00:03:37.000I, I spent a lot of time with my team trying to figure out who would be the best guest to have the week of Easter.
00:03:45.560And, you know, we could have gotten a lot of preachers and pastors and, you know, some legendary figures.
00:03:52.000Um, but I chose you, uh, for a reason, your, uh, series on Jesus called the chosen is phenomenal on several different layers, but it is, it is so, uh, not just historically accurate.
00:04:11.200It is so unlike the way Hollywood or a church film would ever be made about Jesus.
00:04:31.100I'll take your introduction as, uh, we, we could have gotten someone great, but we, we chose you.
00:04:35.240I'll, uh, no, we, no, we could have gotten somebody legendary, but we have you because you are a great, great person that has a very different, uh, angle to the, the, the traditional way of telling the Christ story.
00:04:56.840And I, and I appreciate you having me on and it's an, it's a, it's a privilege to talk to you again, but yeah, that's, I think this Easter is.
00:05:03.120As we launched season two, uh, it's bringing up all of these conversations again, and especially Easter of 2021.
00:05:11.520I mean, coming off of the last year, the, the, the discussion of who Jesus is and who Jesus was, was he when he was on earth, what his mission was, what our mission should be, I believe has gotten quite, uh, skewed, uh, in, in a lot of the pop culture dialogue.
00:05:29.440And I, I, I will tell you this, I go to a very traditional kind of service every Sunday, you know, we still wear a suit and we sing from the hymn book and everything else.
00:05:39.560Um, but I think that is changing and part of that is good.
00:05:45.520It needs to change the, the, the church is outside of those four walls.
00:05:51.480Uh, that's just a, like a quick pit stop to get refueled, to be able to make it the rest of the week and do the right things.
00:06:00.340Um, so now you're looking at a, uh, a country that it's membership to churches in the last 12 months is now down by 50%.
00:06:12.380I don't know if that's going to recover as quickly as it went away.
00:06:18.740We've many people that were going were, uh, uh, uh, they've now broken the habit of going every Sunday, going to church, uh, and, and the millennials in particular are looking for something, what they would describe as more real, more authentic.
00:06:42.380Yeah, I, it's a really interesting question.
00:06:47.280I think the same question applies to things like movie theaters is, is the desire, the pent up desire going to cause people to be even more excited to get to church or to movie theaters because they've been denied it for the last year, or is it going to cause people to get into the habit of living without it?
00:07:06.460I will say this, um, some of these things, some of these things that have happened as a result of the, of the lockdowns and mandates and all that stuff, most of which I'm significantly opposed to as a libertarian.
00:07:19.300And some of, some of, some of it has, has weeded out some of the, the bad, you know, which, which, which, which, which can be a good thing.
00:07:26.900And I think that's even true of some churches, um, you know, I'm a passionate evangelical church goer myself, but there are probably some churches that needed to not survive, um, which I think is okay.
00:07:38.660But what I've seen with The Chosen is that when the pandemic hit and we decided to make the show free, uh, we were only going to do it for a few weeks, just kind of as a goodwill gesture.
00:07:52.640And the moment we did it, not only did our viewership, you know, go through the roof, but our, our income, uh, quadrupled.
00:08:01.660And that's what we call God's impossible math.
00:08:04.060We made, we made the show free and we ended up getting far more income than we expected because we thought we would lose money.
00:08:10.420And the reason is, and the reason I bring this up is because we hear over and over again, I need this now more than ever.
00:08:48.960I have the letter that he wrote from France that says, no, no, no, they have a problem with God because in France, they associate God with the church and the church with the state.
00:09:01.260So I'm just trying to separate that tangled mess.
00:09:05.620And I think that's what we're hearing from, you know, millennials and those who are just coming of age now,
00:09:15.560that they they have a real need and a desire to connect with something bigger than themselves, a desire to connect with God.
00:09:26.100But all of the traditional ways of connecting don't appeal to them at all.
00:10:22.080The marriage license involves the state and the state has no place in that.
00:10:28.660I mean, even in my relationship, I don't want the state involved in mine.
00:10:32.940And we've chosen these really poor arguments that have boxed us into this kind of people that I don't think we are and I don't want to be.
00:10:44.900No, and I think when marriage debates came up, one of the things I would sometimes say was we made this mistake a long time ago when we, back when we were a more puritanical society and were a more Christian nation.
00:11:00.940And we did think, we did kind of confuse this whole, we want freedom, but not totally because we want the government to be the one that arbitrates marriage and approves of our faith.
00:11:19.800But that's what's happening now in reverse is this belief that when I want something to be true in society, when I want something better for society, the government is the best way to enact that.
00:11:32.880And that is, I think, in many ways, their form, someone's form of religion.
00:12:07.220Yeah, and I think this is going to come back and backfire eventually in a couple of ways.
00:12:14.760I think it's going to backfire just like it did on Christians that were like, we're going to stop drinking because the state's going to help us out.
00:12:32.340And nobody wants to be the old church lady from Dana Carvey.
00:12:35.780And I think that is going to happen eventually to the left.
00:12:38.960But it because it's with the government and it is much more in bed, the social justice and even climate change has is requiring now a total adherence.
00:12:54.000Or you're a blasphemer, you're a heretic, and it is a religion.
00:13:00.100But because it's because that religion and that belief is now coexisting with the government, you're going to end up with France in the end.
00:13:15.180And I think this applies to the left and the right.
00:13:19.540And so I, you know, I have I'm looking at our even just our show, our cast and crew, probably it's probably split down the middle of Christian, non-Christian, left, right, all of that.
00:13:32.020And I say it to both both my friends on the left and the right.
00:13:35.680It's the beauty of being a libertarian.
00:13:37.900If you find yourself offending both multiple times.
00:13:41.940But I'm saying that Twitter has become the church lady.
00:13:46.220They just they just don't use the word church.
00:13:48.140And and lest lest we criticize them too much and call them the judgmental prudes, lest we, you know, let's remember, we sometimes like to use the government for our advantage, too, just because we justify it by saying, but it's a good thing.
00:14:19.280That's let's really be cautious, because the fill in the blank of what we want the government and what morality we want the government to act out is is is always going to change dependent on who happened to be elected.
00:14:31.160And I don't think that's a world you want to be in.
00:14:35.460You're you're seeing this years and Christians are learning this right now.
00:14:41.240We're seeing what it's like to be the minority or at least in the governing sense that we are the minority.
00:14:50.380The corporations seem to be on the other side.
00:14:52.980So now we feel it the way it must have felt to others when we were doing this.
00:14:59.060And what's amazing to me is how many people are not learning their lesson.
00:15:04.760How many people on our side are saying we've got to take it back so we can get rid of all these people.
00:15:10.900You're like, wait, that that doesn't work.
00:15:13.740That's the kind of stuff that leads to death camps or concentration camps, because at some point you can't convince a very large portion of the population to go along with you.
00:15:26.380And so then you're left with, well, then what do I do?
00:15:29.780And if you've gone down this road too far, the only thing is, is they're standing in the way of progress or they're standing in the way of the Lord.
00:15:54.540And and so every time that his followers would say, well, when are we going to overthrow these people or when are we going to rid ourselves of these enemies?
00:16:03.100And in fact, speaking as a as a libertarian who hates most taxes, taxes, his disciples even asked Jesus, what do we do about all this onerous taxation?
00:16:11.620And Jesus's answer on these questions was always, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's whatever.
00:16:15.520Just pay under Caesar what Caesar's I'm not I don't care about that.
00:16:18.580He he really it was it's a lesson for me, but I think it's a lesson for everybody is he always was like.
00:16:23.700Yeah, yeah, that's just not why I'm here.
00:16:40.180So I can tell my let's let's let's let's talk about.
00:16:44.380Let's talk about that difference in Jesus here, because if you don't and I think this is something that the left understood through Hollywood, that they could come in and change the heart.
00:16:56.740They could change and soften the heart on things by telling particularly different, you know, a particular story in a very heartwarming way.
00:17:06.520You could change people in the course of a society.
00:17:13.960However, I don't think they're doing that really now, at least as effectively as they used to be.
00:17:19.780And conservatives and Christians have always been bad at that until really.
00:17:25.560Honestly, you are, I think, the best example of a storyteller to fit the time and to tell these stories in a way that I've not seen them told before.
00:17:37.080They're still true to the story, but they they're not traditional.
00:17:42.780And so they don't they affect you deeper, especially if you're somebody who doesn't doesn't like all that churchy stuff.
00:17:50.460Yeah, I think part of the reason why the chosen is resonating with both believers and nonbelievers is because in many ways it's a response to or at least the result of a lot of my experience as a strong evangelical Christian my whole life.
00:18:13.140You've had him on your show 25 years ago last year was the anniversary of Left Behind.
00:18:18.760And so it's been this really amazing full circle thing to see this kind of happening again, where the Bible being brought to life in a fresh way.
00:18:28.060But what I think is resonating with people is that I'm the chosen is the result of two things.
00:18:35.040One, watching really great television and movies my whole life, but most of them, nearly all of them not made by Christians.
00:18:43.720I've learned a lot of nearly every good storytelling technique that, you know, was ultimately came from the Greeks and came from, you know, Aristotle and whatnot, but and came from Old Testament.
00:18:57.220But most of it has come from Hollywood.
00:19:01.740And so I don't shun them like a lot of others, you know, but like when I was growing up, again, I was part of a strong Christian or, you know, culture that was rejecting.
00:19:15.340The response to that was to make Christian entertainment.
00:19:20.000But when you reject Hollywood in all of its good and bad, you're rejecting that includes the good.
00:19:25.760And so Christian entertainment has largely been really bad, including some of the stuff I've done myself.
00:19:30.180I don't I don't hold myself exempt from that point being.
00:19:33.760The Chosen is in many ways like a I don't I don't want to be what I've seen before, particularly in Jesus portrayals.
00:19:42.860I mean, how many Jesus movies and miniseries have you seen as a believer in Jesus, Glenn, going, gosh, that's not a Jesus I would ever follow.
00:20:16.580Oh, he's so boring, you know, or, oh, I don't identify with anybody that he's surrounding himself with.
00:20:23.860And I can't identify with him because he's perfect.
00:20:25.820And he doesn't really make for a great protagonist because he doesn't have anything to learn like any good protagonist.
00:20:32.020So the chosen is, again, I think a solution or attempt, at least an attempt to be a solution to a lot of problems that I've faced just growing up in that.
00:20:40.480I never had good entertainment that that matched my principles, my values.
00:22:14.020I'm not trying to land in the middle here, but it is absolutely true that both sides, I believe, have a tendency to get this wrong.
00:22:20.360And I've been on both sides of these of these arguments, Jesus absolutely believed in the least of these, absolutely served the least of these, absolutely abhorred discrimination in any form.
00:22:36.380Everything that I see in in protests over the last year, I shouldn't say everything, but a good chunk of what I've seen in protests from both sides, some of which I've agreed with, some of which I haven't.
00:22:47.820But I think I believe Jesus would, for the most part, agree with on a I even don't like to use a word agree with as though he's agreeing with someone else's position.
00:23:49.640He always said those religious systems, those government systems are traps.
00:23:54.160You will start to rely on them instead of your heart.
00:23:57.180And he specifically called out the Pharisees all the time.
00:23:59.760And even though he he said, do what they say, they're they're they're they're believing the correct things, but not what they do and not how they act it out.
00:24:08.620And he would say to them, you are your heart is not your heart has been consumed by the law, not by the heart.
00:24:53.500And we just don't associate with them at all.
00:24:57.520His point is this Samaritan is good because of what his heart is.
00:25:03.520Judge him by the character of his soul, not by where he came from or what he looks like.
00:25:10.180Yeah, and he also said he referred to a she, the first person he revealed himself as the Messiah to publicly was a woman, a Samaritan woman who was not only looked down on by Jews, was looked down on by fellow Samaritans as someone who had had five previous husbands.
00:25:29.260She was out at a well in the middle of the day, the middle of the heat.
00:25:32.740Women always got their water in the morning before it got too hot.
00:25:35.380She was out there in the middle of the day because in the heat because she was outcast.
00:25:41.760And that's who Jesus met with in the middle of the day to give some truth that changed history and revealed himself as the Messiah.
00:25:51.080And she was in many ways the very first evangelist about Jesus being the Messiah.
00:25:54.720And then they ended up spending three days in Samaria, a place where they were absolutely racist towards, the Jewish people were, and vice versa, very much prejudiced towards.
00:26:06.080And he kept, that's what he was doing.
00:26:07.360He was like, I'm going to the places no one else goes.
00:26:10.140And I'm talking to the people no one else talks to.
00:26:13.220And again, to illustrate, he didn't do it through governmental or religious systems.
00:26:18.280He was always doing it outside the system.
00:26:20.000And that's what caused him to die, is that's what killed him, is the systems were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't, don't, don't upset the apple cart here.
00:26:29.680But he wasn't also doing it to try to make, I mean, he was obviously trying to make a point, but he wasn't doing it like, I'm going to strategically go over here and be with these people.
00:26:41.080So that way people will see, and then I'm going to go over here.
00:26:44.280It was, he was led by the problem and he was doing no more than loving people.
00:26:52.020Yeah, I would say there's one exception to that, which is, which we cover in season two, the healing at the pool of the Bethesda.
00:27:01.620One of the things we cover in episode four of season two is, and you see it, glimpses of it in the trailer that's out, is there is a scenario that I believe that he healed this man on the Sabbath.
00:27:13.620And told him to pick up his mat on the Sabbath, when he probably could have just, the guy had been, had been crippled for over 30 years.
00:27:21.680He could have done it the next day, the guy would have been fine with that too.
00:27:24.940I do believe he did that on Sabbath just to, to, we say in the show, stir up the water a little bit, but, but to kind of stir up a little bit of, of, again, not, not, I don't think for just for the purpose of doing that,
00:27:38.120but to make the point that same thing with his disciples eating on, on Sabbath, uh, which was also set the apple cart was whether or not he did it on purpose to start the problem that I don't know.
00:27:50.320But I do know that he certainly didn't care that he was upsetting some people.
00:27:55.060Well, again, isn't that, wasn't that more about the law?
00:27:59.520I mean, if your ox is in the mire, you know, I know the Sabbath, but we've got to do God's work and we have to do the things that we have to do.
00:28:09.800So it may not even been about stirring things up as much as this is God's work, helping people, good people, loving people.
00:28:20.740And we should always be about God's work.
00:28:22.980Yeah. And how can you let a day of the week interfere with the ultimate goal of all of this, even the ultimate goal of the law, the law that God established for the Israelites in the old Testament, which was quite restrictive, was in many ways to show their need for a savior.
00:28:40.140The fact that they can't live up to the law.
00:28:42.980Um, and, but, but what the, what the Pharisees did was they took the law, much of which was intended for good.
00:28:47.520And then they even added to it, they added non-biblical, uh, non-Torah laws, traditional laws, oral traditional laws that became scripture.
00:28:57.760Um, not literally, they became gospel-like, uh, to these, to these people.
00:29:02.400And, um, and I think he was, he came and went, no, you're, you've, you've completely missed the point.
00:29:08.540Now, you know, I, I left the room and now I got to clean it back up again.
00:29:13.040It's amazing to me that you would say this.
00:29:15.040I just read an article where they said, with all of the things that we're now doing by law through administration, uh, you know, through the, you know, uh, the SEC and, uh, and the FCC and all of these, all of these agencies under any administration, the constitution has gone from a couple of pages to 3000 pages.
00:29:42.480And I'm sure most of it was done with good intent, but you've long the way, lost the entire point of our constitution.
00:29:52.100And that's what Jesus was saying about God's law.
00:30:09.720But, well, what, what constitutes working?
00:30:11.900Well, I mean, and now, and then it got to the place where people were so burdened by it that it was costing them in many times it was costing them their lives.
00:30:19.960They would, they would be hungry because they couldn't, you know, they were being taxed by the Romans, oppressed by the Romans.
00:30:24.800So they couldn't, they didn't have as much money.
00:30:26.820So now they can't even go try to get food on a certain day.
00:30:30.020I mean, and, and, and so that's why when Jesus was stopped by the Pharisees, which is another scene we cover in season two, uh, where his disciples are eating on, on Sabbath or picking the heads of grain and the Pharisees come in and go, whoa, you're not allowed to do that.
00:30:43.540How can you let your, your followers do that?
00:30:57.440And, uh, and, and, and then of course he mentioned that he's Lord of the Sabbath and he can, you know, he, he's the one who, who can decide how the, how this is interpreted, but he brings up even King David, King David from the old Testament where he says, don't you remember guys when he was desperate and he was starving and he needed food and he actually ate the bread of the presence,
00:32:54.400And it is this, this peaceful non-compliance that is the, the secret, um, and it's truly has to be based in love and really following the example set by Christ.
00:33:08.400Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't make an impact because the churches had already been lost.
00:33:14.980The spirit of that, of Christianity, if you will, Judeo-Christian principles had so been almost eradicated, uh, in society.
00:33:28.160And most people just started closing down.
00:33:51.500Uh, it requires some work to keep it going on.
00:33:55.640Yeah, I, so I think the answer is definitely yes, that we are approaching a time in which the church, uh, the, the, the, and by that, I mean, the, the large church, the, the, the Christy bride.
00:34:10.560Um, are losing or possibly have lost at that, certainly lost the majority influence.
00:34:17.600Um, I'm sure there's, there's of course still some influence, but it's, it's not that it's not influence I'm, I'm talking about.
00:34:24.720It's, it's the, I talked to many Christians who say, uh, yeah, the time for peaceful, you know, talking to the other side.
00:34:33.960And they're just, they no longer believe it.
00:34:37.500I'm not saying the majority, but there are many Christians that no longer believe that had Jesus is enough that, uh, you know, the example of Martin Luther King is just not, uh, you're not able to apply that now and make any headroom.
00:35:00.740I, I, I rarely compare Jesus to any other earthly, uh, because it's, because it's so, he was on about something so much bigger, but I, I, I definitely get what you're saying.
00:35:13.100Um, I just don't believe there's, I don't believe there's a choice in the matter.
00:35:17.460And I don't believe Jesus gave that choice.
00:35:20.540He specifically said, there will be trouble.
00:35:27.020And the only chance you have, the only hope you have is your human heart and, excuse me, and in your relation and in your relationship with others.
00:35:36.400And that's why he kept saying, you know, love others, love, you know, uh, serve others.
00:35:41.200It was always about, um, it started with worshiping God.
00:35:45.480Of course, it starts with the vertical, um, towards God and, and, and, and the repentance and the acceptance and the surrender to God.
00:35:52.020But how we live it out, I'm telling, I mean, I just, I can't emphasize it enough.
00:35:56.300It was always about the heart and the personal, including his miracles.
00:36:01.440That's one of the things that we really focus on in the show is, and that's one of the things that I really, I think, discovered as I'm doing the more research I do.
00:36:09.640And the more I try to understand this man that I'm portraying in the show is even his miracles were small.
00:36:15.960Um, he occasionally did, you know, the feeding of the 5,000, for example, but more often than not, I mean, his first public miracle was a favor for his friends because his mom asked him to, um, you know, we, when you, when you realize that what, what Emmanuel means, Emmanuel means God with us, which is traditionally a Christmas term.
00:36:35.620Um, but it really applies to who Jesus was all the time.
00:36:40.060He was with us and his miracles, he wasn't up there on stage doing magic tricks to wow the crowds to, to prove to, you know, mass amount of people who he was.
00:36:51.780He was, he was, it was one-on-one and it was, it was always small and he would always use, um, uh, innocuous things to do it like mud to, to heal a man's sight.
00:37:03.700Um, you know, just, uh, little things that, that are very common that he would do to change someone's life.
00:37:11.620And that's the thing that just wrecks me every time.
00:37:14.280And I get emotional even thinking about it is some of the scenes that we've portrayed, even the way that I portray them as a filmmaker.
00:37:20.300I oftentimes will kind of like shrink the, the, the visual and, and get it to where it's, it's Jesus's eyes and, and, and the recipient of the miracles.
00:37:31.160And, and you're seeing reactions of a person and how the miracle is impacting them, not just the recipient of the miracle, but the observer.
00:37:38.860So Matthew, the tax collector, for example, in season one, his journey accelerates because of what he witnesses Jesus do to someone else personally.
00:39:43.140And you think about, um, how much, uh, money and time and charitable, uh, energy has been spent when some of these big, um, organizations, charitable organizations like Compassion International or World Vision or whatever.
00:39:58.340When, when, what, what do they do to get the, to generate the most income?
00:40:02.720They, they, they have you sponsor one child.
00:40:05.300They send you a picture of somebody because they know that that's actually going to generate more than when you're trying to, if you think about the, the, the mass, the mass all at once, it's overwhelming.
00:40:16.160Um, and when you mentioned that, that quote from Jesus, which is such a wonderful quote where he says the poor, you know, the, well, it's not, I shouldn't say it's a wonderful quote.
00:40:23.740It's a sad quote, but when he says the poor will always be poor, you remember what he's, what he's responding to.
00:40:29.460He's, he's actually defending someone who's spending tons of money on perfume to pour on his feet.
00:40:38.060We always say today we are, we're always criticizing anyone who, you know, who owns something fancy or even sometimes we even criticize people in the church for, uh, some sort of, um, elaborate presentation.
00:40:50.980And I'm, I personally, I do advocate for efficiency and our, and it's good stewardship of whatever money we have.
00:40:57.520And I don't want God, you know, Christ turning over the tables and in my house anytime soon.
00:41:02.020But Jesus is something we oftentimes forget is that Jesus was actually defending a woman who's pouring expensive perfume on his feet and saying the poor will, there will always be poor.
00:41:13.920Let's, let's, uh, thank her and reward her for her devotion.
00:41:17.640And the reason that he was honoring it is because it was an outpouring of her devotion and this was the way to do it.
00:41:23.620Nicodemus, the same thing, Nicodemus at the end of Christ's life, when he gave so much to the, to the spices and the perfumes, it was a visual representation of his desperation and his worship of God.
00:41:35.300Now, maybe you might find this blasphemous.
00:41:40.380Uh, I always am, uh, because I've had the, uh, experience of growing up poor, then working, uh, my way up and having a lot of money in my twenties and then just being insane, uh, and just, just being stupid and egotistical and driven by money.
00:43:05.740It was nice while we had it, but that's not what's driving my life.
00:43:09.600And the difference here is that we're all seemingly, uh, missing is it's not a problem being rich or poor.
00:43:19.200There are many people poor that are a lot happier than rich people and a lot of rich people that do really good things, uh, with their money.
00:43:29.860And they shouldn't be demonized as evil.
00:44:16.860And when he was traveling, he, and he, and when he sent his disciples to travel and when missionaries went on their journeys in the book of Acts, uh, they had to stay in the homes of wealthy people.
00:44:25.860They, uh, had to be, they had to, they said they were sustained by the generosity of wealthy people.
00:44:31.460In fact, um, even there were women who followed Jesus, who sustained his ministry financially.
00:44:36.360Well, they didn't get their money by being poor.
00:44:38.600Um, and he defended it like we, as, as we just talked about, he defended the woman who poured the, the expensive perfume on his, on his feet.
00:44:45.460Um, and I talked about the, the beauty of, of, of, uh, feasts, big elaborate wedding feasts and all of those things.
00:44:52.780He all, he always talked about in, in a positive way, but he was very, very explicit about what you just said, which is if it's got your heart, then you're in big trouble.
00:45:03.960And it's in fact, you're going to have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel is going to get into through an eye of a needle.
00:45:09.040I mean, he, he was very hard on those to whom did have the, to those who did have those means.
00:45:14.820Um, but poor people missed the boat too.
00:45:18.160You know, he, so he, he, he was an equal opportunity, uh, uh, offender when it came to, yeah, when he, when he came to making sure that your heart was in the right place.
00:45:27.160Cause I believe that there's in many ways, sometimes the theology of poverty that some people become just as proud of or obsessed with, with poverty, um, as, as they do wealth.
00:45:40.060And, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's much like the same comparison goes to people who are too prideful.
00:45:46.760It's, it's, it's, it's the opposite side of the same coin as someone who's too self loathing.
00:45:51.320It's like, well, they're both, they're, they're all part of the same belief, which is it's, it's obsession with self and it's whether you're, uh, if you're too antagonistic towards the wealthy, you care, you, you yourself care too much about money.
00:46:25.440That's one of the things that, um, you know, in, in my faith, we stay away from tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine and logical reasons for all of those things.
00:46:42.720It's not about, uh, it's not about coffee as, uh, as, you know, being wrong or evil.
00:46:50.020One of the things that it is all about is, um, are you dependent on anything?
00:46:57.680So in other words, unless it's a prescription drug and properly used, um, are you depend, do you get up in the morning and you're like, I have to have my cup of coffee.
00:47:10.240That should show you on the very small scale.
00:47:14.100Don't ever be locked into anything but the Lord.
00:47:20.940And I've gotten to know so many LDS friends as I've worked on this project, because many of them are actually responsible for getting the show out to the world.
00:47:29.100And we've had lots of these conversations.
00:47:30.780And I think there's something really important about, about this as an evangelical.
00:47:34.360I don't have, I'm not part of a church that has the same, some of the same restrictions that you guys do.
00:47:40.580Um, well, one thing I've found is both, both, both things can be dangerous.
00:47:44.640Meaning I've, I've talked to some of my LDS friends for whom the restriction has become an idol.
00:47:51.160They, they rely so much on the, the, uh, I'm not owned by anything, but, but they are kind of owned by the law, by the rules.
00:47:59.700The rules become so important that if they break a rule or if they, or if they have a need for something that can be a devastating, you know, God distancing moment for them.
00:48:11.640I, I know people who handle pretty well.
00:48:15.360The problem we, the thing we don't handle well is we love to judge alcohol and, and smokers, but say your body's a temple of the Holy spirit and you shouldn't be beholden to anything.
00:48:25.140Uh, pardon me as I weigh 300 pounds and I have to, uh, also, I can't get through my day without my coffee.
00:48:32.120So it's all about, I think both, I think all, it's all about, it is truly all about moderation in all things and making sure that you are focused on him and nothing comes between you and him.
00:48:50.520And that could be judging other people that could be, you know, uh, drink that could be anything, anything in your life.
00:48:59.620And these laws, I know somebody who, um, I know somebody who has, has left the church because they violated some of the rules and they feel so guilty and they feel like nobody could ever accept me.
00:49:15.980And I keep saying, then you don't understand repentance.
00:49:21.180And if those people don't understand repentance, that's up to them.
00:49:24.880But if you're sorry and you've, uh, uh, apologized to God and asked for his forgiveness and he's freely given it to you, everything after that is all you.
00:49:38.200And it's just as damaging as any sin you might've committed.
00:49:42.500Yeah, and I think I'm seeing a lot in the LDS community, which per capita is probably the biggest fans of the chosen anywhere.
00:49:52.160When I go to Utah, uh, that's, that's the one place where I, I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a bit of a celebrity is, um, it's, it's really, the show is become huge in the, in the LDS faith.
00:50:03.360And, um, partially also because we filmed some of season two at that amazing set in Goshen, Utah, that's owned by the LDS church who allowed us to shoot there for the first time they've ever allowed anyone outside the church to use it.
00:50:17.360Um, and I've had tons of these conversations and, and it's been really interesting to see again, like we just talked about the strengths and weaknesses of LDS faith, evangelical faith.
00:50:27.100Um, I think that one of the weaknesses that has happened over the course of history with the LDS faith, um, has been this self-loathing whenever, and this fear of if I make a mistake, if I don't, if I don't do the works properly, if I, if I don't get the works, the grace part will never come.
00:50:44.320Uh, and in the evangelical faith, it's the opposite.
00:50:47.180And so we have struggles in the opposite way where we've got the grace part.
00:50:50.300We could probably stand to, to do a few more works, you know, uh, to, to, you know, and, uh, but, but, but it all comes down to, and I think this is what, why the chosen is resonating so much with, uh, with LDS folks as particular, but also evangelicals is, uh, I'm stripping away the religious boundaries.
00:51:07.460I'm stripping away, uh, the walls that we've put up between our denominations.
00:51:11.460I'm stripping away the requirements that have been put upon me by whatever church I attend.
00:51:17.320And I'm just getting to know Jesus and I'm getting to see him through the eyes of people like Nicodemus, who's a religious leader, who was missing the boat, as well as someone like Mary Magdalene, who was demon possessed.
00:51:29.440Those two opposite sides are all are finding the same thing.
00:51:33.700So maybe I can find the same thing as someone that I'm on the opposite side of.
00:51:38.040Maybe there is this man who came to earth and can unify, um, the hearts of people who are longing for a savior.
00:51:47.900I will tell you that I watched the chosen, uh, with my son and he's 16 and, uh, doesn't know about this whole God thing.
00:51:57.440You know, this is a typical 16 year old who's very outspoken about things, um, and is not really the one to, uh, be really excited to get up Sunday morning, to go to church, any church.
00:52:11.880Uh, and we watched it together and loved it because we can see people either that we know or are pieces of us in every single, what, what you've done in the first season with introducing the apostles.
00:52:30.180When I think it's in the first episode, maybe, uh, where you meet the tax collector and it is phenomenal.
00:53:31.820But, um, I'm sure God laughs, laughs at that every morning.
00:53:35.980Uh, but, um, but, but you, you, you use the term beautiful and this is a really, really important point for anyone who has seen the show or hasn't seen it yet and wants to watch it.
00:53:46.400Um, the, the beauty comes from you all, cause you also use the word horror, um, H-O-R-R-O-R, which is that the reason I believe that it's beautiful, the story is beautiful.
00:53:59.940I'm not talking about my show, just the, the, the, the, the God story.
00:54:10.820We, we have a devotional book that's out, um, based on the show and based on the gospels and a Bible study.
00:54:15.840And we always use this term, the before, and that's the, before you meet God, before God, you know, and we always say God finds us in that before.
00:54:25.020And that before is usually really brutal.
00:54:34.880Um, for Nicodemus, Nicodemus had money and wealth and position, but it was horrifying as well because he was trapped in such a, a, a tradition that he couldn't see.
00:54:44.780He, or at least initially, at least most of his colleagues couldn't see their savior right in front of them.
00:54:50.300And so what we were really doing, especially, like you said, right away and see episode one, we don't even see Jesus until the very end of episode one.
00:54:56.600And the reason that when it, when he arrives, people describe it as one of the best or most impactful moments of television they've ever seen.
00:55:03.220And, uh, and I say that with all humility, just, I'm just pointing out that it's because we take the time, we take the time to not gloss over the before.
00:55:12.280And if you can identify with those who met Jesus, if you can identify with their problems, if you can identify with their questions, then the hope is that you can identify with the solution and the answer.
00:55:24.220And that doesn't come and it's not as beautiful and it's not as impactful if we're not willing to reside and experience and connect with the before.
00:55:32.660This is going to be a real random question, I think for you.
00:55:40.360Uh, I used to believe that common sense was common, that there are certain inalienable truths, uh, and inalienable rights that we all find self-evident.
00:55:54.380I don't believe that anymore, um, uh, I think you could go to, you know, fields in China and say, you should be free and they wouldn't really understand it and they wouldn't necessarily find that comforting or good.
00:56:11.100Um, when it, when it comes to, uh, the Jesus story, it, it, it does all seem like common sense.
00:56:22.400When he says something, it's not, it's profound because it's simple.
00:56:28.760Uh, is there such a thing as self-evident truths?
00:56:33.320I do believe that there are self-evident truths.
00:56:36.700Of course, I believe that God does print things on our hearts and I believe that even we believers can sometimes squelch them by, um, you know, our daily sin struggle, as I like to call it.
00:56:48.440Whereas, you know, you'd think that after being, uh, hit with the truth of the gospel and believing it, believing that there was a man who literally died for our sins and is our savior and the savior of our souls, that we would have no problem, uh, following all of the, the biblical truths and, and, and living, I think almost a sinful, a sinless life because we're so grateful.
00:57:09.460And yet every single day I'm reminded of how short I fall of his, of being worthy of his grace.
00:57:15.720So even we believers can sometimes squelch those self-evident truths.
00:57:20.360The problem that really happens is when we take those self-evident truths and we not only squelch them, but we would replace them with something else.
00:57:27.800And that's one of the reasons why the founding fathers kept it so, so narrow is we, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.
00:57:37.880But when they also talked about the rights, you start hearing people all the time.
00:57:41.840Now use the term right to apply to things that are privileges.
00:57:46.460Um, and I think that's a very human, selfish, flesh filled perspective, which is the founding fathers go, all right, well, we have the right to the, uh, to life.
00:57:56.980No one has the right to intrude on your life or to kill, you know, to end your life to liberty.
00:58:02.180No one has the right to end your, or, or get in the way of your freedom.
00:58:05.100And no one has the right to your, to infringe on your pursuit of happiness, not necessarily happiness itself that we can't promise that God certainly didn't promise.
00:58:13.400But the pursuit of it, yes, now you're seeing you have the right to fill in the blank.
00:58:19.660And that is absolutely an indication that we are getting away from those self-evident truths and we're starting to build on them.
00:58:26.360And anytime you build on self-evident, quote unquote, self-evident truths, they're always going to, they're always going to satisfy us and they're always going to satisfy our flesh.
00:58:36.560And, uh, that's not necessarily, uh, what, what, uh, what, what God was about or what the founding fathers were about.
00:58:43.780And the reason I'm bringing it to the founding fathers is just simply to say that what something that they really did understand was that, uh, God didn't want us demanding much more than the very basics.
00:59:00.440And so, um, I think that we've, to, to, to answer your question, yes, there absolutely are self-evident truths.
00:59:05.740And yes, any of us, not believers or non-believers are capable of rejecting or ignoring them.
00:59:13.780It is, you know, you said God never promised us, you know, whatever.
00:59:17.700Um, really the only thing he promised us was this was going to be really hard, but I'll wash it clean with the savior and you can come back, you know, you'll, you'll be fine.
00:59:28.960When you think about, well, God wouldn't want, no, God sent us here knowing that we would be tempted, knowing that we would fail, knowing that some of us would fail spectacularly, but we could endure it.
00:59:45.180And we could, uh, learn to get better every day.
00:59:49.980And what you said about, uh, you know, uh, we should be grateful every day.
00:59:54.860I, I have to tell you, I, uh, you know, I, my whole life was turned around with baptism and, and repentance and the atonement.
01:00:05.380I needed it so desperately and there should be nobody more grateful than me.
01:00:10.940And I have found myself, you know, in the last few years feeling like, you know, I wish I could go through some of that.
01:00:19.460I don't, I don't, God, I do not want this, but you know, some of that again, cause you feel like you kind of drift from it.
01:00:26.740No matter how intense it was, you still drift.
01:00:30.460And it takes a lot of work to stay, you know, even in the pocket, let alone really, truly Christ-like.
01:00:47.980Uh, the goal is to, uh, be as much like Christ as possible while recognizing you'll never get there while recognizing that one of the reasons he came, the main reason he came was because you can't do it.
01:01:00.280And he would always say that he'd say, you've heard it said that it's wrong to murder.
01:01:04.540I'm telling you, you guys are so far from, you're, you're, you're even thinking about murder as a sin.
01:01:10.700So just get it out of your heads that you're going to use the law to live this perfect life.
01:01:21.180You're not always going to be perfect, but you can find joy when you recognize surrender.
01:01:25.580And that's, that's where the effort comes in.
01:01:27.440And I try to avoid, and maybe it's evangelical in me, who's not a Catholic, not LDS, which I, which tend to be a little bit more religious based or structural.
01:01:37.340Um, but the evangelical in me, uh, tends to try to avoid trying to accomplish it through what I do.
01:01:45.540Where I put the work in the most, where I try to, at least is in the surrender is in the, the, the death to self.
01:01:52.120Um, and if I'm truly surrendered, if I'm truly broken, and if I, then, then that should hopefully maintain this need for the savior and gratitude.
01:02:01.060Yeah, I think that, um, I, I think that that is the, the, the whole trick.
01:02:10.480And some of us might need more structure around us than others.
01:02:15.580I, I just don't think that, uh, I don't think God's going to, you know, send me to a lake of fire and brimstone because I didn't go to the right college.
01:02:25.140You know, I didn't, I, I was going to the wrong church.
01:03:00.620Keep, you know, keep that cycle of, of, of repentance going, uh, not because you're pouring ashes on yourself, but because it leads you to gratitude.
01:03:09.940That's really what repentance does is it's the first step towards gratitude.
01:03:14.560I think that is one of our biggest problems as a nation is we have everything and yet we want more, more, more, more, more.
01:04:35.080And when you're not grateful as a rule, then anything that comes in that upsets your life becomes way bigger and way more disruptive than it needs to be.
01:04:47.100Um, so you start to see, it doesn't have to be COVID to get you to be depressed or upset.
01:04:52.420It can, it can be something as simple as, you know, I got to the restaurant.
01:04:57.400They didn't have on the menu what I expected.
01:05:00.960And, uh, it, it does come from a, a, a position of gratitude that, um, when you're truly grateful for a savior, when you're truly grateful for your, not just your day-to-day, um, blessings, but your soul blessing, your soul, um, rescuing.
01:05:18.000Um, it results in gratitude and then gratitude results in generosity and in, um, so, so many other, uh, I don't want to sound trite, but so many other positive things can be rooted back to gratitude.
01:05:34.660And so many negative things can be rooted back to a lack of gratitude.
01:07:12.080And if you would say to them, well, you're stacking up a lot of works, they would find that grotesque and they probably wouldn't even know what you were talking about.
01:07:21.260Let's talk quickly about how people can watch the chosen.
01:07:24.420The second season starts this Easter weekend and I cannot, uh, emphasize how good this storyline is, how well done it is, how different it is from anything else that I've, I've seen on a Jesus story.
01:07:41.700It is accurate, but it's accurate, uh, beyond just the words.
01:07:50.020I believe historically you will feel and smell what Jesus was feeling and smelling.
01:07:58.240Almost if there was a smell of vision, it's the closest thing you could get to that because you really understand what it was, what it was like.
01:08:17.120And, and I'm wearing one of our hoodies, which says, get used to different, which is a line that Jesus says to Simon on episode seven, when Simon's so upset that Jesus is calling a tax collector to join his team.
01:08:27.220And Jesus says, get used to different.
01:08:29.340And, uh, that's going to lead me into how you can watch the show, which is, you're not going to find it on your usual streaming devices or big television networks.
01:08:38.160We did this outside the system, um, and we created our own app.
01:08:53.500Uh, our, our partners, our distribution partners at angel studios literally invented this technology that allows you to cast it directly to your streaming device.
01:09:02.480So you have Apple TV, fire stick, Chromecast, um, Roku.
01:09:08.820You don't need to even enter your email address.
01:09:10.560You just literally connect it directly from your phone and it takes 30 seconds and you can be watching the show on your television.
01:09:16.880Easter Sunday night, which is our launch of season two, uh, that's going to, we're launching that with a big live stream.
01:09:24.100So, uh, that's going to be at eight o'clock Eastern on our YouTube channel, our Facebook page and the app.
01:09:30.320And that's, we're going to be watching it together all over the world.
01:09:33.080Um, and literally there's going to be most likely hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people all watching at the same time, um, because of the anticipation for season two.
01:09:41.140So that one, that episode, you can watch with us where, whatever's easiest Facebook, YouTube, or the app, but, uh, yeah, moving forward longterm, uh, the app is, is, is the thing.
01:09:51.300And, uh, if, if you're used to DVDs, we've got those two, um, we let you, we let you get those DVDs.
01:09:56.660Cause there's a lot of our, our fans who are just not wanting to embrace technology, but the app is, I will tell you, I downloaded the app and it's really simple.
01:10:06.960I am a guy, I am convinced that the Lord gives us teenagers so we can navigate technology.
01:10:15.820Uh, that may be the only thing that's good about the teenage years as a parent.
01:10:21.340Um, but, uh, it's really, really simple to use.
01:10:24.160Can tell me real quickly, where does it pick up?
01:10:26.720Uh, right where season one left leaves off, although there's a twist.
01:10:30.280So first of all, and I'm not going to give it away, but I will say season one leaves with Jesus and his current band of followers.
01:10:36.360There's seven of them leaving their hometown and going out and spreading the word with that comes bad trouble and good trouble.
01:10:44.260They stir up some trouble for the, for their enemies, but they're also attracting some enemies as well.
01:10:49.080And, uh, so you see the good coming in the bad.
01:10:52.300Um, but the opening of episode one of season two, uh, will, I promise you, uh, your jaw will drop.
01:11:00.280I'm just going to say that the first, don't miss the first 30 seconds.