The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #30 - Surrogacy, Men's Rights, and Modern Parenting w⧸ Jeff Younger & Katy Faust

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00:00:58.140 One of the things that came up during our Tim Castile episode with Mr. Jeff Younger was the

00:01:10.100 concept of surrogacy and surrounding the issue of men's rights. A lot of the stuff starts coming

00:01:15.920 together along with a bunch of other ideas around artificial wounds, abortion. There's a big

00:01:21.460 conversation here, especially when it comes to surrogacy and men's rights as it pertains to

00:01:27.320 their children, when you go to divorce courts, who the courts favor. And I'm trying to just do like

00:01:33.420 a wide spread on all these subjects that we've talked about before. But on today's episode of

00:01:39.160 The Culture War, we're going to be discussing all of these things and what it means for society and

00:01:43.060 where we go. I think there's a big question around the traditional gender roles, the roles

00:01:47.420 of mothers and fathers and how we navigate what's happening to our society. Last, not last week,

00:01:53.820 but a couple of weeks ago, we talked with Fresh and Fit who have basically, they've lamented the

00:02:00.140 modern state of dating and their solution was more focused on adapting to it and becoming something

00:02:04.860 different as a man. Whereas Jason Howerton, high value dad said, no, no, you have to resist these

00:02:09.340 things and retain those traditional values that make you a good father. So I think we have a lot to

00:02:14.180 discuss and to elaborate on. We have a couple of people joining us today. Katie, would you like

00:02:18.640 to introduce yourself first? Yeah, my name is Katie Faust. I run the children's rights nonprofit

00:02:22.980 Them Before Us, which insists that adults bend to children's rights rather than insisting that

00:02:27.740 children conform to adult desires. That makes me a fierce advocate. I'm sorry, a fierce adversary of

00:02:33.840 surrogacy in all forms. In essence, children have a right to their mother and father. And we look at

00:02:40.660 every marriage and family issue from the definition of marriage to divorce to same sex parenting,

00:02:45.580 reproductive technologies, adoption, cohabitation, everything through the lens of the best interest

00:02:50.900 of the child. So that I'm going to be representing what I hope is a very accurate picture of children's

00:02:56.660 interests in this conversation. And we have Jeff Younger.

00:02:59.120 Hi, my name is Jeff Younger. I got embroiled in family law unwillingly when my ex-wife tried to

00:03:05.420 transition my son to a girl and the entire government of the state of Texas basically

00:03:10.080 sided with her and tried to chemically castrate my son at the age of eight. And so that took me down

00:03:16.520 this rabbit hole of exactly what parental rights are, how they're actually understood in the legal

00:03:23.220 system. I would like to say that I think Katie Faust has a sincere love of children and I admire a lot

00:03:30.300 of her work. I do disagree with her on surrogacy. Well, we have a lot to talk about. I want to talk

00:03:35.180 about, obviously, traditional gender roles come into play here, the differences between men and

00:03:39.540 women, men's rights, dating, relationships, all of that stuff will be big. But we can just get

00:03:43.540 started with surrogacy in general, because this was a point of contention on our episode of IRL when

00:03:49.640 you were here. There are a lot of women who are not even conservative, who have a distaste for the

00:03:56.160 idea of surrogacy. So I'm wondering if either of you wants to start. Maybe, Jeff, you could present

00:04:00.460 your argument and how you feel about it. Sure. So you mentioned two possible ways of dealing with

00:04:06.340 the changes in the world, the technological changes in the world. One was to try to maintain

00:04:11.840 traditional ways of living, right? I call that cargo cult thinking. It's maintaining the forms of

00:04:19.620 traditional life, but without all of the other things that enable it, right? There's another

00:04:26.040 approach which says you should just give into it and become a libertine. And I disagree with that as

00:04:31.440 well. If you go onto my Twitter profile, you'll see that I call myself a paleo-futurist. And what I

00:04:38.160 mean by that is, I believe that we should try to take traditional values and project them into an

00:04:43.520 inevitable ultra-science future. And the question we should be asking is, what values are we trying to hold?

00:04:49.620 Not the forms by which we've held them. What values are we trying to hold and project them into this

00:04:55.340 future? Now, the reason surrogacy ever came up to me is because a whole bunch of my followers, young

00:05:00.200 men, were telling me they were doing this. That they had, most of them, in fact, I met with them

00:05:05.200 about a month ago in Austin. I went to an event and they all hooked up with me. I spent a lot of time

00:05:09.660 with one fellow who was already going to Argentina and is planning to do this and has already funded it.

00:05:14.920 And almost all of them said to me the same thing. I saw my dad destroyed by my mother

00:05:20.300 in divorce court. And they said it that way. They didn't say it was destroyed by the courts. They

00:05:25.080 said it was destroyed by their mother. And they do not intend to have that happen to them. And they

00:05:30.220 were taken from their fathers forcefully. And so their idea is to have children where they actually

00:05:34.940 have rights. And then they can get married to a woman, but she won't be able to take their children.

00:05:38.920 And I think it's a rational approach to dealing with the risks of marriage in the modern world.

00:05:43.760 That's a horrifying reality. It is. And I've also heard many similar stories. This is why you have,

00:05:50.040 it's not exactly why you have some of these groups like- Men go their own way. Yes, MGTOW.

00:05:54.680 Right. I'm opposed to MGTOW, by the way. Yeah. Do you want to- Oh, I want to.

00:06:01.700 Elaborate and give us your view. Absolutely. 100% sympathetic to Jeff's position. He is absolutely

00:06:06.760 correct about how the divorce courts stack the deck against men and against fathers. And very

00:06:12.300 often allow the woman to weaponize the courts against men who all they want is to love and be

00:06:18.660 connected to their children. But then they end up paying through the nose for kids they never get to

00:06:23.040 see. And I feel bad for the men, but I'm enraged on behalf of the kids. Enraged. What they are losing,

00:06:30.760 what Jeff's sons have lost, is not something that can ever be quantified. Not at all. It's a

00:06:36.200 lifelong loss that they are going to, they're going to experience that wound forever. They're

00:06:40.440 being starved of not just the male love that all children need, but the biological identity that

00:06:46.280 comes from being raised by their own dad. I mean, what the courts have done to Jeff and what they

00:06:50.980 are doing to thousands of other men across this country is criminal. And you see why I love Katie

00:06:56.280 Fowles. And that is why one of the planks that then before us is to fight no-fault divorce,

00:07:01.440 which very, very often hands the most power to the women.

00:07:05.300 No-fault divorce is probably the proximate cause of all this.

00:07:07.960 I agree. But let's talk surrogacy.

00:07:10.400 Well, actually, I was going to say, as we're introducing these ideas of why is there even

00:07:16.420 a conversation about surrogacy, perhaps we should pause and talk about no-fault divorce,

00:07:20.440 which is the legal change and the social change.

00:07:22.580 We must talk about no-fault divorce.

00:07:23.860 Yeah. And then surrogacy is very much a technological advance. Were it not possible

00:07:30.560 to do IVF, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

00:07:32.740 That's right.

00:07:33.440 But before we even get into the science of how society is changing, I think no-fault divorce,

00:07:37.900 we've talked about it quite a bit. I think this is a cause of a massive amount of problems

00:07:42.200 and contention today.

00:07:43.640 Yeah. So the way that we talk about it then before us is functionally what children are right now is

00:07:48.820 accessories to be cut and pasted into any and every adult relationship, right?

00:07:52.840 We have an understanding of parental rights to their children, but we don't have an idea

00:07:56.960 of children's rights to their own parents. And those actually go together, right? People care

00:08:01.800 which baby they take home from the hospital. They don't want just any kid in the nursery.

00:08:04.860 They actually want their baby. There's something precious and special about taking your own

00:08:08.660 child home. There is something distinct and wonderful about your own progeny. And we can get

00:08:14.500 into adoption later, but we all, I mean, there was that ridiculous article like last week that was

00:08:19.460 like wanting your own biological children is, what was it called? It was a racist. I know she

00:08:25.400 equated it with white supremacy or whatever it was. And that is like all of these arguments. And I

00:08:30.320 think where we're going with your argument, Jeff, is this idea that you're going to be able to overhaul

00:08:33.820 human nature. No matter how technology changes, no matter how law changes, no matter how culture

00:08:39.560 changes, you cannot overhaul child nature. And children have a natural right to be known and loved by

00:08:46.500 both of their biological parents. Those two adults grant children statistically the safest home

00:08:51.780 that they're going to experience. Like if your wife remarries, the man that joins her life will

00:08:57.320 never be as statistically connected to, invested in, and protective of your sons as you are.

00:09:02.940 They'll be one of the greatest threats to them.

00:09:04.680 That's correct. This is right. Not only will he not be as connected and invested, he will statistically

00:09:09.800 be one of the most dangerous people in their life. Okay. So we have to get very clear about

00:09:14.440 children having a right to their own mother and father. The threats that have

00:09:18.880 disconnected children from that are cultural, legal, and technological. So we'll be talking

00:09:24.300 about one of the technological shifts that have commodified children and turned them into functional

00:09:29.000 accessories. But the legal shifts have also been at play since the late 60s, and it began with no-fault

00:09:35.900 divorce. No-fault divorce was the first, in essence, redefinition of the family. It transformed what

00:09:42.180 used to be the most child-friendly institution the world has ever known, marriage, into just

00:09:46.860 another vehicle of adult fulfillment. It said, we used to have this idea that marriage was going to

00:09:51.240 be permanent. And the only time you would break it up is if one spouse was found to be at fault of

00:09:56.740 abuse, adultery, abandonment, addiction. But we turned to no-fault divorce. And since women have

00:10:02.920 sort of higher rates of emotional expectation, they tend to be dissatisfied more quickly in the marriage.

00:10:10.400 And when you can get out of it for no-fault, they get out of it sooner. So that was the original

00:10:16.160 redefinition of marriage and legally what put all of this in place when it comes to treating children

00:10:21.580 as accessories. No-fault divorce is just the end of marriage. Marriage does not exist.

00:10:27.200 That's right.

00:10:27.800 There's a... People have mentioned covenant marriage, I think it's called, in like Alabama. I'm not sure what

00:10:32.540 other states have it. And this is them trying to recodify what actual marriage is.

00:10:36.740 Yeah. But there is, you know, quite literally, if you enter into a spiritual, moral, and legal contract

00:10:42.600 till death do us part, but the legal has been completely removed, and the moral foundations of

00:10:48.200 society have become dissociative or fractured, then you quite literally are just dating.

00:10:53.460 Right.

00:10:53.700 But we've seen these fling marriages for a year or two. You see all these celebrities,

00:10:57.860 they're married for five years, and then they're broken up. That's not marriage.

00:11:02.280 Right.

00:11:02.720 It is not marriage. And this gives me the opportunity. I really think productive

00:11:07.280 discussions start from what the Greeks used to call stasis, where people agree.

00:11:11.560 For real.

00:11:12.000 Because then we can reason out from where we agree and try to achieve clarity where we disagree,

00:11:16.420 and maybe even overcome those disagreements.

00:11:18.540 Jeff and I agree on a lot, I think.

00:11:19.800 Oh, yeah. I don't disagree, actually, with anything she said. That may surprise you. I think the intact

00:11:25.180 nuclear family with one mother and one father is the best thing for children, objectively the best thing,

00:11:32.140 it's also the most enduring institution in human history. It actually predates history.

00:11:37.200 Correct.

00:11:37.400 It goes back before written history.

00:11:39.200 This is right.

00:11:39.620 It's the most enduring institution, the most successful institution ever, so I'm all in favor

00:11:44.980 of that. I am concerned with notions of children's rights. We can talk about why that is.

00:11:50.920 We can.

00:11:51.240 But one of the fundamental things that we lost, and I think we lost it with the enlightenment,

00:11:59.000 but it really showed up in the American conception of rights. People have come to think of rights as

00:12:04.740 floating abstractions, right? But all rights come with concomitant duties.

00:12:09.620 That's right.

00:12:09.960 To me, children's rights are the prudent exercise of parental rights, right? We have to be careful

00:12:18.340 with the child's best interest, too, because courts have misused that, as you know.

00:12:23.300 That's right.

00:12:24.060 And there's no real objective child's best interest for everything. There are some objective things,

00:12:30.820 like, for example, having a mother and father. I am, on the other hand, not an idealist.

00:12:35.460 But I am dealing with the world as it actually is today, with the political situation as it

00:12:41.280 actually is today, where over half of children are being raised in single mother homes. And in

00:12:47.300 that world, men have to be very serious about protecting themselves before they have children

00:12:52.280 or before they get married.

00:12:53.640 This is interesting because you mentioned someone going to, I think you said Argentina.

00:12:57.700 Yes.

00:12:58.320 Fresh and Fit talked about something called Passport Bros.

00:13:00.880 Yeah.

00:13:01.260 These are guys who know they can't or who believe they cannot find a wife in the United States

00:13:07.000 because of the culture, the moral frameworks this country has. So they go to other countries.

00:13:12.860 With traditional values.

00:13:14.360 But also a lower standard of living.

00:13:16.600 Yeah.

00:13:16.800 So they're viewed more favorably. Like they mentioned going to the Philippines.

00:13:20.360 Yeah.

00:13:20.800 Where the standard of living is low. So you have these young women who see an American come here.

00:13:25.140 They're wealthy. They have access. And that is attractive to them. And they,

00:13:29.660 so you're going to end up with a wife who is more committed and actually more worried about the

00:13:33.940 relationship breaking apart. Whereas in America, you have the feminist, you know, more woke vision

00:13:39.120 where women can have it all, do what they want and leave whenever they want. And courts will favor

00:13:42.980 them if they do.

00:13:43.900 Yeah. So there's a lot of work to be done, but the answer cannot be.

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00:15:13.900 Whatever work needs to be done in culture, in law, and in technology, and there is a lot to be done,

00:15:20.520 the answer cannot be a kid is going to sacrifice for me. I understand the system is broken. I

00:15:24.820 understand the technology is advancing way beyond our ethical conversations, but the solution can

00:15:29.440 never be this kid sacrifices so I can have what they want. And ultimately, that's what surrogacy does

00:15:34.920 in 100% of cases.

00:15:35.700 I don't actually believe the sacrifice of a single father home is equivalent to the sacrifice of a

00:15:42.280 single mother home. Single father homes have outcomes which are much better than single mother

00:15:47.440 homes, and it's substantially close to two-parent homes, so they're not as good.

00:15:53.720 I'd like to see that. Is that in the brief that you gave me?

00:15:56.980 It is not in these two, but I can get you one. I can get you two, actually.

00:16:00.640 I know that there's a few studies, but what studies do you have that show outcomes for

00:16:06.240 children who were motherless at birth? There's two studies. One of them has a

00:16:12.100 subpopulation study. For example, it does find that there's less criminality, higher college

00:16:17.900 attainment, less suicidality.

00:16:20.220 Equivalent to the two-parent married biological parents?

00:16:22.640 No, no. Between single mother homes and single father homes.

00:16:25.240 Versus single father. Sure. Okay.

00:16:26.540 And then the subpopulation study here, which I have to be honest, subpopulation studies are less

00:16:31.980 conclusive. But the subpopulation studies, they say, well, of these single father homes,

00:16:36.020 which ones were from illness? Deaths like that, and accidental deaths. And they find the same

00:16:41.360 effects. The effects are similar, although it's not conclusive.

00:16:44.060 You're saying similar between the child whose mother died versus the child whose mother left

00:16:48.000 through divorce?

00:16:49.000 Yes.

00:16:49.360 Okay.

00:16:49.620 On single father homes. Now, this echoes, actually, I'm Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox Church

00:16:54.000 did a longitudinal study of church attendance for children who go to college into these sort

00:17:00.460 of atheist communist factories. And how many continue to attend church? And the only thing

00:17:07.380 that correlated with church attendance was whether the father brought them.

00:17:10.160 Oh, that's why men need to be the head of the home and the head of the church.

00:17:13.160 Well, so this is an interesting point. You say that the study, I guess what you're saying

00:17:18.020 is that single parent with a father have better outcomes, but I wonder if it's just that we're...

00:17:25.620 Then single mother parented homes. Not better outcomes than married mother father.

00:17:28.760 Of course. But I'm wondering if we're not tracking the detriments of not having a mom.

00:17:32.820 So here's the thing. People will say to me, because I fight surrogacy at every front in

00:17:37.320 every way, traditional gestational altruistic commercial, I don't care. It is always the

00:17:42.540 intentional loss of a child's mother on the day that they are born. And we can... I'll give you the

00:17:46.620 children's rights framework if you want. But people will say, well, we have lots of data.

00:17:50.860 Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin had this conversation where they said, oh, there's so much data about

00:17:55.420 the harms of father loss. But there's not a lot about mother loss. There's not a lot of studies

00:18:00.780 about what happens when a child grows up motherless. And the question is why? Why do you think that is,

00:18:05.420 Tim? Well, I want to just clarify the point. When you're looking at a study and you say,

00:18:10.800 let's look at drug abuse, college attainment, crime. And you're like, hey, look, if a child has just a

00:18:15.800 dad, they tend to do better than if they have just a mom. But what aren't we tracking between

00:18:21.740 a child who has both parents and a child who doesn't have a mom? If in our minds...

00:18:26.920 And I would say, why is it even harder to find the kids raised only by a single dad? Because those

00:18:31.540 households are harder to find. And when you're talking about good studies, you can't just be

00:18:35.600 like, hey, single dads, come volunteer for this. You have to find them at random. They are hard to

00:18:39.280 find at random because there's not a lot of them. And my question is why?

00:18:41.820 Well, there's another weakness too, I'll tell you about. There's another weakness in those studies,

00:18:45.440 in my studies I'm talking about.

00:18:46.480 Yeah.

00:18:47.080 But just my immediate assumption is, and I mean, this is no disrespect. I mean, if we're looking at

00:18:53.540 children who grew up without fathers, they have a higher rate of criminality, lower rate of

00:18:56.980 finishing school. I'd imagine that a child who grew up without a mother probably has emotional

00:19:02.460 issues we're not tracking.

00:19:03.860 So correct.

00:19:04.480 Could be.

00:19:05.300 I think that's... Yeah. And we don't look at the statistics of,

00:19:08.860 you know, is someone more prone to anger or more detached or callous?

00:19:13.380 We have no reason to look into these things.

00:19:15.560 Or relationship formation.

00:19:17.140 Right.

00:19:17.580 Attachment, bonding, trust, levels of sensitivity to one another, ability to form formations.

00:19:23.420 I mean, I'm parenting a child who did not have any parents, had no mother for the first two

00:19:29.540 years of his life. It is very, very difficult for kids. Well, we can talk about the distinctiveness

00:19:34.340 of mothering if you want. But I want to get back to this question of why is it that we have

00:19:39.060 endless studies on the impact of father loss in children and fatherlessness, but we have very,

00:19:44.660 very few on mother loss.

00:19:45.960 Patriarchy.

00:19:46.900 Oh, it's the patriarchy.

00:19:47.840 It's the patriarchy.

00:19:48.680 No, it's...

00:19:49.140 I'm only half kidding.

00:19:50.520 Okay.

00:19:51.160 Our perspective on society, these studies, is quite literally the detriment in the immediate.

00:19:59.340 Crime is something we have to deal with and solve.

00:20:01.640 But if someone's got emotional issues, we just say, oh, that dude's got an ego problem.

00:20:06.340 Let's be honest.

00:20:06.760 It's hard to measure.

00:20:07.440 That's right.

00:20:07.920 So I'm going to give you the answer. The reason why we don't have studies, longitudinal done,

00:20:13.900 where you can find the kids at random, database populations, adequate control groups. Why don't

00:20:19.320 we have those? Because mother loss is so foreign to our species. What happens when a child is

00:20:24.900 created? Both the man and woman have to be there at the moment of conception. Biology requires about

00:20:30.580 average three to five minute contribution from the guy. Okay. What does it require of the woman?

00:20:35.920 Is that really the average?

00:20:37.080 It's the average.

00:20:37.500 I hope not.

00:20:38.420 It's the average. What does it require of the woman? It insists that she's there for the first

00:20:44.600 nine and a half months. She can't leave. The baby can't leave. And then afterwards...

00:20:48.940 Well, hold on. Hold on.

00:20:49.640 Yes.

00:20:49.920 Just interject.

00:20:50.860 Okay.

00:20:51.900 Removing technology from the equation, the mother is required to be there for a substantially

00:20:55.460 longer amount of time after the nine months.

00:20:56.940 Right. And do you know what? So not only is she literally connected to the child,

00:21:02.620 there's no other person in our existence, unless you become a mother yourself, where you are

00:21:06.900 connected by a literal cord. That's how connected mother and baby are. Now, before we had technology,

00:21:12.060 before we had bottles, or if you didn't have a wet nurse, the mom died, the baby died.

00:21:15.960 Yeah.

00:21:16.380 Our species does not have a lot of experience with motherless babies because babies cannot live

00:21:22.220 without mothers.

00:21:22.860 I don't agree with this.

00:21:23.260 Well, so perhaps now the answer is inducing lactation in men so the men can...

00:21:27.820 Well, Tim, that does solve everything, doesn't it?

00:21:30.720 But continue.

00:21:31.500 No. Prior to modern medical technology, female death rates in birthing were very high.

00:21:40.800 Right.

00:21:41.320 Actually, our species is well adapted to mother loss, and it has been with us for a long time.

00:21:46.780 That doesn't mean, however, I'm not stretching this to mean that the problems that we're talking

00:21:51.600 about of motherless not being well studied. I think the real reason is that motherlessness

00:21:56.500 is just comparatively much more rare in modern society.

00:22:00.580 And you have a hard time even getting study groups to do it.

00:22:03.840 So, right.

00:22:04.460 Our main social problem is father loss, and that's why.

00:22:07.380 Because biology, again, women are working within a chemical system. Once the baby is born,

00:22:14.060 during pregnancy and childbirth especially, and then especially once you start breastfeeding,

00:22:18.480 there is oxytocin spikes in the woman that literally will chemically bond her to the baby.

00:22:24.120 The baby is bonded to her. And that happens on the regular for the first couple years of a

00:22:29.200 child's life.

00:22:29.780 It's even deeper than that. I'll give you an example from my own children's birth.

00:22:32.980 So, you know that I used IVF.

00:22:34.960 I do.

00:22:35.380 Right? So, my children are not genetically related to my ex-wife.

00:22:39.780 Okay? So, they're only genetically related to me.

00:22:42.280 And this is the son that you were having...

00:22:43.960 Both of them.

00:22:44.420 Both of them.

00:22:44.860 Legal issue.

00:22:45.280 Both of them.

00:22:45.880 Interesting.

00:22:46.560 So, when Jude was born, he would have died without modern medical intervention. And he

00:22:53.340 came out very traumatized. And, you know, I was the first one to hold him. And he went

00:23:01.500 straight to the NICU. And he was dying. Straight up dying.

00:23:05.000 So, they have this thing where they often have the mother come into the NICU and touch

00:23:10.500 the child. And the mere touch of the mother can cause a healing response in the child.

00:23:17.220 Wow.

00:23:17.340 So, not knowing that we had used IVF, they asked my ex-wife to go in and do this. And

00:23:22.500 it had no effect.

00:23:23.380 Wow.

00:23:23.780 And then, when they found out IVF was used, they called me in there. And I just put my

00:23:28.840 hand on my... And I'll never forget this. My son was dying. And I touched his back. And

00:23:39.080 I put my hand on his back. And in five minutes, he went to normal.

00:23:43.800 Wow.

00:23:46.160 He needed you then. He needs you now. And it's a crime. It's a crime that he's not with

00:23:50.060 you.

00:23:50.840 Well, so this brings up the question about surrogacy and IVF. I mean, there's...

00:23:55.780 See, I don't dispute any of this. This is not what I'm talking about with surrogacy.

00:23:59.760 So, you can... I think your argument's probably going to be very effective from a men's right

00:24:04.140 position. It's not going to be effective from a children's rights position.

00:24:07.120 Yeah. I don't even take the men's rights position. What I claim is... I'm actually just claiming

00:24:13.960 this on a basic social level. That we are going to destroy the lives of half the men that

00:24:20.040 get married and the children in those marriages. Right? And I think we will have far less social

00:24:27.200 damage if we have a nation of single fathers than single mothers. And what I'm doing is

00:24:32.920 not comparing against the ideal, which we agree on.

00:24:35.440 Right.

00:24:35.580 And I love you for promoting this ideal. Right? I mean, I firmly agree with you on it. I'm saying

00:24:43.380 in the real world where we exist today, in the legal framework, this horrifying legal framework

00:24:48.280 that governs marriage, the way we reduce damage the most is to prevent fathers' lives from being

00:24:54.120 destroyed so that they can be with their kids.

00:24:56.140 My view is, you know, I can certainly agree with a lot of what you're saying.

00:25:00.480 Yeah. It's really not a men's rights issue.

00:25:02.100 We need to make sure there's a balance between, you know, fathers and mothers and the rights of

00:25:10.220 the children. We want to keep the families together.

00:25:12.120 Yeah.

00:25:12.560 But I don't necessarily agree. I understand that the data we have so far shows that in the immediate,

00:25:19.480 the things we care about the most without a father, crime, et cetera.

00:25:23.260 Yes.

00:25:23.800 But I have to say, I think if you have a society where there is a disproportionate amount of

00:25:29.780 motherless children, you are going to have a dysfunctional society in some other way.

00:25:34.760 Well, I think it's only necessary for my argument that it'd be no worse than the current society.

00:25:39.420 Right.

00:25:39.640 We can avoid destroying half of the men who get married. And so my argument only requires that

00:25:45.080 it'd be no worse. And I claim that it is no worse.

00:25:47.000 So let me break down what surrogacy is from the children's rights perspective.

00:25:51.020 What surrogacy is at its core is the trifurcation of the mother. Okay. There are three different

00:25:58.500 components of the mother that surrogacy in essence splices and gives you purchasable and optional

00:26:04.000 choices about the woman involved. So the three different women that you're splitting up in

00:26:08.120 surrogacy is the genetic mother. That's the woman who contributes the egg. And that is the one that

00:26:14.340 grants children their biological identity. When kids go to bed at night and try to figure out like,

00:26:18.520 who am I? Where did I get my hair? What's my ethnicity? Does my mother know who I am? Does

00:26:24.280 she think about me? Do I have half siblings? They're thinking about their genetic mother,

00:26:27.800 the woman who the big fertility world will say, oh, she's just a donor. You can go right now and

00:26:33.240 Google egg donor catalog, and you can filter the results for your child's genetic mother based on

00:26:37.180 hair color, Ivy League education, all of that. I mean, you're shopping for your child's mother.

00:26:41.820 Sperm donors too. Same with sperm donation, right? And so the egg donor is the first mother. And then

00:26:47.940 the second mother is the birth mother. Okay. And the big surrogacy people will just pitch this as,

00:26:53.880 well, she's not a mother, right? She's just an oven for somebody else's bun. But the reality is that

00:26:59.800 that is the only relationship that the child has at the moment they are born. They don't know that

00:27:04.960 they're not genetically related to the person giving birth to them. Your kids didn't know that your wife

00:27:09.600 was not their genetic mother, but that's her body, her voice, her smell, her milk. That's who

00:27:14.580 she, that's what they wanted, right? And that is the foundation for trust and attachment in a child's

00:27:20.360 life. So for example, we have almost 60 years of experience with infant adoption and largely

00:27:28.280 children who have been adopted as infants are adopted into homes that are, have more stable marriages

00:27:33.520 where the people are more wealthy, more highly educated, and statistically even spend more time

00:27:38.660 with kids than the average biological parent. And yet adoptees do not fare as well. They struggle

00:27:44.480 more in school. They have more challenges with trust and attachment, identity issues.

00:27:51.500 And adoptees call that a primal wound. They were wounded at the most primal stages of their

00:27:56.620 development because they were cut off from the first and only relationship that they had,

00:28:00.840 and they had to start over. Okay. So that's the birth mother. And then the social mother

00:28:05.320 is the woman that provides that female specific love for the kid. And men cannot do that. Men do not

00:28:12.820 do that. And here's a few examples. Um, you know, women have a lower tolerance for children's cries,

00:28:18.300 right? We hear a baby crying. This happened to me at the airport. There was a baby crying and I was like,

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00:29:17.500 pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. When you really care about someone,

00:29:23.680 you shout it from the mountaintops. So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet

00:29:29.300 above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized

00:29:36.860 to your needs. Weird. I don't remember saying that part. Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get

00:29:43.720 insurance that's really big on care. Did I mention that we care?

00:29:50.360 Get the baby. I just wanted to get up and be like, give me the baby. Men are like, she'll be okay.

00:29:57.360 Here's a few Cheerios. And it's okay to have those different styles. But when babies are in distress,

00:30:02.800 they're wet, they're tired, they're hungry, their cortisol levels rise. They cannot drop their own

00:30:09.300 cortisol levels. They are literally incapable. Erica Komazar would say they don't have a central

00:30:14.000 nervous system at this point. The only way for their stress levels to drop is for their oxytocin

00:30:19.880 to increase. They can't express their own oxytocin. Only skin-to-skin contact will do that. And only

00:30:25.640 mothers have the level of responsiveness that will constantly bring down their cortisol levels

00:30:31.280 dozens and dozens of times every day and thereby establish that ability to emotionally regulate.

00:30:37.660 So here's the thing. Surrogacy breaks women up into genetic mother, birth mother, and social

00:30:42.980 mother. None of these women are optional in the life of the child. And if they are not found in one

00:30:48.320 woman, that kid is going to experience loss. I just want to highlight one thing. I agree with all

00:30:51.860 that. I agree with all the negatives that she said about surrogacy. I just want to highlight one thing

00:30:55.860 real quick because this is something I had read about quite a bit throughout my life. I just did a

00:30:59.680 quick Google search. The West Virginia Department of Health and Human Resources says babies who are

00:31:04.360 deprived of touch can fail to thrive, lose weight, and even die. And what I've been told,

00:31:11.280 what I've read, you know, and that's not something I follow, but you know, 10 years ago,

00:31:14.920 I'm reading articles on this stuff that if a baby is without touch from the mother,

00:31:18.520 it literally just dies. That's right. That's crazy. I mean, and the story you told Jeff,

00:31:23.260 there's something, I don't know if you'd call it. There's something legit about it.

00:31:25.780 Spiritual or divine or something. Again, I agree with everything you're saying.

00:31:27.800 We don't really dispute the facts here. We're not. Well, it sounds like then if we recognize

00:31:33.800 it is a detriment that we go through IVF and surrogacy because of what the legal system is

00:31:40.940 doing, then it seems like the solution should be to change the culture in the legal system.

00:31:44.580 Yes. That's correct.

00:31:45.260 So here's, but here's where we get into the sticky area of policy, right? I never speak about social

00:31:52.120 problems in terms of solutions, right? These problems have been with us. Look, infanticide

00:31:58.280 and giving babies away were existing. How do you find, you know how you find Roman brothers

00:32:04.100 when archeologists find Roman brothers? The bones of the dead children.

00:32:07.020 The bones of dead boys.

00:32:08.300 Boys, that's right.

00:32:09.340 They find dead, because they kill all the male babies. They're of no economic use. They raise

00:32:13.000 girl children up to be prostitutes in these brothers. So that's how they find them. Okay. So like,

00:32:18.420 this is an ancient problem. It's never going away from us, but we should think of

00:32:22.100 in terms of mitigating these problems and minimizing them. And that's a better way of thinking about

00:32:26.440 them, I think. So I don't ever talk in terms of solutions. The solution is, I believe, ending

00:32:32.020 no fault divorce, right? Completely ending no fault divorce. And I would be even willing

00:32:36.920 to compromise because we live in a world, a democracy where we have to, I would compromise

00:32:40.980 and say, you may have no fault divorce if there are no children in the marriage. If there

00:32:45.760 are children in the marriage, it converts to a no fault divorce.

00:32:48.700 I like that.

00:32:49.020 And now we have created a way for people to-

00:32:51.780 You mean it converts off of no fault divorce?

00:32:54.360 You would have to go to an at-fault model at that point.

00:32:56.160 Yeah. You go to an at-fault model when you have children.

00:32:58.220 Okay.

00:32:58.500 Yeah?

00:32:58.780 Yeah.

00:32:59.200 So, and I'm willing to compromise with people who want these sort of what I call emotional

00:33:03.580 marriages. I'm willing, okay, fine. Let's do that. I think we have to do some other

00:33:08.380 things with correcting the legal system around domestic violence and some other stuff. There

00:33:14.240 are legal ways to do this. I'm just telling you that you're fighting because of Title IV-D

00:33:18.960 reimbursements to the states, which are heavily invested in divorce and only exist when fathers

00:33:24.800 are out of the home, just like the welfare system destroyed the black families in this

00:33:28.060 country. When these systems are so big, I mean, you're talking about trillions of dollars. These

00:33:33.260 are bigger than some of the largest defense programs.

00:33:35.000 Jeff is the first one that educated me on this reality.

00:33:36.960 Yeah.

00:33:37.060 He really knows this.

00:33:37.800 Yeah. They're larger than some of the largest defense programs and we can't get rid of

00:33:42.460 these defense programs. The Marine Corps and the army have been trying to get rid of the

00:33:46.180 heavy division concept since the 1980s when I was in the military and they can't get rid

00:33:50.100 of it. So my problem is it's going to take five generations to get to alter these laws.

00:33:56.560 What do we do about men in the meantime?

00:33:58.060 Here's the issue with converting to an at-fault divorce upon, first it would have to be upon

00:34:03.140 conception.

00:34:03.960 Yes.

00:34:04.640 But then you run into the problem of people who aren't married, who conceive.

00:34:07.800 Yes.

00:34:08.260 Do we then say the moment there is a conception between men and women, you are now in an

00:34:12.580 at-fault marriage or an at-fault divorce system. You are married now. The other issue

00:34:17.520 is.

00:34:18.260 Yes.

00:34:19.400 Then, but how do you prove the baby is the man's?

00:34:22.320 Genetic testing.

00:34:23.320 But if the woman is only a few weeks pregnant, she's not far along enough to actually do the

00:34:27.520 genetic testing.

00:34:28.220 Amniocentesis can do that.

00:34:29.220 At any time.

00:34:29.800 Yes.

00:34:30.400 You know, it does seem kind of brutal and invasive that, to be fair, I mean, if a dude in

00:34:37.640 pregnant is a woman, he should not be allowed to leave.

00:34:39.520 When we get into the details of the laws, we could, again, I would compromise and say,

00:34:43.280 okay, you become a prospective no-fault marriage partner until the birth of the child when it's

00:34:50.120 genetically tested. We could do that. I'm fine with that.

00:34:52.900 Well, but the problem there is-

00:34:53.980 My point is-

00:34:54.860 The testing would have to be, we have seen stories. There was one story, I think it was

00:34:58.480 out of Wisconsin, where a woman got pregnant. When she gave birth, she listed some random

00:35:03.660 guy she knew as the father. I think it was Wisconsin. And then the guy was like, what?

00:35:07.860 I'm not the father. Got a genetic test.

00:35:09.620 Yes.

00:35:09.740 Proved that he wasn't. And the judge said, don't know, don't care. The baby needs a

00:35:12.740 dad. So you are now on the hook for it.

00:35:14.040 Well, that is not, that's an aberration.

00:35:16.240 Right.

00:35:16.500 Oh, actually, I'm sorry. You need to, y'all need to look up Carnell West, who started the

00:35:21.680 movement against this. But until, I can tell you this, in Texas, until 2014, all children

00:35:29.820 in the marriage were presumed to be the husbands.

00:35:31.740 And that's actually how it should be. That's actually why-

00:35:34.380 What about when the woman has an affair?

00:35:35.880 It's called a presumption of parenthood.

00:35:37.620 What about when she has an affair?

00:35:38.640 Well, so then you can, you need to presume. The presumption is correct. You should presume

00:35:43.740 that the children born to a marriage are the genetic offspring. If there's a problem, that's

00:35:48.600 the exception. Deal with the exception. I don't think that he should be responsible for a child,

00:35:51.760 but the presumption is correct.

00:35:53.560 The problem is that, well, we used to do that, like for all of, almost all of Western law,

00:35:58.500 we presume this.

00:35:59.460 Right.

00:35:59.700 Right? But the issue comes when, you know, what are the conditions under which you can

00:36:06.100 demonstrate that the child isn't yours and be relieved of your obligations, right? Most states

00:36:11.720 did not have a way to do that until just the last six years. You know, Carnell, for example,

00:36:18.760 I've talked to him at length about this. I mean, he paid child support for 15 years for a child that

00:36:23.960 wasn't his, and they just wouldn't stop, even though they had genetic tests.

00:36:27.060 Wow.

00:36:27.460 Texas never allowed genetic tests until, I think it was 2014.

00:36:31.140 That's too bad.

00:36:31.760 California says that fathers may never genetically test their children without the consent of the

00:36:37.380 mother, so they're allowed to hide it.

00:36:38.960 Yeah.

00:36:39.240 Wow.

00:36:39.440 So like, I agree that we have got to overhaul the system so that there are advantages

00:36:46.660 financially, socially, for men to commit to the women that they're making babies with.

00:36:51.500 And yeah, it's good for men and women, but it's non-negotiable for the babies.

00:36:56.420 Like, from a children's rights perspective, we have got to start changing culture, law,

00:37:01.840 and technology so kids have both.

00:37:03.440 This is where it comes down to. Look, I'm with you. I'll tell you how much I'm with you.

00:37:07.600 Even after my ex-wife tried to transition my son, for five years, I still told her I'd

00:37:13.700 remarry her and raise our kids.

00:37:15.140 Can we just pause?

00:37:16.040 Even though I have a total disagreement with her about that. But it's that important. I believe it,

00:37:19.740 right?

00:37:20.040 Yeah.

00:37:20.200 My point is that, are we going to compare what men should do against an ideal that doesn't exist

00:37:27.060 and won't exist for decades? Or what do we tell men in the meantime?

00:37:32.120 Culture, law, and technology don't reflect the ideal. That is true. The answer is not to remake

00:37:38.640 children in your own technological image. That is not the solution. You can go to Argentina. You can

00:37:44.040 marry a woman. Just make sure that you raise your kids with the woman that is their mother.

00:37:47.260 Well, there's actually a Christian way to actually do surrogacy in a way.

00:37:50.200 No, there's not.

00:37:50.820 So you have legal surrogacy, but you don't actually use somebody else's eggs. So for

00:37:55.220 example, I've checked in three states, and there's nothing that prevents a married woman

00:38:00.100 from entering a surrogacy contract. So you could get married, you have your wife sign a

00:38:06.520 surrogacy contract, and then you have conjugal relations in a biblical way, and then the children

00:38:12.880 belong to the father, and the mother has the legal relation of a stepmother.

00:38:16.520 Interesting. But she's still the biological mother in every way.

00:38:18.780 Yes.

00:38:19.160 That's horrifying.

00:38:20.200 Yeah, that's what that is.

00:38:21.240 No, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Why do you find it horrifying? Because-

00:38:25.600 Because every woman I've talked to says this.

00:38:27.420 Because the biological mother, the birth mother, the social mother should all also be

00:38:32.080 the legal mother. You do not splice woman into three different parts, the social, the legal,

00:38:36.680 and the genetic. From a children's rights perspective, all of those women need to be found

00:38:41.300 in one place. And just like it was an injustice to strip you of your rights to your children,

00:38:46.320 even though you're the biological father. It's an injustice to strip children of their mothers.

00:38:50.600 Now, would you marry under such a condition?

00:38:53.640 I-

00:38:53.800 Would you marry under those conditions? If a man said, hey, I want you to sign a surrogacy contract

00:38:57.400 so the children are mine in a patriarchal and biblical sense, there belong to me. Would you

00:39:02.140 marry and have a child under those conditions?

00:39:03.800 I married and had a child with a man who 100% gets 100% claim to my children. And I don't

00:39:09.500 need surrogacy to do it.

00:39:10.080 Not legally. You have the claim to the children.

00:39:11.860 No, we both have a claim to the children. If I were to divorce him, there's a possibility

00:39:15.160 the courts would side with me.

00:39:16.420 Yes, they probably would.

00:39:17.000 But no, right now-

00:39:17.800 Hold on, Tim. I'm going somewhere with this. Do you think most women would do that? Or do

00:39:21.180 you think- I think precisely zero women would sign a surrogacy.

00:39:23.260 I agree.

00:39:24.220 What this tells me is that when we put women in the same conditions that fathers are in today,

00:39:28.600 they choose not to have children and not to marry. Which proves my point that under the current

00:39:32.400 conditions, surrogacy is a legitimate option.

00:39:34.800 I was going to say that your statement about legal surrogacy to the biological mother is very

00:39:40.480 logically sound and very emotionally horrifying.

00:39:43.280 Yes, it is. And so imagine how fathers feel when they are- when no offense, but trad women

00:39:50.640 are constantly telling young men to just suck it up, take the risk, and marry when we all admit

00:39:56.560 that precisely zero women would do that under the same conditions. Because the stepmother in this

00:40:01.680 scenario, being a constant caregiver to the child, would have the same visitation rights

00:40:06.160 as fathers have today. They would have continuous visitation, continuous relationship. The courts

00:40:09.920 would respect that.

00:40:10.560 I understand- I understand that the-

00:40:12.080 Women won't do it. Why should men?

00:40:13.280 I understand that it's risky, and the deck is stacked against them. I'm not seeing any man

00:40:21.200 who is living a happier, better life than the men who are married stably to the women and the

00:40:26.640 mothers of their children.

00:40:27.520 No, I agree.

00:40:28.160 I agree.

00:40:28.480 And that is something to strive for and is ideal, but I think Jeff is correct. The risks are there

00:40:34.240 for men.

00:40:34.640 Right.

00:40:34.880 And we end up seeing this reflected in a lot of online communities.

00:40:38.560 Yes.

00:40:38.960 Yes, that's right.

00:40:39.680 A lot of men are outright saying, I mean, with MGTOW.

00:40:42.000 Yes.

00:40:42.560 It's not- MGTOW is not absolutely about any one thing. There's a bunch of different issues,

00:40:46.080 but a lot of these men are saying, the risks are too great. Just- and Jeff makes a great

00:40:50.720 point. Just like a woman would say, I'm not going to enter that agreement. Men literally are saying that.

00:40:54.560 I know. I've read them. I've talked to them.

00:40:56.480 And what's disturbing is, you know, you find it horrifying. I find it horrifying. I mean,

00:41:01.280 it's a thought experiment. I'm not something- a lot of the stuff I'm talking about, people think

00:41:04.800 I'm proposing, they're thought experiments.

00:41:06.560 Right.

00:41:06.960 It's a thought experiment.

00:41:07.760 Well, and it's effective to point out the problems.

00:41:10.240 Yeah, that's right. Thank you.

00:41:11.280 Yeah.

00:41:11.600 Thank you, darling.

00:41:11.920 It's so-

00:41:12.880 I'm here for you.

00:41:13.440 No, no. It's like, it's very hard. Well, no. Women are rightly upset about me even proposing

00:41:19.040 that. But that is the exact position every father is in legally. Not necessarily

00:41:24.480 socially, but legally when they have children with a woman in a normal marriage under this

00:41:29.600 horrifying legal regime. And if women won't, again, I ask, if women won't do it, well, how

00:41:34.640 can we ethically tell young men to do it? I don't think we can.

00:41:37.280 Okay. Can I ask a question that I wanted to ask the very second that Jeff walked in?

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00:42:38.240 iGaming Ontario. When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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00:42:50.400 we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird,

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00:43:03.360 that's really big on care. Did I mention that we care?

00:43:10.080 I want to know how you're doing. Oh, wow. So, um, so, you know,

00:43:15.360 and I asked that for two reasons. Number one, I, I have mourned with you. I've prayed for you,

00:43:23.680 especially leading up to this conversation, but I actually think that it would be helpful

00:43:28.720 for everybody listening to understand how this has impacted you and the depths of, of pain that

00:43:38.000 you've experienced. So I just want to hear if you're willing to share, how are you doing?

00:43:41.920 And I'll try to do it in terms of women can understand, right? So, um, because I think men

00:43:46.560 understand it intuitively. It's hard for women to understand what men feel in these scenarios.

00:43:51.200 That's why I'm asking. And you care about that stuff, which makes you special. Um, so I've,

00:43:57.200 I've described it this way. Um, during the, the trial, um, I was being hyper-scrutinized for violent

00:44:05.120 behavior or any, you know, I, in court, I would, I would have judges, uh, bring bailiffs in, um,

00:44:11.840 if I move too aggressively to grab a pen or something, right? Well, no, they've, they've

00:44:15.680 completely pathologized all masculine behaviors. So, um, and I'm kind of big and I'm a bot,

00:44:20.560 they know I'm a boxer and all stuff. So that, you know, they're, they're on edge about it.

00:44:24.240 So I had to sit there calmly and be totally calm and, and have no emotional response as I'm

00:44:31.680 literally watching my son be sexually abused right in front of me. That's what was required of me to

00:44:36.080 save my sons. I accomplished that. So in 2019, I got 50, 50 custody, no child support. Right on. So,

00:44:42.320 uh, they, they recused my judge, the Dallas County Democrat judges in a corrupt proceeding,

00:44:47.680 got rid of my judge, put me in a non-random jury, uh, judge assignment, put me in the 301st

00:44:52.640 district district court with judge bloody Mary Brown. I named names of people and judge bloody

00:44:57.680 Mary Brown systematically stripped me of all my parental rights. She was an activist. Yeah.

00:45:02.240 And she let my son, uh, moved, let my ex-wife move my son to California right after they passed

00:45:07.840 the transgender kidnapping laws. So now I'm, I have to remain super calm because California has draconian,

00:45:14.400 uh, domestic violence. Because the previous agreement said she cannot do anything medically

00:45:18.720 to him without your consent. But now that she's in California, she can do whatever she wants.

00:45:21.920 And that was a jury verdict that was nullified by a judge. So, um, so have you seen them? Do you,

00:45:27.520 do you talk to them? So, um, I did two supervised visits with them. Um, and, um, you know, as soon

00:45:35.520 as I sat down on the couch, they just like laid on me and just jumped, just that it's that touch.

00:45:39.280 And when was that? Um, that was about three months ago. Oh, I'm glad that's the only contact

00:45:44.160 I've had in two years. Um, so now I've had to move to California. I went all the way up to the

00:45:49.280 Texas Supreme Court and the Texas Supreme Court, listen to this, said that my sons were no more

00:45:54.560 at risk of being chemically castrated in California under the transgender kidnapping laws than they

00:45:59.440 were in Texas where it's illegal. What the hell? Wow. Yeah. So what we have is a politicized court.

00:46:04.480 What's happening is the state courts are beginning to collude to allow children to migrate to trans-friendly

00:46:09.760 states. So I've established a residence in California and I've officially moved there.

00:46:14.320 I'm preparing my house in Texas to rent out and I've moved, you have to be careful. I moved about

00:46:19.520 30 minutes away from my boys and I'm going to fight in the California courts to have visitation. And I'm

00:46:25.680 also intend to go into the federal courts and challenge the, uh, the, the laws, the kidnapping

00:46:31.600 law plus the law that strips parents of their rights if they don't affirm their child.

00:46:35.120 I want to just say one thing because I think some people don't understand. Migtown means

00:46:39.440 men going their own way. Online communities where men talk about, you know, they'll post memes of

00:46:44.960 like a guy sitting on a cliffside with his dog and it'll say something like serenity or whatever.

00:46:48.880 Yeah. Um, but I, I will also add you moving to California, sir, is the political equivalent

00:46:53.840 of running into a burning building. You're correct. Yeah. So I, I, we have to talk about getting away

00:46:58.240 from cities and getting away from these jurisdictions if you can, and that we understand some people may

00:47:02.320 want to stay in these, in these places, um, because of their kids. Yeah. And a lot of people have said,

00:47:08.080 I can't move out of the city. You know, I got divorced. My kids are still, what am I supposed

00:47:11.040 to do? And I'm like that I view as your house is on fire and you refuse to leave until you know

00:47:15.520 your children are safe. I also want to point out that what Jeff is doing is the essence of true

00:47:21.040 manhood and the best kind of father. Um, the best, the best that fathers can be, which is utter protectiveness

00:47:28.000 and everything you can in terms of provision, despite everything being against you. And there

00:47:32.640 really is something distinct. Uh, I would say that it is a genetic biological drive that good men have.

00:47:40.560 Um, and every kid, every child should have a father like this.

00:47:45.760 This is the pain men feel. So, uh, you know, feminists have often said men don't participate

00:47:51.200 in child rearing equally all this. So that's not true. That's not true.

00:47:53.840 Uh, really until the 1950s, nobody was rich enough to do that, right? Throughout all of human history,

00:47:58.720 women raised young children in most, most civilizations, the age of nine, the reputation

00:48:05.040 that the Italians had for being mama's boys, because it was till 12, you know, that's where

00:48:08.800 that comes from. They stayed with their mother and then the boys went, went with the fathers.

00:48:13.280 And so girls and young children stayed with the mothers. Men have always equally participated

00:48:17.600 in child rearing. And what men feel particularly is this horrifying thing where your offspring are

00:48:25.920 going to be raised in values contrary to your ancestors and to your own values. And your,

00:48:32.880 your children would be turned against your own values. I have a friend in Houston

00:48:38.400 whose wife divorced him and converted his children to Islam. And he's a devout Christian.

00:48:42.480 His, his children have been turned against his values. You know, this is what men fear tremendously.

00:48:48.320 It's not just physical. This is what divorce enables. You know, there was a study done, um,

00:48:52.880 by a researcher named Elizabeth Margaret, who's who her study was called between two worlds. And it

00:48:57.680 studied the impact that divorce had on children. And in close to 50% of cases, the child developed two

00:49:04.720 different personalities because they had like mom had one political persuasion, you know, mom's a

00:49:09.920 Republican, dad's a Democrat, mom's a Buddhist, dad's a Republican, or, you know, a Christian,

00:49:14.640 you know, the screen limits over here are like one hour a day. There's unlimited screens over here,

00:49:19.280 dessert like this diet, like this, you know, my son was over here. Yes. And like they kids have to

00:49:26.640 transform to be a different person between dad house and mom's house. And actually your situation

00:49:31.280 was almost archetypal where your child had to literally become a different person at mom's house.

00:49:37.600 A girl at mom's house, a boy at dad's house. That's exactly right. And that is what a split

00:49:40.720 home does to you. Yeah. He never presented as a girl to me. He never presented as a girl to me.

00:49:43.200 Yeah. I remember seeing the videos. They were, you know, you're, you're asking your son and he's

00:49:46.960 like, no, I don't want to do that. Yeah. You cannot split your child into two different homes. They

00:49:50.240 develop two different lives and two different personalities. Yeah. Wow. That's why I'm cool. I'm,

00:49:54.480 I agree with you. I mean, I'm fine with forcing parents simply to stay together and raise their kids

00:49:58.800 to their 18. I'm sorry. You just got to do what you got to do. Yeah. And I, and I agree. And I think that

00:50:03.280 that's the laws I would like to see if it's an old Roman laws around marriage. This is the

00:50:07.200 interesting thing about the rights of the child. Uh, if the parents are fighting and it's bad,

00:50:12.080 not to the point of abuse, but screaming, I think they should be reprimanded by the court saying like,

00:50:16.800 you are obligated to stop and, and you have to tone it down because this is for the kids.

00:50:21.920 Yeah. So we don't want children growing up in an environment where parents are just screaming at

00:50:26.000 each other 24 seven. Yeah. And so the solution is the parents for that. Not the kids.

00:50:30.240 That's what I'm saying. You're hired, dude. You're totally hired. Here's, here's an interesting

00:50:34.560 thing about the rights of, of children, right? We often hear from, uh, the modern day left

00:50:39.680 establishment narratives that children have a right to just insert and you name it.

00:50:45.440 Yeah. To having their transgender identity hidden from the parents. They have a right to

00:50:49.200 testosterone from Planned Parenthood. But my view is it's more so, uh, uh, a right to your

00:50:56.160 parents acting responsibly to protect you. That's where I agree.

00:50:58.880 Meaning the child can't decide he wants to eat ice cream. That, that it is a violation

00:51:02.400 of the rights of the child for a parent to just give them three gallons of ice cream for breakfast,

00:51:06.240 lunch, and dinner. Okay. So here's the thing. Like I have a children's rights nonprofit and that is

00:51:11.840 the right word for it. The reality is that children's right to their own mother and father,

00:51:16.480 it actually might be too weak of a term. They have such a claim to their own parents that there really is

00:51:22.320 very little language we could use to describe the strength of that claim. Okay. So I understand that

00:51:26.400 rights is most fundamental human thing. It is like literally one of the most universal

00:51:30.320 human law and all human civilization is based on that one thing. That's right. And so children have

00:51:35.520 a right to be known and loved by their mother and father. They have a right to life. They have a right

00:51:40.000 to an intact body, an unmedicalized body. They have a right to innocence. It is the duty of parents to

00:51:46.080 protect those rights. I love that you're talking about duties. Well, they go together in natural law

00:51:50.560 theory, rights and duties are two sides of the same. That's correct. Okay. So you're exactly

00:51:55.200 right, Tim, that there's a lot of momentum on the right when it comes to parental rights. And that's

00:52:01.120 good. But parental rights has limits. You do not have a right to chemically sterilize your child

00:52:06.080 just because you think I'm the parent, I can do what I want. So I think parental rights are important,

00:52:11.040 but insufficient when it comes to child protection. That is why I use the language of children's

00:52:15.840 rights. Because just because an adult wants to do something like take their kid to drag queen story

00:52:20.080 hour, you don't have a parental right to corrupt your child's mind through these sexualizing

00:52:25.360 programs. I just want to point out what really bothers me is that it is a crime in, I don't

00:52:31.760 know if I can say most, but I can tell you that in many jurisdictions, because I've actually lived

00:52:35.920 in the laws, it is outright illegal to bring a child to a drag show. Yes. And the police just don't

00:52:41.680 do anything about it. They just don't do anything about it. Yeah, that's exactly right. And, and the,

00:52:45.680 the, the, the DAs don't do anything about it. The DAs could also get involved. Sheriffs could get

00:52:49.520 involved. Yep. Um, you know, we have sheriffs that just tolerate this stuff in my county. That's

00:52:54.000 in Texas where I used to live was definitely not the case. The sheriff would not allow it

00:52:57.680 and just shut it down. But here, here's the danger there. Everything has pluses and minuses,

00:53:02.560 right? The world's not, you know, a black and white. Um, the danger of children's rights is what we see in

00:53:10.320 the family courts today, where unfortunately we live in a decadent society. And I mean that in

00:53:16.240 the Latin sense, decadenced out of step with one another. There's no general agreement on what

00:53:23.440 constitutes what's, you know, good for a child in many circumstances. Um, so it, the, the notion of

00:53:30.720 children's rights could be used in such a way as to force parents in California to transition their

00:53:37.040 children. It is actually being used that way. Well, properly defining rights is important.

00:53:41.120 It's very much like the Incredibles. If everything is a right, nothing is a right.

00:53:44.320 Yeah. You do have to properly define what children's rights are.

00:53:47.360 And you want to give the widest scope to parenting, right? Because we recognize that

00:53:52.160 geographical and cultural conditions even in America are not identical.

00:53:55.280 Even just personality differences with kids.

00:53:57.280 Yeah. You literally couldn't, well, yeah, like my two sons, you know, did I ever tell you the story

00:54:00.960 about how I figured out their personality differences?

00:54:02.720 No, but I want to hear it because I love this kind of thing.

00:54:04.480 So I was, I was, um, I couldn't understand modern cartoons. Like I just don't even get

00:54:08.560 them. I can't even follow the plot. So I got the old Johnny quest cartoons, you know,

00:54:12.720 cause like they have real guns and people don't get up when you shoot them and stuff, you know?

00:54:16.480 And, uh, so we were watching the invisible monster, which I guess is one of the more popular ones for

00:54:20.960 the cartoon aficionados. And, uh, James was saying, you know, look at that monster. He's huge. He's

00:54:26.960 going to outrun bandit and bandit, you know, bandit can't get away, but Johnny's going to try,

00:54:30.880 you know, and Jude was going, bandit scared, you know, let monster, why is that monster so angry?

00:54:35.600 So I just realized it just hit me. Like Jude was living the inner life of these characters

00:54:40.400 and James was living the outer life. And I, at that moment I raised them completely different ways.

00:54:45.040 My way of motivating them and discipline them was never the same after that.

00:54:48.800 Well, this is why God did not say do this with every single kid. God gave every kid a mother and

00:54:54.960 a father who studies them, knows them, and is ultimately invested in them and can tailor make

00:54:59.120 their parenting approach based on what the child needs.

00:55:01.280 Here's, here's the test when they're old enough, you have them play fallout three.

00:55:06.320 Yes.

00:55:06.720 Or maybe, maybe Skyrim.

00:55:08.160 You're not going to be a bingo card.

00:55:09.360 Like how many times are we going to get to like the video game references?

00:55:11.840 He's not going to give me fallout four in, in not fallout four, but because the, the,

00:55:17.840 the reason I bring these games up is that in these games, you are, you have a list of abilities

00:55:23.600 that your character can improve upon every time you level up.

00:55:26.560 Right.

00:55:27.280 When I first played fallout three, I was introduced to it from a friend who was a Marine.

00:55:32.160 Okay.

00:55:32.560 His character was all about strength and big guns.

00:55:36.000 Right.

00:55:36.400 And I would watch him go into, you know, the bad guy area and he would have a mini gun and

00:55:41.360 just run and go, just mow everyone down.

00:55:43.360 Right.

00:55:43.760 And then I was like, this game looks crazy.

00:55:45.200 I like, I don't know if I want to play it.

00:55:46.560 You know, it's not really, he's like, well, just try it.

00:55:48.560 I'm going to work.

00:55:49.360 I played it.

00:55:50.160 My character was a sniper who snuck around and had lock picking and computer hacking.

00:55:55.760 And so you play like I do when I, so my, my, my view of the game was, I don't want

00:56:00.800 any conflict, anything that would be conflict.

00:56:03.360 I will win before it occurs and I will avoid it.

00:56:06.160 Yeah.

00:56:06.720 And my buddy who's quite literally like the hoorah mindset built a character around charging

00:56:13.040 and head first and using pure strength to shut down the conflict.

00:56:17.040 And I thought that was really interesting to see.

00:56:18.720 Yeah.

00:56:19.120 Because I knew that between our personalities.

00:56:21.040 Sure.

00:56:21.600 That mine was more strategic and staying back and his was more head on.

00:56:26.960 You could see the personalities of the individual in how they choose their character to be.

00:56:31.040 So does it literally need to be a video game like fallout?

00:56:33.360 No, no, I, I've even seen it in my own sons with like board games.

00:56:36.320 So Jude never loses board games ever.

00:56:38.960 Like he beats me and everybody else all the time.

00:56:41.440 And the reason is very simple.

00:56:42.640 He, my, my son, James, uh, and Jude, they, they learned how to play chess like before first

00:56:47.520 grade and good dad.

00:56:48.400 And they were, uh, James could do solve like three move problems.

00:56:52.160 You know, Jude, Jude could solve like one move problems, but Jude doesn't play the rules.

00:56:57.680 Jude plays his, he plays the person and he's like, oh, uh, uh, uh, he's very comfortable.

00:57:03.200 And this kinds of positions that he would put you in positions where you were uncomfortable

00:57:06.480 and beat the crap out of you.

00:57:07.680 You got to teach him poker, right?

00:57:08.880 Good for him.

00:57:09.040 He plays monopoly the same way.

00:57:10.640 He's like, I know dad always goes for the expensive properties, right?

00:57:14.400 So I'm going to lay traps for him by buying properties in little areas where, because

00:57:18.160 Jude, Jude actually found out the dice probabilities and back said, okay, where, if he wants to land

00:57:23.600 on those spots, where would he be likely to be able to land on the move before that?

00:57:27.680 Good for him.

00:57:28.240 And then, you know, he plays the person, right?

00:57:31.040 Whereas, and that's, I think that's why James, uh, had trouble with Jude as a box.

00:57:34.800 I mean, James is more athletic than Jude, but Jude would play with James's psychology

00:57:39.280 and get him into positions where Jude could whack him in boxing, you know?

00:57:42.720 So this is really important.

00:57:44.000 So be, so we, we grant that, uh, parents need this latitude, right?

00:57:48.560 Um, so I think absent abuse and neglect, which are really just two spectrums of the same thing,

00:57:53.600 right?

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00:59:18.640 Did I mention that we care?

00:59:22.960 Absent abuse and neglect, what we should be talking about is parental rights.

00:59:27.520 Once you clearly define what abuse and neglect is, right?

00:59:32.240 I mean, so it's abusive.

00:59:34.160 There's no general agreement in our society.

00:59:35.680 It's one of the problems that we have, right?

00:59:38.240 And that's what I'm going to do.

00:59:40.000 I'm going to tell everybody what children's rights are.

00:59:41.840 California has a totally different idea of what child abuse is than taxes.

00:59:45.520 Yes, they're wrong and they need to adopt my definition.

00:59:48.320 I agree.

00:59:48.800 Thanks.

00:59:49.840 I don't know if this is too hard of a segue.

00:59:51.520 I'm moving there, I'll help you.

00:59:52.720 But one thing we've discussed quite a bit on Timcast IRL is abortion.

00:59:57.920 Colorado has no limit.

00:59:59.200 Oklahoma has a pure ban.

01:00:02.080 How can we as a country function when the view of human rights is spattered and different across all

01:00:10.000 the different states, right?

01:00:11.440 Typically, we have a general view of your rights.

01:00:13.520 We have the constitution at the federal level, which supersedes all the states.

01:00:17.200 It's the law of the land.

01:00:18.400 But now we're running into this issue where the argument from the political left is

01:00:23.840 it doesn't matter if you've just stayed in nine months and can survive on your own.

01:00:27.520 If you are in the womb, you have no rights at all and can be terminated if the woman desires.

01:00:33.920 And then you have other states that say like,

01:00:35.840 actually, from the point of conception, you are a human with human rights.

01:00:38.240 I mean, this is this is a bifurcation in the view of rights.

01:00:41.920 I don't know how we navigate.

01:00:43.520 So ultimately, all the cultural issues that we're coming up with today

01:00:47.600 have at their root the same question.

01:00:49.360 And that is, what does it mean to be human?

01:00:50.720 Yes.

01:00:51.120 Okay, these are ultimately philosophical questions.

01:00:53.600 And hey, I'm going to look at the camera for the first time.

01:00:55.920 Hey, Christian theologian, you need to get to work on this

01:00:59.840 because we need a robust defense of the human person

01:01:03.360 because we cannot fight back made in in Canada, like medical assistance in dying.

01:01:09.600 We're not going to be able to talk about

01:01:12.160 proper understanding of children's rights to their mother and father.

01:01:15.440 We're not going to be able to look at reproductive technologies the way we should

01:01:18.160 transhumanism, pornography, the redefinition of marriage, transiting the kids.

01:01:22.640 Every single thing that we are talking about today comes down to the question,

01:01:26.080 what does it mean to be human?

01:01:27.040 Christian theologian, you are the only person with a worldview who is able to answer that.

01:01:31.520 You're the only person with the scaffolding to be able to give a human dignifying response to that.

01:01:36.640 So that is what we need.

01:01:37.760 That is the urgency here, okay?

01:01:39.600 And the problem with abortion, well, there's so many problems with abortion,

01:01:43.360 but I will say that the reason why we have children being manufactured through big fertility,

01:01:50.000 using somebody else's sperm, somebody else's egg, somebody else's womb,

01:01:53.440 is because we have said children exist for us.

01:01:56.480 We don't exist for them.

01:01:57.920 And that began with abortion.

01:01:59.440 That actually probably began with birth control.

01:02:01.680 I'm going to control this situation.

01:02:03.760 They only come if I welcome them.

01:02:05.280 And if I decide, instead of saying, you know what?

01:02:07.680 Sex leads to parenting.

01:02:09.120 If I have sex, I am consenting to welcoming a child into my life.

01:02:11.920 So we have always been controlling reproduction.

01:02:14.480 Birth control was the first step.

01:02:16.000 Abortion is the second step.

01:02:17.120 We've now taken that into reproductive technologies.

01:02:19.200 I think I have a cultural solution for you, Jeff.

01:02:21.200 Okay.

01:02:21.600 Instead of surrogacy or changing all the laws,

01:02:23.760 the men out there who are trying to find a life partner and a wife just need to go to

01:02:28.880 meetings that Katie set up for her nonprofit.

01:02:31.120 And then you'll meet women who are going to be as passionate about.

01:02:33.520 I have thought about setting up a matchmaking service because I know so many good men and

01:02:38.640 women who are like, I can't find the people that I want.

01:02:42.160 But I'm like, I don't know.

01:02:43.440 Well, sadly, and again, the Greek Orthodox Church also looked into this in all of the Orthodox

01:02:49.200 churches in America.

01:02:51.280 The divorce rates in and out of the churches are no different than the wider society, except

01:02:55.120 for some-

01:02:55.440 That's not necessarily true.

01:02:56.720 It's not necessarily true, but nothing in statistics is necessarily true.

01:03:00.160 Well, what's true is how you identify.

01:03:02.080 But when you actually look at church attendance, regular church attendance,

01:03:05.600 that is the lowest divorce rate.

01:03:07.680 Well, it's not in evangelical churches.

01:03:10.160 Actually, the lowest is in communities like the Amish, the beachy Amish, the Mennonites,

01:03:14.640 people who've essentially withdrawn from this society.

01:03:17.040 Yeah.

01:03:17.520 Secular society is what causes this.

01:03:19.520 And they have the best food.

01:03:20.960 Nancy, Nancy Piercy did write about this in her War on Manhood.

01:03:23.520 And she's got the, she's got the receipts for the fact that evangelical, not evangelical,

01:03:28.640 men who attend church regularly with their families have the lowest rates of abuse and

01:03:33.680 the lowest rates of divorce.

01:03:34.720 They are the most highly invested and they have the happiest wives.

01:03:36.720 That's true.

01:03:37.520 If the father attends, that's absolutely true.

01:03:39.280 That's right.

01:03:39.680 Yes, that's right.

01:03:40.240 That's right.

01:03:40.560 And I think, but, oh, I just wanted to address her issues about human anthropology,

01:03:44.400 because it is actually the central question of our time.

01:03:46.080 Yeah.

01:03:46.880 And, but I want to point out a difference between where I as an Orthodox versus a Protestant

01:03:53.280 might think about what a theologian is.

01:03:55.040 Mm-hmm .

01:03:55.440 For the Orthodox, a theologian is not a philosopher.

01:03:57.760 I think that's something that Protestants actually inherited from Roman Catholics.

01:04:01.040 Perhaps.

01:04:01.280 Where theology, you know, I went to a Roman Catholic university.

01:04:04.880 You know, I didn't go to university when I was 35, but I went to a Roman Catholic university.

01:04:09.440 And if you, if you went to one of the theology presidents, let's go do some theology.

01:04:13.280 They would take you to a library and they would apply philosophical categories to religion.

01:04:17.040 Orthodox theologians are, just means one who prays.

01:04:21.440 Mm-hmm .

01:04:22.240 People who pray a lot.

01:04:23.280 Monks, saints.

01:04:25.280 Those are who we consider theologians, not people who apply philosophical categories to religion.

01:04:30.720 But the problem, the problem of our time is a philosophical redefinition of the human person.

01:04:36.320 Mm-hmm .

01:04:37.440 So, and it's something I call expressive individualism.

01:04:42.080 Right?

01:04:42.320 Do you call it that or does Carl Truman call it that?

01:04:44.560 Truman calls it that, but, but that predates him.

01:04:46.960 It actually predates him.

01:04:48.080 You're right, yes.

01:04:49.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:50.240 Um, and this, this concept, uh, is deeper even than I think Truman talks about.

01:04:56.960 Mm-hmm .

01:04:57.040 Where he kind of gives a genealogy of how this idea came about.

01:05:00.000 Mm-hmm .

01:05:00.240 Right?

01:05:00.960 Um, but it actually goes back actually much further.

01:05:03.840 You, you said, you know, uh, this idea of abortion happened with birth control, perhaps,

01:05:09.200 or so forth.

01:05:09.920 The idea that you can control children and when they come to be began with, uh.

01:05:14.720 Actually, you can go back to the Roman Empire and see this stuff, right?

01:05:17.680 They.

01:05:17.840 Through, like, exposure and that kind of thing.

01:05:19.440 And, and they, they even had, uh, forms of abortion prior to birth.

01:05:22.720 Mm-hmm .

01:05:23.120 Right?

01:05:23.440 This is not, I mean, this, it's actually a pagan worldview.

01:05:26.320 Mm-hmm .

01:05:27.200 There, there was a.

01:05:27.920 It was, the advent of Christianity brought the idea that the individual has dignity.

01:05:32.000 Yeah.

01:05:32.320 That's one thing Truman doesn't address.

01:05:33.760 And created the category of child.

01:05:35.360 Yeah.

01:05:35.680 Yes, you're right.

01:05:36.400 That's one thing Truman actually doesn't address.

01:05:38.240 Yeah.

01:05:38.640 And, and so one of the things that I've pointed out to a lot of Christians who are trying to

01:05:42.400 get their head around the California mentality is with this expressive individualism,

01:05:47.440 and now I'm using it as Truman uses it.

01:05:49.760 Um, you know, your identity is your sexual identity.

01:05:52.720 Mm-hmm .

01:05:53.280 Right.

01:05:53.680 It is your sexual identity.

01:05:54.720 So when they see children who don't have sexual identities, they actually think they're helping

01:05:59.120 kids by giving them a social identity.

01:06:00.960 That's a good way to put it.

01:06:01.520 By sexualizing children.

01:06:02.560 That's a very good way to put it.

01:06:03.520 So it really is a fundamental, uh, philosophical difference about what a human being is.

01:06:08.640 Yes.

01:06:08.720 I'll tell you an anecdotal story because I think examples persuade more than, than arguments.

01:06:12.960 Um, I had an NBC producer during my trial who was trying to get me one-on-one.

01:06:16.880 I think he was secretly recording me, actually.

01:06:18.400 He finally got me one-on-one.

01:06:19.440 And, um, he said, well, Jeff, um, you know, you're going to church on Sunday.

01:06:23.200 I'm like, yeah, I'm going to church.

01:06:24.720 And this is on a Saturday night.

01:06:26.880 And he said, can I come to church with you?

01:06:28.640 And I'm like, yeah, man, come to church.

01:06:29.920 You know, I'll pick you up.

01:06:30.640 Well, you know, we start at nine o'clock.

01:06:32.160 I got, well, I said, it's an Orthodox service.

01:06:33.840 So I warn you, you're going to be standing up for two hours.

01:06:36.240 So he's like, yeah, but I'm gay.

01:06:40.320 You know, I'm sure he's sure he was recording me.

01:06:42.160 And I said, okay, well, the first half of the service is for people who are outside the,

01:06:46.320 the church, we call it the liturgy of the catacomens and that whole first half of the

01:06:50.880 service, the first hours for you said, my advice is don't be gay until we get to church

01:06:57.280 and try not to be gay until we leave church.

01:06:59.360 Just fast from being gay.

01:07:01.120 I'm fasting from being heterosexual.

01:07:02.640 I don't do any heterosexual sex prior to going in.

01:07:05.520 So you don't be gay until you get in and we'll pray for you.

01:07:08.560 And then he said to me, and this was the, this is when, you know, I realized what was going on.

01:07:12.880 He said, but then I couldn't be who I really am.

01:07:15.920 And I said, well, that's it.

01:07:17.520 You think you're a biological computer, largely programmed to satisfy unconscious desires.

01:07:22.960 I think you're something much more important that should be accorded more dignity than that.

01:07:26.480 And you should be come to church and find out why that's the case.

01:07:29.440 And he literally started crying.

01:07:30.880 Wow.

01:07:32.240 Okay.

01:07:33.120 So the fundamental problem is we don't agree on what a person is.

01:07:36.240 That's right.

01:07:37.360 I, there's no general agreement in our society anymore about this.

01:07:40.800 Yeah.

01:07:41.200 Even in the law, there's no agreement.

01:07:42.880 I, uh, well, I just, I differ with you a little bit on how to deal with it politically

01:07:48.640 because it, you know, America has historically solved its problems by partition Europe by expulsion.

01:07:56.000 And, and, you know, I, I, I, I think what you'll end up with is bleeding Kansas, you know?

01:08:01.040 So, uh, if you, if you have a fractured view of human rights, you end up in a certain amount

01:08:09.520 of time with, you know, uh, uh, this is 18, what is it?

01:08:12.480 18, um, uh, 44.

01:08:15.280 Was it?

01:08:15.920 Yeah.

01:08:16.880 Bleeding Kansas.

01:08:17.520 Yes.

01:08:17.920 This is the, when, when, uh, we're admitting a new state, there was two factions, parent

01:08:24.160 factions, many different factions before Texas.

01:08:25.680 Yeah.

01:08:25.840 Yeah.

01:08:26.080 Yeah.

01:08:26.240 Right.

01:08:26.480 And the, and the idea was we cannot allow the concept of slavery to, to be allowed to

01:08:33.120 take foot in Kansas.

01:08:34.720 Yeah.

01:08:34.960 In the new territory.

01:08:35.720 Yep.

01:08:36.000 Right.

01:08:36.480 And, and many new territories.

01:08:37.440 That was what it was about.

01:08:38.200 That's what the Lincoln Douglas debates were about.

01:08:39.680 And this resulted in people going around killing each other.

01:08:42.280 Yep.

01:08:42.640 And, and you saw Lincoln's arguments, if you recall, were purely legal.

01:08:47.000 Yeah.

01:08:47.720 He just said, for us, it comes down to, does a black man have the status of a hog?

01:08:52.620 Even the slavers didn't believe that.

01:08:55.020 And so there's no intermediate status in us law.

01:08:57.880 So they have full rights of citizens.

01:09:00.160 Um, but here's the, but here's the thing.

01:09:02.200 Um, the, the war was occasioned by the, the desire to impose that.

01:09:09.780 On the South, even though probably the institution would have gone away in 10 years anyway.

01:09:13.660 But, but either way, what I'm saying is that led, that's what led to the violence.

01:09:18.720 I said, and my, my assumption was, if you want peace, if you want a peaceful union, you're

01:09:23.620 going to have to realize people in New York are not going to live the kind of lives that

01:09:26.560 they live in Dallas, Texas.

01:09:27.880 Right.

01:09:28.160 They're just not.

01:09:29.120 But so I think it's important to say, you know, everyone always says like, what was

01:09:33.980 the cause of the civil war?

01:09:34.940 Oh yeah.

01:09:35.220 There's not a cause.

01:09:36.300 No.

01:09:36.540 Yeah.

01:09:36.860 And, and, and the, I agree with you.

01:09:38.960 The argument is the cause for the political conflict was rooted in economics, predominantly

01:09:43.700 around slavery, which led to a lot of debate, a lot of, well, come on now the, the Northern

01:09:48.260 industrialists were very upset at the fact that the Southerners enacted tariffs and hurt

01:09:53.140 their industries.

01:09:54.060 But I, I just, there's a, there's a lot of different issues that economically emerge

01:09:58.560 and everyone's going to try and pinpoint what the, what was the inflection point that led

01:10:04.240 to this.

01:10:05.020 And, uh, uh, you know, I've read quite a bit about it.

01:10:07.400 Some, some, many have argued, I think mostly from the Southern, the Confederate perspective,

01:10:10.580 it's that when Lincoln can call for a conscription to go and quell the rebellion or whatever,

01:10:15.840 that was what made everyone want to fight.

01:10:17.760 And I'm like, well, the States were already seceding, but, but secession is, I think the

01:10:22.780 natural conclusion of the, the, the, the ultimate federalist argument of the States

01:10:26.500 can do their own thing.

01:10:27.600 Why would they not, why would Texas not then say we will not pay taxes to a federal system

01:10:34.000 that allows the execution of human beings who are innocent?

01:10:37.640 In which case, Texas then says, we will radical federalism never, uh, uh, contemplated that

01:10:45.740 the federal government would take from one state and give to another.

01:10:48.520 It's, it's not even so much that.

01:10:49.820 I mean, if you look at, uh, what happened in 2020 with Texas via Pennsylvania, the argument

01:10:54.320 Texas had was Pennsylvania, as well as many other States were holding their elections outside

01:10:58.960 of the constitution.

01:11:00.140 And thus it was impacting their participation in the union and the Supreme court told them

01:11:05.400 to screw off.

01:11:06.220 Yes.

01:11:06.620 I, my fear is that if we, if we try to try to take the approach of let Colorado just determine

01:11:11.920 that a baby at nine months, the baby is crowning, doesn't matter.

01:11:16.720 State says you can kill it on the spot.

01:11:18.520 I'm like, if it's got a toe in the womb, I mean, that's, that's just absolutely insane.

01:11:23.100 It is insane.

01:11:23.680 And eventually what happens is States like, uh, uh, uh, Oklahoma say we will not participate

01:11:29.860 in federal requests, requirements, taxes, laws, or otherwise, because you are an,

01:11:36.460 uh, uh, you know, which I must point out is exactly what California did with its transgender

01:11:40.720 kidnapping law.

01:11:41.640 It said that it would never return my son to Texas, even on court order.

01:11:45.200 It would never obey a subpoena from a Texas court about my son.

01:11:48.920 It would, it would never, uh, allow any public servant to give me any information about my

01:11:53.660 son, including the schools.

01:11:54.620 That's nuts.

01:11:55.560 That is, that's, that is already happening, but I'm just saying, if you want a, if you

01:12:00.100 want peace, you want peace and you want to maintain the union, you're just going to have,

01:12:05.520 we're all going to have to accept that we won't have what dip the same ways of life.

01:12:09.160 I'm, I just.

01:12:10.740 Now you can say that's unlikely.

01:12:12.440 No, I agree, but there's limitations.

01:12:14.200 It has limitations.

01:12:15.520 We, I don't see how we can have a constitution, which seeks to protect the rights, the God-given

01:12:21.620 rights of its, its citizenry and of all people, even people who are not citizens have these

01:12:27.460 rights because the constitution does not grant them.

01:12:29.540 This is what a lot of people don't understand too.

01:12:31.020 They'll say, you know, for illegal immigrants or whatever, don't have these rights.

01:12:35.400 Like, no, no, no.

01:12:35.760 The rights came from God.

01:12:36.920 Yeah, they have the same rights.

01:12:37.980 Let me tie this back if you don't mind, uh, between slavery and the current discussion.

01:12:41.780 Um, you know, we, and I think, I think that you're, I think that you are right, that

01:12:46.060 we might have like, like we had free states and slave states where we'll have life

01:12:50.340 states and death states.

01:12:51.500 We do already.

01:12:51.980 Right.

01:12:52.100 We do already.

01:12:52.940 Um, but it's so interesting to me because, uh, reproductive technologies are actually

01:12:56.660 feeding into this.

01:12:57.560 So when Virginia passed its commercial surrogacy bill in 2019, for the very first time since

01:13:02.520 slavery, they deemed a class of people property.

01:13:04.680 Yeah.

01:13:05.300 And that was embryos, right?

01:13:07.200 Reproductive technologies have allowed us to commodify people in a way that we have not

01:13:11.820 done since we had an industry and economy built on the backs of people that were deemed

01:13:17.020 less than human.

01:13:17.920 And so I just think like when you are starting to create technologies that parallel slavery

01:13:23.260 in terms of the laws that we have to use to govern it, you really need to start taking

01:13:28.380 a look at, are we heading in the wrong direction technologically?

01:13:31.420 You're not going to.

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01:14:59.780 Stop it though.

01:15:01.020 There's no evidence that these technological movements have ever been stopped.

01:15:05.800 Like ever on anything.

01:15:07.740 It can't be.

01:15:08.620 It can't be stopped.

01:15:09.360 And into the question of AI right now.

01:15:11.600 I'm going to stop it.

01:15:12.560 Not to deviate too far from the conversation, but just to mention AI.

01:15:15.860 We've got numerous prominent high profile individuals saying AI will be our end.

01:15:20.560 And then people saying, why don't you stop doing it?

01:15:22.720 They say you can't because if I don't, someone else is already working on it.

01:15:25.880 Too many people are building a machine they know will destroy us and they won't stop.

01:15:29.760 People will kill their children.

01:15:31.320 You cannot stop abortion from happening, but you can take legal steps to massively limit

01:15:35.960 it.

01:15:36.300 And that's what I'm going to do for all third party production.

01:15:39.560 I got it.

01:15:39.880 I got to tell you.

01:15:40.440 I mean, the reason I bring up, you know, Colorado, Oklahoma and this and this conflict

01:15:44.440 is that there is with, I am horrified, infuriated and angered at the thought when I, when I saw

01:15:50.620 that video out of Virginia or that, uh, uh, I think she was a state Senator or a rep or

01:15:54.580 something was talking to a judge and he asked her like, clarify for me the limitations.

01:15:58.940 The baby is crowning and you can abort it.

01:16:02.520 And she goes, there are no limitations.

01:16:04.000 And the response from governor North, which I think cost him substantially, severely was,

01:16:08.680 well, you know, in these situations, the baby would be delivered.

01:16:11.300 It would be resuscitated.

01:16:12.820 Make it comfortable.

01:16:13.400 Make it comfortable.

01:16:14.280 Bring it to another room and then have a discussion about it.

01:16:17.300 I'm like, there is a, there is a, a, what a chilling phrase.

01:16:21.260 Make it comfortable.

01:16:22.140 But you know what?

01:16:22.760 I'm just, that is, he is being logically consistent.

01:16:26.180 Yes, he is.

01:16:26.540 That is the logically consistent position.

01:16:28.380 It cannot be disposable like 20 hours before and then post at known dignity, full human

01:16:34.240 rights.

01:16:34.660 No, the, the idea that infanticide should be able to take place post-birth is consistent

01:16:39.400 with an abortion mindset.

01:16:40.580 That's the consistent position.

01:16:42.320 So, so I've, I've presented this argument to many, uh, left-leaning individuals.

01:16:45.860 I love how they say they're pro-choice.

01:16:47.340 I'm like, no, no, you're pro-abortion.

01:16:48.420 You're pro-abortion.

01:16:49.140 Because, you know, I, I, me personally, I have the traditional pro-choice position, which

01:16:53.300 still seeks to balance.

01:16:54.320 It seeks to balance the rights of the mother and the child and find that, that, that

01:16:58.360 it's, it's really, really difficult, if not impossible, but we're trying as hard as we

01:17:01.800 can.

01:17:02.180 They just say, I've asked them this.

01:17:04.820 You have two women.

01:17:06.280 They both, they're identical twins and they conceived with identical twin brothers at the

01:17:11.760 exact same time.

01:17:13.160 The baby's eight months on one baby is prematurely being born.

01:17:19.300 It is born.

01:17:20.320 The women are sitting next to each other.

01:17:22.020 Can the doctor come in and kill the baby that was just born?

01:17:25.160 Right.

01:17:25.320 And they all say, well, no, that's killing a baby.

01:17:27.240 I say, okay, the baby of the identical genetics and gestation in the womb, can the doctor kill

01:17:33.080 it?

01:17:33.260 Yes.

01:17:33.460 It's the woman's choice.

01:17:34.220 And I'm like, why not just deliver it and let it live?

01:17:39.000 They don't care.

01:17:40.260 They just say, it's the woman's choice.

01:17:41.560 She can kill it if she wants.

01:17:42.580 That is a moral line that I feel is absolutely untenable.

01:17:46.160 I reject it outright.

01:17:47.560 I do not feel that we are a sound society that it's a shocking proposition.

01:17:53.160 It's a psychotic proposition.

01:17:55.340 And it makes me scared.

01:17:57.700 That's why you're a conservative because I mean, like conservatism is just living in

01:18:01.620 reality.

01:18:02.420 And the thing about progressives is their feelings are their God.

01:18:06.380 Their self is their God.

01:18:07.280 Their own sexual identity is their God because feelings and identity can change.

01:18:11.420 Their priorities can change depending on what the situation is.

01:18:14.660 And so they are going to be logically inconsistent because they are not anchored to an ultimate

01:18:19.400 reality.

01:18:20.500 No, I think it's deeper and worse than that.

01:18:23.560 Worse?

01:18:24.140 Yes.

01:18:24.780 Relying on Truman's analysis of expressive individualism.

01:18:28.880 It's not so much that it's just feelings.

01:18:31.320 They have firm beliefs.

01:18:33.800 And actually, their system is consistent.

01:18:35.660 It's internally consistent.

01:18:37.500 It's not consistent with observed facts.

01:18:39.800 It's internally consistent.

01:18:41.820 It's what philosophers call coherentism, right?

01:18:44.000 It doesn't actually meet reality in a consistent way.

01:18:46.460 But internally, it's all consistent, right?

01:18:49.020 Okay.

01:18:49.260 I agree with that.

01:18:50.000 That's why it's actually often hard to argue with left.

01:18:52.460 It's why I don't waste my time making arguments.

01:18:54.200 I use examples from facts because that's where the problem with their point of view actually

01:18:58.540 lies.

01:18:59.080 Well, we-

01:18:59.900 So they believe really that identity is something that is constructed.

01:19:05.840 Yeah.

01:19:06.340 This is wrong.

01:19:06.820 And this constructed identity, it's actually a duty of people to construct their identity.

01:19:13.320 And within that kind of mindset, it's totally incompatible.

01:19:17.380 And I don't even call myself a conservative anymore because I actually don't think we live

01:19:20.180 under the Constitution anymore.

01:19:21.460 I think it's-

01:19:22.560 That probably happened about around FDR's time.

01:19:25.320 The government is not constrained by the Constitution in any way.

01:19:28.740 I would love to restore it.

01:19:30.960 I would love to restore it.

01:19:32.140 And I would love to do the case.

01:19:34.980 So I call myself a right-winger now.

01:19:36.960 I just have a right-wing perspective on things because I don't know what I would conserve

01:19:40.400 at this point.

01:19:43.320 And I guess I could go into reactionary politics, which I think is what you're about, trying

01:19:47.860 to reestablish a kind of lost social order.

01:19:50.180 And I respect that.

01:19:52.080 Those reactionary movements have no history of success in the past.

01:19:55.540 I actually disagree.

01:19:56.140 I think the left is reactionary.

01:19:57.880 Okay.

01:19:58.140 If you look at Derrick Bell, one of the forefathers of critical race theory, he regrets the end

01:20:04.880 of segregation.

01:20:05.640 He wants it back.

01:20:07.580 So actually, if you look to the history of the world, the classically liberal framework

01:20:12.900 that we have today in terms of individual rights is new and has only been around for

01:20:17.440 a very, very, very short amount of time.

01:20:19.240 You're right.

01:20:19.740 And these people want to restore what once was.

01:20:22.620 You look at the eugenicists of the early 1900s.

01:20:25.360 Yes.

01:20:25.640 And you look at the critical race theorists and they're arguing for a return to a segregated

01:20:30.580 separate society where we can go back to the way things used to be.

01:20:33.520 Yeah.

01:20:33.960 I don't agree with this.

01:20:34.740 I say no.

01:20:35.300 I don't agree with this.

01:20:36.120 And what they'll do is the Alinsky tactic of accuse your opponent.

01:20:39.020 That is what you are doing.

01:20:40.860 Yes.

01:20:41.560 No.

01:20:41.900 In fact, you mentioned an ancient, was it ancient Rome or where the babies are the corpses?

01:20:47.300 Oh, yes.

01:20:47.720 It's been the way of the world to sacrifice children on the altar.

01:20:51.540 We put a stop to that.

01:20:52.620 And it's only in recent history we have taken the strong moral positions.

01:20:56.560 I want to point out, though, because I'm an opponent of all forms of liberalism, including

01:21:00.140 classical liberalism, neoliberalism, left liberalism.

01:21:03.840 I'm even opposed to free market liberalism.

01:21:05.520 I'm opposed to all forms of liberalism.

01:21:07.140 I'm very unusual.

01:21:07.880 You probably won't meet many people like me.

01:21:09.080 But all of that stuff about human dignity and all that stuff about ending infanticide happened

01:21:14.980 before the Enlightenment.

01:21:16.800 Okay?

01:21:17.020 It happened with the conversion of Europe to Christianity prior to the Enlightenment.

01:21:21.740 Under regimes today, we would consider intolerably authoritarian.

01:21:25.800 Yeah.

01:21:26.320 Right?

01:21:26.640 Which is why I consider myself a right winger.

01:21:28.620 Like, I would be Hamiltonian.

01:21:30.000 If I were back at the Continental Congress, I would be like Hamilton.

01:21:33.500 I would want an elected monarch who could take long-term vision, these kinds of things.

01:21:37.420 But I'm more comfortable with that.

01:21:39.060 But I just, do we, is the government constrained by the Constitution in any way?

01:21:42.800 It is.

01:21:43.780 How?

01:21:44.420 If you look at, I love bringing this up.

01:21:46.180 We've talked about it.

01:21:46.740 Yeah.

01:21:47.040 Gun rights.

01:21:47.660 I know.

01:21:47.920 It's your thing.

01:21:48.420 It's your thing.

01:21:48.860 Yeah.

01:21:49.020 Gun rights.

01:21:49.540 Yeah.

01:21:49.640 Huge.

01:21:50.340 And actually, free speech has expanded.

01:21:52.340 We used to have obscenity laws.

01:21:53.460 Mm-hmm.

01:21:53.640 And now people can speak more freely.

01:21:55.680 By the way, we should give credit to our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters who maintained

01:22:01.060 the anti-porn and the Hollywood production code all the way to 1959.

01:22:05.520 Wow.

01:22:06.520 Until it was finally overturned.

01:22:08.180 And then we got the explosion of pornography.

01:22:10.020 But thank you, Roman Catholics, even though I'm not Roman Catholic.

01:22:12.440 But they did the hard work there.

01:22:13.700 But the question is, I suppose, is the government constrained enough?

01:22:17.320 No.

01:22:17.920 Is it constrained?

01:22:18.640 Yeah.

01:22:19.100 And we can make an argument as to how constrained it is.

01:22:21.900 Mm-hmm.

01:22:22.120 But it is.

01:22:22.640 I mean, you look at what happened in New Mexico.

01:22:24.800 The governor says, I hear by decree, no guns.

01:22:26.520 Yes.

01:22:26.920 And across the board, everyone said, you can't do that.

01:22:29.720 Right.

01:22:29.840 Yeah.

01:22:30.300 And so the Constitution is simply an artifact of our minds.

01:22:34.680 Let me give you an example of why I don't think it's constrained.

01:22:38.140 So Title VII, we had the Title VII case, right, where in the 1960s, they banned discrimination

01:22:44.720 on the basis of sex.

01:22:46.860 The Supreme Court just redefined the word to include transgenderism.

01:22:51.560 That's right.

01:22:51.780 Which was never intended or meant by the people in the night.

01:22:55.280 They didn't include cross-dressers in the word sex back then, right?

01:22:59.260 When, and this ability of the court to do that very thing happened, it was, it was not,

01:23:05.320 it's not granted to it in the Constitution.

01:23:06.720 It's only allowed to decide in particular cases.

01:23:09.660 Yes.

01:23:09.880 Not to determine what, you know, not to impose a view of the Constitution on the other branches

01:23:13.920 of government.

01:23:14.820 But that was arrogated by the court in the very first court case, Marbury v. Madison.

01:23:18.900 Like the Constitution didn't survive contact with reality in the very first court case.

01:23:22.640 So when you have an institution that can simply redefine any term to achieve any social outcome

01:23:28.980 it wants, how is it limited?

01:23:31.080 How about the agencies, right?

01:23:33.440 We're supposed to have separations of powers, right?

01:23:35.960 So look at the IRS.

01:23:37.280 So we have IRS special agents.

01:23:40.080 A special agent just means they can carry a gun, right?

01:23:42.560 You have IRS special agents that can charge you with a crime.

01:23:44.660 They charge you with a crime, not under laws, but under regulations written by the IRS.

01:23:49.560 And you're denied a jury trial and you'll be detried by an IRS judge.

01:23:53.580 They have all three powers to the branches of government.

01:23:55.660 They force you to testify against yourself.

01:23:58.640 That's correct.

01:23:59.380 Every, and people really need to get this.

01:24:01.320 Libertarians are right.

01:24:02.760 If you do not provide evidence against yourself to the government as to your income every year,

01:24:08.340 they will come and they'll, they'll shoot your dog.

01:24:10.740 They will lock you up.

01:24:11.580 100%.

01:24:12.020 But my point is we're governed by agencies these days.

01:24:14.960 I don't even think elected officials even control it.

01:24:16.900 I mean, Trump ordered the military out of Syria and they said no.

01:24:20.440 Yep.

01:24:21.380 But that doesn't.

01:24:22.100 So we know the president's not in control of the military.

01:24:24.360 But I would say corruption of the systems is not an absolute statement that they're,

01:24:29.760 they're like, so my point is, yes.

01:24:32.500 You think there's still some remnant of limitation?

01:24:35.160 Well, I think it's, I think if you go back in time to the first amendment, you could not,

01:24:41.220 you couldn't carry signs saying certain things.

01:24:43.940 People would not allow it.

01:24:45.160 Yes.

01:24:45.640 You, uh, George Carlin famously got arrested for his, you know, seven words you can't say

01:24:49.160 on TV.

01:24:49.760 Well, originally the bill of rights applied to, you know, these restrictions on government

01:24:54.200 power applied to the federal government, not to the states.

01:24:56.640 It was only later through the 14th amendment that they were actually extended to the states.

01:25:00.160 Right.

01:25:00.440 But I just mean that, um, I, I, I guess I'll just step back and say simply there are instances

01:25:06.220 where the government does what the constitution prescribes and instances where it doesn't.

01:25:10.780 Yeah.

01:25:10.960 So you can make the argument that the constitution is just like a smiley face sticker on the wall

01:25:15.980 and it's really just our morals that are deciding it.

01:25:18.880 Yes.

01:25:19.460 I, I, I, so you're, you forced me to clarify my views and even as I'm thinking about it,

01:25:23.360 you've helped me help me do that.

01:25:24.840 Actually, thank you.

01:25:25.540 Uh, so look, I think the Supreme court, for example, looks out and says, you know, that

01:25:32.160 the temperament around abortion is getting to the point where it might lead to violence.

01:25:36.560 So we need to outlaw it again, or at least allow the states to control it.

01:25:40.020 Like, I really think those are how the decisions are made.

01:25:42.580 I agree.

01:25:42.900 They're not made on whether the constitution.

01:25:44.540 I believe that the re, uh, if, if you were going to have an actual constitutional scholar

01:25:49.220 judge and not a politician, when Texas sued Pennsylvania over the 2020 election, you

01:25:54.820 had Thomas and Alita who said, it is our duty to hear this case.

01:25:58.660 This is how, this is how our constitution works.

01:26:01.060 And the other judges were just like, nah, no, we don't need to, uh, because it's not

01:26:06.360 what, what is prescribed in the rules.

01:26:08.320 It is what we as humans ultimately decide makes the most sense.

01:26:11.340 Correct.

01:26:11.660 There is a, there is a balance that must exist in that, in that worldview.

01:26:15.300 Yeah.

01:26:15.900 For instance, I think judges should be good people and actually use their judiciary discretion

01:26:22.940 to protect those who are more or less, uh, protect or punish those depending on if they're

01:26:27.880 more or less deserving.

01:26:28.880 If you have a man and, and they, and they mostly do, but not enough.

01:26:32.580 There are too many instances where a judge goes, well, I don't think it's reasonable,

01:26:36.360 but life in prison, you know, because you, you jaywalked or something.

01:26:39.720 Right.

01:26:40.220 I, I think we need to see more, uh, discretion and leniency for those.

01:26:44.420 And, uh, too many people are just thrown into the system and, and, and mistreated.

01:26:48.820 Well, the, the, the, the thing is, and then this, this goes back to, um, some of the.

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01:28:21.360 Surrogacy issues that we talked about because there are massive government economic incentives

01:28:28.060 to put people in prison.

01:28:30.220 So let me give you an example.

01:28:31.300 I have this thing where I just, every once in a while, I get so pissed off that I'll hire

01:28:35.820 a lawyer for eight hours.

01:28:37.380 We'll go down to the Title IV D court in Dallas, Texas, where the child support court, Title IV

01:28:43.540 D, it's called, they're actually called Title IV D courts.

01:28:45.800 We have a statute in Texas.

01:28:47.160 I have, I printed it out somewhere, which basically says the courts are always to rule so as to

01:28:53.220 maximize Title IV D reimbursements.

01:28:55.300 It doesn't say in the child's best interest.

01:28:56.960 It's to reimburse Title IV D.

01:28:58.340 So they just have, they'll have black men lined up in the hallway going out to the street

01:29:02.860 and they're just putting them in jail.

01:29:04.780 All of them are just going to jail.

01:29:05.880 So I'll just hire, sometimes I just get so pissed off about this that, you know, I just

01:29:09.340 hire a lawyer and they, they, he signs a contract for $1 with these guys and he just stands

01:29:14.000 there all day and just represents these people and keeps them out of jail.

01:29:16.620 It just pisses me off.

01:29:17.940 Good for you.

01:29:18.460 Let me, let me.

01:29:18.960 But here's the deal.

01:29:19.620 They, they go off the Title IV D reimbursement program.

01:29:22.240 And when they put them in jail, they go into the prison reimbursement program, which is

01:29:25.860 $93 a day.

01:29:26.880 So the government just looks at these people as, you know, fathers as just like economic

01:29:31.460 transactions.

01:29:32.560 Right?

01:29:33.040 Yeah.

01:29:33.420 So let me, let me ask, uh, your, your perspectives on this stuff.

01:29:37.360 If you were a judge and you were presented with a court case that if you were to rule

01:29:43.920 correctly based on the law of the land, the constitution and your duty, it would result in mass

01:29:48.840 rioting and widespread violence, would you choose to incorrectly rule for preserving

01:29:56.200 peace?

01:29:56.520 Okay.

01:29:56.900 So didn't, weren't there protesters, death threats, murder plots against some of the

01:30:02.060 justices when the Dobbs decision was leaked?

01:30:03.980 Yep.

01:30:04.220 Yep.

01:30:04.460 Yeah.

01:30:04.900 And they didn't bend.

01:30:06.240 So I'm a little skeptical about this idea that everything is going to be done because

01:30:10.040 of ideological persuasion.

01:30:11.620 I mean, those justices ruled in that case, despite the fact that they didn't have a lot to

01:30:16.680 gain personally or politically from it.

01:30:18.420 But, but I, I, I, yes, I'm just, I'm wondering your moral position on, is it better to be

01:30:25.920 correct for, for as to the law of the land, or is it better just to, it's, it's, it's

01:30:31.960 sort of the, you know, to, to look at Texas v.

01:30:34.580 Pennsylvania.

01:30:35.500 I'm sure the Supreme court justices thought, Hey, look, if we take this case up, Texas is

01:30:40.220 probably right.

01:30:41.220 Yep.

01:30:41.440 The election is subverted.

01:30:42.740 Yep.

01:30:43.020 It goes to the house of delegates.

01:30:44.820 There's going to be mass chaos.

01:30:46.040 They were writing in the Boston globe that the Democrats would persuade Western states

01:30:50.160 to secede from the unity event of a Trump victory.

01:30:52.380 If Trump didn't concede some, some demands of theirs.

01:30:55.740 So I'm imagining that many of these justices were just like the law doesn't matter.

01:31:00.140 We should just do what minimizes harm.

01:31:02.780 I'm wondering if, if you think a move like that is the right thing or the wrong thing.

01:31:06.180 Should the judges have been like Thomas and Alito saying, it doesn't matter what you

01:31:09.560 think is right, or it doesn't matter what happens tomorrow.

01:31:11.860 It happens that we uphold our rules as they were, as they are constructed and written for

01:31:16.060 the preservation of the system.

01:31:17.340 I believe judges are empowered only to rule in specific cases.

01:31:21.460 That is all the constitution allows them to do.

01:31:24.260 And no, don't forget the appellate courts are actually not part of the Supreme court's,

01:31:28.880 you know, judicial branch.

01:31:29.980 Those are Congress's courts.

01:31:31.160 Yeah.

01:31:31.580 Congress sets their appellate jurisdiction and everything else.

01:31:34.000 In fact, Congress should use that.

01:31:35.560 They should say you can't have environmental lawsuits for nuclear plants.

01:31:38.160 They can just stop federal lawsuits on that.

01:31:39.980 It's easy to do.

01:31:40.540 Yeah.

01:31:41.140 Pipe dream.

01:31:42.500 But, but so, so if you think about it, a judge only ruling in a specific case, he can't,

01:31:47.400 he, he must accept the riots.

01:31:49.320 Yeah.

01:31:49.780 I, I, I must accept the law.

01:31:51.640 The law is a teacher.

01:31:52.660 The law is a teacher.

01:31:54.540 It tells us something true about humans.

01:31:56.960 It tells us something true about human behavior.

01:31:58.500 You get the law wrong.

01:31:59.640 You're going to get human behavior wrong.

01:32:01.140 I mean, like I see that, especially with the decriminalization of marijuana, for example,

01:32:04.780 in our area.

01:32:05.420 Like when I was a kid and I was in, you know, high school in the nineties, there were a few

01:32:09.400 people smoking a little bit of pot, definitely a lot of drinking.

01:32:12.240 But generally like we weren't, we weren't doing that.

01:32:14.280 We're like pot.

01:32:15.020 No, that's illegal.

01:32:15.740 It's not, it's not just illegal.

01:32:17.100 It's hard to get all of that.

01:32:18.160 No, it just wasn't really a part of our world today.

01:32:20.500 My kids will sit in the nurse's office with friends who are tripping out because they got

01:32:24.760 bad hit or too much content.

01:32:26.880 They're hallucinating, whatever it is.

01:32:28.800 And my kids are some of the only kids around that are not doing any levels of pot and the

01:32:35.020 psychosis, you know, the lethargy, uh, the, the lack of interest in schoolwork.

01:32:41.620 We taught kids something when we decriminalized marijuana, we taught them, this is no big deal.

01:32:47.720 And so it does matter what the law says.

01:32:50.660 We do want laws that are grounded in natural law and what it means to be human, um, that

01:32:55.880 has a proper understanding of human dignity and the rights of children.

01:32:59.620 And then you need courage.

01:33:01.860 I mean, probably courage is the thing that is lacking the most across society, probably

01:33:05.360 with judges, but certainly with the ordinary man too.

01:33:07.800 It is time for ordinary people with whatever position of power you have, or if you're just

01:33:12.300 a mom and dad, it is time for courage.

01:33:14.620 Nothing changes in this country without courage.

01:33:16.560 Well, I, I have, um, this is why I call myself a right winger these days.

01:33:20.860 And I don't call myself a conservative anymore.

01:33:23.060 Um, I, I am not, um, and I'm going to use this word, but I'm not pointing to anybody here.

01:33:29.140 I'm not naive enough to believe that, uh, there can be a government that is a nation of laws

01:33:35.520 and not of men.

01:33:36.960 Uh, governments are always of men.

01:33:39.080 And the question is only the moral status of the men in authority, because that constitutes

01:33:46.580 what the law will ultimately actually be, regardless of what's written.

01:33:49.920 Let me put it this way.

01:33:51.040 If you have, uh, an immoral man in power, it doesn't matter how good the laws are.

01:33:56.280 He'll still use them against you.

01:33:57.680 He will still use me.

01:33:58.600 If you have terrible laws, but you have a moral man in power, he will never use them

01:34:03.860 against you.

01:34:04.800 The only thing that matters is the moral status of the people in authority.

01:34:08.820 And that's what I think we don't talk about a lot.

01:34:11.180 We pretend like the piece of paper laws constrain people from doing things and they don't.

01:34:17.160 Only thing that constrains people is their conscience.

01:34:19.340 Well, you can definitely see some of that with the two tier justice system that's going

01:34:22.620 on right now.

01:34:23.160 But I wouldn't say that laws are inconsequential.

01:34:25.380 I think that they do hem us in, in some way still.

01:34:28.360 They do, but they're, they're, the authorities think of them instrumentally.

01:34:32.360 We don't think of them instrumentally.

01:34:33.900 The laws are a tool for them to achieve their purposes, right?

01:34:37.340 So we want to stop Trump from running.

01:34:39.420 We can use the laws, right?

01:34:41.420 Uh, we want the Texas attorney general out because he's instituting a Pfizer investigation

01:34:45.520 in Texas.

01:34:46.260 We can use the laws.

01:34:47.360 They think the laws as tools, whereas we think of them as having some moral status.

01:34:51.440 And I think we need to start thinking of the laws as tools and instrumentally the way

01:34:54.820 they do.

01:34:55.360 The question is, is the, is the, uh, moral status of the authority someone that we can

01:35:02.780 trust?

01:35:03.440 And that's ultimately all it comes down to.

01:35:05.380 So in this sense, you can see that that's a very illiberal way of thinking about government.

01:35:10.600 Um, but I actually think it's a more liberating and a freer way of living.

01:35:14.340 For example, I do believe that people were freer under monarchies than they were on ever under

01:35:19.340 democracies.

01:35:19.960 And for this very simple reason, it depends on the monarchy.

01:35:21.960 Are you talking about English common law?

01:35:23.300 Are you talking about their tradition?

01:35:24.420 Even on the French, I've been on the bourbons.

01:35:26.100 No, no, no, no, no, not the French.

01:35:27.940 I think so.

01:35:28.800 I think a French king could walk in and take whatever little hamlet he wanted, but a British

01:35:32.620 king could not because they had common law that almost predated the monarchy.

01:35:35.800 The English kings actually did do that all the time, but look at the confiscation of church

01:35:39.240 property and you will see that that's the case.

01:35:40.760 To be fair though, I mean, any system, no matter what system, the powerful people do whatever

01:35:45.120 they want.

01:35:45.340 You're right.

01:35:46.060 What, and I think Hans Hermann Hoppe, which, which ironically is a, you know, a classical

01:35:50.700 liberal libertarian, uh, economist, um, has done a pretty good analysis of this, right?

01:35:56.320 It, in democracies, you have to care what other people think and do because they vote and

01:36:00.340 they can, they can affect your life.

01:36:01.820 In a monarchy, you don't really have to care what they think.

01:36:04.760 They're not really affecting the laws that much.

01:36:06.440 Um, and so people socially are much freer under monarchies.

01:36:10.680 And one of the reasons I think Christianity arose in the Roman empire period, and it was

01:36:15.240 more difficult during the Republic period was precisely for that reason, right?

01:36:20.120 You were just freer.

01:36:21.200 You could just have a Christian.

01:36:22.160 Nobody cared because you weren't going to influence the, the Roman monarch.

01:36:25.740 You weren't going to influence them that much.

01:36:27.800 Um, so there is, there, this is why I consider myself a right winger on these issues, right?

01:36:32.140 The moral status of the authority is what, is what's controlling, I think.

01:36:36.540 I'd say if you want to dive into this, you should have Yuram Hazoni on your show because

01:36:39.640 I think he is the absolute expert, mapped this out historically, looked at all the systems

01:36:44.240 and understands common law and the British.

01:36:46.060 I agree with that.

01:36:46.780 I've written a pretty serious critique of his book.

01:36:49.440 Let's, uh, I would, I would love to talk to him.

01:36:51.340 Let's, let's move on to envisioning the, uh, dystopian nightmare that is before us.

01:36:56.060 So, uh, one thing that terrifies me, AI, uh, a year ago, I was making these goofy pictures

01:37:04.600 of Nancy Pelosi using a stable diffusion and they don't look like a human.

01:37:08.960 They look like grotesque paintings.

01:37:10.480 Yeah.

01:37:10.820 Today, they look real.

01:37:13.320 Yes.

01:37:13.660 One year later, people have now begun to AI generate videos.

01:37:17.780 Yes.

01:37:18.120 And of, of characters, we're, we're getting to the point where we're a few years out.

01:37:21.520 Last time I were on, we did the voices.

01:37:23.500 We, we, we, AI generated voices.

01:37:25.400 That's right.

01:37:25.680 You did Joe Rogan, I think.

01:37:26.980 Yeah.

01:37:27.100 Yeah.

01:37:27.400 And, and it's, and it's some, some voices are harder to do than others.

01:37:30.080 Joe was.

01:37:30.640 They couldn't do your voice, right?

01:37:31.900 Yeah.

01:37:32.120 It's struggled with me.

01:37:33.800 It struggles with a few other people.

01:37:34.800 It doesn't, you know, Luke, Seamus and I, it didn't get very well, but for some reason

01:37:39.440 it just nails people like, uh, Mitch McConnell or Joe Rogan, you know, but so, well, they're

01:37:45.280 large language models.

01:37:46.200 So there's probably more material to pull from for the people that are on the mic more

01:37:50.020 often.

01:37:50.140 Well, no, no, no, no.

01:37:50.760 This, this AI, you upload a 30 second audio file.

01:37:54.280 Okay.

01:37:54.660 And then it will turn that.

01:37:56.260 It will, it will take that sound.

01:37:58.720 And then you can, that one clip.

01:37:59.720 Yep.

01:37:59.940 And then you can, not an LLM in other words.

01:38:01.360 Right.

01:38:01.720 Okay.

01:38:01.960 So, uh, but, um, I'm just, I'm just making a general point about technology, technological

01:38:07.640 advancement.

01:38:08.120 The big thing now that everyone's talking about artificial wombs and the, I believe for the

01:38:14.460 time being, let me pause through science.

01:38:17.860 We can probably do anything within the confines of the physical world, right?

01:38:21.680 Obviously I don't think we're going to alter physics using technology.

01:38:26.000 I don't think it's possible, but, um, for the time being the idea that a man, a biological

01:38:30.460 male could be given a womb and then give birth is not possible, but there is a possibility

01:38:36.500 in implanting a womb in a man and then having a C-section.

01:38:39.980 And so this is what's actually one of the big debates now with womb transplants for,

01:38:44.680 uh, logical reasons, right?

01:38:47.280 They're there.

01:38:47.780 They, they start this because there are women who have damaged or injured their uterus and

01:38:53.100 receive a donor uterus so that they can carry a child.

01:38:56.300 And now the discussion is, okay, well, we did that for an obvious and logical reason

01:38:59.780 to help someone who was injured.

01:39:01.620 Now we can put a womb in anyone for any reason.

01:39:04.060 Yes.

01:39:04.340 This is how it always starts with a very sympathetic, understandable case.

01:39:07.380 And it ends up with purchasing, buying, selling, discarding, and shipping children.

01:39:11.640 That's what it's going to end up at.

01:39:12.740 And actually, I don't know if children will survive.

01:39:15.580 So, um, they have had some live births from uterus transplant from woman to woman.

01:39:20.300 They've, they've had about a dozen or so across the world where kids have been born to this.

01:39:25.180 It's a very difficult surgery.

01:39:26.940 The UK just announced a month ago that they did it for the first time successfully in

01:39:31.180 women.

01:39:31.880 Um, it was a sister donating to her sister or whatever.

01:39:34.300 Right.

01:39:34.520 So it begins with the sympathetic case and we don't yet have the technology to transplant

01:39:39.760 a womb into a man.

01:39:40.980 I, I was talking to somebody yesterday who was like, I don't know.

01:39:44.880 I don't know if you could survive.

01:39:46.420 I mean, like, it's not just a bag, like women's brains, their bodies, their hormone levels,

01:39:52.500 right?

01:39:53.240 All of that goes into sustaining a child.

01:39:55.320 It's like, it has to connect from something into something else.

01:39:57.960 And those, some things don't exist in men.

01:39:59.500 So really it would just be a bag in a cavity that would be sitting there in the man.

01:40:04.320 You would still have to create the baby in a laboratory, gestate them probably for a certain

01:40:07.900 amount of time, and then transition it to the bag, transition it to the bag and then C-section

01:40:14.940 it out because there's no exit.

01:40:16.220 Their pelvis literally cannot support an exit at that point.

01:40:19.720 So I don't know if babies will be able to survive in a male transplant, but I actually

01:40:26.100 think that that's not the greatest threat.

01:40:27.760 I think artificial wombs are the, the more like.

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01:41:56.460 This is a scenario that is going to threaten children sooner because you do have, you know,

01:42:03.340 the prototype that was developed.

01:42:05.120 They had a lamb that was gestated, right?

01:42:08.120 To virtual maturity and lambs are somewhat similar gestationally to babies.

01:42:13.500 It is intended to be a prototype.

01:42:15.960 And of course, pro-lifers are like, well, this is awesome.

01:42:18.120 Now, if you have a premature baby, then you can transfer them to the bio bag and then gestate

01:42:22.680 them until, you know, they are full term.

01:42:25.740 But the reality is that's, maybe that'll happen occasionally.

01:42:29.280 But what's really going to happen is when you talk about the baby assembly process, which

01:42:34.620 requires sperm, egg, and womb, sperm is very easy to access, right?

01:42:39.180 All those Japanese men that you were talking about last night, they could give while they're

01:42:44.080 at work, right?

01:42:45.220 Eggs, female eggs are harder to access, but we've figured out a way to do it.

01:42:48.880 If a woman pumps herself full of enough hormones and then you laparoscopically extract them,

01:42:54.280 wombs are the hardest and most expensive part of the baby assembly process to procure.

01:42:59.300 And that is why 25% of surrogates today that are renting their womb are in Ukraine, right?

01:43:04.800 Because these are economically desperate women that will rent their bodies out because their

01:43:09.000 husband is at the front lines or he's been killed and they have to support their three

01:43:11.760 kids, right?

01:43:12.780 This is why you've got countries across the world where brown bodies are giving birth to

01:43:17.180 white babies because those brown wombs are cheaper than the white wombs here in the United

01:43:20.940 States.

01:43:21.500 And it would be so much easier for big fertility to just cut out the female altogether in the

01:43:27.640 womb process.

01:43:29.300 There's a movie that I just watched, poorly executed, by the way, unfortunately.

01:43:34.440 You may have seen it.

01:43:35.340 I forgot what it was called, but it's about in the future, they create pods where you can

01:43:40.220 put the baby in it.

01:43:41.320 And so career women, instead of actually having the baby, they go to work and there's a closet

01:43:46.620 where they put the baby, the fake womb in the closet and close the door.

01:43:50.700 Have you seen this?

01:43:51.480 No, but there was that video that made the rounds late last year called like Ectolife.

01:43:55.000 All those pods.

01:43:55.760 Right.

01:43:55.940 All the pods, right.

01:43:56.800 And people are like, is this real?

01:43:57.820 Is it happening?

01:43:58.380 And the answer is no, not yet.

01:44:00.220 But China is working on artificial womb technology.

01:44:03.220 And here's where AI comes into the picture.

01:44:05.280 They are working on AI nannies, robot nannies that are going to adjust the oxygen levels,

01:44:11.980 the nutrition levels.

01:44:13.020 They will be able to increase development or terminate development of the babies.

01:44:17.740 And so this is really where the concern needs to be is right now, very often, if a child is

01:44:24.440 created through a surrogate and defective, maybe there's too many of them.

01:44:28.680 Maybe there's a developmental disability.

01:44:30.760 Oftentimes the actual real life woman is the only one, even though she's not genetically related,

01:44:34.900 standing in the way between life and death for that kid.

01:44:37.520 And we saw this with the situation, Brittany, I forget her last name, but the woman that

01:44:41.680 was pregnant with a surrogate's baby, the two men, right, who she found out at week 23

01:44:47.780 that she had an aggressive cancer and she needed to start treatment immediately.

01:44:52.880 And the two men said, terminate that baby.

01:44:55.640 And she said, but it's unlikely, but I could deliver the baby.

01:44:59.660 The baby could survive.

01:45:00.640 And they said, we don't want a premature baby with all the medical conditions.

01:45:03.580 And she said, okay, I will find people to adopt the baby so the baby doesn't have to die.

01:45:08.860 And they said, we don't want our genetics out there.

01:45:11.820 Kill the baby.

01:45:12.900 And the baby is dead.

01:45:14.460 The only person-

01:45:15.360 They did kill it.

01:45:15.800 The baby is dead.

01:45:16.860 She was opaque about whether or not it was an abortion or a delivery.

01:45:20.960 She won't say, but that baby is dead.

01:45:22.960 I think we know.

01:45:23.940 But yeah.

01:45:24.180 I think that we know.

01:45:24.980 So what I'm saying is, do you understand what happens when you cut out the woman in the

01:45:29.620 gestation process, it will be unlimited free for all in terms of manufacturing, producing

01:45:36.040 children.

01:45:36.620 Oh, that's not even the half of it.

01:45:37.960 That's not the half of it.

01:45:38.780 CRISPR technology.

01:45:39.980 They're going to, they're going to, you're going to go to a designer baby factory as a

01:45:43.640 single person and be like, I'd like a child who's strong, tall with perfect teeth.

01:45:48.500 And then they're going to give you a list of genetic options.

01:45:51.200 But like, how about this eye color?

01:45:52.460 How about this eye color?

01:45:53.240 So that's already happening.

01:45:54.240 You can already choose eye color, hair color of your children.

01:45:57.080 You already-

01:45:57.500 What, how, where?

01:45:58.440 Because you can do genetic testing, right?

01:46:00.260 At the moment that you conceive, you let the babies develop a little bit, and then you can

01:46:03.500 test.

01:46:03.920 And then you grade the embryos.

01:46:05.920 You discard the ones you don't want.

01:46:07.340 You choose male, female.

01:46:07.860 It's very easy.

01:46:08.480 Very, very easily.

01:46:09.680 Right?

01:46:10.200 And so what's going on right now-

01:46:11.600 Female embryos weigh a little bit more.

01:46:13.480 It's a eugenics process.

01:46:15.000 And that's why when you're talking about IVF, whether surrogacy or not, only 7% of babies

01:46:19.680 created in a lab will be born alive.

01:46:22.520 7%.

01:46:22.880 Because this is not about babies.

01:46:24.740 This is about on-demand designer babies shipped worldwide.

01:46:27.500 So here's the other problem with artificial wombs.

01:46:29.820 And Jeff's told enough stories.

01:46:31.660 I get to tell a story now.

01:46:33.160 Okay.

01:46:33.560 So the story is, I used to work for a Chinese adoption agency before I had kids.

01:46:37.280 And I would accompany every now and then parents that were going to adopt their children.

01:46:41.460 And so on my very, very first trip there, I went to a Chinese orphanage a couple different

01:46:44.840 times, same orphanage.

01:46:45.860 And I speak Chinese.

01:46:47.360 And I had been translating the medical reports and the schedules for these kids for a couple

01:46:52.000 years.

01:46:52.380 So I kind of thought that I knew how an orphanage ran.

01:46:54.980 So I go into this room and it's probably 100 kids.

01:46:59.100 It was the three to six month room.

01:47:00.660 And so it was all the babies, you know, two to three per crib, head to toe, head to toe,

01:47:04.760 swaddled really tight.

01:47:05.700 And I go into this room of 100 children, infants at that point, and nobody was crying.

01:47:12.840 And I was like, wow, what an impressive orphanage.

01:47:15.640 They've got these babies on the schedule.

01:47:17.200 They're all sleeping at the same time.

01:47:18.620 That's the purpose of swaddling.

01:47:19.540 This is amazing.

01:47:20.460 Yeah.

01:47:20.720 Right?

01:47:21.300 But then as I started to sort of wander the rows, I looked and the babies were awake and

01:47:25.740 they were looking around, but they weren't making any noise.

01:47:28.040 So I was like, well, interesting.

01:47:29.800 So I scooped one up.

01:47:30.920 And this is before I had children.

01:47:32.300 Uh, but immediately there's something about women.

01:47:35.340 You start to rock, you start to sway.

01:47:37.460 I suddenly was like, oh my gosh, I'm singing.

01:47:39.360 I didn't even realize I had started singing, but I'm singing to this baby.

01:47:42.520 And, you know, at first she was just listless, like not looking at all.

01:47:49.420 But after a little while, what women do instinctively with babies is we look at them.

01:47:54.300 They make a noise.

01:47:54.940 We make the noise back, right?

01:47:56.460 It's a, we simplify our language to their level.

01:47:58.520 That's instinctually kind of have women communicate with babies.

01:48:01.040 And within like three or four minutes, her, she was responding to me, like the eye contact.

01:48:06.560 She was making facial expressions, right?

01:48:08.840 She was lighting up.

01:48:09.740 She was going, oh, babies at that age do this thing where they go, oh, oh.

01:48:12.980 And you say, oh, oh, back to them.

01:48:14.780 And you literally teach them how to talk.

01:48:17.220 And it was just the sweetest thing.

01:48:19.160 So after five minutes, I went, I'm going to put the baby down.

01:48:22.240 I'm going to pick up another baby.

01:48:23.720 And I set the baby down and the baby lost it.

01:48:27.140 Starts crying.

01:48:27.620 And just loses it, shrieking.

01:48:29.820 And I grabbed that kid and I picked them up and I went, oh, shit.

01:48:34.600 These babies aren't crying because they've been trained to never cry.

01:48:39.100 Wow.

01:48:40.300 Right?

01:48:40.560 It's not because they're on a schedule.

01:48:42.600 It's because they have lost hope that anybody is ever going to respond to their cries.

01:48:48.360 And so I held that baby for two hours.

01:48:50.500 I didn't pick up another baby because I couldn't handle the thought of putting that baby down and

01:48:54.360 listening to her cry.

01:48:55.340 So that is a level of human deprivation.

01:48:59.240 So the only touch that those babies had was a bottle propped up in their mouth, regular

01:49:04.720 diaper changes.

01:49:05.480 I mean, they were changed.

01:49:06.360 They were clothed.

01:49:07.040 They were fed.

01:49:08.080 They had a nail trim once a week.

01:49:09.740 But nobody touched them.

01:49:11.200 Nobody looked at them.

01:49:12.080 Nobody made eye contact with them.

01:49:14.080 Now, I've adopted one of those children.

01:49:17.000 You know, my son was in an institution until he was almost two.

01:49:19.900 And the emotional short-circuiting that takes place because they did not have human touch

01:49:28.120 very often will make it difficult for them to function emotionally throughout the rest

01:49:35.300 of their life.

01:49:36.320 Deprivation of human touch is a level of starvation, human starvation, that is cruel.

01:49:42.660 We punish people with solitary confinement.

01:49:45.160 Correct.

01:49:45.660 And it's considered one of the most cruel forms of punishment.

01:49:48.880 Yes.

01:49:49.340 So that's what happened to those babies.

01:49:51.280 That's right.

01:49:51.840 They do.

01:49:52.400 That's what happened to those babies.

01:49:53.640 Now, at least they had nine and a half months of touch from their mother enveloped in her

01:49:59.060 smell, her movement, her dietary changes, right?

01:50:03.080 The light and the dark of her moving by a window, the sounds, her language, all of that.

01:50:08.320 I actually don't know if babies in artificial wombs will survive.

01:50:12.000 I don't know if they will.

01:50:13.280 But if they do, they are going to be so horribly damaged.

01:50:16.460 And, you know, if your audience can Google Romanian orphanages for what happens to children

01:50:23.000 who are deprived of human contact up to age five.

01:50:26.920 And they're essentially, they have to be institutionalized.

01:50:30.800 They can't function.

01:50:31.920 Well, there's a...

01:50:33.880 But I never underestimate the transhumanist globalist movement to commodify human touch

01:50:40.300 as well.

01:50:41.100 I think...

01:50:42.240 They'll commodify everything.

01:50:43.640 And I want to point out, because I like to have a sense of proportion about things.

01:50:48.280 Women have been commod...

01:50:49.120 Women's body, sexual body parts, for example, their breasts have been commodified throughout

01:50:53.140 all of human history.

01:50:53.900 Wet nurses, for example.

01:50:54.920 And rich women used to hire wet nurses so that their breasts could go back to normal size.

01:51:00.760 And they would...

01:51:01.340 And children became very close to their wet nurses, you know.

01:51:04.020 And there's whole books in the South about it.

01:51:06.140 It was very popular in the South, for example.

01:51:07.660 But we've rented out women's breasts for almost all of human history.

01:51:11.540 We've done this.

01:51:12.220 And their sexual organs, and now their eggs, and now their wombs.

01:51:14.920 Every female-specific body part is in demand.

01:51:18.220 You are correct.

01:51:19.080 Right.

01:51:19.940 I think it's fairly obvious.

01:51:22.180 And we're not stopping it.

01:51:23.080 I don't think we're stopping it.

01:51:23.960 I'm assuming everybody would agree with this, that pregnant women get instructions from

01:51:29.300 their babies to do certain things.

01:51:31.800 Not just instructions, but there's actually a cell exchange between women and the children

01:51:37.260 they're gestating.

01:51:38.060 It's a kind of chimerism, where their cells literally meld into one.

01:51:41.880 And they discovered this because they found male cells in women's brains.

01:51:46.280 And they're like, what on earth?

01:51:48.100 And it was from the male babies that they had carried.

01:51:50.780 They become one.

01:51:52.580 And so this is why, you know, this idea that, oh, she's not really the mother, right?

01:51:56.740 She's just the oven for somebody else's bun is a lie.

01:52:00.840 Everything going on chemically between the mother and baby.

01:52:02.500 So there's an epigenetic pathway as well.

01:52:04.080 That's correct.

01:52:04.540 So even the dietary choices of the mother reflect in real genetic changes in the baby.

01:52:11.420 So imagine, we know that babies are releasing, there's chemicals released, there's hormones

01:52:16.200 as exchanged, there's blood exchange.

01:52:18.300 So, you know, pregnant women having cravings for specific things, a lot of it obviously

01:52:22.820 has to do with the pregnancy hormones and what the baby needs.

01:52:24.940 Put a baby in an artificial womb.

01:52:26.700 The baby sends out signals saying, we require, you know, this particular vitamin or nutrient

01:52:31.460 and the machine does nothing.

01:52:33.120 Right.

01:52:33.240 That's right.

01:52:33.860 And not only that, but the woman is going to respond to the pathogens, the viruses in

01:52:37.960 her world and start making antibodies for the baby.

01:52:40.240 Like, you cannot replace the human aspect of this.

01:52:42.860 I think that AI systems will be able to analyze pregnancies in real time and they'll use similar

01:52:51.600 to like generative AI methods.

01:52:53.200 They'll try.

01:52:53.960 They'll look at all of these variables or many of them and learn them and recreate them

01:52:59.520 largely.

01:52:59.940 And remember, for the people that are doing this, it only needs to be good enough.

01:53:07.160 It doesn't have to be like what we want.

01:53:09.440 Right.

01:53:09.560 For them, it only has to be good enough.

01:53:11.520 Yeah.

01:53:11.760 To get your child products so you don't have to quit your job or wreck your body.

01:53:14.820 Yeah.

01:53:15.000 And in fact, you know, socially isolated people may be a desirable trait for some of these

01:53:20.900 people that are doing this.

01:53:22.440 Right.

01:53:22.680 So I think it's very powerful people want this to happen.

01:53:27.080 And a transhumanist agenda is real.

01:53:30.240 And I don't think it's, it's not just about mind machine.

01:53:34.100 It's not just about artificial births.

01:53:35.940 It's a program to take control of human evolution.

01:53:38.500 Totally control, total control of it.

01:53:40.760 And, um, you know, I think one of the fears that Elon Musk has talked about, for example,

01:53:45.240 about some of the threats from AI, he subtly hints at this as the major threat.

01:53:50.260 So it's the control of human evolution.

01:53:52.440 And I think they're going to be able to do it.

01:53:54.780 So it is absolutely happening.

01:53:56.240 Like you have eugenics concerns already among kids created through these technologies.

01:54:00.580 You know, we've got kids that are saying, this is a eugenics process.

01:54:03.520 I am a, I am a product that was designed, conceived by two specific specifications.

01:54:09.740 Every single step that we take away from children being created in the marital embrace has only

01:54:14.820 resulted in damage to kids.

01:54:16.480 I mean, even now with surrogacy, we already have cases where you've got like the baby

01:54:21.800 factory dad in Japan, like a single guy, Japanese guy who created dozens of children through

01:54:26.500 surrogates in India and Cambodia and Thailand, um, single guy, rich guy, he just made all

01:54:33.000 these genetic children.

01:54:33.820 I believe with a, the egg of a white woman, he's raising them, you know, in a big apartment.

01:54:37.800 You already have kids.

01:54:39.700 Here's the other thing about big fertility.

01:54:41.180 You know, we talked last night about adoption being a just society's response to children who

01:54:45.520 have lost their parents in those situations.

01:54:47.580 The child is the client adults have to go through all kinds of screenings and vettings and background

01:54:52.020 checks, home studies.

01:54:53.220 That is not how it works in big fertility in big fertility.

01:54:56.240 If you have the, if the bank can clear your check, you get the baby.

01:54:59.820 So we already have situations of pedophiles creating children through surrogacy who would

01:55:05.400 never have passed an adoption background check, right?

01:55:08.140 That's true.

01:55:08.540 This is baby buying and selling.

01:55:10.560 And I will tell you, there might be a few nice couples that are like, this is the solution

01:55:14.380 of my infertility, but this is going to be, you want to talk about child exploitation and

01:55:18.500 trafficking, artificial wombs are going to give it to you.

01:55:20.380 I actually think it will always be far less than the abuses in the current system.

01:55:24.860 So the current, I don't know.

01:55:26.160 What will be far less?

01:55:27.280 Let me, the, the, the, the abuse of children.

01:55:30.640 It's going to be far less with the advent of, than the current, than the current system.

01:55:33.920 I mean.

01:55:34.320 Here's why.

01:55:34.880 Let me explain.

01:55:35.920 The current system puts half of children without fathers with, with well-known effects.

01:55:40.820 The, often this is being done because the children are effectively being bought by welfare programs.

01:55:48.100 So you cannot get welfare in many states if there's a father in the house, a father who's

01:55:53.480 working in the house.

01:55:54.460 So I agree with that.

01:55:55.140 And women, women optimize, uh, their, their highest payout per relative to the cost at three

01:56:01.400 children.

01:56:02.680 So we're already buying children in the current system.

01:56:05.360 We just don't talk about it like that, but that's exactly what we're doing.

01:56:08.200 We're paying women to have children from three different fathers to maximize the payout.

01:56:12.460 Okay.

01:56:12.600 So like based on like international law, because I was responsible for like compliance with

01:56:17.060 adoption law, federal, state, and international, um, you purchase children by direct payments

01:56:22.820 to the birth parents, right.

01:56:24.240 To relinquish their parental rights.

01:56:25.680 That is by baby buying and selling.

01:56:27.720 So that is prohibited in adoptions.

01:56:29.760 I don't know what you mean by the current system, but the current system of adoption.

01:56:32.940 We pay women to have children without fathers.

01:56:35.580 That's what I mean.

01:56:36.380 It's very simple.

01:56:36.960 Well, that's not technically the definition of trafficking.

01:56:40.520 What's happening in big fertility is technically the definition of trafficking.

01:56:43.320 I'm not worried about legal definitions.

01:56:45.020 What I'm worried about is the fact that we have an economic, we give money and have an

01:56:48.740 economic incentive for women to have children without fathers.

01:56:51.260 And it is the biggest social problem in America, far larger than surrogacy will ever be.

01:56:55.520 It is the biggest problem in America.

01:56:57.460 Fatherlessness is the biggest problem in America.

01:56:59.560 When you're talking about the commodification of children and the danger to trafficking, surrogacy

01:57:05.040 and artificial wombs are going to blow that away.

01:57:07.420 Yes.

01:57:07.560 So what, what we will say too expensive, it'll never be as big as the current system.

01:57:11.620 It's not going to be, you're going to get cheaper and cheaper, just like high HD TVs,

01:57:15.200 right?

01:57:15.400 The technology is going to advance rapidly.

01:57:17.260 And if we get to the point, cost is not, cost doesn't matter.

01:57:21.060 You're going to, you have, you already have people who make a billion dollars.

01:57:24.420 It's a massive industry trafficking.

01:57:26.060 And if the traffickers can put an artificial womb in the jungle.

01:57:30.320 Oh, artificial wombs you're talking about are surrogacy.

01:57:32.660 No, no, no.

01:57:32.980 I'm talking about artificial wombs.

01:57:33.900 I'm talking about surrogacy.

01:57:34.800 If we get to the point of artificial wombs, you will have these traffickers growing human

01:57:39.180 beings for the purpose of being sold.

01:57:40.800 That's right.

01:57:41.200 They won't exist in any system.

01:57:42.580 They won't be trackable.

01:57:43.640 No one will know they're missing.

01:57:45.140 These, these, these children will never learn.

01:57:46.960 And then, you know, the worst part is the traffickers will dispose of them.

01:57:50.560 That's right.

01:57:50.960 When they, when they are no longer a viable product.

01:57:52.820 So surrogacy is paving the way for that right now with surrogate born children, we don't know

01:57:58.360 where they're going.

01:57:59.200 Like in adoption, there's post-placement reports.

01:58:01.200 There's, there's follow-up.

01:58:02.660 There's supervision.

01:58:04.720 You have things like the Uniform Parentage Act that was passed in Washington state.

01:58:08.400 By the way, it's coming to your state too.

01:58:09.840 So if you're in touch with your state legislators, look for the overhaul of parenthood through

01:58:13.440 this dystopic bills called Uniform Parentage Act.

01:58:16.020 It simply means children are going to be awarded to whatever adults have the money and means

01:58:19.720 to acquire them.

01:58:20.680 Surrogacy is doing this.

01:58:21.640 There's no track.

01:58:22.640 There's no tracking of these kids.

01:58:24.400 We don't know where they go.

01:58:25.360 They are taken cross borders and they disappear forever and nobody is monitoring it.

01:58:29.820 And they should.

01:58:30.220 I completely agree that surrogacy should be tightly regulated like adoption.

01:58:34.240 I agree with that.

01:58:35.000 It should be banned.

01:58:35.900 Yeah.

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02:00:03.820 Well, it should be banned.

02:00:07.800 I agree that it should be banned.

02:00:09.340 This is the thing.

02:00:10.260 But my thing is, when I compare it to the current system, it's better than the current

02:00:15.020 system.

02:00:15.540 It's not.

02:00:16.040 It produces outcomes that are objectively better.

02:00:18.400 They're not.

02:00:21.100 The single father home and the outcomes for people who can afford surrogacy are better than

02:00:28.300 the single mother homes that exist in the current system.

02:00:30.140 The solution to your boys losing a relationship with their father is not to have children lose

02:00:35.400 a relationship with their mother.

02:00:36.340 That's straw manning.

02:00:37.140 That's not what I'm saying.

02:00:38.200 What I'm saying is...

02:00:39.360 Children have lost their father in the current situation.

02:00:41.160 The solution is not to insist that children lose a relationship with their mother.

02:00:43.440 There is no solution.

02:00:43.880 It's mitigation, first of all.

02:00:45.340 But should we compare against an ideal that probably we can't attain given the reproductive

02:00:49.460 technologies that are coming?

02:00:50.940 Or should we look at...

02:00:51.780 Should particularly men look at the current system and the risks in the current system

02:00:55.880 and decide what to do to achieve the best outcome?

02:00:58.720 The current system is awful.

02:01:00.820 The future proposed mitigation is awful.

02:01:04.400 I agree with all that.

02:01:05.620 But I think it's...

02:01:06.300 I think you have to be...

02:01:08.220 I propose that we not be starry-eyed idealists.

02:01:12.140 And instead, what we should do is be realists and try to achieve the best outcomes we can in

02:01:16.700 the broken system that we have as we, you and I, work together to change that system.

02:01:20.960 So I propose that we recognize the realities of the child, that they come from a man and

02:01:24.600 woman, get their biological identity from that man and woman, are maximized with their

02:01:28.760 development by that man and woman, are statistically the safest, most loved in the home of that

02:01:33.180 man and woman, and that all law, culture, and technology bend to the reality of the child

02:01:37.360 instead of forcing kids to fit the mold of whatever's going on.

02:01:40.320 I agree with you, but that isn't the current system.

02:01:41.260 All right, so I think I just need to say it is beautiful and laughably naive because

02:01:47.760 the horrors of technological advancement are beyond your comprehension.

02:01:51.420 They are.

02:01:51.900 And they're nearly unstoppable.

02:01:53.560 That's right.

02:01:53.880 Right.

02:01:54.100 And so as we sit here today, I imagine it's going to be like 30 years and they're going

02:01:58.280 to...

02:01:58.560 Someone's going to pull up the archive and they're going to be like, look how stupid

02:02:00.840 they were.

02:02:01.240 They had no idea what was coming.

02:02:02.560 Oh, I know.

02:02:03.180 And there's going to be like the weirdest cloning.

02:02:06.400 There's going to be people who are half dog.

02:02:08.300 This is the thing, like when I read the two most commonly read dystopias, right, that

02:02:14.160 everyone reads in college, right?

02:02:15.680 It's Brave New World in 1984.

02:02:17.660 And Brave New World was far more accurate.

02:02:19.240 I agree, yeah.

02:02:20.080 Far more accurate.

02:02:20.480 To be fair, Luke Gretkowski of We Are Change has a shirt, which is a big chart of all of the

02:02:26.920 dystopians.

02:02:27.600 Yes.

02:02:27.720 And then overlapping in the middle, you are here.

02:02:29.580 Yes.

02:02:29.840 Because there's elements of all of it.

02:02:31.620 You're right.

02:02:31.940 Yeah, that's right.

02:02:32.200 From Fair Night 451, Brave New World, 1984.

02:02:34.380 I still would like to know what should young men do in this current system until it changes?

02:02:39.760 Well, you cannot overhaul or forsake the ideal.

02:02:42.440 That's the one thing.

02:02:43.300 Like, there's no other option for this that is going to mean that men are going to be happier.

02:02:47.320 I'm sorry, they're not.

02:02:48.340 There is a practical cultural behavioral solution.

02:02:51.360 As we've already mentioned, the Amish seem to have done very, very well.

02:02:55.420 And there are Amish families nearby here and they've got the best food.

02:02:59.600 So they really do.

02:03:01.120 I mean, they have fresh, organic, farm food, clean.

02:03:04.320 And when we had Fresh and Fit on the show.

02:03:06.380 They don't vaccinate their cattle.

02:03:08.080 They do not.

02:03:09.860 It's all just like organic, raw of the earth.

02:03:11.940 But Fresh and Fit's position was, this is the reality of the world.

02:03:15.080 So we must have men learn and adapt to it.

02:03:17.680 And they said, look how these women behave, what their expectations are.

02:03:21.900 No matter who the woman is you meet, she's on Instagram.

02:03:24.940 And so there's going to be some famous guy or some guy with 300,000, 500,000 followers

02:03:30.480 in the blue verification.

02:03:31.700 It's going to send her a DM and it's going to be, oh, wow, look at this.

02:03:34.820 You can move up.

02:03:35.700 And I said, and the likelihood of that happening, if you meet your wife at church,

02:03:41.220 that's very low.

02:03:42.780 So that's the other thing is like, I heard them.

02:03:44.840 I know that that world exists.

02:03:46.480 There also are other worlds that exist.

02:03:48.260 There are, there's my world that exists.

02:03:50.240 My world, where we've got people that are living by a shared set of values, raising our

02:03:53.660 kids a certain way, to believe certain things, right?

02:03:55.900 To recognize human dignity, to live according to that human dignity, to not define themselves

02:04:00.080 based on their sexual feelings.

02:04:01.220 It's, it's, it's like Waterworld.

02:04:03.080 You ever see that movie?

02:04:04.140 Yes, I do.

02:04:04.660 Waterworld.

02:04:05.220 You see, Kevin Costner.

02:04:06.340 Kevin Costner.

02:04:06.840 I remember The Smokers, which was the funniest part of the movie.

02:04:09.120 And so what we have are people who have just resigned themselves to this.

02:04:13.400 The world was, they said the world was created in a deluge.

02:04:16.120 Right.

02:04:16.280 Kevin Costner, because he was like a mutant or whatever, could go underwater.

02:04:18.720 And he knew that the world was destroyed by one.

02:04:20.520 Right.

02:04:20.800 But you had people seeking out dry land and it was a myth.

02:04:24.200 They said dry land doesn't exist, but they found it.

02:04:26.400 And they're like horses running and there's flowers and food and trees.

02:04:29.380 And so my view is you can choose to sit on that boat and just float in the ocean and

02:04:33.020 say, this is life.

02:04:33.920 And I'm, I'm, I'm resigned to it.

02:04:35.760 Or you can seek out that dry land like they did in Waterworld and they found it.

02:04:39.360 My point in reality is it may be very, very difficult, but I think there are a lot of

02:04:45.520 political, social arguments to be made about what we should do, where we're going, how

02:04:50.020 it should be.

02:04:50.740 But first and foremost for the individual, what they can do is, yeah, you need to be away

02:04:55.180 from these things.

02:04:56.120 Yes.

02:04:56.320 Like I was saying to Fresh and Fit, if you are concerned, male, man or woman, you're going

02:05:00.700 to get a dopey guy who's going to leave you with the baby and run off, or you're a guy

02:05:04.460 who's worried the wife is going to bring you to divorce court and take everything from

02:05:06.920 you.

02:05:07.100 Which statistically happens more often than not.

02:05:08.580 It does, but I would argue, move to a small town, very small with responsible, hardworking

02:05:14.460 people, seek it out, find it and meet your, meet the people who are like-minded through

02:05:19.860 community and who have social obligations.

02:05:24.080 If you're going to church regularly, and I am not a Christian, I do believe in God, but

02:05:28.600 I know a lot of people might be like, I just don't feel right going to, you know, I don't

02:05:31.780 believe.

02:05:32.260 Find a place where there's community gathering and social expectation.

02:05:35.620 And then you find a person who says, maybe in time we grow to not get along, but we recognize

02:05:42.960 our duties and responsibilities.

02:05:44.720 So while we may not be having fun, we are being responsible.

02:05:49.140 You find someone who can recognize that maybe you're not going on date night anymore.

02:05:54.220 Maybe you're not watching movies together.

02:05:55.380 You actually don't like the sounds or smells or whatever, but you also recognize you have

02:06:00.160 a responsibility to your kids and to your family and you learn to work together, not

02:06:04.080 for yourselves, but for the children you've created.

02:06:06.300 So all of this has to do with what does it mean to be human?

02:06:08.660 Are you going to recognize the biological realities that, for example, men and women

02:06:12.580 make babies?

02:06:13.140 But I will also say, you know, fresh and fit, they were talking about their 50, 60 women

02:06:17.080 that, you know, the body count they need to get.

02:06:18.620 Like, how many babies have you fathered?

02:06:20.760 Yeah.

02:06:21.040 How many babies have you fathered?

02:06:22.240 Yeah, I know.

02:06:22.660 That you do or do not know about.

02:06:24.700 And you think that that is the solution to this, right?

02:06:27.080 You're talking about all these women and how, oh, well, they're just so needy and they're

02:06:30.560 so lost because they didn't have dads, right?

02:06:33.100 But they're like, well, I don't want those women.

02:06:34.740 They didn't grow up with fathers.

02:06:35.660 I'm like, you are creating the fatherless children.

02:06:38.240 So like, to me, they are living so inconsistently with the natural world and they're not going

02:06:42.560 to be able to survive through that.

02:06:43.840 So they think that they're adapting.

02:06:45.760 They're not adapting.

02:06:46.540 They're perpetuating.

02:06:47.780 So I'm sorry.

02:06:48.440 Opt out.

02:06:49.500 Create a new culture.

02:06:50.480 Go to the place where people have a robust understanding of human dignity and live according to it.

02:06:55.180 There is, you know, I do respect this kind of idealism and I agree with the ideal.

02:07:03.620 But, you know, I get this a lot from women.

02:07:06.540 They'll say, Jeff, you just chose poorly, you know, and a lot of women say, well, just

02:07:12.560 choose better.

02:07:13.280 Choose a spouse better.

02:07:14.220 Well, first of all, women file for most divorces.

02:07:16.280 They're the ones choosing poorly.

02:07:18.180 The college educated women, it's like 90% of the filers are women.

02:07:22.280 They're choosing very poorly.

02:07:23.480 That says something about our education system.

02:07:26.300 But I don't believe that choosing wisely can overcome the massive economic and social

02:07:33.720 incentives that cause women to, or not cause, but incentivize women to divorce.

02:07:38.160 It won't solve everything.

02:07:39.460 Yeah.

02:07:39.880 And so, well, I think, yeah, I admit it.

02:07:43.140 I'm the one who brought it up.

02:07:44.100 The Amish communities and I think even the Mennonite communities that have withdrawn from

02:07:47.780 society, you can have this.

02:07:49.400 Hold on.

02:07:50.380 It won't scale.

02:07:51.120 And if you want something that scales, that can help our wider society, you must change

02:07:59.240 the incentives.

02:08:01.280 You understand what I'm saying?

02:08:01.860 Yeah.

02:08:02.100 I want to add that they haven't withdrawn from society.

02:08:04.760 I mean-

02:08:05.080 No, I know.

02:08:05.860 But they have-

02:08:06.440 They've created an alternative society.

02:08:07.980 That's what I mean.

02:08:08.480 But not even.

02:08:10.640 If you drive a minute down the road, you can go to a Mennonite farm and walk in and hang

02:08:15.680 out with them and play checkers and buy food.

02:08:17.920 When I used to live in Texas, I used to hang out with a Mennonite.

02:08:20.540 It's just a community.

02:08:23.320 That's all it is.

02:08:23.860 I mean, if I start talking about skateboarding, I will be speaking a foreign language to you

02:08:28.920 guys describing all of these things.

02:08:30.360 I know.

02:08:30.680 It's its own society.

02:08:32.000 And so they have their social norms and expectations.

02:08:35.100 I say, while we're dealing with these problems, you simply seek out those who hold those views

02:08:40.580 and live in that community.

02:08:42.160 Okay.

02:08:42.360 So this has been a mandate for Christians since the Sermon on the Mount.

02:08:45.320 That's what church means.

02:08:46.360 Right.

02:08:46.600 That is literally what church-

02:08:47.560 Ecclesia means those who are called out.

02:08:48.580 That's exactly right.

02:08:49.700 And Jesus said, what do you need to do?

02:08:52.660 You need to-

02:08:53.320 You know, Christians talk about being in the world, but not of the world.

02:08:56.240 We have been doing this for two millennia.

02:08:58.340 When Jesus said, you need to seek the city on the hill, do you know what he's saying?

02:09:02.360 He's saying, there's a city within your city, right?

02:09:04.940 My church, my church community is in Seattle, but we don't live like Seattle.

02:09:10.140 We have a different set of laws that govern us.

02:09:12.620 We use our body differently, our words differently, our money differently.

02:09:15.760 We have different priorities.

02:09:17.280 We raise our children differently.

02:09:19.140 So we, that is what church is.

02:09:20.900 It is a parallel society within a city.

02:09:23.780 And that's actually the mandate for all Christians.

02:09:25.620 So you do not have to be conformed to the culture.

02:09:29.720 As you know, Christ tells us, you are not supposed to be conformed to the pattern of

02:09:33.960 this world.

02:09:34.520 And fresh and fit are being conformed to the pattern of this world.

02:09:38.360 We are supposed to be transformed by what?

02:09:42.300 By the renewing of our mind.

02:09:43.800 What we think first, the values that we have is going to dictate our behavior.

02:09:49.100 So get out of the culture that is speaking a certain kind of values.

02:09:52.320 Get into the place that has higher values, higher laws, and actually the authentic God.

02:09:58.100 Find your women there.

02:09:59.360 It's not going to perfect everything.

02:10:01.340 We're fallen people, but that is where you're going to opt into a system.

02:10:05.100 Don't try to find your wife in Sodom or Gomorrah.

02:10:07.840 Yes, obviously not.

02:10:09.220 But all I'm saying is that large scale economic and social incentives matter a lot.

02:10:15.120 Yes, they do.

02:10:15.740 And they probably matter more than anything else.

02:10:17.840 Not more than anything else, but they matter.

02:10:19.560 In aggregate effects, they observably do, okay?

02:10:23.060 Did you say social?

02:10:24.140 Social and economic.

02:10:25.320 I agree with social.

02:10:26.600 I think the social is the most powerful.

02:10:28.120 Oh, no.

02:10:28.580 I think if you pay...

02:10:29.420 Look, we know if we pay women to have babies out of wedlock, they'll just have babies out

02:10:32.940 of wedlock like crazy.

02:10:33.960 Even in very religious black churches.

02:10:37.080 What you incentivize, you get more of.

02:10:38.560 That's right.

02:10:38.960 And we've been incentivizing fatherless homes for a long time.

02:10:41.120 And the incentives for divorce are mainly for women to take sole control of the children.

02:10:46.360 That's what the evidence shows, right?

02:10:48.320 And as someone who has ardently tried to change these laws in several states, I can tell you

02:10:54.760 there are entrenched interests that are going to prevent that.

02:10:57.760 You're not going to change those incentives anytime soon.

02:11:00.280 So the idea of go be Amish, go be Mennonite, find a church.

02:11:05.500 It's pretty obvious that there are a lot of men that want to do this.

02:11:09.100 They want to find wives like this.

02:11:10.520 They can't find it in America.

02:11:12.000 They're going to the Philippines to do it, right?

02:11:14.220 In order to find it, it's a way of kind of stepping out of society as well.

02:11:17.400 But the vast majority of men are not going to do it and are not able to do it.

02:11:21.640 So we have to be real about this.

02:11:23.280 We're just, it's just about that time.

02:11:24.800 If, if you want to offer some final thoughts, Jeff just spoke.

02:11:28.400 So Katie, if you want to just give your final thoughts.

02:11:30.480 My final thoughts are you've got all kinds of challenges, adults.

02:11:33.980 You're unwanted singleness.

02:11:35.560 You're in a struggling marriage.

02:11:36.680 You're post-divorce.

02:11:37.980 You're dealing with infertility.

02:11:39.060 You have same sex attraction.

02:11:40.120 You want to be parents.

02:11:41.940 You have a lot of struggles.

02:11:43.220 Those struggles are very, very real.

02:11:44.420 The solution is never to make a kid bend and sacrifice for you.

02:11:48.080 Someone is going to do the hard thing in those situations.

02:11:50.480 It needs to be you, the adult.

02:11:52.100 You are the one that sacrifices.

02:11:53.500 We don't make kids sacrifice for us.

02:11:55.260 And I'm sorry, but this culture is telling you, you can do anything that you want and

02:11:58.620 the kids are going to be fine.

02:11:59.700 That is a lie.

02:12:00.720 You are not allowed to harm the rights of your children, their right to life, their

02:12:03.860 right to their mother and father, their right to be born free and not bought and sold.

02:12:07.220 No, you adult have to sacrifice for children because the only alternative is for kids to

02:12:12.100 sacrifice for you and that is an injustice.

02:12:14.120 So that's my pitch.

02:12:15.200 Right on.

02:12:15.760 Any final thoughts, Jeff?

02:12:16.580 I think I'm a realist.

02:12:17.980 I'm not an idealist.

02:12:19.020 I think people should look at the world as it really is, that I've talked to young men

02:12:24.000 who are actually doing this.

02:12:25.440 I'm more describing a phenomena than advocating for it.

02:12:28.520 If we don't fix the system of incentives that exist in the United States, and particularly

02:12:33.560 around family law and the family, surrogacy will only grow.

02:12:37.920 And I think it's a rational decision by men to protect themselves, even as it is an unfortunate

02:12:43.960 one.

02:12:44.780 So we should really focus our efforts on fixing this incentive system.

02:12:48.840 Right on.

02:12:49.520 This has been a blast.

02:12:50.240 It was a really great conversation.

02:12:51.420 I appreciate both of you coming and hanging out.

02:12:53.060 Thanks for daring to do it.

02:12:54.480 Oh, yeah.

02:12:55.000 And more to come.

02:12:55.400 It was a great conversation.

02:12:56.060 Yeah.

02:12:56.300 Yeah.

02:12:56.900 It's good to see you again.

02:12:57.940 It's very good to see you.

02:12:59.480 Awesome.

02:13:00.060 And now we're going to go hang out.

02:13:01.700 So for everybody who's watching, thanks so much for hanging out.

02:13:04.260 It's been a blast.

02:13:04.820 You can become a member at TimCast.com.

02:13:07.160 The next show will be tonight at 8pm youtube.com slash TimCastIRL.

02:13:11.700 And we'll see you all there.

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The Culture War - Tim Pool - September 15, 2023

The Culture War #30 - Surrogacy, Men's Rights, and Modern Parenting w⧸ Jeff Younger & Katy Faust

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