The Glenn Beck Program - July 19, 2025


Ep 259 ｜ The Billionaire Astronaut Who ALMOST Led NASA ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast


Episode Stats

Length

58 minutes

Words per Minute

196.01013

Word Count

11,535

Sentence Count

788

Misogynist Sentences

7

Hate Speech Sentences

12


Summary

In his spare time, Jared Isaacman is also an astronaut. Last September, he became the first civilian in history to perform a spacewalk. When President Trump nominated him to be the new head of NASA, he seemed like the ideal outsider choice. But then he ran into a firestorm of turbulence that he s not used to navigating.


Transcript

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00:01:49.640 In his spare time, he's also an astronaut.
00:01:53.440 Last September, he became the first civilian in history to perform a spacewalk.
00:01:58.440 When President Trump nominated him to be the new head of NASA, he seemed like the ideal outsider choice and would soar to confirmation.
00:02:06.480 But then he ran into a firestorm of turbulence that he's not really used to navigating D.C. politics.
00:02:14.200 We'll get the story behind that and much more from the entrepreneur, the philanthropist, the pilot, the astronaut, Jared Isaacman.
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00:02:34.240 I'm so excited to talk to you.
00:02:51.680 I've talked to a few astronauts.
00:02:54.740 One of them was, I walked away really depressed, was Buzz Aldrin.
00:03:00.800 Do you know Buzz?
00:03:01.480 Sure.
00:03:02.140 Yeah.
00:03:02.800 And he was, he, I came away a little depressed because that was the pinnacle.
00:03:11.060 And I can't imagine anything being bigger than going to the moon and walking on the moon and then coming back and then having, never having the opportunity to go back and everything else.
00:03:22.020 I mean, how do you top, that's what I talked to him about.
00:03:28.760 How do you top that?
00:03:30.280 How do you, you're out in space.
00:03:32.140 You did the first spacewalk as a regular citizen.
00:03:37.780 How do you top that?
00:03:39.320 Well, you're, you're, you're bringing up a fantastic point.
00:03:41.440 It's one that, you know, there's, there's a lot of, I mean, the astronaut images comes with, it's very glamorous, but there's a lot of, there are a lot of things that aren't often talked about.
00:03:49.160 One of which is astronauts, when they come back from their missions, they go from an incredible high to an ultra low.
00:03:55.060 The only thing that kind of, I think, brings them back up again is what's the next mission.
00:03:58.700 And some go back to space and some go on the speaking tour and try and share their experiences with others.
00:04:04.520 But I, I, I never expected at all.
00:04:07.580 When I came back from my, my first mission, you start deleting all the standing calendars for, you know, all the coordination leading up to the, to the launch and everything that went through in quarantine.
00:04:16.500 You're like, how do you ever top something like this?
00:04:19.120 What an experience.
00:04:20.580 You know, I was fortunate that, you know, the mission continued on and wound up working on a developmental program that ultimately led to that spacewalk.
00:04:27.300 Um, but yeah, let's start, let's start at the first, cause you were the commander, if I'm not mistaken, of the first SpaceX, all civilian crew.
00:04:36.780 Right.
00:04:37.140 It was, it was first time any non-government astronauts went into orbit.
00:04:40.300 Um, that was called inspiration four.
00:04:42.540 And it was pretty incredible.
00:04:44.620 It, uh, you know, SpaceX committed to that mission before NASA even resumed operational flights from the United States.
00:04:51.820 So this was in, uh, November of 2020 before NASA's crew one even launched.
00:04:56.280 So, I mean, talk about a bold leap for some, an organization like SpaceX to say, not only are we solving a decade long horrific problem for NASA to get back in the, in the, in the human spaceflight business, we're ready to do it with civilians.
00:05:09.460 Um, and nine months later we, uh, we went to space.
00:05:12.520 Did it, did it, did it occur?
00:05:15.180 I mean, it's not uncommon for things to blow up, especially as a first, did that play a role in anything as you were sitting there and you're about ready to light the, uh, you know, a nuclear weapon, a giant bomb.
00:05:32.380 Did that even come to mind?
00:05:34.420 You know, I've, uh, I've been, uh, flying for a really long time now, uh, actually about 20 years.
00:05:40.760 I've gotten to fly with some of the, like the, literally the greatest fighter pilots, uh, in this country, one of which is Dale Snort Snodgrass.
00:05:47.180 He's, uh, he's since actually passed in a crash, but he was probably my, my greatest flying mentor ever.
00:05:53.400 And when he put us in really challenging situations, it was always like, you just got to hack it.
00:05:58.380 And I, I remember as that countdown clock was going down the last 10 seconds, it was like, we, we got to hack this thing.
00:06:05.000 We just got to, we got to tough through it because we are, we're about to go on the ride of our lifetime.
00:06:09.540 And if this door opens and it's successful, think of all the exciting missions to follow.
00:06:14.060 You were in kindergarten when you first wanted to go to space.
00:06:16.340 Yes.
00:06:16.960 Yes.
00:06:17.300 So as a, first of all, who inspired you?
00:06:21.440 Uh, so I think it was actually television.
00:06:23.640 My, um, my parents put me in front of the TV, uh, instead of a babysitter a lot.
00:06:27.780 So I watched the movie space camp, top gun, the right stuff.
00:06:31.480 And, uh, I mean, I remember even saying like, I want to go to space camp because there's a robot there that's going to launch me into space.
00:06:36.980 And, uh, in kindergarten, I just would check out from the library at the school, uh, picture books of the space shuttle.
00:06:43.060 And I did tell my kindergarten teacher, I was like, someday I'm going to, I'm going to do this.
00:06:47.000 Wow.
00:06:48.380 So your understanding as a kid, compare what you thought space was going to be like just launching.
00:06:56.160 What is it actually like?
00:06:58.140 So, um, the actual ascent is not as it's, it's an intense experience, but it's not like what you would think, like, you know, coming up to a traffic light and then just jamming the accelerator and getting thrown back in your seat.
00:07:09.800 You get that flying fighter jets for sure.
00:07:11.680 The actual acceleration is rather gradual because, you know, when you're on the pad, your, your thrust to weight ratio is barely greater than one to one.
00:07:18.960 So if you're not looking at the screens and the displays, you hardly even know you're moving.
00:07:22.900 Now the intensity starts to set in as you, you hear the turbo pumps around you and, you know, you've got that 1.8 million pounds of thrust that's accelerating you to 17,500 miles an hour.
00:07:34.340 But it's not that instantaneous bam, like you would think.
00:07:38.220 And then when you get into space, the big thing is that you could never prepare for here on earth is just everybody feels differently.
00:07:44.820 And the, the spectrum there is from feeling, uh, you know, really unwell, but functional for about three to five days to like the worst motion sickness you can imagine.
00:07:55.620 And it's existed like that since the beginning of the space program.
00:07:58.540 I think that's where I would probably be.
00:08:00.400 I've always wanted to go.
00:08:01.440 I would go to space in a heartbeat, but I'd be barfing the whole time.
00:08:04.820 I'm convinced.
00:08:05.740 You know what?
00:08:06.120 They've figured out how to treat it really well.
00:08:08.060 And before you know it, you're back in the action and it's worth it.
00:08:10.960 Gosh, what is, so what is it like when you slip the envelope of earth?
00:08:17.920 Uh, the first thing is that you do just feel differently and it's instantaneous.
00:08:22.060 The moment the engine cuts off on the second stage and you're at SECO, you feel SECO, second engine cutoff.
00:08:28.940 So that's when you know you have arrived and you've got your zero G indicator floating.
00:08:34.260 So, you know, okay, I'm in microgravity, but you feel different.
00:08:37.180 You feel like you're hanging upside down from your bed and it's going to last for a couple days.
00:08:42.280 And then you see the intense light coming off of earth and the sun and you get a view, uh, that very few others have seen.
00:08:50.460 And it just gives you a new appreciation for kind of how small we are in the grand scheme of things.
00:08:57.180 I mean, you didn't have the experience Gail King had.
00:08:59.680 She did something very, very important, of course.
00:09:01.600 Um, but, uh, I, I can't imagine now you went out further than anybody had gone since the Apollo project, right?
00:09:11.360 That's your second, my second mission.
00:09:13.160 So we had three big objectives on that one over five days.
00:09:16.180 First, we, we did go farther, uh, into space than anyone's gone since Apollo 17.
00:09:20.200 And two of my crewmates, Sarah Gillis and Anna Menon are the women who've traveled farthest from earth ever, which I think is, is pretty cool.
00:09:26.440 I'm long overdue.
00:09:27.940 And, um, and we did that to go inside the inner portion of the Van Allen radiation belt.
00:09:32.480 And, uh, it's a...
00:09:33.600 No, no, no.
00:09:33.960 I've heard, I've heard you cannot cross that belt and then come back alive.
00:09:38.460 Well, I can assure you, you can.
00:09:39.740 And, uh, there is, there is a lot of, and as, as, uh, as Buzz Aldrin could certainly attest to as well, um, there's a lot more radiation there.
00:09:48.200 The idea is you want to be going as fast as you can when you go through it.
00:09:51.240 And if you're on a TLI to the moon, you're going 25,000 miles per hour.
00:09:55.900 So you're getting through it very quick, but you're getting some radiation.
00:09:58.680 We certainly saw it.
00:10:00.020 Lots of lights and alarms went off when we were in the kind of peak intensity.
00:10:04.160 I can actually, when you close your eyes, some astronauts have seen this phenomenon.
00:10:07.160 We did as well, these light flashes, where it literally looks like, with your eyes closed, a meteor shower in your eyes from the radiation.
00:10:13.580 Wow.
00:10:14.100 But you can, uh, live through it.
00:10:15.800 With you.
00:10:16.300 Well, for us, it was, it was at this peak radiation intensity period over the South Atlantic anomaly just off of Brazil.
00:10:22.100 Um, and basically I would say in about three orbits, uh, it was the, that particular phase was the equivalency of being on the space station for three months from a radiation dosage.
00:10:32.820 Wow.
00:10:34.360 So you're, you're up.
00:10:36.340 You start heading back and now you reenter.
00:10:40.740 What is that like?
00:10:42.020 So this is, this is a little different.
00:10:43.440 So on the ascent, the uphill, uh, I've, I've, I've been up twice.
00:10:47.700 I've looked at my crew members.
00:10:48.980 Everyone's always smiling and cheering.
00:10:50.680 You, you, you're, there is just so much excitement to finally get the mission underway and you have all these outs if something goes wrong.
00:10:57.560 But on the way back, it's the high blood pressure moment.
00:11:00.920 You have, um, you have no outs.
00:11:03.440 The heat shield must work.
00:11:04.600 There's no plan B and the shoots must work.
00:11:06.600 And, um, when you go really high past the space station where we were, there's lots of micrometeoid orbital debris.
00:11:12.980 And even like a paint spec, like even a millimeter of aluminum can take a chunk out of a heat shield.
00:11:18.520 Jeez.
00:11:18.840 And then you wind up in a, you know, a potentially like a Columbia situation all over.
00:11:23.000 So reentry is kind of high blood pressure because it has to work.
00:11:26.540 Uh, the G's last longer, your body's deconditioned.
00:11:29.780 So it's, um, I mean, it's a, it's a thrill for sure, but that's where, that's where you're a little more nervous.
00:11:35.460 I don't think wetting my pants is, I would describe that as a thrill.
00:11:40.020 Um, uh, you, some people say that because you're a billionaire, you bought your way into the program.
00:11:52.140 Uh, how do you respond to that?
00:11:54.900 Well, I'd say that like, um, one, um, I think the private investments that are going into advancing, um, America's human space flight capabilities is a great thing for taxpayers.
00:12:05.460 Right.
00:12:05.940 I mean, uh, what I think we did in the 1960s where everybody contributed to such an enormous feed is a, is a good thing.
00:12:13.380 If you have private individuals like you're seeing with Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and my, you know, kind of modest contributions to it, to advance a capability for the benefit of all humankind, that's, that's a good thing.
00:12:26.720 And it's not, it's not unprecedented.
00:12:28.400 You're, you're, you know, a history buff.
00:12:30.160 I mean, throughout human history, you've had major expeditions and endeavors that have been privately funded for the benefit of many.
00:12:35.920 We used to have privately funded telescopes that then universities could take advantage of.
00:12:40.620 So I, I don't see it as a negative if it's kind of advancing the ball forward.
00:12:44.720 Yeah.
00:12:45.180 I, you know, we're going to get into you, you know, heading NASA or being nominated to head NASA, um, at some point.
00:12:52.120 But, uh, I mean, I think NASA seems to be kind of a government tends to be a mess in a lot of ways.
00:13:02.580 When I first heard Elon Musk talk about his, when he started SpaceX and he's like, okay, so what are the, you know, what are the parameters here?
00:13:10.040 Well, you know, what kind of costs are you looking for, et cetera, et cetera.
00:13:13.180 And they're like, no budget.
00:13:15.400 And he found that so odd that, what do you mean, what do you mean you're running this and you don't, money doesn't matter.
00:13:22.980 That doesn't make sense.
00:13:24.260 I think there's something to be said for private industry where there are budgets that you do have to perform.
00:13:31.680 It makes a difference.
00:13:33.820 Oh, I couldn't agree more.
00:13:34.920 And I'll tell you something else about that Elon story.
00:13:36.960 And Eric Berger wrote two great, you know, kind of books about the early days of SpaceX.
00:13:40.420 What was most disheartening to Elon that set him on this path is he went on NASA's website to just learn about Mars.
00:13:46.700 You know, he just sold his, one of his, his first business.
00:13:48.840 And he's like, I'm interested in seeing, you know, what the grand American plan is to go to Mars.
00:13:52.860 And he's like, I went all over NASA's website.
00:13:54.900 I couldn't find anything about it.
00:13:56.360 And he's like, that doesn't make sense.
00:13:58.180 I mean, how, how, how are we not having that somewhere on the roadmap?
00:14:01.740 But in terms of like, you know, some of the expertise that kind of corporate industry can bring one, we're, we're much better capital allocators.
00:14:08.620 It's just kind of the nature of the beast when you're beholden to, you know, shareholders and investors over the years that expect that if you're going to, if you're going to take money, you're going to create lots and lots of value of it.
00:14:18.540 And, you know, someone like Elon who started a number of successful companies or Jeff Bezos, you know, I've, I've run, you know, two companies now.
00:14:25.620 One's a public company.
00:14:27.040 You, I think you develop a skill set that's just not inherent in, in government where the check's always going to come and the expectation is there's always going to be more of it.
00:14:35.760 And I think in the end you wind up, you know, creating a bureaucracy that serves anything other than anything other than the mission.
00:14:42.280 But there is a world for a NASA, of course, like you, you, the, the government and every taxpayer should be contributing to do the near impossible.
00:14:49.060 What no one else is capable of doing, what no private company is going to do or organization is capable of doing.
00:14:54.180 But what are those things?
00:14:54.940 If you have Elon Musk saying, I'm going to go to Mars, I'm going to build a colony on Mars.
00:14:59.480 What are those things that private industry can't do?
00:15:04.680 Oh, well, I mean, first there's the whole science portfolio inside of NASA.
00:15:08.460 I mean, there is, you know, as much as I personally, and I would have tried to champion this to see academic institutions and, and, you know, nonprofits and private individuals fund scientific missions.
00:15:19.400 It hasn't happened yet.
00:15:20.800 Like if we're going to want rovers on, on Mars or send missions like Europa Clipper or Dragonfly, you know, to go explore within our solar system and beyond it's, it's, it's probably going to be a government run operation because there's no, there's no obvious economic model or financial return where someone else would, would do it.
00:15:39.300 And then in terms of what SpaceX is doing, which is just extraordinary, it's one piece of the puzzle.
00:15:44.640 Like they can't solve every single, every single problem.
00:15:47.800 For example, I think nuclear power is going to play a huge role in exploring our solar system and very relevant to Mars.
00:15:54.860 I mean, nuclear propulsion takes a lot of the pressure off commercial industry because you don't necessarily have to do lots of in space refueling.
00:16:02.000 You're going to need nuclear reactors on the surface of Mars and simply put the farther you get away from the sun that, you know, the less you can rely upon on solar power.
00:16:09.300 Who's going to invest in nuclear powered spacecrafts other than the government?
00:16:12.640 Like there's no economic model for you.
00:16:14.220 You're not going to raise investment funds for it.
00:16:15.840 So there are things that NASA should be doing to help the, the, you know, the blue origins and the, and the SpaceX's of the world.
00:16:22.520 Let me go back again.
00:16:25.340 How did you grow up?
00:16:26.380 You weren't, you weren't wealthy growing up.
00:16:28.840 Middle class family.
00:16:29.920 My father's an alarm salesman.
00:16:31.220 My mother took care of me and my brothers and sisters.
00:16:35.180 So how did you get to this position?
00:16:38.060 I got incredibly lucky.
00:16:40.000 You know, I think part of it is I was kind of the, either the accident or the surprise.
00:16:44.780 However you look at it, my brothers and sisters much older than me and they were out enjoying life and living a very independent life.
00:16:50.120 I was in high school and I was like, well, I, I don't want to like raise my hand to go to the bathroom.
00:16:54.760 I want to live my own life.
00:16:55.820 So I, he was somehow able to convince my parents at 16 to let me leave.
00:16:59.860 High school.
00:17:00.740 Leave high school.
00:17:01.480 I did.
00:17:01.600 Stop, stop, stop.
00:17:02.700 Yeah.
00:17:03.200 That seems insane.
00:17:04.780 I totally agree.
00:17:05.400 I have two daughters.
00:17:06.220 I'd never let them do it.
00:17:07.500 Right.
00:17:08.360 How did you convince your parents to do it?
00:17:10.260 I think I was just such a bad student.
00:17:12.020 They, uh, they thought this was, uh, you know, the, the better alternative, but they put conditions, get your GED, make a commitment to go to college, which I did.
00:17:19.580 Um, and I did see opportunity.
00:17:22.220 I learned a lot about, uh, a payments industry, uh, in 1999, which is nowhere near exciting as, as space or aviation or some of my other endeavors, but I loved it.
00:17:31.940 And I figured out, you know, along with a good team, how to do it a little bit better.
00:17:35.680 Um, and that was just like Stripe, what you've been done.
00:17:39.080 Totally.
00:17:39.520 You know what?
00:17:40.260 Uh, so a lot of the names everyone knows are like Stripe, for example, they're either in e-commerce, like kind of the sexier forms of payments.
00:17:46.480 We're behind the scenes in half the Las Vegas strip, a third of the, uh, the restaurants in the country.
00:17:52.040 Most of the sports stadiums you go to, theme parks, every theme park's our customer.
00:17:55.500 So it was like a small basement startup, and now it's about a $10 billion company on the stock exchange.
00:18:00.720 And you started at 16.
00:18:01.880 I did.
00:18:03.260 Um, and, and, uh, in any case it was, uh, yeah, it was certainly a grand endeavor and, and was allowed me to be able to pursue other opportunities that I enjoy.
00:18:14.140 I created a defense company in 2011.
00:18:16.100 Uh, that was probably the second coolest industry next to going into space.
00:18:19.800 Uh, we flew fighter jets as professional bad guys for the department.
00:18:22.880 Hang on a sec.
00:18:23.600 Before you get there, I just, my dad never had a new car ever in his whole life.
00:18:29.940 And one of the, one of the best moments of my life was being able to ask my dad, kind of car, what kind of car do you like?
00:18:38.940 Oh, and buying the car for him.
00:18:42.120 What was it like having, offering your dad a job to come work for you?
00:18:46.820 It's funny.
00:18:47.420 I did the, I did the same thing for my dad and working with my father is probably one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.
00:18:53.180 Um, he just, I mean, my parents were very supportive when we were in the basement and trying to get going.
00:19:00.300 But I think my father saw some momentum and he also saw some limitations.
00:19:03.360 Like people don't, I had to hide in the basement.
00:19:05.960 Like I was 16.
00:19:06.980 I mean, I didn't shave for weeks.
00:19:08.480 It did nothing.
00:19:10.520 Like he was, he's a, he's a great salesperson.
00:19:13.660 He's taught me a lot about sales and diplomacy and, uh, and he was like, he saw the opportunity
00:19:18.920 and he came on board and he was the, the man in the field, you know, uh, yeah, nobody's
00:19:23.460 going to, nobody's going to say, Oh, let me, let me give you our payment systems over to
00:19:28.180 you.
00:19:28.720 So it was, uh, it was great.
00:19:30.800 Uh, it was great working with him in that, in that regard.
00:19:33.300 And I wound up doing the same thing actually later in life was, um, uh, he's always a Porsche
00:19:37.820 fan.
00:19:38.180 So he was always a nine 11 fan, so, uh, that was a gift at one point.
00:19:44.660 Let me take a quick break.
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00:21:19.240 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.
00:21:21.960 Are those from Winners?
00:21:23.500 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?
00:21:25.960 Did she pay full price?
00:21:27.300 Or that leather tote?
00:21:28.320 Or that cashmere sweater?
00:21:29.200 Or those knee-high boots?
00:21:31.000 That dress?
00:21:31.780 That jacket?
00:21:32.440 Those shoes?
00:21:33.480 Is anyone paying full price for anything?
00:21:36.420 Stop wondering.
00:21:37.700 Start winning.
00:21:38.620 Winners.
00:21:39.220 Find fabulous for less.
00:21:40.600 Okay, so now let's go to, beyond that, you then start a, like a private, it's not a defense
00:21:52.240 company, but it works with defense, right?
00:21:55.000 You're training.
00:21:56.400 It was a defense company.
00:21:58.100 Our customer was the DOD and some of our allies.
00:22:01.660 And so the story here is I always loved aviation as, since a kid, top, back to Top Gun, right
00:22:06.920 stuff.
00:22:07.220 So I started flying in 2004 when I, I just was waking up on my keyboard and needed a hobby
00:22:12.440 and I just didn't look back.
00:22:15.120 2008, nine, I started to get in.
00:22:16.480 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:22:17.260 You were on your keyboard and you needed a hobby.
00:22:19.180 Like I was waking up on my keyboard every morning.
00:22:21.360 Okay.
00:22:21.820 All right.
00:22:22.140 Okay.
00:22:22.540 All right.
00:22:22.880 I mean, it was this stage of life when you're, you're young, you don't have family or responsibilities.
00:22:25.920 Yeah.
00:22:26.120 You're working, working, working.
00:22:27.220 So I started flying, never really slowed down, knew I wanted to fly, you know, uh, jets and
00:22:33.800 ex-military aircraft.
00:22:35.120 So I started flying air shows, uh, 2010, 2011.
00:22:39.880 And I, I had the best like team in the world that I was flying with.
00:22:43.520 I mean, former Thunderbirds, um, you know, again, Dale Snodgrass, highest timed F-14 pilot
00:22:49.200 in the world, just amazing.
00:22:51.420 And we were flying a seven ship aerobatic routine at air shows across the country.
00:22:55.720 And, um, you know, we were having the best times of our lives, but we were also saying,
00:23:00.460 you know, we all know this industry well enough to know that it, you know, there's always going
00:23:03.880 to be a bad day.
00:23:04.740 Like it's, it's inevitable at some point we should try and pivot this to something commercial.
00:23:09.660 And I literally traveled around the world and bought fleets of fighter jets from countries
00:23:14.300 that were selling them and import them back in the U S and modernize them.
00:23:18.420 And then we were literally the top gun adversaries for the air force, the Navy, the Marine
00:23:24.220 Corps.
00:23:24.920 You were the bad guys.
00:23:25.720 We were the bad guys.
00:23:26.480 We would replicate Russian, Chinese, Iranian tactics.
00:23:30.340 Um, and we came to the world's largest private air force.
00:23:32.880 We had over a hundred fighter jets and it was cool.
00:23:36.240 I mean, very cool.
00:23:38.420 I bet it was.
00:23:39.680 So you, you wouldn't tell them what you were going to do.
00:23:43.700 I mean, that had to have been, I've always wondered if you're, if you're training, same
00:23:47.840 people who are training you, how to defend yourself also are the ones coming in.
00:23:53.280 You're not, you're not necessarily getting new input.
00:23:57.200 So did you, do you know what I mean?
00:23:59.140 So, so maybe, maybe to describe it, there are things like when you're supporting the,
00:24:02.780 uh, the weapon school, for example, which is the air force version of top gun, they're
00:24:06.480 actually giving you a lot of things that are scripted out because they're trying to train
00:24:10.360 their, what they consider their PhD of fighter pilot course, certain things and, and arrive
00:24:15.840 at, you know, these desired learning objectives.
00:24:17.700 And in which case we do, if we do everything right and they do everything right, we, we
00:24:23.040 die.
00:24:23.960 Um, and then there are some, which, which is just total, you know, you know, the gloves
00:24:28.220 come off, fangs out and they don't know what's coming.
00:24:31.420 And, uh, if they make mistakes, it's our job to, to punish them.
00:24:35.220 And it was, I mean, it was super cool.
00:24:38.760 I wound up selling the business to Blackstone in, um, 2019 because I was taking my, my other
00:24:43.360 company public, but I still kept a handful of fighter jets.
00:24:46.140 It's actually, I'm on my way to America's biggest air show, Oshkosh, and I'm, uh, mig-29
00:24:51.400 in it.
00:24:52.020 Wow.
00:24:53.180 Isn't it hard to get a license to fly military and to own or not?
00:24:59.160 I I've had the type ratings for about 16, 17 years.
00:25:03.040 Um, uh, so I have all the, all the ratings for it.
00:25:06.220 Um, but you, you should have a lot of experience to fly them.
00:25:09.900 I mean, if they can go twice the speed of sound, that's, you know, there's a lot of energy
00:25:12.940 there.
00:25:13.180 Uh, you know, one of the people, and this probably seems so ridiculous to, to you, but
00:25:18.040 I think one of the guys that really actually inspires me just because he does everything
00:25:24.100 himself is Tom Cruise.
00:25:27.080 100%.
00:25:27.440 I mean, that guy is amazing.
00:25:29.840 100%.
00:25:30.200 You know, you don't know him.
00:25:31.540 I mean, it's not like fighter jet fighter.
00:25:33.560 So actually on my first mission to space, he called up and spoke to us.
00:25:37.760 Uh, and then, uh, he said, when you guys come back, uh, I want you to come to a screening
00:25:42.200 of Top Gun two.
00:25:43.340 So he arranged that for us.
00:25:44.840 And then every now and then we exchanged a text.
00:25:47.180 He invited my wife and I out to see the new mission impossible movie, uh, uh, a couple of
00:25:51.380 weeks ago.
00:25:51.800 But yeah, I mean, I, he's awesome.
00:25:54.520 He really is.
00:25:55.140 He's so inspiring too.
00:25:56.200 He is.
00:25:56.760 It's like when you're watching him, I think I was talking to, I think my son, we were
00:26:01.620 talking about AI and how anything can be done now and AI and you know, what does special
00:26:06.600 effects even mean?
00:26:07.420 And I said, AI will become humdrum very soon, except for people like Tom Cruise, because
00:26:17.220 you know, it's him.
00:26:19.320 And there is a difference between CGI and watching him going, what is wrong with this
00:26:25.340 guy?
00:26:26.260 He just, he just goes and goes.
00:26:28.760 Completely agree.
00:26:29.720 Yeah.
00:26:30.540 Um, you set a world record.
00:26:32.940 Uh, what is it?
00:26:34.120 61 hours flying around the.
00:26:36.560 Yeah, back in, uh, 08 and, uh, and then again in 09, that's actually what got me exposed
00:26:41.860 to the commercial space industry.
00:26:43.220 I, um, I did, uh, we did that record and, um, flew, it was just how fast you could fly
00:26:48.540 around the world.
00:26:49.240 And we, um, we also did it to raise awareness for the Make-A-Wish Foundation.
00:26:52.640 And when I came back, uh, Dr. Peter Diamanis, who's, um, he's like a serial entrepreneur, but
00:26:58.340 he, he, he promotes all sorts of just cool endeavors in commercial space and human life
00:27:03.280 extension.
00:27:03.720 He tackles really interesting projects.
00:27:05.160 He invited me to, uh, Bank of North Kazakhstan with the early commercial space industry to
00:27:09.460 see a launch.
00:27:10.400 And, um, and that was my connection, you know, early connection to SpaceX and others, um, was
00:27:15.940 from that around the world flight.
00:27:17.560 When you were flying, I mean, you had to have thought of people like Lindbergh and what the
00:27:24.520 difference was between what you did and what he did.
00:27:28.520 Oh, yeah.
00:27:29.300 That's insane.
00:27:30.940 Everything.
00:27:31.520 Any, any of the adventures that I've been fortunate enough to be on, whether it's in aviation or
00:27:35.460 in space, pales in comparison to the early pioneers that risked it all, uh, to break down
00:27:40.560 the door.
00:27:41.080 I don't know if you saw when we came in, do you see the NASA freedoms or friendship seven
00:27:45.980 capsule above the door?
00:27:47.560 No, I didn't.
00:27:48.420 Okay.
00:27:48.580 So we have the friendship seven capsule made by NASA for the early days for their tours.
00:27:54.580 No kidding.
00:27:55.100 Yeah.
00:27:55.560 And, uh, and you look inside, you know, and it's got the, you know, astronaut in there
00:28:00.860 and you look inside and there's no way any of us would get into anything like that.
00:28:06.660 Now there's just no way.
00:28:08.420 Definitely don't do it.
00:28:09.180 If you're claustrophobic.
00:28:10.240 No, but it's still, you look at, I mean, I guess it was the technology of the day that
00:28:13.840 was so advanced, but you look at the technology and you're like, uh, that's like flying into
00:28:17.840 space with a microwave.
00:28:19.260 Yeah.
00:28:21.060 No, not going to do it.
00:28:22.720 They were heroes.
00:28:23.620 Um, so you were nominated to head NASA.
00:28:27.880 Um, tell me first of all, what that is like getting the nomination to head something like
00:28:35.820 NASA, especially if you're in kindergarten thinking, I want to go to space.
00:28:39.700 It was, uh, it was incredible.
00:28:42.060 I mean, I, I found the whole experience, um, very enlightening, thrilling.
00:28:47.840 Even the good and bad.
00:28:48.800 I mean, it's like, there's a lot of bad in politics.
00:28:50.940 Like, um, I, I enjoyed the experience and the more.
00:28:54.420 Wait, wait.
00:28:56.480 Of politics?
00:28:57.640 Yeah.
00:28:59.960 I haven't been in it.
00:29:01.080 I've been around it.
00:29:02.380 What exactly did you find enjoyable about that?
00:29:05.280 I think it's just a, um, it's really complicated, right?
00:29:09.680 We, we designed the system where you're going to take a couple hundred people and who knows
00:29:13.340 how many layers around them all that have to generally come together with some sort of
00:29:17.200 majority to get things done.
00:29:18.460 And that's incredibly challenging.
00:29:20.240 And I can see the, the good part when it arrives at the right outcome.
00:29:24.440 And I certainly have seen some of the ugliness too, uh, when people are trying to maneuver
00:29:28.540 for what they think is the, is the right outcome.
00:29:31.300 But from my perspective, just like once you overcame some of the intimidation factor of
00:29:36.140 being in that, uh, environment, I thought this is, this is an arena I can be helpful
00:29:40.360 in, um, for all the right reasons.
00:29:42.500 So it was, you're seeing how the government works for all of the good and all the blemishes
00:29:48.580 associated with it.
00:29:49.480 It was, um, I don't know, it was a perspective I was thankful to have.
00:29:52.540 I guess I, I guess I shouldn't say I was been, I've been around politics.
00:29:55.620 I've been around politicians and elections and elections are, oh my gosh, horrible, just
00:30:04.100 horrible.
00:30:04.580 What these guys put up with and do and everything else.
00:30:08.980 Um, what needs to happen with NASA?
00:30:12.360 If you were, and we're getting into what happened to the nomination and everything else, but when
00:30:16.780 you were nominated, you put together a list of things that has to happen.
00:30:20.960 For sure.
00:30:21.740 What, what were those things?
00:30:23.300 Well, I mean, even just to interview with the president, you know, you had to come with
00:30:27.360 a game plan.
00:30:28.360 So this was in, I don't know, the last day or two in November or the first day or two
00:30:31.900 of December 24.
00:30:33.360 Um, and you know, it was, it was pretty simple.
00:30:36.720 Everything I did in the six months or so through, you know, of the confirmation process was just
00:30:41.220 to build it out in greater detail with what needs to happen and when, who the right people
00:30:45.360 are to do it.
00:30:45.940 But essentially it comes down to the same things.
00:30:47.820 You know, there, there needs to be some sort of a reorganization, um, of the agency.
00:30:52.380 So you can kind of get back to concentrating on the real needle movers, the things that
00:30:57.060 if NASA doesn't do it, no one will, or if it is done, it'll be done by the Chinese
00:31:00.820 or the Russians.
00:31:02.720 Uh, well, returning to the moon, getting to, you know, establishing a pathway to Mars.
00:31:07.520 Wait, stop.
00:31:08.540 Let's go to the moon.
00:31:09.760 First of all, it'd be our first time.
00:31:11.560 Cause we never went, um, I can't, those people drive me out of my mind.
00:31:16.540 Um, uh, but why is it important for us to go back to the moon?
00:31:20.700 Well, I think it comes down to, you know, what we sent, what we may learn from a scientific
00:31:24.900 perspective, uh, what, uh, economic benefit might be out there in our general national
00:31:29.720 security.
00:31:30.720 Um, let's take like helium three, for example, maybe there's a 1% or less probability that
00:31:36.000 that could transform, you know, energy creation here on earth.
00:31:39.400 How many, how many wars have we fought over the last hundred years based on sources of
00:31:44.060 energy?
00:31:44.680 I mean, you get something wrong in space and we have literally just dipped our toe into
00:31:49.520 this and our understanding of it.
00:31:50.960 It could shift the balance of power here on earth.
00:31:53.380 Like, I don't know how we could ever afford to fall behind in the ultimate high ground of
00:31:57.460 space.
00:31:58.300 Um, because if we do, we may never catch up at all.
00:32:00.680 So from my perspective, you got to reorganize because you're doing lots of little things and
00:32:05.400 there's a lot of bureaucracy there that's impeding progress and concentrate on what no
00:32:09.380 one else will do except maybe our geopolitical rivals.
00:32:12.580 And then it's leading in the high ground of space.
00:32:15.000 It's figuring out the space economy because right now, everything we do in space is funded
00:32:20.460 by taxpayers.
00:32:21.400 So you're not going to have that star Wars like future.
00:32:24.120 We all imagine of rockets zipping by if every taxpayer has to contribute, we need to figure
00:32:27.800 out what is the orbital economy.
00:32:29.420 Is it, is it pharmaceuticals?
00:32:31.480 Is it, is it, is it mining?
00:32:33.020 Is it energy?
00:32:33.660 Is it energy related sources?
00:32:35.300 Got to figure it out.
00:32:36.460 And then what do you think it is?
00:32:38.560 Well, look, I mean, what's, what's for sure is there is, uh, you know, there is material,
00:32:43.900 there's elements, metals that are up there that are, we know have value.
00:32:46.920 Now people will talk about, you know, the asteroid with 2 trillion worth of rare minerals in
00:32:51.460 it.
00:32:51.660 And that supply demand gets thrown off the moment you introduce 2 trillion into the, into the
00:32:56.880 system.
00:32:57.280 Uh, but we know it's out there.
00:32:58.660 So you can go in, uh, you can go out and, um, uh, potentially mine and extract it.
00:33:03.640 I think we really, uh, have only scratched the surface with some of the pharmaceutical
00:33:07.920 work.
00:33:08.380 There's good companies like Varda that's experimenting, but what, what does that work?
00:33:12.380 I'm sorry.
00:33:13.100 What does that work?
00:33:13.860 What are they, they're doing a, like crystal formulation of, um, medical treatments are
00:33:17.700 increasing the density of the treatment, um, by, by these crystal form formulations.
00:33:22.580 But I think like the big concern is we don't have a good answer yet, despite having a space
00:33:27.300 station up there for 20 years, the biggest accomplishment we've had is keeping people
00:33:30.920 alive continuously for 20 years in the harsh environment of space, which is good, but we
00:33:35.240 haven't figured out that magic wand.
00:33:37.240 This treats cancer.
00:33:39.080 Um, you know, this, uh, this improves some technology for average, you know, Americans or
00:33:43.440 citizens dramatically.
00:33:44.700 And part of that is the bureaucracy to give you just an example.
00:33:47.840 And, and this is, I talk about NASA, but this is government wide, right?
00:33:51.540 Um, the, uh, the iPhone, the, uh, the Russians have brought it to the space station, which
00:33:57.260 they share with the, uh, with the Americans, the commercial astronauts who've gone to the
00:34:01.140 space station have brought iPhones.
00:34:02.540 NASA has yet to approve iPhones to go to the space station for their astronauts.
00:34:06.000 And it's like, well, that's kind of like a petty example, but it's like, how do I know
00:34:09.340 there isn't a ton of cancer treating formulas that have been waiting eight years to get approval
00:34:13.660 to go to the space station that could, you know, have a real economic benefit, in which
00:34:17.860 case, you know, it could fund this future in space.
00:34:20.380 We all want lots of space stations, for example, why, why go back to the iPhone?
00:34:25.660 Why is that, is that one of those things?
00:34:27.820 Like, uh, you got to turn your phone off as we take off.
00:34:31.120 Cause it could, I, I mean, it's probably, you know, if you're, I think culturally in this
00:34:36.580 nation, but, and again, this is not specific to NASA, but I mean, we've become very risk
00:34:41.200 averse.
00:34:41.640 There are one of my themes is there, there are some risks worth taking exploring the worlds
00:34:46.100 beyond ours is, is a risk worth taking.
00:34:48.540 You're not going to get there if you're not accepting some risk, just as we do for our,
00:34:51.780 our Navy pilots flying off aircraft carriers, our troops that go into different combat.
00:34:56.120 We put people in higher risk environments because, uh, there's a purpose that we think
00:35:01.740 is, is worth it.
00:35:02.620 Space is certainly no different in that regard.
00:35:05.120 But I remember getting, um, a list of all the departments in NASA, as I was thinking through
00:35:09.760 reorganization, if you do a control F and type the word safety, you're going to find
00:35:13.300 50 different departments and that's not to say safety isn't important, but if you have
00:35:17.600 lots of people in a position to say no, rather than bubbling it up logically to a single organization,
00:35:22.460 it's going to be easier to just say no.
00:35:24.500 I mean, the best way to keep astronauts and pilots safe is don't fly and don't go to space.
00:35:29.680 So what happened to the nomination?
00:35:33.140 Uh, well, I was on, uh, I guess the, uh, you know, the one yard line.
00:35:37.740 So I'd already cleared committee vote.
00:35:39.820 Um, there was bipartisan support.
00:35:41.720 I was two days away, uh, from the floor vote, uh, that would have confirmed, uh, me.
00:35:47.780 And I, and I think there was a very public falling out that took place and I became, I
00:35:53.280 guess, a casualty of that.
00:35:55.240 A public falling out being.
00:35:58.400 Uh, so I, I think that, well, put it this way, this, the same day that, uh, you know,
00:36:03.560 that Elon got the golden, uh, key to the white house, um, and a very, you know, uh, public
00:36:09.120 farewell was the day that I got a call that, um, the president decided to go in a different
00:36:13.100 direction.
00:36:15.220 But you two aren't connected.
00:36:16.680 I mean, you know each other, but you're not really connected, are you?
00:36:18.920 No, that's, you know, that, I mean, certainly it was funny because that was what a lot of
00:36:21.940 the, you know, the Democrat senators were asking me throughout the confirmation process
00:36:26.020 is like this conflict of interest.
00:36:27.980 You know, you, you, you and Elon go way back.
00:36:30.120 I was like, wait a second, I paid him to go, to go to space the same as NASA does.
00:36:35.860 Cause there's no other choice in the matter.
00:36:38.260 Obviously I have a ton of respect for him and what, what SpaceX has done.
00:36:41.440 They've sent me to space on two challenging missions and brought us back alive.
00:36:45.240 But Hey, if there were three companies, I bet I would have paid less.
00:36:48.800 Um, it's not like, uh, I mean, I, I grew up in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.
00:36:52.040 He, he was on the West coast.
00:36:53.600 I have no Silicon Valley connections, never had any Silicon Valley money.
00:36:56.380 We've never gone out on a social dinner.
00:36:58.560 Um, it's been a professional relationship and I have a ton of respect for him, but I,
00:37:02.800 I made it clear during the hearing, you know, my loyalty is to, to the nation and the space
00:37:07.000 agency.
00:37:07.660 SpaceX is an important vendor just as, you know, during, you know, James Webb had important
00:37:12.560 relationships with McDonnell Douglas and Boeing and others during the 1960s.
00:37:16.440 Um, so you, you are, if I had to look at your history and I would say the same thing about
00:37:25.600 Donald Trump when he was private, I would say you're a Democrat and because of the money you've
00:37:30.840 given on, I, I, Donald Trump, he lived in New York and he's giving money to Democrats.
00:37:36.340 Um, you, but you also, you donated $300,000 to Democrats, including $100,000 to a PAC affiliated
00:37:44.480 with Chuck Schumer.
00:37:45.640 I'm going to hold that against you actually.
00:37:47.580 Um, but you also gave $2 million to Trump.
00:37:51.660 I bet.
00:37:52.340 Yeah.
00:37:52.460 I've actually even given more than that to, uh, to Trump and the Republicans, even after
00:37:56.320 I, even after my nomination was pulled.
00:37:58.300 Um, it's, uh, it's interesting.
00:38:00.340 I, you obviously don't go very far in the confirmation process without, uh, you know, having a microscope
00:38:05.740 upheld to you.
00:38:06.300 You can just Google and see where, what my donation history was.
00:38:09.200 I, I explained it in, in writing probably to the, to the person who ultimately pulled
00:38:13.280 the trigger on me back on like January 9th.
00:38:15.980 Um, when I came back from space in 2021, you'll notice there were no democratic donations prior
00:38:21.060 to 2021 at all.
00:38:21.900 They were only Republican donations.
00:38:23.660 Not that there were many, but I wasn't very political.
00:38:26.000 I mean, uh, governor Scott, because that's where my company was in Florida now, Senator Scott.
00:38:31.340 Uh, so I came back from space in 2021 and I befriended a, uh, uh, senator who's an
00:38:35.520 astronaut and I, I do respect him a lot.
00:38:38.040 How can I not?
00:38:38.700 He's a naval aviator and he, he, he's a multi-time NASA astronaut.
00:38:42.860 Um, and he was helping me with some things too.
00:38:46.100 I was, my next Polaris mission was supposed to go boost the Hubble telescope and I had to
00:38:49.660 work against the institutional inertia at NASA to try and prevent it.
00:38:53.040 So over three years, I did give three, $300,000.
00:38:56.700 That's not me trying to swing an election.
00:39:00.000 Um, you know, I gave, uh, 125 million to St. Jude children's research hospital.
00:39:04.280 I've given tens of millions of dollars to space camp, to the Naval aviation museum.
00:39:08.040 That's me trying to send a message that I'm, you know, I'm behind it.
00:39:11.560 This was, um, somebody I respect a lot asking for help over a three year period.
00:39:16.300 When, when I saw kind of, you know, the president coming out of the, and for what it's worth,
00:39:21.240 I've never donated to any of Trump's opponents.
00:39:23.680 I've never voted against him in any of the elections.
00:39:25.840 Um, but when I saw, you know, the assassination attempt, uh, his kind of rise from that, uh,
00:39:33.760 doge, especially, um, like I am very pro, you know, we got to shrink the government,
00:39:38.660 get the national debt under control and take the funds that we're saving from this to get
00:39:42.300 war fighters, for example, more of what they need for the competitiveness of the nation.
00:39:46.000 So I got pretty, pretty energized.
00:39:47.860 That's why I made those donations to the president is why I was, you know, honored to serve in,
00:39:51.440 in his administration.
00:39:52.380 So help me out on, on this.
00:39:54.960 I mean, you obviously are smart enough to see what's over the horizon with AI.
00:39:59.400 Elon Musk said, we're going to have, uh, you know, new laws of physics, possibly by Christmas.
00:40:06.020 We may have new alloys by Christmas.
00:40:10.240 I don't know how you feel, but I think like the aircraft carrier is the horse of world war
00:40:16.960 one.
00:40:18.220 Good luck on that aircraft carrier.
00:40:20.740 You know what I mean?
00:40:21.260 You got drones, everything's about to change and we are on the cusp of AI.
00:40:26.280 We have no idea what the change even will look like.
00:40:30.360 No one can imagine because we won't be directing it.
00:40:32.860 It will be directing us.
00:40:34.840 Um, how do we, in this space where we're, where we're at, I don't understand why we're
00:40:44.260 spending money on things that are 20 years in the planning when in six months, all of that
00:40:52.300 could be out the window.
00:40:53.880 Wow.
00:40:54.480 This is, this is deep.
00:40:55.900 Uh, I mean, first of all, this goes to the heart of probably my only real political position,
00:41:01.780 which is the ensuring the ongoing competitiveness of the nation.
00:41:04.640 And we have spent a very long time, even through the cold war leading in every major technological
00:41:10.980 field and our skills as they atrophy right now, others, especially China are hitting their
00:41:16.880 stride.
00:41:17.280 So that, that makes me concerned because they are literally going after every one of the
00:41:21.700 major technological and engineering hurdles that are out there and just resourcing it
00:41:26.040 and seeing what happened.
00:41:26.860 They're doing it in space.
00:41:27.920 They're doing it with their fighter aircraft, their drone shows.
00:41:30.760 I mean, you see their drone shows on like new year's.
00:41:33.900 You're like amazing.
00:41:35.480 I mean, it, it, it, it is scary.
00:41:37.200 Good.
00:41:37.400 They want to play around with fusion.
00:41:38.800 I mean, I know this sounds so stupid, but I saw their drone shows right around, you know,
00:41:43.260 the time we were lighting fireworks and I like, why are there no shows like that in America?
00:41:49.460 What is it that they have that we're not, we don't have.
00:41:53.620 They have incredible second mover advantage, incredible second mover advantage.
00:41:58.000 They've watched.
00:41:58.580 Meaning what?
00:41:59.120 Well, so like we, we were obviously we, we were the first with the Manhattan project.
00:42:03.560 We had no baggage.
00:42:04.460 We just simply set up the facilities and hired the talent we needed and, and, and, and, and
00:42:10.480 resource it accordingly and had the will to achieve the outcome we wanted space race.
00:42:14.720 Same thing.
00:42:15.260 We set up all the centers we needed.
00:42:16.880 Where's the best place for engine work?
00:42:18.940 Where's the best place to launch rockets?
00:42:20.280 How about off Florida and Kennedy space center, right?
00:42:22.380 We resource it, had the will to do big, bold things.
00:42:26.100 Now we have all this baggage.
00:42:28.260 I mean, again, you know, NASA has 10 centers.
00:42:30.740 They're all doing lots of little things, not necessarily the original things they were doing
00:42:33.840 when those centers were created.
00:42:35.460 The national laboratories that were originally created to support the Manhattan project are
00:42:39.500 all doing lots of little things.
00:42:41.180 Now you want to try and, you know, repurpose that energy back to its original purpose.
00:42:45.120 And you've got a lot of people that hate change that don't want necessarily change a lot of
00:42:48.220 bureaucracy.
00:42:48.760 Whereas China is like, Oh, that, that makes sense.
00:42:51.220 Put the center there, resource it, put the will behind it and get it done.
00:42:54.840 And they're moving very quickly along a number of subjects, a number of important domains,
00:42:59.720 including AI.
00:43:00.680 And it's, it's, it's very unnerving.
00:43:03.020 Like the, that we can just do big, bold things hasn't kind of been part of our, our game plan
00:43:08.940 in a long time.
00:43:09.740 A long time.
00:43:10.620 A long time.
00:43:11.380 I, you know, I, I talked to the president and I said, I think history will mark you as
00:43:19.780 the AI president because it's all happening under him, but also because he is cobbling
00:43:26.260 together.
00:43:26.840 I mean, people don't understand what he was doing in the middle East.
00:43:30.140 He's trying to make sure China doesn't, isn't selling the chips to everybody that we still
00:43:35.680 are selling the chips.
00:43:36.680 There's the energy, the work on nuclear energy that he is just opening the door.
00:43:42.620 You're like, you want to build a nuclear power plant?
00:43:44.960 I'll cut the red tape for you.
00:43:46.940 Those things are remarkable and nobody's paying attention to that.
00:43:51.460 Nobody even sees what that is.
00:43:54.560 How important is that?
00:43:55.900 It's, it's incredibly important.
00:43:57.280 I have the black, um, make nuclear great again hat.
00:44:00.400 I love that.
00:44:01.120 I mean, we're going to need a lot of power.
00:44:02.720 We're going to need a lot of power for, for AI for sure.
00:44:05.400 And it's time we unleashed the commercial industry that is, that is capable of doing
00:44:09.480 this.
00:44:09.760 Like to me, when, you know, thinking about it, NASA, the next, you know, the pivot away
00:44:13.840 from the big, you know, rockets that, that they're working on now to the future is nuclear
00:44:18.180 powered spaceships, which also provide surface nuclear power when you ultimately get there.
00:44:22.620 Thank goodness the president is clearing the way on that.
00:44:24.380 Or do you know how long it would take to launch a reactor?
00:44:27.340 You'd never do it.
00:44:27.640 Even to transport the fissile material.
00:44:29.540 You can't build one that stays on the planet.
00:44:33.580 I totally agree.
00:44:34.600 I totally, I totally agree.
00:44:36.380 And, um, look, I think he's doing a lot of things like the, the, we, we don't have like
00:44:40.840 a, in terms of like getting our, our 37 trillion, um, national debt under control.
00:44:46.140 I don't think we have a revenue problem.
00:44:48.840 We have a, we have a spending problem now it's at 37 trillion.
00:44:52.660 We may not be able to get out of this without trying to adjust the revenue, the revenue
00:44:56.500 problem as well.
00:44:57.120 But we have a lot, uh, of money that we are spending in, in kind of all the, all the general
00:45:02.660 right areas.
00:45:03.220 It's just so much of it isn't making it down to the, to the ultimate project.
00:45:07.380 Um, so the fact that government, that, that the president is trying to, you know, break
00:45:11.420 some of the bureaucracy, shrink the government.
00:45:13.160 So those resources can be applied to what's necessary for our national security is vitally
00:45:17.840 important.
00:45:18.180 I just hope it's not too late.
00:45:19.100 But isn't that where the private market comes in?
00:45:23.400 Cause I thought when I, you know, I'm thinking, you know, AI is going to consume 99% of our
00:45:32.480 current power generation.
00:45:35.740 That's not going to work out.
00:45:37.500 Um, and I was going to ask the president about where are we on nuclear power?
00:45:43.260 And he, I didn't even ask.
00:45:45.020 He said, I'm cutting all the red tape, blah, blah, blah.
00:45:47.120 But what he said was that's for private corporations to do.
00:45:52.040 If you're a private corporation, you want to build a server farm and you need the power.
00:45:56.900 Fine.
00:45:57.180 I'll cut the red tape.
00:45:58.220 You build the power plant.
00:45:59.900 I mean, it really is this bloated system is so bloated and we have to move so fast.
00:46:08.100 It really is good to see, reach out beyond that and say, you do it.
00:46:13.100 You do it.
00:46:14.220 I'm absolutely concur.
00:46:16.080 I do think there are some things, as I kind of mentioned before, that no corporation, no
00:46:20.660 other agency is capable of doing like in the context of NASA, no one's going to build
00:46:24.220 nuclear spaceships right now and getting nuclear reactors in space.
00:46:26.980 Give us golden dome implications.
00:46:28.520 You put solid state layer, uh, lasers on them.
00:46:31.160 It's transport.
00:46:31.840 It's, it's terrestrial power when you actually get to Mars.
00:46:34.580 But there are some things like, is our commercial industry capable of building nuclear reactors?
00:46:39.360 Absolutely.
00:46:39.840 And should the president be trying to cut as much red tape and enable them to do it?
00:46:43.500 You need enough competent ones though, and enough competition that when they actually
00:46:48.380 get the approvals, they can get things done quickly and they don't take forever.
00:46:52.680 And, you know, in the defense world, you got a lot of consolidation there that moves very
00:46:57.140 slow.
00:46:57.840 But then thankfully, cause I, at one point thought the only way you're going to get them
00:47:01.440 in gear is to actually break them up.
00:47:02.880 You've got companies like Anderol now who are, you know, like the SpaceX of the defense
00:47:07.600 industry saying, if you're going to keep moving at a snail's pace, I'm going to come in and
00:47:11.100 break all this up for you, which is actually our system working as designed, which is great
00:47:15.260 to see.
00:47:17.120 Um, and one more question on the, the guy nomination withdrawal, you said was quote, one
00:47:22.680 guy who probably made a mistake.
00:47:24.480 Who's the one guy and what was his mistake?
00:47:28.320 I mean, I'm, I am, uh, I acknowledge that this whole situation generally had very little to do
00:47:33.780 with me.
00:47:34.140 So I'm, I'm not like an active combatant.
00:47:36.360 I might've taken a shot in this.
00:47:37.660 So I'm, I'm not naming like any, any, any names on this.
00:47:40.920 I just think where the real mistake was like, if you, if you, if you didn't like me, shoot
00:47:45.780 me in the head in January or February, don't, don't wait six months to go through the whole
00:47:51.240 Senate confirmation process, put together a whole plan and then shoot me because what
00:47:55.060 happens is, you know, uh, the world's greatest space agency is left without political leadership.
00:48:00.160 There is no, there's no leadership.
00:48:02.100 Yeah.
00:48:02.280 I mean, you know, I think it was a good move.
00:48:04.180 The president recently put, um, you know, secretary Duffy and is the, the acting, um,
00:48:08.380 administrator.
00:48:08.980 He's got a lot of responsibilities as a, as a, as a, the transportation secretary, but, um,
00:48:14.420 you know, you, you wait that whole time for Elon to be shown the door and then to settle
00:48:18.580 a score with me.
00:48:19.240 And at the expense of what, like my life's okay, I can go back to doing other things.
00:48:23.260 It's, it's NASA that gets left in a very, you know, uh, difficult spot during turbulent
00:48:28.360 times.
00:48:28.740 And that's, you know, that's where, that's where I think he made a mistake.
00:48:31.460 It's not necessarily about me.
00:48:32.400 There's a lot of really people, great people.
00:48:33.960 I have no doubt that could run that.
00:48:35.340 If the president asks you to come back, would you?
00:48:38.160 For sure.
00:48:38.680 I would, I mean, I, I would, um, I felt like I, I mean, look, I dropped out of school at 16
00:48:44.240 and have lived an extraordinary life.
00:48:46.140 That's the American dream at its finest right there.
00:48:48.600 I absolutely have a debt to the country and I would, I would give back and serve in any
00:48:52.980 capacity.
00:48:54.620 Claudia was leaving for her pickleball tournament.
00:48:56.820 I've been visualizing my match all week.
00:48:59.340 She was so focused on visualizing that she didn't see the column behind her car on her
00:49:03.480 backhand side.
00:49:04.260 Good thing.
00:49:06.020 Claudia is with intact the insurer with the largest network of auto service centers in
00:49:10.240 the country.
00:49:11.040 Everything was taken care of under one roof and she was on her way in a rental car in
00:49:14.860 no time.
00:49:15.520 I made it to my tournament and lost in the first round, but you got there on time.
00:49:20.820 Intact insurance, your auto service.
00:49:22.760 What are the biggest things that are coming our way that you think, I wish people would
00:49:31.800 pay attention to this.
00:49:32.940 They don't understand what.
00:49:35.860 Well, I think we've actually, I think we've actually touched on a lot of them is that,
00:49:40.220 um, for the first time we have one hell of a competitor in a long time.
00:49:44.780 I mean, even during the cold war, we, is it true?
00:49:47.820 Um, somebody said to me, a billionaire, um, who actually was there opening up China.
00:49:54.300 Um, and he said to me, well, China will never beat us at this point because they don't, they
00:50:03.920 can copy, but they can't out think.
00:50:07.980 And I'm not sure that's true anymore.
00:50:10.960 That is totally a dated, dated type of thinking.
00:50:13.200 And, and I heard that a lot when we were replicating the Chinese tactics, um, you know, at Drakken
00:50:18.620 as a, as adversaries.
00:50:20.040 And in 2011, in 2012, it was, oh, their engines are no good.
00:50:23.520 They, they buy everything from Russia and reverse engineer it.
00:50:26.520 Um, things happen quickly over there.
00:50:29.300 Relying on 10 or 15 year old information on China is a mistake.
00:50:32.760 That is a, that's a, might as well be centuries ago.
00:50:35.200 They, they do at some point, at some stage, they copy reverse engineer and make it better.
00:50:40.520 Now they have their whole general line of thinking.
00:50:42.520 They've totally, as a country that once depended on buying, uh, you know, old hardware from
00:50:47.360 Russia, um, they now like their spaceship is better.
00:50:51.640 They're building six generation fighters and showing it off over the, over the holidays.
00:50:56.000 Russia doesn't even have six generation fighters.
00:50:58.300 We just committed to ours.
00:51:00.320 The F 47 that the president unveiled a couple of months ago.
00:51:03.340 So they've been showing them off.
00:51:04.580 What is a six generation fighter?
00:51:05.800 So, uh, so fifth gen is stealth.
00:51:07.720 So that's your F 22, F 35, or low observable, harder to see.
00:51:11.780 Six generation is what comes after that.
00:51:13.860 That's where like the plane really can't even fly if it isn't with special computers that
00:51:19.240 are compensating for like really dramatic, um, like airframe designs.
00:51:23.880 No, no vertical stabilizers on them.
00:51:26.680 Um, think of like the B two, but shrunk down in a fighter form.
00:51:30.780 Um, and they're going higher, faster.
00:51:32.820 They're doing radical things like post stall maneuvering where, you know, the plane shouldn't
00:51:36.780 be flying, but it still can point because it has thrown so much thrust.
00:51:39.660 They're data linking all their heart.
00:51:41.520 And in any case, like the idea that like, Hey, they just are reverse engineering.
00:51:45.300 Everything is it's really old thinking.
00:51:47.900 Um, they're, they're moving, they're moving really quick.
00:51:50.780 I, I, I, I truly believe like, I, you know, if, unless we get our, get our act together
00:51:56.060 in this, they will for sure get back to the moon before we can.
00:51:58.860 And that will be what a shock to the system.
00:52:01.880 Like there should be congressional hearings at that.
00:52:04.300 It should be like, what went wrong that we were able to do this knowing very little in
00:52:08.280 the 1960s that we've spent over a hundred billion.
00:52:11.200 That's how much we spent today between Constellation and Artemis.
00:52:14.160 And we still can't get back.
00:52:15.620 Well, Artemis, I mean, when Trump first took over and I don't think he even knew this, I
00:52:20.300 was doing a show on, I can't remember.
00:52:25.000 Uh, I think it was on DEI and, um, how that's just taking our focus so far away from merit.
00:52:34.060 Um, and, um, and I got a call from somebody.
00:52:38.280 And they showed us that the whole Artemis program had been shifted where its goal was
00:52:46.560 to put the first black woman on the moon.
00:52:49.000 And it's like, I don't care who it is.
00:52:52.620 Let's get to the moon.
00:52:54.560 Let's get to the moon.
00:52:55.500 If it happens to be a woman, she's black.
00:52:57.800 Great, great.
00:52:59.620 But our, it seems as though so many of our priorities are just upside down.
00:53:08.300 You know, it's, it's interesting when I was going, um, and meeting with all the senators
00:53:12.380 one-on-one first, whether senators on both sides, the aisle care, I met with plenty of
00:53:16.980 Republican senators.
00:53:17.780 They're saying, I want to make sure we're still planning to put a, you know, a woman
00:53:20.740 on the moon when we, when we go back to, and my answer to both sides was the same.
00:53:25.160 We got to get back to the moon.
00:53:26.320 It's exactly what you just said.
00:53:27.580 We have spent a hundred billion dollars.
00:53:29.240 Every president since 1989 has called for a return to the moon and a path to Mars.
00:53:34.840 And, and we have yet to deliver on that.
00:53:37.220 So look, you know, we need to be doing what, first, how do you solve like a talent problem
00:53:42.040 too?
00:53:42.400 And this whole thing is like, if you're working on the near impossible that no one else is
00:53:46.000 capable of doing, you're going to track the best and brightest.
00:53:48.240 There's no doubt about that.
00:53:49.740 And then focus the best and brightest on the mission and nothing else.
00:53:53.560 We need to get back to the moon.
00:53:54.980 We need a path to Mars.
00:53:56.400 How are we going to do it?
00:53:57.620 And all the other things, you know, are, are, are totally like when we get there, we'll,
00:54:02.560 we'll, we'll figure it out.
00:54:04.120 How close is China?
00:54:05.800 They have said publicly that they will get there before 2030.
00:54:10.040 They've since revised.
00:54:11.520 There's no way we're going to, we're going to make that.
00:54:13.180 They've revised their estimates saying potentially as early as 2028, but I don't know why they
00:54:16.960 would tell us the truth.
00:54:18.240 Like the best thing for them is to let us continue to stagnate on this and then get there and say,
00:54:22.940 look, we are, we are the might now in the high ground of space and we're moving on to the
00:54:27.300 next stop.
00:54:27.900 So yeah, it's, uh, I'm, I'm nervous about our ability to get back to the moon.
00:54:32.640 Is it a possibility?
00:54:34.320 I mean, you saw my Sputnik, um, Sputnik kicked us in the ass.
00:54:40.400 I mean, it's what started everything.
00:54:42.600 Um, and that's when we got serious when the Russians, when we were like, wait, what did
00:54:48.300 they just do?
00:54:49.580 That's when we got serious.
00:54:51.060 We're always best when we are down on the mat.
00:54:55.040 I don't know if that's true anymore.
00:54:56.580 Cause we've lost a lot of the fight in us, but, uh, could that be the thing that we need
00:55:05.300 to kick us in the butt?
00:55:06.640 You know, I felt that way.
00:55:07.580 And I, I often said that amongst some of my associates long before this nomination, but
00:55:11.840 while in the space industry, it was like, maybe, maybe America needs the Chinese to get
00:55:15.340 to the moon to have a wake-up call when I was, uh, nominated to lead NASA.
00:55:19.140 I was like, there's no way in hell we're going to let that happen.
00:55:21.640 So, um, but I think the real fear though, right now is there could be a Sputnik moment
00:55:25.900 across so many domains.
00:55:27.160 It's not just in space, right?
00:55:28.620 I mean, you've got, you know, fusion power, nuclear research, you've got quantum, you've
00:55:32.760 got AI.
00:55:33.900 I mean, where are we on that stuff?
00:55:36.760 Do you know?
00:55:37.620 I mean, I, I just think we always are trying to repurpose a lot of things we already have
00:55:42.900 that have turned to various broad-based science or other initiatives and trying to refocus
00:55:47.360 them back onto like the, the near impossible.
00:55:49.860 The big thing is hard to do versus start from scratch.
00:55:52.900 You know, China just says, get me the best 10, the 10 best people working on quantum computing
00:55:57.040 and put them here because it makes sense to put them here and give them whatever they
00:56:00.140 need.
00:56:00.560 And they just go and run.
00:56:02.420 Um, you know, for example, like, um, you know, Stennis, uh, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a
00:56:07.960 NASA center in Mississippi.
00:56:09.080 They've been working their principally work on the RS 25 motor.
00:56:12.760 The RS 25 motor is the space shuttle motor.
00:56:15.460 It's essentially a 55 year old, um, motor.
00:56:19.280 It's an awesome motor.
00:56:20.260 It's great motor.
00:56:20.900 That's, that's what they do primarily there.
00:56:23.060 Now they've done a good job working with commercial industry.
00:56:25.040 Their governor is great.
00:56:25.940 I'm bringing in other people to test engines, but they're just doing that versus like at
00:56:30.360 the time it was first established of you will just do engines.
00:56:33.580 And when you figure this one out, you move on to the next one versus entrenching on something
00:56:36.880 they have, because I don't know what's coming next and I don't want to fear not having something
00:56:41.260 next.
00:56:41.600 So I better hold onto it.
00:56:43.460 That's a recipe for disaster.
00:56:45.360 But I think that exists across, you know, again, it's not just NASA.
00:56:48.520 I think it's across the government.
00:56:49.560 We have a lot of people that get entrenched in the past instead of working on the future.
00:56:53.360 But I don't understand how people don't see that's the secret of SpaceX.
00:56:58.860 SpaceX and quite honestly, Elon Musk, it's, I got a crazy idea.
00:57:05.160 Let's get a bunch of crazy people to do it and then just do it.
00:57:09.820 Politicians are to blame too in this whole thing too.
00:57:11.760 I mean, if you've got big, you know, in-state equities, a couple centers and you're working
00:57:15.380 on something and you're like, well, maybe the right thing to do for the country is to
00:57:19.380 move on to this.
00:57:20.360 But I don't know if I can take the risk on the, on the, on the workforce.
00:57:24.200 You know, and I remember I had a great conversation actually with Senator Kennedy in Louisiana.
00:57:29.720 The Michoud plant is where they build the, a lot of the SLS rocket and assemble it.
00:57:34.260 And he was great.
00:57:35.340 He's like, just, just tell me what's coming next.
00:57:38.340 And I was like, sir, I'm so glad you, you asked that instead of just saying, we got
00:57:42.200 to keep doing what we're doing.
00:57:43.100 Because, you know, my understanding of the history of Michoud is it made landing craft
00:57:46.680 during World War II.
00:57:47.660 It made the Saturn rocket.
00:57:49.220 It made the space shuttle.
00:57:50.420 It's making SLS now.
00:57:51.840 What's the right thing next?
00:57:52.920 Let's not keep making battleships when everybody pivots the aircraft carrier.
00:57:56.060 He was very receptive to that.
00:57:57.520 Love it.
00:57:57.700 But not everybody is.
00:57:58.740 Yeah, I know.
00:57:59.640 I know.
00:58:00.180 It's great to meet you.
00:58:01.280 Great to talk to you.
00:58:02.360 Thank you very much.
00:58:03.120 No pleasure.
00:58:03.580 Thanks for having me on.
00:58:09.780 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on
00:58:14.900 to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.
00:58:22.920 I'll see you on the next time.
00:58:29.640 Bye.
00:58:30.180 Bye.
00:58:30.660 Bye.
00:58:31.060 Bye.
00:58:32.340 Bye.
00:58:32.780 Bye.
00:58:33.180 Bye.
00:58:33.680 Bye.
00:58:34.180 Bye.
00:58:34.220 Bye.
00:58:34.640 Bye.
00:58:35.260 Bye.
00:58:35.420 Bye.
00:58:35.980 Bye.
00:58:36.100 Bye.
00:58:36.200 Bye.
00:58:36.980 Bye.
00:58:37.200 Bye.
00:58:37.360 Bye.
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