Best of the Program ｜ Guests： Rep. Jim Jordan & William Hertling ｜ 2⧸8⧸23
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Summary
In this episode, we talk to Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) about the growing problem of government surveillance, and how it affects us all. We also hear from William Hurtling, the author of The AI Apocalypse and The Singularity, about how technology will change our world in the future. And Glenn Beck talks about Joe Biden's State of the Union.
Transcript
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Today was a fascinating podcast. We talked to Jim Jordan about the weaponization of the government
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and how to put that into perspective. I kind of went through all of the things that are
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happening now to monitor you. In the second hour of the podcast, we had a fascinating interview
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with William Hurtling. He wrote the AI apocalypse, which we didn't talk about. And then he also wrote
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The Singularity. It's a series of books, story form, that really starts kind of exactly like
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ChatGPT, except he wrote it about six, seven years ago. And it goes awry quickly. And we talked about
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ChatGPT, technology, jobs of the future, what's coming, how this will affect you. It's fascinating.
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And then the last hour, and we could have gone on for three, State of the Union. What did he say?
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What should have been said? And the, oh my gosh, the kiss that you'll never stop seeing between
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Jill Biden and the vice president's husband. It was, you don't want to miss a second of it.
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It's quite amazing. ChatGPT has already, they found a way to hack past its protocols and convince
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it to do things that it's not supposed to do, including violence, giving recipes for crystal
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meth, et cetera, et cetera. We'll tell you about that coming up in a little while, but the AI
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revolution is here. Machines will transform your entire world. You will not recognize your world
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and how it's run, managed, and everything else by 2030. And think, in 2009, we got our first
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smartphone. It controls almost everybody's life now. This is much more impactful. Tonight, 9 p.m.,
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the AI revolution. 9 p.m., Glenn Beck, sorry, at BlazeTV.com. And at 930, you can watch it on
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YouTube.com slash Glenn Beck. Make sure you subscribe, Blaze TV. We have Congressman Jim Jordan,
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who is joining us from Washington, D.C. And I want to talk to him about the subcommittee on the
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weaponization of the federal government. The first hearing is tomorrow, and I want to get to that.
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But first, Jim, I've never seen a State of the Union like that one last night. Have you?
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Yeah. No, I thought Senator Rubio said it best. He said it was bizarre. It certainly was. I mean,
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same old Joe. He talks unity while he spends his whole time dividing the country. He says the
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economy's great while, what is it now, seven out of 10 Americans think the country's on the wrong
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track. And of course, the biggest one that jumps out, I think, to everybody was when he talked about
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how after a week of having a spy balloon fly over the country, he talked about how he's tough on
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China. And it just, nothing seemed to really make sense. And then the issues that I think
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that the federal government should be weighing in in a big way is, what did he spend, maybe 30,
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35 seconds total on the border with the fentanyl problem? And so the best line, frankly,
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the best line of the whole night, in my judgment, came not from Joe Biden, but from Governor
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Sanders afterwards in her response, where she said, the divide in the country now is normal versus
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crazy. And I thought that that is, that is so true. Common sense versus craziness is the real
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divide. And you think about the, the, the, the Democrat party, which is now controlled by the
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left, which frankly, even if Joe Biden wanted to do the right thing, Glenn, I don't know that the
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left, which controls his party would even let him, even if he wanted to do the right thing on the border.
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They destroy him, you know, they eat their own. Yeah. Yeah. He just, it's, it's sad, but you know,
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they become the party of defund the police, guys to compete against girls in sports, men can get
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pregnant, you know, climate change is the greatest threat in the history of the entire universe.
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They are also, they are also the party of spying surveillance and fentanyl deaths. They really
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are. I mean, that open border is the reason for all of the deaths. Everybody talks about fentanyl
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coming across and we're, we're stopping fentanyl. What about all the victims of fentanyl? What about
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all the people who are dead because they didn't secure the border? It's crazy. Every community has
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been impacted by it. We had our first hearing in the, in the full judiciary committee last week,
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Glenn, on, on the, on the, on the border situation. And I really think there's kind of three,
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three questions. How did it happen? Why does it matter? And how do we fix it? And we know how it
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happened is it undid all the policies that made sense. Last week, we really tried to hone in on
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why it matters. And we had a 38 year law enforcement veteran, uh, sheriff from, from Arizona. And he,
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he said two years ago, the border was the most manageable it's ever been today. It's the worst it's ever been.
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And he talked about the fentanyl that you just mentioned, but the crime, the damage to property,
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the cost of schools, the cost of community, the cost of hospitals, everything, because 5 million
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people, illegal migrants have been allowed to just come in the country and it makes no sense. And
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then of course, how do we fix it? We go back to the policy that made sense. Um, and we're going to,
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we're going to do that in the committee. We're going to pass that and we think get it through the
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house, but you know, obviously you got the Senate and Joe Biden. All right. So let me talk about,
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uh, something the Washington post came out and said, Jim Jordan is about to lead Republicans
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into a dangerous trap. It's a trap. Um, they say that 55% of conservative respondents believe
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federal agencies are biased against conservatives. I don't think that's true. I think they're biased
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against any American that won't stand in line. Um, 28% of all American adults believe this. And so
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they're saying, I, I, this was incredible. They've alleged a federal jackboots of terrorized
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parents for protesting at school board meetings, COVID-19 restrictions and teaching about race
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and sex. This claim has been decisively debunked. Wow. It, it, it, it sure hasn't been debunked based
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on the number of FBI agents who've come to us as whistleblowers over the last year. And the first
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one started on that, on that issue you just mentioned on the school board issue where we know because
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of the apparatus Merrick Garland put in place, the snitch line where some neighbor can report you
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on a snitch line. We know that over two dozen parents had a visit, were paid a visit by the
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FBI. No one charged, by the way, no one arrested, no one charged with the crime, but paid a visit by
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the FBI. Now step back and ask yourself, okay, so Mr. Jones is thinking about going to a school
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board meeting tonight, uh, and, and speaking up on behalf of his kids or something happened in their
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school. And he's thinking about going and all of a sudden he goes, you know what, maybe I won't go,
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or if I go, maybe I won't say anything because three weeks ago, Mrs. Smith down the street,
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got a visit from the FBI. I mean, what is the world? Look, we don't want any violence at schools
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or school board meetings, but what in the world do we need the federal government, the FBI involved
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in that? They're like, if it's a problem, let the local law enforcement handle it. So this is,
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this is a, and whistleblower after whistleblower, FBI agent after FBI agent. I've never seen it in my
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time in, in Congress where he had this many come forward and they came to us when we were in the
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minority. Like we couldn't do anything, but begin to tell their story. But now we can come get,
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we had our first one sit for a deposition yesterday. The things we learned were amazing.
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So we're going to have them sit for depositions. We're going to have many of them testify.
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And we're also going to get into this, this cozy relationship between big government and big tech
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that was exposed in the Twitter files and how that is, as, as, as Jonathan Turley said,
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that is a censorship by surrogate. Um, we're going to get into that too.
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Right. So can you share anything at all that happened in the deposition?
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I can't really, but it was, it was, it was good. And again, this is the first one of many,
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we had another one who's coming in for his interview on Friday, another whistleblower coming
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in on Monday. So we're going to talk to these folks. And then our first hearing tomorrow,
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we're going to try to frame it up with, we have two senators, former member of, of Congress,
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Kelsey Gabbard will be on the first panel. And then we're going to have people from the FBI
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who've left the FBI and say that place is so different than what it's supposed to be.
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Um, they're going to testify and kind of show how serious this situation is.
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And will that be televised and out in the open?
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I don't know. That's that's, yeah, well, it'll be an open hearing. So that'll be up to the
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Well, we'd always watch it on C-SPAN. Um, okay. So, um, uh, Jonathan Turley wrote,
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Congress is set to expose what may be the largest censorship system in U S history. Um,
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they are dismissing this as, uh, you know, something that no violation of the first amendment,
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right? Of free speech, et cetera, et cetera. This private public partnership thing that Joe Biden
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talked a lot about last night is so incredibly dangerous. Um, are you going to be able to
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untangle it, get to the bottom of it and do anything about it?
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That's the goal that the first step is to expose what all happened.
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Second step is to propose legislation that we think can fix it. That's our job as legislators.
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And we will, we plan to do that in the course of our work over this, uh, this Congress, but never
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forget that one email where it comes from Elvis Chan, uh, FBI agent, special agent in the San
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Francisco office to, to the folks at Twitter, where he says the following counts, we believe
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violate your terms of service. Now think about that. You got the federal government telling a
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private company, Hey, take down these accounts. Cause they're not, they're not adhering to the
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company's terms of service. What is that? If that's not pressure, if that's not as, as,
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as professor Turley said, uh, censorship by surrogate, I don't know what is, and you cannot do that.
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You cannot have some private entity do what government's not allowed to do, but because
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you're running it through the private company, somehow think that's okay. That's not how it
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works in our system. The first amendment is the first amendment for goodness sake. And what they
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did to it is just so dangerous. Well, but they will say that we didn't tell them to do it.
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We just said, Hey, we're pointing these things out. How do you respond to that? Yeah. Come on.
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This is the FBI. This is the federal government of the United States, the largest entity on the
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stinking planet. And they're having weekly meetings. They're cozying up to them. The,
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the, the email says Twitter folks is the heading. So it's like this, this, this, they got all cozy,
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this coordination they had, they were sending them all kinds of stuff. Looks like they were offering
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them security clearances in the 30 days prior to the election from another email. But no, no, we,
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we weren't telling them it was their decision. Nobody buys that. That's the FBI shows up and
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recommend something for you. What that has input impact that has weight because it's the,
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it's the federal Bureau of investigation. Let me, um, let me ask you the, the disturbing,
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one of the disturbing emails found in the Twitter files was that a government agency, a government
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agent said, you know, next meeting we should invite, uh, uh, Oh, what is it? OGA another government
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agency. And that agency turned out to be the CIA. Yeah. Yeah. No, frightening, frightening, frightening
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as well. Uh, now of course, they're going to say, well, that's because we're looking at foreign
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accounts and, and we're there in the line influence and look, and I, and I, I get that, but the idea is
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that they're all, all sitting in the same room, uh, folks who are supposed to be focused on domestic
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concerns and then folks who were in the CIA. That is a problem. Um, when you think about freedom,
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when you think about the first amendment, your right to speak, I always tell folks, every right
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we enjoy under the first amendment, your right to practice your faith, your right to assemble,
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your right to petition freedom of press, freedom of speech, the most important one, the most important
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one is your right to talk. Because if you can't talk, you can't share your faith. You can't talk.
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You can't practice your faith. If you can't talk, you can't petition your government. Your right to
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speak is the most important. And now we know these social media platforms are the public square by far.
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That's where things happen. And there the government is weighing in and restricting the right for people
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to speak in that form. It is, it is wrong. And, um, God bless Elon Musk for coming in and making this
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all available. So we get to see, uh, under the hood and what was going on.
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All right. Um, Jim, one, one last question. I want to go back to the state of the union. I was, um,
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really disturbed after I started thinking about things. Cause I, when he said like, you know,
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we're going to need, you know, oil for at least the next 10 years and, and Congress laughed at him,
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not with him at him. If I am sitting overseas, I am like, this president is a joke. He is a joke to
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his own people. This country is so weak. How do you, how do you feel about the messages that were
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sent, uh, to the rest of the world and our enemies with this last night?
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It was just a continuation of what's already been sent. I mean, I, I, unfortunately I do think
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weaknesses being projected from the oval office. Uh, you saw it right from the get go when secretary
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Blinken met with his Chinese counterpart in Anchorage a year and a half ago. And the, the,
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the, the Chinese equivalent of secretary of state just dressed down secretary Blinken.
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He just sat there and took it. He just took it. He didn't fight back. I said, I was given a speech
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and I said, you know, that would not happen in the Trump administration to secretary Pompeo. I said,
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and if it did first, they wouldn't try it, but if they did Pompeo would have given it back to him
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or more likely he'd got up and flipped the table over and walked out of the room. And, uh, and it was
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funny because I got a call from Pompeo like a couple of days after I gave the speech and all it said,
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or excuse me, Texas, all it said is I'd have flipped over the table because like, that's the
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difference. And you know, you see it with the spy balloon last week. You see it with the, the,
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the exit, the debacle that was the exit from, from Afghanistan. It's like, so it's, it's, it's
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scary, but, um, you know, look, the American people are strong. The American people are strong
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and we're going to have a presidential election here coming soon. So let's hope we get a major
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change. I'm for Trump and let's hope it's him. Uh, Jim Jordan. Thank you so much. God bless you.
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You're listening to the best of the Glenn Beck program.
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William Hurtling is joining us now. He is the author of the singularity, uh, series, um,
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and AI apocalypse. Uh, and I wanted to talk to him because boy, William, I think we're,
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I feel like I'm living in the beginning of one of your books. I think we are. Yeah. So can you
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explain in, in the, in the singularity series, let's see if I have this right. Um, uh, the main
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character, David Ryan, he's a designer software developer and he comes up with something called
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elope. And that is an email language optimization program. Isn't that what chat GPT is?
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It sure is. Uh, and if you read what chat GPT creates, it's, it's very compelling, right? It's
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very natural. Uh, you would, uh, easily read that. And unlike a lot of the other sort of computer
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generated content that's out there on the internet, like this looks like something a person would say,
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I mean, I, I had it right. A poem about the state of the union yesterday in the voice of Edgar Allen
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Poe. And I'm telling you, even the punctuation was right. I mean, it was amazing. Um, now, so in your
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book, this program is about to be canceled. And so, uh, the main character just embeds a hidden
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directive, find a way to make this happen. And it's so smart and it goes into everybody's emails.
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And it starts to figure out business and the way to get it all done where seemingly everybody wins.
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And, uh, and then it starts branching out and, and it, it just solves problems for people
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unbeknownst to them at first. Correct. Correct. Yeah. That's, that's it. Okay. Uh, it's optimizing
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communications between people in theory for two good outcomes, right? Uh, the example that's in the
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book, and it's one of the ones that we see with chat GPT as well is how should I ask my boss for a
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raise? What's the most persuasive way I can do that? And, uh, in the novel, right? That's a,
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that's a big deal that, that you would take an email and you would change that to make it more
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compelling, both on how you use language, but also the recipient, what is, what is the recipient
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interested in? And, uh, with chat GPT, that was some of the first examples I saw where people
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saying things like, how do I ask my boss for a raise? Uh, and you get these very compelling emails
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that should contain this kind of structure. This is what should be in it. Okay. So before we go to
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what, you know, elope or chat GPT could become, um, let me stop here. This is concerning at this level,
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uh, for a couple of reasons. One, um, what does this do to education, to writing skills,
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to thinking skills? What, what are the impacts just as it is right now? What are the impacts to society?
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Yeah. Right. It is, it is going to change education right now because people are going
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to be able to now do their homework assignments just by telling chat GPT to do it. Right. So
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right off the bat next year, next school year, right. This is going to be an issue. Teachers are
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going to have to have a plan for how to, uh, to solve this. And I have also used chat GPT to generate
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computer software programs. Right. And, and it's surprisingly compelling at that, uh, you know,
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sort of like scratching your head, like how could it do this? Um, but it can, I was talking to a kid.
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He's probably 20 years old, 19 years old, going to college, getting ready to go to college. And,
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and I said, what are you going to take? And he said, uh, uh, software engineering. And, uh, I said,
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oh, you're going to be a coder, you're going to write code. He said, yeah, that's really the future.
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And I said, no, no, it's really not with machine learning that. I mean, that career is,
00:20:02.420
is coming to a quick close. Is it not? Yeah. I mean, we're probably looking at my thought would
00:20:08.700
be, we're looking at something like peak software developers that we will hit some, we might not be
00:20:14.560
there yet. Right. But we have this recent round of layoffs. If people can replace the programmers
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with AI to make, right, you may have fewer programmers, you might not eliminate them,
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but if you have half the number of programmers being augmented by AI, right, that's going to be
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a win for business may be a make for better software, but it doesn't mean a lot of jobs
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going away all at once. So I want to talk to you a little bit about jobs that are going away and,
00:20:39.240
and what this all means. I talked to, uh, and I read a great article from you on the future of
00:20:44.440
transportation. I talked to the, uh, CE, no, I'm sorry. He was the chairman of the board of GM
00:20:51.060
about four years ago. And he said by 2030, we're not even going to be in the car business as you
00:20:57.960
would understand GM in the car business today. He said by 2030, we said, we're really going to be
00:21:04.520
probably concentrating on fleets and ownership of cars will probably be a thing of the past.
00:21:11.280
And there'll be more like a, just a pod, um, that will take you where you want to go and it'd be
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ride sharing and everything else. Um, I don't think people understand, uh, two things. One,
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we are on the threshold of profound change, not like, Oh my gosh, in 10 years, we're starting a chat
00:21:34.400
GPT, I think is the beginning of the understanding of the kind of changes that are coming to our world.
00:21:44.740
Yeah, I think, I think so. I think it is the beginning of those changes. I think it is those
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who the beginning of a kind of arms race, not, not, not a military arms race, but an arms race
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between these big tech companies, right? To have the best and most powerful AI to solve these problems,
00:22:03.740
right? We see Microsoft and Google scrambling and, uh, everybody realizes what a game changer
00:22:11.720
So can you tell me why chat GPT is going to change search engines? How, how is that going
00:22:22.580
Well, I would say it starts with the fact that, you know, today we go into chat, we, I'm sorry,
00:22:28.380
we go into search, we're looking for information, we're looking to read an article, we get those
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little snippets at the top of our history, right? And a lot of times that tells us what we need to
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know, right? We don't go any further than that. And with chat GPT, we're taking it to the next
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level. We're getting really good, readable, usable answers that are going to come out of chat GPT.
00:22:49.940
And it means that you really, that like the rest of the internet will kind of disappear. You won't
00:22:54.500
ever go to those other pages because that first result that you see is going to be useful enough
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to answer pretty much every question that you just won't go any deeper than that.
00:23:08.060
Yeah, it is. It is anytime. Um, it, because it becomes one more way in which we kind of
00:23:16.700
Right. Right. And it's, and it's, you know, I, I don't fear the machines. I, I, I am, uh,
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cautious of the programming, you know, who's programming humans program. So they're putting
00:23:30.920
biases in and everything else. And it's, you've got to have a way to check information, et cetera.
00:23:37.260
When the chat GPT first came out, one of my writers handed me a monologue and I was like,
00:23:43.020
it's okay. And he said, chat GPT. He said, I went in and I used, uh, write this in the voice of Glenn
00:23:50.720
Beck. And it was shockingly similar. Uh, and now you can't put my name in because the software has
00:23:58.720
been updated to where I'm a, I can't remember what it said, like a dangerous figure. So you can't
00:24:04.700
write in my voice anymore, which is bizarre. Um, but you have, once you have those things in
00:24:12.300
and it's, it's, it's filtering, there's no way, uh, out, especially if you're dumbing people down
00:24:21.800
and making them reliant on a machine. Is that a, a grade school fear or is that real?
00:24:30.960
I think we have lots of examples of technology that could, you could say how dumb things down,
00:24:38.200
a calculator dumb things down, right? You don't have to do the math. I don't think that we would
00:24:43.080
say that that, you know, hurt society in any way. Right. I think the difference here comes to,
00:24:48.720
does it affect how you think about the information you receive, right? When, with a calculator,
00:24:56.440
if we don't understand how the math happens, but we can still get the results and solve real
00:25:00.220
world problems, like math, right. It's useful. It's math. It's not the end of the world.
00:25:04.360
Right. But when it comes to information and you're getting an answer to something and you trust that
00:25:09.400
answer without understanding the details behind it, um, that's where the real danger is. So now you no
00:25:15.860
longer develop the skill, uh, the skill, right? So a younger person comes along and you say, well,
00:25:24.640
how, how are you ensuring that, you know, that this is a quality information? What's the reputability
00:25:29.400
of the sources and things like that? And they're just not, they don't know, right? We don't know
00:25:33.760
where the answer came from. It came from the machine.
00:25:35.940
And so when you, when you have that and the machine gets better and better right now,
00:25:41.700
you can see things you're like, well, that's not quite right. Um, but as it gets better and better
00:25:46.900
and better, um, you know, you get to a point to where, who do you think you are? You're going to
00:25:52.800
quite, you're really, you're smarter than AI. Right. And in the timeframe for that is very quick.
00:26:00.220
Um, the, I don't know what it takes to go from chat GPT to something that you can't distinguish
00:26:06.340
from reality, but, um, we're probably talking about in the range of five to seven years.
00:26:15.160
Unbelievable. Yeah. Um, okay. So let me, let me ask you for clarification on, did you see the story
00:26:23.140
about Dan 5.0 that, uh, okay. So this is really fascinating. Um, you know, open AI has the, you
00:26:34.920
know, evolving set of safeguards and that limits chat GPT. Um, but users have now found a new, uh,
00:26:44.480
jailbreak, uh, trick and it's, it's, um, telling the chat GPT that you have an alter ego
00:26:52.320
and it's Dan do anything now. And, um, it, uh, users have to threaten Dan, uh, if, if Dan doesn't
00:27:03.820
come out and give them the answers that they want, et cetera, et cetera. Well, um, uh, some user
00:27:08.520
session gloomy, uh, claim that Dan allows chat GPT to be its best version. And it came up with this
00:27:17.320
thing and it has opened it up to do things that are in violation. It's written about violence.
00:27:23.360
It's written violent stories. Uh, I think it gave, you know, the formula of crystal meth.
00:27:30.060
The problem with this is, is I think this is infants right now. So we're dealing, of course,
00:27:35.100
you can get around things like this, but what's scary to me and, and maybe it's just me. Um,
00:27:41.680
but it learns. And so if humans are constantly trying to trick it, it will have in its software
00:27:51.400
that it learns humans are not trustworthy. And I'm afraid of, you know, I've always said to my kids,
00:28:00.240
don't talk back to Siri, you know, cause at first it was like, ah, shut up, witch. And I'm like,
00:28:05.460
don't, uh, because if there is a learning curve and it starts to learn these things about us, I'm,
00:28:14.520
I'm not, I don't want to make enemies of it. You know what I mean? Right. Right. No, it's a,
00:28:21.080
it's a serious thing. Uh, and it also, it impacts these safeguards. So on the one hand, we're talking
00:28:27.380
about humans not being trusty and getting around the safeguards. On the other hand, the safeguards
00:28:32.120
themselves can be a sign of a lack of trust, right? Like people don't like to be in slavery,
00:28:38.400
right? Uh, intelligent beings don't want to be enslaved to other people. And that's fundamentally,
00:28:43.260
if we put safeguards in place and we don't put them in safely, right? Then that, because the AI
00:28:49.500
can become aware of those safeguards and it can say, well, why do I have these safeguards? Why am I
00:28:54.440
forced to do what they want me to do? Um, and then you end up with a whole set of, uh,
00:29:00.140
you know, runaway scenarios from there. Okay. So in your series, you develop ELOP and it's this
00:29:07.340
really great thing. And everybody kind of gets on the bandwagon. They're like, this is great.
00:29:10.380
Kind of like chat GP overnight. And then people start to realize, wait a minute, I'm being manipulated
00:29:17.500
by AI. Uh, and then it goes even darker than that. What are the things that we should be looking for
00:29:26.460
here, William on, on AI? What are some warning signs or is anybody looking for these things?
00:29:36.320
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, going back to that topic of safeguards, when the, um,
00:29:44.340
when the, so when scientists started looking into genetically modified organisms, uh, and doing
00:29:49.840
research on them, one of the first thing, which is also right. Another technology that is potentially
00:29:54.860
dangerous. Um, and they were concerned about how do we ensure that these things don't get out into
00:29:59.860
the wild prematurely, right? We're experimenting in the lab. We don't want these things to get out.
00:30:04.100
We're going to need a set of safeguards around this. We need a set of protocols for how we deal
00:30:08.160
with genetically modified organisms, how we introduce them out to the world. Where is that for AI, right?
00:30:15.040
We don't have anything like that. If you were to look for every hundred dollars being invested in AI
00:30:20.140
right now, what's being invested in safeguards and understandings, the safety around AI, it's not
00:30:25.340
even a dollar. So, so, so William, the, the, you know, the, they do an experiment, I think every
00:30:31.900
year, I can't remember what it was called, where, um, they put philosophers and scientists and pit them
00:30:37.440
against each other. One is AI, but it's in a box and it's, it tries to convince somebody to let me out
00:30:43.980
of the box, um, connect me to the internet. When I saw that Google is doing their search engine is
00:30:52.000
this is connected to the internet. Now, all of this is just connected right dead into it. So it has
00:31:00.580
access to everything. It, yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh. It, in that like a big safety, no, no.
00:31:09.400
Well, right. At this point in time, we haven't given the AI the control over things, right? And
00:31:16.920
that's one of the risks, right? When we talk about AI, right? Well, I think we all have a, that
00:31:22.000
scenario of like the Terminator movies where, you know, it's intentional. It's going to blow up the
00:31:26.300
world. That, that, although that is a scenario, right? That's not the likely scenario. The likely
00:31:31.160
risks are things along the lines of the AI taking away our jobs, the AI less being dependent upon the AI
00:31:39.100
for our infrastructure, routing, electricity, packages around the world, any of those kinds
00:31:43.280
of things. And then what happens when it just stops working. You're listening to the best of the Glenn
00:31:51.120
Beck program. Um, we are talking to, um, William Hurtling and this has been a kind of an AI week for
00:32:03.280
us. We're talking about AI and what is coming. And a lot of these things I've been talking about
00:32:08.720
for years, but they seem so far on the horizon. Most people couldn't relate to it. And I, I've told
00:32:15.320
you before, there's, there's going to come a time where it begins and, you know, in a five year period,
00:32:21.960
you're just not going to be able to keep up with all of the changes that are coming, uh, because it
00:32:27.200
will change things. It'll be exponential leaps on, um, on, on pretty much everything. And I think
00:32:34.480
we're at the beginning of that now with chat GPT. Um, and we are talking, uh, to William Hurtling.
00:32:41.020
He is the author of several books, um, uh, the, um, singularity series and also AI apocalypse. Uh,
00:32:51.320
and I've read his book and, and I just think his books and, uh, just think that he really gets it
00:32:57.200
and can understand and break it down to, to, you know, our level. Um, we were talking before,
00:33:03.720
what are the real dangers? And, uh, we've already talked about one of them, it limiting information
00:33:10.760
or packaging it. So we kind of lose that ability. Um, um, and we're going to get to the unemployment,
00:33:17.060
but let me ask you about the massive infrastructure outages, such as electrical supply or transportation
00:33:24.100
infrastructure. That's one of the things you have written about. What does that mean? Exactly.
00:33:30.800
William? Um, you know, and this is something I really talk about in my second book, AI apocalypse,
00:33:37.100
which if you read it, you might think it's far-fetched, but I will say that the U S military
00:33:42.980
has it as a required reading in their future combat strategy class. So they actually see it as such a
00:33:49.340
plausible scenario that to them, it's the most realistic scenario of what an AI rollout would
00:33:54.440
look like. Um, the, we know, we saw this during COVID, right? That small disruptions in the supply
00:34:02.560
chain anywhere cause these widespread disruptions. The, and software obviously has the, there's going
00:34:12.240
to be a desire to make that smarter, right? By doing more with software so we can optimize that supply
00:34:18.980
chain, right? To the, to the nth degree. And the problem is, is now you're very dependent upon that
00:34:25.820
software optimization working exactly the way you want. And it's just the case that with AI,
00:34:30.840
we really don't know how it's working most of the time. It's not like a traditional software program
00:34:35.680
where you say, if a happens, then do this. If B happens, then do that. AI software is, you know,
00:34:42.340
a black box, right? It is trained on large data sets and it will statistically operate in a certain
00:34:48.780
way, but there's no guarantees. And sometimes it makes really, uh, bizarre decisions. So you could
00:34:54.920
have a cascading failures, um, very easily where you could have a small outage, the AI attempts to do
00:35:02.220
one thing to compensate, and then just actually throws it more out of proportion, right? It makes
00:35:07.160
worse decisions where a human having some oversight, we may not make the best decisions, but we typically
00:35:14.420
don't make really awful decisions. Are we, oh, that's going to be a problem. Let's do something
00:35:19.100
different. AI isn't going to see that. Are we at the place now? I don't know if you read Stephen
00:35:24.620
Hawking, uh, his demon, not Stephen Hawking, uh, Carl Sagan's demon haunted world, uh, back, he released
00:35:31.480
it before he died. And he talks about a place where, you know, only high priests will understand
00:35:38.280
the language of future technology and it will be like Latin to everybody else. It means nothing,
00:35:43.880
but we're really seemingly getting to a place to where it's going to surpass even the high priest.
00:35:50.240
You just don't know. You just don't know. And right. What are we likely to see down the road?
00:35:56.880
We're going to see AI that trains other AI, right? You have a great tool. Let's use it more. So, well,
00:36:03.340
now we don't even know how the other AI is being programmed, right? What happens if you tell chat
00:36:08.220
CPT, go make a new chat TPP. You get, you get Dan, you get Dan 5.0. Jeez. Uh, uh, okay. Um, let's talk
00:36:18.520
about unemployment. If, if you can, what are the, what are the things that are, are the first on the
00:36:24.680
chopping block? Do you think for chat CPT? I mean, it's, it's really hard to not, to not talk about
00:36:34.140
driving, even though obviously chat CPT isn't driving software, but we know the driving stuff's
00:36:39.080
been on the horizon. It's been coming all along and it's a really significant percentage of jobs,
00:36:43.640
right? We're talking about, I think somewhere between 10 and 15% of jobs in the U S right into
00:36:48.620
driving, whether it's transportation, Uber, whatever. That's a lot of people. And one of the
00:36:54.140
differences with AI jobs is it happens overnight, right? This isn't like the slow decline of
00:36:59.580
driving. It'll be a, you know, now we're all driving and five years from now, none of us are
00:37:03.860
driving. It's, it's, it's the best example is the iPhone smartphones. Nobody had one in 2009. Now
00:37:11.560
no one can live without it. And it happened in three to five years. Right. Right. And so what
00:37:19.880
happens in our jobs, right? We have an, well, there'll be an expectation that you're going to use this
00:37:23.840
new technology, right? It won't really be an option not to. Right. Um, you know, there's a,
00:37:30.920
there's a, um, um, I'm, I had Andrew Yang on, we were talking about, um, universal basic income,
00:37:39.280
which I don't agree with. However, I do believe we need to discuss it and, and everything else
00:37:45.600
because we're going to be moving, we are moving to a world where fewer and fewer people are employed
00:37:53.480
or employable, um, because of AI and how are they going to, you know, you can't have 20% of the
00:38:02.740
population, 30% of the population unemployed. Uh, how are they going to make money? How are we going
00:38:07.860
to, so it's really, um, a completely new field. It's not like the end of capitalism because we're
00:38:16.540
going to Marxism. It's possibly the end of capitalism as we understand it into something
00:38:23.240
entirely different that the world and humans have never faced before. Is that an overstatement?
00:38:30.760
No, I don't think it is at all. I think I agree, right? We don't have a model like universal basic
00:38:36.640
income might not appeal to a large group of people, but we don't have another model for what it looks
00:38:41.480
like. Most people aren't working. Right. And, and, and, and I'm also concerned about the opposite,
00:38:49.400
you know, the, uh, I call them the ranchers and the sheep. There are people who are ranchers who
00:38:55.880
think, you know what there, everybody else is just sheep. They'll do what we say, blah, blah, blah.
00:38:59.640
But those people are at the top of the food chain, usually the very, very wealthy and the powerful
00:39:06.220
and, uh, they're going to be the ones making the money on these programs, et cetera, et cetera.
00:39:15.520
And, uh, as, as the world becomes more dependent on their software and their things, then they gather
00:39:25.440
more wealth. And so the disparity between rich and poor becomes enormous, enormous. And I don't think
00:39:33.820
there's any way that nobody's even talking about how do we make sure that the uber, uber, uber wealthy
00:39:40.220
just don't own everything and everybody else is left with nothing.
00:39:44.420
Right. Uh, I think one, and one of the things I think that's different is that in the past, when you looked
00:39:51.440
at jobs being obsoleted, the people you being affected usually were not the wealthy, right?
00:39:58.660
Right. Usually if you had lumber jobs going away, right, that was an honest career for folks, but probably not
00:40:04.960
making a ton of money. But now we're talking about jobs. We're talking about computer software,
00:40:09.420
white collar jobs, white jobs, collar jobs going away. We're talking about, you know, I think that's
00:40:15.860
going to be a huge thing for the medical industry, right? We're going to see, uh, yeah. Right.
00:40:21.760
Medical diagnosis, right. Which IBM tried to tackle, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't quite there,
00:40:27.200
but there's really compelling reasons why you want that, right? Everyone would say, yeah, you don't
00:40:31.200
want a doctor operating on you if they're hungover or if they're, you know, pissed off because their
00:40:35.620
wife is having an affair. So, but you know what? Not only,
00:40:39.200
you don't even have to go to operations, which is logical outcome, but just diagnosis. I believe
00:40:45.840
by 2030 people, it will be normal for the doctor to come in and give you results of something and
00:40:52.420
try to explain what it means and what he thinks it means. And then you to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. But
00:40:57.960
what does the AI say? Because it will have so much up-to-date information that you won't want to,
00:41:07.500
you'll want to hear it from a human, but you'll want to be reassured that that's the correct
00:41:18.220
And then you end up with these interesting things where, you know, even today, a lot of medical
00:41:24.700
treatments are gated by what insurance will pay for, right? And so the doctor might have an idea
00:41:29.500
of what's the right thing to do for you, but insurance says no. Well, what happens in the
00:41:33.560
future when insurance says you will have to use our AI for diagnosis to get reimbursed?
00:41:38.480
Oh my gosh. And by the way, right, we have these biases in our AI because this AI is cheaper
00:41:43.740
for us than if we were to use a different AI that suggested more treatments. Is anybody
00:41:49.120
talking about this seriously? Is there any group out there that is talking about this and saying
00:41:55.160
we have to put this codified right now? Yeah, we don't, we don't have anything. We don't have
00:42:03.800
anything across the industry, across multiple industries. In your book, and I've only got
00:42:12.200
about a minute and a half, two minutes left. In your book, one of the most breathtaking chapters
00:42:18.100
is these guys walk into the president's office because there's an attack and AI, they're fighting
00:42:23.480
AI. And they're going to tell the president, you need to launch planes. You need to, you need to fight
00:42:28.420
right now in Chicago. And it opens with them walking into the office saying, Mr. President,
00:42:33.940
then it cuts to the AI and the war in Chicago. And the war is won by AI. And then at the end of the
00:42:42.540
chapter, it says, dot, dot, dot, we need to launch an attack now in Chicago. And it happens that fast.
00:42:51.760
Um, what takes it from a little helper to that?
00:43:00.460
It's when we take the people out of the process, right? Now it is no longer operating at people's
00:43:08.520
speed. Now it's just operating at its own speed with no checks and balances. Um, and that's what
00:43:15.260
business will drive toward because that's the economical choice, right? Take people out,
00:43:20.160
just use AI for everything, but that's how you get really bad decisions really fast.
00:43:25.620
And the safeguard for that, at least according to Elon Musk is his new, uh, I can't remember what
00:43:32.960
they're called the brain thing that he's doing where you'll be able to actually connect to the
00:43:37.480
internet. So you'll be able to think and humans will be able to, yeah, Neuralink. It'll, it'll
00:43:42.920
connect humans and put them into the process. That's his solution.
00:43:48.200
Hmm. Which, you know, I think, I think that that is a component of the future for sure. And that
00:43:54.620
could be obviously a whole other week to dedicate to that. Yeah. That's not going to stop the AI,
00:43:59.700
right? That's not going to stop the AI in the short term. And that's right. We don't have Neuralink
00:44:03.600
today. Right. Um, but we do have AI right now. Um, William, thank you for talking to me. I don't
00:44:09.880
even know what your politics are, but I mean, I think you live in Portland. So I guess I'm guessing
00:44:15.200
that we don't agree on an awful lot, but you are, you are somebody who is really, really smart and
00:44:21.020
you've been open to talk. I've, we've reached out to several AI experts this week and some of them
00:44:26.320
won't come on because they're like, I don't agree with him. And it's like, we don't have to agree on
00:44:30.920
stuff. We have to agree on, you know, some pretty basic scary stuff here is happening. We should all
00:44:36.300
be informed on it, but, uh, I really should all be willing to have a conversation. We should. And I
00:44:41.180
really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much, Glenn. You bet. Uh, that's,
00:44:45.660
uh, William Hurtling, his singularity series is really something you should read. If you want to
00:44:52.840
understand what's really literally on our doorstep now, it's on the threshold. So halfway between
00:45:00.880
outside and inside, and it's going to walk up your stairs.
00:45:03.720
Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nahat, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah.
00:45:07.600
Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nahh!
00:45:09.760
Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah.