The Culture War - Tim Pool - THE END OF THE WEST, Will We Survive Without Christianity？ w⧸ Michael Jones & Justin Holmes

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00:01:28.080 This is a conversation we've had on our shows here at TimCast quite a bit.

00:01:32.200 We had Milo Yiannopoulos on the show a few months ago.

00:01:35.260 Though he's been on since then, but a few months ago he was talking about

00:01:37.220 this nation was intended for a Christian moral people.

00:01:41.820 That the Founding Fathers, or that some of them had written,

00:01:44.700 that the Constitution would only work for those who are a moral and virtuous people.

00:01:48.960 Milo's opinion was that this was, of course, referring to Christianity.

00:01:51.700 Now, while many of the Founding Fathers were, of course, Christian,

00:01:53.600 and many of, obviously, this country was deeply Christian for a very, very long time,

00:01:57.380 many of the Founding Fathers were considered to be deist,

00:01:59.700 meaning they didn't really follow doctrine or anything like that.

00:02:01.780 But this leads us to the big question,

00:02:03.660 and we decided to have a much larger conversation about the whole issue.

00:02:06.980 The end of the West, can we survive without Christianity?

00:02:11.340 Over the past several decades, Christianity has been waning in this country.

00:02:14.600 There is some bubbling up rumors and discussion about the resurgence of Christianity.

00:02:18.780 People like Russell Brand getting baptized and finding Jesus Christ

00:02:21.780 seem to be influencing a lot of people towards religion.

00:02:25.240 And even people I know who used to be staunch atheists,

00:02:28.060 I would not call religious by the sense of the imagination,

00:02:30.820 but they're much more open to the idea of these moral traditions.

00:02:34.240 So I think this conversation will be particularly interesting.

00:02:36.060 We've got a handful of interesting fellas.

00:02:37.920 We'll start with you, good sir. Would you like to introduce yourself?

00:02:39.980 Sure. My name is Michael Jones. I run Inspiring Philosophy.

00:02:42.820 I do a lot of Christian apologetics, arguing for a Christian worldview,

00:02:46.280 arguing it's beneficial in multiple ways.

00:02:48.580 I've done a lot of videos on that topic lately,

00:02:50.660 and I actually just debated Lawrence Krauss on the topic two weeks ago.

00:02:54.320 Right on. That should be fun. We have another fine gentleman here, sir.

00:02:56.760 My name is Justin. I run a channel called Deconstruction Zone on TikTok and YouTube,

00:03:00.820 and I primarily debate religion.

00:03:02.300 I cross over into atheism quite a bit, although I'm not a hard atheist.

00:03:07.940 I'm agnostic to the position that some kind of a crater could exist.

00:03:11.840 Whether or not there's evidence for that crater I think is very much unsure.

00:03:15.900 But when it comes to formalized, organized religions,

00:03:19.080 I'm definitely a hard atheist on all the formalized religions.

00:03:22.740 To keep everyone on their toes, no slouching, Ian's here.

00:03:26.020 Let's dance. Get up on them toes, dog.

00:03:28.420 So I'm kind of where you are, Justin, or I was for a long time agnostic,

00:03:33.200 just plainly like, show me the evidence, and then I'll start to believe it.

00:03:35.820 Then I saw the cosmic microwave background radiation.

00:03:38.320 Have you ever seen that stuff?

00:03:39.400 Through radio telescopes, they map the universal radiation left over after the Big Bang.

00:03:43.760 It looks like a neural net, and I'm like, all right, maybe this is like God's mind.

00:03:47.340 So I'm much more open to the idea now, but let's go to it.

00:03:50.860 That's what I'm talking about right there. See, that's what we need.

00:03:52.480 Otherwise, we'd be sitting here smoking corncob pipes, talking about, you know, theology and such.

00:03:57.800 You need Ian to talk about cosmic background radiation.

00:04:00.160 Here we go. Get your Cass Brew coffee while you're at it.

00:04:02.840 Yes, absolutely. CassBrew.com.

00:04:04.760 Don't forget to also join Rumble Premium using promo code TIM10.

00:04:09.200 The Green Room Show, man, you got to check it out.

00:04:11.360 It's getting rave reviews, and I'm very, very impressed and grateful.

00:04:16.520 The Green Room Podcast is getting about 40,000 views per episode.

00:04:21.160 I mean, that's pretty nuts. That's amazing.

00:04:24.080 If you want to see behind-the-scenes, set-up for the show, conversations, uncensored,

00:04:28.240 sometimes it's pretty wild, sometimes pretty silly.

00:04:30.360 You can go to rumble.com slash TimCastIRL, sign up for Premium, and watch it there.

00:04:35.280 But let's—oh, don't forget Cass Brew.

00:04:37.440 But instead of starting with cosmic radiation or whatever it is Ian was talking about,

00:04:41.760 instead of talking about, I mean, even God and God's existence,

00:04:45.200 let's start with the moral traditions of Christianity, the foundation of this country.

00:04:50.020 The question is, as this country becomes less and less Christian,

00:04:54.400 and that seems to be the trend, though some say it may be reversing,

00:04:57.180 will we survive as a country without this?

00:05:00.740 Well, I mean, first we need to find what we mean by Western civilization,

00:05:04.160 and generally it's a civilization, not like Islamic civilization or Far Eastern civilization.

00:05:09.080 It's a civilization that is generally defined by adherence to ideas like democratic values,

00:05:15.240 human rights, strong belief in modern science, and promoting of education.

00:05:22.320 And if you read historians on this, like, for example,

00:05:24.960 there's a great book called Christianity and Human Rights and Introduction.

00:05:28.820 Every chapter has its own author.

00:05:30.400 They've argued that a lot of these values come out of the Christian tradition.

00:05:34.500 You're getting opinions of multiple scholars.

00:05:36.580 You can also check out Samuel Moyne's book, Christian Human Rights,

00:05:39.320 Tom Holland's book.

00:05:40.120 He's an atheist dominion.

00:05:41.640 That's his book.

00:05:42.560 I've argued that a lot of these ideas about Western civilization that we have

00:05:45.760 come out of the Christian tradition for a reason.

00:05:47.860 So can the West survive without Christianity?

00:05:50.160 I mean, like, the West is built on Christian foundations.

00:05:52.700 It'd be very hard to move beyond that and it not be the West at that point.

00:05:57.440 So the question would be, would it even be the West if we moved away from Christian foundations and ideas?

00:06:01.800 I'm not a Christian. I guess I'd be called a lapsed Catholic.

00:06:04.740 But I do largely agree. I'm curious. I think you probably disagree.

00:06:08.720 Well, I think my question is not what do we mean by the West, but what do we mean by Christianity?

00:06:13.060 Are we talking about the type that produces doomsday cults, the type that abuses children in mass,

00:06:18.460 you know, the types that tried to change the Indian's culture by killing the Indian but saving the man?

00:06:24.380 Are we talking about the type that, like, want to relegate women to the kitchen?

00:06:28.280 Like, there's no, like, homogenous view of Christianity, and for every good thing that

00:06:33.760 you can pull from Christianity, I can probably pull five horrific things from Christianity

00:06:38.220 and the data points, and I can root it back to the Bible.

00:06:41.420 I would probably say when you look at the Constitution and the Founding Fathers' ideals

00:06:48.060 largely built upon, not necessarily directly overlapping with, but built from and overlapping

00:06:56.780 with Christian moral traditions. So obviously, we can look at any person anywhere at any time

00:07:01.780 and find bad things about them. I can sit here and tell you why the police are evil,

00:07:05.020 and I can show you every single evil thing the police and the feds have done.

00:07:08.020 Ruby Ridge. Does that mean we should have no police? No.

00:07:11.100 Can we survive without law enforcement? I honestly don't think we can.

00:07:14.320 So the issue then becomes the Christian moral tradition, and the example I like to give is

00:07:19.220 the easiest, the easiest is the right-to-a-speed trial, innocent until proven guilty, which is

00:07:25.220 if you actually trace back the history of the Constitution and where the Founding Father got

00:07:28.840 their ideas, that's the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. So Blackstone's formulation was the

00:07:33.000 inspiration for the right-to-a-speed trial, which was by Benjamin Franklin, built upon

00:07:36.400 Blackstone's formulation, which is, Blackstone said it is better that 10 guilty persons

00:07:40.560 escaped than one innocent person suffer. Benjamin Franklin said it is better that 100 guilty

00:07:44.420 persons escaped than one innocent person suffer. The Founding Fathers took it from a Christian

00:07:48.000 perspective and brought it to the logical position of, how can we actually prove that the story

00:07:54.960 of Sodom and Gomorrah and Blackstone's formulation are the right thing? And of course, again, for

00:07:59.120 those that don't know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, if there is but one righteous person,

00:08:02.540 I will not destroy this town. Of course, then they got the righteous person out and then

00:08:05.400 nuked that place. So the logic applied by the Founding Fathers was,

00:08:10.560 if you have a society where the citizen believes, even if they are innocent, they will be punished,

00:08:16.820 there is no incentive for the citizenry to be virtuous. In fact, the inverse, they will lie,

00:08:22.380 cheat, and steal to avoid detection, because it doesn't matter if you're good or not,

00:08:25.280 and they'll have to lie to protect themselves. But if society tells the citizenry,

00:08:29.480 even if you are guilty, we will try in every way imaginable to give you the appropriate chance

00:08:34.640 to defend yourself. And if you are innocent, we would rather free 10 guilty people than see you

00:08:38.920 suffer. The incentive, of course, then, is to be virtuous, because we're here to protect you.

00:08:42.700 So that is just one element. But if you actually go through the Constitution as a whole,

00:08:48.700 largely influenced by a Christian moral tradition. So that's my view.

00:08:52.500 Yeah, Christianity is bent and altered so many times, kind of to your point. It's changed.

00:08:58.320 Like, obviously, you've had Reformations, you have the Methodist Reformation. You had at one point

00:09:02.260 with the Spanish Inquisition, where they would go into—I don't know if they would kick people's

00:09:06.440 doors in, but they would execute people for not worshiping their cult. And I think there are

00:09:12.760 excellent methodologies and messages from that book, the Christian Bible, except—but there's a lot of

00:09:21.820 horrible cult worship, adherence, expectation, groupthink that's very, very dangerous just in

00:09:31.220 general across all religion and, what do you want to call it, mass formation of any kind. So

00:09:36.720 that's kind of where I'm at. I'm very much a cherry picker in that sense, I guess.

00:09:40.460 Let me ask real quick. He mentioned the Spanish Inquisition. I don't know if you are familiar with

00:09:44.520 it.

00:09:45.040 Oh, yeah. So there's a lot of propaganda about the Spanish Inquisition. A lot of it actually comes

00:09:49.280 from a lot of Protestants later on. But if you read a book by an atheist named Nathan Johnstone

00:09:53.740 called The New Atheism, and he makes the point, like, we just can't say Christianity, therefore

00:09:58.180 Inquisition, because it comes about in the Middle Ages after a recent resurgence of rationalism

00:10:03.580 and the need to place justice in the hands of humans more than anything. And then, of course,

00:10:08.960 the propaganda aspect comes in. A Spanish Inquisitor would consider themselves a failure

00:10:13.800 if they actually had to execute someone. They didn't want to do that. The goal was to actually

00:10:19.000 convert someone. And oftentimes, they were far more rational than a lot of the secular

00:10:24.200 governments of the time, like the kings and the nobility. Like Nathan Johnstone talks about

00:10:28.520 in his book, like, the Inquisitors were reminding people, like, we're not just going to blame

00:10:32.280 crop failures on witchcraft. There's probably a naturalistic explanation, far more likely.

00:10:37.300 So it's been blown way out of proportion, he points out. It's often used to sort of attack

00:10:42.180 Christianity. And we also have to remember, there are multiple variables going into this

00:10:47.480 idea. It wasn't just Christianity, therefore Inquisition. You know, we have to remember

00:10:53.460 variables throughout the Middle Ages—political, secular, economic—various aspects are going

00:10:59.840 in people's thinking, and it's going to affect the outcomes.

00:11:02.760 Sure. And as someone who's actually studied the history and brought some of it with me,

00:11:06.860 that's all wrong. So here's a book called The Bloody Theater. It's been renamed

00:11:12.020 The Martyr's Mirror. It's a volume that's kept just by the Anabaptists, and there

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00:12:40.560 There are thousands upon thousands of firsthand accounts of people that were murdered by Protestants,

00:12:45.860 murdered by Catholics, murdered by Zwinglius, murdered in Geneva, for simply baptizing people

00:12:52.760 as adults. Whole families tied up, thrown into the river and drowned. Children drowned

00:12:57.960 because their parents got baptized as adults. That's it. There are thousands of firsthand accounts.

00:13:03.740 Yes. So, just to clarify, a person got baptized and they killed their children or they killed

00:13:09.480 them or what?

00:13:09.840 Whole family.

00:13:10.880 Who killed them?

00:13:12.200 Typically, the church leaders. So, what you found was there was a plague, they called it

00:13:17.580 in Europe, of Anabaptism. It also went by the Walden's Plague and the idea that you needed

00:13:23.520 to stamp out heresy started with Constantine. In this book, I have decrees, edicts given all

00:13:29.720 the way from the time of Constantine until the 15th century, saying we need to stamp out these

00:13:36.140 heretics. And then they did it. They went out and they did it. And there's good support in the Bible

00:13:39.980 for it. God himself stamps out innocent alongside the guilty all the time. He says so. He brags

00:13:45.560 about it. Exodus 34-7 says he visits the iniquity of the parents upon the children and the children's

00:13:51.140 children into the third and the fourth generation. In 2 Samuel chapter 24, God kills 70,000 Israelites

00:13:58.380 for the sin of David. In 2 Samuel chapter 12, God has 10 of David's wives raped for David's sin.

00:14:05.640 I have a question. Do you think American constitutional republicanism is a good thing?

00:14:12.540 I think the American idea is a good thing. Whether or not we can root that in the Bible,

00:14:18.300 I think, is questionable.

00:14:19.080 No, I'm not asking that. I think, do you think this country will survive if the Constitution

00:14:23.700 were to be abolished or destroyed? I guess it means, what do you mean by survive?

00:14:30.120 Will there be a cohesive structure? Will there be stable family growth, safety, security,

00:14:37.380 prosperity, in the sense that we typically know it in the United States, if our form of government,

00:14:42.260 which is constitutional republicanism, were to shatter overnight? Let's say we root out the rules

00:14:48.560 and regulations, the teachings of the founding fathers and just said, gone. What would this

00:14:55.560 country become?

00:14:57.200 Well, it's hard to know because you've created a vacuum, right? So, for example, when we found

00:15:03.140 vacuums in the Near East, what filled it? The caliphate. Violent extremist groups. If we found

00:15:10.280 a political vacuum here in the States, it's hard to know what would actually fill it. But I think

00:15:13.880 Americans, by and large, appreciate democracy. I would only assume that if our current form of

00:15:20.000 government collapsed, it would reform as another democracy.

00:15:24.860 Do you think, would you consider that we should intentionally get rid of our current structure

00:15:31.340 of government? Or do you think it's a good thing? I have no problem with our structure of government.

00:15:34.420 How many children have been slaughtered and murdered in the name of our constitutional republic?

00:15:38.660 Oh, I don't know. But I know there are millions of children that have been brutally raped by

00:15:43.820 the church.

00:15:44.720 Certainly. And I don't disagree with that. I'm asking you how many people have, how many children

00:15:48.200 have been murdered in the name of American constitutional republicanism? It's quite a bit.

00:15:52.000 It's a hefty number. I mean, it's probably in the millions. And so my issue there is looking at the

00:15:56.980 worst vices and failures.

00:15:58.720 Are you talking about American children?

00:16:00.060 I'm talking about children all around the world.

00:16:02.040 Oh, through wars you mean?

00:16:03.920 I don't think a drone strike in Yemen that kills an American citizen who's 16 years old by Barack Obama

00:16:10.480 was a war. We didn't declare war on that place. We had no business bombing that. But this was done

00:16:15.300 in the name of American, the American government, the system that we believe is this moral and

00:16:20.500 virtuous system.

00:16:21.580 And George Bush gave biblical justification for it. George Bush thought Ezekiel 28 was playing

00:16:26.620 out and he needed to invade the Middle East.

00:16:28.020 Barack Obama is the guy who blew up a bunch of kids.

00:16:30.540 I agree.

00:16:30.780 And my point is, I don't look at the United States, the Constitution, the Founding Fathers

00:16:35.140 and say, oh, a bunch of evil people over a long period of time murdered millions of children.

00:16:39.220 I say, wow, there's evil people we need to stop.

00:16:41.680 And so my point here is, I bring this up, because we're asking a question about moral

00:16:46.060 traditions and how they should be enacted, not, did you know that in 1428 a bunch of evil

00:16:50.740 people tortured people? It's like, certainly they did. And every culture everywhere did it.

00:16:54.640 I mean, let's go to Japan and talk about how they raped and enslaved the Koreans.

00:16:57.660 Does that mean that the honor of the samurai or whatever, or the Bushido, should be completely

00:17:04.280 thrown out? Or is it a good structure for people to abide by? The question and the challenge

00:17:08.720 we face is, every tradition, every structure, every government, every moral framework commits

00:17:13.860 atrocities, every single one of them. So we're talking about comparing the core values of a moral

00:17:19.140 tradition to another one, or a lack thereof.

00:17:21.680 What are the core values of Christianity? Because my reading of the Bible is that the core value

00:17:26.120 of Christianity is that men are more equal than women. Men are higher status. Slavery's

00:17:32.840 okay. Genocide's okay.

00:17:34.880 So on that note, I mean, you said that's your reading. It's not important about what your

00:17:39.640 reading is. What's important is the effects that Christianity has actually created.

00:17:43.880 No, it's not.

00:17:44.400 And what it's actually brought about. Absolutely.

00:17:45.640 It's about what the Bible says. Christianity is based on the book.

00:17:48.360 And we're talking about—

00:17:49.000 The book says slavery is okay. You can buy and sell slaves at your will.

00:17:53.240 Hold on. Let me continue. It's about the actual effects. Most people throughout history are

00:17:57.180 not going to agree with your interpretation. There's a reason the abolitionists came out

00:18:00.840 through the Christian movement.

00:18:02.000 It did not.

00:18:02.440 It definitely did.

00:18:03.260 It was absolutely not. The Christians were burning crosses on people's yards even after

00:18:09.060 abolition. The Christians were quoting the Bible to endorse slavery.

00:18:13.480 Are you going to let me finish now? Go ahead.

00:18:15.240 So, yes, people justified slavery in every culture. Something weird started happening in

00:18:21.720 Europe and then through the American tradition is that people started saying, no, slavery should

00:18:24.960 be abolished. And there are reasons, if you read John Coffey, if you read Robert Fogel, who

00:18:29.940 is not a Christian, Ben Wright, the abolitionists were very much arguing from the Christian tradition

00:18:35.980 that it should be abolished. Did Christians try to justify slavery? Absolutely. Everyone everywhere

00:18:42.520 tried to justify slavery. But surprisingly, as historians will note on this issue, over

00:18:47.060 time, through the Christian tradition, they started saying, hey, there are certain things

00:18:51.860 in the Bible which demand that we end slavery. So now, and this is, again, what most historians

00:18:56.400 will say, out of the Christian tradition, we see a strong abolitionist movement. These early

00:19:01.020 abolitionists were citing biblical verses, biblical values, for their reason to end slavery.

00:19:05.520 And so were the enslavers. And John Brown, who was deeply emoted by Christianity, walked up to

00:19:12.200 slavers and blasted them in the face without question, murdering tons of people. And the taking of

00:19:18.620 Harper's Ferry, the most famous moment, people don't realize John Brown and his sons and his gang

00:19:23.060 were going through Kansas and straight up murdering people without question because they said,

00:19:27.320 you are an affront to God. So we can talk about the abolitionists. Like, it's remarkable to me,

00:19:32.960 you go to the casino down the street, and they've got $25 chips with John Brown,

00:19:37.100 hailed as a hero, despite the fact that he was hanged for treason. And I'm like, look, man,

00:19:41.140 I appreciate the abolitionist stuff, but I don't know that I'd ever get behind a guy who would walk

00:19:44.940 up to a random person and blow his face off. Like, that's not the kind of world, but that was

00:19:49.700 Christianity, right? Obviously, this country was like 99% Christian at the time. I mean, that meant

00:19:55.720 that abolitionists and the... Obviously. They were all Christians. Everyone's going to use the text.

00:20:01.140 Yeah, no, you don't get credit for using the Bible to abolish it. In fact, Jefferson Davis,

00:20:06.220 the president of the Confederacy, said,

00:20:08.300 who gave them the right to decide that it's a sin? By what standard do they measure it? Not the

00:20:12.320 Constitution. The Constitution recognizes the property in many forms, imposes obligations in

00:20:17.280 its connection that recognize...in that recognition. Not the Bible. It justifies it. And then he says

00:20:23.420 later, it is not the cause of Christianity. It cannot be. For servitude is the only agency through which

00:20:29.020 Christianity has reached the degraded race, the only means by which they have been civilized

00:20:34.100 and elevated. And church fathers all throughout history have said the same thing. Basil said it.

00:20:39.180 Ambrose said it. There were dozens of church fathers and popes who all said that slavery was the means

00:20:44.160 by which we're going to bring these heathen races to Christianity because Leviticus 25 says so.

00:20:50.020 But it's a moot point. Christians also abolish slavery. Nobody gets credit for it. So therefore,

00:20:56.100 it's not of Christianity. It's moot. We can sit here and be like, did you know that Christians

00:21:00.680 abolish slavery? Sure. They also did it too. Okay. It's zero. What's the next point?

00:21:04.400 But the justification for it is in the Bible. That's what I'm saying.

00:21:08.200 And every country, every nation, every peoples in the world had slavery. To this day, the North

00:21:12.840 African slave trade has been reignited due to the operations of American constitutional

00:21:17.500 republicanism. So if we're going to talk about who's at fault for slavery right now,

00:21:20.800 it's the American democratic system. Should we abolish it? I don't think so. But it is the absolute

00:21:25.340 fault of Western NATO countries who are not abiding by some religious doctrine, who blew

00:21:30.360 the crap out of Libya, reigniting North Atlantic, I'm sorry, the North African slave trade. I said

00:21:34.860 Atlantic, North African slave trade. So history shows us everybody did slavery. Christians did too.

00:21:41.100 Christians justified slavery at the time. Muslims did too. Christians abolished slavery. And then

00:21:46.400 Western constitutional republicanism reignited slavery. And so I'm not going to sit here and argue

00:21:51.100 that the constitution in America is bad. I think it's a great country with evil people wielding us

00:21:55.100 like a tool to evil ends.

00:21:56.580 And again, we go back to my point. Everyone justified slavery from their traditions in

00:22:00.380 the ancient world. Why do we now think slavery is wrong today? Go back and read what the abolitionists

00:22:04.660 were doing. There was something in Christianity that started. Did most people early on try to

00:22:09.040 justify it? Absolutely. But the abolitionists were not arguing from enlightenment ideas, secular ideas.

00:22:13.860 I mean, one of the earliest anti-slavery checks is called the selling of Joseph for a reason.

00:22:17.620 They were arguing from the Christian tradition. Okay, so there was something moving within

00:22:22.000 Christianity that Tom Holland talks about that did eventually lead to this new change in our

00:22:26.880 ethics and our understanding of slavery that did get abolished, that did lead to its abolishing it.

00:22:31.740 So there was something within it that didn't happen in Muslim countries. It didn't happen in the

00:22:36.260 Far East. Even early enlightened thinkers like Voltaire and David Hume were trying to justify slavery.

00:22:41.080 So, I mean, like, everyone tried to justify slavery. The question we need to ask is,

00:22:44.280 what motivated the abolitionists? And you can again say, yeah, Christians did justify

00:22:48.480 slavery. That doesn't challenge the fact that what the abolitionists were using and arguing from.

00:22:53.420 Right. But there have been multiple societies that abolished slavery many thousands of years prior

00:22:59.120 to the U.S. There was a dynasty in China in the B.C. era that abolished slavery for a time period.

00:23:04.820 There was a leader in India for a period of a couple hundred years where slavery was abolished.

00:23:09.100 There were Stoics in Greece that were abolitionists.

00:23:12.360 No, there weren't. There weren't any Stoics. There actually was. Seneca.

00:23:15.040 Epic. No, he did not say slavery should be abolished. Seneca.

00:23:17.820 Epicantius was, for example, an early slave. Seneca absolutely advocated for getting rid of

00:23:22.040 slavery, said it was an immoral institution. He said it was immoral. He didn't say it should go

00:23:26.200 away as a necessary evil. There was quite a few Stoics that agreed with him.

00:23:29.920 They agreed slavery was bad, but they didn't call for abolition. The first person to call for the

00:23:33.580 abolition of slavery, Gregory of Nyssa. That is wrong.

00:23:36.880 No, Gregory of Nyssa is the first person. He's the first Christian that talked about abolishing

00:23:41.060 slavery, but he was outruled by the other church fathers. The other church fathers disagreed

00:23:45.360 with him. No, no. He's the first person in history to call for the abolition.

00:23:48.140 No, he certainly is not the first person in history. In fact, I already quoted you. There's

00:23:52.600 the, I think the, the wing dynasty in China, and then there's another dynasty in India that

00:23:57.940 abolished it way before. No, I'm talking about universal abolition.

00:24:00.920 Yeah, that was universally abolitioned. I have a fact check.

00:24:05.700 Seneca did not explicitly advocate for abolishing slavery while he criticized the mistreatment of

00:24:09.320 slaves and encouraged, uh, encouraged humane treatment. He accepted slavery as a social

00:24:12.540 institution. The sources for this are moral letters to Lucilius, letter 47, and, uh, Seneca

00:24:17.820 de Beneficis, book three, chapter 18. And then there is a book in 1994 discussing Roman's

00:24:23.140 attitudes towards slavery called Bradley Keith's Slavery Society in Rome.

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00:25:50.480 Seneca had been executed if he'd called for the abolition of it at that period?

00:25:54.000 I don't think he would have been executed. It's just, Kyle Harper talks about this in his book.

00:25:57.280 It's just, no one even questioned it. It's like trying to say, could we get rid of water?

00:26:00.960 Or money?

00:26:01.620 Yeah, they just knew that this was just something that could never go away.

00:26:04.380 Money's a really good example. I think people need to understand, when we talk about slavery

00:26:08.240 in the United States, most people, they envision a black man in a field being beaten by a slave owner.

00:26:14.320 They don't realize how pervasive and widespread the institution of slavery was beyond

00:26:18.200 farming and the South. There were coublers. Black men who were trained to make shoes,

00:26:23.660 who worked in cities, and ran shoe stores where they transacted. But slavery meant that

00:26:29.020 they had no legal rights. That means there was a person who owned them, and they wanted them to

00:26:33.960 do this job. There's also an important factor in that they were, depending on what the slave owner

00:26:39.980 or the slave master wanted, they could make money for themselves. And in fact, Frederick Douglass

00:26:44.600 bought his own freedom, and then later bought the freedom of his wife and his child. It shouldn't

00:26:48.460 have happened that way.

00:26:49.640 No.

00:26:50.060 But, and obviously slavery is bad. The reason I bring this up is, I kind of lost my train of thought.

00:26:56.320 I'm sorry. Slavery was viewed as exactly as we would view something like money, an economic

00:27:01.880 institution that exists and is a function of government. And then slowly over time, sentiments

00:27:06.060 towards it started to shift in the direction, and it ended up with a very bloody war in the United

00:27:10.360 States. Now, for other, like the UK, they basically said, we're ending slavery, and then we're going

00:27:16.140 to have to pay back everybody for taking their slaves away from them. They did a big debt. And

00:27:20.220 then they ended up paying, I don't know, it took them like 100 years to pay off the debt or something?

00:27:23.060 It took a good, you know, 100 years. It started early with like Anabaptists and Methodists working

00:27:27.620 together. And eventually they started to get legislation passed. They got rid of the slave trade

00:27:32.080 in some new territories under William Penn. And then shortly after, they abolished the slave trade

00:27:36.500 throughout the British Empire. And then a couple decades later, they emancipated slaves. So it was

00:27:41.060 a slow process.

00:27:42.220 We'll shift a little bit. Now I'll jump to my good friend, Bill Maher. All right, go for it.

00:27:46.480 Before you get too far, the emperor that abolished slavery in China was not Wing, it was Wang. I

00:27:55.180 apologize for that. And that was in the first century. In India, hundreds of years before that,

00:28:03.140 there was Ashoka who abolished slavery. Now it came back years later, but early abolitionists

00:28:10.200 existed throughout the world.

00:28:11.900 So I want to shift to our good friend, Bill Maher. Not really a good friend, but he's not

00:28:17.600 that bad. He's all right. Obviously he made that documentary, Religious. And, you know,

00:28:22.120 he goes around challenging people's views and things as such, and that's always okay. The reason

00:28:26.200 to bring him up is that Dennis Prager made a good example. He has a good example of moral

00:28:31.700 tradition and where you go when you destroy it. And he calls it, I think he calls it, I always get

00:28:35.160 it wrong, cut stem politics, something like this, where he basically says, you have this, the root

00:28:40.620 of a society, which in his view is the Judeo-Christian moral tradition. He's Jewish, obviously. And it grows

00:28:45.480 into this beautiful flower that someone then cuts from the stem and holds up in the air and shows

00:28:49.380 everyone how beautiful it is. But you know that once it's cut from its roots, it will eventually

00:28:53.020 start to die. And that's where we're at right now. You can hold up this beautiful American society,

00:28:57.860 but as, in his view, Judeo-Christian values wane, it eventually is going to die. I think it's a

00:29:04.080 really good point. I think what we're seeing now with the current generations and their movement

00:29:10.820 dramatically away from a—I mean, to be honest, any kind of moral tradition, though I don't think

00:29:15.340 all moral traditions are good. There are some that are in the East that they chop your hands off and

00:29:20.180 things like that I'm not a fan of. But the moral tradition we have in this country

00:29:23.800 about honoring your parents, about not stealing, not killing, is slowly disappearing, and I would

00:29:31.300 say largely built in the Ten Commandments. And what we're getting in its wake is people who fear

00:29:36.280 nothing, care for nothing, we're getting—these people are ramming cars into department stores in

00:29:41.680 Chicago. It's happened so many times that they've put up barriers in front of—in Mag Mile.

00:29:46.640 My friends who live in Chicago are like, you can't even go there anymore. A 13-year-old kid pulled out a gun,

00:29:49.980 started shooting people in a shopping district. How is this happening? Well, you've ripped people

00:29:54.180 from any kind of moral tradition, any kind of social fear or cultural consequence, or for many

00:29:58.980 people, any kind of spiritual consequence. I find that you—a lot of the great things from

00:30:04.700 Christianity, we've learned them, and then now you're supposed to like—so you learn a great piece

00:30:09.300 of information from a seminar somewhere. You take that information, you integrate it into your life,

00:30:13.200 you create books, you create empires with that information in it, and then that information is

00:30:18.000 redistributed. That doesn't mean everyone needs to go to that seminar you went to 30 years ago where

00:30:22.060 you learned this. So people that are obsessed with this book and worshiping some dude is like,

00:30:27.000 bro, good luck trying to get half the world to worship a guy. It's insane. We shouldn't be

00:30:31.620 worshiping each other, first of all. But the ideas need to be reintegrated into society. Some of these

00:30:36.900 really good ones, like I think the Ten Commandments are fascinating.

00:30:39.640 Well, on that, I mean—

00:30:41.640 They existed prior to the Bible and outside of the Bible, and countries that were largely Christian,

00:30:46.400 like the Scandinavian countries, were largely Lutheran. They have their own state church

00:30:50.060 that are now below 50% population. As it turns out, like, their citizen rates, their crime rates,

00:30:56.480 all lower in Scandinavia than what we have here, and they've largely depopulized the church.

00:31:00.980 Sweden would like to have a word with you.

00:31:02.620 Well, Sweden's importing Muslims, which is part of the problem.

00:31:05.140 And that goes back to the main problem, though.

00:31:07.340 But I've got to stress, the children—the problem that Sweden is facing is that they

00:31:12.500 brought in Somali refugees in the 90s who had children who are not overtly religious in

00:31:17.460 any capacity, and the crime that they're witnessing is gang-related violence with grenade attacks.

00:31:21.820 They've collected old weapons from the Balkan Wars, and they're throwing grenades at each

00:31:25.720 other. They're getting fully automatic weapons, and it's completely unrelated to religion.

00:31:28.960 And why did they, though, that we need to ask that question?

00:31:30.960 It's because secularism has led to abysmally bad birth rates.

00:31:36.940 Secularism in, like, studies like Secularism and Fertility Worldwide notes that secularism

00:31:41.480 is correlating with population stagnation, including population decline.

00:31:45.800 That's why they're importing a lot of people.

00:31:47.380 I don't think in the 90s, Sweden—I could be wrong, but I don't think the importing of

00:31:51.520 Somali refugees and migrants was specifically related to a low population.

00:31:55.640 They had declining birth rates for many decades.

00:31:57.940 The Bible tells you not to have kids.

00:31:59.200 Jesus himself says it's better for you to be a eunuch for the gospel.

00:32:02.300 Paul advocates in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 that if you're married, it's better that you

00:32:06.940 remain as though you're not married, because the present world is coming to an end.

00:32:10.080 He says, if you're single, stay single.

00:32:11.980 I would rather you be like me, be unmarried to serve the gospel.

00:32:14.780 Are we talking about whether Christianity is true or the effects of Christianity?

00:32:17.460 There's not a single teaching in the Bible that says you should have kids.

00:32:20.660 Are we talking about whether Christianity is true or the effects of Christianity?

00:32:23.240 What I'm saying is, we're rooting this to what the book says.

00:32:26.320 Christianity is rooted in the book, and you're saying, listen, because Christianity is diminishing,

00:32:31.940 that's causing lower birth rates, but that's not actually the case.

00:32:34.840 But there's nothing in Christianity that teaches you to have kids.

00:32:37.520 I do think that's very selective, because you are ignoring be fruitful and multiply.

00:32:41.120 I mean, if we're going to say—

00:32:42.500 That's a Jewish teaching.

00:32:43.520 Sure.

00:32:43.780 Part of the Christian Bible.

00:32:44.660 And so is slavery.

00:32:46.360 But you wouldn't let me use slavery.

00:32:48.340 You would say, no, that's not in the New Testament.

00:32:50.740 But hold on.

00:32:51.820 The point made on slavery was that everybody did it.

00:32:54.620 Christians did it.

00:32:55.280 Christians abolished it.

00:32:56.080 Christians supported it.

00:32:56.740 Christians opposed it.

00:32:57.420 So it's moot.

00:32:57.900 But the unquestionable God says to do it.

00:33:00.260 That's the problem.

00:33:01.200 And then the Christians eventually said, actually, that actually defies some of the teachings.

00:33:04.840 They get rid of it.

00:33:05.700 I think it's a moot point to claim.

00:33:07.300 But there's no teaching that says you can't own slaves.

00:33:08.920 It's not a single word of the Bible that says that owning a slave is a sin.

00:33:11.500 Again, it's not about whether Christianity is true.

00:33:12.980 It's about the actual effects we see in society.

00:33:14.840 You may think is a fact.

00:33:15.680 Which was your first point.

00:33:16.400 Yeah.

00:33:16.640 You may think the Bible will cause X, Y, and Z.

00:33:18.300 Let's divorce Christianity from the Bible.

00:33:20.120 I'm all for it.

00:33:20.960 But let's look real quick.

00:33:21.940 The sooner we can do that, the sooner it becomes a less toxic religion.

00:33:26.200 I just want to make this one point before we move on, is that you've selected from the

00:33:30.480 Bible only one thing to support your claim.

00:33:32.980 You didn't have to do that.

00:33:33.980 You could have literally said, I do know that the Bible both says to have kids and not to

00:33:37.480 have kids.

00:33:38.020 But then there's no argument to be made.

00:33:39.400 So it seems like you did that intentionally.

00:33:41.460 I didn't do it intentionally.

00:33:42.260 In the New Testament, that's the Christian doctrine.

00:33:44.880 Children, the last thing that is said about having families is to not do it.

00:33:49.780 What does it specifically say?

00:33:50.820 It says in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 that the present form of the world is coming to an end.

00:33:55.120 In Matthew chapter 19, Jesus advocates for people being eunuchs to the gospel.

00:34:00.080 Let me find it real quick.

00:34:01.240 And Paul also says just before that, this is my own word, not a word from the Lord.

00:34:04.560 His disciples said to him, if such is the case, talking about divorce, saying that you

00:34:08.560 can't remarry a woman, if such is the case of a man and a wife, it is better to not marry.

00:34:13.520 Then he said to them, not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is

00:34:17.240 given.

00:34:17.900 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been

00:34:21.240 made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the

00:34:25.000 sake of the kingdom of heaven.

00:34:26.380 Let anyone accept this who can.

00:34:28.920 And then in 1 Corinthians chapter 7...

00:34:30.560 It certainly sounds like you're twisting what that actually says.

00:34:32.400 It doesn't say to all people everywhere don't have kids.

00:34:36.540 I never said this what it says.

00:34:37.620 Jesus says...

00:34:38.040 But the Bible does say be fruitful and multiply.

00:34:39.700 Let anyone accept this who can.

00:34:41.660 Accept what?

00:34:42.340 That it's better to be a eunuch for the sake of the gospel.

00:34:44.840 Anyone who can?

00:34:45.520 Anyone who can accept it, which is why in 1 Corinthians chapter 7, Paul himself advocates

00:34:50.380 for people remaining single.

00:34:52.620 If you're single, remain single.

00:34:54.800 And why is that the case?

00:34:55.920 Because the present form of the world is about to end.

00:34:59.160 1 Corinthians 7 verse 8...

00:35:01.760 To the unmarried and to the widows, I say that it's good for them to remain single as

00:35:04.820 I am.

00:35:05.560 It's good.

00:35:06.100 He says it's gonna be a good thing, but he also says, hey, if you're burning with passion,

00:35:08.980 get married.

00:35:09.720 So they never say you should never not be married.

00:35:11.500 I never said that.

00:35:12.140 I never said that the Bible says you should never get married.

00:35:15.100 Okay.

00:35:15.360 If you're burning with passion, if you can't control yourself, it's okay to get married.

00:35:19.660 Okay.

00:35:20.220 That's our point.

00:35:20.400 So Paul and Jesus both advocated for limiting your actual family activities.

00:35:26.720 Okay.

00:35:27.120 And again, we're not talking about whether Christianity is true.

00:35:29.680 We're talking about the actual effects it's created.

00:35:31.860 So for example, a longtime sociologist thought that secularism would actually increase democratic

00:35:35.600 values.

00:35:36.260 And recently, social and political scientists like John Compton have been saying, no, actually,

00:35:41.020 we're seeing the opposite.

00:35:42.000 It's actually diminishing support for democratic values.

00:35:44.780 So sometimes we think from armchair sociology, X, Y, and Z is going to cause so-and-so, but

00:35:49.820 no, we actually, Christianity does cause sustainable population and birth rates.

00:35:53.340 Well, that's the hard question, I suppose, because, you know, instead of discussing whether

00:35:57.000 the Bible is real, like you were saying, if Christianity leaves, we were talking about

00:36:02.640 power vacuums, like if the constitutional republic were to fall, what happens to this

00:36:07.580 country if Christianity, let's say Christianity overnight, within like spending a few months,

00:36:11.900 people just largely abandoned it and said, we're completely over this.

00:36:16.180 Do you believe that there would be no new moral framework, spiritual-based moral framework,

00:36:19.900 or do you think a different one may move in?

00:36:21.620 Oh, there certainly would be.

00:36:22.580 So a lot of the young people that are moving away from Christianity are actually moving

00:36:25.760 into like different forms of spiritualism.

00:36:28.700 So it's not like they're leaving Christianity and going to atheism.

00:36:32.120 Like that's something that I did, but that's not something that's actually happening in

00:36:35.260 mass.

00:36:36.300 So young people are actually remaining quite spiritual.

00:36:38.720 And believe it or not, there's a really weird crossover right now between people deconverting

00:36:42.540 from Christianity, actually moving into what we might call like Eastern religions, for

00:36:48.400 example, like Buddhism.

00:36:49.200 And Buddhism actually has a lot of the same core tenets as Christianity.

00:36:52.800 So if you look at the core tenets of Buddhism, they believe in charity, they believe in being

00:36:59.160 kind to your neighbors, you know.

00:37:01.240 So like there's certainly, it's not like we're creating an open vacuum for all hell to break

00:37:06.900 loose, like people are still going to gravitate towards structure because the human mind desires

00:37:12.140 structure.

00:37:13.180 So Islam is projected to be the fastest growing religion in the United States as Christianity

00:37:17.260 declines.

00:37:17.740 And that's a huge problem.

00:37:19.000 That is a fucking huge problem.

00:37:20.860 And why are we seeing that?

00:37:21.940 Because we can see in real time what secularism, the secularization of America and Europe is

00:37:26.180 doing.

00:37:26.660 Declining birth rates, lower levels of charity.

00:37:29.100 In fact, John Compton and Philip Gorski, Roger Brubaker have pointed out, as Christianity

00:37:33.660 has been declining, we're seeing a less value and appreciation for democratic values, more

00:37:39.240 rise of right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism.

00:37:41.780 This is coming out of the actual data we're seeing.

00:37:43.580 Let me just—

00:37:44.580 How does the data point to less Christianity, more totalitarianism?

00:37:48.220 Oh, good question.

00:37:48.300 Because that's not true in any of the other countries.

00:37:50.420 Let me just—

00:37:51.380 If you just look at the other democratic nations that have de-Christianized, we're not

00:37:56.060 seeing that they're being—they're going into extremism.

00:37:59.380 So almost all of the standard—

00:38:00.000 You don't see authoritarianism in Europe?

00:38:01.980 Denmark, Norway.

00:38:03.120 I'm sorry, you need to go to those countries.

00:38:05.320 They call Sweden the North Korea of the North.

00:38:08.220 So you're picking on Sweden, but have you looked at any of the other countries?

00:38:13.260 I did.

00:38:13.820 Germany.

00:38:14.800 And because they rate very well on the democratic and the happiness scale every single year.

00:38:20.520 That's complete and utter BS.

00:38:21.460 Just like North Korea does.

00:38:23.440 Just like North Korea does, right?

00:38:25.480 The people of North Korea vote for Kim Jong-un 98% every single time.

00:38:29.180 The media in these countries is homogenous and under deep authoritarian control to the point

00:38:34.940 where when I went there to post YouTube videos, we actually had spooks from the government spying

00:38:39.800 on our hotel rooms.

00:38:40.880 That's—when we went to one location—and don't get me wrong.

00:38:44.160 I've been to Norway and Bergen as well.

00:38:45.680 It's not identical, but it is very, very similar in how the media is controlled and how people,

00:38:49.900 they call them brainwashed in the Scandinavian countries.

00:38:52.340 I went to Sweden, and the first thing I did was I interviewed a Green Party leftist politician

00:38:58.180 who seemed very reasonable.

00:38:59.500 They all praised me and cheered for me unanimously across all the media.

00:39:03.060 We went to Rinkeby, and we got attacked by the children of Somali migrants.

00:39:07.280 I don't want to say attacked.

00:39:07.980 They were screaming at us, and the police warned us.

00:39:09.940 They would start throwing stones, and they'd escort us out.

00:39:12.320 I said, okay.

00:39:13.320 When I tweeted that, instantly the entire media apparatus of the country turned on me.

00:39:18.020 The entire narrative inverted, and they were saying I was a crackpot Alex Jones conspiracy

00:39:21.620 theorist.

00:39:22.580 They—when I started talking to people outside the country, they said, Sweden's, of course,

00:39:27.040 the worst, but the rest of these countries operate under this authoritarian, homogenous

00:39:32.640 culture, much like—and I hate to go Godwin's law—it isn't so much that the government comes

00:39:38.720 to you and beats you to death or throws you in a camp.

00:39:41.440 The homogeneity and the authoritarianism they have is, if you speak out, you will have no

00:39:46.260 money, you will have no home, and you will never work again.

00:39:48.580 And so everybody falls in line, and no one dares speak about it.

00:39:51.460 Which is weird, because the data says that they're happier, they live longer, they're healthier.

00:39:55.360 Well, I can address that absolutely true.

00:39:56.580 There was a—one of the most famous studies on choice and happiness was they brought people

00:40:01.680 into a—they pitched a bunch of people, would you like to do a study?

00:40:04.740 Everybody says yes, right?

00:40:05.960 They get their two groups, their control group and their study group, and they said, the

00:40:10.840 study is to fill out this questionnaire.

00:40:13.040 When you're done, you'll get a free t-shirt.

00:40:15.220 When everybody fills out the questionnaire, what they didn't realize the real study was,

00:40:19.160 as they're leaving, one group was handed a free white t-shirt, and they said, thank

00:40:23.300 you.

00:40:23.540 The other group was told, you can have the green, white, or blue t-shirt.

00:40:27.080 Then they got to choose.

00:40:28.340 As they were walking out, they said, please rate your satisfaction with your experience

00:40:31.500 here.

00:40:31.680 Guess what?

00:40:32.540 The people who got to choose the color of shirt they wanted rated higher levels of unhappiness

00:40:37.120 because they were unsure of themselves.

00:40:38.720 That was actually a surprising finding, which they found, as I would say, as Harriet Tubman

00:40:43.200 said, to go back to slavery, I have freed many slaves.

00:40:44.860 I would have freed many more if only they knew they were slaves.

00:40:47.200 Ignorance is bliss.

00:40:48.620 I think unhappiness comes with freedom and hard choices being made.

00:40:53.380 What company did that survey?

00:40:55.400 This is an old internet trope.

00:40:58.420 So you're not referring to any methodology that's actually being used by the World Happiest

00:41:04.200 Index that's been doing this for decades?

00:41:06.600 So you're doing credentialism and appeal to authority?

00:41:09.380 No, I'm just saying that...

00:41:10.200 That's an appeal to authority.

00:41:10.820 You're saying that the way they're doing the studies is improper.

00:41:13.400 I want to know who's doing it that way.

00:41:15.180 How are they doing the study?

00:41:16.860 I'm asking you.

00:41:17.660 You're saying...

00:41:17.960 No, no, no, no, no.

00:41:18.400 You cited an organization and you're trying to do credentialism.

00:41:21.040 You're the one telling me that they're doing it a particular way.

00:41:22.140 How are they doing it?

00:41:23.380 How are they doing it?

00:41:24.040 I don't know.

00:41:24.600 I haven't looked at...

00:41:25.240 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:41:25.880 You cited an organization?

00:41:26.980 You don't even know what they're doing?

00:41:27.760 What I'm saying...

00:41:28.180 I'm asking you.

00:41:29.000 You're saying that this is the way they're conducting the surveys.

00:41:31.220 No, I didn't.

00:41:31.540 I didn't say that.

00:41:32.020 I'm asking who's doing it that way.

00:41:33.360 You brought up those surveys.

00:41:34.860 I did, yes.

00:41:35.440 Okay, so what do they do?

00:41:36.480 How do they write them?

00:41:37.240 Again, I don't know their methodology.

00:41:38.920 Okay, so let's just ignore...

00:41:39.740 I never claimed no.

00:41:40.760 Let's just ignore that you brought up a point you don't even understand because that makes

00:41:43.440 you look really dumb.

00:41:44.300 The other thing about these happiness studies is I never cite them.

00:41:47.440 I can show you studies that say Christians claim they're happy.

00:41:49.640 You're just asking people if they're happy.

00:41:51.640 And if you go to someplace like Japan, most people are going to say no because that's their

00:41:54.820 cultural heritage.

00:41:56.620 You're claiming too much honor to say you're happy.

00:41:58.600 You go to Scandinavia, it's the cultural norm to say you're happy even if you're not.

00:42:02.500 So a lot of those studies, they're not that well designed because you just can ask people.

00:42:06.880 You can't measure happiness.

00:42:08.320 You just have to ask someone.

00:42:09.800 So I avoid those studies for that very reason.

00:42:12.100 But they rank health outcomes in other...

00:42:14.340 It's not just a survey.

00:42:15.860 When they do the surveys, it's not just are you happy.

00:42:19.180 So the World Happiness Index is the most famous one.

00:42:22.140 They're not just asking are you happy.

00:42:23.900 They're actually looking at overall health predictors as well.

00:42:27.060 Obesity, diet, smoking, exercise.

00:42:29.600 There's all kinds of stuff that they're actually looking for.

00:42:32.280 What gets published in the news is...

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00:43:57.720 Like, hey, here are the happy countries.

00:43:59.480 But if you actually look at the data points they're collecting,

00:44:01.720 they're collecting all kinds of data points.

00:44:03.540 Longevity, life expectancy, all kinds of the data shows up in those reports.

00:44:07.420 Those reports are hundreds of pages long.

00:44:09.560 You only get one paragraph in the news.

00:44:12.500 I've got one right here.

00:44:14.040 Did you read it in its entirety?

00:44:15.780 I've read them in their entirety before.

00:44:17.660 But you don't know the methodology?

00:44:18.720 These are secular.

00:44:19.520 I can find you the methodology.

00:44:21.160 I'm sure it's in the report.

00:44:21.560 My point is simply, don't come at me and question my stances and opinions on things

00:44:26.320 based on methodology if you haven't done it yourself.

00:44:28.220 That's just...

00:44:28.780 There's also a difference between happiness and fulfillment.

00:44:31.420 Like, somebody might, hey, today we gave you a sticker.

00:44:35.400 And you'd be like, oh, I'm happy.

00:44:36.700 But, like, I'm so lonely when I go home.

00:44:38.920 I'm not fulfilled in life.

00:44:40.420 But for a moment, I was happy.

00:44:41.820 Like, happiness comes and goes.

00:44:42.820 It's fleeting.

00:44:43.640 And if you're feeling happy when you fill out that survey,

00:44:45.720 but, like, are they fulfilled?

00:44:46.800 These people living under the totalitarian boot.

00:44:48.720 Do they know they are?

00:44:49.980 This is the thing about Christianity, man.

00:44:51.420 It used to be counterculture.

00:44:52.860 It used to be a revolutionary to be a Christian.

00:44:54.680 You used to get hunted down by the government for being a Christian.

00:44:56.920 Then it became the government.

00:44:58.820 It became the totalitarian regime.

00:45:01.040 So, like, what are we even talking about?

00:45:02.120 We're talking about Christianity.

00:45:02.760 This is another going back to the topic.

00:45:03.980 But, like, what are we—what version of it do we want?

00:45:07.140 There's two principal religions that have replaced Christianity as it's waned.

00:45:10.440 The first, obviously, being Islam, as it's projected to be the fastest growing.

00:45:13.780 It's not quite the fastest growing just yet, but globally, I believe it is.

00:45:16.740 And the other, obviously, was—I guess we would refer to as wokeness.

00:45:20.720 As Christianity started to wane among millennials predominantly, less so among Gen X and boomers,

00:45:25.240 they started to adopt this—what we called a non-theistic religion.

00:45:29.260 That is, there were tenets, there were priests, there were institutional power structures,

00:45:33.620 and you ended up getting what was effectively chapels to wokeness in every major business,

00:45:40.180 diversity chiefs.

00:45:41.320 These people had no coherent logic.

00:45:43.380 They still don't.

00:45:44.180 We are seeing this now be pushed back and shoved aside,

00:45:47.200 particularly by a large group of Christians and moderates.

00:45:50.100 But wokeness was an emergent religion that began to replace Christianity.

00:45:55.760 And the issue that we end up seeing with people in—

00:45:58.820 if you take a look at these NSA whistleblower conversations Chris Rufo was bringing up,

00:46:02.060 everybody was happy at work.

00:46:05.120 Everybody was totally fine with hiring based on race.

00:46:08.300 Everybody was totally fine with the fact that instead of actually doing your job at your accounting firm,

00:46:13.200 you were having meetings on whether you had sex with men or women.

00:46:16.160 Well, clearly that's not true.

00:46:17.860 People were deeply terrified of it, but nobody would speak up.

00:46:20.560 So we ended up getting these polls.

00:46:22.820 We ended up getting all this information suggesting Donald Trump couldn't win an election,

00:46:25.760 and then somehow he did twice.

00:46:27.820 Because clearly whatever they were tracking wasn't actually represented what people felt on the inside.

00:46:32.460 No, what happened was you had a deeply authoritarian religious institution,

00:46:36.140 an intersectionality or whatever they want to call it,

00:46:38.720 where people were terrified that if they spoke up against it,

00:46:41.360 they would actually lose their livelihoods.

00:46:43.240 There was no enforcement mechanism codified in law.

00:46:45.760 There were no police who were going to do it.

00:46:47.260 You just knew that if you were at work and you said,

00:46:49.580 hey man, I don't think we should hire based on who this guy's fucking,

00:46:52.700 they would be like, you're fired and you'll never get a promotion again.

00:46:55.360 So people shut up and said, everything's great, I'm happy.

00:46:58.160 And they voted for Donald Trump.

00:46:59.180 I'm thinking about Nazism right now, and I want to know what you guys think about this.

00:47:02.280 Because it sort of seems like a de facto religion, Nazism.

00:47:06.080 This obsessive cult worship of their prophet, Hitler, and whatever.

00:47:11.500 But at the same time, it was like a Christian political movement.

00:47:14.900 They call themselves Christian.

00:47:15.980 They identify with Christianity.

00:47:17.700 So it wasn't like Christianity seeped, fell away, and then something else seeped in.

00:47:21.380 But it's like multiple cult mentalities started.

00:47:24.420 So what's up with that?

00:47:25.560 So if you read, again, like Nathan Johnson or other historians about Nazis,

00:47:30.220 there's so much debate about what they believe,

00:47:32.480 because Hitler said so many contradictory things.

00:47:34.920 Yeah, there's no unified belief.

00:47:36.240 No, the majority is that at least Nazism was a political religion.

00:47:40.360 The new savior becomes Hitler.

00:47:42.520 What you worship is Aryanism, this white German identity.

00:47:47.080 And so this is a political religion.

00:47:49.020 It's sort of what you were talking about with wokeism earlier.

00:47:50.980 It becomes this political religion.

00:47:52.900 But they did form a church.

00:47:54.300 Yeah, they did.

00:47:54.920 The Church of the Third Reich was a real church formed by the Third Reich.

00:47:57.540 And they called it positive Christianity to distinguish it between Catholic and Protestant.

00:48:02.360 And this new idea was just, again, it was just a neo-Marcion view.

00:48:05.380 And this is why I brought up, again, I said I don't want to go into Godwin's law,

00:48:09.020 but the reason I brought it up is when people like to refer to the Nazis as socialists,

00:48:13.180 that's not true.

00:48:14.060 But what is true is they used social enforcement to ensure that people were working towards the goals of the Nazi party.

00:48:21.920 So it's been a long time since I read this.

00:48:24.000 I read, I guess, a book, I don't know, a PhD thesis review of the economics,

00:48:30.260 largely because people were like, they're saying they're socialists.

00:48:33.000 And the summary is basically, no, they weren't forced the way the communists were.

00:48:37.140 But if you were a factor with the means of producing steel, the Nazi party would say,

00:48:42.400 what do you mean you're not producing steel for us?

00:48:44.240 You don't oppose our government, do you?

00:48:46.660 And everyone would say, no, no, no, no, we'll do whatever you say.

00:48:48.700 So everyone seemed to be just choosing to do things despite the fact they were actually doing it

00:48:52.740 because they knew they'd be murdered, killed, or thrown in camps.

00:48:55.600 It was a political religion, authoritarian in nature.

00:48:59.080 They would call themselves positive Christians on purpose

00:49:02.660 because they didn't want to be known as Protestant or Catholic Christians.

00:49:05.560 And positive Christianity, as they talk about this in the book, the Holy Reich,

00:49:10.220 was Jesus now becomes a white Aryan, the atonement's thrown out,

00:49:14.200 the Old Testament is thrown out, anything Jewish is thrown out.

00:49:17.360 It became just basically this weird cult that was just political, purely in nature.

00:49:21.860 Let's talk about modern America right now.

00:49:24.420 And I like to use Bill Maher as a good example because he's a late 60s, childless,

00:49:29.680 I guess the rumors are about him, I don't mean to be a dick,

00:49:32.200 but that he gets around, he sleeps around.

00:49:34.240 And why don't we see strong moral values in atheists and agnostics in this country

00:49:41.680 the same way we see it in Christians?

00:49:44.120 Well, I mean, I think that's an interesting question.

00:49:47.100 For one thing, I don't want to say all atheists are like that.

00:49:51.580 But what we do see is definitely this new cultural norm that Bill Maher's lifestyle

00:49:56.580 is just a good thing.

00:49:58.520 It's good to be single, childless, and in your 60s or 70s.

00:50:02.340 And that's a problem, ultimately, for many reasons.

00:50:05.680 I would quantify it rather informally, I guess, admittedly,

00:50:08.980 in that when you look to the prominent speakers on the right,

00:50:12.120 Ashley St. Clair is getting absolutely annihilated by the Christian conservatives,

00:50:16.980 and Elon, despite Elon helping Donald Trump win.

00:50:20.420 They're getting absolutely annihilated for Elon for having all these kids,

00:50:24.020 for Ashley for having a kid with Elon, for having kids out of wedlock.

00:50:26.860 And then you look at most of the prominent—not all, obviously not—

00:50:30.300 I'm not going to give Trump credit for being a great, traditionally moral man or whatever.

00:50:34.140 He has good kids, though.

00:50:35.360 But you take a look at these typical conservative individuals, you'll find.

00:50:40.700 They have kids.

00:50:41.760 They talk about protecting children.

00:50:43.160 They talk about going to church, having communal values.

00:50:46.000 You don't see that reflected in the atheists.

00:50:48.100 In fact—and again, I'm not saying all atheists.

00:50:49.900 I'm not saying all Christians.

00:50:52.080 People who work here, obviously, atheists are agnostic,

00:50:54.320 and they're good friends, and they're good moral people.

00:50:55.860 But it's not—it seems to be tendencies in the inverse direction.

00:50:59.460 That is, the Christian conservative commentators tend to have kids,

00:51:03.760 go to church, teach responsibility, meritocracy, and things like this.

00:51:07.420 And prominent atheists tend to say things like,

00:51:09.960 don't have family, take whatever you want, wake up, masturbate, die alone.

00:51:13.940 And you end up seeing now, predominantly among the left, individuals who are—and they're all—atheist, agnostic,

00:51:21.120 advocating for giving children pornography in schools, drag queen story hour,

00:51:24.640 and things that are destructive and amoral.

00:51:26.360 These are tendencies, not necessarily quantified in any hard data, I'll admit.

00:51:30.900 Well, I mean, look at the culture that comes out of these different ideas of, like, a secular atheist view.

00:51:35.620 For people that are in academia or the high levels of media, they have a purpose in society.

00:51:40.200 But you tell the common man, hey, you're only going to live a good 70 years, and you'll die, so just have as much fun.

00:51:45.860 The common man is left with basically hedonism as his only fulfilling desire.

00:51:50.700 Whereas if you go to Christianity, you tell the poorest of the poor, the creator of the universe, died for you so that you can have eternal life.

00:51:57.080 You're going to have motivations to be a moral person, to return love to the creator they gave to you,

00:52:02.460 and to actually do what he said, like, be fruitful and multiply, for example.

00:52:05.600 Which is weird, because the most statistically likely place that you're going to get sexually assaulted is at a church.

00:52:10.980 And that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

00:52:12.880 It's almost like Christian values isn't preventing kids from getting raped.

00:52:16.620 And once again, you're not making an argument.

00:52:18.480 No, there is.

00:52:19.000 Well, it's true.

00:52:19.320 30% of all rape cases for children under the age of 18 happen church-related.

00:52:24.600 And I'm going to respond to that by saying blah, blah, blah, because the point we're making is that in prominent pop culture,

00:52:29.820 in politics, there's a tendency among the right Christian conservatives not to be raping children,

00:52:35.580 and there's a tendency among the left to be raping children.

00:52:37.060 But they keep doing it.

00:52:37.960 It's weird.

00:52:38.620 It's weird that the conservative Christians keep raping children.

00:52:42.180 And you're saying, hey, look at this instance of bad people doing bad things.

00:52:45.240 I agree.

00:52:45.940 Let's talk about the tendencies.

00:52:47.100 When it comes to, like, the church abusing children, which I agree over, historically it seems to have.

00:52:51.460 I think it's whenever you put a lot of kids in an area, like daycare or something,

00:52:55.520 there's just going to be a tendency for a lot of those kids to get abused,

00:52:58.220 because that's where kids are congregating.

00:52:59.820 And for thousands of years, it was at church.

00:53:01.900 It's correlative, not causative.

00:53:03.160 Anna Salter talks about this in her book, creditors.

00:53:05.080 But hold on.

00:53:06.180 Today, 31%.

00:53:07.380 Again, you are changing the subject because you didn't have an answer.

00:53:10.180 No, your subject was Christian morals going away because of atheism.

00:53:13.880 But in Christian circles, they're still raping children today.

00:53:16.800 So let's pause.

00:53:18.100 And once again, I will say you are not actually addressing what we were just talking about.

00:53:21.820 I'm literally addressing it right now.

00:53:23.520 You're saying that atheists don't have moral systems.

00:53:26.200 They don't.

00:53:26.660 But neither do Christians.

00:53:28.780 Christians do.

00:53:29.400 What is a Christian moral system?

00:53:31.320 Find me in the Bible where I can find a Christian moral system.

00:53:33.980 The Ten Commandments.

00:53:34.460 Can you find me outside the Bible where those exist?

00:53:37.200 Because they exist in the 42 laws of Ma'at.

00:53:39.080 They exist in the Ten Commandments.

00:53:40.380 The Ten Commandments do not exist in the 42 laws of Ma'at.

00:53:42.280 That's a big conspiracy.

00:53:43.540 Hold on.

00:53:44.000 Hold on.

00:53:44.020 Almost every single commandment that you'll find in the Ten exists in every single culture.

00:53:49.180 I didn't say they didn't.

00:53:50.280 This isn't unique to Christianity.

00:53:52.560 I didn't say it was.

00:53:53.580 Once again, you're not—

00:53:54.420 The Ten Commandment says not to covet your neighbor's slave.

00:53:57.440 Atheists and agnostics don't have that moral structure.

00:54:00.700 No, we don't have a—

00:54:01.660 We don't have a God-given moral structure.

00:54:05.120 It's a subjective moral structure.

00:54:06.800 In fact, American atheists actually have a loose Christian moral structure, and that's a fact.

00:54:12.680 That's why—absolutely.

00:54:13.880 That's what we're talking about with cut-stem ideology or whatever, or politics or whatever.

00:54:18.500 I'm sorry, Dennis Prager, for getting the name wrong every single time.

00:54:21.680 Bill Maher's a great example.

00:54:23.180 The man who believes in Blackstone's formulation, who believes in free speech but can't tell you where it came from.

00:54:27.480 That doesn't exist in China.

00:54:28.980 Those values don't exist in China.

00:54:30.220 They have a completely different moral tradition.

00:54:31.960 Now, back to the point we were making, which is, why is there a tendency among conservative Christians to believe in responsibility, meritocracy, and planting trees whose shade you know you will never sit beneath?

00:54:43.440 And among atheists and agnostics in the United States, there's a tendency to say, wake up, do drugs, and masturbate, and give children porn.

00:54:49.820 I'd love to see that data.

00:54:52.600 It's—everywhere you go in the news—

00:54:54.960 You're setting a cultural phenomenon.

00:54:56.080 We have a cultural phenomenon where Emma Vigeland of The Majority Report came on this show and said that it is good that teachers, she believes, were giving books about scat to children.

00:55:06.140 I don't think it's that—

00:55:06.600 I'm like, how do you have The Majority Report, which I think is the 48th biggest live show on the internet, advocating for giving children kink porn?

00:55:17.280 And how is it that in schools across this country, it is atheists and agnostics that have been giving children kink porn and teaching them how to bang each other up the butt?

00:55:26.300 And in fact, in Chicago, a teacher gave children a book that explained to them how to use Grindr, 12-year-olds, to have anonymous gay sex with adult men.

00:55:34.720 The parents called the police on her.

00:55:36.400 I understand—that's an anecdote—I understand the church also had abuse.

00:55:40.940 The tendency among prominent conservative personalities—

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00:56:37.340 Supporting Donald Trump, supporting the Republican Party, or whatever it may be, as of the past decade or so,

00:56:42.660 leans towards, whoa, we need to do things that create a better society.

00:56:47.180 The other side, you have people like Chelsea Handler coming out and saying,

00:56:50.860 I wake up, I smoke pot, I masturbate, and I go to bed.

00:56:53.800 There is a destructive element associated with atheists and agnostics,

00:56:57.620 and a protective and creative element associated with the right.

00:57:01.260 It's not that Christians are perfect people.

00:57:04.040 There's a lot of evil, a lot of evil people.

00:57:05.860 Donald Trump is not a guy who got married and then had a handful of kids with one woman.

00:57:09.720 He had a bunch of baby mamas.

00:57:11.260 With all due respect, somehow, you know, not trying to be a dick,

00:57:14.400 he raised a bunch of really good kids.

00:57:15.960 The Trump family seems to be pretty great.

00:57:17.560 Still, not very virtuous.

00:57:19.260 Elon Musk, working with Donald Trump, not very virtuous.

00:57:21.800 But on the left, you have prominent, the prominent individuals are directly advocating

00:57:27.240 for things that are destructive to society in any capacity.

00:57:31.780 So are prominent Christians, and they've been doing it for a long time.

00:57:34.600 You're just saying that-

00:57:35.000 Which is why I'm saying the tendency today.

00:57:36.260 You're saying there are prominent atheists who have views that we don't like,

00:57:40.000 but I can do the same thing.

00:57:41.240 Not that we don't like.

00:57:41.760 There are prominent Christians-

00:57:42.940 Not that we don't like.

00:57:43.860 ...that are doing things that are destructive.

00:57:45.540 That are, that are, uh, uh, uh, uh, right.

00:57:47.820 Which is why I said there's a tendency, if you, if you are a Trump-supporting personality,

00:57:51.860 say you're Ashley St. Clair, and then you hook up with Elon Musk and have a baby out of wedlock,

00:57:56.400 she is getting mercilessly attacked.

00:57:59.140 Mercilessly.

00:57:59.720 I mean, they're leaking messages.

00:58:01.120 Former friends are posting her screenshots of chats they've had.

00:58:03.960 It is wrong.

00:58:05.220 What you did is wrong.

00:58:06.060 They are saying, you can't do this.

00:58:07.120 It's destructive.

00:58:07.780 It's bad.

00:58:08.580 You have done something wrong.

00:58:11.200 Liberals, tending to be atheists or otherwise, are saying, who cares?

00:58:14.920 Who cares if you have a dad?

00:58:16.320 Who, who, who, who, who cares?

00:58:17.820 Party, do drugs, don't have children, do whatever.

00:58:20.280 It is a fact that those things lead to higher crime.

00:58:22.780 This is one, this is one of the principal reasons Trump, people thought that would never win,

00:58:26.080 ended up winning.

00:58:26.700 Where's the data point that correlates to that?

00:58:28.620 Which, to which point?

00:58:29.460 That secularism leads to higher crime.

00:58:31.160 I have studies here.

00:58:31.920 Because that, that, that, as it turned out, there, there's lots of studies on it.

00:58:34.820 And, and the point I'm bringing up is, over the past 10 years, the, uh, over the past 30 years,

00:58:39.900 the policies implemented in major cities, almost every major city, run by Democrats, many of whom are not,

00:58:46.180 they're not completely, uh, uh, atheist, but overwhelmingly these cities are the places where

00:58:51.260 they're bubbling up atheism, where the prominent personalities, celebrities or otherwise are

00:58:55.220 anti-Christian, where the universities are anti-Christian.

00:58:58.140 These are where the policies are getting implemented, where we see prisoners are being

00:59:01.500 let out.

00:59:02.280 Violent criminals are being let to reoffend.

00:59:03.920 An ax murder was just released.

00:59:05.440 It became a huge story.

00:59:06.240 We're not seeing that rate of crime per capita in, uh, or even in its entirety in, uh, Christian

00:59:13.640 Republican, uh, led cities.

00:59:15.320 I think what you're, the point you're trying to make is that we see a different cultural

00:59:18.380 idea.

00:59:19.020 When Christians do horrible things all the time, absolutely.

00:59:23.780 Uh, no one is denying that.

00:59:25.520 Atheists do horrible things.

00:59:27.000 No one's denying that.

00:59:27.720 We're seeing different in terms of mentalities in these two groups.

00:59:30.680 One is promoting a culture of, uh, destructiveness is what you're trying to say.

00:59:34.600 And one is promoting a culture that is pro-sociality.

00:59:37.460 Do, when conservatives do something bad, they get attacked by their own group saying,

00:59:41.820 stop doing this.

00:59:42.620 It's destructive.

00:59:43.340 Meanwhile, Bill Maher and people on the left are not attacking.

00:59:46.560 They're saying, that's just normal hedonism.

00:59:47.820 It's great.

00:59:48.260 Wonderful.

00:59:48.780 And I think that the point you're trying to make is like, we see two different cultural

00:59:51.840 phenomenons coming out and you're trying to ask what the difference is.

00:59:54.720 That it is a tendency among the Christian right.

00:59:56.960 And it's largely Christian to say, Hey, you shouldn't be morbidly obese.

01:00:01.400 Stop eating garbage, start exercising and live a better life.

01:00:04.080 Be virtuous, be fruitful and multiply.

01:00:05.640 But they're more obese.

01:00:07.220 Statistically.

01:00:07.920 In rural areas.

01:00:09.000 However, what I'm talking about is the cultural phenomenon of body positivity.

01:00:12.320 So absolutely.

01:00:13.280 There are people who are amoral or bad.

01:00:15.340 In fact, it's actually, uh, it's a, it's an interesting bell curve.

01:00:18.520 The right has, is more likely to be fit and more likely to be fat than liberals.

01:00:22.440 Not according to the data points I've looked at.

01:00:24.260 Then look them up again.

01:00:25.100 The conservative right wing, especially the Christian right wing are way more obese in

01:00:30.980 almost every country.

01:00:31.740 Which is not what I said.

01:00:32.620 Okay.

01:00:32.860 Once again, it's a bell curve.

01:00:34.820 People on the right and particularly Christian conservatives are more likely to be fit and

01:00:39.300 more likely to be fat.

01:00:40.840 That means it's the extreme ends, right?

01:00:42.620 Bell curve.

01:00:43.280 So, uh, you will find that, uh, this was a big talking point in 2018 or so when the corporate

01:00:49.380 press kept running these stories saying working out will make you right wing.

01:00:52.140 And it is true that people who tend to exercise more and more start to become more right wing

01:00:57.400 and people who are already at a right wing, more conservative with moral, traditional values

01:01:01.660 are more likely to exercise.

01:01:03.720 But then you also do, it is true, find that there are more morbidly obese people at the

01:01:07.160 same time.

01:01:07.660 Meaning it's a wider bell curve than liberals.

01:01:09.860 On the liberal side, you will find they advocate for and they cherish and they advertise

01:01:14.560 morbid obesity to the point where they have the body positivity campaigns that conservatives

01:01:19.120 will roast and make fun of.

01:01:22.200 So there are lapsed moral individuals on the right, 100%, and there is social advocacy for

01:01:27.120 destructive behaviors on the left.

01:01:28.740 Or you could take a look at the transgender issue as well.

01:01:31.280 Advocating for children to sterilize themselves or for parents to sterilize their children is

01:01:34.480 not a Christian phenomenon.

01:01:36.100 And that's also, again, going to cause decreased fertility rates for people on the left, for the

01:01:41.220 atheist agnostic side of things.

01:01:43.780 Meanwhile, on the Christian side, you have high fertility rates, replacement population,

01:01:49.460 preventing mass migration of Islam coming in with their Sharia law, and then ruining

01:01:53.300 a lot of traditionally Christian countries.

01:01:55.820 Horrible.

01:01:56.300 Honestly, debate over.

01:01:58.940 Can a nation survive?

01:02:01.060 So debate is about, does birth rates then, that's the only factor?

01:02:03.880 I mean...

01:02:04.440 So that is such a...

01:02:05.580 As long as we have more kids and let them get raped, it's better off.

01:02:09.220 No one said that second part.

01:02:10.620 Birth rate is hardly an argumentation for why we need Christianity.

01:02:16.540 Nobody is for kids getting raped.

01:02:18.080 Like, no sane person trying to run a sound society is advocating for what you're claiming.

01:02:23.060 That's a straw man that makes no sense.

01:02:23.980 Simplify, like, kids without dads.

01:02:26.020 Are we better off just having more kids, 60 million more kids, but they don't have...

01:02:29.800 I don't think so.

01:02:30.320 They can't survive.

01:02:30.840 And the divorce rate inside the church is the same as the divorce rate outside of the

01:02:33.980 church, unless you're Catholic.

01:02:34.920 Catholics, surprisingly, stay married longer.

01:02:37.100 But in Protestant religions, they don't.

01:02:38.620 It's exactly the same inside Protestant religion than it is outside of Protestant religion.

01:02:42.780 To be fair, the prominent influencers that I was referring to, they tend to be Catholic.

01:02:47.500 Yeah, for sure.

01:02:48.220 That's interesting.

01:02:48.780 Catholics are Christians.

01:02:49.360 Catholics only have a 19% divorce rate.

01:02:51.020 Wow.

01:02:51.360 It's striking.

01:02:52.780 Protestants, over 51%.

01:02:54.160 So this is a Catholic versus Protestant debate.

01:02:56.480 Let's get the air off.

01:02:56.740 No, what I'm saying is, there are so many indicators in a society that we say are bad.

01:03:03.380 Like, birth rates, we want good birth rates.

01:03:05.220 Divorce rates, we want people to stay married longer.

01:03:06.880 Or, you know, having—

01:03:08.620 It's Reagan's fault.

01:03:10.900 Reagan's fault.

01:03:11.840 But what I'm saying is, there's so many indicators of what is good in society that

01:03:16.160 if we're just going to pick one and say, yeah, it's bad that birth rates are down.

01:03:19.800 Well, guess what?

01:03:20.320 You know, a lot of other countries have worked on this.

01:03:22.440 There have been countries that are now putting incentives in place to actually do tax cuts

01:03:27.060 and pay people to have families.

01:03:28.920 And we're starting to see payoffs for that.

01:03:30.880 But just introducing a religion into society doesn't fix the birth rate?

01:03:35.300 No.

01:03:35.660 We need more than that.

01:03:36.980 Yeah.

01:03:37.140 I think the issue for the West particularly is that you have—community is country.

01:03:42.780 And you had a community built upon a shared moral tradition, which is waning.

01:03:45.960 And it's resulting in, largely among the secular atheists, destructive ends.

01:03:52.400 That is, they have less kids.

01:03:53.900 They're more likely to do drugs.

01:03:55.180 They advocate—or I should say they advocate for these things, whether they're doing more.

01:03:59.180 Again, the right has a wider bell curve.

01:04:00.920 There's probably a bunch of people in Appalachia that are Christian, but they're seriously

01:04:04.300 harmed by the opioid addiction and things like that.

01:04:06.900 But the birth rate may as well trump literally any other argument.

01:04:12.800 If you don't have kids, you cease to exist.

01:04:15.040 And if we are looking at right now—I think we've gone over this number so many times.

01:04:19.260 It's like 1.85 among Christians in general.

01:04:22.000 Catholics are way higher.

01:04:23.400 And then you look at liberals, and it's down like 1.3.

01:04:26.380 Give that 20 years, and the voting trend in this country is going to be Christian.

01:04:29.700 In fact, with Muslims, with Islam on the rise, you are largely going to see, I think at a

01:04:36.340 certain point, maybe in the next 50 years, depending on technology, who knows, it's going

01:04:40.300 to be a Christian-Islam voting bloc, disagrees with each other on a lot of issues, but agrees

01:04:45.340 with each other on more than the liberals do, and the liberals just cease to exist.

01:04:48.180 What I'm concerned with is that if Christianity—I'm concerned with hypocrites, people that put

01:04:53.320 on the badge of Christianity, they say the words to the priests or whatever, and then

01:04:56.880 that's—they say, now I'm a Christian.

01:04:58.420 And then they go home, and they scream at their wife, like, I don't want these people

01:05:02.020 to get power.

01:05:03.160 That's what concerns me.

01:05:04.020 Like, more Christianity doesn't mean better society.

01:05:06.680 So I do think removing all of the idea of all the ideals could send us into a spiral,

01:05:11.740 downward spiral, but implementing more of it isn't necessarily the counter-just position.

01:05:17.220 You don't necessarily want to just shove it.

01:05:19.440 There's an interesting point to be made, and everything we've argued could be argued

01:05:22.800 that it's stronger in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, where they have such strong Islam, they beat

01:05:27.600 people to death, and arrest women who get raped.

01:05:30.000 And then you have order and structure and lots of babies.

01:05:32.700 And a friend of mine was telling me that she was walking around in—I think it was Dubai,

01:05:37.080 and they had gold chains.

01:05:38.820 There's a jewelry store, and they had $5,000 gold chains right up—nobody watching them,

01:05:44.100 just in front of the store.

01:05:45.160 And she was looking at them, and the guy running the store walked to the door, and she was like,

01:05:48.860 are you not worried someone's going to steal these?

01:05:50.700 And he's like, they'll cut their hands off.

01:05:52.960 No.

01:05:53.380 Yeah.

01:05:53.980 I mean, again, going back to your point, you don't want people that are pretending to be

01:05:58.200 Christian—you know, they're Christian on Sunday, and then six days a week, they're not.

01:06:01.600 A lot of the studies you'll see about lower levels of depression, more volunteering, more

01:06:06.640 support for democratic values, and of course higher birth rates correlate more with weekly

01:06:11.620 churchgoers than anything else.

01:06:14.120 So one of the most important things that John Compton is looking at right now is the rise

01:06:17.320 of religious nuns that you were talking about earlier, these people that claim spirituality

01:06:21.460 or religiosity, but they don't actually live—or they're part of a traditional Christian church.

01:06:27.380 When you start running the numbers comparing weekly churchgoers, people who actually belong

01:06:30.920 to denomination, with the religious nuns or the unaffiliated, we see stark differences.

01:06:36.140 We see more authoritarianism, more depression, less volunteering among the religious nuns than

01:06:41.080 people that are actually living out the Christianity, doing all the traditional aspects that you

01:06:46.600 must do to be a Christian.

01:06:47.920 Do you find that it's the community itself?

01:06:49.820 Well, it's tough to delineate here, but is it the Christianity, or is it the fact that

01:06:53.700 they're getting together with other families and communicating?

01:06:56.200 It's both.

01:06:56.820 It's both.

01:06:57.320 Because intrinsic religiosity is also very important in these studies.

01:07:00.580 In sociology, you'll see the religious orientation scale between intrinsic and extrinsic, and

01:07:05.320 sometimes you'll see quests in there as well.

01:07:06.980 But a lot of negative effects come from extrinsic religiosity, which is defined as you're part

01:07:11.860 of a religion because you want to be part of a larger group or it's your culture.

01:07:16.260 Intrinsic religiosity in sociology is understood as you're part of a religion because you believe

01:07:20.740 the core tenets of the faith.

01:07:22.100 And when you look at various studies, like these meta-analyses I have here, most of the

01:07:25.800 data points show strong correlations with intrinsic religiosity.

01:07:29.080 So it's not enough to just be a part of Christian because it's your cultural heritage.

01:07:33.060 You actually have to live out the religion to have the positive.

01:07:35.120 Here's the thing about believing a religion.

01:07:37.440 Now, this is what confused me, and I wish he was here at Russell Brand.

01:07:39.640 You guys probably know, within the last two years, year and a half, he's like, I'm a

01:07:42.960 Christian.

01:07:43.620 Jesus is my Lord and Savior.

01:07:44.900 Like, what the?

01:07:45.900 Where did you come from, dude?

01:07:47.840 What are you talking about even?

01:07:49.200 What do you even mean?

01:07:50.520 Apparently he got splashed with some water, and now he believes something new.

01:07:54.000 No, no, no.

01:07:54.380 Why do you believe it?

01:07:55.280 Hold on.

01:07:55.740 So these are people that say, I intrinsically believe, like, why?

01:07:59.720 Okay, he didn't.

01:08:01.260 He said that over a period of time, he came to believe the teachings of Christ and decided

01:08:05.100 then to get baptized.

01:08:06.020 Yeah, yeah.

01:08:06.960 I'm not saying he's right or wrong.

01:08:07.780 I'm saying you mix up the order there.

01:08:09.040 He made the, oh, okay.

01:08:10.100 He didn't just, like, one day someone splashed him in the face and went, whoa, I saw God.

01:08:12.940 He'd been slowly creeping towards it.

01:08:14.620 Why?

01:08:15.180 What is it about that belief?

01:08:17.160 Because you believe, when you have faith, you don't have evidence.

01:08:20.320 You have faith.

01:08:21.060 I mean, maybe you've got some weak evidence, but the reason it's faith and not proof is

01:08:24.860 because you don't have the correct evidence to call it real proof.

01:08:28.600 So, like, why do you have faith in that thing?

01:08:30.560 I think it's comforting for a lot of people.

01:08:32.880 Well, it's not just that.

01:08:34.320 I mean, it's correlated with lower levels of suicide, lower levels of depression, better

01:08:38.420 mental health.

01:08:38.960 I have a meta-analysis.

01:08:40.120 But I think you're agreeing.

01:08:41.940 I think you're agreeing.

01:08:42.700 It's comforting.

01:08:43.160 Well, I'm saying there are positives to being part of any religion.

01:08:47.320 Now, some religions, way less positives.

01:08:49.960 Like, Islam, way less positives.

01:08:52.280 Scientology.

01:08:52.720 Way on the bottom of the scale.

01:08:55.020 So, like, religion in general provides a lot of benefits, but we've also discovered

01:08:59.980 through different studies that some of those benefits can be had through social structures.

01:09:04.700 You know, just gathering in groups and having social community provides a lot of the same

01:09:08.800 benefits as going to church.

01:09:10.320 I agree.

01:09:10.880 I absolutely agree.

01:09:11.620 The problem is, is the current secular culture is not providing those communities the way

01:09:16.040 the traditional Christian culture has.

01:09:17.720 But you're suggesting that they won't, is what I'm saying.

01:09:19.940 You're suggesting that they'll never be able to do it.

01:09:21.740 Well, I'm not going to—have you heard of the God of the gaps argument?

01:09:25.080 That's a future humans of the gaps argument.

01:09:26.900 Just because future humans might come in, but that doesn't mean they actually will or

01:09:29.720 we have the solutions now.

01:09:31.000 Right, but you're suggesting that we don't have any data at all.

01:09:33.820 We actually do have data.

01:09:34.780 We've got lots of countries that used to be heavily religious that are no longer religious,

01:09:38.680 and they did develop structures.

01:09:40.320 So it's not like the society is going to collapse.

01:09:43.400 Human beings seek structure.

01:09:45.340 When one structure fails, we find new structures, or we make new structures.

01:09:48.380 And we could go back to the good structures of traditional Christianity and leave

01:09:51.660 the authoritarian secular European countries, which are, again, diminishing birth rates,

01:09:56.280 higher levels of authoritarianism, less volunteering, higher levels of depression.

01:10:00.540 I mean, again, there's a reason that when I was just debating Lawrence Krauss two weeks

01:10:03.880 ago, I brought up these factors because actual studies have shown that when it comes to secularism

01:10:08.340 and Christianity, Christianity is winning on all these factors in the actual studies.

01:10:12.380 But depression is just a red herring.

01:10:13.880 For example, they didn't even include seasonal depression in the DSM until 1987.

01:10:20.380 70% of all depression cases that are diagnosed today are seasonal depression, which means,

01:10:25.720 as people say, well, secularity has risen, but so has depression.

01:10:28.740 Well, guess what?

01:10:29.340 That's because they weren't actually diagnosing 70% of it.

01:10:32.180 So the correlation is spurious at best.

01:10:35.000 I just want to make a quick point.

01:10:36.700 I'm sorry for kind of deviating.

01:10:38.320 You know, because you were talking about, like, the global happiness index and all that stuff.

01:10:41.120 And the reason why this is probably not, there's no real easy argument I have.

01:10:45.680 It's very, it's an emotional argument.

01:10:46.980 The reason why I don't trust these international ranking systems is that for the entirety of

01:10:51.120 my life, I've seen them lie.

01:10:52.840 And from my experiences and from other data points, you can see that these things are not

01:10:57.600 correct.

01:10:58.280 One really is example that hits more closer to home for me is the press freedom index,

01:11:02.660 which claims that Canada is more press free than the United States, which is obviously false.

01:11:08.900 They will arrest you and the UK ranks higher than the US in the UK.

01:11:13.860 They will arrest you for criticizing Islam.

01:11:16.080 Oh, yeah.

01:11:16.520 And they claim in these global rankings, they, these, these international organizations of

01:11:21.180 great merit and that it's better there.

01:11:23.640 You can take a look at Sweden, which is number four, despite the fact that is a completely

01:11:28.340 homogenous country that sent government spooks to spy on me for daring point out that when

01:11:34.080 this is crazy, when we got escorted out of Rinkaby by, by the police who literally said,

01:11:38.780 Hey, look, they're going to start throwing stones at you because you have cameras.

01:11:41.820 We weren't filming anybody.

01:11:43.000 And we said, Oh, really?

01:11:44.120 The people there were, they were Somali children.

01:11:46.340 They were born in Sweden.

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01:13:10.960 I'm assuming things, Expressen, and these other, whatever the names of these newspapers

01:13:15.000 were, they thought we were with Swedish press.

01:13:17.020 The cops said they don't view Swedes as part of their country.

01:13:21.500 They don't view themselves as part of Swedes.

01:13:23.620 If they start throwing stones right now, we can't save you.

01:13:25.900 And I said, should we leave?

01:13:26.740 And they said, yes.

01:13:27.540 And I said, will you follow us?

01:13:28.760 He says, yes, we will.

01:13:29.600 And I said, okay, thank you.

01:13:31.100 Held up my camera and I filmed myself and them as they drove, they followed behind us

01:13:35.600 until we drove out of the plaza to a parking lot where our car was.

01:13:39.100 I posted that video, or actually I tweeted, this is what happened.

01:13:42.420 The entirety of the press in Sweden, all in unison argued, I lied, made up the story,

01:13:49.300 and the police said that story never happened.

01:13:51.740 Then I published the video and I said, take a look at this.

01:13:55.060 Then the entirety of the media all came out in lockstep and said, Tim Pool followed the

01:13:59.660 police.

01:14:00.560 He's lying.

01:14:01.480 And I said, here's a video of the police following me.

01:14:04.600 And they were like, he knew where they were going and walked in that direction.

01:14:08.500 And I said, towards my car, my phone, the journalists all started sharing my phone number

01:14:13.440 with each other.

01:14:14.260 So anyway, I digress.

01:14:15.720 Sweden is the fourth most free.

01:14:17.680 No, it isn't.

01:14:18.760 Well, apparently Greenland, who has no press, is number three.

01:14:22.180 You know, this is, I agree with that though, to be honest, if this is in 2020 or 2022, this

01:14:27.840 might actually be more accurate than we realize with the Biden regime stomping down on Twitter,

01:14:31.860 controlling mass media in the United, like we did not have a free press in 22, except

01:14:35.980 the ranking for the United States has dropped.

01:14:38.240 And the reports these organizations give out is that Donald Trump is curtailing press

01:14:42.200 freedoms, which he's not doing.

01:14:43.460 He's strengthening them.

01:14:44.660 Okay.

01:14:45.140 In the UK, which is ranked number 26, you will go to prison if you report the race of a criminal.

01:14:51.760 So they, in Sweden, very famously, there was a Afghan man who robbed a store and I can't

01:14:59.000 remember the name of the, I don't know if it was Afton Blotted or something, one of these

01:15:01.160 newspapers, pixelated his face and then changed the colors of the pixels to white so that you

01:15:06.460 couldn't tell.

01:15:06.960 I think it was a Somali guy.

01:15:08.160 They made it, they blurred his skin color.

01:15:10.420 They blurred his hands and his face and then changed the pixels so that everybody thought

01:15:14.320 it was a white person who did it.

01:15:15.420 I got it.

01:15:15.960 And that's number, and the UK is 26 and we're 45.

01:15:18.420 These international organizations that are telling you communism is good and we're free

01:15:22.640 and everyone's happy are lying to you.

01:15:24.060 Dude, I got to just, can we do a new religion where it's all the good stuff, the basic good

01:15:30.060 stuff.

01:15:30.520 We don't have to go sit in front of a cross, some murder tool, and we don't have to worship

01:15:35.100 some dude.

01:15:35.640 We can just enjoy the realities of the right way to be.

01:15:40.920 I wish.

01:15:41.740 I mean, I would always say like people often have ideas when we sit around like this and

01:15:46.340 go, it'd be really good if we could do X, Y, and Z.

01:15:47.980 And then we try to implement in society sort of like what the communists were trying to

01:15:51.380 do.

01:15:51.620 We just do this, we'll see this effect.

01:15:54.680 Human psychology is weird.

01:15:56.680 And oftentimes we don't understand why we do X, Y, and Z, and then we get the results

01:16:00.620 A, B, and C.

01:16:01.900 But I mean, oftentimes we have to just see what actually plays out in real world data.

01:16:05.700 Christianity wasn't, didn't just happen.

01:16:08.380 Constantine created it basically.

01:16:09.860 No, he didn't.

01:16:10.580 That's how I mean, as a religion, it was a bunch of people that believe Jesus for sure,

01:16:15.000 but that was, Jesus wasn't trying to get them to start a religion.

01:16:17.760 He just said what he believed.

01:16:18.960 He said, upon this rock, I build my church in Matthew 16.

01:16:22.180 He was definitely trying to start a church.

01:16:23.160 He was a Jew.

01:16:23.540 I mean, he was definitely a Jew and he was, maybe he was trying to reform Judaism, but

01:16:26.640 he wasn't trying to create a religion.

01:16:29.080 He was trying to just to teach people and be like, modernize Judaism.

01:16:33.060 And it explained like, well, maybe you can, you know, sow two types of crops in one garden

01:16:38.080 and it'll be all right.

01:16:38.780 I don't know if he actually said that, but like he was taking the Old Testament and like

01:16:41.760 filling in the gaps for modern age with new technology and being like, here's a lot of it.

01:16:45.720 I mean, he definitely was a reformer, but he was definitely calling all sorts of people

01:16:48.960 to him.

01:16:49.600 I mean, if you go to Matthew 28, he talks about going and preaching to the Gentiles and

01:16:53.300 doing this kind of stuff.

01:16:53.960 Then we see a play out in Acts.

01:16:55.560 I mean, the idea that Constantine created Christianity is a huge modern myth.

01:16:59.680 Peter J.

01:17:00.080 Lightheart wrote about this in his book, Defending Constantine.

01:17:02.260 He had nothing to do with the Bible.

01:17:03.920 He had nothing to do with doctrine.

01:17:05.500 In fact, oftentimes he just sort of signed off on things the bishops came to and their conclusions.

01:17:09.500 It's been a huge, huge idea within the past couple hundred years to sort of just blame

01:17:14.100 everything on Constantine.

01:17:15.140 I think if Constantine had wanted to stomp out Christianity, he probably could have, but

01:17:18.700 he chose to elevate it to the national level.

01:17:21.920 Whereas like the religions, they don't, they aren't really emergent.

01:17:27.880 I mean, they kind of are.

01:17:28.760 I know what you're saying.

01:17:29.380 Like human psychology, you can't just be like, now you're going to be a religion, but you kind

01:17:33.400 of can, if you, if you control the narrative machine.

01:17:35.920 And so without the authoritarian alteration of the scene, the scene, I don't know.

01:17:42.400 I mean, other than just being, becoming an obsessive prophet myself and just spouting

01:17:46.660 it and spouting it and alienating myself and then getting slaughtered by the, the, the

01:17:50.740 modern control structure like Jesus did, like, and then people in a hundred years will start

01:17:54.980 to create a religion out of me.

01:17:56.040 Like, I don't see a path and be like, please, can we do it guys?

01:17:59.080 Come on, let's all come together and create a, that doesn't seem to be the way.

01:18:01.960 To your point, you know, Christianity for the first 1500 years was really not a religion

01:18:07.660 of freedom.

01:18:08.300 It was a religion of repressive ideas.

01:18:10.640 Even in the book of Acts chapter 19, we see the first book burnings.

01:18:14.420 Under Athanasius, there were book burnings.

01:18:16.220 Under Constantine, there were book burnings.

01:18:17.940 Under Eusebius and John Chrysostom, all throughout Christian history, they were burning books that

01:18:22.660 they deemed heretical.

01:18:24.220 Like any books, but any books that they deemed heretical, they were burning them.

01:18:27.540 So the issue we need to understand, because book burning in and of itself is a, it's a

01:18:32.420 Godwin's law.

01:18:32.980 It's like the Nazis burned books.

01:18:34.260 The question is, what books were being burned and why?

01:18:36.880 Well, they list them.

01:18:37.840 In fact, there's a really good book on this.

01:18:39.740 Let me pull it up for you, where they go through Christian history.

01:18:43.700 In fact, in late antiquity, it's called...

01:18:46.240 Christianity, Book Burning and Censorship in Late Antiquity by Dirk Roman.

01:18:54.420 And in fact, some of those book burnings are even recorded in this firsthand right here,

01:18:59.100 edicts during Constantine's reign and just after Constantine reigns, where they say,

01:19:03.560 go out and collect these books and burn them.

01:19:06.400 A lot of them are philosophical works by the Greeks.

01:19:08.980 A lot of them are just heretical books by other Christians.

01:19:13.920 The idea of freedom of thought within Christianity is a modern concept.

01:19:19.840 And why is it a modern concept now, though?

01:19:21.600 I mean, it didn't just come out of nowhere.

01:19:23.240 People are getting crushed by it.

01:19:24.820 When a religion crushes you for 1,500 years, eventually you're like, hey, maybe we shouldn't

01:19:30.780 be doing this.

01:19:31.660 The same thing with Islam.

01:19:32.700 If Islam continues on the path that it's going right now, eventually their own adherents

01:19:37.360 will rebel against them.

01:19:38.520 They can't right now because they'll get killed.

01:19:40.380 That's not happening.

01:19:41.060 The revivalist movements in Islam are Salafi, and they're trying to go back to what Muhammad,

01:19:44.880 and they're actually more authoritarian.

01:19:46.600 They're actually far worse than a lot of regular Muslim-type folk are because they're

01:19:51.560 trying to go back.

01:19:52.360 The question we need to ask is, yes, Christians did horrible things, but if we're going on

01:19:55.580 what Tom Holland does in his book, Dominion, there were definitely revivalist movements.

01:19:59.740 He talks about Christianity being like a city underneath an earthquake line.

01:20:05.220 What are those things called?

01:20:05.960 Fault line?

01:20:06.300 Fault line, yeah.

01:20:07.000 He's like, yeah, they build these structures, but then oftentimes within Christianity, revivalist

01:20:11.660 movements shake things up and start things over.

01:20:13.720 So he talks about this throughout his book.

01:20:15.160 They did horrible things to the Cathars.

01:20:17.080 Revivalists come along, and they start to say, no, we need to get back to the teachings

01:20:19.880 of Jesus.

01:20:20.820 And you're saying 1,500 years.

01:20:22.440 Actually, again, you know, Brian Tierney, for example, in his book The Idea of Natural

01:20:25.900 Notes, this starts far earlier, and it's moving through the medieval period, this idea of

01:20:30.860 developing natural light, freedom of religion, freedom of thought.

01:20:34.060 It's coming up.

01:20:34.960 It's sort of developing.

01:20:36.120 And that's why Tom Holland says Christianity was like a depth charge.

01:20:38.720 It took a while for that charge to go off and start spreading.

01:20:41.560 People were fighting it as I was doing it.

01:20:43.340 But revivalist movement, Christianity had built in this structure of revivalist movement.

01:20:46.780 Was it the printing press?

01:20:49.260 Printing press helped a lot.

01:20:50.380 Because the internet is kind of like another staging ground for a new religion.

01:20:54.240 And I think there's a lot of cultures vying for that control right now.

01:20:58.860 I mean, I see a blending of science and God, like for sure.

01:21:02.320 There's something like we've developed technology that can witness some fluctuations in, like

01:21:06.780 I mentioned at the beginning of the show, the cosmic microwave background radiation is

01:21:10.320 no joke.

01:21:11.020 That is not a coincidence that it looks like a neural net in the brain, like a bunch of neurons

01:21:15.620 arcing through planetoids and star systems where you see these bright dots, which are

01:21:20.100 like neurons, and then they kind of fan out into what look like wisp.

01:21:23.700 I mean, at some point, pull it up and look at it and just stare at it and realize what

01:21:27.540 you're looking into.

01:21:28.120 Are you guys familiar with the Laborum Prohibitorum?

01:21:31.840 Negative.

01:21:32.380 It's an official list of banned books that started in the medieval period that didn't get

01:21:35.960 abolished until 1966 under Pope John.

01:21:39.740 And guess what?

01:21:40.260 There's a lot of science in there.

01:21:41.440 Nicholas Capernis, Johannes Kepler, Rene Descartes, Lafant, Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rousseau,

01:21:48.680 Victor Hugo, even novelists like John Milton, Spinoza's in there, John Locke's in there,

01:21:54.200 David Hume's in there.

01:21:55.440 This went on until the modern age.

01:21:56.900 My dad was alive when they finally abolished this list of banned books.

01:22:01.060 This is my problem with organized religion, is that if they try—

01:22:04.280 I've got a question.

01:22:04.860 He made a point I've got to address.

01:22:06.260 What is it?

01:22:06.980 Who banned them and where are they banned?

01:22:08.500 This is an official banning by the Catholic Church.

01:22:10.900 It started in the medieval period.

01:22:12.900 But banned from where?

01:22:14.100 From anyone who is found in possession of them.

01:22:16.520 So in 1960, what would happen if you had the book?

01:22:17.360 It started as part of the Inquisitions.

01:22:19.520 So in 1950, what would happen if you had a book?

01:22:21.520 Well, obviously, in the 1950s in the USA, they wouldn't have been able to do anything

01:22:25.540 to you other than excommunicate to you.

01:22:27.400 They can excommunicate you, yeah.

01:22:29.080 But in the medieval—

01:22:30.440 I read books more like church guidance on like, hey, this is a bad book.

01:22:32.600 It's basically it.

01:22:34.160 There's an atheist named Tim O'Neill who runs for History for Atheists.

01:22:36.700 He's addressed a lot of this.

01:22:37.720 These books were not being banned.

01:22:39.940 They're put on like a special list as if like, hey, we need more teachings on this

01:22:43.620 kind of thing.

01:22:44.160 So for example, Copernicus gets put on their app, but it says, you know, once there it's

01:22:48.840 corrections to certain things he says, then it can be removed.

01:22:51.500 And it is.

01:22:52.820 I can certainly accept that if you go back to, you know, Inquisition period, if you were

01:22:57.740 caught with one of these books, they were going to, you know, Inquisition you or whatever.

01:23:00.660 I'm just meaning like, in modern history, nobody was being, you know—

01:23:05.040 Excommunication is pretty nasty.

01:23:07.380 You get exiled from the church and you can never come back, or you got to appeal to the

01:23:11.280 Pope to get back in or whatever.

01:23:12.000 Yeah, but that's very different from being like flayed alive or something.

01:23:14.540 Well, first of all, think about that.

01:23:16.440 Like, that's—like, if atheism is true and there is no afterlife, I mean, like, that's

01:23:21.860 what the church is doing.

01:23:22.880 They're excommunicating people.

01:23:24.420 I mean, like, what—

01:23:26.800 Oh, there's—yeah, I mean, hey, you don't follow our teachings, so you're not part of

01:23:30.260 our teachings.

01:23:30.440 The thing, when you—if modern religion wants to ban books that are—this has scientific

01:23:36.320 nature that we're trying to talk about God scientifically, like, the last vestige of

01:23:40.420 control of this narrative machine of Christian—of the church itself—I'm not talking about

01:23:44.800 the Christian ideals.

01:23:45.560 I'm talking about the church that was built to control the idea.

01:23:48.620 If you don't follow their version of what God is, they lose control of you.

01:23:52.300 And so they want to stifle—at least this is the autocratic idea of what they could

01:23:57.840 do—is they'll stifle disseminating or dissenting opinions about what God is in order to control

01:24:03.480 people to join their herd.

01:24:05.360 And that—we don't need that anymore, man.

01:24:07.600 That is sickening, disgusting cult behavior.

01:24:10.660 You need to think for yourself and look out there and see what is.

01:24:14.900 That's what the Reformers said, the Protestant Reformers.

01:24:17.340 That's one of the things they were upset about.

01:24:18.460 They wanted more individuality and choice of religion, because Martin Luther's big thing

01:24:22.380 was like, you know, my salvation is dependent on me and God, not me and a mediator through

01:24:28.140 Rome, for example.

01:24:29.140 So this is what I was talking about earlier, what Tom Holland talks about, these Reformations

01:24:31.920 coming, the church gets too authoritarian, the earthquake happens, and then Reformers come

01:24:36.980 along.

01:24:38.160 Yeah, Martin Luther also advocated for burning down synagogues and repossessing the homes of

01:24:43.780 Jewish people.

01:24:44.920 I got a question for you.

01:24:46.560 Why doesn't—why does God make himself known only to some people?

01:24:50.420 That's a great question.

01:24:51.260 There's a whole philosophical subject called divine hiddenness, which philosophers debate,

01:24:56.140 and there's various reasons.

01:24:57.960 For one thing, a lot of the position of theologians is that—well, let me just quote C.S. Lewis.

01:25:03.540 He says,

01:25:03.900 "...honest rejection of Christ, however wrong, shall be forgiven and healed."

01:25:06.940 So one of the things he's saying, like, listen, if you are truly a non-resistant non-believer,

01:25:11.520 you're not going to be condemned necessarily because of that.

01:25:15.040 You may have a good excuse.

01:25:16.660 But the argument would be is that maybe God is making himself known to people throughout

01:25:21.820 their lives in various ways.

01:25:23.680 Maybe there isn't such a thing as non-resistant non-believers.

01:25:26.000 There's a whole philosophical field discussing that.

01:25:29.080 I know a guy.

01:25:30.140 It's a story I tell quite a bit.

01:25:31.500 I'll keep it simple.

01:25:32.280 He was a urban city atheist, hanging out, punk rock, cared for nothing, getting drunk.

01:25:40.840 And he was out in the woods one day with a bunch of friends, woke up hungover, went

01:25:44.400 to take a leak when he said that he felt a powerful, booming voice emerging from within

01:25:49.840 his own body.

01:25:51.300 And it was God saying, why are you doing this?

01:25:54.360 And he had a panic attack, started freaking out, looking around like, how am I hearing

01:25:58.420 this voice?

01:25:59.600 And he said, in San Bernardino, it asked him again, why are you doing this?

01:26:03.280 And he said, I don't know.

01:26:04.600 And it told him, you have to fix your life.

01:26:07.400 And right at that moment, he freaked out.

01:26:10.480 He said that he began reading and trying to find answers because he didn't know what happened.

01:26:14.040 And ultimately, it led him to the church where he cleaned up his life, stopped drinking,

01:26:18.640 opened a coffee shop, and now he's just a regular working class guy.

01:26:21.860 And he says, no one believes, I understand that you'll never believe me that this happened,

01:26:26.020 but it happened to me and that's all that matters because I believe it.

01:26:28.440 And so, I don't think the guy's crazy.

01:26:31.600 Maybe he was just crazy, I guess.

01:26:33.240 But there's a lot of stories like that.

01:26:34.540 A lot of stories of people saying they felt a shaking voice come from within their body.

01:26:38.800 And that's why I ask, assuming those stories are true, I don't know if they are.

01:26:41.700 If it is true, why would God only choose some people to say this to?

01:26:44.660 You get your subconscious, you'll have thoughts pop into your head.

01:26:47.100 Sometimes they pop into your entire body, your muscles, everything feels that subconscious

01:26:51.960 message.

01:26:52.560 And then that'll be a booming sound or something, a vision, you'll actually experience the image.

01:26:58.400 So, one thing we have to take into effect is God's omniscience.

01:27:00.940 Maybe he knows, for that guy, he needs to do this and it will help save him.

01:27:05.180 Maybe for some people, if he did that, they'd become a fundamentalist preacher and they'd

01:27:09.240 start attacking abortion clinics, for example, this kind of stuff.

01:27:11.900 Ian, are you hearing a voice?

01:27:13.480 Yes.

01:27:14.220 I like it at the moment.

01:27:14.840 So, I mean, like, maybe God can see all these possible timelines and he knows, you know,

01:27:18.940 I'll do this here, I'll do that there, and that will help.

01:27:22.180 Maybe for some people, he can see in all possible future timelines and go, it doesn't matter

01:27:25.920 if I did that, it would never help.

01:27:27.880 It would just make them worse, depending on their psychology.

01:27:30.400 So, God, we have to take into a factor when we look at divine hiddenness, the omniscience

01:27:34.060 of God and what he could know.

01:27:35.760 Given, this is something philosophers talk about, given his vast knowledge, we can't say that

01:27:40.320 he is not wrong for not doing that for every person, given that kind of knowledge.

01:27:43.440 In the Bible, he's not even omniscient.

01:27:45.500 Like, in Genesis 18, he doesn't know what's happening in Sodom.

01:27:49.140 In Genesis 22, he doesn't know if Abraham's going to actually fulfill it.

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01:29:16.440 The test that he's been given to sacrifice Isaac, in Deuteronomy 13, he specifically

01:29:21.200 says he's testing the Israelites to know if they will be faithful to him.

01:29:24.760 Over and over again, God just admits that he's not omniscient.

01:29:27.340 If I catch my daughter catching a cookie and I go, what are you doing?

01:29:30.720 Does that mean I don't know what I just saw?

01:29:32.260 Or is it my trying to have a relationship with her and getting her to confess?

01:29:35.440 He said, now I know in Genesis 22, meaning he didn't know prior.

01:29:39.320 The Hebrew word atah means now.

01:29:41.860 In this moment, I know.

01:29:43.320 Yeah, we can just look at that through speech act theory.

01:29:45.480 And God, when he's communicating and talking with people—

01:29:47.920 Right, words don't mean words, I'm sure.

01:29:49.520 Well, no, they don't.

01:29:50.380 That's what speech act theory is about.

01:29:51.600 If I said to you, you're standing on my foot, I'm not just saying, hey, look at that.

01:29:54.760 I'm actually asking you to get off my foot.

01:29:57.180 We often communicate in ways that are not literal.

01:29:59.680 This is the difference between locution and illocution.

01:30:01.800 Or actually, an interesting point you brought up with, you're standing on my foot.

01:30:04.840 He's on the other side of the room.

01:30:06.480 But we often say, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here.

01:30:09.460 Yeah, there you go.

01:30:10.740 Sure, but this is an idiom.

01:30:11.700 We know what idioms are.

01:30:12.620 And God can use idioms, too.

01:30:13.700 It communicates people.

01:30:14.060 Now I know is not an idiom.

01:30:15.920 It can definitely be.

01:30:16.740 This is a statement of fact.

01:30:18.540 I do think that these ancient gods, gods from the ancient text, were actually human men.

01:30:23.760 Yeah.

01:30:23.920 And they rolled into town.

01:30:25.060 They killed the old guy who called himself God.

01:30:27.840 And we're like, I'm God now.

01:30:29.140 And that's why you get this schizophrenic God and all these different stories, different personalities.

01:30:33.280 And then at some point, people tapped into the divine reality.

01:30:36.660 And they're like, oh, it can speak to you as well.

01:30:39.040 But the guys that would commandeer the title get written into the story.

01:30:43.860 Not as God, though.

01:30:45.240 These people often have names, and they're typically referred to as prophets.

01:30:48.100 So certainly if you want to argue that people were false prophets, I'd agree with you.

01:30:50.680 But the idea that someone heard a loud, crackling voice or something from a burning bush, your better argument is that it's allegory and not some guy hiding behind the rock shouting.

01:31:01.100 Moses?

01:31:01.640 I think he was tripping on that acacia bush.

01:31:04.300 Esther Homori is a professor.

01:31:07.080 She wrote a book called When Gods Were Men.

01:31:08.660 And if you read the ancient Babylonian and Akkadian literature, the gods are almost universally described as being manlike, which is why we find in the Bible that mankind is created in the image of God,

01:31:18.740 which is identical to what it says about the children of Adam.

01:31:21.540 Adam's children were made in the image of Adam.

01:31:24.100 Mankind and gods were more similar in ancient times than we like to believe.

01:31:28.080 This idea that God is transcendent, omniscient, and is pervading all things is a Greco-Roman idea.

01:31:33.860 Aliens.

01:31:34.740 It's definitely aliens.

01:31:35.900 It's definitely the aliens.

01:31:36.920 They built the pyramids.

01:31:37.820 But they're inside you.

01:31:39.020 If the argument is that there were people who are manlike and were made in their image, that is why you get ancient alien theorists.

01:31:45.360 You're not wrong.

01:31:46.260 If there were gods, why would they be perceived as gods?

01:31:48.740 They had the capabilities that man could not understand or comprehend.

01:31:52.200 They were floating around and flying through the air.

01:31:54.020 Or you think about like a gun.

01:31:56.920 Imagine having like a Derringer.

01:31:59.740 And you go to an ancient civilization and you point at someone and then there's a thundercrack and the person just drops dead.

01:32:05.520 They're like, he pointed at him, thundercracked in the sky, and he was dead.

01:32:09.180 Yeah, that was Zeus, dude.

01:32:10.180 They were like, he can throw lightning.

01:32:11.500 You're like, dude, he had an electrical spark.

01:32:13.140 No, he had a gun.

01:32:14.020 Yeah, he had something that could do electrical sparks.

01:32:15.980 He struck him with lightning.

01:32:16.840 No, he went bang.

01:32:17.600 Literally, he could throw lightning in the story.

01:32:19.820 I mean, he had electricity, obviously.

01:32:21.480 These ancient texts, someone comes in on a hot air balloon or a hang glider, you're going to be like, they have wings.

01:32:25.860 And if they land and they're like, I'm a god, you're going to be like, I believe you.

01:32:30.260 They're like super humans.

01:32:31.560 Or it was just stories they told with thunder.

01:32:33.700 Lord help us if in the future they're like, did you know they worshipped a god who was half man, half spider?

01:32:41.400 And he could climb walls and he fought crime.

01:32:43.260 And we'd be like, wow.

01:32:44.320 I mean, the important point is that all of that could be true.

01:32:47.320 We could all just pretend we're atheists here for the sake of the argument.

01:32:50.100 That doesn't change the fact that the Judeo-Christian tradition has given us most of the things that we hold sacred today.

01:32:55.460 I am a big proponent of whatever made you famous today, you don't have to keep doing that now in the future.

01:33:02.580 Like, Christianity got us to this point.

01:33:04.120 We don't need to keep focusing on 2,000 years ago when we can build something new.

01:33:09.360 But the problem is we're trying, and again, collapsing birth rates, more authoritarianism, higher levels of depression, lower volunteering and charity work.

01:33:17.140 The attempt to build something, as you were talking about, the cut stem thing, cutting the flower off, the flower is dying before our eyes.

01:33:24.280 So this idea that we can just keep having the nice stuff we like in the West without the Christian foundations showing before our eyes in real time is not working.

01:33:31.960 Why is giving the charity such an important thing?

01:33:33.760 Because as it turns out, secular charities are actually quite popular.

01:33:36.720 They're just a little bit below non-secular charities, but I'm trying to figure out why that's the measuring point we need to be aiming at.

01:33:42.840 I think all the charities are fake, by the way.

01:33:44.140 Yeah, I'm trying to figure out why half these charities we wouldn't need if we had a better government system.

01:33:49.920 Oh, I completely disagree.

01:33:51.820 Yeah, government's horrible at providing for people.

01:33:53.620 What I'm suggesting is if we had proper structures in the United States on both the federal and the state and the local level that helped people to actually survive, we wouldn't need to be giving handouts to people.

01:34:04.680 That's impossible.

01:34:05.600 Well, when future humans, this future humans of the gaps argument, it actually works, then we can have a discussion, but right now it isn't.

01:34:11.040 Well, the issue with government is that it is quite literally impossible for a single entity to take care of literally everybody because of conflicting issues.

01:34:17.760 No, I'm not saying the government has to take care of you.

01:34:19.560 What I'm saying is that in a thriving society, charity becomes less important because you have less people that need the charity.

01:34:27.060 So I'm trying to figure out—I'd rather prevent the need for charity than to say that charitable giving is the goal.

01:34:32.520 I disagree that's less important.

01:34:34.340 I mean, that seems to be more of a predictive, more opinion.

01:34:39.160 If you go back 200 years, nobody would need a—like, nobody talked about having therapists, or maybe not 200 years, but a couple hundred years.

01:34:44.140 Like, there's no therapists.

01:34:45.720 You don't need organizations to provide mental health care for medieval warriors who fought.

01:34:50.560 They came back and they were just, you know, damaged.

01:34:52.980 And so we've actually increased charities and increased the perception of the need for them over time with prosperity and technology.

01:34:59.640 No, I'm not saying we don't need them.

01:35:02.020 What I'm saying is I'd rather attack the root causes that the charities are giving to.

01:35:06.520 That's what I think is the answer.

01:35:07.700 My point is there will always be some perceived reason to provide some kind of charity to somebody else.

01:35:12.560 No, I'm not disagreeing with that.

01:35:14.120 Yeah.

01:35:14.440 So it's never going to go away.

01:35:15.420 It's only ever going to expand.

01:35:17.620 And government can't address these things.

01:35:18.780 You were saying, like, that the cut stem, the cut flower, is, like, the Christian framework that if it's gone and it's, like, it's dying on the stem.

01:35:27.420 The roots of the flower are the Christian tradition and the flower is America.

01:35:30.620 The reason I think that, like, birth rates are declining is PFAS.

01:35:34.720 These chemicals in the food, in the groundwater, the pharmaceuticals, the azo dyes, all this crazy toxin has made people mute.

01:35:44.040 Their minds are like, where's the love?

01:35:46.640 Maybe, maybe, but the actual data correlation we have is that young people are no longer going into public spaces, largely due to the Internet.

01:35:56.740 So one of the reasons why – and this is why I think religion plays a role in this.

01:36:01.540 For your typical urban liberal, they may actually be from a Christian family or whatever, but they're lapsed.

01:36:08.020 They don't go to church.

01:36:08.480 They don't do any of these things.

01:36:09.520 Young men aren't going outside anymore.

01:36:10.920 However, virginity among men under the age of 30 has skyrocketed some, like, 20 or 30 percent.

01:36:17.060 Even among women, it's going up.

01:36:19.000 Now, Seamus hilariously said, based.

01:36:21.060 And I said, no, Seamus, 20-year-old men, by your standard, should be married with children.

01:36:25.020 And he was like, oh, yeah.

01:36:26.080 Like, so it is not good that young men are not having families.

01:36:28.100 However, there is a moral tradition aligned with Christianity, largely Catholicism, as you pointed out, where they have a duty not just to themselves but to a shared God they both see to have family.

01:36:39.920 So they are actually getting married and having kids, whereas the kid who grows up in the city is sitting around playing, you know, scrolling TikTok all day and not going outside.

01:36:47.260 That's why fertility rate is declining.

01:36:48.840 Can we – like, is it like –

01:36:50.120 Not the only reason.

01:36:50.720 People that adhere to a cult, and, you know, it's a neutral term, cult.

01:36:54.740 Every religion is a cult.

01:36:55.920 Every, you know, group, think, whatever.

01:36:59.200 Bunch of followers.

01:37:00.480 Now, no offense.

01:37:01.140 Everyone's a leader and a follower in their own way.

01:37:02.880 But to choose to follow a group of ideas, a group think.

01:37:07.740 Do we need followers to thrive in a society?

01:37:10.580 Do we need, like, a 0.0001 percent of the society as leaders are the leaders, and then everyone else needs to be a follower that doesn't think too critically?

01:37:17.960 Yes.

01:37:19.140 And the problem is, I think, in America, there is this perception that being a follower is a bad thing, and it's offensive to call someone a follower, and everyone has to be a leader.

01:37:27.840 When everyone's a leader, everybody's running around in random directions.

01:37:30.800 The example I like to give to people is imagine the king standing on the front line of his army about to engage in a battle to save their homeland.

01:37:39.200 Each and every one of those men standing shoulder to shoulder with their spears or swords or whatever is a follower of the king.

01:37:44.600 But they are also the most noble, willing to sacrifice themselves for something they care about and believe in to preserve a community.

01:37:50.260 The king, as the leader, stands in front of them.

01:37:52.360 I don't respect modern leaders who hide behind walls and cower in their bunkers and basements.

01:37:56.020 But the traditional value of what it means to be a leader is, you were leading the charge.

01:38:01.280 You told everybody, I would never command you to do that which I would not do myself.

01:38:04.980 The king would jump on his horse and scream charge and run forward with his followers behind him.

01:38:09.620 That king had no power were it not for his followers who believed in him and were willing to sacrifice everything for something they believed in.

01:38:14.820 That's what it truly means to have a good leader and good followers.

01:38:18.520 And it's entirely respectable, in my view, that there are people who simply want to be followers.

01:38:22.840 It's entirely respectable there are people who want to be leaders.

01:38:24.780 It is not respectable that everybody thinks they're the main character.

01:38:27.900 Sometimes you're not.

01:38:29.200 Sometimes you're never going to be the president.

01:38:30.880 You're never going to be a billionaire.

01:38:32.020 Your purpose is where you are.

01:38:33.660 And sometimes that's okay.

01:38:35.080 Sometimes you should strive for more.

01:38:36.640 Sometimes you should recognize you should stop striving for more and just be what you're best at.

01:38:40.320 That's what I call a product of Disney culture.

01:38:42.000 We all need to be special, someone who has a romantic or venture somewhere out there.

01:38:46.740 And everyone's trying to be that main character, as you mentioned right now.

01:38:51.200 It just doesn't work.

01:38:52.900 It just seems like it's a result.

01:38:54.320 It could be a result of Nietzsche and Ubermesh thinking we all need to be this Superman kind of person.

01:38:58.720 We are all the main character of our own story.

01:39:01.880 We're all seeing it first person.

01:39:04.260 And that is an empowering realization is that you are the main creator of your reality.

01:39:09.140 Stuff is happening around you.

01:39:10.360 You are in control of this business.

01:39:12.700 But not—

01:39:13.500 To what point, though?

01:39:14.200 Because you need people to kind of calm down this—what do you call it, I guess, aggression or this—

01:39:20.880 But, like, think about what you're saying there.

01:39:23.320 Yeah, that is an issue.

01:39:24.520 But look at what happens in Christianity.

01:39:25.940 You say, God, you come into my heart.

01:39:28.460 You become the main character, and I follow you.

01:39:30.420 And Christ says, they hated me.

01:39:32.900 They're going to hate you.

01:39:33.520 They're going to persecute you for my sake.

01:39:34.900 You're not going to be above your master.

01:39:36.500 You're going to go through hardship like I'm going to go through hardship for you.

01:39:39.040 So you're talking about this idea of a leader who—the king who goes out and leads his army.

01:39:43.460 We see in Christianity that mentality.

01:39:45.100 Jesus goes to the cross for us.

01:39:46.440 He suffers for us.

01:39:47.500 Therefore, we can go out and suffer and do good work.

01:39:49.320 So Christianity has that built-in mechanism in there that's going to allow people to say,

01:39:53.120 yes, I will go and suffer for the king.

01:39:54.900 Yes, it has a built-in mechanism for people to be followers, which does concern me if it just disappears for a moment.

01:40:01.780 Hitler.

01:40:02.940 Trump.

01:40:03.740 Random demagogue appears, and Trump's a great guy.

01:40:06.140 I love him.

01:40:06.540 But, you know, powerful speaker.

01:40:09.540 People will be like, I need to follow something, someone, something more came along that I can follow now.

01:40:15.380 And you're like, whoa, bro, are you addicted to following?

01:40:17.720 Yeah, I'm actually in agreement with Tim here.

01:40:19.980 I don't think being a follower is a bad thing.

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01:41:45.100 I think there's a huge segment of the population that don't feel comfortable being leaders.

01:41:50.260 They feel comfortable as being followers.

01:41:52.480 I think the problem is sometimes they don't know how to choose what to follow,

01:41:56.460 and they can fall prey to following something that's actually dangerous for them.

01:42:00.860 And we've seen that all throughout history in every country.

01:42:02.840 Which is Ian's point, Nazism, which I agree.

01:42:05.780 Sometimes there are evil people that amass dangerous amounts of power.

01:42:08.940 Can you make a religion that creates leaders?

01:42:11.720 Not everybody should be a leader.

01:42:13.620 And there's nothing wrong with that.

01:42:14.700 Like, a buddy of mine told me a long time ago, he never, he didn't aspire to perceived greatness.

01:42:21.280 He's like, I'm just happy working my 9 to 5.

01:42:23.420 Why?

01:42:23.980 Because I do my thing, I'm on my own business, and my mind is free.

01:42:27.120 While I'm doing this menial task and this menial job where someone else is stressed,

01:42:30.640 he's like, I have my hours where I have to work.

01:42:32.840 While I'm working, I'm thinking about what I want to do after work.

01:42:35.220 I'm thinking about what I want to do with my family.

01:42:37.120 And then once I'm done with work, me and my family go out to dinner, and we have a good time.

01:42:40.160 We smile and laugh.

01:42:40.980 My boss, he's doing paperwork all night.

01:42:43.360 He's like, that's for him.

01:42:44.460 He wants to do that more power to him.

01:42:46.080 It's not for me.

01:42:46.920 And I was like, you know, it's actually kind of informed my view on these things.

01:42:51.880 Some people just say, hey, man, you want to work 16-hour days 24-7 and run a business and make the money?

01:42:58.400 Tell me what you need me to do, and I'll do what I can.

01:43:00.620 I'm going to spend time with my family for the most part.

01:43:02.220 So what do we need?

01:43:02.820 We need some more leaders?

01:43:04.160 Because I think they said the middle class has been, there's been a disparity between the wealth.

01:43:08.120 You know, a lot of poor, a lot of rich now.

01:43:10.020 Less middle class.

01:43:10.760 Maybe if we make more leaders, but not too many more, maybe like 7% more leaders in society, we'll create a middle class of business owners, people that are willing to like—

01:43:18.600 I think we need incentivization.

01:43:21.720 It's very difficult for people to want to be leaders.

01:43:24.760 Some of them have the capacity, but they don't have the means.

01:43:28.220 Like, there's so many people that could actually be leading something, but they don't have—like, they can't leave their 9 to 5, or they've got family members they have to tend to, and it's very difficult for them to get training.

01:43:39.680 So, for example, you know, I went to seminary.

01:43:43.100 I got an actual seminary education.

01:43:45.680 The number of pastors that I've worked with when I was a Christian that couldn't afford to leave their actual work and family life to go get that education is very high.

01:43:53.980 There's a high percentage of pastors with no education, not because they don't want it, but because they can't afford to leave what they're doing and actually go get it.

01:44:02.580 And that's the hardest part in society, is when you want to be a leader, it takes education and takes commitment,

01:44:07.220 and it's hard to put down your other commitments to go do that thing.

01:44:11.420 But I don't know how we incentivize it other than, like, scholarships, tax breaks, things like that.

01:44:17.460 Yeah, it's like kind of crossing a class system.

01:44:19.820 Right.

01:44:21.420 Yeah, and I mean, the good thing is a lot of charities have been trying to help out with that,

01:44:25.120 and that's another good thing we see in society is the fact that charity work is, you know, pushing these ideas like,

01:44:30.520 we'll give you money to go do this kind of thing, or we'll help you out with that.

01:44:33.720 You know, so those are always very important, and we need those in society.

01:44:36.680 Looking at the world, populationreview.com, it's the happiness index.

01:44:43.060 I don't know that I necessarily see any correlation between happiness in a nation other than wealth.

01:44:49.440 And I think that's the leading predictor.

01:44:51.160 Right, probably makes sense.

01:44:52.120 And I think they actually say that it's gross domestic product and social support, life expectancy,

01:44:57.320 and freedom to make your own life choices is towards the bottom of the list.

01:45:01.680 Generosity is at the bottom of the list.

01:45:03.300 It really just is, can I afford food and shelter for my family?

01:45:06.760 And then I'm good, and then I'm going to sit down, I'm going to watch TV, and not got to worry about anything else.

01:45:10.480 Can you expect to be healthy?

01:45:11.760 Can you get your needs met?

01:45:13.420 Those are the things that really make people happy.

01:45:15.780 And do you have social connections that bring meaning to your life?

01:45:19.340 And North Korea is considered to be very happy.

01:45:24.020 Oh, yeah, and they're so trustworthy over there.

01:45:25.640 North Korea is unrated.

01:45:27.160 Well, the thing of it is, there are some countries where if they're given a questionnaire, they only have the option to answer one way.

01:45:33.340 Right.

01:45:33.760 I mean, that's the case.

01:45:35.400 Well, even like sometimes people just say they're happy.

01:45:37.840 I mean, I've known people who have committed suicide, and I ask, are you doing okay?

01:45:42.460 And it's like, yeah, I'm doing fine.

01:45:43.440 I'll be all right.

01:45:44.240 And then a week later, they're gone.

01:45:46.100 But that's the thing about depression that people need to understand.

01:45:48.380 And it's not always – people assume depression is like you're in debilitating pain.

01:45:53.460 But depression for a lot of people and a lot of the time is literally just boredom.

01:45:57.460 Yeah.

01:45:57.800 It's people who say like, if I wake up, what am I doing?

01:46:01.320 Yeah, like a lack of fulfillment.

01:46:02.920 It's different than unhappiness.

01:46:04.320 It is.

01:46:04.720 Sadness.

01:46:05.180 It's like, what's the point anyway?

01:46:07.080 I don't really need to be here anymore.

01:46:08.400 I figured it out or I got it.

01:46:09.320 You don't feel like – people will say the things that I used to enjoy doing, I don't enjoy doing anymore.

01:46:15.460 They're not sad.

01:46:16.300 They're not angry.

01:46:16.820 They're not crying.

01:46:17.420 They're just like, I don't know, riding my bike seems boring.

01:46:20.480 I just don't want to do it.

01:46:21.260 And they end up doing nothing, and this is a big sign of depression.

01:46:25.740 That's why they always say check on your friends because if they're not coming to hang out, you might text them and they'll be like, no, I'm cool.

01:46:30.600 I'm chilling watching TV.

01:46:31.620 They might be depressed.

01:46:32.740 They're not working towards anything, not doing anything.

01:46:35.220 I do think obviously though it doesn't matter which religion, but people who have a religion, particularly Abrahamic, are less likely.

01:46:43.780 I don't know if it's true.

01:46:44.920 It is.

01:46:45.480 But they fear you can't kill yourself.

01:46:48.260 You'll be tortured for all eternity.

01:46:49.720 It's a mortal sin.

01:46:50.540 And it's like weekly they're reminded of that.

01:46:52.160 I mean, getting out of the house and going somewhere every week is a big, big shakeup, whether it's for church or a job.

01:46:59.520 Like this show is kind of like my church.

01:47:01.120 I mean, I get out of the house.

01:47:02.200 I sit at home.

01:47:03.340 I work from home.

01:47:04.040 I spend so much time at home.

01:47:05.500 Walking is great.

01:47:06.480 Yeah.

01:47:06.820 I mean, Christians often feel it's their duty to go to church every week even when they don't want to.

01:47:13.600 I can't tell many times I've woken up on a Sunday morning and just been exhausted, and I force myself to go, and it's really good for mental health.

01:47:20.300 It's very good for dealing with depression, and unfortunately, like secular culture just hasn't come up with any sort of replacement for that for going forward at this point.

01:47:29.220 What?

01:47:29.620 Going to the gym has huge impacts on depression rates.

01:47:32.320 It's true, but nobody goes to the gym.

01:47:35.320 I know.

01:47:36.180 People are still reluctant to do it, but it's had a surprisingly large correlation with mental well-being.

01:47:42.080 Yeah, definitely not.

01:47:42.680 You just figured it out.

01:47:44.040 I'm going to make a skateboarding religion.

01:47:47.080 That's how we bring skateboarding back, get people in shape.

01:47:49.620 Get a big skateboard on the wall, and everyone will just like fucking.

01:47:52.280 And be like, you will find, and I'm half joking when I say this, life lessons in skateboarding are invaluable.

01:47:58.880 Yeah, there was a church I went to.

01:48:00.360 They actually put a gym in the basement, and they made, hey, every week we're going to work out Sunday morning early.

01:48:07.480 So the men got there early.

01:48:09.060 The kids would be upstairs playing.

01:48:10.320 The women would be talking, and that's one of the things they did.

01:48:13.220 There's two big lessons.

01:48:14.620 Skateboarding has many lessons, and the first is on a halfpipe.

01:48:19.060 When you drop in, meaning you stand up top, and then you lean in and go down the ramp, every single person is terrified to do it the first time, without question.

01:48:27.120 Because how do you maneuver your body in such a way?

01:48:29.800 And I'd say, I don't know, the majority of people will fall the first time.

01:48:33.360 So you bring a kid to the ramp, and they're terrified to do it, and you say, you have no choice.

01:48:38.560 There is only the failure you will experience and the pain of dropping in, and nothing else.

01:48:44.100 Ask yourself if you really want this for your life.

01:48:46.240 And then kids will do it.

01:48:48.080 Typically, they'll fall, land on their knees, roll, get up, and be like, that didn't hurt so bad.

01:48:51.760 Let me try it again.

01:48:53.060 And that's a lesson about having to do difficult things, knowing that you may experience pain.

01:48:57.120 The other thing about it is there's no cheating.

01:48:59.320 You can't cheat skateboarding.

01:49:00.800 You're competing against yourself.

01:49:02.220 You can lie to your friends and say, yeah, I did a, I tray flipped that stair set, and they'll be like, where's the video?

01:49:07.560 And you'll be like, oh, I didn't film it.

01:49:08.780 And they'll be like, nice try, dude.

01:49:09.600 There's no cheating.

01:49:10.700 It is all about every day improving yourself.

01:49:13.920 So that's what we're going to do.

01:49:14.840 We're going to make a religion.

01:49:16.680 You know, we're going to put a big skateboard on the wall, and we're going to be like, this is your path to enlightenment.

01:49:19.960 You've got to come and do kickflips.

01:49:22.280 Ian's into it.

01:49:23.000 I'm thinking about playing music.

01:49:24.080 I was thinking about playing music as my church, like the way your body vibrates.

01:49:27.460 Well, in all seriousness, joking aside, you made a great point that...

01:49:32.220 And I brought this up.

01:49:33.540 I bring this up quite a bit.

01:49:34.360 As community, as country, we as a nation, whether it's Christianity or otherwise, we used to, every week, meet with everyone in the town.

01:49:41.420 Not literally everybody, but most people.

01:49:43.020 And there was effectively a community meeting in the church.

01:49:46.780 We don't do that anymore.

01:49:48.380 Now there's no community.

01:49:49.760 People don't even know who their neighbors are.

01:49:51.140 Like, when was the last time you knocked on your neighbor's door and asked for a cup of sugar or something?

01:49:54.040 It's like, this doesn't happen.

01:49:55.220 Honestly, when was the last time you knocked on your neighbor's door and asked them how they were doing?

01:49:58.360 Luke Rutkowski made a really great video 13 years ago where he said every day he goes on the train and there's millions of people on the New York subway and they never talk to each other.

01:50:08.200 In fact, they go to great lengths to not interact with each other.

01:50:10.840 They won't look each other in the eyes.

01:50:12.320 So one day I decided, I'm just going to start talking to these people.

01:50:15.100 And then he asked a bunch of questions about how they feel, how they feel about government and things like that.

01:50:19.020 But that's a really interesting point that in a major city like New York, people intentionally go out of their way to try and avoid talking to their neighbors.

01:50:26.600 I didn't at first.

01:50:27.640 I moved there and I was very much Midwest, come from Ohio.

01:50:30.720 Eye contact, super cool.

01:50:32.360 But then after like a couple months of tens of thousands of people every day in my face over and over, I was just like, get out of my way.

01:50:40.200 It would be like a woman would be struggling to get down the steps and she's got her bags and taking up three lanes, walking down.

01:50:46.540 So I just push her aside.

01:50:47.720 I'm like, I just pushed a woman.

01:50:49.220 What am I, what am I like?

01:50:50.460 Like, that's what happened.

01:50:51.220 That was like six months, six or seven months.

01:50:53.220 The evolution of being surrounded by, it's weird to be alone in a group of people, to feel like there's even more people around, but I feel even more alone.

01:51:02.580 That's what I felt like in New York City a lot of times.

01:51:04.660 You need to force yourself to interact, but no one, people don't, they don't want to stop and talk because they're all going somewhere.

01:51:09.360 A lot of them are like, don't, people don't just stand around on the corner hanging out in New York.

01:51:13.100 It's very rare, maybe on their front stoop, but if someone's on the street walking, they're going somewhere.

01:51:17.140 They don't want to stop.

01:51:18.400 And it was just culture shock.

01:51:19.740 Do you know your neighbor's names?

01:51:21.680 Today?

01:51:22.160 Yeah.

01:51:22.920 I know one of them personally, but I already knew him before he moved in.

01:51:25.880 But other than that, no, I met one of them once and I'm in a somewhat of a rural, I'm in a pretty rural area, but no, no, I don't know any of them.

01:51:33.060 Yeah, that's just unfortunate, like how, I think a lot of you think about internet, it just completely divided us from the people around us.

01:51:41.580 And I think the one tether we have is going to church weekly, the Americans that do that, because you're forced to talk to people at church.

01:51:49.100 It's very rare for me to go to a church and no one ever talks to me.

01:51:52.660 Like, you almost feel like required because you want to make them welcome.

01:51:56.340 You're in the presence of God.

01:51:57.380 You better make people welcome.

01:51:58.840 And so there's that really good incentive holding us together at this point that we just have sort of lost the more the internet comes out.

01:52:06.760 I got to say, you know, I was hanging out with Seamus, I think this was last year or the year before maybe, and he went to – Seamus was going to a Latin mass, which is – that's top-tier stuff, man.

01:52:17.440 You know, they're speaking Latin.

01:52:18.740 That's the real abracadabra stuff there.

01:52:20.580 That's as deep as you can get, man.

01:52:22.060 And I showed up with my brother after the mess was over.

01:52:25.320 Just immediately, Seamus, we're going to hang out and grab food.

01:52:27.600 And as everyone's getting out, I see a bunch of well-mannered individuals wearing nice clothing.

01:52:33.280 Not like they're super dressed up, but they're Sunday's best.

01:52:35.540 And the little kids that were playing were also dressed very well.

01:52:38.620 And I was like, you know, it's kind of crazy to look at this because you contrast this with, like, a public school system being in Chicago.

01:52:47.900 Yeah.

01:52:48.340 When, like, the parents showed up, they're slovenly – not all of them.

01:52:52.540 I'm not trying to rag on everybody, poor people or whatever.

01:52:54.780 But dejected, unkempt, some doing drugs.

01:52:58.800 Like, that's inner city stuff.

01:53:00.340 And I was just like, we're in a much poorer area where this church is.

01:53:04.820 Much, much poorer.

01:53:05.900 But everyone here is trying their best and dressing up and trying to be nice.

01:53:09.040 And I'm like, I can't speak for anything else outside of that.

01:53:11.500 I can, but we're not going to.

01:53:12.520 I want to say just these two scenarios where when I see kids get out of, like, an inner city daycare with their family and you can see that people don't know each other, they don't talk to each other, they're not dressed well, they're not taking care of themselves, some are sick.

01:53:24.240 And then I see this church get out and everyone's trying to maintain some level of, like, you know, manners or cleanliness.

01:53:32.460 It's objectively better.

01:53:35.440 I think you scale that up to the larger society and I think you see the bigger point.

01:53:39.320 I would get – this is more personal, but, like, just bored at churches.

01:53:43.540 One, because I didn't believe what they were telling me.

01:53:45.540 I'm skeptical.

01:53:46.100 And I would have to wait for it to be done for, like, two hours.

01:53:50.820 That is teaching you – even if you're bored, it's teaching you self-control.

01:53:54.040 You're learning a virtue there just by saying, I got to sit through this.

01:53:57.300 I have to just control myself instead of getting up and leaving.

01:53:59.520 But I could be bored at home.

01:54:01.040 Like, why would I go to a place to do it if I don't have to?

01:54:03.660 Well, I think it shows that Ian lacked the discipline.

01:54:06.120 I don't mean that disrespectfully.

01:54:07.000 I mean, for young people, it's like, because sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.

01:54:12.140 Yeah, but that doesn't mean that doing things you don't want to do is inherently good.

01:54:16.620 Like, sometimes there are things you don't want to do that you shouldn't do.

01:54:19.240 And they're pointless and boring and useless for you.

01:54:21.600 And, like, it's always very strange.

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01:55:47.460 Community meeting, whether it's religious or otherwise, once a week is an extremely...

01:55:50.020 That's what I loved.

01:55:50.960 The community meeting is what I like.

01:55:52.720 So I got into the theater when I was like 15, and that was kind of like...

01:55:56.160 I mean, my personality blossomed after that level of communication, constant communication with humans.

01:56:02.580 Let me put it this way.

01:56:03.560 There's the meme that I've been citing, and you know what?

01:56:06.380 Screw it.

01:56:06.600 We'll get a little crass.

01:56:08.060 It's a funny meme.

01:56:08.620 It's from 4CN, where someone, it says like, you know, 1994, dude says he wants to bang a toaster.

01:56:15.620 Guy smacks him on the side of the head and says, knock it off, weirdo.

01:56:19.280 2024, guy says he wants to bang a toaster, goes online, finds community of people who bang toasters, and they all cheer him on.

01:56:24.860 And that's the difference between back then and now.

01:56:26.820 So if community was built around Christian moral teachings at a church where it's like, honor thy father and thy mother, obviously not slavery or anything like that.

01:56:35.320 You go to church, no one's telling you to do that.

01:56:37.140 Then whatever deviant behaviors an individual might have, like they are attracted to toasters, is constantly repressed and pushed aside for something substantially more socially acceptable and basic, like, you know, don't covet thy neighbor's things or wife or whatever.

01:56:51.500 But now that community has largely become internet-based, you have quite literally people who have weird mental disorders, like they eat things that are not food, and they find communities where they cheer each other on.

01:57:03.400 Or you have people who have eating disorders, and they cheer each other on.

01:57:07.020 We've replaced structured, centralized culture around a moral tradition with decentralized, random communities on the internet, which are more often than not destructive.

01:57:18.860 Yeah, it's reverse culture shock, or it's like culture dampening of something.

01:57:24.600 Well, I mean, you can just pick your culture.

01:57:26.360 You can pick your community now and go wherever you want to do it, and then you can reinforce whatever you believe.

01:57:30.580 When we were more localized, focused in our own communities, I mean, people would try to conform to what that community was.

01:57:38.740 And that wasn't always good.

01:57:40.160 There were definitely bad communities of the past.

01:57:42.640 But now it's just hyper-individualism.

01:57:45.560 You can just go online, find what you want, believe what you want, and you can get whatever you want.

01:57:48.860 Before the internet, you, it was, I had better adhere to this group around me.

01:57:53.740 And then one day I'm going to move and leave this town and go somewhere else and start my life over again.

01:57:58.140 And I did that at college.

01:57:59.300 I was like, I'm going to be gregarious at college.

01:58:01.600 I'm going to be outspoken and talk.

01:58:02.880 I'm going to be an extrovert at college.

01:58:04.120 So I did.

01:58:04.560 I completely became, went from introvert to extrovert.

01:58:07.160 And then the internet appeared, and it's like, dude, I don't have to adhere to anything anymore.

01:58:11.580 I can make a video, get nine people following me, and that starts the momentum of now I am creating my cult.

01:58:19.340 I don't have to adhere to one anymore.

01:58:21.540 He used to be a normal guy.

01:58:23.000 I was very demure and just logical math guy.

01:58:25.920 He used to cut his hair.

01:58:27.040 I did.

01:58:27.580 Very.

01:58:28.540 Until I was about 28 years old.

01:58:30.240 What were you going to say?

01:58:31.260 Well, I was saying, when we talk about the religious structures of Christianity, the problem we have is we don't have a cohesive idea of what Christianity is, right?

01:58:39.580 We're suggesting that the version that we like is something that we need.

01:58:44.240 But there's no Christian values that we can sit down and say, well, these are definitively Christian values and these are definitively not.

01:58:51.420 So we've got so many different denominations, and they can't agree amongst each other, especially the Protestants versus the Catholics.

01:58:58.560 There's lots of things that they can't agree on.

01:59:00.380 And so—

01:59:01.100 To be fair, the Protestants are all wrong.

01:59:02.860 What about the Ten Commandments or the virtues?

01:59:05.740 I know the virtues are Catholic, Ten Commandments are Jewish, but what about those?

01:59:08.740 Right, yeah.

01:59:09.160 So we go down to Ten Commandments.

01:59:11.020 I do find that the Ten Commandments are like these universal principles that people in all cultures at some point have said, yeah, we kind of agree with these things.

01:59:19.620 And no wonder why it's the main focus of the book of Exodus.

01:59:23.760 But to say that they're unique to Christianity, I think, would be giving it way too much credit.

01:59:29.960 Well, I mean, in the Ten Commandments, there are unique things.

01:59:32.220 I mean, like, only have this one God, no making graven images, the Sabbath, for example.

01:59:38.420 You're not going to find that anywhere else.

01:59:39.620 That is uniquely Judeo-Christian in terms of what that is.

01:59:42.940 And it's a sign of the Old Covenant.

01:59:44.620 Does Islam have these tenets?

01:59:46.640 Well, that comes out of the Abrahamic idea, so yes.

01:59:49.520 But I meant like in the ancient culture from when they started.

01:59:51.740 Well, there's a couple kind of quasi-monotheists in the ancient world, not many.

01:59:57.040 Henotheists.

01:59:57.440 Well, no, quasi-monotheists, so Akhenaten could definitely count as a monotheist.

02:00:03.180 What does that mean?

02:00:04.080 So it's basically you believe in multiple gods, but there's like one God who's sort of above all who's more special than the other gods.

02:00:09.680 Kind of.

02:00:10.440 But I mean like it's, you know, like you could in like the Greek polytheism, like Zeus, of course, is the head of God, but you're going to worship a bunch.

02:00:16.320 When you are a henotheist, your real focus is on that one God specifically, even though you believe he's part of like multiple gods.

02:00:22.940 Yeah, the other gods are basically insignificant in henotheism, and so we find this in quite a few ancient cultures.

02:00:29.300 But there were two, like Nabonidus at some point had a tryst with monotheism, same with Akhenaten, but their cultures that they lived in did not adopt monotheism.

02:00:41.880 One of the things about Islam I really like is there's the four pillars of Islam.

02:00:47.160 Five?

02:00:47.600 Oh, there's five?

02:00:48.360 I believe there's five.

02:00:48.940 I thought there were four.

02:00:49.420 Well, one of them is fasting, is Ramadan, which is basically in the hot, hot heat.

02:00:55.520 They were like, yo, if we're going to survive this heat, we can't eat.

02:00:58.080 Because you eat, your body burns calories, you get hotter and hotter.

02:01:01.140 So they're like, just don't eat for a month.

02:01:03.200 That's probably, I think, where it came from.

02:01:04.440 Well, I mean, they eat and just wait for the sun to go down.

02:01:07.220 They what?

02:01:08.220 They eat, they just wait for the sun to go down.

02:01:09.500 They wait for the sun, when it cools down, then they can eat.

02:01:11.060 And it's like when you fast, the ability to hear God becomes so much clearer because you're not clogged.

02:01:16.080 Like your body's a radio, and you're tuning it to catch the frequency of it speaking to you.

02:01:21.440 And if you're clogged up with funk from food, it's challenging.

02:01:25.440 The cholesterol, it clouds that.

02:01:27.340 But when your body's clear, man, is it easy to touch with God.

02:01:30.820 The church fathers said fasting was the body's way of praying because you're craving something, so you're speaking out for it.

02:01:37.180 So it was this idea that we can pray with our minds, but how is our body going to pray?

02:01:40.640 Will it fast because it's craving something?

02:01:43.040 I'm surprised that it's not part of the Christian tenet, fasting.

02:01:47.820 Lent.

02:01:48.360 Yeah, it did eventually become a tenet, yeah.

02:01:51.360 Lent.

02:01:51.920 Once, one week a year, is it?

02:01:53.800 No, it's 40 days.

02:01:54.860 You fast in between Fat Tuesday.

02:01:57.160 So Fat Tuesday, you get all fat, and you bash Wednesday.

02:01:59.800 And then you would do some type of fast for 40 days.

02:02:03.920 You don't have to, like, give up food.

02:02:05.640 It's different in, like, for example, Catholic versus Lutheran versus the Orthodox.

02:02:09.240 But, like, you'll give up, like, meat.

02:02:11.820 You'll basically be vegan for a couple days of the week, I believe, in the Orthodox Church and some Catholic traditions.

02:02:18.860 But, like, and then if you go to some Protestants that keep it, they'll just say, we're going to give up this one thing for 40 days.

02:02:23.980 So it's different depending on where it manifests in Christianity.

02:02:26.740 Oh, so sometimes it's food.

02:02:27.980 Sometimes it's, like, a video game.

02:02:29.580 Sometimes it's not always food, right?

02:02:30.880 Well, if Catholic and Lutheran—or, sorry, Catholic and Orthodox, it has to be you're basically vegan a couple days of the week or, you know, for the 40 days, other than Fridays where you're allowed to eat fish.

02:02:40.540 So it started as a morning ritual, so you're fasting prior to the crucifixion of Jesus, right?

02:02:46.140 It's a morning ritual, because in the ancient world, you didn't eat when you were mourning.

02:02:50.540 You certainly wouldn't have eaten meat.

02:02:52.120 So that's basically what they're tapping into with Lent.

02:02:56.120 Now, over the course of time, the period that you're fasting turned into a longer period into the whole Lenten season, but you couldn't actually fast for the whole season.

02:03:03.860 And so it got morphed into, like, well, we're going to fast just meat, or we're going to fast just X, Y, and Z.

02:03:10.520 But that's kind of the origination of it.

02:03:12.200 But in Jewish culture and in early Christian culture, fasting was always very important.

02:03:16.700 Yeah.

02:03:17.520 It was a sign of repentance.

02:03:19.340 It was a sign of mourning.

02:03:20.500 So, for example, if you are really repentant of your sins, like we see in the book of Jonah, when Nineveh repents of their sins, they fast and they put on sackcloth and ashes.

02:03:29.600 In fact, they even put sackcloth and ashes on the cattle.

02:03:32.440 That's how repentant they were.

02:03:33.860 So with the last few minutes here, we'll go back to the principal question at hand, which is, can the West survive without Christianity?

02:03:41.240 I do think one thing we probably all agree on, and maybe we don't, is—here's the question—do we as a nation, just the United States, require a shared moral tradition to function?

02:03:52.380 I think yes.

02:03:54.080 Otherwise, we're going to start to see slow societal collapse.

02:03:57.600 We're going to—moving from one culture to another would always be chaos.

02:04:01.400 I do think that if, you know, we completely became atheists over the next 50 years, you know, we would eventually adopt, come up with a new culture, possibly.

02:04:09.040 I think, honestly, it would be Islam based on birth rates.

02:04:11.500 But let's just say, like, everybody was atheist tomorrow.

02:04:14.320 Would we still require a shared moral understanding of how we should live?

02:04:17.960 Yes.

02:04:18.120 I think we do.

02:04:18.840 I think societies in large do better when you can kind of have some level of agreement on, like, what right and wrong is.

02:04:25.920 Otherwise, you have nothing but infighting.

02:04:28.440 What would—like, let's say, I don't know, Qatar or the Emirates got rid of Islam and just said, we're no longer going to use this doctrine.

02:04:39.320 What would their moral tradition look like if you removed Islam from those countries?

02:04:44.620 So, you know, my experience is when people leave religion, they typically have roughly similar moral values as when they were in the religion.

02:04:52.520 In fact, if you poll most Christians and Muslims about their actual moral values, they don't always align with what they actually believe in the faith.

02:04:59.460 And people's moral values are more subjective than we realize.

02:05:03.380 And so my experience is that people leaving their particular religion is not that they go into complete lack of morals.

02:05:11.100 They typically align similar with what they were raised.

02:05:14.260 It's not until their kids come into the world that we find a large divergence in what they believe, because they weren't tethered to anything.

02:05:21.560 I guess the issue that I'm looking at is there—in the United States, you have the Judeo-Christian moral tradition, and then you have lack thereof.

02:05:32.900 There's not been a dominant replacement for the Christian moral tradition in this country, even among people who are atheists.

02:05:40.040 This is the example we give with Bill Maher.

02:05:41.760 He still largely adheres to Judeo-Christian values in a secular way, like, even though he's not religious, he still was raised in a society that said these are valuable things.

02:05:50.620 He believes that.

02:05:51.940 You look at countries like China or Japan that don't have those traditions, and their moral structures are very, very different.

02:05:59.140 Obviously, China does not believe in innocent until proven guilty.

02:06:03.140 They don't believe that you have a right to free speech.

02:06:05.660 Most of these Islamic nations absolutely reject that, even despite the fact they did have Abrahamic values.

02:06:10.500 So I guess what it comes down to is either we sit back and wait to see if there will be, in this vacuum in the United States, a new moral philosophy or moral tradition that we value.

02:06:22.600 So far, we haven't seen it.

02:06:23.500 That wokeness, which emerged somewhere from this vacuum, which is considered—I agree with this, that it's a non-theistic religion—was a horrifyingly authoritarian and despotic ideology that isolate people based on weird identities and who they want to have sex with.

02:06:38.360 It's just a very strange thing that is ultimately very bad.

02:06:40.920 I don't want to live under those rules.

02:06:41.900 I also would not want to live under Islamic—even if it was reformed—rules.

02:06:47.760 The values they have are very, very different, although not completely in every way, but their traditions are very, very different.

02:06:55.500 Even if you cover the religion, I don't like the way that those countries typically treat women, for instance.

02:07:00.660 And then, obviously, the communist values of many of these eastern nations, regardless of whether they're overtly inspired by communists,

02:07:07.640 but their very hierarchical, authoritarian, communal functions, I also wouldn't want to agree with.

02:07:12.620 Stripping out the spiritual beliefs from it, leaving behind only the rudimentary—let's just call it, like, divergent deist beliefs of various countries—

02:07:21.480 I would still rather live in a nation, whether it was Christian or otherwise, that was built upon Christian moral values.

02:07:28.000 And that's probably because I grew up in a country that had these values.

02:07:31.220 So, will the United States function without Christianity is a ridiculously difficult question to answer.

02:07:40.480 But as most people in this country genuinely still value Judeo-Christian moral framework,

02:07:46.760 if that starts to go away for wokeness, you get social collapse.

02:07:51.380 You get conflict.

02:07:52.180 You get fighting.

02:07:53.080 You get people trying to blow up Tesla dealerships.

02:07:55.480 You get degradation, largely because what we're seeing right now in this country with the hyperpolarization is not necessarily a political worldview clash.

02:08:04.080 It's a moral worldview clash.

02:08:06.380 There are people who have outright said it should be illegal to have more than a certain amount of money.

02:08:12.100 The other half of the country is like, what?

02:08:13.740 Why?

02:08:14.500 They don't have the same moral framework.

02:08:16.580 One is rooted in a traditional Christian moral framework.

02:08:20.000 One is a complete lack thereof.

02:08:21.020 I think the children of people who are secular, as you were saying, they don't have that moral framework.

02:08:24.840 And this is causing a clash, which could lead ultimately to serious violence.

02:08:29.740 Notably, as we mentioned with slavery, despite the fact that everybody was Christian, half of them were like, no, Christianity doesn't allow you to do this.

02:08:36.960 And half of them were like, yes, it does.

02:08:38.360 And then they fought to the death.

02:08:40.480 So, I don't know where we go from here other than to say it's not so much that the religion is what matters.

02:08:45.780 It's that we still, largely in this country, hold on to a moral tradition.

02:08:50.300 And if that is taken away, the people who see the world this way are not going to let it go, and society will cease to function effectively.

02:08:57.300 So, the states break apart, or we get attacked from the outside, or the economy crumbles, and we become a very corrupt state of police not enforcing certain laws.

02:09:05.440 Because you're not going to have social cohesion without cohesive moral tradition.

02:09:10.100 And secular attempts to try to make new things like wokeism, or even on the right, with more political understandings of Christian nationalism, just simply don't work.

02:09:19.960 They lead to more of these authoritarian ideas.

02:09:22.500 I mean, as John Witt Jr. said, the regime of law, democracy, and human rights needs religion to survive.

02:09:26.940 There's a reason that a lot of these ideas came out of the Christian West, despite the fact that no one was perfect, and there were Christians pushing against a lot of these ideas that we hold sacred.

02:09:36.240 There's a reason that sociologists and historians will say these came out of this.

02:09:41.240 So, if we move away from Christianity, we can see in real time the authoritarianism, the low birth rates, and the lack of charity that's coming out of it.

02:09:48.800 So, there is something still here that we need.

02:09:51.380 Maybe in the future, some secular group will come up with something better, but until we get there, the best what we got right now is the Christian tradition and our Christian heritage for keeping this cohesive, stable society.

02:10:02.840 Even Roland to Salem found Christianity was associated with more political stability, citizen empowerment, voice and accountability in government, and he published a whole study using an OLS model for that.

02:10:12.600 Let's try something real simple as we wrap up.

02:10:14.660 Ian, you like free speech.

02:10:15.700 I do.

02:10:16.300 You also like free speech, I believe.

02:10:17.700 Love it.

02:10:19.000 You know, these Islamic nations don't have this.

02:10:20.600 China doesn't have this.

02:10:21.360 Eastern countries don't have this.

02:10:22.380 African countries largely don't have this.

02:10:24.060 It is largely a Western tradition.

02:10:26.540 As Christianity waned and we saw the rise of wokeness, they also completely reject free speech.

02:10:32.000 So, not that it is inherent among Christianity as a core religion that we have free speech, but if we adopted any other moral tradition, I think we'd all be quite upset.

02:10:40.840 Yeah.

02:10:41.760 If I have to choose between Islam and Christianity, I'm going to pick Christianity.

02:10:44.960 What about wokeness?

02:10:45.460 Well, I don't know wokeness because I'm not politically active like you guys are, so I can't comment on wokeness.

02:10:50.880 So, like, you're not allowed to, like, you have to hire people based on race.

02:10:55.300 If there's too many white people at a company, you're not allowed to hire white people.

02:10:59.500 If you need a certain number of people that work for you, or how about this?

02:11:04.400 A better example when it comes to speech, progressive stack.

02:11:06.800 This means that right now, none of you are allowed to speak.

02:11:10.220 If we are operating under the tenets of woke moral tradition, which I wouldn't call tradition because it's new, none of you are allowed to speak as you're all white men.

02:11:17.700 And I, as a mixed race person, am only allowed to talk, and you have to listen to me.

02:11:20.860 One of the craziest things about wokeism...

02:11:22.180 Real quick, like, you wouldn't want to live that way, right?

02:11:24.520 I wouldn't want to, but I'm not really sure who is.

02:11:26.620 Like, in the world I live in, I live in a moderate state, and we don't have those types of extremities on the left or the right.

02:11:34.520 You do.

02:11:35.460 They're in all the schools, they're in all the governments, and to varying degrees.

02:11:38.920 Loudoun County, for instance, which is fairly moderate, had schools giving kids books with porn in them, which caused a huge controversy.

02:11:45.420 When a man's daughter was 12 and she was raped in a bathroom by a non-binary boy who was allowed to use the bathroom.

02:11:51.960 Again, Loudoun County, Virginia, leaning kind of blue, but fairly moderate.

02:11:55.520 When he showed up angry, demanding answers, they had him arrested, and the federal government referred to the parents across the country who are protesting this as terrorists.

02:12:03.080 So, it is not that it has taken over the entire country.

02:12:05.960 In fact, I think it's being pushed back quite deeply now with the victory of Donald Trump, and there's a good reason why.

02:12:11.040 In Chicago, in what you would deem as moderate areas, they have been implementing these things.

02:12:16.880 Point to Canada for the real, like, explicit danger of compelled speech, which was an aspect of wokeism.

02:12:23.020 The UK.

02:12:23.300 Bill C-16 in Canada, Jordan Peterson, it's kind of how he made his mark, speaking out against it.

02:12:27.260 Right, yeah, he got famous on that one.

02:12:28.420 It was like, if I say I'm a woman and you call me a man, you could go to jail.

02:12:31.420 That kind of danger of escalation of wokeism.

02:12:33.780 That's happening in the United States as well.

02:12:35.080 That was like a language police religion kind of.

02:12:37.560 The UK is a good example.

02:12:38.860 If you point out that a guy who went on a murdering spree was Islamic, you go to jail.

02:12:45.360 And that is what we describe as wokeness.

02:12:46.920 It is, they say the reason it's illegal is you're going to create racial animus.

02:12:51.660 So stop telling people that religions or races, like, the motivation for the crime was the man screamed, Allahu Akbar.

02:12:59.320 If you go on Facebook in the UK and say, it is clearly Islam that is motivating these people to murder, you will be arrested.

02:13:05.440 They, Germany especially, that's what we call wokeness.

02:13:09.380 It's illogical.

02:13:10.900 I don't want to live under that, under those rules.

02:13:13.280 And there are people who scream online all day about Zijus that are the most annoying, stupid people.

02:13:18.540 Oh, they sure are.

02:13:19.620 But they're allowed to say it because I don't want to live in Germany where they're going to kick your door and arrest you because you're an idiot.

02:13:24.420 Well, let me just say, I think Christianity is the second least worst religion next to Judaism.

02:13:30.060 Judaism is my favorite just because the Ten Commandments are like my godstone if I think about human religions.

02:13:34.740 But kind of find God yourself.

02:13:36.960 So I guess that's all I've got to say about that.

02:13:39.620 Well, we do have to wrap up.

02:13:41.000 We went a little bit over, so we've got to go quick.

02:13:42.340 But if you guys want to get a final thought or a shout-out before we go.

02:13:46.020 Yeah.

02:13:46.300 I mean, you can follow me more at Inspiring Philosophy on YouTube.

02:13:49.480 I'm planning videos this summer on how Christianity ended slavery, how Christianity created human rights, how Christianity created science.

02:13:57.540 So you can follow me there for more, and I'm going to keep doing more on this topic.

02:14:00.860 Sure.

02:14:01.520 Thanks for having me, by the way.

02:14:03.200 I don't follow politics.

02:14:04.260 I was surprised that I was invited to come.

02:14:07.240 But yeah, follow me on Deconstruction Zone.

02:14:09.440 I primarily debate religious topics.

02:14:12.320 I'm probably most famous for debunking all the prophecies that Jesus never fulfilled and talking about how the Bible enshrines slavery.

02:14:19.840 And when God says you can do it, it's very hard to question it.

02:14:23.220 But yeah, thanks for having me.

02:14:24.460 Yeah, absolutely.

02:14:24.840 Yeah, it was like we opened up the pot and just scooped out a top layer of goodness to talk about for today's episode.

02:14:32.060 And there's just a big bowl of jelly that I want to go deeper into.

02:14:36.780 What were you going to say?

02:14:37.300 We can all agree that Islam is dangerous.

02:14:39.140 Well, I don't know.

02:14:40.180 I think extremism is dangerous.

02:14:41.840 And anyone that takes a religion and creates an extremist ideology out of it is a bad dude.

02:14:46.660 I was on stage because a Muslim challenged me because he wanted to argue child marriage should be allowed today.

02:14:51.960 And he is just a guy living in the U.S.

02:14:54.460 And every time I bring up child marriage, it's always Muslims coming at me going, no, no, it's not that bad.

02:14:59.200 It is bad.

02:15:00.160 I'll give one final thought before you – because we do got to go.

02:15:01.900 But to elaborate logically with hard facts as to what you said about Islam, I do not mean to disparage someone in their religious beliefs.

02:15:11.760 People have to believe what they want.

02:15:13.200 But the Hadith literally calls on Muslims to murder Jews.

02:15:16.720 And I can never, never accept that.

02:15:19.180 And it is a conundrum of the rules of big tech, though it's changing, when they say you can't disparage someone based on their religion or whatever or attack a religion or whatever.

02:15:28.460 It's ridiculous.

02:15:29.860 Look, if your religion of any kind, I don't care what it is, specifically calls upon you to murder other people, I am going to tell you that's wrong.

02:15:36.680 And that's the principal issue I have with Islam is that it literally says, oh, the end will not come until every tree and every rock will scream out, there's a Jew hiding behind me, come kill him.

02:15:45.880 That's psychotic.

02:15:46.960 I don't care.

02:15:47.360 I don't care what anybody says.

02:15:48.380 Don't kill people, okay?

02:15:50.460 Ian, do you want to shout anything out?

02:15:52.560 Yeah, all sorts of stuff, man.

02:15:54.260 Well, make it quick.

02:15:54.880 Do castbrew.com.

02:15:55.960 Go to castbrew.com.

02:15:57.120 Unfortunately, my coffee's out.

02:15:58.540 Also, we got Kellen on the buttons.

02:16:00.480 I don't know if Kellen's going to shout out anything tonight.

02:16:02.740 What are you up to?

02:16:03.920 No, I have to leave.

02:16:05.400 Let's wrap it up, T-Bone.

02:16:06.720 All right.

02:16:07.440 Thank you all so much for hanging out.

02:16:08.580 This has been a blast.

02:16:09.200 Thank you guys for coming.

02:16:10.300 We're back tonight for TimCast IRL.

02:16:12.340 We're going to be live at a special event.

02:16:14.340 We're hanging out with Mike Cernovich.

02:16:16.480 Big fan.

02:16:17.320 Deep respect.

02:16:18.000 Really excited to have this conversation about the Epstein Files.

02:16:20.260 And we will see you at rumble.com slash TimCast IRL tonight at 8 p.m.

02:16:23.920 This is your captain.

02:16:28.460 Down to your left, you'll see a BMO.

02:16:29.960 How could he know that?

02:16:31.060 From 30,000 feet.

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02:16:36.160 All I see are clouds.

02:16:37.580 The window poster says get a cash bonus for opening a checking and savings amplifier account.

02:16:41.960 He's messing with us, right?

02:16:43.140 I don't know, but it's a compelling offer.

02:16:44.680 Now sit back and enjoy our in-flight entertainment.

02:16:46.940 Ooh, what's that movie about?

02:16:47.980 It says BMO makes your savings go further.

02:16:51.040 Okay.

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02:16:53.700 Visit BMO.com slash cash.

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02:16:56.900 Hey, Ma.

02:16:57.800 Yeah?

02:16:58.200 Remember that cottage we used to go to every summer?

02:17:00.540 Yes.

02:17:01.300 Oh, so many memories.

02:17:03.500 I think about it all the time.

02:17:05.100 Yeah.

02:17:05.460 I wish it was still ours.

02:17:06.680 Well, you don't have to wish anymore.

02:17:11.280 You could make your and your loved one's dreams come true.

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02:17:24.460 Okay.

02:17:24.920 Bye.

02:17:25.120 Bye.

02:17:25.240 Bye.

02:17:28.560 Bye.

02:17:48.920 Bye.

The Culture War - Tim Pool - February 28, 2025

THE END OF THE WEST, Will We Survive Without Christianity？ w⧸ Michael Jones & Justin Holmes

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