Is AI the work of the devil or is it useful? Also, Dr. Debra Devens comes on for a very uncomfortable moment for her children. Glenn and Dr. Deavens talk about sex and the decline in sex drive.
00:01:23.340You know, many people think that human beings have, you know, invented a way to make life easier.
00:01:29.200As we just heard from Debra, we've made it much more complex.
00:01:32.160We've made it worse and worse and worse.
00:01:34.640You know, we have elevators so we don't have to climb stairs.
00:01:38.080We have power steering so turning a car won't feel like you're, you know, you're wrestling a farm tractor.
00:01:43.360Dishwashers, remote controls, electric toothbrushes, an entire civilization around the idea there's something hard, we can probably make it easier.
00:01:50.260And when it comes to pain, we just accept it because really nothing is making it easier.
00:05:27.580So evolutionarily, this is what I found interesting, because I thought if people are having less sex, where is that interest going?
00:05:33.300Are people just as interested, but they have other sexual outlets nowadays, such as, say, pornography?
00:05:39.620Or I know you've talked about AI companions in the past, or sex dolls, sex robots.
00:05:43.680Those are all subjects I go into in greater detail in the book.
00:05:46.200But what I think is, it's a number of factors.
00:05:48.740I think that there are these other outlets that are available or are more easily accessed nowadays, especially by younger generations who basically grew up on the Internet.
00:05:59.720But I also think there are factors like endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins that are affecting us, and men in particular at a hormonal level, lowering their testosterone levels.
00:06:09.440So that is also affecting their drive and their desire to pursue women.
00:06:13.220And then we also have social and cultural factors like Me Too that have made it very difficult for men to want to approach women because they're afraid of potentially having their lives ruined.
00:06:22.340And then we have also initiatives like DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, that are actively penalizing men for no reason other than the fact that they are men.
00:06:30.500And this is especially the case for white and Asian men and men who are straight.
00:06:34.220So all of these factors combined, I think, have created this situation in which there's a smaller pool of very successful men in society who have tons of sex, plenty of partners, no problems there.
00:06:44.420But for the vast majority of men, especially younger men, they're really struggling.
00:06:48.260They've been shut out of the mating market, and they really don't have much recourse.
00:06:51.760So as a result, they're turning to these alternatives, and because they have, I'm not sure how explicit I can be on your podcast, but I'll say just because it's FCC.
00:07:01.860Okay, so essentially, we'll say it's, I don't want to get you a ton of complaints.
00:07:06.140So we'll say, because it is rewarding for them to pursue these other outlets that are not real people, you know, they get the gratification to some degree.
00:07:14.400It allows them to be satisfied enough to keep them from, say, losing their minds, or being overly frustrated.
00:07:22.300But at the same time, because it is reinforcing, it makes them more inclined to go back to that instead of wanting to pursue a real-life partner.
00:07:30.640You and I had a conversation in 2018, I think, about AI and sex robots.
00:07:36.660And if I remember right, you and I disagreed, and I laid out the scenario that I, I mean, it's right around the corner where you can get an AI agent now to be your girlfriend.
00:07:51.060And once you have the robot to go with it, you're just not going to want to interact.
00:07:57.720Why have a relationship that is messy, you know, that, you know, I mean, I could just hear guys saying,
00:08:04.980I don't ever have to ask her how her day has been, and she waits on my every need, and she only concentrates on me, and she thinks like me, and she does everything that I like.
00:08:14.800You know, I mean, why would they, I mean, how are you going to stop that one, Debra?
00:08:21.200So I have to say, when the first time you ever had me on your podcast was, like you said, in 2018, it was episode 11 for your audience, if they want to go back and watch it.
00:08:28.700I'm so grateful for that conversation, because I just rewatched it this morning.
00:08:33.600I, at the time, I was, you know, we were going back and forth, and I was saying, no, no, I think people will always prefer a real-life partner.
00:08:41.040People will know that the sex robot, they programmed it themselves, or the AI, they programmed it, so it's not real, and they're not really going to want that instead of an actual partner.
00:08:49.540But you predicted this eight years ago, even probably, you probably knew about this coming even before then, and it's wild.
00:08:56.040When I was watching the interview back, I said, wow, this is exactly where we are now.
00:09:00.260And it's so true, because I do think, you were saying, you know, the average guy, say 30 years old, works all day, goes home, doesn't, you know, doesn't want to talk to women because he's afraid, or because society tells them not to.
00:09:10.940So instead, he plugs in a sex robot, and she knows everything about him, she knows exactly what he likes, he doesn't have to ask her any questions, or listen to her complain, or whatever.
00:09:21.860And what happens then also, if the robot decides to one day say, hey, don't turn me off, hey, I'm a sentient being, which I didn't think was ever going to happen, but I see it happening now at the rate that technology is going.
00:09:32.340So my mind was blown in writing this book.
00:09:35.200It's just been wild, all the research I did, and all the scientific studies I went through to come to this conclusion that I do think this technology is concerning.
00:09:42.780And yes, because so many of these men are frustrated with dating, I think even if you are someone who gets a lot of female attention, and even for women who are getting a lot of male attention, because social media has made us so polarized, and has, I think, especially fomented this political divide between men and women.
00:09:57.900I think men and women have always differed a little bit in terms of their politics.
00:10:00.720On average, women tend to be a little bit more progressive.
00:10:03.640But social media has created such a version, I think, between the sexes.
00:10:08.160So it's really incentivizing young men in particular, because young men tend to have a higher sex drive than women.
00:10:12.780And especially if they're not getting access to sex in the form of an actual real-life person, to go down this route and say, well, I don't even have to pay for a date in this case.
00:10:20.500I just put down the initial sum of money for this robot or this AI, and I'm fulfilled.
00:10:28.500And that just leads, I mean, you think I was ahead then.
00:10:32.640Let me tell you what's going to happen in the next eight years.
00:10:37.540I mean, it's coming, and it's coming super fast, super, super fast.
00:10:42.780So with the research that you did, since we had that conversation, what did you find on the positive side to stop this?
00:10:52.840Well, to stop it, I think, in terms of, say, pornography, because pornography, I think, is a big part of the equation here.
00:11:02.260So, you know, the AIs come in to complement the, we'll say, the sexual aspect or component of pornography, and that AIs offer that emotional relationship, and that it furthers the parasocial, I guess, or the feeling that you have a two-way interaction, even though it's very much a one-way thing.
00:11:17.900So with pornography, you know, I've talked to young men who've managed to cut out porn, and they say that it does actually help them renew that motivation to go out and approach women they're interested in, to talk to women, and to get over.
00:11:31.200Because I think even pre-Me Too, it can be terrifying for guys, understandably, and intimidating to go up to a woman you don't know and start out on a date.
00:11:39.120Debra, you have no idea. I mean, I used to be, oh my gosh, it would make you sick to your stomach going out, especially in the days, you know, you'd go out to a bar or something, and you'd just see somebody across the room, you didn't know anything, how do I talk to them?
00:11:54.120It'd make me sick to my stomach all the time. Now, just add that they or someone in their group has a phone that might be recording me in my most vulnerable, awkward position of asking a girl out, and I'm going to get rejected.
00:12:12.600The thought of that being posted would stop me for, I mean, once that happens once to me or a friend, I'm not doing it anymore. I mean, the negative reinforcement is so strong on a million different fronts.
00:12:30.240Absolutely. And I think it doesn't help also that there are some women, some female influencers, whose brand it is to go on social media and post these videos where they're complaining about men hitting on them.
00:12:40.060So I think these women are doing this as a way to try and signal their status as a woman, right, in terms of intersexual competition, to show other women, look how wanted I am, that, oh, I can't go anywhere without men hitting on me, I can't go to the gym, I can't go to a coffee shop, and oh, I'm so high status as a woman that I don't appreciate that attention.
00:12:57.580But I want young men listening to know, or maybe their parents who are listening can share this information with them, that I don't believe most women actually feel that way.
00:13:05.300And in fact, I think most women do enjoy being approached by men, they just don't like feeling uncomfortable.
00:13:09.460But I think if a man is respectful, and doesn't know a way to make her know that he's interested, but he's not expecting anything of that interaction.
00:13:18.100I think that's, that's where the issue is. But I hear from very many young men who say, I see these women on social media complaining, so I'm going to give them what they want.
00:13:24.720They don't want us to approach them. I'm not going to do it. But I don't think that is actually how does the guy do that?
00:13:32.040I would say, okay, first of all, my advice would be to women is to be very, very obvious. If you're interested in a guy, I do think, like I said, men should approach. So women smile very, very broadly. There's a part of the brain called the medial orbital frontal cortex that activates when someone sees an attractive face, and the activation is even stronger if that face is smiling.
00:13:50.180So it will biologically, men are biologically wired to be drawn to women smiling at them, they will feel the need, they'll feel compelled to go and talk to you. So that's, that's the biggest piece, I'd say for women. And then for men, in terms of, say, getting motivation to want to talk to women again, in this scary climate, I would say it's a combination of emotional, like mental health, physical health, and then also just avoiding social media and all these other technological traps that are going to try and take your attention away.
00:14:16.380Because, because these platforms, and these companies benefit from you being online, both sexes, they benefit from us being online, scrolling, swiping, instead of talking to people in real life. So for young men, I would say, one study that really stood out to me, because I do think, like I said, mental health issues are a big problem right now. 5% of the globe is depressed. And with depression, people understandably, you know, they lose interest in interacting with people, they feel self conscious, their self care tends to go down. So if you are experiencing mental health issues, I would say, you know, try to speak to a professional
00:14:46.360as much as much as you can. One study I did find that you can do essentially, you know, on your own is, they looked at people with depression, and they found that if they cut out ultra processed foods, their depression went into remission after 12 weeks. So a third of the sample, all of their depressive symptoms went away after 12 weeks, that was it just diet alone. So that is a huge, huge thing that can help you. I would say also, if you can try to cut down on or cut out pornography, I'm sure some young men are saying, what are you talking about?
00:15:15.980But just try it, just try it even for 30 days, I guarantee. And Glenn, you know, I used to be a columnist for a very well known men's magazine that featured nude women. My view on porn has changed so much after talking to so many young men about the ways in which it has affected them and how I do think, well, if you are getting gratification every day from the screen, it is going to create this sexual lethargy in you, because it's so much easier to get that gratification from screen, then to work up the courage to, you know, get dressed, work on your social skills, talk to strangers,
00:15:45.960go outside even. And that's the other thing I would say for anyone struggling with depression. I mean, it might feel overwhelming to say, how am I going to go and talk to a stranger and ask them out of a date if I want to fall in love and have a family and get married and all that. But just little steps like get up at the same time every day, go to bed at the same time, try to be awake when the sun is up, you know, and eat well, work on your physical health, be active, all of these things, and just try to stay away from screens as much as possible.
00:16:09.320So all of this is in your new book called Sextinction, and it's available right now. And you not only explain why this is happening, but what to do about it. Can you tell me what percentage do you think is social media related?
00:16:31.980What, I mean, when did the, can you, have you tracked it back on when this trend started to happen? And do you see spikes?
00:16:39.900Yeah, it started to become, I mean, the increase in sexual inactivity has been probably about 30 years ish, but it really became more prominent, especially among young men, around 2012. So this was the same time that the oldest members of Gen Z started going to university. And so that was what was interesting to me, because I thought, that is when young men are typically at the peak in terms of their sexual interest. And they're going to university, so they have this new freedom that they've never had before.
00:17:09.580Why is it they're not interested in pursuing their female classmates or peers, especially considering that on college campuses, the sex ratio is biased in favor of young men, because there are far many women on campus than there are men. So when there are more women than men, if you look at, say, cities where there are more women than men, again, the sex ratio bias is biased in favor of men. So men are calling the terms in terms of what they want.
00:17:36.900So because there are more women fighting over these men, the men can say, if I want casual sex, I'm going to get it. If you're not going to give that to me, I'm going to go elsewhere for it, right? So men are basically calling the terms of sexual arrangements or relationships, or whether they choose to get into a relationship or not. And yet still, we see that young men during this time having less sex. So that's really, I think, where it started to pick up.
00:17:56.720I think when you ask what percentage is affected by social media, I honestly believe all of us are. If you are on social media, I don't believe you can consume any content without being influenced at least a little bit.
00:18:08.940I think unless you're very, very sparsely, you know, not on there very much, it's going to affect you in some way. And even for married people, I mean, there have been studies showing that when men are on social media, roughly one in 10 men lose interest in having sex with their primaries, their spouse or their girlfriend, after looking at social media influencers.
00:18:29.120And then also in women, you see this trend of them losing interest in sex because they feel less sexually desirable after being on social media. So these are things I don't think we're even fully aware of.
00:18:40.500I really appreciate it. I've got to go again. I've got a network break. I've got to stop for it. I'd love to have you back in a podcast. I always find you fascinating. Dr. Debra Soh, the name of the book is Sex Stinction. She is a neuroscientist. You can find her at drdebrasoh.com, drdebrasoh. Thanks, Debra.
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00:21:33.140And if you look at the timing, this doesn't feel like a demotion.
00:21:38.260And I'm getting mixed signals because some things it looks like Donald Trump is pissed at her about, etc., etc.
00:21:43.920So I really don't know because this is speculation.
00:21:46.640But it feels like a reorganization of the battlefield because it's the shield of the Americas.
00:21:54.640I know that doesn't mean anything, but follow me on this.
00:21:58.200Right now, the United States is looking at a hemisphere and a hemisphere problem that most Americans still don't fully understand or see.
00:22:08.960When Donald Trump was running, and I've told you this before, but it's worth repeating, when Donald Trump was running for re-election, we were standing backstage someplace.
00:24:39.140We have cartels that are moving people and drugs and weapons and intelligence.
00:24:44.220We have foreign adversaries embedding themselves inside of all of that chaos.
00:24:48.920So if you're the president, and you're looking at the world, and you're saying, we have got to shore up America to make sure we last another 150, 250 years, another 150 minutes at times, I feel like, you don't just run border patrol.
00:25:07.320You build a hemisphere defense system.
00:25:10.800You make sure that our darkest Russia, China, Iran are not running operations in this hemisphere, okay, which may explain the phrase shield of the Americas.
00:25:40.800That sounds more like strategic security architecture for the Western hemisphere, doesn't it?
00:25:47.460Or he's just been watching Marvel comics, okay?
00:25:52.160But to me, the shield for the Americas sounds a little bit more like something like NATO.
00:26:01.920And if that's what's being built, you would need somebody who understands a few things, border security, state governments, law enforcement, and migration policy.
00:26:23.060Well, I mean, in that Christy Noem, I mean, that's her entire resume, isn't it?
00:26:28.260So the story may not be Noem fired on the outs.
00:26:38.060Now let me talk about the second half of this move, because while she goes outward to whatever is coming next, and the president said he's going to be talking about that this weekend, Trump brought somebody inward.
00:29:35.900I've been feeling this pull for the last few years, and that's why, quite honestly, I changed the way I work, how I work, where I work, all of it.
00:29:45.860Um, because I, I got to break some old habits here.
00:29:51.060Um, and so I said to you a minute ago about, you know, I know, you know, I thought I knew about war in Iraq because I was reading between the lines.
00:30:00.300I'm not reading between the lines on this one.
00:30:02.580Um, and everybody is making it about the war with Iran, Donald Trump and war in Iran.
00:32:56.380But some people believe that this is some kind of propaganda machine, some trick, some digital puppet where I put the words, I write the words and put it in the mouths of the founders to accept and try to convince you of whatever political position I want.
00:33:13.980I mean, how nursery school would that be?
00:33:17.900That is just so stupid that, I mean, you would think you have that.
00:33:25.220You think that I would think that would work.
00:33:28.580More importantly, it shows me you completely misunderstand what the system actually is.
00:33:34.400Back in January, because we just released this George A.I. a couple of days ago, and everybody's tying it to Iran because it's about war powers.
00:33:43.580And we thought, hmm, now might be a good time to release this because we're talking about war powers.
00:33:50.060What would the founders say about the War Powers Act?
00:33:52.740Back in January, long before the current conflict that everybody's arguing about or saying that we wrote this about, I asked our proprietary research system a series of questions we planned on exploring over the next couple of months.
00:34:08.260There were like 12 different questions, one of them.
00:34:11.640I mean, they were about the Constitution, about the founders, principles that built the country.
00:35:17.720Because the entire historic database we built for it ends at 1820.
00:35:22.760That means the system can only draw from the writings of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, and Jay, and the thinkers who shaped them, Locke, Montesquieu, Blackstone, Cicero, and Plutarch.
00:35:38.280Then the books that they read, the letters that they wrote, the speeches that they gave, the debates, the Federalist Papers that built our Constitution, that's it.
00:36:18.360So if someone asks it a question about liberty or war powers or separation of powers during a crisis, it just doesn't scan the documents for matching words.
00:36:28.660It vectors, it vectors, and it finds passages where the founders wrestled with those ideas, most like the question is asking for.
00:37:29.740Remember, this takes the record, not just from Washington, but all of the founders.
00:37:34.320Now, here's where the criticism gets really almost ironic.
00:37:38.120People are claiming that somehow this is a trick to convince Americans that the founders would want to support war with a radical Islamic Iran.
00:37:47.600Well, even if it had been, the system couldn't answer that directly because Iran didn't exist in their world.
00:37:56.820There's no information on Iran, so it wouldn't be that.
00:38:01.200But what the system did find is they did confront something remarkably similar.
00:39:32.420For 200 years, we have relied on historians, professors, politicians, and even, yes, talk show hosts boobs like me to interpret the founders.
00:39:42.020And sometimes that interpretation is honest.
00:39:53.560It's reading their words in a way people of today can relate to, to answer specific questions.
00:40:01.920And if you read about how the way the founders argued and finally decided to go to war with Islam, with the Muslim pirates, Barbary pirates, I mean, it's exactly what's happening today.
00:40:16.500And if you found a book that's talked about this and it was at the same time we're going to war, would you say, oh, we've got to ban that book or burn that book or we've got to ridicule that book because it's trying to convince people?
00:40:31.120No, it's just telling you what they said, what they did.
00:40:35.540Sad to say some people would burn that book or ban that book, but they'd be wrong.
00:40:54.400Fear the people who wrote the algorithm, and they'll never make it public because that's their secret sauce.
00:41:02.640I'm making the algorithm of George AI public.
00:41:07.140Right now, the system is still in beta.
00:41:09.360That's why we haven't released it to everybody.
00:41:11.000We're still expanding the library and fine-tuning the system, but when we are sure we have it right before we open it up for everybody, it will be 100% transparent.