The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 236 ｜ Is God Using Trump？｜ Eric Metaxas

00:00:00.000 And now, a Blaze Media Podcast.

00:00:04.380 On the Great Seal of the United States are the words E Pluribus Unum, which means, out of many, one.

00:00:12.220 But Thomas Jefferson suggested a different motto, it was a more radical motto.

00:00:17.700 In the spirit of liberty, Jefferson proposed the phrase, rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

00:00:25.020 This is embedded in our nation's founding, the implicit belief that it is not only permissible to resist a tyrant, but it is the moral thing to do.

00:00:36.200 This is the same belief that animated a German theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer in World War II.

00:00:42.120 He was a pastor.

00:00:43.520 He was a spy.

00:00:44.540 He was a musician.

00:00:45.440 He was also a conspirator in a plot to assassinate Hitler, acting, as he said, on God's behalf.

00:00:54.160 So, is that acting like a good Christian?

00:00:56.780 And what is a good Christian?

00:00:59.020 In the wake of the red wave, it is clear that Republicans are on top.

00:01:04.140 But what about the church?

00:01:05.900 Are we still a religious people or religious right?

00:01:10.700 Is Christianity losing its influence on our culture?

00:01:14.240 As more and more people are stopping going to church, is that a good thing?

00:01:18.520 To explore these questions, we welcome to the podcast, radio and television host and best-selling author of many books, including the biography of Bonhoeffer.

00:01:31.080 Bonhoeffer, the movie, is out and it is tremendous.

00:01:34.260 Bonhoeffer, his book, inspired the Angel Studios' latest film.

00:01:39.840 Its author, Eric Metaxas.

00:01:42.020 Before we get to Eric, let me talk to you about pre-born.

00:01:48.840 Is it Christian nationalism to fight against abortion?

00:01:53.620 Is that too political?

00:01:55.740 Or is that what we're supposed to be doing as Christians?

00:01:58.840 I am partnered with pre-born and I'm really proud of it.

00:02:01.980 They're the nation's leader in introducing moms to unplanned pregnancies to their babies.

00:02:06.940 Once mom hears the heartbeat and sees that baby inside of her, she's twice as likely to choose life.

00:02:14.420 64 million lives are gone from abortion in this country.

00:02:18.140 And since Roe versus Wade, since that was first enacted, 64.

00:02:25.120 Now, after it was put away, millions are hanging in the balance and it's actually becoming worse.

00:02:32.520 We have to change this.

00:02:33.780 We have to start with Americans' hearts and minds.

00:02:38.040 That's what pre-born is all about.

00:02:39.640 When a woman considering abortion wants to end her baby's life, pre-born is there.

00:02:43.780 Power of the ultrasound.

00:02:45.140 Then, also, most women don't want to have an abortion.

00:02:49.080 They just don't have anyone around them.

00:02:50.800 They don't have any support.

00:02:52.020 Pre-born is there again.

00:02:53.520 For two years, supporting mom, diapers, formula, books, classes, whatever it is that they need.

00:03:01.780 For $28, you can sponsor one ultrasound.

00:03:05.520 Five would be $140.

00:03:08.080 And if you have the means, please consider a leadership gift to save babies in a big way.

00:03:13.100 Tax-deductible donation of $5,000 will sponsor the entire country's network for 24 hours,

00:03:20.120 helping rescue 200 babies.

00:03:22.320 Donate, dial pound 250, say the keyword baby.

00:03:24.720 That's pound 250, keyword baby.

00:03:26.780 Or go to preborn.com slash Glenn.

00:03:28.700 So good to see you.

00:03:44.860 Yeah, it's good to see you.

00:03:46.680 It's a joy to see you.

00:03:48.580 It is a great joy and a great blessing.

00:03:50.840 And I, you know, I love you.

00:03:54.240 And I'm in awe of the fact that it's almost exactly 14 years ago that we met to talk about

00:04:03.760 a brand new book that I had just written on Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

00:04:07.420 And here we are.

00:04:08.580 And I had no idea who Bonhoeffer was at the time.

00:04:11.200 And I think how you got into my office is a friend of yours took a picture of Dietrich

00:04:16.700 Bonhoeffer and put the not to speak is to speak.

00:04:20.120 Oh, no, no, no.

00:04:20.540 This is like one of my dearest friends, Joel Tuchero.

00:04:22.740 And he had, I'll never forget, he says to me, the book comes out and I'd never had any

00:04:26.640 big success or anything.

00:04:27.660 So when he says like, he says, we need to get you on Glenn Beck.

00:04:30.480 And I remember thinking like, yeah, I need to win the lottery.

00:04:34.000 I need to get on Oprah.

00:04:36.260 Like, what are you talking about?

00:04:37.480 Glenn Beck has this monster show on Fox and everybody wants to get on Glenn Beck.

00:04:42.280 And he's like, no, no, no.

00:04:43.120 I think he would resonate with the story.

00:04:46.160 And Joel had the insight to get that and to realize that we should try.

00:04:50.640 And so I remember he created the Bonhoeffer poster.

00:04:54.400 People can buy this now.

00:04:55.500 But this gorgeous image and he prints it and frames it with the quote, which is actually

00:05:01.760 not a Bonhoeffer quote.

00:05:03.000 It's sort of like when they, you know, when they say Tocqueville said this, it's like,

00:05:05.740 well, he said, sort of said that, but he didn't exactly say that.

00:05:08.160 But it doesn't matter, right?

00:05:09.880 Silence in the face of evil is itself evil.

00:05:11.920 Not to speak is to speak.

00:05:13.420 Not to act is to act.

00:05:15.040 God will not hold us guiltless.

00:05:16.400 This amazing thing, whatever.

00:05:17.500 So he sends it to you and somehow evidently it touches your heart.

00:05:21.920 Oh, yeah.

00:05:22.540 Immediately.

00:05:23.140 And you reached out.

00:05:24.020 It came into my office and things just used to appear in my office because I was always

00:05:29.420 so busy.

00:05:29.960 Nobody.

00:05:30.640 And so I paged everything like who dropped this off?

00:05:33.900 Where is this?

00:05:34.620 And we immediately reached out because I thought it was brilliant.

00:05:38.200 I wanted to know who Bonhoeffer was.

00:05:40.540 And now the movie.

00:05:42.620 Now you're sick of him.

00:05:44.180 Now we're all sick of him.

00:05:45.380 Just kidding.

00:05:46.080 I got a kid.

00:05:46.920 I kid.

00:05:47.760 It's so amazing.

00:05:49.140 Now, to be clear, the film, which like officially comes out today, is not officially based on my book.

00:05:59.100 But guess what?

00:05:59.760 I don't care.

00:06:00.940 It is a magnificent film on Bonhoeffer.

00:06:05.620 So I said anything I can do to get people into the theaters, by the way, this weekend, not

00:06:12.340 next weekend, like now, because the way Hollywood works, they will book theaters in the weeks

00:06:19.280 ahead based on what happens today and tomorrow and Sunday.

00:06:22.440 That's it.

00:06:23.620 And the film, I can say up front, I have dreamed not just about a Bonhoeffer film like this,

00:06:30.200 but any Hollywood film like this, for somebody to make a film that is about faith, faith in

00:06:39.780 action, this beautiful hero, you just think like we've always hoped that somebody would

00:06:44.820 make a film like that and make it on a level that's not just for people who already agree

00:06:49.260 with us, but that anybody who would see it would go and say, that's a great story.

00:06:53.900 What is that?

00:06:55.000 So I'm happy.

00:06:57.000 So I want to start here.

00:07:00.200 Do you know what this is?

00:07:01.500 I'm always frightened, man.

00:07:02.620 You, you got stuff like nobody, nobody in the world.

00:07:10.060 Yeah.

00:07:10.600 Are we joking?

00:07:11.340 You're joking?

00:07:11.600 No.

00:07:11.760 This is real.

00:07:12.580 Uh-huh.

00:07:13.000 I'm touching this.

00:07:14.200 Uh-huh.

00:07:17.040 I just handed him a silver ring, napkin ring, and you can tell whose it is.

00:07:27.020 Well, the, uh, the initials A-H.

00:07:31.800 My throat.

00:07:32.400 Let's see.

00:07:32.820 It's not A-L, so it can't be Lincoln.

00:07:34.740 The swastika.

00:07:35.680 Let me guess.

00:07:36.660 So now describe the napkin.

00:07:40.880 I was going to say, I wasn't ready for that because I noticed that second, secondarily.

00:07:46.420 There are bloodstains on the napkin.

00:07:48.480 That napkin is said to have been with Hitler during the bombing.

00:07:58.620 So if you watched Von Stauffenberg, or Valkyrie, this movie is the spiritual side.

00:08:06.980 Part of it is the spiritual side of Valkyrie.

00:08:09.760 Now, my book on Bonhoeffer, and you know this better than anybody, all of this is in

00:08:14.900 my book, The Valkyrie Plot, whatever, because Bonhoeffer would not have been sentenced to

00:08:19.340 death if not for the Valkyrie plot.

00:08:22.560 But you're telling me, Glenn, only you could do this stuff.

00:08:25.680 You're telling me not only is this Hitler's, this is too much for me, but you're telling

00:08:33.300 me that when the bomb goes off at Wolfeschanz on July 20th, 1944, this was in the room?

00:08:39.860 Yes.

00:08:40.960 That's said to be Hitler's blood.

00:08:42.560 We haven't had it tested yet, but since that time, that was said to be Hitler's blood.

00:08:49.120 You read.

00:08:49.660 This is like, this is like, this is 10 times like this is your life.

00:08:52.920 Are you just trying to freak me out, man?

00:08:54.600 Are you trying to freak me out, brother?

00:08:55.580 You read German?

00:08:56.800 Yes.

00:08:57.200 I can just keep going, but what's the point?

00:09:21.320 What the heck?

00:09:23.580 This is the putsch of July 20th.

00:09:31.820 Turn it over.

00:09:33.300 This is the execution order for those involved in that signed by Himmler.

00:09:42.820 Glenn, of all the people in the world, you really, I don't know what to say.

00:09:49.280 I do not know what to say.

00:09:50.460 And you can see they tried to destroy it at the end of the war.

00:09:54.420 It has burn stains on it.

00:09:55.940 I can't even believe that I get to look at this, much less touch it.

00:10:01.560 So this is Bonhoeffer's story, which is so bizarre because he is a pacifist.

00:10:09.540 Well, yes and no.

00:10:10.740 This is kind of where it gets tricky.

00:10:12.540 And this is why the liberals hate my guts.

00:10:15.960 Don't go there yet because I'm going to get, oh, I've got a lot of hate your gut stuff.

00:10:20.460 Because I told the truth about Bonhoeffer.

00:10:24.500 But I mean, look, part of what's interesting about having this in front of me is to say to people, hey, ladies and gentlemen, this is history.

00:10:33.440 This is real.

00:10:34.060 My mother, who I talk to every day, she's 90.

00:10:37.560 She grew up in Nazi Germany.

00:10:39.740 My grandfather was killed in the war.

00:10:41.260 I wrote my Bonhoeffer book.

00:10:42.500 I dedicated it to my grandfather.

00:10:43.820 I'm named after him, Eric.

00:10:45.880 This is real.

00:10:47.280 This is not something that happened, you know, a billion years ago.

00:10:50.580 This is history.

00:10:52.260 And you know, and I know, in many ways, it's repeating itself.

00:10:55.160 And the Jew hatred is on the rise, which is why I think the film is coming out.

00:10:59.540 Now, this is God's timing because they tried to make the film for years and years and years and boom, now it's out.

00:11:03.620 It wouldn't have been the same.

00:11:06.280 God's amazing.

00:11:07.460 Well.

00:11:08.040 Amazing.

00:11:08.440 Yeah.

00:11:09.240 Mm-hmm.

00:11:09.800 Yeah.

00:11:10.720 Yeah.

00:11:11.780 So let's just, let's start in the movie here for a second.

00:11:16.420 One of the things that I loved in your book was the human side of Bonhoeffer.

00:11:22.520 The fact that he comes to America early before, you know, Hitler takes over and he falls in love with the African-American culture in Harlem and the music.

00:11:34.520 Oh, it changes his life.

00:11:36.700 That's no exaggeration.

00:11:37.820 And it changes everything and it leads to everything that followed.

00:11:41.140 Now, should I just say for people who know nothing about Bonhoeffer, like two sentences?

00:11:45.580 Yeah, go ahead.

00:11:45.780 Okay.

00:11:46.280 So Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German pastor who in the early 30s knew because of his Christian faith, he needed to wake the church up in Germany, that it's your duty as Christians to stand up to the evil of the Nazis.

00:12:04.300 Now, at first, it was not about Jews.

00:12:06.680 It was, wasn't it?

00:12:08.360 It was more about.

00:12:09.020 Well, for him, for him, it, you're right, to some extent, so complicated, right?

00:12:15.120 But this is, this is why I hope people will read my book because I always think, I want people to know the details because the parallels are so crazy to where we are today.

00:12:23.540 But initially in Germany, as the Nazis rise, the first thing the Nazis are trying to do, because this is, this is, you know, if you take God out of the equation and you have this Nazi philosophy, what's philosophy?

00:12:36.240 Well, the philosophy is Jews are evil, Germans, Aryans are good, good.

00:12:40.820 Oh, okay.

00:12:41.580 So what does that mean?

00:12:42.600 It means that the government is now going to try to separate the whole culture along racial lines.

00:12:46.640 And you go, okay, what happens when that comes to the church?

00:12:51.540 When the Nazis say, okay, we're going to have a German Reichskirche, we're going to have a German Third Reich church.

00:12:59.160 And before I read this, and we are now going to have a, an official state church.

00:13:05.300 Now in America, we know separation of church and state.

00:13:08.200 They didn't.

00:13:08.820 We don't allow the state by God's grace to touch the church.

00:13:13.580 The church is 1000% independent.

00:13:16.020 But in Germany, they had a very happy relationship.

00:13:18.760 The Kaiser had been very pro church.

00:13:21.380 And so you have this in a lot of European nations where they never had to deal with this issue.

00:13:26.820 We dealt with it in 1776.

00:13:28.620 We dealt with it in 1787.

00:13:30.620 They didn't need to deal with it until suddenly now the head of the state is Adolf Hitler, who is as anti-Christian as it gets.

00:13:38.160 But he's not stupid.

00:13:38.980 He's not going to pretend to be anti-Christian.

00:13:40.920 He's going to pretend to be, I care about Christian morality and God is with us and all this different stuff.

00:13:46.680 So Bonhoeffer is this rarest of individuals who sees immediately the Nazis are going to try to take over the church.

00:13:54.540 And they're going to try to get the church to do to go along with Nazi philosophy, which includes demonizing the Jews and saying that if you have Jewish blood, you can't be a member of the German church.

00:14:06.180 And Bonhoeffer is like, well, that's a problem because Jesus was Jewish.

00:14:11.280 Mary was Jewish.

00:14:12.780 Joseph was Jewish.

00:14:14.360 You know, Peter was Jewish.

00:14:16.140 It's like the whole church starts out with Jewish roots.

00:14:18.820 So the idea that if you believe in Jesus and you have ethnic Jewish blood, that doesn't disqualify you.

00:14:25.060 Most of the church was originally Jewish.

00:14:26.620 And there are many of Bonhoeffer's friends who were ethnically Jewish who believe in Jesus and their ministers and stuff.

00:14:31.320 So he knows we've got to fight now.

00:14:34.440 And he tries to get the church to see it.

00:14:36.260 And they're kind of like, well, we don't do politics.

00:14:38.660 We just want to do church.

00:14:40.080 We just want to preach the gospel.

00:14:42.160 And he realizes you're missing it.

00:14:44.960 This is your duty before God to stand against evil.

00:14:48.020 So that's the battle.

00:14:50.300 That's the first battle with Bonhoeffer was to try to get the church to acknowledge us and to stand.

00:14:55.300 And, you know, and I know the church did not do it.

00:14:58.420 And by the time many in the church woke up, it was too late.

00:15:01.460 And that's what I've been talking about like a maniac for the last two years is that most American evangelicals are utterly guilty, sickeningly guilty of exactly the same.

00:15:12.620 Well, I can say that just because I'm an evangelical.

00:15:15.640 But it's all of us.

00:15:16.520 They have the least excuse.

00:15:18.020 In my mind.

00:15:18.820 I'm just saying.

00:15:19.720 So read that for a second.

00:15:21.360 To yourself.

00:15:21.980 Read that for a second.

00:15:22.500 I was going to say, no, no, no, more of this German stuff.

00:15:24.300 While I set this up.

00:15:27.120 So when Hitler takes over and he starts to go after the churches, he wants to squeeze all the Jew out of Jesus and out.

00:15:38.560 And he decides to make a case to take the Old Testament and disregard the Old Testament and only have the New Testament.

00:15:47.220 So we didn't have any of these pesky Jews.

00:15:48.800 The Old Testament, you know, yeah, it's too Jewish.

00:15:51.460 Too Jewish.

00:15:51.880 Guess what?

00:15:52.420 It's pretty Jewish.

00:15:53.380 Correct.

00:15:53.720 And so there was this big movement.

00:15:59.260 Yeah.

00:15:59.580 Done by these two.

00:16:01.680 Yeah.

00:16:01.900 And this is just a letter in reference.

00:16:05.680 Do you see the important sentence in that by any chance?

00:16:07.780 I didn't.

00:16:08.320 No.

00:16:08.480 So he's just saying, hey, Rosenberg, I know you're having a hard time and they're pushing back on you.

00:16:15.980 Just keep going.

00:16:17.360 And what he's talking about in this is the pushback that he's getting from moving a little too far, a little too fast.

00:16:26.300 Yeah.

00:16:26.740 And letting people know what they're doing to the Christian church.

00:16:30.980 And he's being encouraged here.

00:16:32.780 Don't don't worry about it.

00:16:34.560 You just you know, it's right.

00:16:35.840 I know it's right.

00:16:36.560 We got to get all this Jewish stuff out of the churches.

00:16:39.580 Well, Rosenberg, who's listed here, he was in my Bonhoeffer book.

00:16:44.920 I just reread the whole book after 14 years and I found stuff that I had forgotten.

00:16:50.620 And one of it is the Rosenberg thing that he was the one pushing dramatically to completely rip real Christian faith out of the German churches and replace it.

00:17:04.880 We'll replace the Bible with Mein Kampf.

00:17:06.900 Like the kind of stuff you think that somebody would make it up.

00:17:08.720 It couldn't really be true.

00:17:09.640 It was true.

00:17:10.620 Within six months, some churches had replaced the picture of Christ on the altar.

00:17:15.800 Yeah.

00:17:16.240 With Adolf Hitler.

00:17:17.300 Oh, no, it's so sick.

00:17:18.980 But again, most Germans had no clue.

00:17:20.900 They just kind of went along and went along.

00:17:23.240 And and when you really look at it, you understand why Bonhoeffer was, you know, screaming like a church.

00:17:28.440 You need to do something now.

00:17:30.300 You have a chance now to do something.

00:17:32.460 So so that's who Bonhoeffer was.

00:17:35.120 But where you were going was that early in his life, Bonhoeffer was 24 years old.

00:17:38.880 He knew he wanted to be a pastor.

00:17:41.700 He couldn't get ordained until he was 25.

00:17:44.120 So he was this brilliant theologian.

00:17:46.420 And, you know, he gets his doctorate at age 21.

00:17:48.600 But at age 24, he decides, I want to spend a year in America.

00:17:51.320 And he was like just incredibly culturally sophisticated.

00:17:53.960 So he thought, I'm going to go to America.

00:17:55.320 I'm going to visit.

00:17:55.860 You know, his brother had split the atom with Einstein, was in Chicago doing something that year.

00:18:01.280 So he goes to America.

00:18:02.420 He goes to the horrible Union Theological Seminary, which is totally liberal.

00:18:06.440 And he's already like, I mean, I write in my book, I quote his his letters home and his journals talking about how pathetic this the liberal theology is in Union in 1930.

00:18:17.660 Wow.

00:18:18.280 In 1930.

00:18:18.860 Right.

00:18:19.440 So what happens?

00:18:20.540 He meets an African-American student, Frank Fisher from Alabama.

00:18:23.980 And Frank says, well, come up to this church with me in Abyssinian Baptist Church up in Harlem.

00:18:27.920 And Bonhoeffer, for the first and this is in the film, for the first time in his life, sees a kind of Christian faith.

00:18:36.020 He's like, wow, this is amazing.

00:18:39.480 The worship.

00:18:40.320 They're really worshiping God.

00:18:41.540 They're not just singing songs.

00:18:43.080 And it was a personal relationship.

00:18:45.400 It shows in the movie.

00:18:46.240 It's a personal relationship, which he doesn't even seem to understand, at least in the movie.

00:18:51.120 He didn't really understand that.

00:18:53.740 I mean, I think he understood it a little bit, but you're right.

00:18:56.180 Not really.

00:18:56.760 And he sees it there and it changes his life.

00:19:01.020 So if you read again, and because I just reread my book, you realize there's no doubt that he had, you know, what we would call orthodox Christian faith up to this point.

00:19:10.460 But it hadn't touched his heart.

00:19:12.900 So he sees this.

00:19:14.600 He's totally changed by what he sees in the black church in Harlem.

00:19:17.460 He goes back to Germany and all his friends can see something happened to this guy.

00:19:22.360 He's reading the Bible.

00:19:23.800 He's going to church.

00:19:24.900 He's not just a theologian.

00:19:27.000 And then he starts talking to his pupils, to his students about things like saying things like, do you love Jesus?

00:19:35.220 He never would have said that kind of language before.

00:19:38.980 Do you love, do you have this personal relationship?

00:19:41.240 Like all the stuff that you realize is the hallmark of actual faith, not just theological ascent.

00:19:47.400 So he's different.

00:19:48.560 And then he sees, of course, that what was happening to the blacks in America, because he visited the Jim Crow South.

00:19:54.300 He saw all this stuff.

00:19:55.460 He suddenly sees the Jews being demonized and he makes the connection.

00:19:58.980 Hang on just a second, because we found a letter from Bonhoeffer writing to his family after the Scottsboro case.

00:20:09.620 He says, we really don't have an analogous situation in Germany.

00:20:14.180 That's the famous.

00:20:15.360 That's crazy.

00:20:15.920 Yeah.

00:20:16.080 Well, listen, you've got to understand.

00:20:17.400 And I think I explained this in my book.

00:20:18.680 On some level, that's true.

00:20:19.980 In other words, when he's writing that letter, you know, which is the Scottsboro case, what is it, 20, 29 or 30?

00:20:27.300 Sorry.

00:20:27.900 Yeah, 30.

00:20:28.760 So it's 1930.

00:20:29.860 But the point is that the Jews in Germany up to that point, it's one thing to be anti-Semitic.

00:20:34.360 You know, you had all that in England, they're anti-Semitic.

00:20:36.840 But the point is the Jews were at every place in society.

00:20:41.040 They had money.

00:20:41.960 They had prestige, whatever.

00:20:43.260 So he's thinking the blacks in America are hugely disenfranchised.

00:20:47.040 So he doesn't make that equation.

00:20:48.700 And also, he doesn't know how quickly the Nazis are going to make the Jews, you know.

00:20:54.280 Because the Nazi, the Nuremberg laws were based on our laws, much of them.

00:21:00.640 It's so, it's such a joy to talk to you because you know this stuff so deeply.

00:21:06.480 It really, it's such a blessing, Glenn.

00:21:08.620 Thank you.

00:21:10.200 And this stuff is so, so, so important.

00:21:12.720 And again, rereading my own book, I remembered things that I had forgotten because I've talked about Bonhoeffer

00:21:18.180 hundreds of times.

00:21:18.920 But some of this granular stuff, you think, wow.

00:21:22.180 You know, there's a reason my book is as long as it is.

00:21:23.920 Because people need to know the details.

00:21:25.980 Otherwise, you just mythologize it and it becomes a cartoon.

00:21:28.940 It's like, no, you need to know how real this is.

00:21:31.320 But it is.

00:21:33.860 All right.

00:21:34.340 More with Eric in just a second.

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00:22:40.760 In the movie, he walks into, I think, a hotel because his black pastor friend says, you don't know what the rest of America is like.

00:22:55.880 They take a trip.

00:22:56.700 I mean, Bonhoeffer loved to travel, and he was so culturally curious.

00:23:00.880 He would go everywhere.

00:23:01.660 So here he is in New York, and his friend says, hey, let's go visit the Jim Crow South.

00:23:06.040 Let's go to Washington, D.C.

00:23:07.360 We can see Howard University, and you can see, like, what we have here in America.

00:23:13.320 So that really happened, and in the film, they show him going with Frank Fisher to Washington, D.C.

00:23:18.640 And so in the film, they go into a hotel to book a room.

00:23:22.520 Now, because I just reread my book, I realized this happened with a restaurant.

00:23:27.520 Bonhoeffer goes into a restaurant with his black friend, and they are refused service.

00:23:34.000 And he's, in other words, he saw this.

00:23:37.240 Now, in the film, it's much more dramatic.

00:23:39.120 But he saw, like, this is America.

00:23:43.000 Wow.

00:23:43.740 Like, this is real.

00:23:44.980 So this was real.

00:23:46.480 You know, people talk about racism today.

00:23:47.940 Ha!

00:23:48.480 In 1930, this is the real thing.

00:23:51.880 So the hotel didn't happen, but the same thing happened without the shotgun.

00:23:56.440 It's the same thing, yeah.

00:23:57.400 And he couldn't relate to it at the time.

00:24:02.760 When do you think that kicked in with him over in Germany?

00:24:06.940 Well, this is the other thing that's so fascinating about Bonhoeffer, because many Germans, like my family, for example, they had no clue what's going on.

00:24:16.160 They're simple people.

00:24:17.360 They have no connections.

00:24:18.560 They have no whatever.

00:24:19.680 Bonhoeffer's family was so connected.

00:24:21.940 It's what saved his life.

00:24:22.880 They were part of the, yes, they were part of the cultural elites.

00:24:25.880 And so they knew everybody and knew everything and had a lot of Jewish friends.

00:24:29.500 His sister, and this is in the movie, his twin sister marries a Jewish man.

00:24:35.560 Now, it was a Jewish man who converted to Christian faith, but according to the Nazis, you're a Jew.

00:24:43.200 And she's violated the Nuremberg Laws.

00:24:45.300 That's right.

00:24:45.840 So Bonhoeffer's twin sister and her husband and his nieces...

00:24:52.880 ...are Jews who begin to be persecuted.

00:24:56.340 So it's very personal for him.

00:24:57.880 He had many friends.

00:24:58.600 His best friend, before Eberhard Beitke becomes his best friend, his best friend is Franz Hildebrand, who's Jewish.

00:25:04.780 And so all this stuff hits him personally.

00:25:06.880 He's forced to see stuff that no Germans would see.

00:25:10.540 So he sees it early on.

00:25:12.480 And also because he's so smart, he sees where it's going.

00:25:15.760 And, you know, the really dramatic thing is Hitler takes power January 31st, 1933.

00:25:22.680 Within a couple of months, the church kind of leaders are trying to figure out, well, what do we do about this kind of...

00:25:27.940 ...the way that the Nazis are dealing with the Jews?

00:25:31.160 How do we respond as the church?

00:25:33.360 Bonhoeffer, being this genius theologian, he is deputized by these church leaders.

00:25:37.560 Go off and tell us what's the answer.

00:25:39.840 What do we do?

00:25:40.200 What's the biblical answer to this?

00:25:41.340 And he writes a famous essay called The Church and the Jewish Question where he lays out, okay, number one...

00:25:47.600 And it's kind of funny because I'm reading about the founders again recently, and you realize that the founders wrestled with this in the 1770s.

00:25:56.060 Bonhoeffer's wrestling with this in 1933.

00:25:59.940 He's like, we've never had to face this before.

00:26:01.760 What do we do?

00:26:02.480 And he comes up with exactly what the founders came up with.

00:26:05.200 And that was that the Bible and the Christian faith means that no government has any right to push us around.

00:26:12.560 Our rights are from God.

00:26:13.860 We are free.

00:26:14.780 And as Christians, we have to live that out.

00:26:16.680 So he spells this out for these Germans who are, they're pastors, but they've never thought about this before.

00:26:25.280 They never had to think about, well, what if the government starts pushing against us?

00:26:28.860 This is such the American story today.

00:26:30.940 It's amazing, right?

00:26:32.020 It's amazing.

00:26:32.840 And so if you don't know your rights and if you don't know what it really means to be a Christian, you're going to let them bully you, which many churches have been doing for the last, let's just say, four years, but for much longer than that.

00:26:42.640 And so Bonhoeffer writes this essay and he says, number one, the role of the church is to be the conscience of the state, to tell the state in a sense, this is when you go too far.

00:26:54.760 This is your job.

00:26:55.660 In other words, what is God's idea of the state?

00:26:57.580 God's idea of the state is there should be a state.

00:26:59.580 There should be a government, but it has to be serving righteous purposes.

00:27:03.780 And Bonhoeffer says, first thing is the job of the church is to make that clear.

00:27:08.440 And then if the church, if the state is going wrong, it's the job of the church to help the victims of state action.

00:27:20.300 So anybody hearing him read this essay, as he did read it to these pastors, they right away think like, oh, you mean the Jews?

00:27:29.120 And then he clarifies, oh, and by the way, if the victims of the state behaving not the way the state is supposed to be behaving, if those victims are not members of the church, in other words, if they're Jews, it is our duty to do it.

00:27:42.540 So I think a lot of Germans were kind of like, huh, really?

00:27:45.600 That's our duty as Christians?

00:27:46.760 And he's like, yes.

00:27:47.480 But then he goes the final fatal step, step three, point three, and he says, and if the state refuses to heed the counsel of the church and to do the right thing and continues to persecute the victims, it then becomes the duty of the church of Christians to, he uses the phrase, to put a stick in the spokes of the wheels of state.

00:28:14.700 In other words, in other words, to come against the state itself.

00:28:17.920 And you could see how a lot of patriotic Germans would be like, what are you talking about?

00:28:21.960 Because they had this tradition from Martin Luther, you know, to put this overemphasis on Romans 13, which is, you know, a passage in the New Testament that focuses on, it's our job to, you know, to go along with what the state says to do.

00:28:39.040 And there's a truth there, up to a point, and Bonhoeffer's thinking, yes, up to a point, up to this point.

00:28:44.500 And so it was very incendiary, and a lot of pastors and theologians thought, no, no, he's gone too far.

00:28:51.220 We, the church, it's not our job to go against the state.

00:28:53.480 Are you kidding?

00:28:54.820 And he saw it crystal clear.

00:28:57.280 And so he tried and tried and tried to get more people to see it.

00:28:59.980 Obviously, not enough agreed.

00:29:02.560 When was that, that he wrote that?

00:29:04.420 33.

00:29:05.420 Early in 33.

00:29:06.400 So is it true that he was doing a broadcast when Hitler was, I think, sworn in that day or something?

00:29:13.840 Two days after Hitler comes to power, is elected, Bonhoeffer had been, now the mythological, in my book, in all my biographies, I like to clear up stuff that's a little fuzzy.

00:29:24.600 Like, because a lot of people would say, like, oh, yeah, Bonhoeffer was giving a radio speech and the Nazis cut it off.

00:29:29.000 That's not really true.

00:29:29.940 We don't know that's true.

00:29:30.900 But the bottom line is he had been scheduled for some time to give a radio address.

00:29:36.120 On the Fuhrer principle.

00:29:37.140 On the issue of what's called the Fuhrer principle.

00:29:39.820 And I have to explain that, you know, what led to the rise of Adolf Hitler.

00:29:43.600 Germany had always had a monarch.

00:29:44.980 They'd always had this wonderful leader, the Kaiser.

00:29:47.400 Suddenly, the Allies, you know, ham-handedly say that the Kaiser has to abdicate.

00:29:55.080 You can't have a monarchy.

00:29:55.980 We're going to force democracy on you.

00:29:57.500 They never had democracy before.

00:29:58.660 So they're sort of looking around and thinking, this is not really, you know, we didn't, if democracy doesn't arise out of, you know, we the people, then it's kind of enforced and it's kind of a mess.

00:30:09.180 So Germany was, they were longing for a leader like they used to have in the king, in the Kaiser.

00:30:15.960 And if you'd ask them, what kind of a leader are you looking for?

00:30:19.980 They didn't really know.

00:30:20.780 They just know we want a leader.

00:30:22.800 And you can see the devil thinking like, well, I've got a leader just like that waiting on the wings.

00:30:27.280 And they were demoralized.

00:30:28.960 They were demoralized.

00:30:30.140 They were just looking for someone.

00:30:31.600 And you can see on a human level why they would do that.

00:30:34.560 And so Bonhoeffer gets on the radio.

00:30:39.360 This is two days after Hitler takes power.

00:30:41.340 And he gives this kind of radio speech about what is leadership?

00:30:46.860 Like what is righteous leadership?

00:30:49.260 And of course, righteous leadership is that I am deputized by God to lead my family, let's say.

00:30:57.400 Right.

00:30:57.540 And it was my authority doesn't come from me.

00:30:59.080 It comes from God.

00:30:59.940 I'm the father and I have a duty.

00:31:02.520 And so I am under authority.

00:31:05.840 And so what he talks about is the Fuhrer principle is this idea of a Fuhrer who's an idol.

00:31:11.100 He's under no authority.

00:31:12.120 He's not under God's authority.

00:31:13.320 He is his own authority.

00:31:14.500 It's this messianic, satanic.

00:31:16.160 What does the word Fuhrer mean?

00:31:17.640 Fuhrer literally means leader.

00:31:19.360 So think of leader, capital L, the leader.

00:31:21.960 You know, it's kind of like North Korea, the leader, the dear leader.

00:31:25.480 And so it's to make an idol of the leader.

00:31:27.540 So even the Kaiser was under God's authority, but the leader, this idea of the leader that

00:31:34.400 kind of arises in the 1920s in Germany, is this just a leader, but whose authority is

00:31:40.240 he under?

00:31:41.360 Nobody.

00:31:42.120 And so Bonhoeffer lays this out and he says, there's the temptation to make an idol of this

00:31:47.460 leader and for this leader to lead people to kind of worship him as opposed to, you know,

00:31:52.720 I mean, we don't want our kids to worship us.

00:31:54.480 We want them to respect us because we respect God and it's a whole different.

00:31:58.660 So he's outlining kind of this biblical view of leadership versus this satanic will to power

00:32:03.820 kind of leadership.

00:32:05.620 And wow.

00:32:07.300 I mean, he's giving this radio address and it gets cut off.

00:32:12.360 We don't know why it gets cut off and stuff, but so he's on the record.

00:32:15.120 Two days after Hitler takes power, Bonhoeffer is on the record as standing against this

00:32:21.220 kind of false leadership.

00:32:22.660 In fact, he says that leader is a misleader.

00:32:25.540 Wow.

00:32:26.640 So let me, let me go through a couple of things here because I'd like your opinion on early

00:32:31.500 on and especially with the church.

00:32:35.160 A couple of things happen.

00:32:37.320 You just mentioned one and that is when, when Hitler comes to power, they are, the people

00:32:48.040 are demoralized.

00:32:48.900 They have been kicked by everybody in the world.

00:32:52.560 They are no longer the great nation that they once thought they were.

00:32:57.820 The churches had really hurt themselves in world war one by saying this is God's and it

00:33:04.120 wasn't.

00:33:04.840 Yeah.

00:33:04.900 And so, and then they go into just decadence with the Weimar.

00:33:10.680 And so let me just drop a marker here for a second.

00:33:15.280 Then I'll give you one more thing.

00:33:16.880 Drop the marker at, gosh, that kind of sounds like America today.

00:33:22.300 Okay.

00:33:22.620 You've been kicked around.

00:33:23.780 You're tired of it.

00:33:24.640 You're looking for somebody.

00:33:26.060 Yeah.

00:33:26.280 And somebody comes to say, oh, I'll, I'll take care of that.

00:33:30.440 Okay.

00:33:31.520 The next marker is.

00:33:34.940 As I started doing research on transgenderism.

00:33:39.320 The college or university of sexology in Berlin at the height of the Weimar Republic.

00:33:47.380 Right.

00:33:48.140 They, they, the first transgender surgery happens in 1925 in Berlin.

00:33:54.760 And that guy has multiple surgeries.

00:33:57.360 He dies in 29 as they try to sew a uterus inside of that man.

00:34:03.580 Okay.

00:34:03.740 This is the Island of Dr. Moreau.

00:34:05.960 Yes, it is.

00:34:06.720 This is so sick.

00:34:07.960 Yes.

00:34:08.440 So, but that university in Berlin starts writing books and papers and starts pushing this out.

00:34:17.080 So it's in the universities.

00:34:18.640 It's even in some of the schools, secondary schools.

00:34:23.940 And that's when it's my understanding.

00:34:27.600 And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

00:34:29.300 And that's when the people who felt they were being pushed into the background and we have

00:34:38.400 just become this immoral, godless state, they were looking for someone to get rid of all

00:34:45.160 of this stuff.

00:34:46.100 That's right.

00:34:46.220 Right.

00:34:47.080 And they found them in the brown shirts.

00:34:49.080 Yeah.

00:34:49.220 So the first book burnings were actually the stuff that saying transgenderism, homosexuality,

00:34:55.900 pedophilia, all of that is fine.

00:34:57.820 Well, that's the point is there's going to be truth in every lie.

00:35:01.220 And that's the way the devil works.

00:35:02.760 There's no such thing as a pure lie.

00:35:04.660 So you have to, you know, you give somebody something that they like and they go along

00:35:09.140 with it.

00:35:09.560 Right.

00:35:09.660 And again, if you're a Christian, you would recognize pretty quickly, like, wait a minute,

00:35:14.540 can't go along with that, can't go along with that.

00:35:16.420 And, but they, the church in Germany, again, it was lost.

00:35:23.700 It was, so Bonhoeffer knew the church was the only hope of Germany to stand against this

00:35:29.740 evil.

00:35:30.080 But if he couldn't get enough German pastors to do that, and he couldn't.

00:35:35.020 So, but let me go back.

00:35:36.640 Here's why I dropped those two in.

00:35:40.580 When I saw, you know, when you hear people, transgender, homosexuals or whatever, they'll

00:35:46.620 say, those Christians are going to round us up.

00:35:49.100 Yeah.

00:35:50.580 Historically.

00:35:51.220 Yeah.

00:35:51.560 They have a point.

00:35:52.700 In Germany, historically, that's what happened.

00:35:56.120 The Christians got in bed with the Germans.

00:35:58.420 Are they, were they the Christians?

00:36:00.180 You see what I'm saying?

00:36:00.960 Like, in other words, I don't think, but I don't know that that's true.

00:36:03.780 And I think that we're living in a day right now, especially as Americans, I know that

00:36:10.720 anything that leans toward theocracy, that leans toward demonizing people with whom we

00:36:15.600 disagree, that is fundamentally evil, anti-Christian.

00:36:19.920 In other words, so, so this idea that there are people who want to impose their morality,

00:36:25.120 I know that happened in the past.

00:36:26.640 We're not there.

00:36:27.420 In other words, I don't, I am very, you know, deeply involved in all kinds of Christian

00:36:31.600 communities.

00:36:32.040 I don't see a hint to that.

00:36:33.360 And if you ever do see a hint, it's the Christians that say, no, that's wrong, you

00:36:38.180 know?

00:36:38.740 And so I don't see that parallel today.

00:36:41.300 But the fear on the other side is there.

00:36:44.260 There are people think, oh, if people, if Christians and conservatives get in power, they're going

00:36:48.240 to do this and this and this and this.

00:36:49.500 I know that's not true, but I know that their fear of it is very real, which is why they use

00:36:55.900 the incendiary language that they do, that if Trump gets in power, he's going to do this

00:36:59.420 and this and this.

00:36:59.860 That is absolute nonsense.

00:37:01.680 I would be screaming from the rooftops.

00:37:03.560 But the point is, they're so convinced of this.

00:37:07.020 They so think, oh, no, no, he's Hitler 2.0, that they're willing to put a bullet in his

00:37:11.720 head.

00:37:12.000 They're willing to.

00:37:12.520 In other words, they're willing to do anything because they feel like they know that this

00:37:16.740 is a real threat.

00:37:18.000 I know that it isn't.

00:37:19.140 But those are these are the times in which we live.

00:37:22.220 So how do you convince people who will see these parallels?

00:37:26.200 Strong leader.

00:37:27.060 Yeah.

00:37:27.980 Restore things.

00:37:28.720 It's very surfacy, Glenn.

00:37:30.080 This is the thing is I've been dealing with this since 2016.

00:37:32.400 When I first came out for Trump and there were people thinking, don't you, Eric, you idiot,

00:37:36.580 you wrote the Bonhoeffer book.

00:37:37.580 Don't you see that he's an authoritarian nationalist just like Hitler?

00:37:40.660 And I'm thinking, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:37:42.380 His version of nationalism is like George Washington's version of nationalism, not like Hitler's

00:37:48.040 version.

00:37:48.560 So nationalism by itself is not bad.

00:37:50.740 When you make an idol of the nation, it can go bad.

00:37:53.640 But George Washington, Abraham Lincoln loved America.

00:37:59.120 And that kind of nationalism is beautiful.

00:38:01.620 It doesn't lead to making an idol of patriotism, an idol of the president.

00:38:05.340 It leads away from that.

00:38:07.980 But people who really don't have a sense of history, they're very simplistic and they

00:38:12.000 go, oh, Hitler was a nationalist.

00:38:14.300 He was an authoritarian.

00:38:15.720 Trump is authoritarian.

00:38:16.620 Even that phrase, when people say Trump is authoritarian, that is nonsensical.

00:38:21.280 For four years, he was the president of the United States.

00:38:24.120 He didn't do the stuff that people are saying.

00:38:27.080 It doesn't mean I agree with everything.

00:38:28.260 But the point is that these people are so emotional that they don't even, the facts are

00:38:33.520 meaningless.

00:38:33.880 As far as they're concerned, if you are in any way like a strong leader, they say, oh, you're

00:38:40.760 an authoritarian.

00:38:41.200 Do they know what an authoritarian is?

00:38:43.540 Have you lived in North Korea?

00:38:44.980 Have you lived in a country with actual authoritarianism where if you dissent, you're rounded up?

00:38:52.900 You know, the only people I see being rounded up in America is people that dared to wander

00:38:57.360 through the Capitol and take selfies on J6.

00:38:59.680 Those people are in prison while we sit here having this conversation.

00:39:02.860 So there's tremendous irony.

00:39:05.000 And we're in a dark place.

00:39:06.980 Let me, while we're here in the dark place, let me just ask you, because you get a lot.

00:39:14.460 Well, let me ask you this first before we go there.

00:39:16.860 If Bonhoeffer were alive today, what do you think he would be, what he would think about

00:39:24.800 world affairs, theology?

00:39:26.860 Would he be engaged?

00:39:30.500 Well, I mean, yeah.

00:39:31.600 I think that we just have to look at how engaged he was.

00:39:34.580 He was willing to get involved in a plot to kill Adolf Hitler.

00:39:38.920 Why?

00:39:39.700 Because he knew that Jews are being destroyed, murdered.

00:39:42.900 He said, I have to do something about this.

00:39:44.960 You know, and so I think that this idea, you know, the lie that he was dealing with in

00:39:51.220 his day, it's the same lie we're dealing with in our day, which was what led me to write

00:39:55.560 my book, Letter to the American Church.

00:39:57.620 What would Bonhoeffer say today?

00:39:59.660 It's the same excuses being given by the church.

00:40:02.060 We don't do politics.

00:40:03.580 What do you mean you don't do politics?

00:40:05.120 Slavery is an issue.

00:40:07.920 And you say, well, we don't take a position.

00:40:09.680 That's political.

00:40:10.400 We just do church.

00:40:11.180 How can you do church and not take an issue on enslaving human beings?

00:40:15.920 That's politics.

00:40:16.920 My hero, William Wilberforce, I wrote a biography of William Wilberforce.

00:40:21.100 He was a politician who, because of his Christian faith, said, I must stand against the slave

00:40:25.780 trade.

00:40:26.060 This is a satanic abomination treating human beings like this.

00:40:29.160 I'm going to use politics and culture and whatever I can do to change the laws.

00:40:35.260 That's our duty as Christians.

00:40:36.960 It's our duty as Americans.

00:40:38.000 And so Bonhoeffer was trying to get the church to see it in his day.

00:40:41.240 And again, many were like, man, we don't want any trouble.

00:40:43.300 We're just going to do church.

00:40:44.300 We'll let the evil take over.

00:40:45.700 We don't care.

00:40:46.280 It's not affecting us.

00:40:47.140 It's affecting the Jews.

00:40:48.840 God judges that if you don't speak up for those who are being crushed.

00:40:52.660 And so I really think Bonhoeffer gives us a picture of what it is to be involved.

00:40:57.240 And again, our fidelity is to God.

00:41:00.400 But the idea that you can somehow be a person of faith and not take your faith into action

00:41:05.420 is preposterous.

00:41:07.040 We have a duty.

00:41:07.860 You know, I know we're not going to be judged for our deeds, but I do think that if you've

00:41:16.720 been, if you have been redeemed, you fundamentally change.

00:41:23.500 No, that's.

00:41:24.300 And you want to serve.

00:41:25.600 You want to do the right things.

00:41:26.940 To that extent, Glenn, you know, when people now say what you just said, like, we're not

00:41:31.400 going to be judged by our deeds.

00:41:32.740 But we are.

00:41:33.600 Part of me says that's not right.

00:41:34.920 We are going to be judged by our deeds.

00:41:36.080 In fact, there are many places in the scripture that are clear as a bell.

00:41:39.300 So, you know, yes, technically I'm saved by faith.

00:41:42.560 But the point is, the scripture says, faith without works is dead.

00:41:46.360 In other words, if you claim to have faith, God knows whether you have faith by how you

00:41:51.680 live.

00:41:51.900 He sees your heart.

00:41:53.220 And if you're not living like Jesus actually defeated death on the cross and you are freed

00:41:57.480 to live for God and his purposes, if you're not living that way, it proves you don't believe

00:42:02.160 it.

00:42:02.420 So you can claim to have faith.

00:42:03.680 He said, well, I signed a statement of faith and I go to that church and I, God is not impressed

00:42:07.060 by that.

00:42:07.660 He looks at your life.

00:42:08.840 Yeah.

00:42:09.120 And I think that this is the heresy that was at the center of the German church during

00:42:13.760 Bonhoeffer's time.

00:42:15.040 It's the same heresy that is at the center of many American churches in our day.

00:42:20.060 They do not understand that God demands of us to live out what we claim to believe.

00:42:27.720 If you say, I believe this and this and this, and God says, okay, well, are you living it?

00:42:31.640 And if you're not living it, God knows you don't believe it.

00:42:34.580 It's a lie.

00:42:35.260 You're fooling yourself.

00:42:36.140 I've been really wrestling with, you know, blessed is the peacemaker.

00:42:39.060 And my understanding of that, that I've, I've kind of settled on is Bonhoeffer was a peacemaker,

00:42:47.840 but not necessarily for his life.

00:42:53.280 You know, if you're going to be a peacemaker, that means you're standing out in front and

00:42:58.820 you're saying, these things are negating the peace of everybody.

00:43:04.440 And I've got to stand against those things, restore that peace for everybody.

00:43:10.780 That doesn't mean your life is going to be peaceful.

00:43:12.460 That's right.

00:43:13.040 It doesn't mean that you shut up and sit down.

00:43:15.180 Right.

00:43:15.580 Right.

00:43:17.680 It's, it's, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's heavy stuff.

00:43:21.020 I mean, I, I, you know, to get back to the movie, like there's so much here.

00:43:24.580 And in, in a movie, you can't tell everything you can't tell, you know, I mean, my book is

00:43:31.640 almost 600 pages long, but they do an amazing job of sort of summing up the issue because

00:43:39.100 you understand in a two hour film, you know, to try to, to try to tell that story, but that's

00:43:44.240 the central story.

00:43:45.160 Will you live out your faith?

00:43:47.960 And by the way, there's a key point too, is that I think a lot of Christians speaking

00:43:51.820 as a Christian, their big excuses, like, Oh, I don't want to get anything wrong.

00:43:55.960 And they, they, they see God as some kind of a moral policeman.

00:43:58.960 Who's kind of like, just looking for you just to get out of line and he's going to whack

00:44:01.780 you.

00:44:02.660 Then you don't know who God is.

00:44:03.940 God loves you.

00:44:05.200 And he wants to say, attaboy.

00:44:07.140 And even if you get it wrong, he's like, yeah, but I see what you tried to do there.

00:44:10.140 It's not about, did you make a mistake?

00:44:11.400 So Bonhoeffer goes out on a limb and says that even if I'm getting something wrong, I've got

00:44:17.360 to do something, I'm going to do my best.

00:44:19.540 And if I'm, if I'm wrong in being involved in this plot to kill Hitler, then I cast myself

00:44:25.000 on the mercy of a merciful God, but to do nothing, I know that that's just an excuse.

00:44:32.380 And so many Christians think that if, if I do nothing, I don't, I won't vote for this

00:44:36.520 guy.

00:44:37.000 I won't for, I'm just going to do nothing to get back to the famous quote, not to act

00:44:43.820 is to act.

00:44:44.680 You don't get some like neutral carve out, you know, Switzerland, their neutrality is

00:44:49.520 despicable.

00:44:51.020 It's not like, well, they were neutral.

00:44:53.240 When you have evil rising and you say, well, I don't want to, I'm not going to take any

00:44:56.600 sides.

00:44:57.340 God's going to judge you for that.

00:44:58.720 You, you, you got to figure this out and you got to do what you can.

00:45:01.220 So that's where we are.

00:45:02.540 So is it true that he comes back and he knows he has to do something?

00:45:10.000 Uh, and he, it seems to me that when he comes back and he's talking to his pupils that he's

00:45:16.920 kind of, he's asking, you know, so pacifist, I mean, can you be a pacifist?

00:45:23.300 And, and it seems to me he's almost looking either to send a signal to them, to let them

00:45:30.340 know, Hey, you're going to hear some things about me maybe.

00:45:33.060 Yeah.

00:45:33.520 Uh, or he's trying to get confirmation, uh, on this theory of his.

00:45:41.660 Well, there's a few things.

00:45:42.660 Let me say, let me say this real quick.

00:45:43.920 Just as we were talking about nationalism a moment ago, right?

00:45:46.360 Like George Washington's idea of nationalism, Lincoln's idea of nationalism is, is this beautiful

00:45:51.340 thing.

00:45:51.760 It's beautiful.

00:45:52.540 It's, it's, it's about freedom.

00:45:53.860 It's about all this great stuff.

00:45:55.220 And then there's evil nationalism, which is Hitler's idea of nationalism.

00:45:59.200 Okay.

00:45:59.620 Similarly with pacifism, Bonhoeffer, when you look at the world of World War one, I mean,

00:46:08.720 the madness of French killing Germans, Germans killing French.

00:46:13.800 At that point, he realized nationalism has overtaken Europe.

00:46:18.500 It leads us to World War one.

00:46:20.320 It's destructive.

00:46:21.480 And in that world, he's a pacifist, but he's not a pacifist like John and Yoko, you know,

00:46:25.860 in the bed.

00:46:26.860 We're not talking about, you know, we're against the Vietnam war.

00:46:29.780 We're talking about real pacifism that says, if it's not a just war, if it's just about

00:46:36.100 chest beating and, you know, Germany wants to take over and that's wrong.

00:46:40.660 So in that world, he's a pacifist.

00:46:42.540 But a lot of liberals in the decades, you know, after Bonhoeffer's death, whatever, they

00:46:48.280 try to pretend like, oh, Bonhoeffer was this, this liberal theological liberal and a pacifist

00:46:52.900 and basically that's nonsense.

00:46:54.900 And I didn't know when I started writing my book, what I would find, but what I found

00:46:59.300 was that that was all nonsense.

00:47:00.880 Bonhoeffer was not any kind of a pacifist along those lines.

00:47:03.640 So we have to be careful when we use terms just like nationalism, when we say pacifism,

00:47:07.840 like just as we would say, if there's a way to avoid war, yes, we want to avoid war.

00:47:13.000 But if there's this horrible aggressor or something like that, we have a duty to defend the innocent,

00:47:19.020 to defend the, you know, which is different from kind of the purest kind of pacifism.

00:47:23.600 Bonhoeffer was not the kind of a pacifist that says, I will not, you know, take up arms if

00:47:29.780 there's an invader or something like that.

00:47:32.000 And so I just think that it just needs to be clarified.

00:47:34.500 At what point does Bonhoeffer really, I mean, he must have known with the pure, pure principle,

00:47:41.500 but at what point does he really know they're coming for me?

00:47:47.320 Well, it's, I can say this and you remember the story, right?

00:47:51.660 So he goes, so he's, he's, he's trying to fight in Germany to try to get the church to wake up,

00:47:56.400 try to get the church to wake up.

00:47:57.280 He sees the church, hasn't done it.

00:47:59.020 So then he starts this, this illegal seminary to train up these young men.

00:48:04.000 What does it really mean to be a disciple of Christ?

00:48:06.000 Not just a fake, you know, church guy, but to live it out, whatever.

00:48:09.080 So he does that for a while.

00:48:10.340 Then the war is coming and he knows he cannot fight in Hitler's war.

00:48:14.860 He knows, but he knows that if he says this publicly being who he is, then the Nazis are

00:48:23.100 going to come down on all the people associated with him.

00:48:25.400 So he can't say it publicly.

00:48:26.420 He needs a way out.

00:48:27.380 He decides, ah, I'll go back to America.

00:48:30.040 I'll sort of escape the trouble and I'll go back to America.

00:48:32.160 So 1939, he goes back to America.

00:48:33.960 And while he's in New York, realizes, oops, I made a mistake.

00:48:39.640 I need to go back to Germany to face whatever I have to face.

00:48:42.960 He didn't know what he's facing.

00:48:44.580 Maybe death, probably death.

00:48:46.180 Who knows?

00:48:47.480 His faith was so strong that he just knew, I just need to go back and God will take care

00:48:51.460 of me.

00:48:51.780 And whatever happens, happens.

00:48:52.580 Is this coming from him or is this coming from, because some say it came really from

00:48:56.900 the advice of the pastor.

00:48:58.280 Absolutely not.

00:48:59.060 No, that's one of the things in the film, you know, there's things in films that that's

00:49:03.460 just not true.

00:49:04.140 No, no, no.

00:49:04.400 It totally came from him.

00:49:05.720 In fact, he probably didn't even meet with them when he came back.

00:49:09.500 That's one of the things in the film that, you know.

00:49:10.960 Because he wasn't there long, was he?

00:49:12.380 He was there 26 days.

00:49:14.260 Yeah.

00:49:14.820 And I will say that, no, it completely comes from him.

00:49:18.960 When I say from him, from him talking to God, from him praying and saying, Lord, lead

00:49:23.440 me.

00:49:23.660 What do I do?

00:49:24.220 What do I do?

00:49:24.860 The Lord led him and it became his conviction.

00:49:27.820 Okay, I need to go back.

00:49:28.840 So what happens now is what is he going back to?

00:49:32.640 He knows the war is coming.

00:49:33.700 He knows he can't fight in the war.

00:49:34.860 What's he going to do?

00:49:35.500 Well, long story short, his brother-in-law is involved in German military intelligence and

00:49:43.020 the Abwehr, German military intelligence, was kind of independent.

00:49:47.860 In fact, they were at odds with the Gestapo because we forget that there was, you know,

00:49:53.480 it's not like living in Kim Jong-un's North Korea.

00:49:55.740 There was still some semblance of law and whatever.

00:49:59.300 So he figures if the war comes and I'm working for my brother-in-law in German military intelligence,

00:50:04.700 it'll look like I'm serving the Third Reich.

00:50:06.840 It's a time of war and I'm doing what I can and so on and so forth.

00:50:09.540 So he does that.

00:50:10.440 And while he's doing that, so the Nazis are kind of leaving him alone and leaving the Abwehr

00:50:16.940 alone, you know, it's kind of like the FBI and the CIA.

00:50:19.240 They're kind of, you know, and he gets involved in the course of his actions effectively as

00:50:25.060 a spy.

00:50:25.720 He gets involved in trying to get seven Jews out of Germany into neutral Switzerland to

00:50:32.340 save their lives.

00:50:33.440 Bottom line, it's called Operation Seven.

00:50:36.380 And in the course of that, there's some financial irregularities because the wonderfully neutral

00:50:41.980 Swiss require money to take the Jews.

00:50:45.560 Isn't that great?

00:50:46.160 And that's when the Gestapo, they kind of notice, oh, there's some irregularity.

00:50:53.780 So Bonhoeffer and his brother-in-law and a few others are sent to prison, but it's just

00:51:00.740 for that.

00:51:01.780 No one knows about the plot to kill Hitler.

00:51:05.700 So he's in prison.

00:51:07.340 He's treated rather well during the season.

00:51:10.220 He's in Tegel military prison.

00:51:11.580 It's not like the Gestapo prison or whatever.

00:51:13.160 His uncle, because he's so well-connected, is the military commandant over all of Berlin.

00:51:19.380 So when all the guards and everybody find out, oh, this is the nephew of like the big,

00:51:22.960 big, big, big boss.

00:51:23.800 So he's treated okay.

00:51:25.520 And he's under the impression, everybody's under the impression that they will be able to

00:51:29.460 beat this rap, that this is just a money laundering thing and he'll be able to, he will get out.

00:51:35.440 And he gets engaged.

00:51:36.880 Now, none of that's in the film, but he gets engaged and it's this love affair and it's so

00:51:40.560 beautiful.

00:51:40.860 And he's in prison writing letters to his fiance.

00:51:42.720 It's so beautiful and he has hope.

00:51:45.280 And obviously it's all in my book because it's so moving.

00:51:48.200 It's beautiful.

00:51:49.300 So he's in there while he's in there, as we've been saying, July 20th, 1944,

00:51:58.120 the Wolf is Shantz Valkyrie plot happens.

00:52:02.560 The bomb goes off.

00:52:04.580 Hitler is not killed.

00:52:05.700 And not only do they fail to kill Hitler, but suddenly now the whole conspiracy is exposed

00:52:11.900 for the first time ever, because it's been going on for years.

00:52:15.620 Nobody knows.

00:52:16.760 Suddenly it's exposed.

00:52:17.940 So at that point, to answer the question, finally, that's when Bonhoeffer knows probably my days

00:52:24.340 are numbered now.

00:52:25.340 He didn't know for sure, because at the end, you know, at the end of my book, I talk about

00:52:29.020 how, as the Nazis realized they're probably losing the war, they want to keep a few high

00:52:33.600 level prisoners as bargaining chips.

00:52:35.820 So there's a good chance that Bonhoeffer will survive.

00:52:39.240 But at the very, very, very end, it's chilling, the Zossen files are exposed, and it's clear

00:52:48.460 as a bell to Hitler who's guilty, and he just gives the order, they must be executed.

00:52:55.820 And so on April 9th, 1945, Bonhoeffer is hanged at Flossenberg Concentration Camp, taken there.

00:53:01.440 I mean, he's only there 12 hours.

00:53:02.580 He's taken 100 miles in a car specifically for this, you know, fake trial through the

00:53:08.320 night, and then to be hanged in the morning.

00:53:10.880 And, but I mean, at the end of my book, I talk about Bonhoeffer's view of death, and this

00:53:15.060 is what's so beautiful about it, is that he knew, it's not like he hoped, he knew that

00:53:20.940 Jesus had defeated death, and that he is now going home.

00:53:25.760 Like, you know, a lot of times we say this, and it kind of sounds nice, he knew this is

00:53:29.460 true.

00:53:29.800 And if you know that's true, as every Christian should know, you live differently, you live

00:53:36.440 heroically, you live freely and bravely.

00:53:38.520 And so he, to me, is the ultimate model.

00:53:40.780 And what he's saying to all of us is like, this is for you, this is not just for a few,

00:53:44.160 this is not extra credit Christianity, this is the real thing.

00:53:46.440 If you believe this, you're going to live differently, and you'll die differently.

00:53:50.960 And it's so, so ultimately...

00:53:52.180 That's how we, one of the reasons why we know when exactly he died, right?

00:53:55.960 Didn't he thank his executioner?

00:53:57.600 Um, not exactly, but sort of.

00:54:02.320 In other words, there was this kind of...

00:54:04.560 Kindness.

00:54:05.360 It's in my book that he died with this kind of...

00:54:10.520 I mean, listen, even if we don't get this transcript that says this, because there's

00:54:16.320 been some dispute about that transcript, it doesn't matter.

00:54:18.660 If you look at Bonhoeffer's life carefully, this is who he was.

00:54:22.520 He knew he's going into the presence of God.

00:54:25.880 He knew he's going home.

00:54:27.140 This is not like sort of, I hope.

00:54:29.180 He knew it.

00:54:30.320 And people who were with him in the last weeks, and again, I just read my own book, reread it.

00:54:36.020 So many different people saying exactly the same thing about what he was like under duress.

00:54:42.320 How beautiful has, how his soul shone in this dark environment, and how they look to him

00:54:49.380 for courage and hope.

00:54:51.180 And I mean, you can't fake that when things are really, really, really bleak.

00:54:55.080 So it's ultimately very beautiful to see like, that's real, that that's God's will for every

00:55:00.980 one of us.

00:55:01.460 That's not like some fake stories we tell.

00:55:03.660 It's history.

00:55:05.060 It's real.

00:55:05.440 All right, let me take you to some people that are upset.

00:55:15.880 Relatives of Bonhoeffer.

00:55:17.480 Oh, yeah.

00:55:18.240 Distant relatives who are guaranteed pro-Hamas lunatics.

00:55:24.060 So these are Jew-hating lunatics claiming to speak for the man who died for the Jews of

00:55:29.680 Europe, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

00:55:31.000 I mean, let's be clear.

00:55:31.780 So relatives of Bonhoeffer wrote that he would never have seen himself anywhere near the

00:55:36.860 right-wing extremist, violent movements that are trying to appropriate him today.

00:55:42.440 Yeah.

00:55:42.640 Oh, the violent movements.

00:55:43.960 What's the, what's the violent movement?

00:55:45.220 Like, what are we, what are we talking about?

00:55:46.460 What's the, what's the violent movement?

00:55:48.320 Antifa?

00:55:49.000 Oh, sorry.

00:55:50.120 That's Marxist left.

00:55:51.220 Who are we talking about?

00:55:52.580 Look, these people, you've dealt with them longer than I have.

00:55:56.680 They're unhinged.

00:55:57.960 There's no talking to them.

00:55:59.500 They have their view.

00:56:00.320 It's a free country, but they're, they're, they're crazy.

00:56:02.900 Listen, when my book came out in 2010, you had me on your show.

00:56:08.300 Can you imagine how the left-wing lunatics who had their own private Bonhoeffer, this

00:56:15.440 fictional Bonhoeffer that they had created, to have me write a big book that's selling

00:56:20.660 a million copies and I go on the Glenn Beck show, that right-wing neo-Nazi Glenn Beck.

00:56:27.240 And, but they, they don't care about the facts.

00:56:29.840 They just know they hate you.

00:56:31.640 They hate Trump.

00:56:32.780 They hate, like, they don't know what they think.

00:56:34.440 All they know is somebody other than, than them has put out a book on Bonhoeffer.

00:56:41.760 And so they're going to just demonize and demonize.

00:56:43.860 That's kind of what's happening here.

00:56:44.980 And again, the irony, I mean, it's, it's, it's horrible irony.

00:56:49.240 The liberals who go to see this film are going to love the film.

00:56:53.340 This is not some right-wing film.

00:56:55.520 I mean, the guy who wrote the screenplay and directed it is, is not even conservative.

00:57:00.880 He's probably liberal.

00:57:02.380 I mean, he's, so he made a film for everybody.

00:57:05.180 They made this beautiful film and these lunatics are coming out and trying to brand it like,

00:57:11.400 you know, it's some neo-Nazi.

00:57:14.700 It, I mean, again, people who see the film, it's going to be pretty clear because I guarantee

00:57:18.400 you tons of liberals aren't reading this junk and they're going to go see the film and

00:57:22.520 they're going to tell all their friends.

00:57:23.480 It was an awesome film.

00:57:25.320 Christianity Today.

00:57:26.880 Oh yeah.

00:57:27.300 Well, they've gone over to the dark side in case you didn't know that.

00:57:29.480 No, I, no, I, you know, they also provided some pushback.

00:57:33.260 Here's what they said.

00:57:34.540 What kind of connection is the film making by suggesting that Bonhoeffer changed his mind

00:57:40.480 about the narrow way?

00:57:42.360 Explain what the narrow way is.

00:57:43.940 Well, you see Christianity Today, actually, you know, in all seriousness, they're getting that

00:57:48.340 wrong, but I can understand when somebody is making a movie.

00:57:53.000 You know, they play fast and loose with some stuff.

00:57:55.600 And it's true that in the film, you know, you could get the idea that Bonhoeffer is saying

00:58:02.220 like, yeah, well, the heck with this, you know, Christian morality, Hitler needs killing,

00:58:07.060 you know, now that that's not true.

00:58:08.740 Right.

00:58:09.000 But you could see that if people aren't sensitive to the whole thing that they would say, well,

00:58:13.060 it sort of implies that that's not true.

00:58:16.260 I mean, it's not true of Bonhoeffer.

00:58:18.240 It's not true of the film.

00:58:20.260 I mean, Angel Studios is distributing the film.

00:58:24.000 They take faith seriously.

00:58:25.960 This is not about like, well, we don't care.

00:58:27.600 We just want to make a movie.

00:58:29.480 But if you're looking for something like Christianity Today, they're just looking for something

00:58:33.580 to find, a thread to pull.

00:58:36.060 So they say this crazy stuff.

00:58:37.900 I mean, in the film, the marketing, and this is Angel Studios, right?

00:58:41.380 They, you know, they kind of want to make it like he's a, it's a sexy spy thriller and

00:58:44.660 Bonhoeffer's an assassin and he's got a gun or whatever like that.

00:58:47.540 That's called marketing, right?

00:58:48.980 Right.

00:58:49.380 That's called marketing.

00:58:50.480 If you watch the film.

00:58:51.220 Come in and see the movie.

00:58:52.080 Right.

00:58:52.500 Come in and see the movie.

00:58:53.400 But so they kind of act like, oh yeah, this kind of right wing crazy cabal that they want

00:58:58.460 to incite political violence.

00:59:00.260 I mean, the left is, they're unhinged and they write stuff like this.

00:59:05.620 So here's, they finish this.

00:59:06.800 Perhaps it's suggesting that the audience should also lay down their political naivety and take

00:59:13.760 up arms.

00:59:14.640 Yeah.

00:59:14.680 Perhaps it's suggesting the way of Jesus is too soft for the hard realities of modern

00:59:20.380 conflict and should be replaced by a more realistic approach.

00:59:24.400 Yeah.

00:59:24.760 I mean, of course that's, that's nonsense, but what is interesting, of course, there is,

00:59:29.020 there's truth in every lie.

00:59:30.520 I think that there are people and I'm among them who feel like there has been this, how

00:59:38.280 do we put this?

00:59:39.020 There is a warrior side of Jesus, right?

00:59:42.320 That, that he, he turns over the tables in the, in, in the temple and he rails against

00:59:47.940 the religious leaders.

00:59:49.220 They don't know that Jesus.

00:59:50.900 They kind of want Jesus is very gentlemanly.

00:59:53.060 Right.

00:59:53.200 And so what their version of Jesus is, is just like all of the, like the Prussian military

00:59:57.640 class that said, we're too gentlemanly to push back too hard against Hitler.

01:00:02.580 He's the head of the government.

01:00:03.980 In other words, there's a time to say, wait a minute, this is evil.

01:00:07.620 We got to do something about this, right?

01:00:10.160 But Christianity today and others, they're not interested in these nuances.

01:00:14.220 So they just have to say, oh, you're saying, you know, throw away your Christian morality.

01:00:18.580 I would say on the contrary, it is pick up your true Christian morality and stand against

01:00:24.200 evil.

01:00:25.020 Now I'm not talking about with a gun, but stand against evil.

01:00:28.620 The Christians in the middle, the Christians in the Middle East, they stand.

01:00:32.560 Of course.

01:00:33.180 They're, they're not blowing people up.

01:00:35.160 They stand.

01:00:35.980 They speak up against it.

01:00:37.720 They do what they can to fight against it as well.

01:00:40.900 Yeah.

01:00:41.160 People give their lives for their faith.

01:00:43.260 And again, I think that there are people, you know, like the editors of Christianity

01:00:46.180 today, they kind of act like, well, that's quaint stuff from the past.

01:00:48.940 Now it's just about being nice and agreeing with people or some, some preposterous thing

01:00:53.000 like that.

01:00:53.280 By the way, what happens if you don't stand against evil?

01:00:56.180 Children's bodies are being mutilated.

01:00:58.240 We have sex trafficking on our Southern border.

01:01:00.200 Does it not bother you?

01:01:01.260 That 11 and 12 year old girls are being raped?

01:01:03.100 Doesn't bother you?

01:01:04.180 If that doesn't bother you, I don't know what kind of Christian you are.

01:01:07.140 So, you know, I'm just stunned at, you know, you talk about naivete.

01:01:11.320 Wow.

01:01:11.880 Like that's, that's not, that's not politics.

01:01:15.420 That's saving children on our own border.

01:01:18.440 Yeah.

01:01:18.680 In the same article points right directly to you, Metaxas continues to marshal Bonhoeffer's

01:01:26.080 work toward his project of politics as the ultimate end of theology.

01:01:31.960 I mean, that is a vile lie.

01:01:37.820 And what's interesting though, is that they really believe it.

01:01:40.820 You can tell they, they believe this.

01:01:42.780 And I think to myself, wow, imagine we're abolitionists.

01:01:46.560 We care about blacks enslaved being treated like scum and animals.

01:01:52.520 We get involved politically because we believe it's our moral duty to stand against that.

01:01:58.420 I'm here to tell you, there were people in the 19th century who would say exactly what

01:02:02.180 Christianity today is saying.

01:02:03.440 Like, how dare you get political?

01:02:05.780 Just have your nice little church services and let the blacks go to hell.

01:02:09.400 We don't care what happens to them.

01:02:10.760 Just do your nice little Christian thing.

01:02:12.720 And you think, if I'm going to live out my faith, the first thing I'm going to do is

01:02:16.420 speak up for those who are being treated this way.

01:02:18.940 And so Christianity today, anytime you do anything that leans toward the political, they

01:02:23.900 just try to demonize you.

01:02:25.020 They don't actually think, are you trying to help people?

01:02:27.760 I mean that, you know, so again, this idea of that we're not supposed to be politically

01:02:32.340 involved.

01:02:33.280 Trust me, the editors of Christianity today are totally politically involved on the other

01:02:37.200 side.

01:02:37.480 They are helping, you know, the communist globalist left either by doing nothing or if

01:02:45.680 they can actually help them by helping them.

01:02:47.180 So they're hypocrites because they're very politically involved.

01:02:49.700 But when people like you or like me get involved politically, they say, oh, you're just a culture

01:02:55.440 warrior.

01:02:56.140 You don't care about God.

01:02:58.040 And I think, well, you know, God's going to judge me about who I care about.

01:03:02.160 I think in the last six months, anybody who is a Christian had to notice that at least

01:03:08.440 to use our founders words, the divine providence that happened.

01:03:13.980 Oh, I mean, it is.

01:03:15.480 That was such a gift.

01:03:16.540 I mean, and I'll tell you something, you know, when that bullet hit Donald Trump's ear and

01:03:22.340 we saw blood, that was God's mercy saying to us, do you get it now?

01:03:27.880 He should be dead.

01:03:31.660 But he's not.

01:03:32.580 In America, you should be dead.

01:03:36.760 You deserve to be dead.

01:03:38.940 But I have preserved you for my purposes in history.

01:03:43.440 Now go to work.

01:03:44.420 And to me, it's like when George Washington, you know, survives the Battle of Brooklyn.

01:03:50.340 Okay.

01:03:50.620 The miracle of the fog.

01:03:52.960 Okay.

01:03:53.520 It's a miracle of God.

01:03:55.000 They ought to have been strangled in the cradle.

01:03:58.140 Liberty is over.

01:03:59.280 The overwhelming 400 British ships, you know, parked outside Staten Island should have crushed

01:04:06.580 the Continental Army.

01:04:07.960 Game over.

01:04:09.100 America never comes into being.

01:04:10.660 God preserves them and so they can fight on and on and on and on.

01:04:15.600 And we win liberty and independence.

01:04:18.220 That's what just happened in America.

01:04:20.180 This election, it was God's extremely merciful hand preserving us so that now we can fight

01:04:29.040 and we can win back the liberties that we've lost and we can recatechize the culture and

01:04:34.520 teach people what is liberty?

01:04:36.700 What is self-government?

01:04:37.780 Why should we be dancing in the streets with gratitude that God would allow us to have

01:04:42.500 liberty and that it's worth fighting for and it's worth dying for?

01:04:46.120 And so I think we're in an extraordinary moment in history.

01:04:50.080 And let's, to reiterate, the Trump-hating, America-hating liberals don't like it and they'll

01:04:58.640 say anything they can.

01:04:59.980 There's a level of desperation.

01:05:01.220 It's amazing to me because I don't have any loyalty to Donald Trump.

01:05:10.360 My loyalty is to the Constitution.

01:05:12.660 And as long as he remains loyal to that and those ideals, I'm with him.

01:05:17.780 Yeah.

01:05:17.980 But if he starts violating the Bill of Rights, we would be the first ones screaming.

01:05:23.560 Right.

01:05:23.760 You're darn right.

01:05:24.680 Right.

01:05:24.820 It's really amazing.

01:05:32.740 What is Christian nationalism?

01:05:35.220 Christian nationalism is an invented term, invented by the devil to demonize actual Christian

01:05:42.920 faith.

01:05:43.340 In other words, Bonhoeffer used the phrase faith in action.

01:05:46.760 When you put your faith in action, the devil doesn't like it.

01:05:50.560 And all of those people who are playing on his team, they don't like it.

01:05:53.360 They want your faith to be in some little neutral corner that has no effect on the world

01:05:57.760 outside your little church or whatever.

01:05:59.920 So they say, oh, you're a Christian nationalist.

01:06:01.820 You're living out your faith.

01:06:02.760 Yes.

01:06:03.280 When people try to abolish slavery, you know, they would say, oh, yeah, they're being Christian

01:06:07.440 nationalists.

01:06:08.220 Why don't they just accept slavery and just do their little church service?

01:06:11.700 And they said, well, because we can't.

01:06:12.800 Because of my faith, I need to stand against the evil of slavery.

01:06:15.460 And it goes down the line.

01:06:17.300 And so we're living in a time now where those on the left have to demonize.

01:06:21.140 They have to create a term because it's like, oh, you're not supposed to live out your faith.

01:06:24.680 You're just supposed to have it locked in your head.

01:06:26.740 And it has no actual effect beyond your head.

01:06:30.280 And it's amazing to me that they miss that they have created a faith, a church, the planet

01:06:37.840 or transgenderism or whatever is their God.

01:06:42.420 And they that's their nationalism.

01:06:45.180 They're not saying, oh, the planet is warming and I worship the planet.

01:06:49.420 Let's not do anything.

01:06:51.420 Well, and you understand, too, like these terms, they're just silly terms like nationalism.

01:06:55.920 Evil is evil.

01:06:56.820 So if it's nationalistic evil or globalistic evil, in this case, it's globalistic evil.

01:07:01.820 OK, you've got these globalists who are against the idea.

01:07:04.840 I know how the idea of a nation can go wrong, but I also know how the idea of a nation can

01:07:09.140 go right.

01:07:10.420 They're not interested.

01:07:11.760 They have a globalist agenda and they are at war.

01:07:15.680 Let's be clear, as Americans, they're at war with the sovereignty of America.

01:07:19.580 OK, patriots have died so that we could have a free nation.

01:07:22.920 We could be we could be a shining city on the hill for the whole world to look at and say

01:07:26.680 what they have in America.

01:07:27.900 I want that.

01:07:28.780 That's beautiful.

01:07:30.080 My parents came here, you know, from Europe, from war torn Europe, because they thought,

01:07:33.500 could we live in America?

01:07:35.140 That's so beautiful.

01:07:36.100 It's so amazing.

01:07:37.400 These folks are at war with that America.

01:07:39.220 They want a globalist tyranny, basically.

01:07:43.220 And so what do they do?

01:07:44.260 They create this term Christian nationalism to make it sound like nationalism.

01:07:48.420 I mean, I hear this a lot where they say, oh, I'm about the kingdom of heaven.

01:07:53.560 I'm not about, you know, America.

01:07:55.840 I'm about the king.

01:07:56.580 But that's like saying, like, I'm about Jesus.

01:07:58.700 I'm not about my wife and my daughter.

01:08:00.560 No, no, no.

01:08:01.140 I'm about anything.

01:08:02.160 Wait a minute.

01:08:02.920 If you love Jesus, you're going to love your family more.

01:08:05.940 But they're creating this preposterous zero-sum game that if you love America, it means you

01:08:11.200 don't love God.

01:08:12.740 And I think, no, if I love God, it's going to make me love my country more.

01:08:16.540 It's going to make me love my community more.

01:08:18.100 It's going to make me love my family more.

01:08:20.120 They, this is classic Marxism.

01:08:21.780 It's a zero-sum game.

01:08:22.660 You have to pick this or this.

01:08:24.680 That's never been the case.

01:08:25.840 It's those in this country, the Black Robe Regiment, which I first learned about from

01:08:29.700 you, because they loved God, they loved the idea of, imagine if we could have a free country,

01:08:35.240 how beautiful that would be, how it would reflect God's values in history.

01:08:40.040 So it's a totally different thing.

01:08:41.320 I think that I understand it to some degree in Europe, the European elite.

01:08:47.400 Okay.

01:08:47.560 They don't have this.

01:08:48.880 They never had this.

01:08:50.140 They don't understand what makes America.

01:08:52.620 You know what I mean?

01:08:53.160 Um, those who are American, I can't excuse them for their own ignorance.

01:09:01.840 I know they were raised in a school system that didn't teach the principles of America,

01:09:06.960 but all you have to do is read the constitution, the declaration of independence and the bill

01:09:11.880 of rights, and you get it.

01:09:13.720 Okay.

01:09:14.380 I am proud of my country.

01:09:17.100 I think we're the most amazing country.

01:09:19.620 We've also been some of the darkest people in the world.

01:09:22.200 Of course.

01:09:22.660 But we're an amazing country when we live up to those values that are enshrined in those

01:09:28.840 documents.

01:09:29.840 I'm not, I'm not national because I love America.

01:09:34.020 I love the principles of America and in those documents.

01:09:39.600 And that's what makes us so great.

01:09:43.400 They don't understand a world without the mixing of church and state.

01:09:49.520 They, they still are looking at France, uh, you know, at the time of the revolution going,

01:09:56.120 Oh, that's evil.

01:09:57.700 That's God.

01:09:58.340 No, we're not that.

01:10:00.260 Well, look, you, you understand this.

01:10:01.760 You have to be rather ignorant and they are, they, they don't, they don't know.

01:10:06.240 They're not pushed back.

01:10:07.020 They don't know any of this stuff.

01:10:08.400 They don't know any of this stuff that you've been speaking about for all this time with

01:10:11.680 it and all your audience knows about, they don't know this stuff.

01:10:13.700 But here's the good news.

01:10:15.080 Many, many Americans in large part, because of you, a little bit because of me, they know

01:10:19.140 about this stuff and they're not buying this garbage.

01:10:21.700 And so the question is, will enough Americans know the truth to fight against the lunacy?

01:10:27.060 And I really think, especially with regard to the last election, we have just enough to

01:10:34.440 win.

01:10:34.720 It's kind of like saying, I always say in my new book, it's called religionless Christianity.

01:10:38.360 And I say, if you went to George Washington in 1776 and said, Hey, hey, George, how's

01:10:42.400 it going?

01:10:43.120 You know, he would say it's going very poorly.

01:10:46.080 But if providence be with us in this cause of liberty, we will fight on because we believe

01:10:50.720 that God can give us the victory.

01:10:53.120 Our job is to do our job.

01:10:54.320 Our job is to fight for what is beautiful and good and true.

01:10:58.000 And if we don't fight, well, then it's on us.

01:11:00.920 And there are a lot of Americans who are just like, who cares?

01:11:03.760 I don't want to fight.

01:11:04.520 I don't want to take it.

01:11:05.080 I mean, there were plenty, uh, Tories, there were plenty, uh, people just who, who didn't

01:11:11.520 care, but there were just enough in, you know, during the revolution, just enough willing

01:11:17.520 to fight.

01:11:18.940 And that small group won freedom for everybody.

01:11:23.680 And so here we are.

01:11:24.980 And that's the way it always is.

01:11:27.320 I mean, no, it's, it's amazing.

01:11:30.020 I don't like when people make Donald Trump into our savior.

01:11:35.960 I already have one.

01:11:37.420 But I also, um, I also understand, uh, how the Lord is using this guy.

01:11:47.120 And some people are like, how could he possibly?

01:11:50.300 Because I'm sure the Lord asked a lot of people before he asked him, you know what I mean?

01:11:57.540 And he's like, Oh God, who's next?

01:12:00.120 Don, will you stand?

01:12:02.400 Will you stand?

01:12:04.000 That's it.

01:12:05.000 He, he, he, he's not putting the most righteous person in.

01:12:10.520 He's putting anyone willing to stand.

01:12:13.240 And how many of us, I mean, that's, that's, I think the lasting legacy you have given me

01:12:19.320 is a understanding of not to act is to act and how important it is to stand because God's

01:12:29.560 not going to hold it.

01:12:30.460 We have a responsibility and it's not my, it's not my church that's driving it.

01:12:36.660 It's my faith in God that's driving it.

01:12:39.760 It's my understanding of who Jesus Christ is and what I owe him and can never repay.

01:12:48.400 But I'm going to, I know he has a plan.

01:12:52.420 Yeah.

01:12:53.180 I just, I know, I don't know what it is, but I know I want to help pave that road for whatever

01:13:00.560 he's doing.

01:13:01.420 That's the point.

01:13:02.260 And that's why I say about Washington, you do your job, you fight for what is right and

01:13:05.880 true.

01:13:06.160 You do the best you can.

01:13:07.660 The results ultimately are in God's hands, but to do nothing, I mean, imagine how privileged

01:13:14.260 and out of touch some people must be to think, oh, I don't need to do anything.

01:13:18.420 Patriots have suffered and bled and died so that we can talk about this stuff and we can

01:13:23.100 have the freedom that we have to think that I need to do nothing.

01:13:26.100 Hand me your phone.

01:13:27.000 Can you imagine what Tyndale would have said about this?

01:13:31.300 Oh gosh.

01:13:31.960 And none of us read the, I mean, few of us read the scriptures on, we have every version

01:13:38.840 of the scriptures, every version in every language.

01:13:42.960 Tyndale was burned at the stake for a few pages.

01:13:48.820 That's, I mean, the choices we make are remarkable and how fast we forget.

01:13:54.620 Well, again, this is, you know, we're all on a journey, you know, we didn't ask to be

01:13:59.600 born at this time in history, but the Lord put us here now.

01:14:03.000 And our job is to say, Lord, what do you want me to do now?

01:14:05.740 And I'll do the best I can.

01:14:06.960 Don't you find, when my father died, I reviewed his life and he didn't serve in World War II.

01:14:16.420 He just turned 18 right at the end of it and he joined the Marines, but he had flat feet

01:14:23.560 so he couldn't go.

01:14:25.100 Okay.

01:14:25.460 So he missed that.

01:14:28.340 He didn't fight in any war and he, and he really was living in the greatest time in American

01:14:36.980 history and we lived in Seattle, which didn't really have the bussing issues and the black,

01:14:44.980 you know, issues back and forth.

01:14:48.340 And I thought, who could my dad have been if he lived in a time that pushed him up against

01:14:57.180 the wall?

01:14:57.740 I find, I find this time to be such an honor that we've been, that we're here and we can

01:15:10.520 see I'm a coward or I'm not.

01:15:15.100 I mean, it's scary because you don't know what your breaking point is.

01:15:18.840 You know, you don't know, is something right around the corner that's going to make me go,

01:15:23.100 okay, okay, I give.

01:15:24.020 Um, but the time we've had, God doesn't, these things, if you're awake, they don't happen

01:15:34.440 as fast as history makes them look to be.

01:15:38.340 That's where most people are.

01:15:41.300 They, they, Hitler's elected and they have no idea.

01:15:44.680 They didn't see it coming.

01:15:46.080 And so all of a sudden they have to make a choice and they make the wrong choice.

01:15:49.740 But some of us who are awake have had years to prepare.

01:15:55.760 That must be terrifying for the other side.

01:15:58.300 Well, listen, I know, I say emphatically, God called me in my mother's womb to write

01:16:03.780 this Bonhoeffer book.

01:16:04.780 It wasn't my idea.

01:16:06.140 I know that God called me to write this book for such a time as this.

01:16:09.540 And when I was writing it, I didn't know that I was writing it for such a time as this,

01:16:12.500 but God knew.

01:16:13.200 And God has prepared me.

01:16:16.080 And the fact is here we are, we are here now and we get to live our lives to God's glory.

01:16:24.640 And what a, what an honor, what a beautiful, beautiful thing.

01:16:28.000 And the thing is we can trust God with the details, you know, whether we die tomorrow

01:16:31.280 or we live, who cares?

01:16:33.380 God knows and we can trust him.

01:16:35.560 And I think that that's one of the reasons the story of Bonhoeffer is so beautiful to me

01:16:39.160 is that he lived it out.

01:16:40.620 He didn't just talk about it.

01:16:41.680 He was given an opportunity by God to live it out and to show us what that looks like.

01:16:46.680 And that is profoundly inspiring to so many people.

01:16:51.160 So again, you know, I'm stunned that this film is out now.

01:16:55.620 I'm stunned that it's as wonderful as it is because it didn't need to be.

01:16:59.780 It's wonderful.

01:17:01.000 And it's going to, it's going to inspire a lot of people.

01:17:04.340 And, you know, where we go from here, I don't know, but I just, I just can't believe

01:17:10.420 we're here, frankly.

01:17:11.120 I can't believe we're here.

01:17:13.520 More with Eric Metaxas in just a second.

01:17:16.040 When you're facing evil, do you do nothing?

01:17:19.040 Do you hide?

01:17:21.080 Or do you have a responsibility to act, stop evil, or at least protect those around you

01:17:27.380 from that evil?

01:17:28.580 Honestly, I don't know why the Berna launcher is not in every school room in America, or

01:17:36.260 at least every school.

01:17:37.580 If you're a teacher, some gunman is starting to kill people down the hall or wherever.

01:17:43.540 If you have a Berna launcher, you could open the door just a little bit and shoot down the

01:17:47.660 direction for 60 feet.

01:17:49.240 You just have to be within like six or eight feet.

01:17:52.900 If you can get that there, it's tear gas.

01:17:56.860 Yes, some of the kids might cry, but I guarantee you the tears are going to be a lot worse if

01:18:00.920 somebody doesn't stop that guy.

01:18:02.580 You can use this in schools.

01:18:04.320 I don't know if anybody is, but they should be.

01:18:07.800 You can take an attacker and paralyze them on the floor.

01:18:11.900 They're not going to be able to do anything for 40 minutes.

01:18:14.900 That gives the time for police to arrive and handle the situation.

01:18:19.600 Gives you time to escape and get away from that danger without killing anybody.

01:18:25.460 Use it in your home.

01:18:26.440 Have it in your car.

01:18:28.080 If you're a teacher, ask your school, why don't we have a Berna launcher?

01:18:31.260 Berna, B-Y-R-N-A dot com slash Glenn.

01:18:34.680 Get an exclusive 10% discount.

01:18:36.920 That's Berna dot com slash Glenn.

01:18:41.360 I think it's interesting that you know me, I've I hang out with all religions and I really

01:18:51.060 love all.

01:18:52.440 I mean, not you know, there's some religions in California I'm not real hip with, but I

01:18:58.480 love going to other people's services because I can, I can speak, I can barely speak English

01:19:05.220 and it's the only language I actually speak, but I can, I can speak different spiritual

01:19:11.520 languages.

01:19:12.360 I know what people are saying, even if the words are different, you know?

01:19:15.840 And for a long time, uh, it was, it was, everybody was guarding themselves from sheep stealers.

01:19:27.220 As some of the pastors say, you're going to steal my sheep.

01:19:30.400 Um, and I could break down that wall cause nobody wants to be in my faith.

01:19:34.640 I mean, you know, we're like the Jews of Christianity.

01:19:38.160 So, uh, so I could get past some of those gates and talk to people and in the 15 years

01:19:48.200 ago, it would still break down to at the, at the end, push it, you know, and it would

01:19:55.340 still break down to, well, we have our faith and you're kind of outside of our faith and,

01:20:02.040 and these people are outside of our faith.

01:20:04.440 Where now, I mean, I felt Amish recently, you know, when watching them, I'm like, you

01:20:12.480 know what?

01:20:12.980 That's a really good faith because look at how they're implementing it.

01:20:18.340 And I feel like God is saying, yeah, I'm going to work all this out, guys.

01:20:22.320 I'm going to work all this out.

01:20:24.040 You have to be doing my work.

01:20:27.480 And is that kind of what religionless Christianity is?

01:20:32.060 Yeah, I think, yeah.

01:20:33.300 So my new book, I mean, the, the, the book that I wrote a couple of years ago is called

01:20:36.880 Letter to the American Church, which, which talks about the parallels between what happened

01:20:41.040 in Germany and where we are now.

01:20:42.420 And I had more to say, and I used a Bonhoeffer term for the title of the book called Religionless

01:20:47.180 Christianity.

01:20:47.660 And all he's trying to say.

01:20:49.100 Does that piss a lot of people off?

01:20:50.400 Oh, you have no idea.

01:20:51.880 And I kind of did it in part to piss them off because I thought to myself, listen,

01:20:55.400 and they pissed them people off when he did it.

01:20:57.840 Well, that's, you know, what's interesting.

01:20:59.780 I mean, it's, we don't have time to get into it, but the bottom line is this Bonhoeffer

01:21:04.640 and, and again, rereading my Bonhoeffer book recently, I saw it more clearly than I've

01:21:09.700 seen it in years.

01:21:10.700 He was consistent from when he was in his early twenties till the day he died.

01:21:16.580 He knew at the heart of Christian faith, what, what that really is.

01:21:22.900 And he was constantly trying to teach about like, what is it really not just like, oh,

01:21:27.160 you were sent to these intellectual theological ideas and you're a Christian.

01:21:30.740 No, you have to really have this personal relationship with Jesus.

01:21:36.340 It's a whole, you know, he understood that as a young man and it got deeper and deeper

01:21:39.700 and deeper.

01:21:40.100 And at the end of his life, 1944, he's in prison and he's writing these letters to his

01:21:44.800 best friend who understood him like nobody.

01:21:48.840 I mean, just, so he's almost using this shorthand or whatever.

01:21:52.060 And in one letter, he's basically saying that we needed a religionless Christianity.

01:21:55.820 In other words, we had all of this religion.

01:21:58.420 We had all this, like, I'm going to the Lutheran church and I'm going to, you know, and he thought

01:22:02.100 that did not stand against evil.

01:22:04.440 We needed to live out our faith.

01:22:06.560 Correct.

01:22:06.880 Like the saints of old, like the martyrs of today, we needed to live out our faith 24

01:22:11.180 seven.

01:22:11.660 We need to put our faith in action and the German church didn't.

01:22:15.880 And he says, if we'd had a truly religionless Christianity, in other words, all this, all

01:22:20.560 this liturgical stuff and the trappings, and what I write about in my book, and I've been

01:22:26.580 talking about everywhere is whom did Jesus rail against?

01:22:32.640 The Hellenistic philosophers, the pagans?

01:22:35.300 No.

01:22:35.640 The most religious people of his day were the ones that he called a brood of vipers.

01:22:42.700 You are of your father, the devil.

01:22:44.500 In other words, you can know the Bible backwards and forwards.

01:22:47.800 You can do all the religious stuff, do all the stuff.

01:22:51.280 And then when God sends his son into your midst, you murder him.

01:22:56.440 That's satanic.

01:22:57.220 He knew that all these religious trappings not only are worth nothing, but they can be

01:23:03.460 marshaled by the devil for his purposes.

01:23:06.480 And so Bonhoeffer saw that all this religious stuff in Germany opened the door to the devil

01:23:12.500 and opened the door to the evil of the death camps.

01:23:15.420 And he's saying we needed a religionless Christianity, people to actually live out their faith.

01:23:20.740 And in every generation, in Jesus's generation, in every single generation, there are people

01:23:25.940 of all the trappings of religion.

01:23:27.120 They're not living it out.

01:23:29.800 And so Bonhoeffer dares to say that.

01:23:31.460 But it's in a letter to a friend.

01:23:33.520 And all the liberal agnostic academics, after his death, they kind of grab this and they

01:23:39.680 kind of create their own fictionalized version of he was drifting into this kind of secular

01:23:43.700 humanist ethics.

01:23:45.400 Complete nonsense.

01:23:46.660 Total nonsense.

01:23:47.460 And when I wrote my book, I realized, this is nonsense.

01:23:50.840 They got it.

01:23:51.500 They didn't just get it a little wrong.

01:23:52.820 They got the opposite of what he was actually doing.

01:23:54.900 He's talking about profound faith in the God of the Bible that lives itself out, that

01:23:59.980 pours itself out with joy.

01:24:03.480 And so that is where we are today.

01:24:06.500 So when people say to me, well, I've got the right theology, or like Glenn Beck, he's a

01:24:10.140 Mormon.

01:24:10.380 His theology is wrong here and here and here.

01:24:11.980 And you, Eric, you believe you're wrong here.

01:24:13.440 And let me just tell you, God looks on your heart.

01:24:18.420 C.S. Lewis really understood this better than anybody.

01:24:20.560 God looks on your heart.

01:24:21.320 So you can talk all you want about your theology.

01:24:23.660 God knows your theology by how you live.

01:24:27.540 And so all these people that pretend they've got all this perfect theology, they're worshiping

01:24:31.200 an idol of perfect theology.

01:24:33.180 That's not the same as worshiping Jesus.

01:24:35.700 And you worship Jesus with your life.

01:24:37.820 And so there is something here.

01:24:39.080 There's a mystery.

01:24:39.840 There are a lot of people that are very uncomfortable with mystery or ambiguity.

01:24:43.440 They want it all buttoned up.

01:24:44.620 And it's like, you believe in this and this and this.

01:24:46.120 You're in.

01:24:46.720 You don't, you're out.

01:24:48.320 That's not the God of the Bible.

01:24:50.840 Churches are a little like political parties.

01:24:54.540 They're to further the mission.

01:24:57.520 But if the people that are running the political party are not living what that Abrahamic, you

01:25:08.560 know, covenant, Abraham Lincoln covenant, if they're not living that, it means nothing.

01:25:13.800 It means nothing.

01:25:14.540 So the falling of the attendance in church, is that the people's fault or the church's fault?

01:25:21.160 I think it's a good thing.

01:25:22.640 I think it's a good thing.

01:25:23.360 I do.

01:25:23.880 I do.

01:25:24.200 In other words, if you've been going to church that's been doing like all this religious

01:25:26.960 stuff, I think people are thinking like, you know what?

01:25:29.360 The world is going insane.

01:25:31.360 And if you're not speaking to me where I live, you're not relevant.

01:25:34.260 And guess what?

01:25:34.980 Most churches, I mean, we think of it in the Simpsons, the church that they go to.

01:25:38.940 That's many churches in America are like that.

01:25:41.680 Your average person, you know, struggling in life or whatever, they go, you know what?

01:25:45.440 I'll pass.

01:25:46.200 I'll skip that.

01:25:46.900 I'll sleep in on Sunday morning because that's not speaking to me.

01:25:49.540 Churches that are speaking to all these issues, their numbers are increasing because people

01:25:55.580 are like, I need that.

01:25:56.860 I can get interested in that.

01:25:57.800 Are you going to stand against the lunacy that my kids are being exposed to in the public

01:26:02.100 school?

01:26:02.340 Are you going to stand against that?

01:26:03.600 Are you going to stand against pornography in my kids' schools?

01:26:06.700 Are you going to get, you know, are you going to have this kind of muscular pushback

01:26:10.900 against this stuff attacking my kids and attacking my kids?

01:26:13.720 I'm with that because that looks to me like somebody actually cares, somebody willing to

01:26:18.980 live out what they say they believe.

01:26:21.960 And all these other churches that are losing numbers, what I say, because I've been speaking

01:26:27.320 about this incessantly for two years, it's like when Jesus curses the fig tree, people

01:26:31.280 think, oh, Jesus is so nice.

01:26:32.440 He would never do anything like that.

01:26:33.520 He curses the fig tree because it doesn't bear fruit.

01:26:36.420 He says like, you're done.

01:26:37.720 You're over.

01:26:38.440 I curse you.

01:26:39.140 You wither.

01:26:39.580 You die.

01:26:39.940 Those are the churches that are not living out their faith, that are not living out a

01:26:44.260 religionless Christianity.

01:26:45.300 And I say, when people say, well, what can I do, Eric?

01:26:46.900 What can I do?

01:26:47.320 I say, first off, you're going to one of those churches, get out, take your friends, take

01:26:50.820 God's money and get out of that church.

01:26:52.760 And better that you should be watching, having a home church service or something like that

01:26:56.220 than going to one of these religious services where they kind of act like, well, this is

01:27:01.120 about making you a better person and self-actualization.

01:27:04.000 And we don't want to get into any of that controversial stuff.

01:27:07.180 God wants you to get into that controversial stuff.

01:27:09.380 God's kind of controversial.

01:27:11.240 A little bit.

01:27:12.380 A little bit.

01:27:13.140 In fact, when he came to earth, they murdered him.

01:27:16.300 So that's where we are.

01:27:19.160 Are we at the beginning of a great awakening?

01:27:22.680 I'm sure of it.

01:27:23.780 Yeah, I am too.

01:27:24.440 I'm absolutely sure of it.

01:27:25.620 And the way you see it always, it's like with George Whitefield, right?

01:27:30.920 The establishment church hated George Whitefield.

01:27:33.660 Why?

01:27:34.160 He couldn't even preach inside anybody's church.

01:27:36.660 That's the point, right?

01:27:37.540 They're like, no, you're not welcome here.

01:27:38.740 He's like, okay, well, then I'll take it outside.

01:27:41.480 And so he takes it outside.

01:27:42.640 And all these people had never heard the beautiful story of who God really is.

01:27:47.240 They're just like, you know, weeping to hear him tell about the God who loves them and

01:27:52.040 stuff like that.

01:27:52.660 So all of those kinds of churches, and again, it's no different than in Jesus' day, this

01:27:57.280 hyper-religious nonsense, God always works outside the system, and it infuriates those

01:28:03.960 inside the system.

01:28:04.980 And in fact, I've said often that God takes a, you know, a philandering, thrice-married

01:28:13.840 New York real estate developer to humiliate the church, to show the church what courage

01:28:19.880 looks like.

01:28:21.620 People get very angry.

01:28:23.580 And God does this over and over in history.

01:28:25.720 He picks somebody outside to show what, you know, what he's looking for.

01:28:30.180 Cyrus is an example in the scripture.

01:28:33.500 And we're living in a time right now where God is going outside the church.

01:28:36.500 The other day, I mean, the other day, Trump goes to Madison Square Garden for, you know,

01:28:43.980 one of these, I'm not into that kind of fighting and stuff.

01:28:45.840 He goes there.

01:28:46.460 He brings Bobby Kennedy with him.

01:28:48.700 He brings Tulsi, he's there.

01:28:50.360 And Rogan is there.

01:28:53.700 And when the winner, John Jones, whatever his name is, he comes out, Joe Rogan puts the

01:28:58.760 microphone in his face.

01:29:00.040 And the whole world hears him talk about Jesus at length.

01:29:03.580 And I thought, what is happening in America?

01:29:06.440 Something beautiful is happening in America.

01:29:09.560 And if you're not going to give God the glory in your churches the way you should, he'll

01:29:14.380 bring it into the middle of a fight in Madison Square Garden.

01:29:17.240 His message, the stones will cry out.

01:29:19.320 We are seeing that.

01:29:21.200 And it's a beautiful thing.

01:29:23.640 It's extraordinary that we get to be alive at this time.

01:29:27.340 Where this is going to go, I don't know.

01:29:28.700 But I see God's hand in it.

01:29:30.340 I don't say that kind of stuff lightly.

01:29:32.520 And I think God wants to bless this nation.

01:29:34.880 He wants to bless us to be a blessing.

01:29:36.500 This is not about America.

01:29:37.800 This is about the world.

01:29:39.100 But he's blessing us to be a blessing.

01:29:40.500 He's giving us a chance.

01:29:41.440 We don't deserve to clean, to go scorched earth on this satanic bureaucracy of the deep

01:29:48.240 state, the unelected elites that hate America, that hate freedom.

01:29:53.260 We have an extraordinary moment.

01:29:54.760 But I feel like we've just crossed the starting line.

01:29:57.040 It's just like Washington going across the East River.

01:30:00.900 And now we get to fight.

01:30:03.580 And it's a glorious thing we get to do.

01:30:06.060 Yeah.

01:30:07.460 I'm grateful for you.

01:30:08.800 It's what a great time.

01:30:10.320 I'm back at you, man.

01:30:11.340 I miss you, my friend.

01:30:11.880 I could do this every day.

01:30:13.180 To talk to you is a joy, Glenn.

01:30:14.840 I don't say that kind of stuff lightly.

01:30:16.200 What a joy.

01:30:16.740 Thank you.

01:30:17.220 Thank you.

01:30:23.720 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on

01:30:28.820 to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

01:30:30.900 Thank you.

01:30:30.960 Thank you.

01:30:39.700 Thank you.

The Glenn Beck Program - November 23, 2024

Ep 236 ｜ Is God Using Trump？｜ Eric Metaxas ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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