The Culture War - Tim Pool - January 15, 2025


Tiktok To SHUT DOWN On Sunday As SCOTUS Fails To Issue Decision On Ban, Trump Says HOLD UP


Episode Stats


Length

25 minutes

Words per minute

156.37233

Word count

3,968

Sentence count

303

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

11

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

TikTok is preparing to shut down on Sunday, and the Supreme Court has yet to issue a ruling on whether or not they can continue to operate in the United States. What will this mean for the millions of users who rely on TikTok?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:15.300 TikTok is preparing to shut down this Sunday after a ban was signed last year.
00:00:21.400 And as of today, the Supreme Court has issued no decision.
00:00:26.820 Now, they may still issue an injunction.
00:00:28.940 We don't know exactly what's going to happen.
00:00:31.540 But if there is no intervention, this is it.
00:00:35.360 Now, some have questioned why TikTok would make this move.
00:00:38.440 There's ways to mitigate the damage.
00:00:40.840 They could just divest from ByteDance, which is the Chinese-owned component of TikTok.
00:00:46.000 But they're not.
00:00:47.120 They're saying, no, we will shut down.
00:00:50.100 And there's a big argument about whether or not TikTok can even be banned.
00:00:54.380 Do they have First Amendment constitutional rights in these United States?
00:00:58.940 Well, my friends, this could impact 112 million estimated users of TikTok in the United States.
00:01:06.480 It can cause a decent amount of economic damage as there's a lot of young entrepreneurs who use the platform to make a living.
00:01:13.460 But the question is still challenging.
00:01:16.680 Should we, as the United States, allow China, an adversary of this country, to operate what is mass media in the United States? 0.97
00:01:26.140 See, the argument is their algorithm controls what young people in this country think.
00:01:30.520 Why would we let China control such a large portion of our economy? 0.71
00:01:35.320 Not the biggest, but still a portion, especially one that could influence politics.
00:01:39.980 Well, the public is divided, my friends.
00:01:42.900 But the issue here isn't so simple.
00:01:45.740 Conservatives were first to want to ban TikTok.
00:01:48.680 Then all of a sudden, liberals jumped on board saying they wanted to ban TikTok.
00:01:52.840 You got a bipartisan effort.
00:01:54.380 And the question is, how did this happen?
00:01:57.540 Why now is Donald Trump saying, actually, hold on, let's keep TikTok around?
00:02:02.840 We're going to deep dive into this issue.
00:02:04.140 I'm going to break down the whole story for you, why TikTok is being banned, why Trump says don't do it, and why some Democrats are saying let's hold off as well.
00:02:12.540 How did the narrative flip so quickly?
00:02:14.380 And how are we barreling towards the permanent ban of a massive social media platform?
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00:03:10.280 The first story that we have, breaking down where we're at.
00:03:13.460 TikTok prepares for U.S. shutdown from Sunday, sources say.
00:03:18.820 Reuters reports, TikTok plans to shut its app for U.S. users from Sunday when a federal ban on the social media app could come into effect unless the Supreme Court moves to block it, people familiar with the matter said.
00:03:31.600 The outcome of the shutdown would be different from that mandated by the law.
00:03:35.560 The law would mandate a ban only on new TikTok downloads on Apple or Google app stores, while existing users could continue to use it for some time.
00:03:45.540 Under TikTok's plan, people attempting to open the app will see a pop-up message directing them to a website with information about the ban that people said, requesting anonymity as the matter is not public.
00:03:56.540 The company also plans to give users an option to download all their data so they can take a record of their personal information.
00:04:04.040 Shutting down such a service does not require longer planning, one of the sources said, noting that most operations have been continuing as usual as of this week.
00:04:12.760 If the ban gets reversed later, TikTok would be able to restore service for U.S. users in a relatively short time, the source said.
00:04:19.100 So, why shut down if they can keep operating?
00:04:23.780 Well, according to the rumor, TikTok wants to shock you.
00:04:28.580 Seriously.
00:04:29.460 They know that if they say, we're going to pull from the app store and still allow those with the app to keep using it, well, most people are just going to keep on keeping on.
00:04:39.460 There's not a ruffling of feathers, as it were.
00:04:41.820 But if they take away the platform from you, sort of in protest, they force many prominent, influential young people to speak up in outrage and go after members of Congress, lead protests and demand the restoration of their platform.
00:05:00.180 Reuters goes on to say,
00:05:01.080 So, let's work backward real quick.
00:05:25.080 So, I can give you the gist of what this law says and talk about how it came to be and why we are even discussing banning TikTok in the first place.
00:05:34.400 The AP reported this.
00:05:36.420 Senate passes bill forcing TikTok's parent company to sell or face ban and sends the bill to Biden for signature.
00:05:44.040 Shortly after, President Biden signed the new law to ban TikTok nationwide unless it is sold.
00:05:50.000 On April 24th of last year, NPR reported President Biden on Wednesday signed a law that would ban Chinese owned TikTok unless it is sold within a year.
00:05:59.980 It is the most serious threat yet to the video streaming app's future in the U.S., intensifying America's tech war with China.
00:06:06.420 Still, the law is not expected to cause any immediate disruption to TikTok as a forthcoming legal challenge and various hurdles to selling the app will most likely cause months of delay.
00:06:14.580 The issue at play is that TikTok, according to Wikipedia and, well, the news, is...
00:06:44.560 That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com. 0.96
00:06:49.060 Owned by China, effectively.
00:06:52.220 Wikipedia says TikTok is a Chinese short-form video hosting service owned by Chinese internet company ByteDance.
00:06:59.120 It hosts user-submitted videos, which may range in duration from 3 seconds to 60 minutes.
00:07:04.700 It can be accessed with a smartphone app or on the web.
00:07:07.260 According to Statista, they've got around 113.2 million users, meaning this could deeply impact a ton of people.
00:07:17.340 The bill that was created last year and passed and then signed was not a direct ban on TikTok.
00:07:24.680 And everybody was coming out saying they're going to ban TikTok.
00:07:27.500 That violates free speech.
00:07:29.600 It's going to take away my platform.
00:07:31.260 But this was never a ban.
00:07:33.520 They're simply saying, hey, we don't believe a foreign adversary like China, Iran, Russia should be able to operate in the United States.
00:07:44.340 So TikTok, just sell off your Chinese component and you can keep operating. 0.99
00:07:50.540 It's not a ban.
00:07:51.700 But if China is going to have access to manipulating an algorithm by which young people get their news and collect and store private data of Americans, that is a threat to our national security. 0.79
00:08:03.760 That is a threat to our economy.
00:08:05.680 And thus, many people on both sides said, yeah, actually, this makes a lot of sense.
00:08:11.140 Here we have the bill, H.R. 7521 in the Senate of the United States, an act to protect the national security of the United States from the threat posed by foreign adversary controlled applications, such as TikTok and any successor application or service and any other application or service developed or provided by ByteDance LTD or an entity under the control of ByteDance LTD.
00:08:33.140 It reads, in general, prohibition of foreign adversary controlled applications.
00:08:39.800 It shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain or update or enable the distribution, maintenance or updating of a foreign adversary controlled application by carrying out within the land or maritime borders of the United States.
00:08:53.020 It's any of the following a providing services to distribute, maintain or update such foreign adversary controlled application through which users within the land or maritime borders, blah, blah.
00:09:02.160 But you get the point.
00:09:03.540 I'm not going to read all the intense legalese.
00:09:05.360 The point is, if a foreign adversary is operating a platform in such a way, they must divest or be removed from U.S. servers.
00:09:14.160 In the definition sections, it says controlled by a foreign adversary means with respect to a covered company or other entity that such company or other entity is a foreign person that is domiciled in, headquartered in, has its principal place of business in or is organized under the laws of a foreign adversary country, an entity with respect to which a foreign person or combination of foreign persons described in subparagraph A directly or indirectly own at least 20% stake.
00:09:42.240 Or a person subject to the direction or control of a foreign person or entity described in subparagraph A or B.
00:09:50.540 Now they go on to define foreign adversary controlled application specifically as any of ByteDance, TikTok, their subsidiaries or successors, entities controlled by them or a covered company that is controlled by a foreign adversary and that is determined by the president to present a significant threat to national security of the U.S. following the issuance of.
00:10:11.140 And then they go on to add a public notice, a public report, there is an opportunity to challenge this that is in this, and they say foreign adversary country means a country specified in section 4872D2 of Title 10 U.S. Code.
00:10:26.500 This law is about acquisition of materials from non-allied foreign nations, and in this they say covered nation means the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, the People's Republic of China, the Russian Federation, and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
00:10:42.900 So basically, if there's any app that has ownership or funding or is connected in some way to one of those four countries, the president could issue a report saying our national security is threatened, deliver the report to Congress, and then there would be a judicial review period.
00:10:58.780 The bill states, in the case of a challenge, it can happen not later than 165 days after the date of the enactment of this act.
00:11:08.380 And in the case of a challenge to any action or determination, not later than 90 days.
00:11:13.500 So that means for TikTok and ByteDance, they had 165 days to challenge this bill specifically, and if Trump or whoever tries to go after any other company, they'll have only 90 days to file a challenge.
00:11:25.680 Now, of course, TikTok said they won't shut down if the Supreme Court intervenes.
00:11:31.380 Well, obviously, if the Supreme Court cuts them some slack, they won't need to.
00:11:34.840 And it's looking like the Supreme Court may be skeptical, but we will see.
00:11:39.340 As of today, the Supreme Court has not issued a decision, and today's supposed to be a decision day.
00:11:45.940 They may still issue an injunction, but it's not looking good for TikTok in the short term or its users.
00:11:52.660 SCOTUSblog broke it down.
00:11:54.180 Supreme Court skeptical of ban on TikTok.
00:11:58.200 The Supreme Court on Friday was divided over the constitutionality of a federal law that would require social media giant TikTok to shut down in the U.S.
00:12:05.120 unless its Chinese parent company can sell it by January 19th.
00:12:08.520 During two hours of oral arguments, the justices raised questions about whether the law at the center of the case actually restricts TikTok's freedom of speech,
00:12:16.440 as well as about what will happen if there is no sale by the deadline.
00:12:20.000 The article wraps by saying,
00:12:50.000 The Supreme Court emphasized that the restrictions on TikTok could be lifted as soon as ByteDance sells it,
00:12:54.760 which might be just the jolt that ByteDance needs to move forward.
00:12:59.300 TikTok and ByteDance have been unnoticed since 2020.
00:13:02.700 The parent company might need to sell TikTok, she stressed.
00:13:05.360 ByteDance added that there was no basis for the Supreme Court to enter a preliminary injunction blocking the law unless it believes TikTok is ultimately likely to succeed on the merits of its challenge to the law.
00:13:15.800 And today, SCOTUS blog reported there is no decision on TikTok, which means injunction or nothing.
00:13:24.720 So, my friends, it looks like TikTok will be shut down.
00:13:29.160 But I got to tell you my thoughts right now.
00:13:32.200 I mean, I want to deep dive more into where this ban comes from because it goes left and right, up and down.
00:13:38.020 But let me just say, China doesn't get free speech in the United States. 0.77
00:13:42.540 Imagine going to the Founding Fathers with an originalist view of the Constitution, right, in mind.
00:13:49.080 Go to the Founding Fathers and say,
00:13:50.980 Good sirs, when you presented the idea of free speech under the Constitution,
00:13:56.440 did you mean that a foreign adversary of the United States could leaflet in our country?
00:14:02.960 They'd say, what?
00:14:03.720 No, of course not.
00:14:05.400 I mean, it's kind of absurd, right?
00:14:06.600 In trying to understand what free speech does protect, I think you'd be hard-pressed to believe
00:14:12.680 that a foreign country operating in their country should have access to the communications
00:14:18.800 or free speech rights in domestic United States territory.
00:14:23.720 That doesn't seem to make any sense at all.
00:14:27.340 And so, if Congress or the President and these laws are passed,
00:14:31.220 if they also choose that foreign adversaries should not be operating algorithmic media control
00:14:37.940 to 112 million U.S. users, then, well, it seems to make sense.
00:14:44.160 Why, then, would the Supreme Court get involved anyway?
00:14:48.280 Seems like the Supreme Court we have right now might just say,
00:14:51.240 Guys, this is not a question for us.
00:14:54.220 A bill was passed.
00:14:55.780 This is a foreign adversarial nation as defined by other laws. 0.78
00:14:59.760 If we were to unrestrict us, it could open up a can of worms.
00:15:03.480 Congress has spoken.
00:15:04.880 The President signed it.
00:15:06.200 Thank you, and have a nice day.
00:15:08.540 Now, Senator Marky, Wyden, and Booker, and Rep. Khanna,
00:15:11.680 have announced legislation to extend the TikTok ban deadline.
00:15:15.300 And this might actually go through.
00:15:18.380 Donald Trump wants to push back the ban.
00:15:20.880 He wants to negotiate something else.
00:15:22.620 Why?
00:15:23.440 It's actually kind of funny.
00:15:25.400 Donald Trump and conservatives were upset that TikTok was banning conservative companies.
00:15:29.760 And there was no way to counter that.
00:15:31.940 As with Twitter and Facebook, there at least was some legal remedy.
00:15:36.500 Well, TikTok was China, so conservatives were like, nuke them.
00:15:40.540 Then all of a sudden, the algorithm changed, and Donald Trump started doing really well.
00:15:44.500 Conservative memes started going viral, and Trump says,
00:15:46.820 Whoa, whoa, whoa, we like what we see.
00:15:49.040 That does seem like a bad strategy, though.
00:15:52.040 Because if ByteDance is going to play a game like that, if that's true,
00:15:55.920 why wouldn't they just turn around like they did, just do it again, and then wield that power against you?
00:16:02.640 The question at play is, should they have the power to do that?
00:16:06.000 At first, Democrats liked TikTok.
00:16:08.140 Now they don't.
00:16:09.240 At first, conservatives didn't like it.
00:16:10.700 Now they do.
00:16:11.860 I don't know that anyone's going to buy it.
00:16:13.960 It's all about who gets the power, right?
00:16:15.660 Now there are a lot of people arguing that TikTok should be allowed to operate in the United States.
00:16:21.260 And the reason for it is that, well, American social media was effectively working in collusion
00:16:27.420 with the U.S. government to censor Americans.
00:16:29.780 I personally don't agree with this argument, but I do understand it.
00:16:33.480 The argument is Facebook bans certain ideas.
00:16:36.840 They're effectively propaganda for the FBI, the NSA, the CIA.
00:16:41.360 And so is Twitter.
00:16:42.380 Well, Elon Musk bought Twitter, turned it into X, and it's greatly improved.
00:16:47.040 Still, people are arguing that there are nefarious forces that are going to force the algorithms
00:16:52.940 to only support certain opinions.
00:16:55.480 In this story from ABC 15, leaked documents show Facebook made a portal for feds to report misinformation.
00:17:03.640 Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmidt and Louisiana Attorney General Jeff Landry filed a lawsuit
00:17:07.880 earlier this year seeking to uncover collusion between major social media companies and the
00:17:12.980 federal government to censor free speech around topics such as COVID-19.
00:17:17.820 In the most recent example is Mark Zuckerberg appearing on the Joe Rogan podcast.
00:17:23.320 The Daily Beast says Mark Zuckerberg tells Joe Rogan Biden aides cursed and screamed.
00:17:29.620 Zuckerberg told Joe Rogan that Facebook has faced massive institutional pressure to start censoring
00:17:34.360 content on ideological grounds.
00:17:37.040 I love it.
00:17:38.720 It's funny because it's vindication.
00:17:41.020 Remember when we were all saying that conservatives are being targeted and the media lied and said
00:17:44.660 it wasn't true?
00:17:45.400 Yeah, it's because the government was telling them to do it.
00:17:48.180 Now I'm of two minds on this.
00:17:49.980 Part of me is terrified at the idea that Biden's administration was using the power of the federal
00:17:56.560 government to force Facebook to censor Americans.
00:17:59.700 And the other part of me is happy that Mark Zuckerberg was getting yelled at.
00:18:04.380 But in all seriousness, yeah, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, the censorship is real.
00:18:12.220 So for a lot of people, TikTok represents separate interests.
00:18:16.100 Not that we trust China, but at the very least, their censorship will be different.
00:18:21.420 So if you go on the Chinese controlled app, you can say X, Y and Z, but you can't say A,
00:18:26.720 B and C. And if you go on the American controlled app, it's inverted.
00:18:30.120 X, Y and Z is is banned, but ABC is OK.
00:18:33.860 Maybe then you'll get a mix because both come both governments are competing with each other.
00:18:38.380 I got to be honest.
00:18:39.740 I still much prefer American interests over Chinese interests. 0.95
00:18:43.460 At the very least, we learned about what the federal government was doing.
00:18:47.080 We were able to sue them and we put a stop to it.
00:18:49.640 Largely, not not entirely.
00:18:52.680 Largely, that'd be naive, but I think we can still counter it when it's in America.
00:18:57.420 We can't if it's China. 0.95
00:18:59.140 In this report from the House Oversight Committee in February of 2023, we saw the cover up big tech,
00:19:06.240 the swamp and mainstream media coordinated to censor Americans free speech.
00:19:09.820 It's incredible to basically go on to talk about how Facebook, Twitter and other platforms
00:19:14.960 were outright censoring Americans and affecting the outcomes of elections.
00:19:19.600 In this story from Legal Dive, they say Twitter legal chief Vijaya Gade at center of storm is fired
00:19:27.000 as Musk completes purchase of social media site.
00:19:30.300 Gade shouldered the brunt of Musk's criticism of the platform's approach to content moderation.
00:19:34.760 In fact, some had accused her of actually having meetings with feds on a regular basis to,
00:19:40.120 let's just say, figure out what to censor.
00:19:42.980 And although I will say things have improved greatly, there are still many people criticizing
00:19:48.480 Twitter's new iteration X for censoring people.
00:19:52.960 Axios reports,
00:19:54.600 MAGA versus Musk, right wing critics allege censorship loss of X badges.
00:20:00.020 The simple argument, there were many prominent voices on X that lost their premium badges,
00:20:05.120 their verified badges.
00:20:06.120 And this meant they lost access to subscriptions.
00:20:08.460 And they said Elon Musk was censoring them, particularly over immigration issues.
00:20:14.280 Now, Elon Musk's response was,
00:20:16.260 some people think that freedom of speech means I have to pay them to do it.
00:20:19.800 No, you're allowed to insult me,
00:20:22.240 but I don't have to keep you in our premium partner program
00:20:26.120 and allow you to make money based on the things you say.
00:20:29.040 You can still say it, but we're not paying you for it.
00:20:31.380 So all in all, here's the timeline that Axios has put forward.
00:20:36.280 In August of 2020, Trump tried to force the sale of TikTok.
00:20:40.340 In April, Biden signed the bill.
00:20:43.180 On May 7th, 2024, TikTok and ByteDance sued the U.S.
00:20:48.020 On August 2nd, 2024, the FTC, the DOJ sued TikTok and ByteDance.
00:20:54.080 In December, a federal appeals court upheld the ban.
00:20:57.200 On December 27th, 2024, Trump asked SCOTUS to pause the ban.
00:21:02.960 January 10th, the Supreme Court held a hearing.
00:21:06.100 And now, as of Sunday, the deadline to either ban it or sell it.
00:21:11.260 One major issue at play for a lot of people is Israel-Palestine.
00:21:15.660 There are a lot of people who feel on the left and on the right
00:21:18.580 that criticism of Israel is likely to get banned on mainstream social media platforms,
00:21:23.120 but less so on TikTok.
00:21:24.720 The Intercept reported the TikTok ban is also about hiding pro-Palestinian content.
00:21:31.000 Republicans said so themselves.
00:21:34.500 And they ain't wrong.
00:21:36.420 On TikTok, criticism of Israel skyrocketed.
00:21:40.840 And it seemed to be deliberate.
00:21:43.760 There was a week where pro-Israel content following October 7th was massive on TikTok.
00:21:49.380 And pro-Hamas, pro-Palestine, they're separate things, I know, were low.
00:21:53.460 But seemingly, over the weekend, it inverted.
00:21:57.320 And all of a sudden, pro-Palestine content skyrocketed.
00:22:01.980 The implication was, it was a deliberate algorithmic change.
00:22:05.980 Many Republicans said TikTok was trying to undermine U.S. security interests.
00:22:11.680 Now, of course, for a lot of people in the United States who are anti-war and critical of Israel,
00:22:15.680 they were like, so what?
00:22:17.140 We're allowed to criticize it.
00:22:19.640 But there is an argument to be made of, yeah, but if you're being propped up by an enemy of the United States,
00:22:25.160 your criticisms may be apt, but you are being used.
00:22:28.920 Still, that doesn't mean you should take away someone's right to speak.
00:22:32.920 It does, however, mean that U.S. national security interests are being hindered by China.
00:22:38.860 Certainly, there are activists in the United States that don't agree with how the U.S. handles their national security interests.
00:22:44.280 But the U.S. government, as an entity unto itself, I know it shouldn't be, is going to say no to TikTok.
00:22:49.800 Surprise, surprise.
00:22:51.000 The moment that happens, Democrats and Republicans find bipartisanship.
00:22:55.780 Ain't that something?
00:22:56.700 When you look at this post from YAF, it is kind of funny to see where we are right now.
00:23:04.820 TikTok targets conservatives, no transparency, vague guidelines.
00:23:09.600 With a bunch of criticism over hate speech and other issues, it's not surprising that conservatives were opposed to it.
00:23:16.280 But here we are today, my friends.
00:23:18.140 With only a few more days, TikTok may be banned forever.
00:23:23.620 No, maybe not.
00:23:24.140 I mean, any reasonable business might just sell off the stake to keep the business going.
00:23:29.460 There is an interesting argument here.
00:23:31.480 TikTok says they'd rather shut down than divest.
00:23:34.440 That kind of says to a lot of people, it ain't about the money.
00:23:38.020 And if it's not about the money, what's it really about?
00:23:41.320 Perhaps it's about collecting data on the American people and pushing weird ideologies to harm young people in this country.
00:23:49.900 Many people criticize the platform, saying, oh, you go to TikTok and you get weird woke stuff.
00:23:56.000 You get Dylan Mulvaney.
00:23:57.740 But in China, Douyin, their counterpart, it's science, math, astronomy. 0.60
00:24:03.700 Because these ideas of wokeness are harmful to young people, there is a real risk China is trying to hurt our younger generation. 0.94
00:24:12.960 But hey, there are still questions around free speech, whether or not China should operate or get free speech.
00:24:19.200 And we'll leave those up to the Supreme Court.
00:24:21.720 But there you have it, my friend.
00:24:22.680 The deadline is looming, and we shall see how it plays out.
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00:24:35.860 And we'll see you all then.
00:24:52.680 Bye.
00:24:53.860 Bye.
00:25:00.280 Bye.
00:25:02.480 Bye.
00:25:04.520 Bye.
00:25:04.600 Bye.
00:25:05.860 Bye.
00:25:05.920 Bye.
00:25:06.580 Bye.
00:25:08.520 Bye.
00:25:09.880 Bye.
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