The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 181 ｜ 'I Want to Live'： A Radically Honest Conversation About Surviving Depression ｜ Aaron and Teana Elmer ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

00:00:00.000 Suicide is one of the greatest epidemics of our time.

00:00:04.700 Every year, an estimated 1 million people worldwide kill themselves.

00:00:09.960 That means there's a death every 40 seconds.

00:00:13.080 In America, suicide rates have risen 30% since 1999.

00:00:17.520 Numbers keep climbing.

00:00:19.180 There were 45,000 suicide deaths in 2016 alone.

00:00:23.380 47,000 in 2017.

00:00:27.740 Roughly 129 people a day.

00:00:32.520 This podcast is special for many reasons.

00:00:36.080 For starters, today's guests are anonymous.

00:00:40.320 You've never heard of them.

00:00:41.800 They don't run a government agency or fill comedy clubs.

00:00:46.400 They're private people.

00:00:47.920 They don't have a new book out or a political platform.

00:00:52.560 To me, because I know them both personally,

00:00:55.940 they are living proof that tomorrow will come and tomorrow will be better.

00:01:03.900 They are living proof that hope is so important.

00:01:09.040 They're living proof of the crisis that for them has become an everyday story.

00:01:14.420 While they may seem anonymous, their struggle is so common that they're more like a representative.

00:01:23.880 Somebody brave enough to speak for all the bystanders as well as the voiceless.

00:01:29.920 Depression and suicide has affected every one of us somehow, in some way.

00:01:34.440 But we don't talk about it.

00:01:38.620 Silence is the wrong approach.

00:01:41.660 I've learned that a monster like depression only gets stronger when we run away from it or we don't understand it.

00:01:49.880 A lot of people are drowning in plain sight.

00:01:55.680 Largely because most of us have never been taught what to look for or what to do.

00:02:01.580 We're accustomed to the movie version of the person struggling in the water, flailing their arms and shrieking.

00:02:06.900 But in real life, drowning is quieter.

00:02:09.900 Something that you could see and not realize.

00:02:16.060 Today's guests are here to teach you what to look for and how to save someone's life who might be caught in the undertow.

00:02:26.340 And perhaps that person is you.

00:02:29.400 Please welcome Aaron and Tiana Elmer.

00:02:32.580 We have canceled all of the commercials in today's podcast, except for one.

00:02:39.980 What we're talking about is so deep and spiritual that there's only one client that I do that I think would even fit.

00:02:49.700 And that is the ministry of pre-born.

00:02:54.840 There's so much darkness in the world.

00:02:57.260 Nothing seems to have meaning.

00:02:58.920 And that includes life now.

00:03:01.120 Abortion takes nearly a million babies a year, just in America.

00:03:08.200 So the pre-born network clinics step into the darkness and they shine a light into the mother's womb by introducing the precious life growing inside of her to the mom through an ultrasound.

00:03:19.800 Once she hears the heartbeat, the maternal instincts kicked in.

00:03:24.000 Majority of the time, she'll choose life.

00:03:26.780 That's God's plan.

00:03:27.960 Since Dan Steiner, the president of pre-born, founded his life-saving ministry 16 years ago, over 200,000 babies have been saved.

00:03:38.300 For $140, you can introduce a mom to her baby on ultrasound and rescue five babies.

00:03:46.020 When you do, you're going to receive five stories and five ultrasound pictures of the babies saved.

00:03:50.660 Our goal this year is to rescue, I think it's about 80,000 babies' lives.

00:03:56.060 And we can only do it with your help.

00:03:58.380 So join us.

00:03:59.200 Just dial pound 250, say the keyword baby.

00:04:04.100 That's pound 250, keyword baby.

00:04:06.520 Or you can go online, visit preborn.com slash Glenn.

00:04:10.940 Preborn.com slash Glenn.

00:04:13.100 Aaron and Tiana, thank you for being here.

00:04:28.620 We have been friends for how long?

00:04:32.140 Seven years.

00:04:33.440 Something like that.

00:04:34.080 And I have watched you two, and you are truly, both of you, are truly amazing as individuals.

00:04:47.880 I don't know how it works as a couple, but as a couple, you seem to be so well-suited for each other.

00:04:55.760 But the strength that you guys ooze and the courage that you give people has been so inspiring that I wanted to have you guys on.

00:05:08.620 Because if anybody knows depression, it's you guys.

00:05:14.560 It is you.

00:05:15.520 And, you know, sometimes you are hopeful and you're there.

00:05:29.180 And other times you are struggling like Job.

00:05:35.900 And I don't think that's an overstatement.

00:05:39.720 No, it's not.

00:05:41.040 So, let's start with depression.

00:05:45.980 Maybe you should define what depression is, and then you can describe what you feel.

00:05:52.100 But what are we talking about when we talk about depression?

00:05:55.880 So, when we talk about depression, there's, you know, certain symptoms that you have to be experiencing for a certain period of time.

00:06:03.580 And so, you know, as a clinician, there's the DSM-5 that we go to to diagnose depression and other mental health illnesses.

00:06:12.980 So, some of the symptoms that occur are like isolation, just an inability to enjoy things that you normally would enjoy, trouble with sleep, sleeping too much, not sleeping enough, and so forth.

00:06:29.940 And oftentimes these are unremitting symptoms that go on for at least two weeks.

00:06:36.060 So, then there is, and people who have never had clinical depression, they don't know how to separate.

00:06:45.220 They think, oh, well, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, man.

00:06:49.680 Just get out of bed.

00:06:51.060 That's what you have to do.

00:06:52.100 And they have no idea.

00:06:53.880 It is a completely different world.

00:06:56.660 I can speak to that a little bit because I tell some people that growing up, I was a really high achiever.

00:07:06.560 I graduated at 17 from high school and went to college and did really well, like spread my wings and was happy to be on my own.

00:07:16.340 And about a year later, I started having symptoms for the first time.

00:07:21.060 And the contrast between just having all this capacity and this ability to just kind of manage life on my terms, get up early, do what I needed to do.

00:07:33.240 There's a story I tell people sometimes.

00:07:35.460 I remember the first three years of my issues.

00:07:40.660 I spent about 18 hours in bed every day.

00:07:43.700 And I'd get out and kind of go hang out with some friends a little bit, but most of the time I isolated and I just had no energy.

00:07:51.580 And I remember one time, I don't remember how far in, maybe a few months in, saying, Aaron, this isn't you.

00:07:57.800 Like, get up and be productive.

00:08:00.060 Like, go do something.

00:08:01.240 So my laundry was just spread everywhere on the floor.

00:08:04.260 Like, I'd just take it off and get into bed and put other clothes on.

00:08:08.440 And so there's just a mess of a room.

00:08:10.700 And my mom taught me at an early age to do laundry.

00:08:12.760 So I separated my whites and my colors and I went and put a load in.

00:08:17.580 And it seems so silly because it's not, it's a trivial matter.

00:08:20.340 But I remember just crying in my bed afterwards thinking, how come it's so hard to just do laundry?

00:08:28.700 Like, it's laundry.

00:08:29.960 I'm not even doing anything.

00:08:31.740 And to see that contrast between who I had been and what I was capable of and how little I felt I could really do in those moments, it was so heart-wrenching.

00:08:48.100 It was so difficult.

00:08:50.100 And you find yourself kind of getting into self-negative self-talk and beating yourself up.

00:08:58.820 And if I can just...

00:09:00.100 And it's just no boss.

00:09:01.520 Yeah, and you reaffirm that and you go in this process.

00:09:05.340 And part of the reason I try to talk to people and be open about it is because I want people to see them for the way I see them.

00:09:13.860 And to see the resilience it takes to manage a mental illness and to manage deep depression and to keep finding ways and reasons to keep going.

00:09:27.140 So how long did it take you before...

00:09:29.860 Because I've been suicidal when I was younger.

00:09:33.200 And it is a different world.

00:09:36.840 I mean, it seems sane to you at the time.

00:09:41.380 Insanity seems sane.

00:09:44.120 And while you're in it, you're searching for the problem.

00:09:52.940 You know, maybe it's this.

00:09:54.860 Maybe it's that.

00:09:56.200 And as you exhaust all of those, you then arrive at it's me, which is horrible.

00:10:02.600 So, explain the difference between a parent dying and being depressed and the way you experience depression.

00:10:13.640 Do they at all fit hand in hand with...

00:10:17.140 I don't have the quote.

00:10:18.940 I wish I had it on me.

00:10:19.820 But I was recently reading C.S. Lewis's...

00:10:23.220 I forget the name of the title.

00:10:25.240 On grief about losing his wife.

00:10:27.440 And some of those feelings of being abandoned by God.

00:10:31.440 And here's C.S. Lewis who wrote Mere Christianity.

00:10:33.920 You know, had some great insights on things.

00:10:36.960 And he was in a place of desperation.

00:10:39.620 And so, I think there are commonalities in that process.

00:10:43.360 I tell people it's often like...

00:10:46.000 At least with my...

00:10:47.380 Everyone's different.

00:10:48.260 But it's like being paralyzed.

00:10:50.640 And having to relearn how to live.

00:10:54.880 And you get caught up in those past expectations and who you were and what you could be.

00:11:02.740 And I was getting my haircut the other day.

00:11:05.760 And I sat with this girl.

00:11:07.160 And I told her I was doing this.

00:11:09.140 And she just opened her heart to me.

00:11:12.480 And I told her why I was doing it.

00:11:14.440 And she just started pouring her heart out.

00:11:15.840 I won't get into details.

00:11:16.800 But she said, oh, I'm behind.

00:11:21.220 I'm behind.

00:11:22.420 I'm not...

00:11:23.020 You know, she started all that negative self-talk.

00:11:25.060 And I just stopped her and said, you're right where you need to be.

00:11:28.400 The battle to get up and to keep fighting and finding hope and strength.

00:11:36.400 It doesn't happen overnight.

00:11:38.040 I tell people...

00:11:40.400 People like me have a mindset of like, I want to plant my flag.

00:11:45.440 I want to climb Everest and plant my flag.

00:11:47.740 I'm going to beat this illness.

00:11:49.680 I'm going to show that I can do every resource, every aspect of it and manage it.

00:11:55.680 And I just, in my life, have not found that's how it works.

00:11:59.820 I find it's a little bit like Groundhog's Day, the Bill Murray, where you're just over and over.

00:12:06.200 And sometimes that's almost the own trauma.

00:12:09.160 And so, just trying to help people realize that the simple decisions they make day to day, they create progress in time.

00:12:20.040 And sometimes if you look at it too close, you won't see the progress.

00:12:26.040 I measure my life in three-year segments.

00:12:28.800 Because if I look too close, sometimes I just feel defeated.

00:12:32.560 But as I've lived long enough to see progress, I look at it and I'm like, I can't believe you've done what you've done.

00:12:42.540 And let's talk about the first time you guys met.

00:12:48.300 It was your second suicide attempt?

00:12:51.280 No.

00:12:51.740 Your first suicide attempt, right?

00:12:53.760 After.

00:12:54.420 So, yeah.

00:12:55.380 So, just a little bit.

00:12:57.260 I started having issues around, I think I was 19, about four months into my first step.

00:13:05.060 I had a manic episode.

00:13:06.120 I didn't know what it was.

00:13:07.160 I won't go into the details.

00:13:08.100 But I was driving through the night at aggressive speeds.

00:13:11.640 And people don't think there's a problem if you're manic.

00:13:14.780 Well, hypomania, a lot of people feel really good and creative and they kind of want to live in that.

00:13:19.700 And then sometimes with bipolar one, you can escalate to kind of a more agitated mania where life feels like it's going too fast.

00:13:27.960 A thing I do with people sometimes is I say, well, what if I tap your head?

00:13:34.200 And I just keep doing it.

00:13:35.500 And they're like, okay, yeah, I get it.

00:13:36.620 And then you're like, keep doing it.

00:13:38.100 And there comes a point where they're like, okay, stop.

00:13:40.280 Like, I don't feel comfortable with that.

00:13:42.800 And just to give the idea that that's kind of how it can get.

00:13:47.680 And so, I was going through some of that and had to withdraw from school.

00:13:50.960 And I wasn't sleeping for days on end.

00:13:53.280 And there's kind of this process of kind of that and then these really depressive episodes.

00:13:57.380 And my issues happen over the years to be a lot of depression that's really deep and that is hard to – the meds just haven't worked.

00:14:12.480 And so, I deal with a lot of really depressive episodes.

00:14:16.160 And so, about four months in, I had a suicide attempt.

00:14:22.340 And I won't get into the details, but my life wasn't at risk, but I let go 100%.

00:14:29.020 And I admitted myself into a psychiatric hospital and spent some time there.

00:14:34.080 And it was a real blessing for me because I went to an adult unit.

00:14:37.340 I was 19, just over the threshold, about a year.

00:14:41.180 And I spent some time and I met some people that were angels to me.

00:14:46.300 And one lady in particular, I won't get into details, but she struggled with deep depression. 0.99

00:14:51.880 And she took me under her wing like a mother.

00:14:55.600 She was older and had dealt with alcoholism and different difficulties.

00:14:59.720 And she showed me where all the answers weren't.

00:15:05.140 And I saw that at 19.

00:15:07.080 And I saw the scars and the trauma.

00:15:10.340 And this lady was angelic.

00:15:12.940 She had the greatest heart.

00:15:15.460 And she told me about her life and all the difficulties.

00:15:19.920 And I couldn't believe it because she was so beautiful and so amazing.

00:15:25.160 And so, I really learned early on that drugs and alcohol didn't have any answers for me.

00:15:31.620 And I'm very grateful for that because later on, that was more of a temptation or a way to cope.

00:15:40.660 And at that time, I learned.

00:15:42.560 And so, I had struggled for about three years.

00:15:45.900 And towards the end of that, I found some meds that kind of helped to work a little bit.

00:15:51.060 Gave me a little bit more stability.

00:15:53.220 And so, I went and worked retail for 15 hours a week.

00:15:56.120 And I missed twice.

00:15:57.620 And that was like a revelation.

00:15:59.860 Like that was, hey, I can maybe do something with my life other than sit in bed.

00:16:04.580 And it was such a small thing.

00:16:06.440 And it was shortly after that, I went to visit my parents.

00:16:09.560 And I got to meet Tiana.

00:16:11.840 In Australia.

00:16:12.740 Yes, in Australia.

00:16:13.880 My parents were in Australia.

00:16:15.680 When I was young, I was in love with Olivia Newton-John.

00:16:19.280 And I've always loved the Australian accent.

00:16:22.180 You better go home because you're about to lose it.

00:16:23.940 I don't have it anyway.

00:16:25.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:16:26.020 Only when I'm stressed.

00:16:28.100 So, you guys met?

00:16:30.920 We met at like a Bible study for college kids.

00:16:35.320 Okay.

00:16:35.740 Yeah.

00:16:36.300 And tell me about that.

00:16:38.520 You were good at this time?

00:16:40.680 I was doing better.

00:16:43.120 But, I mean, in the big scheme, right, I was barely out of the water.

00:16:46.960 Right.

00:16:47.300 But I felt I was starting to regain some hope.

00:16:51.680 How long did it take before you saw something or he said something about?

00:16:55.800 Oh, we had a really great first, like, unofficial date.

00:17:03.780 And we just opened up to each other.

00:17:06.860 And I had no idea about depression or mental illness.

00:17:11.300 It wasn't in my family.

00:17:12.460 When he said he was bipolar, he's like, oh, whatever.

00:17:14.440 You're so much fun.

00:17:15.580 I think he was manic that night. 0.82

00:17:17.660 Hypo manic.

00:17:18.220 So, we had a great time.

00:17:20.380 But I think what really struck us both was just this openness and this connection that we were feeling with each other.

00:17:29.720 I joke.

00:17:30.340 I first met her at a church thing and I saw this girl across the room and she has this beautiful smile and this countenance, this aura of just happiness.

00:17:39.560 And I thought, I want that.

00:17:42.500 I want to feel that again.

00:17:44.420 And as I got to know her, I came back later and we started to hang out.

00:17:49.540 There was a lot of depth to her.

00:17:51.060 This didn't come from a place of naivety.

00:17:53.940 She had gone through experiences in life that were hard and she still had a love for life and a zeal and it hadn't jaded her.

00:18:04.440 And then I was like, that's what I really want.

00:18:07.820 And that's what I want and that's what I'm trying to find.

00:18:10.800 And I was on that path and she was definitely further down it.

00:18:14.260 And so, I had a thing.

00:18:16.060 I'm a little unique to some people.

00:18:17.840 Everyone has a different level of comfort.

00:18:21.140 I had self-injury scars on my arms and I would not wear long sleeve.

00:18:25.740 If it was summer, I said, I can't hide this from myself.

00:18:29.940 So, I'm not going to hide it from everyone else.

00:18:32.380 And there's some questions of how healthy that was or not.

00:18:36.680 But some of that helped me kind of dissipate some of the stigma.

00:18:40.780 And I found 80% of what people shared with me when I talked to them and they asked me questions was positive.

00:18:48.660 It was connecting. 0.98

00:18:49.960 And there's 5% that would say something dumb. 0.94

00:18:52.700 And it was more a reflection of their experience in life and where they were at. 0.88

00:18:57.200 So, two things that come to mind.

00:18:59.880 First, let me talk a little bit more about your relationship.

00:19:03.360 Because I was an alcoholic and I was probably three years in recovery.

00:19:10.400 And I was really white knuckling it really badly.

00:19:14.220 And I had been praying, you know, help, help, help, help, help.

00:19:18.400 And when I met Tanya, I think I felt the same way you felt here.

00:19:24.940 And because she was just beaming from the inside.

00:19:29.060 And I remember when I knew I had to marry her, we were standing in my kitchen and she was facing this way.

00:19:36.920 And I went behind her and I was just holding her like this.

00:19:39.560 And I could feel the goodness, almost like a black hole just being sucked out of her and put into me.

00:19:45.480 And I said, I felt bad.

00:19:49.740 And I said, I want you to know I'm stealing light from you.

00:19:54.700 And without hesitation, she said, you can't steal that which is being given.

00:20:00.460 And I thought, I have got to marry this woman. 0.98

00:20:03.800 Did you at any time feel like you don't know what you're dealing with?

00:20:10.420 I'm stealing light from you.

00:20:12.580 I'm using you for light.

00:20:14.120 This is where it gets a little serious.

00:20:20.420 We were married a year.

00:20:23.340 We hardly ever fought.

00:20:25.000 We didn't have a lot of those first year.

00:20:26.920 Like we both came in with, we didn't have fixed ideas of what it needed to be.

00:20:33.940 It was kind of let's work together and make it work.

00:20:36.700 And so for some people in marriage, you know, there's all these first year problems.

00:20:39.920 We got along great.

00:20:40.960 We lived in Australia while she waited for her visa.

00:20:44.720 And towards the end of that, I wasn't doing well.

00:20:47.780 I was so fixated on moving forward in life and getting college education.

00:20:51.580 And, and there came a point where I started to realize when I was dating her and kind of what you're saying this.

00:20:59.660 I just, I kind of forgot that I was mentally depressed and, and being around her.

00:21:07.540 When we got married, I realized all of a sudden selfishly, I had not thought about the impact of my issues on her.

00:21:15.280 And it was really hard for me.

00:21:18.040 Um, the most beautiful, loving person I'd ever met had to deal with self-injury issues with, from me, had to deal with my mood set.

00:21:29.280 I couldn't, it was no longer just how I felt.

00:21:31.560 I had to incorporate how someone else was affected and it was, it was a maturing process, but it was really hard.

00:21:38.060 And we went back to the States and went back to school and the pressure of everything and being married.

00:21:43.920 I, uh, I attempted suicide a second time because I thought she can move on.

00:21:50.920 I can't, this is my burden to carry and I tried to carry it alone and, um, I, I don't wish this on anyone, but sitting in the hospital, waiting to know whether you're going to live or die.

00:22:07.060 Um, I, I, I saw the love from the, from her, from Tiana that I didn't quite comprehend at that point.

00:22:17.300 A, a Christ-like love, a love that I am going to stand here by your side, no matter what.

00:22:23.980 And, um, I'm sad that it took me that to see it, but I have never had an attempt since I've gotten close and I've had difficult times, but I, I kept, you can speak to it better, but I feel like I kind of tried to be what I thought she needed instead of being an equal partner.

00:22:45.720 So before we get you to answer that, did you see this coming in your relationship?

00:22:51.960 This, the second attempt, I think before we got married, I really had to have this like internal introspection of like, can I handle all things?

00:23:04.320 Like, can I handle best case scenario and worst case scenario?

00:23:08.180 And I understood before we got married, that worst case scenario was like losing him.

00:23:14.680 But for me, I, I, I saw him for who he was.

00:23:20.080 I saw him for who God knew him to be.

00:23:23.420 And when we connected that, I mean, first night and all the other times that we went on all these dates, I saw his heart and his like love for people and God and his just, he was a good person.

00:23:37.960 And I could see him like trying through the struggle.

00:23:43.480 And I, I adored that.

00:23:45.440 I thought he was my hero.

00:23:47.000 I was like, wow, I can't imagine what it must feel like to, to not have your mind be.

00:23:53.680 Yours.

00:23:54.280 Yes.

00:23:54.900 A centering, like safe place.

00:23:57.000 I have that, you know, I've, like he said, I've gone through hard things, but I could always come back to my mind and know that it was a safe place.

00:24:05.240 That I can, your mind, most people don't understand if you haven't gone through something like this, your mind knows you better than it's like AI.

00:24:13.840 It knows you better than, you know.

00:24:15.880 And so it just, it can trick you.

00:24:18.500 Yeah.

00:24:18.680 It just goes around and a good friend of mine with alcoholism said, when you least expect it, expect it because it will seem completely rational to you to take that drink.

00:24:30.540 Yeah.

00:24:30.760 And when that happened to me, I was like, oh my gosh, your mind just can blind you.

00:24:36.400 So did you see it coming though?

00:24:38.820 Did you see the ramp up or was that a surprise when you attempted?

00:24:42.800 No, I think we were both busy.

00:24:44.520 We were both going to school and I think, I don't know.

00:24:49.540 I didn't see it coming at all.

00:24:50.700 Can I ask you something that I have to believe most people have asked you and if I were you, it would piss me off a little bit because of what you just said about your husband. 1.00

00:25:02.760 But before you got married, you're not stupid. 0.92

00:25:06.660 So you did examine, but I imagine people come up and say, why did you marry him in the first place? 0.99

00:25:13.220 Yeah, I did.

00:25:14.300 I had that a lot.

00:25:15.880 Oh, not a lot, but a little bit.

00:25:18.240 Your dad told me that he even went to you and said, you don't understand.

00:25:21.940 I don't want to throw my punter pants under the bus, but they did have a talk with Tiana and kind of said, are you sure?

00:25:28.680 Do you understand what you're getting into?

00:25:30.300 I will say 100% my methodology when I got to the seriousness of wanting to marry someone was everything has to be in the open.

00:25:41.180 Yeah.

00:25:41.420 I can't hide anything going in.

00:25:45.060 And it's not fair, not right.

00:25:47.440 And so I think I would try to be as transparent as possible, but you can't know everything.

00:25:53.140 Well, your father told me the other day that he tried to warn you and he said, when you said, I've prayed about it, I know, he said, who am I to argue with God?

00:26:07.620 Yeah.

00:26:08.060 I mean, that's really what happened.

00:26:09.880 I prayed about it and I asked the Lord, you know, I understand this is worst case scenario.

00:26:16.340 Am I going to be okay?

00:26:17.400 And I got my answer.

00:26:20.560 And so I was like, okay, we're going to do this.

00:26:22.980 And like, whatever happens, it's going to work out and I'm going to be okay.

00:26:28.680 I've gone through hard things.

00:26:30.400 You know, we all have a story.

00:26:31.600 We all have difficulty and we all suffer.

00:26:34.120 And so I was, I guess, ready to take the good, which I knew was so good with, you know, through sickness and health.

00:26:44.200 How did you react when you found out?

00:26:47.020 What?

00:26:48.200 I mean, because, I mean, both of you guys at times, and I know, I don't know you're, I know you're not, but at times you both seem superhuman to me, you know, because, I mean, Tanya and I go through stuff all the time.

00:27:02.900 And there are moments that you're like, okay, all right.

00:27:07.420 And there have to be those moments.

00:27:09.440 Yes, plenty.

00:27:10.520 But, my gosh, you're taking on things that most people don't.

00:27:22.880 They don't have to live like you and they would choose not to live like you.

00:27:27.020 So, what was your first reaction when you found out that he tried to kill himself?

00:27:34.820 So, I, I'm a really heavy sleeper and I had inspiration that was like, get up.

00:27:44.480 And so, I got up and I, it was like, it was like, I didn't hear God's voice, but it was like, I got all this information.

00:27:51.980 I don't know if you've ever had that feeling.

00:27:54.120 And I just knew he attempted suicide.

00:27:56.920 Like, he was, he had attempted, he'd taken something.

00:27:59.540 And I just got up and I said, Aaron, what did you do?

00:28:02.800 And he was like.

00:28:04.880 Nothing.

00:28:05.240 And it was like, I don't know, three in the morning.

00:28:08.060 It was early morning hours.

00:28:10.720 And he just looked at me and I was like, let's go.

00:28:12.640 We're going to the hospital.

00:28:14.300 And so, I was really in like that go mode of just like, we're having a crisis.

00:28:20.640 And so, I don't even remember feeling much of anything except I've got to take this man that I love like to the hospital.

00:28:29.400 Right.

00:28:29.740 Because I know he's taken a lot of pills.

00:28:32.840 Um, and in your mind, you were doing her a favor.

00:28:38.860 Yeah.

00:28:39.660 Um, I, I, I, so that night was really difficult for me.

00:28:46.940 I called seven people and no one answered and it reinforced this validation of my thinking.

00:28:54.560 The person I needed to talk to was in the bed room next to me.

00:28:59.520 And that's something I want to stress to people in crisis.

00:29:03.500 That there is always someone, there's hotlines, if nothing else.

00:29:07.340 But at that time, I, I only saw her as someone to, to live up to.

00:29:12.520 And, and, and I misread it.

00:29:15.100 And had I just gone and had the conversation with her, um, of where I really was and I might need to withdraw from school and I'm, I'm overwhelmed by everything.

00:29:25.820 Right.

00:29:26.480 And, um, had that conversation with, we, we, um, I went into that hospital.

00:29:32.940 The doctor said, there's a 35 to 40% chance you don't come out here alive.

00:29:37.180 And, um, and then just waiting for that process.

00:29:43.180 And I don't want to go into more detail, but when did you go, dear God, what have I done?

00:29:48.320 Um, I had a weird experience cause there was an, I want to be careful how I talk to details, but I could have done something else in the process and it was right there to do it.

00:30:04.800 And one of the first questions they asked when we got there was, did you do this as well as what you did?

00:30:11.060 And I said, no.

00:30:13.000 And I knew right then that that was, that that was the difference.

00:30:17.480 And I didn't know a hundred percent out, like there was a chance I've had kidney, kidney damage and dialysis and there was still a lot to know.

00:30:24.620 So was that in, whether you thought it or not at the time, was that a, almost a cry for help of, I'm not going that far.

00:30:32.580 I want to, some chance to live.

00:30:34.100 No, no, he didn't understand the interaction.

00:30:36.860 No, in the moment I didn't know, honestly, I just had so much in my body.

00:30:41.880 I didn't know if I could take any more in.

00:30:44.800 And, um, and I love Dr. Pepper and I took it with Dr. Pepper and it probably wasn't a good mix because of all the carbonation.

00:30:52.060 So, so, uh, so yeah, so that was a blessing.

00:30:55.700 This podcast brought to you by Dr. Pepper reluctantly.

00:30:59.800 So, yeah.

00:31:00.480 Yeah. So I think there was, there was a lot learned in that.

00:31:03.100 And, um, it was a turning point for our marriage because like up until that point, it was early on, it was like the first year and a half.

00:31:12.980 Yeah.

00:31:13.180 Um, he always shut me out.

00:31:15.880 Like, I just need to be alone.

00:31:17.620 Just go away. 0.98

00:31:18.180 Like, I'm fine.

00:31:18.660 I just need to be alone.

00:31:19.660 And so as somebody who's like the caregiver, the loved one of someone suffering, it was like, I already felt so hopeless.

00:31:26.160 I already didn't know what to do.

00:31:28.580 And then it was just like, you know, pushing me away.

00:31:33.640 And I think after that experience, he realized that how important it was to let me in.

00:31:39.540 Your partners.

00:31:40.280 Yeah.

00:31:40.660 And for me, that was huge in that connection and trust.

00:31:44.080 And even if I didn't know what to say, I could just tell him I loved him and just sit with him for hours at night and just, he didn't have to do this all alone.

00:31:58.220 It was healing.

00:31:59.320 So is this, cause you've talked about a paradigm shift.

00:32:03.160 Is this where the paradigm shift happened or was that at the beginning?

00:32:07.460 Um, your first.

00:32:08.840 It's different.

00:32:09.360 There, there was definitely a paradigm shift.

00:32:11.240 I I've actually talked in the, in a church that, um, kind of before that time, I, there, there's a, I guess I'll just share it with you.

00:32:19.140 There's a scripture.

00:32:19.980 So my, my second son's name is Jairus.

00:32:22.260 Yeah.

00:32:22.680 We call him Jai, but his name's Jairus.

00:32:24.960 One of my favorite, I don't know if you've watched the chosen, but they did a great, great version of it.

00:32:29.880 And, um, there's a line in there when they arrive, he gets, he gets Jesus.

00:32:35.100 He finds, he realizes Jesus is the only one who can save her.

00:32:37.560 They get there and they say, and they, the master of the synagogue, I can't remember who it is, but he says, um, trouble, not the master.

00:32:45.700 He's got Jesus with him.

00:32:47.060 He's like, Hey, you've arrived too late.

00:32:49.240 Maybe he can heal people.

00:32:50.460 We've heard all the miracles he's done.

00:32:52.280 I'm paraphrasing.

00:32:53.360 So pardon me, but, but you're too late.

00:32:56.940 Trouble, not the master.

00:32:58.240 And I think even the apostles in that point, they hadn't seen him raise someone from the dead.

00:33:03.580 So they're probably like, ah, dang it.

00:33:05.500 You know, we did the best we could.

00:33:07.800 Right.

00:33:08.280 And the message I have to people is, uh, that's kind of how I lived that first few years before that.

00:33:14.720 Trouble, not the master.

00:33:15.600 Yeah.

00:33:15.880 Yeah.

00:33:16.220 Like he's forgiven me more than times than, than I deserve.

00:33:21.020 He's, I'm not good enough.

00:33:23.100 I'm defective.

00:33:23.900 What can I measure up to?

00:33:25.220 How can I be of worth to God?

00:33:27.360 And I had a lot of that thinking in my head.

00:33:29.820 And, um, Jesus turns to Jairus and says, fear not believe only.

00:33:36.840 And then he goes and raises his daughter from the dead.

00:33:41.620 And, uh, my exclamation to people is Christ is God.

00:33:48.500 Christ is a son of God.

00:33:49.540 Christ can do all things.

00:33:51.060 So let's not take our illnesses and our difficulties and think we're past the point of, as long as there is breath in our life.

00:33:59.440 Or even past.

00:34:00.400 And even past.

00:34:01.240 And we can get into a whole nother conversation about that.

00:34:03.880 But, uh, there's always hope.

00:34:07.360 There's always hope.

00:34:09.260 And all we have to do is have the strength to turn to him.

00:34:14.660 So when things get really dark for you.

00:34:17.820 Because I would imagine you have gone through times where you feel God has abandoned me, all of this.

00:34:25.420 And it's nice to have, I mean, my faith, my faith, I feel is pretty rock solid, unshakable.

00:34:35.040 Um, but my family has just gone through some things where I could have easily started to go, you know, what else, what, what else here?

00:34:44.860 I mean, what, what, what have you abandoned?

00:34:49.760 You know what I mean?

00:34:50.680 And I didn't think goodness, but I could easily do that some other time.

00:34:54.780 When you're got your mind playing all kinds of tricks and leading you into darkness.

00:35:00.960 How do you hold on to that?

00:35:03.840 So there's a lot of methodology to that.

00:35:06.560 I think there's two sides of it.

00:35:07.980 For me, there's one of the things we talk a lot about one thing that changed about, I think it was, I remember driving home from college.

00:35:15.460 It took me nine years to graduate from college after having a scholarship and all these things beforehand.

00:35:21.140 It had to go slow and steady.

00:35:22.980 And, um, I remember driving home and just crying as I drove home from night school thinking, will I ever have a day?

00:35:31.020 I don't feel suicidal.

00:35:32.300 And I didn't want to die.

00:35:33.680 I, I, I had a lot of, I'm a pretty optimistic person, but the ideation with stress and all these things just wouldn't go away.

00:35:42.340 And, um, I just remember thinking, will I ever, I'll tell you now that was 10 years and eight, eight years ago.

00:35:48.640 I don't feel that anymore.

00:35:50.380 And one thing that has really helped me, um, there's some medical interventions that really helped, but one thing that really helped, um, was seeing the illness as an illness.

00:36:01.940 And I think too many people, because it affects emotional states and, and, and kind of the cerebral cortex and, and kind of how you think and different things.

00:36:12.660 We, we start to tie our self-worth to how we feel.

00:36:15.580 I always tell people we react on emotion more than we think just normal people.

00:36:20.280 We, when, when it's our birthday, we feel a little better.

00:36:22.700 Or when we have something that happened on a day in the past, we have a trauma in the past.

00:36:27.340 That day is going to be always a little harder than other days.

00:36:29.900 We have a great dream or a bad dream.

00:36:32.200 It can stick with you all day.

00:36:33.940 And so we, we more, even people who are pretty intellectual, I think make decisions on how they feel more than they think.

00:36:42.100 And so one thing I've had to learn is to kind of separate my decisions from how I feel.

00:36:51.060 And it's hard because it's pressing on you.

00:36:54.140 So I joke with people like, it's like giving the lion inside you a ball of yarn to play with.

00:36:59.140 And you're not repressing it.

00:37:00.600 You're not caging it, but you're kind of giving it place in you without living in it.

00:37:06.420 Yeah. And, and one thing I've learned in, in years of depression that I, I never learned this from a book or therapy, but it, it kind of speaks generally is, is if we can learn to separate.

00:37:18.940 Um, so when you feel depressed, usually you want to either escape it or you want to validate it.

00:37:26.320 And so what I find a lot of young people do early on is they want to validate, they feel terrible and they want to reinforce by watching movies that are kind of disturbing by listening to music that reinforces that, that state.

00:37:39.940 Because it then gives plate, it's like, okay, this is part of me.

00:37:44.160 So this is, I mean, a very, um, surfacy kind of comparison.

00:37:51.680 You break up with somebody, you want to listen to sad songs.

00:37:54.680 Okay. Um, but that can go to the extreme and that digs you deeper into it.

00:38:00.060 It depends.

00:38:01.100 So now I have a methodology where, um, I will have time.

00:38:05.180 There's times when I feel really down, I have a playlist of depressing music, but it's never suicide's the answer.

00:38:11.840 It's never escaping.

00:38:13.820 It's validating.

00:38:15.180 It's saying, this is part of what I deal with and I need some validation in this place.

00:38:19.140 So I'll go get in the bath with the lights off and kind of listen to it for a period.

00:38:23.500 And then I'm done.

00:38:25.380 And then I move back to, to interacting with my kids and connecting with them.

00:38:31.220 So what was the other one?

00:38:32.460 One is validating.

00:38:33.860 You said they go two ways.

00:38:35.000 Escape.

00:38:35.700 Escape.

00:38:36.540 I think a lot of times, right.

00:38:37.600 We want to run away from our problems.

00:38:39.600 We want to self-medicate.

00:38:40.680 We want to do things to kind of not feel it, the depression.

00:38:45.560 And I think.

00:38:46.360 Especially if you don't understand it.

00:38:50.360 Like I, cause that's why I'm an alcoholic.

00:38:53.560 You know, I, I, I thought it was my marriage.

00:38:57.200 I thought it was me.

00:38:58.340 I thought, you know, you just keep going through stuff.

00:39:02.120 That's why it's important.

00:39:02.900 And I think when you said about the woman who you talked to at first, she showed you what, where you wouldn't find it.

00:39:08.500 Yeah.

00:39:08.740 You know, you wouldn't find the answers.

00:39:10.520 That's hard.

00:39:11.480 But especially if you don't know anyone who's ever had real depression.

00:39:16.080 Yeah.

00:39:16.600 So, um, what have you found that helps?

00:39:27.760 I mean, we're, we're sitting in a nation now that, I mean, suicide is off the charts.

00:39:35.840 And I mean, I have my own theories on why that's happening, but one of the biggest ones seems to be your bigger answer.

00:39:45.080 And that's God.

00:39:46.440 There doesn't seem to be a universal understanding of we are here for a reason in our life.

00:39:55.500 All of our lives, no matter what, has a purpose, has a reason.

00:39:59.040 We have a reason to be.

00:40:01.800 What are the things that, and I'd probably rather have you at first start.

00:40:08.100 What are the things that somebody who is dealing with this at home, somebody who hasn't seen it, what are the things?

00:40:17.940 When, when, when do you say something?

00:40:20.240 When do you not say something?

00:40:22.380 Like getting help, you're saying?

00:40:24.140 Yeah.

00:40:24.500 Okay.

00:40:24.840 And just dealing with it.

00:40:26.380 What are the do's and the don'ts here?

00:40:28.420 Let's start there first.

00:40:29.820 Well, and from, I'll speak from like a caregiver, loved one standpoint first.

00:40:34.440 I think Aaron kind of touched on this, like no understanding that it's an illness.

00:40:38.780 So if somebody has been like diagnosed or is chronically dealing with these depressive symptoms, as a caregiver, the best thing that you can do is, is recognize that it's an illness.

00:40:52.540 It's not like they don't love you enough.

00:40:54.660 So they're choosing to stay in bed or they don't care about you enough.

00:40:58.440 So they don't want to go out with you or something like that.

00:41:02.160 It really is an illness.

00:41:03.100 And for me, that was such a, um, a big turning point in our marriage.

00:41:08.960 And I think in the continuing that trust and connection was I knew if Aaron could get up, he would, if he could get out of bed, he would.

00:41:19.160 And it stopped being about like me and the reflection it was on me if I went to church by myself or things like that.

00:41:25.900 And it was more of like, my husband is giving everything that he can and he'd get up and go with me if he could.

00:41:32.860 Well, how do you get there?

00:41:34.400 I mean, without getting into details.

00:41:37.400 Yeah.

00:41:38.420 That's a tough one.

00:41:39.140 I have three children who have gone through this in the last year.

00:41:43.360 And, um, and, and, and part of it, especially with teenagers, this society is so upside down, so screwed up and pouring just poison into them.

00:41:55.280 Yeah. 0.69

00:41:55.680 And nobody expects anything from anybody.

00:41:58.940 And you're comparing yourself online all the time.

00:42:01.560 Yeah.

00:42:01.780 I said this to the counselor.

00:42:03.440 How do I know what's real?

00:42:05.480 I know what depression is.

00:42:07.640 I know what suicide is.

00:42:08.720 My mother committed suicide.

00:42:10.340 I get it.

00:42:12.080 But how do you know when it's real and when it's environmental?

00:42:17.720 Yeah.

00:42:18.140 It's there.

00:42:19.000 It's a, it's a, it's a tricky dance that I do.

00:42:21.820 So, and I think it just takes time.

00:42:24.360 And over years, I, I, I know when Aaron is, um, and I tell me if I'm not answering your question right, but I can tell when Aaron is really struggling and just not able to get up and out of bed.

00:42:37.560 And I can tell when I can maybe push him a little bit.

00:42:40.000 And if I get pushed back, then I step back.

00:42:42.820 So I kind of know, like, I'm in therapy, therapists do this where it's like, we're going to push you a little bit, but not too far because we don't want you to shut down.

00:42:51.160 You know, um, so I think that's a hard one to answer because it, it takes time and recognizing his triggers and him being aware.

00:43:01.360 And I think also a big part is that open communication.

00:43:04.500 Like I've, we've had a lot of conversations about like, I really need you to tell me when it's like, when you're starting to feel triggered or like, not, not when it's too late.

00:43:19.900 And we're kind of in crisis mode.

00:43:22.380 And, and I've told my patients and their families, especially with, with kids, sometimes like they don't want to open up and share what they're feeling.

00:43:30.200 Sometimes having like a code would, it sounds so cliche, but like, even if like pineapple, like pineapple means like I'm having suicidal thoughts or I, you know, define it beforehand, sit down with your loved one and come up with a plan.

00:43:45.280 Cause sometimes they don't want to tell you, Hey, this is what I'm feeling.

00:43:48.720 So tell me about ideation and then tell me why it's so important to know it.

00:43:56.200 Tell me about ideation.

00:43:59.360 Yeah.

00:44:00.020 I, um, the best analogy I think of is it's a different application, but I remember being a boy scout when I was a lot young and getting a life-saving mirror badge.

00:44:09.220 And they tell you when someone's drowning to come up from behind them, cause they'll try to drown you.

00:44:14.540 And, and you think in that, that crisis of panic, how getting a breath is all that matters for that person drowning.

00:44:22.180 Um, I think sometimes, um, suicidal ideation, similar, your body, your brain for different reasons, sometimes trigger, sometimes emotional, but mostly biochemical on some level.

00:44:36.280 Um, your brain's kind of saying abort, like it can't deal with this level of stress or this level of difficulty.

00:44:46.140 And the only answer is shutting the system down.

00:44:49.920 And so it's almost like you're not consciously thinking about it.

00:44:53.460 It just starts incessantly coming.

00:44:56.180 And it is often with sleep deprivation, stress.

00:44:59.920 Um, and sometimes like you were saying earlier, it, it just comes out of the blue.

00:45:04.020 Sometimes you wake up and you're thinking, this is a great day.

00:45:06.040 And then two hours later, you're like, I wish I never woke up and, and you, you have to learn to live with that a little bit.

00:45:16.120 For me, there's, there's, there are relief.

00:45:18.720 Um, I've done four years of ketamine IVs, which have done more good for me and, and changing those pathways than anything, but it still comes.

00:45:30.000 And, and knowing, knowing you don't have to act on it, um, creating that foundation where suicide isn't the answer, whether your brain is telling you it is or not, is so important.

00:45:43.560 And then kind of working from there.

00:45:45.980 And do I have, I have meds.

00:45:47.760 So when it gets really bad, um, uh, just, just recently, a couple of weeks ago, I'm trying to find more stability.

00:45:54.100 And so I'm, I'm taking some different meds than I've taken before and I'm not doing ketamine currently.

00:45:59.200 And so I'm trying to find more capacity.

00:46:02.520 And there's always this, like, do I be grateful that I'm depressed, but not suicidal, but can't function well, or do I like push for more?

00:46:09.580 And there's always this balance of being grateful for what you have, but also wanting to, to grow.

00:46:15.200 And so I tried a med combination that sent me through the roof.

00:46:20.140 Like I was agitated mania.

00:46:24.400 So that, that, yeah.

00:46:26.320 And, um, all of a sudden I'm thinking, oh, I'm back where I was and I don't like this.

00:46:33.560 And, um, and so I, I went and binge ate and I'd been like 70 bucks on food, buying like a bunch of different food and ate and tried to soothe myself.

00:46:42.420 And then I came home and was like, Hey, this isn't gonna, what we don't want to do is go self harm or go attempt.

00:46:49.540 So what do we do?

00:46:50.660 So I came home, I used kind of code words.

00:46:53.860 I told Tiana, this is where I'm at.

00:46:55.820 I need to go take some meds that I have learned over time will sedate me.

00:46:59.920 And they're, they're sublingual.

00:47:01.320 So they'll work within 20 to 30 minutes, but I'll be out for 18 hours.

00:47:06.880 And that's a big ask of her.

00:47:08.700 Right.

00:47:09.000 And she didn't see it coming and I didn't see it coming.

00:47:11.240 And all of a sudden we're like, Hey, guess what?

00:47:12.860 You need to clear your table for the next two days and do everything.

00:47:15.820 And, and, and luckily I've found that that works and it can be helpful, but you know, every time is different.

00:47:22.660 And then there's other times where you just, you try to distract, you try to just get sleep and get to bed eventually.

00:47:29.220 But there's times where I have my kids and I can't take meds and I'm ideating.

00:47:35.060 And so I'll call a neighbor and say, can you take, take my little ones for an hour?

00:47:40.120 Or because I can't deal with the emotional stimulus and just have a little bit of a reprieve and, and you, you just find different tools.

00:47:49.140 But the most important thing is, is realizing that this is kind of a, a symptom and it's not, it's not the truth.

00:47:58.220 And that you still, I try to tell people all the time, there's always a balance between understanding the validity of the illness, that it is a real illness and disorder that you can't control.

00:48:08.920 But there's always some circle of influence that you can control.

00:48:13.320 And sometimes it's as simple as sleeping, medicating, and, and, um, you know, exercise if you can't even do that and, and, and just staying alive through the day.

00:48:25.100 Like that's as far as it gets in other days, it is more, more than that, but just helping people understand, focus on what you can influence to get through the day and hope tomorrow's very AA in a way.

00:48:38.920 Yeah.

00:48:39.320 Yeah.

00:48:39.620 Is it one day at a time?

00:48:40.660 Yeah.

00:48:41.040 One day at a time.

00:48:41.760 One day at a time.

00:48:42.240 So talk to me about ideation.

00:48:43.980 Cause he, he was expressing it from his point of view.

00:48:49.620 Let me talk to you about, um, when, when you say, I, you know, I'm depressed or I have somebody, the first question is, have you planned a way to do it?

00:49:01.180 Yeah.

00:49:01.720 Why is that so important?

00:49:02.980 And, well, so he was talking about like the drowning, your mind is telling you to abort.

00:49:08.340 When you think of like, our natural human instinct is to be, is to survive, is to be alive.

00:49:15.380 So you're overcoming that natural, like defense mechanism.

00:49:18.680 When you're at that point, like we were saying before, our thoughts are really no longer rational.

00:49:27.140 And we're in this place where our mind is like, our brain is literally trying to kill us.

00:49:33.220 And it feels like we're in this, I often will tell patients, you're like in a tornado.

00:49:38.280 Like you can't see the rainbow.

00:49:40.120 The storm will end.

00:49:41.880 The tornado will finally pass.

00:49:44.140 But all you see is just debris flying everywhere.

00:49:47.240 And you're right there in the middle of it.

00:49:50.160 No way out.

00:49:50.960 And no way out.

00:49:52.120 And it doesn't, you know, someone posted on Instagram recently, like suicidal doesn't have a face.

00:49:57.400 It really doesn't.

00:49:58.380 Like you could be having a great time with your family in the morning and be attempting suicide at, at night.

00:50:07.480 And so suicidal ideation is really serious because you've overcome that natural defense mechanism of survival.

00:50:16.440 And that takes, that's extreme like thought.

00:50:22.480 And, and it's too much for, I tell my patients, that's too much for one person to bear on their shoulders alone.

00:50:30.840 And so my advice is always to the patient, the person suffering is you have to reach out.

00:50:37.300 And sometimes all it can be is a code word or, you know, just, I need help.

00:50:44.880 And then for somebody who's the caregiver, the loved one, you know, the first thing you want to do is validate.

00:50:51.680 You don't want to say, oh, but your life is so wonderful.

00:50:55.160 You know, you have this.

00:50:55.740 Why don't you want to do that?

00:50:57.020 Well, it really, it negates their feelings and their thoughts.

00:51:03.520 And, and it, for me, and I don't know, I'd be interested to hear from you.

00:51:10.040 For me, when people said, you know, just pull yourself up and just get going.

00:51:13.700 You've got so much to live for.

00:51:14.740 But it, it, it, I remember just feeling, really, you don't think I thought of that.

00:51:23.400 Yeah.

00:51:24.560 Yeah.

00:51:25.040 Can I speak to that a little bit?

00:51:26.580 Um, so I have a, my oldest son's middle name is rich and he's named after a doctor that helped save my life.

00:51:34.840 And I sat in his office after the first suicide attempt, probably a few months later, uh, dejected and, you know, had my hoodie on all the cliche, like staring at the ground.

00:51:44.600 I was a shell of who I am.

00:51:46.200 And, and he kept trying to tell me, we can try this med or we can try this med and dah, dah, dah, dah.

00:51:51.020 And he just stopped in the middle of a sentence one.

00:51:53.520 And he just looked at me and, um, he gave me, I won't go into details of what he said, but he pretty much said, I see you're trying everything you can.

00:52:05.160 And he gave me permission to suffer and to, to look at those as options, like to think maybe there isn't an option.

00:52:13.640 And it, it was so validating because here I was the same kid that had the straight A's at school before.

00:52:23.020 Um, it was just a set of different set of circumstances.

00:52:26.100 And you would think that a doctor would say, this is, you know, a layman doctor would say, don't, don't say there may not be an answer here.

00:52:33.700 Yeah.

00:52:34.500 And that's what I needed.

00:52:35.600 I need someone to look at me and say, I see how hard you're trying.

00:52:39.840 And I frankly don't know if I can help you, but I want to.

00:52:42.920 And I was like, okay, let's try something else.

00:52:47.260 And, and I'm not saying it changed everything overnight, but it was the first time sometimes our support systems, especially if they don't understand mental health, they try to fix us because they love us.

00:53:00.160 And they also try to fix us because it's hard for them and they don't want to see us suffering.

00:53:04.940 Right.

00:53:05.500 And they don't want to suffer.

00:53:06.660 And if you can get outside of that and, and walk the journey with the person and meet them where they are, and it doesn't have to be the same person for, it's not always a parent.

00:53:18.400 It can be different people.

00:53:20.420 Um, that meant so much to me that I named my firstborn son, which I only thought I was going to have one named him after that doctor because he saved my life.

00:53:28.720 Well, and, and truthfully, when people are having suicidal ideation, they don't want to die.

00:53:35.920 They want relief.

00:53:37.180 They're in such despair.

00:53:39.380 They want someone to like, to reach out to you, to listen to like.

00:53:44.780 You want it to stop.

00:53:46.540 Yeah.

00:53:46.900 You just want it to stop.

00:53:48.000 You want it to stop.

00:53:48.980 So, um, you said ketamine.

00:53:53.000 Yeah.

00:53:54.120 Um, I mean, you've tried, I'm sure you tried everything.

00:53:58.760 I lucky I, a couple of different things.

00:54:01.840 And I was, I mean, I woke up, I felt like, I remember looking at myself in the mirror saying, where have you been?

00:54:09.700 You know, it was just like, it was like, not me.

00:54:13.900 It was weird.

00:54:14.920 Um, but they've tried everything with you.

00:54:20.060 How common is this kind of depression?

00:54:24.600 Not as common.

00:54:25.840 Not as common.

00:54:26.380 Yeah.

00:54:27.020 Yeah.

00:54:29.120 And bipolar disorder is a little trickier because you're managing both mood states.

00:54:34.180 You're managing the mania and you're also managing depression.

00:54:38.780 When you feel good, it's got to be hard to go.

00:54:42.860 This danger. 0.98

00:54:43.380 I mean, yeah, I I've learned a lot from making some stupid choices when I feel good, but there's always a balance. 0.97

00:54:53.640 Um, sometimes I'm not very productive because when you feel really down for a long time and you feel really good, you're just like, I want to bask in it. 0.96

00:55:01.020 I just want to sit in it and I don't want to really do anything.

00:55:04.400 I just want to enjoy it.

00:55:06.480 And, um, and, and then that must be hard for you in a way, because for a while until it gets really bad, you have your husband and he's feeling good.

00:55:16.440 Yeah.

00:55:17.220 He's, he's superhuman when he feels good.

00:55:20.300 Or sometimes I'll be like, yeah, like here's the list of everything to do.

00:55:24.260 Like, come on, you feel good.

00:55:25.060 Let's get it done.

00:55:25.680 But he, but you know, I do understand when he says that, like, I, I felt so bad for like two weeks.

00:55:31.960 I just want to enjoy connecting with my family. 0.97

00:55:35.340 And the two, the two hardest, speaking to bipolar, just quickly, the two hardest places are when you go from feeling really good to crashing, because no matter how many times you've done it, that contrast really bites you in the butt. 0.95

00:55:50.700 I mean, you just cringe and you're just like, why did I get, why was I so dumb when I was feeling good? 0.94

00:55:58.260 Like, why didn't I see this coming?

00:56:00.180 And so in some ways I keep that in the back of my head now.

00:56:03.420 Um, the other is when you get in a mixed state where you feel depressed, but have a lot of energy because you're impulsive and that's when you're, you're in danger of, of acting on it.

00:56:13.180 When you're really depressed, you're like, yeah, I feel like dying, but I can't be bothered to get out of bed.

00:56:18.500 I mean, I'm, I'm general that everyone's different, but sometimes you're like, yeah, I can't, I can't do it when you're in a mixed state. 1.00

00:56:25.260 It's, it's a very scary place.

00:56:26.700 So any, anytime you can do anything, whether meds or psychologically or therapeutically to kind of mitigate the highs and lows, kind of stay in the middle a little more and not act out on the highs and lows.

00:56:42.240 The, the, the more stability, what I found in time is what I really crave is stability.

00:56:47.360 What I really crave is connecting with my children and not being in bed all day.

00:56:51.640 And so I will forego some of the euphoria to stay in that place longer.

00:56:57.120 And that as maturity, as I've grown older.

00:57:00.120 I was going to say that's maturity.

00:57:01.120 Yeah.

00:57:01.360 That, that creates a lot of perspective.

00:57:02.980 That's really helpful.

00:57:04.580 Medication, EMDR.

00:57:06.400 You have tried, um, music.

00:57:10.680 You said music helps you?

00:57:13.000 It's a therapeutic technique.

00:57:14.440 You know, I have a hypomanic playlist.

00:57:16.640 I have a depressing playlist.

00:57:18.580 I have.

00:57:18.880 Is there a, is there a playlist that he clicks on?

00:57:21.000 You're like, oh.

00:57:23.260 Yeah, there is.

00:57:24.160 There is.

00:57:25.120 Okay.

00:57:25.480 Yeah.

00:57:26.460 Um, and, and what else is, what else is there for treatment?

00:57:32.480 What else can you do?

00:57:33.600 So therapy, I mean, medication, therapy, having those both together is, they work synergistically.

00:57:42.780 So is it different for therapy because you are like the quintessential chemically depressed guy?

00:57:51.780 You know what I mean?

00:57:52.560 Your chemicals are all over the place.

00:57:54.900 But there is also chemical depression that is kicked off because you've got something happening in your life and you spiral out.

00:58:04.920 Right.

00:58:05.140 And that happens to people and they eventually come back out.

00:58:08.580 Right.

00:58:09.260 So therapy for you, I would imagine is much different than the therapy for everyone else.

00:58:15.260 But therapy for you, I would imagine is more of, okay, here are the, the mile markers and how to deal with the mile markers and, and judge yourself and judge reality.

00:58:27.440 Am I wrong?

00:58:29.120 I think it's, I think there's a lot of therapy that kind of helps across the board with all like mental health issues.

00:58:37.680 And especially like when it comes to like self-worth and some of the trauma that maybe you've experienced and, you know, therapy is all about kind of retraining those pathways, those connections that we've made.

00:58:48.680 When we get triggered by like trauma or whatever trigger we may have, then we, we, our brain kind of goes down it, whether it's adaptive, meaning like a positive connection we've made or like maladaptive where it's not helpful to us and it will go there.

00:59:04.920 So in therapy, you're retraining those maladaptive connections.

00:59:08.060 Which is, which is what EMDR does.

00:59:10.180 I think it's, it, when, by moving your eyes, if I'm not mistaken, it, it re, when you have a tragedy or something.

00:59:18.240 Your brain can't deal with it.

00:59:20.160 So it misfiles it all over, you know, and puts pieces of it in different file cabinets.

00:59:25.620 So when you see something, all of a sudden that file cabinet is opened up and that shouldn't, that fear or that memory or that feeling that you had from that comes out of that file cabinet and you don't know necessarily why.

00:59:39.120 Is that right?

00:59:39.700 Yes.

00:59:39.980 Or how to stop it.

00:59:41.180 Yeah.

00:59:41.460 Yeah.

00:59:41.840 Yeah.

00:59:41.980 Yeah.

00:59:42.560 Yeah.

00:59:42.660 Um, it is clear to me, well, have you speak on it?

00:59:52.600 Would you be here if God, if you didn't have God in your life?

00:59:56.580 No, not at all.

00:59:58.440 Um, I want to say like, I think sometimes we look at Christ, right?

01:00:03.520 As this, and God, it can be different to different people, but for me, Christ is important.

01:00:07.960 And, and we look at this perfect person or this, this ideal, um, I think it's important to look at Christ and, you know, he said, father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me.

01:00:19.980 He said, my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?

01:00:23.640 In a time of desperation, he said, then saith unto them, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death.

01:00:30.420 Terry, you hear, watch with me.

01:00:32.200 Those are Christ.

01:00:34.700 So when we're feeling those same things, we're not abandoned.

01:00:40.080 Maybe we're right where we need to be.

01:00:42.360 Maybe we're on the path of discipleship and coming to know our savior.

01:00:48.340 And, and what we do after that is what matters.

01:00:54.360 God for you.

01:00:55.380 Um, it, it has meant everything in my life and my relationship and how I, I guess, care like for Aaron or just how we operate in our relationship.

01:01:09.420 Um, I don't know that we would still be here together without God.

01:01:14.640 I have to tell you, I think the most important thing you said was you saw him, I'm paraphrasing, but you saw him for who he really was.

01:01:25.740 Yeah.

01:01:26.160 That's hard to do.

01:01:27.880 I think impossible probably without God.

01:01:30.180 But when you recognize who that person really is, that's what, that's when you can love your, even your enemies.

01:01:41.020 Yeah.

01:01:41.280 Cause you can see, Ooh, there's so much pain in there, you know, could, could I ask both of you to do one thing?

01:01:49.280 I want you to look into that camera and you look into that camera, you start and talk to someone who is going through it with someone else and talk to them.

01:02:00.180 Um, well, first off, I want to say, you know, I see you, I see you as the caregiver.

01:02:09.240 Um, sometimes that can get like overshadowed because if you have a loved one that's suffering so much, um, you kind of feel like you have to juggle all the balls and hold everything together and be the strong one.

01:02:22.380 And so, um, I want you to know that, that I see you and I see your pain and your suffering in a different way.

01:02:30.620 Um, and I, I guess I want you to remember that, that you were loved by your, by God and that, um, you have a village around you.

01:02:44.260 And even though this illness can feel so isolating, even as a caregiver of a loved one suffering, that, um, it's so important to know that when to reach out and to be open, to ask for help so that you can get what you need to fill your cup and then be able to be there more for, um, the person that you love that's going through this.

01:03:07.520 So before you speak, I think the most important thing you said that I heard was once you're open, once you're willing to share things change.

01:03:25.080 And I know this as an alcoholic, everybody, when I was growing up, I was, you don't talk about being alcoholic and I really didn't care.

01:03:34.700 I had nothing to lose.

01:03:36.320 Um, and I started talking about it and sharing things and so many people would come up and they would whisper to me, you know, thank you for saying that because I felt that way or I did this.

01:03:50.920 And I realized we all are the same.

01:03:54.180 We all are going through something and it only changes when we talk to each other.

01:04:01.100 So you look into this, Cameron, speak to them.

01:04:08.720 I hope anyone out there suffering knows.

01:04:13.560 I've been where you are and I love you for your resilience.

01:04:19.780 It takes courage to get out of bed, takes courage to get up and be a part of this world.

01:04:26.240 Even when you feel like there's not much for you.

01:04:31.500 I went to that, that place where I thought there was nothing and I've now lived 10 years since then or more have three beautiful children and a wife who loves me.

01:04:42.320 And I have purpose and hope it's not perfect, but it's worth it.

01:04:47.400 Um, my message to people is, I hope you'll raise your voice, whatever level you can.

01:04:54.520 I know everyone can't shout it from the rooftops, but I hope that the message, sometimes in our society, we see so many people lose their battle to suicide.

01:05:04.160 And there's a place for that.

01:05:06.340 We need to respect and honor those people.

01:05:10.260 But what we really need is the people who are struggling to live, who are choosing to find hope, to stand up and tell people, I'm struggling, but I want to live.

01:05:22.400 I want to find purpose.

01:05:23.720 I want to find reason.

01:05:24.860 Those are the people that will help those of us who are struggling.

01:05:29.360 Those are my heroes.

01:05:31.120 And I hope you'll continue to fight day by day, one step at a time and be patient with yourself on that journey.

01:05:39.220 And a final message from me.

01:05:42.340 If you don't find yourself in a situation of either of these two, you might.

01:05:47.820 But, you know, somebody who is going through this, um, it is worth it and it may not seem it, but it is so worth it.

01:06:03.760 Please pass this on to somebody else who needs that message.

01:06:10.320 Good night.

01:06:11.120 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

The Glenn Beck Program - April 15, 2023

Ep 181 ｜ 'I Want to Live'： A Radically Honest Conversation About Surviving Depression ｜ Aaron and Teana Elmer ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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