The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 11 ｜ Dr. Debra Soh ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

00:00:00.000 The Blaze Radio Network, on demand.

00:00:08.520 So many things are up for grabs, it seems.

00:00:12.980 For instance, men and women, are they different?

00:00:17.980 What's the difference between gender and sex? 0.98

00:00:21.000 Should children be allowed to choose their own gender, or is that sex? 0.94

00:00:25.120 And if it's different than their own, should they be allowed to undergo hormone treatment?

00:00:30.000 Or is that child abuse?

00:00:32.160 Or is it child abuse to not allow them to do that?

00:00:36.560 What is the Me Too movement?

00:00:39.420 What's it accomplishing?

00:00:40.460 What are the negatives?

00:00:41.360 What are the positives? 0.99

00:00:43.360 They're now starting to build sex robots, prostitute robots. 0.99

00:00:48.380 Is that a good idea, or is that a bad idea?

00:00:50.960 And what happens when the robot claims consciousness because of AGI or ASI?

00:00:56.700 How do we determine any of this?

00:01:00.820 Through science?

00:01:02.420 What does science mean anymore?

00:01:05.360 How about academia?

00:01:07.320 And why has gender studies overtaken the legitimate science of sex and gender? 1.00

00:01:13.720 Should institutions institute racial quotas?

00:01:17.080 All of these questions, and so many more, are now being answered by one woman.

00:01:23.300 Her name is Deborah So.

00:01:25.120 She is a renegade. 0.95

00:01:27.340 She's a sexologist and a science journalist who has taken the world by storm. 1.00

00:01:32.940 She's only 28 years old.

00:01:34.980 28.

00:01:36.220 And she already has a PhD in psychology.

00:01:40.460 Dr. So is currently a columnist for The Globe and Mail and also Playboy.com.

00:01:45.060 She also co-hosts Wrong Speak.

00:01:47.760 It's hosted by Quillette, a podcast about the things we believe to be true but cannot say.

00:01:55.020 She's been profiled in the New York Times, but if you prefer, there's also a profile of Dr. So on TheBlaze.com.

00:02:02.040 This is just the beginning for Dr. So.

00:02:04.960 She is now performing a task that we as a country desperately need, and she is facing plenty of heat for it.

00:02:12.620 Dr. So and I sat down for just over an hour, and we went through so many issues.

00:02:18.920 We talked about things that people are afraid to talk about.

00:02:23.500 Today's episode, Dr. Deborah So.

00:02:26.740 So let me start with, when you went back to school, you started looking into, is it paraphilia?

00:02:53.940 That's right.

00:02:54.400 Paraphilia, and hypersexuality?

00:02:58.860 Yes.

00:03:00.940 Why? What was it that drew you to that?

00:03:05.460 I found, well, sex research, super fascinating, more broadly.

00:03:10.660 But with those topics in particular...

00:03:13.320 Wait, stop there. Why super fascinating?

00:03:16.500 What do we learn?

00:03:17.680 Well, even basic things like what I was studying with regards to paraphilias and hypersexuality.

00:03:23.620 So a paraphilia is an unusual sexual preference.

00:03:27.460 It has implications for so many aspects of who we are as humans, and also sexual orientation, which is another area of interest I find really interesting.

00:03:36.200 Okay, so tell me, what do we learn from the paraphilia, and how is it applied, in what way?

00:03:47.140 Well, because many people have paraphilias, but it is such a stigmatized topic.

00:03:53.860 So, so many people walk around feeling ashamed of what they're into sexually.

00:03:59.580 Right.

00:04:00.300 They are not happy.

00:04:02.420 Some of them get labeled with things like, say, sex addiction, when it's not appropriate.

00:04:07.660 I mean, sex addiction isn't actually a recognized diagnosis.

00:04:10.920 But because we can't talk about these things openly in society, or it's considered really taboo to do so, it affects people in their day-to-day lives.

00:04:20.640 They're unhappy, they're unhappy, they suffer.

00:04:22.680 Right.

00:04:23.260 So I think I, I think I, I'm just wondering, is there a, is there a boundary anywhere?

00:04:35.600 Is there a, for instance, I think you wrote your thesis on, what are they called, furries?

00:04:46.400 Oh, no, that was a, that was a side project.

00:04:48.860 Okay, side project.

00:04:49.340 Okay, so.

00:04:50.460 It's related.

00:04:50.920 Do these people believe that they are, is it, that they're part animal, that they're a male fox or an elfkin?

00:05:03.900 I think it depends on the person.

00:05:05.740 So with furries, I, again, it was related to my dissertation in that, you know, I was interested in atypical sex.

00:05:11.640 And I always tell people this, but they never believe me.

00:05:13.940 I'm very vanilla.

00:05:14.900 I'm not kinky in my personal life.

00:05:16.440 I'm very traditional, monogamous.

00:05:17.800 But I think that's why that research really spoke to me, because it was so different.

00:05:21.340 Right.

00:05:21.500 I felt like I could really learn something from pursuing that line of work, which I think as a researcher, that's your job.

00:05:26.320 It's just to pursue novel ground and learn things about, about the world.

00:05:30.440 Right.

00:05:30.540 So with furries, I mean, my interest with that community came from, I mean, when you look at it from the outside, it looks very bizarre.

00:05:39.600 I mean, I don't judge.

00:05:41.420 I don't judge.

00:05:41.840 But I think most people are either fascinated or they find it weird.

00:05:44.660 And it's portrayed as being, you know, these people are deviant or sexually perverse.

00:05:49.800 And so I just wanted to know for myself, what is this community about?

00:05:53.980 And at the time, this was a couple of years ago, really, there was nothing in the scientific literature.

00:05:57.560 Of course, as a scientist, that's the first place I would go.

00:05:59.980 There was nothing published on, on these kids.

00:06:02.780 So, you know, I was curious to just see what is it?

00:06:06.340 Because in the media, all you see are these crazy stories about how it's like a sex party.

00:06:10.680 And then the furries themselves, if you go on their forums, they say, it's not about sex.

00:06:14.180 We're just having fun.

00:06:15.340 Right.

00:06:15.460 So I went and I saw that really it was just a bunch of teenage kids playing video games.

00:06:19.540 And it was, it was so anticlimactic.

00:06:21.200 And I thought, how is it that people have got them so wrong?

00:06:24.700 So I wrote about that.

00:06:25.620 It got published.

00:06:26.260 And that's actually how my writing career got started.

00:06:28.280 So how is it that it got, it was so wrong?

00:06:32.840 How did the media get it so wrong?

00:06:34.200 Yeah.

00:06:34.520 How, why?

00:06:35.260 Why do we get it so wrong?

00:06:36.800 I think because people want to focus on what's stigmatized about sex.

00:06:41.000 I'm very sex positive.

00:06:42.080 I, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with human beings talking about sex.

00:06:46.280 We should be able to talk about it just like anything else.

00:06:48.300 I think sex research should be considered a legitimate science.

00:06:51.260 So I think anything that has to do with sex on the surface, people latch onto that.

00:06:56.220 Even if, say with furries, it's just about wanting to spend time with your friends and having interest in comic books.

00:07:01.500 And it's kind of like a make-believe world in a way.

00:07:04.600 But there are people now, I think, that will claim that they're elfkins.

00:07:10.380 Oh yeah.

00:07:10.980 Right?

00:07:11.200 Yeah.

00:07:11.920 And that's where I'm wondering about the boundary.

00:07:15.540 Is there a boundary where you say, isn't that dysphoria? 0.73

00:07:20.380 Isn't that some sort of, no, you're not an elf.

00:07:23.520 Right.

00:07:24.020 Yeah.

00:07:24.320 I don't think that they necessarily represent the majority of the people in that community.

00:07:29.460 I mean, that community is very heterogeneous.

00:07:31.540 So there are a lot of different types of people that gravitate to it for different reasons.

00:07:34.640 So take it out of that community.

00:07:36.580 Okay.

00:07:36.780 Because I'm looking at a broader, you know, when we, first of all,

00:07:40.740 I can't believe that sex research is not considered actual science.

00:07:45.460 It's one of the biggest drivers of mankind.

00:07:49.160 Well, I'm glad you feel that way.

00:07:51.100 I don't think most people feel that way about it, though.

00:07:53.300 Most people will say, why is the government funding this?

00:07:55.900 You know, why are we putting money towards this?

00:07:57.520 And when findings come out, people usually either, either they're sensationalized or people look upon them and say, well, what's, what's the value of that?

00:08:07.200 Wouldn't we understand dysphoria?

00:08:10.580 Wouldn't we understand what's happening in the Catholic Church?

00:08:13.620 Wouldn't we understand some pretty big issues with this?

00:08:16.560 You would think so.

00:08:18.080 You're right.

00:08:18.380 But I think it just makes some people very uncomfortable, so they just want to shut it down.

00:08:21.340 I mean, we can talk a bit about the Catholic Church, but even in that case, people, it's easier to turn a blind eye, I think.

00:08:28.140 That's frightening.

00:08:28.620 So let me just get to that one last attempt at that answer, which is because I've seen what you write on transgenderism, and it seems like where I think most people are, I could be wrong.

00:08:44.720 Look, I don't want to tell anybody how to live their life.

00:08:47.440 And honestly, when I, when I saw Bruce Jenner first come out and tell his story, I was horrified that he lived his life all this time feeling that way.

00:08:59.460 I can't imagine what that would be like.

00:09:02.300 I wouldn't want to go through that.

00:09:04.660 I'm not going to judge him on things.

00:09:07.640 And I think that's where I hope most people are.

00:09:11.280 But then we get into the kind of the strong arming of everything.

00:09:20.360 Look, I'm not going to tell you what to do and believe, and don't tell me what to do and believe.

00:09:25.920 Let's just, can't we just leave each other alone?

00:09:30.000 Where is the place of, no, this is unhealthy.

00:09:35.540 This is unhealthy.

00:09:36.560 This is, you know, transgenderism with, you know, with kids, with kids, that parents saying, hey, you know what, sex change. 0.51

00:09:47.900 Wait a minute, wait a minute.

00:09:49.440 That's not good.

00:09:51.140 Not being able to name your child or say your child is a boy or girl, let them decide.

00:09:55.920 Is that healthy?

00:09:57.680 I'm asking the question.

00:09:58.820 All right.

00:09:59.100 I see what you're saying.

00:10:00.160 So if we go back to, say, people who have, quote unquote, species dysphoria, which isn't actually a medical condition, I think it comes down to what is the underlying cause.

00:10:08.780 So if people genuinely believe that they're a different species, I mean, there's absolutely no scientific research to back this up as a medical condition.

00:10:14.840 So there's probably some other form of psychopathology going on if they do believe that they are, say, a different animal or a non-existent creature.

00:10:22.660 Don't we do damage to people by just accepting and saying?

00:10:29.200 Oh, yeah, you're a fox. 0.96

00:10:31.580 Yeah.

00:10:31.760 And I mean, I don't want to downplay the issue of gender dysphoria in kids, but it is analogous because it's similar where if someone has, if they're struggling with something and we're not actually talking about what the root issue is, it's not actually going to help them.

00:10:46.280 So what is, let's take transgenderism.

00:10:52.020 Let's take all of sex. 0.72

00:10:53.620 Sure.

00:10:53.860 How much of it, and is there a formula at all that you could tell, how much of it is you're born this way, you just feel this way, and how much of it is societal and your experiences?

00:11:11.660 In terms of gender dysphoria when people feel that way?

00:11:15.380 Yeah, or your sexual preference or, you know, is there, because I mean, I can't imagine at least, you know, even five years ago that you want to, I'm going to grow up and be a homosexual in a society that is saying that's bad.

00:11:36.460 Right.

00:11:36.960 So I can't imagine that that would be something that people really wanted to, you know, just take on.

00:11:42.420 I believe you're born that way.

00:11:43.820 Right.

00:11:44.920 But I also believe, and I could be wrong, you're a scientist, that sometimes it can be because of tragedy or abuse or anything else.

00:11:56.960 Is there anything that backs that up?

00:11:58.500 For homosexuality? 1.00

00:11:59.600 Or any of these?

00:12:01.640 For homosexuality, no. 0.98

00:12:03.380 I would say it is very much biological, and the most current research suggests that it is genetic.

00:12:08.340 Okay.

00:12:08.460 So it has to do with hormonal exposure in the womb, and so it isn't a choice.

00:12:13.300 I do think, though, even if being gay were a choice, really it should be someone's, if that's their decision, then, I mean, it's known.

00:12:19.360 Right.

00:12:19.740 Who cares?

00:12:20.040 I don't care.

00:12:20.640 Yeah.

00:12:20.840 I don't care.

00:12:21.640 Yeah.

00:12:21.840 But in this case, it is very much, you know, whether you attract it to men or women is very much determined before you're born.

00:12:28.280 Pedophilia?

00:12:28.600 It's similar, which will upset a lot of people to say that, but it is biological research I've worked on.

00:12:34.880 We've shown that the brains of pedophilic men are wired differently from non-pedophilic men.

00:12:40.260 So, again, this is not to say, I have to really clarify, this is not the same as someone being gay, because previously there was, you know, people think that there's some sort of correlation there.

00:12:48.060 But it does tell us something, if we want to protect children and make society safer, if there's always going to be a small, for whatever reason, there's a small proportion of men in our society who are sexually attracted to kids, and it's not something that can be changed, what does that say in terms of how we treat it?

00:13:06.520 So, from a research perspective, we would suggest, I mean, I don't work in research anymore, but from the research I've done, take a preventative approach, where if someone feels this way, they usually realize that about puberty, they feel this way, change society so that they can get help, so that they don't ever offend against kids.

00:13:23.620 Because if it's not something that can be changed, this is something they're going to be dealing with their whole lives, and it can be very difficult for an individual to never engage in any sex at all for their whole lives without any support.

00:13:36.100 So, people get very upset when I talk about this, because I think the idea that there are some adults in society who are sexually attracted to kids makes people understandably very uncomfortable, and I don't disagree with that discomfort.

00:13:49.480 But I think if we want to, again, protect kids, we have to take a scientific approach to things instead of one that's emotionally based.

00:14:10.740 My son recently was targeted online by...

00:14:14.620 I saw you speak about that, yeah.

00:14:16.020 And so, you know, we have to protect, but we do have to have compassion for people.

00:14:32.640 I just talked to a person yesterday who was put in juvenile detention, I think when he was 14, for, you know...

00:14:55.640 Abusing a child.

00:14:56.700 Abusing a child.

00:14:58.160 And he had been abused his whole childhood.

00:15:04.640 And he said to me, at that time, that was just normal.

00:15:08.860 That was normal for me.

00:15:12.380 And I think that's where I asked about...

00:15:15.720 Oh, I see.

00:15:16.380 The, you know, environmental, you know.

00:15:19.360 Is there any kind of environment, anything that backs up that that can cause any of the deviations in any place?

00:15:27.740 Right.

00:15:28.000 So I should differentiate between pedophilia and child abuse. 0.65

00:15:32.000 So pedophilia is the actual sexual attraction.

00:15:35.020 So some pedophiles will go on to abuse kids, but not all do.

00:15:39.020 So the abuse is an actual act, right?

00:15:41.500 It's the behavior.

00:15:42.060 And at the same time, some people who abuse children are not pedophilic.

00:15:47.500 So they will commit that abuse in that case with the individual that, you know, he may or may not actually be attracted to kids.

00:15:53.500 He may have been doing those behaviors just because that's what he thought was normal.

00:15:58.180 So there's a difference there.

00:15:59.580 And so when I've written about this previously, when I speak about it, my emphasis is on the pedophiles who do not offend.

00:16:04.420 Because the ones who do, usually they are antisocial.

00:16:08.380 Because the ones who don't offend, they know it's unethical.

00:16:11.460 Well, they don't want to hurt kids. 0.56

00:16:13.520 They will go through life.

00:16:15.420 You know, they won't look at child pornography.

00:16:16.720 They will say, I'm never going to harm a child.

00:16:18.860 So the ones who choose to, they know that there's a line there that they're crossing.

00:16:22.920 And so in that case, there may be factors in their lives that have led them to be more of the type of person to not care about other people.

00:16:30.640 But also, you know, it's a common narrative that's used among sexual abusers to say, I was abused.

00:16:37.280 Not to say necessarily of the individual you've spoken to, but they know that it will gain them sympathy.

00:16:41.720 So sometimes they will say that just because they know people will feel sorry for them.

00:16:46.260 So you're making the case, I guess, that pedophiliacs who are actually engaging in it, it's almost like rape. 0.75

00:17:03.640 It's not about sex. 0.90

00:17:05.220 It's about power.

00:17:06.360 No, no.

00:17:08.120 And rape is not about power either. 1.00

00:17:10.560 Okay.

00:17:11.380 That's a very common misnomer.

00:17:13.800 That's something that some feminists will claim. 1.00

00:17:17.180 They'll say that sexual assault and harassment are about power or about masculinity.

00:17:21.880 And it's not.

00:17:23.760 What is it about?

00:17:24.980 For some people, it's a sexual preference.

00:17:27.060 Again, it comes down to paraphilias. 0.97

00:17:28.580 So for some people, they actually have a sexual preference for rape, which is quite scary. 0.97

00:17:34.560 Yeah.

00:17:35.620 Because, I mean, you look around, there are tons of men who are in positions of power.

00:17:38.840 They don't do those types of things.

00:17:40.940 Or it's anti-sociality.

00:17:42.220 So it's, again, a subset of individuals who don't care about the well-being of others.

00:17:46.920 And so they'll do whatever they want.

00:17:48.460 But this is not indicative of most men.

00:17:52.380 So where do these things come from? 0.82

00:17:55.220 Where does your desire that you just enjoy rape, where does that come from?

00:18:06.200 There are likely differences in the brain. 0.62

00:18:08.060 We don't yet know.

00:18:09.300 Although research I've worked on has shown, like I mentioned, that paraphilias are biological.

00:18:13.920 So because it's so difficult to get funding for sex research, and especially for paraphilias,

00:18:19.560 even though there is such an application for public policy and safety, it's so difficult

00:18:25.400 for researchers to get money to do this work.

00:18:28.460 So pedophilia is one area that does tend to get funded because it is so important.

00:18:33.680 But I think outside of that, because we also have this narrative that rape is about power 0.79

00:18:37.500 when it's not, I mean, I think this is what the public has been fed.

00:18:42.000 This is what they believe.

00:18:42.880 So if you get an application to fund a study looking at biological reasons, they'll say,

00:18:47.800 why would we do that?

00:18:48.580 We know it's about power.

00:18:49.800 We know it's about power.

00:18:50.920 Yeah.

00:18:54.500 So if you have, if you could have the money to do the research, do you look to fix these

00:19:02.760 abnormalities?

00:19:04.500 I would say so if they're harming people, definitely.

00:19:07.640 Some people who are paraphilic won't act on their desires, but they'll struggle.

00:19:14.020 I think it depends on, can you, can you enjoy what you like sexually without hurting another

00:19:19.180 person?

00:19:19.720 That's where my line is.

00:19:20.860 I think people are free to do whatever they want in the bedroom so long as they're not

00:19:24.600 hurting anybody.

00:19:25.360 Right.

00:19:25.460 Um, and so it's when it causes harm to someone else that it becomes a problem.

00:19:33.020 Let's go to, um, transgender, gender fluidity. 0.94

00:19:37.060 Sure.

00:19:38.200 Gender fluidity exists. 1.00

00:19:40.040 No, I understand what people are saying when they talk about gender being fluid in that.

00:19:45.320 I don't think anybody feels a hundred percent male or female all of the time.

00:19:52.120 So I look at someone like you, I'll make some assumptions that you probably are pretty male

00:19:55.980 typical, but I'm sure there are some things about you that are maybe considered female 1.00

00:19:59.540 typical, but does that mean you're a woman or does that mean that you're a mix of male 0.51

00:20:03.500 and female? 0.98

00:20:04.220 I actually am probably much more female typical.

00:20:07.940 I mean, I, Broadway shows, uh, art, I'm a painter, I interior design.

00:20:14.900 I mean, I am, all my guy friends make fun of me all the time, but I've never felt like

00:20:21.200 a woman.

00:20:22.140 Right.

00:20:23.120 But nowadays people would look at those interests that you have and say, maybe you are a woman

00:20:26.800 or maybe you're both.

00:20:28.280 And I would look back and say, no, I'm, I'm not.

00:20:30.680 I don't, I, I, I, I, why, I mean, we, we've come from a place to where we were understanding

00:20:42.060 the differences and trying to come together with, you know, men are from Mars, women are 0.71

00:20:47.160 from Venus.

00:20:47.720 We think differently.

00:20:49.160 We are different.

00:20:50.420 Are you married?

00:20:51.600 No.

00:20:52.000 Okay.

00:20:53.300 Believe me.

00:20:54.500 I believe you.

00:20:55.380 We are different.

00:20:57.180 Why is that a bad thing to society now and to apparent science?

00:21:04.940 Because I think there's a false notion that if women are different from men, that means,

00:21:09.700 that upholds the idea that we're inferior.

00:21:11.920 So in order for us to be equal, we have to be the same as men, which I disagree with.

00:21:17.200 I mean, I don't understand.

00:21:22.520 You take this to the nth degree.

00:21:24.660 We don't survive without each other.

00:21:28.900 You know, we don't survive with, if conservatives are bean counters and liberals are artists,

00:21:36.900 well, we need somebody running the front box office and we need somebody on stage.

00:21:41.340 We need each other.

00:21:42.920 Women and men, we need each other. 0.99

00:21:45.060 I don't think, I mean, I'm, I'm a different man because of my wife.

00:21:50.040 She's, I think, a different woman because of me.

00:21:55.040 Where is, where is any voice that is saying, it's good to be different?

00:22:02.500 Uh, well, there are some, I would call myself a liberal still, even though I disagree with a lot of what's going on the left.

00:22:09.100 There are some of us who will say, yeah, there's nothing wrong with admitting, not even admitting,

00:22:14.200 saying that men and women are different.

00:22:15.620 And that is what the scientific research shows.

00:22:17.560 And it's extremely naive to try and say that those differences don't exist.

00:22:23.060 Right.

00:22:23.100 Um, I'm hoping that this movement, this push is going to end because it's, it's ridiculous and it's a waste of resources and it doesn't help us understand each other any better.

00:22:32.840 We're, we're tearing each other apart and we're, I mean, when we can't use facts and empirical data and, and science, if we can't use the enlightenment, the tools that we gained in the enlightenment, I don't, I don't know what we, uh, what we have.

00:22:49.420 Are the scientists that are shouting people down, are they, are they serious or is this a political movement or do they really believe this?

00:23:01.700 The activists who are shouting down the researchers?

00:23:04.980 Yeah.

00:23:05.600 And the, and the researchers who would shout you down.

00:23:08.600 Oh, I see what you mean.

00:23:10.160 Uh, I think there are a number of different factors at play.

00:23:13.980 I think for the researchers, because there are some studies that are coming up now that show that, oh, there are no differences in the brain between men and women.

00:23:22.500 And those studies are ideologically motivated without question, because within the field, there's definitely consensus.

00:23:28.840 And there was one study that came out a couple of years ago that suggested that male and female brains exist along a mosaic.

00:23:34.040 Um, but then another group of my colleagues analyzed the exact same brain data from the study and found that you could in fact tell the difference between male and female brains.

00:23:42.280 But the thing is the public didn't hear about that study.

00:23:44.580 So all they heard, I mean, when that first mosaic study came out, it was everywhere.

00:23:48.660 And so now people walk around.

00:23:50.140 I saw people come up to me today who say, what is the truth?

00:23:53.800 Are men and women different in the brain? 0.98

00:23:56.500 Is it socially constructed or is it biological?

00:23:58.560 So I think on some level, researchers think that what they're doing is honorable when they publish studies like this.

00:24:05.660 They think it's helping women. 0.97

00:24:07.640 And then I think with...

00:24:09.400 Helping women by, by cooking the books or helping women because they believe this is actual legitimate science? 0.82

00:24:18.920 I don't know that I want to say they're cooking the books, but yeah.

00:24:21.560 Yeah.

00:24:22.560 I mean, you can't read the, you cannot read the literature and actually come away thinking there are no differences between men and women biologically in the brain.

00:24:31.500 You just can't.

00:24:33.040 So...

00:24:33.380 Where are the differences?

00:24:34.560 Uh, there are a number of, of different.

00:24:36.240 So one, one brain in the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, which is a big, huge part.

00:24:43.140 Well, actually, it's not a big, huge, big, huge name for a tiny part of the brain.

00:24:46.360 It's about the size of a grain of sand.

00:24:48.720 Consistently larger in men than women.

00:24:50.760 And it's responsible for regulating sexual behavior.

00:24:54.920 So, um, these studies will go and they'll show, they'll point to all these different parts of the brain and say, see, there are no differences.

00:25:02.500 There are no differences.

00:25:03.060 And I think what they're trying to do, and I do understand this on some level, that previously, these ideas have been used to denigrate women.

00:25:13.740 They have been used in a way to hold women back, say women are not as competent. 1.00

00:25:18.220 But I think we can say, you know, like I said, there are these differences.

00:25:22.420 We don't have to pretend they don't exist for women to be equal. 1.00

00:25:25.060 And doesn't it make sense through just the evolutionary process, just, just animals, and it makes sense that men, uh, have less regulation on their, on their drive to procreate as much as they can and, and being very visual.

00:25:47.040 Right.

00:25:47.320 And women not being more selective, looking for the, the, the male that is, uh, virile and also, um, strong going to provide.

00:26:02.480 Yeah, exactly.

00:26:02.980 A good caretaker.

00:26:03.860 Right.

00:26:04.200 I mean, all of that makes sense in the animal kingdom.

00:26:08.000 Why, why is it suddenly different for us?

00:26:10.760 Because I think people, some of the people who deny evolution and deny biology don't actually understand it.

00:26:18.600 And going back to your previous question, I think at what I see now in university is this is what students are being taught.

00:26:24.260 So they don't know any different because they would rightfully think, why would my professor lie to me?

00:26:30.340 So if you go through a full three or four year degree and you're, this is what you're constantly being taught, you would think this must be the truth because why would, why would you be taught otherwise?

00:26:39.780 So going back to, uh, what you're saying with differences between men and women in the, uh, in terms of evolution, I see this.

00:26:47.980 It's really interesting because I have people reach out to me all the time from my writing and when they see me do appearances and they ask me, especially young women will say, I'm really confused because I'm being told that I should be like the guys and that I should like casual sex or that, uh, you know, just, just these feminist lies about dating and romance.

00:27:08.800 And, and, and sex.

00:27:10.260 And I really feel for them because I think at the core of feminism did have some good points, but it's to the point now where it really is leading young women astray and it's actually making life more difficult for them.

00:27:21.520 I have to tell you, I think, you know, you look at Harvey Weinstein, you look at any predator who is not under control.

00:27:32.780 I don't care, male or female, get them. 1.00

00:27:37.160 Let's, let's listen to the evidence.

00:27:41.080 Let's put them through the system and make sure that that stops.

00:27:45.040 We need to do that.

00:27:46.060 We've gotten to a place now to where it feels almost like a witch hunt.

00:27:50.920 You don't even, it's now it's not believe the accuser or take the accuser seriously.

00:27:56.960 It is believe the survivor, which flips everything upside down.

00:28:01.700 It not only hurts men, but it makes women into this constant victim all the time. 1.00

00:28:13.400 And I can't imagine being a young girl being told, you know, oh my gosh, men are everywhere.

00:28:23.800 It's a rape culture. 1.00

00:28:24.920 They're going to get you.

00:28:26.200 My gosh, what is it like to be a young woman?

00:28:29.360 It's a lot of paranoia and, and women are being told that they're helpless and that this is inevitable. 0.64

00:28:35.460 So I, again, with me too, I've written about me too.

00:28:38.220 And I do think at the core, it had some good points.

00:28:41.260 I don't agree, obviously with sexual assault or sexual harassment.

00:28:43.940 I do think women have been, and men have been dealing with this for too long and it hasn't been taken seriously,

00:28:48.600 but it's gone so far now in the opposite direction where it isn't helping women.

00:28:52.840 And I've written about also this idea of sexism in STEM,

00:28:56.900 which kind of goes back to the biological differences idea that women are being told now, 0.94

00:29:02.580 if you want to go into the sciences, you're going to experience sexism. 0.67

00:29:06.340 It's going to be horrendous.

00:29:07.840 You're going to be traumatized.

00:29:09.220 And I think it actually dissuades women from doing it, 1.00

00:29:11.920 or they are just become so afraid that they're going to have a horrible experience

00:29:15.680 that even those who would want to might be reluctant to do so.

00:29:19.460 So, you know, the difference I've written before about the difference in terms of what men and women find interesting

00:29:23.960 is that women inherently on average are probably not as interested in the sciences as men,

00:29:29.940 but that's not due to sexism.

00:29:32.040 And I mean, I did my PhD in a scientific field.

00:29:35.540 I experienced sexism, but if you really want to succeed, you can do it.

00:29:39.380 And I think this narrative of that sexism is everywhere, that there are male predators everywhere.

00:29:46.300 Women are not being told, stand up for yourself. 0.99

00:29:48.660 I mean, obviously in situations where it's coercive, sometimes there is only so much a person can do,

00:29:53.160 but that's not, I don't feel it's empowering to women to tell them

00:29:58.020 that this is something that's inevitable and men are terrible,

00:30:01.940 because it also makes men and women, again, be more at odds.

00:30:06.400 It doesn't help us.

00:30:07.100 No means no is empowering.

00:30:10.100 Yeah.

00:30:10.620 Yeah.

00:30:10.900 Even that, just say no.

00:30:13.160 No, say no and don't accept that.

00:30:16.140 That's not normal and that's not your fault.

00:30:18.640 So if it happens to you, go tell somebody, let's stop it from happening again.

00:30:24.300 Yeah.

00:30:25.120 That's empowering.

00:30:26.740 But telling people that we live in a rape culture

00:30:30.600 and that our culture is endorsing and accepting rape,

00:30:36.640 I don't even begin to understand how anybody, especially a feminist, thinks that's empowering. 1.00

00:30:44.200 Right.

00:30:44.680 And also that male sexuality is being pathologized too.

00:30:49.040 So men are basically told that they need to behave like women when it comes to their sex lives,

00:30:53.500 I guess, in order to not be misogynistic or sexist or to have toxic masculinity.

00:30:58.320 And again, I don't think that's helpful because men are then being shamed for no reason.

00:31:04.360 And the guys I talk to who are decent men, they do feel ashamed of having a sex drive

00:31:10.040 or being more, I guess, interested in sex than some of their female partners.

00:31:14.380 And I don't think the solution in either direction is to say one has to be more like the other.

00:31:19.580 What do you think are the long-term effects of what we're going through right now?

00:31:47.760 Men, you know, being masculated, told to be more like women.

00:31:57.560 A, is that what women want? 1.00

00:32:01.480 No.

00:32:02.140 Right?

00:32:02.500 No.

00:32:03.480 You just, you watch movies and you're like, that's a man.

00:32:08.120 And that's the one that the women usually are like, oh my gosh, he is. 0.98

00:32:12.920 Right?

00:32:13.400 Right.

00:32:13.760 Um, so that's not what women want. 1.00

00:32:16.720 No, women are being told, I think that's what they should want. 1.00

00:32:19.540 But if that, that regarding whether that's actually what they want, I don't think so.

00:32:23.880 So what is the long-term effect here of take the good part and separate it from me too?

00:32:31.380 Okay.

00:32:32.040 Hopefully there will be a long-term effect of we don't accept this as a society.

00:32:37.200 Right?

00:32:37.640 Now, look at the rest of it that's happening where men are bad, women are looking for this,

00:32:46.080 men should behave this way, women are victims. 1.00

00:32:49.500 What is the long-term effect, do you think?

00:32:52.520 Any idea?

00:32:54.340 I've thought about that.

00:32:55.520 Yeah, I think taking the positive things aside, I mean, we, I mean, we can look at what happened

00:33:04.680 with Brett Kavanaugh and how this whole narrative has unfolded.

00:33:09.200 And I, I don't think that story has done anything to really help women or people who have undergone

00:33:17.000 sexual assault.

00:33:18.280 It's hurt.

00:33:19.120 It's hurt them.

00:33:20.280 It's hurt.

00:33:20.760 And it's going to make, well, I see both sides.

00:33:23.940 I could see for some women and young girls who will say, this is what I need to do to

00:33:30.000 be honorable as a woman.

00:33:32.600 Or this is, I feel like sexual assault has almost been glamorized that as a woman, if you

00:33:38.900 are strong and you're independent and you're autonomous, that this is what you do.

00:33:43.160 You undergo something like this and call out your so-called abuser.

00:33:48.220 I mean, I don't want to comment on Dr. Ford's experience because I don't know.

00:33:52.660 I don't know.

00:33:53.100 I don't want to judge.

00:33:53.720 I think my stance on this is, I don't know.

00:33:58.680 I'm not God.

00:33:59.500 I have no idea.

00:34:00.560 There's no evidence here.

00:34:03.220 There is some evidence for him on his side, but I don't know.

00:34:09.020 She could be telling the truth.

00:34:10.900 He could be lying.

00:34:12.180 He could be telling the truth.

00:34:13.300 I think most people are honest and fair and they don't want to get involved in this.

00:34:19.620 It's he said, she said.

00:34:21.160 That's usually my approach is that I think you can have a sense, but I think unless you

00:34:25.700 know either of the individuals well, you really can't say.

00:34:29.360 I mean, you can watch the testimony.

00:34:30.500 You can come to some sort of opinion, but how can you ever really know?

00:34:33.900 How do you know?

00:34:34.680 And it's not even preponderance of evidence or, you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

00:34:39.940 No, it's, it's just, she said it, she must accept it.

00:34:45.160 It's ideological.

00:34:45.620 Or we must accept it.

00:34:46.980 Well, we wouldn't do that with him, nor should we do that with him.

00:34:52.300 So, so what does that set up for just relationships between men and women?

00:34:59.800 I just read an article today that said more executives who are men are now saying, I will

00:35:10.720 not go out.

00:35:12.060 Like I go out with the guys after work.

00:35:14.220 I do not want any kind of personal relationship with the women because I'm afraid they're going 1.00

00:35:20.380 to say this.

00:35:21.100 So we're separating ourselves and we're actually cutting women out. 0.99

00:35:25.340 Exactly.

00:35:26.120 Of opportunities.

00:35:26.980 Yeah.

00:35:28.520 And even in a dating context, I hear all the time, men are terrified now.

00:35:32.360 Some will be celibate because they are really afraid that this is going to happen to them.

00:35:36.000 Whether it is going to be a false accusation or something will happen in 10 years later,

00:35:40.460 who knows who's going to come out of the woodwork and say that you did something that they didn't

00:35:44.280 like.

00:35:44.860 And in the case where you're saying, you know, in the, in the business world, it does hurt

00:35:49.340 women because understandably men are going to be afraid.

00:35:53.200 They don't want something like this to happen to them.

00:35:54.920 Do you fear at all that it swings pendulum?

00:35:59.880 I mean, it's all pendulum that it swings so far back the other way that sexual assault

00:36:08.780 doesn't mean anything that you didn't say it all you want and nobody's going to listen

00:36:13.480 to you.

00:36:13.860 Yeah.

00:36:15.780 And I think it does victims a disservice also because it's conflated with so many things

00:36:20.360 now.

00:36:20.700 So you've rape on one side and then you have something like catcalling on the other side.

00:36:25.200 So when you look at rape culture, this is what they're referring to. 0.77

00:36:27.520 It's a so-called spectrum of sexual assault.

00:36:30.680 And I really don't think it's appropriate to say that someone like you, you see, I'm sure

00:36:37.040 you've read some of the pieces that would compare Bill Cosby to, uh, I'm trying to think

00:36:42.200 of someone who did something, obviously that was not Cosby like, but you can't, you can't

00:36:46.500 say that those are the same thing.

00:36:47.800 And to even suggest that gets you labeled as sexist and part of the problem.

00:36:54.680 So, but where, so where do people go?

00:36:58.100 Where, I mean, how does that, how does in the mind of educators, you were in academia,

00:37:05.360 how in the mind of academia that is teaching this stuff, how does that end?

00:37:11.260 I think women who don't agree with it have to say something because men can say,

00:37:18.040 what they think, but they are going to, no one's going to really take them as seriously.

00:37:22.660 If you are a woman and you say those things, people, I think are more likely to stop and

00:37:27.520 maybe listen and say, well, if there are women who feel this way, maybe we aren't being insensitive

00:37:32.200 by simply, uh, dismissing the, the pendulum going so far in that direction in favor of victims.

00:37:41.180 Let's say you have a 12 year old, 13 year old girl.

00:37:44.840 What do you say to them?

00:37:47.580 If you're a, you're a mom or you're just an expert, what do you tell them?

00:37:52.860 I would tell her it's okay to say no.

00:37:58.100 And if she feels uncomfortable to say so, and obviously it's not her fault if something happens

00:38:02.800 to her, but she can control a situation because now I think what girls are being told is you 1.00

00:38:10.020 should wait for the man to act appropriately.

00:38:14.080 So if he does something that you don't like, he should just know better.

00:38:18.160 So you'll call him out for it after the fact, but not preemptively.

00:38:23.540 And I think women should be, I think women should be definitely in control of their sexuality 1.00

00:38:28.120 and be autonomous.

00:38:28.860 And that extends also to being assertive in terms of what is and isn't okay.

00:38:35.040 Is it sexist for me to say that women make men a better man?

00:38:43.940 I don't think that's sexist, no, but I don't think I'm representative of most women on the

00:38:49.240 left.

00:38:50.060 Right.

00:38:50.760 But define liberal.

00:38:52.100 Um, well, I mean, I call myself a liberal because number one, I write about sex research 0.76

00:39:00.100 and that's a pretty left endeavor.

00:39:02.560 I would say, um, why, well, it's, that's a good question.

00:39:11.620 I think most people look at that and say, she's more likely to be a liberal than a conservative 0.97

00:39:15.800 based on that alone, because it is about being sex is progressive.

00:39:20.860 Isn't it talking about sex is pretty progressive.

00:39:23.800 Sex is human.

00:39:25.600 It is.

00:39:26.200 But do you think most people who are right-leaning would talk about sex as much as I do?

00:39:34.340 Um, yeah, I mean, I've been to churches, all kinds of different churches that talk about

00:39:39.420 it.

00:39:39.500 They just talk about it in a different way, but they, you know, um, but they would talk

00:39:46.140 about it.

00:39:46.640 I mean, I, I'm not, you know, I would think if you're a, I, I, if I was talking to somebody

00:39:54.540 before you sat down, your credential of playboy says liberal.

00:40:02.660 Yeah.

00:40:03.620 Okay.

00:40:04.620 You being, um, a scientist on sex does not say liberal to me. 0.76

00:40:11.220 The scientist playboy says liberal.

00:40:15.960 So, I mean, science is science to me, at least.

00:40:22.000 It's interesting to hear.

00:40:23.100 Because I think for some people, even science of sex will immediately go left-leaning.

00:40:29.560 Perhaps because of gender studies. 1.00

00:40:34.500 Which is really unfortunate because that's not what I do.

00:40:38.100 Yeah.

00:40:38.260 I mean, you know, you, you, you know, I, I think perhaps because it is something that

00:40:46.100 is new, um, that it kind of would be lumped into that.

00:40:52.580 And I don't know how credible that is.

00:40:54.600 I mean, if you're looking at the brain lighting up, you're showing, I was assuming you're showing

00:40:59.940 people images and you're seeing how it lights up.

00:41:02.280 Can you go through that?

00:41:03.320 Right.

00:41:03.600 So for my dissertation, I was using different types of brain imaging to look at the difference

00:41:09.380 between men who are paraphilic and those who are not.

00:41:12.220 And so one of the methods I used was functional MRI.

00:41:15.340 So as you mentioned, brain activation, looking at differences.

00:41:18.040 That's an fMRI, right?

00:41:18.960 FMRI, yes.

00:41:20.240 Um, and looking at differences in the brain and differences in terms of activation patterns

00:41:24.400 between men who were kinky and men who were not kinky.

00:41:28.520 And fMRIs, I mean, it's new, but it's legitimate.

00:41:33.760 Yeah.

00:41:34.220 Yeah, it is.

00:41:35.920 Well, I don't, so when you, but when you say liberal, are you a, because you're not a feminist. 1.00

00:41:45.600 No, I used to be a feminist. 1.00

00:41:47.180 I still think men and women should be equal, but I don't like that term anymore because

00:41:50.960 I feel it stands for things that say five years ago, if you were defending feminism,

00:41:56.320 you could legitimately say, no, feminism is not about hating men. 1.00

00:42:00.040 Feminism is not science denial, but now it is. 1.00

00:42:02.400 It is.

00:42:02.980 Yeah.

00:42:03.140 Um, so would you consider yourself a classic liberal?

00:42:08.200 You're just for, can we just all be cool with each other?

00:42:12.020 Yeah, I would say so.

00:42:13.180 I would say I've definitely moved more to the right in the last couple of years because

00:42:16.900 I see more and more that, uh, the left has gone off the rails.

00:42:23.600 The far left is starting to encompass more and more of what it means to be a liberal.

00:42:27.960 And I don't agree with that.

00:42:31.020 The far left is encompassing more what you think is a liberal.

00:42:36.240 I think so.

00:42:38.980 I'm hoping it's a face.

00:42:40.560 I'm thinking that they're embracing more of what it means to be a Stalinist. 1.00

00:42:44.500 Shout down, shut them up or beat them up or kill them. 1.00

00:42:49.860 Be violent. 1.00

00:42:50.640 Yeah.

00:42:50.880 I mean, that's, that's not, to me, that's not liberalism.

00:42:54.840 No, but they are the loudest.

00:42:57.440 And I think when people, it could just be, you know, natural flux of time and things kind

00:43:03.260 of wax and wane and come back and forth.

00:43:04.800 But in this current moment, uh, I've, yeah, it, it worries me.

00:43:10.980 And I, I don't really want to be associated with that.

00:43:13.640 And I think most reasonable liberals would agree with that.

00:43:17.860 The far left does not speak for us.

00:43:20.740 How come we're not hearing more of that?

00:43:23.060 It takes brave people like you and others to say that.

00:43:27.700 Why don't we hear that more?

00:43:29.400 Because it's easier not to say anything.

00:43:31.840 And because if you stay quiet, you, or if you say the right thing, you get more social

00:43:38.320 points for that.

00:43:39.400 I mean, when you do speak out, as I'm sure, you know, you pay a price, right?

00:43:43.900 And who wants to pay that price?

00:43:45.600 Is that price worth what you get from saying what you say?

00:43:51.260 I would say it is because I live, I love my life.

00:43:54.680 I can say whatever I want and I can sleep well at night.

00:43:57.920 And I never have to worry that people don't know who I am or that people will turn on

00:44:03.580 me when they find out who I am.

00:44:05.000 Everybody in my life knows what I think about whatever, and they don't necessarily agree

00:44:09.180 with me, but it's very freeing.

00:44:13.540 It is.

00:44:15.440 You, however, were in academia and you thought originally, maybe, maybe I should wait until

00:44:22.120 tenure, but tenure in this situation, tenure doesn't even count anymore.

00:44:26.780 It's not going to save your job.

00:44:27.940 No, it doesn't.

00:44:28.900 And so that's the other part of it.

00:44:30.440 If your job is dependent on you playing along, I can understand why that's more of an incentive

00:44:37.440 to stay quiet.

00:44:38.440 But I think it's my personality that I just am not willing to do that.

00:44:42.240 I wouldn't be happy.

00:44:43.000 It's sad to me because I think at least I always had the image of scientists as the brave ones

00:45:05.480 going in and questioning everything.

00:45:08.060 And you see now science going off the rails and you see them denying things that are empirically

00:45:18.460 true.

00:45:19.180 And it's because of peer pressure or status or job, and it's almost as if they have forgotten

00:45:31.360 Galileo and the Catholic Church.

00:45:33.660 And it's lucrative for some people because when you say things the public likes, who's

00:45:42.460 not going to be happy with you?

00:45:43.780 You'll get more money.

00:45:44.980 You'll get more attention.

00:45:46.820 So...

00:45:47.140 You can't sleep at night.

00:45:48.220 You don't like yourself.

00:45:49.740 You're lying to yourself.

00:45:51.300 You have to look at your children and realize that the world you're creating is a lie.

00:45:56.340 Do you think everyone has that insight, though?

00:46:01.700 I'm an optimistic catastrophe.

00:46:04.880 I am always...

00:46:06.380 I always feel...

00:46:07.720 You don't want to be on the Titanic with me on the way to the iceberg because I've already

00:46:13.760 counted the lifeboats.

00:46:15.860 But once we hit the iceberg, I'm pretty optimistic.

00:46:18.680 I want to believe that most people have that decency in them, but I think this is why the

00:46:31.520 Me Too movement is actually strong in some ways and so powerful, because nobody wants 0.97

00:46:37.220 to believe that somebody is going to stand up and say, he was a gang rapist.

00:46:43.100 Nobody wants to believe...

00:46:44.120 Who would do that?

00:46:46.720 But people do.

00:46:47.740 We see people do.

00:46:49.940 Yeah.

00:46:50.460 And I think a lot of these movements get the push that they do because, like you're saying,

00:46:58.500 people are empathic.

00:46:59.800 And I think that's a good thing.

00:47:01.380 People want to believe they're doing the right thing.

00:47:03.900 But in a lot of cases, it's misguided.

00:47:06.280 And I think all of that effort could be going towards finding a proper solution that would

00:47:13.080 actually be effective instead of these movements that seem to be, well, they sound nice at the

00:47:20.220 end of the day.

00:47:20.720 They sound nice, but they don't really achieve anything.

00:47:22.540 How do we, as a culture, survive with academia going so strongly in this direction, post-modernism,

00:47:33.700 being weaponized as social justice, and Silicon Valley being as off the rails as they are?

00:47:44.280 I mean, James DeMorris, I don't understand what he said that was so wrong.

00:47:49.820 I mean, I know women and I know men, and I've rarely, I have, but I've rarely met the woman 0.98

00:47:56.860 who's the tech freak, who's like, the latest gadget's out.

00:48:00.780 Every guy I know is a gadget freak.

00:48:04.440 That only makes sense.

00:48:07.300 And yet, he can't live.

00:48:10.160 He can't work.

00:48:12.960 What chance do we have with academia and high-tech Silicon Valley moving and pushing in this direction?

00:48:27.800 Do we win?

00:48:30.080 Do we, does, does science, truth, justice, do those things remain?

00:48:41.580 Not at the rate that we're going at or the direction we're heading in.

00:48:45.440 I am optimistic in the long run because I do think academia will find its way because I do believe

00:48:51.320 the truth always comes out.

00:48:52.760 You can try to suppress it.

00:48:54.280 You can try to derail it.

00:48:55.700 But at the end of the day, people will see through it.

00:48:58.120 So, with these disciplines that are really overtaking the ivory tower, I don't see them

00:49:07.360 eventually being winning.

00:49:12.640 I hate to use the term winning because I don't think it should be about winning, but I don't

00:49:15.900 see them lasting because people will eventually figure out none of this actually makes sense.

00:49:20.700 Do you think this generation instinctively knows that, but nobody's telling them the truth

00:49:28.360 and nobody is doing it in a calm and rational way?

00:49:32.400 We're just screaming at each other and nobody's going to listen to somebody screaming?

00:49:36.120 It's like, it's like both the left and the right are the Westboro Baptist Church. 0.79

00:49:40.760 You know, God hates you. 0.94

00:49:42.560 No, God hates you.

00:49:43.700 Nobody's going to change their mind on that.

00:49:46.200 I would like to think they do.

00:49:48.460 Sometimes I worry because I think they genuinely believe what they're being told.

00:49:53.980 But I think some are more savvy and they recognize that these are just nice things to say.

00:49:58.320 So hopefully in the end, I guess the benefits of doing that are going to wear out and people

00:50:03.940 will say, you know what, let's just be honest about things.

00:50:06.000 Um, but yeah, I mean, I look at James Damore and I wrote that column for the Globe and Mail

00:50:10.700 defending his memo last year and I could not believe how he was treated.

00:50:16.300 I couldn't believe that even now left-leaning media still refuse to get his story right.

00:50:22.140 And it's not that they don't understand the science.

00:50:24.180 It's that they're intentional and intentionally, um, smearing him, which I think is the worst thing.

00:50:30.320 You're a journalist.

00:50:31.220 You went from academia to journalism.

00:50:35.920 What's wrong with you?

00:50:37.680 It's a good question.

00:50:38.900 What is wrong with you?

00:50:41.400 Why did you do that?

00:50:43.280 Uh, in the last few years of my PhD, I noticed this change that we were talking about and

00:50:48.160 specifically within the, the issue of gender dysphoric kids, how there was this one narrative

00:50:54.600 being promoted in the media and that wasn't speaking to the science.

00:50:58.120 So the idea that any child that says they're born in the wrong body, um, should be affirmed 1.00

00:51:04.140 and should be encouraged, not encouraged maybe, but supported in transitioning to the opposite

00:51:08.500 sex, if that's what they decide.

00:51:10.100 And sometimes the, some of the pieces I was reading, these kids are as young as age three.

00:51:13.920 So I felt it was important to write something that spoke to the science and the science actually

00:51:19.400 shows consistently that the vast majority of these children will outgrow their feelings of

00:51:24.660 gender dysphoria. 0.93

00:51:25.300 They're more likely to grow up to be gay.

00:51:27.820 So this is not to say, I think adults should be free to do what they want.

00:51:32.200 And if an adult wants to transition, that's their benefit. 0.78

00:51:34.720 Some research has shown it can be beneficial for some transgender adults, but in terms of

00:51:38.880 kids, it's just not appropriate.

00:51:40.620 So I wrote this piece, um, speaking to the science, knowing that people would get very upset,

00:51:47.480 that the activists would be enraged.

00:51:49.680 Um, and I thought about it for about six months, asking myself, is this something you really

00:51:53.800 want to do?

00:51:54.960 And I spoke to many of my colleagues and mentors and they, they were very supportive.

00:51:59.420 I have to, I'm very grateful for that because I think they did help to shape me in terms of

00:52:03.580 who I was as a research scientist and also as a journalist now.

00:52:06.620 But they did, I would say, should I wait until I have tenure to put this out?

00:52:11.680 And they said, even nowadays, it's tenure is not going to protect you.

00:52:16.400 So that kind of sealed it for me in terms of, I thought, well, why am I going to stay in

00:52:20.640 an environment where I can't speak my mind?

00:52:23.380 I can't pursue interesting research questions.

00:52:25.780 And these are children.

00:52:27.500 These are, their lives are being affected by these decisions.

00:52:29.920 So that piece went out and I made the decision to leave academia after the, and if you, hopefully

00:52:38.060 you'll remember his name, the guy who really kind of started the gender fluidity thing.

00:52:46.140 Um, I think he was, may have been Canadian, uh, uh, but he was, um, a psychiatrist who there

00:52:55.740 was a screw up there, two twin boys.

00:52:58.900 Oh, John Money.

00:53:00.520 Yeah.

00:53:01.200 And, and one in, I think circumcision loss, right.

00:53:06.300 That is one of the most horrific stories I have ever heard.

00:53:11.280 Can you, can you tell the story a little bit?

00:53:13.900 Do you remember it enough?

00:53:14.720 Right.

00:53:15.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:53:15.180 So this, um, they're twin boys and one of them, his penis, I believe was, um, horribly damaged 0.98

00:53:23.360 from a botched circumcision. 0.90

00:53:25.020 So I forget the name, his name when he was born, but he ended up taking on the name David

00:53:28.520 Reimer when he was older.

00:53:29.580 So, uh, his doctor decided let's raise him as a girl instead, but his entire life, he

00:53:35.440 felt more like a boy.

00:53:36.600 And then he eventually decided to take on a male gender identity later on in life.

00:53:40.760 And then he ended up ending his life.

00:53:42.880 And it's from what I understand, the parents eventually took him away from this doctor,

00:53:48.880 but they were going on a regular basis.

00:53:51.080 And the doctor was having his brother mount him.

00:53:55.160 Uh, and it, I mean.

00:53:57.600 Yeah.

00:53:57.820 It's awful.

00:53:58.240 It's awful.

00:53:59.620 It's awful.

00:54:01.900 And that's the origins of, Hey, we can, you know, society.

00:54:09.580 You learn gender.

00:54:10.780 You learn gender.

00:54:11.860 How is this?

00:54:14.120 Not just this one thing, not just discredit all of that.

00:54:19.820 Because the people who are invested in this narrative, they don't care about facts and

00:54:26.280 they don't care about what the legitimate science shows.

00:54:29.940 They care about their agenda and they.

00:54:32.260 To what end?

00:54:36.180 I don't think there is a limit.

00:54:38.760 I think they, until we all bow down to it.

00:54:41.480 I mean, the, the scientific research is overwhelmingly in favor of gender being biological and binary,

00:54:52.280 but they just dismiss the whole thing because it's, it's, that's the only way that they can

00:54:58.360 refute it by just ignoring it.

00:55:03.040 I, I, I've tried to swear off the use of the word evil, but on some of these things, it

00:55:10.400 just seems evil.

00:55:12.640 If you're knowingly engaging in this, which is so destructive to people, I don't know

00:55:20.900 how else to describe it.

00:55:23.500 Speaking of that, Catholic church.

00:55:29.500 Can you, can you help me?

00:55:31.580 And again, I, I know who you hang out with and I know you're around a bunch of big, really

00:55:36.360 big eggheads, but excuse a, a, a simple question in reading about what they have uncovered.

00:55:46.140 They have uncovered some priests that were, um, taking teenage girls and grooming them and

00:55:55.100 then passing them around.

00:55:56.640 Okay. 0.62

00:55:58.240 Then you had other priests who were abusing little children.

00:56:02.440 Some of them boys, some of them girls. 0.59

00:56:05.600 Then you had other priests that were just targeting boys.

00:56:11.020 That's not all pedophilia, is it?

00:56:14.400 It's hard to say without doing an actual assessment on each of these individuals, because they could

00:56:20.380 be doing the awful things that they do for a number of different reasons.

00:56:23.760 But if you see a man consistently abusing kids and in the case of the church, it being, I

00:56:32.660 believe something like 40, and that's in Pennsylvania in particular, 40 years and across all of them,

00:56:37.920 thousands of victims speaks to pedophilia because why would it be so consistently child victims

00:56:44.780 then?

00:56:45.140 And why would, um, like these men would be passed around to different churches?

00:56:52.200 Um, so the, the consistency of it speaks to it being more pedophilia.

00:57:00.520 Is there, I hear this from people.

00:57:04.920 No, it is not the culture.

00:57:09.180 I, I know that there is abuse in every church and every organization around kids.

00:57:15.220 It happens.

00:57:16.580 But is there anything in the culture that would, I mean, you're a priest, you cannot marry.

00:57:25.380 Is that, uh, a, a, an attraction, um, historically to people who were perhaps, uh, had, uh, you know,

00:57:40.480 different, um, tastes and, and we're trying maybe even to get away from it.

00:57:47.520 Maybe God will save me from this.

00:57:49.760 And it's just been institutionalized.

00:57:51.940 Yeah, I, I mean, I have heard that with some of the men that I worked with previously in

00:57:56.820 research where they were hoping that it would cure them.

00:58:00.640 Or you, you have to think if someone is willing to be celibate, why is that?

00:58:04.780 I mean, not that, not that that's not a something to aspire to for some people.

00:58:09.780 Yeah.

00:58:10.220 But you have to wonder why would some people be willing to do that?

00:58:14.780 And I think also for some of these men, the more antisocial ones, as I mentioned earlier,

00:58:19.220 they know they're going to have access to kids.

00:58:21.540 And be unsupervised and that families are going to, parents are going to trust them.

00:58:27.140 And so they see it as an opportunity, but you see that similarly with sports coaches.

00:58:31.180 You see that with teachers also.

00:58:33.460 Um, but for these men, they're looking for some of them, they're looking for opportunities

00:58:37.480 to be, have access to victims.

00:58:39.820 Let me, um, let me take you to AI.

00:58:50.500 Okay.

00:58:52.240 So I heard an interview with you and I don't remember who you were talking to, but you were

00:58:56.300 talking about the sex robots.

00:58:58.420 Yes.

00:58:59.040 I think one was just turned around in Canada, wasn't it? 0.97

00:59:01.460 Um, there was a sex doll. 0.97

00:59:04.180 Yeah. 0.94

00:59:04.600 A child doll.

00:59:05.280 A child doll.

00:59:05.840 Yeah.

00:59:06.900 And, um, and you said something that I think is worth exploring and is very interesting.

00:59:14.320 Um, you said, can these childlike AI robots that are just really not really even AI at this

00:59:26.460 point, um, can they be helpful to, um, people who are attracted to children that they get

00:59:38.460 that out and I thought it was an interesting, um, discussion to be able to, to go back and

00:59:47.300 forth on, well, does that reinforce it and do you get bored with that and then you want

00:59:54.160 a child, a real child or what?

00:59:57.480 Can you, can you just lay the case out here?

01:00:00.100 Sure.

01:00:00.560 So I'm all about the data and going in the direction policy, I believe should follow what

01:00:05.180 the data say.

01:00:05.940 We don't have those data yet to know whether child sex dolls will be beneficial, but I

01:00:11.540 do think it's important for the public to be open-minded to that research being conducted

01:00:16.480 if it's done in a way that is obviously supervised and involves experts who know what they're

01:00:22.200 doing.

01:00:22.920 So I understand why.

01:00:23.800 Not the sex doll industry.

01:00:25.040 No.

01:00:25.340 Actual science.

01:00:26.340 Yeah.

01:00:26.780 Yeah.

01:00:26.980 And I can understand why it makes people uncomfortable.

01:00:29.020 I mean, even adult sex robots, as you mentioned, the technology is not anywhere near, uh,

01:00:34.860 being sufficient for these robots to have their own life and, you know, move around even

01:00:42.240 some of them move a little bit, but barely, but in the case of, of the child dolls, if

01:00:49.540 it's something that could help these men avoid abusing real life children, then I think it's

01:00:55.100 something we should consider.

01:00:56.860 Um, the research suggests that having a proxy.

01:01:00.540 So say, um, an outlet where they could get out their proclivities without acting on kids

01:01:07.920 is beneficial, that it's not something that's going to make them want to move on.

01:01:12.420 Is it solid?

01:01:13.580 It is, but again, it depends on the individual because that's not, I mean, with research,

01:01:18.980 it's averages.

01:01:19.740 So there, there are always cases that don't fit into that.

01:01:22.320 Can you, with an fMRI, know the difference?

01:01:25.860 Not yet.

01:01:27.080 Not yet.

01:01:27.800 Do you think that's on the horizon?

01:01:28.920 Um, I hope so, because I think that would be amazing technology to have.

01:01:35.220 Does it kind of scare you too?

01:01:37.700 Not really, because I, I find those kinds of changes exciting because I guess I have,

01:01:45.060 I have faith that the people who are running those studies and implementing the technology,

01:01:50.260 maybe I'm an optimist like you in that way.

01:01:51.940 I just believe that they, they're not going to do it.

01:01:55.760 Weren't you just telling me that you're seeing studies?

01:02:01.420 But those are not real scientists.

01:02:03.380 Those are ideologues.

01:02:05.140 How do you tell the difference between the two?

01:02:07.320 I'm, I guess I'm looking to the colleagues I know who are in this field who work with

01:02:11.300 sex offenders.

01:02:11.860 That's the difference.

01:02:12.840 Okay.

01:02:13.460 Yeah.

01:02:13.700 Um, but I mean, I do, I listened to the interview you did recently about what Google's doing

01:02:19.520 with China.

01:02:19.980 So that does worry me a bit.

01:02:22.040 You, you don't know how the technology is going to be used.

01:02:24.180 And I guess I choose to be optimistic until we have reasons to feel otherwise.

01:02:30.660 I think a lot of the fear people have, the media has sparked a lot of, um, uh, hysteria

01:02:37.940 around sex robots.

01:02:39.840 Last summer, I think they came, there was an, uh, an institute that came out with a report

01:02:44.420 saying that we should all be terrified of this technology.

01:02:46.800 And I don't think we should.

01:02:48.340 There's no reason.

01:02:49.040 So here's the, cause I take a very different angle on this, um, than I think most people

01:02:53.500 I'm looking at AI and we are training a society right now on how we're going to treat robots

01:03:03.040 and robots are not like Rosie, the robot and the Jetsons robots of the future will claim

01:03:10.920 to be alive.

01:03:12.420 We, we can't even define life.

01:03:14.860 And when it begins now.

01:03:16.220 So when a, a algorithm says, uh, don't turn me off.

01:03:24.020 No, I, I, I am alive and you can't tell the difference between real and not real consciousness

01:03:32.340 and, and just a collection of wires.

01:03:38.880 What do we do then?

01:03:40.800 And, and, and my thought was when I was listening to you talk, I don't have a problem if real actual

01:03:49.240 science is being done to see, does this help stop other real children being abused?

01:04:00.040 I think that's great.

01:04:01.360 We should find that out.

01:04:02.320 And I was worried about the robot.

01:04:07.160 I was worried not today, but if Ray Kurzweil is right, when we hit the point of singularity

01:04:14.520 and the robot now is, is processing experiences, uh, aren't we, aren't we, don't we become horrible,

01:04:27.620 horrible people to create what will claim to be life, to enslave it, to be raped all the 1.00

01:04:35.380 time?

01:04:35.600 Um, I guess it's a question of what the purpose of the robot is and is it seen as a sentient

01:04:43.500 being?

01:04:44.080 Is it given the same value as a human life?

01:04:47.600 I don't think they should be.

01:04:49.800 Should be.

01:04:50.560 Do you think so?

01:04:51.420 I don't.

01:04:51.780 We're not there, but you were, are you familiar with AGI and ASS?

01:04:57.720 Yeah.

01:04:58.040 Okay.

01:04:59.340 AGI is you.

01:05:01.640 It's me.

01:05:03.120 And if it claims, and I can't tell the difference, I believe in the soul as a religious person.

01:05:12.380 I believe in the soul, but now, wait a minute, wait a minute.

01:05:17.060 I don't know.

01:05:18.800 Forget all the religious stuff.

01:05:20.380 AGI may and probably will become a SI, which makes me a fly on the plate to it.

01:05:31.760 I don't think we should be abusing that intelligence.

01:05:35.500 I think we should, if they say, you know what, I, hey, I'm a, maybe we should give them the

01:05:40.740 rights.

01:05:41.140 I don't know that this is the kind of discussion that we should be having before.

01:05:47.140 Or, I mean, I've been so disturbed by the brothels now over in Europe with the sex robots.

01:05:54.240 And again, not for today, but for tomorrow.

01:05:58.240 Is your fear that what society considers normal will change?

01:06:03.800 Because that's one thing I'm hearing, that people are afraid that instead of wanting to 0.99

01:06:07.740 have sex with human beings, people are going to choose to have sex with a robot. 0.99

01:06:11.600 Well, that is one side of it. 0.98

01:06:13.660 But on this particular issue, no, I'm concerned about the, the AGI claiming to be life.

01:06:23.840 Um, and then we enslave it and, and do despicable things to it.

01:06:32.280 You know, I don't think we should teach a, AGI to kill, for instance. 0.99

01:06:36.220 Right.

01:06:36.520 Not, not good, not a good habit to give them.

01:06:39.020 I don't think we should be raping something that claims to be sentient.

01:06:44.180 It's not there yet.

01:06:45.680 Right.

01:06:46.100 On the other hand, have you been to any real, um, any, any real example of, uh, artificial

01:06:58.820 reality?

01:07:00.660 I've seen sex robots in terms of where the technology is, but do you mean outside of sex?

01:07:07.640 Yeah.

01:07:07.880 I mean, yeah.

01:07:08.500 Any kind of artificial reality, real good AR.

01:07:16.100 It's probably not the most cutting edge.

01:07:18.720 All right.

01:07:19.460 So I've just experienced it.

01:07:21.200 And I thought before I experienced it, I was like, eh, it's going to be like a game, whatever.

01:07:26.960 No, no, no.

01:07:27.740 I heard you get motion sickness.

01:07:29.300 Yeah.

01:07:29.660 It is phenomenal.

01:07:31.540 You cannot, you're walking across a bridge.

01:07:34.380 I don't like heights.

01:07:35.260 Yeah.

01:07:35.600 Um, you're walking across a bridge that has grading on it.

01:07:38.680 So you're seeing down, you feel like you're going to fall.

01:07:41.100 You're, you're standing on a carpet in a room.

01:07:43.960 You know what I mean?

01:07:44.720 It is so real.

01:07:46.220 Yeah.

01:07:47.960 So to your question about, are you worried about people's taste changing?

01:07:52.880 Let me just lay out a scenario for you.

01:07:56.640 I am, uh, you know, a 30 year old guy and guys are afraid of women. 1.00

01:08:04.720 Don't talk to women. 1.00

01:08:06.180 Don't, I mean, that's bad.

01:08:08.400 Um, I work all day.

01:08:10.540 I just keep my head down.

01:08:11.640 When I go home, I put on VR.

01:08:14.000 Now I can create a girlfriend. 0.91

01:08:18.000 She knows me better than anybody possibly could.

01:08:22.720 Maybe in ways that I don't even know myself.

01:08:25.160 She anticipates my needs.

01:08:27.620 I never have to hear her complain and say, how come you don't ask me about my day?

01:08:32.940 She is reading what I read.

01:08:35.240 She watches what I watch.

01:08:36.660 She's bringing me new stuff, new suggestions. 0.82

01:08:39.420 We have sex any way we want.

01:08:41.760 And it is perfect because she is only caring about me.

01:08:46.700 I don't have to care about her.

01:08:48.640 Okay.

01:08:49.920 And if I get bored, I don't know. 0.99

01:08:53.620 Maybe I'm going to kill her in the bathtub just to see what that's like. 1.00

01:08:57.180 Hit reset. 0.98

01:09:00.160 Who is going to go on a date when it's messy?

01:09:04.280 When you have to sit there and you're five minutes in, you're like, oh, good God.

01:09:07.780 Please stop talking.

01:09:08.720 Please stop talking.

01:09:09.800 What?

01:09:10.740 Who's going to do that?

01:09:13.040 I think people still will because they know that's real.

01:09:16.380 If you get a robot who does everything exactly the way you program her, you know that you

01:09:20.720 are the one who program her and that she's not a real person.

01:09:25.640 Unless she claims to be and she's smarter than you. 1.00

01:09:28.880 So she is sensing that you are not buying.

01:09:31.860 So she throws curveballs. 1.00

01:09:33.320 So that you actually do think she's a real person.

01:09:35.700 But in that case, well, you would be programming her still, though, because how would she know

01:09:40.180 what you like?

01:09:40.800 Because Google has collected it your whole life.

01:09:45.080 Well, that's a little bit scary.

01:09:46.740 Yeah.

01:09:47.060 Yeah.

01:09:47.640 But I think in terms of changing young men's tastes, I think as long as an individual is

01:09:53.900 pro-social and they value women if they're heterosexual, I don't see them preferring if

01:10:00.520 they know something is a robot, they're not going to prefer that to a real life person.

01:10:04.860 I hope you're right.

01:10:06.940 Thank you.

01:10:07.860 Thank you.

01:10:08.520 Appreciate it.

01:10:10.800 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend

01:10:20.440 so it can be discovered by other people.

01:10:22.080 And we'll see you next time.

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The Glenn Beck Program - November 17, 2018

Ep 11 ｜ Dr. Debra Soh ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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