Best of the Program ｜ Guest： Mary Harrington ｜ 6⧸2⧸23
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Summary
Mary Harrington used to be known as Sebastian. She's now a writer and the author of Feminism Against Progress. She used to live in a queer commune calling herself "Sebastian" and spent hours on the message boards angrily defending the queer theory that gender is a performance.
Transcript
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i think i'm off the clock i don't have to do this no you do no you're not officially on vacation
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1995 relieffactor.com relieffactor.com 800-4-relief 800 the number for relief relieffactor.com here's the podcast
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you're listening to the best of the glenn beck program
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the contributing editor for unheard she is the author of feminism against progress
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she used to be known as sebastian her name is mary harrington welcome mary how are you
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i'm very well thank you how are you i am good i i i i don't even remember where you were speaking
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but i i saw a clip of you online and you are you're very clear and clarified uh and uh you have a lot of
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fans uh in my producing staff as well so thank you for coming on it's a pleasure to be here so
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i i started with what you what you said 15 years ago i was living in a queer commune calling myself
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sebastian spent hours on the message boards angrily defending the queer theory belief that gender is a
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performance now you are being canceled for being honest about the differences between uh male and
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female why are you no longer sebastian what happened well as it it was kind of a it was kind of a thought
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experiment changing my name to sebastian i wanted to see what it would be like and it turned out that
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i just didn't really like it very much um i didn't like it felt it felt like i it felt too big of an
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ask in the end to to say to my friends to say to my family more than anything that i you this name
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that you've known me by and this person who you always thought i was that's not who i am anymore and
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i want you to call me something different i just felt like i didn't have the right to ask that
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and it honestly just made me uncomfortable i know that's that there are there are people who don't
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take that there are a great many more people who don't take that view now but but that was that
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was just where i got to with it and also i just didn't really want to be a dude you know i kind
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of i felt i wasn't really sure i wasn't really sure that i wanted to be a woman at the time because
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it seemed that seemed to come with a whole lot of downsides um but as it i was kind of an it was
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an experiment to see what it felt like and then in the end i i i backtracked i walked back sebastian
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fairly quickly and went by sebastian mary for a while which i still kind of like i mean
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sebastian mary have a nice feel to it yeah sure um and you know i wore my hair short and i i wore
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you know whatever whatever clothes i wore and i was kind of a um i was experimental about everything
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when i was 20 i think so many people are i guess but then in the end i fell off the wagon i just i
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just realized it wasn't it just wasn't making me happy and yeah i don't know i don't think i figured
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that out it wasn't like i woke up one day and was like actually this all sucks and i'm going to
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become a reactionary it didn't happen that quickly so it was like um like my whole life
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sort of fell apart in 2008 because the startup i was i founded came to pieces and it was partly my
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fault and i ended up just i lost my whole circle of friends it's like i don't know if you've ever
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had a business fail underneath you but it's like getting divorced oh yeah no it really messes with
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your mind yeah but it's the bet when when you fail in whatever it's the only time you eventually
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look back and say that's when i really grew so if you can make it through it i mean it was a it was
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a world changing just a properly life-changing moment for me because it it really threw into
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release a lot of the things which i a lot of the beliefs that i based what i was doing on and a lot
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of those beliefs really were i guess you would call them woke now although that wasn't what they
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were called then but i was pretty woke about everything and i really kind of followed through
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on all of it you know i just didn't really want i didn't really want any hierarchy or any boundaries
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or any any structure to anything really and inevitably that meant i had a very anarchic
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unstructured unboundary life which is just not very nice especially as you get older so i began to
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realize i was lonely and i was and you know i was getting older and i still was still i still had no
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money and i didn't really know where i was going to be living from one one year to the next and it
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just wasn't very nice and then and it was it was sheer luck really that i mean i remember my
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grandmother gave me some advice we were very close she's a wonderful very wise woman my grandmother
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and she'd been a farmer and a doctor and she was pretty tough um and she looked at me one day when
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i went to visit her and she said you know what mary i think you should grow your hair and get married
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and i was like whoa because at the time i wore my hair extremely short and i was living in queer
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communes and just really a very very very some distance from getting growing my hair and getting married
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but i think i guess it must have stuck in my mind because as it turned out it was really good
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advice that's so so as it turns out looking normal gives you a lot more freedom to be whoever you are
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um and being married actually as it turns out gave me a great a lot more freedom to be so so that is my
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discovery with um religion when it is understood and put in its proper place um that you know for me
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there is my relationship with god and then there's my religion which i choose uh that has the framework
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that helps me be a better person and for me the um a more uh structured system the better for me
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because i have found now that uh freedom really can come from just playing by the rules it's a lot easier
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but they would some people would say that that's you're selling out to the system
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well i don't know i think it's it's just much more that it's very difficult to be creative if you
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don't have any boundaries i mean i'll give you a very recent example it's a very very tiny example
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you know there are a whole lot there are lots of there are lots of people particularly women who
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are afraid that if they if they have kids they'll end up tied down and they won't be able to do
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anything self-expressive right but so so i have i only have one child because i started fairly late
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and my husband i had to work it's half term which is a week of school holidays at the moment here
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and at the beginning of the week my husband took our daughter up to visit the in-laws i had to stay
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i'd stay here and work and i thought oh okay so i'll get all my work done in one day and then i'll do
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whatever the next day or i'll do a whole lot of other things and as it turned out i did not get all of
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my work done in one day i did exactly the same amount of work glenn as i would have done if i'd
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been working during school hours i just spent the rest of the time faffing around as it turns out
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as it turns out the boundary you know although sometimes i think ah i have to i have to i'm in
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the middle of something i don't want to have to put it down to go and collect my daughter and do
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stuff but as it turns out if i don't have that boundary i don't get any more done um and i don't i'm
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just wandering around feeling bored and lonely and and what and it really took me back to being
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25 and having no constraints on my time and just not really getting a whole lot done and it made me
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realize that actually the the the the constraints which i the beneficial you know healthy life-giving
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life-affirming and loving constraints that my family imposes on me they're not they're not an
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obstacle to my creative work now they're they're they're the they're its basic enabling conditions
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and i can't do anything that i do without without that so mary we have we have you could generalize
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back to a face as well you know you put those constraints on yourself and they allow you to
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flourish i think that's that's very true we have we see things now i think as a choice and and when
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my mom and dad got married in the 1950s and my mom was you know in her 20s and early 20s and so when
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the 60s came around she was too uh old for the burn your bra thing uh she was not of the hippie
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generation but she also didn't want to be a part of the the 1950s stay at home she was very creative
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uh everything else and she she ended up uh in suicide and um on massive drug abuse because people
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doctors used to write prescriptions oh you're sad okay take this you'll be fine um and i i think that's
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the way we look at things it's either you are you can do everything a man you're you're you are a man
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if you want to be or you're going to be taking valium at home with the kids and you've got no life
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except this uh you know uh slavery kind of housewife kind of life it's those are both bogus
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aren't they uh-huh well i mean i've i've never met a stay-at-home mom who just spends all of her
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time like vacuuming and and making dinner you know they i've these those women don't you i mean if they
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exist i've never maybe they exist i don't know glenn but i've never met one yeah the stay-at-home
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moms who i know they they organize groups they they get they hang out with one another you know
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they they they all they get stuff done i mean back in the 19th century um bourgeois bourgeois housewives
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were pretty much around the world i mean there's a there's an amazing history my my great friend
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erica bakayoki recently wrote a history of the of women's organizing in 19th century america and just
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how extensive and how networked and how effective these women were at uh bringing about social change
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you know on a huge range of huge range of important issues and a lot of them have you know they were
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issues of faith or they were issues of temperance or they were issues of you know the looking looking
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after the poor or the needy or whatever you know these are women who've got things done and the fact
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that they weren't drawing a salary directly for doing it was neither here nor there you know there are
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there are a great many more ways to be be a part of the larger the larger social fabric than than just
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kind of turning up in an office and drawing down a salary i think there's something there's something
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very limited and very um very narrow-minded about thinking about it thinking about it in that way so
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and i think there's you know it's a it's a tough it's a tough time now especially for those women who
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really do want to be mothers because a lot of them a lot of them end up having to work more than they
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would like to because that flexibility just isn't there and i can think of a great many women who bite
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your arm off at the opportunity to be a stay-at-home mom or even just to work a bit more
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um and it's yeah and we've ended up with less choice in some other ways i think also just to
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not be looked down on i mean i i think one of the worst things that uh that women say um i'm just a
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housewife i'm just a mom what do you mean you're just a mom what does that mean yeah and that's
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because we look down on it what'd you say her mom and every stay-at-home mom i've ever met including
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me will recognize the but you go to a party and somebody asks so what do you do and you say well
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i'm a mom and you can see they're already looking over your shoulder for somebody more interesting
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to talk to you it happens every every stay-at-home mom i've ever met will recognize that but i'll tell
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you something else you get it worse from liberals than you do from conservatives you're much more
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likely in in a relatively conservative circle of people to to have to have the work that you do
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acknowledged and respected and and responded to in a respectful way than you are amongst progressives
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no matter how much lip service they pay to liberalism and to women having choice in fact
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the reality is that in that in terms of that moral hierarchy um the choice the choice to be a mom
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is nowhere this is the best of the glenbeck program and don't forget rate us on itunes
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talking to mary harrington uh who believes the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care
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are the twin poles of the women's movement from the mid uh to the late 18th century onward she says
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feminism of freedom and the feminism of care uh started really kind of going to war with each other
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because women were rightly quite conflicted we need more freedom of movement this new world seems
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premised on the idea that everyone is a free individual and we can be our own self in the market
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that's what freedom is why can't we have that then of course you had the other side because we're women
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and we're mothers we have children you have a baby you have a six-year-old we know what it's like to be needed
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so women argued from that experience of motherhood it's not so simple we need to have this recognized
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and taken into account she says the feminist of freedom won out over the feminism of care
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when contraception and abortion were legalized this is where we get the uh the the cyborg or
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uh transhumanism mary joins us again mary can you take us through that that part of this
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sure i mean my argument is essentially that feminism as such ended in the 1960s and that
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we should think of the sexual revolution not as the sexual revolution but the transhumanist revolution
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now we are 50 years and more in and counting into the transhumanist revolution and that what
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marches under the banner of feminism now is more we should we should think of it more as a kind
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of libertarianism of the body which is to say a belief that we should be free to do whatever we
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want with our bodies and we should be constrained in no way by any any aspect of our bodies including
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our sex um including whether we're born male or female that should not limit us in any way at all
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yeah i was just talking to a really brilliant uh guy yesterday uh spencer clavin and he said um
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uh trans people is really the the beginning of the end because it's going that's all transhumanism
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you control with technology you control absolutely absolutely and that began with the contraceptive pill
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because if you think about it the pill was the first medical technology that didn't set out to fix
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something that was broken like if i've broken my wrist then oh i need i go see a doctor the doctor
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gives me pain meds and spins my arm and i am i'm better again so that assumes like and but but what
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the pill does is the opposite of that or at least it's it's very different to that the pill breaks
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something which is working just fine which is normal female fertility um in the in and it does so in
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the name of personal freedom it does so it does so in order to grant women the freedom to have sex
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without without dealing with unexpected pregnancies or undesired pregnancies i should say so you know
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a pregnancy under those certain you know if you have sex you you should expect normally to get
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pregnant um and and the pill but the pill breaks that and it does so in the name of freedom and
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there have been lots of benefits to that you know it's it allowed it allowed a huge number of women to
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to plan their lives in a way which hadn't been easily possible before so a lot of women went to
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college and got jobs and i mean i i participated in public life in a way which was much more
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difficult previously but it also came with some with some unexpected costs i mean my great friend
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louise perry has written has written a great deal about the downsides of the sexual revolution for
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women um but one of the one of the unexpected effects of the pill was that it didn't it didn't
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prevent unexpected pregnancies nearly as much as people thought it would because what although fewer
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pregnancies were happening relative to the number of people who are having sex for so many people more
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people having casual sex because they could essentially that the absolute number of unplanned
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pregnancies went up and that created a pressure to legalize abortion and i mean we've been talking
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about the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care and you know one a bunch of women who who
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wanted to say women's interests are about um our relationships and our bodies and our children
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and our families and another bunch of freedom was saying women's interests are about defending our right
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to do whatever we want to do just on the same terms as men so that's very crudely the two the two sides
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of that argument and it's very different you know wherever you stand on abortion it's very hard to think
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of a clearer way of saying freedom matters more than care than to say my freedom is so important that i
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will defend it even at the cost of a potential human life so that that's totally reliant on my body
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let me go to um the trans uh argument that is being happen is happening all over the world right now
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um and i think we are uh ahead of you or behind you i guess because i think you guys are actually
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starting to come out of this already um and you know turfs are just a horrible thing uh however it
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seems as though and i think this really is a large part due to you that the turfs are winning
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in uh great britain is that true and and what did you do to change the tide over there that america can
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do well i mean it depends we definitely we've had some successes that's definitely true i'm a long way
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from declaring it a victory right i think i'd be a little bit like george bush when he was standing
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there on that on that thing saying we won we won guys we can all go home um i think it's too early
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to say that we've won and we really are just into the foothills of something here um but if there's
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if there's something that the turfs did i mean the british situation is very different to the american
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one anyway because it culturally we're just kind of i think we're just more pessimistic in britain
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about about being who are being who you want to be right you know that's that's pretty that's pretty
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baked into the american way of looking at yes that people should be able to be who they want to be
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correct and so i can see like that that plugs fairly obviously into into what's going on with
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the trans thing like why shouldn't these people be who they want to be even if that means imagining
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their bodies are meat legos and they can rearrange them as they as they want um and i think i think
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brits are just a little bit more pessimistic about that we're also better organized because we
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had mumsnet which is it's a discussion forum for mums um and a lot of the a lot of the
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very early organizing um to to push back against gender ideology began on mumsnet and has since
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spun out into into campaigning institutions and i think if there have been if there have been
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concrete successes in britain um it's been in realizing that actually where the battle is fought
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is not it's not in the media culture war that stuff is noisy but it doesn't really do bring it
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doesn't move the needle and actually what you need to do is build institutions and you need to lean
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on the levers of power which are which are ngos these days you know most most real power flows
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through flows through ngos and happens prior to voting in the world as it is now and i think in as
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i mean i i don't track american politics super closely but you know in as well where where things cross
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my radar that look as though they're moving the needle in a similar way it's for example the mums
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for liberty movement on school choice um which which to me has some of the same character i mean
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with with american characteristics and much more under american style um slightly different
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priorities but i see i see that as being you know that they're getting they're getting their
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members on school boards and they're and they're leaning on the actual levers of power they aren't just
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they aren't just writing angry think pieces and then looking surprised when nothing changes
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they're showing up and they're and they're doing politics and as a result they're you know they it's
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not you know they're moving the needle and that's that and i guess that's that's how it has to work
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um you know if you're going to if you want to affect change you have to show up are you
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and you have to show up where it matters we we are seeing things you know gender mutilation on children
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and everything else and we are behind you on you are having more success of stopping that over in
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uh great britain than we are um but people are waking up but it it is it's absolute evil what is
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what is happening right now um are you are you uh optimistic or pessimistic uh here on how this all
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works out are we in for a very long battle or we lose or it's gonna be a bumpy ride i think it's
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going to be a bumpy ride and honestly i think it's going to be a bit of both to be honest i i think
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the turfs will win on on pediatric gender i think my friend of mine calls it um genital lobotomies i
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don't think i think that will that will stop because the because the negative side effects are so obvious
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and sooner or later there's just going to be such a cascade of losses that it's going to and so many
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you know the number of the number of brutalized adults who just who are brutalized angry young adults
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will just get so big but it will stop um but i think that the if you if you view the gender
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movement as a kind of spearhead for a wider transhumanist um you know the the onward march
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of biotech into our bodies um i think if if we imagine that if we if we claim victory just because
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they stop doing gender lobotomies on children then when we're not paying attention because the
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stuff the stuff which is coming down the line is in vitro gametogenesis and three parents three
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parent embryos and you know there are experimental surgeries which which splice people with bits of
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animal and genetically engineering pigs so that they can grow human organs for the transplant
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industry and a whole bunch of other stuff you know it just gets more and more baroque and more and
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more disturbing and and that's yeah and and it's very it's very easy to argue the conservative case
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against creating monsters but it's very much harder to argue the conservative case against creating
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supermen and i think that's that's an argument which we which we haven't even begun to have yet
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and people are already trying to do it mary thank you so much for everything say hi to sebastian if you
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ever see him it's been such a pleasure talking to you thank you for having me thank you mary harrington
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uh the book that she wrote is feminism against progress um and she is a contributing editor for the
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uh for unheard and you can follow her at reactionaryfeminist.com you're listening to the
00:23:38.240
best of the glenn beck program you know the there's a story out today it's in our free show prep at
00:23:43.880
glennbeck.com um about why this bud light thing is really working and that's because people are buying
00:23:50.880
it at the at the uh bars and if you if you ask for a bud light in some of these bars people are just
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harassing you they're like oh really and that's really how you do it you just don't do that with
00:24:05.480
your wife at target no well if you want to stay married you certainly don't do right well if you
00:24:10.700
don't want to stay married do it a lot a lot yeah the quote from the is marina cafe in great kills on
00:24:16.920
staten island and they said not only did the sales of bud light tank two months ago but the rare
00:24:22.440
partakers of the product these days find themselves reamed by fellow patrons again like
00:24:28.160
you would go in there enjoy a beer even if you like bud light you just don't want to get in
00:24:33.040
it's just so much easier though like my wife came home the other day and i don't know she needed to
00:24:36.940
buy a blouse for my daughter and hamburger meat and a candle i don't know and she was like i wasn't
00:24:43.420
running to three stores today i don't have time yeah and uh i'm like i just think this is poor
00:24:48.420
planning what you knew you needed that candle a long time ago sister you're going on vacation what do
00:24:53.780
need a candle for when you're gone i'm romancing somebody uh anyway uh so the um uh it's just hard
00:25:03.720
because that just breaks your day up and you've got it it's bud light is easy pull that one or pull
00:25:11.380
that one yeah i don't want that one pour a glass of that the easy substitute is such a key part of
00:25:16.860
this yeah it is and i think too there's just that level of you know you you have to make it so you're
00:25:22.000
not ruining your own life because of their bad decisions and that's tough to do let me ask you
00:25:26.100
do you think this is why hispanics are becoming white supremacists are they oh yeah well the rise
00:25:34.360
of latino white supremacy it's i mean it's right here in black and white what is this vanity fair
00:25:39.780
oh well yeah oh the new yorker even better they're smarter they have cartoons you don't nobody
00:25:44.500
understand even the people who draw them don't understand them right uh so they've got to be right
00:25:49.540
and maybe it's because you know they go for that high thread count sheet and they can't get them
00:25:55.740
in target anymore so they're like where are we gonna go i don't know so the high thread for the
00:26:00.760
clan's outfits well they might not might not really agree with everything but they want the sheets
00:26:05.660
you know okay so it's not an ideological uh affinity to the clan it's the just comfort of nice thread
00:26:13.160
counts i don't know i just know that the new yorker has a whole piece out about how uh we are now
00:26:22.200
you know seeing the rise of hispanic white supremacy because i've noticed that they call hispanics
00:26:29.500
uh brown which i i really hate that term i don't know why brown peoples and they'll call them brown
00:26:38.440
peoples as if black and brown and then they'll call brown peoples people of color all these really
00:26:44.580
weird color in my face it's just pink pink right everyone has it everyone's got some color no one's
00:26:50.260
actually white i don't know if anyone's noticed this um maybe a few exceptions but the the i always
00:26:55.340
find this to be interesting is that when they want to claim hispanics as their own they're people of
00:27:00.260
color but now they can also be white and white supremacists which is really fascinating being colorful
00:27:07.040
right they're no longer pocs no at that point no because they're not agreeing um and there are some
00:27:15.020
people that they have found uh that are you know have racist nazi tattoos now i just don't understand
00:27:23.760
that i mean i think this is this might be a case of you're either really stupid if you just i want to
00:27:33.360
get a nazi tattoo and you're any other color than pig pink okay because nazis don't like color
00:27:41.400
in fact the ideal color is like like spooky ass white with blue eyes okay the kinds that you like
00:27:51.420
look at and like i think they're half wolf that's the ideal okay i guess and uh and you're not you're
00:27:58.320
not that so they're gonna figure that out at some point so i don't know how that works i mean i guess
00:28:03.480
you could be a a non-white a non-white white supremacist if what you're if you're are you
00:28:10.540
just relating this to fascism generally like so here's what they're here's what they're saying this
00:28:14.140
this article is crazy but they say um uh they say that look the hispanics know that they have to
00:28:22.200
be more white and act more white if they want to be successful and so they're just acting white
00:28:30.660
and they're just saying hey we we we want to be white so badly uh and be accepted by the white people
00:28:36.900
that we'll join the clan i got news for you man you're wearing a sheet a lot of white people are not
00:28:43.900
gonna like you the overwhelming majority are gonna think you're insane yeah right so you know right
00:28:49.560
and not because do you not look in the mirror or do you not listen at meetings uh because
00:28:56.300
that's nuts yeah but whether you're white or black or any other color your your acceptance and
00:29:03.480
membership in the kkk automatically makes you insane yeah i agree but i tell you they're pushing it
00:29:08.840
they are pushing it these hispanics are pushing white supremacy like oh crazy stew how do we not just
00:29:15.480
because of target just the new yorker article no well you know i'm a big fan of uh maria and teresa
00:29:24.940
oh uh the yeah the uh the telenovela yeah they're great i watched them all the time do you yeah i do
00:29:35.060
i do i don't think i love them uh you know but i was watching the other day and i was watching teresa
00:29:40.480
and uh and uh there was a scene with teresa and pablo and all of a sudden they start talking about
00:29:48.060
uh about white supremacy and i'm like wait a minute what and teresa was not happy sorry teresa
00:29:55.580
was not happy about it i didn't know you spoke spanish hmm i didn't even know you spoke spanish how
00:30:01.880
do you are there well may i because i i brought the i brought the clip in okay and i'll translate
00:30:08.180
it for you yeah speak spanish i don't know okay good this so uh let me just uh let me translate
00:30:14.500
what happened on teresa okay uh teresa just found pablo wandering the street stop stop stop not yet
00:30:23.760
teresa is i'm trying to set this up this is complex stuff sure teresa just found pablo
00:30:31.460
wandering the streets of mexico city wow you do that very well thank you do speak spanish yeah i
00:30:37.640
do i do i do i do uh and she realizes something's wrong with uh pablo okay now go ahead
00:30:46.920
what is wrong with you pablo you look like you see the ghost i know what it is i saw you last night
00:30:55.240
walking around town with those angry looking men wearing bedsheets and carrying crosses
00:30:59.360
will it crosses it midnight teresa have you never heard of the ku klux klan
00:31:06.040
si i have but it doesn't really make any sense to me they're white supremacists why would they expect
00:31:16.400
except a hispanic man like you they know you're not white don't they no you're not white i they know
00:31:24.980
i love the white race teresa what like hitler like hitler what do you mean well he was a brunette
00:31:34.340
but he knew blondes were better so just like him i may be hispanic but i wish i was white
00:31:40.800
right yes it's true i believe that but why would you join those blanket wearing men
00:31:50.440
teresa we are not freaks the clan is so old-fashioned no you're better than that any hispanic white
00:32:00.700
supremacist worth his salt would only join the patriot front their uniforms are actually stylish
00:32:06.680
and they're definitely not feds i guess i was wrong about you pablo you will never be white
00:32:16.820
wow that was dramatic yeah it was crazy and it just spilled out my living room the other day
00:32:23.260
wow yeah see i didn't know and i know i'm not a i say no i don't speak spanish but like
00:32:28.680
wouldn't the name hitler just translate as hitler i didn't hear hitler no not in spanish is very
00:32:33.700
strange oh okay yeah you know it's like c and yes totally different no i know i okay i know that's
00:32:42.820
how language works in translation but like names usually stay the same not in mexico okay a lot of
00:32:49.320
them change their names a lot of them well i mean that did explain the phenomenon of white
00:32:53.760
supremacist hispanics and they're pushing it hard they're pushing it really are you know that damn
00:32:59.840
telemundo damn well there it is you've got the truth finally you need to do a new podcast on just
00:33:08.880
i'm gonna do it you know like they did those succession recaps uh-huh the what you know like
00:33:13.040
succession the show that just ended they do like a daily or weekly podcast on reviewing what
00:33:17.100
happened you could do that for these telenovela in spanish of course we could do that yeah we
00:33:23.900
could do that uh would you like me to when i get back sure yeah we'll just we'll just tape a few
00:33:29.920
episodes and then i'll come and translate them will you be able to uh keep up with it on your
00:33:34.060
vacation will you still watch them you don't want to miss any developments oh i can watch those things
00:33:39.940
you know all the time okay all the time good especially maria marie marie marie's tonight on maria