The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #62 Abortion Debate & The GOP Civil War Over A Federal Ban ｜ The Culture War with Tim Pool w⧸Kristen Hawkins & Pastor Ryan Phipps

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00:00:59.320 Oh boy, it's the debate that no one ever tires of. Abortion.

00:01:05.260 And so we're going to talk about that.

00:01:07.100 But there is a lot of news going on, especially with Arizona as a major swing state,

00:01:11.840 and their 1864 law that will maybe be repealed.

00:01:16.400 We'll see how this ends up playing out.

00:01:17.880 But also, there's this internal civil war among people on the right where many pro-lifers are upset with Trump and GOP leadership

00:01:24.540 because they've maintained the position of let the states decide, whereas many pro-lifers say,

00:01:29.880 no, no, we need a full-on federal ban.

00:01:31.840 So we're going to talk about that.

00:01:32.820 And I'm sure we'll get into a lot more than just abortion because there's a lot of issues surrounding this.

00:01:37.980 But we have two great guests.

00:01:39.580 Would you like to introduce yourself first, Kristen?

00:01:41.660 Thanks for having me, Tim.

00:01:42.280 I'm Kristen Hawkins.

00:01:43.340 I'm president of the Pro-Life Generation Students for Life.

00:01:46.320 I'm a mom of four.

00:01:47.900 So it's really exciting to be here with you today.

00:01:49.860 Right on.

00:01:50.280 Thanks for hanging out.

00:01:50.760 We've got Ryan hanging out.

00:01:51.680 Would you like to introduce yourself?

00:01:52.660 My name is Ryan Phipps.

00:01:54.020 I'm a pastor in Bethesda, Maryland.

00:01:56.280 No one knows where Bethesda is, but it's the DMV, the D.C. metropolitan area.

00:02:01.140 Now, hold on.

00:02:02.300 The new Fallout show just came out on Amazon.

00:02:04.800 Oh.

00:02:05.840 So good.

00:02:06.760 Have you seen all of it?

00:02:07.840 Yes, as a Fallout fan, I love it.

00:02:11.780 As a Fallout fan, I'm upset that there's a lot of context missing that my friends, particularly

00:02:17.300 my girlfriend, I'm trying to explain to her what's going on.

00:02:19.360 But if the show is a standalone, it would still be good.

00:02:21.760 Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:02:23.760 But, so for those that have just started playing Fallout 3, they all know where Bethesda

00:02:27.780 is now.

00:02:29.080 Now I'm about to watch it.

00:02:30.260 Bethesda games, strangely enough, not in Bethesda anymore in Silver Spring.

00:02:34.640 Oh, really?

00:02:35.700 So, and then they have Fallout 76, which, have you played all these games?

00:02:39.760 I have only played the very first Fallout.

00:02:42.180 Wow.

00:02:42.500 Wait, wait, this is a game?

00:02:43.680 It's not a TV show?

00:02:44.700 It is a TV show.

00:02:45.380 It is a universe.

00:02:46.940 What?

00:02:47.820 It is a world.

00:02:49.340 Okay.

00:02:50.020 So, my 15-year-old isn't playing it, so I don't know it exists, I guess.

00:02:53.260 The latest is the online multiplayer 76, and it's in West Virginia.

00:02:57.340 Oh, nice.

00:02:57.540 That's why I brought that up, because it's Harper's Ferry.

00:03:00.460 It's basically all of West Virginia, so.

00:03:02.060 That's awesome.

00:03:02.800 That's kind of cool.

00:03:03.400 Yeah, the cool thing about Fallout 3 is it's basically DC, so it is a model different

00:03:07.260 DC.

00:03:08.180 So, yeah, anyway, now we know where Bethesda is, because we're all playing that game, but

00:03:11.780 anyway.

00:03:11.940 Except for me.

00:03:12.960 I don't know what I was talking about.

00:03:14.380 I suppose we'll just start jumping into it.

00:03:17.340 What are the opinions here?

00:03:19.740 I mean, you're pro-choice, Ryan?

00:03:21.780 Yes.

00:03:22.380 So, do you want to get started, explain what your views are, and then we'll just go nuts?

00:03:26.460 Yeah, I mean, so my views are less religious, even though I'm a pastor.

00:03:37.060 I think that I don't want to live in a country where the state or the federal government tells

00:03:48.180 people what to do with their bodies.

00:03:50.560 I believe that one of the things we can celebrate in America is that we can choose the kind of

00:04:01.920 life we want to lead, provided that it doesn't injure ourselves or others.

00:04:07.200 But that's what abortion is.

00:04:09.820 It injures another.

00:04:12.680 Well, I was just doing my opinions at this point.

00:04:17.640 Sure.

00:04:18.400 I mean, I think that's the fundamental question here is, what is abortion, and what does it

00:04:26.320 do, and the harms?

00:04:27.980 Because absolutely, I think that...

00:04:30.120 You're talking about life begins at conception, then, right?

00:04:33.140 Well, yes.

00:04:33.820 We all know life begins at conception.

00:04:35.360 And biologists confirm that life begins at conception.

00:04:38.820 Would you disagree?

00:04:39.820 I would, yeah.

00:04:41.900 When do you think you became you?

00:04:46.620 When did I become me?

00:04:48.380 Yeah.

00:04:48.660 When did you come into existence as Ryan?

00:04:51.740 On September 9th of 1976, when my body left my mother's body and was detached, and I began

00:04:59.340 to breathe and live on my own.

00:05:02.260 Before you were evacuated out of the womb?

00:05:05.780 I had to be connected to my mother's body in order to be alive.

00:05:10.400 But you were alive because things were happening, right?

00:05:14.240 Because you did it magically.

00:05:15.480 Your mother's vaginal canal is not magical.

00:05:18.280 It doesn't turn a non-living entity into a living entity.

00:05:23.180 You were alive.

00:05:24.300 You were born and you changed locations.

00:05:26.440 Now, your degree of dependency changed, but you were still alive.

00:05:30.660 There were, right?

00:05:31.700 Cellular reproduction was happening.

00:05:33.780 You were growing.

00:05:34.820 You were metabolizing food into energy.

00:05:37.280 So if you look at the biological markers for what is alive and what is life, you were alive.

00:05:43.840 Are you speaking of a life in terms of a heartbeat or a soul?

00:05:52.180 What do you mean by that?

00:05:53.200 I'm talking science.

00:05:54.800 I'm saying science is definitive.

00:05:57.980 We know human life begins at conception when two parts unite and form a unique whole that's

00:06:05.860 never existed before or will never exist again.

00:06:08.500 A unique DNA code has been created.

00:06:12.020 And at that moment...

00:06:13.860 Plants have a unique DNA code.

00:06:15.960 Would you call us...

00:06:16.840 Sure, sure.

00:06:17.020 Is it wrong to eat a salad?

00:06:18.200 Plants are alive.

00:06:19.180 Humans...

00:06:19.980 There are lots of things that are alive.

00:06:20.900 I think I was eating the babies.

00:06:21.840 Yeah, animals are alive.

00:06:24.180 I hope not, too.

00:06:25.280 But to say that you weren't alive until you left your mother's womb and that degree of

00:06:30.320 dependency changed is a false statement to say because you were obviously alive.

00:06:38.040 You were living.

00:06:39.120 Well, it seems like there's a different definition of life.

00:06:41.540 Yes.

00:06:41.720 You've got a social, maybe a metaphysical definition?

00:06:45.880 Life is not one dot.

00:06:47.260 It's a many-sided diamond, and that all has to be taken into account.

00:06:52.940 I think scientifically, if we're talking about cellular life, life on Mars or whatever, babies

00:06:58.800 are alive, life begins at conception.

00:07:00.360 But you're making a more spiritual argument, I suppose?

00:07:04.060 I'm saying that bacteria is alive.

00:07:07.820 I'm saying that small cells are alive.

00:07:11.140 I'm saying that human beings are alive.

00:07:13.280 The animals are alive.

00:07:14.820 But there are degrees to where that life becomes something that thinks on its own, decides on

00:07:21.660 its own, chooses what it believes.

00:07:25.460 Is that the threshold for when inalienable rights kick in?

00:07:29.720 When you can think and function for yourself or experience or feel?

00:07:34.820 I think that what it comes down to is that there should not be a legislative force that

00:07:45.400 is making that decision for a woman.

00:07:48.260 That should be her choice.

00:07:50.220 But the question is you have to answer, because I'm pro-choice of many things.

00:07:54.580 I'm speaking as the only female here.

00:07:56.500 You know, I believe women should have the right to choose if they marry, who they marry,

00:08:00.900 you know, what education, sorry, you know, the education, their career, their health care.

00:08:08.380 But I don't think I, as a woman, get to choose whether or not a human being has value or gets

00:08:15.560 to live because it's not, I think that's what has to get answered at this whole like debate

00:08:21.800 level when you start saying, well, I don't think the state should legislate.

00:08:24.560 Well, why do we have laws, right?

00:08:26.620 There's a lot of debate about how many laws we have, you know, overuse of laws.

00:08:32.040 And there's, I mean, that's a serious conversation that we can have.

00:08:35.120 But I think that fundamentally the purpose of government is to create laws and have laws

00:08:41.280 that at the very fundamental level ensure that we have the right to life, liberty, and

00:08:49.080 the pursuit of happiness and to limit others from doing harm to us that prevent us from

00:08:55.400 having life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

00:08:57.920 And so when we're discussing abortion laws and making laws about abortion, we have to

00:09:03.120 be able to answer the question of what is inside of a woman.

00:09:07.600 Is what is inside of a woman just clumps of meaningless cells?

00:09:11.340 Because if there's just clumps of cells and it's not human life, you don't, there's no

00:09:16.760 abortion debate.

00:09:17.840 There's no justification you need to go and have as many abortions as you want.

00:09:23.500 But if abortion is killing a unique human life that as a Christian and as you're a Christian

00:09:31.660 that was created in the image of God, if it's ending the life of a human being, you've just

00:09:36.940 brought religion into a secular debate, which just doesn't hold water.

00:09:43.640 Well, I can make a scientific argument that it's a human being, that it's alive, and that

00:09:48.580 it has value and shouldn't be killed.

00:09:50.700 Because if we start saying that there's different degrees of value of persons, that if you're

00:09:58.700 a born person, you have more value than a pre-born person.

00:10:03.060 Or if you're, you know, taller than a shorter person, or if you're older, more intellectually

00:10:08.520 developed than a younger person, that becomes a very dangerous, slippery slope.

00:10:14.420 I actually think it's the inverse.

00:10:16.100 My view is...

00:10:17.260 I do too.

00:10:17.980 Well, no, I think the scientific argument would lead us to the complete and total banning

00:10:22.920 of abortion nationwide.

00:10:24.060 And the religious argument would actually...

00:10:25.460 Oh, okay.

00:10:26.400 The reason being the concept of ensouling.

00:10:28.620 Are you familiar with ensouling?

00:10:30.540 Like, as in soul, psyche?

00:10:33.940 Yeah, like your spiritual being.

00:10:35.640 Essence of...

00:10:36.140 Yeah.

00:10:36.440 There's a question over when does a human become ensouled and then become an entity.

00:10:41.940 Sure.

00:10:42.380 And if there's a spiritual argument, then the argument is, well, babies aren't ensouled.

00:10:46.180 They're not functioning among themselves, so it doesn't matter.

00:10:49.300 The scientific argument is, however, the qualifications for inalienable rights under the Constitution would

00:10:55.300 be that you are an individual with a unique human life.

00:10:58.760 Therefore, according to the Constitution, the 14th Amendment specifically, your life,

00:11:03.100 liberty, and property cannot be deprived without due process.

00:11:06.180 So the secular scientific argument would ban abortion.

00:11:10.220 Yeah.

00:11:10.420 I mean, I think it's a safer argument, too, because then you go into the question of, well,

00:11:14.040 when does ensoulement happen?

00:11:15.160 And if you're not a religious person, you know, you could debate that.

00:11:19.680 You could say, we have no souls, right?

00:11:21.260 We were just created from nothing, and we have no purpose.

00:11:25.300 But the safest argument to take is, wait a minute, we all know, and science proves,

00:11:30.140 that life begins at conception.

00:11:31.800 That's when your human life began, and you're certainly a member of our species.

00:11:36.560 You're not a koala bear when your mother's pregnant with you.

00:11:40.640 You are a human.

00:11:41.860 You are a member of Homo sapiens, and you're certainly alive.

00:11:46.040 We must protect those individuals.

00:11:48.120 So I'll clarify, too, I have probably a traditionally Democrat, pro-choice, libertarian-esque view

00:11:55.440 of the abortion issue.

00:11:57.280 But the challenges we're currently facing have to do with, say, like Colorado, for instance.

00:12:03.640 They passed a bill a few years ago, zero restrictions whatsoever.

00:12:07.000 That's right.

00:12:07.340 So this means a woman could choose to abort at eight and a half months.

00:12:10.800 That's right.

00:12:11.220 They do that here in Maryland.

00:12:12.740 Maryland?

00:12:13.220 Yeah.

00:12:13.440 I have the abortion clinic's number.

00:12:15.880 We could call them right now and schedule an abortion at 34 weeks if you want.

00:12:19.740 And this is without regard, without reason?

00:12:22.940 I do it all the time on campuses.

00:12:24.440 So the challenge I have with this, maybe you can help me out, Ryan.

00:12:27.860 Yeah.

00:12:28.320 If the baby can survive on its own at eight and a half months gestation, why kill it?

00:12:32.260 I think the question, I still think we need to get to before that and actually put this

00:12:39.560 in a human context.

00:12:41.620 So maybe it will help to share a story.

00:12:44.640 I have a very close friend, mother of three amazing kids.

00:12:50.580 Because between the third child and she was trying to have a fourth child, she got to the point

00:13:05.240 where it was time to give birth.

00:13:07.160 And the doctor came in and said, it's likely that you won't survive this pregnancy.

00:13:12.440 And so a mother has to choose between parenting three children that are already living, that

00:13:20.500 are well into life, and having a baby.

00:13:26.220 This is an impossible situation.

00:13:30.780 And...

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00:14:28.500 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

00:14:34.440 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell

00:14:39.040 our clients that we really care about you.

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00:14:55.340 Did I mention that we care?

00:14:59.500 There is no solution from your side about what to do there.

00:15:05.240 Well, there is actually.

00:15:06.180 So every single state that has a law that prevents abortions, whether in totality or when a heartbeat

00:15:13.380 can be heard or when the child feels pain, there's always an exception to preserve the

00:15:18.200 life of the mother.

00:15:19.660 Now, and when you look statistically at abortion cases, you know, about 1% of abortions are committed

00:15:27.140 to preserve the life of the mother.

00:15:29.400 And then you look at rape and incest.

00:15:31.120 So here's trying to find some common ground with you.

00:15:33.580 Would you say that 97%, you know, because it's like 2% for sexual assault or incest.

00:15:40.280 So that's like 97% of abortions are committed in our country because of circumstances.

00:15:47.160 But the hard question.

00:15:49.280 Are you in favor of joining me and saying those are wrong and those should not be permitted?

00:15:54.900 And then let's have a logical philosophical conversation.

00:15:57.900 It's an interesting pivot.

00:15:59.400 But the real question is for you.

00:16:01.660 Are you saying that you support abortion within certain boundaries?

00:16:07.620 Well, the reason I'm saying it is because I'm asking you because when we have these debates

00:16:14.500 about abortion, this comes up all the time when I'm on campuses, Tim.

00:16:17.760 It's always, well, what about rape?

00:16:19.340 What about the mother's life?

00:16:21.500 I am more than happy to answer that.

00:16:23.180 And I will answer that.

00:16:24.160 But what I find very disingenuous is that when we're talking about abortion, 97% of abortions

00:16:30.340 happen not for those reasons, yet we're being told that we need to keep abortion legal for

00:16:38.040 any reason.

00:16:39.180 And I think if you want to have common ground and kind of stop having part of this conversation,

00:16:44.500 maybe some of the debates, I think a very easy way to start that common ground conversation

00:16:50.020 is to say those other 97% of abortions should not permit it.

00:16:54.420 And then let's have a conversation about the other 3%.

00:16:57.300 Because I think it's kind of disingenuous to always start the conversation of going to

00:17:01.720 the exception to then justify 100% of abortions.

00:17:05.680 I think that everyone in this country agrees on the health exception.

00:17:10.180 Maybe the only people who don't were the Spartans, the women.

00:17:13.720 Well, life.

00:17:14.100 We have to be careful between health and life.

00:17:17.360 Yes.

00:17:17.880 Okay, I agree.

00:17:18.280 Right.

00:17:18.800 I believe you have in your mind a clip from the movie 300 where they're throwing babies

00:17:23.340 off the cliff.

00:17:24.240 Is that what they were doing?

00:17:24.880 Well, in Sparta, this may be wrong.

00:17:29.420 I don't know.

00:17:29.900 I read it on the internet.

00:17:30.260 I think it's true.

00:17:31.280 Yeah.

00:17:31.420 Well, no, the issue is that the only way to get a gravestone marking your death was

00:17:37.700 to be a man who died in battle or a woman who died in childbirth.

00:17:40.580 Okay.

00:17:41.000 So that was like the greatest honor of the woman to die creating life and the man defending

00:17:45.000 it or whatever.

00:17:45.940 No, I think in the United States, everyone's basically like, look, if the mom's going to

00:17:48.880 die, we can't.

00:17:49.640 We have to figure this out.

00:17:51.700 Seamus Coughlin, a friend of ours and the host, he's the creator of Freedom Tunes cartoon

00:17:55.800 show.

00:17:57.180 He's a very devout Catholic.

00:17:58.740 And his view is he doesn't consider abortion an attempt to save the life of the mother

00:18:03.240 that results in the death of the baby.

00:18:04.640 Yes.

00:18:05.020 That's what pro-life OBGYNs would say as well.

00:18:07.280 Right.

00:18:07.740 And so, but I do think the broader term abortion and the legal definition is terminating a

00:18:13.760 pregnancy that results in the baby's death.

00:18:17.320 Or there's a different way to phrase it.

00:18:19.600 There results in loss of life of the fetus or something.

00:18:23.640 That's like the legal definition.

00:18:24.560 So, I think when you look at even the most strict, like Oklahoma, I think, is just basically

00:18:31.680 like no abortion, period.

00:18:33.680 Yep.

00:18:34.320 Doctors can try and save the life of the mother.

00:18:35.760 Absolutely.

00:18:36.060 And if the baby dies, they don't get in trouble.

00:18:36.380 We help write that law.

00:18:37.800 So, the issue that I then have for the pro-life side is why is rape and incest?

00:18:43.820 There are many people who will probably argue right now, even in the chat, and who have

00:18:48.380 argued to me, they don't believe abortion should be allowed even in the case of rape

00:18:51.920 because the baby is innocent and it's the rapist who should be criminally punished, not

00:18:56.860 the baby.

00:18:57.480 That's right.

00:18:58.160 Yeah.

00:18:58.460 So, why then have an exception in law for rape and incest?

00:19:00.680 There's an exception.

00:19:02.280 This is where it's tough for me to wrap my head around philosophically.

00:19:06.520 There's an exception that is made in certain cases, but also the statement that to terminate

00:19:15.940 a pregnancy is universally wrong.

00:19:19.020 And so, those two things cannot sit with one another in any type of system that can be legislated.

00:19:25.380 The thing that is very interesting to me is that the things I believe do not require you

00:19:32.520 to behave a certain way, but the things that you believe require me to behave a certain

00:19:37.680 way to live in a civilized society, there's something about that that is, when I have to

00:19:47.580 choose what you want me to choose in order to partake of the benefits of the system, that's

00:19:57.880 not freedom.

00:19:59.160 Well, I'm not telling you you have to eat chocolate ice cream because I love chocolate.

00:20:02.520 Ice cream or a certain food.

00:20:04.780 We're not talking about chocolate ice cream.

00:20:07.120 We're talking about a human being.

00:20:08.420 What you...

00:20:08.920 You live in this society where we all generally agree that murder, that the intentional killing

00:20:15.860 of a human being is wrong.

00:20:18.320 And there are strict punishments for that.

00:20:20.900 That's one of the things we all kind of...

00:20:22.340 That's a societal contract that we have.

00:20:25.480 But we aren't talking about the same thing.

00:20:28.020 The killing of a human being.

00:20:29.360 You've just taken someone who has been out of the womb for years with another person who's

00:20:34.700 out of the womb for years.

00:20:35.980 So it depends on their age.

00:20:37.240 Murdering another person.

00:20:38.180 So this goes back.

00:20:39.540 This is the whole fundamental debate.

00:20:41.660 Is what is inside of the womb a person?

00:20:44.700 Does that human being in the womb have rights?

00:20:47.840 Because what you just made was an ageist argument.

00:20:49.820 Well, the person who's being murdered in Bethesda, Maryland, or Washington, D.C. has more value

00:20:56.860 because they're out of the womb, their location, and they're older.

00:20:59.160 They don't have more value.

00:21:00.400 They have more agency.

00:21:02.280 There's a difference there.

00:21:03.540 But I don't think agency is a prerequisite for rights under the Constitution.

00:21:07.240 No.

00:21:07.700 It's whether or not you're a person.

00:21:09.140 Correct.

00:21:09.420 But let's bring this back to what it is.

00:21:13.140 If we have a government overseeing this country that follows everything that you're saying,

00:21:21.820 it is a government that continues to tell people how they ought to choose.

00:21:28.060 And if they don't choose, that is backed up by force.

00:21:31.260 I need to pause right there and correct what I just said because there is some nuance to this.

00:21:35.420 There is an agency requirement to be able to pursue life, liberty, and happiness as you see fit.

00:21:43.360 Babies don't commit murder.

00:21:44.540 Well, I mean, they get into disabled people, right?

00:21:46.220 You could say disabled people have less agency, but that doesn't make them less persons.

00:21:50.420 Right.

00:21:50.580 That doesn't make them less valuable.

00:21:52.180 The issue is there are certain rights that you are guaranteed regardless of your agency,

00:21:56.220 and there are certain things we don't let people do if they lack specific agency.

00:21:59.720 That's true.

00:22:00.160 So someone who's got a severe developmental disability, we're not going to give a driver's license to,

00:22:04.160 but a driver's license is not a right.

00:22:05.760 Yeah, but they have a right to live.

00:22:06.800 You wouldn't kill them because you would say you have an intellectual disability.

00:22:09.860 You're not capable of driving without harming yourself or others.

00:22:12.440 Right. In fact, quite the opposite.

00:22:13.760 When there are oftentimes these horrifying stories in the press where a family had like a severely disabled child,

00:22:20.200 and then they kill the kid because they're like, the burden was too great on my family.

00:22:23.860 They go to jail.

00:22:24.620 You go to prison for that.

00:22:25.400 That's right.

00:22:25.660 And there are some stories that are really horrifying where children with severe disabilities die,

00:22:30.420 and the parents get accused of wrongdoing when they were trying to help the kid.

00:22:33.720 That's right.

00:22:34.040 It's horrifying.

00:22:34.880 But anyway, I digress.

00:22:36.560 Where were we?

00:22:37.720 Well, I mean, I think the question is, do you think that we shouldn't have any laws against killing human persons?

00:22:44.700 Is that what you're saying?

00:22:45.780 Because am I imposing my morality on you saying we should have a law that says you can't kill other persons who are innocent?

00:22:52.440 Well, I think it's obvious no one is going to agree with murder.

00:22:55.420 But the question then is, when does murder protection kick in?

00:22:58.660 Maybe I don't really like this certain person.

00:23:01.000 Maybe this person is mean to me and has triggered me and has threatened the life of my family.

00:23:07.560 This is the point, though.

00:23:08.800 I don't think you're going to get Ryan to say murder is good.

00:23:12.260 My question is, is the point of birth the point or a cutting of the umbilical cord the point at which you can now no longer murder or end the life of the human?

00:23:24.540 Is that the issue, I guess?

00:23:26.760 Cutting the umbilical cord?

00:23:28.240 You were saying earlier that the baby is dependent upon the mother, and so someone who is, you know, free of the body and has their own agency, that's a murder.

00:23:39.140 But the baby attached to the mother is not the same thing.

00:23:41.380 So is that the differentiator?

00:23:43.000 What I am saying is that that ought to be the choice of the mother, and it should happen between her and the doctor discussing things, and the federal government shouldn't have anything to do with it.

00:23:57.980 Why do you think I, as a mother, get to choose whether or not the human inside of me has the right to life?

00:24:03.760 Because you get to choose whether or not to create life in the first place.

00:24:07.900 Well, yes.

00:24:09.740 Choosing.

00:24:10.260 Having sex with my husband is a choice.

00:24:12.680 Yes.

00:24:13.000 Right?

00:24:13.560 So your choice really comes at before conception, unless you're talking about sexual assault.

00:24:18.980 Everything is about choice.

00:24:21.100 It's all, you should be free to do what you want to do, and I shouldn't be able to make you choose that.

00:24:30.020 I think that, like what I'm saying, there's a reason we have laws, and there's a lot of questions about what is the role of government.

00:24:38.380 But fundamentally, we should all be able to agree that the main reason we have laws is to protect others from harming others, from limiting our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

00:24:49.480 I mean, think about the issue, I mean, it's not lost on me that we're a few miles from Harper's Ferry, where John Brown's raid was, right?

00:24:58.280 Oh, yeah.

00:24:58.520 It's one of my favorite places to take my children.

00:25:00.680 And his raid HQ is up the street.

00:25:02.280 That's right.

00:25:02.520 You can actually go to his farmhouse.

00:25:03.700 Oh, I might actually do that on the way out.

00:25:05.340 Ten minutes.

00:25:05.620 Think about the issue of slavery.

00:25:08.640 Nobody in our society today says, yes, you can own another person.

00:25:15.160 You can strip another person of their liberty in order to pursue your happiness, your profit.

00:25:22.300 We would all say that that is wrong.

00:25:25.220 And no one would say, well, it's my choice versus your choice.

00:25:28.100 I mean, that was the argument that helped keep slavery illegal.

00:25:31.440 If you don't want to own another person, then you don't have to.

00:25:34.980 You're free to pay your farm labors.

00:25:38.160 But if you want to own another person, you can.

00:25:42.460 Do you see what's wrong with that statement?

00:25:45.540 I think that you're trying to marry slavery and abortion.

00:25:50.720 And let us not forget that for hundreds of years, slavery was spoken of positively as a symbol of status and wealth and doing well in the world.

00:26:03.780 That's what abortion is today.

00:26:05.280 Abortion is talked about as a symbol of wealth and status.

00:26:07.020 But hold on a second.

00:26:08.700 Hold on a second.

00:26:10.960 People took scripture and philosophy and even science and all of the crazy eugenic stuff to say that a person, because of their skin color, was three quarters of...

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00:27:23.180 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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00:27:48.540 Did I mention that we care?

00:27:52.180 Whatever.

00:27:54.320 It's wrong.

00:27:54.860 Three-fifths.

00:27:55.460 Three-fifths.

00:27:55.980 Three-fifths.

00:27:56.520 That was an argument, the slave owners wanted them to be one whole vote.

00:28:01.260 Yeah.

00:28:01.420 And there was the North arguing, you can't have a slave and then also claim they're a free vote.

00:28:06.160 Get out of here.

00:28:06.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:07.280 And Christians, I mean, Christians were leading the force to end slavery because Christians said,

00:28:13.460 this is wrong.

00:28:15.260 You can't change the value of another human being based on their skin color or your science

00:28:21.520 at the time that thinks that their brains, people whose skin is darker, their brains are

00:28:26.520 different than white skins.

00:28:27.660 I think that might be a little bit misinformed because just as many Christians were opening

00:28:32.300 the scriptures and saying that slavery is perfectly appropriate.

00:28:36.320 Well, I mean, all the abolitionists were Christians, right?

00:28:39.600 They weren't actually just even arguing for the end of slavery.

00:28:44.140 They were arguing for temperance.

00:28:45.280 They were arguing for women's rights to vote, right?

00:28:47.280 All the abolitionists were Christians.

00:28:49.780 You're certain that every single one?

00:28:51.660 Most of them were, yeah.

00:28:52.140 I mean, that was the primary...

00:28:52.740 Oh, most of them.

00:28:53.520 Well, that's a completely different statement.

00:28:55.640 They might have been deists.

00:28:56.100 But that was the, you know, the preeminent religion of the day.

00:29:00.900 I mean, but if you think of all of their statements, if you go back and read the statements of William

00:29:05.000 Wilberforce or I was just at Thaddeus Stevens' tomb up in Lancaster, PA, you know, they often

00:29:10.640 said that their Christian faith, their belief in a God and a creator that all man is created

00:29:16.720 equal is what helped motivate them to fight this evil fight, you know, against slavery.

00:29:22.720 So I think it is a fair thing to start having that conversation because what we say in abortion

00:29:29.080 is, well, you know, it may be a human, but it's not a person yet.

00:29:33.900 It doesn't have full agency of their body or it's still connected, dependent on the mother

00:29:39.060 or it hasn't had experiences yet or lots of personal relationships yet.

00:29:46.020 Therefore, it's justified to take their life.

00:29:49.120 That's the thing that you just called the baby it instead of he or she.

00:29:52.720 Well, I was referring to what the argument we hear is.

00:29:55.460 It's absolutely not it.

00:29:56.640 It's a he or she.

00:29:58.000 I was just, sorry, talking in the vernacular that I hear on campuses all the time to justify

00:30:02.880 abortion.

00:30:03.920 Okay.

00:30:04.900 So I have a question.

00:30:06.340 What is it?

00:30:07.880 Is it a baby inside of a mother?

00:30:10.000 Why don't you answer that, Pastor?

00:30:10.920 Is it, is what a baby?

00:30:14.400 What's inside of a mother?

00:30:15.300 When you, when you have a member of your congregation that's pregnant, do you say,

00:30:19.720 congratulations, you're having an it or a clump of cells or, or, oh, what, what's the gender

00:30:24.740 sex of it?

00:30:25.720 Or do you say of the baby?

00:30:27.280 Do you not?

00:30:27.560 I usually say congratulations.

00:30:29.740 Do you call it a baby inside of the womb?

00:30:32.400 I don't know that I ever have.

00:30:34.260 No.

00:30:34.820 Do you call it a fetus or clump of cells?

00:30:37.120 No, I do not tell a pregnant mother, what a wonderful fetus you have.

00:30:44.300 That's just very awkward.

00:30:46.120 That's a weird thing to say.

00:30:48.280 Latin's confusing.

00:30:49.620 Congratulations on your fetus.

00:30:50.820 I see you have there.

00:30:52.340 But the big picture.

00:30:52.660 I mean, you would go to a baby shower if someone invited you, right?

00:30:55.160 Of course I would.

00:30:56.020 I would christen a baby, but.

00:30:59.740 A baby shower happens when she's pregnant.

00:31:01.920 Her baby is not my choice.

00:31:06.220 Hmm.

00:31:07.120 But is it a baby inside of her?

00:31:11.560 Is it a baby?

00:31:12.740 If she chooses to bring the baby to full term.

00:31:16.620 So is the point of birth the point at which we now say, okay, this is now a human with

00:31:22.580 inalienable rights in the Constitution?

00:31:24.400 I think that the mother should choose that in a medical context by asking a medical professional

00:31:31.960 everything as we do with any other.

00:31:33.880 Are you saying that the woman could be pregnant and say, this is a life deserving of rights

00:31:39.500 rights under the Constitution or no?

00:31:41.720 And that the point at which the baby is either.

00:31:44.720 So let's say there's a woman driving in her car and a drunk driver slams into her.

00:31:49.840 She's seven months pregnant.

00:31:51.080 The baby dies.

00:31:52.100 She then says, I choose that this baby was murdered by him.

00:31:55.200 Then they charge him.

00:31:56.840 Should he be charged with two murders or one?

00:31:58.780 Well, my question is, I'm trying to understand at what point do we charge them with murder

00:32:03.040 for the termination of this life?

00:32:05.640 Is it murder only if the baby is born?

00:32:07.960 Charge the mother or the guy?

00:32:09.760 The drunk driver.

00:32:11.280 Right.

00:32:11.480 So, so let's, this is my question, right?

00:32:15.260 You said early on in the show that the baby is attached to the mother has no, it has no

00:32:20.260 agency or less agency and it's dependent upon the mother.

00:32:23.820 So it's the mother's choice.

00:32:25.060 My question is just at what point does the law kick in where, you know what I mean?

00:32:30.080 Like, yeah, I understand.

00:32:32.100 And, and I think it's, you have two people that want two different things, right?

00:32:39.800 Two people with different beliefs about the same thing.

00:32:43.080 And those beliefs cause them to formulate different opinions and make different choices about their

00:32:49.100 life.

00:32:50.140 You have the federal government that has to make laws that will protect.

00:32:57.860 Persons.

00:32:58.420 Um, both of these, all of the persons involved.

00:33:03.340 And so it seems to me that the most logical way to legislate such a thing is to let people

00:33:15.320 make that choice on their own, provided that their choice doesn't cause injury to them or

00:33:21.620 others.

00:33:22.200 But my question is the other, you keep saying others, but you're refusing to acknowledge the

00:33:27.400 child is an other, they're making a choice that causes may cause injury to themselves and

00:33:32.800 will certainly cause injury to an other human being, the child in the womb.

00:33:37.680 By that logic though, it means that in the future we will start.

00:33:44.740 Would a baby that is born in a test tube and a lab environment outside of the body of the

00:33:52.880 mother, is that considered life to you?

00:33:55.800 Absolutely.

00:33:56.520 I think that's going to be wrong when the artificial wombs come.

00:33:59.700 I think it actually will end the entire argument for abortion.

00:34:02.880 The whole, my body, my choice won't be an argument anymore.

00:34:06.360 You know, the last article I read, it was like artificial wombs might be, they might have

00:34:10.100 the first child in an artificial womb by 2026.

00:34:12.340 But that would, that will take away the whole, my body, my choice.

00:34:16.560 That's still a human being.

00:34:17.560 We still have a huge problem.

00:34:19.380 Yes, we do.

00:34:19.840 And that is, you haven't answered, at what point does the law protect life?

00:34:23.960 I think that the mom and the doctor have to make that choice.

00:34:28.480 And then on a grander scale, the country has to come to some sort of a consensus about

00:34:34.360 where the, where that line is.

00:34:36.680 You're saying you, you, you personally, and I, I'm just genuine, honest question.

00:34:40.680 You, you personally don't have a view of at what point a police officer would, would say

00:34:45.240 I'm arresting you for murder.

00:34:46.520 Yeah.

00:34:47.060 Like the Lacey Connor Pearson law, bring up that.

00:34:49.780 If a baby's in a basket and someone walks up and kills it, it's a murder.

00:34:53.680 Yes.

00:34:54.600 If the baby is same, same amount of gestation time, eight and a half months.

00:34:59.260 So there's two women, they're identical twins who get pregnant identically and they,

00:35:05.560 the baby's gestate for eight and a half months.

00:35:08.140 One woman says, or one woman goes to the hospital with, they both go to the hospital at the same

00:35:12.940 time.

00:35:13.620 The doctor says, we're going to induce labor.

00:35:15.360 The baby needs to come out.

00:35:16.500 She gives birth.

00:35:17.120 They cut the umbilical cord.

00:35:18.520 The other baby is still within the womb of the woman, but they are both identically developed.

00:35:24.180 It would be murder for the baby that was, that was prematurely birthed, but it would not

00:35:29.840 be murder for the baby that is still within the womb.

00:35:32.180 This is my question.

00:35:33.000 And you're asking which one of those I would affirm?

00:35:37.080 Well, so I'm trying to understand the, uh, your view of at what point does the law say

00:35:44.300 a murder has been committed, right?

00:35:46.460 So if you, if your argument is a woman and a doctor can choose to terminate the life of

00:35:50.120 the baby, are, are, because the baby is within the mother, my question is then if the baby

00:35:57.380 is identical in every way, but prematurely birthed, is it not protected under the law?

00:36:03.080 So the baby is exiting the womb, correct?

00:36:08.220 Two babies.

00:36:09.160 There's two babies.

00:36:09.880 One is out of the womb and one's in the womb.

00:36:11.720 Right.

00:36:12.060 So it is entirely possible, and probably happens every day, that a baby at eight and a half months

00:36:16.480 is induced.

00:36:17.400 The doctor says, look, we, we think, uh, we, we have to induce premature labor, but the baby

00:36:21.420 can survive on its own.

00:36:22.180 It'll be okay.

00:36:22.840 And the baby is birthed, cut the umbilical cord.

00:36:24.700 It's a healthy, happy baby.

00:36:25.500 What does the mother want?

00:36:28.020 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not talking about what the mother wants.

00:36:30.240 I'm saying, but I'm saying that's the issue.

00:36:32.860 Like that's where we have to get to.

00:36:35.120 Is it the mother participated in behavior that created this process that will end up becoming

00:36:45.140 a human being?

00:36:46.220 Right, right.

00:36:46.440 But my question is not anything related to the mother.

00:36:48.520 Okay.

00:36:48.860 So the baby is, the baby is born at eight and a half months gestation.

00:36:52.420 And then a guy runs in and bashes it, killing it.

00:36:55.280 Sure.

00:36:55.380 Do we charge that man with murder?

00:36:57.820 I think that we would.

00:36:59.340 Yes.

00:36:59.540 Okay.

00:36:59.720 So a woman in an identical circumstance is about to give birth through a premature inducement

00:37:06.260 of labor.

00:37:06.600 And a guy runs in and bashes her stomach, killing the baby.

00:37:09.180 Woman's fine, injured, baby's dead.

00:37:11.200 Is that a murder?

00:37:12.140 Did the woman intend to have the baby?

00:37:14.400 We don't know.

00:37:15.660 Well, we have to know that.

00:37:17.020 But how does the law handle the, the, the, a separate third party's view in this regard?

00:37:24.040 We don't, when, when we're dealing with murder in a criminal court case, we don't ask whether

00:37:28.660 other third parties intended for someone to die or live.

00:37:32.240 We say this person ended person, a ended life of person B.

00:37:35.720 So the question is at what point does the court and the law say this was a murder?

00:37:41.240 You know, so, but, but I think, I think you've actually made it clear that if the mother is

00:37:45.960 in the hospital and says, I don't want the baby and a strange man runs in and bashes

00:37:51.540 her stomach with a hammer and kills it, there's no murder committed.

00:37:54.240 Well, that's actually not true.

00:37:55.500 So in California, they have the Lacey and Connor Peterson law, right?

00:37:58.660 So if she's on her way to the abortion facility, say she's standing outside of the abortion

00:38:03.940 facility in San Francisco, and she was going to have that abortion at eight and a half months,

00:38:09.580 Tim.

00:38:10.100 If she's murdered, someone comes up and puts a gun to her head and shoots her.

00:38:15.060 She and the child die in front of the abortion facility.

00:38:18.340 Whoever shot her, whether it's her husband or just a random stranger will be tried in

00:38:24.120 California with two homicides.

00:38:27.260 In California?

00:38:27.900 Yes.

00:38:28.280 Because do you remember the Lacey and Connor Peterson case in California as the mother?

00:38:32.080 She was in the third trimester.

00:38:33.980 She disappeared.

00:38:34.640 Do you remember that case, Ryan?

00:38:35.660 It was national news in the late, I think it was late nineties, Scott Pearson.

00:38:38.600 It was like, where did Lacey Peterson go?

00:38:40.920 And then it finally ended up with the husband.

00:38:43.480 Oh yeah.

00:38:44.260 So this is, this is how our laws don't make sense.

00:38:46.520 In liberal California that permits abortion uses taxpayer funds to fund abortions.

00:38:52.540 They say it's your right to choose to, to end the life of a human being.

00:38:56.880 But if she's standing outside of the abortion facility, she's shot dead and she and the child

00:39:02.220 die, that murderer will be charged with two murders.

00:39:05.360 But if she walks in the doors of the, of the Planned Parenthood or the abortion facility

00:39:09.740 lays on the table, it's considered a choice.

00:39:12.800 But even though she has already decided in her mind that she's going to kill it, the baby,

00:39:21.520 the fetus, the clump of cells, whatever you're calling it, even though she's already deemed

00:39:26.380 that she doesn't want this child and wants to end it's his or her life.

00:39:30.860 You know, I got an interesting question, right?

00:39:33.320 I got in a lot of trouble with the, the, the pro-choice crowd when I tweeted something that

00:39:37.540 effect, like what if a woman is on the way to an abortion clinic and then she starts giving

00:39:43.160 birth, like what happens then?

00:39:45.500 And they, I got, they got super mad at me for pointing that.

00:39:47.960 I'm just, I'm trying to figure out where the line is.

00:39:50.540 And maybe there isn't one.

00:39:51.280 Pastor needs to answer that because he keeps going.

00:39:53.040 You keep.

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00:41:00.780 our clients that we really care about you.

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00:41:18.520 Keep going back, Pastor.

00:41:21.740 I think he did.

00:41:22.220 I think he didn't answer it.

00:41:23.120 Well, I think, I think.

00:41:24.360 So you think it's only about, so if she's murdered in front of abortion facility, right?

00:41:28.340 She has the appointment.

00:41:29.600 She's going in.

00:41:30.840 She's going to pay someone to end the life of her child.

00:41:33.120 If she gets shot and killed and she and the child die, but she's already decided she's

00:41:37.540 going to kill the baby.

00:41:38.680 Does the murderer get charged with tumors?

00:41:40.320 Do you think that that's right?

00:41:41.580 She's already decided she's going to terminate the pregnancy.

00:41:47.080 You're the one that keeps saying, kill the baby, kill the baby.

00:41:50.480 Well, hold on.

00:41:51.100 This is actually important.

00:41:52.100 I think Planned Parenthood defines abortion as termination of a pregnancy that results

00:41:57.080 in the loss of the life of the fetus.

00:41:58.980 So if the, if the woman's pregnant at eight and a half months, an abortion would be terminating

00:42:04.440 the life of the fetus.

00:42:05.520 And let me, let me also add here.

00:42:07.520 Because you can end the pregnancy.

00:42:08.240 You can end the pregnancy, but not kill a child.

00:42:10.060 It's called a C-section.

00:42:11.280 Let me also.

00:42:12.100 Or induced labor.

00:42:13.280 Let me also add here.

00:42:15.860 We are jumping.

00:42:17.440 I think the phrase eight and a half months has been used.

00:42:20.860 11% of abortion.

00:42:21.980 We're not talking about the eight and a half months.

00:42:24.320 We're talking about the one instance here, this isn't, it's not that we live in a country

00:42:32.280 where pregnant women aren't meeting with a doctor regularly and understanding that they're

00:42:40.120 pregnant.

00:42:40.960 Do you know, I forgot my phone in the other room.

00:42:43.120 I can go on my phone right now and order chemical abortion pills, not having seen a doctor, not

00:42:48.880 having proved that I'm not a rapist, not proving that I'm not experiencing life threatening

00:42:53.040 ectopic pregnancy, and I can order them to any PO box address in the country.

00:42:58.760 There's no woman and a doctor equation.

00:43:01.060 You're using antiquated 1990s language.

00:43:03.860 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:43:03.980 There's no woman and a doctor equation?

00:43:06.660 60% of abortions now are committed with chemical abortion pills.

00:43:10.600 Because of the Biden administration's FDA decision in December 2021, a woman now no longer

00:43:16.940 actually has to see a doctor before she orders chemical abortion, or even the parents or the

00:43:22.660 rapist can order chemical abortion pills online and she doesn't actually even have to see a doctor.

00:43:29.040 That is what the case right now in front of the Supreme Court that's being argued.

00:43:32.240 Because when chemical abortion pills were first approved by the FDA under the Clinton FDA in

00:43:39.160 2000, the FDA put REMS, risk evaluation mitigation strategies on chemical abortion pills, and a

00:43:46.020 black box warning.

00:43:47.040 They do about 70, 80 drugs because of the dangers to the people consuming the drugs.

00:43:51.660 And one of the dangers was they needed to make sure that a woman saw a doctor and at least had an

00:43:56.840 ultrasound before she consumed these pills that end the life of her child.

00:44:01.240 Because if she's experiencing a life threatening ectopic pregnancy, she's not going to be treated for

00:44:07.140 that. Her phlobian tube will still burst, she'll still bleed internally, and she'll still die.

00:44:11.460 If she's RH negative and she doesn't get treated with immunoglobulin before that abortion and after

00:44:17.400 that abortion, her body will form antibodies where she may never be able to successfully carry another

00:44:23.940 child to term ever again. That is why the FDA put REMS on chemical abortion. They took those all

00:44:29.680 away. You don't have to see a doctor now.

00:44:31.180 Are you familiar with aidaccess.org?

00:44:33.280 Yeah, it's an international group.

00:44:34.440 Well, I just Google searched abortion pills and this popped up.

00:44:38.200 This will send you...

00:44:39.760 Yes. You don't have to see a doctor.

00:44:42.440 That's why when Ryan keeps saying it's about a woman or a doctor, that's antiquated pro-choice

00:44:47.700 language from the 90s because more than 60% of abortions, I would probably say next time

00:44:52.500 we get the estimate, it's going to be well over 70% of abortions. Anyone can get these abortion

00:44:58.120 pills. And there's like five different sites, by the way.

00:45:00.200 So your solution would be for no one to have access to those or only through...

00:45:05.520 I'm just saying, I think you don't fully understand how abortions are happening in this country,

00:45:09.580 pastor, because it's not now just about a woman and her daughter. She's not seeing a doctor.

00:45:14.520 But I'm going to a simpler level than that and saying, why not just let the woman choose?

00:45:21.980 Why do you want to create a system where you get to choose for the woman?

00:45:25.920 Because I believe in a country with laws and fundamentally our laws...

00:45:29.800 Do you believe in freedom?

00:45:31.300 Absolutely. I believe in freedom.

00:45:33.340 But freedom...

00:45:33.780 How is freedom you telling what someone else to choose?

00:45:36.400 Freedom is to choose the good, to choose love, to choose the good for others.

00:45:40.600 That's a definition you've made of it. That's not what it is if you look it up in a dictionary.

00:45:45.160 We live in a country with laws where we have the freedom to choose...

00:45:50.560 What does freedom mean if you look it up in a dictionary?

00:45:52.960 We have the freedom to choose lots of things, but you don't have the freedom to choose...

00:45:56.760 Do you know what the word heretic means?

00:45:58.960 Oh, yeah, I do. I'm sitting, yeah.

00:46:01.480 Do you know what the word really means, honestly? Can you tell me what the definition means?

00:46:07.740 Do you want to look up the definition of heretic, Tim, and read it aloud?

00:46:10.540 Well, I mean...

00:46:11.740 Heretic is someone whose beliefs are actually...

00:46:13.880 I'm actually looking at the etymology.

00:46:16.420 Yeah, go to the root of the word.

00:46:18.080 But I don't know if you want to make a point.

00:46:20.140 So if you're trying to make a point...

00:46:21.080 Oh, the definition will make the point, yeah.

00:46:23.700 So do you think...

00:46:24.980 What's your question with heretic?

00:46:27.960 You want to look up the definition of heretic?

00:46:29.700 I'm looking at the screen.

00:46:30.740 From the Greek, heromai.

00:46:33.080 Which is generally accepted.

00:46:35.020 From the Greek origin, heromai, meaning to choose, able to choose.

00:46:40.020 And then from Latin to Old French, heretic.

00:46:42.380 So if you are limiting someone's choices, how can that be freedom?

00:46:51.200 Heresy is colloquially defined as belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious, especially Christian doctrine.

00:46:56.960 Very interesting.

00:46:57.640 Well, I think if we're going to look at heresy, we think about...

00:47:01.560 And I was looking at something you had written in 2022 when Roe was reversed.

00:47:06.060 You said God is a pro-choice God.

00:47:08.460 But yet, when you look at scripture, and I didn't really want to get into religion on this debate, but...

00:47:13.220 I don't want to live in a country, though, where your religious beliefs govern...

00:47:15.640 There's lots of scriptures that say God's not pro-choice.

00:47:18.740 But I...

00:47:19.460 See...

00:47:19.720 That would be a heretic.

00:47:20.720 Your beliefs are religious.

00:47:22.600 That is heretical to Christianity.

00:47:25.100 So I have a question for you, then.

00:47:26.640 My opinions on abortion are based on the Constitution and secular science.

00:47:31.660 I'm not a Christian.

00:47:32.560 I think that the secular argument would force a permanent banning federally of abortion and the religious argument...

00:47:39.640 Does the Constitution speak to abortion specifically?

00:47:42.620 It sort of does.

00:47:43.560 The 14th Amendment...

00:47:44.340 It sort of does.

00:47:45.520 No, see...

00:47:45.880 Right, so this is a question that has to be answered by SCOTUS, but I'll read it for you.

00:47:48.780 Yep.

00:47:49.260 It says,

00:47:50.400 No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States,

00:47:57.140 nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due...

00:48:01.500 Can I finish?

00:48:02.140 Yeah.

00:48:02.280 Without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protections of the law,

00:48:08.020 which would mean the Supreme Court has to answer the question, are unborn persons.

00:48:12.740 That's right.

00:48:13.040 So you notice in 14th Amendment, it starts out by saying citizens, but then intentionally changes it from citizens to persons.

00:48:20.220 This is important, too, because illegal immigrants are protected under the Bill of Rights.

00:48:24.660 Now, a lot of people are upset over the Second Amendment on this one, the argument being they've broken the law,

00:48:29.720 and thus there's a due process restriction on the right to keep and bear arms if you are illegally entering the country.

00:48:34.100 But we do know that people who are not citizens of this country, tourists, good example,

00:48:38.240 they are allowed free speech, they are given the right to a speedy trial, and all of those things.

00:48:41.780 This is why the distinction is important that a state cannot deprive any person outside of citizens of life, liberty, or property.

00:48:49.320 Scientifically, secularly, and under the Constitution, I personally am demanding we get an answer from the Supreme Court as to whether the unborn are persons.

00:48:57.280 It's not been adjudicated.

00:48:59.940 When Roe got overturned initially, I was, along with many people, saying maybe it is better that we take a federalist approach to this because of the conflict and let states decide.

00:49:08.540 However, upon reading the 14th Amendment and then having several debates over this, particularly with my friend Seamus, I said, no, I disagree now.

00:49:16.600 I think the Supreme Court has to answer this.

00:49:18.340 This is not a question for Congress.

00:49:20.160 The Supreme Court very well could come out and say they're not persons.

00:49:22.760 They very well could come out and say they are persons.

00:49:24.480 But this is not a religious issue.

00:49:27.600 This is a question of when are people granted their rights?

00:49:32.420 And so there is a similar, albeit very different, argument pertaining to slavery in that the argument made at the time they were abolitionists.

00:49:42.060 They were, you know, people who were pro-slavery.

00:49:43.760 Most people were neutral and said, I don't care.

00:49:45.820 Leave me alone.

00:49:46.580 But the issue was the argument of personhood.

00:49:50.140 Does the – this is before the 14th Amendment, mind you.

00:49:53.320 When is someone, a person, granted rights under the Constitution?

00:49:56.260 And, of course, the slave owner said they have no rights.

00:49:59.300 They're slaves.

00:50:00.240 They're not protected.

00:50:01.200 The 14th Amendment is written specifically following – 13th and 14th – following the end of the Civil War.

00:50:07.220 And now we have the question of are the unborn persons?

00:50:11.840 Roe v. Wade was interesting in that there was an attempt to answer this.

00:50:16.220 It actually came up as at a certain point in a pregnancy a baby is inviolable.

00:50:23.120 It can't survive outside of the mother.

00:50:25.100 And so this being completely dependent upon the mother's body, there's a question of whether or not that can – we can say yes or no to abortion.

00:50:33.760 However, there is a point that was made about when the baby becomes viable and capable of living on its own.

00:50:39.320 So then where that brings me to in a –

00:50:42.920 When does a baby become able to live – by living on its own, I'm assuming we're meaning breathing and thinking?

00:50:49.880 Not necessarily.

00:50:50.520 I mean I have a friend whose family member is – I hate to be a little crass here but functionally brain dead but alive and capable of ingesting food.

00:51:00.660 It would be illegal to kill that person.

00:51:03.300 So the issue – it's getting particularly interesting especially with technology.

00:51:08.520 If there is a person who is – let's say – I don't know.

00:51:13.180 They have syphilis, right?

00:51:14.520 And they're on the verge of dying from this disease somehow.

00:51:17.900 Well, we have simple antibiotics that can cure them and a doctor that did not do it could be held criminally negligible for something so easily treatable.

00:51:25.400 But that's a technology we didn't have back in the day.

00:51:27.480 So if you go back a couple hundred years, somebody who died of syphilis would say, oh, wow, that sucks.

00:51:31.780 I mean we tried to save them.

00:51:32.920 They drank mercury.

00:51:33.860 It didn't work.

00:51:34.580 And that's what they used to do.

00:51:35.500 That's insane.

00:51:36.200 But, hey, what did they know?

00:51:37.680 So the issue then becomes as technology advances, it becomes capable of preserving the life of the unborn at earlier and earlier dates.

00:51:45.620 Yeah, viability continues to change.

00:51:46.960 Right.

00:51:47.220 So this is a particularly difficult question that I think ultimately under the law and the Constitution, I feel, whether I care like it or not,

00:51:56.500 the inevitable conclusion is a total ban on abortion irrespective of people's religion or anything for two reasons,

00:52:04.400 the constitutional question of the 14th Amendment and the expansion of technology.

00:52:08.600 I think we may find ourselves at a period where the moment a woman gets pregnant, the law will protect that even one day of pregnancy as a life.

00:52:17.000 And then the argument becomes there's no reason to kill it.

00:52:20.500 We'll transfer it to an artificial womb.

00:52:22.620 And that's coming.

00:52:23.300 That day is actually coming.

00:52:24.320 They are, for better or for worse, they are quickly developing artificial wombs because of the issue of surrogacy and the ethical dilemmas that come with the issue of surrogacy.

00:52:33.020 Right.

00:52:33.160 Talking about telling a woman what to do.

00:52:35.060 Two men can hire and rent out a woman's womb.

00:52:37.320 And then if the baby is the wrong gender or has a chromosomal abnormality, they can demand that she then kill the child in her womb, completely eliminating her rights.

00:52:48.360 We chipped a little bit because I do have a question.

00:52:50.580 I assume I know the pro-life answer to this, but I'm curious.

00:52:53.180 Yeah.

00:52:53.860 Down syndrome.

00:52:55.160 So Iceland famously.

00:52:57.340 Said they cured it.

00:52:58.160 Yeah.

00:52:58.400 They, I don't know, cure is the right word.

00:53:00.320 No, they used the word.

00:53:01.360 They used the word cure.

00:53:02.080 But what they do is if they find or believe there's a high probability of Down syndrome in the unborn, they terminate the pregnancy.

00:53:09.780 I'm curious your thoughts on that.

00:53:11.440 I don't understand Icelandic law.

00:53:15.820 I'm not asking a legal question.

00:53:17.060 I'm just curious about the moral position.

00:53:18.280 Should it be legal to kill?

00:53:19.620 Or no, no.

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00:54:43.880 Did I mention that we care?

00:54:47.260 No, no.

00:54:48.560 Just to start off the basis.

00:54:50.080 Moral?

00:54:50.140 Yeah, like what's your view morally of a woman who is pregnant and she finds out that there's a strong probability the baby will have Down syndrome.

00:54:58.340 Is that, and she says, well, I'd like to terminate this.

00:55:01.600 That's the whole point, Tim, is that my, what is my, what do I think the woman should do?

00:55:10.220 Is that your question?

00:55:11.280 No, I'm asking you your thoughts on the morality of terminating Down syndrome people.

00:55:15.280 As a pastor, is it moral to terminate a person with Down syndrome people?

00:55:17.700 The morality is that I don't think it is my right to tell the woman what to do.

00:55:25.020 So even, say, like black babies.

00:55:28.800 What about black babies?

00:55:29.940 Like if a woman found out that she didn't realize, but she found out her baby was part black because the guy she was with was light-skinned and she goes, oh, heavens no, I'm going to terminate that pregnancy.

00:55:40.080 That's morally okay.

00:55:42.320 What the, because of race?

00:55:45.740 I'm saying.

00:55:46.760 Or gender.

00:55:47.140 You look pregnant and doesn't know.

00:55:49.540 Well, right.

00:55:50.020 Yeah.

00:55:50.660 Like I'm saying she, a woman has an encounter and she gets pregnant and then she finds out that the person had a certain amount of a race she didn't like.

00:56:00.320 So she decides to terminate the baby based on its race.

00:56:02.600 I think that.

00:56:03.480 Like there's, there's no, there's no moral issue in regards.

00:56:07.240 Like you would say, I'm asking, would you say that for any or no reason at all, a woman could choose to end the pregnancy?

00:56:15.980 Because the baby's black.

00:56:17.380 Just any reason.

00:56:18.000 Just for any reason.

00:56:18.700 Maybe she doesn't like it because it's a girl and she wants a boy.

00:56:21.000 Or her life is in danger.

00:56:25.460 No, no, no.

00:56:25.620 But we get that.

00:56:26.480 We agree on that one.

00:56:27.500 My question.

00:56:28.120 I think we all agree on that.

00:56:29.400 That's my point is that we all agree with abortion.

00:56:33.840 Yeah.

00:56:34.040 Well, we wouldn't call that an abortion because when you're talking about ends of, you're talking about a life threatening circumstance for a woman.

00:56:40.380 When you talk to OBGYNs who treat women, I actually speak on campuses with a former abortionist who's an OBGYN in Northern Virginia in the DMV area.

00:56:50.560 It's, it's not considered an abortion, the direct intentional killing.

00:56:54.820 It's a fetal maternal separation and you may have to birth the child earlier than you want.

00:57:01.580 You, you keep the woman safe in throughout the pregnancy.

00:57:05.660 You give the child, you know, every chance to grow, especially their lungs to develop.

00:57:10.940 You'll probably give the mother steroids to try to quickly develop the child's lungs.

00:57:15.120 You have the NICU there.

00:57:16.600 You birth the child and you hope.

00:57:19.000 And if you're a religious, you pray that the child has the medical technology to survive.

00:57:23.340 That is fundamentally different than intentionally saying, I'm going to choose to kill you.

00:57:27.720 Because everyone agrees we don't want moms to die.

00:57:30.360 Exactly.

00:57:30.640 The question is, uh, I understand the pro-life position very much.

00:57:34.740 I think most people do.

00:57:35.560 That's why I don't, don't really have more to elaborate on what you're saying.

00:57:38.280 Cause you, you were saying preserve the baby at any cost we can to try.

00:57:42.400 We get it.

00:57:42.940 If the, if the mother's life may be lost, we'll try to save her.

00:57:45.120 On the pro-choice side, I'm trying to understand if there are any moral issues pertaining to it.

00:57:51.280 So there's a few degrees.

00:57:52.840 There's a woman for literally any stated reason can choose to enter pregnancy.

00:57:57.380 That is her choice.

00:57:58.140 Would you, is that something you agree with?

00:57:59.620 I don't know.

00:58:01.620 I'm not the woman.

00:58:03.280 But I'm not asking you for a woman.

00:58:04.600 I'm saying.

00:58:05.580 But that's a.

00:58:06.420 You don't have to be a woman to answer that question.

00:58:08.660 Right.

00:58:08.820 We have votes.

00:58:09.580 I think you might.

00:58:10.920 So, but, but the answer is quite simple.

00:58:12.620 I would say then.

00:58:13.520 I think you are answering it.

00:58:14.780 Yeah.

00:58:14.980 If a vote was presented saying women have the right to choose to get an abortion whenever, you would vote yes.

00:58:21.340 Even if the baby has Down syndrome.

00:58:22.360 No, no, no.

00:58:22.720 Just, just, just generally speaking, you would vote yes.

00:58:25.080 That vote is not extended to me.

00:58:27.140 That's not the way the system works.

00:58:28.660 But it literally is, though.

00:58:29.640 We have referendums.

00:58:30.700 We have, and we have politicians who come out.

00:58:33.380 Politician, Democrat says women should get abortion if they so choose.

00:58:36.980 Would you vote for them for that reason?

00:58:38.400 Of course.

00:58:39.200 But it's not just, their candidacy isn't just abortion.

00:58:43.700 It's all of the other things, and that is the issue, is that we make who we're going to vote for just about abortion or not.

00:58:50.920 Right, right, right.

00:58:51.440 But this is.

00:58:52.060 Well, it's kind of a fundamental question.

00:58:53.120 Do you think you have the right to kill another human being?

00:58:55.140 If you can't answer that question correctly, I don't want to.

00:58:56.280 But we're arguing the morality of specifically one particular issue, as it is under the law, without, you know, the Supreme Court not having answered the question of personhood as it pertains to this.

00:59:05.800 So, yes, it is in law.

00:59:07.420 Why is the law what it is right now?

00:59:09.400 So, but I suppose then what you're saying is you abstain from that vote.

00:59:13.100 Is that what you're saying?

00:59:13.540 No, I'm saying that the reason we're having this discussion is because we live in a democracy, and our choices, our votes, the things we are passionate about or opposed to, our country is a reflection of people who participate in the political process.

00:59:32.660 I'm going to get.

00:59:33.060 And the reason that this is.

00:59:34.880 In this state right now is because people are continuing to voice what they believe in.

00:59:44.080 And one of these things will win out in the future if democracy functions as it should.

00:59:50.060 I'm going to help everybody listening right now, because I already know people are saying we're not a democracy.

00:59:53.900 That's right.

00:59:54.340 Sure.

00:59:54.720 We are a constitution.

00:59:55.240 We're a republic.

00:59:56.280 We're a constitutional republic.

00:59:57.440 But what people need to understand is our form of governance is known as liberal democracy.

01:00:03.120 That's right.

01:00:03.600 So, it's like we just need to draw the distinction between are we talking about the broad system of a constitution with rights?

01:00:10.360 This is called liberal democracy.

01:00:11.640 But our form here is constitutional republic.

01:00:14.220 Yes.

01:00:14.700 In the nuance.

01:00:15.240 We place our votes in people who then go and vote for us.

01:00:19.660 Right.

01:00:19.960 So, my question is, I'm trying to figure out your moral position on a question.

01:00:26.560 I'm trying to say it starts with me and how I choose and how I vote.

01:00:32.660 Do you think Jesus would say that?

01:00:34.360 Hang on a second.

01:00:36.740 My vote is one vote amongst millions, right?

01:00:40.520 And so, hopefully, our system, the way that it works is all of the opinions are heard, and then the majority that votes a certain way is the way that the whole ship ends up going.

01:00:55.520 That's why we are where we are.

01:00:56.940 Right.

01:00:57.180 So, my question is, when it comes to your vote, you are saying you have no opinion on whether women do or don't get abortions or whether it is or isn't legal.

01:01:07.360 I'm saying that I doubt my own, what I experience in my life as a male.

01:01:21.680 I have no intimate personal experience with what it feels like, what it is emotionally to me.

01:01:33.520 Do you think women who are married can't vote on abortion either?

01:01:34.820 I'm trying to figure out a moral position.

01:01:36.820 So, I'm trying to understand.

01:01:40.320 I don't know how to keep asking the same thing.

01:01:42.540 Are you saying you would not vote on the issue?

01:01:46.180 On abortion?

01:01:47.840 Yes.

01:01:48.140 Yeah, the ballot referendum in Maryland this fall.

01:01:50.100 A question.

01:01:51.200 Should women be allowed to get abortions of their own choosing?

01:01:54.900 Would you either not vote?

01:01:56.480 Would you vote yes or would you vote no?

01:01:57.480 I think that women should be allowed to have abortions.

01:02:00.400 So, in November, ask him about the ballot referendum.

01:02:03.280 I also want to clarify by saying that the reason that I come to that conclusion is because it's the only conclusion that allows everyone to choose.

01:02:15.520 If you go to the other side, it means that someone's choice is restricted because of maybe even a religious opinion.

01:02:24.820 That doesn't sound very American to me.

01:02:27.400 Just for those that are listening, Kristen, to explain why I'm asking, early on, you made your position very clear.

01:02:33.840 Yeah.

01:02:34.240 We want to preserve the life at any cost, all life, be it black, brown, Asian, Down syndrome.

01:02:39.260 Because it's equally valuable.

01:02:39.720 I don't think, Ryan, you've given us a clear answer of your position.

01:02:44.140 I'm trying to understand where we are because it's hard for me to suss out what the debate is if I don't know what your moral position on abortion is.

01:02:52.400 I'm trying to say that I think a woman should be able to choose what she does with her body so that 200 years from now, our society hasn't devolved into the handmaid's tale.

01:03:04.540 You're a pro-choice for all the COVID vaccines.

01:03:06.980 For what?

01:03:07.680 COVID vaccines or vaccines for children before they enter grade school.

01:03:11.520 That's a choice.

01:03:12.620 We shouldn't deny children entry to kindergarten if they don't have their MMR.

01:03:15.380 Well, let's just make the question simple.

01:03:17.640 Does choice pertain to all medical decisions, in your opinion?

01:03:22.140 For women, men, everybody?

01:03:23.760 Everyone.

01:03:24.560 Everyone should be able to choose what they want to do medically.

01:03:26.920 So no one should be forced to have to take the COVID vaccine.

01:03:29.900 I think that what people put in their bodies should be up to them, yes.

01:03:34.060 So when it came to vaccine mandates, you opposed requiring vaccines of people to...

01:03:40.080 Or people losing their jobs for not taking it.

01:03:42.060 No, because being opposed is making...

01:03:43.980 I think people should have the choice.

01:03:46.240 People should be able to choose.

01:03:47.220 So people shouldn't have lost their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine, right?

01:03:50.700 That's what freedom means.

01:03:51.780 So the question then is, just trying to find the moral position here, was it wrong for

01:03:57.080 the government to mandate people get a medical treatment?

01:04:00.520 To get the COVID vaccine?

01:04:02.480 Or lose your job.

01:04:03.240 Yes, but any medical treatment.

01:04:04.580 And not about losing jobs, just mandate in general.

01:04:06.480 What would be another example of medical treatment?

01:04:09.260 Like what?

01:04:09.900 Someone gets resuscitated against their will?

01:04:13.520 Mandated medical treatment.

01:04:14.580 Castration.

01:04:15.000 Medical castration.

01:04:15.900 It's, it's, it's, okay, so, we'll slow down.

01:04:20.360 There are specific, and there's narrow and there's broad.

01:04:24.600 Broadly speaking, forced medical, mandated medical treatments would be, does a person,

01:04:31.660 this is meant to encompass, a woman gets pregnant, should she be required under state

01:04:38.680 law to maintain the pregnancy?

01:04:41.220 Someone who is not vaccinated, should they be required under state law to get that vaccine?

01:04:44.660 This is what I mean by mandated medical practices.

01:04:47.200 No, I think that both of them should be allowed to choose.

01:04:50.840 Right, okay.

01:04:51.300 Yeah, that's simple.

01:04:52.580 Yeah.

01:04:53.040 Every question that you have about any of these issues is, I think people should be able to

01:05:00.560 make choices about their life, and they shouldn't be, provided, provided that my choice about

01:05:08.380 my life doesn't infringe upon your own freedoms or your own ability to choose.

01:05:13.420 Well, that's the whole point, Pastor, about abortion, is women have freedom, women can

01:05:20.140 choose, but when your freedom and your choice ends the life of another living human person,

01:05:27.300 that's when there's limits.

01:05:27.520 But the life that they're producing isn't your business.

01:05:30.840 That's their business.

01:05:31.860 I actually, I actually agree.

01:05:32.720 That's actually not true.

01:05:34.240 But it is.

01:05:35.020 You weren't there to help them get pregnant, right?

01:05:37.380 So I actually agree with the pastor on the question of choice.

01:05:40.720 My view on abortion is libertarian, secular, scientific, but it does preclude abortionist

01:05:47.380 contraception, which is the overwhelming majority of abortion.

01:05:49.980 Yeah, that's right.

01:05:50.220 So in the issue of rape, and I've gotten to great arguments with pro-lifers about this

01:05:55.020 who completely disagree.

01:05:56.480 I believe that the rape and incest exception violate the moral tenets of the pro-life movement.

01:06:02.100 It makes no sense to say that a baby is alive and its life should not be taken, but because

01:06:06.460 of the circumstances of their conception, they can be terminated.

01:06:10.880 It doesn't change the child's value.

01:06:11.860 I disagree with that.

01:06:12.560 However, from a secular constitutional perspective, I do not believe the government has the authority

01:06:19.220 to mandate a woman who never consented to giving her body to someone else be forced

01:06:24.080 to carry that life, which creates a simple row-ish kind of answer.

01:06:32.500 If I were on the Supreme Court, I'd say abortionist contraception is unconstitutional.

01:06:37.160 The idea that a woman would consent to allow life into her body and then seek to terminate

01:06:42.340 it is selfishness.

01:06:47.500 Well, it's unconstitutional.

01:06:48.500 If you agree to give your body to another person or open the door for that and then create

01:06:56.120 a nine-month dependency or slightly less between six and nine months and then decide to terminate

01:07:01.100 that life after you're coming into this consensual agreement, well, that's now you violating

01:07:05.920 the life rights of this other being.

01:07:08.780 Post-viability, the question is actually quite simple.

01:07:11.280 If it can be avoided and a pregnancy can be terminated without ending the life of the

01:07:18.280 child, then there's no reason to end the life of the child.

01:07:21.160 So you think that abortion in cases of sexual assault, the one to one and a half percent

01:07:27.520 of abortions are committed for sexual assault?

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01:08:27.760 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:08:32.180 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients

01:08:37.440 that we really care about you.

01:08:39.320 We care about you.

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01:08:44.800 Weird.

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01:08:53.200 Did I mention that we care?

01:08:57.680 Can't be prevented.

01:09:00.040 That should be allowed to remain legal if Tim's on the Supreme Court, if you're justice, Tim.

01:09:04.820 If I were a justice, my ruling would be if a woman is raped,

01:09:09.780 then she is allowed to get an abortion.

01:09:12.460 That is a non-consensual invasion of her body.

01:09:15.940 Even though it's still a person inside of her.

01:09:18.240 If someone is forcefully placed into my, if a child is forcefully put in my home,

01:09:22.960 the state has no right to mandate that child live in my house now.

01:09:26.300 I say, no, that's not how it works.

01:09:27.700 If I consent to adopting a child into my home and then throw the kid outside and say,

01:09:32.920 you're on your own, that's illegal.

01:09:34.480 It's a crime.

01:09:35.420 I know that it's a difference because, you know, as pregnancy, my point is if a woman

01:09:39.760 consents to allow a pregnancy in and then says, I tried to not let it happen, I did

01:09:45.800 this or whatever, but I got pregnant anyway.

01:09:46.960 I say, well, that's a choice you made.

01:09:49.420 And then they say that's sexist because men don't experience that.

01:09:52.720 It doesn't matter.

01:09:53.900 It's not material to a consensual decision you made that results in life being dependent

01:09:58.920 upon you for nine months.

01:10:01.060 So the bigger question beyond this is, I don't understand the left argument, and I don't think

01:10:09.020 there is one.

01:10:09.960 There isn't.

01:10:10.360 As to why post viability, you would kill the baby.

01:10:14.400 If a woman says that I don't want the pregnancy, I want to terminate it, you could say, we will

01:10:20.320 terminate this pregnancy, keep the baby alive, and then give the baby up for adoption and

01:10:25.220 find a good home for them.

01:10:26.300 But there are still people that, the pro-choice side say, no, if she wants the baby dead, it's

01:10:31.580 her choice.

01:10:32.100 And I just, I can't wrap my mind around that.

01:10:33.920 That's why I want the pastor to answer.

01:10:35.160 So in Maryland, where you live in November, there's going to be a ballot referendum.

01:10:38.540 On the ballot in Maryland is a constitutional provision that would allow a woman through

01:10:43.340 any stage in pregnancy for any reason to choose to end the life of the child.

01:10:48.460 Are you going to vote yes to put that in the Maryland constitution?

01:10:51.820 Any stage in pregnancy?

01:10:53.120 Up to the moment of birth.

01:10:54.700 All nine months for any reason.

01:10:56.300 So as long as the body of the baby is inside the vaginal canal, that's what we're talking

01:11:02.740 about?

01:11:03.700 Yes.

01:11:04.260 Inside of the womb or inside of the vaginal canal.

01:11:06.660 Are you going to say, are you going to vote, Brian, pastor Ryan's going to vote?

01:11:10.320 Yes.

01:11:10.660 Are you going to vote?

01:11:11.260 Yes.

01:11:11.540 Oh, I've answered all these questions.

01:11:13.680 My answer is, I think that the mother should be allowed to choose.

01:11:17.660 So you're going to vote yes to put abortion up until the moment of birth in the Maryland

01:11:20.980 constitution.

01:11:21.620 I'm going to vote.

01:11:22.540 Yes.

01:11:22.880 To allow a mother to choose, to choose abortion.

01:11:25.380 So you keep using the word choose to choose abortion because the law is whether or not

01:11:31.500 a woman should or anyone should have the choice to end the life of another human being.

01:11:36.980 Right.

01:11:37.180 But there is a difference between Ryan's individual opinion and a collective of people

01:11:43.000 voting together.

01:11:43.980 So that that's the way it's supposed to work.

01:11:46.860 Why don't you just let it work that way?

01:11:48.780 Well, because when our country was founded by Christians and deists, it was very clear

01:11:54.060 in the declaration of independence, right?

01:11:55.960 Who believed in slavery.

01:11:56.980 That there was life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

01:12:01.460 That those were these fundamental freedoms that every human person was granted, not by

01:12:07.820 a king or a tyrant or by government, but by a creator.

01:12:12.380 So you're, you're sent, you're using happiness as a gauge?

01:12:16.640 Well, no, usually a lot of times now when you hear pursuit of happiness, it's pursuit

01:12:19.920 of profit or livelihood.

01:12:22.100 Well, what do you think it is?

01:12:23.440 But it's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

01:12:25.280 The first of those rights and those fundamental freedoms is life.

01:12:26.840 What about the happiness of the baby?

01:12:29.440 What about the happiness of the mother?

01:12:30.860 That's a great point.

01:12:31.800 But there's a, there's a reason why those rights were listed in that order.

01:12:35.720 Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

01:12:38.540 Life is the fundamental right.

01:12:40.080 Any choice that denies someone the fundamental right, that's not really a choice that should be

01:12:46.140 legal because you're denying someone else's life.

01:12:49.720 Like when you talk about abortion, there's a conflict of rights.

01:12:53.380 Life is birth or life is a span?

01:12:57.040 Human life.

01:12:58.060 Human life.

01:12:58.500 Is it a span of life and a quality of life?

01:13:01.440 Birth isn't life.

01:13:01.940 Birth is something that happens to all human beings.

01:13:04.940 That's exactly my point.

01:13:06.180 You're alive before birth.

01:13:08.140 Not everyone is born, but everyone dies.

01:13:11.320 Let's get that clear.

01:13:13.060 Birth does not happen to every human being.

01:13:15.600 No, that's, yeah, yeah, we, we know that, but that would, that would also imply that

01:13:21.260 all human beings are alive, whether they're born or not, everything dies and everything

01:13:25.180 must be alive.

01:13:26.040 So we know that what's inside of the mother is a living whole independent entity that's

01:13:32.120 self-directed.

01:13:33.100 But we don't know that because we're having this conversation is my scientists, biologists

01:13:38.240 have confirmed this national Institute of health studies, the university of Chicago study

01:13:43.120 where they interview biologists, 90 some percent of whom are pro-choice and democratic.

01:13:47.420 But my point is this, the same scientific minds and institutions created a document that

01:13:56.660 said a person with different skin color was three-fifths of a man.

01:14:00.680 That was science, right?

01:14:02.280 No, but you're, no, that wasn't the three-fifths compromise was, that was democracy.

01:14:06.180 That was the representative Republic.

01:14:07.880 That's the, that is why when you make this argument of like, well, you're going to tell

01:14:11.160 me that there is no literature anywhere in the whole, hold on a second, in the whole

01:14:18.960 of human history that talks about people with different skin colors being a subspecies.

01:14:25.080 The Nazis did it, right?

01:14:26.540 Joseph Mangula did it.

01:14:27.540 So let's get really, really, and let's, and we'll get specific, we will clarify this.

01:14:33.420 The three-fifths compromise was the Southern slave owners believing that each slave should

01:14:37.620 be allowed one vote because that would give them a larger population and they could dictate

01:14:41.300 those votes.

01:14:41.880 The North said, that's not fair.

01:14:44.200 You have dominion over these people.

01:14:46.060 So they would just be voting for you.

01:14:47.560 So we won't give them any votes.

01:14:49.440 And what comes before that though?

01:14:51.100 How do people arrive at this?

01:14:53.140 Right.

01:14:54.160 So my, my, my point is the three-fifths compromise was actually the slave owners were trying to

01:14:57.460 claim that slaves were persons.

01:14:58.820 And the North said, you can't, the abolitionists said, you can't claim their persons and deny

01:15:04.480 them rights.

01:15:05.100 And that's how it gets sorted out and in democracy.

01:15:07.700 But I'm talking about the people.

01:15:09.220 Just because people vote for something, does that make it right, Pastor?

01:15:12.140 I'm talking about people that, uh, believe that people of a different skin color are a subspecies.

01:15:21.260 I don't, I don't know if, uh, subspecies as, as a, as a, as a blanket of the problem of

01:15:27.260 racism, I don't know so much that it's subspecies, but that, uh, the, the, the core element of

01:15:34.020 like racial first order thinking is better than regardless, or, uh, like a lot of the racism

01:15:40.740 we see today is actually rooted in believing that there's collectivist elements of race

01:15:45.500 that are causing problems to other races.

01:15:47.080 I couldn't agree with you more, but we're not talking about racism today.

01:15:51.580 We're talking about racism, about this document that we all subscribe to.

01:15:59.800 We got there because of science.

01:16:02.560 People believed that black people are people of color.

01:16:06.880 I actually don't think science is what turned the tide in the fight, the moral fight against

01:16:11.280 slavery.

01:16:11.620 It was a moral, it was a moral fight.

01:16:13.720 If you look at William Wilberforce and how Wilberforce in great Britain became this champion

01:16:18.740 for the abolishment of the slave trade, it wasn't science.

01:16:22.180 They didn't present him with scientific documents.

01:16:24.860 No, he met former slaves.

01:16:26.480 I think he met human beings who had been tortured.

01:16:29.500 More of the words of people in that time period.

01:16:32.880 If you would see the things that they say about people of color that have us wrong, that have

01:16:39.300 the science of their time to support it.

01:16:42.440 They weren't making scientific arguments.

01:16:44.100 They were making immoral arguments.

01:16:45.700 My point is that the view, the white colonialist view of the Chinese, for instance, was negative,

01:16:52.220 despite the fact that the Chinese were a thousand years more advanced in technology and science

01:16:57.020 than the white colonists.

01:16:57.960 So it's not so much that their view, it was more racial in-group extremism.

01:17:04.980 But I agree with you when it comes to slavery, they believe certain races were lesser and weaker

01:17:09.820 and, you know, things like that.

01:17:10.940 I mean, do you think the institution of my neighborhood should be abolished?

01:17:13.240 I'm trying to make the point that this is how societies come to a tense consensus on things,

01:17:21.260 is that the very scientific system you're talking about that points toward,

01:17:26.760 we ought to do this from a scientific level, it's not religious.

01:17:31.280 That's the same science that supported slavery until people said, this is just wrong.

01:17:36.580 You think the biologists who claim and verify that human life begins at conception

01:17:41.160 are the same scientists who would say that African Americans aren't full humans?

01:17:46.720 No, that's not what I'm saying.

01:17:48.160 I'm saying the fact that...

01:17:49.440 You think science is going to prove me wrong in 50 years,

01:17:51.760 that there's going to be new studies that come out and say,

01:17:54.260 oh, we were all wrong.

01:17:55.820 All of these biologists were wrong.

01:17:57.540 It wasn't human life.

01:17:58.740 You don't know what science will be like in 50 years.

01:18:02.220 It's definitive.

01:18:02.880 It's definitive.

01:18:03.300 Human life begins.

01:18:04.780 I would open the door to...

01:18:06.780 I mean, we don't know what science is going to discover.

01:18:09.300 For all we know, science discovers the actual ensoulment process.

01:18:11.940 And then we're like, wow, you can see the point at which the soul enters the body.

01:18:15.420 Who knows?

01:18:16.140 Yeah, but we're talking about life, though.

01:18:17.700 My views might drastically shift at that point.

01:18:22.740 But that's not where we are.

01:18:24.980 Now, this is interesting.

01:18:26.520 So you're saying...

01:18:27.340 Are you saying ensoulment...

01:18:28.840 If we could prove when ensoulment happens, you might change your views on abortion?

01:18:33.560 I might.

01:18:33.820 I don't know.

01:18:34.080 But you're not going to change your views on abortion,

01:18:36.060 even though science proves that it's a human life.

01:18:39.380 You're telling me science proves that?

01:18:42.240 Yes.

01:18:42.460 You look at the biological markers of what is a lie.

01:18:45.100 You're not citing anything.

01:18:46.340 Oh, my gosh.

01:18:46.940 Here, let's bring up.

01:18:48.180 What's the biological markers?

01:18:50.120 But I just need to pause real quick.

01:18:53.380 That's an absurdity.

01:18:54.560 I mean, Kristen, you don't even need to say science proves it.

01:18:58.760 It is...

01:18:59.780 The idea that conception happens has been functionally known since the Bronze Age.

01:19:06.080 I was reading the Koran the other day, and it talks about the birth of...

01:19:10.480 It's been known before there was any age.

01:19:11.940 Yeah, exactly.

01:19:13.160 Like, the idea that conception creates life is just...

01:19:17.680 It's settled.

01:19:19.600 It's not even...

01:19:20.400 There's no science had to prove it.

01:19:21.840 We know.

01:19:22.800 The issue is the point at which life is given its rights.

01:19:28.880 Yeah.

01:19:29.120 And so the pro-life argument is the point of conception.

01:19:31.680 The pro-choice argument is it's different based on the individual.

01:19:36.280 And that's the challenge in finding the moral position.

01:19:38.600 But typically, among the pro-choice side, there is no consensus at which point life rights

01:19:43.460 come into play.

01:19:45.020 For example, Vosch, who's a prominent socialist leftist commentator on Timcastle IRL, said,

01:19:50.640 I asked him, when does life begin?

01:19:52.340 He says, some point after birth.

01:19:55.060 So there's no consensus among the pro-choice side at which point there are life rights.

01:19:59.600 Yeah, and Peter Sanger, I mean, he is, I would say, a very consistent pro-abortion

01:20:05.820 philosopher Princeton has openly said there's no difference between the child moments before

01:20:12.780 he or she is born and the child after he or she is born.

01:20:16.080 All has changed his location.

01:20:17.500 The child is still wholly dependent.

01:20:19.560 And so he actually...

01:20:20.300 Is there a relation?

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01:21:19.840 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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01:21:29.540 that we really care about you.

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01:21:45.300 Did I mention that we care?

01:21:49.380 Not to Margaret Singer, no.

01:21:51.100 It's ironic though, right?

01:21:52.220 Because she was also a eugenicist.

01:21:54.520 But originally he had argued that parents should have the right up to two years after birth

01:22:01.500 in order to euthanize their child.

01:22:03.600 And now he's come down to say, well, maybe it's around three months.

01:22:08.140 That's a consistent pro-choice, I would say, opinion on that.

01:22:12.460 Are you familiar with the statements of former Governor Northam in Virginia that sparked

01:22:17.740 a lot of controversy a few years ago?

01:22:19.540 About woman's right to choose?

01:22:21.700 Play the clip.

01:22:22.160 He said, yeah, I'll pull the clip.

01:22:24.840 Play that clip.

01:22:25.000 But I don't want to put headphones on, but I'll play it.

01:22:30.240 Let's see if we can just find it.

01:22:32.620 Yeah, it's shocking.

01:22:34.020 Let's see.

01:22:34.540 Division, enrichment.

01:22:36.560 It's always hard because...

01:22:38.060 It's the one he's on the radio.

01:22:39.200 I know, but you basically get...

01:22:41.320 I did a commercial with it.

01:22:42.240 News articles all alter the context.

01:22:44.620 There's two actually out of Virginia that are really good.

01:22:48.220 Isn't it the late-term abortion bill one?

01:22:51.200 Type in radio interview.

01:22:52.120 The problem with these, these are news segments about it, not his actual...

01:22:55.040 Type in radio and see if it comes up because it was a radio.

01:22:57.740 Right.

01:22:59.880 It might be this.

01:23:02.080 Okay, you see what they do?

01:23:03.360 It's super annoying.

01:23:04.280 So annoying.

01:23:05.500 Chapter 4 or Chapter 3, it's like responding to critics.

01:23:10.880 So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen.

01:23:17.260 The infant would be delivered.

01:23:19.340 The infant would be kept comfortable.

01:23:22.020 The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired.

01:23:26.780 And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.

01:23:31.120 So I think this was really blown out of proportion.

01:23:34.760 So unless we go through the hour-long, the general context was the, I believe this was

01:23:40.080 a response to the late-term abortion bill.

01:23:43.540 Virginia's late-term abortion bill.

01:23:44.600 This is, do you remember the positive, was it?

01:23:46.640 It was Kathy Tran.

01:23:47.600 Kathy Tran, okay.

01:23:48.440 I always confuse her with someone else.

01:23:50.780 She was arguing to, I believe it was a judge.

01:23:53.440 I think we can play the audio here.

01:23:54.960 Late-term abortion bill, Virginia.

01:23:56.400 I'll Google for you.

01:23:57.360 The controversy first started from this video.

01:24:00.360 Delegate Tran defending her bill that would loosen abortion requirements in the Commonwealth.

01:24:05.680 Through the third trimester.

01:24:07.020 The third trimester goes all the way up to 40 weeks.

01:24:09.360 Okay.

01:24:09.800 But to the end of the third trimester?

01:24:11.700 Yep.

01:24:11.900 I don't think we have a limit in the bill.

01:24:13.360 Right now, late-term abortions are allowed under Virginia law.

01:24:16.740 If three physicians certify the pregnancy substantially and irremediably, threatens the woman's life

01:24:22.900 and health.

01:24:23.800 Tran's bill would only require one physician to certify the abortion and removes the substantially

01:24:29.100 and irremediably requirement.

01:24:31.440 Facing harsh backlash, Governor Northam went on a radio show.

01:24:34.960 So basically the bill would, as Tran clarified, I believe it was a judge.

01:24:40.880 He asked if the woman is in labor.

01:24:42.640 Yep.

01:24:42.920 The baby is being born.

01:24:44.660 And the life of the mother is in fact.

01:24:46.060 No, they removed that.

01:24:47.220 Oh, that's what they took out.

01:24:48.180 Right.

01:24:48.400 Okay.

01:24:48.800 And only one physician just deems it necessary for some reason.

01:24:51.920 So instead of what was formerly three?

01:24:53.940 Three physicians and substantially and irredeemably, I think it would say.

01:24:58.920 Irrevocably or something like that.

01:24:59.960 Yeah.

01:25:00.720 And so the argument that was brought up was, your bill removes these restrictions and would

01:25:06.340 allow a woman who is in labor with the baby breaching for them to terminate the life

01:25:11.900 of that baby and end that.

01:25:13.040 And she said, there are no restrictions.

01:25:14.860 Northam's response was, the baby would be delivered, kept comfortable, and then a discussion would

01:25:20.940 ensue.

01:25:21.920 Most people took that to imply, he's saying, they would then decide whether the baby lives

01:25:25.260 or dies.

01:25:26.120 Yeah.

01:25:26.200 We, so the pro-life response was, that is a, that is a, it is after birth abortion, I

01:25:32.460 believe the term was.

01:25:33.480 In fact, Democrats killed the bill.

01:25:35.440 We tried to amend the federal Infant Born Alive Protection Act in the U.S. Senate saying,

01:25:41.780 if you are a physician that refuses to treat a child who is accidentally born alive during

01:25:48.700 abortion, you should face criminal punishment because you've refused to resuscitate or call

01:25:54.060 EMS or do CPR.

01:25:56.560 Do you, do you think that's how would you want to fix that then?

01:25:59.520 What would you do to say if a baby's born breathing, you resuscitate it.

01:26:03.700 You call EMS, it's a human life who's struggling to live.

01:26:07.700 And here is my, and here is the, the big thing we're really talking about here.

01:26:13.500 You feel that way.

01:26:15.820 I feel a certain way.

01:26:17.700 Tim feels a certain way.

01:26:19.560 There is only one way that we can make what we want to happen, happen.

01:26:27.420 And that is for you.

01:26:28.040 Do you think that's immoral?

01:26:29.020 That is for you to get involved in the political process.

01:26:32.900 Why aren't you running for something?

01:26:36.200 Well, actually I run a 501c4 as well as a 501c3 and I'm very much involved in the political

01:26:42.360 process, writing legislation, passing laws, influencing politicians to actually be leaders

01:26:49.260 and to do what they say they're going to do.

01:26:51.640 And those laws have actually saved baby's lives.

01:26:55.580 And all that I'm saying is, so I am involved in the, that's the way that it's supposed to

01:27:00.100 work and it's wonderful that you're involved in that work.

01:27:03.860 What is not wonderful is that I don't see it that way.

01:27:09.140 Do you think it's more of a baby to die?

01:27:11.240 Hang on a second.

01:27:12.560 Let's say on point here.

01:27:13.580 What is not okay with me is that your way of believing about this requires me to make

01:27:24.480 a choice.

01:27:26.040 My way allows you to live your life and do what you want to do.

01:27:30.380 You're forcing your beliefs on me.

01:27:32.260 You're forcing your belief that a human in the womb doesn't have value and should be killed.

01:27:37.720 No, I'm not.

01:27:38.560 I don't see a secular difference between your position on abortion or slavery.

01:27:44.400 There isn't.

01:27:45.520 I don't have, I think that government should be secular.

01:27:49.520 Right, right.

01:27:49.720 What I'm saying is.

01:27:50.380 Do you think the government's wrong to pass a law banning slavery?

01:27:53.040 So my point is, when it comes to the question of who is a person and who is not.

01:27:57.480 Yeah.

01:27:58.680 Scientifically speaking, babies are humans.

01:28:02.700 Slaves, people who are enslaved, were humans.

01:28:04.960 Right.

01:28:05.240 Your argument is people have a right to choose.

01:28:07.740 I don't understand the moral difference.

01:28:09.880 A woman choosing at eight months to terminate the life of the baby versus a person choosing

01:28:15.520 to claim dominion over another person is just denying personhood rights of a human being.

01:28:20.080 Because when we start eroding anyone's right to choose, we actually end up in the long term

01:28:26.140 undermining our entire republic.

01:28:29.520 Right.

01:28:29.640 My point is, I don't understand how that's a different argument for, I don't see how

01:28:34.640 that's not a pro-slavery argument.

01:28:37.380 Okay.

01:28:38.060 Yeah, because what if I have the right to choose to own slaves?

01:28:41.660 Can I have the right to choose?

01:28:42.860 You don't have the right.

01:28:43.940 The Emancipation Proclamation.

01:28:44.580 Well, how dare you take away my freedom and my rights to choose?

01:28:48.140 The Emancipation Proclamation didn't end slavery.

01:28:49.380 Don't you see what's wrong with that statement?

01:28:50.380 It made slavery illegal.

01:28:51.720 No, it didn't.

01:28:52.280 Well, it wasn't actually enforceable.

01:28:53.480 It didn't.

01:28:54.500 The Emancipation Proclamation declared that states that were in rebellion would, the slaves

01:28:59.260 who were in those states would be emancipated, but slaves within union states were still

01:29:04.320 slaves.

01:29:04.880 That's right.

01:29:05.260 If you're in West Virginia, they were still slaves.

01:29:06.660 And even under the 13th Amendment, slavery is still legal in this country.

01:29:09.660 It just requires due process.

01:29:12.060 Okay.

01:29:12.300 So the issue I see is, I'm looking at this from a secular scientific perspective under

01:29:19.260 the Constitution.

01:29:21.300 Babies, born otherwise, are human life.

01:29:23.940 It's just, it's human DNA.

01:29:25.580 It's a unique set of DNA.

01:29:27.340 The agency is a question.

01:29:28.600 Do they have the agency?

01:29:29.340 Do they not?

01:29:30.520 Slaves were obviously human beings.

01:29:32.620 No one debates that, but that's a question that was answered through war.

01:29:36.720 Because at the time, the argument was made, people had a right to own other people.

01:29:40.980 But that's how it was around the world.

01:29:42.300 In fact, to this day, there's more slaves than there's ever been.

01:29:45.060 So if the argument is, a woman has a right to choose whether a baby who can survive on

01:29:49.280 its own lives or dies, I don't see a functional scientific difference in that argument from

01:29:54.260 a person has a right to choose dominion over another person.

01:29:56.880 A baby who can survive on its own lives or dies.

01:30:00.540 Right.

01:30:00.860 So whether it can survive or not on its own is...

01:30:04.460 Oh, that's why my position is not the traditional pro-life position.

01:30:07.480 It's more of the like 90s Democrat pro-choice position.

01:30:09.800 It would not be...

01:30:10.980 Now, this isn't my personal opinion, but just to play devil's advocate here, can a baby

01:30:18.540 really survive on its own?

01:30:20.920 Can a human?

01:30:21.920 A single human can't.

01:30:22.780 No, that's what I'm saying.

01:30:24.180 Right.

01:30:24.520 But you couldn't...

01:30:25.080 We're all dependent on each other, Pastor.

01:30:26.180 Yeah.

01:30:26.620 Right?

01:30:26.740 Wait, toddler's dependent on its parents and newborn.

01:30:29.160 You on your own in the woods would die in like a week.

01:30:32.420 No, but I know what you mean.

01:30:34.300 You would.

01:30:34.580 Like, even the best survivalists, you have to be pro-top-tier level understanding.

01:30:41.640 Like, okay, do you know the process by which you find food in a fruitless forest, right?

01:30:47.000 Do you know...

01:30:47.240 Just as a baby?

01:30:48.580 And my point is this.

01:30:50.020 Certainly a baby is dependent on someone to provide food for them, but so are you.

01:30:53.780 If you as an adult human male were placed in the woods, isolated from society, you would

01:30:57.780 die.

01:30:58.200 You'd likely die of exposure in 48 hours.

01:31:00.920 Then why are humans here?

01:31:02.800 Because humans work together and are dependent upon each other.

01:31:05.220 There's varying degrees of dependency.

01:31:06.900 I don't think a question of dependency determines your life rights.

01:31:10.680 So you're saying that a baby that has just come out of the womb is experiencing the same...

01:31:18.740 I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

01:31:20.760 However, you're saying that an adult human in the woods for a week is the same thing

01:31:28.380 as an infant that can't speak or see yet.

01:31:34.080 Those are the same challenges.

01:31:36.360 So a blind person who doesn't know English is...

01:31:38.540 No, I'm saying that a baby is more dependent.

01:31:41.820 From a secular perspective, outside of any religious or spiritual arguments, you do not need to

01:31:47.220 think, see, hear, or speak a language to have constitutional rights to be protected from

01:31:51.980 people murdering you.

01:31:53.520 However, there are varying degrees of dependency and capability.

01:31:56.800 There are people who are expert survivalists, but the average person would die on their own.

01:32:01.260 Humans are social beings.

01:32:02.540 That's why we fear ostracization and being shunned so much.

01:32:06.080 So the argument that a baby would die without support is, sure, maybe in two days on its

01:32:13.600 own, then there's no chance the baby is going to get up and go hunt.

01:32:16.980 An adult human, male or female, might last a couple days longer if they can find water

01:32:21.760 and food.

01:32:22.400 But on average, humans would not be able to do that.

01:32:25.380 So an adult would live longer.

01:32:26.680 But then it really just comes down to a totally biological energy argument of humans can waste

01:32:33.600 away and burn off the excess calories and eat their muscle mass more than a baby can.

01:32:38.260 Certainly, there's some humans who are smart enough to figure out how to find a water source,

01:32:41.920 how to build shelter, avoid death from exposure.

01:32:44.520 The average person can't do that.

01:32:46.260 Babies obviously would just never overcome that.

01:32:50.080 But my point is, dependency does not determine your right to live or die.

01:32:54.700 So the issue then becomes, the argument that a woman can choose, that a baby is denied personhood

01:33:04.880 and the mother can just choose, even though the baby can survive on its own, she can choose

01:33:08.720 to end its life.

01:33:09.700 I don't see a functionally scientific, I don't see a functional difference scientifically

01:33:14.080 between that and arguing some people are not people and other people have a right to

01:33:18.600 control them.

01:33:19.180 It's the same argument.

01:33:20.160 But that's not what it comes down to is what I feel is right and what you feel is right.

01:33:26.740 And I'm saying-

01:33:27.580 Yeah, the slave owners thought it was right to own slaves.

01:33:28.900 Yes.

01:33:29.600 Do you not believe that there is right and wrong for some issues?

01:33:32.760 And we had to fight one of the bloodiest battles in the history of the world to stop people

01:33:35.840 who were wrong because the idea that we would, through a political process, stop people from

01:33:40.560 owning other people, it wasn't working.

01:33:42.440 And so John Brown, and I do not like John Brown, but he was-

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01:35:14.520 He was on the right side of ending slavery, though he was a disgusting person who went

01:35:18.460 and shot a guy in the face for no reason, led terror campaigns against people.

01:35:22.480 But the reality was the political process was not ending slavery.

01:35:26.220 Abraham Lincoln's position wasn't even anti-slavery.

01:35:28.860 He was trying to defend slavery in the Union, but stop its expansion to the new territories.

01:35:34.860 That resulted in war.

01:35:36.660 Or I should say it resulted in secession, which then provoked the North declaring war to maintain

01:35:42.240 the Union.

01:35:43.540 I know the religious arguments, but I really feel like the religious arguments actually

01:35:47.640 opened the door for abortion.

01:35:49.120 Because it makes an argument about ensolment and that question.

01:35:52.300 Well, that opens our door for does the human have value?

01:35:55.900 And so that's, you know, what we see on campuses now increasingly in a secular Gen Z culture,

01:36:00.760 which is actually very sad.

01:36:02.560 And it speaks to some of the challenges we're having in this culture is I will ask students

01:36:06.920 themselves, back up.

01:36:08.880 Let's stop talking about a baby that you don't know and you don't have a relationship to.

01:36:12.840 Do you, as an adult, a 20-year-old, have value?

01:36:16.060 Because I'm arguing that the child can have, does have value simply because of what it is,

01:36:21.660 what member of our species, it's a member of our species.

01:36:25.300 And young people don't even know that they have value.

01:36:29.180 I think the question for you, Pastor, is, are you saying you don't believe that there

01:36:33.480 are some things that are always morally wrong?

01:36:37.120 And there are some things that are always, like, do you believe that there is right and

01:36:40.840 wrong for some things, right?

01:36:42.100 Do you believe that?

01:36:43.200 I believe that morality is obviously something personal, that I have my own moral code, that

01:36:51.260 I believe inside of myself.

01:36:55.700 I believe that morality, societally speaking, and I think that history shows this very clearly,

01:37:03.040 is that morality is relative.

01:37:06.660 Wow.

01:37:08.220 History shows, you said?

01:37:09.960 Yeah.

01:37:10.340 That's a really shocking statement to come from a Christian pastor.

01:37:13.720 The ways that we have, the book of Leviticus teaches that if a man lies with another man,

01:37:21.720 as a man does with a woman, that he should be put to death.

01:37:25.740 This was at one time in the history of human beings affirmed as a good law, and people confirmed

01:37:33.420 that in their consciences, as did people with slavery, but we learn, we gather more information,

01:37:41.480 we change our opinions.

01:37:43.800 That's the beauty of being a human being.

01:37:45.860 History is a great example that subjective morality is a really bad idea.

01:37:49.980 No, I think morality is both universal and subjective, meaning there are subjective morals

01:37:54.980 and universal morals.

01:37:55.780 Natural law versus the laws of man, I understand.

01:37:58.960 This is a natural law argument.

01:38:01.000 The golden rule, for instance, finds an iteration in almost every society.

01:38:04.700 Yes, it does.

01:38:05.080 So there certainly is something to humans that we share, but then there's cultural,

01:38:10.620 like, sub-moral issues where they begin to change.

01:38:14.380 Yeah.

01:38:15.400 This is why legality matters.

01:38:17.240 This is why voting on abortion and having that discussion in the political sphere matters,

01:38:21.700 because for some people, legality determines their morality.

01:38:26.280 We saw immediately in the polling, after Roe was handed down by seven men, that viewpoints

01:38:31.780 on abortion immediately changed, because suddenly seven men had deemed it to be legal.

01:38:36.980 Therefore, people who originally had thought it to be immoral started to shift their opinion

01:38:41.500 on abortion.

01:38:41.920 But what would you do better?

01:38:43.100 How would you, show me the system that you would set up that would work better than it is.

01:38:48.720 What would the government look like?

01:38:50.780 This is great.

01:38:51.680 This is a vision statement.

01:38:52.940 Excellent.

01:38:53.940 So our movement, as a pro-life movement, seeks to make abortion unavailable, so illegal,

01:39:01.020 but also unthinkable.

01:39:03.620 Because we understand that just because you pass a law making something unavailable or wrong,

01:39:09.580 I mean, we have speeding laws that we all violate every day, right?

01:39:13.340 It doesn't stop us from always acting poorly.

01:39:17.460 So laws can stop and will stop people from choosing abortion, even a pro-choice thing tank.

01:39:22.540 No, they won't.

01:39:24.080 Actually, yeah.

01:39:24.500 So there's stats.

01:39:25.380 So in November, this November, a pro-choice think tank put out a number saying that they

01:39:30.100 believe at least 32,000 babies who have otherwise been aborted are alive.

01:39:35.080 The New York Times just had an article recently about how far women have to drive to obtain

01:39:40.340 abortions and how the birth rate in Texas went up 5.1%.

01:39:44.340 I think in Mississippi, it was like almost 3% because women were having, it was longer

01:39:49.400 to get to an abortion.

01:39:51.200 How did you get those stats?

01:39:51.920 Well, that was the New York Times.

01:39:53.200 Forbes is reporting.

01:39:54.180 No, but I'm saying, what about all the people that might have done something you disagree

01:39:59.340 with legally and didn't let anyone know?

01:40:01.940 Well, what I'm saying is this is why laws aren't the only way.

01:40:05.480 We can't end abortion simply by passing laws, but it's one way because it certainly, certainly

01:40:12.480 saves lives and we have the statistics to prove it.

01:40:14.820 But then we start into a question of how do we make abortion culturally irrelevant and

01:40:19.640 an unthinkable option, an unthinkable thing, just like how we did with slavery.

01:40:24.200 And that's a fun discussion to have.

01:40:25.400 So you want to control what people think?

01:40:27.600 We want, well, yes, I want people to think that killing an innocent human who's completely

01:40:33.380 defenseless is, is a wrong.

01:40:35.980 I would agree.

01:40:36.720 I think we want people to think like slavery is wrong.

01:40:39.280 Yeah.

01:40:39.780 You know, back in the day, they thought it was right.

01:40:41.040 It's like, we wanted to change that cultural perception and say, you can't do that.

01:40:43.980 We did.

01:40:44.580 And now I don't think there's like a single public speaking individual who would defend

01:40:48.740 the idea of slavery, despite the fact more than half the country, you know, it resulted

01:40:52.900 in a civil war.

01:40:53.600 The reality of the civil war era was that most people just did not care at all.

01:40:58.600 I mean, that's what we have today.

01:40:59.860 You had slave owners, which was like 5% of the population and abolitionists, which was

01:41:04.220 equally small fighting.

01:41:05.500 And most people were like, we don't care about the rest of the...

01:41:07.560 Well, what did Martin Luther King Jr. say?

01:41:08.740 He said, the laws can't make men respect me, but it can stop men from lynching me.

01:41:14.280 So the laws are important.

01:41:15.940 They're an important cultural tool that we have in making abortion unthinkable, but that's

01:41:20.240 not the only option.

01:41:21.000 I'd love to have these conversations of what do we need to change in our culture to make

01:41:25.680 abortion unthinkable option?

01:41:26.900 For example, we need to stop allowing our universities to discriminate against pregnant

01:41:32.520 and parenting students, something that I fight for, something which the Biden administration

01:41:36.260 has just made infinitely harder with reversing the rules on Title IX just a week or so ago.

01:41:42.180 We need to actually pass expanded child tax credits.

01:41:45.760 We need to ensure that there's paid family leave.

01:41:47.820 We need to ensure misogynist SEOs don't prevent women from bringing their newborn children

01:41:53.300 into the workplace or allow them to, God forbid, store their breast milk in a refrigerator in

01:41:59.020 the workplace and breastfeed openly.

01:42:01.580 We need to reject that prejudice and we need to transform the culture.

01:42:05.500 You want to change it quick.

01:42:07.100 You just make it so that any business aligned with the pro-life movement asks a woman if they've

01:42:12.340 ever had an elective abortion.

01:42:13.600 It doesn't hire them if they did.

01:42:14.540 That will trigger every single pro-choice person having said that, but the issue with culture...

01:42:21.520 I want to see where you're going with this one.

01:42:22.960 Well, that's where I'm going.

01:42:23.980 The idea being that if people feel that there is a cultural risk that they will be shunned

01:42:28.000 or ostracized, they refrain from certain behaviors.

01:42:30.500 Yeah, we're using a lot of terminology about laws making people do things.

01:42:36.020 I think it's more honest to say laws deter people from doing...

01:42:40.300 People can still do the thing.

01:42:42.260 Sure.

01:42:42.700 You know what makes something unthinkable is if...

01:42:45.800 The reason why people are scared of posting jokes and racy tweets or whatever is because

01:42:51.540 they're like, I will get fired from my job.

01:42:53.280 That's the only thing I really care about.

01:42:54.580 And so if a social issue comes to the point where people won't work with you ever again...

01:42:59.280 Take a look at the Israel condemnation letter.

01:43:02.860 It was signed by a bunch of students at some Ivy Leagues and then Bill Ackman and a bunch

01:43:07.980 of billionaires said, we have all banded together to say, none of you will ever get a job at

01:43:12.720 any of our companies.

01:43:13.720 And what did they do?

01:43:14.480 They all issued apologies because that's what they really feared.

01:43:18.640 The question...

01:43:19.620 I'm not literally suggesting businesses do this.

01:43:21.400 I'm sure I'll take it out of context.

01:43:23.700 What Ron Paul said was it should not be illegal.

01:43:26.260 It should be unthinkable.

01:43:27.480 There are many things that we used to do that we no longer do because it would be unthinkable.

01:43:32.320 There are a lot of people who want to do really weird, nasty things and they don't because

01:43:37.020 they know it would destroy their lives if they did.

01:43:39.160 But there are a lot of really awful things.

01:43:40.820 I mean, the really easy, obvious one is slavery.

01:43:43.260 And now no one in this country is on the pro-slavery side.

01:43:47.040 Although I shouldn't say no one.

01:43:48.420 There are probably some weirdos somewhere.

01:43:49.500 I think you have to fight for both because we know morality does follow the law.

01:43:55.400 And so many people...

01:43:57.240 I disagree with that.

01:43:58.540 I don't think that's true, but I think that's what people think.

01:44:02.320 So we have a lot of people in our culture today who they derive their morality from what the law says.

01:44:09.820 And I think that's a very dangerous situation.

01:44:11.320 I don't know.

01:44:12.180 I disagree completely.

01:44:13.200 People don't even know what the laws are.

01:44:15.360 Well, I mean, I think when something is made legal, people then tend to think, well, maybe it's okay.

01:44:21.580 Maybe it's terrible.

01:44:22.320 And you can look at the statistics on people's views on abortion before 1973 and after 1973.

01:44:29.600 But whether or not something is legal doesn't make it immoral or immoral.

01:44:33.060 No, absolutely.

01:44:33.580 I totally agree with you.

01:44:34.620 What I'm saying is that most people believe that their morality follows the law, that they derive their morality from what's legal.

01:44:41.420 And I would say that's wrong.

01:44:42.860 That's why the pro-life movement says we have to make abortion an illegal and unobtainable thing.

01:44:50.040 Because, one, not only will it save lives now, it will change minds or cause people to give pause to is whether is that an actual good or moral decision if it becomes illegal.

01:45:02.100 That's why the left was enraged when Roe versus Wade was reversed.

01:45:05.280 Because when you ask their own statisticians, they'll say, well, I mean, Planned Parenthood's annual report two weeks ago came out.

01:45:12.000 They're now committing more abortions than ever before.

01:45:14.300 They ended the lives of 392,000 little baby girls and baby boys with $700 million in our taxpayer funds.

01:45:21.800 Their abortion business is booming in a post-Roe era because they prepared for post-Roe.

01:45:27.560 So a lot of people in the pro-choice side will say, well, Roe didn't end abortions.

01:45:33.660 Abortions are still happening and some places are happening more.

01:45:36.720 Why are they all pissed off that Roe versus Wade was reversed?

01:45:40.280 Because they understand culturally when you change the law, we will now have a generation of kids, which this hasn't been really studied by social scientists, and I think it's going to be fascinating.

01:45:50.060 You're going to have kids like my own children who are going to grow up in a state where abortion is unavailable.

01:45:55.760 And that's going to shape these young kids, this whole generation's mind abortion.

01:46:00.040 They're going to get to college.

01:46:00.940 Like my kids are going to get to college, be in a cafeteria or dorm room, having a discussion with somebody from California, and hopefully my children are aghast to learn that their roommate or their friend comes from a state where it's legal to kill children.

01:46:15.540 That is why the pro-choice side was upset about Roe versus Wade.

01:46:20.020 Wasn't that because Roe versus Wade was gone because abortions are still happening.

01:46:23.920 It's that this is the law, and the law not being there is going to change people's minds because many people derive their morality from legality, but they shouldn't.

01:46:33.160 I have some questions for you.

01:46:34.420 Do you believe abortion is murder?

01:46:36.260 I believe it is killing.

01:46:37.900 The question is murder is, but yes, the question is the intention of the mother, right?

01:46:42.700 You've referred to it as murder more times than killing in this very discussion.

01:46:47.240 Well, yeah, I mean you can say it's murder because I know what you're killing a human being.

01:46:50.220 Do you personally believe it's murder?

01:46:52.200 Yeah, I think it's wrong.

01:46:52.920 So the intentional killing of another human is the legal definition.

01:46:56.320 Do you believe that people have a right to use lethal force in the defense of themselves or others?

01:47:03.260 Like if someone's invading your home?

01:47:05.740 If someone points a gun at you and says they intend to kill you, do you have a right to use any force up to including lethal to defend yourself?

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01:48:11.700 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:48:15.860 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you.

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01:48:37.140 Did I mention that we care?

01:48:41.580 Yes, but I think you'd be very careful with that because I would say if someone pays your home,

01:48:45.700 shoot them in the leg, don't shoot them in the head.

01:48:46.920 Oh, so there are complicated degrees.

01:48:49.060 Well, no, it's because it's a human being.

01:48:50.300 You should treat respect for human beings.

01:48:52.960 So if someone is threatening your life, you have a right to defend yourself.

01:48:57.280 Simple.

01:48:57.980 If you came upon a person who was threatening to kill another person, do you believe you have a right to use lethal force to stop that murder from occurring?

01:49:07.800 No.

01:49:08.560 That's actually still self-defense law.

01:49:10.100 Self-defense law, defense of others.

01:49:12.180 I don't think I could pull that trigger.

01:49:13.700 But you don't think people have a right to do that, to save someone else's life?

01:49:16.640 I think it would depend, right, of what sort of situation we're talking about.

01:49:20.040 If someone's trying to kill my child.

01:49:22.580 There are two people.

01:49:24.120 One is intentionally going to kill the other, actively trying to.

01:49:27.440 They're shooting and they're missing.

01:49:28.560 You can shoot that person to stop them from shooting your child or your neighbor.

01:49:33.200 It's not your child.

01:49:33.820 It's literally anyone.

01:49:34.600 The law in most states is very clear.

01:49:37.880 Self-defense is an affirmative defense when killing someone if that person was either going to kill or cause great bodily harm.

01:49:44.500 If the outcome of it is, yeah.

01:49:45.600 Serious great bodily harm or death of you or another.

01:49:48.140 So the question I have, but I think you've basically already answered it, but this question gets into the question of law, which is why I was asking these.

01:49:55.780 You're on a jury and there's a man who's being charged with murder.

01:50:00.100 And the case is that he was walking down the street and stumbled upon a doctor about to give a woman an abortion who, and the woman was at nine months and it was clearly definitive.

01:50:13.980 And the doctor was laughing saying, I'm now going to kill this baby.

01:50:17.120 The man goes, no, and then shoots the doctor.

01:50:19.620 He's now charged with murder.

01:50:21.340 Would you on that jury acquit the man who shot that doctor?

01:50:24.200 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a, you would definitely, I would say that you wouldn't need to use lethal force in that case.

01:50:32.020 Why would you need to use lethal force?

01:50:33.220 That's not the question.

01:50:33.980 Would you acquit a man who was charged with murder?

01:50:35.580 So the answer is no.

01:50:36.180 You would say go to prison.

01:50:37.060 You shouldn't have shot him.

01:50:37.880 Yeah, you shouldn't have shot them, no.

01:50:41.160 So what?

01:50:42.080 I mean, I'm, some pro-lifers have different opinions on this.

01:50:45.420 I don't believe in the death penalty, right?

01:50:47.660 I'm against capital punishment.

01:50:49.340 The Supreme Court.

01:50:50.000 The reason why lethal force, you don't really have a choice when it comes to, you have a gun.

01:50:58.320 You always have a choice.

01:50:59.760 If you stumble upon an abortionist in open air who's getting ready to abort a child at nine months, I have a choice and I can choose to shoot the abortionist in the head or I can choose to shoot the abortionist in the hand or a leg.

01:51:11.700 That's not true at all.

01:51:13.960 Why don't I, why wouldn't I have a choice?

01:51:16.420 You do not have a choice.

01:51:18.080 I can choose to call the police.

01:51:21.020 Yeah, you can let them, you can let them do it or you can aim for center mass.

01:51:24.480 Why am I having to aim to kill in your scenario?

01:51:27.260 There's no scenario where a person who's armed with a gun can just choose to disarm or disable a person.

01:51:32.820 It's a myth.

01:51:33.600 And this is typically used by anti-gun groups to say that police officer should not have shot center mass.

01:51:39.760 There is no scenario where you can safely aim for a leg or a hand without putting other people at risk.

01:51:44.820 Well, you would have to prove intent there, right?

01:51:46.080 You would have to improve what was my, what my or whoever's intent was at that point.

01:51:51.020 For what?

01:51:51.360 Were they shooting to kill?

01:51:52.440 Were they shooting to stop?

01:51:53.240 There's no such thing as shooting to kill or stop.

01:51:55.280 You shoot someone in the leg, you could hit a femoral artery.

01:51:57.080 You aim for their shoulder or whatever, you could hit their carotid.

01:51:59.640 The law also doesn't try to govern intent.

01:52:02.360 It's, it's governing what happens after you intend something.

01:52:06.140 No, we do do intent.

01:52:06.360 No, intent is a requirement.

01:52:08.060 Like, we have homicide laws and manslaughter laws.

01:52:10.600 Okay, try is the wrong word, but the law cannot govern intent.

01:52:15.760 It cannot make me want something or not want something.

01:52:19.020 No, but intent is a requirement.

01:52:20.100 It can impose penalties that make me change my views on the thing.

01:52:24.080 But again, that is...

01:52:25.520 You're saying you can't change someone's intent.

01:52:26.960 You can't change what someone thinks or believes.

01:52:30.500 So the question here is, and the reason I asked this, typically when I talk to pro-lifers,

01:52:37.180 they are unwilling to say that they view the killing of a baby and the killing of a person

01:52:42.560 as equal.

01:52:44.240 I hear a whole lot from pro-lifers that abortion is murder.

01:52:47.740 Then I ask basic questions.

01:52:49.600 There have been a lot of people who have chatted, who have super chatted and said unequivocally,

01:52:53.940 if a person was shot a doctor to save the life of a baby, it's self-defense, no question

01:52:59.200 asked.

01:52:59.540 But almost all of the personalities and public commentators, political commentators who I've

01:53:03.640 asked, they always refuse to say yes.

01:53:06.580 They always deflect and say, for some reason, it is not the same.

01:53:11.320 And I think it was Dennis Prager who pointed this out, who is pro-life, that clearly because

01:53:15.960 of this...

01:53:17.120 He's in most circumstances, not at all.

01:53:19.260 But he said...

01:53:20.240 I had an interesting conversation with him on my podcast.

01:53:22.260 I think he said this.

01:53:23.080 I think he said that the argument that you see then from the pro-life is that they clearly

01:53:27.440 do differentiate between an abortion and a murder.

01:53:30.420 It's not the same thing.

01:53:31.760 There are degrees.

01:53:33.120 Well, I think it also depends.

01:53:34.280 Like, you think about the IVF experiment, right?

01:53:36.760 The IVF thought experiment that was rampant online.

01:53:39.200 Like, oh, we have found the thing to trip up pro-lifers.

01:53:42.120 And the thought experiment, I don't know if you've ever heard it, Pastor, is that you're at

01:53:46.380 an IVF clinic and it's on fire and inside are a thousand humans in embryonic form and test

01:53:53.920 tubes and there is a young child.

01:53:56.900 And who do you save?

01:53:58.240 And most people would say, I'm going to save the toddler.

01:54:01.320 And so when people say that, they go, aha, you then don't actually believe that the human

01:54:09.200 and embryonic form is the same as a toddler.

01:54:12.100 And I don't actually think that is true because I think there's a lot of circumstances to that.

01:54:16.400 One, I would hope if I were in that situation, I would try to do everything I can to save both.

01:54:23.400 There's also different challenges there.

01:54:25.460 Is the toddler my toddler or those 10, you know, humans in embryonic form in a test tube?

01:54:31.780 Are those my children?

01:54:33.780 Because that could change something, right?

01:54:36.080 Because that could say, wait a minute, those are my children.

01:54:39.060 I don't want this toddler to die, but those humans in embryonic form are my children.

01:54:43.840 I want to save them.

01:54:44.900 So some things that will change will depending on the relationship.

01:54:48.520 There's also the thing of, and the philosophers have talked about this, of like you recognize

01:54:53.280 yourself, right, in that toddler, you know that that toddler is going to experience pain

01:54:58.420 and that the toddler is afraid, that the toddler is crying.

01:55:01.260 It doesn't mean that the humans in embryonic form and the test tubes are less than human,

01:55:05.540 but you also know that those humans aren't experiencing pain where the toddler is.

01:55:10.500 And you're trying to reduce human suffering as much as you can.

01:55:14.000 So I think it's, I think there's a lot, the reason it's hard to answer the questions

01:55:18.660 because I think there's a lot of questions that then come up from your analogy.

01:55:22.340 I don't, I don't think that the IVF question of the fire in the burning building actually

01:55:26.060 even answers the question of abortion at all.

01:55:27.860 I think they're completely unrelated.

01:55:29.060 Well, I'm sorry, I get asked all the time.

01:55:30.640 No, I know.

01:55:31.180 It's, and, and, you know, my response, that would be like a single baby in the womb and

01:55:36.700 a, and a child in a room are more comparable to then a bunch of embryos in a freezer.

01:55:41.400 Well, humans in embryonic form.

01:55:43.120 Humans in embryonic form in a freezer are functionally distinct from.

01:55:46.480 I've tried to really stop using the word like embryo because it's, we use it how we use the

01:55:51.160 word fetus and we use these terms, which are stages that you, in your life, you didn't

01:55:56.420 come from an embryo or fetus pastor.

01:55:58.440 You once were one, but yet we use these terms to kind of like mentally separate ourself from

01:56:04.440 these other human beings because they're in a different stage.

01:56:07.700 But embryos, fetuses are human beings.

01:56:11.880 There are human beings in a different stage, just like how you have toddlers and adolescents.

01:56:17.000 So I have another question.

01:56:17.920 Do you think, uh, you, are you, you're in favor of a total abortion ban?

01:56:22.620 Obviously there's like exceptions.

01:56:24.040 I believe the Life at Conception Act should be passed, which would recognize, uh, what the

01:56:29.180 14th amendment says that the, uh, preborn human is a person and should have equal rights.

01:56:37.100 That would, that would mean abortion is still possible, but only through due process, meaning

01:56:41.380 that a woman, that'd be interesting.

01:56:43.400 Yeah.

01:56:43.560 Then you have legal arguments about, uh, you know, sexual assault, rape, incest, and the

01:56:47.500 health of the mother would require a judge.

01:56:49.320 Well, I would, we have to use the, use the definition of life.

01:56:52.700 Health is very, I mean, the argument that the Biden administration literally just made

01:56:55.900 the Supreme court two weeks ago was they're trying to force the state of Idaho to, uh, do

01:57:02.400 abortions in emergency rooms using an emergency law that says that you can't deny treatment

01:57:08.920 to somebody who shows up the emergency room, depending on their ability to pay.

01:57:11.960 And they use the word health instead of she shows up and says, I'm going to kill myself

01:57:15.940 or my mental health.

01:57:17.060 To the point though, if a woman is facing death due to a pregnancy complication, and let's

01:57:23.580 say it's, it's actually fairly definitive, like, oh crap, the baby and the mother are about

01:57:27.660 to die on, under the 14th amendment interpretation of personhood and due process rights, it would

01:57:33.120 mean that before the abortion could be carried out, even in that, in that circumstance, a

01:57:39.180 judge would have to sign off on it.

01:57:41.020 It would require a due process.

01:57:42.320 I don't know if it would need a judge.

01:57:44.100 I mean, you would have state laws that then are created and then you have state medical

01:57:48.580 boards who then, and ethics boards at hospitals who make those determinations.

01:57:53.040 It would.

01:57:53.920 A due process requires, uh, it would have to, there would have to be an adversarial court.

01:57:57.660 Meaning you're going to end up with liberal groups.

01:58:00.360 So, uh, it would still get really weird to be completely honest.

01:58:03.260 In fact, you probably get pro-life groups.

01:58:04.880 Um, a woman is pregnant and it's a 77% chance that science is, they can't say yes or no.

01:58:12.120 Let's just say there's a circumstance then where they're like, if this carries out for

01:58:15.780 another week, you're going to die.

01:58:16.940 The baby will then die.

01:58:18.320 We unfortunately have no choice.

01:58:19.860 I'm sorry, man, but we have to terminate this pregnancy and the baby will not survive.

01:58:22.840 If, if the 40th amendment stands, it would require a due process for the life of the

01:58:28.240 baby.

01:58:28.620 There is no statutory law that says we can override a person's constitutional rights

01:58:34.700 without due process.

01:58:36.680 It would then require someone say...

01:58:38.880 Emergency hearing.

01:58:39.420 Emergency hearing.

01:58:40.600 A guardian ad litem would be appointed to the unborn child.

01:58:43.460 Exactly.

01:58:44.460 Well, it doesn't make sense though.

01:58:45.420 I mean, if you think about if a mother is going to die and unless the pregnancy has

01:58:50.240 ended, that stage of her life is ended and the child is birthed, whether the child is

01:58:54.880 living or dead, keep forcing her to stay alive for her to then die will mean her child will

01:59:01.480 die as well.

01:59:02.300 So, I mean, that's going to be an interesting conversation.

01:59:04.260 The reason why this question matters is because there's going to...

01:59:06.880 No pro-life law would say that, but...

01:59:08.260 Absolutely.

01:59:09.120 If the Supreme Court rules under the 14th amendment that unborn are persons before any pregnancy is

01:59:15.320 terminated, which ends the life of the baby, regardless of what a doctor thinks would

01:59:18.800 require due process, because if it didn't, then you would just have pro-abortion groups

01:59:23.380 being like, oh, geez, that baby is going to die.

01:59:26.340 Have to abort it.

01:59:27.300 Well, I mean, that's what they do now.

01:59:28.560 They use a loose...

01:59:29.280 That's why it's just demonstrating with the Biden administration, using a loose definition

01:59:32.000 of health.

01:59:32.180 And so the point is, you will find circumstances then where there will be a legitimate medical

01:59:36.100 issue that will require an emergency hearing and an advocate for the unborn.

01:59:40.660 So that will happen.

01:59:42.440 And that happens now in hospitals, though.

01:59:43.840 Where a woman can't get an abortion unless they go to a court?

01:59:46.200 Well, they go...

01:59:46.960 Before, it's like the hospital court, right?

01:59:49.000 It's like the hospital ethics boards.

01:59:51.580 And so if a woman's in Texas...

01:59:52.940 That's not due process, though.

01:59:53.680 And that happened before Roe v. Wade as well.

01:59:55.960 It even happened during the 49 years of the tragedy of Roe.

02:00:01.280 And this is why hospitals have ethics boards, right?

02:00:04.740 And it actually takes a vote from multiple doctors at that ethics board.

02:00:08.860 But due process requires a judge.

02:00:10.900 Yeah, I mean, I don't know what the laws are going to be like that at that time.

02:00:14.600 At that point, by the time we get a human life amendment either passed or a life of conception

02:00:21.100 act passed, which recognizes the 14th amendment rights of every person, I can pretty much say

02:00:26.840 we're going to have artificial wounds at that moment.

02:00:29.900 And we're not really...

02:00:31.400 Hopefully, we'll be at that point where we're not going to have these discussions or need

02:00:36.020 to have these discussions because we will be able to use this invention, which I don't

02:00:40.440 really think was invented for good, but we'll be able to use this technological invention for good

02:00:45.860 to save the life of the child as well as the life of the mother.

02:00:50.200 There will be circumstances where a cesarean is not possible and the baby can't be...

02:00:56.020 Labor can't be induced.

02:00:57.240 Sure.

02:00:57.420 But I do believe that artificial wombs overwhelmingly will end the abortion question once and for

02:01:02.580 all.

02:01:02.740 Yeah, no.

02:01:03.200 Women will go in and be like, I didn't want to get pregnant and it's been four weeks.

02:01:06.720 They'll be like, we'll transfer the baby to a womb bag.

02:01:09.220 Now, when I ask that question on campuses, though, to be honest with you, Tim, and I'll

02:01:11.840 ask that of pro-choice advocates, well, what do you think about artificial wombs?

02:01:14.780 Would you join me in opposing abortion?

02:01:16.420 And they're like, no, because you're still forcing her...

02:01:18.660 Yep, to have a baby.

02:01:19.760 So I'm like, oh, hmm.

02:01:21.320 And that's why...

02:01:21.780 So you're not really saying it's about her body.

02:01:24.460 When Democrats tried passing this bill that would allow abortion up to the point of birth

02:01:28.560 in the event of the health of the mother, which is what the bill said...

02:01:31.420 And they're going to pass it if Joe Biden's re-elected and they get the majority incentive.

02:01:34.940 I was talking to a friend of mine who is, we call him Normie, not really politically active,

02:01:39.840 kind of a liberal New York guy.

02:01:41.780 And we were talking politics and I said, well, look, if you tell the truth on what the news

02:01:47.400 is, they call you right-wing.

02:01:48.720 For instance, I'm the traditional pro-choice.

02:01:51.980 It's a libertarian argument.

02:01:54.180 We don't really see that in common politics today.

02:01:56.440 Like the typical argument is like Michelle Wolf going on Netflix screaming, you get an

02:02:00.400 abortion and you get...

02:02:01.320 And I'm like, that's kind of weird.

02:02:03.020 I like Tulsi Gabbard, safe, legal, rare, all that stuff.

02:02:05.600 But when I report on what the bill the Democrats are passing is, they say that me reading it,

02:02:10.680 it was a subsection 13 or something.

02:02:12.620 They call me, and you probably remember this one, they call me conservative pro-life right

02:02:16.480 wing.

02:02:16.700 And I'm like, it's the weirdest thing.

02:02:18.360 When I explained to him what the bill did, he told me I was wrong.

02:02:21.440 And he's a normie guy.

02:02:22.620 I said, the bill would allow, in the circumstances of the health of the mother being threatened,

02:02:26.900 which is broadly interpretable, the termination of the baby up to the point of birth.

02:02:31.840 And it's federal.

02:02:33.260 And I said, my question is just simply this.

02:02:35.880 If the baby can survive on its own, why kill it?

02:02:39.020 And if that's the case, then the bill should simply read, a pregnancy may be terminated

02:02:43.420 so long as every effort is made to preserve the life of the child.

02:02:46.680 The baby can be given adoption, et cetera, et cetera.

02:02:49.000 And he looked at me, he's like, no, you're wrong.

02:02:50.460 That's not what the bill says.

02:02:51.500 And I was like, I'm not here to argue pro-abortion or choice or anything.

02:02:55.400 I'm just...

02:02:56.100 I think it's hard.

02:02:57.060 It's hard.

02:02:57.520 When I showed him the bill, I pulled out my phone, I was like, here, you read it.

02:03:00.180 He got confused and he goes, no, this is wrong.

02:03:02.660 And I'm like, that's Congress.gov.

02:03:02.840 It's hard for the human person to understand abortion.

02:03:07.060 Most people don't want to think about abortion.

02:03:09.100 Like when we talk about abortion happening in the third trimester, people go, that doesn't

02:03:12.860 happen.

02:03:13.260 You're a liar.

02:03:13.960 Okay.

02:03:14.340 Do you want to call an abortion facility in Maryland, Bethesda, Maryland, or Washington,

02:03:18.500 D.C.?

02:03:18.800 Because I can schedule one for you right now.

02:03:20.600 And we don't have a national abortion reporting law, but according to the inaccurate stats that

02:03:25.340 we have in the CDC, about 11,000 babies die a year of these late term abortions.

02:03:31.760 But people don't want to think of it that way, Tim, because if you have to think about

02:03:36.200 what their extrapolation of their pro-choice views are, it sounds really bad to everyone.

02:03:43.700 It's written on the human heart, I would argue, because there's moral right and wrong not

02:03:48.920 to prescribe death to an inconvenient other human person.

02:03:53.320 I believe the reason why, the only reason why the pro-choice side argues that the unborn

02:03:58.600 are not human life is political, because they can't accept within their hearts their guilt

02:04:03.120 over killing a human.

02:04:04.580 Or you can make choices, just more different choices in your own life.

02:04:08.340 You have to think about that.

02:04:09.060 If you become pro-life, Tim, and you're on campuses, or if you're hooking up with a bunch

02:04:13.020 of women, you then have to become a little bit more responsible in your decision making.

02:04:18.520 You might have to choose not to just use a woman's body for pleasure the way you see fit,

02:04:23.460 because then you may be on the hook.

02:04:26.160 Well, I would say I'm absolutely disgusted by the guys who go to women and are like,

02:04:30.680 get an abortion, I refuse.

02:04:31.740 And the women are like, I don't want to.

02:04:33.060 No, that guy should...

02:04:34.200 When the man chooses to engage in relations with a woman, pregnancy is his consent, and

02:04:39.660 he is responsible.

02:04:40.900 That's right.

02:04:41.240 And I don't like the, for 18 years...

02:04:43.120 No, for life.

02:04:44.220 You have a kid, you have responsibility to that kid for the rest of your existence.

02:04:47.780 38% of women say, according to the Guttmacher Institute, that they felt pressured to have

02:04:53.660 an abortion.

02:04:55.000 Yeah, gross.

02:04:55.380 And who had pressured them?

02:04:57.020 The partner.

02:04:57.860 Yep.

02:04:58.460 That's the majority of pressure they receive.

02:04:59.680 Can I ask a question?

02:05:00.720 Sure, yeah.

02:05:01.800 What do you want for women?

02:05:04.100 What is the better world you envision for them?

02:05:07.160 Sure.

02:05:07.360 What's that look like?

02:05:07.940 I want a world, and I'm fighting for an America where no woman feels ever again that

02:05:13.420 she has to choose between the life of her child and her education or her career or what she's

02:05:19.960 envisioned for her life, that we live up to the second wave of feminists, the promises

02:05:25.800 of second wave feminism, that I am woman, hear me roar.

02:05:29.340 I can do whatever I want, that I am an equal functioning part of this society, and that I

02:05:34.600 don't have to pay someone to conduct a special surgery on me to end the life of an innocent

02:05:41.240 other, for me to be like the normative male body, that that actually isn't equality, that

02:05:48.640 I am equal to man simply because of who I am.

02:05:51.460 What do you want for all women, though?

02:05:52.340 That's some women.

02:05:53.640 I want all women to know that they don't have to choose to end the life of another human

02:05:58.480 being, and that's not a choice that any of us should be able to make, be legal for

02:06:03.500 us to make to end the life of an inconvenient other human being.

02:06:07.100 That is why I've launched organizations like StandingWithYou.org.

02:06:10.480 That's why we're changing policies on private Christian school campuses, as well as four-year

02:06:16.080 campuses that are discriminatory towards pregnant parenting women.

02:06:19.300 That is why I introduced the Pregnant Parent and Student Bill of Rights Act, which every

02:06:23.880 single Democrat in the House of Representatives this January voted against.

02:06:27.460 All that bill said was that in student handbooks, right beside where you can tell women to have

02:06:32.500 an abortion or where to get her free condoms, you tell her where there's actual sources of

02:06:37.520 support in the community if she chooses life.

02:06:39.940 And every single Democrat and the House of Representatives voted against that bill.

02:06:44.860 Do you think that was wrong, Pastor?

02:06:47.120 Do you think the Democrats should have at least joined us in saying-

02:06:49.500 I gotta be honest.

02:06:50.540 We should have a bill that tells women.

02:06:52.020 When you stopped answering the question and started plugging your work, I stopped paying

02:06:56.040 attention.

02:06:57.220 But I'm asking, you want women to be able to choose then?

02:07:01.860 That's what you want for them?

02:07:03.540 I want women to know and understand that they don't have to make that choice.

02:07:07.680 But I don't think that choice should be legal.

02:07:09.500 That is why going back to your earlier vision question-

02:07:12.320 But women don't have to make that choice right now.

02:07:15.720 I think women should have the right to choose whether to have sex with a guy or not and

02:07:20.140 get pregnant.

02:07:20.900 I don't understand- we're well past the era of men conking women over the head with a

02:07:26.860 club and dragging them into a cave.

02:07:28.600 And women don't just like fall on penises on the street.

02:07:31.320 But that's why-

02:07:32.060 It's like, she just fell pregnant.

02:07:33.800 Well-

02:07:34.220 I don't- so I think elective abortion is wrong.

02:07:36.680 I don't- I don't hear any argument for it.

02:07:38.940 It's basically just- they have a right to choose.

02:07:41.220 And I'm like, I don't- I don't understand how you can say, I hereby consent to allow

02:07:45.340 life into my body.

02:07:46.320 Oops, now I'm going to end it.

02:07:47.760 I don't understand that.

02:07:48.700 There's no- there's no scientific or moral argument there.

02:07:51.040 Rape, however, the challenge is in- and they are more rare, but it does happen.

02:07:56.880 What ultimately leads me to a general approach, like traditional pro-choice and not modern

02:08:03.220 pro-choice, is it's a horrifying reality of women having to go to adjudication over rapes

02:08:11.480 and non-consensual impregnation, and the government can't mandate that a person provide their body

02:08:18.000 to another person.

02:08:19.020 It's a rather difficult, nigh impossible moral position, because you have now- I believe there

02:08:25.760 was a genuine attempt, you know, several decades ago to figure this question out of rape particularly,

02:08:31.000 and the question ultimately fell upon- I don't think anyone's going to be happy with a situation

02:08:36.520 where a woman gets raped and then has to justify to the court why- how she didn't consent to

02:08:41.360 this, because that was never her- the onus was never on her.

02:08:44.940 She said, no, there's no consent.

02:08:47.100 Why should she have to prove there was- there wasn't?

02:08:50.440 And so-

02:08:51.020 I mean, we have a problem first in the legal system now.

02:08:53.060 Less than 1% of all sexual assaults are actually even prosecuted.

02:08:56.680 Rapists are walking among us, and there's no repercussions.

02:08:59.240 The courts ultimately said, so we will leave it upon the discretion of the woman then,

02:09:04.220 and it was rape being the question as to how this gets brought up, ultimately results in

02:09:08.820 millions of abortion as contraception, which is women choosing to invite life into their

02:09:16.180 bodies and then regretting it, and saying, oops, I didn't think it would happen.

02:09:21.000 Look, you- I know it's not a one-for-one argument, but if I have a house and I tell someone,

02:09:27.200 you are free to come and stay here, and then they do, and then later I'm like, you know

02:09:31.860 what?

02:09:32.820 I don't think this is going to work out.

02:09:33.920 It's like, well, there's a process, an eviction process for this.

02:09:36.780 You may not like it, but if you rent a property to someone by choice, you- the problem we have

02:09:42.240 now is we have a tenant- like in New York, it's really- it's funny, because again, they're

02:09:46.280 not one-for-one.

02:09:46.880 But you have the squatter's argument, which is like this- it's funny that it's coming

02:09:52.060 from the liberals.

02:09:53.000 Someone can break into your home without your consent and live in your house, and you can't

02:09:56.180 get rid of them.

02:09:56.700 You can't- they're- nope, they live there now.

02:09:58.320 That's the rule to protect their life.

02:10:00.860 And I'm like, that's kind of funny.

02:10:01.860 You know what I mean?

02:10:02.640 So my challenge, I suppose, and the big challenge is, it is amoral, it is wrong, and it is a lie

02:10:08.860 to defend abortion as contraception.

02:10:11.440 I think, I've had so many debates with pro-choice individuals, there's nebulous answers, there's

02:10:18.460 wide-ranging answers, there's no logical argument as to why a person could elect to invite life

02:10:27.080 into their body and then also destroy it.

02:10:29.580 Because we don't like consequences, Tim.

02:10:31.780 So I think if abortion was only ever and easily morally adjudicated and legally adjudicated

02:10:39.120 through, abortion only exists in the instance of the life of the mother.

02:10:45.660 I do think health is a question, but it's supposed to be like substantial threat of massive injury.

02:10:52.660 Like it leaves you permanently paralyzed and like the baby can't survive or whatever.

02:10:56.200 The problem now is abortion is just, oops.

02:10:59.360 I just- I don't see that.

02:11:00.680 So you and I don't agree on the issue of abortion cases rape.

02:11:03.740 I don't think the circumstances of your conception changes your value.

02:11:07.960 And I have too many friends who were conceived in rape to be able to say, yeah, I think they

02:11:12.160 should have been killed because their father is an evil bastard.

02:11:15.800 So-

02:11:16.000 But that's not what I'm saying either.

02:11:17.020 But I'm saying that's what we say.

02:11:19.500 And I think that's what's missing in this conversation about abortion cases of rape,

02:11:23.520 especially when it's on, you know, nightly news and it's like the 30 seconds and the pro-choice

02:11:27.680 advocate uses rape to justify 100% of abortions, which I think is completely disingenuous.

02:11:33.880 So let me ask you a quick question.

02:11:34.960 It's the dead of winter.

02:11:37.480 It is the solstice.

02:11:40.880 And you wake up-

02:11:42.060 Solstice.

02:11:42.840 Yeah.

02:11:43.420 And you wake up and- it's the darkest, you know.

02:11:46.360 Yeah, I know.

02:11:46.700 You wake up and there is a 10-year-old kid in your kitchen eating your food.

02:11:51.200 You think by law you should be forced to now feed and house that kid that you did not

02:11:56.700 allow in your house.

02:11:57.320 That's different, right?

02:11:58.380 So feeding and housing the kid, one, is different than taking a gun to their head and shooting

02:12:04.660 the kid and killing it.

02:12:05.580 No, putting the kid outside.

02:12:07.700 Well, I mean, I think you would say you would take every precaution to preserve that human

02:12:13.600 life.

02:12:13.960 You would call EMS.

02:12:15.180 You would call 911, as long as we still have 911.

02:12:18.600 You would take those precautions to preserve human life.

02:12:22.340 But that's very much different than a child who has been conceived in rape.

02:12:28.840 I agree.

02:12:29.840 If a baby is at seven months and it was a rape conception, you can't kill that baby.

02:12:35.700 It's seven months.

02:12:36.880 The baby should be- at that point, it's a question of like- but if I wake up and there's a kid

02:12:41.820 in my house, I have every right to open the door and say, get out of my house.

02:12:45.460 And the kid goes, but I'll die outside.

02:12:47.600 I'm like, wow, that sucks.

02:12:48.640 Who are you?

02:12:49.180 Get out of my house.

02:12:50.280 That's a threat to my family.

02:12:51.700 I don't know who this kid is.

02:12:52.500 This kid could be crazy or whatever.

02:12:54.380 I don't see a legal obligation for me to provide food, shelter, warmth, comfort.

02:13:00.020 That child is a stranger to you.

02:13:02.280 And that legal obligation is different from a moral obligation.

02:13:05.260 Well, biologically, that child is different than you.

02:13:07.520 In cases that a woman has been raped, she becomes pregnant, the child is half of her.

02:13:14.280 We tend to think that it's like this foreign invader.

02:13:17.500 And honestly, I think we need to have a real conversation about what happened.

02:13:21.580 So there's not very many studies about what happens in cases of rape.

02:13:24.680 There's about- a couple of studies we know, the estimates are about 5% of women who are

02:13:29.060 raped conceive.

02:13:30.680 The Elliott Institute studied 162 women who conceived after rape.

02:13:35.080 The shocking statistic that no one ever can believe is that 70% of those women chose life.

02:13:40.900 30% of them chose abortion.

02:13:42.960 Now, the 70% half chose to place with adoptive family, half chose the parent.

02:13:48.120 80% of the women, the 30% who chose abortion, regretted their decision.

02:13:53.140 0% of the women who chose life regretted their decision.

02:13:55.340 This is a legal argument.

02:13:57.020 And Ryan is correct when he says that.

02:14:00.060 I commend those women for choosing life.

02:14:02.240 I think that's a great thing to do.

02:14:04.280 There's no more noble person that we have.

02:14:06.960 Extremely difficult.

02:14:07.600 But I don't think the government has the legal authority to mandate a person provide their

02:14:12.540 body to another person.

02:14:13.580 That's right.

02:14:14.300 But I think that's different.

02:14:15.700 I think the stranger in your home is biologically different than the child in your womb who is

02:14:23.040 half your DNA.

02:14:24.400 And I think we're forgetting-

02:14:27.100 I have a friend who was conceived in rape.

02:14:29.340 And Ryan often will tell me, he'll say, I am not the residue of my rapist.

02:14:34.360 I am proof that I am the resilience of my mother.

02:14:37.480 And I agree with the morality.

02:14:38.460 He is half of his mother.

02:14:39.600 And I agree-

02:14:40.660 He's not just the rapist baby, which we always use these demeaning terms.

02:14:44.680 Right, right, right.

02:14:45.040 This is a question I have for you, Pastor, because I was reading-

02:14:47.100 So I agree with the morality.

02:14:48.600 I want to know what the pastor thinks about this.

02:14:49.500 I agree with the morality, but the issue is the legal limits of the United States government

02:14:55.020 to enforce things.

02:14:56.840 Yeah, I think, no, it's absolutely a person.

02:15:00.420 And if you look at the 14th Amendment, it's absolutely a person.

02:15:03.580 And if my father goes out and commits a rape today, or an act of terrorism, or something

02:15:10.040 horrific, there's no argument that I should be killed, put to death for my father's crimes.

02:15:16.100 And we would say, oh, that's different, Kristen, because you're outside of your mother's womb.

02:15:19.680 This is the conflation, though.

02:15:20.680 I'm not talking about killing a baby.

02:15:22.620 The end result may be the death of the baby, but-

02:15:25.540 With artificial wombs, you just lose a child.

02:15:28.440 Right, that ends that out right.

02:15:29.240 I think it's, for women who choose to protect the life, it's commendable, it's honorable,

02:15:34.280 but I don't think the government can say, you as a sovereign individual with inalienable

02:15:40.620 rights, your body is forfeit because someone committed a crime against you.

02:15:44.520 That's true.

02:15:44.980 I think she's noble enough to choose nine months so somebody else have nine years, but-

02:15:49.960 I think this is a gap that many of the pro-lifers can't grasp.

02:15:53.880 It's what's not being talked about.

02:15:55.400 If the state came to me for any reason and said, your body is under our control now without

02:16:01.520 your consent, I'd put a bullet in my brain.

02:16:02.840 But it all changes when we talk about this issue, and I'm just saying-

02:16:06.560 I will not let the state take my body in any circumstance for any reason, because I'm victimized.

02:16:12.000 If a mad scientist working for the government sewed my bloodstream to another person, I'd

02:16:17.240 have a pen in my neck.

02:16:18.020 But see, you're denying the biological reality of a child.

02:16:19.900 The child is not a foreign invader.

02:16:22.240 The child is where he or she is supposed to be in this argument.

02:16:28.460 I understand that.

02:16:29.540 My point is, if I don't consent to something being done to my body for any reason, whether

02:16:34.560 it's my cells or otherwise, and the state tells me, you have no agency, we hereby mandate,

02:16:39.940 I say-

02:16:40.360 I think this is a whole other podcast.

02:16:42.620 And also acknowledging, where does that end?

02:16:45.080 Well, Tim and I kind of agree that 97% of abortion should be unavailable.

02:16:50.420 Yeah, elective abortion is wrong.

02:16:51.460 Do you agree that 97% of abortion should be unavailable?

02:16:54.620 I think that abortion should be legal if the woman chooses it.

02:17:00.840 When do you think the child in the womb bears?

02:17:03.380 Because I was looking at some of your past op-eds this week, and you talked about image bears.

02:17:09.240 When do you think the child in the womb becomes an image bearer of the creator?

02:17:12.680 I think I have theological opinions on that, but we're talking about laws.

02:17:22.480 We're talking about science.

02:17:25.380 Okay.

02:17:25.980 Well, let's talk about science then.

02:17:30.500 Do you think a child who you just said could be aborted, it bears the image of God?

02:17:35.860 That's an unscientific question.

02:17:38.100 Okay.

02:17:38.420 Let me ask you the unscientific question.

02:17:40.540 You just said you would tolerate all of abortions.

02:17:43.900 Because I tried to give you an olive branch saying, do you agree that 97%?

02:17:47.440 You said no.

02:17:48.020 So you want all abortions to be legal because you think a mother should get to choose.

02:17:51.920 Yes.

02:17:52.160 Do you think those children that are aborted bear the image of our creator?

02:17:58.500 Do you think they were created in the image of God?

02:18:00.840 That's not a scientific, you're asking a theological question.

02:18:05.760 I just told you, I'm asking you a non-scientific question.

02:18:07.740 Let me ask you a non-scientific question.

02:18:10.160 Do you believe a child who's going to be aborted, who you've just acknowledged you believe that

02:18:15.920 children can be aborted legally, do you believe they bear the image of God?

02:18:21.500 A human child in the womb?

02:18:24.260 Yes.

02:18:24.620 A human in the womb.

02:18:26.660 Does that human in the womb bear the image of God?

02:18:28.800 I think that the, what you're calling child in the womb is a potential child.

02:18:37.320 The human, so I won't use the word, if child's triggering, let me not use the word child.

02:18:41.400 The human in the womb.

02:18:43.660 The potential human in the womb.

02:18:45.340 Well, no, it's a human because it's not a quality bear.

02:18:47.700 When I have sex with my husband, I can only reproduce one thing.

02:18:51.240 The law of biogenesis guarantees it.

02:18:52.900 But you're asking me for my opinion.

02:18:54.900 And I'm saying, I don't agree with the words you're using.

02:18:58.800 My opinion is that it's a potential human.

02:19:02.480 What species is it in the womb?

02:19:04.380 This clump of cells that are in the woman's womb.

02:19:07.180 What species are those clump of cells?

02:19:09.820 It's the species of whatever it's being birthed in.

02:19:13.220 So it's a human.

02:19:14.000 It's a homo sapien.

02:19:15.220 It's a potential homo sapien.

02:19:17.180 Well, it is a homo sapien.

02:19:18.220 It's not, it's not not in existence, but potential means it's not in existence.

02:19:22.460 No, it doesn't.

02:19:23.360 It's in existence, right?

02:19:24.920 Potential means it can become that.

02:19:27.300 It's human DNA.

02:19:28.560 Yeah, it's definitely human DNA.

02:19:30.160 That's a, yes, it's human DNA.

02:19:32.260 So the human DNA in the mother's womb.

02:19:36.080 Does that human DNA bear the image of God?

02:19:40.860 Is it a human or DNA?

02:19:44.640 What is it?

02:19:46.420 Can that, can I have a conversation with a strand of DNA?

02:19:49.400 So you don't think DNA, you don't think cells in the womb?

02:19:53.360 No, no, no.

02:19:53.720 Now I'm asking you a question.

02:19:55.740 No, you can't have a conversation with a strand of DNA.

02:19:58.380 So it's not the same thing.

02:20:00.120 Here's a question.

02:20:00.980 So you think birth makes the human, because this is what, I was reading this beautiful

02:20:07.160 prayer you did.

02:20:07.620 You're trying to talk about it in a binary state.

02:20:09.940 That's not the way that it works.

02:20:10.640 You wrote a beautiful prayer about mothers who endured infertility and mothers who endured

02:20:15.360 miscarriage.

02:20:16.340 And you talked about the image of God.

02:20:19.560 And this is what I'm trying to figure out, because if you're saying abortion should be

02:20:23.080 legal in all nine months, yet you're a pastor and you've talked about the image of God,

02:20:29.540 that's a really big question that needs to be answered.

02:20:32.320 Okay, but you're not talking about that.

02:20:34.500 You're going somewhere else.

02:20:36.080 When does it become a child made in the image of God?

02:20:38.700 When does it become a human being in the image of God?

02:20:40.320 If you found just like a human finger, does that bear the image of God in any way?

02:20:47.680 I don't think so, but I've never thought about that before, honestly.

02:20:52.040 And a genuine question, because I don't understand what the question is.

02:20:54.860 I mean, I would recognize that it's part of a human, right?

02:20:57.680 Yeah, it's part of a human.

02:20:58.500 I don't know ultimately the greater point of the image of God for the child.

02:21:01.980 I was just curious, like, is the subsequent parts of a human bearing the image of God in

02:21:06.160 any way?

02:21:07.160 I'm not a Christian.

02:21:07.880 I don't know.

02:21:09.060 Yeah, I don't know that I would...

02:21:12.640 Are you asking me if I think a finger is...

02:21:15.800 Like, what makes the...

02:21:17.040 Like, humans were created in the image of God.

02:21:19.580 That's what Christians believe.

02:21:20.600 Right.

02:21:20.980 And so I'm wondering if, like...

02:21:22.140 Jesus is a Muslim as well.

02:21:22.900 Is it the whole or the parts?

02:21:24.620 I'm reminded of the ship of Theseus.

02:21:26.580 You guys are familiar with the ship of Theseus?

02:21:28.900 I know the song by Zeo, which is awesome, but I don't know.

02:21:32.200 Like, you have a ship.

02:21:34.240 You take one piece off and replace it.

02:21:36.800 You, over time, replace one part of the ship.

02:21:39.700 And then you take all of the parts you removed and build another ship.

02:21:42.800 Now you have two.

02:21:43.480 Which one's the original ship of Theseus?

02:21:45.760 So I'm just, you know, I'm genuinely wondering, is the image of God representing the whole

02:21:51.160 of God and man is in that image?

02:21:53.360 Or are the subsequent parts also a subsequent image of God in some way?

02:21:59.360 I don't know.

02:21:59.720 General question.

02:22:00.220 I'm not trying to...

02:22:01.040 I don't know what the ultimate point of the image of God is, but...

02:22:03.360 I mean, if you want an out there theological view, I mean, I think you could go a bunch

02:22:06.720 of different ways.

02:22:08.660 You could say that God is a spiritual being and therefore man's spiritual parts belong

02:22:15.460 to God and the material parts belong to the material creation.

02:22:20.200 I think...

02:22:20.920 I agree with that, actually.

02:22:21.640 I lean more in that direction.

02:22:24.500 There are other people that think that...

02:22:27.640 And I don't know how they get there because God is not flesh and blood, but they choose

02:22:35.800 to take the triune nature of man and say, look, God made us just like the Christian God,

02:22:42.340 a triune being.

02:22:43.620 We're a spirit and a mind and a body and God is a father and a son and a Holy Spirit.

02:22:48.900 But these are theological opinions.

02:22:51.140 They don't have anything to do with abortion.

02:22:53.680 Well, no.

02:22:54.520 So we are going to wrap up.

02:22:56.460 So I don't know if you want to...

02:22:57.440 Final questions, final thoughts.

02:22:58.140 Why would you grieve?

02:22:58.660 So going back to this prayer, this Huffington Post ball you did, you talked about women

02:23:02.480 grieving miscarriage.

02:23:03.580 Why would women grieve human DNA?

02:23:06.100 What's there to grieve if it's nothing?

02:23:07.460 Because they wanted to have the baby and it didn't make it.

02:23:14.520 Was it alive?

02:23:16.180 I have no idea.

02:23:18.260 Here, would you like a...

02:23:20.040 Let me get real...

02:23:21.460 Have you ever seen an ultrasound?

02:23:23.080 Let me get real...

02:23:24.260 Let me just get real personal with you for a second in the event that you think I'm a

02:23:28.500 baby killer.

02:23:29.160 I have two wonderful children.

02:23:33.280 We tried to have three.

02:23:36.120 Between the two children, my wife miscarried on our toilet.

02:23:41.900 I was out of my mind.

02:23:46.080 I didn't know what to do.

02:23:47.740 The first thing that I did, and I don't even remember reasoning it.

02:23:51.920 It's just where my consciousness went.

02:23:55.060 I went into the kitchen and I got one of those soup spoons.

02:24:00.500 And there's a bloody mess in the toilet bowl.

02:24:04.940 And I'm trying to find the miscarried pieces.

02:24:14.600 I wasn't attached to a person that existed.

02:24:20.960 I had never known this person.

02:24:22.740 I hadn't had emotional connections with them, conversations, changing their diaper, etc.

02:24:29.360 For me, personally, Ryan Phipps, there was not any of that God stuff going on.

02:24:38.860 This is God's image.

02:24:40.260 This is a human who is hurting right now.

02:24:44.220 No one was hurting except for me.

02:24:47.980 And so, I am not able to look at what happened there as this is a human being.

02:24:58.780 That is dying in front of me.

02:25:00.980 It had already died inside.

02:25:03.660 That's what happens in miscarriage.

02:25:05.120 And so...

02:25:06.020 Why were you...

02:25:06.860 What were you trying to collect?

02:25:08.360 Because you said miscarriage pieces, which is an accurate...

02:25:11.820 Because I don't know what...

02:25:14.720 I wasn't able to find anything.

02:25:16.300 Yeah.

02:25:16.500 I mean, sometimes with miscarriage, depending on what stage the mother was in, how late the pregnancy...

02:25:23.000 But women find the babies...

02:25:24.420 I'm simply trying to say that...

02:25:26.040 Their babies in toilet bowls, the chemical portion.

02:25:27.760 I think I'm a good dad.

02:25:30.080 I'm sure you are.

02:25:31.060 You would have to ask my children.

02:25:34.140 I am not interested in killing babies.

02:25:38.860 I am interested in the federal government not telling women what to do with their bodies.

02:25:45.540 Not because of this instance alone.

02:25:49.100 But once the government starts down that road of telling me what I can do with my bodies, I no longer have any hope for the world that my children will grow up in.

02:25:58.940 Don't you think a million abortions a year sort of necessitates we have this conversation?

02:26:03.080 I met this man last week, and I'm still pretty traumatized from it, Tommy, at Florida International University.

02:26:08.580 He drove four hours across the state of Florida, and my bodyguard immediately, hairs were raised because it came barreling towards me.

02:26:16.780 We didn't know this gentleman.

02:26:19.280 Tommy stopped in front of me and began bawling.

02:26:23.220 He pulled out a crumpled picture of an ultrasound out of his pocket.

02:26:29.700 His daughter, who he and his girlfriend had named, her name was Clementine.

02:26:35.360 They were broken up.

02:26:37.180 He had gone away for a week, and his girlfriend was pressured to have an abortion.

02:26:42.620 She had an abortion at 20 weeks.

02:26:45.640 It was a free abortion at Cherry Hill in New Jersey because they told her they would do the abortion for free if she donated her daughter's body to science for research.

02:26:56.240 And that was her choice.

02:26:57.440 And Tommy was distraught.

02:26:58.920 Tommy was bawling for hours, and he said, I had no say in this.

02:27:04.700 This was my daughter.

02:27:06.180 I couldn't protect her.

02:27:07.860 I've called the abortion clinic every day trying to retrieve her body because all I want is her body.

02:27:14.080 I'm buying a plot of land.

02:27:15.780 I want to bury her body.

02:27:18.160 This is my daughter.

02:27:19.660 I had no say.

02:27:21.820 My daughter was killed, and I had no say.

02:27:24.520 Her mother now regrets it, and I have no idea what to do.

02:27:27.800 Do you think Tommy should have had any say in whether or not his daughter, who he has the ultrasound of, who is 20 weeks, so like one and a half weeks away from viability.

02:27:40.180 Do you think there was anything wrong with that situation, or do you think it was just choice?

02:27:44.300 I'm not going to beat around the bush.

02:27:47.800 I think that's the way that it's supposed to work.

02:27:51.100 I'll give you my final thoughts as we wrap up.

02:27:56.340 Oklahoma has a ban, I believe.

02:27:59.520 You know better, but it's like an effective ban, except in rare exceptions.

02:28:02.780 Colorado is unrestricted.

02:28:04.220 That's right.

02:28:04.560 They share a border.

02:28:05.520 Yeah, they do.

02:28:05.980 I fear a scenario where there's a man and a woman.

02:28:11.880 They're together in a relationship, and they get pregnant.

02:28:15.640 The woman is, let's say, seven and a half months.

02:28:18.040 And then something happens where she decides, whatever it may be, I can't be with this guy.

02:28:23.320 And if I have this kid, I'm stuck with him forever.

02:28:25.960 So she gets in her car and starts driving full speed to Colorado.

02:28:31.540 The man wakes up, and he's shocked.

02:28:35.200 I can't believe this.

02:28:35.760 What's going on?

02:28:36.540 Where is my significant other?

02:28:38.620 And then a friend says, she didn't tell you.

02:28:41.840 She's leaving you, and she's going to Colorado to get an abortion.

02:28:44.960 And he says, but the baby can live.

02:28:47.020 The baby can live.

02:28:48.380 So he calls police.

02:28:50.060 What do I do?

02:28:50.940 She's going to kill my baby.

02:28:52.780 She doesn't need to kill it.

02:28:53.880 The baby can survive.

02:28:54.920 I don't care if she wants to be involved with me or not.

02:28:56.820 I will take care of my child.

02:28:58.600 And then they say, once she goes to Colorado, it's unrestricted.

02:29:02.200 She can do whatever she wants.

02:29:03.840 My fear is that scenario results in, there's a viral video where a guy is following a woman

02:29:10.460 into an abortion clinic, crying.

02:29:12.520 And then he drops to his knees, screaming out of his lungs, please don't kill my child.

02:29:15.760 And then she just shoves him off and goes inside.

02:29:18.280 I personally met a guy recently who told me that he begged his girlfriend not to abort their child.

02:29:23.900 But she said it's not his decision.

02:29:25.600 And then she got an abortion.

02:29:28.420 And he said this turned him from a Democrat into a full Republican across the board.

02:29:33.460 I was like, it's kind of wild.

02:29:35.380 Young Democrat guy.

02:29:36.500 And he mentioned, he's like, you know, I had something happen to me last year.

02:29:41.840 And then he told me the story.

02:29:43.040 And I said, I was like, so you're voting straight Republican ticket?

02:29:46.040 He was, yep.

02:29:46.740 And I was like, for real?

02:29:47.900 Like, I was kind of kidding.

02:29:48.820 And he's like, I can't, I'm Republican across all the way.

02:29:52.380 Wow.

02:29:52.680 So this scenario I fear is the guy rounds up his buddies and says, I'll be damned if I

02:30:00.060 let her murder my child.

02:30:01.600 And then you've got these two states on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

02:30:06.880 And then you've got law enforcement.

02:30:09.240 Which side do they take?

02:30:11.120 We've already heard some state officials.

02:30:14.280 I think it was Alabama.

02:30:15.260 I always forget the state saying we will prosecute.

02:30:17.480 A woman who conspires to travel across state lines to commit, you know, a murder.

02:30:23.060 And then what happens?

02:30:25.260 A guy rounds up his buddies and they go and they say, you know, as you mentioned, some

02:30:28.720 people view the law as what is moral.

02:30:32.020 But it's not so much that it's about what is acceptable in their community.

02:30:37.260 And right now, it probably wouldn't happen because abortions happen all over the place.

02:30:40.940 But with a state like Oklahoma, where the guy says, I know if she is here, they can't

02:30:47.160 kill my baby.

02:30:48.060 I'm going to get her.

02:30:49.680 And then you get a posse going.

02:30:51.160 Then she calls the police.

02:30:53.200 But maybe even it goes beyond that.

02:30:55.380 This is why you need a federal solution.

02:30:56.920 But what happens then if you get Oklahoma saying, we hereby say it is conspiracy to commit murder

02:31:02.140 if you travel out of state for an abortion.

02:31:04.360 And the law, the government of Oklahoma says to Colorado, we have an extradition for her

02:31:08.960 arrest.

02:31:09.320 And Colorado says, we're not going to extradite her.

02:31:11.840 What she's doing is a right and you can't do anything about it.

02:31:15.140 Then you're getting into.

02:31:16.060 This is why this abortion is not a state.

02:31:19.020 I agree.

02:31:19.700 It's not a state's issue.

02:31:20.860 You know, I, I disagree deeply with Donald Trump when he said abortion.

02:31:24.220 Now, I can work with Donald Trump because if it's a state's rights issue, then stop

02:31:26.980 funding Planned Parenthood with all of our tax dollars.

02:31:29.340 And there's a lot of things we can do.

02:31:30.780 Stop using our DOJ to put 80 year old Holocaust survivors in prison for having the audacity

02:31:36.120 for spraying it from abortion facility.

02:31:38.140 True story happening today.

02:31:39.820 One of them had a stroke this weekend, by the way.

02:31:41.960 We are 20 minutes over.

02:31:42.920 So we do need to wrap up.

02:31:43.640 So if you want to shout anything out and give some final thoughts.

02:31:46.040 Yeah, I would, I would definitely say that it's very sad that we have young men who know

02:31:50.780 the truth that life in the womb matters and they've been completely shut out of this conversation.

02:31:55.780 At the end of the day, your gender, your sex does not determine whether or not a human

02:32:01.820 being is valuable.

02:32:04.040 And we have laws for, you know, we have lots of questions about why we have laws and what

02:32:08.920 laws are.

02:32:09.460 But fundamentally, the laws are to help us ensure that we hold back the most horrific

02:32:16.060 things human beings can do to other human beings.

02:32:19.780 Every abortion intentionally ends a life of a unique, whole living human being.

02:32:24.360 You can follow me on Instagram, Twitter, God of Podcasts, Kristen Hawkins Show.

02:32:28.380 But Pastor, your comments today are shocking.

02:32:32.360 And quite honestly, those comments are the very ones that actually led me to start researching

02:32:37.560 the Catholic Church and why I came home to Catholicism.

02:32:40.240 Because that is heretical what you were saying.

02:32:43.880 It's shocking.

02:32:45.000 Exactly.

02:32:45.900 Final thoughts, sir.

02:32:46.760 Choice, right?

02:32:47.740 Heretical.

02:32:49.260 You spoke out against the Bible today.

02:32:50.700 I just want to say that I think at the nexus of this entire discussion are people that either

02:33:00.200 believe that law creates and dictates morality or that law stands on its own.

02:33:06.380 I do not want to live or participate in a country where law tells me what morality is.

02:33:15.100 I want the law to function as it should, not as a way to legislate morality, but how to

02:33:22.760 hold people accountable when they act against all of the laws that we've agreed to.

02:33:28.700 Do you have a social media or anything you want to mention?

02:33:31.020 I don't really care about promoting myself.

02:33:33.960 Well, right on.

02:33:34.860 Well, thanks for both of you hanging out.

02:33:36.280 Thanks for having us.

02:33:36.820 Of course, with an issue as big as this, I feel like this show is effectively taking

02:33:41.240 a ball-peen hammer to a skyscraper in dealing with it.

02:33:44.020 But, you know, it's fun either way.

02:33:45.220 We can do what we can.

02:33:46.080 Yeah, I'm glad both of you came.

02:33:47.300 It was a good conversation.

02:33:49.460 And for everybody, make sure you subscribe to Tenet Media.

02:33:52.480 We do the show Mondays, I'm sorry, Fridays at 10 a.m.

02:33:55.820 So we'll be back next week, of course.

02:33:57.120 But we will be back at Timcast IRL on YouTube tonight at 8 p.m.

02:34:00.460 And we will see you all there.

02:34:06.820 It's the season for new styles, and you love to shop for jackets and boots.

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The Culture War - Tim Pool - May 03, 2024

The Culture War #62 Abortion Debate & The GOP Civil War Over A Federal Ban ｜ The Culture War with Tim Pool w⧸Kristen Hawkins & Pastor Ryan Phipps

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