The fires at Berkeley, and defending the indefensible. That s where we find ourselves today. I m a proponent of free speech, and it means you have to defend the ugliest speech around. That doesn t mean you don t have to agree with it, but you must ensure that it still can be heard.
00:01:40.940Hello America and welcome to the program.
00:01:44.000Last night in UC Berkeley, things got really ugly and out of hand.
00:01:54.200And it looks as though the press doesn't really care about the anarchy and the anti-capitalists that were out smashing the banks and the Starbucks.
00:02:07.480Like they had anything to do with anything.
00:02:10.760Starbucks, where you sit and have coffee and you discuss Karl Marx.
00:04:27.340I can't take, I can't take talk radio where we have three hours to converse.
00:04:36.820Because there are those who will listen to two minutes of what I have to say that might take me 20 minutes to fully explain and understand.
00:08:01.740He sticks his middle finger up to the establishment on the left and the right.
00:08:12.960He's connecting with the 18 to 34 year olds.
00:08:15.860He warns the GOP, you're alienating not the old voters, but the next generation of conservative firebrands who are currently gravitating to Trump, the alt-right, and Milo.
00:08:37.520He's the guy who wrote for Breitbart the 3,500 word piece, The Establishment Conservatives' Guide to the Alt-Right.
00:08:50.320Although initially small in numbers, the alt-right has youthful energy and jarring, taboo-defying rhetoric that has boosted its membership and made it impossible to ignore.
00:09:05.780This movement is young, and they defy all the taboos, and unfortunately the alt-right has become impossible to ignore.
00:10:01.920They do have real problems with race mixing, writes Milo.
00:10:07.660And that's only because anything associated as closely with racism and bigotry as the alt-right will inevitably attract real racists and bigots.
00:10:20.240The alt-right intellectuals would also argue that culture really is inseparable from race.
00:10:26.540There's a difference, and we are in the, we're in the we generation now.
00:10:40.220And this is what happened in the 1930s.
00:10:45.100This is what happened during the French Revolution.
00:10:48.780The we gets together and either says, we're better than this.
00:22:24.240And, you know, so I'm not a fan of him in any way.
00:22:26.320Obviously, I know you and I defend the First Amendment rights of somebody to say something.
00:22:32.080It's a horrible, horrible thing that should be absolutely shunned when you're talking about violence against people who are attending the event and this sort of reaction to it.
00:22:41.600If it was the other way around, we can play this game, I know, all day.
00:22:44.880But if it was, it would be the biggest story for weeks that they were beating up people like this at an event.
00:22:50.980I went to the Huffington Post today to look.
00:23:13.880Well, and another part of this, because I know, you know, we can always say that you talk about people, you talk about ideas, but let's go above that to principle for a second.
00:23:23.300You know, after this all happens, we all know how bad it is where the violence is being caused.
00:23:30.020Donald Trump's reaction has now become part of the news in which he tweeted basically like, maybe I'll cut off the federal funding for the university.
00:23:37.680It's honestly like a feel good reaction.
00:23:41.340You know, it's like, well, you know what?
00:23:54.140We put so much control in the federal government.
00:23:57.740When you get someone you don't like, which happened to us for the last eight years and is happening to you now, you have some you have the ability to control the way funding for education happens.
00:24:09.020And the way it's the way everything from I mean, with Obama, it was curriculum.
00:24:13.880It was the things you can and cannot teach.
00:24:21.380It all came out from the the the poison of political correctness.
00:24:27.760It's a great argument to the left to understand why you need to minimize the role of government.
00:24:32.000Now, may I may I say everybody is celebrating on the right, not everybody, many are celebrating on the right about these executive orders that he is signing and the way he is bullying people.
00:24:44.080I was on the other side of the bullying.
00:24:47.940I don't know how many people I have said I am here in Hollywood.
00:24:51.440So I'm meeting with I'm meeting with centrists.
00:24:53.800I honestly I had a conversation with somebody who is no one would believe he's a centrist.
00:25:02.400And and we were talking and he said, you know, look, I'm a centrist.
00:25:26.860But that shows the bubble that they live in here.
00:25:30.480But the the there I'm hoping that there are people out there that are looking at things like this gentleman did, where he said, you know what?
00:25:44.800I was fine with the executive orders under Barack Obama.
00:25:49.220Probably shouldn't have been fine with that.
00:26:00.400Shouldn't be fine with someone who is going after the press.
00:26:04.460When I said to a few people, I said, you know, that I was and I said one to a press person, you know, that I was the first person in American history to have not one, but five White House sponsored boycotts.
00:26:21.580It's not officially sponsored by the White House, but people in the White House using their organizations to boycott me.
00:27:39.720We should forgive them as they're doing this.
00:27:42.040Or do you think in a populist time period, the popular opinion would be get a guy bigger and meaner than that guy and shove it down their throat next time?
00:27:56.920I'm guessing that that's the way it's going to go.
00:28:19.000It's going the wrong way, but they're making progress towards something.
00:28:23.460And of course, the left is much more willing to go to the area of violent riots because they know they'll have at least at some level protection from the media.
00:32:07.680That is the stated reason why Bannon calls himself a Leninist.
00:32:15.520It is – the problem is, it is the desire of both sides.
00:32:21.580I've told you forever, there comes a point to where, because we're back on the European railroad tracks, that it will become a battle between the fascists and the communists.
00:32:36.160Neither one of them, neither one of them like the Constitution, neither one of them like what we're doing, neither one of them want to repair and restore.
00:32:48.360They both want to burn it down, and it depends on who's in office, who has more of their people in.
00:32:55.980Do the fascists have their people in, or do the communists have their people in?
00:33:01.340I contend the vast majority of people in America are tired of this.
00:33:09.000They want to be – I talked to somebody yesterday, had lunch with somebody who is a big Hillary Clinton funder, and beforehand hated it.
00:33:21.700They hated it in 2008, and this time was like, I had lunch with him yesterday.
00:33:30.280He said, I got to tell you, I just want to be left alone.
00:35:18.860We have to stay pegged to reason and principles.
00:35:24.240We are going to get to the leak in the White House because there seems to be a lot of leaks in the White House and it's disturbing what's happening.
00:35:31.260We'll get to that coming up in a little while.
00:35:33.020And now this, when it comes to buying or also Ben Sasse is going to be on, I think.
00:35:38.420When it comes to buying or selling your house, your real estate agent is your partner.
00:35:42.040And a good agent should help reduce the stress that comes with the process of selling your house.
00:35:48.620Being able to trust your real estate agent is invaluable.
00:35:53.520I want you to go to realestateagentsitrust.com.
00:35:56.220They're going to help you find a great real estate agent in your town.
00:35:59.140Over a thousand agents all over America who are just like you.
00:44:49.360But that wasn't working when you were fighting against growing the state to control everything.
00:44:56.840The classic liberal had to be eliminated.
00:44:59.720So because everyone back then was pretty much a classic liberal, he named the progressive party of the left liberals.
00:45:08.300And in the speech, he talked about how we're liberal, and we're for the everyday guy.
00:45:14.020And the conservative, the Republicans are conservative because they just want to conserve the old, tired, and worn-out ways.
00:45:24.260And we allowed him to define those terms.
00:45:30.540We allowed the progressives to define who we are.
00:45:34.140I am a classic liberal, and I know that it causes a lot of trouble, but that's not a libertarian exactly.
00:45:43.320A classic liberal can mean libertarian, but it doesn't mean—libertarian now means—and I don't think this is what this means either, but this is how it's defined now.
00:45:54.420So, hey, everybody, do some blow off of a hooker's belly today at 3 o'clock because you can.
00:46:07.260So a classic liberal needs to be retaken.
00:46:10.720Anyway, the Rubin Report yesterday, they released the first 19 minutes of an interview that we had, and it's really quite fascinating, I think.
00:46:36.800Let's talk about this leak in the White House.
00:46:39.720And the reason why—I'd say there's a leak.
00:46:43.900AP yesterday came out with a story that Donald Trump told the Mexican president that he might invade to combat the bad hombres that Mexico just can't control.
00:47:01.220President Donald Trump threatened in a phone call—threatened in a phone call with the Mexican counterpart to send U.S. troops to stop the bad hombres down there unless the Mexican military does more to control them, according to an excerpt of a transcript of the conversation obtained by the Associated Press.
00:47:18.940The excerpt of the call did not detail who exactly Trump considered bad hombres, nor—can I just stop?
00:47:27.200We're talking about the president of the United States in a transcript with a world leader, and I'm actually reading the words bad hombres.
00:47:33.360I mean, I expect, like, a 1960s version of Clint Eastwood to show up chewing a small cigar.
00:47:42.960It didn't make it clear the tone or the context of the remark.
00:47:48.220It was made Friday morning in a phone call between the leaders.
00:47:50.680It also did not contain Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto's response.
00:49:12.300But they have to be knocked out, and you have not done a good job knocking them out.
00:49:19.200He made an offer to help with the drug cartels.
00:49:21.780Excerpt of the transcript obtained by CNN differs with the eternal readout of the call that wrongly suggested Trump was contemplating sending troops to the border in a hostile way.
00:49:35.220It was, again, Jake Tapper, a guy who has proven himself...
00:49:38.300You know, I said to Anderson Cooper last night that somebody asked me recently, and I shouldn't have said this because there are a couple of people that do come to mind.
00:49:49.680The question was, and in fact, I think it was in the Rubin Report, do you know anyone who is intellectually curious and intellectually honest?
00:49:58.420Now, that is really tough, to be curious, to be curious enough to go, I'm still exploring the world, and I don't have all the answers, and I don't know.
00:50:08.980Anderson strikes me as that guy that's curious and tries to get it right.
00:50:48.220He's doing it now under Trump, and here he is being called a guy who just does nothing but fake news, clearing Donald Trump.
00:50:57.760Yeah, I mean, he's done a great—I mean, Tapper's record is excellent and lengthy as far as, you know, actually reporting the news and trying to tell the truth.
00:51:06.880And it's weird because, I mean, you never see—intellectually curious part of that is interesting because you never see people ask the next question.
00:51:13.800For example, the other one of these big leaks that came out of the White House last night was this Australia story where we got—the reports are Trump got in a screaming match with the head of Australia because of this refugee deal.
00:51:28.940And he doesn't want to take these refugees.
00:51:30.320And he said, hey, you know, this could be the next Boston bomber that comes out of this group.
00:51:39.480First of all, you know, even the Australian president is saying that—what is it, prime minister, president, whatever it is in Australia—is saying, you know, that's not really how it went.
00:51:47.280But, of course, you kind of expect that, that they would try to tamp it down.
00:53:10.300Well, I can't say that they have a ban on Muslims.
00:53:13.820They just didn't have a problem taking the refugees that were Christian or Yazidi or the ones that are minority religious groups that are being persecuted.
00:53:49.740Would you consider the fact that we have 11 million illegal immigrants in this country a reason that we might need to have restrictive laws?
00:53:56.800They were talking about hundreds of thousands in Australia.
00:53:58.880We're talking about millions and millions and millions of people, some of which have been here multiple decades, and we are supposed to, you know, ignore the border problem, ignore the problems with—potentially with refugees.
00:54:12.960And, you know, there are problems there.
00:54:18.260But to act as if we are going to bash Trump for a call that he had with Australia when Australia has a more restrictive policy than the one they've been complaining about for the last week is completely absurd.
01:04:38.400And because I can understand, obviously, you know, because of the embrace of the alt-right, there's a legitimate question as to whether that would be true.
01:04:46.000One is Ben Shapiro, who is a guy who has been, was very, obviously, does not like Bannon at all, left Breitbart, did not like Bannon at all in the way that he, you know, sort of trashed his own reporters in conflicts with Trump.
01:04:59.540But he even said he doesn't think he believes a lot of the things that are out there.
01:15:51.440And even the people who created the bacon shortage website, the Ohio Pork Council, are saying, we just thought this was a good marketing tool.
01:18:27.660Well, this is a bill that ensures that babies who survive an attempted abortion get a fighting chance.
01:18:32.740It requires that hospitals and doctors give the same medical attention to an abortion survivor that would have been offered to any premature baby at the same age.
01:18:40.800And it criminalizes the intentional killing of a baby that was born.
01:18:44.120So, last week, I introduced it to 27 other senators, which is sort of a good thing, but you're like, how in the world is this not introduced with 99 other senators?
01:18:53.400It passed the House of Representatives on a bipartisan vote last year but didn't go anywhere in the Senate.
01:18:58.040So, please let your senators know that this is just common-sense legislation.
01:19:03.300Okay, so I want to make sure I understand this.
01:19:05.860This is not you can't do partial birth abortion.
01:19:09.980This is if the baby survives the partial birth abortion or any abortion and is still alive, you can't lock them in a closet so they just die.
01:19:24.780I mean, I'm a solidly pro-life guy on anything we're going to talk about, but this is a different thing than that.
01:19:30.820And Republicans and Democrats obviously don't agree on a lot of things, but everybody should be able to agree on this, that life isn't disposable.
01:19:37.780And when a baby is born, you can't lock her in a closet and just leave her alone and cold to die, struggling for breath.
01:19:44.420And, you know, it's crazy that we haven't yet criminalized that.
01:19:49.180Ben, I have to tell you, partial birth abortion is so far beyond – I mean, it's into the Mengele territory.
01:20:28.920I can't believe we need a law to tell doctors that after that, they still can't kill – because the line that they have in their head is,
01:20:42.600well, it's still inside the woman's body, so, you know, that head's still in there, so it's still part of her body.
01:20:49.160But once she survives that and the baby is born, why do we have to have a law?
01:20:54.600Yeah, I mean, let's back up a tiny little bit, too, and just talk at the macro level about the fact that so much of the pro-life movement is having real success,
01:21:06.280and it's outside of the legislative sphere, really good things are happening as young people are becoming more pro-life than the generation above them.
01:21:14.760And that's because they're a heavily image-driven culture.
01:21:17.840There are a whole bunch of places where we'd have debates about deliberation and reading and reflection,
01:21:22.700where we want all sorts of things to happen in a more orderly way for our teenagers and our 20-somethings that are coming of age.
01:21:29.020But one of the good effects of the image-centricity of this culture – and it's problematic in general –
01:21:35.440but one of the good things is people are seeing diagnostic technologies of babies in utero, and they're realizing that that's a baby.
01:21:44.120And so there's a lot of good stuff happening in the pro-life movement as people are celebrating a culture of life,
01:21:49.860and frankly, as those of us in the pro-life movement are getting better at making sure that we actually are checking our own energies and zeal and consciences
01:21:58.300to make sure we're loving moms and trying to persuade them, not just try to think this is primarily about legislation,
01:22:04.780because it's mostly not about legislation.
01:22:06.820But in the legislative domain, we ought to be able to start with things that we can agree on.
01:22:11.440Americans are the kind of people who cheer for the vulnerable.
01:22:15.480We protect the powerless from the powerful.
01:22:17.960And a little baby boy or girl that's just been born fighting for their life, I mean, it's the most basic thing that people who are humane defend.
01:22:28.300Well, I mean, we don't know, highly unlikely that it's happening often, but you remember the Gosnell case a few years ago.
01:22:36.500So it gets about, Ben, four or five years ago.
01:22:38.420This Philadelphia abortionist, for those of your listeners who don't know, Kermit Gosnell was convicted of murdering newborns.
01:22:44.520I mean, court documents reveal that he made millions of dollars over the course of 30 years performing as many late-term abortions as he could.
01:22:52.240So, again, this is the late-term abortion stuff you're talking about.
01:22:54.820He had this simple business model, offer abortions to women who couldn't find them elsewhere because they were too pregnant.
01:23:01.260And we know that there are cases where he delivered living, breathing, struggling newborns and killed them with the scissors and just discarded them as waste.
01:23:09.460And he destroyed his medical files, so relatively few of the cases were prosecuted.
01:23:15.380But court documents indicate that he induced abortion on a 17-year-old woman who was seven and a half months pregnant, and a baby there was born breathing and moving and weighed about six pounds.
01:23:25.920And he severed the baby's spine, and he joked that this baby was so big that the baby could have walked him to a bus stop.
01:23:35.460But he's in jail, so why do we need this law?
01:23:40.000Well, we need clarity in this movement about the fact that people – I mean, to the point you're making about late-term abortion.
01:23:48.680Late-term abortion is totally morally abhorrent.
01:23:52.620And there should be movement on a whole bunch of different domains.
01:23:57.460But the people who argue against – the people who argue for all abortion on demand all the time without any questioning ever, we need to be having a debate about what life is because the babies in utero are babies.
01:24:11.800And we need to be able to have that conversation.
01:24:14.500Ben, last night I was on CNN, and what I didn't know is about an hour later, Milo What's-His-Face from Breitbart, who is a despicable alt-right guy who has said,
01:24:33.960we live in a post-fact world, and I revel in that because you can do whatever you want, wasn't – it had a talk scheduled at UC Berkeley.
01:24:47.340Then the anarchists – not the anti-Trump, the anti-government people, the Occupy Wall Street that said afterwards,
01:24:56.220this was a victory, and we're going to burn the whole system down and take the government down, and this is war.
01:25:04.400These two were going at it last night, and there's no good party here.
01:25:10.660I said last night on CNN, I asked the press, you guys keep punching Donald Trump.
01:25:17.760We know that when you punch him, he punches back twice as hard.
01:25:21.900So that means you're going to have to punch him back, and then he'll punch you back.
01:25:26.760I feel like I'm the computer in war games.
01:25:30.760The only way to win is to not play the game.
01:25:33.960And I asked the question for the left and the right, how do you see this ending?
01:25:48.220So let me just start by admitting that I don't know the details of what happened last night.
01:25:51.820I saw some headlines this morning about some of the debates at Berkeley and whatnot.
01:25:55.920But let's just step back from that for a minute and say America has always been an idea founded on the premise that we're not going to agree.
01:26:06.260Thoughtful people, people who are grappling with mortality and heaven and hell and love and beauty and truth are not going to agree on everything.
01:26:14.500And so we have to decide what things do you solve by power and what things do you not solve by power.
01:26:20.880And the vast majority of life is not about power.
01:26:31.040The vast majority of life is the things that you persuade people to join with you in doing and that you figure out a way to lovingly disagree about with people that you can't persuade on things, often in our own families and in our own neighborhoods and our own companies and our own churches, et cetera, right?
01:26:45.240So the vast majority of life is about these places where we debate lovingly, winsomely, but you don't try to solve these problems by power.
01:26:54.440And so the First Amendment, the freedom of speech, press, religion, assembly, protest, or the redress of grievances, all of these things are a way of saying there's a difference between physical violence, which government exists to protect us from, and you can't let that word of violence drift into places where we're having debates.
01:27:14.220A safe space movement is the antithesis of education.
01:27:16.880If you're never going to encounter an idea that you didn't already know, if you're never going to refine your own beliefs, if you're never going to have to admit, hey, I was wrong on this, or come to say, you know what, I think I'm right on this, and now I know how to explain it with a little more empathy and a little more persuasion with people who disagree with me, I don't know why mom and dad are writing a tuition check.
01:27:33.300The purpose of education is, frankly, to be pushed out of your safe spaces.
01:27:39.080As Senator Ben Sasse we're talking to right now, Senator, can we move to the Supreme Court?
01:27:43.220You mentioned really our foundational principles as you were speaking there.
01:27:46.300And, you know, I've got to admit, I was a skeptic on whether Trump would actually come up with somebody who really respected the Constitution to be named to the Supreme Court.
01:27:55.100I think he hit that mark, and I think he hit it in a really impressive way.
01:27:58.820Can you tell us about Justice Gorsuch, or hopeful Justice Gorsuch?
01:28:55.900One of the things that I think is important is you read this in many of the reviews about it, and I'm sure you can speak much more eloquently than I can on it.
01:29:04.020But things like the Dormant Commerce Clause, which, to me, if it is dormant, it's not in the actual Constitution, which is kind of a problem.
01:29:12.640And it seems like Gorsuch has that same problem.
01:29:15.600Well, I mean, you know, you guys are pros at mass communication.
01:29:19.720And, you know, the one thing that I know about a national talk radio audience is the main thing they want on a Thursday morning is four dissenting views on the history of the Commerce Clause.
01:29:32.060I mean, the Dormant Commerce Clause relates to what states can do with regard to taxes and regulations that would impact people in other states.
01:29:41.040And there are lots of nerdy debates here, and I think I'm one of only a handful of people in the whole U.S. Senate who's not an attorney, let alone the fact that I'm serving on the Judiciary Committee.
01:29:51.380So, like Chairman Grassley from Iowa, we are the non-technical nerds on the Judiciary Committee.
01:29:56.560But the big point to be made is that the Commerce Clause has just swallowed up almost everything, so many things.
01:30:03.300Government finds a way to try to claim that it has the authority to get to through the Commerce Clause, and that's a mess.
01:30:10.100Underneath that, there are a lot of nerdy debates about the Commerce Clause in general and the Dormant Commerce Clause, as you flag.
01:30:16.600Our entire audience is a bunch of nerds, so they appreciate the Commerce Clause talk in the morning.
01:30:21.000I really thought you had an audience bigger than 11, but I stand correct.
01:30:24.380Senator Ben Sasse, we actually lost connection with Glenn here in the middle of this, but it was really interesting to listen to you.
01:30:32.280And, you know, I think a lot of people came to, after the election, were really worried about what Trump might do with the Supreme Court.
01:30:39.320And not only am I thrilled, I think it's also a real statement on people like yourself who opposed him on some of this,
01:30:45.620but was able to say, look, you know, when he does a good job, we're going to say it, and that's the most important thing we can do.
01:30:49.720Amen. I mean, you know, Gorsuch is the kind of guy that becomes an occasion for us to teach our kids civics.
01:30:56.520I mean, this is a guy who, I mean, he writes really clearly.
01:30:59.260I mean, he says things like, judges are different than politicians because we took an oath to apply the law as it is, not to reshape the law as we wish it were.
01:31:07.340Well, that's pretty darn good Schoolhouse Rock right there.
01:31:09.560You know, the Congress is the people, we're the people who are supposed to make policy because ultimately the voters of America are supposed to be preeminent, and they can hire and fire us.
01:31:19.620If you're a judge and you have a lifetime appointment, you don't get to make policy because the people can't fire you.
01:32:29.380It would be prudent on our part to examine the possible negative side effects of doing away with cash or the possible negative side effects of saying that, oh, the problems are all fixed.
01:32:49.420I want to talk to you about a meeting I had here in Los Angeles with some very big financial people, and I said, what do you think is coming?
01:33:01.280And the gobbledygook that came out of their mouth, I hope they're right.
01:33:07.520But they were talking to me about how, oh, this $4 trillion that we printed, they could print more, and it's not really going to affect us.
01:33:14.840Oh, we could have tariffs, and it won't be a big deal.
01:33:18.540We could pretty much wall ourselves off from the rest of the world, and it won't affect our economy.
01:33:22.920Oh, this, the housing market, that's not a bubble, and neither is Wall Street.
01:33:27.900Those are all, it was incredible to listen to.
01:34:12.220Also, ask them for their free cashless society risk report.
01:34:18.500In India, they sped up the process of going digital by invalidating 86% of their currency with four hours' notice.
01:34:27.620It caused a panic, and gold doubled in price overnight.
01:34:32.280I want you to call Goldline now, 1-866-GOLDLINE.
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01:38:20.860Everywhere I put Barack Obama, he's putting Donald Trump.
01:38:25.520But I want you to hear it because it's exactly what you felt when Barack Obama was in office, which I believe gives us a point of connection to make the case of constitutional rule.
01:38:40.900Because no one should feel this way because a president is in office, one you don't like.
01:38:47.100So, I know, I know, it's preposterous, blah, blah, blah.
01:38:53.540We live at a pivotal time because Barack Obama and his thugs have done us a favor.
01:39:00.200They have shown us that democracy is not inevitable.
01:39:08.420But that is a phrase that could have very easily been written by anybody in the Tea Party.
01:39:15.360In just a matter of days, they have shown us how democracy can be transformed into something evil.
01:39:21.220We can imagine a future of jackboots crashing through our doors at 2 a.m., trucks in the streets to take people away to the internment camps, bright lights, parking dogs, and worse.
01:45:44.700The idea is no man should be afraid of any president no matter what side.
01:45:52.620No person in America should be afraid of the IRS coming and turning you upside down because of what you believe.
01:46:02.220Or the jackbooted thugs kicking down your door because you believe something and you're nonviolent.
01:46:12.380Nobody, nobody should have to worry about the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street setting the world on fire and trying to overthrow the government.
01:46:27.520But because everybody's been playing the game of it's my person I want to win.
01:46:32.680I want Barack Obama or I want Donald Trump.
01:47:41.040The idea of America is what made us great.
01:47:45.280Now this, your belongings, your safety, too important not to be protected, right?
01:47:53.300So go with a team that will take care of your home and your family's security, and they'll do so without locking you into a trap contract where you're paying all kinds of money forever.