Ep 223 ｜ What Nuclear War Under Joe Biden Would Look Like ｜ Annie Jacobsen ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast
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Summary
If there were a nuclear attack on the United States, the fate of humanity would change in a second. Within minutes, mutually assured destruction would demand global wreckage. And within just a few minutes, we could be facing a nuclear winter that would last years. Does deterrence protect us from this? It s a pretty dark future. As my guest suggests, it s merely a psychological phenomenon without any real promise of protection.
Transcript
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If there were a nuclear attack on the United States, the fate of humanity would change in a second.
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Within minutes, mutually assured destruction would demand global wreckage.
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And within just a few minutes, we could be facing a nuclear winter that would last years.
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As my next guest suggests, it's merely a psychological phenomenon without any real promise of protection.
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Can American, Americans, and America trust other nations with nuclear weapons?
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My guest today is one of my favorite people, a world-class journalist, Pulitzer Prize finalist, best-selling author.
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She is fascinated, strangely, in the same things I am.
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She goes in-depth in investigation, takes her sometimes years to do, into the most secret crevices of American history.
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She's here to talk to us about a couple of things, but first, what really happens in a nuclear war.
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Please welcome today's guest on the podcast, Annie Jacobson.
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Annie, I am so thrilled to have you on the show.
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You don't know this, but you are greatly affecting my thinking on a few things.
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And I have been really struggling with a few topics.
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You just seem to be interested in many of the same things that I am.
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And I want to talk about three books that you have written.
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But I want to start with your latest book, Nuclear War, which, quite honestly, it did not make me popular with my wife.
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Because I would be reading and go, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
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Stop reading these books about nuclear annihilation.
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How did you, and why did you select this topic?
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First of all, thank you for having me on the show.
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And if you're familiar with my other books, as you are, as you mentioned two of them that we might get into,
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you know that I write about war and weapons and national security and secrets.
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And in every one of the previous six books I have written that covers the Pentagon, the CIA, various military operations,
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all the wars America has fought since and including World War II.
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How many of them have said to me, with kind of a sense of pride, national pride,
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Annie, I have done what I have done to prevent nuclear World War III.
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And so, during the previous administration, fire and fury rhetoric, COVID, a little bit of extra time,
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I began to wonder, wait a minute, what would happen if deterrence, that idea of prevention,
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that all of these sources had been telling me about going back 15 years now,
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I wanted to specifically demonstrate for readers what happens.
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Not how it happens, not why it happens, but what happens.
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It is one of the most terrifying journeys and so well written.
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You know, you're writing it second by second, minute by minute.
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And you're going into things that, I mean, there's a couple of things in there you say,
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like, only one person has talked about that, and it's with me.
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You're revealing some things in there that are truly remarkable.
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You know, Gorbachev and Reagan, they're both gone now, and that's a lost era.
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But I think they both came to the same conclusion, you talk about it, they both came to the same
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conclusion that this is madness, and it can never, ever be fought.
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But for the first time in my lifetime since, you know, that discovery from Reagan and Gorbachev,
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we're now talking about it as if it could be won.
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Well, you've hit upon an important point, certainly for me.
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When I was really doing the heavy reporting on this book, doing these intense interviews
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with people like former secretaries of defense, former STRATCOM director,
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former commander of the U.S. nuclear sub-forces.
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This was during COVID when people had a little more time on their hands, perhaps,
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And what was often said to me by many of these individuals who are Cold War warriors,
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so who sort of were in the highest ranking positions you're talking about in the 80s and the 90s
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and the early 2000s, some later, they said to me that part of the reason why they were willing
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to speak to me about the horrors of what it would look like if nuclear war happened was because
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Former SACDF Leon Panetta said to me that it was good that I was doing this because the
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American people needed to know, as if we'd all forgotten.
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Who would have possibly imagined in the worst way that when the book would publish, it published
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four months ago, we would be in the middle of this rising rhetoric and also presidential
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insecurity, world leader insecurity, people not behaving like they are in command and control.
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And so that reveals, I believe, an even more perilous nature of this premise of deterrence that
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we spoke about earlier, this idea that, oh, deterrence will hold.
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We'll just have a bunch of nuclear weapons pointed at everyone and no one would be insane enough
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I think I got this from you, but I can't remember.
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The idea that everyone's back is up against a wall now, Putin can't lose, we can't back
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So all of these, all of these major countries, China, the same, none of them can walk away
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a loser, and that just ratchets this kind of stuff up to beyond reason.
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But do these players, do these players actually believe that they can win?
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One of the most remarkable reveals that I learned in reporting the book was how unaware
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world leaders are as to the realities of nuclear war.
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And at least that can be said about individuals, presidents of the United States, and that is
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Meaning, you know, I think it was Bill Perry, another former secretary of defense, who said
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to me, you know, most come into office unprepared.
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So again, it reinforces this idea that we'll never have a nuclear war.
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I have so many other things to worry about at home and abroad, so let me just focus on
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those things, including my popularity, at the expense of this existential threat that
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And so for that specific reason, in reporting the book, I wanted to take the reader from
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Take them in seconds and minutes, as you say, not bring them, not offer up my opinion or
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even the opinion of wise analysts about how this could happen or how leaders might feel
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And I hope that all of the leaders around the world read this book and realize that's
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the most, you've hit upon the most important quote, by the way, Reagan and Gorbachev, nuclear
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I, in reading this, I have shared it with so many people.
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And the people that I, uh, that I take seriously, um, and the people that I think, uh, are up
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to speed and are awake on what we might be facing.
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I'll say, have you read Annie J and they'll stop me.
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Um, but there's so many people that haven't read it that should.
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And it goes to the point, you know, when I saw the moment in the debate where, um, uh,
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Joe Biden, and I, I, I'm, I do not say this as a partisan, everybody was, everybody came
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out of that worried about, oh my gosh, how could he run for, you know, uh, and win against
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And all I heard in my head was most presidents are not prepared.
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And when I'm listening to that section of when they're bringing the black book of death
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out and the decisions that he and he alone has to make, I thought I wouldn't be prepared
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for, nobody would be perfect prepared for that.
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Can you explain what the president has to decide and how he really cannot get advice from, from
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And, you know, Glenn, it's like the, a few basics are really important, I think for listeners
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And you and I know this, you know, me having reported the book, you read it, you learn really
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quickly, the, one of the most significant hallmarks of nuclear war is that when the missile launches,
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And when it launches, it takes approximately 30 minutes to get from one continent to the
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And the ICBM cannot be redirected or cannot be recalled.
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Then you also have to consider that built into the rubric of nuclear war planning is the concept
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that we must launch our nuclear weapons before they hit the United States.
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And that is why a policy called launch on warning exists, which is exactly like it sounds.
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The president must launch when he gets a warning that a strategic ballistic missile is en route
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Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Annie, how could, because you talk about this in the book,
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We have no idea if it even has a nuclear warhead in it.
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It, it may, it may just be a dud that never had, if we launch, then we're first strike.
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How do you make that decision to launch before it hits a city?
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Couple clarifications there that are important.
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For starters, we do know where the missile is coming from because we have satellite systems
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So we can see it launch in under a fraction, in under one second.
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We have, we have satellites parked over our nuclear armed adversaries.
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So the system is set up to be alerted immediately.
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And then what I learned from reporting the book and speaking to individuals in the military
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who are inside those bunkers that are receiving the data as it comes from the satellite system
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down to earth in these bunkers across the United States as part of nuclear command and control.
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within 100 seconds, they know the trajectory of the ballistic missile.
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They know if it's coming for the United, at the United States, they can tell within 15
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And so imagine those 100 seconds in that command and control bunker.
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Once they know, once they know it's coming to the, and then they discern San Francisco
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versus East coast, rather West coast, East coast.
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Once they know it's coming to the East coast, the president is being notified immediately.
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And then you begin to see that this is a system of systems.
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It is a sequence of events that is pre-programmed to occur.
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And that is why to answer your question, the president has six minutes to decide because
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once he's notified that you're already, you know, let's say between five and eight minutes
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into the 30 minute delivery of that nuclear weapon.
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But what is, you also raise another important point, which is what's in the warhead and you
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And that is another flaw that there, we do not know, we will not know we being the defense
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department will not know what's in that warhead until it strikes the United States.
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But as one advisor tells the president, no one would be insane enough to send a ballistic
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If they did not assume they were going to be counterattacked with a mother load of nuclear
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This gets us into that paradox of deterrence, which is madness.
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First, it's enough to struggle just to live our lives and try to keep tyranny at bay every
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day without also having to deal with pain on a regular basis.
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And yet our bodies don't give us much of a choice.
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Our biggest cause of our pain is inflammation in our joints.
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I have to tell you, my wife told me, I'm not going to listen to you whining anymore unless
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And I said, honey, I've been to the best doctors in the world.
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I got my life back and you could get yours back too.
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Take as directed and see if you don't see a difference in your life.
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So take us to the point to where those six minutes are happening and the president now
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knows it's heading for us and he has to begin to make decisions.
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Who is with the football besides the president?
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The president of the United States has what is called sole presidential authority.
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That means he asks permission of no one to launch nuclear weapons, which he is required
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He doesn't ask permission of the secretary of defense, not the chairman of the joint chiefs
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And so he may turn to his sec def, he may turn to the chairman of the joint chiefs of
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staff who would almost certainly be on comms, and he may ask them, what do I do?
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And that is why the decisions handbook inside the nuclear football is so important.
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It comes down to one man, you hope he has his marbles, and a list in front of him of counter-strike
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options that have been pared down by a group of individuals at the defense department for
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him to make this choice that he is being pressured to make in the next six minutes.
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So, um, they can advise, but they cannot, they cannot, he can't say, what, what, what should
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They're, they're bound constitutionally not to tell him what he should do.
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Yes, they cannot order him what to do, which is really remarkable.
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And so on the flip side of that, he can just, he has what's called authority, but he can and
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And that was conveyed to me by two secretaries of defense.
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So another important thing to consider when you're considering who the president is choosing
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as his sec def, but no, the responsibility is his alone.
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So who stops a president that just goes nuts and says, you know what?
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Who has the authority to stop him if that would happen?
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There's a story of Richard Nixon sort of drunk in the last days of office, threatening nuclear
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And there's a story of Henry Kissinger calling up the Pentagon and saying, no one take orders
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from the president without talking to me first.
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I didn't hear that from Henry Kissinger himself.
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But what we do know is that this decision must be made in this, with this incredible pressure
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cooker of time and that a situation happens called jamming the president, which is when
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most of the military is really pressuring the president to make a decision about the number
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of weapons he is going to use in the counterstrike, which targets to hit.
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This will kill millions, if not tens of millions of people.
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The president can barely be aware of this because he's reading what was described as a Denny's
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So, this is, is this called the Black Book of Death?
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And the, uh, Dr. Glenn McDuff, who's a weapons designer at Los Alamos and also the historian
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at the classified museum there told me the reason it was called the Black Book was because
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And he has to look at it and then who plays like the actuary role that when he picks everything
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from the menu, then in your book, you describe that somebody has to now calculate how many
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And if that crosses over into anybody's border, who does that?
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Those are all decisions that are happening really fast.
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What we learn is that at the same time that the president has that Decisions Handbook,
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the Black Book he's looking at with the mill aid, holding it in front of him, there is an
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identical copy of that book at the Stratcom bunker in Nebraska.
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So, for listeners, really quick, there are three bunkers that are going to be at play.
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There's the military bunker beneath the Pentagon.
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There's one beneath, off at Air Force Base in Nebraska, that's the Stratcom bunker, U.S.
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And then there's the bunker inside of Cheyenne Mountain.
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They were referred to me as like, the brain is the Cheyenne Mountain.
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And that what happens at the Pentagon is the beating heart of nuclear war.
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And those three command centers are all working together on comms to get this order from the
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president, because then the weapons must be launched by the Stratcom commander out of that
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And by the way, Glenn, you and I both know we're only in the first few minutes of the scenario
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This is where the decision trees start to go bananas, because you have the Secret Service
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They want to move the president out of Washington, D.C.
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And you have the Stratcom commander that has to get on the doomsday plane, because he's got
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to get up into the air so that he can order further nuclear strikes as America is obliterated
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So the scene that you paint of the, I don't know if I would call it chaos, the orchestrated
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or controlled chaos that it would be is phenomenal.
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And then when he picks certain targets, it might kill so many Chinese over the border.
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We have to, if we are going to send missiles, we have to send them over the polar cap, which
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The right people don't get in touch with each other.
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And why don't we have that system now with all countries that have nuclear weapons?
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And of course, you're asking basic questions that I myself wonder, and I hope every person
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When you move through the second by second and the minute by minute reporting this, as I did,
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learning from different individuals who are inside the nuclear command and control who
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can answer those questions that you really can't even comprehend until you start doing
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what I did, which is following the decision tree process.
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It was remarkable, as I was learning this, to realize that there is an egregious problem
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I mean, imagine if the, as the president makes his decision from the decisions book, I'm going
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Somebody has to quickly brief him if he asks on how many people it might kill.
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It's also a weather officer involved who may pipe up and say it would, you know, the fallout
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Certainly, if the president asks, let's say there's a national security advisor in the
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room who's really knowledgeable about China, who's concerned how China might react if the
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counterattack is to North Korea, we begin to see all the errors.
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But you have pointed out one of the most important ones that is just astonishing to everyone, which
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is that U.S. ICBMs do not have enough range to target North Korea without overflying Russia.
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And so imagine, just think about where we are today.
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The president of the United States has not spoken to the president of Russia in more than
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General Milley couldn't get his counterpart on the phone, General Milley, the former chairman
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of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, when it was erroneously reported by the AP back in, you know,
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the early days of the Ukraine war, an erroneous report that a missile, a Russian missile, had
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That's an Article 5 NATO conflagration potential.
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Milley couldn't get his Russian counterpart on the phone for at least 24 hours.
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The ability for a leader to just pick up the phone and get his counterpart is in 2024 fantasy.
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How is that possible when I can see what's happening on the other side of the world?
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How is it that the rational nations have not said, I'm going to hire one guy, one team that
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will rotate out, be with him with the football or whatever, 24 hours a day.
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And with that is a phone where I can call China, Russia, North Korea, America, anybody, Israel,
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anybody who has them, Pakistan, I need to get them on the phone.
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How could we possibly have this system in today's world with our technology and not be able to
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get the leader of the country that we think is bombing us or that we have to fly over or
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And this is where we come to the, like sort of the, we really have to talk about concepts
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of like rationality because technically you could, you and I, I could Skype someone in
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Moscow in a moment with or without the, you know, technical problems that I sometimes have.
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But what we're talking, the reason why these leaders can't communicate with one another
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has to do with enmity, has to do with hostility.
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And it has to do with seeing someone else as the enemy as opposed to the adversary, which
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brings us back to the only ray of hope in all of this, which is the Reagan-Gorbachev
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When you saw two world leaders whose countries had for decades seen one another as the arch rival,
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And then suddenly there was a moment of sanity where the two parties came together as adversaries
00:29:09.800
or as opponents at so much more realistic and far less dangerous in the world in which
00:29:19.040
we live is to be able to see people in opposition as opposed to an enemy you need to kill.
00:29:25.880
Um, I talked to an expert, uh, on nuclear war, supposedly, um, right after 9-11 and I was
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living in New York and I said, what could these missiles do?
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And I didn't get the same kind of, uh, uh, answer that your book gave me.
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What I got was most people will be surprised that they live through it.
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That, uh, I, cause I, I, I was saying, I don't want to live through that.
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Uh, if it's an all out nuclear war, there's nothing left.
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Yes. Um, just a quick thought on what other people tell you. I have noticed recently so
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many, you know, false positives of what people say can happen coming from really high ranking
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individuals on both sides of, you know, the presidential candidates, shall we say. And one
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comes to mind, I saw one of Trump's former national security advisors doing a big conference. This is
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after, um, there was, you know, the whole uproar about president Biden's cognition. And he was
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talking about how he had war gamed through nuclear war scenarios that take place. Um, he was talking
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about how, you know, the president has to make a decision in hours and, you know, from my book,
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that's not true. And so, and I've also, you know, I cannot tell you how many people have said to me
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before the book published, and these are knowledgeable people that are not specifically
00:31:16.040
in command and control have said, Oh, Annie, we have an interceptor program that would take care of
00:31:22.120
that. Or you hear now, Oh, we have an iron door. This is not, this is not accurate. We have 44
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interceptor missiles. The Russians have that part of your book is a part.
00:31:34.800
Oh, your book is so terrifying because there's two things that we have. And we, we don't have
00:31:40.060
any hardening to speak of for EMP. And we don't have, we have, what'd you say? 41, um, interceptors.
00:31:50.320
When you take the reader through that part of the book, you're like, I, I mean, I've been living
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inside of a lie to make me, to make it, uh, possible for me to sleep at night. But that this,
00:32:07.940
none of this is, is happening. None, none, nobody's taking this seriously.
00:32:13.900
So take us back again to what it, what, what happens at the end? Cause I want to move on to
00:32:19.420
a couple of other, other books and we're going to run out of time.
00:32:24.100
So nuclear winter is what happens. And like everything in the book, readers can be reading
00:32:32.420
about what I'm writing and then they can go back into the note section. If they want to understand
00:32:38.680
where did she get this information? Because it's not from Annie Jacobson's imagination.
00:32:43.460
Tragically, this is science fact, not science fiction. For the nuclear winter section, I was
00:32:52.000
able to interview professor Brian Toon, who is one of the original five authors on the nuclear winter
00:32:59.480
theory that Carl Sagan is so famous for. But in fact, there were five of them. Toon was the young
00:33:06.160
student of Sagan at the time. And he spent decades since. Interestingly, so nuclear winter is exactly
00:33:13.320
like it sounds like the sun blots out from 330 billion pounds of soot that gets lofted into the
00:33:25.320
atmosphere from the result of all the nuclear weapons and the mega fires and the cyclones of fire that
00:33:33.020
they produce and the forest burning and the nuclear power plants melting and the heat bogs on fire.
00:33:42.280
The pyrotoxins, the cities, it just all lofts into the troposphere and it blots out the sun.
00:33:51.080
And the original idea, because the computer modeling was not anything near what it is today when the
00:33:58.180
paper came out in 1983, the original idea was this could last for a year or so. And now state-of-the-art
00:34:05.200
climate modeling shows it could last for seven, eight, maybe even 10 years. Seventy percent reduction
00:34:13.280
in some. The temperature of the earth falls something like 37 degrees. Large bodies of water from
00:34:22.060
Iowa to Ukraine in the mid-latitudes of the globe just get frozen over. And that is the death of
00:34:30.120
agriculture. And without food, five billion people will die in total, according to these models.
00:34:38.920
Never mind, we haven't gotten into the radiation poisoning and the pathogens and the return of
00:34:44.040
plague. And so man returns to his hunter-gatherer state. And, you know, the most haunting quote in all
00:34:52.280
of this, when I think about nuclear winter, and you think about the survivors, is the quote from Nikita
00:34:58.280
Khrushchev, when he wrote to Kennedy and he said, after a nuclear war, the survivors would envy the dead.
00:35:08.680
Okay, final moments with Annie Jacobson in just a second. First, let me tell you about Berna. B-Y-R-N-A.
00:35:17.320
Most self-defense situations can be handled with a gun, but that doesn't mean they all should be handled
00:35:22.360
with a gun. I believe wholeheartedly in the Second Amendment, but I also believe in the power of having
00:35:27.960
options because I know I'll be held responsible, not just on this citizenship, but my first citizenship
00:35:33.720
as well. They have to be threatening my life and the life of my family and my children. And sometimes
00:35:41.720
it doesn't take lethal force. That's where the Berna launcher comes in. I have it. My team has it.
00:35:48.120
It's a great complement to our firearms because there are situations where less lethal is the
00:35:53.800
way to go. And Berna is the best alternative to deadly force. It fires powerful deterrents like
00:35:59.640
tear gas and kinetic rounds. All the things that could incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes.
00:36:06.400
Governments and agencies and police are all using this now. They're getting rid of their taser and
00:36:11.880
they're replacing it with a Berna launcher. Have a choice. I want you to go to Berna.com right now.
00:36:18.120
Berna.com slash Glenn. Get a 10% discount right now. Berna.com slash Glenn.
00:36:25.560
Thank you for all of your hard work on this subject. It was very eye-opening and I have urged over and
00:36:33.980
over again my listeners to read your book because it's a get sober quick kind of call on what we're
00:36:47.100
dealing with. So let me switch topics and we're probably only going to have a chance to talk about
00:36:55.560
I've always strangely and maybe it's because my name is Beck
00:37:11.680
but I know there's family members over in and I don't even want to look
00:37:16.080
you know what I mean? I kind of hang my hat and I know I'm not related to him
00:37:21.500
hang my hat on well General Beck tried to kill Hitler so maybe that
00:37:45.600
and I've been fascinated by it and I've done a lot of research on the Holocaust
00:37:51.560
and and the roots of it I mean it's it's happened 18 times if there's something
00:37:59.120
that I think it's an actual evil that has been trying to kill the Jews over and
00:38:05.200
over and over again and it keeps jumping from one place to another
00:38:18.900
the eugenics progressives here in America that we're doing you know
00:38:42.460
we reintroduced the poison back into our system
00:38:52.760
worked on Wernher von Braun and I read something in your book that I
00:38:56.900
I didn't know I always thought it was well we're not sure
00:39:00.880
but you say that Wernher von Braun who got us to the moon
00:39:16.800
well he didn't he may not have known he didn't know
00:39:30.300
you know your intro to that is is very interesting
00:39:39.220
the psychological the psychology behind becoming evil
00:39:45.020
and you know you're asking at least what I'm hearing is
00:39:57.700
we know from the documents in the Bundesarchives that I visited
00:40:16.760
and was handpicking people who looked healthy enough
00:40:20.560
to be able to build his rockets as part of the slave labor teams
00:40:27.960
and so when you are able to get that kind of specificity
00:40:43.620
but once there are there's documentation about that
00:41:00.760
I focused on 23 specifically in Operation Paperclip
00:41:05.160
these were people who were very close to Himmler, Hitler, Goering
00:43:21.580
for having invented synthetic rubber for the Reich