about policy or do you want to just insult people?

01:44:59.820 I, I would love to talk about policy.

01:45:01.820 So, so, uh, continue Sean.

01:45:03.800 Yeah.

01:45:04.140 So the, if, if, if screenshots, which are of clips that weren't even him speaking is

01:45:10.100 Tim pool, inspiring the shooter, then how come you've like never done this commentary

01:45:13.780 at a place you used to work at of direct inspiration.

01:45:16.260 Like he saw a clip cuts to himself saying, I'm going to step up because I'm the real one.

01:45:20.980 I've never heard of this.

01:45:22.500 So that's interesting that you never heard of it.

01:45:23.920 Well, so, so it happened.

01:45:25.020 Why do you think it, why do you think it is that your former program appealed to mass

01:45:27.800 shooters so much?

01:45:29.560 I cover right-wingers and I know that right-wing terrorism in this country dwarves.

01:45:33.800 Any kind of left-wing terrorism by like a nine to one figure, I might be underestimating

01:45:38.080 because I cover right, the real threat in this country, which is right-wing terrorism.

01:45:41.640 Sure.

01:45:41.820 So I'll ask again, I guess, like, why do you think it is this mass shooter was inspired

01:45:44.460 by your former program?

01:45:45.800 I would have to look into it to, to make a smarter comment on it.

01:45:48.180 Do you feel bad that he was inspired directly and admitted he was?

01:45:51.280 I, sure.

01:45:52.380 I mean, I, I, again, I, it's not.

01:45:54.300 Do you take responsibility?

01:45:55.040 It wasn't even my program.

01:45:56.140 I worked there, but yeah.

01:45:57.580 So you were, you were, you were providing material support.

01:45:59.840 Well, I don't know if she was there at the time to be fair to you.

01:46:02.960 I don't think I was.

01:46:04.020 But I will say, um, it is interesting because the Young Turks did cover this shooting.

01:46:07.820 And even though, again, reacted specifically to Young Turks videos covering the cops very

01:46:13.020 poorly, propaganda inspired him to commit this violence, in my opinion.

01:46:16.420 If you want to talk about the Young Turks, you should talk to them.

01:46:18.540 I would love to at some point in my life.

01:46:20.620 But, so he does this, but the Young Turks coverage of it called him just a sovereign

01:46:24.400 citizen.

01:46:25.280 So this would be categorized as that right-wing terrorism, even though he was inspired by a

01:46:29.620 news organization, specifically left-wing figures.

01:46:32.180 I'll do it.

01:46:32.480 I'll do a semi-segue and I'll talk about, you know, what, what irks me is like the Burisma

01:46:36.960 scandal, for instance, you know, any, any kind of reasonable assessment over the story

01:46:41.860 pre-Hunter Biden anything is pretty, is pretty shocking, but it's not something you see in

01:46:47.160 any of these quote unquote left-wing media sources for like no reason.

01:46:51.340 I think the, the, the best example is it is so omitted from the narrative that when we

01:46:56.500 had Hunter Avalon on the show, he didn't even believe that Joe Biden admitted to, to

01:47:00.840 engaging in the quid pro quo.

01:47:02.400 And so I played the video for him, you know, so, so what, what, what's troublesome is.

01:47:07.480 What are you talking about?

01:47:08.400 He's talking about the fire, the prosecutor clip from Joe Biden specifically.

01:47:12.220 If you, but I'm not surprised you're not familiar with it, right?

01:47:13.780 It's, it's, it's, it doesn't exist in the leftist echo chamber.

01:47:16.100 Well, I, it's funny.

01:47:17.600 You just call it the leftist echo chamber.

01:47:19.180 I mean, I am a consumer of leftist news wing news sources, but also I read right-wing

01:47:25.700 ones just to check in on it, uh, centrist news organizations.

01:47:29.740 I think this is a very, very specific echo chamber that I can't speak to.

01:47:34.080 Um, the Burisma thing, I, I, I look, I'm not going to defend Joe Biden.

01:47:38.880 I mean, I'm a leftist.

01:47:40.400 I'm to the left of Joe Biden, but this story, I mean, it's pretty much a nothing burger.

01:47:45.420 Uh, the Durham investigation essentially had, I'm not the Durham, sorry, I misspoke.

01:47:52.060 The investigation being done in the house right now is like looking into the whistleblower

01:47:57.880 who's suspiciously gone missing.

01:48:00.100 And they have an FBI tip for 17 different calls between Hunter Biden and this oligarch.

01:48:05.320 It's all completely gobbledygook made up, but at the same time, why are you defending

01:48:11.860 Joe Biden like that?

01:48:12.920 Like, why don't, why don't just say, yeah, sure.

01:48:14.600 Well, I'd love to criticize him on things that I think are actually real.

01:48:17.980 Like the fact that he's continued Trump's border policy and ramped it up, honestly,

01:48:22.880 with title 42, where he did, he did, uh, sunset that because it was a part of the emergency

01:48:28.540 and during COVID, but he's largely, largely continued militarism around the border.

01:48:33.660 Um, other things like that.

01:48:34.740 If Trump is the nominee, do you think he'll win?

01:48:36.620 Uh, yeah.

01:48:37.120 Uh, no, I don't, but I think he will be the nominee.

01:48:39.740 So wouldn't you rather have, say, Bernie Sanders as the candidate for the Democrats?

01:48:43.380 Of course.

01:48:44.100 So isn't it your, uh, isn't it in your interest then to say, by all means, investigate Joe

01:48:48.780 Biden if he's corrupt, get rid of him?

01:48:50.160 Well, I don't think, and sure, you can do an investigation.

01:48:53.320 Everything that's come out so far seems like it's bullshit, but I would rather criticize

01:48:57.420 him on things I find more substantive.

01:48:59.460 Like, so I can tell you definitively and factually, it's, it's not, it's not BS.

01:49:03.720 I mean, certainly there are political elements of it, but I mean, Joe Biden, this is what

01:49:07.380 I was talking about with Hunter Avalon.

01:49:08.240 Like Joe Biden's literally on camera saying that he threatened to withhold congressionally

01:49:11.740 approved loan guarantees unless they fired Victor Shokin.

01:49:15.060 Victor Shokin signed a sworn affidavit saying this was intentionally to protect Burisma from

01:49:18.860 No, this was stated U.S. policy to fire Shokin.

01:49:21.440 This was not a quid pro quo outside of the United States.

01:49:24.060 No, no, Joe Biden said, if you don't fire the prosecutor, you're not getting the loan guarantees.

01:49:27.040 That, that is illegal.

01:49:29.360 Okay.

01:49:30.040 That, that, the, the vice president is not the authority to withhold loan guarantees from

01:49:33.060 a foreign nation that have been approved by Congress.

01:49:34.880 It was not, it was not because they were investigating Burisma.

01:49:37.600 It was because of European policy.

01:49:39.300 Well, intent is material.

01:49:40.780 But you're claiming it's a quid pro quo.

01:49:42.740 It is a quid pro quo for Joe Biden to literally say on camera, which he did, fire the prosecutor

01:49:47.720 when you're not getting the loan.

01:49:48.540 No, it's not though.

01:49:48.900 No, it's not.

01:49:49.500 It's actually, this is weird.

01:49:50.420 No, no, it is.

01:49:51.720 He might, so the president might have the discretion to not do that.

01:49:55.280 And Obama might have said, you represent me in that regard.

01:49:59.400 So it's illegal for him to do that for the investigation.

01:50:02.700 But like, you guys are off into like a different point.

01:50:05.120 The point you were making originally was that Hunter had never seen this clip, but you've

01:50:08.720 seen the clip that they're referencing, right?

01:50:10.320 Because he was making an echo chamber.

01:50:12.220 I've read about it, but I read that Gazprom is.

01:50:13.900 That's very interesting because that clip was plastered all over.

01:50:17.140 Are you familiar with Gazprom?

01:50:18.280 I mostly, I'm mostly my workflow is I read like 50 pages of news before the show every day.

01:50:23.120 I, look, honest question.

01:50:24.160 Like, are you familiar with Gazprom?

01:50:25.900 No.

01:50:26.400 Are you familiar with the Qatar Turkey pipeline?

01:50:28.680 The, sorry?

01:50:29.360 The Qatar Turkey pipeline.

01:50:30.780 Oh yeah, yeah.

01:50:32.080 You are?

01:50:32.600 Yeah, I've heard about it.

01:50:33.700 Okay.

01:50:34.080 Are you familiar with like US intelligence policy, 2009 Syria, and how this relates to

01:50:40.260 Gazprom and Burisma and all this stuff?

01:50:42.640 Um, vaguely.

01:50:44.260 I don't understand how, if you have an understanding of that, you would just be like, all of that's

01:50:48.360 true, but the Joe Biden stuff's not true because it doesn't make any sense as to why you would

01:50:51.880 defend Joe Biden in that way.

01:50:53.640 I just think the investigation is largely BS.

01:50:56.360 I'm not defending Joe Biden.

01:50:57.940 No, but I mean like.

01:50:58.560 Look into the investigation.

01:50:59.800 If they want to do some sort of special counsel investigation outside of the political process

01:51:04.100 where it's not a Republican witch hunt, I'm all for that.

01:51:07.060 But here's what I'm trying to understand.

01:51:08.900 You think that the quid pro quo is not illegal.

01:51:12.500 You think.

01:51:13.080 It's not.

01:51:13.100 That it was stated European policy by the government and so, and you're connecting it

01:51:17.480 and saying it's a quid pro quo based on a variety of different assumptions that have

01:51:21.640 not been able to be proven yet in the midst of the investigation.

01:51:25.520 This I can't understand, right?

01:51:27.000 When, when Donald Trump called Ukraine, it was called a quid pro quo, whether it was US

01:51:31.000 policy or not.

01:51:31.760 It was the president.

01:51:32.680 That's the policy.

01:51:33.480 So if the president calls Ukraine and says, I got this video of Joe Biden, I'd like someone

01:51:38.000 to look into it.

01:51:38.800 He's impeached under a quid pro quo, right?

01:51:41.880 Whether, whether it is or isn't.

01:51:43.820 Because he was withholding aid to Ukraine.

01:51:46.360 Hey, just like Joe Biden tried to do, right?

01:51:48.040 This was not, this was stated US policy at the time.

01:51:50.340 And the president sets US policy, right?

01:51:51.440 But if it's quid pro quo, what was he getting in return?

01:51:53.940 Joe Biden?

01:51:54.560 Yes.

01:51:55.000 He said, fire the prosecutor.

01:51:56.560 The prosecutor had 12.

01:51:57.780 Presumably it would be the prosecutor that was investigating Burisma, but I do.

01:52:00.740 What was Biden getting in return?

01:52:02.380 Right.

01:52:02.760 Okay.

01:52:02.940 So I'll tell you.

01:52:03.900 First, the Victor Shokin had about a dozen plus open investigations into my calls, my

01:52:08.900 Kola Zlachevsky, the founder of Burisma.

01:52:10.720 And I believe into Burisma as an ancillary factor.

01:52:13.820 But I just want to say real quick, impeachment doesn't necessarily.

01:52:15.960 And Shokin was not investigating Burisma.

01:52:17.400 He was.

01:52:17.860 But it was not.

01:52:18.720 Yep.

01:52:18.900 Yep.

01:52:19.180 He, okay, dude, look, if you don't know about this, just don't say no.

01:52:22.540 I can tell you definitively he was, it was a huge issue.

01:52:26.160 There are a dozen plus investigations open into, into, uh, uh, Victor, Michael Zlachevsky.

01:52:31.520 In fact, to the point where Zlachevsky fled the country, Zlachevsky fled Ukraine amid these

01:52:37.780 investigations upon Shokin's firing, returned to Ukraine after Donald Trump then says, I want

01:52:43.420 this looked into, Zlachevsky flees again.

01:52:45.340 Okay.

01:52:45.800 But what was the quid pro quo?

01:52:47.080 What was Biden getting in return?

01:52:50.000 They would, they, presumably they would stop investigating Burisma, which is where his son

01:52:53.620 worked at.

01:52:53.780 That's not it.

01:52:54.220 The quid pro quo is fire the prosecutor or I will withhold aid.

01:52:59.300 Okay.

01:52:59.820 You can say it was.

01:53:00.600 That's not proven.

01:53:01.480 But she's asking.

01:53:02.020 He said it.

01:53:02.340 No, no, no.

01:53:02.640 He did say that, but she's saying it's not proven that he did that for personal gain.

01:53:06.960 She's saying, where's the benefit for Biden?

01:53:09.240 Yes, but that's not illegal.

01:53:10.720 Can I clarify a legal point real quick?

01:53:12.340 Then Trump's impeachment was not illegal either because what was his...

01:53:14.780 That's the exact point I want to clarify.

01:53:16.280 Impeachment is not actually a real legitimate criminal process.

01:53:19.780 It is a political process.

01:53:20.940 I understand that.

01:53:21.660 So like him being impeached for this, like doesn't actually say anything to the legality.

01:53:25.880 Trump was not following United States policy.

01:53:28.160 Biden was.

01:53:28.740 He sets the policy.

01:53:29.740 He's the president.

01:53:31.760 Congress does.

01:53:32.760 No, they don't.

01:53:33.140 We have separations of powers in this country.

01:53:34.820 The president sets policy.

01:53:36.540 Not for...

01:53:37.020 For the executive branch.

01:53:37.980 Congress isn't the one making...

01:53:39.580 Not for aid.

01:53:41.440 No, they allocate the aid, but he's able to pull it under certain circumstances.

01:53:46.060 It's not just that foreign policy is set by the president.

01:53:48.300 Oh, yeah.

01:53:48.760 A huge portion of it.

01:53:50.160 Right, right, right, right.

01:53:50.780 Okay.

01:53:51.460 Nothing's absolute.

01:53:52.380 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:52.700 But the idea that we would elect a president to negotiate on our interests when it comes

01:53:56.560 to the issues of military, and then we would be like, but in this one instance,

01:53:59.340 he doesn't have the authority.

01:54:00.120 What do you mean?

01:54:00.480 He's the one who sets the policy.

01:54:01.860 No, no.

01:54:02.140 He has the authority.

01:54:03.120 The argument is that Joe Biden wasn't engaging in a quid pro quo because it was a policy of our administration.

01:54:07.380 Yeah, Obama had a policy.

01:54:10.080 A quid pro quo is when you get something personally in return.

01:54:12.800 So something for something is what it means.

01:54:14.540 Right, but the nature of the investigation that they're looking into is they're trying

01:54:17.500 to say that there was a bribe via Hunter Biden, and there has been no...

01:54:22.420 Joe and Hunter.

01:54:23.180 Right, right.

01:54:24.140 But there has been no actual evidence on that front.

01:54:27.040 Well, I'm not super concerned about what they may be investigating currently right now.

01:54:30.200 I'm talking about it is...

01:54:31.760 The whole point of this was, I can't believe we're even arguing it right now.

01:54:34.740 But she...

01:54:35.360 I don't understand why you, who's someone who has every reason to oppose Joe Biden,

01:54:39.880 are like, he said it on camera, but you know what?

01:54:42.120 It's fine.

01:54:42.700 I don't get it.

01:54:43.540 Like, just be like, yeah, sure, fine.

01:54:45.120 I guess.

01:54:45.320 But she's making a very specific point that for it to be a quid pro quo, you have to explain

01:54:49.540 how Biden benefited from this.

01:54:51.520 So it's not necessarily that she's disagreeing with what you're saying, although she's saying

01:54:55.260 it's part of policy, but she's saying you have to actually, to complete this, like basically

01:54:58.880 you're two thirds of the way there, that final third is how he benefited.

01:55:01.960 Biden was not in opposition to congressional policy, and Trump was.

01:55:06.100 But that's what she's talking about.

01:55:06.660 I'm talking about Joe Biden threatening to withhold loan guarantees, goes against, is not

01:55:11.560 legal.

01:55:11.780 But you're talking past each other because she's saying, like, there's a reason for that,

01:55:14.940 and it's not corrupt related.

01:55:16.180 But that has nothing to do with what I'm saying is what I'm saying.

01:55:17.620 I know.

01:55:18.000 I'm just clarifying where you guys are miscommunicating.

01:55:20.100 This is where I'll say I have differences with Joe Biden.

01:55:22.960 First of all, I can't even, like, understand why he hasn't or didn't when he had a House

01:55:29.820 and a Senate that was Democratic push for any kind of single payer or socialized health

01:55:33.660 care.

01:55:33.920 I wish that that was happening.

01:55:35.900 He's certainly to the right of me on the border.

01:55:38.860 The fact that he broke the rail strike, that's something that I'm deeply in opposition to.

01:55:43.580 And I'm happy to discuss those kinds of things with you.

01:55:46.740 But I really want to get into the Burisma thing.

01:55:49.260 It came up as like an example of I don't understand why, like, there's like a tribal

01:55:52.860 need to defend Joe Biden.

01:55:53.940 It was the the the the it's not tribal.

01:55:58.700 It was U.S. policy to get rid of corruption in Ukraine.

01:56:02.560 Shokin was not investigating Burisma.

01:56:05.380 Biden was in concert.

01:56:08.680 He was continuing U.S. policy.

01:56:11.180 Trump was in opposition to it.

01:56:12.840 That is the difference in the hypocrisy that you're trying to highlight here.

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01:57:46.420 You guys are going to go in circles on this.

01:57:48.060 But why don't you pull it up?

01:57:48.920 But because we covered this a long time ago, I didn't want to do the whole Burisma thing.

01:57:52.380 My point was simply that, like, having covered this to such extent, it is confusing to me the

01:57:58.080 need to defend the Bidens on this one.

01:58:00.820 I just, like...

01:58:01.740 I just criticized Biden in a bunch of different...

01:58:03.440 But I don't want to say why you're saying there was no investigation.

01:58:05.720 Like, you're just making that up.

01:58:06.820 They're in the middle of an investigation right now.

01:58:08.080 No, no, no, no.

01:58:09.180 Michael Zlachevsky had 12 to 14 open investigations.

01:58:11.800 I'm sorry.

01:58:12.600 Shokin had a dozen plus investigations into Zlachevsky in Burisma.

01:58:16.920 Okay.

01:58:17.440 But I don't know why you're like, no, that's not true.

01:58:19.000 I was like, what?

01:58:20.480 I don't know.

01:58:21.060 It's been a couple of years since we covered this in depth and had all the articles pulled

01:58:23.320 out to be fair.

01:58:24.480 But yeah, they did.

01:58:26.480 Like, that's not even a question of the facts.

01:58:28.720 Okay.

01:58:29.040 The question is whether or not, like, they wanted someone else to do it.

01:58:32.780 I feel I kind of delineated why it's different pretty succinctly.

01:58:37.840 Trump was in violation of U.S. policy set by Congress.

01:58:40.860 Biden was not.

01:58:41.740 That is the difference that we're laying out here.

01:58:43.560 And you have been unable to establish how Biden benefits in a quid pro quo from this

01:58:47.920 in any way.

01:58:49.000 Well, currently, the argument is that, well, his son was on the board of Burisma.

01:58:52.580 I mean, so that was kind of obvious, as was a CIA director.

01:58:55.040 Yeah, I mean, totally.

01:58:56.180 So as a counterterrorism director of the CIA on the board of this company and so-called

01:59:00.240 left is like, well, it's fine.

01:59:01.640 What is going on?

01:59:03.380 I don't understand how the left became pro-war, pro-medic, pro-big pharma.

01:59:07.820 Like, like government should be able to give multi-billion dollar no-bid contracts.

01:59:11.960 Tim, I'm against government corruption.

01:59:13.940 The idea that these fails, that these fails, that these fails, that these fails, what about

01:59:18.140 vaccine mandates?

01:59:19.200 I said, I don't understand how the left became pro-big pharma, pro-no-bid, no-

01:59:24.600 It's not pro-big pharma.

01:59:25.060 I'm pro-public health.

01:59:26.260 So you're in favor of no bid, no liability contracts for massive multinational pharmaceuticals?

01:59:32.040 No, I was literally just said earlier in the program that I wanted the state to own

01:59:37.200 it since we gave our money to that and created life-sizing vaccines with taxpayer money.

01:59:42.180 Right.

01:59:42.360 So who gets the money?

01:59:44.160 The big pharma did.

01:59:45.100 It's messed up.

01:59:45.860 Yeah.

01:59:46.140 Right.

01:59:46.520 We should have socialized healthcare in this country and be manufacturing it ourselves.

01:59:50.380 Even if the patents were released to the public, they still gave the billion dollar

01:59:54.780 production contracts to big pharma.

01:59:56.240 But that is what we live in, unfortunately, right now.

01:59:58.940 And we were in the middle of a global pandemic and we needed vaccines immediately.

02:00:02.900 That's not left.

02:00:04.320 No, it is.

02:00:05.120 It certainly is.

02:00:06.280 I believe that in the immediate-

02:00:08.220 Hypercentralized.

02:00:09.320 Excuse me?

02:00:10.680 Hypercentralized funding of massive multinational pharmaceuticals is not leftist.

02:00:14.800 Well, what would be the alternative, Tim, in the midst of a global pandemic?

02:00:18.520 Decentralized bid contracts with liability.

02:00:20.500 I literally just said earlier in the program that I was in favor and much closer.

02:00:26.580 First, also, I'm surprised you're saying this because didn't you say that you were

02:00:29.920 more close to Trump on vaccine policy?

02:00:32.160 This is Trump's vaccine policy.

02:00:33.640 No, you were talking about that.

02:00:34.600 Okay.

02:00:34.840 I am closer to him than that.

02:00:36.200 Yeah.

02:00:36.440 On that.

02:00:37.340 I believe that when we did give investment into these companies, yes, they were going

02:00:41.880 to make some sort of windfall, but then the vaccines themselves should be owned by

02:00:46.320 the public since it was money, our money that was given into it.

02:00:49.080 That's the practical realities of what we have to deal with today in a for-profit healthcare

02:00:54.240 system.

02:00:55.320 I'm hoping that we transition away from that and that we have socialized healthcare so

02:01:00.240 none of the things that you're talking about have to happen anymore.

02:01:03.120 I don't think you need to give no bid, no liability contracts to massive pharmaceuticals

02:01:09.600 to do what needed to be done.

02:01:11.580 You know what I mean?

02:01:12.000 Like, I think it's just that the government is crooked.

02:01:14.500 So you're closer to DeSantis on vaccine policy.

02:01:18.100 Probably neither.

02:01:19.080 I don't know how it applies to what we're talking about.

02:01:21.240 I'm saying-

02:01:21.820 So what's your alternative to producing the vaccine in the rapid way that the Operation

02:01:26.020 Warp Speed did?

02:01:27.280 Well, there are a lot of questions about whether or not it worked in any capacity, right?

02:01:32.940 No, there's not.

02:01:34.140 What do you mean?

02:01:35.460 The vaccines were highly effective.

02:01:37.520 What does that mean?

02:01:39.880 Originally at preventing death.

02:01:41.620 Then, of course, there were different variants and disease continued to spread.

02:01:44.840 But vaccines were immensely effective in preventing death, the mRNA vaccines.

02:01:49.940 Right.

02:01:50.160 So what I mean more so is like the Operation Warp Speed was predicated upon preventing the

02:01:54.720 spread, which it didn't do, right?

02:01:57.700 Sorry?

02:01:58.560 Operation Warp Speed was predicated upon-

02:02:00.560 Yes, it did.

02:02:01.380 It helped prevent the spread.

02:02:02.900 It didn't.

02:02:03.480 Yes, it did.

02:02:04.540 It didn't.

02:02:05.140 Well, I mean, part of the issue was that in red states, there was no ability to actually-

02:02:11.680 May have read a death, but I think, wasn't it like, oh yeah, we doesn't actually stop

02:02:15.660 spread?

02:02:15.920 Mass mandates were immediately done away within red states.

02:02:19.780 They basically had no social distancing.

02:02:21.780 That had much more of an effect on death in this country than the inefficacy of vaccines.

02:02:30.440 This has been borne out by data after data after data set.

02:02:33.340 And then we have new variations of the vaccines, which have also helped.

02:02:38.660 Nothing was going to reduce the spread that much.

02:02:40.620 It was like, it was already one of the most contagious viruses, and then it mutated to

02:02:45.020 become more contagious.

02:02:46.400 Well, it helped with both transmissions and severity.

02:02:49.400 That's a fact.

02:02:50.180 The mRNA vaccines did.

02:02:51.740 Well, I don't want to deviate too much.

02:02:53.660 We were talking about-

02:02:54.520 And it explodes spread, particularly with the wild type.

02:02:56.540 Big pharmaceuticals.

02:02:57.580 So my issue would be like, instead of having like three big companies, I think it was like

02:03:01.300 four big companies, just do it, would be to have it decentralized amongst many different

02:03:07.340 producers who are not centralized.

02:03:09.520 And that can be done.

02:03:10.540 We just have to do it.

02:03:11.520 Talking like a prize, like, hey, if you develop this vaccine, whoever does it first, then you

02:03:15.980 get the windfall.

02:03:16.640 Or even like a mandated coordination of production, but not have one company just be like, we're

02:03:21.440 going to give $10 billion to company X.

02:03:23.960 That's insane.

02:03:24.680 Didn't one of these companies refuse the money upfront for fear of future ownership of it?

02:03:29.600 Yeah, was that Moderna or something like that?

02:03:31.120 I don't remember which one.

02:03:32.160 I don't know.

02:03:32.500 I don't know.

02:03:33.180 Anyway, my point was, you know, there's that meme that Elon Musk made where like the left

02:03:37.900 moves further and further left.

02:03:38.980 I think that the left has actually gone right in a weird way.

02:03:41.700 How is preventing death in a global pandemic?

02:03:44.340 Well, like, are you in favor of the war in Ukraine?

02:03:48.160 I'm sorry, I'll rephrase.

02:03:50.120 Do you believe the US should be involved in providing material support to the Ukrainians?

02:03:54.580 I have been in favor of it, yes.

02:03:57.120 I do think that there are legitimate concerns about the continuation of doing so without

02:04:03.820 brokering a peace and it becoming some sort of proxy for US like war criminals within the

02:04:09.980 United States.

02:04:10.800 But in terms of like the Russian invasion, I am completely opposed and in support of the

02:04:15.660 Ukrainian people.

02:04:16.840 Yeah, it's more a question of like, should we have given what are we at like 100 and 200

02:04:20.460 billion?

02:04:21.220 I don't know, because there's guarantees which have not been delivered.

02:04:24.340 And it's in terms of weapons.

02:04:25.920 So I don't know what's actually been delivered.

02:04:28.040 This is what I don't understand.

02:04:28.940 Like people I used to know from back during Occupy are like flying Ukrainian flags and

02:04:34.100 being like, we got to support this.

02:04:36.100 Hassan Piker criticized me for saying we shouldn't be involved.

02:04:38.940 And he also said the invasion wasn't going to happen for sure.

02:04:41.980 Like 100% of that happened the next day.

02:04:43.800 But my position has always been 99% non-intervention.

02:04:47.820 Like I've not changed at all in that regard.

02:04:49.600 And the left has become pro-intervention, moving them right.

02:04:54.260 But Ukraine is on the defense.

02:04:57.360 They were invaded.

02:04:58.400 This is not the same thing.

02:04:59.640 You want to talk about Kuwait and Iraq and-

02:05:02.200 You want to talk about that?

02:05:03.340 I'm in favor.

02:05:03.740 We were the equivalent of Russia in the case of Iraq.

02:05:07.400 We invaded under completely false pretenses.

02:05:10.600 We invaded under illegal pretenses.

02:05:11.720 What I'm saying is like this just proves my point.

02:05:13.560 And we killed and decimated that country, hundreds of thousands dead because of the US fire.

02:05:17.320 If the left position was only opposed to war because of the circumstances of the war,

02:05:21.640 then I would say the left is more pro-war and to the right of me on war.

02:05:25.680 That's, I'm completely anti-war, but the war happened because Russia invaded

02:05:29.960 and now Ukraine is trying to defend itself.

02:05:32.280 Right, right.

02:05:32.560 So you're anti-war.

02:05:33.480 You oppose war.

02:05:34.140 Yes.

02:05:34.600 But you're to the right of me when it comes to Ukraine.

02:05:37.240 I don't think so.

02:05:38.300 Do you believe that the US should be supplying and aiding the Ukrainians?

02:05:41.680 I do believe so because they're defending themselves.

02:05:43.520 Who gets that money?

02:05:44.400 The military.

02:05:45.020 But they're defending themselves.

02:05:47.560 Raytheon, Northup Grumman, Lockheed Martin.

02:05:49.020 Yeah, totally, totally.

02:05:50.160 Yeah, I'm opposed to all of that.

02:05:51.580 I mean, look, if you're the right of me on that issue.

02:05:53.480 If you believe that Russia should be able to invade Ukraine and take territory without

02:05:57.440 recourse, then, I mean, that's pro-imperialism.

02:06:00.340 That's not, and that's still pro-war.

02:06:02.280 No, no.

02:06:02.820 Yes, it is.

02:06:03.200 A lot of people around the world do a lot of bad things.

02:06:05.220 I don't think the US should be an empire going and funding wars all over the world.

02:06:08.500 We're not funding wars.

02:06:09.500 We're funding the defense.

02:06:10.480 I mean, and there's something that you can be said where, where should we draw a certain

02:06:14.260 line?

02:06:14.900 I have already conceded that strings should be attached and we should be involved in peace

02:06:18.480 negotiations.

02:06:19.720 But to flatten the power dynamics here, I mean, I would imagine this is like the same

02:06:24.640 argument that you hear when it comes to Israel and Palestine, right?

02:06:29.020 Where Palestinians are defending themselves and then it's, oh my gosh, they are just, it's

02:06:35.120 completely symmetrical, Israel and Palestine.

02:06:38.100 These are two actors just battling it out.

02:06:39.980 To your favor of intervention there?

02:06:41.320 No, one, I would love to fund Palestinians so that they were able to have a better life

02:06:45.240 You are to the right of me on foreign policy.

02:06:46.800 Well, we already fund Israel, dude.

02:06:48.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:06:49.240 Are you against that?

02:06:50.220 That's a tougher question I don't have an answer to.

02:06:52.080 Then you're in favor of funding military.

02:06:54.660 We fund the Iron Dome.

02:06:55.980 Me literally saying I don't know anything enough about it.

02:07:00.300 Then if it's your principle and you're anti-war, then you should be saying then we should cut

02:07:04.240 Israel funding for Israeli defense right now.

02:07:07.140 I lean against, that's why I said 99%.

02:07:08.940 I'll say I absolutely lean against providing military aid to Israel.

02:07:12.880 I just don't know.

02:07:14.180 I will say a new war in Ukraine in a territory that we are not, United States is not, doesn't

02:07:20.540 mean that I'm as far left as possible on the question of imperialism.

02:07:24.040 It means that you are to the right of me on that issue.

02:07:26.860 Yeah.

02:07:26.960 Like your position would provide funding for massive multinational military industrial complex

02:07:31.520 corporations.

02:07:32.240 I mean, I think that's the fact that we do have those contracts as massive.

02:07:36.440 I think they should be dismantled.

02:07:36.980 Split it to a thousand pieces and scared it to win.

02:07:37.860 Sure.

02:07:38.200 I think the United States should be more primarily, you want to nationalize the defense industry?

02:07:41.780 You want to go for that?

02:07:42.480 I'm down.

02:07:43.060 I don't know about nationalizing that.

02:07:43.980 That empowers it and makes it permanent.

02:07:45.920 Well, there's always going to be a weapons industry and there's always going to be, it should

02:07:49.800 be much, it should be severely cut into.

02:07:51.800 But the United States, by the way, made a promise in 1993 to Ukraine that we would defend

02:07:56.140 them if they denuclearize.

02:07:57.500 That's true.

02:07:57.920 So that is part of what we're doing in this instance.

02:08:00.460 That's true too.

02:08:01.160 And I think that's an interesting question about upholding our obligations that I don't

02:08:05.600 disagree with.

02:08:06.600 That's, it would be very difficult for us.

02:08:08.360 Granted, the issue was, I think I'm like a little kid.

02:08:10.320 I'm like seven years old when something like that happens.

02:08:12.260 And now in my name, you know, we, we engage in this conflict and war.

02:08:16.220 I think it's fair to say that while I can understand that treaty exists as a now adult

02:08:20.260 who is paying tax into this, I have the right to object to past agreements that weren't made

02:08:23.720 by me.

02:08:24.560 That being said, I just, my point on this one was specifically, I see all these Ukrainian

02:08:30.240 flags and profiles.

02:08:31.560 I make a comment in agreement with Hassan where I was like, he was right about Mr. Beast.

02:08:36.660 And then I was talking about military intervention and how it's wrong.

02:08:39.980 We're spending a hundred billion dollars on this war in Ukraine.

02:08:41.920 We shouldn't be doing it.

02:08:42.540 And then he laughed at me over it.

02:08:43.940 And I'm just like, genuine question.

02:08:45.780 When did it become, or maybe I was always wrong when I was at like Occupy or doing these

02:08:50.820 like anti-Iraq war protests back in the 2000s.

02:08:53.760 I thought that it was the left position to oppose military expansion, military industrial

02:08:57.600 complex.

02:08:58.580 But today it's inverted.

02:09:00.800 Strangely, it's the Trump supporter saying no war.

02:09:03.500 No, because they're in favor of Russian imperialism.

02:09:06.220 That is your, again, flattening power dynamics of who was the invader and who has been invaded.

02:09:11.240 That's not what I'm talking about.

02:09:12.160 We, I am, I am in favor of the United States abiding by the treaty that we promised Ukraine

02:09:17.400 in 1993.

02:09:18.680 I'm not talking about any of that.

02:09:19.600 I'm talking about the moral position of war.

02:09:20.660 I'm talking about the moral position of war.

02:09:20.800 If they do, and by the way, why I'm more pro-war than you, or anti-war, Jesus, anti-war

02:09:26.800 than you, is that I'm in favor of broad denuclearization.

02:09:29.800 And I think that we should continue to make our promises to countries that choose not to

02:09:34.960 engage in making nuclear power.

02:09:37.280 How does that make you more than me?

02:09:38.180 In nuclear weaponry.

02:09:39.000 I don't disagree on that at all.

02:09:40.100 Okay, then there you go.

02:09:41.100 But I'm in favor of committing and making our, and because they denuclearized and said

02:09:47.580 that we're not going to create nuclear weaponry, I am in favor of keeping our promise on that

02:09:51.800 front so that we are able to incentivize and keep our promises that we are going to back

02:09:58.020 you up if you choose not to make nuclear weaponry.

02:10:01.280 Maybe it's not a left or right thing.

02:10:02.960 Maybe it's more of just like a libertarian thing.

02:10:05.260 I mean, I think it's, I think it's that first of all, anti-war is, is a dumb like position.

02:10:10.920 I'm sorry.

02:10:11.500 It's everybody, everybody's like anti-wars they don't like, but obviously like I can composite

02:10:16.740 a scenario where you would support like an intervention.

02:10:19.120 Like if you gave me time to like, because nothing's absolute, like if you were to tell

02:10:24.200 me that, uh, a, you know, Vladimir Putin, like there's a, he's, he's live streaming

02:10:30.120 himself about to launch a nuclear weapon at Washington, DC.

02:10:33.000 I'd be like, okay, we got to do something about that.

02:10:34.460 But there's something to what she's saying where the, uh, Ukraine after the fall of the

02:10:38.160 Soviet union had the third largest nuclear weapon stockpile and in exchange for giving

02:10:42.980 it up, there were security guarantees.

02:10:44.740 Now, if you're worried about nuclear proliferation in other countries that might lead to a nuclear

02:10:50.640 war protecting or making sure that they can maintain their territorial integrity, just

02:10:56.260 as an example to other countries that might want to denuclearize in the future, uh, is a

02:11:01.180 worthwhile stake.

02:11:01.980 And I think I understand that position.

02:11:03.840 Like it makes perfect sense.

02:11:05.400 In my opinion, I understand it.

02:11:07.120 Uh, I don't care though.

02:11:08.520 Right.

02:11:08.960 So it's kind of like if, um, some dude cut a deal with like someone in my family cut

02:11:15.540 a deal with someone else.

02:11:16.120 And then 30 years later, they walk up and say, you know, your dad told me that if I

02:11:19.620 ever had this problem, you're going to take care of me.

02:11:21.220 I'd be like, I'm not my dad.

02:11:21.920 I'm sorry.

02:11:22.840 Like governments change, policies change.

02:11:25.080 And the idea that because 30 years ago, someone cut you a promise means that I now have

02:11:30.720 to spend $200 billion defending you.

02:11:32.900 So the people of this generation who are inheriting this country did not agree to that.

02:11:37.840 No, it's fine.

02:11:38.340 So what does that say to people who might be manufacturing their own nuclear weaponry?

02:11:43.380 That it doesn't, that the promises made by the world superpower don't really matter.

02:11:47.920 Um, and I don't like the idea of America being a world superpower.

02:11:51.500 I agree.

02:11:52.220 My, my, my view is probably different for you in that regard.

02:11:54.220 I'm, I'm more so like, I think it'd be great if we brought jobs back here.

02:11:58.760 If we, uh, uh, protected the middle class, maybe had stronger, uh, workers rights.

02:12:03.940 Um, Oh, a hundred percent.

02:12:05.240 I'm maybe, maybe unions.

02:12:06.380 I'm in favor of that.

02:12:07.340 Tariffs on, uh, imports for two reasons.

02:12:10.140 The idea that we'd manufacture a car in China and then ship it on a boat over here, just to

02:12:14.420 waste energy because someone's willing to do it cheaper.

02:12:16.260 It's nonsensical to me just by American.

02:12:18.680 So we need to, we need to build up the incentives for all the manufacturing to happen here in the

02:12:22.060 United States to create good jobs, to protect the workers.

02:12:24.680 Worry less about whether or not we're going to go blow up some foreign country, a bunch of

02:12:27.740 kids in it or something like that.

02:12:28.760 But I think, I think, uh, like there's like a, um, like you're not, uh, you're not seeing

02:12:33.640 this past, like what's currently happening now because I get it.

02:12:37.100 Right.

02:12:37.280 And I, I was a big Ron Paul guy and he didn't like the idea that one generation could promise

02:12:41.320 the sons of a future generation.

02:12:43.360 That's exactly right.

02:12:43.980 I understand that position.

02:12:45.300 But if we don't want Saudi Arabia to nuclearize, we don't want Iran to nuclearize.

02:12:49.860 And we're like, Hey, like, you know, like we got you, like don't nuclearize.

02:12:53.420 We're going to try to like, you know, be the 800 pound gorilla in the room so that you

02:12:57.820 don't have problems.

02:12:58.780 And then they look and say, well, you made that promise to Ukraine.

02:13:01.960 And then with the 30 years later, they're invaded by Russia and completely.

02:13:06.540 Why are we making those promises?

02:13:08.300 Because that's the nature of a treaty.

02:13:10.680 No, you know, the idea is how could you, how could any treaty exist, Tim?

02:13:14.960 If it's people had your position and just said, yeah, fuck it.

02:13:19.340 People.

02:13:19.660 So that's anti-diplomacy and that's pro-war.

02:13:22.340 Any treaty.

02:13:23.020 Oh, come on.

02:13:24.200 Being anti-diplomacy.

02:13:24.840 Being literally being like, we shouldn't go to war.

02:13:25.840 Like that's pro-war.

02:13:26.760 Well, being anti-diplomacy is pro-war.

02:13:28.220 The idea that we can make a treaty around, here's why we won't attack you.

02:13:30.880 Totally fine.

02:13:31.500 Here's a treaty around, I'm going to allow your citizens to cross my border with no

02:13:34.460 visa and we'll reciprocate, like back and forth.

02:13:37.420 And then having one being like, in 30 years, if anyone comes to fight you, we will fight

02:13:41.200 on your behalf, despite the fact that you're not an allied nation or a bunch of

02:13:44.860 other issues, I don't think at any point ever the U.S. should have been making these

02:13:50.360 promises.

02:13:51.040 And then to come out and be like, but now Saudi Arabia is, oh, I'm sure every country is going

02:13:55.900 to be upset if we don't fight on the behalf of some other country.

02:13:58.100 No, no, it's not.

02:13:58.600 There are limitations.

02:13:59.800 Look, nothing's absolute.

02:14:00.540 I get it.

02:14:01.120 We're in this position now.

02:14:02.340 There's an interesting question of South Korea.

02:14:03.980 People ask me, what if China invaded?

02:14:05.660 And I'm like, we got a lot of troops there right now.

02:14:07.280 So I understand the circumstances of today.

02:14:09.720 But the issue is, you know, for one, we could have put a no-fly zone over Ukraine before

02:14:14.360 the invasion started.

02:14:15.260 That would have stopped Russia in its tracks.

02:14:17.740 Well, a no-fly zone is a de facto declaration of war once the plane gets shot down, once

02:14:22.260 the United States...

02:14:23.220 And that means Russia would have to have shot down, would have had to attack us.

02:14:27.260 I mean, either way, the no-fly zone and us getting more directly involved in that way

02:14:31.800 would be catastrophic, potentially.

02:14:34.340 War between two nuclear powers.

02:14:36.700 If...

02:14:37.420 Agreed.

02:14:38.480 Fair point.

02:14:38.860 Um, I think my position is more so just, this is a Russian border dispute over the

02:14:46.080 Donbass region.

02:14:47.280 The U.S.

02:14:48.500 It's an invasion, Tim.

02:14:51.020 Sure.

02:14:51.780 I'm talking about the specifics of why they're doing it, right?

02:14:55.060 They've invaded Ukraine because they want the land bridge into Crimea.

02:14:58.580 Why do they want the land bridge into Crimea?

02:15:00.860 Because Western forces were courting Ukraine.

02:15:04.180 Ukraine was being courted to the Russian Trade Federation and to the European Union.

02:15:08.080 Ukrainians wanted to join the European Union.

02:15:10.000 It would be a massive boost to their economy and they get access to the Schengen zone.

02:15:12.680 It's wonderful.

02:15:13.960 Russia didn't like that.

02:15:15.260 So Russia tried to intervene.

02:15:16.600 Yanukovych was ousted, fled the country.

02:15:18.540 Russia then immediately got their troops outside of Sevastopol and said, we're claiming

02:15:22.800 this, our warm water port in the Black Sea.

02:15:24.720 And then we started to see the bubbling up of the Eastern conflict.

02:15:27.160 Some people call it a civil war.

02:15:28.520 And then finally, when Russia was losing and said, if we cannot lose access to the Black

02:15:34.000 Sea, they said, we're taking the Donbass.

02:15:35.560 And this is where we are.

02:15:36.380 Yeah, it's a territorial imperialism.

02:15:37.600 So why are we involved?

02:15:39.060 Because of a treaty from 30 years ago.

02:15:40.520 Yeah, because we made a promise.

02:15:41.820 I think we should not have made.

02:15:43.320 So you think that they should not have gotten rid of their nuclear stockpile?

02:15:46.860 You think they should, because that was what the treaty was based on.

02:15:49.280 Well, we could have offered them something else.

02:15:50.780 What?

02:15:51.180 But that's what they would.

02:15:51.940 A lot of things.

02:15:52.360 That's the reason why they would keep them is to protect themselves from Russian aggression

02:15:56.880 because Russia historically expands westward until they hit a stronger power.

02:16:01.780 And this is because the geographical limitations to how Russia can develop have been the same

02:16:06.640 for hundreds of years.

02:16:08.240 So Russia always goes that direction.

02:16:12.060 That's why Poland immediately in the first opportunity joins NATO, because Poland was called the

02:16:17.780 bloodlands in World War II because they had the unfortunate situation where two strong

02:16:22.500 powers were attacking.

02:16:23.100 Wasn't there also a treaty that NATO wouldn't expand?

02:16:25.560 No, this is false.

02:16:26.720 There's never an agreement.

02:16:27.760 So this is a misinterpretation that is often inflated, and Gorbachev has clarified this

02:16:33.940 specifically.

02:16:35.040 It's after the Berlin Wall fell, which the Soviet Union was still around, they said that they

02:16:40.460 would not move their military forces within Berlin one inch eastward, right?

02:16:47.060 This did not apply to Poland or any of these other countries because they were a part of the

02:16:51.540 Soviet Union.

02:16:52.800 And again, Gorbachev himself, who would have been the person in charge, has made this clear.

02:16:56.940 So this is like weird propaganda that gets put out by...

02:17:00.740 What do you think happens if we let Russia take Ukraine?

02:17:04.040 I mean, I think they're going to try to expand their sphere of influence as far westward as

02:17:09.000 they can possibly do, because that's what they do historically.

02:17:11.860 But this is completely denying the sovereignty of Ukrainians.

02:17:15.600 I mean, what does Ukraine want?

02:17:16.820 They want the ability to defend themselves, and the United States is providing them with

02:17:20.620 that.

02:17:20.960 And we can talk if we want to follow our treaties and give them the ability to defend themselves.

02:17:26.940 against imperialism.

02:17:28.740 Man, I've always...

02:17:29.740 Imperialism is war.

02:17:30.940 I think also the point I was making earlier is not that Saudi Arabia cares about Ukraine,

02:17:34.760 but like when you're negotiating with somebody, right?

02:17:37.600 Like, you know, past behavior is the best predictor of future outcome.

02:17:41.900 So when we're trying to negotiate denuclearization with any other country, and our example of what

02:17:48.320 happened to somebody who agreed to give up their nuclear stockpile is Ukraine, which is currently

02:17:54.060 now part of Russia, like they're not going to want to negotiate with us.

02:17:57.900 So it leads to potential problems down the line.

02:17:59.900 Not to mention, historically, when conflict breaks out on the European continent, a lot

02:18:04.260 of Americans eventually go over there and die in order to set things right.

02:18:08.280 And I don't want a third world war.

02:18:09.640 I think this is what makes the third world war.

02:18:13.480 I mean, I could agree or disagree on that.

02:18:15.340 Russia could have taken the Donbass region and we would have been like, wow, that was

02:18:18.980 bad.

02:18:19.720 That was horrible.

02:18:20.140 And it would have been like Crimea.

02:18:21.800 Crimea got taken and it was a big news event.

02:18:24.100 And then weren't they shelling the capital?

02:18:25.980 Was it not beyond the Donbass region where they were attacking?

02:18:29.560 I'm pretty sure it was just the Donbass region.

02:18:31.460 No, they were shelling Kiev.

02:18:34.080 They were shelling all over the country.

02:18:36.320 I mean, let's be real.

02:18:37.160 Russia claims the whole territory of the Ukraine and like their greater Russia as part of them.

02:18:42.100 So like they may be saying there's ethnic Russians right now.

02:18:44.920 We found some connections here.

02:18:45.980 There we go.

02:18:46.680 That's beautiful.

02:18:47.260 Like there might be ethnic Russians in the Donbass.

02:18:49.540 Should we go to war with China?

02:18:51.220 Absolutely not.

02:18:52.080 Depends on for what?

02:18:53.220 We're not in war with Russia right now.

02:18:55.280 So that's the difference.

02:18:56.100 That's the real line that needs to be drawn is making sure that this does not become a

02:19:00.420 proxy battle.

02:19:01.400 And there are forces that want to push for that.

02:19:03.720 I mean, I think that, frankly, the Biden administration has been a bit more disciplined

02:19:06.900 and I'm happy than I initially anticipated on this front.

02:19:10.880 I remember when the initial invasion happened, Hillary Clinton went on cable news and said,

02:19:15.520 well, this could be a real opportunity to weaken Putin.

02:19:17.460 And we called that out in the majority report as an incredibly dangerous notion.

02:19:21.840 So she wanted war from the get go back in 2016.

02:19:23.840 Sure.

02:19:24.240 I mean, that's the kind of force within the Democratic Party I'm trying to be be back.

02:19:27.880 I think that America being a global hegemon is a good thing because those power vacuums

02:19:33.080 will be filled when we leave.

02:19:35.280 I want to not go to war, but I want countries to feel like we would go to war because I like

02:19:40.960 deterrence as a policy.

02:19:42.920 So like I hear it.

02:19:44.220 It's tough because it's not working.

02:19:46.220 And that's why I'm at the you know, my view is strengthen this country, you know, show

02:19:51.720 up our defenses, focus on empowering our people with the ability to live, work, eat, sleep,

02:19:58.720 Medicare.

02:19:59.360 What does that mean?

02:19:59.960 I'm not Medicare.

02:20:00.800 Medical care in some capacity.

02:20:02.380 Medicare for all potentially.

02:20:04.140 I don't know.

02:20:04.500 That's a specific thing.

02:20:05.840 I call it public option.

02:20:07.620 How about that?

02:20:08.040 I call it universal basic health care.

02:20:10.340 What does that mean?

02:20:12.540 We provide basic health care to all people.

02:20:14.960 How so?

02:20:16.640 Well, I mean, if you want to get into the intricacies of it, I could ask you the same question.

02:20:19.240 I'm saying that, yeah, through taxation, the average me, I don't, I don't, I creating a

02:20:23.760 socialized health care system, but I don't know if I would call it a socialized health

02:20:26.860 care system, probably because I think you're going further than I'm going with it.

02:20:30.300 I'm saying like, how else do you raise money then to have like a, I'm not saying not taxes.

02:20:35.660 I'm saying like if my limit is usually like if someone's got some like rare degenerative

02:20:42.340 genetic disorder that requires $20 billion to treat, like we have a limit.

02:20:46.540 We can't do that.

02:20:47.660 You know what I mean?

02:20:48.060 That's why I say basic.

02:20:49.360 There's a, there was a story about a kid in like, I think it was Louisiana who had a

02:20:53.060 genetic disorder.

02:20:53.900 The treatment costs $1 million and the family demanded the state cover it.

02:20:58.400 The state said we can't afford to cover it.

02:20:59.960 But why do you think that health care is so heavily, heavily inflated in terms of costs

02:21:05.000 in this country?

02:21:05.540 Well, for one, the insurance companies are all corrupt and broken.

02:21:07.140 Absolutely.

02:21:07.800 Absolutely.

02:21:08.320 In, in Germany, in the UK, they spend half of what we do and they have socialized health

02:21:13.100 care and they, and they have better outcomes in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality.

02:21:16.500 Did Trump do the thing with like cheaper insulin from Canada or something?

02:21:21.040 I think Biden might've done something to like the insulin was a part of the negotiations in

02:21:25.720 the, in the inflation reduction.

02:21:27.220 But I just want to point out like those are horrible metrics, life expectancy and infant

02:21:31.740 mortality for two reasons.

02:21:33.200 Number one, uh, if you take out car accidents in the United States of America, our life expectancy

02:21:38.320 shoots dramatically up in Europe, a lot less people drive.

02:21:42.260 And considering we're talking about medical care, I think we should focus on things that

02:21:46.020 describe the impact of medical care as for life.

02:21:48.860 I'm sorry, infant mortality.

02:21:50.340 This is one of the worst metrics, because if you are born at any point for a split second

02:21:55.920 and you die, you go into our infant mortality statistics.

02:21:59.160 In France, for example, you have to have the pregnancy gestate for over 20 weeks and you

02:22:04.420 have to be alive for a full 24 hours.

02:22:06.520 So this is just not an apples to apples comparison.

02:22:09.400 I think the doctors would disagree with your assessment that the infant mortality rates are

02:22:13.440 overinflated, but I'll then just-

02:22:15.200 They're just measuring different things.

02:22:16.640 They can disagree with that, but they would be incorrect, wrong, not even close.

02:22:19.820 But how about the cost element that I just mentioned?

02:22:21.860 Yeah, cost is definitely a huge problem.

02:22:23.600 And I think this has to do with third party payers.

02:22:25.060 That's because we have privatized healthcare.

02:22:26.060 That's because we have privatized healthcare.

02:22:27.160 I would disagree with that.

02:22:27.840 I don't completely disagree.

02:22:29.000 I got a kidney stone and my bill was like 40 grand.

02:22:31.200 Hey, so I've had a kidney stone before.

02:22:32.640 They charged me like 40 grand.

02:22:33.860 And then when I, because I was between jobs, I left Vice and I was starting at Fusion and

02:22:39.160 I had this one week gap where I told the guys, I was like, give me a week to get like to

02:22:43.700 move my stuff and then I'll start.

02:22:45.500 And that week, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, like what's happening?

02:22:48.780 It was crazy.

02:22:49.380 People think that kidney stones are like you're going to the bathroom and all of a sudden you're

02:22:51.600 like, no, it's like in your body, up in your back, like in your gut.

02:22:55.860 But it, it, they thought it was appendicitis at first.

02:22:58.400 Yeah.

02:22:58.820 I went to the hospital for, I think like two days and they charged me something like 40

02:23:03.020 grand.

02:23:03.840 No insurance.

02:23:05.080 It was because I had just left.

02:23:06.780 So they sent me a bill and they were, I'm like, holy crap.

02:23:10.340 So I call and I was like, I just left my job and I have a one week lapse in my insurance.

02:23:15.280 And they went, oh, oh, no problem.

02:23:17.440 And then they emailed me the new bill and it was four grand.

02:23:19.640 And then I was like, no, hold on there a minute.

02:23:22.100 What happened?

02:23:23.160 There's definitely.

02:23:23.880 Fortunately, shout out to all the complaints I've had about fusion.

02:23:26.400 They said, don't worry, man, we're going to pay for it for you.

02:23:28.420 That shouldn't have happened to you.

02:23:29.220 And I said, thank you.

02:23:29.980 Yeah.

02:23:30.900 But like the idea that I went to the hospital for two days and they did nothing for me.

02:23:35.700 Now, to be fair, I shouldn't say that.

02:23:38.040 I got put in like a CAT scan or whatever.

02:23:41.160 They're trying to figure out what it was.

02:23:42.280 They thought I had appendicitis.

02:23:43.180 And they're like, you may need to have to get surgery right away.

02:23:44.940 And they were like, good news.

02:23:46.480 It's a kidney stone.

02:23:47.500 And I was like, that sounds like terrible.

02:23:48.980 And it's like, well, we're not getting surgery.

02:23:50.240 It just means go home.

02:23:51.080 Well, now, you know, Tim, what it's like to have a baby.

02:23:53.520 So.

02:23:53.740 Oh, yeah, apparently.

02:23:54.660 That's apparently the equivalent pain.

02:23:56.500 Was it a viable stone, though?

02:23:58.100 Was it what?

02:23:58.620 Was it a viable stone?

02:23:59.700 Did you like keep it and raise it to be your own?

02:24:02.360 No.

02:24:03.060 But the point is.

02:24:05.580 All they did was give me painkillers and a diagnosis and then told me to leave.

02:24:10.200 And for that, it was like 40 grand.

02:24:12.900 And I'm like, no, no, wait a minute.

02:24:14.940 Like, I can understand.

02:24:16.100 But if that happened to you, by the way, in France or Germany, you know, like, or Italy.

02:24:20.160 It's like 20 bucks or something.

02:24:21.820 It could be free.

02:24:23.080 Yeah.

02:24:23.720 And but so my question is, how did they drop it by by 90 percent?

02:24:27.060 And they and they didn't give me an answer.

02:24:28.240 They're just like, oh, it's a discount.

02:24:29.320 And I'm like, what's going on?

02:24:32.660 Why are the costs this way?

02:24:34.280 Now, look, I know the left often says the insurance companies are corrupt and they're

02:24:37.220 driving it.

02:24:37.600 But I can tell you this.

02:24:38.700 They were trying to bill the insurance company 40 grand.

02:24:41.320 And then when they found out I didn't have insurance, they said four grand.

02:24:45.020 Oh, no, no.

02:24:45.580 Corporate hospital chains are really bad, too.

02:24:47.660 They're they're all a part of a sick system that needs to be dismantled.

02:24:50.560 And I completely agree.

02:24:51.720 They're sick system.

02:24:53.120 That was not even intentional.

02:24:54.960 Yeah.

02:24:55.080 Whole system is broken.

02:24:56.120 I don't I don't think I have the absolute answers.

02:24:58.580 I don't know for sure.

02:24:59.500 I just think like I see these stories.

02:25:01.140 There was one kid who was like 15, got the flu and died.

02:25:04.080 And I'm like, how does that happen?

02:25:05.080 And the mom was like, I couldn't afford Tamiflu and I'm like, it's like thirty dollars.

02:25:08.300 There was a horrible story of that guy who was a diabetic and then he couldn't afford

02:25:13.040 the 50 bucks for his insulin and he dies.

02:25:14.480 And I'm like, well, hold on.

02:25:15.720 I'll give him the money like I can give him the money.

02:25:17.880 I will gladly.

02:25:19.100 So the challenge, I suppose, is if we do increase taxes to pay for this, do we really

02:25:24.140 trust the system to not be corrupt and just steal it?

02:25:26.680 Well, I do, because I think that there are models in Canada, in the UK, in Germany.

02:25:31.040 But the United States has prison systems the way it is with our tax money, too.

02:25:33.680 You know what I mean?

02:25:34.120 Like if we can clean the corruption up, I'm on board for a lot.

02:25:37.080 I think that's the question.

02:25:38.120 All right.

02:25:38.400 Well, then there's something we can work on there, Tim.

02:25:40.680 Yeah, I think like a lot of the conversations I have about taxes, people will be like, I

02:25:43.920 oppose taxes because look what the government does with it.

02:25:45.860 And I'm like, so you oppose corruption.

02:25:47.620 You know what I mean?

02:25:47.940 Like if you were told that you were getting a really sweet deal at discount price, you

02:25:50.940 wouldn't be complaining about it when you're told that they take your money and go blow

02:25:53.540 up kids with it and then, you know, beat prisoners or whatever nonsense.

02:25:56.740 I can understand why you're upset.

02:25:58.300 The concept of taxes doesn't bother me.

02:26:00.040 The concept of the government not being held accountable and corruption emerging from it

02:26:04.440 bothers me.

02:26:05.500 And like our tax dollars, not even our tax dollars, but printing money and giving it

02:26:08.640 to massive pharmaceutical companies or war, then I'm just like, now I can understand why,

02:26:13.200 you know, someone can come out and say taxation is theft.

02:26:15.440 I disagree.

02:26:16.760 But I understand their point.

02:26:18.140 And I'm kind of just like, you know, it's really hard to argue against someone who says

02:26:20.460 that when we know that a lot of evil people are stealing our money for evil things.

02:26:24.760 Like, how do you how do you clean that up?

02:26:26.540 I think you clean that up and most people are going to be fine with it.

02:26:28.920 You know what I mean?

02:26:29.260 Like, sure.

02:26:30.100 If you were if you were spending 50 bucks a month on Netflix and you knew that only it

02:26:34.300 only, you know, like 40 bucks is going to some random guy to go beat dogs, you'd be

02:26:37.840 like, I'm not going to give Netflix any money anymore.

02:26:40.880 Well, how do those dogs look?

02:26:42.720 That's right.

02:26:43.340 It's like, are they are they foreign dogs?

02:26:45.440 Like, yeah, so I take issues with that.

02:26:47.540 And I'm kind of like, you know, if you knew that you were contributing to a system that

02:26:51.040 was using your money as efficiently as possible, you'd be like, OK, you know, I'm getting some

02:26:55.600 good from it for some reason, like, like, you know, a lot of people on the right, they

02:26:58.920 don't want to defund the cops, but the cops have a lot of broken issues within their systems

02:27:02.740 that need to be fixed as well.

02:27:04.080 And I think just saying like the extremes of defund the police or just not don't really

02:27:11.040 get to the problem of there's something wrong in the justice system as a whole.

02:27:15.440 Yeah, I would say I think societies are high are more comfortable with taxes when they

02:27:22.220 have higher social trust.

02:27:23.400 But I will say there is something to the fact beyond corruption that nobody's ever going

02:27:27.400 to be as careful spending your money as you.

02:27:30.120 So like there is something that's just going to be inherently wasted when you transfer it

02:27:34.260 to bureaucrats when it's not their money.

02:27:36.040 So here's here's the funny thing.

02:27:38.020 We'll start to we'll start to wrap it up.

02:27:39.180 Yeah, I drank too much coffee.

02:27:41.900 I got to run to the restroom.

02:27:42.740 All right.

02:27:43.180 This is true.

02:27:44.880 I'm not your buddy guy saying why are we listening to three lefties debate politics?

02:27:49.000 Where is the right wing representation?

02:27:50.800 That's hey, man, I don't know what show you're watching here.

02:27:54.060 So but I think that's the the like, I guess the final final thought I'll say on this is

02:27:59.420 that I think for shows like yours, you exist on a political space where you assume everybody

02:28:06.980 to your right is right wing, even moderates and centrists and liberals.

02:28:11.860 I think I know some moderates and their politics are definitely to the left of yours.

02:28:16.100 And I have a lot of Republican friends, too.

02:28:19.120 And I debate these issues with them on a regular basis.

02:28:22.680 So your your politics is a lot closer to theirs, to be honest, based on what I've heard.

02:28:28.120 I mean, it's weird to say conservatives would be just prove me wrong.

02:28:31.020 We talk about socialized health care all the time on your show.

02:28:33.280 And well, I'll be looking for it now.

02:28:35.720 It's crazy, too.

02:28:36.520 Like the abortion thing we talk about a lot like ad nauseum.

02:28:39.940 But it's weird because in this culture war, the tribal left, whatever you want to call

02:28:45.740 it, I'm not saying all leftists, but the tribal commentary left is like, like, I'll

02:28:49.860 give you an example.

02:28:50.460 The Young Turks did a video where they called me ugly because I talked about attractive

02:28:54.680 attraction privilege.

02:28:55.620 I think I don't know how you call it beauty privilege or whatever.

02:28:58.140 And I was talking about how conservatives are more likely to be attractive because it's

02:29:02.100 easier to go through a life as an attractive person.

02:29:04.640 Thus, you're given benefits that you associate to your abilities instead of society.

02:29:09.960 Resulting in a conservative worldview.

02:29:11.380 And those who are less attractive have it harder, resulting in a collectivist worldview.

02:29:15.680 And instead of just like telling me I was wrong, they just called me ugly.

02:29:19.440 Well, I mean, do you have statistics to back up your...

02:29:22.960 Yes.

02:29:23.440 But who decides who's ugly and who's unattractive?

02:29:26.460 So they did studies where they would show images of people to men and women and ask

02:29:30.960 them to write them on a scale of one to 10, then create a curve of attractive attraction.

02:29:35.780 And those people that they showed pictures of, they had interviewed them on their political

02:29:38.960 leanings and found a correlation between attraction and political leaning.

02:29:42.860 I'm sorry, beauty, perceived beauty and political leanings.

02:29:45.800 But this is like not even controversial among the left.

02:29:48.400 This is this is privilege.

02:29:49.480 Hey, if we're on the right side of things and we're uglier, I'm totally fine with that.

02:29:53.580 But so what happens is you go through life and you're ugly.

02:29:57.480 People are meaner to you.

02:29:58.620 They're less interested in you.

02:29:59.700 You have a harder time of things.

02:30:01.020 You're going to lean towards collectivist approaches to things like we need to work

02:30:03.960 together to fix these problems.

02:30:05.580 But if every if you're attractive and people are nice to you all the time, it's like that

02:30:09.140 30 Rock episode, The Bubble, where I love 30 Rock that was that guys that John Hamm

02:30:14.040 is like everyone's super nice to him.

02:30:15.660 He thought he was really good at everything, but he was just attractive.

02:30:18.960 And but like my point is not to talk about that.

02:30:21.480 My point is.

02:30:23.140 To just insult me instead of address the issue, I disagree with the ad hominem, but, you

02:30:28.360 know, it's not me, so well, anyway, I think we should wrap it up a little bit long.

02:30:31.720 Do you guys want to say anything before you finish?

02:30:33.920 Well, it got a little heated, but I appreciate you having me on, Tim, for sure.

02:30:37.560 And I know you don't want to have Sam on, but I hope you reconsider.

02:30:40.820 I think it could be a good discussion.

02:30:42.680 Yeah, there is.

02:30:44.640 I will say it with absolute conviction.

02:30:49.440 There's a lot of people who have blacklisted that guy from from various shows, and he

02:30:53.240 knows it.

02:30:53.740 Yeah, he's talked about it.

02:30:54.880 He wears it like a badge of honor, but he needs to stop saying it's because they're

02:30:58.360 scared of him.

02:30:59.140 It's because he's a dick.

02:31:00.640 I think he might be both.

02:31:02.340 It might be both.

02:31:03.400 No one's scared of him.

02:31:04.720 All right.

02:31:05.180 Like I've had like it's not my business to bring up other podcasts and networks in general,

02:31:11.280 but the set like I've even had people ask me and I'm like, well, I don't know.

02:31:15.060 Look, man, you know, we're willing to have people on the show and then they'll highlight

02:31:17.440 something he did and they're like that cross the line.

02:31:19.400 And I'm like, all right, you know, right.

02:31:21.420 Well, if it look, if it's about free flow, didn't he say he was going to kill somebody?

02:31:25.980 I don't think so.

02:31:27.140 Was it Patrick, David?

02:31:28.580 I have no idea.

02:31:29.900 I could be wrong about this, but I yeah, I probably I'm pretty sure you're wrong about

02:31:34.480 this.

02:31:35.180 Let me see if I can look it up.

02:31:36.160 That Sam was going to kill somebody in a karate battle or like it was something like if he

02:31:42.960 had if he had the right and he would hang the rich, he would hang Patrick, but David or

02:31:47.580 something like that.

02:31:48.000 That was a joke.

02:31:50.000 All right.

02:31:50.440 Well, I don't know too much about it.

02:31:51.700 I can tell you it's like he's sarcastic jokes like that freak people out, I guess.

02:31:57.940 So you can call it a joke.

02:31:58.960 I think he was responding to something I can't.

02:32:02.580 Again, these are these are people who are not myself.

02:32:04.540 And I do 15 hours of new content on my program every day.

02:32:07.820 So or every week.

02:32:08.820 So it's hard for me to keep track.

02:32:10.400 Right on.

02:32:11.100 Sean.

02:32:11.600 Yeah.

02:32:11.880 So you can find me on YouTube at actual justice warrior on Twitter at I am Sean 90.

02:32:16.860 And as for Sam Teter, I'm also a New Yorker.

02:32:19.780 I will not only go on his show in studio and debate him.

02:32:23.580 I will also take him out to dinner, hang out with him, become his best friend, maybe even

02:32:28.660 wear matching shirts and all of that.

02:32:30.400 So I am available.

02:32:31.480 I'm not afraid of Sam Teter.

02:32:32.940 So, you know, deliver the message.

02:32:34.640 Love it.

02:32:35.100 Right on.

02:32:35.400 Well, I really do appreciate you coming.

02:32:36.960 For sure.

02:32:37.500 It was great.

02:32:38.220 And Sean, thanks for joining in.

02:32:40.260 And we're trying to figure out how to do this properly.

02:32:44.720 You know, I think because of who I am, it's impossible for just to like me to sit back

02:32:50.040 and have people have a conversation.

02:32:50.980 So I do want to apologize because you're definitely two against one, like both of us.

02:32:55.220 Although on the Ukraine thing, you guys definitely had me.

02:32:57.280 I don't know.

02:32:57.600 I'm like, I'm looking at these both of you.

02:32:58.740 I'm like, what's going on here?

02:33:00.120 So just for the future for everybody, we'll try and make sure that it does not so like

02:33:05.780 I felt like we were very two against one.

02:33:07.020 It wasn't very fair.

02:33:07.700 You know what I mean?

02:33:08.560 Yeah.

02:33:08.860 Well, I mean, I don't know.

02:33:09.980 At times.

02:33:10.620 I can handle it.

02:33:12.140 Right on.

02:33:12.500 Well, thanks for coming.

02:33:13.300 Thank you.

02:33:13.600 And for everybody who watched, thanks for watching and become a member at Timcast.com.

02:33:18.600 We have a lot of more shows like this ramping up next week.

02:33:23.580 The week after that, we're having a really, really big one in a couple of weeks.

02:33:26.160 We're getting some celebrities who are interested and I'm really impressed and excited.

02:33:29.840 Am I sitting where Kanye sat?

02:33:31.320 No, no.

02:33:31.780 That's that one.

02:33:32.600 Oh.

02:33:33.160 So I'm just sitting where...

02:33:33.600 Who's day?

02:33:34.260 You're sitting where Seamus sat.

02:33:35.520 No, he sat there.

02:33:36.500 Oh, yikes.

02:33:38.140 Who else was on that night?

02:33:41.480 Wasn't Luke on?

02:33:42.520 No.

02:33:42.940 Ian and Luke were on.

02:33:44.020 Myself.

02:33:44.500 Was it Luke?

02:33:44.940 Oh, yeah.

02:33:45.260 It was Luke.

02:33:45.640 Luke was sitting in that chair.

02:33:46.500 Anyway, we'll wrap it up.

02:33:47.780 Thanks so much for hanging out, everybody.

02:33:49.420 I hope it was to you exactly what you thought it was going to be.

02:33:52.200 And now both the left and the right can make clips about who owned whom and when.

02:33:55.480 Thanks for hanging out.

02:33:56.320 And we'll see you all next time.

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The Culture War - Tim Pool - June 23, 2023

The Culture War #18 - Emma Vigeland & Sean Fitzgerald, Debating Crime And Social Issues

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