The Culture War - Tim Pool - The Culture War #7 - Vivek Ramaswamy GOP 2024 Candidate, Competing With Trump, Ending Wokeness

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00:00:59.300 We're hanging out with Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:01:03.980 How's it going, man?

00:01:04.620 I appreciate that, man.

00:01:05.500 You nailed that pronunciation.

00:01:07.040 I tried.

00:01:07.640 I respect that.

00:01:08.520 Yeah, that's good.

00:01:09.340 Well, we had you on TimCast IRL before.

00:01:11.220 It was fun.

00:01:11.580 And before I had you on the show, I was saying Vivek, and everybody says Vivek because it's

00:01:17.820 just, I don't know, anglicized or whatever.

00:01:19.540 I would also say that's very fair because it is spelled V-I-V-E-K, so that is a pretty

00:01:23.840 phonetic pronunciation, but the way it's pronounced is Vivek.

00:01:27.720 There we go.

00:01:28.360 I think we set the record straight for everybody who's been following along.

00:01:30.420 Yeah, thank you.

00:01:30.700 But you're running for president, huh?

00:01:32.240 Yeah.

00:01:32.800 It's been about all of six weeks now.

00:01:35.260 It's been going pretty well.

00:01:36.060 Yeah, five weeks maybe, six weeks.

00:01:37.460 I got a million and one questions, but let's just jump into it.

00:01:39.980 Yeah.

00:01:41.320 Republican?

00:01:42.300 Why?

00:01:43.280 What's going on?

00:01:44.740 Republican and why Republican or why president or all of it?

00:01:47.220 All of it.

00:01:47.260 Yeah.

00:01:47.480 I mean, look, so politics is not my world.

00:01:50.400 I'm not a politician.

00:01:51.940 I was in the world of, we can talk about it, I was in the world of business and biotech.

00:01:55.680 Ended up transitioning from that to writing books about our culture.

00:01:58.920 Still didn't think that partisan politics was where it was at for me.

00:02:02.400 But my basic reason for being in this is I think we're in the middle of this national

00:02:08.240 identity crisis.

00:02:09.840 We're lost.

00:02:10.320 I have a more extreme way of describing it, I suppose.

00:02:12.400 Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to keep it positive here, but I think the truth of it is, yeah,

00:02:18.300 I mean, we're, say it how you will, harshly, not harshly, we're lost.

00:02:22.800 We're people lost in the desert.

00:02:23.880 We're both 37.

00:02:24.940 Yeah.

00:02:25.560 Yes, people.

00:02:26.420 When's your birthday?

00:02:27.100 August 9th.

00:02:27.860 March 9th.

00:02:28.640 Okay.

00:02:28.920 Hey, got the 9th thing going on.

00:02:30.180 Yeah.

00:02:30.600 So I guess that makes it, it's like early in the morning, I got to just like think about

00:02:34.140 this.

00:02:34.480 So that makes us like six months apart or something like that.

00:02:37.000 Something like that.

00:02:37.140 Yeah.

00:02:37.580 Yeah.

00:02:37.880 Six months.

00:02:38.600 So five months.

00:02:39.680 Something like that.

00:02:40.800 Six months.

00:02:41.360 So whatever, ask people our generation, what does it mean to be American today?

00:02:46.740 Like you walked somebody, what does it mean to be American?

00:02:49.020 For me, you get a blank stare in response.

00:02:50.580 What does it mean to be American?

00:02:51.360 Oh man, it's a, it's, it's a belief in power from the masses to be an American represents

00:02:57.580 the will of the people, the consent of the governed belief in community, personal responsibility,

00:03:04.420 individual, individuality, meritocracy, freedoms, liberties.

00:03:08.320 I would simplify it all the way down to the rights of the individual as it comes together

00:03:16.100 to form the greater community.

00:03:17.240 So I view being American as a variety of things.

00:03:22.280 That's the simple ideological view.

00:03:24.240 And then the, the more subjective view, I suppose, is a connection with our history,

00:03:29.180 of course, belief in the vision of the founding fathers and the progress that has been made

00:03:33.220 over the past several hundred years to do away with awful things like racism, attaining

00:03:38.760 amazing things like civil rights.

00:03:40.100 It's the, being American is to strive to, for people, it's life, liberty, and the pursuit

00:03:46.820 of happiness as our founding fathers envisioned and the pursuit of improving upon that system,

00:03:52.740 doing away with the, the bad and building upon the good.

00:03:55.900 Then you can get into the granular and say a core tenet of this country has always been

00:04:00.460 individuality, meritocracy, personal responsibility that, that, you know, I'll, I'll leave it there.

00:04:05.020 Otherwise I'm going to go on for an hour.

00:04:05.940 Well, I mean, we could go on for days about it, but so just pick up off two strands of

00:04:10.180 what you said there.

00:04:11.260 Okay.

00:04:11.540 American identity is a complicated thing.

00:04:13.600 One of the things that you said in the first part of that answer is the individual, but

00:04:17.520 tying it in to a whole that's greater than some of its, some of its parts.

00:04:21.200 That's the biggest thing for me.

00:04:22.320 And that's the conflict.

00:04:23.960 It's not a conflict, but that's the tension at the heart of the American identity that

00:04:27.620 causes us to struggle with this because there's part of each of us that wants to be the

00:04:33.180 individualist, the rugged individual pursuing our version of the American dream best manifests

00:04:39.040 through free market capitalism.

00:04:41.160 And you know, Republicans and conservatives like to lean into that.

00:04:44.260 Like that's the part, the rugged individual.

00:04:45.980 That's me.

00:04:46.460 And I've lived that dream.

00:04:47.820 I mean, that's important to me.

00:04:48.700 It's important to you.

00:04:49.420 It's a big part of what it means to be American, but we don't admit often what the other side

00:04:55.100 embraces.

00:04:55.920 They reject the rugged individual and say, there's this collectivist identity and what it means

00:04:59.380 to be American as a member of this collective.

00:05:00.900 And I think the unique thing about what it means to be American is it's both of those

00:05:05.960 things at once, individualism and unity, right?

00:05:09.880 The American dream, capitalism, and being part of a self-governing constitutional republic.

00:05:15.740 Both of those are what it means to be American and they run roughshod over each other from

00:05:19.540 time to time.

00:05:20.660 But anyway, I'm on this quest to rediscover American identity.

00:05:23.700 That's a part of it.

00:05:24.540 Then you've got the, you've got the, you know, the part relating to excellence and meritocracy

00:05:29.240 and the set of ideals that set the nation into motion that that's deeply important to me.

00:05:33.620 That's where I think the real divide is.

00:05:34.920 I don't think the divide like with Democrats and Republicans is collectivist versus individualists.

00:05:40.420 A lot of people frame it that way.

00:05:41.660 And I don't see it that way.

00:05:43.180 They view leftists and Democrats as the collective and conservatives and libertarians.

00:05:48.640 That's not really where it's at.

00:05:49.960 Yeah.

00:05:50.080 It's, it's, it's, I don't know if it's reductionist.

00:05:52.200 I think it misses the point.

00:05:53.660 Conservatives obviously band together.

00:05:54.900 They're doing a big boycott of Anheuser-Busch right now.

00:05:57.060 They're all, you know, Kid Rocks firing a gun at Bud Light because he knows that among

00:06:00.960 his community, this resonates.

00:06:02.560 It means something to him.

00:06:03.420 It means something to you.

00:06:04.600 That is something part of the greater.

00:06:06.520 The, the people on the right absolutely believe in the American government, the constitution

00:06:10.220 and all that stuff.

00:06:11.400 And then there's this view of, of the culture war, the civil cold civil war, whatever you

00:06:16.400 want to call it as if it's these two things.

00:06:19.000 But I, I, I don't see that way at all.

00:06:20.940 I don't see any ideological drive among the, the left.

00:06:27.740 And I, I, you know, the funny thing is many of these, these commentators and these leftists

00:06:33.920 will argue that I'm biased and I'm right wing and all that.

00:06:36.700 And I absolutely disagree.

00:06:38.860 I believe that my view is I wouldn't ever claim to be omniscient.

00:06:45.040 I would just say moderately objective.

00:06:48.020 But what I, what I'm, what I mean by that is I'm not a conservative.

00:06:51.760 I've never been a conservative.

00:06:53.480 I have many liberal leaning views and many, I believe many things the left would completely

00:06:57.300 agree with, but they would still attack me anyway because the left is not ideologically

00:07:02.940 driven.

00:07:03.680 It is, I would describe it as not, it's, it's almost, I guess it's, it's pure collectivism

00:07:12.540 and nothing else.

00:07:13.500 It is quite literally, you adhere to what the left wants and that's all that matters.

00:07:17.080 And the best example of this, the way it's been described to me is if you are someone

00:07:22.400 who's on the left in this culture war, as people describe it, and you deviate on leftist

00:07:27.280 economic policy, they don't care.

00:07:29.240 If you're on the left and you say, actually, I don't, I don't necessarily believe in universal

00:07:32.400 healthcare.

00:07:32.760 I think maybe we should have, you know, strong insurance, but like reform, they're going

00:07:37.280 to say, okay, fine.

00:07:38.860 Yeah.

00:07:39.040 But if you say, I have questions about the transgender stuff, they're going to say, you're

00:07:42.760 a far right, you're a white supremacist, get out.

00:07:45.480 So what's driving them doesn't seem to be necessarily anything other than falling in

00:07:51.480 line with their version of the status quo of what their group deems at the time.

00:07:56.920 And the important factor there is that it changes all the time.

00:07:59.680 So the question is whether you describe that, and both can be true, like cynically as a top

00:08:05.240 down collectivist and or command and control project that demands a form of conformity.

00:08:11.200 And I think there's an element of that, but, and this gets to the heart of why I'm running

00:08:14.580 for president on this American identity campaign that I'm on is, I think the, the good hearted

00:08:20.180 version of it, right?

00:08:21.220 Just as take the earnest version of this is actually what's going on in the American left

00:08:25.560 is a big part of what's going on across the country is that we're just, you have a lot

00:08:29.900 of people who are hungry for a cause.

00:08:31.680 Oh yeah.

00:08:32.340 People who are lost in the desert, like I said, hungry for purpose and meaning and identity,

00:08:38.840 the things that human beings have always been hungry for, by the way, but they're not filling

00:08:43.320 that hunger anymore with pick your favorite value, faith, God, patriotism, national identity.

00:08:50.660 Adventure.

00:08:51.980 Adventure, a sense of even hard work, actually.

00:08:54.980 I mean, look at you, I mean, you created something here, right?

00:08:57.460 I, in my life, it looks very different, but I've, I've created things you can derive.

00:09:02.320 You build something with your hands, whatever it is, you work hard and create something.

00:09:05.860 That's a source of identity.

00:09:07.380 You know, your family for many people is a source of identity.

00:09:09.620 The two parents that brought me into this world.

00:09:11.660 When those things disappear, you have this black hole of a vacuum.

00:09:16.180 And that's why, you know what, healthcare policy or whatever doesn't fill the vacuum of

00:09:20.500 purpose, but believing in a quasi religious structure, which is what the trans movement is all

00:09:25.380 about or the woke movement or the climate movement or the COVID movement, that is actually the

00:09:30.340 reason that becomes the third rail for kicking you out of the tribe is that that's touching

00:09:34.960 a place in your heart that you were long missing and, and healthcare policy or economic policy

00:09:39.880 doesn't do that.

00:09:40.420 So that explains, I think the distinction you see when you abandon the religious structure

00:09:45.240 that otherwise gave them that sense of security that they were missing.

00:09:48.240 If you rip that away and take that away and say that trans is a mental illness or whatever,

00:09:52.860 that's actually why you get the reaction that you do.

00:09:55.020 I'm going to nerd out and confuse some people, but I have to do it.

00:09:58.480 All right.

00:09:58.660 Do you watch anime or manga at all?

00:10:00.780 I thought, no, not my cup of tea.

00:10:02.140 Dane's in the, he's telling, he's laughing.

00:10:03.520 Okay.

00:10:04.300 Like the Japanese cartoon stuff.

00:10:05.560 Yeah, yeah.

00:10:06.240 There's a Japanese comics and cartoons, a show called Bleach.

00:10:10.340 Okay.

00:10:10.740 And it's about, in this world, there are death gods, Grim Reapers.

00:10:15.400 Okay.

00:10:15.880 That have to save fairy souls to the other side.

00:10:19.400 But if a soul becomes wayward, they become what's called a hollow.

00:10:23.300 A hollow.

00:10:23.740 A hollow.

00:10:24.940 And they are-

00:10:25.580 Is that a Japanese word?

00:10:26.520 No, no.

00:10:26.860 Hollow.

00:10:27.320 Oh.

00:10:27.620 Oh, like hollow.

00:10:28.280 Hollow as in something's missing from your core.

00:10:30.620 Hollow.

00:10:31.060 H-O-L-L-O-W.

00:10:32.260 Okay.

00:10:32.420 Got it.

00:10:33.040 And as if to say there is nothing within, and these creatures actually have holes in

00:10:37.100 their chests or at some part of their body.

00:10:39.220 They are hollow.

00:10:39.980 They have lost something.

00:10:41.300 And so people who, souls who fail to move on become hollow.

00:10:46.700 And as you describe this, and as I've viewed it before, I'm like, it really does feel like

00:10:51.040 many of these people are hollow within.

00:10:54.540 And that's a dangerous vulnerability, right?

00:10:56.820 Because that's a vacuum.

00:10:57.960 That means that's an open space for someone else or something else to prey upon.

00:11:03.460 Exactly.

00:11:03.600 And we use the word hollow, the hole.

00:11:06.300 You're familiar with maybe a quote from I'll Geek Out in a different direction, but Blaise

00:11:09.460 Pascal, he's a famous mathematician, scientist, you know, French guy.

00:11:15.040 He had a famous quote, all-time quote, which wasn't related to his main disciplines of math

00:11:20.200 or science.

00:11:20.800 It was related to God, where he said, you have a hole the size of God in your heart and God

00:11:26.780 doesn't fill it.

00:11:28.420 Something else will instead.

00:11:30.780 And it's, again, this notion of the hollow.

00:11:33.360 And I just think that's what's going on in the country.

00:11:36.820 And I'll go one step further with the American left right now.

00:11:39.360 I was, I was thinking about this last night when I got a, got a text from a good friend

00:11:43.140 of mine, you know, but former colleague and, and long time, even a college near classmate,

00:11:50.700 we overlapped in college.

00:11:51.520 And I get a text from him last night and he was pissed about all the things I've been saying

00:11:56.960 about the trans movement recently.

00:11:59.260 I, I may say, if I may say this myself, I don't think any of it's offensive.

00:12:02.340 I think, I believe that every human being deserves dignity.

00:12:05.940 And I think that that strand has been true through everything I've said, but among other

00:12:10.140 things, my vehemence, and I'm vehement on this, that gender dysphoria and the modern

00:12:15.820 trans movement represents a manifestation of a mental illness.

00:12:19.160 Anyway, this was something that really ticked him off.

00:12:22.400 And I got like a walk, Niagara Falls, a text messages around 11 PM last night.

00:12:26.720 Right.

00:12:27.120 And, and we just flew in here this morning and like, you know, I, I don't have, I don't

00:12:30.680 want to keep going on this long text chain with him, but he was clearly bothered.

00:12:33.080 He's a friend.

00:12:33.680 So, you know, here we were going back and forth.

00:12:36.640 There's, there's even something further, the sense of being lost.

00:12:39.440 Right.

00:12:39.820 And I see this in him too.

00:12:41.840 It's not just that you're hungry for purpose, but you refuse to admit that you believe in

00:12:45.480 God or that you pledge allegiance to the flag or that your family structure is actually

00:12:49.680 an important part of your identity or that hard work.

00:12:52.800 It's not just that there's something even more going on because temporarily you can fill

00:12:58.040 that void with a hunt for civil rights, right?

00:13:03.080 A hunt for human rights.

00:13:04.220 That's a big part of what, what occupied this movement.

00:13:07.300 Even since the sixties, since the seventies is to say that, okay, even if I don't believe

00:13:11.660 in those things, I can fight for secular justice.

00:13:15.120 Okay.

00:13:15.560 Rights and equality.

00:13:16.800 Here's the real problem that's going on in the year 2022 or 2023 to 2015 is that then they

00:13:23.740 lost that too.

00:13:24.600 Why did they lose that?

00:13:26.320 Because we got to their promised land.

00:13:28.740 Yep.

00:13:29.300 So, so it's, it's, it's sort of a weird thing, right?

00:13:31.900 I mean, the racial wokeism or the gender culture war.

00:13:34.680 Now we live in a country where you can marry who you want, if you want, how you want, when

00:13:39.820 you want.

00:13:40.440 And it is precisely then that we reached this culture of vehemence with gender identity

00:13:44.900 itself being the new obsession.

00:13:46.240 It's because when you run out of human rights and civil rights to stand for, you have to find

00:13:50.760 new ones instead because you don't have God, you don't have country.

00:13:53.100 So then you lost my, you took my civil rights struggle away too.

00:13:56.180 Now I'm going to make one.

00:13:57.020 We'll take its place.

00:13:57.600 That's the trans movement in a nutshell.

00:13:58.960 One of the ways I've described it is an autoimmune disorder of the country.

00:14:02.960 The people who are fighting against racism.

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00:15:04.800 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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00:15:30.220 Did I mention that we care?

00:15:34.500 What was effectively like the white blood cells purging a negative, a bad thing from this country.

00:15:41.540 So you go back several decades, we have a racism problem, we have blockbusting, we have redlining,

00:15:45.660 we have outright practices that must be stopped.

00:15:49.060 And so people rise up to the challenge and they stop it.

00:15:51.840 Well, now it's codified.

00:15:53.080 Now it's illegal.

00:15:54.340 So what do these white blood cells do?

00:15:56.600 They start attacking healthy structures within the system.

00:15:59.380 Sure.

00:15:59.680 Causing damage as if it was similar to an autoimmune disorder.

00:16:04.260 I actually used this analogy in my last book.

00:16:06.920 Did you read Nation of Victims by chance?

00:16:08.540 Did you read either of my books?

00:16:09.560 No, I didn't.

00:16:10.180 Okay.

00:16:10.460 So I wrote this book, Woke Inc. a couple years ago.

00:16:13.280 That was about sort of the marriage of wokeness and capitalist structure and what each side

00:16:18.380 got out of the trade.

00:16:19.240 But that book was mostly about like the woke capitalism side of it, but I'd never gotten

00:16:24.180 that book into the underlying cultural phenomenon of what's actually going on.

00:16:27.820 So take the corporations out of it.

00:16:29.820 I wrote the second book called Nation of Victims, talks about the spirit of victimhood culture

00:16:32.500 in the United States.

00:16:34.240 But the opening chapter actually, it was written in the late stages of the end of the COVID

00:16:39.960 craze in this country.

00:16:40.720 So I drew this analogy where it's like the equivalent when you think about whatever it

00:16:45.640 is to take alleged racism in the United States, right?

00:16:48.600 There was a point in time, certainly 1870 reconstruction in this country where there was

00:16:53.840 a justified comprehensive societal response we needed to mount against actual systemic racism

00:17:00.620 that we fought a civil war in this country, among other things to overcome.

00:17:04.640 That moment has long passed.

00:17:06.140 And so what you see right now is the activation of an overactive hyperimmune response that's

00:17:12.760 trying to clear a virus that's already well below the limit of detection.

00:17:16.140 Am I saying there's none of it left?

00:17:17.520 No, but it's in the bloodstream, but it's like, you're not going to detect it.

00:17:20.360 You may as well watch it wither away to irrelevance.

00:17:23.440 But if you mount a comprehensive immune response after the virus itself is gone, actually, I don't

00:17:27.000 know if people know this.

00:17:27.700 That's actually how people die in the hospital of COVID.

00:17:31.020 You get acute respiratory distress syndrome.

00:17:32.740 Long after the virus is gone, your immune system is still attacking.

00:17:36.140 Your bodily organs, that's how you actually die.

00:17:39.100 And I think that's the equivalent of what's going on in the so-called woke movement in

00:17:42.720 this country is once the thing disappears, you don't even have a virus left to attack.

00:17:47.280 You're just attacking and killing the host itself.

00:17:49.120 That host is our country.

00:17:49.960 Exactly it.

00:17:50.720 And so how do we fix that?

00:17:52.120 That is the question for the House.

00:17:54.780 That is why I'm running for president.

00:17:57.160 I think I'm the best.

00:17:57.800 I mean, look, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think that, if I thought that somebody

00:18:01.160 else was able to actually take on this challenge of our time.

00:18:06.120 And for a different number of reasons, we got we got some time on our hands so we can

00:18:09.060 go through it.

00:18:09.640 But I don't think that I don't think that the rest of the conservative movement, there's

00:18:14.840 different flavors of it, are quite up to that task in this moment.

00:18:18.120 That is the work ahead of us.

00:18:19.800 Can we do it?

00:18:20.980 I'm raising my hand and giving it a try.

00:18:22.960 I agree.

00:18:23.280 I see Donald Trump as a very strong figure who wants revenge.

00:18:28.840 He didn't get a chance to do what he wanted to do with his first term.

00:18:31.620 He was hobbled.

00:18:32.600 He was he was what I would describe it, framed as being a Russian spy and traitor to this

00:18:38.620 country.

00:18:38.960 It's unbelievable.

00:18:39.880 Yep.

00:18:40.560 But Trump doesn't know everything you just said.

00:18:44.920 I think, you know, we're younger.

00:18:46.240 He's older.

00:18:46.760 I think he's literally twice as old as we are a little bit more.

00:18:48.820 A little bit more, I think.

00:18:49.480 Yeah.

00:18:49.660 And we here are seeing our own generation and younger embracing these things or resisting

00:18:55.620 these things.

00:18:56.300 And Donald Trump's perspective is very much in the in the boomer generation.

00:19:00.500 Totally.

00:19:00.960 So all I can really say is without, you know, speculating, opining on the results of a GOP

00:19:06.500 primary, I look forward to you saying everything you just said to these other people on stage

00:19:12.400 and to the American people, because it needs to be brought up in the conversation as we're

00:19:16.860 moving forward in terms of who becomes president.

00:19:19.260 And yeah, and the case I'm making to people right now is forget who about who you're voting

00:19:22.820 for.

00:19:23.420 Nobody's voting this year.

00:19:24.240 Put that to next year.

00:19:25.440 But this year's about answering the what and the why.

00:19:29.200 Right.

00:19:29.340 What do we stand for?

00:19:30.040 Why do we stand for it?

00:19:31.720 Not because I need the money, but I mean, we all need the money, too.

00:19:34.380 But I mean, I'll put an eight figure check into this campaign just to kick it off.

00:19:36.840 But I want it to be grassroots driven movement to at least force that to the center of the

00:19:41.080 debate stage.

00:19:41.800 So, you know, Vivek 2024 dot com, literally people just type it in and go there, give

00:19:46.920 a dollar or five dollars, even if they might be voting for Trump or somebody else who are

00:19:50.880 still interested in seeing these these questions asked and answered and addressed.

00:19:56.740 Now, our whole play is whoever leads that way.

00:19:59.420 The case I'll make next year is pick the person who led the way in defining the agenda, you

00:20:04.220 know, but we'll get to that next year.

00:20:05.500 But this year it's about defining that agenda.

00:20:07.480 But, you know, back to back to the essence of this question is.

00:20:11.380 I think that our work is harder.

00:20:15.420 Than just playing whack-a-mole with that lost left wing exit, so we have a bunch of lost

00:20:21.820 people on the other side there, there are many of them literally mentally ill.

00:20:26.160 I mean, I think much of the trans movement is just the manifestation of a deeper mental

00:20:30.420 illness that's part and parcel of being lost and hungry for this cause.

00:20:34.500 And I want to we can we can bat them down, but that's not going to do anything.

00:20:37.800 I want to clarify that, too.

00:20:40.480 My view, and I think what you're saying is trans is ancillary to the existing mental

00:20:45.160 illness that these people are suffering from.

00:20:46.660 Oh, that's just like a small symptom.

00:20:48.060 Exactly.

00:20:48.560 I mean, that's just in this and we're playing whack-a-mole today.

00:20:50.620 The whack-a-mole is trans.

00:20:51.560 But the climate cult, the religiosity of self-flogging, wearing the hair shirt of climate change and

00:20:56.800 the way you're supposed to apologize for your modern way of life, the belief in seeing that

00:21:00.120 we have different shades of melanin and are supposed to presuppose some invisible societal

00:21:04.120 relationship that that precedes us and will post date us because of the race or the color

00:21:09.240 of our skin.

00:21:10.100 These are all just symptoms of a deeper of a deeper mental illness caused by two things.

00:21:17.080 OK, you ever go whitewater rafting or?

00:21:19.140 Yeah, I have actually.

00:21:19.820 It's like whitewater rafting, right?

00:21:21.700 You get a class five rapid.

00:21:22.900 How do you do it?

00:21:23.540 Yeah.

00:21:23.940 You don't.

00:21:24.640 If you have two streams that hit each other, OK, two currents, you get a current that's

00:21:29.940 not twice as powerful.

00:21:30.880 It's 10 times as powerful.

00:21:32.040 Yep.

00:21:32.880 Two of the currents right now is on one hand, you have this, the hollow problem, as you

00:21:38.460 put it, the void, the black hole, no faith, patriotism, hard work, family, all that gone.

00:21:44.520 So you got a hunger for purpose.

00:21:45.700 You have a hollow.

00:21:46.220 On the other hand, you have a culture, especially for young people, that says you can't actually

00:21:50.500 say what you believe.

00:21:51.640 So if you do have a thought that defects from an orthodox, you have to keep it to yourself.

00:21:55.700 Those are two currents that create this mental health epidemic that's spreading like wildfire.

00:22:00.460 It'll show up as depression.

00:22:01.560 It'll show up as anxiety.

00:22:02.720 It'll show up as dendro dysphoria.

00:22:03.780 It'll show up as woke.

00:22:05.720 And so against that backdrop, what do I see a lot of other conservatives doing?

00:22:10.740 We can get into this in depth.

00:22:14.600 A lot of them are playing whack-a-mole and they're not even some of them are playing whack-a-mole.

00:22:20.020 I mean, like take like a Ron DeSantis is he's not even going after the real thing.

00:22:23.140 He's just going through motions that imitate other people going after the real thing.

00:22:27.800 And how did I know that?

00:22:28.700 I was one of those people for the last three years going after woke and its manifestations.

00:22:33.920 Like that's what I spent a lot of my last three years after I stepped down as a biotech CEO.

00:22:38.180 That's being a big part of my focus.

00:22:40.040 And for me, it was like on a first personal level, I'm looking in the mirror here, it was reactionary.

00:22:47.960 I don't know if I've ever told you my story, but after I was running a multi-billion dollar

00:22:51.680 company, George Floyd's tragic death plays out and it was a tragic death.

00:22:56.520 But there was a demand that I make a statement on behalf of Black Lives Matter.

00:22:59.380 I refused to do it.

00:23:00.400 Led to a series of events that I described in Woke Inc.

00:23:03.360 Six months later, a bunch of prominent advisors to my company resigned.

00:23:06.480 I say, look, I have a choice.

00:23:07.680 I'm either going to speak my mind freely or I'm going to speak through the filter of corporate self-interest.

00:23:13.500 What did your company do?

00:23:14.660 We made medicines.

00:23:15.660 We developed drugs.

00:23:16.920 A pharmaceutical?

00:23:18.400 Yeah.

00:23:18.640 So like five of these.

00:23:19.540 And they wanted you to comment on racial politics.

00:23:22.120 Yeah.

00:23:22.400 About Black Lives Matter specifically.

00:23:24.420 They're like, guys, we make aspirin.

00:23:25.820 And I don't know, I don't know what you mean.

00:23:26.940 Well, actually, it was an innovative company where we were developing.

00:23:30.700 So one of them is a life-saving therapy for about 20 kids born each year with this disease.

00:23:38.260 You can talk about hollow or emptiness.

00:23:40.140 In this particular case, they're born without a particular part of their body that relates

00:23:46.180 to their immune system.

00:23:47.060 All 20 of those kids would have died by the age of three.

00:23:49.820 And with a therapy developed in partnership with Duke University, a majority of those

00:23:54.300 kids are able to live lives of a more normal duration.

00:23:57.280 But how does that stop racism?

00:24:00.520 Exactly.

00:24:01.140 Like that was the point that landed on my doorstep.

00:24:04.120 And so after the George Floyd protest, what did I say?

00:24:06.400 I said that, look, whether you're black or white or whatever your views are on this,

00:24:12.780 I'm proud to work on saving people's lives, something that can unite us and is a worthy

00:24:18.740 purpose regardless.

00:24:20.020 And what I was told is that didn't meet the moment.

00:24:23.380 That was tone deaf.

00:24:25.180 And anyway, that led to a series of events that actually I wrote an op-ed the following

00:24:29.660 January in the Wall Street Journal.

00:24:32.040 So those were the former law professor of mine.

00:24:33.780 So I have a background in science.

00:24:34.840 I ended up, you know, I have a background in law as well.

00:24:37.200 But, you know, just a former law professor of mine in my personal capacity, nothing to

00:24:40.040 do with the company, wrote a piece making the case that big tech companies, when they

00:24:45.240 engage in censorship at behest of the government, that it actually was bound by the First Amendment.

00:24:50.900 It was like a nerdy academic argument.

00:24:52.500 And I know conservatives, this has since become popularized in the last several years after

00:24:56.240 I made this argument.

00:24:57.380 This was the first time that argument was really made.

00:25:01.080 And so anyway, after I wrote that piece, I kid you not, now this is in the wake of January

00:25:04.620 6th, two years ago, multiple advisors to the company resigned within a 48-hour period.

00:25:10.900 And for me, that was the wake-up call.

00:25:12.580 But why?

00:25:13.580 Were they scared?

00:25:14.160 Because this was inappropriate.

00:25:15.420 Companies have a responsibility to play.

00:25:17.340 Corporate leaders, this was irresponsible speech on my behalf.

00:25:20.920 It was a, I mean, I'm not even here, I'm not even kidding you, threats to our democracy.

00:25:23.940 That was in one of the emails that I got that I'm fueling and fostering those threats.

00:25:29.000 And so I had to look in the mirror and I had to face a choice, right?

00:25:33.040 Was I going to speak freely as a citizen or was I going to speak through the filter of

00:25:40.080 corporate self-interest?

00:25:42.540 And to be honest, it was a multi-billion dollar company I had built.

00:25:45.840 I'm not going to have to work a day in my life if I don't want to.

00:25:47.940 And neither, you know, I mean, we're going to live the life we want to.

00:25:50.500 If I wasn't free to speak my mind, imagine if everyday Americans who have to worry about

00:25:56.840 putting food on the dinner table, what choice did they face?

00:25:58.900 So I made the choice and said, you know what?

00:26:00.520 I'm going to speak freely as a citizen, step aside from my job as a biotech CEO, led me

00:26:05.240 to the final stages of writing Woke Inc., published that book and published these other books.

00:26:09.500 But the thing that took me on that little detour was for the couple of years thereafter,

00:26:16.640 I was focused on fighting Woke.

00:26:19.960 Like this was, and it was personal to me and part of it was reactionary.

00:26:24.000 Right.

00:26:24.440 And I can empathize a little bit with, because that's part of what I see in Trump is it is

00:26:28.100 reactionary.

00:26:29.060 It is, it is vengeance driven, is driven with grievance.

00:26:32.340 Then I see the likes of the Ron DeSantis's pop up that say, okay, and you know, he's read

00:26:36.800 my book probably a couple of times over, et cetera.

00:26:39.700 Okay.

00:26:40.580 Whatever that is, I'm going to go do that because people seem to like that.

00:26:45.180 It was a bestselling book, right?

00:26:46.300 When I, when I wrote it, okay, that seems like a thing to do.

00:26:49.060 Let's go do that.

00:26:50.060 Whatever the, that is when you're doing it imitatively, you're like off by half.

00:26:53.960 And then you get outsmarted by the people on the other side, even though you get your

00:26:57.000 Twitter trend and your media hits.

00:26:58.640 And so this is what I see is like, you know, in the Trump version of it, authentic, really

00:27:04.200 interested in unapologetically going after the problem, outsider, not a politician, but

00:27:09.500 driven by vengeance, grievance, and let's knock the hell out of him and win this.

00:27:15.780 Ron DeSantis, cheap imitation or professional politician, career politician of any kind.

00:27:20.080 It's not specific to him.

00:27:20.860 It's true of most career politicians, cheap imitation.

00:27:23.320 That's cool.

00:27:23.960 I was going to talk about social security and Medicare reform 20 years ago, because that

00:27:27.580 was cool.

00:27:27.980 Now I'm going to switch to this because that's what's in, but then you're off by half and

00:27:31.200 you're not really getting the thing.

00:27:33.040 And so for me, I'm getting the actual thing, but myself was also driven by the war against

00:27:38.340 this cultural religion for the longest time without coming to the recognition that if

00:27:44.540 we really want to solve the actual problem for the country, it's going to involve more

00:27:49.660 than whack-a-mole.

00:27:50.260 Because even if we whack-woke, then you see climate religion pops up.

00:27:54.260 And so that means we have to go fill the void.

00:27:57.360 But that, to me, is woke.

00:27:59.880 Climate.

00:28:00.520 Oh, it is a manifestation of the same thing.

00:28:02.460 So let's do this.

00:28:03.440 Let me, you put out a video defining woke.

00:28:06.580 There was this thing happened with, who was the woman?

00:28:09.740 I don't even remember her.

00:28:10.120 Bethany Mandel, I believe it was.

00:28:11.160 Somebody.

00:28:11.640 We fit on the show.

00:28:12.080 And she gave, like, a very poor explanation of what woke meant when she was on the Hills

00:28:17.460 show, The Rising.

00:28:18.560 And then the left, of course, they seized upon it.

00:28:21.360 Yeah.

00:28:22.000 Went saying, ha ha, they don't know what they're talking about.

00:28:23.980 And then I see all these people make definitions for wokeness that are completely wrong.

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00:29:51.800 Did I mention that we care?

00:29:55.820 And still to this day, I argue with people, and it's exactly as you described it.

00:30:01.080 They're playing whack-a-mole.

00:30:01.960 Because I'll tell you what I see.

00:30:03.640 Someone comes to me, and we'll be on the show, we'll be on Tim Castile, and they'll say,

00:30:07.100 look, woke is, it's this critical race theory stuff, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:30:11.020 You're missing gender ideology when you say that.

00:30:13.080 And they say, well, these people are racist.

00:30:14.360 It's like, everybody is looking at one element that is within the woke sphere,

00:30:20.860 and then saying that's what woke is.

00:30:23.440 And then I heard your definition.

00:30:24.700 I will tell you my view of what woke is, and it's very, very simple.

00:30:30.540 It is the modern left liberal culture formed by social media algorithms.

00:30:39.120 To elaborate, it is characterized by cult-like adherence to their social orthodoxy.

00:30:45.040 That's it.

00:30:45.700 So if I want to dive deeper and explain what these things are, the reason why it's whack-a-mole,

00:30:51.960 the reason why there doesn't seem to be any kind of actual core element to what they believe

00:30:57.180 is, well, there is no faith structure.

00:30:59.980 There's no moral structure.

00:31:02.100 It is quite literally.

00:31:02.820 Right now, if I make a video on Instagram, what will get the most clicks?

00:31:09.700 Dylan Mulvaney, very big in the news, especially because of the Bud Light thing,

00:31:13.120 getting more and more famous by the minute, but controversially famous.

00:31:16.920 If you look at Dylan Mulvaney's TikTok history, what do you see?

00:31:19.800 The earliest videos were about animals.

00:31:21.900 Then it was about some Broadway stories.

00:31:24.180 Then it was I'm gay and with animals.

00:31:25.720 Then it was nature hikes.

00:31:27.120 These things weren't working.

00:31:29.120 Dylan Mulvaney comes out as non-binary, hundreds of thousands of views.

00:31:33.020 Dylan Mulvaney one-ups this into trans, a million views.

00:31:36.900 Dylan Mulvaney then hit the nail on the head with the hammer in the algorithm.

00:31:41.420 Day one of being a girl, day two of being a girl, to guarantee that people had a reason

00:31:46.660 to see the next degree being one-upped every day.

00:31:50.000 It is masterfully done.

00:31:51.840 Totally.

00:31:52.220 Whether intentionally or not.

00:31:52.960 Let me make an observation about that.

00:31:54.600 Because we're also having this discussion on the back of a week, a couple of weeks,

00:31:59.120 where there's been a lot of discussion about the role of AI and the dangers of AI in our

00:32:04.280 culture.

00:32:05.080 Oh, boy.

00:32:07.100 You want to know one of the dangers of AI you can just see right here today doesn't

00:32:11.660 have to do with robots with laser eyes.

00:32:13.500 Maybe we'll deal with that in the future.

00:32:16.300 This is actually AI.

00:32:18.740 Dylan Mulvaney is a creature of AI.

00:32:21.320 That is the robot with laser eyes.

00:32:23.280 Yes.

00:32:23.780 Because Skynet, you know, it's that we think that Twitter or TikTok or whatever is imitating

00:32:29.140 life.

00:32:30.220 This is life imitating TikTok in the real world because this was trained by the algorithm.

00:32:35.260 That is the robot.

00:32:36.460 Yes.

00:32:36.920 It is the robot.

00:32:37.800 So what's going on?

00:32:39.240 We said we have the hollow, the black hole, the void.

00:32:43.220 Something's going to prey on that void.

00:32:45.860 We have some sense that it might be a human being.

00:32:48.060 Well, some human beings do, some activists might.

00:32:50.840 We have some sense that it might be Larry Think or whatever.

00:32:54.120 The financial types that have actually financial objectives from being able to prey on those

00:32:58.200 insecurities to achieve their own ends.

00:33:00.560 AI itself is in part built on algorithmically exploiting, preying upon that vacuum.

00:33:08.180 And Mark Zuckerberg, as I was at Harvard a year behind Mark when he was a sophomore year,

00:33:12.220 it was my freshman year that's when he founded Facebook.

00:33:13.500 As you may remember, the predecessor to Facebook was hot or not, right?

00:33:19.220 Right.

00:33:19.660 Which is like, you know, you pick, you know, different pictures from the Harvard directory,

00:33:23.560 you send it to people via email and you just like, based on how rapidly you click, that

00:33:28.900 was actually part of the computer algorithm to be able to see what it would tell you about

00:33:33.060 the underlying people, about the person who was making the choice.

00:33:35.280 And the whole game was, I can use the speed with which you click on something to know more

00:33:42.580 about you and your soul than you know about yourself.

00:33:47.080 You know that Facebook knows when you poop, right?

00:33:49.600 Of course.

00:33:50.020 And it sounds silly, but it's, I'm not exaggerating.

00:33:52.220 I think it was like a Wall Street Journal article explaining that there are things we can't see

00:33:56.280 or understand that are tells that Facebook's algorithm, it will see that it finds after

00:34:04.340 tracking a billion people, if you begin to move at least 10 meters followed by stopping

00:34:13.540 a location within 10 feet of a restaurant, you are 30 minutes from going to the bathroom.

00:34:17.220 Like it can see things we can't see.

00:34:19.300 And so then it can take that data and apply it to you as an individual.

00:34:24.560 And then some will be tracking your data.

00:34:27.420 If you were to actually look at it, Facebook will be like, if you were looking at your

00:34:31.380 data tracking you, you'd be sitting here feeling totally fine.

00:34:34.540 And then Facebook sends you a message being like, according to our data, you'll get a

00:34:37.860 coffee in 45 minutes.

00:34:39.380 And you're like, I don't want a coffee.

00:34:40.340 That's weird.

00:34:41.060 45 minutes go by and you go, you know, I really do want a coffee.

00:34:43.320 Of course.

00:34:43.680 Yeah.

00:34:43.900 It knew before you knew.

00:34:45.060 Totally.

00:34:45.740 So this is it.

00:34:46.900 So there's two components to this.

00:34:48.400 I just want to be really clear in parsing this, right?

00:34:50.600 One is its ability to know something about you.

00:34:53.780 And I think that that's slightly different than the thing we're talking about with the

00:34:57.160 Dylan Mulvaney problem, where it's having a discursive impact on changing you.

00:35:03.080 So this is the equivalent of, okay, Facebook discovers that you were going to want that

00:35:07.380 coffee, but whether or not Facebook existed around that time, you were going to want that

00:35:09.940 coffee.

00:35:10.620 Yep.

00:35:11.140 The Dylan Mulvaney thing is different.

00:35:12.400 Dylan Mulvaney was not going to become a trans.

00:35:14.440 I have to get this straight.

00:35:16.040 I guess you would call her a trans woman.

00:35:18.600 Woman.

00:35:19.140 Yeah.

00:35:19.240 Okay.

00:35:19.520 Yeah.

00:35:19.700 Yeah.

00:35:19.820 I mean, it's just, you know, takes a second.

00:35:22.260 Yeah.

00:35:22.920 So trans woman would be that would be the distinction, right?

00:35:26.320 Somebody who's acting like a man, a male, a male.

00:35:30.560 So it's a trans woman.

00:35:31.440 Right.

00:35:32.200 So Dylan Mulvaney would not be a trans woman were it not for those TikTok algorithms,

00:35:37.800 because it's not like getting the coffee.

00:35:39.360 This was causally a change.

00:35:41.000 And that's, I think, a distinction.

00:35:42.000 So Matt Walsh has a viral, a couple of viral videos from the speech that he gave in, I

00:35:46.740 think it was New Mexico and a trans woman, a biological male who is, wants to be a woman

00:35:51.840 or identifies as such, asks him questions.

00:35:54.180 He responds with, how do you know you're a woman?

00:35:56.120 How did you find out you are a woman or you believe you are?

00:35:58.960 And this trans woman said, I was listening to a podcast from another trans woman describing

00:36:04.600 their experience.

00:36:05.360 And I said, that's my experience too.

00:36:08.240 And it was fascinating.

00:36:09.260 Matt Walsh then says, but that's not a woman.

00:36:11.380 It's a trans person.

00:36:12.220 You're not hearing a woman's experience.

00:36:14.300 Simply put, if this individual never heard that show, was never fed that show, was never

00:36:21.360 placed, the show was placed in front of them, they would not think they were a woman.

00:36:24.940 That's right.

00:36:25.320 It was given to them by the machine.

00:36:27.840 So the example I give to people, and I have this, it's funny that all of this is happening

00:36:32.580 right now.

00:36:33.340 The way I explained it five years ago, people think AI meant Skynet, meant robots, Terminators.

00:36:40.100 And I was like, why would it, what makes you think the AI wants to kill you?

00:36:45.180 No, I'll tell you what's going to happen.

00:36:46.660 It's going to be 50 years from now.

00:36:48.520 Everyone is going to be walking around and their clothing will be giant costumes of corncob.

00:36:54.120 Everyone will be dressed in giant corncob outfits.

00:36:57.100 They will have corncob hats.

00:36:58.740 Yeah.

00:36:58.980 The pens will look like corn and they will go to the restaurant and they'll order some

00:37:02.860 variation of corn and I'll tell you why.

00:37:04.620 To them, it'll all be normal cultural development.

00:37:06.740 But the AI sees that humans put a ton of production into corn, so humans must like corn, so feed

00:37:13.940 them more corn content because humans like corn.

00:37:16.900 After 20 years of this, everyone will only just see corn because the AI has been feeding

00:37:22.380 them nothing but corn content.

00:37:24.280 Now, of course, as it turns out, several years on, it wasn't corn, in fact.

00:37:27.960 It was hollow leftist ideologies misapplied to modern mission.

00:37:33.580 I see where you're going with that.

00:37:34.480 That's exactly the essence of what's going on.

00:37:37.720 So I don't think it's the total explanation.

00:37:40.320 I think there are financial forces.

00:37:41.760 I think there are other cynical forces, some that are authentic ideologues.

00:37:45.040 But it goes back to that deeper theme.

00:37:47.960 All of us have some version of that vacuum in us.

00:37:50.700 We're human beings.

00:37:52.040 But we're able to fill that vacuum to a place where it's going to use the immunology analogy,

00:37:56.940 where you're able to immunize yourself against that external virus.

00:38:02.360 Let's put it that way.

00:38:03.900 The problem, what happens right now is when you're that empty, be it the combination of

00:38:09.460 financial forces, ideological forces, or even algorithmic forces, that leaves you more vulnerable

00:38:14.900 to exploitation.

00:38:15.340 Imagine that's the Dylan Mulvaney problem in the country.

00:38:18.280 Again, the question is, what do we do about it?

00:38:21.460 Right?

00:38:21.780 I don't think the problem is really, it's symptomatic therapy at best to go after the AI, to go after

00:38:27.280 the algorithm.

00:38:28.220 Now, I'd say, I'm kind of, I don't know where you are on this.

00:38:31.480 I'm, among other reasons for this reason, against social media, especially addictive

00:38:37.300 social media usage.

00:38:38.240 And we can define what social media is in kids under the age of 16.

00:38:41.500 I'm half kidding, but.

00:38:42.120 Under the age of 16, let's sort of, because kids aren't adults.

00:38:47.200 And part of being an adult on the flip side is you're free to make bad choices.

00:38:50.120 That's part of what freedom means.

00:38:51.340 So adults, I don't, I'm not in favor of this ban stuff.

00:38:54.180 But under the age of 16, keep it out of their hands.

00:38:56.780 But, but the deeper question is, even for adults, the right answer isn't to go after

00:39:01.460 the thing that exploits it.

00:39:02.600 Because if it's AI today, it'll be somebody else with the financial incentive tomorrow.

00:39:06.640 It's to fill the void with something more meaningful.

00:39:11.500 That is, I think the number one calling should be the number one calling of the conservative

00:39:18.260 movement in this country.

00:39:20.060 And I don't think that vengeance and grievance are going to be sufficient.

00:39:23.900 It's not that I don't think they're justified.

00:39:25.260 I think they are justified.

00:39:26.780 In many cases, if you're Donald Trump, it's absolutely justified, but that's not going

00:39:30.240 to be sufficient to immunize us against the actual force.

00:39:34.860 In fact, that might become its own force.

00:39:36.500 You're right.

00:39:36.760 And I agree.

00:39:37.820 And I think of the space race, some, some unifying tasks the country engages in that makes everybody

00:39:44.560 like this is awesome.

00:39:45.580 The problem is.

00:39:47.220 It could be that.

00:39:48.000 With, with, with the algorithmic manipulation, there is no incentive for what we would call,

00:39:56.320 describe as the left or the woke to actually entertain a unified front.

00:40:01.980 Because, uh, uh, for example, this is, we had a destiny on Tim Castile.

00:40:06.560 He's the omniliberal.

00:40:07.820 He's a centrist left-leaning individual.

00:40:10.140 The left calls him far right.

00:40:11.420 It's funny.

00:40:12.340 But, uh, he pointed this out.

00:40:13.600 He said, who's this guy?

00:40:14.560 Sorry, I didn't know.

00:40:15.080 Destiny.

00:40:15.740 He's one of the most prominent leftist streamers.

00:40:18.240 Okay.

00:40:18.620 But he's actually a moderate guy.

00:40:19.600 He would talk to you and have an honest conversation.

00:40:21.020 He probably is on the facts.

00:40:22.220 He'd disagree with you.

00:40:22.840 I like that, actually.

00:40:24.540 Yeah.

00:40:24.960 And I think he's a good dude.

00:40:25.960 I think he's a good dude.

00:40:26.600 I think people on the right obviously roll their eyes at him and stuff, but at least

00:40:29.260 he's willing to talk.

00:40:30.260 But he made a great point.

00:40:31.600 He said, the right will see something that they think is not a good thing, like children

00:40:36.380 getting sex changes.

00:40:37.880 And instead of the left either ignoring it, saying, sure, they immediately come out and

00:40:44.340 say, no, it's a good thing.

00:40:46.100 So he's like, you have this issue where I think in terms of mastectomies among minors,

00:40:52.260 it's in the thousands, a couple thousand young, uh, uh, pre-pubescent girls get pubescent,

00:40:59.120 I think, because they're developing, um, in the past four or five years, I think the

00:41:02.820 number may be around 2000 have gotten double mastectomies.

00:41:05.600 And he was like, not a whole lot of people, right?

00:41:09.280 Still a problem.

00:41:10.980 Why did the left decide to come out and say, it's a good thing and we should encourage

00:41:14.320 it instead of just being like, let the right complain about this thing.

00:41:17.700 That's not, that's not an issue to us.

00:41:19.220 Instead, they've mounted this whole national campaign around defending sex changes for

00:41:24.440 children, which is just insane.

00:41:26.820 Well, I think much of the right would not have been complaining about it were it not

00:41:29.900 for the epidemic explosion of these gender mutilated, genital mutilation surgeries across

00:41:37.380 the country.

00:41:38.100 Right.

00:41:38.340 And so this is the issue.

00:41:39.400 Uh, when it comes to puberty blockers, I think it's like 14,000.

00:41:42.420 When it comes to cross sex hormones, it's actually much greater around 40 or 50,000.

00:41:45.740 And then when it comes to outright surgeries, it's in the low thousands, maybe between

00:41:49.640 1500 and still in the low thousands.

00:41:51.240 Yes.

00:41:51.640 Okay.

00:41:52.160 So cumulatively, we're talking about like 70,000 high tens of thousands per year.

00:41:57.040 No, no, no.

00:41:57.600 All in the past four or five years.

00:41:58.940 Yeah.

00:41:59.300 Yeah.

00:41:59.440 So right.

00:42:00.560 Tens of like a 10,000 or so.

00:42:02.220 High tens of thousands.

00:42:02.620 Yeah.

00:42:03.000 No, no, no, no.

00:42:03.680 Tens of thousands per year.

00:42:05.040 No, no, no.

00:42:05.440 About 10,000 per year.

00:42:06.580 About 10,000 per year.

00:42:07.400 Right.

00:42:07.920 Totally in total.

00:42:09.000 Yeah.

00:42:09.260 So over the past five years, we're looking at maybe 70,000 who have been on drugs or surgeries.

00:42:13.000 And so with 330 million people, you know, it's not a, it's not a large percentage, but

00:42:19.620 still a problem, still something that should be called out and say, Hey, we shouldn't allow

00:42:23.440 this to expand.

00:42:24.380 We want to stop the fire before it spreads.

00:42:26.160 But instead of the left simply being like, sure, I guess.

00:42:31.020 Yeah.

00:42:31.280 They could have come out and been like, do you really believe that's big of a problem?

00:42:35.320 Fine.

00:42:35.780 Whatever.

00:42:36.280 We'll ban it.

00:42:36.860 I mean, I think you're wasting your time.

00:42:38.740 Instead, they came out full force and said, you're wrong and we should have more of it.

00:42:43.340 And so this is the issue.

00:42:45.080 If the right came out, I mean, let's just put it this way.

00:42:48.460 Conservatives came out and said, children shouldn't have sex changes.

00:42:52.300 And instead of just going, okay, they went, no, they should.

00:42:56.400 So if we were to come out when, when Elon Musk is building Starship, I am so inspired

00:43:02.100 by this.

00:43:02.460 I think Elon's fantastic.

00:43:03.400 I love the space program stuff.

00:43:05.240 You know, Donald Trump's talking about Artemis going to Mars.

00:43:07.260 They insult it and they, and they, and they say these things that make no sense.

00:43:11.740 When, when Elon Musk launched the car into space, they say a billionaire just wasted

00:43:15.560 billions of dollars sending all this money into space.

00:43:18.660 How stupid we could feed the hungry.

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00:44:46.140 Did I mention that we care?

00:44:47.440 And then what did we hear from the right?

00:44:52.400 The money spent stays on Earth.

00:44:54.600 He didn't blast a billion dollars in outer space to be destroyed.

00:44:57.480 Yep.

00:44:57.820 They built a spaceship here, employing people here who get the money here, who buy food

00:45:01.920 here, and then they launch a spaceship to develop new technologies and make life better

00:45:06.300 for people.

00:45:06.620 But it doesn't matter.

00:45:08.520 They have to oppose whatever it is you want.

00:45:11.620 And so the challenge I see with the culture war is no matter what we say, no matter what

00:45:16.220 we focus on, there is a chaotic and destructive force that is incentivized to oppose and destroy

00:45:21.380 anything we want to endeavor for.

00:45:23.680 I agree with all of that.

00:45:25.900 This is an astute and you're playing the role that you should play in the ecosystem, which

00:45:31.620 is being at the bleeding edge.

00:45:33.380 And you're so good at this, getting to the bottom and getting the essence of what's going

00:45:38.220 on.

00:45:39.200 The question is, if somebody is going to step in to run for president of the United States,

00:45:43.340 the job and the calling is, OK, how do I lead?

00:45:48.380 And this is a question.

00:45:50.020 It's not something we can take for granted anymore.

00:45:51.900 One nation on the table.

00:45:55.420 That's the question on the table.

00:45:56.420 So how do we lead one nation through that challenge?

00:46:00.640 And it is a challenge.

00:46:01.580 Now, we've faced other challenges in our national history before.

00:46:04.000 I don't think, I think this is a real challenge.

00:46:06.660 I don't think it is quite yet the greatest challenge that America has faced in its nearly

00:46:11.100 250 year history, but it's a real challenge.

00:46:13.820 I disagree.

00:46:14.400 You think it is the greatest?

00:46:15.560 Fine.

00:46:16.580 It's a big challenge is all I would say.

00:46:18.200 It's a big challenge, right?

00:46:19.360 We've faced a civil war before.

00:46:21.380 This would maybe rank at least behind that in my book.

00:46:25.620 You think it's even deeper than the civil war?

00:46:28.580 The precursor to the civil war.

00:46:31.420 I think we are in a precursor to something much hotter and much more dangerous.

00:46:36.800 And I hope, I don't know how great the probability is.

00:46:39.140 The civil war is at least geographically distributed, whereas this is more like Ireland.

00:46:42.880 So you said one nation.

00:46:44.600 We're not one nation.

00:46:45.740 Well, I think it's on the table.

00:46:47.080 I think that is a question.

00:46:47.820 I think we can't take for granted that we're one nation.

00:46:49.900 I'm running for president because I want to make sure we're one nation on the other side

00:46:53.940 of it.

00:46:54.500 And I think that ship has sailed and there's no point.

00:46:56.400 No, there's no point.

00:46:57.240 There's a point.

00:46:57.900 I'm done.

00:46:58.380 Right.

00:46:58.640 I don't need to do this.

00:46:59.480 But there is.

00:47:00.120 There is.

00:47:00.380 There's no point.

00:47:00.860 But the issue is this.

00:47:01.820 We had Stephen Marsh on the show.

00:47:04.620 He wrote a book about the next civil war.

00:47:06.840 He believes we're also heading in this direction, but he is more on the left's perspective, though

00:47:10.660 he thinks he's objective.

00:47:11.680 And in the middle, I had to explain to him he's not.

00:47:14.580 And the reason why is he was wrong on so many of his facts because he's getting his views

00:47:18.800 from the corporate press.

00:47:19.680 Whereas, you know, we here at Tim Kesson, I'm sure you have a balanced absorption of

00:47:24.700 information.

00:47:25.160 Take everything.

00:47:25.560 Yeah.

00:47:25.740 But he said, within the United States, there is a multicultural democracy and a constitutional

00:47:30.580 republic and they cannot coexist.

00:47:32.920 And I said, brilliantly said, and you are 100% correct.

00:47:36.860 The multicultural democracy believes that they have a right to storm into a Capitol building

00:47:40.720 in Tennessee and then change the rules.

00:47:43.240 And when they do that, it's democracy.

00:47:44.860 But if the right tries to storm into the Capitol in D.C., it's fascism.

00:47:49.040 They clearly, there are two distinct systems here.

00:47:52.960 The right tends to favor a constitutional republic, a representative democratic system, and the

00:47:58.260 left thinks majority rules.

00:48:00.620 So if you look at Canada, they are dominated by multicultural democracy.

00:48:04.480 The United States has these two ideologies fighting amongst each other.

00:48:08.700 So let me make sure you make a pause and make a really interesting observation because

00:48:12.420 capitalism fits into this picture.

00:48:13.820 Yeah.

00:48:14.260 In an interesting and unintuitive way, right?

00:48:16.480 Because the paean, the classic, you know, paean to capitalism is it's the best known

00:48:21.220 system to mankind to lift people up from poverty.

00:48:23.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:48:24.120 All that.

00:48:24.500 I agree with it.

00:48:25.140 But I'm going to go to a different dimension on this.

00:48:27.520 Tocqueville, actually, Alexis Tocqueville traveled this country.

00:48:30.160 Sometimes it takes a foreigner's perspective to see something about a nation that you can't

00:48:33.840 see in yourself as he did, what, some 160 odd years ago when he was in this country.

00:48:37.640 He made a similar observation.

00:48:38.960 So your guy, who's the guy who sat with you?

00:48:40.840 Stephen Marshall.

00:48:41.340 Stephen Marshall.

00:48:41.880 Not as original as he might think.

00:48:43.240 I'm not giving credit, but Alexis Tocqueville said the same thing.

00:48:46.520 Yeah.

00:48:46.660 He said that a diverse, multicultural democracy, and this is the way Tocqueville described it,

00:48:51.780 but for he might as well meant constitutional republic too.

00:48:54.080 He meant the two as part and parcel of the same.

00:48:56.720 A multicultural, diverse, divided version of it cannot stand for more than a generation or two unless, and this is the key, unless, unless there are apolitical sanctuaries free from partisan identity politics that bind those groups together.

00:49:20.060 He called them intermediary institutions.

00:49:22.560 We could talk about churches.

00:49:24.560 We could talk about civic life and the Lions Club and the Rotary Club.

00:49:28.560 I mean, these are the kinds of civic associations of the kind that Tocqueville had in mind.

00:49:32.640 But the real one that did the job was actually free market capitalism in the country, right?

00:49:39.020 So that was what brought people together by keeping that as an apolitical sanctuary.

00:49:44.400 And that's manifest in the form of baseballs, football stadiums, workplaces in this country, biotech labs, whatever it is, spaces where people could come together regardless of whether they were black or white or Democrat or Republican.

00:49:59.560 And when you lose that glue, right, that's the basis for solidarity.

00:50:05.380 When that's gone, that's when the diverse, multicultural democracy can't stand.

00:50:08.960 So in a certain way, capitalism was the role of capitalism in all of this, in this discussion about the Republic, wasn't just the thing you and I even talked about in the beginning, the rugged individual realizing our version of the dream, making money, growing an economy.

00:50:22.880 Yeah, yeah, all that.

00:50:24.420 But it's also part of the glue, the apolitical, including even identitarian apolitical space that binds us together.

00:50:31.880 And that's when, when those spheres themselves became infected with the throes and travails of identity and partisan politics, that's when we go back to that breaking point.

00:50:45.600 And that's why I've been so focused on these issues and ESG and everything else.

00:50:48.620 Why do they matter?

00:50:50.000 This is why they matter.

00:50:51.340 They matter for whether or not we have a country left at the end.

00:50:52.980 This is interesting.

00:50:53.800 Have you ever watched the show Bullshit, Penn and Teller's Bullshit?

00:50:56.480 I have not, no.

00:50:57.480 It's such a good show, but it is itself Bullshit.

00:51:00.360 They do this thing where they interview people of a certain idea and then debunk it.

00:51:06.920 So like, you know, people who believe in Sasquatch, they'll like sit down and they'll be like, here's why it's bullshit.

00:51:11.320 And much in the tradition of Houdini, he tried to debunk things.

00:51:15.360 But there is a great scene where it's Penn and Teller and they're sitting down there eating.

00:51:20.460 And he's, I forgot exactly why he's talking, but he's talking about how war ended between England and France.

00:51:24.900 And he said they were fighting for hundreds of years and good reason for good reason until one day one guy realized they would make more money if they weren't fighting.

00:51:35.480 And so as trade lines improved, war diminished.

00:51:39.720 And all of a sudden there was less desire to fight because they were getting rich off each other.

00:51:44.640 Yeah.

00:51:44.780 Simply put, in the United States, as what you're describing, I see it making a lot of sense.

00:51:50.740 You've got someone who is Muslim.

00:51:53.300 You've got someone who is Christian.

00:51:54.700 Right.

00:51:55.160 And throughout history, various Abrahamic facts have fought, even within their own religions.

00:52:00.520 Sure.

00:52:01.220 You know, Sunni and Shiite and things like that.

00:52:03.300 In the United States, they say, I don't want to fight you.

00:52:06.880 I'll trade with you.

00:52:07.600 Yeah, because I'm rich and if I fight, I lose my mansion.

00:52:11.860 I lose my infinity pool.

00:52:13.000 But now what's happened is capitalism is going woke.

00:52:15.820 Capitalism itself is corrupted.

00:52:17.200 It's like it's like a spread of a virus.

00:52:18.900 And now people are saying, like with your company, if I don't join the fight, I'll lose my infinity pool.

00:52:24.960 I'll lose my Ferrari.

00:52:26.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:52:27.160 And so we've lost the glue itself has been dissolved by the thing that's dissolved the bonds between us in partisan politics.

00:52:35.520 Whereas if we have these other areas to say, OK, we're going to fight like hell over here and we're going to be diverse as hell over here.

00:52:42.400 But here we're still more or less the same.

00:52:45.140 It doesn't matter.

00:52:45.580 We're going to cheer from the baseball stadiums and football stadiums of the country because you don't have fight for social justice written in the end zone, which is what you see in the NFL or whatever today.

00:52:53.720 Right.

00:52:54.120 Fight racism or whatever it says.

00:52:56.400 And not to say that, I mean, what's really underneath that is actually a divisive agenda.

00:53:00.500 And it's not actually about fighting racism.

00:53:01.780 It's about signaling your one-sided political social virtue.

00:53:04.420 That's when the society crumbles.

00:53:06.780 Now, I got a couple of things to say about this.

00:53:08.360 OK.

00:53:09.680 Capitalism doesn't have to be the only such domain.

00:53:14.160 Right.

00:53:14.540 I think that part of what we've lost is a political spaces more broadly in Israel, for example, what brought different divided communities together was shared civic service, military service.

00:53:28.580 And actually, the fact that Orthodox Jews were exempted ended up becoming the exception that proved the rule.

00:53:36.020 It actually created more division between non-Orthodox Jewish communities and Orthodox Jews, even as it fostered greater coherence between Jews and non-Jews, all of whom were actually required to serve in the military together.

00:53:50.520 And so I don't think – and I think that there's a ripe conversation to be had about the revival of civic service and civic duty in this country.

00:53:59.280 Starship troopers.

00:54:01.160 Potentially.

00:54:01.880 Yeah.

00:54:02.240 Potentially we could talk about it.

00:54:03.260 Service guarantees citizenship.

00:54:04.800 But I think that – and we could talk about that as a precondition for voting.

00:54:08.660 I mean there's a deep philosophical conversation to have here.

00:54:11.760 But the tide of the conversation we're having about capitalism – and nobody thinks about capitalism in that light.

00:54:15.660 Capitalism plays that role too.

00:54:17.800 Side, side note.

00:54:19.560 I think that works within the society.

00:54:22.440 I think that the irony is that this trade and be my brother mentality, that's part of what got us into the hole that we're in with China.

00:54:31.700 Because China duped us into actually saying that, hey, we'll have solidarity through trade when in fact they use like mercantilism on the other side.

00:54:40.540 So I actually – as I want to – just as an interest of clarifying my position on this, as much as I believe that that's true within a diverse body politic and that capitalism, among other things, other apolitical civic spaces, even civic duty and civic service playing the role of glue, I think that we got duped into the siren song of thinking that applied to international relations when in fact in certain cases, particularly in China's case, it didn't.

00:55:08.100 We could spend two hours on that.

00:55:09.180 We can if you want, but that's a separate topic.

00:55:12.360 But coming back to part of putting the pieces back together in this country, and I do think that domestic fortitude, cultural fortitude is a precondition for both economic growth and achieving our geopolitical objectives.

00:55:26.140 So that's why people are like, oh, how can you be a serious candidate if you're only focused on these cultural warships?

00:55:30.840 Answers, I'm not actually.

00:55:32.760 I think that that's just the – cultural fortitude is the foundation for reviving our economy and reviving our standing on the global stage.

00:55:38.500 But why am I so focused on that?

00:55:40.980 I think that it's achievable.

00:55:42.680 And I think if we're able to recreate some of those apolitical spaces to create civic cohesion and solidarity, fill that hunger for purpose and meaning, relieve the constraints that teach people you can't talk openly.

00:55:54.980 Actually, one of the things that binds us together is indeed our ability to talk openly.

00:55:58.320 Those are the beginning and building blocks of revolving – of reviving a common sense of cause, purpose, meaning, and a cultural core in this country that are going to come back to – forget the Democrats because they're not doing it.

00:56:13.340 But even in the Republican Party, no one's really rising to that occasion.

00:56:17.080 You know, you're talking to train this in America first terms.

00:56:21.260 I'm all in.

00:56:22.980 I'm like all in, unapologetic America first conservative.

00:56:26.200 You don't call yourself conservative.

00:56:27.080 I do.

00:56:27.700 I call myself a conservative.

00:56:28.540 But to put America first, we have to rediscover what America is.

00:56:35.260 And if we do that, we're going to actually have the moral foundation to go even further, far further than Donald Trump did even with the America first agenda.

00:56:46.660 And so that's my pitch to the America first one was this stuff isn't some sort of abstract philosophical stuff.

00:56:50.080 Now, it's the precondition to go further than version 1.0.

00:56:54.800 And I like where version 1.0, Donald Trump.

00:56:56.820 Version 1.0 went far.

00:56:57.920 You want version 2.0, you want to go further, you got to restore this moral common core.

00:57:02.360 We have a – excuse me – common theme.

00:57:06.640 We'll bring on conservative women onto Tim Guest IRL.

00:57:10.160 And they tend to say repeal the 19th Amendment, which is granting the women the right to vote.

00:57:16.520 And the argument is –

00:57:17.180 I didn't know that they – I didn't know you've covered that ground here.

00:57:19.760 I mean conservative – it comes up quite a bit because it's always the guys being like, no, I'm fine with women voting.

00:57:25.360 But the women, conservative women are like, nope, women overwhelmingly vote for policies that are social-based, emotional-based, and destructive in the long run.

00:57:34.020 So just take away their rights to vote.

00:57:35.640 And my view of it is like, well, look, if there's an election and you're losing two to one, you might come out and say take away their right to vote that I get.

00:57:44.600 But they are women themselves.

00:57:45.800 And I was talking to my girlfriend about it, and she said they're wrong.

00:57:49.460 Repealing the 19th doesn't solve the problem.

00:57:51.560 The issue is we got rid of land ownership requirements and civic requirements.

00:57:56.800 And she actually asked me – she was like, why did we get rid of land ownership requirements?

00:58:00.460 And I was like, well, I mean, I think that makes sense.

00:58:02.200 It's like you get a building – you get a growing city with a million people in it, and people aren't all owning the building they're living in.

00:58:08.440 They still have to participate in society and have a right to vote.

00:58:11.380 And to which her reply was yes, but there's got to be some civic duty to which you are participating before you can vote.

00:58:17.520 And if men and women were both doing it, they'd have more skin in the game, and it doesn't matter what their gender is.

00:58:22.060 If you want to have skin in the game, you've got to play in the game.

00:58:24.860 Actually, funny thing – you've got to play in the game, you've got to have skin in the game, actually.

00:58:27.640 That's really the right way to think about this.

00:58:30.660 It's the funniest point about the men and women distinction.

00:58:33.220 You probably don't remember that you did this.

00:58:34.980 I bet you did.

00:58:35.460 I did by the age of 25, too.

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01:00:01.600 Did I mention that we care?

01:00:06.180 Civic, sort of a civil service registration.

01:00:09.940 Selective service.

01:00:10.240 Selective service registration with the military.

01:00:11.720 At 18.

01:00:12.420 Between 18 and 25.

01:00:13.380 You got to do it as a man.

01:00:14.320 You don't actually require it of women in this country.

01:00:16.400 One of the, it's a small tweak.

01:00:17.500 I actually would require it of women in this country too, because if you're going to vote,

01:00:20.140 you got to have the ability.

01:00:21.240 Let me pause right there.

01:00:22.560 My argument, we were talking about this.

01:00:24.080 I said, the 19th amendment is unconstitutional in that it violates the 14th amendment, equality

01:00:30.420 under the law.

01:00:31.160 You cannot grant a voting privilege to a group of people without there being equality under

01:00:38.980 the law.

01:00:39.120 So technically, I'm being a bit hyperbolic.

01:00:40.940 Yeah, we could probably go around a rabbit hole that I could probably tell you isn't

01:00:45.900 merited going down on the legal technicalities of that debate, but I understand the spirit

01:00:49.960 of what you're saying.

01:00:50.880 But let's use that 19th amendment because it's just going to distract a lot of people

01:00:53.840 because once you get into the gender debate, people lose their ability to think clearly.

01:00:58.520 There's a few topics that do this to people.

01:01:00.820 Trump is one of them.

01:01:02.040 Gender debate is one of them.

01:01:03.060 They just lose their ability to think logically once said topic has been introduced, where

01:01:07.800 we're actually kind of over the flame of a pretty important topic.

01:01:10.080 So let's get to that.

01:01:11.480 Let's get into it, which is this idea of having skin in the game to be a citizen.

01:01:14.860 I mean, that's really what we're talking about here, right?

01:01:16.840 It's not even about men and women.

01:01:18.300 Skin in the game to be a citizen.

01:01:20.860 So I'll tell you this.

01:01:22.340 I mean, I wrote about this in Nation of Victims.

01:01:25.680 I'm probably going to get myself in a little bit of trouble here because I promised myself this

01:01:28.820 was not going to be something we're going to talk about in the presidential campaign,

01:01:32.200 but it keeps coming back to me.

01:01:36.520 And I'm not promising to you in any way that this is part of my presidential platform,

01:01:41.540 but I'm just telling you it's on my mind.

01:01:45.760 I think that we need to bring back that concept in some way of civic duty as a precondition

01:01:52.760 for full capital C citizenship.

01:01:56.860 I don't think it's land ownership.

01:01:58.380 Let's pause real quick.

01:01:59.200 I want to make sure people clarify the concepts behind this when we reference Starship Troopers.

01:02:04.480 In the Starship Troopers universe, the saying is service guarantees citizenship.

01:02:09.760 There are citizens and civilians.

01:02:11.920 Civilians are afforded full rights under the law, free speech, free enterprise, all of those

01:02:16.560 protections, but they don't vote or run for office unless you provide two years of service

01:02:23.840 to the community in some fashion.

01:02:26.000 Now, it's not military.

01:02:27.180 It's just some form of community service.

01:02:29.760 And then you are granted citizenship where you can now vote and run for office.

01:02:36.120 So I'm pretty they're pretty close to the flame on there.

01:02:40.380 They're right over truth on this one.

01:02:42.080 I am very sympathetic and then we're going to go into some some objections to it.

01:02:46.740 But this is important.

01:02:48.980 We're not having this conversation in this country and we should.

01:02:52.360 And I'll tell you, you don't have to go to Starship Troopers.

01:02:54.120 You don't know where you can go.

01:02:55.640 Go to you brought you brought up 14th Amendment.

01:02:57.840 Let's look at Section one of the 14th Amendment.

01:03:01.000 Privileges and immunities of citizenship.

01:03:03.300 Just pause for that a second.

01:03:05.180 Those are two different things.

01:03:07.400 The privileges and immunities.

01:03:11.040 These people knew what they were talking about.

01:03:12.640 OK, who are writing that writing the 14th Amendment.

01:03:15.360 So so there's the immunities of citizenship, which say that the police can't show up at

01:03:20.040 this, you know, let's let's assume the Constitution can't show up at that place where we're having

01:03:25.780 this conversation right now and say, I'm going to enter without a search warrant.

01:03:29.280 We're we're we're skating on thin ice.

01:03:31.100 They've done it.

01:03:31.520 We're we're skating on thin ice as a country right now, more broadly.

01:03:34.800 But nonetheless, put that to one side.

01:03:36.280 The way it's supposed to work is that's an immunity of citizenship.

01:03:39.560 No matter who you are, whether or not you've served or whatever, the police can't show up

01:03:43.940 at your door and say, I'm going to search you without a search warrant.

01:03:47.180 There's certain basic things.

01:03:48.660 The government can't take away the money in your bank account because you said something.

01:03:53.360 I'm picking these intentionally.

01:03:54.440 Right.

01:03:54.920 Right.

01:03:55.300 Because it's it's it's a satire on it's a satire on the absurdum.

01:03:58.700 Right.

01:03:58.860 I'm doing I'm picking extreme examples.

01:04:01.020 Well, those things are so extreme that they'd be unthinkable.

01:04:03.260 Yeah.

01:04:03.780 So that's a separate that's part of the reason we need to fix this stuff.

01:04:06.460 Yeah.

01:04:07.020 But the government can't take away money in your bank account just because you said something

01:04:10.720 the government didn't like.

01:04:11.580 You can't do that in this country.

01:04:12.460 That's an immunity of citizenship.

01:04:13.680 Side note, central bank, digital currencies.

01:04:14.980 That's where we're going.

01:04:16.260 Discussion for a little bit later.

01:04:17.360 But that's an immunity of citizenship that is different from the privileges of citizenship.

01:04:26.540 Right.

01:04:26.840 What is a privilege of citizenship?

01:04:28.840 Voting is a privilege of citizenship.

01:04:32.100 This shocks a lot of people.

01:04:33.340 It shouldn't shock a lot of people.

01:04:34.520 Won't shock you because you clearly know the 19th Amendment and the 14th Amendment because

01:04:39.020 you brought both of them up.

01:04:40.540 There is no constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

01:04:44.140 People don't know that.

01:04:45.220 Doesn't show up anywhere in the Constitution.

01:04:46.320 Do you think that was an accident?

01:04:49.300 Do you think the people who thought through the greatest known protection of human liberties

01:04:54.980 enshrined in the Bill of Rights and in the amendments that followed didn't think of that

01:04:59.940 fact?

01:05:00.300 No, no, no, no.

01:05:01.120 They thought about it.

01:05:01.980 They were fairly elitist actually.

01:05:02.840 They were.

01:05:03.760 But this was intentional is my point.

01:05:05.340 It's an intentional choice.

01:05:06.760 There's a lot of reasons why.

01:05:07.920 But there's a productive reason, which is that there are civic duties that are and ought

01:05:16.980 to be preconditions for full citizenship.

01:05:19.940 You know, there used to be, right?

01:05:21.200 Yeah.

01:05:21.440 So back in the suffragette movement, people seem to think that you had suffragettes being

01:05:28.380 like, women should vote.

01:05:29.320 What a noble cause.

01:05:30.300 Yeah.

01:05:30.440 And then you had kooky conservative women who are like, no, women don't make decisions.

01:05:34.220 The reality was the women who opposed suffrage were actually saying, read the literature.

01:05:39.920 I don't want to join the military or work in the fire brigade because back then when you

01:05:46.540 voted, they could call you up for volunteer fire service and you could be drafted.

01:05:51.340 It's conscription.

01:05:52.660 And men were.

01:05:54.100 There was World War I.

01:05:55.180 There was World War II.

01:05:56.260 And you had to go fight.

01:05:58.180 And the women said, leave us out of that.

01:06:00.840 And so this is why I said that the 19th violated the 14th in that they granted a privilege of

01:06:07.540 citizenship to a faction of people while rejecting the civic duty requirements required of other

01:06:12.860 people.

01:06:13.700 So my view right now is.

01:06:15.060 Which are effectively baked into the preconditions of citizenship.

01:06:17.620 Now, we never made that explicit.

01:06:19.840 That's all right.

01:06:20.560 Forget the legal argument.

01:06:21.920 We never made that explicit.

01:06:22.820 It does say privileges and immunities, but they gave us the breadcrumbs.

01:06:25.640 I think we live in a moment where you want to do something bold.

01:06:28.040 Let's connect the dots.

01:06:29.680 Let's actually say the thing.

01:06:32.340 That.

01:06:33.440 You can live in this country as a lowercase citizen or civilian.

01:06:37.540 Starship Troopers version and have all of the immunities of citizenship.

01:06:43.380 You're protected just by in virtue of being in this country.

01:06:45.800 Yep.

01:06:46.540 But if you want to be part of this, of the, of the class of people who decides who runs

01:06:51.180 the country.

01:06:53.440 Great.

01:06:54.260 It's open to anybody.

01:06:55.280 Table stakes is some sense of living your civic duty, demonstrating that.

01:06:59.720 But that would change a lot for our country.

01:07:01.660 I think for the better.

01:07:02.720 Well, so I think for the better.

01:07:04.060 I've heard the merits of this.

01:07:05.040 We've argued it and the counter argument I've got is the woke people.

01:07:09.240 Yes.

01:07:09.580 Yes.

01:07:09.820 I was going to go there.

01:07:10.760 They would, they would be the ones who would sign up first thing and take control and then

01:07:14.400 lock and then block you out.

01:07:15.620 Anytime you have an administrative apparatus and a bureaucratic apparatus, it lends itself

01:07:19.940 to capture.

01:07:20.780 We've seen that movie time and again, which is, I got to admit, we're having a philosophical

01:07:24.600 conversation.

01:07:25.280 It actually, the idea shows up as a thought experiment in my second book as well.

01:07:28.380 Well, this is the number one reason why I've stopped short of yet.

01:07:34.700 And I will say as yet making it part of, you know, I don't know how close you've been

01:07:39.740 following my campaign, but we're pretty darn specific with, with very specific commitments

01:07:44.040 and proposals.

01:07:44.820 I have not yet made this one and I'm thinking through it.

01:07:48.260 I'm really thinking through it now, but that is the number one objection.

01:07:50.660 And this is why I come back to, then the purpose has to be defined because this is why when

01:07:55.800 you say some form of service, that's when it gets squishy.

01:07:58.460 I'm, I'm, but let me just say I am for it.

01:08:01.020 And I'll tell you why, what we've seen consistently.

01:08:04.640 I'm for it if we can implement it is where I'm at.

01:08:06.620 Yes.

01:08:07.240 And the reason I think we can, yeah.

01:08:09.040 No, I don't know.

01:08:10.080 I'm saying I'm, I'm, I agree.

01:08:11.680 The reason why I'm not concerned about woke capture of the institution is that the woke

01:08:16.340 require ignorant masses.

01:08:17.760 The problem with, it's that, uh, who had that famous quote?

01:08:21.580 The problem with the ignorant is that they're so confident and the, you know, the more apt

01:08:25.900 are unsure of themselves.

01:08:27.720 Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that, but I like that.

01:08:29.360 Yeah.

01:08:29.520 I mean, I'm, I'm butchering the quote, but it's something of that effect.

01:08:32.700 And, uh, or I can just cite the Dunning-Kruger effect, right?

01:08:35.760 People who are stupid aren't smart enough to know they're stupid.

01:08:37.700 Yeah.

01:08:38.020 And people who are smart are questioning themselves constantly.

01:08:41.640 But, um, when you, when you look at conservatives, they say, why should I vote for you?

01:08:47.180 And you got to make a strong argument.

01:08:49.000 When you look at Democrats, they go, who am I voting for?

01:08:52.420 Yeah.

01:08:52.760 Check the box.

01:08:53.980 You get rid of that.

01:08:55.040 You introduce this requirement.

01:08:56.980 Universal mail-in voting is out the window instantly.

01:08:58.760 Oh, totally.

01:08:59.180 Oh, oh.

01:08:59.800 I mean, all of the, uh, as a side benefit of this, all the election integrity stuff is

01:09:04.320 like automatically fixed with this, right?

01:09:06.000 And then what happens is-

01:09:07.060 It's automatically fixed.

01:09:07.760 You will have-

01:09:08.320 That goes without saying.

01:09:09.100 That's like automatic.

01:09:09.900 Day one, right?

01:09:10.660 So if you have to actually have demonstrated that you committed, that you fulfilled your service

01:09:14.480 requirement to the country, all that's gone.

01:09:17.220 Right.

01:09:17.360 So you have Democrats who will go.

01:09:20.300 Why do they want 16-year-olds to vote?

01:09:21.380 I mean, there's little doubt that Republicans for a long time to come would win elections

01:09:24.980 handily with this requirement in place.

01:09:26.860 That's not even my reason for saying it, but it would be an obvious side effect.

01:09:30.500 I think this, this system would work.

01:09:32.580 Well, I wouldn't even say forever because the two-party system would just reorganize itself

01:09:35.360 along different axes.

01:09:36.320 It wouldn't even be the Republicans and Democrats today.

01:09:37.920 But it would-

01:09:38.360 It'd be Republicans and something else.

01:09:39.880 It would, but the Republican Party would split into two.

01:09:42.280 Yeah, exactly.

01:09:42.940 Exactly.

01:09:43.300 And that could be productive evolution for the country.

01:09:45.440 Yes.

01:09:46.140 Yeah.

01:09:46.400 So the issue is when Democrats say they want 16-year-olds to vote.

01:09:49.240 Why?

01:09:49.640 It's because they're ignorant and they want an ignorant captured voter base who will just

01:09:54.240 check a box.

01:09:55.040 You introduce a civic requirement.

01:09:57.040 The Democrats are going to knock on the door and be like, did you vote?

01:09:58.840 And they're going to be like, I ain't joining the service.

01:10:00.400 And that vote is gone.

01:10:01.920 Totally.

01:10:02.240 And the civic requirements also, I think, includes some basic understanding of the

01:10:05.100 constitution.

01:10:05.860 Basic understanding.

01:10:06.560 So part of the civic service includes-

01:10:08.160 Passing a test.

01:10:08.780 Civic education.

01:10:09.700 Absolutely.

01:10:10.400 So you have a body of citizens.

01:10:11.600 This can be uniting for the country, by the way.

01:10:13.260 Because you know what?

01:10:13.680 A lot of kids who are the kids of a multi-billionaire sitting in some Upper East Side Manhattan

01:10:17.760 apartment won't want to do it.

01:10:19.460 Yep.

01:10:19.900 But some kids sitting next to where I am in Central Ohio or where you are here in Maryland

01:10:23.740 or whatever, down the street, will absolutely do it.

01:10:27.840 And I think that what does that do, Tim?

01:10:29.560 And I haven't heard other people talk about this aspect of it, but I think this is important

01:10:32.840 too, is it actually separates money from respect.

01:10:40.020 And I think one of the things that's interesting about American culture, it's a trade-off that

01:10:44.480 I'll take, but I'll still admit it's a trade-off, is that compared to like, let's just say,

01:10:49.960 the British aristocracy of even the prior century, and there's vestiges of it today, even

01:10:54.640 in Europe today, the amount of respect you're accorded in society isn't exactly or even close

01:11:02.500 to the same thing as the amount of money you have, because it's hereditary.

01:11:06.880 And so part of the American bargain is to say that we get rid of that hereditary stuff,

01:11:11.060 which I don't care who your parents were, but the side effect of that is, okay, the amount

01:11:14.920 of respect you get in the society, there's one axis that matters in this country.

01:11:18.860 It's a number of green pieces in your bank account, because that's the only hierarchical

01:11:21.860 order.

01:11:22.360 It shouldn't be.

01:11:22.900 But I'm saying like for much of our last 50 years.

01:11:24.740 No, no, no.

01:11:24.840 It's changed.

01:11:25.620 It is now the amount of followers on your Twitter account.

01:11:27.020 Followers on your Twitter account.

01:11:27.840 Fine, fine, fine.

01:11:28.740 But some sort of false idol, I think.

01:11:30.840 What I think, back to the point that I'm making here, though, is respective of followers

01:11:35.700 of green pieces of paper in your bank account, here we add a different axis, is you can be

01:11:39.980 a capital C citizen, part of the special club of people who get to determine who runs the

01:11:45.460 country, and it's open to everybody, but you can be a member of it where the kid of

01:11:49.820 a billionaire isn't, and I think that that can have an equalizing, civic equalizing effect

01:11:54.820 in our country that could be really powerful.

01:11:56.040 Well, I'm for it, for the most part.

01:11:58.500 I'm willing to entertain arguments, and I always want to make sure we have like, have

01:12:02.380 we really thought this through?

01:12:03.340 Yeah, of course.

01:12:03.780 But let me tell you what I really, really hate in this society.

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01:13:55.360 Did I mention that we care?

01:13:56.660 If I, if I want any action.

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01:14:12.520 And I, I beat a guy bad.

01:14:16.080 We'll put it simply.

01:14:17.020 And it wasn't like I had a good hand or anything.

01:14:19.060 I actually had a terrible hand, but I knew he was bluffing me.

01:14:21.340 I knew he was lying.

01:14:22.480 So he pushes $300, everything he's got into the table and gives me a look like I got it.

01:14:28.440 And then I said, no, you don't call, call this bet.

01:14:31.000 He flips over nothing.

01:14:32.160 I took all his money and I had bear, I had ace high, not even a pair.

01:14:36.600 That's it.

01:14:36.980 Yep.

01:14:37.540 He loses it.

01:14:38.700 He loses it.

01:14:39.800 He storms back a half.

01:14:40.880 He leaves, comes back half an hour later with cash, buys back into the table.

01:14:44.940 And then for the next 10 minutes, just keeps cussing at me and swearing at me.

01:14:48.760 And I'm like, okay, dude, this is, this is inappropriate.

01:14:51.140 And when I asked security to take action, they told me to leave.

01:14:53.880 They say, why don't you leave?

01:14:55.480 And so I thought to myself, this is what I really hate about society because I've been

01:15:00.400 in these situations, numerous occasions, and I know exactly what's going to happen.

01:15:04.620 I'm a reasonable person.

01:15:05.820 I simply went to the, to that, the poker room supervisor and said, look, this guy just

01:15:11.160 sat down.

01:15:11.980 He just joined the table.

01:15:13.420 He is bothering us.

01:15:14.880 He's bothering me.

01:15:15.680 Can you ask him to play at a different table?

01:15:17.180 I didn't say ban the guy.

01:15:18.280 I didn't say adjudicate who, who is, who is true and correct.

01:15:22.080 I simply said, we are currently in a feud.

01:15:24.840 Please separate us.

01:15:25.960 He said, no, you leave.

01:15:28.420 And then I'm like, here's the point of the story.

01:15:30.840 If I tweet to 1.6 million followers, they will call me up crying saying, please, please

01:15:41.020 stop.

01:15:42.040 And that pissed me off.

01:15:43.980 So I did tweet.

01:15:44.800 And of course it did have an effect.

01:15:47.240 Why is it that I, as a reasonable person who simply said, hey, look, there's a feud here.

01:15:53.940 Can you separate us?

01:15:55.000 Can you make this guy, he just sat down and played a different table.

01:15:57.080 They said, no, I'll do nothing for you.

01:15:59.700 But the moment I express the weight of my social gravitas, they fall to their knees.

01:16:06.080 That is bullshit.

01:16:07.680 This country should not function that way.

01:16:10.080 What should have happened is that reasonable people of good moral standing would simply

01:16:13.880 say, I would prefer it if you didn't fight, sir.

01:16:16.180 Would you mind moving to a different table?

01:16:17.840 But instead they say, fuck you.

01:16:19.900 I don't care about you.

01:16:21.060 I don't care about your problems.

01:16:22.540 Go sit down or leave.

01:16:24.120 And then my only response is, then I will wield the power I have because it's the only

01:16:29.760 thing you unreasonable people answer to.

01:16:32.040 I was on a flight on American Airlines a couple of years ago.

01:16:35.940 They canceled the flight.

01:16:37.380 They tell me, sorry, sir, you're out of luck.

01:16:41.000 Good luck.

01:16:42.120 And then I said, I have reasonably asked you.

01:16:44.920 I waited in line for a half an hour.

01:16:46.600 I am trying not to be this person, but I know exactly what solves this problem.

01:16:50.660 I tweet what happens next.

01:16:52.500 I get a phone call.

01:16:54.300 We are so sorry, sir.

01:16:55.880 We have upgraded you and we are getting on the first flight out.

01:16:58.600 And I said, you people are despicable.

01:17:00.320 They really are.

01:17:01.000 Any one of these regular people who don't have followers should have been given the time

01:17:05.620 of day and given a reasonable accommodation, not being told to screw off.

01:17:09.840 And this is what I can't stand.

01:17:11.540 And there's often the money version of it, too, right?

01:17:12.980 You pay the $300 tip or whatever to get the thing done that you need done.

01:17:16.960 And people are responsible accommodations.

01:17:18.800 Exactly.

01:17:19.200 So I think that if we do, it's like a principle of diversification, right?

01:17:27.200 So you have dollars, then you have social media followers, but then now you have something

01:17:30.840 that's unattuned to, but you have something that's untethered now to any of those currencies,

01:17:37.820 which is just civic standing in a society.

01:17:40.340 Like the class of people who serve the country have a greater level of respect.

01:17:43.920 You might be able to get in an American Airlines flight, but guess what?

01:17:47.100 I'm part of the group that gets to determine who actually runs the country.

01:17:52.140 But listen, so we all have something.

01:17:53.860 It used to be this way.

01:17:54.920 When you're boarding a plane, what do they say?

01:17:57.020 Active duty military are welcome to board first.

01:17:59.760 Right.

01:18:00.080 Police officers would be given the free hot dog or come on in, boys.

01:18:03.960 Have breakfast is on us.

01:18:05.500 Military service mattered.

01:18:07.500 But not anymore.

01:18:08.080 Not anymore.

01:18:08.620 But we could change that.

01:18:09.600 I think we could change that if we put some teeth back into it.

01:18:12.400 So let's just, I mean, let's just have some fun with this for a second because it's been

01:18:16.860 on my mind.

01:18:17.240 It keeps coming back and it's something that, you know, every sane instinct in my bones would

01:18:25.440 tell me, okay, we're not going to make it actually part of a policy proposal.

01:18:29.200 Let's just at least use it to clarify the way we see the world.

01:18:34.040 But I got to, I got to admit to you, I think that this is, this is part of an American revival

01:18:39.100 is at least reviving this idea of civic duty.

01:18:41.500 Agreed.

01:18:42.900 You're not telling somebody, you're not taking a freedom away from somebody.

01:18:46.000 It's not South Korea.

01:18:47.340 It's not Singapore, right?

01:18:49.120 It's not Israel where you say that, no, no, no, no.

01:18:51.620 At behest of gunpoint at the military, you better serve or else.

01:18:55.900 We're not saying that.

01:18:56.840 And that exists in other countries.

01:18:58.420 And it's proven to be a pretty good experiment in those countries even.

01:19:01.280 But we, that wouldn't be American.

01:19:02.460 We wouldn't do that.

01:19:03.000 But we would just say, hey, you're free to live the life exactly the way you want to.

01:19:07.800 You get all of the enshrined immunities that the constitution guarantees you.

01:19:11.460 But if you want certain full privileges of citizenship, things that aren't constitutionally

01:19:15.080 guaranteed, like the vote, you just got to live out your civic duty.

01:19:18.960 And here's what that means.

01:19:19.820 In some way.

01:19:20.200 And it doesn't mean military.

01:19:21.280 It doesn't mean military.

01:19:22.000 Now, I do think that we have to narrowly scope it.

01:19:24.320 It has to be closely tied to the national interest or else it devolves into vagueness that lends

01:19:30.300 itself to capture.

01:19:31.040 So we could talk about, you know, court system.

01:19:33.900 I think local law enforcement is pretty interesting.

01:19:37.140 Military, of course, counting.

01:19:38.740 We could pick a couple of other select areas.

01:19:40.320 I think that, you know, you could also just tie to areas, right?

01:19:43.040 I mean, we're short on ships.

01:19:44.540 So somebody who doesn't have a skill set to join the Navy would be more useful working

01:19:48.040 on a shipyard because our Navy is actually short on ships.

01:19:51.820 Building roads.

01:19:52.460 Building roads.

01:19:53.060 Yeah.

01:19:53.240 You know, national parks.

01:19:54.680 So we could talk about what fits the list, what doesn't.

01:19:56.880 And I think that you got to be really careful to lend and not recreate the woke problem through

01:20:01.200 a new bureaucracy.

01:20:01.700 I want to put that to one side.

01:20:04.660 Philosophically speaking, I think that that creates I think that there's no panaceas here,

01:20:10.020 but that is an element of a national revival that dilutes woke to irrelevance.

01:20:15.780 I think I want to I want to throw a random almost a non sequitur, I guess.

01:20:19.480 Are you familiar with demarchy, demarchy, demarchy, I don't think so rule at random.

01:20:26.680 No, I'm not.

01:20:27.400 The idea would be a demarcic Congress would be you're at home one day watching the Bears

01:20:33.960 game and it's you and you get a letter in the mail shoulder.

01:20:37.380 Yeah.

01:20:37.660 And it says you have been randomly selected for Congress duty and you'll appoint to a

01:20:42.900 local court.

01:20:43.940 We have that.

01:20:44.480 It's called jury duty.

01:20:45.740 But I'm saying, yeah, legislative.

01:20:47.500 Yeah.

01:20:47.800 Yeah, it's not an unfamiliar notion.

01:20:49.560 Exactly.

01:20:50.280 Yeah.

01:20:50.620 So the idea is that that's that that's the basically the the analogy I'm making.

01:20:54.000 You get a letter in the mail.

01:20:54.720 It says you've been selected for Congress duty.

01:20:56.280 And you go, oh, honey, I got Congress duty.

01:20:59.920 Yep.

01:21:00.240 And then it's like a four week session where accommodations are paid for.

01:21:05.920 You're brought in.

01:21:07.020 They say, here's what we're currently we've currently been proposing and working on.

01:21:11.800 You have to issue votes on several bills.

01:21:14.080 Because I like the idea in a limited scope, because imagine what would happen if you are

01:21:21.500 a carpenter, a plumber, an accountant.

01:21:24.400 You get called for Congress duty and they say, do you want to give 100 billion dollars

01:21:28.320 to Ukraine?

01:21:28.840 And what happens when you go home and all your neighbors, they're going to be like, why is

01:21:34.180 wrong with you?

01:21:35.040 So you're going to say, wow, no.

01:21:36.140 Yeah.

01:21:36.360 Yeah.

01:21:36.660 I and not only is there a social tie to not doing wrong by this country and supporting bloat,

01:21:43.080 but there's also your explicit interests as a regular working class person and your community

01:21:48.440 so that when they say we want to give 100 billion dollars to war in Ukraine, you go,

01:21:53.460 no one I know wants that.

01:21:55.140 I don't want that.

01:21:56.400 This is ridiculous.

01:21:58.100 And when you go back, you're more likely to see the interests of the common man upheld

01:22:02.800 in a Denmarkic system than in what we currently have.

01:22:05.900 I think that that's definitely in the category of like interesting.

01:22:09.860 No, no, no.

01:22:10.180 That's an interesting thought experiment.

01:22:13.920 I think that it captures part of what I like about the idea that I'm actually much more

01:22:19.340 serious about than I've let on just because I want to really iron out the pieces before

01:22:24.120 we roll this out.

01:22:25.120 Make sure it works before.

01:22:26.240 Yeah.

01:22:26.500 No, I'm talking about the civic service piece of this.

01:22:29.160 But this is a good thought experiment that gets to part of what would be good about that.

01:22:33.680 Let me just ask you this.

01:22:34.440 Actually, let's say it came out in the Republican primaries, OK?

01:22:38.960 Among other things, I mean, part of what I'm leading is an American civic revival.

01:22:43.680 OK, that's a big part of the whole thing.

01:22:45.360 It's not even a war on woke.

01:22:46.860 I think they'll say yes.

01:22:47.760 I think they say yes, man.

01:22:49.100 Yep.

01:22:49.320 And I think the Democrats call you a fascist and say no, because they'll do it because

01:22:54.100 actually some of them on first principles would agree.

01:22:56.200 They would just do the electoral calculus.

01:22:57.680 And for the same reason they want to make Puerto Rico a state, they would say no to this.

01:23:01.280 Exactly.

01:23:01.720 And it's just the election results.

01:23:03.080 By the way, our election integrity stuff, that's like child's play.

01:23:08.640 That's done now.

01:23:09.500 We fixed that with this.

01:23:10.900 I mean, this is going to the next level.

01:23:13.440 And it's not just about voter ID.

01:23:16.060 It's like Harvey Mansfield.

01:23:17.220 You know who Harvey Mansfield is?

01:23:18.340 He wrote this piece.

01:23:19.160 Sounds familiar.

01:23:19.620 He's like a conservative philosopher.

01:23:21.220 He was – anyway, he wrote this interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal a few months

01:23:24.460 ago, which is why don't we have – why don't we just settle elections with polls?

01:23:28.680 This is when the peak of many of the discussions about voter fraud were playing out in the

01:23:32.140 country.

01:23:33.060 Why don't we just settle it with polls?

01:23:34.360 And he actually made for the first half of the article – and in the culture we live

01:23:38.280 in, people only ever read the first half of an article.

01:23:40.000 This is like a brilliant man.

01:23:41.020 He's an older – he's very advanced in years.

01:23:43.660 But he's a brilliant guy.

01:23:45.100 And he makes the first half – he reads the first half of the piece and a lot of sort

01:23:47.840 of online Twitter conservative types would read it and be like, no.

01:23:52.200 They fail to realize he's actually satirizing the other side and he didn't understand.

01:23:56.660 But first half of the piece makes a brilliant argument for here's why we could do polling

01:24:01.520 to settle who runs the country better than running elections.

01:24:06.000 And he makes a case for scientifically the modeling, how you could actually get a better

01:24:10.500 sense of what the populace thinks by just doing online panel and telephonic surveys of

01:24:16.120 samples using modern polling science to get to a cleaner answer than you can by the

01:24:21.620 messy system that we actually have a ballot harvesting, voting, et cetera.

01:24:24.320 It's actually a fair point, to be honest.

01:24:25.280 It's actually a really fair point.

01:24:26.540 And he makes the point.

01:24:28.160 People recoil at it not knowing that actually the dude gets it more deeply than you do in

01:24:33.920 advancing your own cause.

01:24:35.460 And then he comes back and says, but we don't do it that way.

01:24:38.680 That part was behind the Wall Street Journal paywall or something.

01:24:40.940 So we don't do it that way.

01:24:44.100 But we don't do it that way for a reason.

01:24:45.960 It's not because we don't trust the accuracy of the results as much.

01:24:49.940 In fact, I could prove to you that we could trust the accuracy of the results more than

01:24:53.960 the clunky system that we have today.

01:24:56.160 It's because the act of voting itself means something.

01:25:00.680 It is the expression of who you are as a citizen.

01:25:04.060 And going through that ritual itself has an important civic function.

01:25:10.480 And so I think that when you think about that, take that analogy to now, not just the act of

01:25:15.820 voting, but like, let's say the voter ID law, is it really just about verification or is

01:25:22.200 there something more to it than that?

01:25:24.760 Because you only get your ID if you're a man in this country, as you and I am, I believe

01:25:28.580 in two genders.

01:25:29.200 One's a man and one's a woman.

01:25:30.500 And the people who are the men in this country have historically been required.

01:25:33.960 I think women should be required too, if we're applying the principles fairly to register.

01:25:38.900 For the draft.

01:25:39.380 For the draft.

01:25:40.060 Selective service.

01:25:40.460 Selective service registration.

01:25:41.400 You only get your ID presentable to vote if you did do that.

01:25:45.380 So in a certain sense, this radical ID I'm talking about, it's already baked into our

01:25:49.280 system.

01:25:49.680 Oh, that's interesting.

01:25:50.380 It's pretty interesting.

01:25:51.060 It's already more familiar than you know.

01:25:53.040 So actually, the simplest way to implement the...

01:25:56.280 You already have an apparatus to do it.

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01:26:56.200 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

01:27:00.360 So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients

01:27:05.860 that we really care about you.

01:27:07.900 We care about you.

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01:27:15.940 Visit Desjardins.com slash care.

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01:27:20.940 Care.

01:27:21.640 Did I mention that we care?

01:27:23.020 The moment you sign up for the Selective Service, you are given your voter ID.

01:27:28.780 Exactly.

01:27:29.440 Then apply it for women.

01:27:30.420 Game over.

01:27:30.840 We're already there.

01:27:31.260 And then they say this.

01:27:32.300 And if you don't want to sign up, you don't have to.

01:27:34.320 And then if you don't want to sign up, you don't have to.

01:27:35.880 So that's actually more libertarian and liberty promoting than it is today.

01:27:43.340 And?

01:27:43.800 So people think this is a radical idea.

01:27:45.060 It's not a radical idea because literally today you're breaking the law.

01:27:49.340 If as a male in this country, you don't register for Selective Service.

01:27:54.800 So what I'm saying is you can opt out of it.

01:27:56.580 Women have to do it too.

01:27:57.980 But whoever wants the right to it, women included.

01:28:00.300 And you're not even doing anything.

01:28:02.100 You're not even doing anything.

01:28:03.160 There's no picking up trash.

01:28:04.560 The only thing I would do one more thing is that Selective Service,

01:28:06.780 let's not make it just a motion you go through because that's what it is today.

01:28:09.700 Let's give it some teeth.

01:28:10.840 Basic training?

01:28:11.440 Some teeth.

01:28:12.020 Some teeth.

01:28:12.740 And we can talk about what it is.

01:28:13.760 But yes, basic training.

01:28:15.120 And if you don't have the physical capability, basic training can be education.

01:28:18.380 Right?

01:28:18.480 I mean, we don't have basic constitutional training in this country.

01:28:21.300 It's not that far from the system we already have in this country.

01:28:25.320 So like my campaign staff is going to like beat the hell out of me after you and I have

01:28:29.280 this conversation going on here.

01:28:31.500 But honestly, I'm in this to lead a national revival.

01:28:35.340 But think about this.

01:28:36.380 This just, I mean, among other things, I'm not a silver bullet guy.

01:28:39.820 I'm not saying that this is the silver bullet panacea.

01:28:41.640 But part of the essence of a national revival includes civic duty.

01:28:47.980 We've got very low numbers in the volunteer military force right now.

01:28:52.520 The recruitment is down, way down.

01:28:54.580 25% last year.

01:28:55.820 The draft is opposed by basically everybody.

01:28:59.380 We're not talking about a draft here.

01:29:00.900 But no, but here's the thing.

01:29:01.760 If we say there's no longer a draft, there is service guaranteed citizenship.

01:29:06.700 You sign up for the selective service, which actually may, it has a substantially higher

01:29:11.720 percentage of you being called to some kind of civic duty than it does today.

01:29:14.940 Because right now, no one takes it seriously.

01:29:16.280 Nobody does.

01:29:16.740 It's just a piece of paper you fill out because you have to.

01:29:18.100 Nobody even knows what they're filling out, actually.

01:29:19.780 Let's say that you know signing this up means there is a, maybe a 5% chance you actually

01:29:26.440 get called to something important.

01:29:27.660 Maybe they need help building roads or something.

01:29:29.200 Maybe there actually is a conflict.

01:29:30.880 Shipyard shortage.

01:29:31.900 Yep.

01:29:32.060 You know, yeah.

01:29:32.540 And they call you up for duty.

01:29:35.600 By signing up for this, here's the idea.

01:29:37.760 A lot of people assume service guarantees citizenship implies for two years you're working

01:29:41.260 on a shipyard.

01:29:41.820 For two years you're in the military.

01:29:42.880 For two years you're working in a courthouse or something like this.

01:29:44.500 Doesn't have to be that at all.

01:29:45.540 All you do is you sign up for this thing, which is a very, very low probability of actually

01:29:49.840 calling you up, but you volunteer for it, which then puts you in the system.

01:29:52.820 It's sort of how the National Guard works right now, right?

01:29:54.580 You have people who are in reserves for the National Guard.

01:29:56.800 You go in to train like one weekend a month.

01:29:59.380 Weekend orders.

01:29:59.920 It's actually kind of fun for most people who do it.

01:30:01.960 Now, these people who volunteer to do it, they're self-selected, but you do fun stuff.

01:30:04.860 And then in a time of some emergency, right?

01:30:06.720 Rescuing people out of the flood in Louisiana after a hurricane.

01:30:11.080 Whatever it is, you're on duty to be called.

01:30:15.540 Again, I don't think it has to be limited to physical service because not everybody's

01:30:19.180 suited physically or what otherwise to be, to have the physical requirements of the

01:30:23.840 military.

01:30:25.060 But those people can have other constitutional education, et cetera, that still fills that

01:30:30.060 need to fill in a court system, for example, that's often understaffed.

01:30:34.100 This is something that it's not, it's not compelled.

01:30:39.080 That's the whole point.

01:30:40.040 It's a choice.

01:30:41.100 Yep.

01:30:41.500 It's a choice you make.

01:30:43.060 And by all means.

01:30:43.720 And by the way, you know how many people choose to vote?

01:30:45.100 It's like barely over half the people in this game.

01:30:46.760 I mean, it's like, it's certainly far from a 100% voting rate in this country.

01:30:50.200 You get more willing civic duty.

01:30:51.700 Yes.

01:30:51.860 You get more willing military duty.

01:30:53.560 You get cleaner election systems.

01:30:55.580 And then the people who don't want to be involved don't have to be.

01:30:57.580 And that's part of my whole thing is we dilute the woke agenda to irrelevance.

01:31:02.960 Whack-a-mole has not and will not work.

01:31:05.740 You dilute the root cause to irrelevance, which is the hunger for purpose and meaning and identity.

01:31:11.720 And you know what?

01:31:12.820 So let's say I'm, and this is my case, right?

01:31:16.380 To the voter, to the MAGA base, to the America First base, on this moral principled foundation.

01:31:25.480 God knows I love Trump.

01:31:26.460 I mean, I voted for the guy.

01:31:27.240 He's a friend.

01:31:28.420 He did his work.

01:31:29.380 He took the America First movement as far as it was going to go in the first four years.

01:31:33.420 But guys, America First is bigger than Donald Trump.

01:31:36.320 It is bigger than me.

01:31:37.080 It is bigger than you.

01:31:37.620 It is bigger than any of us.

01:31:38.880 It is even bigger than the Republican Party.

01:31:40.700 Because let's also be honest.

01:31:41.740 We're just using, to make a lot of people mad for me saying this out loud, we're using the

01:31:46.760 Republican Party as a vehicle to advance the America First agenda.

01:31:51.760 This is the future of politics, man.

01:31:53.020 I mean, look.

01:31:53.280 See what it is.

01:31:53.620 I mean, we have a two-party system.

01:31:54.620 Great.

01:31:55.700 I'll say this.

01:31:56.500 I or Donald Trump, what are we doing?

01:31:59.040 We're using the Republican Party as a vehicle to do something different than what the Republican

01:32:03.300 Party was doing, you know, 30 years ago.

01:32:05.120 And that's fine.

01:32:06.040 But to go the distance, this is very important to see distinctions here.

01:32:12.180 If you want to actually, you don't want to just get to the red zone.

01:32:14.740 You want to get to the end zone.

01:32:16.700 You can't just do it based on grievance and vengeance.

01:32:20.340 Not because grievance and vengeance is bad.

01:32:22.100 I'm not making a moral judgment.

01:32:23.280 I'm giving you a descriptive fact in this country.

01:32:26.260 You're going to actually take on.

01:32:27.920 So why am I able to take on affirmative action, right?

01:32:30.700 Why am I the only presidential candidate in U.S. history, including Republicans, who

01:32:35.600 has said I would end affirmative action with an executive order?

01:32:37.960 Because it started with an executive order.

01:32:39.280 And by the way, I pushed Trump's people on this.

01:32:41.440 Why did they not cross out 1-1-2-4-6, the Johnson era executive order?

01:32:45.000 You could have just done it.

01:32:45.340 You could have just done it with a stroke of a pen.

01:32:46.620 Why didn't you do it?

01:32:47.540 I'll give you an exact quote from his policy people.

01:32:49.380 It's not a political hill we want to die on.

01:32:51.960 So, and we can go on the climate cult.

01:32:54.040 We can use military against the cartels, Mexico, secure border, shut down

01:32:57.840 the Department of Education, shut down FBI, all stuff I've said I'm going to do.

01:33:01.500 How do you do that and unite the country?

01:33:03.960 You do it based on first principles.

01:33:07.080 You do it based on a moral foundation.

01:33:08.280 Because if you're doing it based on grievance and vengeance, I mean, even this week in the

01:33:11.520 Wall Street Journal, I wrote a piece.

01:33:13.100 And it's really pathetic watching the DeSantis of the world just sort of cower in fear and

01:33:16.600 try to dance their way around this.

01:33:17.880 I said, I would pardon Trump.

01:33:19.420 And by the way, they say you can't pardon Trump because it's a state offense.

01:33:22.980 Actually, it turns out you study the Constitution law a little bit.

01:33:25.700 You learn that actually if you're using a federal offense to charge it, even if you're a state

01:33:29.180 prosecutor, absolutely, you pardon the underlying crime.

01:33:32.500 And so, OK, so that's no interesting.

01:33:35.140 I mean, Yale law professors on down.

01:33:36.440 Nobody challenges that.

01:33:37.460 Actually, people say I'm on solid footing here.

01:33:39.560 Even Bill Barr, I sent it to him.

01:33:41.760 He said, you know, it's a colorable legal argument.

01:33:43.800 It's anywhere between colorable legal argument to hard law.

01:33:45.900 So I think you've got to understand this stuff to actually govern in these complicated

01:33:48.940 times.

01:33:49.520 But back to the point is that's the irony is Trump himself is the victim.

01:33:53.260 Yeah, now of an administrative failed state that a leader, including him, failed to fully

01:33:59.740 reform.

01:34:00.660 We got to go the distance with America first.

01:34:03.520 Get the job done.

01:34:05.260 Vengeance and grievance will not get the job done all the way.

01:34:08.700 It's kind of like what Reagan did in the 1980s.

01:34:11.080 There's an opportunity to do it with a moral foundation based on first principles.

01:34:16.480 Well, let's go further than anybody ever did in this movement.

01:34:19.620 That is what I'm aiming to do here.

01:34:20.860 Let's talk about the primary and the presidency and all that stuff.

01:34:23.800 Yeah, I think for a lot of people, I'll be completely blunt.

01:34:27.160 Yeah, and the only way the first thing I'll say is when I said this is the future of politics,

01:34:31.600 the fact that you're you're running, you've got the means to do it.

01:34:35.020 Yeah, and we're sitting here in this raw two hour recorded conversation is is it's relatively

01:34:40.760 unprecedented in terms of electoral politics.

01:34:43.500 I mean, Trump wouldn't do it when we talk about interviewing Trump.

01:34:46.320 They say he might give you 20 minutes because he's a very busy guy.

01:34:48.360 And I respect that.

01:34:49.380 Ron DeSantis, also very busy guy.

01:34:50.740 It's not that they're busy.

01:34:51.860 These guys will spend that much time, especially DeSantis, spend hours in a cloistered room

01:34:56.260 somewhere with a bunch of political consultants.

01:34:58.040 Exactly.

01:34:58.460 Planning out.

01:34:58.940 It's because it's because they can't because they don't want to go off script.

01:35:02.600 Right.

01:35:02.960 That's actually the issue.

01:35:04.020 So here's my prediction.

01:35:05.840 I think we'll see you on the debate stage.

01:35:09.040 Yeah.

01:35:09.220 I think you will get a substantial amount of votes.

01:35:12.140 I think Donald Trump will win the primary and then I will vote for him.

01:35:15.820 I think that's what's going to end up happening.

01:35:17.740 After everything you said already, I'll probably vote for you in the primary and then end up

01:35:21.900 voting for Trump in the in the general, because I think, generally speaking, in this country,

01:35:25.840 they're just going to vote for Trump.

01:35:26.740 Yeah, we'll see.

01:35:28.920 I mean, I'm not a political analyst, man, so I don't have strong objections that I'm

01:35:32.220 going to like push back with you on.

01:35:33.580 I'm I'm not in the business of I'm not even a politician.

01:35:36.060 Right.

01:35:36.440 So who am I to make?

01:35:37.900 I don't have authority on a lot of things.

01:35:40.300 Political science of polling and who's going to vote for who?

01:35:43.760 I mean, I know.

01:35:44.920 Right.

01:35:45.340 But what I am going to do is I'm going to be crystal clear about what I think needs

01:35:49.620 to be the ingredient for a national revival in this country.

01:35:53.160 I think I'm going to be unapologetic.

01:35:55.080 I'm not going to mince words, not going to play some political game of snakes and ladders.

01:35:59.240 And I would rather lose the primary, the election, whatever it is, and say what I believed at

01:36:04.200 every step of the way, as we've been doing for the last hour here, and lose this election

01:36:07.760 rather than play the political snakes and ladders win.

01:36:09.640 And I view it as a fun experiment.

01:36:11.420 The experiment for me is I'm actually really curious how the world in the country works right

01:36:15.680 now.

01:36:16.260 Like, does does that get rewarded all the way to victory?

01:36:19.340 My gut says kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'm in this because I think the answer to that

01:36:23.760 is yes.

01:36:24.660 Otherwise, there's plenty of other ways to have an impact.

01:36:26.340 I'm churning out a book every six months and building businesses.

01:36:28.940 I could keep doing that.

01:36:30.060 And I'm pretty satisfied.

01:36:31.740 Personally, it's a lot more fun and liberating the partisan politics.

01:36:35.880 But it'd be interesting to see.

01:36:37.120 I mean, does the world work?

01:36:39.540 Does the country work in a way that that strategy actually is the winning one?

01:36:43.440 But I could see worlds in which we win without occupying a particular political position or

01:36:50.380 occupying the political position while you actually lose the real thing because you become

01:36:53.780 a hollowed out husk.

01:36:54.840 Speaking of hollow, hollowed out husk of yourself in the process.

01:36:58.220 And so that's it's the game I'm playing is really different than I think what most people

01:37:03.140 who go into running for president are playing is I'm playing to win.

01:37:06.460 But that's that, you know, winning you can you can you can win the nominal race and lose

01:37:12.800 the actual war you're in or you could lose the race and win the war you're in.

01:37:17.800 And I'd like to think we live in a world where those things match, but we'll find out.

01:37:21.000 So, you know, the reason I say this is clearly just historical bias, right?

01:37:25.480 What we've seen with anyone who we saw is challenging the system, how things played out.

01:37:29.100 There's the favorite.

01:37:29.920 We assume they're going to win.

01:37:31.020 But I'll also add everybody laughed when they said Trump was going to be the GOP nominee.

01:37:36.200 And then he got it, actually.

01:37:37.580 And then everyone was kind of shocked by it.

01:37:39.360 I'm actually polling where Trump was when he came down the escalator, I was told recently.

01:37:42.480 So, you know, which is to say very low.

01:37:44.580 Yeah.

01:37:45.000 But but regardless, I think Trump has done a few good things that has warmed me back

01:37:51.540 up to him a year ago.

01:37:52.920 I was like, you know what?

01:37:53.800 I'm for DeSantis because really, we only had two choices at the time.

01:37:57.640 There was talk of Trump running again.

01:37:59.180 Everybody knew he was.

01:38:00.040 And then maybe DeSantis is your guy.

01:38:01.400 And I said, DeSantis is getting the job done in Florida.

01:38:03.960 And Trump is whining about 2020.

01:38:06.280 I'm annoyed by it.

01:38:07.640 But now we've seen something different.

01:38:10.320 Ron DeSantis is coming off as, look, I like the guy.

01:38:13.880 He's done a great job in Florida, but he's coming off as generic.

01:38:16.660 He's coming off as going through the motions.

01:38:18.480 Answer, as you described it, as, you know, he's just doing the things on the surface level.

01:38:22.700 And Donald Trump is now putting out videos addressing culture war issues, things that are

01:38:26.840 very important to us.

01:38:28.660 And the most important thing to me, outside of the fact that Trump is actually now, you

01:38:33.160 know, putting up real policy positions, going to East Palestine.

01:38:37.500 Totally.

01:38:37.920 And so I respect it.

01:38:39.340 And what I said, and I'll say it while we got you here is, where was Marianne Williamson?

01:38:43.920 She's running for president.

01:38:45.300 Where was Vivek Ramaswamy?

01:38:46.400 He's running for president.

01:38:47.520 You know what I did actually for the East Palestine?

01:38:49.300 I mean, I'm from Ohio.

01:38:50.360 I'm just, I just looked in the mirror.

01:38:51.780 I said, I could show up at East Palestine.

01:38:53.280 By that point, I just declared, I'll be really honest, those people didn't, didn't give a

01:38:59.300 damn if I show up in East Palestine or not.

01:39:01.420 And Donald Trump had been their president.

01:39:02.600 He did.

01:39:03.220 So I, I, they voted for him.

01:39:04.560 So I'm not saying it was Donald Trump is a political stunt.

01:39:06.780 If I went there, that's a political stunt.

01:39:08.440 So I don't, I don't like bragging about this, but you don't know what I did do when I self

01:39:11.220 reflected on that.

01:39:11.800 I wrote a six figure check and I, you know, I didn't make a big fuss about it and gave it

01:39:15.480 to a nonprofit that was actually aiding people who were suffering in that community.

01:39:18.200 And like the political move would be to then own that and issue some press release

01:39:21.100 at the time we didn't know, because for me, the question is, what does leadership mean?

01:39:24.360 It means serving the cause that you actually care about in the country, but that you don't

01:39:28.240 know where I was.

01:39:28.780 That's where I was.

01:39:29.440 You got to tell people you did.

01:39:30.560 And this is, this is the, this is the funny thing, right?

01:39:32.020 It just feels like, I don't believe, I hate that signaling.

01:39:35.380 It's so fake, but you're asking me here, man to man, and we're having this conversation.

01:39:39.880 There's the first time I'm saying it in public.

01:39:41.380 Okay.

01:39:41.720 That's what I did.

01:39:42.600 And so I gave a six figure check to help the people in East Palestine.

01:39:45.080 Cause I thought that was going to have a bigger impact to a nonprofit.

01:39:47.920 It was a church there that was actually aiding people on the ground.

01:39:50.220 I thought more than me showing up with the camera crew, that was what was going to be

01:39:54.140 more useful.

01:39:54.560 And actually that's different from saying that I'm not saying that Donald Trump did a political

01:39:58.540 stunt.

01:39:58.820 He did what he should have done.

01:40:00.740 People voted for him.

01:40:01.760 He showed up for him.

01:40:02.440 I like that.

01:40:02.780 And you know what?

01:40:03.340 A year from now, I'll be a figure where maybe six months from now where, where my showing

01:40:07.440 up would have been more valuable than the check that I wrote.

01:40:09.660 But I just care about that.

01:40:10.840 I care about the purpose.

01:40:11.760 It's the double-edged sword, right?

01:40:12.980 Yeah.

01:40:13.500 If you're like, I don't want to do a political stunt, then people say you did nothing.

01:40:17.460 And if you do something, they say you're not.

01:40:19.560 And so here's the whole point for me in this whole campaign, like I told you, I'm not

01:40:23.120 asking the question of how it's going to be perceived.

01:40:26.060 Yeah.

01:40:26.480 I'm really not.

01:40:27.240 I'm just doing what I think is right.

01:40:29.860 And there'll be an interesting experiment to see whether or not that is a successful

01:40:33.480 electoral strategy.

01:40:34.620 My bet is in the fullness of time, it will be.

01:40:37.720 And you know, the conversation I'm having with you here about civic duty.

01:40:40.680 I mean, like, just like, let's just talk about it.

01:40:41.880 We just spent about half an hour discussing a serious proposal that I'm weighing to make

01:40:47.220 people actually fulfill a demonstrable civic duty, men and women both, before they get to

01:40:53.260 vote.

01:40:53.940 I mean, that's going to make people go nuts.

01:40:57.140 You might get some articles written about you.

01:40:58.440 But that's okay.

01:40:59.440 I'm speaking truth at every step.

01:41:01.000 And we'll figure out whether that's a successful electoral strategy or not.

01:41:04.120 And that's the same reason why I didn't want to wear it on my sleeve that I did something

01:41:08.100 substantive, if I may say so, to help people in East Palestine, is that I didn't want to

01:41:12.680 make an advertisement out of it.

01:41:14.720 And that's just the way we're doing this.

01:41:16.460 That's just the way we're doing this.

01:41:17.480 The challenge is if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it, did it really

01:41:20.200 happen?

01:41:20.980 Yeah.

01:41:21.200 And so what ends up happening is, you know, and with all due respect, I'm on the show

01:41:25.340 and I'm saying, I like Donald Trump.

01:41:26.660 He went to East Palestine, goes to McDonald's and he buys food for people.

01:41:30.260 He brings pallets.

01:41:30.960 The left mocked him saying, oh, he brought Trump water from his hotels.

01:41:34.740 Oh, he brought this food from his hotels.

01:41:36.040 And I'm like, he did something.

01:41:36.860 Yeah, he gave his stuff to his people.

01:41:38.820 And here's where I'm at, also on the race.

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01:42:38.860 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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01:43:05.080 Care.

01:43:05.840 Did I mention that we care?

01:43:07.120 Trump is not a plastic politician.

01:43:12.520 I'm going to be pretty honest.

01:43:14.040 Everybody else in this race, Ron DeSantis included, is a plastic stuffed suit.

01:43:20.440 They're circus monkeys that jump to what Twitter tells them to do.

01:43:23.480 It's really what they are.

01:43:24.120 I mean, it's not that different than Dylan Mulvaney, actually.

01:43:26.560 I agree completely.

01:43:27.560 And even, you know, Disney has the last laugh in the end.

01:43:30.680 BlackRock has the last laugh in the end.

01:43:32.560 Oh, I'm going to pull $700 million out.

01:43:33.960 Oh, I get my little conservative media bump out of it, get a little trend on Twitter.

01:43:38.760 Oh, and then I'm just going to do a little truce, $13 billion with BlackRock and a bunch

01:43:42.180 of BlackRock lobbyists are also people who are in my pocket.

01:43:45.140 Okay.

01:43:46.180 Same thing with Disney.

01:43:47.080 Okay, I'm going to get the Twitter trend out of it.

01:43:48.420 And then Disney has the last laugh.

01:43:49.860 At least it would appear that way right now.

01:43:51.060 It doesn't matter because the thing they're solving for isn't even what is acting on

01:43:56.960 conviction.

01:43:57.620 It's just what the professional politician is supposed to do.

01:44:00.540 You know, that's Ron DeSantis.

01:44:01.540 And it's not just Ron DeSantis.

01:44:02.380 I'm just talking about him because he's the leader of the pack.

01:44:04.620 It's any career politician.

01:44:06.080 That's how they behave.

01:44:06.920 Just how they're wired, what they're trained to do.

01:44:09.000 We don't really have demarcic, you know, service in this country.

01:44:13.160 I like the idea, though.

01:44:13.980 I like the idea, too.

01:44:14.740 It's interesting.

01:44:15.320 But this is what you get when you don't, right, is a class of professional politicians.

01:44:18.220 Donald Trump is not that.

01:44:18.980 I won't even pretend he's that.

01:44:21.000 Now, I do think that he's somebody I respect, actually, as an outsider.

01:44:24.960 What he did in 2015, 2016 is what I'm doing now.

01:44:28.620 I think there's two things I would say, though.

01:44:31.020 One is you get to be an outsider once.

01:44:34.020 I'm not going to be the same person.

01:44:36.060 If I get successfully elected, win this thing, run the country, take on the administrative

01:44:40.680 state in the way I attempt to shut down the FBI, IRS, I intend to follow through with

01:44:43.660 it.

01:44:44.500 I love it.

01:44:45.040 I'm not going to be the same person if I sit with you here eight years from now that

01:44:49.840 I am today.

01:44:50.440 It's just right.

01:44:51.380 I'm a human.

01:44:52.440 Donald Trump is human.

01:44:53.860 It doesn't work that way.

01:44:55.500 OK, you go in to drain the swamp.

01:44:57.680 Maybe you will.

01:44:58.260 But it drains you back.

01:44:59.100 It's a two sided war.

01:45:00.500 OK.

01:45:02.560 Donald Trump is not the same Donald Trump that existed in 2015.

01:45:05.580 It's just a fact.

01:45:06.720 Yeah.

01:45:07.820 It's just true.

01:45:08.660 It's not critical or anything.

01:45:10.000 I won't be the same person eight years from now that I am today.

01:45:12.560 I've got fresh legs as an outsider.

01:45:15.400 OK, you get to be that outsider once.

01:45:18.200 You seize that.

01:45:19.120 You do as much as you can.

01:45:20.600 You take the ball as far as you take it.

01:45:22.280 You drop the mic.

01:45:23.280 Let the next guy pick it up.

01:45:24.340 Now, my view is the tradition in the GOP should be for the presidency.

01:45:28.280 It's fine for foot soldiers, governors, congressmen, senators, et cetera, to be, you know, people

01:45:33.820 that are products and trained in the political system.

01:45:35.720 So be it if that's the way it's got to be.

01:45:38.040 But for the White House, you want someone to take on the permanent state.

01:45:43.340 It should be the outsider.

01:45:45.440 OK, we should be the party that puts the outsider in the White House.

01:45:49.340 Democrats can be the party, the professional politician.

01:45:52.580 Now, I think that what's it?

01:45:53.800 So that leaves two people in this race.

01:45:55.020 And I think by by this fall, let's call it by this November, I think heading into the

01:45:59.160 you know, the the elections next year, I think that either shortly after the the early

01:46:05.920 states, if not even before the early states, it's going to be a two person race between

01:46:09.320 me and Donald Trump, because that's where this ends up.

01:46:11.380 I think that's where the base is at in terms of understanding this got to be the outside

01:46:14.900 Santos, not not in a serious way.

01:46:17.280 No, I think he's he's more or less irrelevant either shortly after, if not, if not even shortly

01:46:23.020 after even before the early states.

01:46:25.440 I think he's like, go, Scott Walker, Jeb Bush.

01:46:27.840 Right.

01:46:28.280 I want to say this, too, I think.

01:46:30.120 And I'll say it again.

01:46:30.780 DeSantis did a lot of really great stuff.

01:46:31.840 Yeah, I like him.

01:46:32.520 Stay as a governor.

01:46:33.160 He can continue to do some good stuff.

01:46:34.220 He's a foot soldier.

01:46:35.040 There's surprisingly, you know, Luke Rutkowski, for instance, is a friend of the show.

01:46:39.660 Yeah.

01:46:39.980 He's got his own YouTube channel.

01:46:41.060 We are change.

01:46:41.640 He's a very libertarian, anarchist kind of personality.

01:46:44.660 He hates government and he praises Ron DeSantis.

01:46:47.180 He likes these things.

01:46:47.840 But I got to be honest, when I see you speak, when I see Ron DeSantis speak, I don't see

01:46:53.600 Ron DeSantis being able to go toe to toe with you on the debate stage.

01:46:56.420 Yeah.

01:46:56.560 Can I tell you, can I share something that's actually going to, you know, piss some people

01:46:59.180 off, too?

01:47:00.160 Yes.

01:47:00.580 I'm just kidding.

01:47:00.900 There's actually a lot of a lot.

01:47:02.360 You're getting a lot of firsts out of me because you're just like really honest.

01:47:04.920 And I think we should just do so.

01:47:07.200 So.

01:47:08.740 So there was an event.

01:47:09.920 I was on the book tour for Woke Inc.

01:47:12.620 OK.

01:47:13.380 Ron DeSantis and I are both speaking at that event.

01:47:15.620 You know, he's the main speaker.

01:47:18.140 Nobody's coming to, you know, I'm not the main person people are coming to hear, but

01:47:21.160 I was also a speaker.

01:47:22.160 I speak, you know, whatever.

01:47:23.980 Different environments are different.

01:47:25.140 I get a standing ovation or whatever.

01:47:26.380 He comes on afterwards, more muted crowd reaction.

01:47:29.560 He's pissed.

01:47:31.080 He leaves.

01:47:31.820 He was supposed to stay for the dinner.

01:47:32.600 He leaves.

01:47:33.400 One of the sponsors of the table pulled me aside afterwards.

01:47:36.060 Oh, great job, et cetera.

01:47:37.120 You know, donor guy said, hey, just give you a piece of advice.

01:47:41.180 In the future, when you're speaking with Ron on stage, don't upstage him.

01:47:45.640 I think you upstaged him.

01:47:46.880 I think he was a little bit upset.

01:47:47.840 I'm not getting it.

01:47:48.560 And Ron was upset.

01:47:49.780 Yeah, absolutely.

01:47:50.500 And so I did speak on many stages with Ron DeSantis since then.

01:47:53.620 And I kept that advice in mind.

01:47:54.840 I'm not running for office.

01:47:55.580 So every time in my mind, I'm like, all right, be careful.

01:47:59.220 Don't speak.

01:47:59.880 Don't speak to, you know, be a little bit more demure.

01:48:03.200 Let's say we're in a fireside chat.

01:48:04.320 We've done that before, too.

01:48:05.560 You know, make sure you throw in enough praise for him just because, you know, he likes that.

01:48:08.840 And I'm not doing it to suck up to him.

01:48:10.060 I just want it to be a better event, better conversation, because it's not it's not great when

01:48:13.200 a guy just goes storming off and is angry because people didn't applaud for him.

01:48:15.880 It's just uncomfortable for everybody.

01:48:17.660 Right.

01:48:18.100 But to me, that's just that's just a professional politician.

01:48:20.880 You know, thin ego, thin skin syndrome.

01:48:23.440 That's not the guy.

01:48:24.460 Right.

01:48:24.700 And so now I'm competing against Ron DeSantis.

01:48:26.440 You better believe you better believe I'm bringing it.

01:48:29.080 And right.

01:48:29.320 He's going to be irrelevant by comparison.

01:48:30.440 But but but back to the point, two people.

01:48:33.080 Right.

01:48:33.260 It's going to be me and Donald Trump, two outsiders.

01:48:34.840 And I think that there would be a strong case for both.

01:48:38.240 But.

01:48:40.280 I am in this race because I think I can take the America first agenda that Trump himself

01:48:47.120 cares about.

01:48:49.080 I can take that further than Trump did.

01:48:52.180 Trump went as far.

01:48:52.900 He tried and he toiled for this country and he made progress and he took it about as far

01:48:57.140 as he was going to go.

01:48:57.760 Maybe go a little further.

01:48:58.680 Right.

01:48:59.300 COVID, a lot of things got in the way that fourth year, but he went about as far as he

01:49:02.540 was going to go.

01:49:03.280 Maybe a little further.

01:49:04.920 I've got fresh legs.

01:49:06.280 I'm Trump in 2015 and then some because I'm not just doing a fresh legs.

01:49:12.400 B, I'm younger neck reach the next generation.

01:49:15.500 I think that's an important part of this.

01:49:16.560 But see, if you're doing it based on first principles, moral foundation, you will go further

01:49:25.580 than anybody will in the system let you if you're doing it based on some sense of personal

01:49:33.440 grievance, personal vengeance or personality driven agenda.

01:49:38.480 And I just think that don't don't do it because I'm that's the wrong way.

01:49:42.360 I think.

01:49:42.980 Go with me because it's the right way to just go further with the agenda itself.

01:49:46.300 And that's why I'm talking about affirmative action.

01:49:48.240 And Donald Trump isn't.

01:49:49.160 That's exactly why.

01:49:49.840 You know what it is?

01:49:50.700 There's there's there's actually one factor that steps in first when I when I think of

01:49:55.440 can someone survive a debate on a stage?

01:49:57.800 And it's wit.

01:49:59.840 It's you.

01:50:00.620 It's your quick, quick responsiveness.

01:50:02.860 Simply put, when I see DeSantis speak.

01:50:06.120 I got to be honest, based on what I've seen of him speaking and seen of you speaking,

01:50:10.580 you seem like DeSantis will say, make a point.

01:50:14.240 And you'll already have in your mind 10 counters, 10 additional statements to make ready to rapid

01:50:19.160 fire.

01:50:19.660 I don't see that for DeSantis.

01:50:21.160 I think I think I appreciate the compliment on skill or whatever.

01:50:23.840 I don't think it's skill, though.

01:50:25.460 I think the reason at the heart of wit is actually having beliefs.

01:50:30.220 Yeah.

01:50:30.700 Deep seated beliefs.

01:50:31.780 And I think that like if you just take about it, I mean, if you just if you just take

01:50:35.240 the take the example of like whatever the response to the Trump indictment or whatever,

01:50:39.040 right?

01:50:40.460 It took him like a solid couple of days to muster up some sort of response.

01:50:45.080 Then after two weeks, then you get all the advice and the policy planning, et cetera.

01:50:49.020 OK, let's play this exactly right.

01:50:51.460 Let's say we'll extradite him because then we know he's going to actually surrender.

01:50:55.000 So we look like we have the upper hand.

01:50:56.420 And it's so calculated, dude.

01:50:58.020 Let me ask you.

01:50:58.420 Let me ask you.

01:50:58.800 Yeah.

01:50:59.280 What the moment the news came down that Trump would be indicted, what would you have said

01:51:04.280 in your press conference?

01:51:05.240 I did say it.

01:51:06.340 Oh, what did you say?

01:51:07.000 I literally said it.

01:51:07.680 Yeah.

01:51:07.780 I mean, like like I just I woke up that morning.

01:51:10.000 We probably pull up the video on Twitter.

01:51:11.140 Maybe pull it up after this.

01:51:12.440 Check it out.

01:51:13.260 I just found on Saturday when we're campaigning in South Carolina.

01:51:15.240 It's a Saturday morning when I woke up.

01:51:16.600 Apparently, news came out Friday night or that Saturday morning when I woke up.

01:51:19.300 I saw it.

01:51:21.160 This is wrong.

01:51:22.260 This is un-American.

01:51:23.380 We're not a country where the party in power uses power, police power to risk political opponents.

01:51:28.520 And why did I speak up?

01:51:29.440 I thought I had credibility because I'm running against Donald Trump.

01:51:32.220 And this is before he'd been indicted.

01:51:33.720 I thought that if more people who are running against Trump on principled ground came out

01:51:38.220 against it, I have this legal background, et cetera, pointed out a lot of the flaws about

01:51:41.800 what was reported about the potential case.

01:51:43.300 I thought it would have the potential to avert a bad thing from happening.

01:51:47.400 I thought that those of us in this race competing against Donald Trump could publicly.

01:51:51.580 So I gave a speech in South Carolina that day.

01:51:53.060 Nikki Haley spoke at the same place as she spoke on stage.

01:51:55.040 I went on after I held a press conference right there with a little press gaggle afterwards.

01:51:58.620 I said, I call on everybody, prospectively or otherwise in this race.

01:52:01.800 Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley included by tomorrow morning to join me in calling on Manhattan

01:52:05.440 DA, Alvin Bragg, from pursuing this politicized prosecution.

01:52:11.900 A million people saw it.

01:52:13.220 Not a word from Ron DeSantis, though.

01:52:14.900 Not a word from Ron DeSantis.

01:52:15.960 Until the weeks later when he maps out, okay, the political strategies, the advisors, what

01:52:19.440 do we do?

01:52:19.960 Oh, I have an idea, guys.

01:52:21.300 I don't think Trump will actually stay in Florida.

01:52:24.040 So let's be the ones who say after he says he won't actually do it within 48 hours.

01:52:29.400 But then two weeks later, it's like, oh, well, maybe we can bluff that we won't get involved

01:52:33.780 in an extradition process so that we look stronger.

01:52:35.640 It's just calculus.

01:52:36.720 But so this is this.

01:52:38.100 He I 10 favorability points in the gutter for DeSantis for me on this one, because what

01:52:42.540 does he do?

01:52:42.960 He comes out and says, look, we're not getting involved in whatever this is.

01:52:46.520 I don't know what goes into paying a porn star hush money.

01:52:49.680 So and then virtue signal to his base by saying Soros as many times as he can.

01:52:53.580 Right.

01:52:54.040 Yes.

01:52:54.440 And it was so forced.

01:52:55.460 But some Soros back.

01:52:57.460 It's just like, you know, George is a bad guy.

01:52:59.660 But but he's saying that for a different reason to cover up for his failure to actually have

01:53:03.260 courage to stand against the indictment of Donald Trump.

01:53:06.060 I'll tell you what I want to hear.

01:53:07.660 And I want to hear it because it's what I would say.

01:53:09.860 The moment the news came down of a pending indictment, I would hold a press conference

01:53:14.440 and I would look directly into the cameras and say, mark my words.

01:53:18.760 No one will lay one finger on Donald Trump in my state.

01:53:22.580 There will not be an extradition.

01:53:25.100 And that is that the moment that came out.

01:53:27.340 So so you look at it.

01:53:28.720 Yeah.

01:53:28.880 So you look at the moment that I came out.

01:53:30.580 Look at what I said.

01:53:31.560 Look around this and I said this isn't a competition on this one thing.

01:53:34.140 This is symptomatic.

01:53:34.920 Same thing.

01:53:35.220 Silicon Valley Bank.

01:53:35.980 I don't know where you are on that stuff, but I was the staunch opponent of government

01:53:40.120 intervention for a protected class favored bailout.

01:53:43.580 They got it.

01:53:44.400 He didn't say they got it.

01:53:45.440 And again, and again, I'm in I'm in this for the country.

01:53:47.680 Right.

01:53:47.880 So in Trump's case, as in that case, I was in the pages of The Wall Street Journal before

01:53:51.960 Janet Yellen's press conference.

01:53:53.060 Why?

01:53:53.660 Because I think we can actually sometimes those of us who have public positions of authority

01:53:57.680 platforms, et cetera, can at least help influence the dialogue.

01:54:00.500 I didn't I didn't succeed on my own.

01:54:02.120 Then where was Ron DeSantis?

01:54:03.560 He didn't say a word after that bailout.

01:54:04.840 You don't know why?

01:54:05.540 Because one of the Silicon Valley venture capitalists, David Sachs and others who were clamoring for

01:54:10.000 their own.

01:54:10.700 And I guess it's not their fault.

01:54:11.900 It's not if you're arguing for people giving you money, I guess that's not your fault.

01:54:15.060 It's just other people's fault for believing you.

01:54:16.920 Yeah.

01:54:17.240 What does he do?

01:54:17.800 He's hosting.

01:54:18.400 He's the guy who then hosts a fundraiser for Ro Khanna, the Democratic congressman who

01:54:22.400 lobbies for a bailout.

01:54:23.420 Turns out to be a big fundraiser holding fundraisers for DeSantis.

01:54:26.100 Really?

01:54:26.620 Absolutely.

01:54:27.340 Wow.

01:54:27.840 So this is this is how the system works.

01:54:30.020 Yeah.

01:54:30.120 You know, the professional politician class, I'm not faulting DeSantis for not having money

01:54:34.120 to be able to sell fund or whatever.

01:54:35.380 It's just you're captured.

01:54:37.240 You're captured by the system.

01:54:38.400 You've convinced me of a lot this year today, Vivek.

01:54:41.840 You know, I I mainly want Trump right now because one, I think his foreign policy was just

01:54:47.340 beautiful.

01:54:48.620 Not perfect.

01:54:49.740 But it's good.

01:54:50.360 It was strong.

01:54:51.040 Yeah.

01:54:51.260 And I'm still going to go further than he did with that America first agenda on the

01:54:54.120 foreign policy side.

01:54:54.920 We could have used the military to secure the border.

01:54:58.560 The wall was never going to be enough.

01:55:00.060 But but the small stuff, I mean, we can pick it building not small stuff, big stuff.

01:55:03.100 But you can always even after I'm in for four years, somebody is going to be able to point

01:55:06.660 to things that I didn't do just because you don't get to them in four years.

01:55:09.180 So I'm with you on that.

01:55:10.420 I think you're you're you're really taking DeSantis down a peg or two.

01:55:14.980 And I'm not saying that in a disrespect disrespectful or like I'm trying to be mean.

01:55:20.060 I'm trying to say like a lot of people don't know about who's behind Ron DeSantis.

01:55:23.480 I don't think there necessarily needs to be any kind of like, I hate you.

01:55:27.620 You hate me.

01:55:28.020 No, not at all.

01:55:28.880 Because I think he's done a good job.

01:55:30.380 But I actually think he's a governor in Florida.

01:55:32.560 He's a good governor.

01:55:33.660 I think he's a governor.

01:55:34.760 People are saying like Trump, then DeSantis.

01:55:36.360 And I'm like, I don't know, maybe I think it's probably you in terms of anyone I've heard

01:55:41.740 talk about their plans, the agenda, what's going on in this country.

01:55:45.200 You've you've said more to me that matters than even Trump has ever said.

01:55:48.420 And the thing about Trump is I think he's got a substantially higher likelihood of winning

01:55:53.680 this election.

01:55:54.680 And I think the revenge is going to result in a schedule F termination of all these bureaucrats.

01:55:59.880 I think you'd likely do that, too.

01:56:01.860 If you win the nomination, you've got my vote.

01:56:04.020 Thanks, man.

01:56:04.300 I appreciate it.

01:56:05.800 And I'll take your vote in the primary, too, even if I'm not going to win.

01:56:08.240 So you know what I mean?

01:56:08.900 So I'll take that, too.

01:56:10.460 The the.

01:56:11.840 Ian's a big fan, by the way, too.

01:56:13.220 What's that?

01:56:13.700 Ian's a huge fan.

01:56:15.180 Ian Cross.

01:56:15.580 Oh, nice.

01:56:16.280 He's he's he's he's constantly bringing up.

01:56:18.620 He's not in the room right now.

01:56:19.460 But OK, OK.

01:56:20.000 But then tell him I said, hey, yeah, I thought I was looking over here like the funny thing

01:56:23.260 about you pointed over here.

01:56:24.340 So well, he normally sits over there.

01:56:25.960 OK, but but Ian is just this very, very, I don't know, confident and he says stuff like

01:56:33.320 I should be Vivek's VP.

01:56:35.220 I should be.

01:56:35.940 I'm like, OK, Ian, I'm going to be, you know, I appreciate I appreciate the vote of confidence

01:56:43.040 or whatever, but let's just say it's a couple of things about the Schedule F thing, because

01:56:46.400 this is a good example of even going further than Trump did.

01:56:48.940 So let's talk about your audience probably knows this.

01:56:51.080 I don't need to bore you with the details.

01:56:52.520 But the basic gist is they want to cleanse the administrative state.

01:56:57.060 And so what do they do?

01:56:57.840 They came up with a clever solution.

01:56:59.020 I know the people in the White House, in the Trump White House who were advancing this.

01:57:02.540 In fact, I've actually given them some advice on this particular path.

01:57:05.860 They've asked for it and I've given it to them.

01:57:08.120 And I think it's a positive step forward.

01:57:11.160 So what they're saying is, OK, there's civil service protections, laws passed by Congress

01:57:16.220 that say you can't fire bureaucrats.

01:57:17.640 But there are exceptions to those civil service protections that say if you're in a policymaking

01:57:21.300 role, then the president can fire you.

01:57:23.280 Even if you're in a technical bureaucratic role, they can't.

01:57:26.520 So that's called Schedule F, effectively.

01:57:28.660 I'm simplifying it.

01:57:29.780 But what it means is then they said, OK, we're going to redefine that more broadly to say that

01:57:34.680 more of those roles are policymaking roles so we can fire more of those people.

01:57:37.620 I'm all in favor of that.

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01:58:38.480 When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops.

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01:58:48.120 that we really care about you.

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01:59:03.860 Did I mention that we care?

01:59:05.280 That's still small ball.

01:59:09.280 You want to know what the right answer is?

01:59:11.060 Yeah, what is it?

01:59:11.560 Article 2 of the Constitution.

01:59:13.660 Read against those civil service protections and then read the civil service protections

01:59:16.760 carefully measured against a different statute called the presidential reorganization powers.

01:59:21.340 I don't think we need Schedule F.

01:59:23.200 You could just do it right now.

01:59:24.740 And I'll tell you, you know, Trump has been a CEO.

01:59:26.720 I've been a CEO.

01:59:27.540 I've built the company, multi-billion dollar business, you know, different kind of company.

01:59:30.920 But we've both been in the private sector.

01:59:32.220 I'll bring you a simple understanding of the Article 2 of the Constitution.

01:59:35.240 Take my Yale Law School hat off and put on my CEO hat, okay?

01:59:38.860 If somebody works for you and you can't fire them, they don't work for you.

01:59:42.920 It means you work for them because you're responsible for what they do without having

01:59:48.500 any authority over it.

01:59:49.380 That's the position that Trump put himself in.

01:59:51.120 So you know what?

01:59:51.560 I'd fire him.

01:59:52.320 So you know what would happen, and this is why Trump didn't do it, is that they would

01:59:54.960 sue and they would take that to the Supreme Court.

01:59:57.280 Well, guess what?

01:59:57.660 I've studied the current Supreme Court.

01:59:59.860 The composition, and I give Trump some credit for this because he helped create the composition

02:00:02.600 of that Supreme Court.

02:00:03.900 So full props to my man Trump for that, okay?

02:00:06.760 But now use it.

02:00:08.720 Use it in your favor.

02:00:10.620 Those guys agree with this position.

02:00:13.220 So let's say we do that.

02:00:13.980 What do we do?

02:00:15.020 We permanently codify the end of the administrative permanent state that rules the president.

02:00:20.900 That we ensure the people who we elect to run the government, who would have ever thought,

02:00:25.020 end up being the people who actually run the government?

02:00:26.800 Because then it's not just during my term in office.

02:00:29.220 That's codified in precedent by the Supreme Court and any future president.

02:00:32.900 What do I say?

02:00:33.360 It's the model of Trump had his four years, did what he could, dropped the mic off, pick

02:00:36.720 it up, take it to the next first down, drop the mic.

02:00:40.660 The next guy picks it up.

02:00:41.560 I've made his job easier because we codified that in Supreme Court precedent itself.

02:00:46.080 So that's the way we got to be thinking.

02:00:48.060 You know what I mean?

02:00:48.420 And just to sort of finish getting this thought on the table, because I think it goes to the

02:00:51.760 distinction between Trump and me and goes to, look, I'm an America first guy.

02:00:55.900 I'm a pro-Trump guy, 2020, all in for him.

02:01:00.300 America first, MAGA.

02:01:02.460 These ideas do not belong to any one man.

02:01:06.020 They are bigger than any of us.

02:01:07.740 It's bigger than Donald Trump.

02:01:09.240 It is bigger than me.

02:01:10.180 We are vehicles for advancing that agenda.

02:01:12.860 It is bigger than the Republican Party.

02:01:14.520 In fact, we're just co-opting the Republican Party to advance this agenda.

02:01:17.860 So it's even bigger than partisan politics, which means you can unite the country where

02:01:21.540 a lot of independents and even some weird Democrats are actually going to come along

02:01:25.040 with this.

02:01:26.160 That is what this is about.

02:01:28.020 And I will take that further than Trump ever did.

02:01:31.100 That's just my distinction from Trump, from two people who are arm in arms.

02:01:33.740 I'll tell you this, too.

02:01:35.340 If Donald Trump wins, I will help him.

02:01:37.480 If I win, I expect and hope and fully expect that Trump will help me.

02:01:41.740 I will take him as an advisor.

02:01:43.300 But it's about getting the agenda advanced.

02:01:45.900 I don't need professional plastic politicians doing it.

02:01:48.100 And DeSantis should govern in Florida.

02:01:49.720 But I think that when we're talking about actually reforming the country, that's the

02:01:53.160 way this looks.

02:01:54.500 And I think we can't.

02:01:55.460 I think we're going to do it.

02:01:56.740 I think we'll get it done.

02:01:57.420 We had Milo Yiannopoulos on the show a few months ago.

02:02:02.260 And this was, I think, back in October or November.

02:02:05.420 And I asked him, he said, he says, Daddy Trump all the way.

02:02:07.900 It's going to be Trump.

02:02:08.840 And I asked him about Ron DeSantis.

02:02:10.700 And he goes, Ron, he goes on to say that Ron DeSantis has no charisma.

02:02:14.740 And he says he has the charisma of something off putting, like when you're reaching for

02:02:19.780 something and you accidentally touch a wet sponge.

02:02:21.980 And I was like, that was one of the best on the fly smackdowns of anyone ever.

02:02:29.220 And I'm not like, you know, we're going to, I assume we're going to talk to Ron DeSantis

02:02:32.900 at some point.

02:02:33.500 I assume we're going to talk to his team and everything like that.

02:02:35.580 And they're probably just getting all pissed off at me because I bring these things up.

02:02:38.440 And it's just such a good hit from Milo as to why he doesn't think DeSantis has it.

02:02:44.720 And that's ad hominem.

02:02:45.540 So I'm not even bringing that.

02:02:46.680 It's not ad hominem.

02:02:47.280 I mean, it's personal, but let me just professional politicians, the problem, the charisma, people

02:02:51.800 didn't bring this up, but it's not a skill set.

02:02:54.400 It's, it's, it's a symptom of lacking.

02:02:56.840 When you have conviction, there's a lot of ways to have charisma, right?

02:03:00.780 Robert F. Kennedy, by the way, he's going to come on my podcast pretty soon too.

02:03:05.100 I invited him.

02:03:05.980 I keep running as Democrat.

02:03:06.860 I don't care.

02:03:07.360 So, so he's going to have two contenders, you know, whatever, but, but, but not even just

02:03:10.960 two people who care, who care about the country and are willing to be heterodox in their

02:03:14.240 respective parties in different ways.

02:03:15.900 We're going to have a conversation.

02:03:17.280 You know, he's not, he's not what your textbook example of what you would learn in third grade

02:03:22.000 for being charismatic as a speaker, but he has a certain charisma about him because the

02:03:27.520 charisma is just a vehicle for conviction.

02:03:31.040 Yeah.

02:03:31.300 When Ron DeSantis doesn't lack charisma, he lacks conviction, right?

02:03:34.540 And any professional politician does too.

02:03:36.700 Ukraine, I was here.

02:03:37.620 Oh no, I was here.

02:03:38.280 Except when Tucker asked me to, oh wait, people push back.

02:03:40.440 Oh, then I'm actually not there in Ukraine.

02:03:41.760 You can't be a flag waving in whatever direction the wind blows.

02:03:44.680 Because when, when, when Ron DeSantis talks about any of these issues, I don't, I don't

02:03:48.060 feel it.

02:03:48.780 Yeah.

02:03:48.940 You don't feel it.

02:03:49.280 He says, look, we can't have these kids undergoing these kinds of sex change operations,

02:03:54.900 not in our state.

02:03:56.700 Look, the Soros DAs, I, you don't trust them because, and I'm just like, I don't feel it.

02:04:02.080 You guys, I don't give you that script, man.

02:04:03.420 We all know it.

02:04:04.160 We all know somebody gave you that script.

02:04:05.220 But now the point is, actually, here's something I would like, you can make the other candidates

02:04:09.620 do this with me.

02:04:10.640 No teleprompters, no written speeches by others.

02:04:13.580 That seems like a basic table stakes rule.

02:04:15.540 Probably the primary, will, will the primary process be better off or worse off if you got

02:04:20.120 rid of red written speeches by others and no teleprompters?

02:04:23.340 I think it's strictly better.

02:04:24.380 I mean, the people are at least better off.

02:04:26.440 So that's, I know Trump can handle it.

02:04:27.680 Trump can handle it.

02:04:28.460 In fact, I think he's better that his, his, his handlers try to put him on the teleprompter.

02:04:33.100 He's worse at it too.

02:04:34.040 I agree.

02:04:34.440 He's better when he's off.

02:04:35.460 Yep.

02:04:35.620 So that's just advice.

02:04:36.660 It's fun.

02:04:37.040 It's funny.

02:04:37.660 It's fun.

02:04:38.040 He has more fun.

02:04:38.880 And I do it too.

02:04:39.560 I mean, I don't, I don't use that stuff anyway.

02:04:41.400 It's because it's not fun.

02:04:42.760 Yeah, Trump's funnier than you though.

02:04:43.980 Trump is funnier than me.

02:04:45.060 You know, I actually, I actually had, you haven't let me see my true colors yet though,

02:04:48.780 but, but he's, he's a pretty funny guy.

02:04:50.100 So I'm not going to like, I'm not going to.

02:04:51.240 I just want to say.

02:04:51.880 I'm going to diss him on that.

02:04:52.720 I've been to multiple Trump rallies.

02:04:54.160 He's pretty, yeah.

02:04:54.800 He's, he's, I've been a couple.

02:04:55.940 It's standup comedy.

02:05:04.040 I have some humility.

02:05:04.620 Trump is, Trump is probably just on stage more of a, it's like being raw funny.

02:05:09.740 He's a funnier guy.

02:05:10.500 But, but I'm, but you haven't seen me in action yet.

02:05:12.260 So we'll, we'll sort of get some, but anyway, I love when he's, he, he went to the rally

02:05:16.000 one time and he goes, the lights, they make me look orange.

02:05:19.380 So he knows.

02:05:20.640 But that's not, but that's not the teleprompter, right?

02:05:22.240 So I would say get rid of the teleprompter, get rid of the written speeches.

02:05:25.740 Just, just, that's an easy thing for candidates to do.

02:05:28.440 But the thing is, as it relates to, as it relates to DeSantis,

02:05:34.040 and it relates to people like him, okay, it's not even that you can't grab the beer

02:05:40.400 with him or the charisma.

02:05:41.420 It's not the personal skillset because, because like Mike Pence is a much more personable guy

02:05:45.880 or Nikki Haley is, you know, in a certain sense of the word personable.

02:05:50.200 It's that they actually are just designed to be stuffed suits, the equivalent of a flag

02:05:56.560 that waves in whatever direction the wind blows on a given day.

02:05:59.860 And like our base, our movement, maybe the Republican party is different than our movement

02:06:03.540 that I'm talking about.

02:06:04.500 You're not part of the Republican party.

02:06:05.800 Our movement doesn't want that.

02:06:07.320 You want the real thing.

02:06:08.820 But it's, it's younger people.

02:06:09.880 I think, I think that's really the divide.

02:06:11.840 The left has their version with the, the, the AOC types, you know?

02:06:15.460 Yeah.

02:06:15.640 But I think even, oh, you mean younger candidates, younger voters?

02:06:18.220 Cause I don't, I think this is, see, I think this is true about older voters too in the

02:06:21.340 country.

02:06:21.540 When I travel across the country, you know, begin to go to Iowa, New Hampshire, et cetera.

02:06:25.320 I think there are people who are 62 years old.

02:06:27.300 You're right.

02:06:27.580 Who still, who still want the thing that I'm talking about, which is somebody who's outside of the

02:06:31.580 professional politician mold.

02:06:33.580 Let me, let me say you are correct.

02:06:34.840 I was wrong.

02:06:35.320 And, and I'll clarify as I think about it, it's a lot of these older people who've never

02:06:39.180 voted before or who are now, are now saying, finally, we have an option.

02:06:43.260 Yeah.

02:06:43.840 And I think, I think that I'm not a political analyst.

02:06:46.360 So everything I said so far is much more important than what I'm about to say.

02:06:49.580 But I think that there's a, there's an interesting convergence.

02:06:52.540 Speaking of two rivers colliding and creating a force 10 times more powerful.

02:06:56.540 This is the good version of that between, I would say our MAGA base and kind of like

02:07:02.080 the old school Ron Paul base, right?

02:07:04.860 That that's converging right now against the administrative police.

02:07:07.900 I'm the only person I've said, I'll shut down the FBI on a layoff.

02:07:10.480 90% of the people in the federal reserve.

02:07:12.200 I actually have a deep, I have a deep view on the federal reserve needs to go back to

02:07:17.240 bodyguards, narrow purpose.

02:07:18.600 I actually do now.

02:07:19.580 So that's good news.

02:07:20.580 Um, but you know, and it's, it's good to be, uh, you know, I'll live the full arc of

02:07:25.540 the American dream.

02:07:26.280 We're making the sacrifice to put money in this campaign, but yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll

02:07:29.580 take the steps we need to as a family to do that and protect ourselves.

02:07:32.500 Cause some of the stuff I'm saying, even about the trans movement right now is, is making

02:07:35.840 people mad.

02:07:36.820 But anyway, put that to one side.

02:07:38.320 The point is, I think there's an opportunity where the kinds of people that were behind

02:07:44.260 Ron, Ron Paul in 2008, I think combined with our MAGA movement.

02:07:48.940 I mean, that's a, the America first movement broadly.

02:07:52.560 I think, I think that together is the superset of what we call the America first movement

02:07:56.700 today.

02:07:58.660 Let's not make it about the person this time, make it about the agenda and then pick who's

02:08:04.660 going to be the best vehicle.

02:08:05.860 It's like, it's like we're on a team and we're taking it to the end zone.

02:08:08.800 Let's get our first downs to take it all the way.

02:08:11.240 Trump got it pretty far.

02:08:12.980 My goal is I want to be the guy that gets it to the end zone.

02:08:15.120 If I don't get all the way there, I'll drop the mic, give it to the next guy and lay the

02:08:17.540 path for him to score the touchdown.

02:08:19.160 This is what I've said of Trump.

02:08:19.980 He's, he was the avatar of the rage felt by regular Americans because of the administrative

02:08:25.380 state.

02:08:25.720 He was a vehicle for grievance.

02:08:26.620 Yeah.

02:08:27.240 And so Michael Moore said that he was a human Molotov cocktail, the biggest FU.

02:08:33.300 I mean, Michael Moore's speech was actually really brilliant until he made the big mistake.

02:08:36.880 I don't know if you heard it.

02:08:37.540 He said, he said, you know, he explains a bunch of the problems in this country.

02:08:42.260 Donald Trump is the first person.

02:08:44.340 He walks into these auto manufacturers and says, if you build these cars overseas, I

02:08:48.080 will tax you 30% and no one will buy your car again.

02:08:51.320 And that resonated with these working class people who have seen their industry.

02:08:54.160 I think it resonated with Michael Moore.

02:08:55.840 It did.

02:08:56.520 I think it resonated with Michael Moore.

02:08:57.560 He won't admit it, but yeah.

02:08:58.740 I know because he's this guy.

02:09:00.200 He's this Michigan working class.

02:09:01.480 Absolutely.

02:09:02.220 Supposed to be.

02:09:03.200 And then he made, he said, so people will vote for Donald Trump and it will be the biggest

02:09:07.600 FU in history and he was like, and they'll be happy for a month, maybe a year.

02:09:14.040 And then they'll start to realize full stop.

02:09:16.060 That's where he, that's where he lost it.

02:09:17.240 Okay.

02:09:17.500 They were happy the whole time.

02:09:18.920 And then they wanted Trump again.

02:09:20.560 And then when Trump didn't get it, they were really angry to the point where they couldn't

02:09:23.860 believe he would lose.

02:09:25.240 And they still want Donald Trump.

02:09:27.540 But it's because in my view, Trump is the avatar.

02:09:30.440 He is a bully.

02:09:31.900 And I mean, in a good way, he is the guy, he's the bully, but he's standing in front of you.

02:09:36.340 So those people who are picking on you the whole time, you know what we should do, Tim?

02:09:40.440 It just occurs to me.

02:09:41.680 Like, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt this train of thought.

02:09:43.200 That was it.

02:09:44.140 We should have a, what's your, your evening show.

02:09:47.420 What's it called?

02:09:48.020 Timcast.

02:09:48.500 Timcast IRL.

02:09:48.780 Timcast IRL.

02:09:49.320 Yeah.

02:09:49.440 Yeah.

02:09:49.620 The one I came on.

02:09:50.680 We should have one with me and Trump both on.

02:09:52.680 Okay.

02:09:53.080 Let's do that actually.

02:09:54.000 Sure.

02:09:54.580 Yeah.

02:09:54.820 It'd be fun.

02:09:56.560 I think, I think we could smoke some of this out.

02:09:58.620 I think it'd be fun.

02:09:59.080 Trump's a friend too.

02:09:59.840 I mean, we will.

02:10:00.480 If you can organize us sitting down with Donald Trump, we will gladly make that happen.

02:10:04.600 Yeah.

02:10:04.780 Well, I mean, why not?

02:10:06.080 Let's have at it.

02:10:06.800 And I think we've been talking about it.

02:10:08.160 I'll tell you this.

02:10:08.880 The Trump of 2015 would have done it.

02:10:11.480 Definitely.

02:10:12.040 No, I think Trump in 2015 would have done it.

02:10:15.060 I'm not going to be the same person eight years from now.

02:10:16.980 And so, so, you know, he's, he's been in, you know, he's been through, he's been through

02:10:20.320 a hellish eight years too.

02:10:21.360 So I don't know if, I don't know if he would say yes to that, but the Trump of 2015 definitely

02:10:24.920 is a yes.

02:10:25.740 The me of today, definitely a yes.

02:10:27.600 And I think, and Ron DeSantis is definitely a no.

02:10:29.160 It's just an issue of, it's not an issue of whether I think either of you'd be willing

02:10:32.480 to do a sit down.

02:10:33.240 It's a question of, am I, is, is, is like Tim Pool, the guy to go on, you know what I

02:10:38.180 mean?

02:10:38.280 Like, look, go on Joe Rogan.

02:10:39.820 Yeah, fine.

02:10:40.320 Let's do it.

02:10:40.620 So, so my thing is like, whenever I, whenever I hear this, you know, I shout out to Ian,

02:10:44.160 who's always saying things like, he's like, we should get Brad Pitt on the show.

02:10:47.160 And I'm like, okay, look, dude, like we don't have the poll for this.

02:10:50.880 I think, I think you're doing all right in the conservative movement though.

02:10:53.040 Yeah.

02:10:53.320 But anyway, but put that more than all right.

02:10:55.660 And it's not in the conservative movement, but.

02:10:57.300 But here's the, here's the, here's the issue.

02:10:59.120 I think it's kind of interesting.

02:10:59.940 When I say, when I say, when I say that we're doing to Trump in 2015, I mean like going on

02:11:03.720 Joe Rogan is like the, everyone says to me, that's, that's the thing you're supposed

02:11:06.760 to do next.

02:11:07.120 But I'll tell you, I'll tell you why it's actually kind of interesting to take the, the

02:11:11.320 off the beaten track conversations actually, I think are, are equally interesting.

02:11:15.180 The reason why so many people like Tim cast IRL, for those that don't know, I'm assuming

02:11:20.140 it was a nightly show at 8 PM is because the audience is moderate.

02:11:25.160 It's mostly middle of the road.

02:11:27.460 It's like we've pulled a couple of times.

02:11:29.880 It's decently libertarian.

02:11:31.680 The largest faction are disaffected liberal moderate types.

02:11:35.360 Really?

02:11:35.880 Yep.

02:11:36.160 And then conservatives actually, I think, I think it's, uh, I think conservatives are

02:11:41.680 the, like Trump supporting conservatives are the third biggest.

02:11:44.360 So it's principally middle of the road people.

02:11:47.680 They they're probably voting for Trump.

02:11:49.020 They may consider themselves conservative now, but they traditionally were not followed

02:11:52.480 by libertarians, followed by actual conservatives who have like been conservative for a long

02:11:56.280 time.

02:11:57.060 And I think it's kind of obvious why, because that's, that's where I'm at.

02:12:00.720 I'm, I was, I grew up in Chicago as a Chicago urban liberal and then said, these people

02:12:05.000 are corrupt find myself voting for Trump, but I'm not a staunch conservative.

02:12:08.680 So my opinions probably resonate more with that group than with like diehard conservative

02:12:13.660 Trump supporters.

02:12:14.560 So what ends up happening is we don't have the biggest show in the world.

02:12:17.360 We do have like typically the biggest live stream on YouTube for the time slot, but the, but

02:12:23.180 we had Marjorie Taylor Greene on the show and the response was amazing.

02:12:26.380 People saying, I've never heard her speak before.

02:12:28.380 I thought she was insane.

02:12:29.500 Well, of course, Trump supporters and conservatives have heard her speak.

02:12:31.920 Yeah.

02:12:32.100 So they like her and they vote for her.

02:12:33.460 But regular people thought she was just insane based on the news reports.

02:12:37.880 Steve Bannon comes on the show and they say, I didn't realize Bannon was like this economic

02:12:42.240 populist guy.

02:12:42.960 I thought he was a racist.

02:12:44.420 I've never heard him speak before.

02:12:46.020 And so we're not getting the millions of views of like Steve Crowder or whatever, or Steve

02:12:50.300 Bannon, but we're, we're, we're reaching a group of people that everyone's kind of fighting

02:12:54.440 over, which is the moderate middle of the road kind of, kind of voice that that's who

02:12:59.520 I feel like where I'm at.

02:13:01.600 I don't like the Democrats.

02:13:02.880 I don't like Joe Biden.

02:13:03.640 I don't like the establishment.

02:13:04.620 We want viable alternatives.

02:13:06.420 Trump has his issues, but I'll vote for him because he does things that I like, especially

02:13:09.300 with foreign policy.

02:13:10.160 Whereas the hardcore Trump supporters vote for Trump basically at this point, no matter

02:13:14.120 what, because they're like, he's our guy.

02:13:15.960 So long story short, maybe we can get you and Trump to sit down together simply because

02:13:21.840 there are people in the, you know, we reach a lot of these independents and moderates

02:13:25.420 who want to, want to know the difference and want to hear it.

02:13:27.860 But I got to be honest.

02:13:29.000 I think the reason Trump might not do it is because you're going to, you're going to

02:13:32.720 win.

02:13:33.920 You, Trump's, Trump's, you're going to bring up very specific things.

02:13:37.000 Trump's not going to be familiar with.

02:13:38.160 He's not going to want to sit for two hours.

02:13:40.320 And if Trump does get up and leave and you stick around, that gives you the final word.

02:13:43.800 I think that's the risk to anybody in politics.

02:13:47.040 To put it simply, I mean, you have the energy, the knowledge and the willingness that I don't

02:13:51.540 think other people have.

02:13:52.580 And you know what, if I'm twice my age or even eight years from now after running the

02:13:56.400 country for eight years, I'm not going to be, I'm probably not gonna be the same person

02:13:58.660 now either, right?

02:13:59.460 I'm going to have wrinkles, going to be tired, don't have fresh legs anymore.

02:14:02.960 Or, yeah, I mean, that's just the way the system works is it can't be tethered.

02:14:07.700 I mean, if you believe in America first, it's bigger than one man.

02:14:11.060 Let's, let's treat it accordingly.

02:14:12.560 So let me, let me, let me ask you a direct question, I guess.

02:14:14.680 I don't, I guess you don't have to answer, but are you a billionaire?

02:14:17.680 I'm close.

02:14:19.240 I think I don't look at my bank out every day.

02:14:21.260 I think there have been days where I have been, but in North a half of billions is the

02:14:26.440 zip code on that.

02:14:27.180 So my, my question for you then is I often say on the show, if, if I had the means and

02:14:35.060 the wealth and the resources, there are so many things that I would fire off on hiring

02:14:39.160 people, starting companies to win a culture war.

02:14:41.620 And I wonder why it is.

02:14:43.140 I'll give you my favorite example.

02:14:44.720 I was talking to Dave Smith.

02:14:46.420 He's potentially going to be the libertarian candidate.

02:14:48.660 And I, we were talking about the culture war efforts.

02:14:51.060 I said, I put Michael Malice on a billboard in times square as one of our recurring guests,

02:14:54.940 but it's because Michael Malice is one of my favorite people.

02:14:58.740 He's a, are you familiar with, with his work?

02:15:01.100 No, he's a personality.

02:15:02.460 He's a, he's an anarchist.

02:15:03.820 He's a, but he, he, he, he challenges the establishment in a very powerful way and he's

02:15:08.780 brilliant.

02:15:09.440 And I'm like having a guy like that on a times square billboard, and we did it more than

02:15:12.840 once, sends a message to the machine.

02:15:15.200 You are not the elites anymore.

02:15:16.680 And it was expensive.

02:15:17.980 And if I had half a billion dollars, I would buy times square and I would put all of these people

02:15:23.900 up there and say, we are coming.

02:15:26.000 We are taking over.

02:15:26.980 My question is, I suppose not for you because you're running for president, but there's,

02:15:31.720 there's gotta be a lot of people who have a ton of money who could write a check to someone

02:15:35.480 and say, win.

02:15:36.840 And I'm wondering why that doesn't happen again.

02:15:39.300 You're running for president.

02:15:40.220 Write a check to somebody else and say, win.

02:15:42.460 Well, what I mean to say is, oh, just like winning the market.

02:15:45.340 Well, like make a movie.

02:15:47.800 Yeah.

02:15:48.080 Make a movie.

02:15:48.460 I was going to say, well, actually, one of the things is making a movie.

02:15:50.240 Actually, look, buy magazine space, buy billboard space.

02:15:54.240 And I've thought about that.

02:15:55.260 I've looked at, I've looked at different ways of having an impact over the last few years.

02:15:58.560 You know, I found it.

02:15:59.060 But again, you're running for president, so I'm not.

02:16:00.360 Right, right, right.

02:16:00.860 No, no, no, but I mean, but I haven't gone through the journey of thinking about this.

02:16:04.180 So I started Strive.

02:16:05.460 You're familiar with Strive?

02:16:07.540 The capital investment?

02:16:08.940 Yeah, exactly.

02:16:09.600 Yeah.

02:16:09.820 I mean, so that's competing with BlackRock using shareholder pressure.

02:16:12.120 Right, absolutely.

02:16:12.640 On corporations.

02:16:13.520 We raised, I mean, it was.

02:16:15.460 But that's another reason why I say.

02:16:16.460 Over half a billion in three months, right?

02:16:17.680 That's why I'm not trying to lump you up.

02:16:19.760 Yeah, but what else would I tell other people to do?

02:16:21.560 Or why don't people do it?

02:16:22.160 Yeah, there's a lot of people that I know are doing a little.

02:16:26.840 Yeah, so here's one of the limitations I've found is that, and it's just getting real here.

02:16:33.760 I mean, I think that when it comes to business building, let's just take that avenue in particular,

02:16:39.780 it takes some rigor, it takes some discipline and skill that a lot of the people who are

02:16:47.500 most motivated by sort of the, I think the heart being in the right place, ideologically

02:16:52.960 and otherwise, it's just the sad truth, man.

02:16:57.040 Do not overlap with the same skill set that the people on the left have when it comes to

02:17:02.360 like, you know, build a tech company, build a banking institution, a financial institution.

02:17:06.320 And you're right, you're right.

02:17:07.020 And so for me, I'm at that unique intersection, right?

02:17:11.520 I mean, whatever the metrics are academically or in terms of financial or technical competence

02:17:17.200 or whatever on the left, like I'm going to be better than that 99.9% of the time, but

02:17:21.960 I have different value set.

02:17:23.660 And so that wasn't calling for me.

02:17:25.420 But I think one of the limitations that being in the front end of that, investing in other

02:17:29.020 companies and or starting them, I can just tell you the rate limiter on our side is in

02:17:36.100 that domain, the kind of talent that results in successful, large scale business building.

02:17:41.740 And I don't think that's permanent.

02:17:43.740 I think that that's, that's starting to backfill.

02:17:45.240 I think a lot of young people now are becoming disaffected from the, from the woke orthodoxies

02:17:49.940 that are, uh, I mean, this is what we are.

02:17:52.600 You know, we, I, I was, I was urban liberal Chicago and now I'm like, these people have

02:17:57.280 lost it.

02:17:57.840 Right.

02:17:58.200 You know, so, so what, what I've built here and the crew here, whatever, everything they've

02:18:01.920 built and all of our members have built is again, filling that backstop, as you said.

02:18:06.500 Yeah.

02:18:06.780 So I think that, I think that those opportunities exist.

02:18:09.380 We have to fit some, fix some of those rate limiters.

02:18:11.660 For me, it was just, there's no bigger way of having an impact on the country than running

02:18:14.200 Well, no, I mean, and obviously with Strive, with your books, like you're the last person

02:18:18.340 I'd be referring to.

02:18:18.960 You're doing too much, perhaps, but running the president is one of the biggest things.

02:18:22.600 Well, so one of the things that we've been talking about doing is a scattershot of culture

02:18:26.120 building.

02:18:26.780 And so the challenges I'm running into is managerial power to do it because we can only

02:18:31.780 grow as fast as we can grow with skill of people who are interested.

02:18:35.120 But the idea would be within my means, a $10,000 grant once a month to someone working on something

02:18:42.240 culturally so that the way I, I, I, it's, it's, it's, it's a scattershot of let's give a hundred

02:18:48.400 people 10 grand.

02:18:49.340 And then maybe one of them actually ends up making something big.

02:18:52.620 Yes.

02:18:53.140 I like, I like where your heart's at and where the spirit is.

02:18:55.520 I'm just telling you from experience, like these things take real effort, real discipline,

02:19:01.260 focus.

02:19:02.640 And the chance that the idea matches the reality is really itself a scattershot.

02:19:09.120 But that's why I say even the scattershot idea is itself part of a broader scattershot

02:19:12.720 is my point.

02:19:13.800 And so we'll see, I'm, I'm supportive of it.

02:19:15.720 I think experimentation's good.

02:19:17.240 I think that it will give encouragement to other people.

02:19:20.860 What we need is for the people who work for Disney, who know this stuff is bad to have

02:19:26.320 an alternative.

02:19:27.160 Totally.

02:19:27.400 Because they're saying, if I speak up, this is what they tell me all the time.

02:19:29.960 Totally.

02:19:30.240 I've got kids.

02:19:30.880 If I speak up, I'll lose my job.

02:19:32.140 Totally.

02:19:32.420 There needs to be a place where it's like, well, if you speak up, we'll hire you.

02:19:35.140 That's, that's a big part of it.

02:19:36.220 And then there's the version of what I was doing with strive and trying to do, uh, you know,

02:19:39.880 and that mission going forward is use shareholder power to change the existing institutions as

02:19:46.440 they exist.

02:19:47.200 Cause that's a big part of the reason they behave.

02:19:48.640 They, why they do is actually top down as well.

02:19:51.660 So, so there's no silver bullet to complex problems.

02:19:54.900 I see that there's a plethora of partial solutions.

02:19:57.780 That's the best you're going to get.

02:19:58.800 So it's, there's a role for everyone to play in bringing their own, building their piece

02:20:04.580 of the quilt.

02:20:05.040 And I think that creating new institutions from scratch, reforming existing institutions

02:20:10.080 in the private sector, setting a cultural revival, including through, through political

02:20:14.760 leadership from the top.

02:20:16.360 There's a role for each of these things.

02:20:18.640 Even in the university realm, there's people who are starting University of Austin.

02:20:21.660 People are starting, uh, you know, I would say Ralston college.

02:20:24.900 I don't know if you've heard of it in Georgia, you know, et cetera.

02:20:27.160 And then, and then there's reforming existing institutions.

02:20:30.580 It's, it's gotta be an all of the above approach.

02:20:34.120 And there, I just think sometimes we fall into the trap of those of us who have our

02:20:37.680 respective ideas.

02:20:38.460 Myself, I've fallen into this trap too.

02:20:40.120 If thinking that out, because it's the mouse trap that we're closest to, or have the skillset

02:20:43.840 that's most tied to, that we then want to sell to ourselves and then to the world, the

02:20:48.780 idea that that's the silver bullet.

02:20:50.260 Exactly.

02:20:50.860 And, and, and you can't fall in that trap.

02:20:52.340 And I, and even the presidency, you can't fall in that trap.

02:20:55.080 This is not, I can't fetishize that.

02:20:56.580 This is one of many, one of many bullets we're going to need.

02:20:58.920 This is what I mean when I say, going back to the definition of what wokeness is, a lot of

02:21:02.640 people apply it to their worldview as to what it is.

02:21:06.600 And there's something broader here.

02:21:07.920 Yeah.

02:21:08.260 So I think we're going to wind things down.

02:21:10.560 Yeah.

02:21:10.780 Any final thoughts you want to throw in there as we wrap it up?

02:21:15.660 Yeah.

02:21:16.040 I mean, look, I think, um,

02:21:21.040 I think that the, I mean, I'm campaigning across the country and it kind of relates to what we

02:21:25.340 were just talking about, you know, so maybe I'll just wrap with that is I think people

02:21:31.460 have this expectation and hope that someone, especially in politics, that someone from

02:21:37.700 on high is going to come and save us.

02:21:40.100 And I think that's part of the appeal that Trump taps into.

02:21:43.740 And he did do a lot in this country, but I think that it's less about any politician,

02:21:49.020 Trump or me or anybody else.

02:21:49.940 I think there's a mentality for our base and our movement.

02:21:53.460 The bad news is nobody is going to come from on high and save us.

02:21:58.540 It's not going to happen.

02:21:59.960 If we're going to be saved, it's going to be because we save ourselves.

02:22:04.840 All right.

02:22:05.340 And I think that once people get that sense, then that answers your question about why

02:22:10.000 aren't the other people stepping up with money or even with less money or whatever.

02:22:13.100 It's a mentality that you're waiting for somebody else to save you.

02:22:16.680 We have to save ourselves here.

02:22:19.840 And I think that that's the that's the mentality.

02:22:23.720 And I think if you're going to embrace that, I think human beings require some not false

02:22:27.080 optimism, but some reason to believe that they can be optimistic about the change that

02:22:33.060 they're going to be the way they're going to participate in us saving ourselves.

02:22:36.900 And the thing I'll say there is, look, we are we live in this moment where the thing

02:22:42.460 we're taught to believe is that we're on a path to a national divorce and or we're on

02:22:46.680 this inevitable national decline.

02:22:49.040 And I was in a pretty bad mood when I wrote my second book.

02:22:51.620 My whole second book, the premise of it was, are we Rome or got to the twist midway through?

02:22:57.900 Are we Carthage?

02:22:58.840 Because we should be so lucky as to be Rome.

02:23:00.540 Rome lasted a lot longer than America has lived so far.

02:23:02.580 Maybe we're just Carthage.

02:23:03.900 Yeah.

02:23:03.980 And I think that where I am now is I don't think we have to be either Rome or Carthage.

02:23:09.720 I'm like, both are bad.

02:23:10.700 Both are bad.

02:23:11.320 Both are bad.

02:23:11.960 It's bad news or worse news.

02:23:13.340 But actually, actually think of it this way, just as a thought experiment, put on the, put

02:23:17.160 on the possibility just, just for a second that we're just a little young.

02:23:23.320 Going through our version of adolescence.

02:23:26.600 We said we're lost in the desert, trans movement, woke movement, whatever.

02:23:29.520 We're lost.

02:23:30.220 Going through our version of adolescence, still figuring out who we really are.

02:23:37.580 And when you think of it that way, it takes the pressure off a little bit and gives us

02:23:44.300 a sense of direction that we're still maturing towards our version of adulthood.

02:23:50.560 And I think if we are not waiting for somebody to come from on high and lead us there, but

02:23:54.380 lead ourselves there, I don't know.

02:23:56.820 It seems a lot more tractable to me.

02:23:58.220 And I think I'm in a much more hopeful place than I was even a year and a half ago when

02:24:01.740 I was at the thick of writing that last book.

02:24:03.180 Yeah.

02:24:03.300 And there's, there's some victories to North Carolina Democrats, which is parties.

02:24:06.260 So, you know, what's going on.

02:24:07.220 There's a lot, a lot to be happy about every day you wake up to.

02:24:09.420 And I think that that becomes a lot easier.

02:24:11.120 Well, you know, we could do too.

02:24:13.300 I'm hoping, I don't know what's going to happen, that Dave Smith or somebody for the

02:24:16.720 libertarians, they announced they're, they're going to be running for the presidency.

02:24:20.200 And then I'd love to, if you'd be interested in sitting down with them.

02:24:22.920 And I mean, potentially, I mean, I don't, I don't know.

02:24:24.540 I mean, I, I want it.

02:24:25.420 It's somebody worthy of having, like, I like this chat because it's a worthy chat.

02:24:29.340 Dave Smith is like, you're from the Mises caucus?

02:24:32.840 The what?

02:24:33.320 The Mises.

02:24:33.860 Von Mises.

02:24:34.480 Yeah.

02:24:34.800 They basically took over the libertarian party because they have something behind them.

02:24:38.700 I'm a, I'm a Von Mises.

02:24:39.720 I like a lot of what Von Mises wrote.

02:24:41.300 So yeah.

02:24:41.740 Dave, Dave Smith is becoming particularly prominent.

02:24:46.380 And, and a lot of people are speculating he's going to be the libertarian candidate for president.

02:24:50.220 That's fine.

02:24:50.460 I mean, I think that I'm interested in anything that moves the ball forward.

02:24:54.520 I'm interested in, let's get Trump over here though.

02:24:56.960 Cause I think that's what we need to do.

02:24:58.480 Yeah.

02:24:58.580 That's the, that's the top of the mountain.

02:24:59.620 I think DeSantis would be boring.

02:25:01.960 So let's not waste our time with that.

02:25:03.980 But, but, but let's have, let's have a real conversation about where we're taking the

02:25:07.220 country forward.

02:25:07.680 Cause I'm not, I'm not, if we can find the right books and advance ideas, there's better ways

02:25:11.700 to do that than run for president.

02:25:12.580 We're running this to run the country.

02:25:14.080 I think that I'm where Trump was in 2015.

02:25:17.560 I want to take the agenda even further.

02:25:19.540 I think I can, but you know what?

02:25:21.060 Let's talk with, let's talk with the last guy who did it.

02:25:23.200 Let's do it.

02:25:23.580 And I'll recruit him to my advisor and I'll, you know, I'll probably help him if he ends

02:25:26.400 up being the guy, but I'm in this to be the guy.

02:25:28.320 So let's do it.

02:25:29.560 All right.

02:25:29.840 Thanks for hanging out.

02:25:30.580 This has been an absolute blast.

02:25:31.880 Yeah.

02:25:31.960 Thanks, man.

02:25:32.380 Are there any links or anything you want to mention?

02:25:34.620 You know what?

02:25:35.080 Actually, I'll, since you're, since you're mentioning it, vivek2024.com.

02:25:40.440 So V-I-V-E-K is my first name, vivek2024.com.

02:25:44.340 I said this at the beginning, you don't have to vote for me next year.

02:25:47.420 You don't even have to know who you're voting for.

02:25:49.540 Put a dollar in, put $5 in.

02:25:52.800 I want to be next to Trump on that debate stage so that we're advancing, not, not just

02:25:58.580 on the side.

02:25:59.100 We're going to be on the debate stage, you know, based on how we're doing with, you

02:26:01.860 know, all of our metrics.

02:26:02.980 But these ideas in front of the country, we need, we need to have the conversation we

02:26:06.640 have in front of the country.

02:26:07.620 So I don't care who you're voting for in the, in the primary or whatever, decide that

02:26:13.560 next year.

02:26:14.680 Literally, you can vote to have the debate that we're having.

02:26:18.580 Vote in favor of that.

02:26:19.940 You go to vivek2024.com, make it a $1, make it a $5 donation.

02:26:24.700 That will help make that happen.

02:26:26.280 Right on, man.

02:26:27.000 Yeah.

02:26:27.120 And, uh, if you like our show, become a member at timcast.com, join our discord server where

02:26:32.100 you can chat with all of our other members, share ideas.

02:26:35.200 One of the cool things we're doing for our members is that Fridays are going to be our

02:26:38.560 member sponsorship shout outs.

02:26:40.220 So instead of advertising some big corporation, we're going to choose one of your companies

02:26:44.520 and that will be the sponsor spot.

02:26:46.280 And, um, hopefully we'll be able to get that done today, which will be, uh, at 8 PM tonight.

02:26:50.140 So with that being said, Vivek, it's been an absolute blast.

02:26:52.840 It was an honor and a privilege.

02:26:53.880 You are a scholar and a gentleman.

02:26:55.660 And good seeing you, man.

02:26:56.880 Likewise.

02:26:57.620 And for everybody else, thanks for hanging out.

02:26:58.920 We'll see you all next time.

02:27:00.080 Thank you.

02:27:13.620 I hate hockey.

02:27:15.540 Seriously.

02:27:16.240 I can't stand it.

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02:27:23.360 We've been over in Ontario for well over a year now.

02:27:26.700 And have loved every second of it, except one thing.

02:27:30.680 Let me tell you, us Brits simply can't get our heads around hockey.

02:27:34.380 It is so confusing to us and it is impossible to outsmart Canadians on the ice.

02:27:40.180 That's why it fits Stairs, the world's oldest bookmaker.

02:27:42.600 You can play with us on anything, anything you want.

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02:27:48.180 Plus, with our world-class casino and over 150 years of experience, you're in great hands.

02:27:55.460 So you've got to stop pucking around and go to fitzstairs.ca.

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02:28:06.620 Please play responsibly.

02:28:07.780 To be continued.

02:28:09.800 To be continued.

The Culture War - Tim Pool - April 07, 2023

The Culture War #7 - Vivek Ramaswamy GOP 2024 Candidate, Competing With Trump, Ending Wokeness

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