The DEMISE of South Africa & PERSECUTION of White People w⧸ Lara Logan & Ernst Roets
Episode Stats
Length
2 hours and 1 minute
Words per minute
183.28479
Harmful content
Misogyny
20
sentences flagged
Toxicity
169
sentences flagged
Hate speech
59
sentences flagged
Summary
In South Africa, there are more than 7,000 reported farm killings a year. It s a problem that has been going on for years, and it s only getting worse. In this episode, we talk to a journalist, an author, and a researcher who have spent much of their adult life in South Africa about what they know, and what they don t know, about the scale of the problem.
Transcript
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A couple nights ago, we were talking about an app on Timcast IRL. It's called like Protector or
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something, and it was an Uber for private security. I actually don't mind the idea. I guess they're
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targeting the wealthy areas of Los Angeles, namely like, I don't know, Malibu and Brentwood and stuff
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like this. But wealthy people are becoming increasingly concerned about the escalating
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crime in this country. And I think it was either, maybe Mary was making the joke that soon we're
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going to have to have these big private security fences and apps for security. And I was like,
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you mean like in South Africa? To which Serge nods and laughs because that's where he's from.
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And so this subject, it's well known that in South Africa, there's serious crime. There's private
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security as an attempted solution to this. That people have gates and security inside of their own
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homes because even after your house gets broken into, you've got to go flee somewhere else or
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sleep in a secure cage. Now, why is all this happening? What's going on in South Africa?
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And are the stories and rumors we hear true? That's the conversation we're going to be having.
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We have a couple of guests, but why don't we start with, good sir, you can go first. Who are you and
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what do you do? Thank you, Tim. It's great to be on the show. Thank you for having me a second time,
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and it's great to be here in studio. I'm Ernst Terutz, or Ernst, you could say. I live in South
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Africa. I live in Pretoria, and I am an author. I'm an author. I wrote the book, Kill the Boer,
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which is about the farm killings in South Africa. I also recently started a think tank and an advocacy
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group called Lex Libertas. It's a new initiative, and it's aimed at it publishes research about
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developments in South Africa, but also it advocates for an alternative political dispensation in South
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Africa. And our argument is that the only way to really deal with the crisis in South Africa at
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the moment is to work towards decentralizing the political system so that the central government
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has less power. And there's much more to be said about that. That's an intro. We're also joined by
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the intrepid Laura Logan. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Would you like to introduce yourself and what
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you do? I'm a journalist, and actually I am a South African, but I'm an American citizen now, and started as a
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journalist in South Africa 462 years ago. Okay. Sort of. I was 17 years old, 1988, before the internet, before
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cell phones, before email. Can any of you remember a time like that? No, you cannot. Okay. Grew up in South
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Africa, but worked as a journalist from age 17. I worked at ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN. I worked
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all over. I worked in print and radio more than 35 years as a journalist. Really good at getting
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canceled. I can get everybody to hate me. I'm an equal opportunity offender, and I don't give a
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shit. Well, right on. Thanks for hanging out. We got producer Tate, who actually has traveled around
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Africa and has been to South Africa as well. It's true. Yeah, I was there a few months ago,
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backpacked from Kenya to South Africa, spent a considerable amount of time in South Africa.
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Like your jersey. Yeah, I picked it up there. It was a good place to find one. Of course, Laura Logan's
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a legend, Ernst Root's legend. I've followed him for a long time, so privileged to be here.
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Well, the first question, the obvious one is, as it pertains to the farm killings,
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there's been a debate in the United States. Activist groups have called it a white genocide.
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The media has said it's a lie. Farmers are not being targeted. It's just normal killings and
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normal murders. I suppose the question is for all of y'all who've actually been there,
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and for you, who actually lives there now and deals with this on a daily basis,
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is there any truth to these rumors and what is actually going on?
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So, well, there is certainly truth to that. The term genocide has become somewhat of a
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controversial term because it's a technical term and it has a very particular definition.
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But we certainly do have a very serious problem in South Africa when it comes to genocidal rhetoric.
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Politicians talking about genocide, chanting things like kill the boer, kill the farmer.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm an Afrikaner or a boer, as you can say, yes. I grew up in the north of South Africa on a farm.
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I lived there for some time on a farm. I grew up in a community where there were many farm attacks and farm murders
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to the effect that people I know who are close to me, including my brother, have been attacked on farms
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and people I knew have been murdered on farms and some of them have been tortured.
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Yes, although they are. It's not as easy as it is in America, but they are working very hard to take away
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your gun rights to get access to firearms. So we have guns and it's very common in South Africa
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to see people walk with, you know, armed pistols by their side and so forth.
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So I got a question for everybody, I guess. Why is the crime so high? When did this, was it always this way?
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Was South Africa just from its inception, just this high crime place where people are being raped,
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Well, that probably deserves a long answer, but it's not supposed to be like that.
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So when the new South Africa started, as it was called in the 90s, the former president, F.W.
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the clerk, was asked at a press conference, how will you know if this new South Africa is a good idea or not?
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And he notoriously responded by saying the crime statistics will show if it was a good idea or not.
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And if there's a decrease in violent crime, then we did the right thing.
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And there was a decrease and now it's picking up again.
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So the crime in the moment, there's about 27,000 murders in South Africa per year.
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And the murder rate in terms of the ratio is 45 people per 100,000 per year.
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Now, just for perspective, the global average is six per 100,000.
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And in many European countries, it's one per 100,000.
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So it's very high, and I think there are many reasons why there are such high crime levels.
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One is obviously poverty, but it's not sufficient to just say people commit murder and torture because they are poor.
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Another part of the dimension that isn't that often said, but I would say equally important,
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is that those in power in South Africa have actively encouraged a culture of violence throughout the years.
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Their political strategy was making the country ungovernable, encouraging violent riots, and so forth.
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And I think the country is still suffering from that.
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Was there like an inflection point where murder just skyrocketed and went really high?
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Or was it like a gradual increase over the years that it got worse and worse?
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It skyrocketed in the 80s and 90s as a result of political violence with the political transition in South Africa
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And then it went down, I guess, in the late 90s and then maybe the early 2000s.
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So there's no sign that it's going to decrease.
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but the part of the equation that it's not talking about enough
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South Africa is often called the rape capital of the world
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or the murder and rape capital of the world.
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And there's some religious connotations to that, you know,
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And then adding the dimension of gang-related violence
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It's just a very violent country and it's very sad.
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Yeah, I was kind of crazy because you're going through places
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like very desolate places where there's a lot of struggle,
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there's a lot of poverty, a lot of desperation.
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And I would tell people my plans, those people, the locals there,
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I'd be like, well, yeah, and I'm going to finish off in South Africa,
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And they would recoil in horror when I would tell them this.
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And they're like, oh, you're going to South Africa?
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So it's like even in Africa, even elsewhere in the continent,
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And so it was something I was aware of when I was traveling.
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but even then I do think there was a bit of luck involved
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and not getting myself in a too crazy of a situation.
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I did like would pay random people as like bodyguards
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when I'd want to go into like the CBD in Johannesburg and stuff.
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But the CBD in Johannesburg is exceptionally dangerous.
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Well, I don't know if you can like if it's legal or not,
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I was like, hey, is anybody there that you know?
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I was like, do you know anybody that's like a gang,
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and he just took me around the Johannesburg CBD
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for like a few hours and no one would touch me.
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and it says that murder is at 45 per 100,000 people.
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And I then asked, was crime as bad during apartheid?
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But the reasons are complex and often misunderstood, it says.
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It says, rape in South Africa is often perceived
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as a post-apartheid epidemic, but the truth is far more complex.
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While formal reporting increased sharply after 94,
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sexual violence has deep roots that stretch back
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the argument that it's making about violent crime
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is it's saying South Africa just didn't report
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the violent crime largely in the black community.
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So it seems like rape was substantially less
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However, I then, of course, ask the very obvious question.
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After the end of apartheid, interracial violent crime,
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against white people from the black community.
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It then goes on to add for seemingly no reason,
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It says, but consider whites are not being genocide.
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I just asked if interracial violent crime has increased.
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you're going to see interracial violent crime.
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It's just that there's a couple of things though.
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provided the drivers acting in self-defense as depicted in this mock-up
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about 25 vehicles so far have the blaster but no one's yet tested the system for real
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yeah yeah exactly farms in South Africa that have moats or trenches
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so that people it has to be long enough so that you can't jump over and people can still
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so you laugh but my husband built trenches on our place in Texas and uh
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yeah and you can put cactus in there you can put whatever just they're not that wide
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so then when you'd fall on it you'd get like a bunch of diseases
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well it was funny because when I was in South Africa I would like talk to kids
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and I would like be like yeah you can just walk up and knock on people's doors in America
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I mean it's not that long ago growing up there that you could do that kind of
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it's like everyone is living in alligator alcatraz in South Africa
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there's some footage also of of um um like security footage because that's many of these farms you would find that
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is you know security cameras recording all the time
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before I moved to where I live now I I had that I had cameras all around my house
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and then when I was especially at night I would put it up on the screen
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so you could every time you could see what's happening all around the house and it's just
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well and now imagine if you live in a township right in a shack
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and you're living on top of everybody and there's no cameras and there's no security
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that's where the rapes is so and and the murders
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the rapes and murders and there's an unconscionable amount of violence
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and what the South African government does very well
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so I mean and just because the vast majority of people who are attacked and raped and murdered on
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a daily basis there's more black people than white that's going to happen statistically but
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it doesn't mean that you don't have a specific targeted extermination campaign against a group
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of people you know those two things can both be true but they use one as if at this one just
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because this is true this means this is not true and that is not true and the other thing
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is to look at the attacks on the farms in the context of the the laws the interpretation and
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the implementation of the laws right and also the prevailing ideology because what a lot of South
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Africans will tell you is that kill the farmer kill the poor is historic it's reminiscent of the
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revolution it isn't literal it's a metaphor it's a metaphor it's not meant literally and um and that
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they don't mean it and that even though that they've passed this law that says they can take all
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this land they're not doing it some people will say they haven't taken any of the land without
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compensation I know that's that's not true but it's certainly not it's not widespread they haven't
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gone in and done a massive campaign because they've they function on deception and dishonesty right they
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they tell you well we have to change the law but we're never going to use it it's just like well
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we've created this technology that can spy on you at any time but we're not really going to spy on you
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I mean if you believe that you just you're not very smart fair enough yeah yeah I mean I guess
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for two South Africans the question would be being well and you you know you obviously have a lot of
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experience in the states too is like what is the advice slash warning for Americans I think
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the warning is is partly what what we discussed already is just where these policies go uh what what
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you end up with if you start implementing these policies another is is this uh I I spoke at an
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event at the conservative partnership institute last night and they also asked me this and
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one warning is or lesson I think from South Africa is don't feed the crocodile it's that old I think
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Winston Churchill has said and someone an appeaser is someone who keeps feeding a crocodile hoping that it
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would eat him last but what just keeps happening is that the crocodile doesn't get full it just keeps
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getting bigger and bigger and and that's what happens when you when you give in to these demands
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especially from the left saying well you should do this and you should do that and especially then
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the sort of the the the liberal response is often yes but look how much power we have and and so let's
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just let's just give away these things even though there's no legitimate argument as to why you
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should do that it's just concede or cede ground and then then sort of we will stabilize and everyone
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will be happy but what is very clear in South Africa is um once you become a minority it's it's
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it's worse it's more difficult because then the argument is that you are a minority with you're a
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minority with disproportionate wealth yeah um and that makes it even worse and that makes the argument
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even more aggressive and so I think I think I think there are some important lessons and another
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important lesson from South Africa and it links a bit to this is just that old thing about
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demographics is destiny oh yeah um so so we that's why I mentioned that we can't vote ourselves out of
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the problem in South Africa because the country is very big very poor more than 40 percent unemployment
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with that's the narrow definition of unemployment and do you can you blame those people if they vote
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for socialism so one one party comes up and says I'll give you you know I'll give you um we will have a
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system where you you can get a job and you have to work and you can flourish and the other one says
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vote for me and I'll give you money yeah and and then so in South Africa at the moment about 40 just
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over 40 percent of the country or roughly 40 percent are on social grants wow what yeah yeah like 20 more
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than 28 million people in South Africa but then if you add if you add people who work for the government
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it's almost 60 percent of people in South Africa get money from the government so and then then
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compare that to how many people in South Africa actually work how many are employed then the
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amount of people in South Africa that vote for money is like two or three times as much as the amount of
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people that work for money and that's why disenfranchisement is the only path say again
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disenfranchisement is the only path yeah in the United States I think I think uh your right to vote should be
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tied to uh civic duty yeah uh the easiest and simple one I think is that in the U.S. in order to
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vote you have to sign up for selective service and you get a voter ID card and that would eliminate a
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lot of degenerate voting practices immediately and there's nothing really tied to it I mean don't you're
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not going to get drafted but you have to at least pledge to do it then there's the more serious of
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you have to actually serve in some capacity and that doesn't mean combat people always try to
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insinuate it means combat because they're trying to discredit you but then uh you'd have people who have
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full rights and everything we just don't vote on how the system is run unless you agree to contribute
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to that system unless you're a part of it yeah with with your actions and that could mean service
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could be cleaning the highway it could mean volunteer work when a soup kitchen who knows
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but if you're not going to actively take a role in bettering the community in serving then don't vote
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yeah there's got to be some tied to it otherwise people will just vote to take your stuff
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yeah I mean our system wasn't like it's very explicit was not set up for just every single person
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can vote no matter what no questions asked it's clearly not functioning with this new rule people
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are just voting for money they're voting for yeah people are going to vote for their interests
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and for a lot of people their interest is getting food in their mouth and that's really the end of
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it yeah that's that's something the ANC said in the 90s you know when the Berlin Wall fell and
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everyone said okay the future communism has been defeated they Joe Slovo from the communist party
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in South Africa said well actually the future of communism lies through democracy
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and and he said that in and he then said well real communism has never been tried and he's but
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he said the argument his argument was that Stalinism is not real communism because it's too it's it's too
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it gives too much power to the party or it's too aggressive and it's too what they what they mean
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when they say that is that you show people your true intent because when Obama said defund the police
01:58:36.040
and Democrats lost support he said we shouldn't have said defund the police he didn't say we
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shouldn't defund the police he said we shouldn't have said it yes we shouldn't have been honest
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about what it was we were going to do because Marxism is built on deception when Hugo Chavez ran
01:58:50.500
for power in in Venezuela he said we were going to give wealth the wealth of the country to all of
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Venezuelans he didn't say most of you are going to be starving in a few years time and my daughter is
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going to be the richest woman in Venezuela exactly yeah yeah yeah well uh it's been fun I do appreciate
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you guys coming in and sharing your insights and all of this uh do you have any final thoughts or
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anything you want to shout out before we wrap up uh well thank you for having me thank you for for
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the discussion if if I may I I work for an an um a think tank slash advocacy group it's an NGO in
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South Africa that works does research on what's happening in South Africa um and our main argument as I
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mentioned in the beginning is that we believe that the reform South Africa needs is systemic reform it
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needs a different political dispensation and so if there are people watching who are interested in
01:59:40.940
that either from a journalistic perspective or a research perspective or just becoming involved or
01:59:46.140
supporting I would encourage them to go and visit our website it's Lex Libertas it's the the Latin for
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law and freedom and what we mean by that name is we want a legal system that enables more freedom in
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South Africa and not less so it's Lex Libertas dot org dot zeta right on any final thoughts something
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to shout out um I would just say that uh this is a global assault and the things if South Africa
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seems to you to be far away and halfway across the world and why should you care I would say you should
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care because all of the things that are happening there are the same battles that are being fought
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here in the United States and um if people want to find me they can watch my show going rogue
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with Laura Logan my podcast which is on every platform right on cool yeah you can find me on
02:00:31.800
x at real tape brown and on instagram at real tape brown some Africa stories coming I've been
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procrastinating a little bit but these two are so awesome it's just so cool to be here with you too
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so thank you right on for everybody else we're back tonight at 8 p.m for Timcast IRL and then tomorrow
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the culture war live in Washington DC it's gonna be fun you can show up there may be open seats I'm not
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entirely sure because things got all crazy but we do recommend everybody come come to the event
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we'll even let you come up on stage and debate us and join the show thanks for hanging out