The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #38 - Israel Vs. Palestine, US Foreign Policy, And Terror

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00:00:58.140 Oh boy, Israel and Palestine. This is a very, very serious subject that seems to get everyone's

00:01:08.040 emotions cranked all the way up to 11. I can talk about how in the United States, domestic

00:01:14.440 policy, you get the left, you get the right. But there are some people that can have a calm,

00:01:18.460 reasonable conversation with you. And then as soon as the issue of Israel-Palestine comes up,

00:01:22.020 it is cranked instantly up. Emotions are running high. So I'm really excited that once again,

00:01:26.600 we're going to be having this conversation, but I do think it'll be interesting, especially

00:01:29.560 considering the political ramifications of the domestic reaction to what's happening in Israel

00:01:35.240 with Hamas, with Gaza, with the West Bank. You have a lot of people who are at odds. You had

00:01:41.080 rioting just the other day in front of the DNC. Police made, I believe, only one arrest,

00:01:46.040 but several officers were injured. And these are left-leaning young people.

00:01:50.080 So we're now seeing polls that suggest 18 to 29-year-olds, more than half are at odds with

00:01:57.800 the Democrat official foreign policy position on Israel, which is going to have some very

00:02:02.340 serious ramifications for 2024. And that being said, we're going to start off just with the

00:02:07.680 conversation around Israel and Palestine, the moral justifications versus the criticisms of

00:02:13.820 military action, as well as, you know, IDF, Hamas, et cetera. And we've got two really awesome

00:02:18.180 guests to have this conversation, of course, returning. We have Scott Horton.

00:02:21.480 Happy to be here. Thank you, Tim.

00:02:22.640 Who are you, good sir?

00:02:23.920 I'm the editorial director of antiwar.com and the director of the Libertarian Institute.

00:02:28.520 And I'm the author of this book, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism.

00:02:32.740 Right on. And we have Will Chamberlain.

00:02:34.280 Yes. My name's Will Chamberlain. I'm senior counsel at the Internet Accountability Project

00:02:40.020 and the Article 3 Project. And formerly, I've worked on the Ronda Sanis campaign most recently

00:02:46.840 in his governor's office.

00:02:48.980 Right on.

00:02:49.460 Not anymore, though. That's important.

00:02:50.680 And so your position here is to defend the actions of Israel?

00:02:56.420 Yes. Like, I'm here to defend Israel's actions in Gaza and also just to defend Israeli policy

00:03:01.700 more broadly. Although, I mean, there's obviously going to be cases where I think Israel did

00:03:04.880 something wrong. I'm not a reflexive defender of the country.

00:03:07.780 Well, right on. I mean, let's just jump into it. I know, Scott, you wanted to start by saying.

00:03:12.760 I have a ton of things here. First of all, I wanted to say, by way of disclaimer, I know

00:03:18.080 a few people were saying things on Twitter, but my reputation as a debater comes from taking

00:03:24.400 on Bill Kristol and Kathy Young, both of whom I absolutely despise and quite deliberately

00:03:29.160 destroyed. And but I like you. I don't know you, but you're a friend of a friend of mine

00:03:34.540 and I have no vendetta here. And so I want to be nice and start off nice. And I actually

00:03:39.540 have a couple of gifts for you. First of all, this is Reclaiming the American Right

00:03:43.640 by Justin Raimondo, my mentor at antiwar.com, the late great. And it's about the real foundations

00:03:50.380 of the American right and then the rise of the neoconservatives and how they stole it.

00:03:56.600 And then this one is mine. Enough already time to end the war on terrorism. That's all

00:03:59.860 the wars from Jimmy Carter through Trump in the Middle East.

00:04:02.980 Well, thank you.

00:04:03.860 By me. So I hope you like them. And that's my my gift to start here.

00:04:08.980 And then also, I want to say, Tim, to your audience, which I know is gigantic and most

00:04:13.360 of whom don't know me by way of disclaimer, I want to be very clear about this. I am not

00:04:18.040 an anti-Semite. OK, and the truth is there are a lot of people who actually are even in

00:04:23.340 my mentions on Twitter. Right. And the truth is anyone who actually is an anti-Semite will

00:04:28.180 be happy to tell you that they are and will be happy to try to get you to be one, too.

00:04:32.280 And that just doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

00:04:35.300 I know that people kind of assume that, oh, if you're talking bad about Israel, it must

00:04:39.300 just be because you hate Jews. But I'm just telling you that's stupid. And it's not where

00:04:42.800 I'm coming from at all. Just so that people understand that about me. I'm against terrorism,

00:04:47.400 even when it's backed by the United States and its allies. I obviously oppose what Hamas

00:04:52.100 did on October the 7th. In fact, an extended family member of mine was kidnapped and killed

00:04:57.300 by Hamas in that attack. I don't take it lightly at all. I don't believe every claim

00:05:03.600 by Hamas. They have a huge incentive to embellish. Increasing their victimhood was the reason

00:05:08.900 for their attack in the first place here. So just because someone is sniped doesn't mean

00:05:13.080 we know exactly who sniped them. And I'm not one to try to jump to those kind of conclusions.

00:05:18.220 And it is also true that Hamas sometimes does hide behind civilians, although that is quite

00:05:24.140 exaggerated. And Israel's killed more than 10,000 people using that as a cheap excuse.

00:05:29.820 Um, but it is true that Hamas does fire from civilian areas. Uh, that's no, that's an accusation

00:05:36.340 by me, no concession. And, uh, my, uh, last disclaimer here is I don't care at all what

00:05:44.100 leftist protesters or college kids or tick tock wine moms say about anything. And that association

00:05:50.480 doesn't have anything to do with me. And if anyone wants to hang that on me, well, then you're all

00:05:53.820 gay married to Lindsey Graham and Bill Kristol, and you should all sign up under the foreign agents

00:05:58.600 registration act because you put Israel first, just so we're even on the guilt by association

00:06:03.520 thing. Okay. Now opening argument here, supporting Israel is not in America's interest. Joe Biden

00:06:11.000 says if there was no Israel, we would have to invent it. He says it's an American aircraft

00:06:15.060 carrier, an unsinkable aircraft carrier, but he never explains how Israel in fact is nothing

00:06:19.860 but a burden on our country. For example, right now, U S forces are being repeatedly attacked

00:06:24.620 in Syria and Iraq. None have been killed yet, but many have already been injured and the

00:06:29.980 tit for tat, which is obviously a result, uh, reaction to the strike. So what's happening

00:06:34.560 in Israel, Palestine right now. And we already lost five guys. They say in a training accident,

00:06:39.500 Tim, I don't know exactly what happened to him. Maybe it was, uh, but we already have five

00:06:43.540 dead here and the strikes going back and forth in Syria and Iraq threatened to grow into a true

00:06:49.620 regional war. We could have Iraq war four as the result of what's going on, uh, in Israel,

00:06:55.780 Palestine right now. And perhaps this is what James Mattis was referring to in July, 2013,

00:07:00.880 when he said, quote, I pay a military security price every day as the commander of CENTCOM,

00:07:06.060 because the Americans are seen as biased in support of Israel. And when David Petraeus told

00:07:11.760 Congress in 2010, the enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct

00:07:18.660 challenges to our ability to advance our interests. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment due to

00:07:24.700 a perception of us favoritism for Israel, Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the

00:07:29.720 strength and depth of us partnerships with governments and peoples in the region and weakens

00:07:34.100 the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda and other militant groups

00:07:40.000 exploit that anger to mobilize support. It's the smartest thing America's worst general ever said in

00:07:45.480 his life. Donald Trump said, quote, we should never have been in the Middle East. It was the single

00:07:52.540 greatest mistake in the history of our country. Well, he doesn't know much about Woodrow Wilson,

00:07:58.440 but he's close. And it's interesting, Tim, that we still have troops in Syria because don't you

00:08:04.240 remember Donald Trump, president Donald Trump ordered them withdrawn in 2017, 2018, and 2020.

00:08:11.360 And he was overruled by the Pentagon and the Israel lobby. Remember Joe Kent, the almost and future

00:08:18.880 congressman from Washington state? His wife was killed in Syria after Trump ordered her withdrawn.

00:08:24.260 And anybody watching this right now can just Google it. 2008, Trump, Syria, Israel. And you'll find

00:08:30.920 2018, Trump, Syria, Israel. And you'll see all the headlines about how Trump is betraying Israel and

00:08:40.720 leaving them high and dry if we pull our troops out of Iraq. So what are they even doing in Syria in the

00:08:47.400 first place? Okay, well, therein hangs a tale. I'll try to do this as fast as I can. After the revolution

00:08:54.180 in 1979, Israel still backed Iran. They weren't scared of Shiite fundamentalism then. And remember

00:09:01.940 when Ronald Reagan backed Iraq against Iran, Israel backed Iran. And remember during Iran-Contra when

00:09:08.900 Reagan actually backed Iran for a little while and sold them some missiles, he sold the missiles

00:09:12.380 through Israel. They were the cutout because Israel were the ones who had maintained that relationship

00:09:16.660 with Iran all through the 1980s, right? Well, then after Rock War I, which Israel didn't start,

00:09:24.000 that was the U.S. and the U.K. that got us into Rock War I, although they did support it.

00:09:28.080 After Rock War I, Bush Sr. kept the troops in Saudi Arabia. But then he lost the election. And Bill

00:09:35.080 Clinton's plan was to pull the troops out of Saudi Arabia and normalize relations with Iraq and Iran.

00:09:40.680 And Iran, the mean old Ayatollah, had died. The new Ayatollah was in and a more moderate president.

00:09:46.200 And they wanted to normalize relations. But Israel insisted on what was called the dual

00:09:52.360 containment policy. And it was inaugurated by a guy named Martin Indyk, who had worked for Yitzhak

00:09:58.080 Shamir, the prime minister of Israel. Now here he is working for Bill Clinton. And he's the founder

00:10:02.980 of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, which is a spinoff of the American-Israel Public

00:10:07.660 Affairs Committee. And in a speech at Wynep, he announced the dual containment policy. America will

00:10:12.900 stay in Saudi Arabia through the rest of Clinton's presidency in order to contain Iraq and Iran both.

00:10:19.340 Why? Because America, well, first of all, Israel had helped build up Iran for 10 years. And now

00:10:25.160 America, with Israel's support, had just beat up on Iraq. So now Iraq wasn't powerful enough to

00:10:31.200 balance against Iran. So the Israelis insisted America had to stay in Saudi to contain them both.

00:10:37.200 And that was the proximate cause of the provocation of the September 11th attack on the United States

00:10:45.240 of America. And after Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Netanyahu fan in 1995, Prime Minister Shimon

00:10:54.220 Perez launched what was called Operation Grapes of Wrath in southern Lebanon. And Mohammed Atta,

00:11:00.520 the lead hijacker of September 11th, and his friends from what's called the Hamburg cell of the pilot

00:11:05.640 hijackers from September 11th. When that started, they signed their last will and testament and

00:11:10.840 decided they're going to join essentially the army and go to war against the United States.

00:11:15.320 And a few months later, when bin Laden put out his first declaration of war,

00:11:19.660 called Declaration of War Against the Americans, Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places,

00:11:25.380 in there he went on and on about Grapes of Wrath and about the Kana Massacre,

00:11:30.480 where 106 women and children were killed in a UN shelter. And according to Lawrence Wright in his

00:11:36.840 book, The Looming Tower, and Terry McDermott in his book, Perfect Soldiers, this was what convinced

00:11:42.520 Mohammed Atta and Ramzi bin al-Shib and their friends to join al-Qaeda. And it was then that

00:11:47.280 they decided to travel to Afghanistan and join the attack. So what happened on September 11th was some

00:11:53.580 Egyptians were answering a call by a Saudi to avenge Lebanese killed by Israelis by crashing their

00:12:01.580 planes into towers in the United States of America. And instead of explaining that to your mama,

00:12:06.580 they said, Bush said literally, quote, they hate our freedom. And that was what they told the American

00:12:12.920 people was that radical Islam makes people hate virtue and innocence and whiteness and people's love for

00:12:21.620 their mama. When in fact, what it was, was these were mercenaries who had fought for America, Saudi,

00:12:27.920 and Pakistan in the Holy War in Afghanistan in the 1980s. They had fought for Bill Clinton in Bosnia,

00:12:35.260 Kosovo, and Chechnya in the 1990s. And even though he supported them, he had not bought off their loyalty.

00:12:41.640 And the Israeli insisted policy of staying in Saudi to dual contain Iraq and Iran and support for Israel

00:12:48.960 their war crimes in Palestine and Lebanon were the reasons brought for the September 11th attack,

00:12:55.800 the motive for the attack. And I know everybody's going crazy because the wine moms on TikTok found

00:13:00.760 the letter to America. Well, they should read the declarations of war from 96 and 98. The letter

00:13:06.280 to America is after the fact. But what's important about that is that what they're saying in there is

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00:14:40.460 Well, as I saw you putting it on on on Twitter, Tim, that these women are like being convinced

00:14:50.040 by Osama like he's right or something. Well, I think that's a little bit overstating it. But

00:14:53.940 the point is, if he's so convincing to them, think how convincing he was to a bunch of Egyptians

00:14:58.340 studying engineering in Germany and saying this is the enemy and this is what should be done

00:15:03.220 about it. But it's not it's not wine moms. Oh, well, whatever. Anyway, whatever. I'm not on

00:15:08.740 TikTok, but I'm saying people people are getting this wrong. But the point is this, OK? And Michael

00:15:13.980 Scheuer, the former chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit, emphasized this over and over again, that

00:15:18.600 when Ayatollah Khomeini denounced American culture, nobody really cared. But when Osama bin Laden pointed

00:15:26.660 at specific American foreign policies, regardless of what he believed, this is what

00:15:33.220 was successful recruitment shtick for him to recruit the likes of Mohammed Atta and them

00:15:38.580 to attack the United States of America. OK, so you don't have to take bin Laden's motive

00:15:44.060 personally, what he believed. We don't know what he believed. We know what he told people

00:15:48.760 to get them to do what he wanted to do. And this is what he did is he focused on American

00:15:53.360 foreign policies and not America being a nice guy and not Israel being a nice little Jewish

00:15:58.440 boy minding his own business. But America doing the wrong thing, blockading and bombing

00:16:03.480 Iraq, supporting Israel, bombing U.N. shelters full of women and children. This is what's

00:16:08.920 called blowback. As Ron Paul pointed out, the CIA coined the term means long term consequences

00:16:15.000 of secret foreign policies that come back to bite us. As Ron Paul said in the Giuliani moment,

00:16:21.280 we were bombing Iraq from bases in Saudi for 10 years before the September 11th attack.

00:16:27.440 Now, Tim, hang on one second, because the next day, Benjamin Netanyahu gave an interview

00:16:32.100 to The New York Times where he said, quote, it's very good. Well, not very good, but it

00:16:38.560 will generate immediate sympathy. And he predicted the attack would, quote, strengthen the bond

00:16:43.300 between our two peoples. So even though the attack was provoked by Israeli policies and Israeli

00:16:49.440 insisted policies, they saw a huge advantage. And in Ariel Sharon and his government, I'm almost

00:16:55.300 done here. And the neoconservatives, what did they do? I'm actually not almost done here,

00:17:00.340 but I swear to God, I'll be quiet for 20 minutes.

00:17:02.780 But wait, but it's not even that. You've made so many points that I think are just wrong.

00:17:06.400 And it's like, if you want to open the show by saying, I'm going to do an opening statement

00:17:09.860 now, 15 minutes in, and you've glossed over so many extremely important details as to what

00:17:14.300 you're saying. All right. All right. How about this? What I want to get to is like,

00:17:18.440 it's taken a long time, but we haven't talked at all about why you think Israel is wrong about the

00:17:24.120 current conflict in Gaza, right? Like, I feel like that wasn't my opening statement, but I got

00:17:28.500 plenty on that into that, that like, you know, and so we can, well, that's changing the subject from

00:17:32.800 what I was talking about, which was American support for Israel. It causes these huge problems

00:17:38.720 for us. If you want to go back over any of those statements, I'm happy to. I know Will's written

00:17:43.040 or I've been paying. Yeah, I've been, I've been writing down in detail. Or would you like to let

00:17:47.660 me finish? Sure. Okay. So, so then what happened was the neoconservatives, who are the neoconservatives?

00:17:53.060 They're the vanguard of the Israel lobby in the United States of America is who they are.

00:17:57.140 And inside the Bush government, this is what Colin Powell called the JINSA crowd, meaning the Jewish

00:18:03.180 Institute for National Security Affairs, Richard Pearl and his friends. And Colin Powell said,

00:18:08.720 they set up a separate government inside the government. They created in the Pentagon, something

00:18:13.120 called the Office of Special Plans, where they laundered all the fake intelligence to lie us into

00:18:18.940 war. And the reason they did it was because David Wormser and Richard Pearl and Douglas Fythe had this

00:18:25.620 strategy called the clean break. And it said, if we get rid of Saddam in Iraq, totally nonsensically,

00:18:32.400 this is the Rube Goldberg scheme we talked about last time, Tim. If we get rid of Sunni Saddam in Iraq,

00:18:37.900 that will empower Jordan and Turkey there. And then they will use their influence over the Shiite

00:18:43.500 clergy in Najaf to, quote, wean Hezbollah away from Iran and make them start being friends with

00:18:53.020 Israel. And then by neutralizing Hezbollah's pressure on Israel on their northern flank, they will then

00:18:59.960 not have to abide by the Oslo Accord and give the Palestinians an independent state. And they can get

00:19:05.740 away with, this is the clean break, instead of peace through land for peace, it'll be peace through

00:19:12.980 strength. And we will dominate the region. And then, but what happened? The neocons were fools. And they

00:19:19.320 didn't empower Turkey and Jordan in Iraq. They empowered Iran in Iraq. And that was what that

00:19:25.080 whole five-year war was for. It was what they call in soccer an own goal, where these neocons, in fact,

00:19:30.900 empowered the Shiite Iranians and their axis. And which led to then, and this is so important for

00:19:37.840 people to read, the redirection by Seymour Hersh from 2007, explains how then they turned around.

00:19:45.140 In fact, this is in the WikiLeaks. People Google golden platter, and you'll see where the Saudi king,

00:19:50.600 it's not all Israel here, the Saudi king told Zalmay Khalilzad, it used to be you and us and Saddam

00:19:56.800 against Iran. Now you've given Iraq to Iran on a golden platter. And Khalilzad says, don't worry,

00:20:03.540 your highness, we're going to fix it. Hang on, I'm almost, I swear to God. And then this was the

00:20:08.080 reason then, Tim, why Barack Obama backed al-Qaeda in Syria from 2011 through the end of his presidency

00:20:16.960 was because Bush put Iran up two pegs in Baghdad. So now they were trying to take them down a peg

00:20:23.520 in Syria. And as I demonstrate in the book through block quote after block quote after block quote,

00:20:28.820 this was the entire policy was Israel has been harmed by Iraq war two and the empowering of

00:20:36.260 the Shiites. And now, so to protect the Israelis, we have to tilt back toward the Sunnis, but the

00:20:41.940 Saudis don't have a big infantry. They just have al-Qaeda shock troops. And that led to the rise of the

00:20:47.480 Islamic State caliphate and Iraq war three, all of this because of American support for Israel.

00:20:55.280 When we don't have, none of this would have happened without that. I don't know. Yeah,

00:21:00.220 they'll well take it away. All right. So, okay. I want to just start out with like the basic core of

00:21:05.060 my contention. I'm certainly willing to defend America's general defense of Israel in support of

00:21:09.440 it. But I think like the core of my argument, at least certainly on Twitter and elsewhere has been

00:21:16.460 Israel is justified in attacking, uh, in defending itself against Hamas and its actions in Hamas,

00:21:23.380 against Hamas in Gaza have been totally justified. I don't know what would be a more just war than

00:21:28.980 fighting against the organization that decided to raid your country and murder, butcher, and kill

00:21:34.720 1500 of your citizens, kidnap 240 more. Um, I don't know what you would have a military for if not to

00:21:40.680 defend yourself against that. If this isn't justified military action, what would be? Um, and

00:21:45.660 it's, it's also gets to the point of like, why should, if Israel isn't willing to defend itself

00:21:50.960 in these terms, then it should just fold up as a country because in any country that isn't willing

00:21:55.300 to protect its citizens from an action like this, it's just going to fold. People will leave and it

00:21:59.500 would just be the end of their, it would be the end of their nation state. Um, no country in the world

00:22:04.200 would be expected to tolerate a Hamas like organization on their border. If we had something

00:22:08.880 like this in Tijuana or even on an Indian reservation, I know that Scott has liked to use kind of Indian

00:22:12.900 reservations as an analogy, but if we, there was suddenly an Indian reservation that formed

00:22:16.980 an Hamas like organization and started attacking neighboring cities, this would be a similar

00:22:21.000 response. We would not tolerate it. And if we did tolerate it, it would lead to at least the end of

00:22:25.700 the current government, right? The, you know, the kicking out of the politicians who agreed to it.

00:22:29.880 Um, but also potentially people just leaving. So I think it's fundamentally justified. Um, I don't,

00:22:35.360 I mean, I see a lot of people talking about Israeli genocide and things like that,

00:22:39.020 that they're bombing indiscriminately or carpet bombing. I think that's total nonsense. Um,

00:22:43.420 there's, uh, you know, I think something like the relative, you know, they've put first off and

00:22:48.580 foremost, most obviously they essentially gave, you know, people in Gaza two weeks to evacuate North

00:22:54.060 Gaza, to move to the South portion of the strip. And they have like, generally, they are clearly

00:23:00.860 targeting Hamas. If they wanted to, they had the capacity to just essentially obliterate the Gaza

00:23:05.240 strip. It's not a large piece of land. It's roughly the size of Las Vegas. So Israel is a

00:23:09.500 very strong military. If they wanted to simply obliterate it and leave nothing there, they could

00:23:13.180 have done that. They didn't, they're being surgical and they're trying to target Hamas.

00:23:16.660 And, uh, they're, they're being righteous in doing so. And, and, and the calls for a ceasefire

00:23:20.940 are nonsense, especially now because most of the population of the, of Gaza city has evacuated down

00:23:25.700 to the South. So we're not, the civilian casualties have dropped markedly in the last few days. I think

00:23:29.520 there's a reason you haven't seen the same sort of stuff coming up in the media. It's because the people,

00:23:32.880 only people left in North Gaza are mostly Hamas. And as a result, this is actually the perfect time

00:23:39.240 to finish the job of dismantling all the terrorist infrastructure, dismantling the tunnels. I mean,

00:23:43.780 I think people forget essentially Hamas built a castle underneath Gaza city. That's where they built

00:23:48.400 their fortifications. And the solution to that problem is, is tricky in terms of avoiding civilian

00:23:52.900 casualties. But I think Israel has done anything that any country in their situation would do. And if

00:23:58.000 not more so by giving that much notice for people to evacuate. So that's, that's my broad

00:24:02.020 thesis about, you know, since we're, you know, this is the current conflict, it's what's ongoing

00:24:05.440 right now. I think Israel is perfectly justified in what it's doing. Um, I think, you know, in terms

00:24:10.300 of what America is specifically doing in regard to this, I don't think their contributions to push

00:24:14.220 for a ceasefire are helpful. Um, because Hamas is an organization committed to the destruction of

00:24:18.640 Israel. I don't, and has indicated it is, has the will to just, you know, kill every man,

00:24:23.300 woman and child in Israel. They just don't have the means right now, but after October 7th,

00:24:26.960 who can question that they do want to do that. Um, so that's, you know, that's the core of the

00:24:32.560 question. Now, I mean, broadly speaking, I will answer the question of, do I think it is in

00:24:38.460 America's interest to support Israel? I absolutely think it is. Um, it is a outpost of Western

00:24:44.060 civilization in the Middle East. It is one of the most innovative technologically. Um,

00:24:48.560 our military benefits enormously, and that the strength and power of the United States is a good

00:24:52.860 thing for us as American citizens. We do not want to live in a weak country, whether or not,

00:24:57.440 you know, I'm not pro Iraq regime change war. I'm not like, I'm, you know, I have as much contempt

00:25:02.340 for bill crystal as you do. Maybe not quite as much, but almost as much. Um, so I'm not like,

00:25:07.760 this isn't for a purpose of the regime change war, but I, it is good for American citizens that

00:25:11.380 we live in a strong country with a strong military is what it allows us to have the dollar remain as a

00:25:15.320 reserve currency. Um, our military, you know, it, it allows it get, there's a lot of benefits that

00:25:20.680 come to American citizens from us being strong. And we shouldn't want it. We shouldn't want

00:25:24.120 ourselves weakened. And Israel does help us be stronger. Um, it's the only source of intelligence

00:25:28.620 we get on the Middle East there. I mean, at least human intelligence, we get plenty of signals

00:25:31.480 intelligence from all our tech, but Israel is uniquely good at, you know, having people on the

00:25:35.680 ground in various countries, Arabic speakers, people couldn't actually get real human intelligence.

00:25:40.540 And I think it's, you know, it's a country that is ultimately, you know, from the perspective

00:25:44.920 of conservatives, you know, since we're talking about reclaiming the American right, it's one of the

00:25:48.300 only right wing countries in the Western world. Um, the only one of the conservative countries,

00:25:53.180 it's like them and Hungary and Poland for maybe like two months longer, because Poland's about to

00:25:57.500 be taken over by liberals. We should want to see, you know, a Western country that one that is able

00:26:02.080 to, you know, actually, and one that isn't suffering these massive birth rate problems that all the other

00:26:06.100 Western countries are suffering from one that isn't so reflexively anti-American. Um, I think we should

00:26:10.860 want them to survive. We should support them and we should see them as a good thing. Um, and I mean,

00:26:16.220 there's, you know, again, your, your opening statement contained a huge, you know, like historical

00:26:21.360 background into, you know, American relations in Israel. Um, I think it's, I mean, I could go down

00:26:27.940 each of these in, in individual points, but I, I think I want to get to the, the heart of, you know,

00:26:33.860 if the, if the core thesis of these arguments is that our support for Israel angers the Arab world,

00:26:38.760 it is underlying, motivates people like bin Laden, it motivates people to join Al Qaeda, et cetera.

00:26:43.680 Right. I think the first obvious point is they wouldn't like us anyway. Or for example,

00:26:49.000 Iran of all people will not, is still not happy about the coup and Mossadegh and all that. They're

00:26:52.920 not, you know, they just wouldn't suddenly like us and be happy with us in a world where we stopped

00:26:56.740 supporting Israel. Um, it also ignores that there, they are, have motivations beyond blowback. I think

00:27:01.680 one thing, you know, one reason I'm not a libertarian anymore. Get ready for a Las Vegas style action

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00:28:01.120 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops. So on behalf of Desjardins

00:28:08.360 Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

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00:28:27.160 Did I mention that we care?

00:28:31.660 One reason I reject the libertarian thesis is there's sort of a totalizing focus on blowback

00:28:36.740 as the central question of how foreign policy works and how people operate, i.e. their motivations in

00:28:43.640 attacking us are almost all reactive. They are all in response to what we do. And it ignores the fact

00:28:49.040 that they have their own proactive agency, that there is plenty of motivation within the Islamic world

00:28:55.360 to actually establish a caliphate, to establish Sharia law in places. That was what we saw in

00:29:00.160 ISIS and all those videos. Like, no, this isn't a group that's just reactive. They have a worldview

00:29:04.380 that they want to impose as well. And that's true of Hamas as well. They're not there just to have

00:29:08.840 their own state. They want Israel gone. They want from the river to the sea. And the idea that merely

00:29:15.240 us stopping supporting Israel would just solve all our problems in the Middle East, I think is naive.

00:29:19.260 Um, so I'll address this too, because I mentioned in your opening statement, Scott, there are things

00:29:24.240 that, that, that, uh, I believe you said that were, were, were wrong. And what I mean by that is

00:29:27.960 nothing historical or factual. Um, the, the issue I took with primarily was you determining what

00:29:32.920 their motivations were outside of the things they've said themselves to Al Qaeda. So particularly many of

00:29:37.880 them, as well as, uh, uh, bin Laden himself noted, uh, noting the bin Laden letter has been going viral

00:29:43.140 because as you mentioned, TikTok wine moms, but it's like 17 year olds, it's 20 year olds,

00:29:47.560 it's college students. And they're not just saying he made some interesting points, or they're not

00:29:52.080 just saying, I did not realize this perspective. These people are outright posting that he was

00:29:56.280 correct. And what, uh, and, and so we can start, we can start with this. Uh, uh, I'll give you a

00:30:01.420 second, uh, uh, to respond in just a moment. Will mentions the libertarian argument that it is

00:30:06.060 wholly a blowback. This is what happened last night on, on Timcast IRL. When I was talking with

00:30:10.700 Dave Smith and Clint Russell, it seemed that the libertarian perspective, something Glenn, Glenn Greenwald

00:30:16.760 tweeted, uh, Glenn Greenwald tweeted that bin Laden's three main grievances were very, very specific

00:30:24.380 U.S. military and foreign policy, uh, uh, actions, including sanctions, invasion, et cetera. However,

00:30:30.840 if you actually read the full text of his letter, not that you should take him seriously, it seems to

00:30:34.060 be a great propaganda and recruiting tool, which hits a lot of points. The core component starts with

00:30:39.060 Palestine specifically, and then goes into what bin Laden meant by attack on us was the imposition of

00:30:46.360 Western values over what should be Islamic Sharia states. He then dedicates half of the letter

00:30:52.100 specifically to the amorality and immorality of the West, fornication, homosexuality, usury, et cetera.

00:30:57.860 So, uh, to Will's point, many libertarians are outright saying, oh, it's, it's the military

00:31:03.180 actions, the foreign policy. If you were going to try and make that argument, you'd have to,

00:31:07.700 you'd have to further assume bin Laden didn't actually mean anything about Islam. He actually

00:31:13.280 was on. I, I, I, I don't think we can make those assumptions. Well, look, I don't think everything

00:31:18.220 is also black and white. I don't think anyone denies that bin Laden himself was a Salafi, you know,

00:31:23.900 hardcore Wahhabi and all this, but it's like a rectangle and a square, all squares are rectangles,

00:31:29.000 but not all rectangles are squares. Right? So there are millions of Salafis and Wahhabis who do not

00:31:35.700 share bin Laden's politics or terrorism at all. Look at the height of the ISIS caliphate that Barack

00:31:41.000 Obama built for them. Well, first George W. Bush and then Barack Obama built for them in Western

00:31:46.340 Iraq and Eastern Syria at the height of their power. They had a couple of hundred thousand

00:31:50.120 fighters who had gone to fight out of 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Where are all the jihadis?

00:31:56.600 They don't share bin Laden's politics. Even oftentimes the most extremely fundamentalist Muslims

00:32:03.100 are quietists. They obey the part of the Quran that says, whoever your King, he wouldn't be your

00:32:09.020 King. If ma, if Allah didn't want it that way. And it's not your job to care about that. It's your

00:32:14.620 job to care about your afterlife. And there, that used to be the American tradition among Christian

00:32:20.400 fundamentalists as well. They were quietists and stayed out of politics mostly. And so yes,

00:32:25.300 bin Laden was a right-wing religious kook. And yes, as you said, he wanted to build a caliphate.

00:32:29.640 As I explained in the book, the whole point was bin Laden at the time of September 11th

00:32:36.120 was 400 guys was Al Qaeda bin Laden and his friends hiding out in Nangarhar province on the Afghan

00:32:42.820 Pakistan border and in exile, as far as you could get from anywhere in no man's land. He had no ability

00:32:49.120 to create a caliphate, even in Nangarhar. Hell, the Taliban's great success in Afghanistan was due to

00:32:55.900 the help of Saudi Pakistan and Bill Clinton's United States of America helped the Taliban in

00:33:00.640 the 1990s because they wanted to build an oil pipeline through there. They wanted the Taliban

00:33:04.620 to win. So caliphate, shmaliphate, look at the map. The whole place is carved up with Westphalia

00:33:10.840 nation states run by a bunch of sultans and potentates and dictators and el presidentes who

00:33:16.980 have nothing in common with each other and hate each other's guts. You got Sunni-Shia splits,

00:33:21.160 Persian-Arab splits, and this and that. What caused the caliphate? What gave the ability of

00:33:27.360 400 nobodies, 400 bandits on the Afghan-Pakistan border the ability within 15 years to create a

00:33:36.180 caliphate in Syria and Iraq? It was George Bush and Barack Obama doing what the Israel lobby wanted

00:33:44.260 and going to war in Iraq and Syria. Sure. So I agree the Iraq war was a mistake, obviously.

00:33:49.980 I don't think the relative feasibility of creating a caliphate is relevant to the discussion of what

00:33:56.860 bin Laden's motives were and whether ultimately Israel is right. So I mean, you know, getting back

00:34:03.080 to like, why is, you know, basically the idea here is, okay, so I don't think you've actually refuted

00:34:10.460 the underlying argument, which is that blowback is not the, I mean, you, maybe you just agree blowback

00:34:14.600 is not the underlying, the only reason or the only motivation.

00:34:17.500 What I didn't say is the, I never said it was the only anything, right? I mean, what's with all

00:34:21.420 the black and white? The point is these guys had a daydream about someday conquering the Middle East

00:34:27.160 and they could have never gotten anywhere near that without getting America to essentially quote,

00:34:35.280 fall for their scam because the scam was, I don't know if you've ever read this, but bin Laden's son

00:34:39.700 gave an interview to Rolling Stone in 2010 where he says, when Bush won, my father was so happy.

00:34:44.920 This is the kind of president that he needs. One who will go to war and break the bank. This is what

00:34:51.340 Michael Scheuer, the former chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit wrote in Imperial Hubris. He said,

00:34:56.960 America is completing the radicalization of the Middle East that Al-Qaeda could never have achieved

00:35:03.700 on their own. America and Al-Qaeda are strategic allies. And really like, this is what makes me a

00:35:09.660 reverse 9-11 truther. I think you could make a lot better case that the whole US national security

00:35:15.560 state were secretly working for Al-Qaeda than the other way around because we're the ones doing

00:35:19.880 their dirty work throughout the Middle East here this whole time. So let's take this to Israel.

00:35:24.420 Okay, good. Cause I do want to talk about Hamas and Al-Qaeda too, but I wanted to clarify about that.

00:35:28.460 This is actually like, cause this is a point I've been thinking about cause I've listened to your

00:35:31.760 podcast appearances. And so, and one of the points that you've repeatedly made about what the,

00:35:35.180 how the Israeli government should act is that they need to, the goal of Hamas is similar to the goal

00:35:41.820 of Al-Qaeda. They were trying to, you know, inspire blowback against them and then rally the Muslim

00:35:47.560 world to fight Israel. And so Israel instead of, you know, needed to be thoughtful and, you know,

00:35:54.600 should not have attacked. Right. So, you know, doesn't want to act rashly. And so the first thing

00:35:59.440 I'd say is I don't think Israel is actually acting rashly. I think the rash response to,

00:36:04.860 something like the 10-7 massacre is, oh, we'll just nuke the place. Right. That's the rash response.

00:36:10.180 That's the, we'll just drop Moabs. We're just going to, you know, enough, right. Gaza is not so

00:36:14.160 big. We could just destroy it all. That's, that's the rash response. That response got quashed within

00:36:18.700 Israel and its military establishment. They said, no, we're not just going to carpet bomb. I know people

00:36:23.320 have accused them of that, but that's not what they're doing. We are going to invade, you know,

00:36:28.080 evacuate the civilian population, try and minimize civilian casualties, but we're going to tolerate some

00:36:32.700 because ultimately we can't tolerate the continued existence of the Hamas organization right on our

00:36:37.360 border. So we are going to go in there, kill as many Hamas people as we can, dismantle all the

00:36:42.620 terrorist infrastructure. And then who knows exactly how we're going to handle like de-Hamasification of

00:36:48.660 Gaza going forward, but we're not going to allow a return to Gaza coming back. That's, I think,

00:36:54.360 a reasonable response. And I don't think-

00:36:56.780 You mean Hamas coming back?

00:36:57.800 Yeah, we're not going to let Hamas come back. And I guess my point being that even if there,

00:37:02.940 I guess there's two independent points, right? Hamas wants the reaction. Okay. But sometimes you

00:37:08.000 can do something that you force a reaction. Like in any game, there are things called forcing moves

00:37:11.960 where you make a move and it forces your opponent to respond in a certain way because the alternatives

00:37:15.760 are far worse, right? If you, as a terrorist organization, kill 1500 and butcher them and maim them

00:37:21.880 in a brutal way, that is a forcing move if we're talking about it. Like you are forcing a response

00:37:27.360 out of the Israeli government because if they do not respond, they will lose all credibility.

00:37:32.160 People will leave Israel. The whole state might as well fold. So they have to respond. And moreover,

00:37:37.920 if the idea is, well, we can't respond, you know, like first off, I'm not even sure that's what

00:37:44.420 they're trying to do. It's not necessarily that they're trying to generate an Israeli response.

00:37:47.380 They were trying to go viral. This is the equivalent of a loomer stunt in the foreign

00:37:51.540 policy world, right? It is an attempt to do something bizarre and outlandish and horrifyingly

00:37:57.400 barbaric that it is going to go viral regardless of what Israel does, which is what indeed happened.

00:38:03.380 If we allow that to succeed as a matter of foreign policy, what do you think will happen in the future?

00:38:08.340 We will get more 10-7s nonstop. There has to be a massive disincentive to engage in the kind of

00:38:13.840 conduct that Hamas is engaged in because there is obviously a benefit they are trying to achieve,

00:38:18.420 which is going viral, bringing attention back to their cause.

00:38:21.200 Wait, which side of the argument are you on? It sounds like you're saying we shouldn't be doing

00:38:23.940 what they wanted us to do, which is bomb them the way-

00:38:26.500 My side of the argument is consistent. Israel is right. Israel is right to go in there and punish

00:38:30.660 them brutally, right? And punish Hamas brutally. So the idea is the question of whether or not we do

00:38:37.080 what Hamas wants, I don't think you seem to think that that's an important question in the sense of like,

00:38:42.220 oh, we need to not fall into their trap. My point is that's an irrelevant question because one,

00:38:46.620 it's a forcing move. And two, the imperative of punishing this sort of stunt barbarism is

00:38:52.700 overwhelming. So you are making the point, Scott, that bin Laden wanted George W. Bush to go to war

00:39:00.520 to use as a radicalizing force. Will is pointing out that Hamas is making a forcing move to try and,

00:39:05.940 I would assume, trigger the West into moves which could radicalize. But I think Will takes it one

00:39:11.200 step further saying, eradicate Hamas for this reason so they can't do it again. Is that what

00:39:15.340 you're saying?

00:39:15.540 Yeah. And to deter this kind of tactic by being used by other groups in the future, right?

00:39:20.840 So look, take the analogy back to Al-Qaeda. At the time of September 11th, Ron Paul issued a letter

00:39:28.000 of Mark and reprisal and said, we should send special operations forces to target and kill bin Laden and

00:39:34.880 his friends and anybody who wants to get in between our guys and his guys. Not regime change Kabul and

00:39:41.900 carpet bomb the Pashtuns for 20 years. Sorry, precision bomb the Pashtuns for 20 years. Okay.

00:39:48.680 And then go to Iraq against Sunni Saddam who, you know, secular Sunni Saddam who didn't do it.

00:39:55.460 And then on to Libya and Syria and Yemen and the rest of this chaos that they spread.

00:39:59.880 And Iran, if they get their way. So that's, if you want to just on the analogy back to Hamas here,

00:40:09.100 we all know, and our mutual friend, Daryl Cooper has explained this well, and he's a military guy

00:40:15.100 and knows the history of this very well. That, and back to the analogy about Gaza being an Indian

00:40:21.040 reservation and not the nation state next door. What that means is that Shin Bet and Mossad and the IDF

00:40:27.080 can reach out and touch these guys one at a time. And that's how they dealt with terrorism for decades

00:40:32.480 was reach out and kill these guys, abduct them and imprison them, execute them, assassinate them

00:40:38.260 one at a time, not bomb the whole place to the ground. And I want to talk about a couple of things

00:40:44.020 that you mentioned here about things that other people are saying. I haven't been calling it a

00:40:47.880 genocide. Okay. I think there's a question about whether they're going to let the people of Gaza come

00:40:52.380 back. They leaked some trial balloons about forcing them all into the Sinai and this kind of thing.

00:40:56.420 I don't think it's clear that that's what's happening here. And I don't like to throw that

00:41:00.700 term around wildly. You haven't heard me say that. I also have not been saying that they've been

00:41:05.400 bombing indiscriminately, but the thing is, that's not really what counts. And we learned this from

00:41:10.540 the Syria war and Iraq war three, for example, where the Russians and the Syrians would bomb in a

00:41:15.840 much more careless way than the Americans. But then what it turned out is the casualty rates on the

00:41:20.380 ground were the same. And as Chris Woods and the guys from airwars.org showed it's population density

00:41:25.820 below, not the precision and the care of your strikes that really makes the difference.

00:41:31.040 And Colonel Amos Fox from the U.S. Army wrote a study on what he called the precision paradox,

00:41:37.080 where he talked about, geez, we were only hitting one building very carefully, sometimes even one side

00:41:42.480 of one building very carefully, one at a time. And then one day we looked up and we had destroyed

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00:42:48.020 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:42:52.400 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients

00:42:57.680 that we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird,

00:43:05.580 I don't remember saying that part. Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get insurance that's really big

00:43:11.840 on care. Did I mention that we care? We had destroyed half of the city of Mosul. And it's

00:43:21.340 not exactly carpet bombing, but yes, it's killing tens of thousands of innocent people. And based on

00:43:27.600 what? Probable cause that there's a fighter in there, a reasonable belief, right? Based on,

00:43:34.980 remember Barack Obama's intelligence, signature strike. If they're doing jumping jacks, if they're

00:43:39.300 driving a truck, if they have an antenna sticking out of their pocket, they're a terrorist. You can

00:43:43.440 kill them. So based on what intelligence? The Israelis assure us, well, we're only trying to kill bad

00:43:48.980 guys and bomb buildings that have tunnels under them. And you just have to believe us. But I don't

00:43:54.240 know based on what intelligence they're making those calls or why we should believe them. We

00:43:59.040 don't believe our government when they say anything, but we should believe the Israeli government when

00:44:02.400 they say every time they kill a kid, it was an accident. They couldn't help themselves. It was

00:44:06.160 just collateral damage. They were being as careful as they could possibly be, but it just happened

00:44:11.500 anyway. And I think, you know, there are obvious, you know, again, with the black and white thinking

00:44:17.360 where it's what we got a precision paradox, bomb the place to the ground and kill more than 10,000

00:44:23.940 civilians or do absolutely nothing and tell Hamas, please be our best friends from now on.

00:44:30.780 Right? Like I never said that. And I don't think that that's reasonable. And I don't know anybody who

00:44:34.360 really argued. And I don't think in any of those podcasts appearances, you heard me say that Israel

00:44:38.400 should do nothing at all in response. Certainly nothing violent that would upset anyone or anything.

00:44:43.160 I never said that, but what I'm talking about is falling into the trap and back to the point about

00:44:48.260 the reaction. And maybe people don't know this. Okay. I like to quote Saul Alinsky from rules for

00:44:53.140 radicals, page 74. He says in all asymmetric political activity, this would include terrorism.

00:44:59.260 The action is in the reaction of the opposition. So this is how a small group of bandits or criminals

00:45:06.240 or a militia gets a superpower to hurt itself is by giving their politicians an excuse to exploit a

00:45:14.780 crisis to exploit and overreact. And then with that reaction comes in the counter reactions. Now,

00:45:20.200 Hezbollah and every militia in the region and all the Sunni kings, everybody has to take a stand

00:45:26.460 and all the politics are mixed up. I want to make sure we can answer the previous one too.

00:45:29.300 All right. Okay. So there are a few of them. I can I, is it fair to characterize your position

00:45:32.900 is like what Israel should do here as like mark and reprisal effectively of Hamas, right? Assassinate

00:45:38.500 leadership. Is that a fair characterization? Yeah. Yeah. Anything else that you think they

00:45:42.260 should do in addition to mark and reprisal and trying to kill top leadership?

00:45:47.900 Yeah, I think it's a lot of it would be negotiable. In fact, I read Seymour Hersh had a

00:45:52.380 piece where he's talking to high level Israeli sources, uh, intelligent sources, and they're saying

00:45:56.640 they're negotiating with the political factions of Hamas who are at odds with some of the military

00:46:01.900 factions. And they're talking about possibly holding trials for them as, um, and, and I'm

00:46:07.880 so like criminal trial, criminal, like arrest and criminally prosecute. I don't know exactly

00:46:11.740 the, how the system works in Gaza, but, and I'm not saying that I know that this is credible,

00:46:15.860 but I'm saying Israeli intelligence officials are telling Hersh that they think that there's a way

00:46:21.920 that they can negotiate with the political guys and put pressure on the military guys,

00:46:27.120 even have them held accountable as this would be part of the process for hostage negotiations and,

00:46:32.340 and the rest. So I'm not saying I'm no negotiator. Okay. But I am saying that there's a hell of a lot

00:46:38.580 of gray area between black and white here where reasonable men could be much better than Benjamin

00:46:44.080 Netanyahu and George W. Bush at this. All right. Okay. So that was, that's enough to give me something to

00:46:48.860 say like here to respond to, right? Okay. So I don't think that's nearly adequate, right? And I

00:46:52.660 don't think the Israeli government thinks it's nearly adequate, obviously self-evidently, but

00:46:56.700 also that neither does the Israeli public. And I think there's a few reasons. I think first off,

00:47:00.980 there's a, there's a big distinction between the difference between Al Qaeda in 2001, after they

00:47:05.400 had attacked us and Hamas in Gaza. Um, Hamas is a much bigger organization numbers wise. It has much

00:47:10.780 more infrastructure in place is right on the border in a, in a small, but defined area. Um, you're not

00:47:16.360 invading an entire large country, the size of Texas. You're invading a area, the size of Las

00:47:20.500 Vegas. Um, and more to the point killing, you know, putting out just doing assassinations against

00:47:27.420 Hamas, you know, Hamas leadership, I guess in Qatar or, you know, in Gaza itself. I think those are

00:47:32.420 the guys they're trying to negotiate with are the guys hiding out in Qatar. Right. Like, so I mean,

00:47:36.440 that doesn't actually solve the fundamental problem. Like even if you took out the entire top

00:47:40.180 leadership of Hamas and that's all you did, well then there's still all the tunnels. There's still

00:47:44.460 the rank and file of tens of thousands of soldiers, still all the military equipment,

00:47:47.960 still all the rockets. I mean, it really is actually kind of insane when you think about

00:47:50.780 the fact that. Well, that's just, if you assume that we just go back only to the pure status quo

00:47:54.440 after that. Right. But like why, I mean, if you aren't willing to invade them and impose a new

00:47:58.620 status quo on Hamas, meaning you're gone, then why wouldn't they go back? They, they, they're committed

00:48:04.320 to the destruction of Israel. It's in their charter and it's in their actions on October 7th.

00:48:09.060 Was in their charter. Was in their, oh. Until I think what, a couple of years ago, they changed it.

00:48:13.040 Did they? Yeah. I didn't know.

00:48:14.860 Yeah. In 2017 they did. Yeah. Okay. Well, um, I mean, maybe I think that might've been some of

00:48:19.260 the faint that ultimately, you know, what they were doing in order to deceive the Israelis.

00:48:23.140 We can actually get to this Netanyahu thing, funding Hamas. Like, I think that's an interesting

00:48:26.880 discussion. Yeah, we should talk about that. Um, but I think I want to make one other point

00:48:30.160 because you also had, you had these other points about the bombing of civilians and right. Like

00:48:34.820 the fact that even if you're not targeting civilians, you're going to end up killing a good

00:48:39.700 number of them. I think Israel was conscious of that fact. I think two weeks of

00:48:42.980 evacuation notice jet demonstrates that. And I think, I think more to the point, you know,

00:48:48.660 you see the news reports coming out now that basically all the civilians in, in North Gaza

00:48:52.500 have evacuated to the South. It was perfectly feasible. They just weren't doing it because

00:48:56.680 either one, they didn't take Israel seriously or two Hamas was holding them in as, as Israel

00:49:01.680 has accused them of preventing them from evacuating. But like that's, that's on Hamas, right?

00:49:06.920 That's a war crime from Hamas preventing civilians from evacuating from a military

00:49:09.760 area where military operations are going on. So, I mean, I think because Israel has to respond

00:49:16.080 and cannot tolerate Hamas on its border after an event like this, they're doing the best that they

00:49:22.760 can under the circumstances. Well, I, I, I, I, I'm curious two weeks notice. That's not just a

00:49:28.640 civilians. That's two Hamas. Yes, correct. I mean, that's very generous that they aren't obligated to

00:49:32.960 do that. So right now, you know, they dropped more bombs on Gaza in five weeks than America

00:49:39.960 dropped on Afghanistan at the highest year of the war there in 2019, which is amazing that Trump

00:49:46.080 bombed Afghanistan in 2019 more than Obama did in 2010 and 2011 is incredible to me, but they dropped

00:49:52.120 more bombs on Gaza in this space of four or five weeks. You can't concede at all that some of this

00:49:57.960 is disproportionate or seemingly careless to civilian lives. But, but so I'm, what does that

00:50:03.680 mean? What does it mean? They bombed Gaza more? Well, they dropped more bombs in terms of tonnage,

00:50:08.360 but that doesn't mean anything to the intelligence, to the, to the military factors. I mean, Gaza,

00:50:13.540 look at the results. You got 12,000 dead people. Right, right. But this, this, this doesn't answer

00:50:18.400 the question of, of, of war, right? Afghanistan and Gaza are substantially different places with

00:50:23.820 different leadership, with different circumstances. And so I hear things like more people died here

00:50:28.640 than here. This is how many people died. And I'm like, we're right. I think all death is bad.

00:50:33.100 I mean, but take your analogy. Afghanistan is much bigger fighting a massive Taliban insurgency

00:50:37.480 at their height in 2019, which trying to stave off total defeat there, but due to massive air war,

00:50:44.420 which actually is my point. If Afghanistan is, is sparsely populated, then they're going to use less

00:50:50.760 bombs. Not sparsely populated, much more to Gaza. Gaza is the density. Per mile, but we're not

00:50:57.160 talking about density. We're talking about, they were bombed. Wait, in Afghanistan, they were bombing

00:51:00.820 the Helmand province and the Kandahar province, especially, and Nangohar. And they're bombing the

00:51:06.420 crap out of it. My point is the moral arguments of two completely different things doesn't mean it.

00:51:10.960 I don't understand the point other than to make it seem like one thing is bad based on a number

00:51:15.240 argument, which doesn't get to the core of the differences. The point is we're talking about the

00:51:20.140 amount of munitions dropped on a vaster battlefield over a much larger period of time against a much

00:51:27.020 larger enemy and take that same number of munitions being dropped on a smaller number of people in a

00:51:32.800 much shorter period of time in a much smaller area. How many people died in Afghanistan due to the

00:51:37.920 bombings over the... Nobody really knows. Hundreds of thousands over the 20 years. Nobody really knows.

00:51:42.900 So Israel's bombed Gaza more, but it's substantially less in terms of casualties. Correct. That's actually a

00:51:47.480 number that's come out. It's something like the ratio of building destruction to casualty. There's

00:51:53.240 a lot of buildings in Gaza that have been destroyed. Gaza is going to be in ruins after this. There's

00:51:55.960 just no gutting around that. But the ratio of casualties to building destruction is actually

00:52:00.200 a lot lower than in other wars. And I think a big part of it is because Israel gave them a huge amount

00:52:04.900 of time to evacuate. A huge amount, unheard of, in modern wars. America didn't do that,

00:52:09.900 right? We didn't do that in Iraq. We didn't do that. We certainly didn't do that ISIS.

00:52:13.200 Obama killed civilians. And just to throw this in there, made the argument that military aged males

00:52:20.240 were enemy combatants, even if they're just carrying buckets of water. Also, I think one

00:52:23.920 other point is that Hamas did something unique that we haven't seen in the history of modern warfare,

00:52:28.680 which is building an enormous castle underneath a city, right? That's a novel phenomena. And it

00:52:34.560 poses challenges to how are you going to deal with it as a military when you have an affirmative

00:52:38.480 obligation to your own citizens to destroy this organization? And they're all hiding out under,

00:52:43.740 you know, they built a castle underneath the city. Well, first, you got to get the people out of the

00:52:46.120 city because it's a war zone. All right. I want to go back to what you said about Iran and about how,

00:52:51.080 boy, and again, this is some black and white stuff. I sure hope I didn't imply, although I guess I could

00:52:56.400 understand why people might have heard it this way, that, oh, everything over there would just be

00:52:59.980 great for America if it wasn't for Israel. That's not the case. I mean, we've had nothing but

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00:54:03.720 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:54:07.680 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients

00:54:13.200 that we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs.

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00:54:26.640 really big on care. Did I mention that we care?

00:54:32.380 And Biden's and McCain's in charge of this country for 30 years and and everything that

00:54:37.520 they touch turns to fire. And so I'm not saying that everything would be fine. But for example,

00:54:43.240 Alexander Haig, Ronald Reagan's secretary of state, Henry Kissinger's right hand man,

00:54:47.580 he wanted to build an oil pipeline across Iran from Azerbaijan in the 1990s. Israel said, no,

00:54:54.440 you can't do that. Dick Cheney, the head of Halliburton in the 1990s, committed the high sin

00:55:00.220 of going overseas and complaining about Bill Clinton's sanctions against Iran and saying, look,

00:55:06.300 these people are Shiites too. And God didn't see foot, see fit to put all the oil of the world

00:55:11.060 under wonderful Western democracies. And so we have to do business with these people.

00:55:15.400 The old Ayatollah is dead. The new Ayatollah is in there. President Rafsanjani and Khatami and

00:55:21.520 these guys, yeah, they're bad guys, but they're not any worse than the Saudis who we deal with

00:55:25.820 deal with across the Gulf. Of course, we could normalize relations with Iran. As I said, Israel

00:55:31.580 stayed friends with Iran after the revolution until they turned on him in 1993. Iran didn't start

00:55:37.120 backing Hamas until two years after that. And people can read all about that in Treacherous

00:55:41.820 Alliance by Trita Parsi, which is a fantastic book that covers that. So no, it doesn't mean

00:55:46.420 everything would be perfect, but could America get along with Iran or just, oh no, they all hate us

00:55:52.240 because of the coup of 53 and they'll never get over that. I don't think that's right. I think it's

00:55:56.240 the Americans who will never get over the revolution of 79 when they overthrew the government that we had

00:56:01.480 no right to foist on them in the first place. And Jimmy Carter was asked about it. He goes, oh,

00:56:06.200 1953, that's ancient history. It was just 25 years ago. What if they had overthrown Bill Clinton

00:56:12.860 and installed the Shiite dictator over America? We'd be used to it by now or over it by now.

00:56:19.180 It's completely crazy. But anyway, they've tried to come in from the cold over and over again,

00:56:24.460 and we could bring them into the cold. America's a superpower. All this stuff is negotiable. If

00:56:28.800 Alexander Haig and Dick Cheney want to do business with Iran, then that means it's at least within the

00:56:34.280 realm of possibility. But I wanted to get back to something than that. And I know I did bring up a

00:56:39.020 whole lot of stuff in my opening statement there about the terror war. But I wonder if you could

00:56:43.300 address this major conflict between the fact that America's enemies are these Wahhabi, Salafi,

00:56:51.900 Bin Ladenites, or at least led Bin Ladenites, the shock troops off and on of our Saudi allies,

00:56:59.720 but that Israel's enemies in the region are the Shiites. But it wasn't Hezbollah that knocked our

00:57:06.380 towers down. It wasn't Iran that knocked our towers down. And so they have us, for example,

00:57:13.040 under, as I said, in Syria, under heavy pressure from the Israel lobby in the United States,

00:57:19.000 backing Al-Qaeda headchopper suicide bombers because they hate the Shiites more. But why should

00:57:25.580 Americans hate the Shiites more? You know, David Stockman said, hell, we should ally with Iran and

00:57:30.300 Russia to kill Al-Qaeda and ISIS. They're the bad guys here. And what do they do? They spent 10 years

00:57:36.400 telling us that we were crazy because those Al-Qaeda terrorists are moderate rebels who are just trying

00:57:41.400 to save the people of Syria from the evil Shiites. And you got to admit that there's a division in

00:57:47.000 America, Israeli policy on that, right? There's a reason I didn't agree to a debate about American

00:57:51.580 policy in Syria. But that wasn't Israeli. I mean, Israel might have wanted it, but I think it's

00:57:58.760 overstating the case to say that it's at Israel's behest, right? Like we are an independent nation

00:58:03.720 and Obama had his own purposes. Our foreign policy establishment did those things in Syria for its own

00:58:09.640 reasons, even if Israel liking it too was maybe a cherry on top. Yeah, well, Scott, let me ask you.

00:58:15.420 I think it was more than a cherry on top. I think if you remember in 2013, after the first fake

00:58:20.400 sarin attack in Gouda and Barack Obama and John McCain said, come on, everybody, let's go to war.

00:58:25.940 And he said, hey, I need help from civil society. Come on, everybody. Let's help do this.

00:58:30.720 Only AIPAC and the Center for Security Policy and these most pro-Israel organizations in DC came out

00:58:37.240 and said, yeah, let's go to war in Syria. And remember, in fact, I bet you cover this at the time.

00:58:41.240 What did the army say and the Marines? They held up signs and said, I didn't join the army to go

00:58:45.400 fight for al-Qaeda in Syria. But let me ask you, I think there's a difference here.

00:58:50.020 Will, you're suggesting the United States is more directing Israel's actions or you're saying

00:58:53.940 Israel's lobby is directing US actions? I wouldn't say the United States is directing Israel's actions.

00:58:58.780 I mean, there's an interplay, right? We have influence over the Israeli government.

00:59:03.260 They have some influence over our government. I think a lot of the times the flea wags the dog

00:59:07.720 in a way that should not be. But it definitely goes both directions, right? Like our state

00:59:12.640 department and Anthony Blinken is not there even as well as much as it's saying, oh, Israel,

00:59:16.940 you can do what you want. They're not there to just give carte blanche to Israel. They've been

00:59:20.740 pushing for a lot of different things with the Israeli government. Well, and by the way,

00:59:24.360 you know, the pro-Israel hawks in America, the neoconservatives in America oftentimes are worse

00:59:30.120 than the Likud government in Israel. And they were worse than Ariel Sharon when he was in power on,

00:59:35.900 you know, he would try to compromise on some things and they would take him to task.

00:59:39.400 And, you know, Ehud Olmert, who was between Sharon and Netanyahu, who is not a great prime

00:59:44.820 minister, but not a lunatic. He was negotiating with Syria in 2006 and Bush sent Condoleezza Rice

00:59:52.500 to stop it when they could have negotiated. So America oftentimes is a negative influence

00:59:58.520 on Israel when they could be making progress. We're stopping them from doing so.

01:00:02.120 I definitely want to get into Hamas's funding because you brought that up a little bit.

01:00:05.940 But the first thing I just want to ask more lightly before we jump into that,

01:00:09.660 I know you mentioned, Will asked you about marking reprisal to go and take out the Hamas leaders.

01:00:15.260 Following October 7th, do you have a general idea of like, I'm not calling, I don't want to imply

01:00:21.620 you're a military leader who would have these ideas, but what do you think Israel's actions

01:00:24.720 should have been immediately following October 7th?

01:00:26.620 Okay. Well, so the first thing is you went about the right to defend themselves.

01:00:30.120 Clearly they had the right to kill any Hamas guy outside that gate and chase them back inside

01:00:35.540 at that point. That is quite literally defending themselves, right? But I have a friend, an Israeli

01:00:41.100 friend who is a military veteran of the 2006 war, who said to me right after this, he goes,

01:00:46.960 look, they're surrounded. Okay. This is Waco now. And no, David Koresh never went to town and killed

01:00:53.220 innocent people. And he never was going to. But anyway, the point is they are surrounded.

01:00:58.240 This is not a sovereign nation state next door. This is essentially a prison uprising or a ghetto.

01:01:06.900 And so time is on Israel's side. There's no, you're angry. You want to go in there and do

01:01:14.100 something horrible. And even if there's collateral damage and all of that, but to be perfectly clear

01:01:20.180 about this, for people who don't know about this story, the only reason Hamas was able to break out

01:01:24.480 on 8-7 was because the IDF and their commander in chief were derelict in their duty. Netanyahu had

01:01:30.720 called hundreds of, I think more than a thousand soldiers away from Gaza and sent them to the West

01:01:36.280 Bank. They're overly reliant on all this high tech sensors and, and automatic machine guns and all of

01:01:42.620 these things. The first thing Hamas did was take out a few cell phone towers and completely crippled

01:01:47.280 the Israeli response. So they were derelict in their duty. But then what happened? They called

01:01:53.360 up 300,000 reserves and every drone in the fleet, right? So no one's getting out of there now.

01:02:00.960 So it's just like at Waco, Texas, 30 years ago. What's the hurry here that we have to go in and

01:02:07.400 kill these people? What would you do though? What would you have Israel do? That's the core question.

01:02:10.900 Like, what would you have Israel do? I think the, they should do everything that they can

01:02:18.880 to try to negotiate with the political factions of Hamas to see what can be done to isolate the

01:02:25.860 military leaders. Now, if that's just going to lead to a coup and the Al-Qasim brigades take over the

01:02:31.060 whole thing and the political people are powerless and there's no choice, then I guess you have to use

01:02:36.580 violent action. But look, they use, there's video of this the other day I saw. They use one of these

01:02:41.440 Hellfire missiles with no warhead on it. It shoots swords out and kills people. That's how, I think that's

01:02:48.860 how they killed Sheikh Yassin in 2004, which we're about to talk about the history of Sheikh Yassin here,

01:02:53.280 I hope, and all of that. And they killed, what, him and one other person in the car with him.

01:02:58.860 So, you know, this is like, you could say that you get some really evil chess pieces, but Israel owns

01:03:04.680 the entire board here. IDF and Shin Bet and Mossad have essentially God-like omniscient power of life

01:03:12.720 and death over the people in that strip. And they can reach out and touch these guys one at a time.

01:03:17.560 The deal here is the doctrine became, we are going to completely root out and completely annihilate

01:03:25.460 the existence of Hamas now. And so now anything standing between this and that goal is permissible.

01:03:32.940 And I think that, you know, probably we're going to see at the end that they actually don't go that

01:03:38.320 far, but, and that this, a lot of this was for nothing. Are you saying that immediately following

01:03:42.660 October 7th, after Israel secures its, you know, as you mentioned, takes out any Hamas guy attacking

01:03:48.660 them, they secure that they should have not had any military strikes in Gaza. Well, if they had,

01:03:53.980 if they had cleared military targets with no collateral damage and they could do some reprisals,

01:03:58.260 then sure. So you said to negotiate. So, so, so I'm just trying to clarify, October 7th happens,

01:04:04.320 Israel pushes back the Hamas fighters, kills many of them, stops the fighting, secures,

01:04:08.640 it secures the, the, the, the border, whatever you want to call it. At that point, you think

01:04:12.440 Israel should begin negotiations and not military strikes, or are you saying?

01:04:16.820 Well, it depends if you have, you know, entire, uh, Hamas divisions separate from innocent civilians

01:04:22.660 that are easy to drop a hellfire on. What the hell do I care? You know, I don't know. Um,

01:04:28.480 I'm not a total pacifist here, but essentially what I'm doing is I'm preaching the minarchist

01:04:33.280 solution. What you want to do is the, the least amount of damage, especially to these innocent

01:04:38.780 civilians, as you possibly can and try to figure out a better way forward. Go ahead.

01:04:43.580 Yeah. I just think, I mean, so first off, I think that's, so I think that's the ethically

01:04:48.980 incorrect response for the perspective of Israel's government. And I also think it, I mean,

01:04:52.660 I could say it's politically impossible, but I think you'd probably agree with me

01:04:55.580 that that response by an Israeli government would be literally politically impossible.

01:04:59.100 The government that tried it would be tossed out instant elections, new government that is

01:05:03.160 willing to go to war. I'm not so sure about that. I mean, again, like there are,

01:05:06.160 I think you're very much underestimating the attitude of the Israeli public here.

01:05:10.080 Possibly, but I mean, there are Israeli intelligence professionals who are talking this way

01:05:13.520 to the papers too. So if you have the right technocrats in the Israeli national security

01:05:18.800 state explaining why they think this is wise, then you could do X, Y, or Z policy, I believe.

01:05:26.180 Sure. But I also, I mean, so I, I think that's a less interesting debate for us to have than

01:05:31.160 the, like the ethical one, right? Is it actually right for Israel to go ahead and invade and take

01:05:35.400 out Hamas? Because that's the central question. I think it is. I mean, I'm, I'm a nationalist.

01:05:40.260 I think America, the American government has its first obligation to protect American citizens.

01:05:44.540 And I think the Israeli government's first obligation is to protect Israeli citizens.

01:05:48.360 Well, I think Scott agrees, right? Scott said, hellfire the Hamas guys, if you can get them.

01:05:51.460 But look, I also said, well, this is on the last show that Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza

01:05:57.100 strip in 1967. They just won't give these people equal rights. So they live in this ghetto because

01:06:03.480 they're born with the wrong religion. And so they're stuck there. And so they don't have a state of their

01:06:09.280 own to protect them. You're a nationalist, but you're not a Palestinian nationalist.

01:06:13.560 No, certainly not. I don't think that Israel should give them a state. I'm not, we can talk

01:06:17.200 about the two state solution. That's a, that's an interesting separate question.

01:06:19.920 So they, they don't get equal rights within the Israeli state that rules them as Netanyahu said,

01:06:24.640 and I have the exact quotes here as Netanyahu said, it will always be one state from the river

01:06:29.180 Jordan to the Mediterranean sea just will not be free. It'll only be free for Jews. And the

01:06:34.660 Palestinians are just going to have to learn to live with it. That's the, that's the Israeli

01:06:39.980 doctrine. Are there, are there Muslims who live in Israel who? Yes. 20% population of, uh, Israel is,

01:06:47.400 uh, Palestinian Muslim and Christian, but it's the, are they, are they free with equal rights

01:06:53.340 and everything? They have essentially second classes and shit. They're not allowed to intermarry.

01:06:57.700 They're not allowed to, uh, live wherever they want. They have some representation in the

01:07:01.660 Knesset. But up until the last, uh, regime before Netanyahu, the tradition had been for decades that

01:07:08.040 no government will form with the Arabs. They would rather lose and let the other guys form a government

01:07:13.980 than have Arabs in the ruling coalition. And they only broke that for the very first time,

01:07:18.620 the last time. So they've never had the government, uh, minister positions except, uh, once in the last

01:07:23.080 few years here, but then, so, and this is an important point, Tim, because you know, the pro-Israel

01:07:27.660 side always says, well, but look how well we treat the Palestinian citizens of Israel.

01:07:31.800 They get along fine and everything's just fine. Well, fine. So why don't you do that for all the

01:07:35.580 rest of them too? Instead, you're supposed to believe that if it's free from the river to the

01:07:40.020 sea, then no, that definitely 100% means that every Arab is going to kill every Jew until they're all

01:07:45.080 dead. But that's just a fact, not in evidence. Uh, I mean, I can, we can pull up the poll that just

01:07:49.440 came out. That was just, just done of Gaza and the West bank, but it showed that roughly 75% both in

01:07:55.440 Gaza and the West bank supported the 10 seven massacre. Agree that Hamas's actions were good.

01:07:59.900 Uh, if I mean, 75%. Oh, I don't, I don't know that that's right. I just read the win up poll,

01:08:06.260 uh, again, the Washington Institute for near East policy against interest. And they said that the

01:08:10.340 majority of people of Gaza reject Hamas and are stuck with Hamas and don't even like them at all.

01:08:15.880 I don't know. I mean, this, this poll looked fine to me and it, I mean, it, it tracks historically

01:08:20.480 like the West, I mean, there's a lot of hatred there. And you know what true that also is,

01:08:24.940 as I know you understand that is the rally around the flag effect when they're in the

01:08:28.660 middle of being bombed. It's the same as Americans giving George W. Bush and 90% approval rating when

01:08:33.560 he's torturing people to death and bombing innocent countries, but when you're being attacked,

01:08:37.920 they're being very nationalistic and rallying around their leader. But I bet you, if you,

01:08:42.120 if a pollster said, come on, you don't really think it was okay to kill those people at the

01:08:45.960 kibbutz. I bet you they'd answer affirmatively to that too.

01:08:48.940 Maybe, but can I, can I, I just want to actually, sorry, uh, lost my train of thought for a second.

01:08:54.180 Um, you could understand that the Israeli government might be willing to grant a state.

01:08:58.380 And you know what the core thing, when you're talking about granting a state is we talk about

01:09:01.160 a state and it's just this hypothetical thing. It means granting us the right to a sovereign

01:09:04.440 military to people who think the 10 seven miss massacre was a good idea though, because the

01:09:09.300 whole idea of the Palestinian state from 1979, all the way through was a state minus where they

01:09:14.640 would not have their own standing military force.

01:09:17.260 Then that's effectively what Gaza, no, it's not. No, come on, man. It's not, it's, it is. I mean,

01:09:23.140 other than Gaza, you know, consistently sending rockets. And so Israel having to put some

01:09:27.460 structures in place to defend themselves from consistent attack, but I mean, Israel evacuated

01:09:31.320 Gaza, right? Like they had people on the border.

01:09:33.520 I'm glad you brought that up. So let's talk about this in, in, uh, 2005, Ariel Sharon pulled,

01:09:39.160 uh, all the last of the Jewish settlers out of the Gaza strip and called it the unilateral

01:09:44.760 disengagement and his senior advisor, Dove Weissglass was being criticized. Um, and Sharon

01:09:51.480 was being criticized for giving away the whole store to the terrorists. And I don't know if

01:09:55.900 you're familiar with this quote, this is, everyone can look this up. It's Dove Weissglass with no E,

01:10:01.440 just D O V Weissglass. And this is what he told Haaretz. He said, quote, the significance of the

01:10:06.700 disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process. And when you freeze that process, you prevent

01:10:12.700 the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion of the refugees, the borders

01:10:18.020 and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state with all that it

01:10:23.680 entails has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with a U S presidential

01:10:29.960 blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde.

01:10:37.360 It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary. So there will not be a political

01:10:44.200 process with the Palestinians. The disengagement plan makes it possible for Israel to park conveniently

01:10:50.740 in an interim situation that distances us as far as possible from political pressure. It legitimizes

01:10:59.320 our contention that there is no negotiating with the Palestinians. We educated the world to understand

01:11:06.560 there is no one to talk to. And we received a no one to talk to certificate. And that certificate

01:11:13.280 says, one, there's no one to talk to. Two, as long as there is no one to talk to, the geographic

01:11:18.680 status quo remains intact. And three, the certificate will be revoked only when Palestine becomes Finland.

01:11:26.080 See you then. And shalom.

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01:12:27.040 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops. So on behalf of Desjardins

01:12:32.780 Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

01:12:38.600 We care about you. We care about you.

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01:12:52.380 Did I mention that we care?

01:12:56.260 In other words, we get to keep gobbling up the West Bank because we don't have to deal with

01:13:03.300 the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They're divided and conquered.

01:13:07.380 So that's entirely a separate question from the one I was talking about. Like we were,

01:13:11.060 you were asking.

01:13:11.600 You were saying when they withdrew, they created essentially a state for the people of Gaza.

01:13:16.920 The state minus that you're talking about, right? Like they had self-government. There

01:13:19.200 was no Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza.

01:13:21.000 No, but they're completely surrounded.

01:13:22.140 So it is the state minus that you described. Like if you don't think they should get us out of

01:13:25.120 military.

01:13:25.420 That's not true. That's like saying that, that, you know, an Indian reservation is a nation and

01:13:30.180 has full independence, but it's not true. They don't have a port. They don't have an airport.

01:13:34.140 They're not, they don't control their own fishing rights. They're not allowed to fish more than six

01:13:38.180 miles off their own coast. They're not allowed international trade. They're under total siege

01:13:43.140 from the outside in Egypt. Egypt controls the Southern border in cooperation with the United

01:13:48.000 States travel and Gazans fly out of Cairo. Like it's the idea that this is a prison is wildly

01:13:52.880 overstated. It's just not right. It's the only prison in the world where there are no prison

01:13:56.140 guards inside the prison.

01:13:57.560 I have just a general question. I'm curious about, uh, in this regard too, there are a lot of people who

01:14:02.500 are in the U S who are Palestinian or related to Palestinians or descended from Palestinians.

01:14:06.620 I just don't know the process by which you're born in Gaza. And then you find yourself living

01:14:10.260 in the United States as a citizen is, do they just apply to leave? And then I believe that

01:14:14.640 there's like a limited amount of permits per year. And then the question is whether you're

01:14:18.460 allowed back again. Cause the more, when, when Palestinians leave, the Israelis try to keep

01:14:22.840 them from coming back.

01:14:23.920 There are, there are people that, uh, you know, I've met who are Palestinian in a born in the

01:14:28.560 area. Now they live in America and they're citizens. I mean, that's, that's, that's a,

01:14:31.660 that, that exists, right? I mean,

01:14:32.860 Yeah. I mean, I just don't, I just don't know if it's not a prison. Like that's like,

01:14:36.380 that's a wild overstatement of the case. Like, yes, there is a wall and there's very,

01:14:41.640 very limited migration and controlled migration and controlled entry and exit from Gaza into Israel.

01:14:47.600 But that's not the only border. There's Egypt as well. There's a reason for that. IE the consistent

01:14:52.240 and almost, you know, nonstop rocket fire coming. I mean, think about this. Israel literally

01:14:57.820 invented a state of the art missile defense system in order to deal with the fact that

01:15:02.560 they had rockets coming from 50 miles away on a regular basis. And it's just a normal

01:15:06.800 thing in Israel for everybody to get into bomb shelters on a regular basis.

01:15:09.280 I had a, a, a friend in Israel, an Israeli friend, and I think it was protective. It was

01:15:14.780 around 2014. Was this, this was one of the first times the rockets actually reached Tel

01:15:18.260 Aviv. I don't know. I don't know a lot about it. All I know is I get a frantic message from

01:15:22.140 someone saying a rocket exploded over the house and they didn't think it was possible for

01:15:25.000 something like this to happen. Now there was just sheer panic. Remember the, uh, I guess

01:15:29.740 2008 war and John Stewart's interviewing, uh, or he's playing a clip on the daily show

01:15:36.640 from, I guess, CNN. And the guy's like, yeah, reporting live from Tel Aviv. And he's wearing

01:15:40.620 a pink polo t-shirt and he's like, yeah, rocket fire and all the danger. And they show the clip

01:15:46.260 from the guy in Gaza and he's wearing a helmet, a bulletproof vest. There's literally explosions

01:15:50.200 going off all, all around him. Like, you know, my, my Israeli friend sent me a picture

01:15:54.940 of, look, a rocket hit an apartment and it came right in the window and blew up a kitchen.

01:15:58.960 Like if a lady had been standing in that kitchen, she'd have been killed. But we're talking about

01:16:02.860 like, that's it. It would have, it would have messed up this room and maybe killed one or

01:16:07.000 two people in it. It's the, I don't, the relative strength of these explosives is,

01:16:12.560 let's address that. Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me want to go first.

01:16:15.400 Well, I mean, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure I understand the, the, the moral argument. I feel

01:16:20.600 like this is, this is a common, uh, among, I'm not trying to use this as a dig, uh, the left

01:16:25.940 argument of a press versus oppressor that morality is, uh, in some way morality is in, in large,

01:16:34.700 or at least a component of morality is the strength of, of one side versus the other.

01:16:39.360 I, I'm not sure I agree with that, right? Just because one person has more power.

01:16:43.060 Well, no, I don't think, well, if anybody ever said that is just who has more power,

01:16:47.640 but the question is who has the ability to make decisions to change the situation? It's just like,

01:16:52.840 I like to bring up the Attica prison uprising in, uh, what, 1974, whenever that was, Governor

01:16:59.380 Rockefeller sent the national guard in there to just massacre everybody, but he just didn't

01:17:04.620 have to do that, right? Like, yes, there are minimum security prisoners who were caught up

01:17:09.080 in this thing and there are very bad felons who've taken over the prison, but the whole

01:17:12.620 place is surrounded. Send in Sam Jackson to negotiate, man. And instead what they do, they

01:17:18.720 send in the national guard who killed innocent people, including guards, prison guards were

01:17:22.780 killed when they sent in the overwhelming force because you got to shore up your state and you

01:17:28.300 can't, you know, Governor Rockefeller had to prove who's boss there when it just isn't

01:17:33.000 necessary to go that far. And no, I'm not saying that Hamas somehow is, uh, what they're more

01:17:40.100 moral because their rockets are weaker. I'd never said that. And that wasn't even the implication

01:17:44.520 of what I'm saying. I'm just talking about their relative ability to inflict harm on the people of

01:17:51.140 Israel. It's almost negligible. And let's go back because you did bring this up and let's go back and

01:17:56.880 let's talk about where Hamas even comes from. Hamas was a charity that took care of education

01:18:03.340 and food for poor people. And then, and it was a breakup of the Muslim brotherhood.

01:18:07.880 Okay. One point at a time. Right. Right. Okay. So we'll, we'll want it to address the

01:18:12.060 proportionality. Right. So, um, again, I mean, I think actually Tim, you made this point pretty

01:18:16.800 well, right? Like the strength, the weakness does not equate to morality. Right. I think you agree

01:18:21.000 with that. Sure. Right. Like, so I must, despite being substantially weaker is engaged in immoral

01:18:25.720 action. I think the second point is that even if like currently unmolested, Hamas doesn't have the

01:18:31.560 ability to just kill everybody. You know, they lack the means to do what they would want to do

01:18:35.320 in Israel, which is actually genocide, by the way. Like, I don't know if you agree with me that

01:18:38.320 Hamas's goals in Israel are genocidal. Do you agree with that? Yes. No. Well, they had said in

01:18:45.240 the past, look, Sheik Yassin in January of 2004, it's in the London independent said, I'm ready. I'm

01:18:50.600 old and I'm tired of this. And I'm ready to sign on the dotted line for a 67, uh, two state solution

01:18:56.060 within 67 borders. And two months later, the Israelis killed him. Right. That's like, which is the

01:19:01.380 same thing they did in Lebanon when Arafat, Arafat said he wanted to negotiate. So they

01:19:05.500 invaded Lebanon. You're trying to, so trying to dodge, get out of the pocket. Well, I'm

01:19:08.740 not, no, I'm saying, I'm saying Hamas, I'm saying Hamas when their leader said he wanted

01:19:13.840 to deal, they murdered the guy. Okay. So if you're asking me about like right now, the

01:19:18.500 current leadership of Hamas, are they very bad guys who should be killed rather than dealt

01:19:24.200 with? Do you think their goal is a genocide in Israel? Well, I don't, I don't think that's

01:19:27.940 a fair characterization because I think it is right. I wouldn't necessarily say it's

01:19:32.340 an unfair one. I don't, they have not said that I have heard recently that their goal

01:19:37.260 is to destroy the entire state of Israel. I do know, and they may have, right. They

01:19:41.140 may have, but I do know that I have seen Hamas leaders for years say they're willing

01:19:46.640 to accept a two state solution within 67 borders and recognize Israel as part of that final

01:19:53.400 SAS solution. I saw one of them say it on the Charlie Rose show years ago, John McCain,

01:19:57.920 said that that was true. And that maybe we should negotiate with them on that basis in

01:20:01.920 the past. So I'm not saying that the guys who are currently in charge, cause I don't

01:20:05.300 know the names of all the guys currently in charge over there, but I do not think that

01:20:09.220 it is just a fact. In fact, Al Qaeda has for years denounced Hamas as a bunch of progressives

01:20:15.480 and liberals and wimps and Westerners for participating in democracy at all for negotiating with the West

01:20:21.160 at all. So they're not exactly the same as Al Qaeda.

01:20:24.920 I think post 10, seven, that should, I think it's pretty straightforward.

01:20:28.320 Post 10, seven, post 10, seven, we're in a very difficult situation, but what's the alternative?

01:20:34.980 You know, you're going to drive every fighting age male out of Gaza, and then you're going to

01:20:39.040 call that peace?

01:20:40.260 I mean, you're going to destroy and just like Hamas and basically prevent the organization

01:20:44.520 from coming back into power. And I mean, this isn't Iraq. It's not the size of, you know,

01:20:48.820 this isn't the size of Texas. This is a place the size of Las Vegas, a little bigger than

01:20:54.160 Tallahassee where I live. Like, I think Israel has, is very much within its capability to achieve the

01:20:59.800 objective it has set out, which is the destruction of Hamas.

01:21:02.400 And then what, the reoccupation of the Gaza Strip permanently?

01:21:06.020 I mean,

01:21:06.420 Under military occupation?

01:21:07.440 You know, in the medium term. Yeah. It has to be. I mean, what's the, what's the alternative

01:21:11.520 if your goal is to prevent this from happening again so that people can live in Southern Israel

01:21:14.780 again?

01:21:15.440 Do you have any kind of idea for a solution to this one state, two state by national state,

01:21:19.480 or just they should all have to go live in the Sinai Peninsula or what?

01:21:22.660 I think it's, uh, someone else takes either, either Israel takes sovereign responsibility over

01:21:26.300 the Gaza Strip or somebody else does. Egypt, Jordan can take some sovereign responsibility over

01:21:29.940 the West Bank. But I think there's a reason that the two state solution has been,

01:21:35.560 I find it, you know, you're so critical of Clinton and Indyke and all these other people

01:21:40.640 who like, who, for whom the two state solution was this beacon, this lodestar. And yet you're

01:21:45.980 like, you, you propose the very, very same solution that is like the ultimate neoliberal

01:21:51.140 solution to, to Palestine. I think, I think the entire point of the two state solution, the

01:21:55.540 two state solution is a con and the drive toward it is actually a continuous generator of

01:22:00.380 war. We don't have people, you know, the sort of irredentism and revanchism in places

01:22:04.840 like Poland and Germany and Algeria and you name it. Um, and I think, I think the correct

01:22:10.660 answer here is, you know, not a two state solution. I certainly don't think that the

01:22:15.400 Palestinian, a Palestinian state that would ultimately probably be controlled by Hamas

01:22:18.620 is a good idea at all. Um, I don't think, I think the Israelis think it's just completely

01:22:22.960 out of the question now. I think even if you gotten rid of Netanyahu, they'd think it's

01:22:25.900 completely out of the question.

01:22:27.000 Well, I don't think anybody's talking about a two state solution with Hamas in charge

01:22:32.400 of the thing. I've never heard anyone propose anything like that at all.

01:22:35.260 Yeah, but the problem is that's the likely end result, right? Like the PA doesn't have

01:22:38.800 any real constituency. So the likely end result of what would happen in, in, you know, Gaza

01:22:44.000 and likely the West bank in a world where there wasn't the rest of the world holding it desperately

01:22:48.360 together, uh, would be a, would it be Hamas taking over? And it's a risk that I don't think

01:22:54.460 the Israelis can really take, like the bottom line security control.

01:22:57.720 The bottom line will about the two state solution is that it was always an illusion. It was

01:23:01.720 a lie. The peace process that said, we're going to eventually give you a state was a scam because

01:23:07.760 what the Israeli right wants, and I don't mean every Israeli citizen, I mean the right wing

01:23:13.140 nationalist factions in charge, they want the West bank. They call it Judea and Samaria.

01:23:18.960 And they said that the Bible says that they can have it. And if millions of Palestinians live

01:23:23.540 on it, that's just tough. And they don't want a two state solution. If Bill Clinton wants a two

01:23:29.320 state solution, well then we'll tell him that sure, Bill will work on a two state solution. And I

01:23:35.000 actually have the whole thing here. I'm sure you've seen the secret recording of the candid

01:23:38.740 camera recording of Netanyahu talking about how he took advantage of Bill Clinton.

01:23:41.180 I really don't care that Netanyahu or, and the entire Israeli government lied to Bill Clinton over

01:23:46.400 some nonsense. I don't care about Bill Clinton either. The point is it's like this. Okay. In

01:23:54.020 the 1960s, when the national government said to the South, Jim Crow is over. You guys are going to

01:24:00.380 desegregate. If Mississippi had said, actually, no, we are not going to desegregate and give blacks

01:24:07.260 the equal rights in Mississippi, but I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll give them Northern Mississippi.

01:24:13.440 will be an independent black state. And then they can guarantee their own rights. And then

01:24:19.480 they never did that. And then for 30 years and 40 years, they had a peace process all about turning

01:24:25.480 over Northern Mississippi to the black someday. Meanwhile, they're colonizing more and more of

01:24:30.280 it, building more and more white only farms in that territory. And they still never gave them

01:24:37.300 their equal rights. That is what the two state solution is, is it was an illusion. And this is why,

01:24:41.880 hang on one second. This is why in 2020, when Netanyahu almost officially declared annexation,

01:24:49.800 but back down, but he did say explicitly, there will always be one government that controls all

01:24:57.100 the land from the West bank. I mean, pardon me from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea.

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01:26:01.400 iGaming Ontario. When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:26:08.200 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients

01:26:13.380 that we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird,

01:26:21.140 I don't remember saying that part. Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get insurance

01:26:26.500 that's really big on care. Did I mention that we care? Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch,

01:26:36.340 all three put out reports saying this is officially apartheid now, because as long as we're not

01:26:42.360 pretending... I need to be able to respond at some point. Okay, but I mean, I'm just saying as long

01:26:47.280 as we're not pretending that we're giving up a Palestinian state as a two-state solution anymore,

01:26:51.980 then it is apartheid. We're half the country controls the other half. We'll go way back to

01:26:56.680 the question of Hamas's intention, and we're talking about the two-state solution. This is from

01:27:01.400 the Hamas Charter Wikipedia, from its charter in 1988. The charter states that...

01:27:05.580 Why don't you read the 2017 one?

01:27:07.960 Which I will. It's all in here. In 1988, the charter states that our struggle against the Jews is very

01:27:13.260 great and very serious and calls for the eventual creation of Islamic State in Palestine in place of

01:27:17.160 Israel, and the Palestinian territories, and the obliteration and dissolution of Israel.

01:27:21.600 The actual article, which is known as Article 7, summarized on Wikipedia, talks about how

01:27:26.660 they want to eradicate the Jews. The final quote of the actual article says,

01:27:31.440 the day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, killing the Jews,

01:27:35.060 when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say,

01:27:38.360 O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Garkad tree...

01:27:43.560 Tim, everybody's heard this a hundred times. What's the point? Why don't you read the

01:27:46.660 Likud Party Charter, where it says that all the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea

01:27:52.820 will always belong to Israel, and they're coming for Lebanon and Jordan too.

01:27:56.220 I'm not saying it doesn't. That's not the point.

01:27:56.940 So it's not the point. How come one party platform counts, but the other party platform doesn't?

01:28:01.420 The point is, a question was asked, did Hamas intend to kill the Jews? And you said,

01:28:05.320 I don't know. Maybe they did. I'm reading you. They did.

01:28:08.360 Now, pick your point about Israel.

01:28:09.720 No, the question was present tense. And then I talked about more recent past where they had said

01:28:16.340 that they dropped all that. Forget the party platform. We were willing to sign within the 67

01:28:21.660 borders.

01:28:22.440 Will made the point that Hamas's charter says they want to eradicate Israel and the Jews. I said it

01:28:26.440 was changed in 2017. You said, maybe they said that I'm not sure. I pulled it up to show you they did.

01:28:31.140 The charter in 2017 changed this, and that is a fair point to be made.

01:28:35.320 Take for it what you will. I think we're confused here. I wasn't disputing that their

01:28:41.140 previous charter said horrible things in it. I guess I would dispute that party platforms really

01:28:45.620 mean anything. On that very, very point, 10-7 demonstrates that whatever commitment the top

01:28:52.500 level political guys made in that charter was a fig leaf. They're willing to go into Israel and

01:28:58.020 butcher and maim and rape and kidnap Israelis. But yeah, but you're leaving out, you're truncating

01:29:02.360 all the antecedents such as the Netanyahu doctrine, which was we're no longer pretending

01:29:07.340 there's going to be an independent state. As he said in his UN speech just two weeks before

01:29:11.780 the 10-7 attack, he got up there and he showed a map that had one state of Israel between the

01:29:16.760 river and the sea. No West Bank carved out there, no Palestinian anything. And he said,

01:29:21.540 this is the Netanyahu doctrine. The Arab Sunni states had always promised they would not normalize

01:29:26.740 relations with Israel until they gave up independence or citizenship for the Palestinians.

01:29:33.500 And what Jared Kushner figured out was the American taxpayer can pay the price. So we give F-16s to

01:29:40.280 Bahrain, we give F-35s to UAE, we give debt forgiveness to Sudan, and we give northern western

01:29:47.020 Sahara to Morocco for all of them to sell out the Palestinians. And Hamas, and I'm sorry, I have here

01:29:53.400 somewhere that quote, where the Hamas spokesman says, this is the greatest emergency. These Abraham

01:29:58.440 accords, we are being completely sold out and left behind here, which is what Netanyahu says in his

01:30:03.980 speech. Nobody's coming for you. Now that the Palestinians know that they've been completely

01:30:09.040 sold out, no one has their back anymore. Now they're going to have to essentially give up their

01:30:14.240 dream of having an independent state or anything like citizenship in one state. They're just going to

01:30:20.260 have to learn to how to be permanent fourth class, not even citizens under foreign military occupation

01:30:27.500 in the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem from now on. And they're just going to have to learn to

01:30:32.500 get used to it. That was his big victory speech at the UN. Then two weeks later, they broke out of

01:30:39.140 their pen and killed all these people in order to force this crisis in order to try to undermine

01:30:44.540 those accords. So you're saying that, look, they're genocidal fine. They obviously butchered

01:30:50.520 civilians. As I said in my introduction here, an extended family member of mine was abducted and

01:30:55.720 killed by Hamas in this thing when they did what they did. They're perfectly willing to butcher

01:31:00.660 civilians, obviously. But the point is to zoom out and ask what is going on here that this is even

01:31:07.880 a situation. You know, most Americans, and you know, whether you agree with my Indian reservation

01:31:12.800 analogy or not, most Americans would be under the impression that Palestine is a country.

01:31:20.040 You talk about the Israelis and the Palestinians, of course they have a country. Everybody has a

01:31:25.240 country, but they don't. Not everybody has a country.

01:31:27.780 They don't. Well, I mean, I'm just saying, listen, I'm just saying that's what most Americans think.

01:31:32.860 And if you show them a picture of Israel, it looks like the Arabs have invaded and taken this

01:31:39.040 chunk, the West Bank, out of Israel. When that's all that's left, that they haven't conquered yet.

01:31:44.920 Right? But Americans are told land for peace. The terrorists are trying to extort land out of the

01:31:51.480 Israelis' land, and they won't give them peace and stop terrorizing them unless the Israelis give

01:31:57.160 them territory. That's not the land for peace formulation at all. That's the formulation delivered

01:31:59.940 to Israel to tell them how to make peace. That's what led them giving Egypt to Sinai back. That's

01:32:06.900 the whole basis of Indyke and the Bill Clinton. The idea is not like the Palestine is trying to

01:32:13.760 blackmail themselves into a state. I mean, the argument that we're telling that the American people

01:32:18.880 are seeing that is accurate is the Palestinians want Israel gone, period, end stop, from the river

01:32:25.280 to the sea. They want them gone. And like, wait, who's they though? You're not speaking for the

01:32:30.960 Palestinian people of, of all the West Bank and Gaza. I'll send you the link to it. Well, I did pull

01:32:36.500 it up. Uh, however, it's from I-24 and it's, uh, uh, Berzat University. I believe it'll be

01:32:42.680 immediately dismissed by a pro-Palestinian side. Well, I don't know. Uh, Berzat University poll

01:32:46.980 finds Palestinians too. Look, in the middle of a war, in the middle of a war, people answer questions

01:32:50.460 stupid. The fact of the matter is I've met plenty of Palestinians. I know plenty of Palestinians.

01:32:54.360 They're just normal people like you and me. They want to live in peace. You want to talk about

01:32:58.180 armed factions of armed, uh, Islamists who want to kill people. That's one thing. That's not the

01:33:04.300 same as the population of the people of Palestine. It's this propaganda that these people are barbarians

01:33:09.880 from, you know, the other side of Pakistan from here. Palestinians in the West Bank were surveyed

01:33:14.540 about the, uh, over their support for October 7th. And it was found that Hamas, uh, received a

01:33:19.680 generally lower score of 76%. As in their views of various entities, residents answered overwhelmingly

01:33:24.720 in support of the military wings of terror organizations, Palestinian Islamic Jihad with

01:33:28.460 84%. Al-Aqsa martyrs brigades, 80%. Al-Qassan brigades with 89%. Hamas 76. That's terrible. I'd like to

01:33:35.460 know what those numbers were previously. Um, you know, in, when you're not in the middle of a violent

01:33:40.520 conflict and, and honestly, guys, I think it's just, isn't it only fair that we recognize that

01:33:46.060 we're having this conversation deep into the future now when it's 2023 and the Netanyahu doctrine is

01:33:52.280 clearly shipwrecked on fire here. And this could have been resolved. I mean, Colin Powell tried to

01:33:59.060 get George W. Bush to do a Palestinian state 20 years ago and Sharon's men stopped them. The, the

01:34:05.640 Jinsa crowd, as Powell called them, stopped them. And Sharon's men bragged that we saw the whites in

01:34:11.500 Bush's eyes. He blinked first. Ha ha ha. We got away with it. My, my, so let me, let me, let me

01:34:17.420 throw something in here. That was a question. Like, don't you think that they could have,

01:34:20.440 should have solved this 20 years ago when Colin Powell tried to get Bush to do it then?

01:34:24.280 I think it's pretty obvious now that a Palestinian state would have always been a bad idea for the

01:34:29.100 state of Israel. That it's quite obvious that in their own interests, just literally from the

01:34:32.880 core perspective of protecting their citizens from terrorism, it would be a terrible idea for there

01:34:37.660 to be a Palestinian state. So in the West Bank, I think it would be absolutely irresponsible of

01:34:42.040 them. What year was this guy? I am, I am not a two state solution. 2002 and three. Right. So

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01:35:43.680 iGaming Ontario. When you really care about someone, you shouted from the mountaintops. So on behalf of

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01:35:56.780 about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird, I don't remember saying that part.

01:36:05.740 Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get insurance that's really big on care. Did I mention that we care?

01:36:12.800 The first thing I want to say is. I don't care about Israel or Palestine. I care about as much

01:36:21.700 I care as much as I care as much as I do about Burma, Myanmar and Azerbaijan and Armenia, in which

01:36:29.220 that I deeply care about the death, the human suffering, the war, the conflict, the American

01:36:33.880 foreign policy of funding and these things. But the fascinating thing to me is the self-identification

01:36:39.240 of one or the other that we see from Americans in this. The fascinating thing to me is you absolutely

01:36:45.160 do have pro-Zionist and more loosely more just pro-Israel factions in the United States. And then

01:36:51.260 you have pro-Palestinian and the arguments typically come from a self-identification with

01:36:55.720 one or the other. Now, it's it's it's I much prefer the more libertarian of like I don't look it's a

01:37:02.560 foreign country. You know, I understand the U.S. military apparatus and their interests in the

01:37:06.460 region, as well as all the other countries they're funding and why they're funding it.

01:37:10.000 But it is strange to me that we often see and I'm not accusing either of you of doing this,

01:37:15.960 but I think this is an interesting point in the in domestic policy. There are protesters,

01:37:19.540 you know, trying to storm the DNC. There's children marching through through halls of their high

01:37:23.420 schools, identifying with one of these other groups. When I was in Northern Ireland, I'm in

01:37:31.100 Belfast at the Peace Wall. On one side of the Peace Wall, they're they're aligned with Palestine.

01:37:35.920 And on the other side, they claim to actually be a lost tribe of Israel. I'm like, what is up with

01:37:41.360 this conflict? I can just say this. Oh, you know what? At the end of the day, like it my view

01:37:48.300 often of the morality and the question of the two state solution is how about we secure our borders?

01:37:54.020 We bring jobs back to the United States. We stop spending all this money overseas.

01:37:56.960 America first. Look, when it comes to identifying with these people, I have to tell you, I am a

01:38:01.080 libertarian. And to me, there's only two kinds of people in this world, government employees and

01:38:05.740 everybody else. I mean that sincerely. I absolutely identify with the civilians of the population of

01:38:13.580 Israel just as much as the Palestinians. Or if you want to put it negatively, I don't identify with

01:38:19.960 the Palestinians or the Israelis any more than with any other group of people in the world.

01:38:25.740 To me, noncombatants or noncombatants, they have my sympathy arm. And by the way, Hamas is not a

01:38:33.380 government, but they are an armed militia of terrorists who would very much like to be a

01:38:37.380 government. So that counts to me. So so I am. That's whose side I'm on is on the side of innocent

01:38:43.540 suffering caught between these armed men fighting over lines on a map. And I agree with that for all

01:38:49.320 regions. I agree with that with the Uyghur Muslims, the camps. I agree with what's going on,

01:38:52.860 you know, my armor of Burma and Azerbaijan with the Christians and Armenia.

01:38:56.280 Nagorno-Karabakh right now is horrible what's going on.

01:38:58.800 And so I have an I actually have an I have an answer for for the Israel-Palestine conflict.

01:39:04.560 I think it solves all of our problems. I think it should have been proposed a long time ago. And

01:39:09.220 it's I don't care. Do whatever you want. We are the United States. Let your conflict be your

01:39:13.840 conflict. Yeah, this is the, you know, I'll go with you that far. But we're implicated in all this.

01:39:17.620 This is our money and our weapons.

01:39:18.720 Now you can both yell at me.

01:39:19.960 Right. Well, I mean, but there's there's a point to that that's true, right?

01:39:22.720 I agree, by the way, like we don't I don't think our interventions, you know,

01:39:27.960 essentially this attempt at diplomacy with the two state solution. I don't think any of that's

01:39:31.240 been helpful. And in fact, I think the actual way to like the two state solution and the sort

01:39:35.700 of insistence on creating a new state where there's currently a sovereign that's ultimately

01:39:40.520 a generator of war. Like I think one interesting tension in sort of your overall worldview and my

01:39:44.960 from my perspective is this like you are broadly speaking anti-war, right? You want to see fewer

01:39:50.020 wars, fewer conflicts. Am I right? Like that you're antiwar.org or antiwar.com. But I think

01:39:56.480 that the this position on the on the conflict, this sort of like in blaming Israel for the failure

01:40:02.420 to give a Palestinian state out of the territory they're currently sovereign over and insisting

01:40:07.400 that I think that that is itself the generator of war and the ultimate way to peace here, the

01:40:12.600 elegant and simple way to peace that is happened everywhere else historically in the world is for

01:40:17.720 everybody to say, you know what? Israel is sovereign over the territory that was formerly

01:40:21.460 in the mandate. They're the sovereign. And if you want something different, you need to negotiate it

01:40:25.220 with them. And if you want to go to fight with them, well, you better be ready for what they're

01:40:28.380 going to do in response. And we don't care. Including the West Bank and Gaza. Including the West Bank and

01:40:32.260 67 in a war that they started, even though that's totally against the UN Charter that they signed and

01:40:37.760 the fourth Geneva Convention. We can get into history there, but Egypt and Syria are responsible

01:40:42.340 for the Casaspelli in that war. They're the ones who blockaded the states of Tehran. I got the quote

01:40:47.020 from Begin here talking about how they started. If you want to get into that, man. I'm pretty deep

01:40:52.520 on the 67. Okay, good. But my question is, to this point, history, history, history, all these all

01:40:58.180 these different facts and all these different people come up. All right, let's say that outside of my I

01:41:02.780 don't care, you're not United States, do whatever you want argument. People actually think, well,

01:41:06.080 there's a real risk of regional conflict escalating and pulling in other factions. So

01:41:10.300 there is a point of, we're there in some degree. We have to at least have some kind of plan for this.

01:41:17.860 Wait, we need to talk about Netanyahu's support for Hamas. This is a big deal.

01:41:22.460 Let me make this point and we'll get that. So if we go back and we keep trying to make

01:41:29.020 arguments about who invaded whom, we have Max Blumenthal and Tim Kastirel argue that it was

01:41:35.480 actually a Jewish kingdom that was invaded and conquered by Muslims and the Jewish people there

01:41:41.720 were forced to convert by threat of death. And that's why the Zionists wanted to return, et cetera,

01:41:47.280 et cetera. And what he said was, I hope I'm not getting his argument wrong, but my general

01:41:51.500 understanding was the people who are currently in Palestine are the people who have always been

01:41:55.260 there, who are forced under threat of death to convert. And the people who have come back as the

01:41:59.320 Zionists are the descendants of those who are expelled, refusing to convert.

01:42:02.040 And I'm like, well, it sounds like we've got a multi-generational thousand year war and there's

01:42:06.700 no moral argument for who are who, like, if you, but that's kind of a cop out though, Tim,

01:42:11.180 because honestly, look, the Zionist project started in the late 19th century.

01:42:14.780 But my point is not that, and this is what I find frustrating. I don't care at all.

01:42:19.860 Well, whatever. You're trying to say, look, they've been fighting about this for thousands

01:42:22.740 a year. What I'm saying is right now, as Will pointed out, Israel is, is in control. And this

01:42:29.380 argument of, of inflating or empowering Palestine into greater numbers will exacerbate the problem.

01:42:34.980 I don't care who's right. I don't care who's wrong. I don't care who invaded first. I don't

01:42:38.560 care who's always been there. I care about how do we end conflict and why first my point, I don't

01:42:43.980 care. Do whatever you want. We're not involved. If we have to be, then the issue is why would we

01:42:48.480 make the problem worse by expanding Palestine? Well, how about we're making problems worse by

01:42:55.260 protecting the Israelis while they steal all that's left of Palestine? Why don't you frame

01:43:00.220 it that way? My point, my first point is we shouldn't be involved at all. Okay. Then why

01:43:04.980 would there be an argument from anti-war activists to give Palestine more? What to give them more?

01:43:10.600 The argument is stop abetting Israel, taking what they have left, Tim. If, if the United States

01:43:16.080 completely is out of the equation, does Israel, what does Israel do? Well, I don't know for sure,

01:43:20.320 but I'll tell you if America's completely out of the equation and they go ahead and finish

01:43:25.740 cleansing the land and stealing all that land, then at least it's not on us. So my point is,

01:43:31.940 I don't presume that though. I think, as I said before, when the, the, the Connelly's a rice example,

01:43:36.420 and there are others that America oftentimes disincentivizes the Israeli government from seeking

01:43:43.180 peace, I think they might've figured out a way to negotiate their way out of this crisis a long

01:43:48.740 time ago. If America, if Joe Biden and John McCain weren't always there to cash a check and save their

01:43:55.520 ass. My point is why, why even have a conversation about a two state solution or any kind of negotiating

01:43:59.680 at all, instead of a don't care, do whatever you want. Well, look, I am a libertarian. I'm a total

01:44:04.900 non-interventionist. That's my premise. One is I don't want a U S government to exist at all,

01:44:10.440 much less do anything to anyone. We're arguing all other things being equal in the current

01:44:18.780 situation. What's going on here. And in fact, I'm not dead set on having a two state solution.

01:44:24.440 It ain't my problem. But what I am saying is the current situation is the people of Palestine are

01:44:30.340 under not just martial law, but under foreign military occupation law. That is, they live in

01:44:36.060 a totalitarian state. They've been under total occupation since 1967. I mean, before that they had

01:44:43.060 been sold out in a secret deal to the King of Jordan, the people of the West Bank, but they've

01:44:48.100 been under Israeli military occupation since 67. And that's the, the proximate cause of the problem

01:44:56.220 here, man, is that they don't have independence and they don't have citizenship. They're just occupied

01:45:01.500 and completely screwed. And real quick on 1967, Bagan said in June 67, we again had a choice.

01:45:08.100 The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really

01:45:13.540 about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. And he said

01:45:20.040 that. And Rabin, Yitzhak Rabin too, said, I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions

01:45:26.300 he sent into Sinai on May 14th would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He

01:45:31.540 knew it and we knew it. And in 1972, uh, general Paled told Haaretz the thesis that the danger of

01:45:38.180 genocide was hanging over us in June, 1967, and that Israel was fighting for his physical existence

01:45:43.480 is only a bluff, which was born and developed after the war. Um, and I mean, that just ignores the,

01:45:50.940 I mean, the basic problem that Egypt decided to put a blockade on the Straits of Tehran and shut off

01:45:54.940 is all Israeli shipping to Asia. I mean, I don't know if you, we have a map or something that you

01:45:58.660 could show it, but the Southern tip of Israel touches the Straits of Tehran, which attached to

01:46:02.820 the Red Sea. Yeah. Right. And that's Israel's only sea access to straight to the Middle East and to

01:46:09.300 Asia. Otherwise they have to go all the way around Africa from their Mediterranean ports and Egypt

01:46:13.920 decided. But that's not what they said though. And what they said at the time was that Egypt attacked

01:46:17.340 them and they were defending themselves. Not, well, we have a problem at our port here.

01:46:21.020 They said Egypt had its military on the border, which it did. It kicked out the

01:46:24.860 Egypt kicked out the peacekeepers, put its military into the Sinai Peninsula along the

01:46:28.800 border with Israel. And remember it was Egypt and Syria as the United Arab Republic together

01:46:33.040 that, or Egypt and Jordan, Egypt and Syria, I forget. One of those.

01:46:36.140 Egypt and Syria, I believe.

01:46:36.480 I think it was Egypt and Syria. Um, they were both going to attack it and Israel, you know,

01:46:41.240 had to, as a result of all this activity, the blockade, the, the moved troops had to activate

01:46:46.140 all its reserves. Israel is a reserve based army. It can't keep those people activated forever

01:46:50.060 because they have to go back to work. It's their, in almost their entire work. Like it's

01:46:54.440 a huge chunk of their working age population. They can't just keep the, keep, you know, stay

01:46:57.780 active forever. So Egypt, Egypt, Egypt, Egypt, put them in impossible, give them a spell and

01:47:03.960 put them in an impossible bind.

01:47:05.120 I need to know more about this because it is very complicated, but I know that there was

01:47:08.600 a previous deal with United Nations forces were agreed by peacekeepers were agreed by Egypt

01:47:14.340 to keep the port of Akuba open. And there was, I forgot exactly how it happened, but there was

01:47:20.780 previous controversy there. The Israelis hadn't even agreed to allow those UN forces there.

01:47:25.720 And then when the Egyptians pulled them out, that was when the Israelis took that as their

01:47:30.100 casus belly. But in other words, though, it wasn't a real one.

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01:48:31.060 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops. So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance,

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01:48:58.080 Did I mention that we care?

01:49:01.560 And that was why they were able to destroy the Egyptian Air Force on the ground. It was because

01:49:06.440 it was sitting on the ground. Well, let's jump back to the one thing we keep saying we're going

01:49:10.460 to talk about. Netanyahu's support of Hamas. Yes, let's talk about this. So I urge people to look

01:49:15.340 up, especially Richard Sale in UPI. This is the prehistory of this. Okay. Sheikh Yassin,

01:49:21.140 the old man in the wheelchair. Hamas was not created by Israel. It was created by the Muslim

01:49:26.600 Brotherhood. And it was mostly a charity at first. And the Israelis built them up through direct

01:49:33.100 financing and through arresting and persecuting their competition, built them up. As they said

01:49:38.320 explicitly, in fact, I have a statement here. I have a quote here from the New York Times in 1981,

01:49:44.100 where they first talk about how, yes, we're starting to finance all the mosques. We're trying to build up

01:49:49.880 a right-wing religious alternative to the PLO, which was sort of half commie, half nationalist,

01:49:58.060 right? And so that was the policy. So if you read Andrew Higgins in the Wall Street Journal and

01:50:05.480 Richard Sale in UPI, also Robert Dreyfuss has a great treatment of this in his book Devil's Game,

01:50:12.020 how the United States helped unleash fundamentalist Islam. And it's about how the whole point was to

01:50:17.140 divide and conquer the Palestinians by promoting this right-wing religious alternative to the PLO.

01:50:24.780 And so this is very important, too, for the Iraq War. I don't know if you know this one,

01:50:29.420 but it is true. As I mentioned before, in January of 2004, Sheikh Yassin said he wanted peace and he

01:50:36.180 wanted to sign on the dotted line and they assassinated him. And when they assassinated him,

01:50:41.660 remember, Tim, the riot in Fallujah where the Blackwater guards were lynched and their bodies

01:50:47.140 burned and hung from a bridge in April of 2004? That was in revenge for Israel's assassination of

01:50:53.500 Sheikh Yassin. And the guys who did it called themselves the Sheikh Yassin Brigade, and they

01:50:57.960 passed out flyers saying that was their motive. And they dragged a guy's body through the streets in a

01:51:03.760 car with Sheikh Yassin in the windshield. And it was that lynching of those Blackwater guards in

01:51:08.600 reaction to Israel's assassination of their old sock puppet ally, Yassin, that was the proximate

01:51:17.280 cause for George Bush ordering James Mattis to go in there and smash that city.

01:51:21.180 I don't mean to distract you, but I don't think, I mean, we're trying to get to the focus on

01:51:24.560 Israel and Netanyahu.

01:51:26.860 I know.

01:51:27.420 The question of Iraq is a little irrelevant.

01:51:29.620 It is important that their assassination of Sheikh Yassin severely disrupted American plans and

01:51:36.020 policies in Iraq War II. But you're right. I'll leave that aside.

01:51:38.220 So here's the thing about Netanyahu. Okay. I have all these quotes here from Netanyahu.

01:51:46.960 I'll try to get to only the very best ones from Netanyahu and his finance minister.

01:51:53.800 But I have, in fact, if people go to antiwar.com slash Scott, my last article is called

01:51:59.680 Netanyahu's support for Hamas backfired. And it has the entire collection of quotes here

01:52:05.860 for people who want to look at this. Okay. But first, this is Bezalel Smatrich. This is the leader

01:52:11.160 of Israel's Religious Zionist Party. He's the current finance minister. And he said this in 2021.

01:52:17.140 He said, the PA is a liability and Hamas is an asset. On the international playing field,

01:52:25.080 in this game of delegitimization, think about it for a second. The PA is a liability and Hamas is an

01:52:33.220 asset. It's a terrorist organization. Nobody will recognize it. Nobody will give it status at the

01:52:39.780 ICC, the International Criminal Court, and nobody will let them push resolutions at the UN,

01:52:45.320 which would cause us to need an American veto. I'm not sure at all that given the current situation

01:52:51.000 and the current fact that the central playing field that we're playing in is international,

01:52:55.660 Abu Mazen, that is a boss of the PA, is costing us serious casualties. He means political or PR

01:53:01.980 casualties. And Hamas in such a situation would be an asset. And now the questioner had asked him,

01:53:08.280 yeah, but isn't Hamas dangerous? And he ended with, I don't think we need to be afraid of Hamas.

01:53:15.780 And then Netanyahu, I have, sorry, I'm paging down here. This is the, uh, geez, I hope I can find it.

01:53:22.500 Netanyahu, I'll have to find the exact quote here. Netanyahu says, um, we must, oh, here it is.

01:53:29.320 Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering

01:53:38.220 Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy to isolate the Palestinians

01:53:46.720 in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. It's impossible to reach an agreement with them.

01:53:52.940 Everyone knows this, but we control the height of the flames. Okay. So this is absolute imperial

01:54:01.660 hubris and arrogance. And it goes to show what a dirty, like cynical game that these guys are

01:54:08.020 playing here. They want to colonize that West Bank. They don't want to negotiate independence.

01:54:13.560 They call it Judea and Samaria. They want to take it. And so as long as they have a perfect little

01:54:19.800 enemy in Gaza, they can point to the, to Hamas and say, well, we have no partner for peace.

01:54:27.380 You don't expect us to negotiate with these terrorists. Do you? And it works because of

01:54:31.940 course you don't expect them to negotiate with a bunch of terrorists. And so it's the perfect plan.

01:54:36.420 As I said before, Hamas are very bad guys, but they're just pawns on Israel's chessboard here.

01:54:41.720 So I want to make a few points, right? So again, the question ultimately was like Netanyahu,

01:54:48.720 allowing Qatar to give money and allow money to go to asking them to, right? I don't know if it was an

01:54:54.000 asking. I think it was like, you know, Qatar asked Netanyahu and Netanyahu and Likudik.

01:54:58.340 Not according to Avigdor Lieberman, who said that they were, that, that Qatar and Turkey were sick

01:55:03.420 and tired of Hamas's antics and Netanyahu went over there and begged them. That was according to

01:55:07.920 his own defense minister at the time. In any event, Netanyahu will certainly suffer

01:55:11.380 the myths politically. Like I think you've seen in the polling in Israel, the domestic opinion polling,

01:55:15.860 that if the election were held again today, Gantz would come in. Gantz who leads,

01:55:19.620 I think blue and white or the, the Israel one of United for Israel. Sorry to interrupt. So we do

01:55:24.680 concede that this is part and part. We agree. This is part and parcel of the Netanyahu doctrine

01:55:29.340 is keeping Hamas in power in Gaza, bolstering them in order to thwart a Palestinian state.

01:55:36.200 As far as I can tell, I think you are correct on the fact that there was this

01:55:38.640 divide and conquer approach to the PA and Hamas. Does that change your perspective of the situation

01:55:44.360 at all? Not in particular. I mean, it's one of the reasons, you know, this is, hold on,

01:55:47.920 let me explain. So you are, I mean, it basically, it means that what Netanyahu and Shemotric and the

01:55:55.040 they made a serious and very bad miscalculation on behalf of their people. That's, we call that bad

01:56:00.280 statesmanship. Like you thought you were doing something good and it turns out you enabled

01:56:03.920 the growing of this terrorist group that go, go and kill them. However, that terrorist group now did

01:56:09.420 go ahead and butcher 1500 civilians. Agree. Right. And the Israeli public is unified on the need to

01:56:16.160 eliminate this terrorist group. 12. 12. Okay. 1200. So I'm overstating. The survey you referenced

01:56:19.880 earlier says 12. 12. Okay. So 1200, butcher 1200, kidnap 200 more. Yeah. Right. Um, so there's a

01:56:26.920 unified, um, front. And so, and here's the thing, and this critique that you're making of Netanyahu is

01:56:32.400 sort of in tension with your other arguments, i.e. your critique is they did too much to prop up and

01:56:38.640 fund, especially recently, this group that was actually a terrorist group and a huge danger to them.

01:56:43.040 Should they have cut off all funding and isolated them and tried to eliminate them beforehand?

01:56:47.720 Should they have, I mean, because now the Israeli public and the Israeli government is like, okay,

01:56:52.000 we agree. We got Hamas wrong. We're going to go in and take them out. And you're opposed to that.

01:56:56.520 Right. Like you're opposed to the invasion, or I guess maybe you're just supportive of some

01:56:59.260 market reprisal stuff that I don't think would really get the job done, especially given all the

01:57:02.920 money that went in. So I think, you know, your argument, you have identified something,

01:57:08.560 a mistake made by Netanyahu as Israeli statesmen. But the, the logical conclusion of like, okay,

01:57:15.600 if that was a mistake, then the answer now is going to be, okay, we're not going to do that again.

01:57:19.680 And we're going to need to eliminate this group that we thought we could control. We thought we

01:57:23.480 could control the height of the flame. We were wrong. Turns out they butchered 1500 of our citizens.

01:57:27.500 Now we're going to make sure that never happens again. Isn't that the right answer for Israel?

01:57:31.000 Like that, which is goes back to my original point. Like, what is my core thesis? Israel is

01:57:35.140 acting reasonably and righteously right now, but you're just taking it from one direction. The

01:57:39.680 other answer would be, it's time to throw out Likud, get somebody like Gantz in there, who is

01:57:45.640 a general and less ideological and go ahead and negotiate that state. I think the Israeli public,

01:57:52.660 put the PA, wait, go ahead and let a boss take control of the Gaza strip so that you do have

01:57:58.640 someone to talk to so that you can negotiate independence for these people. I mean, Will,

01:58:03.820 you're saying they can't have citizenship and equality. They can't have independence.

01:58:08.540 They're just going to have to learn to live under foreign military occupation, martial law,

01:58:13.200 or F off to Egypt or the go, go burn in the Sinai desert somewhere.

01:58:19.420 They're going to have the most they're going to get is limited self-government, right? Like

01:58:22.560 they're not going to get a state, right? But limited self-government in the sense of like,

01:58:25.660 you can collect your own taxes and you can spend, you can have your own internal police force

01:58:29.320 and you can handle. Okay. Now we're talking, so now we're talking about a bi-national state where

01:58:33.080 they would have their own police. You could have maybe one. That's what's in the PA, right? They

01:58:36.680 already have their own police in the PA as far as. Well, sorry. I mean, look, there's, there's a big

01:58:40.520 discrepancy between what the Palestinian authority sovereignty is versus what a bi-national state

01:58:47.080 would truly look like. I mean, the PA was created by Israel and America to be the subcontractor of the

01:58:52.120 occupation. It's not exactly a Palestinian popular sovereignty type of organization, much less Hamas.

01:59:00.100 But you know, the reality is, and this is where we go back to that, the secret or the candid camera

01:59:06.720 recording of Netanyahu, where he's talking about how, again, this, I'm not defending Bill Clinton's

01:59:12.160 honor. He doesn't have any. Okay. But what he's saying is, ha ha ha. I sexually assaulted Bill Clinton

01:59:18.020 right in the face. And I got him to do whatever I wanted. And all I had to do was lie to him and tell

01:59:22.840 him that, oh, don't worry, Bill, they're going to have their state and everything. They'll have all

01:59:27.760 this territory. All I need is my special little military security areas. And then ha ha ha. My

01:59:35.100 special little military security areas are all of area C, two thirds of the West Bank. And that sucker,

01:59:41.580 Bill Clinton, I got over on him. And then the lady says, geez, but are you going to get away with

01:59:46.060 that? And he says, don't worry. I know how to handle America. America's easily moved. 80% of

01:59:52.220 them support us. It's absurd. He says, mocking American support for him screwing over our leaders,

02:00:00.080 trying to hold him to his government's signature on documents and promised positions that they would

02:00:06.820 implement. I mean, I don't think that's Likud ever really agreed to that. I mean, part of why Likud came

02:00:11.020 back into power in the first place is because the Israeli. Well, he's talking about what he signed at,

02:00:15.060 why he's talking about what he signed at the Y river accord and how he didn't live up to it.

02:00:20.020 Like, I, again, I think that I don't, I don't, I don't know enough about the Y river accord to even

02:00:25.040 speak to that. Well, you've seen the video of Netanyahu mocking how he got over on Bill Clinton.

02:00:28.880 Yeah. Like I just, I just, again, I don't, you know, that's where I've said before. And I agree.

02:00:32.360 I still don't care that he like mocked and got one over on Bill Clinton. I think that the entire

02:00:36.400 American diplomatic track under the Clinton years was absurd and ridiculous and very much,

02:00:41.580 obviously something that Israel would have been insane to support. So, uh, I think that instead,

02:00:47.640 like, I want to see peace. I think the, the world in which Palestine gets a state is not one where

02:00:54.240 there's peace. Dear Lord, I think it's one where there's actually a much bigger and larger war in

02:00:58.740 a world where whatever government ends up arising and taking control of the West Bank and Gaza is able

02:01:03.660 to build up a sovereign military. I mean, you look at what they do with just a militia.

02:01:07.760 Look, that's such a, that's such a red herring. The entire discussion. It's the core of the

02:01:11.620 discussion. No, it's not. No, it's not. It never has been ever at all since the takeover of the

02:01:16.680 West Bank and Gaza Strip in 67, since Camp David in 79, since Madrid in 92 and Oslo in 93 and Camp

02:01:23.260 David in 2000 and all the way through Annapolis under W. Bush. Nobody ever said the Palestinians get to

02:01:30.220 have a standing army. That was always excluded. The debate, that was never even part of the debate,

02:01:36.400 Will, and you must know this. The debate was whether they get East Jerusalem or whether they

02:01:41.280 get Abu Dis, this tiny little suburb of East Jerusalem. The question was whether they get

02:01:45.860 67 borders or how much land do they swap? The question was how many refugees living in squalid

02:01:52.660 camps in Lebanon and Syria are allowed to come home or not? The question was never the size of

02:01:58.000 their standing military force. I understand that that's not the question, but I'm saying like any real

02:02:02.820 session of sovereignty is going to just increase security risks. Yeah, real sovereignty was never

02:02:07.600 in question here. Always the best that they were ever. That's certainly not what the way that the

02:02:11.800 Palestinians have ever talked about. That's not true. And all you got to do is read the Palestine

02:02:15.480 papers. That was never even a topic of argument in any of these debates. And when it comes to even

02:02:21.700 the borders, the land swaps, East Jerusalem and the right of return, the Palestinians under Abbas have

02:02:27.880 been absolutely obsequious and willing to sign on the dotted line for everything. That's why they

02:02:33.060 needed Hamas in Gaza so that they could say they have no partner for peace because under Abu Mazen, they

02:02:39.360 absolutely do have one. And that was why they say we can't let the PA rule Gaza or else the Labor Party

02:02:45.540 will tell us to give up a Palestinian state. So we got to keep the bad guys in power in Gaza.

02:02:51.540 Gaza in 2005, the PA was in charge. Then Hamas threw them out. It wasn't like...

02:02:56.640 No, well, what happened was there was a coup. There was an election and Hamas won, unlike what you hear

02:03:01.920 in the propaganda, Hamas won a plurality. They did not win a majority in a single district in that

02:03:08.460 election. And by the way, at the time, the majority population of Gaza was minors. Is that

02:03:14.660 even such a thing? The majority are minors? 44.45 percent. Yeah. So they did get a majority in the

02:03:22.000 parliament, but that meant that they had to form a coalition government with the PA. And then America

02:03:26.880 and Israel intervened and said no coalition government allowed. And then what'd they do? They

02:03:31.700 punished the PA, not Hamas. They refused to let the PA get any of their tax money and they

02:03:37.860 completely emasculated them. You got to read this great article if you've never read it. It's called

02:03:41.940 The Gaza Bombshell by David Rose. I know it's in Vanity Fair, which sounds ridiculous, but it's a

02:03:48.000 great piece. And you know what? I was amazed by this. I just reread it the other day and I totally

02:03:52.660 forgotten. He quotes in there David Wormser, the guy that wrote the clean break plan for Netanyahu

02:03:59.280 and was Dick Cheney's Middle East advisor who said, we've got to do Iraq War II. And he quotes David

02:04:04.900 Wormser, who's appalled at the attempted coup where Elliott Abrams, the neocon, worked with

02:04:11.460 Ehud Olmert's government to try to build up a Fatah military force to attack Hamas in the Gaza

02:04:21.180 Strip and drive them out. But it backfired because they knew all about it and they got a hold of some

02:04:25.700 of the weapons. And so Hamas kicked their ass and drove them out. And it was only then that Hamas

02:04:30.600 was able to take over the Strip. At the time, there was a question of if we're going to create a

02:04:34.820 coalition government, maybe we can use this to try to get Hamas to moderate and come toward the PA.

02:04:40.020 But the Israeli government refused to allow that to happen. And they punished the PA.

02:04:44.580 Why would they though? I mean, Hamas is like, at the time it was Bush. It was Bush and Omer who

02:04:49.620 forced them to hold the election in the first place. And then Condoleezza Rice goes, oh, whoops.

02:04:54.180 We didn't think that was going to happen. Hillary Clinton said, if we're going to hold an election,

02:04:57.500 we got to make sure who's going to win it. You know how she is about democratic elections. Oh,

02:05:01.620 by the way, I saw a thing that you did on Mike Flynn and his framing. That was really great.

02:05:05.020 Oh, well, thank you. I'm a big anti-Russiagate guy. I really like that.

02:05:10.640 I just, once I get on a Hillary tangent. I want to bring something up because we were talking,

02:05:16.000 I think Will asked for a map. I pulled up a map of the Gaza Strip. And what I've been looking at is

02:05:22.920 the various views you can get of Gaza. And I do think one thing that a lot of left activists,

02:05:32.280 a lot of the more pro-Palestine activists in this country, I don't, I'm not referring to the

02:05:35.940 people who actually learned it on the issues. When we see these kids on TikTok say things like,

02:05:39.680 you know, they read the Bin Laden letter and they agree with him or whatever.

02:05:42.160 These are the kind of people I'm talking about who don't actually know anything about the good

02:05:46.760 and the bad of Gaza. And you can make all the political arguments, but on the, on the macro,

02:05:50.980 when people say it's an open air prison, they make all these references. In fact,

02:05:54.640 I can't remember who I was talking to, but I asked them about farms and they told me that there were no

02:05:58.500 farms and it's, well, there absolutely are. There's a bunch of farms. I don't know if there's

02:06:02.780 enough farms. And I said, how did they get food? A lot fewer than before. Cause these Israelis keep

02:06:06.760 moving the fence in and in and in and stealing more of that farmland. But my point was it's a,

02:06:11.480 it's one of the most densely populated places in the world with 2.2 to 2.5 million people.

02:06:15.840 Where do they get enough food? And I hear from some of the activists, oh, it has to be imported

02:06:19.900 and brought in. And then I see these videos from, you know, Al Jazeera where they say,

02:06:23.700 oh, they can't get these things. Well, there are farms there. I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying it's

02:06:27.380 important to understand this context. And additionally, there's actually, uh, there's

02:06:32.020 luxury in, in Gaza, I think is important to bring up as well that connected, but, but I'm not trying

02:06:37.580 to justify anything, or I think it's important to have a more, uh, holistic picture of some of the

02:06:43.220 things that exist in, uh, in Gaza. It is not all the, you know, we, we see these photos constantly

02:06:48.860 of a poverty and ghettos. And, uh, you know, let me just try and see if I can pull up, uh, any of

02:06:56.420 these resorts or whatever, you know, some of these things are actually, uh, quite beautiful,

02:07:00.940 quite nice that, that, that exists here. So I just don't want, I, I, what I'm trying to say is

02:07:06.020 this is not a moral statement on, is it doing well? Is it doing bad? It's just important to

02:07:10.800 bring up. If you actually go and look at some of the territories, the regions, the buildings,

02:07:14.380 there are nice places there.

02:07:16.020 Part of this was Trump's deal of the century, right? Remember Jerry Kushner said, what we're

02:07:19.840 going to do is we're just going to give them a bunch of money for economic development

02:07:23.000 through the Qataris was part of it, uh, for economic development. And they're just going

02:07:26.980 to have to learn to accept that instead of having the right to vote and the right to participate

02:07:32.080 in the government that rules over them. Instead of having independence or citizenship, we're

02:07:36.620 just going to give them money. And it didn't work. This was part of the net, not part of

02:07:40.980 the Netanyahu doctrine, the Abraham Accords bolstering Hamas and bribing the Palestinians. And look

02:07:46.380 what it's resulted in is this absolute catastrophe.

02:07:48.720 Well, I mean, I guess here's, here's part of the point I want to make off of this. Right.

02:07:51.760 And it's again, the like Gaza is not an open air prison, right? Just demonstrably. So Israel,

02:07:57.380 the idea that this is like, I mean, focus on the Potemkin parts of it, but a lot of it is

02:08:01.680 a horrible, horrible ghetto.

02:08:03.840 It's run by Hamas. They have, I mean, Israel does not govern Hamas, right? Like inter, and

02:08:11.120 it doesn't govern the Gaza Strip. It has security around it, but it doesn't govern it. Right.

02:08:15.800 Hamas is totally in charge prior to 10-7 of what happens inside the Gaza Strip. So like

02:08:23.040 when you talk about how I'm sitting here thinking like a Palestinian state is a terrible idea

02:08:28.120 because we're worried about military buildup and the ability to build up a military. Well,

02:08:32.540 that's the one thing that's really lacking in the Gaza. That's the only thing they didn't

02:08:36.400 really have outside of like negotiation over these border things and these fishing rights.

02:08:40.580 Like they can leave through Egypt. They just can't come into Israel unless they have a permit

02:08:45.420 for obvious reasons, given the intifadas, given the endless bombings and rockets and you name it.

02:08:52.040 So I think it's perfectly reasonable to sit here and say like get under, after 10-7, given what

02:08:58.760 Gaza had pre-10-7, which is, you know, like self-government without full sovereignty.

02:09:05.180 Why would we want them to have full sovereignty? It would be insane. And I think, I guess that gets

02:09:12.160 back to, you know. It's not really self-government. Again, we're talking about essentially, you know,

02:09:18.880 the strongest gang in the prison took it over when the warden and his guards retreated to the

02:09:24.680 perimeter. It's not like the people of Palestine have anything like a democratic system or process here

02:09:32.220 where they chose these people. This is just, and look, if you, if you read your Rothbard,

02:09:37.340 this is virtually the case of every state anywhere in the world. It's this most powerful armed gang

02:09:42.400 has control and seized it. And the people don't have the ability to overthrow them any more than

02:09:47.480 we have the ability to overthrow our government. They're stuck with them.

02:09:50.480 I mean, yeah, they're, they're stuck with Hamas. I don't see how this is an improvement.

02:09:54.700 I mean, I don't see how the, what the distinction is between the two state solution you suggest is like

02:10:00.920 the option that should have been negotiated vert and how that has, what that state would look like,

02:10:06.420 because you agree, you essentially can see that it shouldn't have a, shouldn't be militarized.

02:10:10.360 And what Hamas had in Gaza, I mean, in terms of like the rights that were allowed to it by Israel,

02:10:17.980 like, is there a meaningful distinction?

02:10:20.040 Well, I think so. They don't have a seaport or an airport or, you know, their, their travel is

02:10:25.800 completely restricted. Their ability to negotiate trade agreements with other nations is completely

02:10:31.540 restricted. I mean, they are under all the international laws and strictures. They are

02:10:35.840 still considered to be occupied territory. Right. But I mean, that's, you know, that's,

02:10:40.540 that's just an international title. Like the actual substantive life would be

02:10:43.740 I think saying that they have self-rule under Hamas is an overstatement here. And they are

02:10:50.400 essentially still under siege, under the control of the Israelis. And you can say that it's a

02:10:55.220 prosperous Indian reservation. It's not the Warsaw ghetto, but it is a ghetto and it is not independent.

02:11:02.420 And the people there have no representation given all the aid that controls them, given all the aid

02:11:07.080 that went to the Gaza strip over the past two decades, even under Hamas rule, if they had a one

02:11:11.920 decent statesman running the place, like let's say Nayib Bukele. All their decent statesmen are in

02:11:15.840 prison, man. I mean, they're talking right now about trying to release this guy, uh, uh, Barghouti

02:11:21.180 or whatever. No, Barghouti is the one in, in, in, uh, exiling Qatar. There's, I'm sorry, I forgot the

02:11:26.120 guy's name, but there's this guy who's like widely renowned as could be considered the leader of

02:11:31.060 the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. And he's locked in an Israeli prison

02:11:35.380 right now. And look what happened in 2018. Everybody always says, Oh, you guys are just terrorists.

02:11:39.360 Why not try some civil disobedience? Well, in 2018, they did the great March of Return and

02:11:44.800 Israeli snipers just shot them, killed 200 something of them and maimed a thousand, uh,

02:11:50.360 killed journalists and, and healthcare workers. You know, Thomas L. Friedman, who, uh, is considered

02:11:56.340 for some reason, like, uh, one of the top public intellectuals in America from the New York

02:12:00.220 Times, who's not a neoconservative. Um, but is, you know, was a hawk on Iraq, for example,

02:12:06.040 there's no bleeding heart. Um, he said, listen, it's for the people of Gaza. This is what they

02:12:11.800 need to do. They need to get on some Gandhi and some MLK and they need to do an unarmed peaceful

02:12:16.420 march up to that Gaza fence. And at that point, Israel will have no choice. They'll have to open

02:12:22.240 the gate and let them in. And it said what they do. They just sniped them all. And then Thomas

02:12:26.760 Freeman didn't say anything. Look, they killed them dead. We learn anything from that. It's that

02:12:31.460 Thomas has no idea what he's talking about. And of course the Israeli government's not just going to let

02:12:34.920 people approach. It's border given what just happened. It wasn't fully peaceful. Oh, come

02:12:40.980 on. They're throwing a couple of rocks and one guy lit a kite on fire. You don't get to do that.

02:12:45.200 This is like, this is just apologizing for like attacking the military. Anyone can go look at

02:12:50.080 the footage of the great March of Return. It was a mostly peaceful protest. Nothing, nothing like

02:12:56.760 Minneapolis. That was a joke for you, Tim. I will say that. It is in fact, was in fact a mostly

02:13:00.860 peaceful protest, which is the problem. It was, look, there were a couple of rocks

02:13:04.740 thrown. It was thousands of unarmed civilians marching peacefully. Last question. And I'll

02:13:11.560 ask Will first. I think Scott will have a, perhaps a more robust answer. If the border

02:13:17.400 surrounding Gaza was immediately removed instantly all at once, and the government of Israel said

02:13:24.580 all of the Gaza are free to move about the entire state of Israel, what do you think would

02:13:29.080 happen? One of the biggest pogroms in world history would happen. It would be October 7th

02:13:35.820 times a hundred. I think you'd see a mass slaughter of Israelis.

02:13:39.580 Wait, he didn't say the Israelis had to lay down all their arms first, did he?

02:13:42.780 Doesn't matter. It's not like, like Israeli gun ownership ain't that high, man. Like that's

02:13:46.820 what they found. That's, they had to do some like reactive stuff on 10-7.

02:13:50.240 Well, they're completely outnumbered and outarmed. So that's not true.

02:13:54.760 What do you think would happen in that circumstance?

02:13:56.460 Well, I'm certainly not recommending that they just tear down the fence and tell Hamas to run

02:14:00.880 wild. But what would happen? No, I mean, the hypothetical is crazy. Hamas is still there

02:14:05.000 and Hamas is still dangerous. Nobody who says there should be a one state solution or a two

02:14:09.520 state solution or a bi-national state solution says that I dream of Jeannie should just tear

02:14:14.860 down the fence and let Hamas run riot and do whatever they want, Tim. That's not the argument.

02:14:19.940 The argument is that through negotiation with the PA, or I don't know exactly how you get

02:14:26.040 there with the current situation in Gaza, but if the PA was in charge in Gaza on with

02:14:31.020 Israeli help, that then it would be possible to negotiate either a one state solution, a

02:14:36.600 two state solution, or some kind of bi-national type state. You know, they pulled this off in

02:14:41.720 Bosnia where tens of thousands, I think the numbers are exaggerated, but certainly high tens

02:14:48.280 of thousands of people were butchered for years by Serbs, Muslims, and Croats committed terrible

02:14:54.780 atrocities against innocent civilians. And then they stopped and they worked it out. And in fact,

02:15:00.080 I was reading the memoir of the last ambassador to Yugoslavia, where he talked about how, and we

02:15:07.060 don't even think about this. We don't even know this, but I mean, you know, as soon as I say it,

02:15:11.100 but otherwise you wouldn't think about this. There are millions of ethnic Germans that live inside

02:15:15.700 France right now, since the end of the Second World War. And talk about bad blood. These guys

02:15:22.200 have hated and fought each other for centuries, but because they are free, because they have

02:15:26.740 essentially a minarchist state, and the French regime is not forcing Frenchness on these Germans,

02:15:33.280 they're getting along. As we discussed earlier, 20% of the population of Palestine are Arab, Muslims,

02:15:40.480 Muslims, and Christians. And they get along just fine. They're not terrorists. They don't go around

02:15:44.900 murdering people all the time. Of Palestine. No, of Israel. I didn't know if you were doing like

02:15:50.360 an Israel is Palestine thing. Oh, I might have screwed up some words if I misspeak sometimes. But what I

02:15:54.960 meant to say was 20% of the population of Israel are Palestinians, and they get along perfectly fine.

02:16:02.900 Now, I'm not saying that they should, what, have a 60% majority and then get to lord it over all the

02:16:07.440 Israeli Jews. I mean, if you're going to have a state at all, it should be a very minarchist state

02:16:12.180 where it shouldn't matter who the police force is because their powers are so limited to only

02:16:17.700 protecting people's rights and that kind of thing. But we have, there are very, very few pure ethnic

02:16:24.180 states in the world anymore, anywhere. All the borders are drawn in crazy places, and they get along.

02:16:30.520 They figure it out. And including in places where there have been very bad civil wars and grudges

02:16:37.480 going back for decades and centuries. So it is not the case that it's always 10-7, and we'll never be

02:16:44.180 able to find a way out of this other than the total subjugation of the Palestinian people.

02:16:48.980 Will, if you want to respond and then give your final thoughts.

02:16:50.980 Yeah. I think that this, the point you make about the French and the Germans and Alsace and like all

02:16:56.880 these other places where, you know, there's been changes in the borders and changes in who lives

02:17:00.880 there. And there's no talk of a new state. There's no talk of violence and revolution. Those are all

02:17:05.980 indications of how badly we as America have messed up, messed this up in Israel in terms of pushing

02:17:11.860 a two-state solution. It is, that goes back to the point I-

02:17:14.760 But you don't support a one-state one either though, right?

02:17:16.180 I support Israel having sovereignty over the territory that is the mandate of Palestine and granting whatever

02:17:21.880 self-government they want to negotiate with the Palestinians.

02:17:24.220 And granting as little to zero rights to the Palestinians as they feel like.

02:17:29.640 Whatever the Palestinians can negotiate. I think that that's the way to peace, right? That's the

02:17:33.080 way to saying in a world where the entire, it's the entire world being so invested and so wanting

02:17:38.780 to pressure Israel into ceding something here that creates the underlying instability. And so the world

02:17:44.620 where everybody simply recognizes, no, Israel is sovereign over the former territory of the British

02:17:47.860 mandate, whatever, you know, and it's your problem to negotiate whatever you can't want in terms of

02:17:51.540 self-government. That's the world that leads to peace. That's the world that leads to what we saw

02:17:55.460 in France and Germany and all these other things.

02:17:57.840 That's the world that leads to what happened on 10-7. The Palestinians, as Netanyahu said in his

02:18:01.660 speech, they're just going to have to learn to live with their total defeat.

02:18:04.520 They only did it because they wanted attention. We started this in the beginning.

02:18:07.880 And it's the idea that like, if people didn't care-

02:18:10.600 The peace of desolation didn't work. The peace of their total defeat and capitulation did not take.

02:18:16.680 They continue to resist.

02:18:18.060 I think that that's ultimately because, you know, we've seen the enormous protests throughout the

02:18:24.200 world and the enormous protests to try and put enormous diplomatic pressure on Israel.

02:18:28.220 That's the stuff that gives, makes Hamas think that this sort of butchery works. Anyway, so-

02:18:33.980 Yeah. Final thoughts, response?

02:18:36.900 George Washington said that a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils.

02:18:42.420 Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases

02:18:48.560 where no real common interests exist, and infusing into one the enmities of the other betrays the

02:18:55.560 former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or

02:19:01.060 justification. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens who devote themselves to their

02:19:07.120 favorite nation, facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium,

02:19:14.160 sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearance of a virtuous sense of obligation,

02:19:19.960 a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good,

02:19:24.880 the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation. End quote.

02:19:31.700 Well, all right, gentlemen, this has been a, this has been a blast. I think we have actually solved

02:19:36.980 all of the Middle Eastern troubles.

02:19:39.740 One would help.

02:19:40.820 Scott, do you want to shout anything out?

02:19:42.620 Yeah. The most important project on the internet is antiwar.com, where all my guys do such great

02:19:47.740 work all the time. Libertarianinstitute.org. I've done almost 6,000 interviews going back to 2003,

02:19:54.080 all of which are available at scotthorton.org and at youtube.com slash scotthortonshow. And you can

02:19:59.980 follow me on Twitter, if you dare, at scotthortonshow.

02:20:03.720 Yeah. Follow me on Twitter at Will Chamberlain. Also, of course, follow the projects I'm involved

02:20:08.780 with, the Article 3 project and the Internet Accountability Project.

02:20:11.740 Right on. Gentlemen, thanks for hanging out.

02:20:13.400 Thank you.

02:20:13.760 Had a blast. We're actually going to go have cheeseburgers and skateboard now,

02:20:16.380 because Scott brought his board. It's going to be fun.

02:20:18.080 Everybody, thanks for hanging out. Make sure you subscribe to Tenant Media on all the social media

02:20:22.260 platforms. Next week will also be a blast. We are going to have a pre-recorded episode up for you,

02:20:27.060 because I believe next, it's Black Friday, right? Yeah. So we will have an episode,

02:20:30.940 and it's going to be a whole lot of fun. Thanks for hanging out, and we will see you all then.

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The Culture War - Tim Pool

The Culture War #38 - Israel Vs. Palestine, US Foreign Policy, And Terror

Summary

Transcript