The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #29 - From Gamergate To Civil War w⧸Brianna Wu & Alex Baldwin

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00:00:58.140 So, how did all of this start? The culture war, where we are today in politics?

00:01:10.340 Some say, for those that pay attention heavily to electoral politics, that Donald Trump's emergence,

00:01:16.520 that phenomenon resulted in this, but there was a lot of stuff that was going on well before this.

00:01:20.160 And there are many people who believe Gamergate was the beginning of the culture war.

00:01:23.780 I think that's a fair assessment. There were certain things going on that, with media outlets,

00:01:29.840 with Facebook, with the algorithms, that ultimately lead to this phenomenon, which leads to things like

00:01:34.900 Gamergate. But I think this was the first time we got a higher level political conversation.

00:01:39.960 And I wonder if it actually has anything to do with politics and more so to do with just a bifurcated

00:01:46.080 generation. Two different tribes of younger people, two different worldviews, and as they get older

00:01:52.120 and move into the political spaces, their divergent worldviews eventually clash.

00:01:57.140 We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more.

00:01:59.260 Joining us to talk about this, we have Brianna Wu.

00:02:02.060 Good to meet you, Tim.

00:02:03.420 Yes, thanks for coming. Do you want to introduce yourself?

00:02:05.520 Yes, my name is Brianna Wu.

00:02:07.320 I think I'm a retired four-star general in the culture war.

00:02:11.980 Today, I run a PAC with Cenk Uygur over at TYT. Very proud to do that.

00:02:18.120 And, you know, Tim, I know I've said some snarky things about you online, so I appreciate

00:02:23.520 you inviting me to your home, nonetheless.

00:02:25.820 Oh, no, right on. Absolutely.

00:02:27.120 And then we have Alex Baldwin. Do you want to grab that mic?

00:02:29.280 That's me. I hope this works.

00:02:32.280 I'm Alex. I'm also known as the Hat Man.

00:02:34.800 This hat right here is what I'm known for.

00:02:37.540 I was the head moderator on Reddit.

00:02:41.240 Make your jokes now, please.

00:02:43.760 Before Kotaku in Action, which was the Gamergate subreddit.

00:02:47.400 And basically, that's how I built my not-so-cult following.

00:02:52.560 Well, so how do we begin then?

00:02:54.860 Do one of you want to explain Gamergate or where we're at?

00:02:58.080 Well, I can certainly explain Gamergate, but I think the reason Alex and I are both here today

00:03:02.620 is, you know, we've had 10 years to reflect on this.

00:03:05.480 You know, Alex, I consider us friends at this point.

00:03:08.180 He literally ran the Gamergate subreddit, Tim.

00:03:11.480 And something the two of us feel very strongly about is a lot of people made money and got

00:03:17.160 what they wanted from Gamergate.

00:03:18.780 Neither of us got anything we were fighting for.

00:03:21.620 I look at women's rights 10 years later.

00:03:24.780 It's not in a better place from before Gamergate.

00:03:27.180 The things you were fighting for as far as wanting journalism and, you know, more openness

00:03:32.220 in how game journalists were reporting things, I don't think that's in a better state today.

00:03:37.240 You know, I think what I really came here to talk to you about, Tim, is, you know, I think

00:03:41.560 the entire premise of your show, Culture War, I think it's flawed.

00:03:44.720 I think you have two veterans here on different sides who have really come to the conclusion

00:03:49.020 that this is not a way forward for our country.

00:03:52.480 It's a war that cannot be won.

00:03:54.120 Well, what's the premise that's flawed?

00:03:56.320 That we need to have a culture war and we need to be fanning these issues that are on

00:04:00.220 the side, having very hyperbolic, you know, approaches to talking to each other.

00:04:06.000 The thing I've learned...

00:04:07.600 We don't do that.

00:04:09.200 I think I have a different assessment, respectfully.

00:04:11.280 But what I wanted to say is the conclusion I've come to is I think if you're really serious

00:04:17.840 about making women's lives better in this country, you know, talking and screaming each

00:04:23.400 other on Twitter, I don't think it's an effective way forward.

00:04:26.440 I think we need to be far more focused on policies that improve women's lives.

00:04:30.960 And I think that's one of the main thing that feminists miss during Gamergate.

00:04:34.420 So in what way, I guess, would you say that this show engages in that kind of behavior?

00:04:40.640 You know, Tim, so one of my goals today is I don't want to be contentious with you.

00:04:46.280 You know, I did watch a lot of your show preparing for this.

00:04:50.380 I think that respectfully, you tend to really inflame these culture war points.

00:04:56.100 I watched your segment with Jackson Hinkle.

00:04:58.420 I've seen how you talk about the left and Joe Biden and Democrats in general.

00:05:02.620 I think it's very hyperbolic.

00:05:04.220 I don't think it's good for the country or the conversation.

00:05:06.780 So anything in specific that we could use as a launching point to discuss?

00:05:11.660 Do you really, do you want this whole time to be talking about you?

00:05:14.080 I'd really rather talk about the issues.

00:05:16.020 I'm asking you to bring up an issue that we could use as a launching point to discuss.

00:05:19.020 Sure.

00:05:19.360 Because just saying like your show does bad isn't anything I can really elaborate on.

00:05:23.320 That's fair.

00:05:23.860 That's fair.

00:05:24.360 So let's talk about the Jackson Hinkle.

00:05:27.140 No, I'll tell you what, how about the Liberty Safe thing you did yesterday?

00:05:30.920 I watched this segment on that.

00:05:32.220 And you're talking about, well, leftists believe this, leftists want to take away your guns.

00:05:37.240 I didn't say that.

00:05:37.840 Leftists are, people on your show did.

00:05:40.420 No one said that.

00:05:41.280 Leftists are going to be upset about this.

00:05:42.900 Nobody said that.

00:05:44.420 People don't watch the segment.

00:05:45.900 Right.

00:05:46.160 And for sure.

00:05:46.760 So one thing we're very clear about is that leftists are pro-gun.

00:05:49.640 Some leftists are pro-gun.

00:05:50.620 A large portion like the John Brown Gun Club, the Red Guard.

00:05:53.160 You've got a lot of organizations that are more revolutionary, are very pro-gun.

00:05:57.220 So we didn't say that.

00:05:58.940 That's not something we talked about.

00:06:00.200 I hear what you're saying.

00:06:02.340 I respect it.

00:06:03.120 I watched the segment.

00:06:04.040 I came to a different conclusion.

00:06:05.820 My point here is I think there are, even if I will give you the premise just for the

00:06:10.580 sake of a discussion here, your show is not part of this.

00:06:13.460 I think it is.

00:06:14.140 But just to move forward, let's say other shows are doing this.

00:06:17.680 I think we are so, I think we are madmen with our hands around each other's throats.

00:06:24.000 And I think we cannot let go.

00:06:25.760 You did a segment with Jackson Hinkle that I found tremendously disturbing.

00:06:31.240 And, you know, I think he was here talking about a bunch of, frankly, pro-Kremlin talking

00:06:36.660 points.

00:06:37.360 And the whole time I'm watching it, Tim, I'm thinking about how the whole reason that Vladimir

00:06:42.820 Putin chose to invade Ukraine at this particular moment is we are so divided.

00:06:48.740 He sees us as weak and stupid and unable to agree on anything.

00:06:55.080 And I think January 6th was really his moment that he knew America was too divided to stop

00:07:01.800 what he wanted to do.

00:07:03.280 I do think that division is a function of the culture war.

00:07:07.080 I agree.

00:07:07.620 Yeah.

00:07:07.780 And I think I actually agree Vladimir Putin took the opportunity, January 6th being a

00:07:13.400 component of the division in America, to say if war is to escalate in Eastern Europe war

00:07:19.320 and say the Pacific theater, the U.S. is in serious trouble because it can't even agree

00:07:22.920 with itself how to respond to these things.

00:07:24.900 That's right.

00:07:25.440 So if you've got Republicans just saying no to funding Ukraine's, the war in Ukraine,

00:07:31.980 Democrats saying yes to funding it, Vladimir Putin, China, they've got, they've basically

00:07:36.300 got carte blanche to a certain degree because the United States, if it escalates to a direct

00:07:41.120 confrontation with NATO, which it's on the verge of doing, we vote out, we voted out.

00:07:47.120 I mean, you're going to get a lot of people who are going to vote for someone like Donald

00:07:49.280 Trump to avoid getting involved in international conflict.

00:07:51.780 So just a quick fact check.

00:07:53.700 You said a moment ago that you brought up liberals that support guns.

00:07:57.920 There are a lot of liberals that support guns.

00:07:59.300 Well, leftists and liberals are different.

00:08:00.540 Sure.

00:08:00.860 Fair enough.

00:08:01.580 There are a lot of people on the left that support guns.

00:08:03.780 Because when I watched the Republican primary debates a couple of days ago, sure seemed

00:08:08.680 like the only person there that was not for funding Ukraine was Vivek.

00:08:13.120 So I do think there's a lot of people with national security experience in the Republican

00:08:18.140 party that support what we're doing in Ukraine.

00:08:21.140 Yeah.

00:08:21.680 Yeah.

00:08:22.420 Vivek, I believe, was staunchly opposed to it.

00:08:25.120 Yeah.

00:08:25.400 Nikki Haley, I think, was probably the most in favor of it.

00:08:28.300 Yeah.

00:08:28.800 Mike Pence was very for it.

00:08:30.120 Right.

00:08:30.600 Yeah.

00:08:30.720 Nikki Haley was very, very much like boisterous.

00:08:34.080 I mean, they all were in favor of U.S. intervention in Eastern Europe.

00:08:37.880 Right.

00:08:38.440 Yeah.

00:08:38.720 Don't you think their foreign policy experience might be why the right and the left are kind

00:08:44.680 of agreeing on this at the top levels?

00:08:46.700 But the right and the left aren't agreeing on it.

00:08:49.160 Trump's position is anti the funding of Ukraine.

00:08:52.180 His position is he stops the war overnight if he gets elected, whether that's true or not.

00:08:57.120 He's got the majority of the Republican primary polling.

00:09:00.120 Sure.

00:09:00.720 So he's he's the clear favorite.

00:09:02.380 To be fair, though, I mean, if you were to combine all of the other candidates polling,

00:09:06.340 which is fairly pro minus DeSantis and minus DeSantis is a bit middle of the road, minus

00:09:11.400 DeSantis and Vivek, you've probably got around, what, 28 to 30 percent GOP support for intervention

00:09:16.500 in Ukraine.

00:09:17.420 But I think if you actually do polling directly on U.S.

00:09:20.540 involvement in Ukraine, it's it's it's lower than that in the Republican Party.

00:09:23.700 Yeah, I think that, you know, what I find in my job, which is running a pack and doing

00:09:30.020 a lot of polling and missions like that, I do find that Ukraine is not a top thing.

00:09:35.900 And, you know, one of the things I think people like you and I sometimes forget is we're tuned

00:09:40.700 into this stuff 24 seven.

00:09:42.420 I subscribe to like five newspapers.

00:09:44.480 I watch every show I can all day on YouTube.

00:09:47.860 Normal people are out there.

00:09:49.400 They're thinking about drug prices.

00:09:50.580 They're thinking about their house.

00:09:51.620 They're thinking about inflation.

00:09:53.020 They're not as focused on foreign policy as you and I are.

00:09:57.140 And I think one of the reasons I think you're really wrong about the Biden administration,

00:10:01.400 I think I think sometimes when I've watched your show, you can tell me if I'm wrong here.

00:10:06.420 It's felt like you've characterized the Biden administration as eager or very happy to be supporting

00:10:12.740 Ukraine.

00:10:13.180 I think from the Biden administration's position, every single presidential administration since

00:10:18.600 George Bush has wanted to do a pivot to Asia as far as our foreign policy.

00:10:23.180 There's a whole world out there besides, you know, the Middle East and Russia, and they've

00:10:28.560 wanted to look at China, which I think both you and I would agree is an increasing threat

00:10:32.640 to the national security of the United States.

00:10:35.160 And I think when Putin invaded the Ukraine, I think there were a lot of people in the Biden

00:10:41.100 administration that were thinking of the domestic agenda that they had really focused on, that

00:10:46.220 they would be unable to really push forward as much as they believe because Vladimir Putin

00:10:52.240 was going to be such a mission priority.

00:10:54.320 Yeah.

00:10:54.440 If you go back to right before the transition, 2016 into 17 with Donald Trump, the Obama

00:11:01.160 administration's position was that China is not the threat.

00:11:03.180 That was the conversation with Michael Flynn that Vladimir Putin was.

00:11:05.840 So I don't, I don't think the past administrations have, I mean, maybe they say they want to

00:11:10.480 pivot to Asia, but if you take a look at the policies regarding the Middle East, Syria,

00:11:14.340 Turkey into Ukraine and Europe with Russia and their gas monopoly and things, I think this

00:11:19.560 is exactly where they want to be.

00:11:21.760 I think, I think the United States feels forced into it.

00:11:25.940 I mean, I think you and I would probably agree that our long stay in Afghanistan was a serious

00:11:31.740 foreign policy mistake that frankly got friends of mine killed.

00:11:36.080 You know, there've been a lot of missteps in trying to withdraw from that region.

00:11:39.880 I just, my, my main point here is I feel like you've mischaracterized what the Biden

00:11:44.340 administration wants to be focused on.

00:11:46.400 I think this is something they feel forced to focus on.

00:11:49.120 And that's fine, but that's an, that's an opinion based on the assessment of facts.

00:11:52.000 Sure.

00:11:52.120 So if we're looking at a Biden administration, that's put a quarter of a trillion dollars

00:11:56.240 into 250 billion, right into, uh, into Ukraine, to that conflict specifically.

00:12:01.980 And if you take a look at the history, going back to the two thousands with policy on, on

00:12:06.100 Syria, the Qatar Turkey pipeline, gas prom, et cetera, uh, they're doing exactly what they've

00:12:10.860 been doing for the past several decades.

00:12:12.200 Yep.

00:12:12.960 There.

00:12:13.500 So I think this is where, you know, I've watched your show.

00:12:16.240 Um, yeah, I know sometimes like when Emma was on, you criticized her for not watching your

00:12:20.820 show.

00:12:21.060 I actually watched a lot of your show preparing for this.

00:12:23.280 Um, so I think one of the, the ways that I would differ with you is I think generally

00:12:30.640 speaking, directionally, when I've watched your show, I feel like you feel the United

00:12:35.600 States is strongest when we withdraw from the world and we are not an active participant

00:12:41.300 in geopolitics.

00:12:42.860 Well, I mean, we'll hold on saying if I'm mischaracterizing you, please let me know.

00:12:46.320 Yeah.

00:12:46.400 Saying, saying putting 250 billion into a, into the, into the Eastern European war front when

00:12:51.520 we're not prioritizing, say like lead pipes in Flint, Michigan is a hundred percent.

00:12:56.600 Right.

00:12:56.800 So how about before we decide that we're going to fund Ukrainians in their war with

00:13:00.860 Russia, not even a NATO nation or EU nation.

00:13:04.720 I mean, why don't we help the people in Newark, Pittsburgh, Flint, et cetera, who have lead in

00:13:08.460 their pipes and their kids are dying?

00:13:09.500 Why don't, why don't we, how about we get universal healthcare before we go to war?

00:13:12.420 Look, I'm a hundred percent with you.

00:13:13.800 There's no excuse for us having failed on that.

00:13:16.000 Just as a fact check, it is factual that many of the weapons that we have sent to Ukraine

00:13:22.260 were sitting here in the United States in warehouses.

00:13:25.860 There was a huge cost to us keeping that and maintaining it.

00:13:29.320 And many of them were scheduled for decommission anyway.

00:13:32.300 And there's an under discussed fact that in many ways we're getting rid of these things

00:13:37.620 that we were going to have to take apart anyway.

00:13:39.500 And there's a cost savings there that said, you know, I fully agree that we should be

00:13:45.200 focused more on domestic policy in this country.

00:13:47.920 I think if you look at the accomplishments of the Biden administration, the Inflation

00:13:52.040 Reduction Act is clearly, you know, his biggest accomplishment, right?

00:13:57.020 It's not enough domestically.

00:13:58.480 What specifically in the Inflation Reduction Act would you point to?

00:14:01.740 Oh, gosh.

00:14:02.700 Well, I think the fact that, you know, gas prices are, what is it, a dollar.

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00:15:05.460 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:15:10.480 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell

00:15:15.100 our clients that we really care about you.

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00:15:31.400 Did I mention that we care?

00:15:32.840 $1.80 less than their peak in 2022.

00:15:38.800 I think a national unemployment rate of 3.5%.

00:15:42.360 The United States is not the only country in the world that has dealt with inflation,

00:15:46.640 but I think we have gotten under control faster than other developed countries.

00:15:51.940 I think it's been a good success.

00:15:53.300 I wonder, though, it's hard for me to give an assessment on that considering COVID overlapping

00:15:58.180 the Trump administration and the Biden administration.

00:16:00.220 So setting a metric on how much we've improved is difficult considering COVID lockdowns.

00:16:04.600 I agree.

00:16:05.280 And just to add on to that, I think if the Biden administration continues to say the economy

00:16:11.380 is good, the economy is good.

00:16:13.100 More Americans are working than ever before.

00:16:15.580 Can we swear on this show?

00:16:17.100 We try not to.

00:16:17.820 We're effed if we continue down this path.

00:16:22.580 People don't feel that way.

00:16:23.900 People feel like things are getting worse.

00:16:25.580 That's right.

00:16:26.040 And now you've got, I don't know exactly where we're at with the Fed raising interest rates,

00:16:30.040 but it's getting quite alarming, in fact.

00:16:33.100 And I'm wondering if, you know, as student loans start kicking in, the people who haven't

00:16:36.760 been paying over the past several years are not going to be able to start paying now.

00:16:39.100 I agree.

00:16:39.380 So it doesn't seem like, you know, whatever the Inflation Reduction Act may do, I do think

00:16:43.880 the name is one of those, right?

00:16:45.560 They give these bills names to make it look like, you know, Patriot Act or whatever.

00:16:49.440 Right, right, right.

00:16:50.160 But I'm quite concerned about where the economy goes.

00:16:52.520 And I'm not an economist.

00:16:53.580 I just, I can see what the Fed is doing.

00:16:55.940 And I can see how, I mean, you got two big indicators socially, which is like Michael

00:17:02.140 Burry saying, or the reports that Michael Burry took a $1.6 billion short against the U.S.

00:17:06.940 stock market.

00:17:07.420 But, and he's the guy from the big short, right?

00:17:10.240 And so I'm wondering if he's looking at it similarly to how the housing crisis happened

00:17:13.680 in that the government gives out student loans to people who don't have a career and there's

00:17:18.020 no indication they'll be able to pay that money back.

00:17:19.920 And now with student loans kicking back in, we may be looking at something similar, not

00:17:23.820 the same because I don't know, I don't think they're doing student loan backed securities

00:17:26.500 or anything like that.

00:17:27.180 But when these people stop paying, there's going to be a hiccup, which is going to cause a

00:17:30.420 serious issue.

00:17:31.200 More importantly, to add to that, if young people can't buy houses, then the housing market

00:17:35.860 ceases to exist.

00:17:36.600 I mean, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to plummet when we're looking at millennials

00:17:39.880 into their mid to late thirties and they can't buy homes.

00:17:43.460 Then, then what do you do?

00:17:44.740 I mean, the price of the value of the house has to collapse.

00:17:46.640 Tim, I'm a hundred percent there with you.

00:17:48.340 I think, um, you know, one of the things I think the Biden administration, uh, has not

00:17:52.100 communicated effectively and certainly not solved is, um, two things, car prices and house

00:17:58.000 prices.

00:17:58.460 So, you know, my husband and I, we were fortunate enough to buy our first house.

00:18:01.840 God, what year was it?

00:18:04.100 2017, 2018.

00:18:06.180 Yeah.

00:18:06.360 We got it for 600,000.

00:18:08.080 That cost, my house is nearly doubled in value.

00:18:11.140 Right.

00:18:11.640 In those years.

00:18:12.220 It's really doubled.

00:18:13.240 You know what I mean?

00:18:13.700 Right.

00:18:14.000 It's certainly not worth it.

00:18:14.960 It is a mediocre, like my own realtor, when we bought it, called it a mediocre, forgettable

00:18:20.680 split level in Denham, Massachusetts.

00:18:23.260 It's just a normal house.

00:18:24.920 Like, it's great.

00:18:26.000 I love owning a house, but it's not, you know, a compound like you've got, um, just a normal

00:18:31.440 house.

00:18:31.900 And it's a million dollars for most people out 20, 30 minutes outside of Boston.

00:18:36.960 That's crazy.

00:18:38.000 It's worth more than this.

00:18:39.100 No one.

00:18:39.880 Well, I mean, really, even with all the, we're in the middle of nowhere.

00:18:44.420 Yeah.

00:18:45.200 So you get, you get really nice.

00:18:46.680 You get, yeah.

00:18:47.640 To be fair though, this is also modular.

00:18:49.300 Yeah.

00:18:49.600 Right.

00:18:49.760 This was just like hodgepodge connect the dots construction.

00:18:52.760 So this, the building that we're in for those that are, are wondering, it's, uh, I think

00:18:55.620 it's like 10,000 square feet.

00:18:56.920 Right.

00:18:57.440 To come back to the point though, you know, rent, I really do believe that large data,

00:19:02.280 um, aggregation has one of the major factors rent in the United States has skyrocketed because

00:19:07.820 you've got landlords using large data.

00:19:10.640 There was a really good, um, um, uh, uh, report that came out recently on this talking

00:19:16.120 about how they will figure out how to push the rent higher, higher, higher, higher, higher,

00:19:19.700 higher to the point people will actually pay it.

00:19:22.920 And it's caused this huge skyrocket in rent all across the United States.

00:19:27.220 Uh, additionally, I don't know if you follow the account, uh, car dealership guy on Twitter,

00:19:31.940 really, really interesting person.

00:19:34.100 He does a lot of data, um, research into used car prices.

00:19:38.060 Um, I collect and restore old Porsches.

00:19:40.660 So I love this account and, you know, he's talking about how you've got, uh, used car dealerships

00:19:46.300 just absolutely folding in Florida right now.

00:19:48.760 The prices have gone through the roof.

00:19:50.560 The inventory is down and you've got even wholesale businesses that cannot make any money

00:19:55.880 from this, you know, the United States is a, you have to have a car to get around and

00:20:00.360 just normal people are priced out of it.

00:20:02.240 It's, this is not tenable.

00:20:03.860 It's, it's, it's a house of cards.

00:20:05.500 Yeah.

00:20:05.680 I mean, that maybe that's why Michael Burry is betting against it because the value of

00:20:09.540 something is what someone's willing to pay for it.

00:20:11.040 Right.

00:20:11.380 And what we have now is people are looking at houses and cars and they're saying, well,

00:20:14.860 if they're selling it for this price, I'm going to sell it for this price.

00:20:16.940 And then people don't buy it.

00:20:17.980 Right.

00:20:18.580 And you know, so interestingly, at the same time, inventory is low.

00:20:21.620 Yeah.

00:20:21.960 I went to, we went to go look at used car because we have guest transportation and we

00:20:26.700 go to these dealerships and they're like, we have two vehicles available.

00:20:29.080 I'm like, yeah, what?

00:20:30.260 Yeah.

00:20:30.420 We had to go to like five different dealerships until we could find something.

00:20:33.060 We ended up buying one and, uh, I'll, I'll spare the auto manufacturer, but it was a

00:20:37.920 piece of garbage.

00:20:38.560 We lost a ton of money on because it kept breaking and we're struggling to find a vehicle.

00:20:42.920 Prices are through the roof.

00:20:44.140 It's crazy.

00:20:44.820 And, and we're a company that can afford to do this.

00:20:47.060 I don't, I don't understand how, whatever the system is persists as it is.

00:20:52.660 You look at things like Uber with how many people you're not making a living doing Uber.

00:20:56.480 That's right.

00:20:56.920 The cost of wear and tear on your vehicle, you're, you're probably making a couple bucks.

00:21:00.780 I think New York times said it was like a couple bucks an hour after you pay for your

00:21:03.620 gas, you pay for your brakes, your tires and all the damage to your car.

00:21:05.900 And then the, the, the intrinsic value of the car is decreasing because you're driving

00:21:10.120 it too much.

00:21:10.740 Right.

00:21:11.040 But there are people who think this is short-term cash.

00:21:13.520 Right.

00:21:13.980 So all of that, you know, especially with housing markets.

00:21:16.000 Oh man, don't get me started on like Airbnbs and everything.

00:21:18.600 I hope this is not doxing anything.

00:21:20.540 So you can edit this out if it is, if you come to Tim's house, he has a beautiful, uh, 1980s

00:21:26.880 Pontiac Fiero in the driveway.

00:21:28.800 That's my brother.

00:21:30.060 You got to fix that thing up, man.

00:21:32.020 This, this is the, I know it's gorgeous.

00:21:34.480 This is the car in fast and furious that went to space.

00:21:37.960 So please, if I ever come back here, like I will go help your brother in the driveway.

00:21:43.120 We will get that thing running.

00:21:44.400 You can pick me.

00:21:45.020 Oh, they run.

00:21:45.380 I think, I think one is like, he's got two, one's green, one's red and one's perfectly

00:21:49.720 fixed up.

00:21:50.420 Oh my God.

00:21:50.760 That's a great car.

00:21:51.860 But, uh, well, let's, let's, let's do this.

00:21:53.440 Let's, let's, we agree on a lot.

00:21:55.340 Um, let's talk about where the disagreement comes in and how the, the, the concern I suppose

00:22:00.980 is as tensions escalate in this country in, in, in scary ways, many people believe it

00:22:06.360 all started with the first big battle of the culture, whatever you want to call it.

00:22:10.380 You mentioned you were a four-star general is Gamergate.

00:22:13.080 Retired.

00:22:13.720 Retired.

00:22:14.240 Yes.

00:22:14.400 Yeah.

00:22:14.840 Gamergate is really interesting, especially the, the, the differing views on what it was.

00:22:19.720 So we, maybe we'll start with that and we'll quickly move forward.

00:22:22.700 I don't know if anyone, if you wanted to chime in.

00:22:24.680 I've talked too much.

00:22:25.100 Why don't you go, Alex?

00:22:25.940 So God, Gamergate is not something that you can simply, um, you, you can't simply describe

00:22:33.760 it.

00:22:34.080 It's, it's too, um, God, um, amorphous, vague.

00:22:40.100 I would, I would say so.

00:22:41.380 Nebulous.

00:22:41.740 Not, not so much vague.

00:22:43.140 It's just, there are, there are clashing narratives about what it is on, on one side, you've got

00:22:49.200 people that were fighting a, a fight for, uh, better transparency, better ethics in games

00:22:55.140 journalism and the gaming industry as a whole, uh, less nepotism, so on and so forth.

00:22:59.880 And on the other side, you've got people who say, no, this movement is any kind of ethical

00:23:05.360 concerns they have is a smokescreen.

00:23:07.460 And what they're actually about is harassing women and minorities and trying to get them

00:23:11.700 out of the gaming sphere, uh, anti-progressive, uh, if, if you want to call it that.

00:23:16.160 So I've, I've heard those visions of it.

00:23:18.020 Did you have a different, different view?

00:23:19.260 I think, uh, so I think it was very bifurcated, you know, uh, we're friends, I think after

00:23:25.320 10 years, I, I truly believe you ran the Gamergate subreddit, something I had some issues

00:23:30.540 with, but I truly do believe you personally were in it to, um, because of some concerns

00:23:38.340 about journalism.

00:23:39.620 Uh, I know you yourself went to J school and this is your focus.

00:23:44.020 I believe you when you say that, I think the outcome of Gamergate is actually a lot

00:23:49.520 wider.

00:23:50.120 It was the start of how we now argue online and Tim, I want to bring this back to, to

00:23:55.800 you and ask you a really honest question.

00:23:58.660 So with my current job, you know, I work with Cenk Uygur, um, I've gotten to know a lot of

00:24:04.100 people in this space.

00:24:05.360 Destiny, I know you're friends with him.

00:24:07.480 He's great.

00:24:07.980 Really good person.

00:24:09.080 Um, and a commonality that I see as I get to know people in this space is all of us

00:24:17.200 carry a certain level.

00:24:18.680 Um, I think trauma is too strong a word, but you get screamed at all the time by everyone

00:24:25.720 taking the worst possible interpretation of everything you say.

00:24:29.860 And I think it damages every single public figure out there on the right and the left.

00:24:34.780 I had a conversation with Lauren Southern about this a few days ago.

00:24:38.260 Um, you know, this is just, it's a commonality.

00:24:42.120 And I think at its core, Gamergate was the start of this really destructive personal way

00:24:49.100 that we argue online, where if you don't like somebody, you go into their past and you find

00:24:55.640 stuff they've said that you disagree with and you get a mob together and attack, attack,

00:25:00.580 attack, climp chip it, put anything you've set up that's stupid on subreddit and you destroy

00:25:06.000 the person.

00:25:07.480 And that's my core message to you, man.

00:25:09.860 Is look, I, my, I, my hands are covered with blood in this as much as anyone's can be.

00:25:16.600 I've come to the conclusion that this is a war and a tactic that does not do anything,

00:25:22.920 but lead us into misery.

00:25:24.520 And I think if you're serious about the issues we're talking about, I think the only sane

00:25:30.420 thing for people to do that truly care is to get off Twitter and talk about public policy.

00:25:35.820 Just one more thing.

00:25:36.920 If I could go back into time, in time for Gamergate and do something different, I would

00:25:41.240 have deleted my damn account.

00:25:42.900 And I would have taken that moment where Intel was putting up a hundred million dollars to

00:25:47.840 help women in tech initiatives.

00:25:50.240 And I would have spent all that effort behind the damn scenes trying to get game companies

00:25:55.760 to commit to getting over this hiring bias that they do have in the game industry.

00:26:00.940 That would have been a trillion times more constructive.

00:26:05.360 It would have led to actual changes in the game industry.

00:26:08.220 And now as we find the labor conditions in the game industry are an S show, no matter if

00:26:14.460 you're male, female, whatever, like it would have helped set a standard that would benefit

00:26:19.840 everyone today.

00:26:20.760 I did, I got caught up in something that was, I understand why I did it, but it was not productive.

00:26:27.800 And this is what I'm trying to tell people.

00:26:29.940 We've got to focus more on policy and less it's screaming at each other.

00:26:34.860 I agree with the screaming at each other, but, uh, I, I disagree only somewhat on policy.

00:26:39.940 Uh, I think culture matters more than anything politics, politics being downstream from that.

00:26:44.640 Sure.

00:26:44.940 And so when it comes to issues of the internet, you do have, there, there are grifters, grifters

00:26:49.960 exist.

00:26:50.480 They, they exist to generate attention and they put out things that are fundamentally false

00:26:54.820 or mischaracterizations with the intention of generating traffic, making money.

00:26:59.340 It's not just politics though.

00:27:00.760 Right.

00:27:01.160 So I talked about Nick Ocado avocado yesterday.

00:27:03.260 Are you guys, are y'all familiar?

00:27:04.880 I apologize.

00:27:05.840 Nick Ocado avocado was a, a thin man, uh, six years ago who was doing what's called

00:27:11.280 muck bang.

00:27:11.540 Oh, the, the fat video you tweeted.

00:27:13.800 Yeah.

00:27:14.280 Yeah.

00:27:14.620 Uh, and so there's a video that was tweeted out by an account called clown world showing

00:27:18.100 a thin man and woman, and then a fat man and woman for clarification, the woman is not

00:27:21.920 the same person.

00:27:22.640 She's a cyclist.

00:27:23.640 She's fit and exercise and all that stuff.

00:27:25.360 But, uh, this is, this is a similar phenomenon that people embrace something that generates revenue

00:27:31.040 in traffic and then they keep exacerbating it and getting crazier and crazier with it until

00:27:35.700 you have a guy who is morbidly obese riding around on a mobility scooter, but using that.

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00:28:39.040 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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00:28:48.680 that we really care about you.

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00:29:03.560 Did I mention that we care?

00:29:07.940 To generate revenue.

00:29:09.460 So after there were serious concerns about this dude's well-being because he started gaining

00:29:13.940 massive amounts of weight, there was like a conversation saying you need to stop doing

00:29:17.400 this.

00:29:17.960 Right.

00:29:18.200 Instead, he's put out videos of him riding a mobility scooter and smashing his chin and

00:29:21.900 embracing the morbid obesity because it generates my presumption is he is playing into

00:29:26.800 the role that gets him traffic.

00:29:28.040 The shock content.

00:29:28.840 His videos went from hundreds of thousands as a thin man eating food to millions now as

00:29:34.280 two morbid lowbies.

00:29:35.540 And I got to tell you, man, you look at the comments on his latest video.

00:29:39.360 There was that woman.

00:29:40.260 She's she's grunting and making noises as she stirs noodles.

00:29:44.540 And I'm like, this is not this is not content where it's like a food taste test.

00:29:49.740 Right.

00:29:49.960 This is not Gordon Ramsay saying, like, I really like the salting.

00:29:53.180 This is some kind of like a fetishist content where they want to hear the man and woman grunt

00:29:58.600 and groan while they eat food.

00:30:00.120 And then they embrace the the the vice, I suppose.

00:30:04.600 That's just I don't want to just go too much into that.

00:30:06.540 But my point is that happens in every every genre.

00:30:09.780 You name it, every every space, be it gaming, movies, food, cards, politics, people are constantly

00:30:17.740 looking for the next thing that will get them more traffic to embrace, to push and to become.

00:30:23.580 Yeah.

00:30:23.920 So two things here.

00:30:25.340 I think something you and I have in common.

00:30:27.720 I hope this is OK to say I've seen clips of you where you were heavier.

00:30:32.380 I've certainly faced the same thing I put on when I was running for office, 120 pounds.

00:30:38.080 That was very difficult to take off.

00:30:39.880 Right.

00:30:40.860 So I mean, I think it's fair.

00:30:43.240 I think there's a way to talk about issues like weight gain with love and compassion,

00:30:47.380 because I do think it's the best way to live your your best life.

00:30:50.480 You want to be healthy.

00:30:51.700 That said, if someone's destroying themselves, that is, you know, I'm just libertarian enough

00:30:58.360 to believe that that is a choice they can make.

00:31:01.760 What I am far more worried about is I think there's a huge cottage industry.

00:31:07.760 There's exploded since Gamergate on on all sides.

00:31:10.700 I think it's primarily on the right, but we certainly have actors on the left that do

00:31:14.220 this.

00:31:15.260 They essentially produce political pornography.

00:31:18.860 And what I mean by this is they aim directly at their readers' basest instincts and they

00:31:24.660 tell them exactly what they want to hear.

00:31:27.200 And it's very often couched in the politics of just destroying people, you know, treating

00:31:32.920 your enemy is inhuman.

00:31:34.720 And I think this really deeply harms our country.

00:31:39.360 I don't think it's unique to any one side.

00:31:42.320 I think the industry exists on the left and the right.

00:31:44.920 And I think people on the right would say it's the left doing this every day.

00:31:48.860 And people on the left would say it's a problem with the right.

00:31:51.560 When in reality, as CGP Gray described it, he had a video, I don't know if you've seen

00:31:56.040 it called this.

00:31:56.980 What is it called?

00:31:57.400 This video will make you angry or something where he explains that no one, no one in these

00:32:01.460 spaces are talking to each other.

00:32:02.580 They're talking within their group about the other.

00:32:05.560 Right.

00:32:05.980 Which means the only thing you're likely going to hear is the worst thing that your, your,

00:32:11.220 your rival faction has done or rival tribe.

00:32:13.860 And there's very little conversation about the good things or the merits of, of what

00:32:18.000 they're describing.

00:32:18.740 Don't you think you've played a role in that though?

00:32:21.380 In, in, in what way?

00:32:23.520 Well, you, Tim, I haven't watched every video you've ever put out, but, uh, you know, I watched

00:32:28.580 a fair sampling of your, your last week.

00:32:31.140 I, I didn't find, I could not find one credible example of you saying something nice about the

00:32:37.660 left.

00:32:38.140 I think your guests, generally speaking, tilt far to the right.

00:32:41.620 You have a, you're doing an event soon with Donald Trump Jr., you know, um, which is,

00:32:47.600 that's fine that you're right.

00:32:48.660 But I think my message respectfully to you is I, I think you've played a role in this

00:32:53.880 culture war.

00:32:54.760 And I think it's bad for, I think it's very bad for our country.

00:32:57.580 So how do we get Cenk Uygur to come on the show?

00:33:00.000 Just call him.

00:33:00.800 He doesn't, he said no.

00:33:02.020 Did he really?

00:33:02.700 Yeah.

00:33:02.940 And not only that, but he, he lied about me, insulted me and so did Anna.

00:33:07.020 And so we're, we're talking with Anna because she's welcome here.

00:33:09.760 Sure.

00:33:09.920 Uh, Kyle Kalinsky, uh, is a cool dude and he's actually, yeah, I've talked to him for,

00:33:14.940 uh, quite a bit about this stuff.

00:33:16.580 I'm actually a big fan.

00:33:17.620 And he said, yeah, we'll figure it out.

00:33:19.480 I'm not going to drag, uh, anybody for having a show and not canceling their show to come

00:33:24.700 on my show.

00:33:25.100 That's, that's ridiculous.

00:33:25.780 So for, for Jank, Kyle, uh, Hassan Piker, uh, agreed to come on at one point, DM'd me,

00:33:31.720 this was during COVID and said, I just don't think I can travel because there's concerns

00:33:34.440 of COVID.

00:33:34.820 I said, totally fair.

00:33:35.580 Uh, and later went on to say that he won't do my show.

00:33:38.360 Uh, then, uh, uh, Sam Cedar, of course, is the, is the best example of duplicitousness.

00:33:44.900 And I think, I think majority report is the epitome of what you've described.

00:33:48.840 That is not to say that no one on the right does anything similar, but I, I view, uh, the

00:33:53.360 majority report as, as like political WWE.

00:33:57.200 There we go.

00:33:57.920 My favorite show, majority report.

00:33:59.560 Yeah, uh, I think their, their whole game, uh, uh, their, their mission is exactly as

00:34:08.220 you described to take things out of context, manipulate them to, to satiate their, their,

00:34:14.280 their viewers, basis instincts or whatever.

00:34:16.180 So, you know, a couple of examples is I was critical of David Pakman and then apologized

00:34:20.600 for this because I said, wow, he's got so many videos about Trump.

00:34:23.460 And then I was like, oh, I mean, we do too, right?

00:34:25.720 We should, we should reflect on that.

00:34:26.800 We're both talking about high level politics.

00:34:28.840 I can respect that.

00:34:29.440 I've known David for a decade or longer than that.

00:34:31.540 Uh, you look at Sam Cedar and his majority report, their videos are all about people.

00:34:36.140 It's about Dave Rubin.

00:34:37.880 It's about me.

00:34:38.780 It's not, it's not about high.

00:34:40.360 It's not about high level politics or policy.

00:34:42.320 It is the basis of social conflict and, and, and complaints.

00:34:47.920 The example that I often give, which exemplifies this is we put out a song, totally apolitical

00:34:52.720 song, hit the billboard charts, did really well.

00:34:54.960 Carter actually over here produced it.

00:34:56.260 And when they played it on their show, they played it in such a way.

00:35:00.360 I don't understand.

00:35:01.660 I don't agree with what you're about to say, but please proceed.

00:35:04.180 Right.

00:35:04.440 So if you listen to it, they, they played in such a way that the quality was dramatically

00:35:09.460 reduced.

00:35:10.020 And then they said it sounded like Nickelback two things.

00:35:13.480 Yes.

00:35:13.960 Sure.

00:35:14.200 If you played it low quality and say, it sounds bad, it sounds bad, but the song's actually

00:35:17.500 masterfully done.

00:35:18.460 They say it sounds like Nickelback.

00:35:19.820 Well, that's, that's nonsense.

00:35:21.660 The genre of the song we produce is closer to emo and not, not, uh, you know, modern rock.

00:35:27.260 They're saying things with the goal of riling up their base to generate revenue.

00:35:30.960 Okay.

00:35:31.180 So first of all, I have been a majority, like Sam's my dude.

00:35:35.640 I have watched majority reports since the Bush administration.

00:35:38.900 He kept me sane.

00:35:39.840 I was living in Mississippi during the Bush administration and the only voice saying anything

00:35:45.020 sane about the Iraq war, which you agreed with back then.

00:35:48.660 I do believe the Iraq war, uh, agreed, uh, with not supporting like the Bush administration

00:35:53.540 being terrible.

00:35:54.320 I'm still opposed to most intervention.

00:35:56.400 I'm so horrified by that was Sam Seder and frankly, Cenk Uygur.

00:36:00.520 Right.

00:36:01.180 So, um, what, what I think you get wrong about majority report is they do a, you know, roughly

00:36:08.380 a two and a half hour show every single day.

00:36:10.540 The first hour of it, I, you know, it is bringing in inflate experts on inflation and

00:36:16.200 housing and professors and it is, it is honestly the smartest hour of any show that exists.

00:36:24.660 Like, this is why I subscribe.

00:36:26.640 I'm, I'm very proud to help support the show financially.

00:36:29.920 I agree that the fun half is, you know, it's, it's the, it's the epitome of what you've

00:36:36.300 described as what's choking us out.

00:36:37.540 I don't think it always is.

00:36:38.820 I think it's going, it's sketches with comedians.

00:36:41.420 I think they bring on people like a dig me, Heather pardon, who you should definitely invite

00:36:46.140 on the show, uh, Andy Kimmler.

00:36:48.440 I do think they go after Dave Rubin and I'm not gonna lie, I'm not above enjoying the

00:36:53.940 segments and I have laughed my ass off when they've gone after you, but I just, I think

00:36:59.820 that it is, I, I think it is done in a smart way and I think it's, I don't think it's political

00:37:07.300 pornography.

00:37:07.760 What we don't do is, you know, uh, I very, very few people, uh, I would insult, you know,

00:37:15.520 it typically is reserved for people in Congress and corporations, uh, people who are doing

00:37:21.140 things that are egregious and evil, but like, uh, Cenk Uygur, you know what I try to do?

00:37:25.460 I try to, uh, I ignore most of his opinions.

00:37:27.720 I disagree with on, on, on X slash Twitter, cause there's no point in me just like quoting

00:37:32.080 him or something.

00:37:32.580 But when we agree, I'll quote him, it's fascinating.

00:37:35.600 Uh, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll bring them, uh, we'll, the young Turks is a good example of

00:37:40.520 this.

00:37:41.040 Uh, I made a video in agreement with Hassan Piker and I went through a whole bunch of issues

00:37:45.740 in which he was right about, uh, he was talking about Mr. Beast and then Hassan responded,

00:37:49.880 insulting me and mocking me.

00:37:51.600 Uh, I made a video where I looked over five different studies that talked about something

00:37:55.640 called attract, attractiveness privilege and it's, uh, conservatives tend to be more attractive

00:38:01.720 than liberals.

00:38:02.560 And the reason being, if you grow up attractive, things are easier for you.

00:38:07.280 You tend to then associate the success you've had with you being good at something.

00:38:12.460 Right.

00:38:12.680 And so it's often overlooked that if you look like Brad Pitt, you're going to more doors

00:38:16.380 doors open for you.

00:38:17.260 Sure.

00:38:17.480 This results in conservatives being more independent, small government minded.

00:38:21.480 And then it's partly due to attraction, attractiveness for liberals.

00:38:25.260 They tend to be on the, on the lower scale, uh, the, the backend of attraction.

00:38:29.060 This is the multiple studies.

00:38:30.320 It was a Washington post article that talked about this and because they faced barriers

00:38:34.600 due to appearance and things like that, they tend to favor more collectivist policies.

00:38:38.020 The response from the young Turks was to call me ugly, post pictures of me and insult

00:38:41.080 me, even though I was right.

00:38:42.580 And then in the conclusion of their segment, they said he is right.

00:38:45.380 The studies do say this, but he's ugly anyway.

00:38:47.280 What was the point of that?

00:38:48.460 I didn't see the segment.

00:38:49.900 So I can't speak to the veracity.

00:38:51.440 I'm not going to insult Anna's looks or anything like that.

00:38:53.220 It's not a way I would behave in my public life.

00:38:55.520 Um, I, I do want to, so two things and I want to come back to Sam and the majority report.

00:38:59.760 What I find really frustrating about Jenks, uh, public reputation is I've worked with Jenk

00:39:07.280 for five years now.

00:39:09.140 Jenk is the most, he is literally the best boss I've ever had in the sense that he listens

00:39:16.980 to problems.

00:39:18.100 He raises millions for the Democrats, gets no credit for it whatsoever.

00:39:23.200 He's always trying to do constructive things for the party and back channel.

00:39:28.520 There's no person I've ever worked with ever in any industry that hires as many strong women

00:39:35.560 to surround himself with and truly listens to them and respects them.

00:39:41.860 And just is, even as a friend is always there if you've had a bad day to listen to them.

00:39:48.340 Um, and it's just mind boggling to me because the, the reputation of Jenk is this like, you

00:39:53.860 know, jackass, frankly, it's just not the guy I work with at all.

00:39:59.320 And, you know, so I think that, I think that you're wrong about Jenk.

00:40:04.660 And I think if you look directly at the totality of his work, I think you would see he's someone

00:40:09.820 that is truly trying to build.

00:40:11.120 What am I wrong about though?

00:40:12.180 I think you think he's just someone who's trying to go after you individually.

00:40:16.340 No, I think he's, he's, uh, as you described the culture war, somebody who is saying what

00:40:22.180 needs to be said because it generates revenue.

00:40:24.280 And I'll give you another example.

00:40:26.240 Uh, something called the alternative influencer report came out.

00:40:29.440 Uh, this was back in, I think like 2018.

00:40:31.580 It was essentially a fictitious document that had a bunch of nodes like the, you know, the

00:40:36.820 conspiracy theory things where people tie ribbons to each other in this, for instance,

00:40:41.120 they said that, uh, Chris Reagan, game content creator, uh, today, rather apolitical was directly

00:40:48.560 linked to Richard Spencer.

00:40:50.000 Okay.

00:40:50.500 They drew a line directly between a guy who talks about video games and quite literally

00:40:55.080 the most prominent white nationalists at the time, right smack dab in the middle of

00:40:59.100 it was me connected to everybody.

00:41:01.000 And they connected me to people I'd never met before.

00:41:03.180 They connected me to people like Steven Molyneux.

00:41:04.900 I'd never even spoken a word to or spoken about.

00:41:06.760 And so when this report comes out, instantly gets picked up by a whole bunch of mainstream

00:41:11.260 corporate publications.

00:41:12.960 It's absurdly false in its premise.

00:41:17.080 The young Turks produced a segment where they used an image with my name right in the middle

00:41:22.000 about the influencer network of the far right or whatever.

00:41:25.680 Me actually knowing Anna and Jack, having been on their show several times, DMing with

00:41:29.660 them.

00:41:30.140 The last time I saw Jack Uger, uh, he walked up to me, we shook hands.

00:41:33.140 How's it been?

00:41:33.800 How has it been going?

00:41:34.960 Everything good.

00:41:36.280 I met Politicon and I see Jack standing in a hallway and I walk up.

00:41:40.400 I was like, Hey, how's it going, man?

00:41:41.240 And he's like, Hey, and I was like, I sent you a message about that video you produce

00:41:44.780 where you put, you know, you put me in this thing about like Richard Spencer or whatever.

00:41:48.320 And I was like, I just, you never responded.

00:41:50.500 So what does Jack do?

00:41:52.520 Starts screaming in my face at the top of his lungs.

00:41:54.800 It's filmed by multiple film crews.

00:41:56.620 And I just went, why are you yelling at me?

00:41:58.220 And then he started screaming about Donald Trump and about the right.

00:42:02.260 And I can't remember exactly what was said.

00:42:04.200 And then he stormed off, went in a room where I was told I wasn't allowed to go in.

00:42:06.800 Wow.

00:42:07.100 And that was the last physical interaction I've had with the man.

00:42:10.320 And since then we've only ever invited the likes of all of these left prominent left

00:42:16.060 personalities.

00:42:16.700 They won't come on the show.

00:42:17.660 Sure.

00:42:17.900 They don't want to engage in these conversations, but they absolutely love to take things I've

00:42:24.220 said out of context or just make videos insulting me.

00:42:27.180 Sure.

00:42:27.360 So I'm not going to speak for anybody on the right, but I can tell you, I agree with you

00:42:32.140 about the culture war.

00:42:33.380 And I see you've got people like Ben Shapiro who you can say he's wrong for days, but he

00:42:41.080 doesn't do this, these, these things either.

00:42:42.700 Yeah.

00:42:43.020 He said he sat down with that and she agreed to sit down with him.

00:42:45.200 It was a great interview.

00:42:46.220 And he tries to have these conversations.

00:42:48.540 The Young Turks don't do it.

00:42:49.600 Hassan Piker won't do it.

00:42:51.080 Well, Young Turks is not the same as Hassan.

00:42:54.180 He's his own man.

00:42:55.280 Sam Seder sets us up for drama and W.A.D.

00:42:59.520 I think you're completely wrong about that.

00:43:01.460 I published the DMs.

00:43:02.900 I read it.

00:43:03.660 Oh, I'm embarrassed to say how many times I've read it.

00:43:05.900 And he agreed to come on the show.

00:43:07.520 Yeah.

00:43:07.740 He agreed to us covering travel and accommodations.

00:43:09.720 He gave us a date.

00:43:10.460 Y'all had a breakdown in communication, Tim.

00:43:12.280 Sure, sure.

00:43:12.840 I swear to God.

00:43:13.720 Hold on.

00:43:14.080 So then he made a bunch of videos about it.

00:43:16.060 Yeah.

00:43:16.500 Lying.

00:43:17.160 Yeah.

00:43:17.520 And then we just carried on and said nothing.

00:43:19.880 Is there a Bible around here?

00:43:21.500 I will put my hand on the Bible and swear to Christ Almighty that I have read those DMs

00:43:27.560 at least 10 times.

00:43:29.160 And it is my honest interpretation.

00:43:31.820 Y'all, he's not lying at all.

00:43:35.000 He is open.

00:43:36.140 He is honest.

00:43:37.120 And he has reached out.

00:43:37.780 Hold on.

00:43:38.160 Hold on.

00:43:38.340 Why did he make rage bait content with it?

00:43:40.420 He has reached out to you a thousand times after that and is willing to come on your show.

00:43:44.820 Why make multiple rage bait videos?

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00:44:46.480 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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00:45:12.140 Did I mention that we care?

00:45:16.080 I'm not going to entertain that.

00:45:17.840 If when Hassan told me publicly on Twitter, he would come on the show and then the same

00:45:23.200 exact tweet that I put out saying we try to get people on the left to come on the show

00:45:25.760 and talk to us.

00:45:26.740 Hassan said, I'm game or something that affect.

00:45:28.380 I DM'd him.

00:45:28.980 He said, let's figure it out.

00:45:29.820 He then responded and said, I'm actually concerned about traveling around due to COVID.

00:45:33.100 And I said, no worries, man.

00:45:34.340 I really appreciate you reaching out.

00:45:35.680 Sam decided to turn it into rage bait content and persist in his endeavor to use this.

00:45:41.820 It just seems to me if I can be here today and be sitting down with one of the Gamergate

00:45:46.300 mods, someone, you know, like I know you did not do this, but the Gamergate movement sent

00:45:51.200 me quite a lot of death threats, rape threats, made my life terrible, hacked my bank account.

00:45:56.020 You know, really, really, really disrupted my life.

00:46:00.920 If I can let that go and there was a Washington Post article about me trying to forgive Gamergaters

00:46:07.300 and move forward, like maybe you should like, you're clearly, I'm not saying you're wrong

00:46:12.960 to be upset about these things.

00:46:14.380 And I truly understand.

00:46:15.920 I've been the target of those kinds of shows as well.

00:46:18.960 But, you know, the truth is we've got to find a way to live together in this country

00:46:23.700 and move forward.

00:46:24.600 So I think, I genuinely think maybe have your producer, Lisa, she's a lovely person.

00:46:31.600 Talk to Sam, set some ground rules, leave personal stuff out of it.

00:46:35.860 Just, just talk to him like an adult.

00:46:37.540 Let that go.

00:46:38.160 I have let, they sent me letters, dude, talking about cutting my skin off my body and boiling

00:46:45.720 it and feeding it to me.

00:46:47.120 And we've been swatted 15 times.

00:46:48.900 We had the bomb squad sent out here.

00:46:50.660 Horrible.

00:46:51.040 It's terrible.

00:46:51.620 We are public figures, right?

00:46:54.980 And if we can't move forward, I just don't know where we are as a country.

00:46:59.280 Well, we can move forward, right?

00:47:00.420 So despite the things say like Anna said about me or actually to be fair, I'm not, I think

00:47:07.040 it may have been Anna and Nando Villa, which is really funny because I know Nando as well

00:47:11.280 and I have no beef with them and I'm just confused as to why they're making a video insulting

00:47:15.180 me because I was reading a Washington Post article that was deemed true by them.

00:47:20.280 Cenk screamed in my face in a shocking way that I was, I was confused.

00:47:25.560 I had the BBC come to me and said, what just happened?

00:47:27.500 And they, they, they interviewed me about it.

00:47:28.960 I was like, I have no idea.

00:47:30.180 But, but the thing with Sam Cedar, if you look at like the, the Ethan Klein, Stephen

00:47:36.420 Crowder bit, it's just, it's a clown show and you can, you, I understand that they talk

00:47:43.420 policy and they talk about these things, but you can't come in here and be like the fact

00:47:47.800 that people are doing these things and making a spectacle and, uh, you know, having each

00:47:52.080 other at their throats.

00:47:52.880 We can't do things like that.

00:47:54.040 It's like, well, Sam Cedar is the epitome of that.

00:47:55.560 I can criticize a lot of people on the right who do similar things, but Sam is the, it's,

00:48:01.400 it's, it's in, it masquerades as fact content, which it has a decent amount of.

00:48:06.420 That's fine.

00:48:07.000 But it is WWE.

00:48:09.000 It is, you know, when they, when, when, when they come in here, they intentionally look

00:48:13.320 at Emma, right?

00:48:14.120 What did she say when she came in here?

00:48:15.560 Why do you think your show influenced and influences neo-Nazis to get mass mass murders

00:48:19.780 or something like that, which is an outright fabrication and a manipulation.

00:48:23.540 And then you called her a pedophile after the show.

00:48:26.840 Well, uh, that's in response to her saying that there should be books explaining scat

00:48:30.720 and sexual activities to minors.

00:48:33.000 When we discussed a teacher who was actually, uh, had the police called on her because she

00:48:37.460 was talking to 10 year olds about how to use Grindr.

00:48:39.420 And Emma said that she supports that.

00:48:41.780 I said, the only assumption we can make if someone wants children to learn how to use

00:48:45.920 Grindr is that they're there.

00:48:47.240 They have proclivities towards children.

00:48:48.600 Okay.

00:48:48.900 Okay.

00:48:49.700 I hear you, man.

00:48:50.880 I genuinely hear you.

00:48:52.400 What I think I would like to propose is, you know, I can't speak for Cenk, but I bet,

00:48:58.740 I, I think there's a good chance if you talk to him, he would consider coming on the show

00:49:03.300 today.

00:49:03.880 He, he's, look, if he's busy and he hosts his own show, I'm not going to, I'm not going

00:49:07.280 to, that, that, that's why I don't go on Twitter.

00:49:09.360 I'm like, ah, Cenk's avoiding.

00:49:10.340 No, it's ridiculous.

00:49:11.040 Like the dude's probably busier than I am.

00:49:12.700 So who are you willing to put like past grievances aside with?

00:49:16.820 Like you agree.

00:49:17.240 Oh, quite literally.

00:49:17.800 Yeah.

00:49:17.980 Well, I have no, I have no, I have no Sam, not Cenk.

00:49:21.280 Cenk's a welcome to the show.

00:49:22.060 Anytime we, we invite him incessantly.

00:49:23.740 We, I DM him.

00:49:24.640 I'm like, bro, we want you on the show.

00:49:25.960 So it's just the majority report.

00:49:27.880 And, and it's not, it's not personal.

00:49:29.560 It's, it's more like, uh, you know, if, if, if, if I'm engaging, if I'm going to play

00:49:34.820 basketball and someone asks me to come and play basketball, I am not going to go play on

00:49:39.100 the Washington generals or the Harlem Globetrotters.

00:49:40.720 That's not actually playing the game.

00:49:41.740 Now, if you want to put on a show where the generals slip fumble, and then there's like,

00:49:46.660 it's entertaining for people as the guy spins the ball on his finger.

00:49:48.940 Sure.

00:49:49.300 That's what people are into.

00:49:50.280 They're allowed to be into it.

00:49:51.160 Sure.

00:49:51.660 The majority report is more like WWE.

00:49:54.880 The young Turks is more.

00:49:56.740 It is the smartest hour on, in the leftist universe.

00:50:00.820 Sam, Sam has, you know, look, this is, it's not even my personal opinion.

00:50:05.440 Sure.

00:50:06.000 Everyone in the industry, including Sam knows he's blacklisted for this.

00:50:08.860 Who, who has blacklisted him?

00:50:10.600 Sam, Sam Cedar is blacklisted.

00:50:12.080 No, who in the right wing ecosphere has.

00:50:14.100 Right wing?

00:50:14.580 No, I'm talking about mainstream.

00:50:16.060 I'm talking about corporate platforms.

00:50:18.480 Because you've made this allegation multiple times.

00:50:20.640 I would like to know who.

00:50:22.240 So I am, I'm not going to bring up Sam's personal beefs with other shows, but Sam has

00:50:28.240 talked about it on his own show.

00:50:29.380 Sure.

00:50:29.600 He knows, and it is not my place to come say, hey, this person has explicitly said these

00:50:37.260 things for a variety of reasons.

00:50:40.160 I am not going to get involved in the WWE of Sam's theater.

00:50:45.300 I'm going to explain my position, but by all means, by all means, when Emma was on the

00:50:48.480 show, she outright admitted, they know exactly what I'm talking about.

00:50:51.660 I didn't get that impression, but she said, yes.

00:50:55.520 I said, I asked her, you know, that Sam's blacklisted from various shows.

00:50:58.820 And she said, of course.

00:51:00.120 And it's because they're scared to debate Sam or whatever her opinion was.

00:51:03.600 Right.

00:51:03.880 And that's fine.

00:51:04.280 You can believe he's, he's, he's blacklisted for whatever reason.

00:51:06.400 But I can tell you explicitly, some of the biggest podcasts in the political space have

00:51:11.100 outright said that the dude, Sam will have like, I'll use this example as the perfect

00:51:17.500 example.

00:51:18.080 When Emma in the middle of conversation abruptly said, why do you think your show inspired

00:51:22.740 a neo-Nazi mass shooter?

00:51:24.620 That thing right there is why people be like, scratch this guy's name off the books.

00:51:29.080 He's not welcome on this show.

00:51:30.080 Okay.

00:51:30.680 Because that was, what she did was a lie intended to generate shock content, WWE garbage.

00:51:37.340 As, as a matter, so I don't agree with her assessment to be clear, but the factual basement

00:51:43.320 of what she was talking about is there was a mass shooter, as I understand, correct me

00:51:47.600 if I'm wrong here.

00:51:48.800 And they were found to be a really big fan of your show.

00:51:52.480 That's a lie.

00:51:53.020 That is not true.

00:51:53.760 That is not true.

00:51:55.260 Okay.

00:51:55.940 And so why bring that up without doing any, it's shock WWE content.

00:51:59.180 But I'll tell you exactly what it was.

00:52:00.640 Uh, the guy in Texas had four screenshots of one episode where one guest had said a

00:52:07.700 specific thing.

00:52:08.540 The screenshot in question was quoting a specific thing said by one time, a guest to then come

00:52:13.800 out and say that your show did this thing when this individual simply posted four screenshots

00:52:18.940 of one guy is exactly the issue with the majority report, the disingenuous WWE style

00:52:25.460 shotgun.

00:52:26.040 It is so good.

00:52:26.920 It's such a good show, man.

00:52:28.400 I feel like if you're someone who watches, say, I'll give you another example, uh, and

00:52:33.020 I'll, I'll throw some, uh, critique at David Pakman.

00:52:36.660 Uh, Chuck Todd had, uh, um, who did he have on, uh, uh, Ted Cruz.

00:52:42.040 And this is a couple of years ago.

00:52:43.440 He asked Ted Cruz, do you think Ukraine interfered in the U S elections?

00:52:48.540 And Ted Cruz's response was Politico and the New York times reported that a producer then

00:52:55.640 starts laughing and can be heard being picked up in the audio on NBC.

00:53:00.100 David Pakman gleefully just laughs along with it.

00:53:04.100 The, that right there, if you are someone who watches that content uncritically, you are

00:53:10.080 grossly misinformed.

00:53:11.200 And if you're watching things like that, like someone grossly misinformed, uh, you may be

00:53:15.900 misinformed in certain areas, but I'm not, I'm not based on our conversation.

00:53:19.180 I'm not here to accuse you of, of knowing or not knowing I'm saying if you're watching

00:53:22.500 the majority report and, uh, uh, they run a segment where they're being disingenuous.

00:53:28.200 I don't watch the majority report, but an example being Emma, they did a segment about

00:53:32.620 her saying, why did your show inspire this person?

00:53:34.660 Right.

00:53:34.900 Well, that's lying to people and manipulating the space.

00:53:37.720 And if you're trying to convince people that because one crazy person posted four screenshots

00:53:44.000 that my show had anything to do with that, these are the people who are making the culture

00:53:48.700 war worse and fanning the flames of violence.

00:53:51.540 I don't think that's true.

00:53:52.880 I I've never heard majority reports say anything.

00:53:55.980 No, it's stochastic terrorism.

00:53:56.920 Hold on.

00:53:57.400 Let me have my say.

00:53:59.120 This is important in your listeners to serve a response to this.

00:54:02.120 I've never heard the majority report say anything that I thought would be like supporting violence.

00:54:09.100 No, it's stochastic.

00:54:10.000 I have seen your show like promote some things like you yourself have said civil war, civil

00:54:17.440 war, civil war.

00:54:18.400 There's a civil war coming.

00:54:19.500 We're in the middle of a civil war.

00:54:21.180 So think if there's anyone in this situation that is advocating violence and stochastic terrorism,

00:54:27.300 I think respectfully, you would be the party, I think, would have done that much more than

00:54:31.940 majority.

00:54:32.260 So me, for instance, quoting a news article is is inciting violence.

00:54:37.480 I think you're saying I think that you this is my issue with and this is I can come here

00:54:44.300 today to adjudicate the beef between you and Sam.

00:54:46.940 This is what I wanted to say to you, Tim.

00:54:48.980 I understand that you are going to vote for Donald Trump in 2024, that you're right.

00:54:56.200 I wholly support that.

00:54:57.560 I respect you for it.

00:54:58.460 Right.

00:54:58.680 You thought your way into the position.

00:55:00.160 That's democracy.

00:55:01.080 We've got to work our butts off and beat you at the ballot box.

00:55:04.100 I don't worry about losing an election to your audience as much as I worry about you convincing

00:55:12.960 your audience that the Justice Department is crooked and the FBI is crooked and the local

00:55:17.920 police department is crooked and the elections are crooked and that there's no point to believing

00:55:23.080 in American democracy.

00:55:24.620 Why have I ever said any of those things?

00:55:25.920 I think you got to slow down there.

00:55:27.480 I think directionally speaking, this is the message of your show.

00:55:30.300 So let's go let's go back to elections are crooked.

00:55:32.840 Yeah, that's probably a technicality in which I've said elections.

00:55:37.420 Yeah, sure.

00:55:38.020 Let's explain.

00:55:38.720 Elections have never been this.

00:55:40.100 Two guys stand up, say I have position.

00:55:41.660 I have position B and then everyone smiles and shakes hands.

00:55:43.800 Elections have always been dirty politics, ads that take quotes out of context.

00:55:48.560 But I've never said that the elections are unwinnable or that there's no point.

00:55:52.860 In fact, I said quite the opposite.

00:55:54.260 Since Donald Trump lost to Joe Biden, I have even argued to Steve Bannon's face.

00:55:58.060 He is wrong about how Donald Trump lost.

00:56:00.780 Donald Trump lost because people voted against him.

00:56:03.220 And there are people who think Joe Biden could not have gotten those votes.

00:56:06.400 And I'm like, he didn't get those votes.

00:56:08.220 They were anti Donald Trump votes.

00:56:10.320 This is what everything the media had said up and up until the 2020 election is that

00:56:14.260 the famous article, I think it was Atlantic, stay alive, Joe Biden.

00:56:17.780 We just need your corporeal form.

00:56:19.400 OK, so just let's do this one at a time.

00:56:21.540 Your audience deserves this.

00:56:22.860 So it's your statement today.

00:56:25.240 You believe Joe Biden won 2020 fair like it was a free and fair election.

00:56:31.140 You were on record saying that there's a there's a lot to break down on what you mean by free

00:56:34.240 and fair, but I believe that Joe Biden got more votes than Donald Trump direction.

00:56:38.040 Joe Biden got more votes than Donald Trump.

00:56:39.980 And then there is the nuance of policy procedure.

00:56:42.820 And what people would argue is free and fair is that is what that question?

00:56:47.000 What's not a question is, I do not believe China mass printed votes or that Dominion was

00:56:50.820 flipping things or any of that stuff.

00:56:52.520 What matters is that through a through a overwhelmingly legal strategy and process, Democrats ran a

00:57:00.800 an election strategy which resulted in Joe Biden beating Donald Trump.

00:57:03.900 OK, can you delineate that a little bit more?

00:57:06.780 What specifically do you mean?

00:57:08.300 So they an article is published in Time magazine called the shadow campaign to save the election.

00:57:12.480 Are you familiar with it?

00:57:13.240 No, let's pull this one up.

00:57:14.760 This one breaks down exactly what the more moderate Trump supporters believe is cheating or

00:57:20.480 what they would say is rigged.

00:57:21.900 Obviously, you have the more egregious Dominion doing these things is nonsense.

00:57:26.900 In this article that came out.

00:57:29.060 Wait, wait.

00:57:29.680 Obviously, you have the more egregious Dominion doing things.

00:57:33.380 Right.

00:57:33.600 You have you have conspiracy theorists saying that Chinese ballots were made or something

00:57:38.660 like that.

00:57:38.860 Which is bullshit.

00:57:39.460 Right.

00:57:39.700 It's nonsense.

00:57:40.340 Yeah.

00:57:40.440 Completely under nonsense.

00:57:41.040 And it actually distracts from the actual issues conservatives and Republicans would

00:57:45.020 have to address if they want to win, which is Democrats masterfully played policy and

00:57:50.620 procedure to the extent that they could, resulting in victories.

00:57:54.500 I got bad news for you, man.

00:57:56.240 Every single modern presidential election has a team.

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00:58:57.220 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:59:02.260 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell

00:59:06.860 our clients that we really care about you.

00:59:11.280 Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs.

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00:59:23.160 Did I mention that we care?

00:59:24.580 That looks at the legal strategy.

00:59:29.420 Exactly.

00:59:29.600 And that's why I said, I completely agree.

00:59:32.220 Do you remember Bush winning in 2020?

00:59:33.940 Right.

00:59:34.220 And that's exactly why I said no election has ever been two people standing up saying,

00:59:38.460 here are my beliefs.

00:59:39.000 And then people just shake hands and agree.

00:59:40.280 How is this a bad thing?

00:59:41.680 You have jurisprudence.

00:59:43.120 You have people working through the legal, hold on, working through the legal department

00:59:48.300 in every single state and in coming to this.

00:59:51.980 Now, I think if you want to go back to 2000 and look at like the Miami-Dame County and

00:59:56.280 some of the ways Bush won in 2000, I think there was some really like Katherine Harris and

01:00:02.240 all of that.

01:00:02.560 We're going to agree with it.

01:00:03.060 And OK, yeah, so but this is the legal process.

01:00:07.480 Agreed.

01:00:07.780 Playing out.

01:00:08.520 And the Democrats played it masterfully.

01:00:09.980 But the Republicans, everyone does this.

01:00:12.400 This is just election.

01:00:13.780 And the Trump team did it poorly.

01:00:15.560 And so he lives because he's incompetent.

01:00:18.220 Among among many things, the people around him that he hired were were abysmal.

01:00:22.180 But in this this article, for instance, this this gets to the core of what we mean by free

01:00:26.460 and fair elections.

01:00:27.440 The average person you probably ask who is a Trump supporter is probably not going to

01:00:32.600 say the election was stolen because China did X or Venezuela or Germany or whatever.

01:00:37.620 Right.

01:00:38.060 What they're going to say is here you go.

01:00:40.380 An article about which includes Facebook putting in half a billion dollars in funding to influence

01:00:45.620 policy executives of states changing voting law without approval of state legislature.

01:00:50.880 These are things that Republicans say, hey, you're playing dirty.

01:00:53.740 Hold on.

01:00:54.040 Say that last part again.

01:00:55.520 So one of the issues that was this is Texas v.

01:00:58.400 Pennsylvania, that the judiciary or the executive of various states changed election law without

01:01:06.620 the approval of a legislature.

01:01:08.080 The Constitution, if that's the process, it's not the Constitution.

01:01:12.100 The Constitution says that the state legislatures have final say on how elections are conducted.

01:01:16.640 But through judicial rulings, certain things end up getting changed.

01:01:20.120 That's jurisprudence, man.

01:01:21.600 I'm not saying I'm not saying they're wrong to have done it.

01:01:23.720 I'm saying Republicans will argue that's playing dirty.

01:01:26.980 My response is you lost.

01:01:28.960 Trump lost.

01:01:30.080 But don't you guys could have done the exact same thing?

01:01:32.140 Don't you think that that's deliberately confusing the issue for your for your audience?

01:01:37.380 What breaking down and explaining how the elections were?

01:01:39.420 I think if you're I think they're you know, it's the way like we're not disagreeing at all.

01:01:43.900 You're acting like we are.

01:01:45.580 Well, I think we are.

01:01:47.060 Or at least this is my disagreement with you.

01:01:49.660 I think there are ways to talk about like here's one.

01:01:53.340 An issue I really care a lot about is cybersecurity and elections.

01:01:58.260 This is huge.

01:01:59.140 This is something I care a ton about.

01:02:01.480 You know, we have ways that like 50 states, a ton of territories, individual counties in

01:02:06.060 every single state, different voting systems, different operating systems, different voting

01:02:10.020 machines, proprietary code that the public can't open source should flatly be illegal.

01:02:16.160 Agreed.

01:02:17.380 Like this is a huge issue.

01:02:19.880 There's a way to talk about that calmly and rationally that doesn't mislead the American

01:02:25.900 people into thinking that, you know, say China has hacked into our machines.

01:02:31.120 I despise that and altered the results.

01:02:34.720 Because I think my critique of your show respectfully would be I think there's a sleight of hand that

01:02:41.880 leads your audience to frequently believe that our Justice Department is broken, that our

01:02:47.280 elections are broken.

01:02:48.180 When did the Justice Department get fixed?

01:02:50.420 The Justice Department is an imperfect thing that has many successes but is in failures as

01:02:58.920 well.

01:02:59.500 Hold on, hold on.

01:03:00.280 This is important.

01:03:00.920 So in the middle of Gamergate, I worked directly with the Eric Holder Justice Department trying

01:03:06.580 to get some of the highest profile death threats on my life.

01:03:10.700 Prosecutors, plainly illegal, had multiple calls with the White House about this.

01:03:14.860 The Justice Department personally failed me.

01:03:17.140 So I've got my own beefs here.

01:03:20.360 But I think directionally, if you look at who works at the Justice Department, it tends

01:03:26.440 to be career prosecutors that are not partisan, that are there trying to do the best they can.

01:03:32.780 And I do believe, like I think Sean would agree with me, our mutual friend Sean, actual

01:03:37.460 justice warrior, that the United States does have directionally one of the better justice

01:03:42.560 systems in the entire world.

01:03:44.080 I completely agree with that.

01:03:45.340 Yeah.

01:03:45.500 But that doesn't mean the DOJ is not broken.

01:03:49.480 I mean-

01:03:49.820 What is broken?

01:03:50.860 Well, let's talk about, I don't know, like Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X.

01:03:53.880 Let's go back in time and talk about, you know, you got that really great meme about

01:03:58.080 the CIA, which I also think very much applies to the FBI, that we know they've done crooked

01:04:02.280 things in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s.

01:04:05.020 Yeah.

01:04:05.220 There's been no serious reforms, but don't worry, everything's okay now.

01:04:07.900 Yeah.

01:04:07.920 We've-

01:04:08.300 Nonsense.

01:04:09.320 Nicaragua, Chile, like-

01:04:10.760 Oh, the list goes on.

01:04:11.520 Absolutely.

01:04:12.140 Yeah, the whole, it's very much busted.

01:04:14.360 There's no one in this room, I think today, that would not strongly argue that the United

01:04:18.840 States has not made immense foreign policy missteps.

01:04:22.560 Right.

01:04:22.700 But I think directionally, if you look at the work of the Justice Department,

01:04:28.080 I do think these are honest professionals trying to do the best, and just one more thing

01:04:32.680 on this, this is a complaint I have about the left too, because something I deal with

01:04:38.520 so often is people that just believe automatically, like every police officer is corrupt or crooked

01:04:46.100 and we just need to be, like they're all evil.

01:04:49.660 And I think about my conservative friend, Connor, counterpoints on Twitter, y'all should follow

01:04:54.560 him.

01:04:54.780 Yeah, he was telling me the other day about how when he was a cop, he got paid $40,000

01:04:59.380 a year to wrestle crackheads to the ground every other day.

01:05:02.640 It's a terrible job.

01:05:04.340 So I think that, I wish that we could reframe the ways that we talk about these issues as

01:05:11.140 constructive instead of destructive.

01:05:13.860 I think destructive is talking about the Justice Department as if it's crooked, it's in the

01:05:18.240 bag against Trump.

01:05:19.400 I think constructive is to look at the situations like Martin Luther King to talk about reforming

01:05:25.440 it within the system and make sure those excesses do not happen again.

01:05:28.680 We'll wrap up the election point.

01:05:31.600 And there has never been a point in which I have advocated for or even defended in any

01:05:38.400 way.

01:05:38.600 In fact, I've become triggered in the people trying to maintain these absurd narratives to

01:05:44.920 the point of anger when they would say things like the real inauguration date is March 11th

01:05:50.380 and then it doesn't happen.

01:05:52.000 And then the most annoying thing about the whole fraud narrative is that Trump comes out

01:05:55.440 right after the election saying it was stolen from me, convincing his voters not to vote

01:05:58.940 in Georgia.

01:05:59.480 And then you end up with Warnock winning.

01:06:01.620 I'm so glad to hear you say this.

01:06:03.420 Thank you, too.

01:06:03.520 But this has always been my position.

01:06:05.260 And so this is the frustrating thing about political commentary on the left, nonprofit

01:06:08.960 organizations that profit off of lying about what my position is.

01:06:12.560 We have Steve Bannon in in this room sitting down and I passed a picture of him on the

01:06:16.960 way.

01:06:17.200 That's right.

01:06:17.580 Yeah.

01:06:18.180 Signed.

01:06:18.680 And I say to him, you are wrong about fraud.

01:06:22.380 Democrats have activists to go on the ground and knock on doors.

01:06:24.920 They have lawyers like Mark Elias.

01:06:26.300 They outplayed you in every way through a legal process.

01:06:30.160 And the Trump supporters got mad that they were outplayed.

01:06:33.620 So if you feel this way, why are you out here?

01:06:36.460 Because I watched multiple clips of you before this show and you're talking about how like

01:06:41.780 the the prosecutions against Trump by the Department of Justice in multiple states like

01:06:47.740 what's her name?

01:06:48.440 Frannie.

01:06:49.260 Fannie Willis.

01:06:50.060 Willis talking about her in Georgia, how as if she is out here doing something that's

01:06:57.520 underhanded or wrong was just Trump meeting the.

01:07:00.800 Why was Jenna Ellis indicted?

01:07:02.400 Why was she indicted for an election?

01:07:05.140 Well, allegedly because of the selection conspiracy.

01:07:08.220 What's what?

01:07:08.760 What are the what are the specific counts?

01:07:09.860 She was indicted on.

01:07:10.560 I can't speak to that.

01:07:12.080 And that's that's a serious issue.

01:07:13.540 So the issue with Fannie Willis is that she indicted lawyers who did nothing.

01:07:17.420 She indicted members of the Trump administration.

01:07:20.460 How do you know that?

01:07:21.920 I read I read the indictment.

01:07:23.560 Jenna Jenna Ellis is charged on counts one and two simply being part of a criminal conspiracy

01:07:28.420 and solicitation to a public official to violate their oath of office.

01:07:32.060 Why?

01:07:32.600 Because she provided legal counsel to Trump.

01:07:34.780 That's it.

01:07:35.480 She's not charged on.

01:07:36.360 There's 30 some odd counts, one and two only for Jenna Ellis.

01:07:39.460 And the question is, if you go to a lawyer and you say, what what should I do here?

01:07:43.840 And they provide you legal advice to say that's a conspiracy is insane.

01:07:48.000 More importantly, one of the one of the Republicans indicted in Georgia, what he was

01:07:52.540 indicted because he was working with what's called an alternate slate of electors, which

01:07:56.100 this country has always had, particularly 1961, 1961.

01:08:01.300 You're talking about the thing to go up to Mike Pence with the list of fake electors.

01:08:06.380 You think that's a legit tactic?

01:08:07.800 No, I'm saying that a guy, a Republican, went to a group of Republicans who are who are

01:08:14.540 running an election to be electors.

01:08:16.880 He told the press this group exists in the event we win a lawsuit.

01:08:21.740 For example, are you familiar with the election of 1960?

01:08:25.280 I'm not, man.

01:08:26.420 And so this is a big problem.

01:08:28.600 So if you sit here and say Fonnie Willis didn't do anything wrong where it's absurd, but

01:08:31.980 you don't understand the historical context of what an alternate elector is and how they

01:08:35.380 operate, knowing the election of 1960, I'll tell you exactly what happened.

01:08:39.780 Hawaii went Republican.

01:08:41.800 It was certified Republican.

01:08:43.420 The Democrats convened an alternate slate of, as you described, fake electors and delivered

01:08:47.820 the fake electors to the electoral vote count.

01:08:51.080 Richard Nixon, as vice president, said, I am not going to count the certified vote.

01:08:56.380 I'm going to choose the Democrat vote.

01:08:57.960 Does anyone oppose?

01:08:59.200 They did not.

01:09:00.080 And it was chosen.

01:09:01.120 Now, you can argue that shouldn't be done.

01:09:03.040 You can argue that the Republicans should not have done it, but it's not a crime to

01:09:07.820 say that the process of the Constitution requires there be electors in the event a lawsuit is

01:09:13.820 won in court.

01:09:14.860 That's, in fact, the only way it could be done.

01:09:16.980 Multiple things here.

01:09:17.760 The first thing is, you know, Trump is facing.

01:09:21.060 I don't care about Janet Ellis as much as I care about Trump, right?

01:09:24.680 There are multiple indictments in multiple states.

01:09:27.620 Trump is the person I care about.

01:09:29.340 And I think it's worth saying.

01:09:30.540 Like, we haven't had a chance to really talk about Ukraine policy yet.

01:09:33.940 But, you know, like, when Donald Trump went in, like, January 6th happened, like, this

01:09:40.400 was like, just roll the credits for Vladimir Putin on, like, seeing the United States destroy

01:09:46.360 itself.

01:09:46.960 Like, this was his wildest, wildest dream.

01:09:49.320 Absolutely.

01:09:50.200 Well, you have Jackson Hinkle on here to just put forward pro-Kremlin propaganda.

01:09:55.280 Coming back to this, this was a tremendously dark day for the United States.

01:09:59.820 I do think Donald Trump played a role.

01:10:02.120 It's not like there's no evidence.

01:10:03.680 Anyone out there can listen to him, like, saying that clip.

01:10:06.760 You know, I just need you to go find me X number of votes.

01:10:10.800 That phone call of Brad Ratz.

01:10:12.620 I'm going to pause real quick.

01:10:13.940 Please.

01:10:15.040 I think we're running into an issue that is common.

01:10:17.440 Sure.

01:10:17.800 Of people who come on this show.

01:10:19.320 And it's that I don't think you actually read the stuff.

01:10:22.180 Did I sit down, read every single indictment for the five states?

01:10:25.720 Not the indictment.

01:10:26.280 Yeah.

01:10:26.400 Did you read the conversation between Raffensperger and Trump that led to the, I just need you

01:10:31.000 to find the votes?

01:10:31.720 I listened to that entire clip multiple times.

01:10:33.700 So what was the full context is not as you described it.

01:10:36.420 The full context?

01:10:37.320 Are you kidding me, man?

01:10:38.880 Come on.

01:10:39.460 He was obviously trying to do a mob push on.

01:10:42.240 The full context is we found double counted votes in, I think it was Fulton.

01:10:49.880 Those were removed.

01:10:51.040 Oh, Tim.

01:10:52.600 Saying, oh, Tim, isn't a response to the point I'm making.

01:10:55.600 Do you have a response?

01:10:56.900 I don't think that's a credible argument.

01:10:59.000 So I'll do this.

01:11:00.560 You are completely 100% correct and I will see that argument to you.

01:11:02.920 Sure.

01:11:03.120 Now let's pause and we'll talk about Jenna Ellis and why I think saying I don't care

01:11:07.420 about that is part of the problem.

01:11:08.720 Well, hold on.

01:11:09.500 My statement is my focus is not Jenna Ellis.

01:11:13.180 Right.

01:11:13.420 It's Trump.

01:11:14.780 And so when we talk about, say, like the corruption in our judicial, our justice system, I don't

01:11:20.860 say for the most part, you know, look at this charge against Donald Trump for this specific

01:11:25.000 thing he did.

01:11:25.500 In fact, I say Jenna Ellis almost every single time.

01:11:27.640 Don't get me wrong.

01:11:28.220 I think the charges against Trump are laughable and they're egregious.

01:11:31.840 But the real crux of the issue is they're going after his lawyers.

01:11:35.660 And you can argue about Giuliani because Giuliani was deeply involved in a lot.

01:11:39.740 And there's a question about what's the line.

01:11:42.160 But Jenna Ellis didn't do anything.

01:11:43.700 OK.

01:11:44.140 And you can also take a look at Mark Meadows going after former administration.

01:11:49.020 Now, I'll tell you what's really shocking is acting assistant attorney general Jeffrey

01:11:53.080 Clark.

01:11:53.800 He's quite literally appointed to a government position.

01:11:56.760 Trump asks him a question about policy and he says, here's how it works.

01:11:59.720 Here's what I think would happen.

01:12:00.840 And they criminally charge him for it.

01:12:03.500 The fact that Fonny Willis is trying to indict former executive branch officials for giving

01:12:08.060 their legal opinions, as is their duty, is insane.

01:12:11.560 Well, I think if it's his laughable case as you're claiming, I guess it will be a very

01:12:16.060 easy day in court.

01:12:17.180 Also worth saying, you know, Fonny Willis.

01:12:19.200 And hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their pocket.

01:12:20.940 This exact same grand jury.

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01:13:21.080 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:13:26.140 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell

01:13:30.720 our clients that we really care about you.

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01:13:47.020 Did I mention that we care?

01:13:48.460 That, you know, decided to push charges against Donald Trump also is going after a bunch of

01:13:57.680 Antifa activists in Georgia.

01:13:59.660 It's the same grand.

01:14:00.460 It's for all done for Stop Cop City.

01:14:02.940 It's not the same people.

01:14:03.900 Bringing them up on.

01:14:04.800 It was the same grand jury.

01:14:06.180 Different people.

01:14:06.940 Same courtroom.

01:14:07.540 Different people.

01:14:07.960 But, you know, it's the same grand jury that decided to prosecute some people on racketeering

01:14:14.820 charges.

01:14:15.660 And the Democrat recused herself from all the criminal proceedings.

01:14:17.960 My point here is this, to my estimation, seems to be the Justice Department functioning as

01:14:25.360 it should be.

01:14:25.820 Hold on.

01:14:26.260 This is Georgia.

01:14:26.960 This is state level stuff.

01:14:27.820 So.

01:14:28.400 Not DOJ.

01:14:29.380 The Justice Department, meaning the justice system of the United States.

01:14:33.520 What I think is happening here is, I think, frankly, you have a business relationship with

01:14:41.620 the Trump campaign.

01:14:42.680 You're doing events with Trump.

01:14:45.600 And, you know.

01:14:46.360 Never met Trump.

01:14:47.100 I think that it would lead a reasonable person watching your show on the outside to go, what

01:14:53.660 is going on here?

01:14:54.860 Or is Tim really being an impartial observer of this?

01:14:58.160 That's bad faith.

01:14:59.140 No, it's, I mean, if I'm wrong, please tell me.

01:15:02.300 Well, it's completely factually incorrect.

01:15:04.040 So, when have you criticized the Trump, like, just Trump in general?

01:15:09.460 This is another, as I said, we're running into the issue of people who often come from

01:15:13.840 the other side don't watch the show.

01:15:15.540 They'll see selective clips.

01:15:17.100 How about we talk about when I called for Donald Trump to be criminally investigated for

01:15:19.900 the death of an eight-year-old American girl in Yemen?

01:15:21.980 Okay.

01:15:22.940 I do that all the time.

01:15:24.140 Okay.

01:15:24.400 How about all of the issues we've brought up pertaining to, he stopped disclosing the

01:15:29.680 number of drone strikes happening in the Middle East and the argument around that.

01:15:32.160 Sure.

01:15:32.680 But you're still going to vote for him.

01:15:34.380 Oh, yeah.

01:15:34.820 My position is we are looking at a deeply broken and corrupt system that has been for

01:15:39.040 quite some time.

01:15:40.140 And don't get me wrong.

01:15:40.740 The U.S. has a lot of really great things about it.

01:15:42.200 In fact, it's probably the best country on the planet in a lot of different ways.

01:15:45.340 But to sit back and take a look at, like, how the FDA revolving door politics work,

01:15:49.020 how the Obama administration and the big bank.

01:15:51.360 FDA revolving door politics.

01:15:53.340 Yes.

01:15:53.560 Right.

01:15:54.120 Like, someone will work for a major pharmaceutical, and then when they retire, they get appointed

01:15:57.880 to the FDA.

01:15:58.580 Okay.

01:15:58.880 Understood.

01:15:59.080 Right.

01:15:59.260 This has been going on forever.

01:16:00.560 Right.

01:16:00.740 You take a look at the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

01:16:02.260 You take a look at Monsanto.

01:16:03.120 You take a look at how the United States gives favorable—I mean, man, look at 2008.

01:16:08.080 Let's talk about the housing crisis, which destroyed middle-class Americans.

01:16:11.840 The banks were offloading their screw-up, and none of them get arrested for the fraud they

01:16:18.100 committed.

01:16:18.840 Matt Taibbi wrote a fantastic book about this.

01:16:21.320 Absolutely.

01:16:21.600 Everyone should read.

01:16:23.020 It's—and one, just to come back to Eric Holder a minute in Gamergate, history has not

01:16:27.500 been rough enough to Eric Holder.

01:16:28.880 It is failure to do anything.

01:16:31.120 Trump—I didn't vote for him in 2016.

01:16:33.060 And I think, oh boy, he did a lot of what I expected it to be.

01:16:36.420 And come on, John Bolton, the people he brought in and brought around him, they say, like,

01:16:39.720 oh, did he drain the swamp?

01:16:40.680 And I'm like, yeah, come on, man.

01:16:42.320 There were some things he did that I liked.

01:16:43.700 The economy was doing better.

01:16:45.060 He brought back $3 billion worth of manufacturing into Michigan for the auto industry.

01:16:49.620 I like the Abraham Accords.

01:16:50.840 I like the work he did in crossing the DMZ, trying to bring peace to North Korea.

01:16:55.040 And then he did a whole lot of, you know, bad, stupid things that he justified.

01:17:00.040 I respect that he was honest about a good amount of it, such as selling weapons to Saudi

01:17:06.240 Arabia to profit for the U.S. economy or keeping troops in Syria to protect oil.

01:17:10.220 That was hilarious.

01:17:11.100 I'm glad that we had someone like that.

01:17:12.740 But my view of Trump today is what we need is bureaucrats who have been in government

01:17:19.200 for decades, career government employees, to be fired.

01:17:24.120 And the closest we'll probably get to it is a Donald Trump presidency.

01:17:28.400 You know, the Biden administration will reinforce it.

01:17:30.540 DeSantis will compromise with it.

01:17:32.460 Trump, I don't know, if he goes in like a bull in a china shop, we'll get a bunch of

01:17:35.720 broken glass.

01:17:36.620 But we can then go in and clean that up and get rid of the problem.

01:17:38.780 So I think this this is what we should be talking about today, because I think you and I have

01:17:44.380 very different theories of change for the United States.

01:17:48.620 You know, I know this sounds idealistic, but, you know, my father was a naval officer.

01:17:54.380 I think every single day about duty to my country and what I owe my country.

01:18:01.080 I genuinely do.

01:18:02.980 And, you know, what I've seen throughout my lifetime is I think you have an era of leadership

01:18:08.580 of the United States with the baby boomers that history is going to be brutal to.

01:18:13.320 I think that this is an era of their leadership where they've done nothing about climate change,

01:18:18.120 where income inequality has gone through the roof because of their lack of attention.

01:18:22.600 Housing policy is broken.

01:18:24.120 Public transportation is broken.

01:18:25.780 College is broken.

01:18:27.380 Loans are broken.

01:18:28.320 Our auto industry is broken.

01:18:30.060 And they've just made bank the entire time.

01:18:32.320 Not the people that vote, but the leaders themselves on both sides.

01:18:36.100 I think history is going to be brutal.

01:18:37.820 This is where I think we have a difference of perspective here.

01:18:42.160 I see this and I think to myself, you know, Gen X, I'm the youngest Gen X can be in the last year.

01:18:51.780 Gen X, for whatever reason, did not take our place in government.

01:18:57.600 We sat it out.

01:18:58.900 We let our cynicism take over.

01:19:01.020 And we really left the United States to the baby boomers to have an unusually long tenure of power.

01:19:08.520 And Alex, one of the lessons I've learned since Gamergate is there are productive things that I can do about that.

01:19:15.360 And they're unproductive.

01:19:17.180 Unproductive is having a very emotional response on Twitter when I'm getting a death or a rape threat

01:19:22.520 and trying to, you know, basically shame men into acting better.

01:19:28.940 That's not productive.

01:19:29.960 A productive thing I can do is work through a pack to elect candidates that I believe in,

01:19:36.880 who will work on the policies that I believe in.

01:19:40.160 And I think generally speaking, Tim, what I've seen from your show is it seems to me you have this,

01:19:47.840 it's the same criticism I have of a lot of communist Twitter where they want to break,

01:19:53.620 they believe there's going to be this glorious revolution or just break everything apart,

01:19:57.600 then step to his question mark, and then it's utopia.

01:20:02.140 Well, I don't have any of that.

01:20:03.660 It seems like you want to wrecking ball everything.

01:20:08.080 No, I just want people who are unelected and have been in government for two decades to retire.

01:20:13.220 Okay.

01:20:13.740 It's actually not that dramatic of change for this country.

01:20:16.460 We've had, I think it was in like the 50s, a major congressional shift where a bunch of incumbents get voted out.

01:20:22.880 We definitely need something like that.

01:20:24.120 We seem to be locked in.

01:20:26.280 As Nancy Pelosi described it, you could take a glass of water with a D on it and her district is going to vote for it.

01:20:31.640 And so that's an issue.

01:20:32.980 Well, it's San Francisco.

01:20:34.020 Yeah.

01:20:34.180 Right.

01:20:34.640 And despite the problems that they're facing, they don't seek to do anything about it.

01:20:38.100 They don't seek, they seek everything.

01:20:40.380 They just keep doing the same things.

01:20:41.680 Can I just speak to that?

01:20:42.920 Like in Massachusetts, we have a terrible housing crisis.

01:20:46.340 And look, don't get me wrong.

01:20:47.680 I'm team Democrat all day, every day.

01:20:49.620 But I've seen up close in my own efforts to get elected the problem of institutionalized Democratic power in a major city and how it is beholden to the money from big developers and the powerful business interests, right?

01:21:06.920 Exactly.

01:21:07.680 But they're also very pro-union.

01:21:09.760 Massachusetts has some of the strongest unions in the entire country.

01:21:13.320 So I hear what you're saying.

01:21:15.560 I've seen the downside to that.

01:21:17.000 But I don't think you can conclude that the entire system should be thrown away because of that.

01:21:22.540 But I'm not saying the entire system should be thrown away.

01:21:24.040 In fact, I think it should be revitalized.

01:21:25.700 I think the issue is that we've got people who are appointed positions in government, be it intelligence agencies or administrative positions, that are unelected, that are doing a bad job, that we need to fire.

01:21:35.020 Sure.

01:21:35.440 So towards the end of Trump's first term.

01:21:37.200 Can you give me an example of someone like that?

01:21:39.500 Let's just say I don't think the FBI should be centralized, should be decentralized.

01:21:43.760 We can talk about the likes of, you know, Clapper.

01:21:49.100 Clapper's a really great example.

01:21:50.320 He's not there now.

01:21:51.340 But this is an example of the people who should be removed.

01:21:54.040 For instance, when he lied to Congress about NSA spying.

01:21:56.980 Right.

01:21:57.380 But more importantly, outside of trying to name any key individual, right?

01:22:02.400 Just a vague feeling that...

01:22:04.000 No, you've got mid-level managers.

01:22:06.480 Okay.

01:22:06.840 We don't know their names, but they're in these positions.

01:22:09.140 There's too many of them.

01:22:10.060 There's tens of thousands of bureaucrats.

01:22:12.100 We want to whittle this down and kind of take an assessment as to why we're spending so much money on, say, like housing, but not actually solving the crisis.

01:22:20.100 The simplified version is you've got bloated, inconsistent departments that don't seem to be solving their problems.

01:22:28.560 So I'm referring to, say, like Department of Education employees.

01:22:31.840 Would I go as far as to, say, abolish the DOE like Thomas Massey or many of the libertarians?

01:22:36.300 Like, they go a little bit far from me.

01:22:38.040 But I certainly think when you take a look at why we're struggling as a nation in education, but we have all of these employees in this department.

01:22:44.880 So Donald Trump comes in towards the end of his first term.

01:22:48.700 He's he's got Schedule F, which would allow for the speedier termination of many of these government employees.

01:22:56.140 Right.

01:22:56.360 I'm in favor of that.

01:22:57.480 I think centralization of power, be it corporate or government, leads to serious problems, oppression.

01:23:03.600 And periodically, we have to work to decentralize these these systems, be it either through being able to assess and lay off people that have been over too long and shouldn't be there.

01:23:13.800 Or, you know, I think that's probably the best way to do it.

01:23:17.260 So if I can offer a counter perspective on that, you know, a book that really changed my my understanding of how government operates at the highest levels.

01:23:26.980 There's a guy out there, former editor of Time.

01:23:29.220 His name is Richard Stengel.

01:23:30.560 He wrote a fantastic book.

01:23:33.360 It's called Information Warfare.

01:23:35.220 It's all about the State Department's efforts to basically do counter narrative to information warfare by by ISIS under the Obama administration.

01:23:43.860 So you have a guy that works in publishing his entire life, covering powerful government officials.

01:23:48.680 And then, boom, he's in the middle of the highest levels of the State Department and learning how the State Department functions.

01:23:56.480 And you learn things like, you know, the computers there are Windows 98 and you cannot receive email in a real way.

01:24:08.340 And that the reason Colin Powell and Hillary Clinton had this server, email server issues, because the computer system there is so broken and not maintained.

01:24:18.880 It is because they needed to offload to Google so they could do their damn jobs.

01:24:23.840 And you learn about, like, the way it's very decision hesitant because you have career professionals there that know they're going to be there for a Republican or a Democratic, you know, presidency next.

01:24:40.840 So they're very hesitant to do anything that will put their neck out on the chopping block, right?

01:24:45.340 So I read information warfare.

01:24:48.160 And the conclusion I come to with this isn't, you know, the State Department is broken because we need to fire all the middle managers.

01:24:56.700 It's actually the opposite.

01:24:58.040 We need to invest in computer systems.

01:25:00.200 We need to invest in, like, a way to open the front door.

01:25:02.960 We need to, like, invest in the culture so people can speak their mind more freely.

01:25:08.020 We need to professionalize it more.

01:25:10.180 And I think that's a difference between us.

01:25:12.120 No, I agree.

01:25:12.860 The issue is systems aren't comprised of machines.

01:25:15.620 They're comprised of people.

01:25:16.700 And processes.

01:25:17.640 And if the people aren't willing to take the risks or do the job, for whatever reason, you need someone else.

01:25:22.060 But this is, I'm trying to be respectful to your Republican listeners, but it seems to me, generally speaking, if you're talking about the infrastructure of the United States, our airports are completely broken right now.

01:25:35.840 And I think that is largely because we've been unwilling to invest in the kind of information technology overhaul that the FAA really needs.

01:25:46.800 I think the same thing is true at the State Department.

01:25:49.120 We need to be doubling down on the infrastructure, particularly technology infrastructure, that government has to do its jobs.

01:25:57.820 And I do think disproportionately it has been Republican administrations have been unwilling to fund it.

01:26:03.000 Well, let's start from the beginning.

01:26:04.180 Sure.

01:26:04.500 The way I see it is the nation gets a wound.

01:26:08.340 We get a cut on our arm.

01:26:09.420 Yeah.

01:26:09.860 And so to deal with that, we put a band-aid over it.

01:26:12.000 We put a bandage on top.

01:26:13.100 Right.

01:26:13.880 If we, first thing we got to do is we got to remove the bandage after a week, clean it, and then apply a new one.

01:26:18.540 Yeah.

01:26:18.820 That's the funding you're talking about.

01:26:19.900 Yeah.

01:26:20.120 However, right now, if we just simply say it's broken, put another band-aid on it, you get a festering wound.

01:26:24.640 Yeah.

01:26:25.040 The FAA right now.

01:26:26.380 So what we need is the failed leaders who are not doing what needs to be done, the people who are not doing their jobs effectively, the bloated systems and the wasted money need to be assessed and then realigned.

01:26:38.060 So if this results in more funding or more efficient use of funding, the first thing you have to do is an audit, essentially.

01:26:45.080 Sure.

01:26:45.300 An audit of all of these systems.

01:26:46.600 Right.

01:26:46.900 But I'd be willing to be satisfied if that was the case.

01:26:49.160 However, I do look at all of these systems and I see nobody's going to, like you mentioned, no one wants to put their neck out to lose their job.

01:26:56.060 Sure.

01:26:56.440 So everyone is going to fight as hard as possible to keep the position they have in the government.

01:27:00.720 And we're probably at the point where I think after several decades of this, we have to say, tear off the bandage, clean it down.

01:27:08.320 Sure.

01:27:08.780 New program or maintain same funding, but you've got to clean it up.

01:27:13.360 But wouldn't you agree with me?

01:27:15.540 Like if you look at government and let's just be clear, the Obama administration had a wonderful program with a bunch of people from the tech industry that worked for his administration.

01:27:24.220 They started looking at the technology infrastructure challenges of the United States and wanted to bring their experience at Google, Apple, Microsoft, all these tech companies to come in and fix our broken processes.

01:27:35.940 I believe that one of the reasons our technology infrastructure in the United States is so broken is because boomers don't consider these problems the way you and I understand that they're problems.

01:27:47.280 This is Gen X's fault and the boomers' fault because we understand these problems.

01:27:53.080 It's important to us.

01:27:54.820 It's not important to them in the same way.

01:27:57.200 So we need to be more invested.

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01:29:23.440 Did I mention that we care?

01:29:26.860 I think it all comes down to everything is the boomer's fault.

01:29:31.820 Just you name it.

01:29:32.980 I'm being...

01:29:33.240 I don't want to be mean, but I think it's true to some extent.

01:29:36.380 And I must give credit to the boomers for things like Star Trek The Next Generation, Stargate, and the great things they did.

01:29:42.980 But for whatever reason, it's not just the boomers.

01:29:47.460 I'm being hyperbolic.

01:29:48.400 But also, I think, was it Silent was before boomers?

01:29:51.320 Yeah.

01:29:51.620 Gen Xers were primarily raised by Silent because generations come in waves.

01:29:55.620 But whatever it is between the Silent and the boomer generation, they did not instill civic duty in their children.

01:30:02.300 So now you have Gen Xers and millennials who are just like, I'm not going to be involved in this.

01:30:07.860 And you've got Mitch McConnell freezing in place, Dianne Feinstein in a wheelchair, hospitalized.

01:30:13.660 These people are clearly too old for this job and we need anyone.

01:30:17.440 When Nancy Pelosi was running, I think this was, it might have been 2018, I actually donated to the Progressive Challenger because I'm like, we desperately need the octogenarian to retire.

01:30:31.280 And the younger woman who was running, I disagree with a lot of issues.

01:30:35.720 However, she was anti-Middle Eastern intervention and she was for a lot of things I agree with in terms of ending war.

01:30:41.000 And I said, that is infinitely better than what Nancy Pelosi has been doing.

01:30:45.460 Sure.

01:30:46.220 Instead-

01:30:46.840 I've critiqued Nancy Pelosi in the New York Times many times.

01:30:52.140 There's just too many people who, for whatever reason, are grasping to power instead of sitting in a rocking chair in the sun having some tea and enjoying the rest of their days.

01:31:01.020 So this is my challenge to you, Tim.

01:31:03.400 And just give me a minute here to talk through this because my perspective as a political professional might be slightly different than yours.

01:31:11.120 But something you were talking about with Emma that I really found super striking is you were talking about the way your show was funded versus the way Majority Report is funded and the difference there.

01:31:22.660 And am I correct to understand, like, a lot of your revenue doesn't come from Google AdSense.

01:31:27.280 It comes from direct support from listeners.

01:31:29.840 Is that correct?

01:31:30.820 We don't.

01:31:32.440 It's split between direct sponsorships, memberships to the website.

01:31:38.300 I think it's probably like 50-60% memberships.

01:31:41.140 Wow.

01:31:41.720 And then the rest is-

01:31:42.720 That's huge, man.

01:31:43.780 Yeah.

01:31:44.060 Congratulations.

01:31:44.540 Almost all memberships.

01:31:46.240 But that's comparable to the Young Turks.

01:31:47.820 That's really impressive.

01:31:49.120 Yeah.

01:31:49.480 I think they're bigger, but-

01:31:51.080 One of the things, at least Cenk has found frustrating, he's talked to me about, is because Google controls so much of who sees his content, it's very hard for him to mobilize the Young Turks audience.

01:32:08.880 And every single show has this problem because Google is, from a data perspective, a black box.

01:32:14.900 So it's difficult for Cenk to go to his audience and say, compare it against the voter file and figure out who is registered to vote to send them a link to register to vote to make sure they can do that in this election.

01:32:28.300 It seems to me, since so much of your show is membership supported, my challenge to you is you do have that information.

01:32:37.120 And I would prefer your audience feel empowered to go participate in elections and make their voice heard, even if they aren't going to vote the same way I do.

01:32:45.800 That's the message of our show.

01:32:46.700 I would hope, I think you have a responsibility, I think all of us that are public figures have a responsibility to back away from this brink of civil war and to talk about healthy ways to engage and solve our differences in this country.

01:33:03.200 And I just have to say, man, if you've studied civil wars around the world and how they work and the bloodshed and warlords getting control of medicine and food and water supply and rape, it is horrible.

01:33:19.120 This is a thing we should all be deeply concerned with.

01:33:22.300 I would rather talk about feminism a million times more than democracy.

01:33:27.000 But most of my job is talking about democracy now because I do think we're on the brink.

01:33:31.060 I invite you, just last thing, I invite you, work within the political process.

01:33:37.140 That's what we do.

01:33:37.640 Get your audience engaged.

01:33:38.740 I don't see that.

01:33:39.460 That's the literal message of the show we've made every single day for the past.

01:33:43.280 In fact, I went on like a 20-minute tirade two nights ago in the Uncensored show about the need for people to go knock on doors and go vote.

01:33:52.600 And that's what we've always said.

01:33:54.140 So I suppose the issue we're dealing with is civil war isn't something that the average person ever wants.

01:34:03.060 Of course.

01:34:03.500 Revolution, for the most part, isn't something the average person ever wants.

01:34:05.840 Not even in the American Revolution.

01:34:08.080 The issue, though, is what is happening in terms of the bifurcated view of people in this country and the absolute rejection.

01:34:17.100 There is no argument to be made on some of these issues.

01:34:21.760 And as this generation, I believe predominantly millennials, I'm not sure how it will affect with Gen Z.

01:34:27.420 This could be averted if Gen Z is more unified in their worldview.

01:34:30.320 But I'm not so sure that's the case considering the data we've seen.

01:34:32.600 From the polling I've seen, it's actually very consistent.

01:34:35.640 But we've done ourselves.

01:34:37.580 But I mean, if you look like Pew Research and just recently, Gen Z is skewing more conservative for the first time in 100 years.

01:34:46.280 Not from what we've done directly.

01:34:48.080 Pew Research shows that Gen Z, while almost entirely comparable to millennials in terms of their political views, tick slightly right for the first time in 100 years.

01:34:57.760 I can pull up for you.

01:34:58.680 I will show you our own data we've done after the show.

01:35:02.640 It's not what we found at all.

01:35:04.700 So we also just had that story that came out showing that 12th grade males are overwhelmingly skewing.

01:35:09.720 I did see that.

01:35:10.440 Well, I think that speaks to the failure of feminism.

01:35:13.700 And I think that we need to be more engaged in having answers for men's lives as well.

01:35:18.320 Here's an overly simplified take.

01:35:20.260 I'm not going to read through the entirety of the assessment, but it's from 2019.

01:35:23.040 And you take a look at government should do more to solve problems.

01:35:26.900 Gen Z, of course, more favorable to government.

01:35:28.680 You take a look at increasing ethnic diversity is good.

01:35:30.960 And it's fairly comparable.

01:35:32.220 And then take a look at approval of Trump's job performance and Gen Z ticks slightly more in favor.

01:35:37.440 There are a bunch of other metrics in this that show Gen Z.

01:35:42.200 That's what I'm saying.

01:35:43.440 Overwhelmingly, Gen Z is almost completely comparable to millennials.

01:35:48.220 But it's the first time in 100 years we see in any way Gen Z is shifting.

01:35:52.700 I mean, take a look at this.

01:35:54.100 Gen Z is slightly less likely to believe in climate change, man-made climate change.

01:35:58.040 So these are the issues that lead me to believe or to say, when you're looking at the conflict we're experiencing, let's go back to Gamergate.

01:36:07.880 Why was it that the first culture war battle was about video games?

01:36:10.860 Well, that was the lives of 20-year-old individuals.

01:36:15.500 People fresh out of college or in college who are working for a media publication aren't going to be writing about the politics of Liechtenstein.

01:36:21.080 They're going to be writing about the new video game that came out.

01:36:23.040 The people who are going to be upset about the political changes happening are going to be the people who are in that culture.

01:36:27.520 We're now 10 years on.

01:36:30.360 These people are in their 30s and are dealing with taxes, homeownership.

01:36:33.200 So now their disparate worldviews are pertaining more to the absolute political landscape.

01:36:37.980 So I just want to say, because I've literally paid for this poll myself, done it professionally through YouGov, professional data scientists, all of that.

01:36:46.760 We didn't release it to the public, but I can show you after the show.

01:36:49.780 So what we have found is Gen Z are remarkably pragmatic voters.

01:36:55.700 They don't particularly like Biden, but they really don't like the Republican Party.

01:37:00.800 And they will vote for anyone who is not a Republican from the data that we've seen.

01:37:07.400 Not all of them, but directionally the majority of them.

01:37:09.760 If you look at civics, you can see that there's almost four.

01:37:13.880 It used to be Democrat and Republican, but now you overwhelmingly have a third of like, probably not more than a third of young people, but a third of voters being like the Democrats suck.

01:37:23.260 And then a third Republican suck.

01:37:25.280 And it's created four positions where it's like conservative leading person who hates both parties, Democrat leading person who hates both parties, then Democrat voter and Republican voter.

01:37:34.100 But this just, this is another data.

01:37:36.880 This just came out at the end of July.

01:37:39.000 High school boys are trending conservative.

01:37:40.540 So this led to, you know, a big Internet trend.

01:37:44.040 I mean, even it's dropped precipitously.

01:37:46.360 But here's my point to go back to the conversation about civil war.

01:37:49.500 Or it's not an issue of people have been convinced to believe in something.

01:37:54.620 It's an issue of people were raised in two different worlds and now they're getting older and coming into power at odds with each other in extreme ways.

01:38:01.900 Right.

01:38:02.360 So to come back to the graph you just put on screen, you could show an identical graph for young women who are being born in a world without access to abortion.

01:38:11.440 Right.

01:38:11.640 You can see liberals like work.

01:38:13.400 So I think you can look at the result for women as practically a mirror of that.

01:38:17.800 But so I think that's worth noting.

01:38:19.920 Literal mirror.

01:38:20.540 Literal mirror.

01:38:21.040 Yeah.

01:38:21.340 Yeah.

01:38:22.120 Yeah.

01:38:22.520 So this is, males are becoming less liberal.

01:38:24.640 It's very, very interesting.

01:38:26.440 So that's why I say for the most part, Gen Z looks, according to like Pew and a bunch of the other souls, fairly comparable.

01:38:32.860 But I think what we're seeing here is, I mean, this is interesting, gendered bifurcation.

01:38:37.140 Yeah.

01:38:37.500 But I bring that up.

01:38:38.720 If I could just say something about this.

01:38:40.380 I think I really, one of the lessons I've learned from Gamergate is I really remember thinking this, Alex, back in the day, that if we just shamed people enough and we pointed out the bad behavior enough and just retweeted enough of the death and rape threats that were going on,

01:38:59.380 that there would be a moment where the shame would kick in and gamers would act better.

01:39:05.900 Of course, that's a future that is never going to happen.

01:39:09.560 When the actual Gamergate TV show that's in development, one of the things I pitched and kind of turned it into is talking more about what happened with the men, the young men during Gamergate.

01:39:22.260 That's the more interesting story to me.

01:39:24.140 What's going on in their lives to make them feel like they have no voice, to make them feel lonely?

01:39:28.940 Why is Andrew Tate taking off so much?

01:39:31.660 Like, why are young men so angry?

01:39:33.460 And there's a lot of reasons for that.

01:39:36.220 And I think, like, if we don't get really serious about solving this crisis of lonely young men in this country, like, don't get me wrong.

01:39:45.540 You and I probably disagree on gun safety policy, but an equal part of that problem is the fact that we are creating so many phenomenally dangerous, young, lonely, desperate men.

01:39:58.720 And there's a mental health crisis that we've got to pay very close attention to.

01:40:03.000 I agree with that.

01:40:03.800 So to go back to what I was discussing, we're bringing up Civil War, I have these articles.

01:40:08.860 Go ahead.

01:40:09.620 My question to you first, as just like an opening preliminary, your stance on abortion, I assume.

01:40:17.040 Yeah, I've got the typical.

01:40:19.460 But is it 2000s Democrat or is it modern progressive, right?

01:40:24.220 So the question, a better question.

01:40:25.720 Sure.

01:40:25.980 Do you think there should be any restrictions at any point or should there be some restrictions at some point?

01:40:29.940 So you're not going to like my answer and feminists are not going to like my answer that I've been in this game enough to recognize their political realities.

01:40:39.560 We need to think through.

01:40:41.240 And, you know, if we had to sacrifice, like, say, abortion a month out of actually, you know, like eight months out to get a solid, like, non-interpretative, absolute right to abortion for the first eight months.

01:40:59.360 I would be fine with that.

01:41:01.380 I'm generally speaking, if I'm looking at a policy, I'm asking myself what is going to do the most good in this particular moment.

01:41:08.140 And I want to move the needle towards what gives women the most freedom over their own bodies.

01:41:13.280 So what we see, the two states that I use as an example, Colorado and Oklahoma.

01:41:17.440 Oklahoma's banned it outright.

01:41:18.800 Colorado has unrestricted it to the point of birth.

01:41:20.860 Okay.

01:41:21.780 These are worldviews that cannot coexist.

01:41:24.820 You can't have a state.

01:41:26.100 You can't have some states.

01:41:27.980 You can elect new people.

01:41:29.360 And power.

01:41:30.320 Oh, for sure.

01:41:30.860 Yeah.

01:41:31.080 But I'm talking about the worldview of the citizenry who voted for certain things.

01:41:34.040 Sure.

01:41:34.280 The leader is not material to how these things come to conflict.

01:41:39.040 So one of the challenges we had going back to the first civil war, which existed since the dawn of this country, is who does the Constitution apply to?

01:41:47.320 And this leads to the 14th Amendment to make it unambiguous that if you are born in this country, then you get human rights.

01:41:54.040 But there is a question in the 14th Amendment about whether you have to be born or not.

01:41:58.500 Being born grants you citizenship, but human rights apply to humans.

01:42:01.640 And so the question that's being brought up now is, like back then, who is human?

01:42:06.780 Right.

01:42:07.080 Oklahoma says an unborn human has human rights.

01:42:10.880 Colorado says they do not.

01:42:13.100 According to the Jersey.

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01:43:38.100 Did I mention that we care?

01:43:41.380 It's pretty nice right now.

01:43:42.780 But yeah.

01:43:43.120 So, so, yeah.

01:43:44.120 I think it's a question of the federal government, not state governments, to determine who is to be granted constitutional rights.

01:43:51.400 This has to be clear and unambiguous by the Supreme Court, which is probably why at first I thought Roe v. Wade being overturned was probably good in that states would determine what was best for their states.

01:44:01.740 And then shortly after realized you can't have a question of human rights be determined individually at a state level when the constitution applies federally.

01:44:09.000 Yeah.

01:44:09.340 So if the constitution guarantees you certain things, we have to determine at what point we recognize.

01:44:15.980 My concern is if we're coming to a point where that's actually eroding, it doesn't matter if the states determine it one way or the other or the federal government does.

01:44:23.720 What matters is that the country is split completely in half on the issue of who gets human rights and has been for a while.

01:44:30.140 See, this is my, this is where I think you and I have disagreement because I look at the loss of Roe and the way I think of this is, you know, I've seen enough of your show to understand you have a certain stereotype of what leftists are.

01:44:44.700 This is my experience of who the Democratic Party is.

01:44:47.780 It's a bunch of women my age that are moms that go phone bank and knock on doors and do all this unglamorous, unsexy work behind the scenes.

01:44:59.620 It's people that live in their town and go to DTCs that stand up.

01:45:04.640 It's people that go to every single town meeting.

01:45:06.820 But that is our position.

01:45:07.880 Hold on.

01:45:08.740 Well, you mischaracterize our view of what liberals are.

01:45:11.460 I want to make sure that's clear.

01:45:12.240 Okay, well, if you agree with that, it's not what I've gotten from your show, but thank you for clearing that up.

01:45:16.880 Leftists are not Democrats.

01:45:18.060 Okay, fair enough.

01:45:19.120 So these are the people that, in my view, have power here.

01:45:22.560 I think that we as a party have sat and taken abortion rights for granted for far too long.

01:45:30.840 The Obama administration had a moment where they could codify this into law and chose not to.

01:45:35.740 And I think this is a real wake-up call for women and Democrats in general, that we need to organize, we need to show up, we need to donate to our own lobbying groups that will make this a priority.

01:45:46.840 And we need to work through the legislative process to secure this again.

01:45:51.280 It's not going to happen overnight.

01:45:52.560 It's going to be a 20-year project, but we need to work through the system.

01:45:55.760 I don't think it's an issue that can be codified or solved.

01:46:00.460 The question is, very simply, if a baby—

01:46:03.760 Yeah, there's always going to be a difference between our positions.

01:46:06.240 But it's an extreme one.

01:46:07.320 It's who is human and who has granted constitutional rights.

01:46:10.140 I think that this issue is ginned up by the media in a way that's disproportionate to its impact on people.

01:46:20.860 And I think if the media were concentrated—this is a larger critique of the media—the media were more—if we talked more about the issues that actually affect people's lives, housing policy, inflation, real wages, income inequality.

01:46:35.220 I think if we solved those issues, I think that this kind of culture war stuff would be less divisive.

01:46:43.400 And I think it's a choice we make every single day.

01:46:46.160 Are we working productively, or are we at each other's throats?

01:46:51.220 Yeah, I completely disagree.

01:46:53.020 I think the fundamental worldviews and moral structures of the left and the right today are unbridgeable.

01:46:58.560 Oh, I completely disagree.

01:47:01.220 I could not disagree with you more.

01:47:03.240 Let's take a look at a couple books that we've got on the table here.

01:47:06.040 I can't defend that book.

01:47:07.440 I looked at it before the show.

01:47:08.540 But why does the corporate press, why does the Democratic Party, why does the Department of Education, why are these school boards?

01:47:14.420 And to be specific, it's two books, Gender, Queer, and This Book is Gay.

01:47:18.700 Completely inappropriate for kids.

01:47:20.040 Why?

01:47:20.780 When a teacher, a middle school teacher, provided this book to her 10-year-old, 12-year-old students, which includes instructions on using Grindr, they called the police on her.

01:47:30.740 Why did Emma defend it?

01:47:31.560 I, look, I love Emma.

01:47:33.740 I'm not going to say a bad word about her.

01:47:35.120 I have a different position there.

01:47:36.620 I think it is utterly routine for libraries across this country to look at what is in the books for their students and to make judgment calls.

01:47:44.500 I have no objection to that whatsoever.

01:47:46.840 I do think that access to LGBT material, which is age-appropriate, is just a free speech, free information, libraries, open society kind of issue, and I support that.

01:48:00.400 But if an individual book is like someone's looking at it and is determining it's too graphic for an age audience, I have zero issue with that.

01:48:07.360 So we can agree, right?

01:48:09.980 Genderqueer is completely inappropriate, as is This Book is Gay.

01:48:12.700 Sure.

01:48:12.900 Yet it is popping up in schools.

01:48:15.240 And when parents say, like Loudoun County, which is literally 30 seconds away, when the parents there said, why is this book being taught, the FBI labels them terrorists.

01:48:23.440 Do you know what I hear about, Tim, from people that I talk to that are actually parents and what they're thinking about in school?

01:48:30.400 They're thinking about their child that has depression after being at home for a year for COVID, and they're under-socialized, and they're on Adderall.

01:48:38.780 But that's not-

01:48:39.400 They're talking on Instagram, doing damage to their teenage girls.

01:48:42.340 I hear you and I agree with you this should not be in schools.

01:48:46.160 I just don't think real people care as much as you do.

01:48:49.100 Why are we seeing parents all across the country at these board meetings and these videos keep popping up?

01:48:54.160 Who are these people that keep showing up to these meetings and having these videos filmed of them saying, why is this in my school?

01:49:00.060 We have hundreds of instances in the past year alone or so.

01:49:04.740 You just recently had a viral video of a man trying to read from one of these books, and he was removed.

01:49:09.180 They turned his mic off and they removed him.

01:49:10.560 Not the first time we've seen it.

01:49:11.900 We had Asra Noamani come on the show, I think almost two years ago, with a stack of books.

01:49:15.640 And it's not just about these inappropriate, it's about ideological bents that are causing issues with parents.

01:49:22.000 I'm agreeing with you.

01:49:23.080 I know.

01:49:23.360 I'm not saying you're disagreeing.

01:49:24.380 I'm saying-

01:49:24.860 There's a role for them to play.

01:49:26.920 And I think if a parent wants to go to their PTA and talk about this, I think that's utterly routine.

01:49:32.300 This is free society stuff.

01:49:33.680 So when you have, at the highest level of politics, a bifurcation between worldviews, whether you agree with me or not, that's granular.

01:49:41.880 The issue being, when Florida, for instance, passed the Parental Rights and Education Bill, which was fairly broad, the response from the Democratic Party in the media was, don't say gay, which was a complete misinterpretation of what the bill actually was for political reasons.

01:49:56.580 This is the kind of thing that is leading people to say, like, we are on the verge, among many other things.

01:50:02.460 There's grains of sand that ultimately make a heap.

01:50:04.900 But these are things that are leading to the bifurcation of this country.

01:50:07.820 So I know this sounds idealistic, Tim, but this is something Cenk and I talk about a lot, that I think that this is something that's meant to divide us.

01:50:18.260 And I want to be really clear.

01:50:19.420 I have a different assessment of LGBT rights than I think you do.

01:50:23.280 But at the same time, in my experience, like when I ran for office, I counted it one time.

01:50:29.500 It was tens, 20, 30,000 conversations I had when I ran for office, getting off effing Twitter, out there in the real world, shaking their hands, talking to people, meeting them at the door, asking questions.

01:50:44.060 What's important to you?

01:50:45.180 What's important in your kid's life?

01:50:46.920 What's the biggest policy issue that you care about?

01:50:49.300 And overwhelmingly, Republican or Democrat.

01:50:54.160 It is housing.

01:50:55.580 It is real wages.

01:50:57.100 And something Cenk and I feel very, very, very strongly about is, yes, this stuff is important to me.

01:51:03.940 But if we're looking at getting America back on the right track, we've got to focus more broadly on what impacts your audience's lives.

01:51:13.640 And just one more thing, I think if your audience was being real and they were in the room today, I think they would tell me they care a lot more about how they're going to pay their rent than that damn buck.

01:51:24.760 Well, of course.

01:51:25.260 Yeah.

01:51:25.740 Most people.

01:51:26.360 So why did we not talk about that as much?

01:51:29.000 But most, but I think that is the issue.

01:51:31.380 I think the issue is people looked at 2019 and the strong economic numbers and then the Democratic Party's underhanded manipulations to try and stop Trump.

01:51:40.080 And that is ripping this country.

01:51:42.080 I don't agree it was underhanded.

01:51:43.640 Well, so like the first impeachment we now know was a hoax, right?

01:51:47.840 Ukraine gave.

01:51:49.700 Okay.

01:51:50.340 I don't share that assessment.

01:51:51.740 But it's only because you don't know, right?

01:51:53.380 You didn't read the sworn F.

01:51:54.700 I followed that pretty closely.

01:51:55.540 Have you read the sworn F at Davidson of Ukraine?

01:51:57.200 Have you read the New York Times report on what Ukraine was engaged in during the 2016 election?

01:52:01.000 Do you know who Viktor Shokin is?

01:52:02.580 I think I've listened to the hearings and I cannot give you direct quotes of everything that happened back then.

01:52:08.460 My point.

01:52:08.960 Hold on.

01:52:09.480 Hold on.

01:52:09.800 But I remember hearing the phone call.

01:52:12.360 Well, who is the NSA guy that came in?

01:52:14.700 The guy that came in?

01:52:16.260 Alexander Vindman.

01:52:17.460 Hearing his testimony.

01:52:19.080 I think that what Trump did was very clearly a shakedown.

01:52:22.580 What did Trump do?

01:52:23.420 He tried to influence the foreign policy of the United States to dig up dirt on his political opponent.

01:52:30.580 What's wrong with that?

01:52:31.420 It is obviously wrong.

01:52:35.700 Okay, so should Joe Biden be impeached for telling A.G. and Merrick Garland to go after Trump?

01:52:41.540 I don't.

01:52:42.320 New York Times reported Joe Biden went to Merrick Garland and instructed him to go after Trump.

01:52:46.720 I think that there is a very big difference in someone giving the Justice Department a free hand to pursue illegalities where they may exist and someone doing a shakedown threatening things that affect our geostability in the entire world and the national security policy of the United States.

01:53:06.860 Do you think Donald Trump had the authority to withhold congressionally approved loan guarantees to Ukraine unless they took the political action he wanted?

01:53:14.620 I think at the core, Donald Trump is a crook.

01:53:17.960 Okay, can you answer?

01:53:19.240 Do you think Donald Trump had the authority to do that?

01:53:20.600 I would need to sit down and look at that particular instance.

01:53:23.680 So you don't know?

01:53:24.580 My recollection of the first impeachment was it was very well founded.

01:53:27.820 Okay, so the issue of the question is, well, I mean, if you don't know about it.

01:53:31.560 Most people looked at this when it happened and reached the same assessment that I did.

01:53:37.500 I think saying most people is probably one, an appeal to authority, but doesn't apply when the country split in half, right?

01:53:43.540 With 75 million people voted for Donald Trump, clearly didn't agree with what you're saying.

01:53:46.560 I think something you're really skilled at doing is you find these edge cases that prove a point you want to have.

01:53:53.120 I think directionally, most reasonable people would look at the phone call that he had that Alexander Vindman came forward and talked about

01:54:00.340 and understand that's an underhanded thing to do.

01:54:03.260 Right, so it's really easy to use.

01:54:06.120 This is a beautiful trick of the corporate press, and I'll criticize a right-wing publication for using this technique.

01:54:12.380 The CDC recently came out, said with the B2, I think it was the B286 variant,

01:54:16.820 those who have immunity, either because of previous COVID infection or the COVID vaccine, are more susceptible to this virus.

01:54:23.500 Leading report, I think it's called, tweeted, the CDC says,

01:54:26.240 if you've been vaccinated, you're more likely to catch the new variant, which is cutting out a large portion of the context.

01:54:34.360 So it's masterfully done.

01:54:36.100 I think it was masterfully done how the Democrats took a legitimate national security issue for which Trump did what he was supposed to do

01:54:42.080 and turned it into Trump did something wrong.

01:54:44.160 But of course, you'd hold that position if you don't actually know the circumstances around it.

01:54:47.280 Tim, I would ask you to talk to me with respect.

01:54:50.420 I did follow this.

01:54:51.380 But no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:54:52.400 It's not a question of respect that you don't know this.

01:54:54.600 It's not a question of being disrespectful or respectful.

01:54:56.800 I don't focus on the same edge cases.

01:54:58.700 It's not an edge case.

01:54:59.320 It's the impeachment of the president.

01:55:00.620 This is the first impeachment of Donald Trump and why it was done and who did it.

01:55:05.420 So there's a whole lot to this.

01:55:07.020 For instance, Joe Biden, we now know, was involved with Hunter Biden's business dealings.

01:55:12.880 Of course, at the time they said it wasn't true.

01:55:14.200 We now know that he used an alias, was it Robert L. Peters or Robert Ware, to provide government information to Hunter Biden and to Devin Archer as they were engaged in foreign business dealings.

01:55:23.960 By all means, you can think that's fine.

01:55:25.300 That's not the issue at question.

01:55:26.400 No, it's not that I think it's fine.

01:55:27.620 It's that the assessment I reach is, look, if the Justice Department wants to investigate Hunter Biden and look at this stuff with Joe Biden, I have zero issue with that.

01:55:36.720 Donald Trump was the Justice Department.

01:55:38.040 The difference in our assessment here is I have no objection to the rule of law in the Justice Department looking into politicians that do things that are wrong.

01:55:48.000 I think we need a million times more of it.

01:55:50.400 I think you and I would probably agree.

01:55:52.780 Like there was a bill before the House when Nancy Pelosi was in charge looking insider trading by Congress.

01:56:00.360 Of course that should be passed.

01:56:02.220 So let me ask you.

01:56:02.940 Of course, and they don't do that.

01:56:04.240 I want to see much more aggressive.

01:56:07.000 We agree.

01:56:07.560 But let's get to the core of the impeachment.

01:56:09.740 Well, so because I think that when you're a public figure, you're held to higher standards of ethics and behavior.

01:56:17.200 You know, I think we are far too willing to let our own side off the hook.

01:56:21.620 And respectfully, I think you're doing that.

01:56:23.500 Should Joe Biden be impeached for threatening the president of Ukraine with withholding congressionally approved loan guarantees unless they fired the prosecutor who was investigating Burisma?

01:56:32.120 I don't.

01:56:33.040 I've never read anything that that's true.

01:56:34.740 OK, yes.

01:56:36.460 Joe Biden is on camera sitting with the Council of Foreign Relations, and he said, I went to Ukraine and I spoke with the president and he said, unless you fire the prosecutor, you're not getting the billion dollars.

01:56:46.920 Are you familiar with this?

01:56:48.400 I'm not.

01:56:49.200 OK, we'll have to pull that video.

01:56:50.780 You see, this is the challenge.

01:56:51.880 Right now, we have not only have we had a sworn affidavit.

01:56:56.600 We have a sworn affidavit from Victor Shokin.

01:57:01.960 We have additional statements from him.

01:57:06.080 Oh, man, pulling up this stuff on the fly.

01:57:08.220 Oh, let's see.

01:57:08.980 It is rather remarkable that you're unfamiliar with this.

01:57:18.280 Probably better off pulling it up on Twitter, to be completely honest.

01:57:21.760 Oy.

01:57:22.380 I'd prefer to see a reputable news source.

01:57:25.380 I'll just I'll get you the CFR's actual video of it.

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01:58:53.840 Oh, you just jump in here and old Twitter and then, uh, that it's, it's, so here's the latest from Victor Shokin, but, uh, here's a, here's just the video of the CFR, uh,

01:59:14.180 Hold on, what is this Twitter account?

01:59:16.920 Can we go back?

01:59:18.340 I meme, therefore I am.

01:59:19.920 Okay.

01:59:21.440 Is a, is a CFR video of Joe Biden not, not good enough for you though?

01:59:25.220 Convincing us that we should be providing for loan guarantees.

01:59:28.780 And I went over, I guess, can you start you over Tim so I can really pay attention?

01:59:33.400 I remember going over convincing our team or others to convincing us that we should be providing for loan guarantees.

01:59:41.280 And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kyiv and, uh, and I was going, supposed to announce that there was another billion dollar loan guarantee.

01:59:51.720 And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from, uh, Yatsenyuk that they would take action against a state prosecutor and they didn't.

02:00:01.100 So they said they had, they were walking out to press conference and I said, nah, I said, I'm not going to, we're not going to give you the billion dollars.

02:00:07.440 Isn't this about the corruption?

02:00:08.780 They said, you have no authority, you're not the president.

02:00:10.200 Even if the president said, I said, call him, I said, I'm telling you, you're not getting a billion dollars.

02:00:15.940 I said, you're not getting a billion.

02:00:17.320 I'm going to be leaving here.

02:00:18.320 And I think it was what, six hours.

02:00:19.680 I looked at it, I said, I'm leaving in six hours.

02:00:21.660 If the prosecutor's not fired, you're not getting the money.

02:00:24.700 Well, son of a bitch, got fired.

02:00:27.760 And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

02:00:33.000 Well, the assumption I'm going to make here, and this is in good faith.

02:00:37.060 The assumption I'm going to make here is there were issues with corrupt prosecutors in Ukraine.

02:00:44.100 False.

02:00:45.220 As I understand it, that is what was going on there.

02:00:47.960 And I would strongly suspect that's what Biden is talking about, because there were issues getting people the money.

02:00:53.020 I mean, sure, when someone mugged someone, they said, I didn't mug him, I was just asking for the money.

02:00:56.760 The actual, the evidence that we have currently is that Joe Biden was involved with Hunter Biden.

02:01:01.480 Hunter Biden was on the board of Burisma.

02:01:03.000 Hunter Biden was receiving $83,000 per month.

02:01:05.180 With his partner's partnership with Devin Archer, they were involved in a slew of business dealings for which Joe Biden claimed he wasn't involved.

02:01:13.340 But we now know was using an alias to provide government information.

02:01:15.620 The prosecutor, Victor Shokin, in Ukraine had about a dozen plus, according to Matt Taibbi, open investigations into the corruption of Mykola Zlachevsky.

02:01:24.000 It is now known that Hunter Biden was asked to make a call to D.C. to help solve this problem, for which a few days later, Joe Biden flew to Ukraine.

02:01:33.180 And without the authority to do so, because the vice president does not have authority to withhold congressionally approved loan guarantees, threatened the president that he would withhold it unless they fired the prosecutor.

02:01:41.000 Because after the fact, they say this, we put in someone good.

02:01:45.200 Now, the problem with this story is how do you have no intention?

02:01:49.160 Let's let's let's let's let's get there.

02:01:50.380 Mykola Zlachevsky, the founder of Burisma, had fled the country during these investigations.

02:01:55.360 We know that Hunter Biden was asked specifically to call D.C. to deal with the prosecutor investigating Burisma.

02:02:01.820 After Joe Biden went and got the prosecutor fired, they put in someone who he said was solid.

02:02:06.320 And then the corrupt Zlachevsky returns to Ukraine.

02:02:09.220 When Donald Trump began looking back into what this was about, Zlachevsky flees the country again.

02:02:14.660 So here we have evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence for which you've never heard.

02:02:19.040 But the fact remains, Joe Biden was engaging in private business dealings.

02:02:24.120 If you want to argue he it's fine, he does, because they all influence pedal, make arguments about Ivanka Trump.

02:02:29.480 And I'm not saying you I'm the rhetorical you sure that Ivanka was doing trade deals or copyright stuff with China.

02:02:35.800 Fine. But for the vice president to fly out a few days after Hunter Biden contacts D.C.

02:02:42.780 with a problem of a, quote unquote, prosecutor investigating or a prosecutor, quote unquote, investigating Burisma.

02:02:48.280 And he then threatens a quid pro quo against the country, which he has no authority to do.

02:02:53.680 And then when Donald Trump says, what's this all about?

02:02:56.680 They say Trump's the one who did something wrong.

02:02:58.320 OK, so two things here.

02:03:00.520 I hear what you're saying.

02:03:01.680 I think you're making a conclusion where there's not evidence you can tell what's in Joe Biden's mind there.

02:03:07.280 But if you're talking about throwing Hunter Biden to the wolves of the Justice Department, I have no issue with that.

02:03:13.680 My problem here, Tim, is I think it's about proportionality, right?

02:03:17.340 It's like I think directionally, if you look at the integrity of the State Department and the processes under Joe Biden, I think directionally, of course, you can find things that you can criticize.

02:03:30.480 But I think it has shown infinitely more integrity than you can find under the Trump administration.

02:03:36.360 I mean, an argument we're talking if we're talking about specifically about the impeachment, then feel free to say everything you want to say.

02:03:41.920 You want to turn the monitor over?

02:03:43.200 Look, you can deny.

02:03:45.000 I just want to say this is a very sloped side because you can put up any clip and demand.

02:03:49.740 Well, yeah, but I mean to it and there's not Hunter Biden called D.C. to get Ukraine prosecutor fired for Burisma, his ex-business partner, free beacon and the free beacon is NewsGuard certified 80 percent.

02:03:59.220 OK, his NewsGuard is NewsGuard not good enough for you.

02:04:03.320 I don't know what NewsGuard is.

02:04:04.780 I typically get my news from New York Times, Washington Post, L.A. Times.

02:04:09.060 So, right. And if the if Devin Archer has testified that this is the case, you can find, say, the lying, the media is fake news.

02:04:17.400 I'll take that. Fine. Sure. Whatever. But at a certain point, how many times do I have to say if Hunter Biden have done?

02:04:22.840 No, it's Joe Biden. It's Joe Biden.

02:04:25.340 And when Donald Trump actually Hunter Biden called D.C. to Ukraine and four days later, Joe Biden flew to Ukraine to get the prosecutor fired.

02:04:34.280 If you're going to be that obtuse, you're not here in good faith.

02:04:37.200 No, I for four four days after Hunter calls and says the prosecutor's shaking us down.

02:04:42.340 Joe Biden goes and threatens to withhold illegally.

02:04:44.940 I might add, congressionally approved loan guarantees.

02:04:47.620 And when we have a president, you can call Donald Trump all the names in the book.

02:04:50.700 You can call him disgusting, lewd, lascivious and corrupt.

02:04:53.020 But if he calls and says, what's going on with this Joe Biden thing?

02:04:56.540 And they say, quick, impeach Donald Trump.

02:04:58.420 I'm sorry. I don't think Trump is the corrupt one in that in that story.

02:05:01.320 I think it's just conspiracy thinking.

02:05:03.380 This is it's a conspiracy that Hunter Biden called D.C. to get the prosecutor fired.

02:05:08.600 And then Joe Biden flew to Ukraine to get the prosecutor fired.

02:05:11.460 Those are facts.

02:05:12.300 Turn down the temperature.

02:05:13.640 We've had a great conversation.

02:05:15.260 Those are facts.

02:05:15.660 Almost two hours.

02:05:16.840 Let's turn down the temperature here.

02:05:19.000 I hear what you're saying.

02:05:20.020 I will look into this and I will happily call into your show.

02:05:23.380 Do whatever you want to do.

02:05:24.220 If you want to have another conversation about this when I've looked into what you're alleging more.

02:05:28.180 I promise I will look into this.

02:05:29.220 I'm not alleging anything.

02:05:30.980 I'm citing news for you.

02:05:33.200 And I showed you a video.

02:05:34.080 I'm going to finish what I'm saying.

02:05:35.600 What I think a problem with your show is.

02:05:38.700 Tim, what I was hoping we could talk about today is how you move from Occupy Wall Street, which one of my critiques of Occupy Wall Street is there was a lot of, I think, I don't want to say conspiratorial thinking.

02:05:55.380 But it was not a productive paradigm of why wealth inequality is where it is in the United States.

02:06:03.660 And I think there is a part of your thinking that falls into false equivalence and to believe there's some huge conspiracy when I don't think that's always here.

02:06:14.680 I think in this particular case, I think you are magnifying a single event and you're coming to the conclusion that because this phone call was made, this is evidence that the Democrats were impeaching Trump in bad faith and that the Democrats are just as corrupt as the Republicans.

02:06:35.700 And we had no good reasons for doing this.

02:06:37.800 And everything Trump did in Ukraine is justified.

02:06:40.900 And I just, I don't think that's a credible argument.

02:06:42.400 Those are a bunch of big leaps.

02:06:44.140 I mean, it's not a conspiracy to say, fact, Hunter Biden called DC to get Ukraine prosecutor fired for Burisma.

02:06:49.540 Fact, Joe Biden then shortly after flew to Ukraine to get the prosecutor fired.

02:06:53.340 Those are facts.

02:06:54.060 Sure.

02:06:54.600 Those are absolute, solidified, knowable facts.

02:06:58.080 Not a conspiracy.

02:06:58.660 I think that one of the issues I have with your show is about proportionality and impact.

02:07:03.720 And I think that generally speaking, you amplify smaller things to fit a narrative that you want to talk about to your audience.

02:07:13.000 Sure, but the president was impeached.

02:07:13.880 This is a good example.

02:07:15.420 A presidential impeachment is a historical event.

02:07:17.500 That's right.

02:07:18.300 And I think most Democrats felt like Nancy Pelosi didn't even want to do this, right?

02:07:22.960 So do you think that it matters that the American people understand the underlying context of what this impeachment was about?

02:07:31.160 I think if the Republicans want to make a case against Joe Biden for this, you know, you've got control of the House.

02:07:38.560 Have your day.

02:07:39.400 It's going to be, hold on.

02:07:40.700 I think it's going to be very difficult to talk about this in a way that's going to make most people think Biden is a fundamentally dishonest person.

02:07:50.600 That is my belief.

02:07:51.300 So I talk about the news and news things that happen.

02:07:54.540 I talk about things that I think are important.

02:07:56.440 I don't make a show with the intent of lowering rent prices or anything like that.

02:08:02.360 Right.

02:08:02.840 So when a historical event happens in the news, such as evidence emerges that Hunter Biden was engaged in business dealings and solicited his father for assistance in removing a prosecutor investigating a company for which he was the board of.

02:08:13.840 Those are exactly the kind of things that I cover.

02:08:15.280 OK, and that's probably why my audience is a lot smaller than, say, the likes of Stephen Crowder or or or I'm assuming to the Young Turks as well.

02:08:24.380 I mean, they're massive.

02:08:25.140 Yeah.

02:08:25.400 Right.

02:08:25.560 They got way more subscribers.

02:08:27.060 Yeah, sure.

02:08:27.460 If I if I came out and just did surface level shot content with a political angle, I probably get way more views.

02:08:34.040 But if we come out and we break down the inner workings of like Matt Taibbi's reports on the investigations into Burisma, we talk about the Qatar Turkey pipeline, the former CIA director who was also on the board of Burisma and the U.S.

02:08:44.040 intelligence operations.

02:08:45.280 That we're we're we're playing a role in in, you know, gas and energy and Europe and stuff like that.

02:08:50.460 Probably a bit esoteric for the average person.

02:08:52.340 Sure.

02:08:52.960 But you also allow Jackson Hinkle onto your show, who, by the way, is not.

02:08:58.600 And you.

02:08:59.580 Hold on.

02:09:00.540 I'm talking about this individual segment with him.

02:09:02.980 You let Jackson Hinkle onto your show, who I looked.

02:09:06.580 He is not registered as a foreign lobbyist in this country, despite the fact that he's out there doing a lot of esoteric talking points that I think a lot of reasonable people would look at his content and have some questions.

02:09:20.360 And he is here is putting a bunch of stuff out there, the most pro Russian argument you could possibly have in a million years.

02:09:30.540 Talking at Russia as if they are strong and powerful and smart and the United States is weak and dumb and fragile.

02:09:38.600 And I watched the whole segment.

02:09:40.960 No other voice, no contesting any of it.

02:09:44.380 And I just think if you're talking about, like, proportionality, I think that looking at what's going on with hostile nation states, I think that, like, you're so quick to believe this stuff about America.

02:09:58.320 It just, it doesn't seem credible to me.

02:10:01.520 I don't understand why you're pulling up a single guest that we just had on the show and not any of the other guests who are in favor of conflict in Ukraine.

02:10:06.620 It is indicative of the argument I have against your show, which is proportionality.

02:10:10.740 That we've hosted one time, one person who is in favor of Russia's conflict?

02:10:14.380 I think that it is indicative of how quickly you are to believe things about this country that I don't think are true.

02:10:21.920 So you're referencing one guest we had one time.

02:10:24.800 Sure.

02:10:25.200 What about the other guests we've had who have been in favor of intervention in Ukraine and support the American perspective and narrative?

02:10:30.580 So, Tim, in preparing for this show, I looked at most of your shows for the last week.

02:10:35.180 I looked at most of your tweets over the last month.

02:10:38.320 And I think directionally, they were far more, they're very pro Trump.

02:10:42.740 They're very anti-justice.

02:10:44.380 Very pro-ending support for Ukraine.

02:10:49.260 And I think this is a common line in your thinking to break up the national security apparatus and to, you know, to the United States is the bad guy, basically.

02:11:00.700 Yeah, the United States is not the bad guy.

02:11:03.120 The bureaucratic state and the intelligence agencies are evil.

02:11:07.520 Sure.

02:11:08.320 Unquestionably.

02:11:09.460 Wow.

02:11:10.580 Unquestionably.

02:11:11.060 Really?

02:11:11.940 Absolutely.

02:11:12.600 Okay.

02:11:12.880 Abject.

02:11:13.540 And, you know, I certainly have spoken.

02:11:15.420 You think officers from the CIA that put their lives on the line, you think they're evil?

02:11:20.500 I think they-

02:11:21.680 To go find terrorists?

02:11:23.060 Is that the oversimplification you're going to say?

02:11:25.160 Well, you say it's evil, like, directionally.

02:11:27.440 You know, do we want to talk about, oh, the senator's name, I'm forgetting, the commission with, like, the heart attack gun.

02:11:36.000 We want to talk about MKUltra.

02:11:37.660 Do we want to talk about the operations against Martin Luther King and Malcolm X?

02:11:41.080 I mean, come on.

02:11:42.140 I don't see it.

02:11:43.560 Directionally.

02:11:45.120 Directionally.

02:11:45.560 We have a constitution, and we have a government of, for, and by the people.

02:11:50.740 What do we have today?

02:11:51.760 I don't know.

02:11:52.240 NSA spying?

02:11:53.460 You think the NSA is not abject evil?

02:11:55.100 No.

02:11:55.460 Look, I remember getting pissed off about Leviathan during the Bush administration.

02:11:59.920 Clapper lying to Congress about NSA spying?

02:12:02.080 I remember they had a mainline into Apple technology and email all across the United States.

02:12:07.920 Edward Stanton brought this out.

02:12:09.400 I fully agree with that.

02:12:11.500 I also think, look, Tim, humans have been slaughtering each other for resources since we were, like, with spheres across the Serengeti.

02:12:21.180 America's a powerful nation.

02:12:23.100 We have enemies.

02:12:23.880 And, of course, we need an intelligence service the way every large nation needs an intelligence service.

02:12:30.360 So why does the FBI-

02:12:31.000 If you don't talk about reform, I'm on board with you.

02:12:33.520 If you're saying they're categorically evil, that's where we part ways.

02:12:36.580 Right.

02:12:36.860 Yeah.

02:12:37.040 So you have the banality of evil.

02:12:39.420 You have the abject.

02:12:41.580 You have, in the FBI, of course, I've met many people who are not evil.

02:12:45.840 They're really good people.

02:12:46.540 Yeah.

02:12:46.940 And what they explain to me is the problems we see in modern politics exists within their ranks the same as any other industry.

02:12:53.980 The problem is, then, you end up with corrupt leadership and a fear to confront them because you will be put on the chopping block.

02:13:00.460 You'll be targeted.

02:13:01.620 Much like many people are scared to speak up of, like, Weinstein.

02:13:04.900 How long did it take for people to finally come out for decades of this guy raping women?

02:13:08.180 Sure.

02:13:08.500 Nobody would speak up about it.

02:13:09.540 And you have these things everywhere.

02:13:11.240 So what ends up happening is, I don't know, how many-

02:13:14.940 Anecdotally, you're let down by the DOJ under Eric Holder.

02:13:20.160 Sure.

02:13:20.660 We are let down currently under Merrick Garland when we've had the bomb squad sent here multiple times.

02:13:25.600 We've had, we were evacuated for three hours once as they did a bomb sweep in the building.

02:13:30.180 We've been swatted 13 times plus the two bomb swatting incidents.

02:13:34.860 We believe we have strong evidence as to who did it, and they will not pursue it.

02:13:39.620 But hey, hey, Bubba Wallace has got a pull rope in his garage, and they'll send 12 agents down.

02:13:44.800 Exactly what happened to me.

02:13:45.900 You had a lady in Alaska who was in D.C. on January 6th, but not in the building, and they raided her home.

02:13:51.820 You have Enrique Tarrio who wasn't even in D.C., and they gave him 22 years.

02:13:56.200 You have a guy who burns down a police station, he gets four years.

02:14:00.000 There is a clear failing going on in terms of equality under the law across the board.

02:14:06.480 I met a woman who was in D.C. on January 6th, was not at the Capitol when any violence happened.

02:14:12.880 Several hours after the violence had halted, she and her husband had walked on the opposite side of the building where the riot was,

02:14:21.260 and they walked up the stairs with no police around, with no barricades.

02:14:24.800 She didn't know what was going on, and she apologized to the federal police, to the Capitol police, and to the court,

02:14:31.680 saying it was a misunderstanding, she didn't know, and they said, we don't care.

02:14:34.840 You were part of a mob, and their sentencing guidelines were 16 months.

02:14:38.660 I have to say, I saw your tweet the other day with the Proud Boys leader that was very correctly thrown,

02:14:45.240 sentenced to a very lengthy sentence.

02:14:47.500 But what did he do?

02:14:48.140 You were going after some...

02:14:49.000 What did he do?

02:14:49.580 Hold on, Tim.

02:14:50.200 Well, no, no, no, you said correctly, now answer that.

02:14:52.000 You were going after...

02:14:52.960 He helped organize this from behind the scenes.

02:14:54.480 Organize what?

02:14:55.840 The insurrection against the Capitol.

02:14:57.100 Did you follow the case?

02:14:58.300 That's not what they've alleged.

02:14:59.180 I can't answer your question.

02:15:01.020 Don't say something...

02:15:02.140 Let me talk to him.

02:15:02.900 They did not allege he organized it behind the scenes.

02:15:06.240 There were messages that were out there of him helping organize this, hyping it up.

02:15:11.000 He was one of the masterminds behind it.

02:15:12.780 Incorrect.

02:15:13.160 According to my understanding of this...

02:15:14.440 Read the story.

02:15:15.380 And then he was thrown in...

02:15:17.460 He was very correctly sentenced because of this.

02:15:19.780 So the part of the story that you hang on to was somebody's tweet where they were admittedly,

02:15:27.600 incorrectly, saying he was actually at the Capitol that day.

02:15:30.960 He was not at the Capitol that day, but he did play a huge organizing role.

02:15:35.840 That's not what they've accused him of.

02:15:36.720 And that was the reason the case was brought to fruition.

02:15:39.720 You need to reread the story.

02:15:40.920 And I think this was the sleight of hand that you consistently do with your audience.

02:15:44.620 You clearly didn't read this.

02:15:46.140 You're incorrect.

02:15:46.880 I think people out there can watch this and make their own assessment.

02:15:49.700 I completely agree.

02:15:50.880 Yeah.

02:15:51.120 The argument was not that he organized it.

02:15:55.540 The argument is substantially broader, and it was actually admitted in court.

02:16:00.300 There was no plan.

02:16:01.660 There was no evidence of a plan.

02:16:03.100 You really...

02:16:03.920 If you didn't read it, why are you giving me that face?

02:16:05.900 Tim, you've got to stop saying I haven't read this stuff.

02:16:08.140 But you didn't.

02:16:09.140 I just read it, come to a different conclusion.

02:16:11.020 No, no, no.

02:16:11.300 It's not a different conclusion.

02:16:12.280 Your facts of the case are incorrect.

02:16:13.560 You think everyone that has a different worldview than you hasn't read everything you've read

02:16:18.440 and come to the same conclusion?

02:16:20.020 No, no, no.

02:16:20.180 I followed this case.

02:16:20.960 I asked you specifically, and you said no.

02:16:23.080 I followed this case very carefully.

02:16:25.540 I read the judge's remarks on it.

02:16:27.100 Okay.

02:16:27.520 And I came...

02:16:28.440 By the way, it was a Trump appointee judge, if I'm not correct.

02:16:31.220 Right?

02:16:31.300 Yeah.

02:16:32.180 Came to the conclusion that, like, look, this looks like a serious court case with very

02:16:36.420 serious problems, and this seems like a just sentence.

02:16:39.080 It was even adjusted down as per the sentencing guidelines.

02:16:42.560 Do you know why Owen Schroyer, what his sentencing, his charging documents, his sentencing documents...

02:16:49.020 Do you believe that the January...

02:16:50.880 The people that planned the insurrection...

02:16:52.640 Who planned it?

02:16:52.960 Like, they don't need to be put in jail?

02:16:54.940 No, no, no.

02:16:55.240 Hold on, hold on.

02:16:55.620 Who planned it?

02:16:57.200 Do you believe that the people that the justice system has found to be...

02:17:02.760 Ah, you see.

02:17:03.420 You changed your question.

02:17:04.780 I'm trying to ask you a question, man.

02:17:06.420 Stop interrupting.

02:17:07.180 Hold on.

02:17:07.280 The people who plan...

02:17:08.000 I'm answering.

02:17:08.200 Do you believe that directionally, the people that have been charged for malfeasance on

02:17:14.620 January 6th, do you think in the totality that these are cases that should be brought

02:17:19.760 to the justice system?

02:17:21.100 The people who planned and carried out January 6th should go to prison.

02:17:25.720 Okay.

02:17:27.060 Now, to say that the government is correct in who they charge is a question of innocent

02:17:31.300 until proven guilty and who you're speaking about specifically.

02:17:33.680 Right.

02:17:33.860 So, for one, I'm not referring to anybody who engaged in active violence.

02:17:41.020 There are...

02:17:41.980 For instance, one guy was acquitted of all charges because there's a video of the police

02:17:45.540 fanning them into the building.

02:17:46.860 Okay.

02:17:47.460 There's a video of the police opening the doors and allowing people into the building,

02:17:50.740 which is why some people got misdemeanor trespass and some people got seditious conspiracy.

02:17:54.580 Right?

02:17:55.600 So, first, I don't trust the government, right?

02:17:58.260 That's the basis of our constitution and how the justice system is supposed to operate.

02:18:03.860 But, uh, when it comes to the Proud Boys, it is definitive they had no plan.

02:18:09.840 And were, uh, this is, I'm telling you about the court case, not my opinion.

02:18:14.780 They said no evidence was presented of a plan in advance.

02:18:19.220 They knew that there was going to be a protest and they went.

02:18:22.800 According to court documents, Enrique Tarrio was not in communication with the Proud Boys

02:18:26.840 during the, uh, riot, the, the, the breaking into of the Capitol.

02:18:30.840 So at some point he said either before anything happened, don't leave.

02:18:36.440 And at some point afterwards, he referred to someone as George Washington.

02:18:41.040 You really sound like you have a soft spot for the people that committed an insurrection

02:18:45.140 against our country.

02:18:46.220 We'll define insurrection.

02:18:47.580 What happened on January 6th, man?

02:18:50.380 But a lot happened on January 6th, right?

02:18:52.580 Like for one, the, so at the, so at the ellipse, there's a speech, right?

02:18:55.500 So Donald, Donald Trump is still speaking when the barricades are torn down.

02:18:59.640 Sure.

02:18:59.840 Was Donald Trump involved in insurrection?

02:19:02.260 I think that this is how I feel about this.

02:19:06.320 So, um, do you think can't, uh, Casey Anthony killed her child?

02:19:10.240 I don't know enough about that case.

02:19:11.540 I do.

02:19:12.080 I think you can look at that situation and come to the conclusion.

02:19:15.280 Like I looked at this and I've come to the conclusion that she probably murdered her baby.

02:19:20.900 As someone who's not followed it and hasn't read it, I defer to you.

02:19:23.840 Sure.

02:19:24.020 But she was found innocent in a court of law.

02:19:27.220 And as far as I'm concerned, you know, the justice system played out.

02:19:31.300 I personally think she did it.

02:19:33.060 Justice was done.

02:19:34.280 The appeals process went through.

02:19:36.360 This was a fine verdict.

02:19:37.920 And in a democracy, sometimes the justice department comes to conclusions I don't agree with.

02:19:42.820 So sometimes in a democracy, the justice department, in my estimation, looked at these cases and came to conclusions.

02:19:52.400 And my reading of the facts, they seem utterly fair and even a little conservative in many cases.

02:19:58.920 You've reached a different conclusion.

02:20:01.380 And the way you feel about it is your judgment and your appraisal of the situation supersedes what the judge and jury in our justice system came up with.

02:20:11.380 That's correct.

02:20:11.780 That's called a...

02:20:12.260 Right.

02:20:12.960 Uh-huh.

02:20:13.260 That's crazy.

02:20:14.040 That's called a political opinion.

02:20:15.560 It happens all the time in this country.

02:20:16.760 You can have the opinion, just like I deal with Casey Anthony, that this was not a great verdict.

02:20:22.180 Right.

02:20:22.560 But I think the difference is you're coming to this wild conclusion that the entire cake is not baked correctly.

02:20:29.800 Wait, wait, wait, what do you mean?

02:20:31.460 When did I say the entire bag is not baked?

02:20:32.780 You seem like you're saying that January 6th, that this should not be prosecuted.

02:20:37.280 And the conclusion I'm getting, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here.

02:20:41.360 The first thing we started with was the people who planned and orchestrated January 6th should be in prison.

02:20:45.480 Sure.

02:20:46.040 Okay, so when did I say otherwise?

02:20:47.120 Well, you're going and like defending all these individual cases.

02:20:50.860 Let's talk about Joe Biggs.

02:20:52.580 Why did he get 19 and a half years?

02:20:54.580 I did not.

02:20:55.060 I don't know.

02:20:56.340 But you said it was just.

02:20:57.300 I think directionally every story I've read about January 6th, to repeat myself, seems like it is a very conservative sentence for what happened.

02:21:08.720 Do you know what the banality of evil is?

02:21:10.820 I know it's a book.

02:21:12.380 It's a reference to the commonplace of evil that happens without thought, typically because people aren't paying attention, don't know what happened, and they just carry on with it.

02:21:20.520 It's typically a reference to how did Germany get so bad, right?

02:21:25.060 You're comparing that to the January 6th insurrectionists?

02:21:31.820 Do you not see how extreme that is?

02:21:33.900 I'm not doing that at all.

02:21:35.480 Okay.

02:21:35.700 That was bad faith.

02:21:37.240 No, I'm saying.

02:21:38.060 I'm asking if you're familiar with the concept of the banality of evil.

02:21:40.540 I understand that.

02:21:41.740 Are you saying that it is evil for me to believe in the Justice Department prosecuting?

02:21:47.560 No, I'm saying that you saying that Joe Biggs, without knowing what he did, deserves two decades in prison.

02:21:53.640 I can't follow every single court case.

02:21:55.900 I have a job.

02:21:56.440 Then when you ask me about Casey Anthony, my response is, I don't know.

02:21:59.240 And I accept that.

02:22:00.100 Then you say, I didn't read anything about Joe Biggs, but he deserves two decades.

02:22:03.860 Do you see the difference?

02:22:04.660 I'm saying, directionally, directionally, my statement to you, which I will repeat, is every single court case I've followed from this makes it seem like the Justice Department has followed an excruciating process.

02:22:16.820 And has given people their fair day in court and has arrived at a situation that seems reasonable to me.

02:22:23.140 So, let's talk about civil liberties and human rights.

02:22:27.300 Okay.

02:22:27.980 Do humans in court cases deserve to be treated as individuals and presumed innocent until proven guilty?

02:22:33.180 Of course.

02:22:35.240 So, let's-

02:22:35.820 Which, by the way, you're not doing with Hunter Biden.

02:22:38.680 What do you-

02:22:39.000 Well, Joe Biden, at least.

02:22:40.240 How am I not doing with Joe Biden?

02:22:41.080 You're reaching conclusions when this has not been adjudicated.

02:22:44.160 Oh, I didn't actually reach a conclusion.

02:22:46.360 I-

02:22:46.640 Eh, I think your audience would probably disagree.

02:22:49.640 So, if Hunter Biden is asked to call D.C., Joe Biden flies out and engages in a quid pro quo, which are facts, what's my conclusion?

02:22:57.280 I think you're trying to suggest to your audience that Joe Biden is corrupt.

02:23:02.220 And the reason for that, that gives Trump a excuse to do what he did in Ukraine.

02:23:07.460 I think that is the plain message that you're giving there.

02:23:10.200 Let's go-

02:23:10.680 And I'll respect that opinion.

02:23:11.800 Sure.

02:23:12.060 Let's talk about Joe Biggs.

02:23:13.340 You don't know what he did.

02:23:14.760 I didn't follow that particular case, no.

02:23:16.840 So, I am telling you, in my opinion-

02:23:20.180 Sure.

02:23:21.380 Supporting an individual going to prison for two decades without knowing what they did is called the banality of evil.

02:23:28.440 It is not that you're an evil person, but that you don't educate yourself on the issue and you carry on with your life and say it's probably okay.

02:23:35.040 My concern is when any person is taken by force and locked in a cage, the government-

02:23:41.500 I'm opposed to death penalty.

02:23:42.880 Sure.

02:23:43.540 Abjectly.

02:23:43.900 And the reason for it is there is no circumstance in which the government can convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that a person should die.

02:23:52.540 And then people say to me, oh, but what about child abusers and molesters and all these awful things and murderers and rapists?

02:23:57.980 And I'm like, listen, a government agent comes to me and says, I can prove to you that guy killed this person and they show me this evidence.

02:24:05.960 And then I have to say to myself, what's the percentage chance this is not correct?

02:24:09.580 There is no circumstance in which I know definitively that this person did these things.

02:24:13.660 However, locking them in a box for the rest of their lives for egregious crimes, at least I'm not signing a death warrant.

02:24:20.980 Now, when it comes to someone, Joe Biggs is a specific example.

02:24:24.640 He was given a terrorism exception or whatever it's called, add-on, because he's seen on camera shaking a metal barricade.

02:24:33.920 And they said this precipitated the tearing down of the barricades, which warrants an extension into terror.

02:24:41.160 That's the extent of what he did.

02:24:43.340 And he's getting two decades in prison.

02:24:44.780 Trying to force him his way over a barricade so people could come in?

02:24:48.580 No, I'm trying to repeat back to you.

02:24:50.480 Shaking a barricade on camera.

02:24:52.420 To break it.

02:24:53.580 Did he?

02:24:54.160 I mean, you're-

02:24:54.820 Was that the intention?

02:24:55.660 You saw the video.

02:24:56.540 What's in his mind?

02:24:57.760 I don't know.

02:24:58.520 Me neither.

02:24:59.000 You saw the video.

02:24:59.520 I'm asking you a question, man.

02:25:00.820 I'm saying I don't know.

02:25:01.820 What I can tell you is he should go to prison.

02:25:04.060 He should not go to prison for 20 years.

02:25:06.480 So-

02:25:07.280 And he's been in for two and a half years already.

02:25:09.880 I kind of think, you know, when I was at Occupy Wall Street and I watched occupiers rip down barricades and punch cops in the face,

02:25:16.980 20 years would be a bit too much for that.

02:25:18.900 Yeah.

02:25:19.140 I do think that there is extenuating circumstances pertaining to the electoral vote count, and that is going to exacerbate the charges.

02:25:27.300 But come on, 20 years?

02:25:29.700 The way I feel-

02:25:30.420 We can't allow that.

02:25:31.140 I think that when January 6th happened, this was, you know, this was the- it was a real event in American history where the peaceful transfer of power was being threatened.

02:25:43.060 And I think if there's any situation for the justice system to take their role extremely seriously and to dole out very harsh punishments, I think it's imperative.

02:25:55.180 Because if you don't crack down on that very aggressively, it makes it far more likely that future elections are not going to result in the peaceful transfer of power.

02:26:04.680 So while not knowing this case specifically, I think directionally, it is incredibly important that we prosecute the people involved in January 6th.

02:26:14.480 Because without peaceful transfer of power, we do not have a country.

02:26:18.520 What about May 29th?

02:26:20.780 What are you talking about?

02:26:21.940 When the far left has set fire to the White House grounds and St. John's Church, rip the barricades down-

02:26:28.460 I'm not going to defend that, of course.

02:26:30.080 Well, right.

02:26:30.620 I mean, so what can we do to make sure that these left-wing activists go to prison for two decades?

02:26:35.560 You're not going to find a tweet for me, like, defending the people of Stop Cop City-

02:26:39.600 I'm not saying defend, I'm saying join me in demanding their prosecution.

02:26:42.480 I'm really enjoying your conversation.

02:26:44.060 I would appreciate if you'd let me finish my points.

02:26:45.780 You're not going to find a tweet for me, like, defending Stop Cop City and the alleged racketeering charges.

02:26:53.600 I want to see this borne out in court.

02:26:55.760 But I think if there's a case to be made about people colluding to destroy equipment and vehicles and things like that,

02:27:03.160 that seems to be something that should be passed.

02:27:05.860 You're not going to find a tweet or a statement for me defending any of the violence of Black Lives Matter.

02:27:12.000 I am for the rule of law.

02:27:13.480 Right, right.

02:27:13.860 So I didn't accuse you of defending it.

02:27:15.640 I'm just making my statement clear to your audience.

02:27:17.960 So in that vein-

02:27:18.860 What about 529?

02:27:19.940 If you can find cases to prosecute from that, I have no issue with the justice system acting very aggressively.

02:27:26.920 So why do you think it is that when leftist activists ripped down the barricades at the White House,

02:27:32.160 set fire to the White House grounds and St. John's Church across the street,

02:27:35.440 we are not getting an inquiry into the-

02:27:37.480 They forced the president into the emergency bunker.

02:27:39.640 The medium called him Bunker Boy.

02:27:41.000 Where is our 529 commission in Congress to figure out what happened when these people tried breaching the White House and nearly destroyed a historic church, the presidential church?

02:27:51.760 So, look, this is just me speculating about this, but one of the things it seems like we found in the aftermath of January 6th is that the procedures at the Capitol for these kinds of events were not where they needed to be,

02:28:05.900 and that we do need cameras and surveillance and law enforcement processes and the mechanisms to bring out the National Guard and things like that.

02:28:14.760 Seems like a lot of things in government, we just probably don't have the infrastructure for that.

02:28:18.780 So if you want to pass a funding bill to create that infrastructure, I would happily support that alongside you.

02:28:24.100 Well, my point is, we have a January 6th commission.

02:28:29.500 Sure.

02:28:29.740 Or, I don't know if they're calling it a commission, but you had the committee.

02:28:33.420 But we've not gotten that in the other direction for the summer of love riots.

02:28:37.580 I think that, you know, you want to put together Republicans to do that.

02:28:41.460 It seems like a political losing issue to me at this point, because it's quite a while ago, but go for it.

02:28:47.380 January 6th was two and a half years ago. They're still raiding.

02:28:49.060 January 6th was terrifying in a way I don't think you're acknowledging.

02:28:54.140 I think you're really minimizing it.

02:28:56.160 When they firebombed the White House grounds and forced the president to a bunker.

02:28:59.460 See, it's all equal to you.

02:29:02.600 You're saying that when people showed up with firebombs and attacked the White House,

02:29:06.300 that was shocking to the soul of this nation in a way we've not seen ever, and you act like it did.

02:29:12.640 I have outright said that what happened on January 6th was egregious and was extenuating circumstances.

02:29:18.320 The people who committed violence should go to prison, and then you're shocked that I'm saying the attack on the White House was in some way comparable.

02:29:24.460 I'm saying, again, it comes back to proportionality, Tim.

02:29:27.480 I think you reached the assessment that you can come up with the example of something happened on another day, and that's equal to January 6th.

02:29:34.520 I didn't say equal.

02:29:35.380 And it comes to the, it leads you, and you're trying to tell your audience to come to the conclusion that January 6th was not as serious as it was.

02:29:43.040 I don't agree with that.

02:29:44.480 I think this is a consistent flaw in your thinking.

02:29:46.560 I'm not saying genuine.

02:29:48.400 Well, I suppose the question is, if you think there was a plan for an insurrection, then you have a very low opinion of these people, which is a fine position to have, considering they didn't really have any structure or plan.

02:30:01.420 I mean, you had Jacob Chansley being escorted by the police into the Senate chambers.

02:30:06.880 They told him what to do.

02:30:08.280 He didn't know what he was doing.

02:30:09.040 You had police in the building taking selfies with people.

02:30:10.920 So, I mean, I think all those cops should be in prison, to be completely honest, especially because, I mean, these are the guys who opened the doors.

02:30:17.480 The people who led Jacob, I think it's like five cops led, you know, the shaman.

02:30:21.200 They led him into the Senate chambers by request.

02:30:23.860 Those cops got to go to prison, and probably for two decades, because that's the standard that we're setting here.

02:30:28.900 Don't you have a little bit of compassion for them if they're in the middle of a riot where they could be killed?

02:30:33.880 Well, you're conflating two different things, though.

02:30:37.180 Cops on one side of the building who are not SWAT, who are not riot, who are opening a door and letting people in, and then tell Jacob Chansley, the shaman, yes, we'll bring you to the chambers.

02:30:49.240 Don't worry about it.

02:30:50.480 They could have told him to leave.

02:30:51.700 He's by himself.

02:30:53.420 I mean, AOC asked this question.

02:30:56.580 She said that there are police who are clearly involved.

02:30:59.660 She's correct.

02:31:00.940 They're on camera.

02:31:02.100 None of them have been charged.

02:31:03.020 Okay, I see.

02:31:04.220 I thought you were talking about cops that were trying to quell the situation and working and being friendly.

02:31:09.500 If you're talking about people that are actually colluding with the rioters, yeah.

02:31:12.560 There was a cop wearing the MAGA hat waving people in.

02:31:14.720 Did you see that?

02:31:15.320 Okay.

02:31:15.600 Now I understand what you're talking about.

02:31:17.380 And they were like, oh, he would—

02:31:18.340 I agree with that.

02:31:18.900 They—I haven't followed that case closely, but they were like, oh, but he was just trying to trick the Trump supporters.

02:31:23.880 I'm like, dude, these cops opened the door and took selfies with people and gave them guided access to where they needed to go.

02:31:29.540 Yeah.

02:31:29.660 So, like, if we're setting a standard, I'm wondering why these people are not being criminally charged.

02:31:34.800 Can we come back to something you were talking about that I really—I think this, again, comes to our difference in philosophy.

02:31:42.400 You said that the CIA—like, so in your mind, what does an intelligence service for the United States look like?

02:31:50.480 How could you do that in a way—because it seems like you don't believe we should have the CIA.

02:31:55.500 Well, I think if you look at the historical examples and even our—I mean, God, our cultural understanding of the things that these organizations have done, you know, I'm not so convinced that we need a banana republic to happen in Nicaragua so that a corporation—

02:32:14.680 No, of course not.

02:32:15.480 You know, but these are the things they do.

02:32:17.060 I'm not so convinced that it is the authority of the United States to decide that oil should not be traded in dinar or euro.

02:32:25.320 But I'm not so naive to think that the world is in an active state of peace at any moment.

02:32:32.540 I mean, the world is in active conflict perpetually.

02:32:35.380 Yeah, it always will be.

02:32:36.640 So the question we have to ask ourselves is, the function of the United States government and the things we view—I'm saying like, you know, me and my friends, more libertarian and anti-war leftist types—we view as abject evil.

02:32:47.720 Do we tolerate these things for, say, the petrodollar?

02:32:51.320 What is the result of the petrodollar?

02:32:53.300 Mass pollution, ocean acidification, mass carbon emissions.

02:32:58.020 If you look at everything we've gotten out of it, I'd say we've quite literally set the world on fire with gluttony, greed, and lust, and we've used a weaponized intelligence apparatus to destroy anyone who opposes it.

02:33:12.380 I can certainly respect the idea that we want to defend America's interests.

02:33:16.100 Sure.

02:33:16.260 But our America's interests, I don't know, multinational corporations pumping out carbon emissions, sending manufacturing overseas to China so they can bypass our regulations, and then acidifying the ocean to the point where we're facing fishery collapse, the Pacific garbage patch.

02:33:32.240 What is being perpetuated by the system is the gutting and destruction of human society outside of just the United States.

02:33:40.520 So, I like that we live in comfort and splendor while producing very little.

02:33:49.220 I enjoy being able to eat avocados in winter and strawberries in winter.

02:33:53.540 The United States has its problems.

02:33:55.160 We've got, like I mentioned, Flint and Pittsburgh and Newark with leaded pipes.

02:33:58.660 Of course, there's always going to be poverty, but oh boy, our poorest people have clean running water they can pick up at a Taco Bell.

02:34:03.620 They've got air conditioning and low-run apartments.

02:34:06.180 Granted, there are very serious problems with the economy as it is today, but only from an American perspective.

02:34:12.320 The question is, should we maintain our standard of living at the expense of the world, the environment, the climate, and the other countries and other people?

02:34:21.400 This is one of the reasons I believe so strongly in the UN and in multilateralism and working with other countries and coming to geostability.

02:34:29.080 Look, I remember when I was a young radical, and by the way, you may not know this about me, I protested the Iraq War so much, I ended up on the terrorist watch list.

02:34:40.360 I felt really, really strongly about that.

02:34:42.960 There was a story about the Bush administration over prosecuting people.

02:34:45.940 I obviously never did anything illegal, but I felt really, really strongly about that.

02:34:50.380 So, obviously, I agree with you, like the things we did in Nicaragua and all these other countries and, you know, securing oil around the world.

02:34:59.700 I think that that, in many ways, has been an abuse of power.

02:35:03.420 I also think you have things like, you know, ISIS and Al Qaeda.

02:35:08.440 You know, one of the successes of the Biden administration has been using our drone program to take these leaders off the battlefield, right?

02:35:14.540 And I do think for a nation like the United States, adults have to look at this and come to the conclusion we do need intelligence agencies out there looking at terrorist cells, looking at the way Russia – here's a good example.

02:35:29.420 When I was running for office, I had to report to the FBI that my emails had been hacked, and we believe Russia was responsible for that, right?

02:35:39.820 It wasn't a government official, but I'm running for an office.

02:35:42.460 You've got to take that seriously.

02:35:43.540 We need agencies to look into this stuff.

02:35:46.100 And I think, again, my critique with your thinking is I think you look at individual instances where I agree with you.

02:35:53.500 There are serious problems, and you conclude the whole thing is just rotten.

02:35:57.620 Which me – so my view is more like the – a police officer or politician engages in corrupt behaviors.

02:36:05.940 Let's say this.

02:36:06.640 Let's say, like, there's a corporate officer at a high level who does something bad, and then the corporation goes, but we can't fire him.

02:36:16.660 He's the only guy who can run system ABC.

02:36:19.700 And so we've got – we'll talk to him, and we'll deal with it internally.

02:36:22.880 At Occupy Wall Street, two people were raped.

02:36:24.840 And the organizer at Occupy said, do not report this.

02:36:28.680 Do not tell anyone.

02:36:30.400 We must take care of it internally.

02:36:32.620 Right.

02:36:32.900 So when the CIA and the FBI do these things, my opinion on all of it is the same.

02:36:36.540 You fire the guy.

02:36:37.720 You fire the corrupt cops.

02:36:39.180 You fire the corrupt agencies.

02:36:41.540 They're being run by corrupt individuals for corrupt reasons.

02:36:44.420 I'm not saying we don't have them at all.

02:36:46.060 I'm saying for the – like, what we have right now, we need to fire these people.

02:36:49.400 But how are you any different than the tankies on my own side?

02:36:53.040 We have a huge problem on the left of these people that are – they get the critique of capitalism dead on.

02:37:01.640 I agree with every single word of it.

02:37:03.620 It's about the rich.

02:37:04.920 They capture governmental systems.

02:37:07.060 They tilt the table for themselves.

02:37:08.940 We don't get policies like universal health care because it's – like, word for word,

02:37:13.840 agree, agree, agree, agree.

02:37:16.340 Just like I'm agreeing with you on all of these systems having these problems.

02:37:21.240 Where I really differ with you is the tankies.

02:37:25.460 You ask them, okay, so you want the revolution where, you know, capitalism is defeated.

02:37:31.900 How do you design something that figures out what drugs we're going to research?

02:37:36.660 How do you figure out domestic – like, how do you figure out a trade policy with other countries

02:37:42.260 and what we import and what we give them as – like, you start asking these granular, like, questions

02:37:49.480 about how their glorious revolution is going to work.

02:37:52.400 Yeah, you say that this is going to benefit women, right?

02:37:55.360 What are the systems in your glorious revolution that are going to guarantee women have a fair shake at the table?

02:38:00.940 And just respectfully, you get nothing credible.

02:38:03.580 Well, I got –

02:38:04.160 It's hand-waved away.

02:38:05.020 I mean, I'm nowhere near that.

02:38:06.080 But I feel –

02:38:06.500 My thing is like, hey, here we go.

02:38:07.960 But I feel –

02:38:08.240 Your answers, your breakdown of it, just fire people.

02:38:11.380 That's not a credible –

02:38:12.780 It is.

02:38:13.180 It's called audit, review, termination, hiring.

02:38:17.460 Who audits – okay, so let's take the CIA, for example.

02:38:20.160 Yeah.

02:38:20.300 Your magical world.

02:38:21.800 Magical world?

02:38:22.780 Okay.

02:38:23.060 There's no oversight for the CIA?

02:38:24.160 Let's say you have a magic wand and can get – make any process you want happen.

02:38:28.180 What is your specific plan for oversight at the CIA?

02:38:32.740 Your – civilian oversight.

02:38:34.620 Okay, what does that look like specifically?

02:38:36.200 You're going to need various individuals, probably multi-partisan.

02:38:40.680 You've got to have libertarians.

02:38:41.740 You've got to have progressives.

02:38:43.380 You've got to have Democrats, Republicans.

02:38:44.200 So you're talking about oversight board?

02:38:45.480 Who appoints them?

02:38:46.280 Oversight board would probably be appointed through Congress or state representatives.

02:38:51.680 What we would probably want to do is keep it to the state level because we need more state-level involvement in federal government, considering the federal government is mostly people who know each other.

02:39:02.760 You want Mississippi to have a vote over what the CIA does?

02:39:06.620 That's how it works.

02:39:07.940 Mississippi sends representatives to Congress who then vote on things.

02:39:10.340 So my view is the state should say we also will appoint a representative for our intelligence oversight review to report back to us and probably function outside of Congress because we want to make sure that we've got – akin to like a special prosecutor, right?

02:39:28.840 So the real issue is –

02:39:30.340 So hold on.

02:39:30.920 I just want to repeat this back to you.

02:39:32.580 So your vision for oversight at the CIA is we have an oversight board of civilians that are appointed by every single one of the states in the United States.

02:39:44.020 I don't know about every single state.

02:39:46.400 And I think getting into like the can you build me an architecture for a plan right now to deal with CIA corruption is a bit disingenuous.

02:39:53.580 I'm trying to understand your thinking.

02:39:54.540 It's not –

02:39:55.140 Right.

02:39:55.320 So I'll give you a broad view.

02:39:56.480 Civilian problem.

02:39:57.040 Civilian oversight through state legislator level cooperation to assess whether or not in our name we are actively actually being represented, which would be akin to kind of like a special prosecutor version of a legislative review specifically for the intelligence agencies.

02:40:11.120 We would then determine whether or not – or I should say my assumption is we are going to clean house and restructure.

02:40:19.680 Okay.

02:40:20.120 And we do that through auditing the system.

02:40:22.140 Probably the best way to do it is a special legislative session with people who are outside of Congress.

02:40:28.320 So the federal government would go and set up an audit for the CIA in your view?

02:40:33.720 Well, so what we would probably have to do is have Congress.

02:40:39.280 Congress would have to vote for a special panel comprised of state delegates or representatives to oversee actions of the CIA, internal documents.

02:40:51.260 Obviously, they're going to need clearance.

02:40:52.920 It's going to be classified, things like that.

02:40:54.600 Then we figure out how to deal with the problems we uncover.

02:41:01.360 Right now, when we look at like Republicans' house oversight, it's – I mean, you look at the people who are in the SCIF and the people who are on these panels.

02:41:10.440 They're working alongside the intelligence agencies.

02:41:12.440 So we're not getting an independent review of what they're doing.

02:41:14.220 Yeah, I think one of the really good arguments to expand Congress and have more representatives there is the population of the United States has grown so much.

02:41:23.140 We need more people to serve on more committees.

02:41:26.280 I wonder if we need like regional Congress.

02:41:29.180 You know what I mean?

02:41:30.120 Like the challenge we're facing is that we are just increasing the amount of people a member of Congress represents.

02:41:35.840 So it's becoming ineffective.

02:41:36.980 It seems to me that if you're talking about oversight for the CIA, you're talking about getting state-level control, that seems to be a recipe for a cluster F as far as not being able to decide anything.

02:41:49.140 Like it seems like that's going to get political really fast.

02:41:52.200 Yeah, absolutely.

02:41:53.040 You know –

02:41:53.620 I mean, or we can go the magical route and say Trump go in and just abolish.

02:41:57.700 I mean, I think what the FBI was created by executive order.

02:42:00.560 Yeah, just executive order, they're gone.

02:42:02.040 Or we can go the hard way and say it's got to be outside Congress.

02:42:07.640 They've been ineffective and we need an audit and oversight.

02:42:10.640 I don't agree with you.

02:42:11.340 It's been ineffective.

02:42:12.780 I think it's been completely ineffective.

02:42:14.580 As to cite the humor of we know the CIA was doing horrible things in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s.

02:42:22.560 There's been no reform and we're going to assume they're doing everything right now.

02:42:24.960 There have been panels on the intelligence failures after 9-11, which I very strongly agreed that was the kind of board you're talking about.

02:42:33.540 Oversight, looking at the processes, writing a public report, and people restructuring things in the aftermath of that.

02:42:40.180 I think, to be completely honest, like my hope for civilian oversight reform and auditing is probably the real magical thinking.

02:42:47.220 Because that's something that nothing ever changes.

02:42:48.660 And it's not a question of whether I like what's going on or don't like what's going on.

02:42:52.920 It's an issue of public sentiment is growing further and further enraged.

02:42:58.540 But I think it feels that way because of respectfully shows like yours.

02:43:05.240 It feels that way because people are unsatisfied when the news comes out.

02:43:10.920 I mean, it's a question of gas prices.

02:43:13.640 Don't you think social media just tells us to have the most reactive, emotional aversion of ourselves, getting angry at everything?

02:43:20.380 Yeah, I think it's insane for anybody who's involved in politics.

02:43:24.980 I think they're not playing a role in the greater scheme of the fire maelstrom.

02:43:29.080 Sure.

02:43:29.460 I certainly think we are closer to the solution than the problem with what we do at Timcast.

02:43:34.640 I would love to say that.

02:43:45.100 Well, I mean, a few simple examples is every time we bring on someone from the left, they get my positions on abortion and taxation incorrect.

02:43:53.060 They get my position on the election incorrect.

02:43:55.760 So if your assumption is that I support a fraud narrative, you are getting fake news from somebody.

02:44:00.860 I feel like I'm on repeat here.

02:44:03.380 My critique of your show, I don't think you're a bad person, Tim.

02:44:07.520 I've really enjoyed this conversation.

02:44:09.800 My critique of your show is I think you focus on things to a disproportionate amount to the impact that they have on people's lives.

02:44:18.860 I think you inflame situations with a lot of very personal rhetoric in a way that undermines the ability of our country to solve problems and move forward together.

02:44:29.480 You're entitled to your opinion.

02:44:30.780 Thank you.

02:44:31.500 Yeah, that's about it.

02:44:32.420 I think that my response is one of the reasons we can't solve the problems in this country and we're dealing with massive multinational pharmaceutical corporations that are gutting, not just pharmaceuticals, but all of them gutting, ripping, exploiting, destroying.

02:44:47.080 The reason why we get things like the housing crisis, the reason why we get things like the student debt crisis is because the average person does not pay attention to who's in charge of their country, who's being appointed.

02:44:59.980 They take things immediately at face value and wolves in sheep's clothing are guiding them to the slaughter.

02:45:06.600 So my critique for you is your rejection of blatantly reported facts as conspiracy theory for tribal reasons.

02:45:15.520 It's not rejection.

02:45:15.940 I'm saying I need to read more about this and I'm happy to come back on and have a conversation.

02:45:21.040 So then outside of you personally, we had the example I have to give is Hunter Avalon.

02:45:26.800 I don't know what he's doing, but he said the exact same thing.

02:45:29.120 In fact, every single, aside from destiny, every single left wing person we've brought on to ask them about the Burisma scandal has said, I did not know Joe Biden said that.

02:45:37.880 And that's fine if you don't, but it is worrisome to me that our position typically here is if I don't know, I don't know if I do know, I'll tell you.

02:45:47.620 But the position we find from those on the left is I don't know, but I think I'm right anyway.

02:45:51.520 I don't think I've said that today.

02:45:53.020 Well, the example I'll give is you thought what happened with the impeachment of Donald Trump in Ukraine with Ukraine was correct without knowing the finer details of who was involved.

02:46:01.840 Why were they were involved?

02:46:02.600 Tim, I think one of the things, again, you know, I don't need to get through this again.

02:46:09.560 I think that I looked at that situation at the time.

02:46:12.580 I came to the conclusion it is, it was a just outcome at the time.

02:46:18.020 I think it's not a burr in my sandal in the same way it is yours.

02:46:22.540 And I think if you had asked me back then, I would probably have more specifics to give you feedback on today.

02:46:27.420 What I would suggest, if you want to have a conversation about specific things, have Lisa write out to me, say what you want us to talk about.

02:46:36.620 I'll do all the research.

02:46:37.800 I'll watch all the right-wing clips you want, and I will have a conversation in good faith about that.

02:46:43.800 It's difficult.

02:46:44.960 It's not a question of fact.

02:46:46.040 This is my own, this is something I have found frustrating as I try to enter right-wing spaces and have good faith conversations.

02:46:54.760 Y'all do have your own cinematic universe, and it's difficult for someone who reads the New York Times and Washington Post to catch up on, like, you have a sense of the specifics, but there's individual things that y'all are really angry about.

02:47:11.220 And I just have not followed the storyline that much.

02:47:13.600 So it's not a question of, do you know this individual story?

02:47:16.300 My point here is, you've taken a political position without knowing what the story is.

02:47:20.960 I'm not talking about one story.

02:47:22.340 I'm saying, what we typically experience is, as you asked me about Casey Anthony, I don't know enough about it to comment.

02:47:27.840 Yeah.

02:47:28.220 And then every Democrat personality I've spoken to says, I believe in X, but I don't know what you're talking about.

02:47:35.640 I don't think that's a conversation.

02:47:36.540 A really great example is Bill Maher.

02:47:39.040 Dennis Prager goes on Bill Maher's show, I think this was 2018 or 19.

02:47:42.820 And he said, they're putting tampons in men's bathrooms.

02:47:47.440 And he said, this is, you know, this is not, this is a lie.

02:47:51.120 And they're saying this.

02:47:51.780 Bill Maher and the entire audience response was to laugh and say it wasn't happening.

02:47:55.240 Instead of saying, I don't know what you're talking about.

02:47:58.540 So it seems weird.

02:48:00.140 Instead, they laugh and they dismiss.

02:48:02.260 And then later Bill Maher was like, oh, yeah, well, you know, they were doing that.

02:48:06.000 I guess we should have read more.

02:48:07.140 I think it's really, I think it's really easy to come to the conclusion everyone is stupid.

02:48:14.600 And you're right.

02:48:16.060 If you can just like pop any article in front of them and assume they have not read it.

02:48:21.400 And if they don't know everything in the article, then they're dumb and they're dishonest.

02:48:26.620 Doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.

02:48:28.620 But it's, it's the conclusion I'm coming to.

02:48:30.980 I, I asked you if you've read it, right?

02:48:34.620 And if you say no, my responses.

02:48:36.960 I said, I followed the story at the time.

02:48:39.980 There's specifics.

02:48:40.620 But I understand that you're not understanding.

02:48:42.700 I'm trying to.

02:48:43.480 What I'm saying is I did not come out and say, ha ha, I know for a fact you didn't read this.

02:48:47.620 I said, are you familiar with this story?

02:48:49.420 Are you familiar with these details?

02:48:51.260 You're not.

02:48:52.040 Okay, let me say them.

02:48:53.220 Your response was rejection of these and said I was a conspiracy theorist for making assumptions about it.

02:48:57.520 That's not what I said.

02:48:59.060 I said, oh god damn.

02:49:00.960 Tim, this is not productive.

02:49:03.140 It's just not.

02:49:04.020 Right.

02:49:04.420 So my point does not need to circle around anything related to Ukraine.

02:49:08.680 It is one side appears to take positions collectively and one side tends to take positions individually.

02:49:18.440 There is a video out there called Tim Pool Fence Sitter, which as I understand it, you enjoy.

02:49:23.940 And it talks about your tendency towards looking at two things and to conclude that it's an example, like it's all equal and it somehow all ends up in supporting the right wing.

02:49:38.380 I think it's a consistency in your thinking.

02:49:41.300 I think it's the reason you get so much critique from the left and I think you've evidenced that very strongly today.

02:49:48.460 I think you're referring to out-of-context clips with the intention of generating rage bait.

02:49:54.420 I'm not trying to do that.

02:49:55.760 I'm talking about it.

02:49:55.900 But that's what you're talking about.

02:49:57.080 I mean like, you know, to come in and be like, will you say there was no fraud?

02:50:01.520 I'm like, are you kidding?

02:50:02.200 I said that November 7th.

02:50:03.160 Sure.

02:50:03.380 I said that November 9th.

02:50:05.280 I argue with Steve Bannon on this show three times.

02:50:08.520 Do you notice how often you turn the conversation to you as a person?

02:50:13.680 I'm trying to talk about public policy.

02:50:14.700 You brought me up.

02:50:15.020 You said there was a video about me and I responded to it.

02:50:17.460 My question is, do you realize how often you turn the conversation to you and what you believe?

02:50:21.780 You said a video about me came up that exemplified my behavior to which I responded before I was talking about the news.

02:50:28.200 Why did you start talking about me?

02:50:30.160 Because we, I don't even remember.

02:50:32.060 I'm trying to talk about policy and politicians and you keep talking about me.

02:50:35.980 You're talking about leftists as if we're intellectually dishonest.

02:50:39.280 I don't think we are.

02:50:40.220 No, I said collective approaches to news story assessments versus an individual assessment.

02:50:45.340 Do you really think there are no leftists out there?

02:50:47.600 They're really serious about getting their facts straight.

02:50:50.300 They don't read this stuff really seriously.

02:50:52.740 Your statement to me was leftists.

02:50:55.580 You cannot find a single leftist that will come onto this show and understands this stuff.

02:51:00.740 And the conclusion you're telling your audience to draw is if somehow we're stupid or intellectually dishonest.

02:51:07.040 I mean, it's just, it's crazy, man.

02:51:09.000 Taking a collective approach to a news story without having read it.

02:51:11.460 What does a collective approach mean?

02:51:13.580 Your assessment that the general direction of January 6th was good despite not knowing the granular cases.

02:51:18.100 I can't name every article.

02:51:20.980 I'm not arguing with you.

02:51:22.000 I could sit here today and talk about Final Fantasy VIII and the minutia.

02:51:24.940 I'm not arguing with you that you should or shouldn't.

02:51:27.220 And the minutia of the systems there.

02:51:29.060 I could go, oh, Tim has never played Final Fantasy VIII.

02:51:31.980 He doesn't know this.

02:51:33.200 We know different things.

02:51:34.660 We've read different articles.

02:51:36.080 It is intellectually dishonest to paint me out as if I've not followed these events when I have.

02:51:42.180 So, okay, I asked you about Joe Biggs.

02:51:44.600 You said you didn't follow it.

02:51:45.660 That is correct.

02:51:46.340 Okay, so my response is...

02:51:47.460 And your critique was leftists don't admit when they have not read something.

02:51:50.280 My response is you have taken an assessment of the matter as good without knowing the granular.

02:51:55.760 That's not an opinion or disrespectful.

02:51:58.280 That's not me trying to dig you.

02:51:59.640 I'm saying your view of the situation is a holistic collective view.

02:52:03.940 Okay.

02:52:04.440 This is the big story.

02:52:06.200 It is typically good.

02:52:08.040 My approach is here are these individual moments where things are unjust.

02:52:12.560 And so there's a holistic collective view of what the news story is versus individual and granular.

02:52:18.240 That is not to say you did anything wrong.

02:52:19.660 I hear what you're saying.

02:52:20.700 Yeah.

02:52:21.040 I'd like to move this to a more productive direction.

02:52:25.340 I wanted to ask you today, are there any bipartisan issues or subjects?

02:52:30.480 Like you claim you're a centrist or you're in the middle, you're not a right winger.

02:52:34.760 I wanted to ask you today, like, are there any issues that you feel really passionate about

02:52:40.220 that you think the left and the right could agree on that you would ask your audience to support?

02:52:44.740 Making it illegal for members of Congress and maybe even expanding that beyond just Congress to do stock trading.

02:52:51.820 Yeah.

02:52:52.200 Stock trading and EFT and all that stuff.

02:52:54.580 Great idea.

02:52:54.920 I think we completely agree on that.

02:52:55.960 There are some things that I think we should agree on, but I'm not sure we do.

02:53:00.420 Some progressives are in favor of nuclear power, but I think nuclear energy is the path towards reducing carbon emissions and helping America become more energy independent and being cleaner.

02:53:09.220 That's one I'm in favor of a reforming the tax system.

02:53:15.600 I think we need to lower tax on the lower end and increase it on the higher end, which would be overly simplified to say tax the rich.

02:53:20.800 I'm probably a little bit closer to Steve Bannon, but Steve Bannon goes into the wealth tax stuff, which is repressive and oppressive.

02:53:27.920 I think it goes too far.

02:53:30.500 So I think there's compromise in abortion because I fall in the pro-choice but more traditional pro-choice camp, which was like, you know, at the point of viability, there's no reason to kill the baby if it can survive on its own.

02:53:44.340 So that's typically where I draw the line.

02:53:46.880 But when it comes to questions of an individual having a medical issue, I don't like the idea of a government regulation form or something to justify it.

02:53:53.740 However, we typically find that in the more prominent spaces, if you say I'll walk up to like Eric Adams as a video, I think it was – I'm not sure.

02:54:01.540 It might have been a lot.

02:54:01.980 I saw that video.

02:54:03.080 That was – wow.

02:54:04.800 But it's not just Adams.

02:54:05.940 It's Newsom.

02:54:06.680 It's the prominent Democrats saying there should be no restrictions at all.

02:54:10.020 Do you think so?

02:54:11.680 What elected Democrat believes there should be no restrictions at all?

02:54:15.240 The Eric Adams video you're talking about, he was lamenting.

02:54:17.100 What's her name?

02:54:17.380 Kathy Tran.

02:54:19.560 Virginia State Senate who proposed the bill that was in –

02:54:23.020 Proposed a bill.

02:54:24.400 Someone in a state Senate proposed that.

02:54:26.160 And then I think I got struck down because – I think I got struck down because she was questioned as –

02:54:31.100 Do you really think Democrats directionally don't believe in border control here in the United States?

02:54:38.040 I certainly do.

02:54:39.260 Well, it depends on how you define it.

02:54:40.340 It's not a national security issue.

02:54:41.480 It depends on how you define it, right?

02:54:42.800 So –

02:54:43.040 How do you want to define it?

02:54:44.560 So we're talking about gradients.

02:54:45.780 We're not talking about absolutes.

02:54:46.540 We're talking about – the left will say it's not as big of a deal.

02:54:50.280 Or I should – the culture war.

02:54:51.680 I mean, now Eric Adams is saying it's destroying New York City.

02:54:54.120 So it's –

02:54:55.160 I'm not a big Eric Adams fan.

02:54:56.980 But I think –

02:54:57.120 But you have sanctuary state policies in California.

02:55:00.180 In Massachusetts where I'm from, yeah.

02:55:01.840 And then what happens is it's not a priority until it's made a priority for them.

02:55:06.180 Sure.

02:55:07.160 So yeah, they care about it now.

02:55:09.500 Texas and Florida and Arizona have been sending the migrants to their states.

02:55:11.920 I think there is a right-wing lie out there that characterizes the left and Democrats in general as not caring about border control policy.

02:55:20.460 I'm old enough to remember at the end of the Bush administration, there was an incident where someone was trying to bring a dirty bomb and smuggle it across the border.

02:55:28.460 And thank God we caught that.

02:55:31.560 That could have been a radiological disaster.

02:55:34.080 It is obviously national security policy.

02:55:36.680 It is our economic policy with people smuggling goods into the United States that shouldn't be here.

02:55:42.700 It is such an important issue.

02:55:46.520 And I do believe in a pathway to citizenship and DACA and things like that.

02:55:51.560 But I think it makes sense to take a hard look at – to increase the policies, increase the security of how people get into this country.

02:56:00.560 Yeah.

02:56:00.660 And I think most mainstream Democrats agree with me.

02:56:03.960 Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, they were all in favor of building what they described as a border barrier.

02:56:09.660 Yeah.

02:56:09.860 And then I think when you get into the culture war element of the media, it becomes polarized.

02:56:17.700 But Joe Biden – Benny Johnson just reported this – Joe Biden is expanding the border wall.

02:56:22.600 They've spent a decent amount of money.

02:56:24.320 I don't know to what degree, but there's two stories simultaneously.

02:56:27.680 One is where there are certain fences that were left open and people are just walking through.

02:56:31.700 Yeah.

02:56:32.360 And there's another story from Benny where they've actually reinforced some areas.

02:56:35.420 I think for hyper-partisan reasons, people are just picking the – it's like they're focusing on one element of it and ignoring the other part of it.

02:56:42.860 Yeah.

02:56:43.180 I think now with Eric Adams coming out saying, this will destroy us, and he's freaking out over it.

02:56:49.360 Yeah, I think people are certainly starting to recognize that your mainstream Democrat is growing concerned about the immigration crisis.

02:56:56.260 Well, I wouldn't call him a mainstream Democrat.

02:56:58.460 But I think –

02:56:58.940 Like New York.

02:56:59.760 This is – one of the things I've found, Tim, and this is the longer I'm in my job.

02:57:04.200 And I just want your audience to notice that when we're sitting down talking about policy, it's a much different conversation than you haven't read this news story, and this is why I feel about you because of that.

02:57:13.900 But one of the things I've discovered about policy is it's impossible for someone to have a comprehensive knowledge of every single area of policy.

02:57:23.580 Our disability policy and how we figure out who gets Social Security and how they qualify for it and what the court system process is for that, for deciding if you get a stipend if you're an adult with a disability, is so complicated.

02:57:40.560 And it's this whole world I had no idea about until, you know, I ran for office.

02:57:45.860 And, you know, I think with – if you're talking about immigration policy at the border, I am sure that if you brought someone in that was an intelligent person that really could answer some damn questions, like how do we stop radiological material from going across the border?

02:58:01.340 Where are all the people coming?

02:58:02.780 Like how is New York having – what did Eric Adams say?

02:58:05.320 12,000 people a month coming in?

02:58:07.560 How is that happening?

02:58:09.480 Like I think if you start to understand those problems, I think that you can find smart people in government that are committed to solving it.

02:58:18.720 So we've gone way over, but I do want to ask just one final question.

02:58:23.340 January 6th was really bad.

02:58:25.020 You described it as an insurrection.

02:58:26.640 Yeah.

02:58:27.500 CNN right now shows Trump polling above Joe Biden.

02:58:30.720 And right now the general assessment from analysts and politicos is that while it is nearly a statistical tie, Trump has the edge.

02:58:39.460 Joe Biden's favorability is down.

02:58:41.300 There's currently efforts in – there's a debate in New Hampshire, which may have been resolved, a lawsuit in Florida.

02:58:47.160 There's a debate in Arizona, may have been resolved, and now a lawsuit in Colorado to remove Trump's name from the ballot.

02:58:52.220 Yeah.

02:58:52.740 There are procedural efforts being taken place under the argument that Trump tried to overthrow the government.

02:58:58.680 I'm curious what you think happens if Trump wins or loses.

02:59:04.340 So I was saying this on Twitter.

02:59:06.460 I got a lot of backlash from leftist Twitter.

02:59:09.380 I'm not a lawyer, but I think like my gut instinct is telling me that if you are trying to keep someone off the ballot, that I think just the gut reaction from a lot of people, I think it feels kind of dirty and dishonest to a lot of people.

02:59:28.680 So I'm sure there's an excellent constitutional case for this, but I have a long way to go before I personally believe this is a really good idea.

02:59:41.760 And, you know, I can't remember who was talking about this.

02:59:46.720 Was it George Conway?

02:59:48.620 Somebody was talking about how imagine we woke up on 2024 and the reason that Trump lost, if he is the nominee, is because he couldn't get on the ballot in one of these states.

03:00:00.860 I think if you're trying to turn the temperature down in a democracy and make people believe in the rule of law, I think that my friends are discounting how this is going to impact people.

03:00:15.860 You know, I think the difference between the Justice Department bringing cases against Trump when there's a lot of evidence for it, I think that's a very different situation than someone who can bring a lawsuit or not bring a lawsuit choosing to do that.

03:00:31.540 If is it is it fair to say your view is that Trump tried to overthrow the seat of power or that's how it's been described in the media.

03:00:38.100 You can't say it for sure until he's convicted in one of these cases.

03:00:41.980 I think there's ample evidence to bring a court case.

03:00:44.560 But January 6th was an insurrection.

03:00:46.100 Yeah.

03:00:46.640 So what do you think happens if Trump loses?

03:00:48.920 These people, in your view, have already waged insurrection.

03:00:51.720 Sure.

03:00:51.960 Do you think they simply just say, well, you know, good game?

03:00:55.040 I think that what you and I both have a responsibility to do is to calm the temperature down.

03:01:01.700 And I think we've got to double down on democracy and the rule of law and making people like correcting the flaws in our system in a non-inflammatory way and to treasure our democracy.

03:01:15.300 Again, we've had a peaceful transfer of power for 200 years in this country.

03:01:20.060 I agree.

03:01:20.540 But my question is not what we should do because I agree with you.

03:01:22.820 But what do you think these people as if right now today we have the election?

03:01:27.280 Sure.

03:01:27.700 Trump's name.

03:01:28.400 Let's say it's removed from one state.

03:01:30.120 Yeah.

03:01:30.260 Do you think these people continue the pattern of behavior that they engaged in on January 6th?

03:01:35.160 I think there are a certain number of people out there that are going to engage in domestic terrorism.

03:01:39.120 I do.

03:01:41.260 What do we do as a country if that starts?

03:01:44.280 I think they're going to meet their fate in a court of law.

03:01:48.720 But I think the way to avoid that happening is to turn down the rhetoric.

03:01:54.440 So we've consistently maintained.

03:01:56.920 When you look at all of the cultural endeavors that are taking place and the victories that the right is actually gaining, the stupidest thing anyone can do is any kind of violence, any kind of riot.

03:02:07.300 I mean, right now, the best path forward is knocking on doors and just leafleting.

03:02:12.200 Trump lost 2020 by only 42,000 votes, despite the fact that the popular vote was skewed pretty heavily.

03:02:18.160 It was three swing states that totaled 42,000.

03:02:20.840 Trump won by 77.

03:02:22.140 It's close.

03:02:22.940 So the opportunity for people on the right who are upset is to stop thinking you can't win.

03:02:30.560 Start realizing you almost did twice and you can win again.

03:02:33.580 We won in Georgia.

03:02:34.200 I personally ran ads in Georgia, like just Trump's statements don't vote.

03:02:41.660 I put that out to everyone out there.

03:02:43.940 We could.

03:02:44.540 It was a wildly effective message.

03:02:46.420 Yep, it was his, you know, and so my concern, however, is when you look at 2016, they accused Trump of being a Russian spy.

03:02:56.420 Jonathan Chait actually went on MSNBC and said maybe the Soviet going back to the Soviet era, Trump may have been secretly colluding with the KGB or something like that.

03:03:03.240 And it resulted in a 30 plus million dollar investigation and restrictions placed on, to a certain degree, legal but also political, what Trump could or couldn't do.

03:03:14.120 These were false.

03:03:15.240 It was shockingly absurd and it was devastating to the confidence in our country that, you know, with the Clinton's funding of the Steele dossier and these other fictitious political attacks,

03:03:26.300 because the Democrats tend to play things like rogues and Republicans tend to play things like warriors or fighters, brawlers.

03:03:34.940 Rogues? What do you mean specifically by that?

03:03:37.180 A charismatic and charming perceptive individual who figures out how the system works so they can persuade you into the actions.

03:03:42.960 How did Bush win again in 2000? Can you remind me of that?

03:03:45.660 Brute force.

03:03:47.460 Legal tricks in Florida, specifically Dane County.

03:03:50.700 I'm saying just as of right now, if you look at 2016, what did you get?

03:03:54.540 The Democrats used perception, persuasion, deception.

03:03:59.980 January 6th is brute force, right?

03:04:03.960 I don't follow what you're saying at all.

03:04:05.880 I apologize.

03:04:06.120 Trump is not a Russian agent.

03:04:08.940 I think Trump...

03:04:10.260 That's been adjudicated. He's not.

03:04:13.520 Trump is someone who is so full of himself.

03:04:17.340 You know, there are these stories of Vladimir Putin.

03:04:19.960 He has no respect for Donald Trump.

03:04:22.300 He doesn't like this guy.

03:04:23.840 He thinks he's an idiot.

03:04:25.140 There are stories of him deliberately bringing, like, young, beautiful Russian translators to meetings with Vladimir Putin.

03:04:34.120 And then Trump is all horned up and staring at the woman the whole time.

03:04:37.940 And Vladimir Putin is laughing about that.

03:04:40.240 Sure.

03:04:40.800 We adjudicated this.

03:04:42.060 We investigated this.

03:04:42.980 There's no evidence that Donald Trump was secretly including with Russia.

03:04:46.020 Many of these stories were outright incorrect.

03:04:47.620 It's not Trump is saying they're taking bribes for Russia.

03:04:51.000 It's saying he's a useful idiot for the Kremlin.

03:04:53.340 Right.

03:04:53.800 The accusation made with, like, Alpha Bank, for instance, fake story, fake news, that Donald Trump was secretly engaged in transactions.

03:05:01.660 This is the roguish way to weigh down, block up, or, you know, insurrect, as you were.

03:05:11.000 Tim, there are serious people that care about national security in this country and our foreign policy and geostability worldwide.

03:05:19.300 That believe in NATO, that are looking at Donald Trump's closeness to Vladimir Putin.

03:05:27.160 And when he came out-

03:05:28.060 But this is not my point.

03:05:28.600 Hold on, hold on.

03:05:29.160 But you're doing it.

03:05:30.040 When he came out when he came out and said, I believe Vladimir Putin more than our own intelligence agencies.

03:05:37.340 That is a very serious situation.

03:05:40.520 And there are people that are worried about Trump's ties to Russia.

03:05:43.420 And the story emerged in the campaign in 2015.

03:05:46.580 It was fake.

03:05:47.300 We know it was fake.

03:05:48.200 It was investigated.

03:05:49.020 It's not true.

03:05:49.780 And people won awards for it.

03:05:51.380 They put a special prosecutor in place.

03:05:53.500 Tens of millions of dollars were spent.

03:05:54.920 And it was muddled nonsense.

03:05:56.040 In fact, you ended up, like Michael Flynn, for instance, his lying to the FBI is psychotic.

03:06:02.260 I mean, the degree of corruption.

03:06:04.340 He wasn't even under investigation, nor in a formal interview.

03:06:07.260 You think Michael Flynn is honest?

03:06:09.060 Really?

03:06:09.740 Michael Flynn, in his prosecution, I'm not speaking about anything else.

03:06:14.420 He was in an informal discussion where he answered some questions off the cuff, and they accused him of lying and threatened to arrest him.

03:06:19.340 We know that, I think it was Kevin Clinesmith, fabricated evidence, manipulated to get Papadopoulos investigated.

03:06:24.320 These things are serious degrees of corruption that need to be investigated.

03:06:29.340 I think Clinesmith got in trouble.

03:06:30.520 I'm not sure exactly what happened, though.

03:06:31.800 I think there's every reason for Americans to be concerned about the degree to which Russia seems to be aligned with the degree to which people in the Republican Party seem to have taken up Kremlin talking points.

03:06:46.900 I think the best case scenario is Russia has been very effective in bringing people onto their side just by connecting with them.

03:06:56.060 I think the worst case scenario is I think we have traitors in the United States.

03:06:59.720 I mean, that's probably true at any point in history.

03:07:03.020 There's people who get caught selling.

03:07:04.880 There was like a couple just got caught selling nuclear secrets or something.

03:07:08.160 But my point is not to get into the nitty gritty of Russia.

03:07:10.880 It's that there is no acceptance by the Democrats or the Republicans of the outcome of the election.

03:07:16.720 I accepted it.

03:07:17.840 If Donald Trump, so when Donald Trump won, no, we had, I'm not speaking for you, I'm saying we had years of coverage of Trump being a secret Russian spy.

03:07:27.700 After Donald Trump loses, we get the fraud narrative.

03:07:31.140 We get storming of the Capitol.

03:07:33.240 You get these claims that Trump's secretly president and the weirdest things.

03:07:37.320 I don't see how after 2024, no matter what happens, you're going to have people accepting if Trump wins.

03:07:44.480 I mean, you had in the Boston Globe, it was reported that prominent Democrats and Republicans came together for a war game.

03:07:50.020 Are you familiar with this one, this story?

03:07:51.480 And the suggestion was to the Democrats that if Donald Trump doesn't cede policy, they actually secede Western states from the union.

03:08:00.300 This was the this was the game played by them.

03:08:02.820 I'm shocked they would say such a thing to the Boston Globe.

03:08:05.600 So with those things being taken into consideration, if Trump wins, I don't see I don't see things being procedurally sound.

03:08:14.400 If Trump loses, I don't see the people who stormed the Capitol on January 6th simply being like, good game, guys.

03:08:19.940 In what what scenario do the people who stormed the Capitol decide, OK, this time around, everything's fine.

03:08:28.820 We agree they're going to be domestic terrorists.

03:08:31.160 There's two things here.

03:08:32.120 This is what we're again coming back to.

03:08:34.000 You look at the good faith efforts in media to look at Trump's ties to Russia.

03:08:40.520 And it is factual that his worldview seems to terrifyingly mirror Vladimir Putin, right?

03:08:48.240 To have serious NADSAC concerns and to cover that, which is the media's job.

03:08:53.640 Reasonable people can be worried about that.

03:08:56.280 Reasonable people can be upset about January 6th.

03:08:59.000 You're presenting a narrative to your audience that this means the whole system is corrupt.

03:09:05.620 I think it's a lot simpler.

03:09:06.960 I think Donald Trump himself is corrupt.

03:09:09.320 My view is you think Donald Trump is corrupt and you think Joe Biden is corrupt.

03:09:14.640 That's fine.

03:09:15.600 And there's no reconciliation.

03:09:18.020 There's nothing I can say to convince you that you're wrong.

03:09:20.520 That's untrue, Tim.

03:09:21.680 That is absolutely untrue.

03:09:22.980 So let's say this goes to court.

03:09:25.300 Let's say there's the Republicans.

03:09:27.440 Like they're talking impeachment proceedings.

03:09:29.080 If you brought up evidence of this with Hunter Biden, I've said from the beginning, dead consistently, throw him in jail.

03:09:36.780 They have no issue.

03:09:37.740 I'm not talking about Hunter, though.

03:09:38.860 I'm talking about Joe.

03:09:39.440 I know.

03:09:39.980 Should Joe be sent in prison?

03:09:41.220 If a committee goes and finds, like from the video you played, that there's actual intent there and you want to impeach him, if there's malfeasance in this White House, my position is we need to be prosecuting more politicians.

03:09:55.760 Sure. Would you would you agree with a Republican panel impeaching Joe Biden and convicting him for these charges?

03:10:00.720 If I swear to God, I don't know if you can tell this about my personality.

03:10:05.220 I would follow that story and I would look at it honestly.

03:10:09.920 And if the evidence were there, I would agree with that.

03:10:12.960 Democrats are actually pretty good at throwing our own people under the bus.

03:10:16.160 Sure, sure.

03:10:16.660 So my position is not about you individually.

03:10:18.940 I just think when you look at the state of politics over the past seven years, I have not seen something to suggest that at the conclusion of the 2024 election, America comes together and carries on like normal.

03:10:35.660 I disagree.

03:10:36.700 I think you think the January 6th people are going to just chill, chill out.

03:10:39.940 A friend of mine made a joke to me because I was talking about being in Maryland.

03:10:44.200 They were like, you know, the statement, the thing has touched grass.

03:10:48.060 Tim Pool has touched too much grass.

03:10:50.900 And I think that you are extremely online enough that you have a warped perception about the country.

03:11:02.600 And I do think there are a certain number of people in 2024, if we are successful, that are going to engage in domestic terrorism.

03:11:12.700 I think law enforcement should be ready for that.

03:11:14.820 I think that number is much smaller than I think your appraisal, if it is.

03:11:19.740 I think you're I assume that your view of my view is predicated upon a lack of understanding of historical civil war and revolution.

03:11:33.780 OK, so one thing I often hear when it comes to this degree of conflict, I think we had like a thousand people on January 6th.

03:11:41.120 You had something like 200 to 300,000 in D.C. for the rally itself.

03:11:44.860 And then I think it might be like 800 that were a party to the storming of the front of the Capitol, the right and all that stuff.

03:11:53.480 It's a question of how many people are involved in this.

03:11:57.940 We've talked about this last night, the American Revolution, like how it began, how many people were involved.

03:12:02.460 It's actually a ridiculously small number of people that sparked.

03:12:05.520 I live in Boston.

03:12:06.440 A war.

03:12:06.860 Yeah.

03:12:06.960 Yeah, it was.

03:12:09.640 What do they have?

03:12:10.560 A couple hundred redcoats in Boston to maintain the intolerable?

03:12:14.860 Well, X, because the colonial government was like, this is unjust.

03:12:18.380 And it resulted in a bunch of farmers outside of Boston saying we are not going to abide by the rule of the crown.

03:12:25.700 Sure.

03:12:26.320 They enacted the Suffolk Resolves where they basically had a bunch of random locals.

03:12:31.580 What happens?

03:12:32.500 The redcoats decide we're going to seize the weapons from these individuals because they should not be forming militia.

03:12:36.740 We now call that the shot heard around the world, the start of the American Revolution, despite the fact it was basically just a handful of cops trying to seize weapons from some,

03:12:44.660 some farmers.

03:12:45.320 Sure.

03:12:46.200 When it comes to what escalate.

03:12:47.680 So what happens after this is the shot heard around the world.

03:12:50.720 The word goes around that a bunch of local farmers took up arms and shot at a bunch of cops.

03:12:55.780 Right.

03:12:56.160 And then the narrative quickly shifts.

03:12:58.340 Now people are scared.

03:12:59.260 Not only can violence.

03:13:00.440 Before this, no one thought the violence could escalate.

03:13:03.140 First of all, nobody thought anyone would go.

03:13:04.440 No one thought colonialism, violence could escalate for British colonial policy?

03:13:09.500 Yeah, I think many people thought that.

03:13:10.780 It's actually the assessment at the time among most journalists, political leaders, prominent figures was revolution is not possible.

03:13:18.700 No one is going to fight the crown.

03:13:20.840 And what the founding fathers had been consistently doing was petitioning, sending letters and making arguments.

03:13:24.580 And the Declaration of Independence came a year after the battle at Concord and Lexington.

03:13:29.880 The sentiment changed.

03:13:31.280 People were shooting at each other now.

03:13:32.920 Even the even the Boston Massacre, which is considered a major component of the American Revolution, was not considered a war.

03:13:38.740 Only a few people died in Lexington.

03:13:40.720 The Concord, I think it was 18 people ended up dying in the conflict.

03:13:43.180 One redcoat.

03:13:43.760 But my point is that.

03:13:45.660 So the conclusion you're trying to tell your audience is.

03:13:49.360 Here's a historical event of what happens.

03:13:50.900 No matter what happens, the election is not, is going to result in chaos if few people can take it over.

03:13:57.080 So be ready.

03:13:58.840 Is that your basic message?

03:14:00.280 My statement is, I do not see a scenario where Trump supporters stop doing what they're doing, nor do Democrats stop doing what they're doing.

03:14:06.740 Well, you know what?

03:14:07.500 At a certain point, if you are going to engage in terrorism, you know, you're going to go to jail.

03:14:13.120 And you deserve to.

03:14:14.060 Yeah.

03:14:14.800 100%.

03:14:15.160 So what's the alternative, Tim?

03:14:17.000 It's not like.

03:14:17.960 Nobody wants.

03:14:18.980 I mean, look, there are people who want it to happen, but they shouldn't.

03:14:20.840 Do you think I like the fact that Donald Trump acted like such a child after he lost the election that we now have to pursue these court cases that are deeply damaging to our democracy?

03:14:31.380 It's a lose-lose situation.

03:14:33.020 If we do nothing, it signals to everyone out there that, hey, attempts to hijack an election are 100% okay.

03:14:40.480 If we engage in the rule of law, it sends the message that, yeah, we're one step closer to making people not believe in democracy, man.

03:14:48.460 Let me, I forget the name of this.

03:14:52.240 Do you know?

03:14:52.560 Shays' Rebellion.

03:14:53.160 There it is.

03:14:53.500 Shays' Rebellion.

03:14:54.420 So are you familiar with Shays' Rebellion?

03:14:55.880 I live in Boston, Tim.

03:14:57.240 Right.

03:14:57.500 I think that's historical precedent that actually the solution right now would be for Joe Biden to pardon the January Sixers who already spent two and a half years in prison and outright say, please work with us.

03:15:13.340 I think two and a half years is long enough and we don't want to exacerbate tensions in this country.

03:15:18.420 Yeah.

03:15:19.120 Joe Biden should, in my opinion now, I think this would dramatically de-escalate things.

03:15:23.640 I think that's not a bad idea.

03:15:25.200 If he said, time served for everyone involved, let's have a conversation.

03:15:30.540 I think you'd have to be selective about who you did that for.

03:15:36.260 Like the people, like one of the things I found really troubling is after a lot of these court cases, they come out and they're pumping their fist or doing things that seem to indicate they have no remorse.

03:15:45.580 But I think if you can find some people that are genuinely apologetic for what they're doing, I would not have any issue with that.

03:15:53.340 I don't think they need to be apologetic at all.

03:15:55.680 Really?

03:15:56.040 I think it's a Chinese finger trap problem that by Enrique Tarrio going to prison.

03:16:02.080 Be gentle to domestic terrorists?

03:16:05.080 It's a leap to call it domestic terrorism.

03:16:09.640 They tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power, Tim.

03:16:12.420 A handful of people.

03:16:14.040 But would you call Shea's rebellion a bunch of domestic terrorists?

03:16:17.460 I think the founding fathers were absolutely terrorists.

03:16:21.800 Well, sure, sure.

03:16:22.340 Okay, fine.

03:16:22.840 If that's how you want to describe it.

03:16:24.820 My point is-

03:16:25.860 I mean it sarcastically, but I think the British Empire would have-

03:16:29.160 Like Samuel Adams, he was a radical propagandist.

03:16:31.800 There are two key moments I think we can see in our history that suggest the appropriate move forward to help this country is for Joe Biden to pardon the J6ers.

03:16:40.540 Two and a half years time served.

03:16:42.280 People have already been in prison for a long time.

03:16:44.180 You've got Shea's rebellion, a blanket pardon for all those who fought against the government.

03:16:47.940 Why?

03:16:48.260 We cannot start a country fighting amongst ourselves over unpaid debts, etc.

03:16:51.820 And then you also had the election of, I think it was 1876, which it was a contentious determining what electoral votes to count resulted in a committee between Democrats and Republicans,

03:17:02.940 an agreement made to end the Reconstruction era in exchange for an amicable path forward for how the country would be governed for this next election cycle.

03:17:14.080 Right now, we're looking at people who outright are saying that the election was stolen still to this day.

03:17:20.540 Owen Schroyer's sentencing guidelines from the prosecutors explicitly cite his speech afterwards as justification for why he should go to prison for three months.

03:17:31.100 This is not simmering things down.

03:17:33.780 This is pouring gasoline on the fire.

03:17:35.620 The problem, Tim, is we have a right-wing ecosystem that has—we have a right-wing media ecosystem that has amped things up and has told people they are the victim.

03:17:49.300 And we are now in this situation where you have domestic terrorists and people trying to stop the peaceful transfer of power.

03:17:56.920 We're trying to treat them like children.

03:17:59.060 Are you talking about the left or the right, though?

03:18:01.240 I'm talking about the domestic terrorists that tried to take over the country on January 6th and stop the peaceful transfer of power.

03:18:08.340 And we're put in this situation of we can't talk to right-wingers like adults.

03:18:13.700 There are some people on the right—Mike Pence.

03:18:16.820 I don't agree with the guy on a lot, but his statements in the Republican presidential primary the other day, I really appreciated the integrity that he talked about on that day.

03:18:26.060 I think that we are in a hellish situation where there are a ton of media commentators in flame, in flame, in flame, tell people they're the victim.

03:18:35.340 And it makes it—they make it so they don't believe in democracy.

03:18:39.600 I think you've played a huge role in this.

03:18:41.560 I think your position is we will never compromise.

03:18:45.920 I just said, if you want to pardon them, I'm open to that.

03:18:50.880 But I think at some point—

03:18:52.420 Yeah, Tim, so—

03:18:53.200 Let me answer what you just said.

03:18:55.080 You're playing a role.

03:18:55.920 Sure.

03:18:56.660 My position is, what say you, good sir?

03:18:59.760 They say, here are all the things they're doing to us.

03:19:02.940 I've met people—I'm saying, like, I will ask someone.

03:19:06.440 And they'll say, I met a woman recently, and she said, we didn't even know anything happened at the Capitol.

03:19:10.700 We were walking around D.C.

03:19:11.800 Well, what is the average person supposed to do?

03:19:15.160 Be on the news 24-7?

03:19:16.860 And so—

03:19:17.380 Oh, they were in Washington, just out and about.

03:19:19.940 A woman walking around in D.C. with her husband.

03:19:23.660 D.C. is a big place.

03:19:25.060 Very big place.

03:19:25.720 Yeah.

03:19:25.800 And a lot of people go to the Capitol.

03:19:27.200 Yeah.

03:19:27.620 They're a family of people who live in a moderately suburban rural—suburbanish area, and they're moderates-leaning Republican.

03:19:34.120 And what she said was, sometime just before 4, they had gone to the Capitol on the side of the building.

03:19:42.160 They had seen no violence, no fighting, no broken glass, no fences.

03:19:44.600 They didn't know what—they didn't even know anything had happened.

03:19:46.840 There were something like 250,000 people who were there for a rally.

03:19:49.880 Most people weren't watching the news on their phones.

03:19:52.240 They're just walking around.

03:19:53.420 Right.

03:19:53.900 She walks up to the building, looks around.

03:19:56.360 There's cops.

03:19:57.240 They're waving people in and things like this.

03:19:58.660 This is well after the fighting had resolved.

03:20:00.960 And they shrug.

03:20:02.080 They were there on the grounds for a total of six minutes, and they left.

03:20:05.760 Feds burst into their house, arrested them as insurrectionists.

03:20:10.880 They didn't even know that they were wanted for anything or they'd done anything wrong.

03:20:14.280 Their immediate approach was to apologize and say, we're so sorry about this.

03:20:18.420 The judge said, so you admit you were part of a mob.

03:20:20.880 You are guilty.

03:20:21.880 You are guilty, and now they're facing a year and a half.

03:20:23.980 I think if I looked into this situation, I'd probably reach a different perception.

03:20:28.900 How about the man who was acquitted?

03:20:30.020 You are spinning this town.

03:20:31.760 Okay, how about the man who was acquitted by the judge?

03:20:34.000 No, no, no, hold on, hold on.

03:20:35.020 You can't just say, my stories are right, your stories are wrong.

03:20:37.780 I'm not saying that.

03:20:38.740 I'm not telling you this is definitively true.

03:20:40.300 I'm saying it doesn't sound credible.

03:20:41.720 Did you know that there was a man who was acquitted in a bench trial?

03:20:45.540 I'm sure there are many people that have been acquitted over January 6th.

03:20:48.700 Because there's a video of the cops motioning him to come in the building.

03:20:51.360 And the judge, so this person, right, has the story of, I'm raided by the feds, and I was found not guilty.

03:20:58.900 These stories exist.

03:21:00.020 Sure.

03:21:00.300 I am not telling you to, I'm not telling you to believe them.

03:21:02.400 That sounds like the Justice Department working its way out.

03:21:03.220 I'm not telling you to believe them.

03:21:04.280 I'm telling you that if I go to someone and they say, this thing happened to me, and your response is, you're spinning it and you're wrong, that's the conflict.

03:21:11.760 That's not my statement.

03:21:13.180 You're mischaracterizing what I just said to you, Tim.

03:21:15.160 You just said I'm probably spinning it.

03:21:16.100 I said that story does not sound credible to me.

03:21:20.080 And I suspect that if I looked into that situation, I would probably understand there's more to the story than what you're saying.

03:21:26.700 And that's not my point.

03:21:27.560 As evidenced by the fact that they were found guilty.

03:21:30.640 And that's not my point.

03:21:31.900 My point is, if you're adjudicating a dispute between parties, and your position is, I'm assuming there's something more to this, and that's it, you are on one side of that dispute.

03:21:45.860 I'm on the side of believing, like, the only fact I really have here is the Justice Department, the justice system came to a guilty verdict, right?

03:21:56.500 So that seems to me, like, as far as, like, if I were writing that in the newspaper, the moment a guilty verdict is found, that's the time you don't say alleged murderer, you say murderer.

03:22:06.580 Sure.

03:22:06.760 Like, it's a fact at that point.

03:22:08.780 So my point here is not whether or not someone did or didn't do anything wrong.

03:22:12.740 It's not to you.

03:22:13.640 You still maintain that they're...

03:22:15.620 They're innocent people in prison?

03:22:17.480 You reach the conclusion over and over, it feels like you're minimizing January 6th.

03:22:24.420 I think anyone watching this is going to come to that conclusion.

03:22:28.500 It's not the same as me saying, like, the people who are violent should be in prison.

03:22:31.760 Sure.

03:22:32.020 Right?

03:22:32.440 I'm talking about an individual case.

03:22:34.760 I am not talking about whether you think they're right or wrong.

03:22:36.940 My point is, if someone comes to you and says, these are the things I've experienced that they're doing to us, I say, I hear what you're saying.

03:22:43.720 I'll then go and talk to you.

03:22:44.720 And you'll say, here are the things I'm seeing and what I'm worried about.

03:22:47.260 I go, that's very interesting.

03:22:48.460 I'm then told by you that I'm making a false equivalence.

03:22:52.420 Because I'm not here to determine that you are correct or the January 6th who feels persecuted is correct.

03:22:58.780 I'm here to tell you that it doesn't matter what you think is true.

03:23:01.220 It matters what everyone decides to take as true.

03:23:05.320 So if Jussie Smollett, for instance, it matters if it's true.

03:23:10.040 By the way, never, you cannot find any statement from me ever supporting him.

03:23:13.960 Because that story, this actually speaks to the opposite of your point.

03:23:17.080 That story smelled like BS from the word go to me.

03:23:21.340 And I said to myself-

03:23:22.160 But I'm not talking about you.

03:23:22.780 Hold on, hold on.

03:23:23.680 This is because I think this is bad faith, respectfully.

03:23:27.080 Jussie Smollett is something, this is a situation where it came out in the news.

03:23:31.120 I go, ooh, I just flat out don't believe that.

03:23:34.860 And I was very strategic.

03:23:36.660 I'm not talking about you.

03:23:37.420 And careful to be quiet about that because I do take truth.

03:23:40.380 Right.

03:23:40.740 Seriously.

03:23:41.020 I'm not talking about you.

03:23:41.900 Sure.

03:23:42.400 I'm saying-

03:23:42.960 But you're making it out like there's no evidence with the January 6th people-

03:23:47.200 That's not what I'm saying at all.

03:23:48.100 ... if they weren't innocent that I would agree to the audience there.

03:23:51.920 And that's not the case.

03:23:53.060 In fact, the people admitted they trespassed.

03:23:55.320 That's why they got charged.

03:23:56.520 Sure.

03:23:56.700 That's why they got convicted.

03:23:57.440 So there's direct evidence in their statements that, we're sorry, we didn't realize.

03:24:00.620 And they said, too bad.

03:24:01.560 But that's not my point.

03:24:02.460 Let's flip this around, though.

03:24:03.700 What evidence could exist to convince you that Trump is fundamentally corrupt?

03:24:08.440 I mean, that's a broad, open-

03:24:12.140 Like, Trump could go out in the middle of the street and kick a dog in the face.

03:24:15.000 Okay, so that's the limit.

03:24:16.460 No, I mean, there's a plethora of things.

03:24:18.920 But I'm trying to make a point.

03:24:19.960 I want to come back to this, though.

03:24:21.340 Right, come back to it.

03:24:22.260 My point is this.

03:24:24.620 Jussie Smollett happens.

03:24:25.780 Sure.

03:24:26.260 And there are two worldviews in the immediate, for which you're not party to, and I'm not criticizing you.

03:24:32.180 Television actors, movie stars, everyone came out and said, this is true.

03:24:36.800 It was not true.

03:24:38.440 I mean, you had Big Bang Theory did a big display for the guy.

03:24:42.000 Okay, I see what you're saying.

03:24:43.320 The immediate assumption is this guy is a poor victim.

03:24:46.200 Sure.

03:24:47.200 On the right, something smells strange and is not correct.

03:24:51.360 Right.

03:24:51.880 This comes to Mork's, it's a less serious story.

03:24:55.580 Eventually, the dude is-

03:24:56.660 I think it's pretty serious faking a hate crime.

03:24:58.900 But he didn't get in any, like, he got in trouble.

03:25:00.900 I mean, it messed his career up for sure.

03:25:02.200 He should go to prison.

03:25:02.780 Didn't he go to jail about that?

03:25:04.180 He got like a slap on the wrist.

03:25:05.680 They dropped a bunch of the charges.

03:25:06.980 There was a contentious argument.

03:25:07.940 It's too bad.

03:25:08.780 And I think, yeah, I can't remember exactly what's happening.

03:25:10.600 But this comes to disparate worldviews and trust that exists in this country.

03:25:16.380 Sure.

03:25:16.900 It doesn't matter whether or not in the political space what Jussie Smollett was, Jussie Smollett

03:25:23.940 said was true.

03:25:24.780 What mattered is Ellen Page at the time, now Elliot Page, went on TV and said, this happened.

03:25:31.580 And for this, we will.

03:25:35.320 So even though something happened that wasn't true, the political ramifications were exorbitant.

03:25:41.680 This is true across the board.

03:25:43.620 If a Trump supporter gets arrested, you could have definitive proof.

03:25:46.880 I mean, this guy's dirty as they come.

03:25:48.680 But if the narrative that emerges, for whatever reason, conflicts, and they all seem to be doing

03:25:53.340 it, it doesn't matter what is true in the political sense.

03:25:56.340 It always matters what's true in the moral sense.

03:25:58.300 It matters that people are going to respond as if it's true no matter what.

03:26:01.120 And the antidote to that is to get people to take a breath.

03:26:07.860 And this is something I really respect destiny for, to teach people how to think about problems.

03:26:13.660 Like the most radical thing you can be in 2023 is not a punk or communist or tanky or right

03:26:20.740 winger.

03:26:21.240 It's someone who critically thinks through arguments before deciding what you want to believe,

03:26:27.240 right?

03:26:27.580 I agree.

03:26:27.880 Who's willing to hold your own side accountable when you F up.

03:26:31.620 So I think that the answer to this, Tim, is for all of us to have a much higher standard

03:26:38.100 of what we retweet, what we believe, to have sourcing on things that aren't this like litany

03:26:44.960 of garbage sites to be more thoughtful about all of that.

03:26:48.480 And I think this is something respectfully, I don't think you do a good job on.

03:26:52.380 I only use NewsGuard certified sources.

03:26:54.700 Okay.

03:26:55.080 If you can't agree on a standard, then there's nothing to be said.

03:27:00.220 You retweet a lot of videos that are unsourced.

03:27:04.500 You make a lot of like, here's, here's a good example.

03:27:07.260 The other day, and God, I don't, you know, actually, I know people want me to get into

03:27:12.460 the whole thing where you were like, oh, and I, I know they're probably making this thing

03:27:16.280 up about Obama being gay.

03:27:17.740 I don't care.

03:27:18.340 It's the Democrats.

03:27:19.140 I know DGG really wants me to talk about that.

03:27:21.020 I don't even want to get into you.

03:27:22.060 About what me saying, it's a BS story and it's, it's probably not true.

03:27:25.480 Yeah, but you wanted to talk about it anyway.

03:27:27.020 I mean, it's headline news with 55, that's not true at all.

03:27:30.940 Yeah.

03:27:31.320 We actually did not lead with that story the day that the interview dropped.

03:27:34.280 It's.

03:27:34.820 We actually didn't lead with it the day the, the, the, the, the trailer dropped.

03:27:37.620 This is what I just said.

03:27:38.660 This is the thing.

03:27:39.460 You know, you know, you know, this is the issue.

03:27:41.920 It's you must ignore what we tell you to ignore or address what we tell you to address.

03:27:46.880 I did not lead my show with the Obama allegations.

03:27:49.980 Sure.

03:27:50.260 We talked about a story that's got 55 million views to which I said, it is WWE garbage that

03:27:56.300 doesn't need to be made and Tucker should not have done it.

03:27:58.600 Right.

03:27:59.340 And I'm getting criticized.

03:28:00.640 I'm going to talk about, look, I try to step away from this because it doesn't go anywhere

03:28:05.460 productive.

03:28:05.920 We've seen that over and over again.

03:28:07.580 I'm saying that your comments there, it's not bad faith.

03:28:11.840 I'm trying to step away, but if you want to go here, we can't.

03:28:15.600 Actually, do you just want to drop it and move on?

03:28:17.480 I'll show you the Reddit link after the show and we can talk about it.

03:28:21.180 Outside of any particular story.

03:28:23.240 Yeah.

03:28:23.780 The point I want to address is I make a video where I say the military industrial complex

03:28:29.520 is, is, is, is bad.

03:28:31.180 They're doing revolving door contracts and the left insults me for it.

03:28:35.300 Okay.

03:28:35.920 I should say this prominent left-wing personalities with some of the largest audiences insult me

03:28:40.900 when I agree with them.

03:28:42.800 I think I hear what you're saying.

03:28:46.460 I respect it.

03:28:47.320 I think there are a lot of people in media that being in the public eye is very destructive

03:28:53.220 for your mental health.

03:28:54.620 I've certainly seen that it's easy to become resentful about the way you're portrayed.

03:29:00.060 And I hear what you're saying.

03:29:01.020 That's not the issue at all.

03:29:01.940 Sure.

03:29:02.100 The issue is a false narrative is created over my views on elections, abortion, taxation,

03:29:09.980 intervention.

03:29:10.480 In order for someone to get clicks and make money, which then results in people talking

03:29:16.520 to me and saying things like, it's remarkable that people make the assumption that I'm like,

03:29:21.760 one, this, the right does this.

03:29:23.840 They say, Tim's an atheist.

03:29:24.760 And I'm like, what?

03:29:25.560 I've never said that.

03:29:27.900 And the left says, I'm pro-life.

03:29:29.380 And I'm like, I've never been pro-life.

03:29:31.340 Yeah.

03:29:31.600 But it's because someone will take a clip, alter its context because it gets them traffic

03:29:35.780 and makes them money.

03:29:36.620 Sure.

03:29:36.720 I understand you feel that way.

03:29:40.300 I'm sure people do it to you.

03:29:41.580 They do it to all of us.

03:29:42.920 This is why.

03:29:43.420 They do it to Cenk.

03:29:44.280 They do it to Sam Seder.

03:29:45.540 They do it to Vosch.

03:29:46.640 They do it to Destiny.

03:29:47.740 They do it to Emma.

03:29:48.760 I mean, this is just, it's part of being a public figure.

03:29:52.460 It's awful.

03:29:53.660 Yeah.

03:29:53.780 Right?

03:29:54.260 It's crazy to me.

03:29:55.540 So many young people want to be famous when I've got like the lowest level of fame you

03:30:00.700 can have, which is feminism fame, and it's just ruined your life, right?

03:30:05.060 Yeah.

03:30:05.540 I mean, you'd be better off, I don't know, selling paintings, be famous in anything other

03:30:11.120 than politics.

03:30:11.980 People still hate you though.

03:30:12.900 People think this makes you happy.

03:30:15.020 What ends up happening is there's a shadow version of you that gets created and everyone

03:30:19.960 out there will believe anything bad about you if it adheres to a narrative and it is deeply

03:30:26.580 destructive to your psyche.

03:30:27.840 And I see that today as I'm talking to you, Sam.

03:30:32.320 I disagree with that.

03:30:34.920 You disagree this is damage to you?

03:30:37.500 Yeah.

03:30:38.880 Okay.

03:30:39.560 That feels to me like an emotional attack, right?

03:30:42.600 I'm not attacking you.

03:30:43.720 I'm saying I have empathy because I understand what it's like to be under attack.

03:30:48.220 It's damaged me.

03:30:49.580 I have to imagine.

03:30:50.740 My concern over...

03:30:52.740 You hear me here.

03:30:53.880 I'm not attacking you.

03:30:54.820 I'm trying to empathize, right?

03:30:56.020 So then I would say I think your perspective of my issue is in the wrong direction.

03:31:02.600 Okay.

03:31:02.900 My issue is when people lie about things for political power or financial gain.

03:31:07.780 Sure.

03:31:08.240 And whether it's me or Obama or Jenk or anyone, I take personal issue and offense to the lies.

03:31:15.800 So, for instance, I called out leading report when they tried to manufacture a narrative on the COVID vaccine.

03:31:22.760 That pisses me off.

03:31:24.040 Right.

03:31:24.420 And so I will say this is not true.

03:31:26.560 Sure.

03:31:26.920 Here's the real context.

03:31:28.800 So when, whether it's me or anyone else, my issue would be I won't engage with people who do that.

03:31:36.440 Right.

03:31:36.660 There's two varying degrees, right?

03:31:38.200 You have to have conversations with people who are going to do things.

03:31:40.780 What I hear you're telling me is you feel like you, from your perspective, show a great deal of integrity.

03:31:46.560 You feel like there's an ecosystem out there that profits from distorting what you say.

03:31:52.980 And I hear you.

03:31:55.840 I personally, the things I've seen on you directionally have seemed like fair critiques, but I'm sure there are some examples you could bring up.

03:32:05.260 I just, you know, I'm less interested in adjudicating who you are as a person.

03:32:09.440 I mean, it's just not relevant to public policy.

03:32:11.640 I agree.

03:32:12.880 And it doesn't, the focus of this is not what I deal with.

03:32:17.660 The focus is what you deal with and what everyone deals with and how we are supposed to solve political issues when, I mean, the industry is to lie.

03:32:28.520 It's just everyone's going to take things out of context, manipulate them.

03:32:31.860 So how do we solve the culture?

03:32:33.360 This is utterly unwinnable.

03:32:35.120 Oh, that's why I tell people the key to winning is to knock on doors.

03:32:38.440 Yeah.

03:32:38.680 Go vote.

03:32:39.360 Great.

03:32:39.520 Start a business.

03:32:40.260 Great.

03:32:40.640 Protect your family.

03:32:42.220 Focus on your kids.

03:32:44.020 Make money.

03:32:44.720 Be successful.

03:32:45.880 And support companies that support your values.

03:32:48.460 Yeah.

03:32:49.020 And that's all you have to do.

03:32:50.340 And the last thing anyone should be doing is any kind of fighting or violence.

03:32:53.040 In fact, I even said people shouldn't protest in front of the court when Trump was being arraigned.

03:32:56.900 And I said, if you do, you should be on your knees with your hands cuffed in a visual protest of what was going on.

03:33:05.620 Do not create an open door for any kind of escalation or violence.

03:33:08.440 I want to come back to something you said we could do earlier.

03:33:10.840 So you've accused me and the left multiple times today of, I don't want to say intellectual dishonesty.

03:33:17.520 That's too strong.

03:33:18.380 But like talking as if there's no point where I could reach a conclusion.

03:33:22.580 Right.

03:33:23.080 And I gave you multiple examples of where that's not true.

03:33:26.440 I think Conor Biden and Joe Biden, if you can find out he's done something truly that shows collusion there.

03:33:33.000 I would welcome a court case there.

03:33:35.760 In fact, it would probably be good for the Democrats because then we'd have a new nominee for 2024.

03:33:40.460 Kevin Newsom.

03:33:41.100 Hold on.

03:33:41.980 He's very good.

03:33:42.960 So what is something that theoretically could happen that would lead you to the conclusion that Trump is a fundamentally dishonest person?

03:33:55.120 Right.

03:33:55.820 Yeah.

03:33:56.140 But there's an infinite number of answers to that.

03:33:58.560 Okay.

03:34:00.640 The classified document story didn't do that for you?

03:34:04.000 The classified document story is, look, Donald Trump has a 51% from me.

03:34:11.740 I like some of the things he's done.

03:34:13.280 I like foreign policy.

03:34:14.120 I like the Abraham Accords.

03:34:14.960 Sure.

03:34:15.280 I like North Korea.

03:34:16.320 Okay.

03:34:16.960 I thought the economy was pretty good in 2019.

03:34:19.140 He did a lot of really dumb things.

03:34:20.340 He had a lot of really bad people.

03:34:21.300 He hired John Bolton.

03:34:22.100 I didn't vote for him in 2016.

03:34:23.400 Sure.

03:34:24.360 I'm not going to vote for Joe Biden.

03:34:25.600 I'd vote against him.

03:34:26.480 Okay.

03:34:26.660 The Obama administration was deeply corrupt.

03:34:29.760 I don't think Donald Trump is, I don't know.

03:34:35.080 What do you call him?

03:34:35.740 He's the, what do they say?

03:34:38.660 He's the worst of our culture and Hillary Clinton was the worst of our politics.

03:34:44.400 And so these are the choices that people had.

03:34:46.000 Right.

03:34:46.560 Donald Trump tried to hold the G7 meeting at his own golf resort and made the claim that this would save money for the government.

03:34:53.580 Yeah.

03:34:53.820 Yeah.

03:34:54.320 It would also provide cost revenue measures for his, his, his, his, his golf resort.

03:34:59.400 And he said, yeah, but we're not going to charge money.

03:35:01.220 Yeah.

03:35:01.600 But it covers the costs of your employees.

03:35:03.380 If you're not booked, you're losing money.

03:35:05.500 Even if you book them at cost, that's, that's a conflict of interest.

03:35:09.220 Trump backed off that.

03:35:09.920 He was getting people to fly a huge distance to go to that golf resort.

03:35:14.680 Those way out of everyone's way.

03:35:16.420 And it got canceled because people like me and many others were like, that's BS.

03:35:20.380 You can't do that.

03:35:21.120 Okay.

03:35:21.300 Great.

03:35:21.740 You've also.

03:35:22.200 So my question, I feel like you're getting off course here.

03:35:24.440 Look, if you look at the totality of the Trump administration, which you got to admit, it had a lot of scandals.

03:35:31.100 Like what is something that could happen to lead you to the conclusion?

03:35:34.720 Like it's not the justice department is crooked.

03:35:37.720 It's it.

03:35:38.380 We're dealing with someone that is fundamentally a criminal, right?

03:35:42.040 The, the, there's an infinite number of answers to that question.

03:35:44.380 It's how do you answer that?

03:35:45.780 Uh, uh, a photo gets released of Trump brutally murdering somebody to cover up a crime.

03:35:49.740 Okay.

03:35:49.940 So he murders someone.

03:35:51.480 Uh, Trump, uh, it puts on a video.

03:35:54.700 How about this?

03:35:55.680 Uh, a video of Trump jumping in into the front of the beast and grabbing the steering wheel and screaming, go back to the Capitol.

03:36:03.020 Okay.

03:36:04.060 Because the media said he did that.

03:36:07.100 The media said that on January 6th, Donald Trump reached for the steering wheel.

03:36:09.960 With the secret service.

03:36:11.280 Yeah.

03:36:11.620 He was in the beast.

03:36:12.240 I'm remembering what you're talking about.

03:36:13.080 But there's a partition.

03:36:14.300 Yeah.

03:36:14.460 And so the story is like.

03:36:16.000 Right.

03:36:17.600 The secret service, according to that story, said they had to restrain Trump because he tried to grab the wheel to go back to the Capitol.

03:36:23.940 Right.

03:36:24.020 Which is impossible in a vehicle with a partition.

03:36:27.620 Uh, okay.

03:36:28.760 Right.

03:36:29.020 So like the first challenges, I.

03:36:32.460 This was something in a story, by the way.

03:36:35.460 It was the lead story.

03:36:36.440 Like Trump wanted to go back to the Capitol.

03:36:38.380 It was color in a story, a wider story about those protests.

03:36:41.480 So the first issue is, what I was trying to say initially is that I don't have a very favorable, like a very high favorable view of Trump as it is.

03:36:49.420 Yeah.

03:36:49.940 So it's not a high bar for me to be like, oh yeah.

03:36:52.560 You're doing stuff with Donald Trump Jr.

03:36:54.580 Seems like you do.

03:36:55.680 But Trump Jr. as an individual versus Trump Sr. and, I mean, the sins of the father, there's a lot of questions there.

03:37:02.380 Besides, sitting down with the son of the president for a live conversation is not like the dude and I are going to play golf together and jumping in there and high-fiving in celebration.

03:37:09.280 You're making money from the event, right?

03:37:11.020 Absolutely.

03:37:11.480 Yeah.

03:37:11.980 And we're having someone who is going to provide his perspective and insight, the same as we have you, or Jackson Hinkle, or Vosch, or Charlie Kirk.

03:37:20.380 Would you hold an event with, you know, Jill Biden in the same way?

03:37:24.940 Absolutely.

03:37:25.880 Oh man, I wish.

03:37:27.560 We've been trying to get Marianne Williamson forever.

03:37:29.760 Oh, she's, yeah.

03:37:30.460 And she's somewhere, we've tried to get Bill Maher, tried to get the Young Turks.

03:37:34.680 We've tried to get Sam Cedar.

03:37:36.080 We've also reached out to the squad.

03:37:37.760 So you wouldn't have Sam Cedar back now.

03:37:40.940 Oh, I'm sorry.

03:37:42.540 I meant to say somebody else.

03:37:44.260 Cenk Uygur.

03:37:45.020 Sorry.

03:37:45.280 Okay.

03:37:45.780 Yeah.

03:37:46.240 No, the short take with Sam is that he's engaged in too much, like, performance.

03:37:49.660 I've heard it 10 times.

03:37:50.940 I know.

03:37:51.140 I know.

03:37:51.220 I know.

03:37:51.600 I know.

03:37:51.760 Yeah.

03:37:52.040 Trump Jr. is welcome to come and sit down.

03:37:55.460 We got Patrick Bette David and Matt Gaetz as well.

03:37:58.140 These are the people that-

03:37:59.360 Republican, Republican, Republican.

03:38:00.700 Is Patrick Bette David a Republican?

03:38:02.140 Is he not?

03:38:02.940 Am I hallucinating that?

03:38:03.880 I don't know.

03:38:04.460 Yeah.

03:38:04.640 I don't know if, like, his whole, Patrick Bette David's like an entrepreneurship.

03:38:09.740 He's pretty right wing, the whole show.

03:38:11.520 Cenk was on it the other day.

03:38:13.460 Yeah, but I wonder if the question is, does the left view anyone not left as right wing?

03:38:19.760 I don't know Patrick Bette David's positions, right?

03:38:22.020 Okay.

03:38:22.440 Okay.

03:38:23.220 Yeah, we would literally, there's, I mean, we'd have everybody.

03:38:29.320 But to the question of-

03:38:30.020 You would host an event?

03:38:31.240 Would you host a fundraiser for Elizabeth Warren?

03:38:33.600 A fundraiser?

03:38:34.540 Yeah.

03:38:34.840 Why would I do a fundraiser for her?

03:38:35.780 I don't know.

03:38:36.320 I would absolutely invite her onto a panel on stage that people could pay tickets to come attend.

03:38:40.380 Okay.

03:38:40.900 Fair enough.

03:38:42.020 She can walk to my front door, knock on the door.

03:38:44.200 Elizabeth Warren is welcome to come to this house.

03:38:45.860 At any point, knock on the door.

03:38:47.800 In fact, I am hereby giving Elizabeth Warren permission to literally walk into my house.

03:38:52.600 It's an office.

03:38:53.380 I don't live here.

03:38:54.140 She's my senator.

03:38:55.100 She can text me.

03:38:55.940 She can walk on in, sit down in the chair, anytime, and we'll have a conversation.

03:39:01.260 Yeah, Elizabeth Warren is a really good example of somebody in politics, I think, really gets

03:39:05.900 a bad rap.

03:39:06.820 And I think this is how the process really distorts who people are and what they stand

03:39:12.240 for.

03:39:12.520 When you see Elizabeth Warren in person, and she's my senator, I've been to a ton of events

03:39:17.220 with her.

03:39:17.940 She's warm, charismatic.

03:39:20.160 She's the best people person I've ever seen, like work in a crowd, sharp on policy issues,

03:39:27.840 laser focused.

03:39:29.180 And then you look at how the right-wing spin machine takes her and turns her into Pocahontas

03:39:34.660 and the serial liar that's making up stuff.

03:39:37.520 And she's just like the most dedicated, good faith servant for Massachusetts she could possibly

03:39:43.240 imagine.

03:39:44.300 So, 99.9% of people are welcome.

03:39:50.320 The only stipulation we've ever had is-

03:39:52.120 But you mostly have right-wingers.

03:39:53.480 Do you think we just don't invite the left?

03:39:55.940 We invited you, right?

03:39:57.180 We did.

03:39:57.700 You're one of like four-

03:39:58.520 I was walking up the stairs.

03:39:59.960 I couldn't see a single left-winger.

03:40:01.320 That's not true.

03:40:01.940 Vosch is right there.

03:40:02.700 Oh, Vosch is there.

03:40:03.340 Vosch is right there.

03:40:04.360 Excellent.

03:40:04.740 And I think Destiny might be there.

03:40:06.340 Vosch is a good guy.

03:40:07.280 And there's a handful of people who are totally apolitical that are up there as well.

03:40:09.860 But we have Enrique Tarrio, Steve Shannon, Alex Jones.

03:40:11.760 So you have two leftists and some apolitical people?

03:40:13.720 Absolutely.

03:40:14.440 And so ask yourself why they don't come on the show.

03:40:16.900 I think that it's intimidating-

03:40:19.180 Like we invited you.

03:40:20.060 Yep.

03:40:20.960 It's intimidating to come into right-wing spaces, just to be really honest with you.

03:40:24.960 And honest, look at my Twitter when I announced this.

03:40:28.620 I would say the number of people that didn't want me to come on this show was probably 20 to 1.

03:40:34.620 On the left.

03:40:35.200 On the left, yeah.

03:40:36.000 Yeah.

03:40:37.480 That's damaging.

03:40:38.880 I think it's stupid.

03:40:40.380 Yeah.

03:40:40.680 Yeah.

03:40:41.420 So we invite people on the left consistently all the time.

03:40:45.220 Okay.

03:40:45.440 I mean, it's how the Sam's Theater thing started.

03:40:46.700 I tweeted, like, we've been trying to book people on the left.

03:40:49.040 They just won't come on the show.

03:40:50.420 Yeah.

03:40:51.520 Vosch and Destiny typically will come on the show whenever they're available.

03:40:55.540 And we're like, we're looking to do something.

03:40:57.320 So I have tremendous respect for them.

03:40:59.380 Kyle Kalinske agreed to come on, but he hosts his own show.

03:41:02.380 So I have tremendous respect for Vosch coming on considering he does his own show and took

03:41:05.780 time to do ours.

03:41:06.660 That's fantastic.

03:41:08.180 And mild-mannered and calm and reasonable conversations.

03:41:10.680 I disagree with him politically.

03:41:11.620 That's awesome.

03:41:11.960 But first of all, you know who I really don't like coming on the show is politicians.

03:41:17.540 But we will welcome politicians on the show.

03:41:20.140 Why?

03:41:21.140 It's all fake.

03:41:22.540 Do you think so?

03:41:23.620 So I would say 98% of the politicians, and I'm telling you, these are conservative.

03:41:30.880 These are Republicans because Democrats, for the most part, took them on the show.

03:41:33.480 We had, we've had like maybe two or three Democratic people, you know, in our longevity.

03:41:39.540 But it's like, you bring people in and then it's just like, you ask them a question.

03:41:42.200 They'll say, that's a really good question.

03:41:43.460 You know, when I think about questions like this, I'm like, oh, here we go.

03:41:46.360 Yeah.

03:41:46.520 But a small handful of people that just have the conversation, say what you will about Carrie

03:41:50.420 Lake, she just says stuff.

03:41:52.360 Vivek Ramaswamy, he just says stuff.

03:41:54.260 And I'm like, oh, okay.

03:41:55.500 It's refreshing.

03:41:56.620 I respect that about him.

03:41:58.000 I agree with you.

03:41:59.140 Democrats need to get off message and be able to have real conversations.

03:42:03.020 My experience with elected people is, I think it is a thankless job in a way you can't appreciate

03:42:10.480 if you have not done it.

03:42:11.800 But you're fundraising every second you're awake, you're going to events, you don't get

03:42:16.420 jacation, like it's supposedly breaking Congress right now.

03:42:20.900 There's someone I'm working with and they're doing events every few hours on their quote

03:42:25.940 unquote break.

03:42:27.000 So I think it is a very, very difficult job that people don't appreciate.

03:42:32.260 And I think most people actually go into it for the right reasons, including on the right.

03:42:36.340 Yeah.

03:42:37.160 We've gone way over.

03:42:38.040 We've got to wrap up.

03:42:38.420 I'm so sorry, man.

03:42:39.500 No, it was good.

03:42:40.040 And I think my final thought is just that, you know, we can't always just look at how

03:42:44.740 things were or what we think they were historically because every policy we put in place has results

03:42:51.060 that we could not foresee.

03:42:52.400 Sure.

03:42:52.760 So taking a look at like one member of Congress representing 775,000 people clearly makes

03:42:56.880 no sense.

03:42:58.040 Maybe 35,000 made sense back in the day, but now it's becoming untenable.

03:43:01.920 And so it's resulting in political classes, financial classes.

03:43:05.960 It's like we have, it's weird that we have profession, royal families almost like, you

03:43:12.560 know, the third person in the family to go into finance, the third person in the family

03:43:16.320 to be a race car driver.

03:43:17.300 It's like everything's becoming, you know, isolated or whatever.

03:43:20.180 And this is true for politics.

03:43:21.520 I think that results in a political class, which results in resentment from people who

03:43:27.200 are not privy to what it's like in the political class and people in the political class who

03:43:30.880 don't know what it's like to say, work at a, you know, a mechanic shop or something.

03:43:35.020 One of the things I see in Massachusetts is there's an entire industry of people that went

03:43:39.400 to Harvard and they go straight into the, you know, the electoral class in Massachusetts and

03:43:46.920 they just don't have any idea what it's like to be homeless, to struggle to pay your rent.

03:43:52.180 It's just privilege, privilege, privilege, privilege.

03:43:54.800 And you talk about working class people as if they're a dumb animal you've got to manipulate.

03:44:00.540 I've absolutely seen that.

03:44:02.160 Um, I just, I think my last thought would be, you know, Tim, the very, very best case

03:44:10.260 in life, the most we got in life is what we fight for.

03:44:13.780 And the very best government we get is the one that we work to bring to fruition.

03:44:19.580 And I think one of my biggest problems with many people in politics right now on the left

03:44:26.360 and the right is they believe if you burn the system down, you're one step away from utopia.

03:44:32.160 And I don't think that's true.

03:44:34.480 I agree.

03:44:35.260 I think that the way to move forward as a country is to focus on democracy, to work on

03:44:41.120 improving what's broken.

03:44:43.400 And we need to believe in this.

03:44:45.640 And I think all of us need to get out there and talk to people on the other side, which

03:44:49.720 is why I'm here today.

03:44:50.820 Well, uh, thank you for coming.

03:44:52.360 And Alex, we didn't even talk about Gamergate and it just, it is what it is.

03:44:56.820 I don't know, whatever.

03:44:57.860 Thanks for hanging out with us.

03:44:58.780 That sort of happened, yeah.

03:44:59.360 But, you know, I appreciate you coming and, uh, I don't know, the conversation went where

03:45:03.640 it went.

03:45:03.960 All the super chats are saying, Alex, pipe down.

03:45:07.120 But, uh, yeah, c'est la vie.

03:45:09.120 Uh, we went way over.

03:45:10.060 It was a good conversation.

03:45:10.840 Thank you for coming.

03:45:11.400 I really enjoyed it.

03:45:11.920 And, uh, everybody else will be back tonight at 8 p.m.

03:45:14.920 YouTube.com slash TimCastIRL.

03:45:16.420 And we will see you all then.

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The Culture War - Tim Pool - September 08, 2023

The Culture War #29 - From Gamergate To Civil War w⧸Brianna Wu & Alex Baldwin

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