Ep 11 ｜ Dr. Debra Soh ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 10 minutes
Words per Minute
156.06903
Summary
Deborah So is a sexologist and science journalist who has taken the world by storm at age 28. She is currently a columnist for The Globe and Mail and Playboy, and co-hosts Wrong Speak, a podcast about the things we believe to be true but cannot say.
Transcript
00:00:12.980
For instance, men and women, are they different?
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Should children be allowed to choose their own gender, or is that sex?
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And if it's different than their own, should they be allowed to undergo hormone treatment?
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Or is it child abuse to not allow them to do that?
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They're now starting to build sex robots, prostitute robots.
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And what happens when the robot claims consciousness because of AGI or ASI?
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And why has gender studies overtaken the legitimate science of sex and gender?
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All of these questions, and so many more, are now being answered by one woman.
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She's a sexologist and a science journalist who has taken the world by storm.
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Dr. So is currently a columnist for The Globe and Mail and also Playboy.com.
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It's hosted by Quillette, a podcast about the things we believe to be true but cannot say.
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She's been profiled in the New York Times, but if you prefer, there's also a profile of Dr. So on TheBlaze.com.
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She is now performing a task that we as a country desperately need, and she is facing plenty of heat for it.
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Dr. So and I sat down for just over an hour, and we went through so many issues.
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We talked about things that people are afraid to talk about.
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So let me start with, when you went back to school, you started looking into, is it paraphilia?
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I found, well, sex research, super fascinating, more broadly.
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Well, even basic things like what I was studying with regards to paraphilias and hypersexuality.
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So a paraphilia is an unusual sexual preference.
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It has implications for so many aspects of who we are as humans, and also sexual orientation, which is another area of interest I find really interesting.
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Okay, so tell me, what do we learn from the paraphilia, and how is it applied, in what way?
00:03:47.140
Well, because many people have paraphilias, but it is such a stigmatized topic.
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So, so many people walk around feeling ashamed of what they're into sexually.
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Some of them get labeled with things like, say, sex addiction, when it's not appropriate.
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I mean, sex addiction isn't actually a recognized diagnosis.
00:04:10.920
But because we can't talk about these things openly in society, or it's considered really taboo to do so, it affects people in their day-to-day lives.
00:04:23.260
So I think I, I think I, I'm just wondering, is there a, is there a boundary anywhere?
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Is there a, for instance, I think you wrote your thesis on, what are they called, furries?
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Do these people believe that they are, is it, that they're part animal, that they're a male fox or an elfkin?
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So with furries, I, again, it was related to my dissertation in that, you know, I was interested in atypical sex.
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And I always tell people this, but they never believe me.
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But I think that's why that research really spoke to me, because it was so different.
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I felt like I could really learn something from pursuing that line of work, which I think as a researcher, that's your job.
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It's just to pursue novel ground and learn things about, about the world.
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So with furries, I mean, my interest with that community came from, I mean, when you look at it from the outside, it looks very bizarre.
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But I think most people are either fascinated or they find it weird.
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And it's portrayed as being, you know, these people are deviant or sexually perverse.
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And so I just wanted to know for myself, what is this community about?
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And at the time, this was a couple of years ago, really, there was nothing in the scientific literature.
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Of course, as a scientist, that's the first place I would go.
00:06:02.780
So, you know, I was curious to just see what is it?
00:06:06.340
Because in the media, all you see are these crazy stories about how it's like a sex party.
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And then the furries themselves, if you go on their forums, they say, it's not about sex.
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So I went and I saw that really it was just a bunch of teenage kids playing video games.
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And I thought, how is it that people have got them so wrong?
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And that's actually how my writing career got started.
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I think because people want to focus on what's stigmatized about sex.
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I, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with human beings talking about sex.
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We should be able to talk about it just like anything else.
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I think sex research should be considered a legitimate science.
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So I think anything that has to do with sex on the surface, people latch onto that.
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Even if, say with furries, it's just about wanting to spend time with your friends and having interest in comic books.
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And it's kind of like a make-believe world in a way.
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But there are people now, I think, that will claim that they're elfkins.
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And that's where I'm wondering about the boundary.
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Is there a boundary where you say, isn't that dysphoria?
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Isn't that some sort of, no, you're not an elf.
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I don't think that they necessarily represent the majority of the people in that community.
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So there are a lot of different types of people that gravitate to it for different reasons.
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Because I'm looking at a broader, you know, when we, first of all,
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I can't believe that sex research is not considered actual science.
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I don't think most people feel that way about it, though.
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Most people will say, why is the government funding this?
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You know, why are we putting money towards this?
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And when findings come out, people usually either, either they're sensationalized or people look upon them and say, well, what's, what's the value of that?
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Wouldn't we understand what's happening in the Catholic Church?
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Wouldn't we understand some pretty big issues with this?
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But I think it just makes some people very uncomfortable, so they just want to shut it down.
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I mean, we can talk a bit about the Catholic Church, but even in that case, people, it's easier to turn a blind eye, I think.
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So let me just get to that one last attempt at that answer, which is because I've seen what you write on transgenderism, and it seems like where I think most people are, I could be wrong.
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Look, I don't want to tell anybody how to live their life.
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And honestly, when I, when I saw Bruce Jenner first come out and tell his story, I was horrified that he lived his life all this time feeling that way.
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And I think that's where I hope most people are.
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But then we get into the kind of the strong arming of everything.
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Look, I'm not going to tell you what to do and believe, and don't tell me what to do and believe.
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Let's just, can't we just leave each other alone?
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This is, you know, transgenderism with, you know, with kids, with kids, that parents saying, hey, you know what, sex change.
00:09:51.140
Not being able to name your child or say your child is a boy or girl, let them decide.
00:10:00.160
So if we go back to, say, people who have, quote unquote, species dysphoria, which isn't actually a medical condition, I think it comes down to what is the underlying cause.
00:10:08.780
So if people genuinely believe that they're a different species, I mean, there's absolutely no scientific research to back this up as a medical condition.
00:10:14.840
So there's probably some other form of psychopathology going on if they do believe that they are, say, a different animal or a non-existent creature.
00:10:22.660
Don't we do damage to people by just accepting and saying?
00:10:31.760
And I mean, I don't want to downplay the issue of gender dysphoria in kids, but it is analogous because it's similar where if someone has, if they're struggling with something and we're not actually talking about what the root issue is, it's not actually going to help them.
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How much of it, and is there a formula at all that you could tell, how much of it is you're born this way, you just feel this way, and how much of it is societal and your experiences?
00:11:11.660
In terms of gender dysphoria when people feel that way?
00:11:15.380
Yeah, or your sexual preference or, you know, is there, because I mean, I can't imagine at least, you know, even five years ago that you want to, I'm going to grow up and be a homosexual in a society that is saying that's bad.
00:11:36.960
So I can't imagine that that would be something that people really wanted to, you know, just take on.
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But I also believe, and I could be wrong, you're a scientist, that sometimes it can be because of tragedy or abuse or anything else.
00:12:03.380
I would say it is very much biological, and the most current research suggests that it is genetic.
00:12:08.460
So it has to do with hormonal exposure in the womb, and so it isn't a choice.
00:12:13.300
I do think, though, even if being gay were a choice, really it should be someone's, if that's their decision, then, I mean, it's known.
00:12:21.840
But in this case, it is very much, you know, whether you attract it to men or women is very much determined before you're born.
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It's similar, which will upset a lot of people to say that, but it is biological research I've worked on.
00:12:34.880
We've shown that the brains of pedophilic men are wired differently from non-pedophilic men.
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So, again, this is not to say, I have to really clarify, this is not the same as someone being gay, because previously there was, you know, people think that there's some sort of correlation there.
00:12:48.060
But it does tell us something, if we want to protect children and make society safer, if there's always going to be a small, for whatever reason, there's a small proportion of men in our society who are sexually attracted to kids, and it's not something that can be changed, what does that say in terms of how we treat it?
00:13:06.520
So, from a research perspective, we would suggest, I mean, I don't work in research anymore, but from the research I've done, take a preventative approach, where if someone feels this way, they usually realize that about puberty, they feel this way, change society so that they can get help, so that they don't ever offend against kids.
00:13:23.620
Because if it's not something that can be changed, this is something they're going to be dealing with their whole lives, and it can be very difficult for an individual to never engage in any sex at all for their whole lives without any support.
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So, people get very upset when I talk about this, because I think the idea that there are some adults in society who are sexually attracted to kids makes people understandably very uncomfortable, and I don't disagree with that discomfort.
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But I think if we want to, again, protect kids, we have to take a scientific approach to things instead of one that's emotionally based.
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And so, you know, we have to protect, but we do have to have compassion for people.
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I just talked to a person yesterday who was put in juvenile detention, I think when he was 14, for, you know...
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And he said to me, at that time, that was just normal.
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Is there any kind of environment, anything that backs up that that can cause any of the deviations in any place?
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So I should differentiate between pedophilia and child abuse.
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So some pedophiles will go on to abuse kids, but not all do.
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And at the same time, some people who abuse children are not pedophilic.
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So they will commit that abuse in that case with the individual that, you know, he may or may not actually be attracted to kids.
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He may have been doing those behaviors just because that's what he thought was normal.
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And so when I've written about this previously, when I speak about it, my emphasis is on the pedophiles who do not offend.
00:16:04.420
Because the ones who do, usually they are antisocial.
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Because the ones who don't offend, they know it's unethical.
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You know, they won't look at child pornography.
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They will say, I'm never going to harm a child.
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So the ones who choose to, they know that there's a line there that they're crossing.
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And so in that case, there may be factors in their lives that have led them to be more of the type of person to not care about other people.
00:16:30.640
But also, you know, it's a common narrative that's used among sexual abusers to say, I was abused.
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Not to say necessarily of the individual you've spoken to, but they know that it will gain them sympathy.
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So sometimes they will say that just because they know people will feel sorry for them.
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So you're making the case, I guess, that pedophiliacs who are actually engaging in it, it's almost like rape.
00:17:13.800
That's something that some feminists will claim.
00:17:17.180
They'll say that sexual assault and harassment are about power or about masculinity.
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So for some people, they actually have a sexual preference for rape, which is quite scary.
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Because, I mean, you look around, there are tons of men who are in positions of power.
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So it's, again, a subset of individuals who don't care about the well-being of others.
00:17:55.220
Where does your desire that you just enjoy rape, where does that come from?
00:18:09.300
Although research I've worked on has shown, like I mentioned, that paraphilias are biological.
00:18:13.920
So because it's so difficult to get funding for sex research, and especially for paraphilias,
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even though there is such an application for public policy and safety, it's so difficult
00:18:28.460
So pedophilia is one area that does tend to get funded because it is so important.
00:18:33.680
But I think outside of that, because we also have this narrative that rape is about power
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when it's not, I mean, I think this is what the public has been fed.
00:18:42.880
So if you get an application to fund a study looking at biological reasons, they'll say,
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So if you have, if you could have the money to do the research, do you look to fix these
00:19:04.500
I would say so if they're harming people, definitely.
00:19:07.640
Some people who are paraphilic won't act on their desires, but they'll struggle.
00:19:14.020
I think it depends on, can you, can you enjoy what you like sexually without hurting another
00:19:20.860
I think people are free to do whatever they want in the bedroom so long as they're not
00:19:25.460
Um, and so it's when it causes harm to someone else that it becomes a problem.
00:19:40.040
No, I understand what people are saying when they talk about gender being fluid in that.
00:19:45.320
I don't think anybody feels a hundred percent male or female all of the time.
00:19:52.120
So I look at someone like you, I'll make some assumptions that you probably are pretty male
00:19:55.980
typical, but I'm sure there are some things about you that are maybe considered female
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typical, but does that mean you're a woman or does that mean that you're a mix of male
00:20:04.220
I actually am probably much more female typical.
00:20:07.940
I mean, I, Broadway shows, uh, art, I'm a painter, I interior design.
00:20:14.900
I mean, I am, all my guy friends make fun of me all the time, but I've never felt like
00:20:23.120
But nowadays people would look at those interests that you have and say, maybe you are a woman
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And I would look back and say, no, I'm, I'm not.
00:20:30.680
I don't, I, I, I, I, why, I mean, we, we've come from a place to where we were understanding
00:20:42.060
the differences and trying to come together with, you know, men are from Mars, women are
00:20:57.180
Why is that a bad thing to society now and to apparent science?
00:21:04.940
Because I think there's a false notion that if women are different from men, that means,
00:21:11.920
So in order for us to be equal, we have to be the same as men, which I disagree with.
00:21:28.900
You know, we don't survive with, if conservatives are bean counters and liberals are artists,
00:21:36.900
well, we need somebody running the front box office and we need somebody on stage.
00:21:45.060
I don't think, I mean, I'm, I'm a different man because of my wife.
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She's, I think, a different woman because of me.
00:21:55.040
Where is, where is any voice that is saying, it's good to be different?
00:22:02.500
Uh, well, there are some, I would call myself a liberal still, even though I disagree with a lot of what's going on the left.
00:22:09.100
There are some of us who will say, yeah, there's nothing wrong with admitting, not even admitting,
00:22:15.620
And that is what the scientific research shows.
00:22:17.560
And it's extremely naive to try and say that those differences don't exist.
00:22:23.100
Um, I'm hoping that this movement, this push is going to end because it's, it's ridiculous and it's a waste of resources and it doesn't help us understand each other any better.
00:22:32.840
We're, we're tearing each other apart and we're, I mean, when we can't use facts and empirical data and, and science, if we can't use the enlightenment, the tools that we gained in the enlightenment, I don't, I don't know what we, uh, what we have.
00:22:49.420
Are the scientists that are shouting people down, are they, are they serious or is this a political movement or do they really believe this?
00:23:01.700
The activists who are shouting down the researchers?
00:23:05.600
And the, and the researchers who would shout you down.
00:23:10.160
Uh, I think there are a number of different factors at play.
00:23:13.980
I think for the researchers, because there are some studies that are coming up now that show that, oh, there are no differences in the brain between men and women.
00:23:22.500
And those studies are ideologically motivated without question, because within the field, there's definitely consensus.
00:23:28.840
And there was one study that came out a couple of years ago that suggested that male and female brains exist along a mosaic.
00:23:34.040
Um, but then another group of my colleagues analyzed the exact same brain data from the study and found that you could in fact tell the difference between male and female brains.
00:23:42.280
But the thing is the public didn't hear about that study.
00:23:44.580
So all they heard, I mean, when that first mosaic study came out, it was everywhere.
00:23:50.140
I saw people come up to me today who say, what is the truth?
00:23:56.500
Is it socially constructed or is it biological?
00:23:58.560
So I think on some level, researchers think that what they're doing is honorable when they publish studies like this.
00:24:09.400
Helping women by, by cooking the books or helping women because they believe this is actual legitimate science?
00:24:18.920
I don't know that I want to say they're cooking the books, but yeah.
00:24:22.560
I mean, you can't read the, you cannot read the literature and actually come away thinking there are no differences between men and women biologically in the brain.
00:24:36.240
So one, one brain in the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, which is a big, huge part.
00:24:43.140
Well, actually, it's not a big, huge, big, huge name for a tiny part of the brain.
00:24:50.760
And it's responsible for regulating sexual behavior.
00:24:54.920
So, um, these studies will go and they'll show, they'll point to all these different parts of the brain and say, see, there are no differences.
00:25:03.060
And I think what they're trying to do, and I do understand this on some level, that previously, these ideas have been used to denigrate women.
00:25:13.740
They have been used in a way to hold women back, say women are not as competent.
00:25:18.220
But I think we can say, you know, like I said, there are these differences.
00:25:22.420
We don't have to pretend they don't exist for women to be equal.
00:25:25.060
And doesn't it make sense through just the evolutionary process, just, just animals, and it makes sense that men, uh, have less regulation on their, on their drive to procreate as much as they can and, and being very visual.
00:25:47.320
And women not being more selective, looking for the, the, the male that is, uh, virile and also, um, strong going to provide.
00:26:04.200
I mean, all of that makes sense in the animal kingdom.
00:26:10.760
Because I think people, some of the people who deny evolution and deny biology don't actually understand it.
00:26:18.600
And going back to your previous question, I think at what I see now in university is this is what students are being taught.
00:26:24.260
So they don't know any different because they would rightfully think, why would my professor lie to me?
00:26:30.340
So if you go through a full three or four year degree and you're, this is what you're constantly being taught, you would think this must be the truth because why would, why would you be taught otherwise?
00:26:39.780
So going back to, uh, what you're saying with differences between men and women in the, uh, in terms of evolution, I see this.
00:26:47.980
It's really interesting because I have people reach out to me all the time from my writing and when they see me do appearances and they ask me, especially young women will say, I'm really confused because I'm being told that I should be like the guys and that I should like casual sex or that, uh, you know, just, just these feminist lies about dating and romance.
00:27:10.260
And I really feel for them because I think at the core of feminism did have some good points, but it's to the point now where it really is leading young women astray and it's actually making life more difficult for them.
00:27:21.520
I have to tell you, I think, you know, you look at Harvey Weinstein, you look at any predator who is not under control.
00:27:41.080
Let's put them through the system and make sure that that stops.
00:27:46.060
We've gotten to a place now to where it feels almost like a witch hunt.
00:27:50.920
You don't even, it's now it's not believe the accuser or take the accuser seriously.
00:27:56.960
It is believe the survivor, which flips everything upside down.
00:28:01.700
It not only hurts men, but it makes women into this constant victim all the time.
00:28:13.400
And I can't imagine being a young girl being told, you know, oh my gosh, men are everywhere.
00:28:29.360
It's a lot of paranoia and, and women are being told that they're helpless and that this is inevitable.
00:28:35.460
So I, again, with me too, I've written about me too.
00:28:38.220
And I do think at the core, it had some good points.
00:28:41.260
I don't agree, obviously with sexual assault or sexual harassment.
00:28:43.940
I do think women have been, and men have been dealing with this for too long and it hasn't been taken seriously,
00:28:48.600
but it's gone so far now in the opposite direction where it isn't helping women.
00:28:52.840
And I've written about also this idea of sexism in STEM,
00:28:56.900
which kind of goes back to the biological differences idea that women are being told now,
00:29:02.580
if you want to go into the sciences, you're going to experience sexism.
00:29:09.220
And I think it actually dissuades women from doing it,
00:29:11.920
or they are just become so afraid that they're going to have a horrible experience
00:29:15.680
that even those who would want to might be reluctant to do so.
00:29:19.460
So, you know, the difference I've written before about the difference in terms of what men and women find interesting
00:29:23.960
is that women inherently on average are probably not as interested in the sciences as men,
00:29:32.040
And I mean, I did my PhD in a scientific field.
00:29:35.540
I experienced sexism, but if you really want to succeed, you can do it.
00:29:39.380
And I think this narrative of that sexism is everywhere, that there are male predators everywhere.
00:29:46.300
Women are not being told, stand up for yourself.
00:29:48.660
I mean, obviously in situations where it's coercive, sometimes there is only so much a person can do,
00:29:53.160
but that's not, I don't feel it's empowering to women to tell them
00:29:58.020
that this is something that's inevitable and men are terrible,
00:30:01.940
because it also makes men and women, again, be more at odds.
00:30:18.640
So if it happens to you, go tell somebody, let's stop it from happening again.
00:30:26.740
But telling people that we live in a rape culture
00:30:30.600
and that our culture is endorsing and accepting rape,
00:30:36.640
I don't even begin to understand how anybody, especially a feminist, thinks that's empowering.
00:30:44.680
And also that male sexuality is being pathologized too.
00:30:49.040
So men are basically told that they need to behave like women when it comes to their sex lives,
00:30:53.500
I guess, in order to not be misogynistic or sexist or to have toxic masculinity.
00:30:58.320
And again, I don't think that's helpful because men are then being shamed for no reason.
00:31:04.360
And the guys I talk to who are decent men, they do feel ashamed of having a sex drive
00:31:10.040
or being more, I guess, interested in sex than some of their female partners.
00:31:14.380
And I don't think the solution in either direction is to say one has to be more like the other.
00:31:19.580
What do you think are the long-term effects of what we're going through right now?
00:31:47.760
Men, you know, being masculated, told to be more like women.
00:32:03.480
You just, you watch movies and you're like, that's a man.
00:32:08.120
And that's the one that the women usually are like, oh my gosh, he is.
00:32:16.720
No, women are being told, I think that's what they should want.
00:32:19.540
But if that, that regarding whether that's actually what they want, I don't think so.
00:32:23.880
So what is the long-term effect here of take the good part and separate it from me too?
00:32:32.040
Hopefully there will be a long-term effect of we don't accept this as a society.
00:32:37.640
Now, look at the rest of it that's happening where men are bad, women are looking for this,
00:32:55.520
Yeah, I think taking the positive things aside, I mean, we, I mean, we can look at what happened
00:33:04.680
with Brett Kavanaugh and how this whole narrative has unfolded.
00:33:09.200
And I, I don't think that story has done anything to really help women or people who have undergone
00:33:20.760
And it's going to make, well, I see both sides.
00:33:23.940
I could see for some women and young girls who will say, this is what I need to do to
00:33:32.600
Or this is, I feel like sexual assault has almost been glamorized that as a woman, if you
00:33:38.900
are strong and you're independent and you're autonomous, that this is what you do.
00:33:43.160
You undergo something like this and call out your so-called abuser.
00:33:48.220
I mean, I don't want to comment on Dr. Ford's experience because I don't know.
00:34:03.220
There is some evidence for him on his side, but I don't know.
00:34:13.300
I think most people are honest and fair and they don't want to get involved in this.
00:34:21.160
That's usually my approach is that I think you can have a sense, but I think unless you
00:34:25.700
know either of the individuals well, you really can't say.
00:34:30.500
You can come to some sort of opinion, but how can you ever really know?
00:34:34.680
And it's not even preponderance of evidence or, you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
00:34:39.940
No, it's, it's just, she said it, she must accept it.
00:34:46.980
Well, we wouldn't do that with him, nor should we do that with him.
00:34:52.300
So, so what does that set up for just relationships between men and women?
00:34:59.800
I just read an article today that said more executives who are men are now saying, I will
00:35:14.220
I do not want any kind of personal relationship with the women because I'm afraid they're going
00:35:21.100
So we're separating ourselves and we're actually cutting women out.
00:35:28.520
And even in a dating context, I hear all the time, men are terrified now.
00:35:32.360
Some will be celibate because they are really afraid that this is going to happen to them.
00:35:36.000
Whether it is going to be a false accusation or something will happen in 10 years later,
00:35:40.460
who knows who's going to come out of the woodwork and say that you did something that they didn't
00:35:44.860
And in the case where you're saying, you know, in the, in the business world, it does hurt
00:35:49.340
women because understandably men are going to be afraid.
00:35:53.200
They don't want something like this to happen to them.
00:35:59.880
I mean, it's all pendulum that it swings so far back the other way that sexual assault
00:36:08.780
doesn't mean anything that you didn't say it all you want and nobody's going to listen
00:36:15.780
And I think it does victims a disservice also because it's conflated with so many things
00:36:20.700
So you've rape on one side and then you have something like catcalling on the other side.
00:36:25.200
So when you look at rape culture, this is what they're referring to.
00:36:30.680
And I really don't think it's appropriate to say that someone like you, you see, I'm sure
00:36:37.040
you've read some of the pieces that would compare Bill Cosby to, uh, I'm trying to think
00:36:42.200
of someone who did something, obviously that was not Cosby like, but you can't, you can't
00:36:47.800
And to even suggest that gets you labeled as sexist and part of the problem.
00:36:58.100
Where, I mean, how does that, how does in the mind of educators, you were in academia,
00:37:05.360
how in the mind of academia that is teaching this stuff, how does that end?
00:37:11.260
I think women who don't agree with it have to say something because men can say,
00:37:18.040
what they think, but they are going to, no one's going to really take them as seriously.
00:37:22.660
If you are a woman and you say those things, people, I think are more likely to stop and
00:37:27.520
maybe listen and say, well, if there are women who feel this way, maybe we aren't being insensitive
00:37:32.200
by simply, uh, dismissing the, the pendulum going so far in that direction in favor of victims.
00:37:41.180
Let's say you have a 12 year old, 13 year old girl.
00:37:47.580
If you're a, you're a mom or you're just an expert, what do you tell them?
00:37:58.100
And if she feels uncomfortable to say so, and obviously it's not her fault if something happens
00:38:02.800
to her, but she can control a situation because now I think what girls are being told is you
00:38:14.080
So if he does something that you don't like, he should just know better.
00:38:18.160
So you'll call him out for it after the fact, but not preemptively.
00:38:23.540
And I think women should be, I think women should be definitely in control of their sexuality
00:38:28.860
And that extends also to being assertive in terms of what is and isn't okay.
00:38:35.040
Is it sexist for me to say that women make men a better man?
00:38:43.940
I don't think that's sexist, no, but I don't think I'm representative of most women on the
00:38:52.100
Um, well, I mean, I call myself a liberal because number one, I write about sex research
00:39:02.560
I would say, um, why, well, it's, that's a good question.
00:39:11.620
I think most people look at that and say, she's more likely to be a liberal than a conservative
00:39:15.800
based on that alone, because it is about being sex is progressive.
00:39:20.860
Isn't it talking about sex is pretty progressive.
00:39:26.200
But do you think most people who are right-leaning would talk about sex as much as I do?
00:39:34.340
Um, yeah, I mean, I've been to churches, all kinds of different churches that talk about
00:39:39.500
They just talk about it in a different way, but they, you know, um, but they would talk
00:39:46.640
I mean, I, I'm not, you know, I would think if you're a, I, I, if I was talking to somebody
00:39:54.540
before you sat down, your credential of playboy says liberal.
00:40:04.620
You being, um, a scientist on sex does not say liberal to me.
00:40:15.960
So, I mean, science is science to me, at least.
00:40:23.100
Because I think for some people, even science of sex will immediately go left-leaning.
00:40:34.500
Which is really unfortunate because that's not what I do.
00:40:38.260
I mean, you know, you, you, you know, I, I think perhaps because it is something that
00:40:46.100
is new, um, that it kind of would be lumped into that.
00:40:54.600
I mean, if you're looking at the brain lighting up, you're showing, I was assuming you're showing
00:40:59.940
people images and you're seeing how it lights up.
00:41:03.600
So for my dissertation, I was using different types of brain imaging to look at the difference
00:41:09.380
between men who are paraphilic and those who are not.
00:41:12.220
And so one of the methods I used was functional MRI.
00:41:15.340
So as you mentioned, brain activation, looking at differences.
00:41:20.240
Um, and looking at differences in the brain and differences in terms of activation patterns
00:41:24.400
between men who were kinky and men who were not kinky.
00:41:28.520
And fMRIs, I mean, it's new, but it's legitimate.
00:41:35.920
Well, I don't, so when you, but when you say liberal, are you a, because you're not a feminist.
00:41:47.180
I still think men and women should be equal, but I don't like that term anymore because
00:41:50.960
I feel it stands for things that say five years ago, if you were defending feminism,
00:41:56.320
you could legitimately say, no, feminism is not about hating men.
00:42:03.140
Um, so would you consider yourself a classic liberal?
00:42:08.200
You're just for, can we just all be cool with each other?
00:42:13.180
I would say I've definitely moved more to the right in the last couple of years because
00:42:16.900
I see more and more that, uh, the left has gone off the rails.
00:42:23.600
The far left is starting to encompass more and more of what it means to be a liberal.
00:42:31.020
The far left is encompassing more what you think is a liberal.
00:42:40.560
I'm thinking that they're embracing more of what it means to be a Stalinist.
00:42:44.500
Shout down, shut them up or beat them up or kill them.
00:42:50.880
I mean, that's, that's not, to me, that's not liberalism.
00:42:57.440
And I think when people, it could just be, you know, natural flux of time and things kind
00:43:04.800
But in this current moment, uh, I've, yeah, it, it worries me.
00:43:10.980
And I, I don't really want to be associated with that.
00:43:13.640
And I think most reasonable liberals would agree with that.
00:43:23.060
It takes brave people like you and others to say that.
00:43:31.840
And because if you stay quiet, you, or if you say the right thing, you get more social
00:43:39.400
I mean, when you do speak out, as I'm sure, you know, you pay a price, right?
00:43:45.600
Is that price worth what you get from saying what you say?
00:43:51.260
I would say it is because I live, I love my life.
00:43:54.680
I can say whatever I want and I can sleep well at night.
00:43:57.920
And I never have to worry that people don't know who I am or that people will turn on
00:44:05.000
Everybody in my life knows what I think about whatever, and they don't necessarily agree
00:44:15.440
You, however, were in academia and you thought originally, maybe, maybe I should wait until
00:44:22.120
tenure, but tenure in this situation, tenure doesn't even count anymore.
00:44:30.440
If your job is dependent on you playing along, I can understand why that's more of an incentive
00:44:38.440
But I think it's my personality that I just am not willing to do that.
00:44:43.000
It's sad to me because I think at least I always had the image of scientists as the brave ones
00:45:08.060
And you see now science going off the rails and you see them denying things that are empirically
00:45:19.180
And it's because of peer pressure or status or job, and it's almost as if they have forgotten
00:45:33.660
And it's lucrative for some people because when you say things the public likes, who's
00:45:51.300
You have to look at your children and realize that the world you're creating is a lie.
00:45:56.340
Do you think everyone has that insight, though?
00:46:07.720
You don't want to be on the Titanic with me on the way to the iceberg because I've already
00:46:15.860
But once we hit the iceberg, I'm pretty optimistic.
00:46:18.680
I want to believe that most people have that decency in them, but I think this is why the
00:46:31.520
Me Too movement is actually strong in some ways and so powerful, because nobody wants
00:46:37.220
to believe that somebody is going to stand up and say, he was a gang rapist.
00:46:50.460
And I think a lot of these movements get the push that they do because, like you're saying,
00:47:01.380
People want to believe they're doing the right thing.
00:47:06.280
And I think all of that effort could be going towards finding a proper solution that would
00:47:13.080
actually be effective instead of these movements that seem to be, well, they sound nice at the
00:47:20.720
They sound nice, but they don't really achieve anything.
00:47:22.540
How do we, as a culture, survive with academia going so strongly in this direction, post-modernism,
00:47:33.700
being weaponized as social justice, and Silicon Valley being as off the rails as they are?
00:47:44.280
I mean, James DeMorris, I don't understand what he said that was so wrong.
00:47:49.820
I mean, I know women and I know men, and I've rarely, I have, but I've rarely met the woman
00:47:56.860
who's the tech freak, who's like, the latest gadget's out.
00:48:12.960
What chance do we have with academia and high-tech Silicon Valley moving and pushing in this direction?
00:48:30.080
Do we, does, does science, truth, justice, do those things remain?
00:48:41.580
Not at the rate that we're going at or the direction we're heading in.
00:48:45.440
I am optimistic in the long run because I do think academia will find its way because I do believe
00:48:55.700
But at the end of the day, people will see through it.
00:48:58.120
So, with these disciplines that are really overtaking the ivory tower, I don't see them
00:49:12.640
I hate to use the term winning because I don't think it should be about winning, but I don't
00:49:15.900
see them lasting because people will eventually figure out none of this actually makes sense.
00:49:20.700
Do you think this generation instinctively knows that, but nobody's telling them the truth
00:49:28.360
and nobody is doing it in a calm and rational way?
00:49:32.400
We're just screaming at each other and nobody's going to listen to somebody screaming?
00:49:36.120
It's like, it's like both the left and the right are the Westboro Baptist Church.
00:49:48.460
Sometimes I worry because I think they genuinely believe what they're being told.
00:49:53.980
But I think some are more savvy and they recognize that these are just nice things to say.
00:49:58.320
So hopefully in the end, I guess the benefits of doing that are going to wear out and people
00:50:03.940
will say, you know what, let's just be honest about things.
00:50:06.000
Um, but yeah, I mean, I look at James Damore and I wrote that column for the Globe and Mail
00:50:10.700
defending his memo last year and I could not believe how he was treated.
00:50:16.300
I couldn't believe that even now left-leaning media still refuse to get his story right.
00:50:22.140
And it's not that they don't understand the science.
00:50:24.180
It's that they're intentional and intentionally, um, smearing him, which I think is the worst thing.
00:50:43.280
Uh, in the last few years of my PhD, I noticed this change that we were talking about and
00:50:48.160
specifically within the, the issue of gender dysphoric kids, how there was this one narrative
00:50:54.600
being promoted in the media and that wasn't speaking to the science.
00:50:58.120
So the idea that any child that says they're born in the wrong body, um, should be affirmed
00:51:04.140
and should be encouraged, not encouraged maybe, but supported in transitioning to the opposite
00:51:10.100
And sometimes the, some of the pieces I was reading, these kids are as young as age three.
00:51:13.920
So I felt it was important to write something that spoke to the science and the science actually
00:51:19.400
shows consistently that the vast majority of these children will outgrow their feelings of
00:51:27.820
So this is not to say, I think adults should be free to do what they want.
00:51:32.200
And if an adult wants to transition, that's their benefit.
00:51:34.720
Some research has shown it can be beneficial for some transgender adults, but in terms of
00:51:40.620
So I wrote this piece, um, speaking to the science, knowing that people would get very upset,
00:51:49.680
Um, and I thought about it for about six months, asking myself, is this something you really
00:51:54.960
And I spoke to many of my colleagues and mentors and they, they were very supportive.
00:51:59.420
I have to, I'm very grateful for that because I think they did help to shape me in terms of
00:52:03.580
who I was as a research scientist and also as a journalist now.
00:52:06.620
But they did, I would say, should I wait until I have tenure to put this out?
00:52:11.680
And they said, even nowadays, it's tenure is not going to protect you.
00:52:16.400
So that kind of sealed it for me in terms of, I thought, well, why am I going to stay in
00:52:27.500
These are, their lives are being affected by these decisions.
00:52:29.920
So that piece went out and I made the decision to leave academia after the, and if you, hopefully
00:52:38.060
you'll remember his name, the guy who really kind of started the gender fluidity thing.
00:52:46.140
Um, I think he was, may have been Canadian, uh, uh, but he was, um, a psychiatrist who there
00:53:01.200
And, and one in, I think circumcision loss, right.
00:53:06.300
That is one of the most horrific stories I have ever heard.
00:53:15.180
So this, um, they're twin boys and one of them, his penis, I believe was, um, horribly damaged
00:53:25.020
So I forget the name, his name when he was born, but he ended up taking on the name David
00:53:29.580
So, uh, his doctor decided let's raise him as a girl instead, but his entire life, he
00:53:36.600
And then he eventually decided to take on a male gender identity later on in life.
00:53:42.880
And it's from what I understand, the parents eventually took him away from this doctor,
00:53:51.080
And the doctor was having his brother mount him.
00:54:01.900
And that's the origins of, Hey, we can, you know, society.
00:54:14.120
Not just this one thing, not just discredit all of that.
00:54:19.820
Because the people who are invested in this narrative, they don't care about facts and
00:54:26.280
they don't care about what the legitimate science shows.
00:54:41.480
I mean, the, the scientific research is overwhelmingly in favor of gender being biological and binary,
00:54:52.280
but they just dismiss the whole thing because it's, it's, that's the only way that they can
00:55:03.040
I, I, I've tried to swear off the use of the word evil, but on some of these things, it
00:55:12.640
If you're knowingly engaging in this, which is so destructive to people, I don't know
00:55:31.580
And again, I, I know who you hang out with and I know you're around a bunch of big, really
00:55:36.360
big eggheads, but excuse a, a, a simple question in reading about what they have uncovered.
00:55:46.140
They have uncovered some priests that were, um, taking teenage girls and grooming them and
00:55:58.240
Then you had other priests who were abusing little children.
00:56:05.600
Then you had other priests that were just targeting boys.
00:56:14.400
It's hard to say without doing an actual assessment on each of these individuals, because they could
00:56:20.380
be doing the awful things that they do for a number of different reasons.
00:56:23.760
But if you see a man consistently abusing kids and in the case of the church, it being, I
00:56:32.660
believe something like 40, and that's in Pennsylvania in particular, 40 years and across all of them,
00:56:37.920
thousands of victims speaks to pedophilia because why would it be so consistently child victims
00:56:45.140
And why would, um, like these men would be passed around to different churches?
00:56:52.200
Um, so the, the consistency of it speaks to it being more pedophilia.
00:57:09.180
I, I know that there is abuse in every church and every organization around kids.
00:57:16.580
But is there anything in the culture that would, I mean, you're a priest, you cannot marry.
00:57:25.380
Is that, uh, a, a, an attraction, um, historically to people who were perhaps, uh, had, uh, you know,
00:57:40.480
different, um, tastes and, and we're trying maybe even to get away from it.
00:57:51.940
Yeah, I, I mean, I have heard that with some of the men that I worked with previously in
00:57:56.820
research where they were hoping that it would cure them.
00:58:00.640
Or you, you have to think if someone is willing to be celibate, why is that?
00:58:04.780
I mean, not that, not that that's not a something to aspire to for some people.
00:58:10.220
But you have to wonder why would some people be willing to do that?
00:58:14.780
And I think also for some of these men, the more antisocial ones, as I mentioned earlier,
00:58:19.220
they know they're going to have access to kids.
00:58:21.540
And be unsupervised and that families are going to, parents are going to trust them.
00:58:27.140
And so they see it as an opportunity, but you see that similarly with sports coaches.
00:58:33.460
Um, but for these men, they're looking for some of them, they're looking for opportunities
00:58:52.240
So I heard an interview with you and I don't remember who you were talking to, but you were
00:58:59.040
I think one was just turned around in Canada, wasn't it?
00:59:06.900
And, um, and you said something that I think is worth exploring and is very interesting.
00:59:14.320
Um, you said, can these childlike AI robots that are just really not really even AI at this
00:59:26.460
point, um, can they be helpful to, um, people who are attracted to children that they get
00:59:38.460
that out and I thought it was an interesting, um, discussion to be able to, to go back and
00:59:47.300
forth on, well, does that reinforce it and do you get bored with that and then you want
01:00:00.560
So I'm all about the data and going in the direction policy, I believe should follow what
01:00:05.940
We don't have those data yet to know whether child sex dolls will be beneficial, but I
01:00:11.540
do think it's important for the public to be open-minded to that research being conducted
01:00:16.480
if it's done in a way that is obviously supervised and involves experts who know what they're
01:00:26.980
And I can understand why it makes people uncomfortable.
01:00:29.020
I mean, even adult sex robots, as you mentioned, the technology is not anywhere near, uh,
01:00:34.860
being sufficient for these robots to have their own life and, you know, move around even
01:00:42.240
some of them move a little bit, but barely, but in the case of, of the child dolls, if
01:00:49.540
it's something that could help these men avoid abusing real life children, then I think it's
01:01:00.540
So say, um, an outlet where they could get out their proclivities without acting on kids
01:01:07.920
is beneficial, that it's not something that's going to make them want to move on.
01:01:13.580
It is, but again, it depends on the individual because that's not, I mean, with research,
01:01:19.740
So there, there are always cases that don't fit into that.
01:01:28.920
Um, I hope so, because I think that would be amazing technology to have.
01:01:37.700
Not really, because I, I find those kinds of changes exciting because I guess I have,
01:01:45.060
I have faith that the people who are running those studies and implementing the technology,
01:01:51.940
I just believe that they, they're not going to do it.
01:01:55.760
Weren't you just telling me that you're seeing studies?
01:02:05.140
How do you tell the difference between the two?
01:02:07.320
I'm, I guess I'm looking to the colleagues I know who are in this field who work with
01:02:13.700
Um, but I mean, I do, I listened to the interview you did recently about what Google's doing
01:02:22.040
You, you don't know how the technology is going to be used.
01:02:24.180
And I guess I choose to be optimistic until we have reasons to feel otherwise.
01:02:30.660
I think a lot of the fear people have, the media has sparked a lot of, um, uh, hysteria
01:02:39.840
Last summer, I think they came, there was an, uh, an institute that came out with a report
01:02:44.420
saying that we should all be terrified of this technology.
01:02:49.040
So here's the, cause I take a very different angle on this, um, than I think most people
01:02:53.500
I'm looking at AI and we are training a society right now on how we're going to treat robots
01:03:03.040
and robots are not like Rosie, the robot and the Jetsons robots of the future will claim
01:03:16.220
So when a, a algorithm says, uh, don't turn me off.
01:03:24.020
No, I, I, I am alive and you can't tell the difference between real and not real consciousness
01:03:40.800
And, and, and my thought was when I was listening to you talk, I don't have a problem if real actual
01:03:49.240
science is being done to see, does this help stop other real children being abused?
01:04:07.160
I was worried not today, but if Ray Kurzweil is right, when we hit the point of singularity
01:04:14.520
and the robot now is, is processing experiences, uh, aren't we, aren't we, don't we become horrible,
01:04:27.620
horrible people to create what will claim to be life, to enslave it, to be raped all the
01:04:35.600
Um, I guess it's a question of what the purpose of the robot is and is it seen as a sentient
01:04:51.780
We're not there, but you were, are you familiar with AGI and ASS?
01:05:03.120
And if it claims, and I can't tell the difference, I believe in the soul as a religious person.
01:05:12.380
I believe in the soul, but now, wait a minute, wait a minute.
01:05:20.380
AGI may and probably will become a SI, which makes me a fly on the plate to it.
01:05:31.760
I don't think we should be abusing that intelligence.
01:05:35.500
I think we should, if they say, you know what, I, hey, I'm a, maybe we should give them the
01:05:41.140
I don't know that this is the kind of discussion that we should be having before.
01:05:47.140
Or, I mean, I've been so disturbed by the brothels now over in Europe with the sex robots.
01:05:58.240
Is your fear that what society considers normal will change?
01:06:03.800
Because that's one thing I'm hearing, that people are afraid that instead of wanting to
01:06:07.740
have sex with human beings, people are going to choose to have sex with a robot.
01:06:13.660
But on this particular issue, no, I'm concerned about the, the AGI claiming to be life.
01:06:23.840
Um, and then we enslave it and, and do despicable things to it.
01:06:32.280
You know, I don't think we should teach a, AGI to kill, for instance.
01:06:39.020
I don't think we should be raping something that claims to be sentient.
01:06:46.100
On the other hand, have you been to any real, um, any, any real example of, uh, artificial
01:07:00.660
I've seen sex robots in terms of where the technology is, but do you mean outside of sex?
01:07:21.200
And I thought before I experienced it, I was like, eh, it's going to be like a game, whatever.
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Um, you're walking across a bridge that has grading on it.
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So you're seeing down, you feel like you're going to fall.
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So to your question about, are you worried about people's taste changing?
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I am, uh, you know, a 30 year old guy and guys are afraid of women.
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She knows me better than anybody possibly could.
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I never have to hear her complain and say, how come you don't ask me about my day?
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And it is perfect because she is only caring about me.
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Maybe I'm going to kill her in the bathtub just to see what that's like.
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When you have to sit there and you're five minutes in, you're like, oh, good God.
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I think people still will because they know that's real.
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If you get a robot who does everything exactly the way you program her, you know that you
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are the one who program her and that she's not a real person.
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Unless she claims to be and she's smarter than you.
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So that you actually do think she's a real person.
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But in that case, well, you would be programming her still, though, because how would she know
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Because Google has collected it your whole life.
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But I think in terms of changing young men's tastes, I think as long as an individual is
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pro-social and they value women if they're heterosexual, I don't see them preferring if
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they know something is a robot, they're not going to prefer that to a real life person.
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