The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 261 ｜ Epstein's Lawyer Makes SHOCKING CLAIM About Client List ｜ Alan Dershowitz ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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00:00:34.300 Hello, America. You know we've been fighting every single day. 0.99

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00:01:19.440 Joining me this week is one of the most celebrated lawyers in the world.

00:01:25.640 He was the youngest full professor in Harvard Law School, Harvard Law School history, where he is now the professor of law emeritus.

00:01:33.700 He is also the author of numerous bestselling books, including Guilt by Accusation and The Case Against Impeaching Trump.

00:01:40.980 His latest book, The Preventative State, he says is the most important book he's ever written.

00:01:45.700 It takes a deep dive into the authoritarian tyranny that the left tries to enact on a daily basis.

00:01:52.100 He is also the man with the most knowledge on the topic of every person in America that every person in America is dying to learn about.

00:01:59.700 And that is Jeffrey Epstein.

00:02:02.040 Joining me now, please welcome Alan Dershowitz.

00:02:15.700 Alan, welcome to the program.

00:02:21.440 Thanks for having me.

00:02:22.460 I appreciate it.

00:02:23.240 Nice to see you.

00:02:24.020 Keep doing great things.

00:02:25.180 Thank you.

00:02:25.980 So, you know, the shooting that happened this week in New York, I did a monologue right after the shooting where I said, you know, basically quoting Adams,

00:02:37.140 this system is wholly inadequate for a immoral and irreligious people. 1.00

00:02:44.460 We just have to have more and more monitoring, more and more laws.

00:02:49.080 And that is not consistent with our Constitution and our way of life.

00:02:54.260 I think, you know, there's so much mental illness.

00:02:57.000 I want to get into what what do we do to prevent, you know, that to stop that, but also the red flag laws and your your book, The Preventative State.

00:03:08.880 Just the name of it scares the hell out of me, Alan.

00:03:12.460 Sure.

00:03:13.120 But it's intended to.

00:03:14.620 Yeah, it's.

00:03:15.740 You know, I live just around the corner from where the shooting occurred.

00:03:20.700 We live on 54th Street.

00:03:22.960 This was on 52nd Street.

00:03:24.580 I walk by that building every day, virtually.

00:03:29.380 So.

00:03:31.660 What's failing us?

00:03:36.840 Well, what's what's failing us is our inability to anticipate particularly what people who we don't understand will do to us.

00:03:48.440 We have no way of comprehending a young man like this and what's going through his red is addled brain. 0.55

00:03:56.000 It's just very, very difficult.

00:03:58.240 And if we try to lock up everybody like that, we'll have a million people or more in prison.

00:04:03.940 We used to have that when I started doing my research on this back in the 1960s.

00:04:08.800 There were more people in mental health detention than in prison.

00:04:12.860 So that's one of the things I talked about is, you know, the president just said we need to put more people in through medical, you know, mental health centers.

00:04:24.520 And I remember what that was like in the 60s and 70s.

00:04:28.760 I remember when Ronald Reagan, you know, shut those down and a lot of people went out on the streets and they the state is not a good caretaker of people.

00:04:40.880 I don't I don't want to get back into that business with the state because that's a nightmare waiting to happen.

00:04:48.040 Or is it I agree you do agree we're we're a country of extremes.

00:04:53.160 We move from one extreme to the other.

00:04:55.400 We moved from locking up many, many, too many people in mental hospitals, which became snake pits to releasing suddenly onto the street without adequate concerns for how we might deal with them in a less compulsory manner.

00:05:09.920 But what happened?

00:05:12.420 I mean, you know, I remember when the streets, when Reagan first let people out and there was there were more, you know, mental there was more mental illness on the streets.

00:05:23.780 But it wasn't like it is now.

00:05:25.720 I mean, you walk down the streets of of any major city and it is it's crazy central.

00:05:32.220 We're becoming in many cities, Gotham.

00:05:37.000 Yeah, and people are frightened.

00:05:39.920 I lived on the New York subways growing up.

00:05:42.740 I went everywhere for a nickel.

00:05:44.640 You could go to the Island.

00:05:46.000 You could go to the Metropolitan Opera.

00:05:48.280 The train, the subway was our life today.

00:05:52.720 Almost nobody I know takes the subway.

00:05:55.600 They're terrified that they're going to be locked in this tin container with crazy people who will do crazy things.

00:06:02.700 We saw what happened when this young Marine risked his life to try to save people on the subway.

00:06:09.640 And he was charged with a homicide.

00:06:12.320 Fortunately, he was acquitted.

00:06:13.780 But it took so much away from him to have to defend himself from that.

00:06:18.960 So you talk about red flag laws in the book.

00:06:22.200 Take us through that, because that's something that people say.

00:06:25.160 This guy was known to be mentally unwell.

00:06:29.280 So what's the problem with the red flag law?

00:06:31.480 Well, there's no problem if you use the red flag law against somebody like that to make sure he doesn't get the gun.

00:06:39.200 The problem is if you prevent everybody who has his symptoms from getting a gun,

00:06:46.920 you're going to interfere with the Second Amendment rights of ordinary people to have guns.

00:06:51.360 So we have to strike an appropriate balance.

00:06:55.120 And that's the difficult task that all governments have and that all governments fail.

00:07:00.520 In my book, The Preventive State, I go through every conceivable issue of when the state steps in to take preventive action,

00:07:08.540 ranging from mandatory inoculations to dropping weapons on nuclear facilities to trying to prevent climate disasters.

00:07:21.280 And I would say the state never gets better than about a C minus in any of its activities.

00:07:27.880 And, you know, the goal of the preventive state is to move it up from a C minus to a B plus.

00:07:32.860 We're never going to get higher than that.

00:07:34.380 We're never going to get it perfect.

00:07:35.560 We're never going to be able to create a situation where we stop all the potential killers without also confining lots of people that would never, never kill.

00:07:47.580 We have to strike that balance.

00:07:49.380 Look, this begins in the Bible with Abraham arguing with God.

00:07:54.960 Can you imagine the scene?

00:07:57.320 Here's Abraham.

00:07:58.360 He meets his new God and he yells at him.

00:08:01.720 He says in the Hebrew, it would be impure of you. 0.78

00:08:06.340 It would be wrong of you.

00:08:07.760 It would be unkosher of you to sweep away the innocent along with the guilty.

00:08:13.060 How dare you do that?

00:08:14.940 What if there are 50 innocent people?

00:08:17.580 And then Abraham argues with God and gets them down to 10.

00:08:21.160 But it's never perfect.

00:08:22.440 It doesn't get them down to zero.

00:08:23.980 God admits that you might have to confine 10 innocent people or even execute 10 innocent people to prevent the horrors of letting all those people go free, the people of Saddam. 0.92

00:08:35.740 Right, because we have always been a country that said, if you have to let, you know, 10 guilty people go for one innocent man, we've always been.

00:08:46.540 You can't do that to the innocent guy.

00:08:49.880 But, you know, we've said it, but we haven't really meant what we've done.

00:08:55.480 And, you know, you tell a jury, look, if the guy is guilty, but there's any doubt, you know, let him go free because it's better for 10 guilty to go free than one innocent to be wrongly confined.

00:09:08.240 Most jurors are going to say, look, we want to know whether this guy did it.

00:09:11.320 If he did it, we want to put him away.

00:09:13.480 If he's going to do it again, we want to put him away for an even longer period of time.

00:09:17.640 That's the way juries think.

00:09:18.980 Yeah, you know, abstract philosophers sitting in Harvard's ivory towers couldn't write things like better 10 guilty go free than one innocent to be wrongly confined.

00:09:28.840 But when you take 12 jurors off the street who have been on the subway or have been on the streets where crazy people are threatening them, they think a little differently than the abstract philosophers.

00:09:39.680 Look, it was Thomas Jefferson who said, put a problem to a plowman or a philosopher, and I'm more likely to go with the plowman or Bill Buckley said he'd rather be ruled by the hundred first people in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty.

00:09:55.740 And having been on the Harvard faculty for 61 years now, I tend to agree with him.

00:10:01.780 Why? Why is that?

00:10:02.860 Because pure intellect of the kind that universities try to pick often do not include the most basic core common sense.

00:10:13.740 The reason your show is so successful is you're a guy who exudes common sense.

00:10:19.460 You sit there and you talk and everybody who listens to you says, we don't know what kind of grades this guy got in high school or college, but we recognize a man of common sense when we see him.

00:10:31.580 And you excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse that you make it clear that you're a person who who does things from a common sense point of view.

00:10:42.020 And in doing so, you speak for the average American.

00:10:46.460 It doesn't seem like we have any common sense left.

00:10:49.700 I mean, at least I don't I don't know what it is, Ellen.

00:10:53.680 I, I, I go all across the country and I meet people all across the country and people who disagree with me.

00:10:59.800 But when they're regular people, they know this is right.

00:11:04.500 This is wrong.

00:11:05.180 This is right.

00:11:05.780 This is wrong.

00:11:06.440 And we're pretty close lined up.

00:11:08.300 Even if they vote differently, we're pretty closely lined up on what's right and wrong.

00:11:12.680 And I agree with.

00:11:14.540 I agree with you completely.

00:11:16.280 I grew up on the streets of Brooklyn.

00:11:17.960 All my friends were the sons and daughters of immigrants from Italy, from, from, from Ireland, from Greece, from even Norway, from Poland, from Germany.

00:11:33.880 And, and, and we all, we had different religious perspectives.

00:11:37.980 We had different political views, but we all shared a sense of we know what the heck's going on.

00:11:43.380 Don't try to fool us.

00:11:45.020 We can see through you.

00:11:46.420 And that's kind of, you know, Brooklyn sensitivities and sensibilities that I think is very much closer to what people who grew up on farms and in rural areas have than what fancy people who grew up in high, you know, very, very high buildings with a close connection to the earth that they stand on.

00:12:09.600 Yeah, I, I read something, uh, written in 1946 by D no, sorry, 1943 by Dietrich, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 0.98

00:12:17.420 And he, he said, uh, that I'm horribly paraphrasing, but basically stupidity is the problem. 1.00

00:12:25.540 It's, it's, it's, it's the stupid of the world. 1.00

00:12:29.500 And he didn't mean not intellectual, not, uh, educated. 1.00

00:12:34.640 He meant the people who had just assigned their critical thinking to someone else, to some ideology or, uh, just, just stopped thinking. 0.99

00:12:47.100 And he said, there, there's, there's no way to argue with the stupid because they're no longer thinking or questioning. 1.00

00:12:55.540 It's so interesting. I'll tell you a fascinating story about a man who you and I both admire. 1.00

00:13:01.800 Um, his name was Antonin Scalia, great justice in court.

00:13:06.140 And he and I was sitting with a glass of wine at a, at a, uh, uh, bistro, uh, not far from where in Jerusalem, not far from where Jesus had been crucified.

00:13:18.740 And, uh, we both had a glass of wine and we were good friends.

00:13:22.600 And I said to him, Nino, you know, you're the smartest guy I know in the world.

00:13:26.940 You're, I just don't know anybody smarter than you.

00:13:29.280 Here we are right near where you say Jesus was crucified, buried, and then after three days arose.

00:13:38.060 I mean, how can that have happened physiologically?

00:13:43.040 And I said, do you actually believe it?

00:13:45.260 He says, I believe it with every fiber of my soul.

00:13:48.680 I said, well, but you're so smart.

00:13:50.540 How can you do that? 0.99

00:13:51.580 He said, Alan, you don't understand when it comes to belief in Jesus, I am a fool for Christ. 0.99

00:13:57.800 That was his exact words. 0.99

00:13:59.080 Wow. 1.00

00:13:59.320 I am a fool for Christ. 1.00

00:14:00.660 I suspend my rational mind when it comes to my religious beliefs. 0.99

00:14:05.620 He says, when it comes to everything else, it has to be completely rational, common sense.

00:14:11.360 I will never believe anything like that about anything other than my deep faith in the resurrection

00:14:18.440 of Jesus.

00:14:19.360 And it was so different from the way I was brought up, but it was so enlightening.

00:14:24.340 And I really understood Justice Scalia better, having had that wonderful conversation with

00:14:30.080 him, than I had ever understood any religious differences that I might have with people before.

00:14:36.480 It was such a brilliant acknowledgement that there's one part of him that he won't subject

00:14:42.400 to the kind of empirical, scientific, null hypothesis analysis.

00:14:51.760 More with Alan here in a second.

00:14:53.280 When you think about preparedness, a lot of the time you focus on food, water, and maybe

00:14:57.400 a generator.

00:14:58.220 But there's one critical piece people often overlook, and that's medication.

00:15:02.120 What happens if there's a shortage?

00:15:04.020 What happens if prices skyrocket?

00:15:06.160 It's not just a possibility.

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00:15:57.120 Back to Dershowitz.

00:15:57.920 Let's go to your book and talk about, let's talk about crime and the things that a preventative

00:16:06.120 state can do or might do that might work out to not be in humanity's best interest.

00:16:15.700 What are we looking at?

00:16:17.180 Let's just start with crime.

00:16:18.340 Well, we start with crime, first of all, as Thomas Jefferson once said, in order to define

00:16:27.180 what a crime should be, you have to think of it as somebody running while reading a book,

00:16:34.680 running while reading.

00:16:36.280 And he has to be able to read the criminal statute and he has to be able to understand it

00:16:41.940 so that he can act on it.

00:16:43.540 So the first thing we need is clarity.

00:16:46.020 And we don't have it.

00:16:47.220 We have these laws, these conspiracy laws, these RICO laws.

00:16:53.620 Take, for example, the crime that was charged against Donald Trump, failing to disclose

00:17:00.860 hush payments and instead listing them as legal expenses.

00:17:07.020 You know, I've been teaching criminal law 61 years.

00:17:11.220 I don't understand the charge against them.

00:17:13.560 I simply don't understand it.

00:17:15.760 And the first thing you have to have for law to work is absolute clarity.

00:17:21.080 The law has to be written in simple terms.

00:17:23.300 You know, there's a story about an old emperor back in the day who was told he had to write

00:17:29.860 the laws, but he wrote them in a hand so small and put them so high that nobody could

00:17:35.880 read it.

00:17:38.140 And that's the way tyrannies work. 1.00

00:17:41.340 If you know what's illegal and what's illegal, if you know where the line is, at least you

00:17:47.360 can do the Hamlet soliloquy to be or not to be a criminal.

00:17:53.220 I'm now crossing the line to criminality.

00:17:55.480 But too many people cross that line inadvertently and accidentally.

00:17:59.420 So the first thing we need is clear laws.

00:18:01.060 And we need laws that are preventive in nature.

00:18:04.760 For example, let me give you, why do we prohibit good drivers from driving 120 miles an hour?

00:18:12.580 They might not ever crash, but we want to prevent crashes.

00:18:17.480 And so we reduce the speed limit to 70 in an effort to prevent.

00:18:22.640 Now, the vast majority of people who go over 70 would never, ever have an accident, but some

00:18:27.780 will.

00:18:28.440 So we set a law, we pick a number, it's 70.

00:18:32.220 And that's kind of a metaphor for how we have to decide what to prohibit and what not to prohibit.

00:18:39.740 There are so many examples of how we over legislate and also under legislate.

00:18:48.360 So we have to give me some over and then give me some under.

00:18:51.320 Okay, yeah, easy.

00:18:54.160 So prohibition was over, you know, between 19, what it was at 18 and 1932.

00:19:02.780 We went into people's living rooms and bedrooms and told them they couldn't have a brandy after

00:19:09.020 dinner, even though the vast, vast, vast majority of people who would have a drink wouldn't do

00:19:14.740 anything, wouldn't do anything.

00:19:16.440 And we learned our lesson.

00:19:17.940 And after realizing that prohibition caused more crimes than it stopped, we, for the only

00:19:25.380 time in our history, eliminated a constitutional amendment by another constitutional amendment.

00:19:31.700 The area where we've under, for a while, used to under criminalize, perhaps was the easy

00:19:43.200 availability of guns.

00:19:45.080 We've now made it much harder, obviously.

00:19:47.480 And we've had to compromise the Second Amendment to do that.

00:19:50.780 Just the way we've had to compromise a little bit on the First Amendment.

00:19:54.200 When it comes to, you know, Congress will make no law abridging the freedom of speech.

00:19:58.960 Well, maybe some laws, if you incite people to immediate violence, even though it's by

00:20:06.960 your words, maybe you can be prosecuted.

00:20:10.540 So that is, but that is not as far as where I think people think that line is, you know,

00:20:16.440 hey, you can't cry fire in a crowded movie house.

00:20:19.540 Well, actually you can.

00:20:21.000 But if you cry fire, because I've done it on stage several times, unless it's immediate

00:20:28.160 incites violence and death.

00:20:30.860 Well, that's a pretty narrow path.

00:20:35.060 It's not what everybody thinks it is.

00:20:37.520 It's still very narrow.

00:20:39.920 I think that's right.

00:20:41.640 Now, I make a prediction here.

00:20:42.760 I think in the next half a century, we're going to see a little bit of a cutting back

00:20:48.640 on that theory.

00:20:50.920 I don't think people are going to be allowed to engage in free speech that endangers human

00:20:59.340 life under the standard of incitement to immediate violence.

00:21:04.460 That test may not have worked.

00:21:07.260 And it's the virtue of the Supreme Court and its vice at the same time that it can do things

00:21:15.520 and correct its mistakes.

00:21:17.860 So wait, so where do you think it should be?

00:21:21.520 Well, I think it should be incitement, but not to immediate.

00:21:26.000 It should be incitement.

00:21:27.780 If you...

00:21:28.780 Boy, Alan, that scares the hell out of me because I have been blamed for the shooting on Gabby

00:21:34.460 Giffords.

00:21:34.960 I've been, I've been, I've been, uh...

00:21:38.040 But you haven't, you haven't incited it.

00:21:40.040 No, but it depends on who's defining it.

00:21:43.180 Depends on if, and the power shift, you know what I mean?

00:21:47.680 What court it's in, et cetera, et cetera.

00:21:50.080 I think, look, there are risks on both sides.

00:21:55.200 Or to move it to the international.

00:21:57.880 Look, we made a terrible mistake in 1935 by not attacking Hitler. 0.90

00:22:04.200 When he was still vulnerable while he was violating the Versailles Treaty, we were afraid

00:22:09.500 that if France and England attacked Hitler, it would cause 10,000 deaths.

00:22:15.040 And it probably would have caused 10,000 deaths, but it would have saved 50 million, 50 million

00:22:19.580 lives.

00:22:20.400 So we made a terrible mistake there.

00:22:22.660 We probably made a mistake before 9-11 in not doing more to try to predict that kind of use

00:22:30.740 of airplanes against us.

00:22:33.280 And then we made the opposite mistake afterward.

00:22:36.500 We went into Iraq when we should have gone into Iran.

00:22:41.740 We, after the Second World War began, we put 110,000 innocent Japanese Americans in detention

00:22:51.380 centers.

00:22:52.260 That was an overreaction to the mistake we made in not being able to predict and anticipate

00:22:58.820 Pearl Harbor.

00:22:59.660 So, you know, we pay a heavy price.

00:23:02.240 In the book, The Preventive State, I argue that when we fail to stop and we fail to prevent

00:23:09.180 a mass casualty attack, often we will overreact.

00:23:14.520 You can, people believe that Israel is doing that now.

00:23:17.280 I don't happen to share that.

00:23:18.740 People believe that because Israel messed up and didn't prevent October 7th, where, you 0.75

00:23:25.380 know, innocent people were killed and 250 of them were taken captive, that now they're

00:23:32.400 overreacting in Gaza.

00:23:33.740 Well, you can agree or disagree with that, but it is clear that there is a relationship

00:23:39.860 between the failure to prevent and taking extraordinary actions after the fact.

00:23:45.340 So from every point of view, it's better to prevent if you can do it.

00:23:49.520 Grandma was right when she said a stitch in time saves nine.

00:23:54.660 I don't even know what that phrase means anymore, so maybe you can explain it.

00:24:00.280 I know my grandmother used to say it, but I don't remember what it even means.

00:24:03.740 Um, but, uh, you know, when you're, we're looking at a place and I'm, I, I, I am not

00:24:10.900 a conspiracy theorist.

00:24:12.320 I actually have railed against conspiracy theories unless it's likely that there is a conspiracy

00:24:18.520 going on.

00:24:20.080 Which it sometimes is.

00:24:21.620 Sometimes it is.

00:24:22.760 Um, and it's, it's hard not to see the, the movement of the Uber left.

00:24:30.380 I'm not talking about your regular Democrat.

00:24:31.980 I'm talking about the Uber left, um, in a way that it looks like the more chaos we can

00:24:40.800 have on the streets, the better, because then the, the regular people will rise up and cry 0.92

00:24:46.080 out for more restrictions and you get a totalitarian state.

00:24:50.120 I mean, it's what happened.

00:24:50.960 I think, was it hungry?

00:24:52.960 Yeah.

00:24:53.620 The Bolsheviks came up with that a hundred years ago. 0.62

00:24:56.380 The theory of the hard left from the beginning created, you think the hard left really cared

00:25:05.160 about civil rights in the South or gay rights.

00:25:08.720 Now they don't care about any of those issues.

00:25:11.240 They only care about getting people riled up in order to go against the government.

00:25:15.480 And that's what we're seeing now.

00:25:17.820 And that's why I left the democratic party.

00:25:20.640 I cannot be in a party that features AOC and that features so many of these other radical

00:25:27.740 left-wing extremists that want to essentially overthrow the United States government and

00:25:33.480 substitute what they call democratic socialism, but ultimately is Bolshevism.

00:25:38.240 There's never been a successful democratic country.

00:25:41.920 Ask the people from Venezuela that are pouring into our shores now, want to come to America, 1.00

00:25:47.860 hate Venezuela.

00:25:49.120 Ask all the people from Cuba about the success of Mom Donnie's approach to socialism that he

00:25:55.320 wants to bring to New York.

00:25:56.700 And that's what we have to prevent now.

00:25:59.540 But it seems as though, for instance, let's just go again to violence on the streets.

00:26:05.960 Everything is so extreme that it is, there is this pull towards a preventative state.

00:26:14.840 There's a pull towards, you know what?

00:26:17.160 Shut it down.

00:26:19.380 And that is, that's, that I'm afraid in some cases could be on the horizon to where.

00:26:27.380 No, I agree.

00:26:28.380 That's why I wrote the book now.

00:26:29.740 I've been working on this issue for, since I started teaching more than 60 years ago,

00:26:35.800 trying to figure out what the right formula is.

00:26:39.460 And ultimately at age, I'm now going to be 87 in a short period of time.

00:26:45.100 I decided I had to finally write this book and put it out as my magnum opus because we're

00:26:50.960 living in such a terrible, dangerous time where the risks and the choices are between

00:26:58.380 anarchy and authoritarianism.

00:27:00.760 And I don't like either of those alternatives.

00:27:03.120 Nobody, I don't think the average American does, but they're, they're not being presented

00:27:08.240 with any information that says there's any other option.

00:27:12.960 And I don't know what the other option is other than self-control and self-regulation.

00:27:18.100 You know, I think politically, the other option is to move toward the middle.

00:27:22.880 And we had great people like Joe Lieberman who were doing that and tragically died too

00:27:28.120 young, but we don't have Joe Lieberman's and, and, and people like that and, and Pat Moynihan's

00:27:36.180 and people who are prepared to cross party lines in order to bring us to the middle.

00:27:41.280 The vast majority of Americans are common sense centrist, but the political system, particularly

00:27:47.880 the primary system where few people vote and you can get AOC is elected and other radicals

00:27:54.560 the primary system exaggerates, I think the extremism of our country.

00:27:59.760 And if you get a candidate, like, you know, you could love them or hate them, but both Bill

00:28:05.440 Clinton and, and, and, and, and George W. Bush represented the center of both parties.

00:28:12.280 And that's why they did so well.

00:28:14.960 We thought Barack Obama, many people thought he represented the center.

00:28:18.920 I was fooled into thinking that.

00:28:21.480 And, and I rejected him after his first term, but, but it's very hard to get people to vote

00:28:29.860 in the center.

00:28:30.800 People, you know, like it's kind of exciting to vote for extremists on, on both sides.

00:28:36.920 And that's what we saw happen in Europe in the 1920s and thirties.

00:28:40.140 So help me out because, um, I've been called an extremist forever and I don't think I am.

00:28:45.860 I, I am, I, I, I, I am extreme for the constitution.

00:28:51.720 I'm extreme for, you know, civil rights. 0.65

00:28:55.500 Um, but you have people who are constitution when, when Mike Lee is known in the state

00:29:01.880 of Utah as an extremist, something is wrong.

00:29:07.420 Um, so before he was born, Mike Lee's father was my co-clerk on the United States Supreme

00:29:15.000 court in 19, the, uh, 1962, his name was Rex Lee.

00:29:20.160 He was one of the greatest lawyers of our day.

00:29:22.520 He died too young and he was a Mormon, was a Mormon and I was an Orthodox Jew.

00:29:27.860 So we both had restrictions on what we can eat and drink.

00:29:31.520 And so we always had lunch together.

00:29:33.460 Uh, and I wouldn't have my bacon and, uh, we were really good friends.

00:29:39.140 And then when Mike Lee became a Senator, uh, I thought he was great.

00:29:44.260 I mean, because he put the constitution before everything.

00:29:46.920 And, you know, when you put the constitution first, it sometimes leads you to extreme views

00:29:52.140 like you need to have incitement to direct violence before you can prohibit, uh, speech.

00:29:58.980 Or perhaps you can't require people to inoculate themselves, uh, when the risks of, uh, of, uh,

00:30:07.340 pandemic, uh, side effects are too high.

00:30:10.240 Uh, there, there are all kinds of conclusions that the constitution mandates that we might

00:30:15.700 think, or, oh, you have to let a murderer go free, a murderer go free.

00:30:20.100 If the search wasn't properly done, that's an extremist view, but it's in the constitution.

00:30:25.240 Right.

00:30:25.680 So.

00:30:25.880 So, and without that, if we're not basing, if we're not basing our views on that, then

00:30:32.480 what are we basing it on?

00:30:34.740 And we're just, you know, for people, you can base it on the Bible for constitutionalists,

00:30:40.100 you can base it on the constitution for the Bible.

00:30:43.200 I mean, you know, this Alan, the Bible was the most quoted, uh, book out of everything

00:30:49.860 they read.

00:30:50.300 It was like 28 or 32% of everything that came out of the constitution came from the, the

00:30:57.280 founders and their understanding of the Bible.

00:30:59.020 I mean, it's rich with Bible.

00:31:01.880 Oh, there's no question about that.

00:31:03.700 You just look at when I was bar misfit at age 13, you are bemisfit in a certain week.

00:31:10.700 And the week that I was bemisfit on had the portion of the Bible, which dealt with justice

00:31:15.500 and instructs the judges, two things, justice, justice must you pursue and do not recognize

00:31:23.500 basis, which means no affirmative action, no DEI, no basing decisions based on your race

00:31:31.120 or who you are or how rich you are or anything like that.

00:31:34.680 That's in the Bible.

00:31:35.820 It goes back, you know, so many, so many years and it's, it's been tested and proved to be

00:31:41.760 correct.

00:31:42.180 And, and why do we say justice, justice shall you pursue?

00:31:45.940 Why not just justice once?

00:31:47.840 Because procedural justice is as important as substantive justice.

00:31:52.620 Not only do you have to do it to do, be just, but you have to do it justly.

00:31:58.040 And, and I think if we were to go back to the Bible, both the old Testament and the new

00:32:02.900 Testament and, and read it more thoroughly and apply it, um, uh, we would be in a lot better

00:32:09.620 shape than the anarchy and, uh, uh, uh, kind of woke, uh, uh, approach that we have today

00:32:18.540 in so many areas.

00:32:19.580 So I know that Arkansas and Texas, and I think Kentucky is about to come on, um, to, uh, put

00:32:26.140 the 10 commandments if people present them in a certain way and they can, they have to go

00:32:31.980 into the school classrooms and everybody's having a hard time with that.

00:32:37.020 And I'm like, you know, you could look at those as biblical, you look at those as messages

00:32:42.180 from God, or you can look at them as the basis of all civilization.

00:32:48.240 That is the basis of civilization.

00:32:50.380 If you want to say no God before me, well, maybe that's your car.

00:32:53.320 Maybe that's your job.

00:32:54.260 It doesn't have to be the God of the old Testament, but it is the, that's the entire basis of who

00:33:00.540 we are as a Western civilization.

00:33:03.900 But the problem is even the 10 commandments is controversial.

00:33:07.820 Uh, five of them probably aren't the last five that shall not murder that shall not,

00:33:12.740 you know, but the first five are a little, you know, controversial.

00:33:17.260 Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. 0.94

00:33:19.640 God damn it. 0.99

00:33:20.320 I don't like that one. 0.99

00:33:21.320 Uh, but, uh, you know, that's the way you read it.

00:33:24.200 If that's the way you read it.

00:33:25.760 I mean, I read it.

00:33:26.680 I can read that in a way that says, you know, the Lord speaks with power.

00:33:32.020 He creates, he speaks.

00:33:33.480 So don't speak.

00:33:35.560 I mean, the Lord's name and, you know, the way I view it is I am don't say things follow.

00:33:41.620 I am with something that is negative because your words will create whatever it is.

00:33:47.000 So don't take his name in vain means, you know, to me, don't speak things into existence

00:33:55.040 that, uh, are negative, are, are bad, that are not good.

00:34:00.080 I have a personal ideology, but I wouldn't make it the law.

00:34:04.140 Yeah.

00:34:04.360 I wouldn't allow the state to enforce that.

00:34:07.200 That's why I'm not in favor of the 10 commandments, uh, being mandated for schools.

00:34:14.560 I am in favor of parents teaching their children the 10 commandments and churches emphasizing that

00:34:21.220 and, uh, private institutions emphasizing that.

00:34:25.000 But I do believe in the separation of, of church and state.

00:34:28.180 I think that's good for the church and it's good for the state.

00:34:31.200 How would you, how would you ask, how would you answer Thomas Jefferson allowing the Senate,

00:34:37.580 uh, in his day to be church on Sunday?

00:34:40.740 Isn't that.

00:34:41.420 Well, there's no question that we never separated church and state completely.

00:34:46.300 Indeed, the very concept that Jefferson said is not in the constitution.

00:34:50.660 It was a letter to the Baptist convention.

00:34:53.960 Right.

00:34:54.160 Um, um, but Jefferson himself, as you know, was a deist and he rewrote the new Testament

00:35:01.100 to eliminate the miracle.

00:35:02.720 The Jefferson Bible, which today is used as the official Bible of the Unitarian church,

00:35:08.180 um, is something that, uh, uh, has endured.

00:35:12.960 So, you know, the founders were interesting people, uh, George Washington drove his wife

00:35:18.380 to church every Sunday, but mostly sat outside and read while his wife went to church because

00:35:25.760 he felt that the church was a little too restrictive.

00:35:29.520 Uh, on the other hand, uh, others, uh, and John Adams said every, every, every American will

00:35:37.260 ultimately be buried as a Unitarian and as Unitarians believe in at most one God.

00:35:43.880 Uh, so, uh, you know, we have to have religious freedom.

00:35:48.260 We have to have our own ability from the time we're sentient human beings to think through

00:35:54.180 these issues.

00:35:55.180 Jefferson's letter to his nephew, Peter Carr is one of the great documents.

00:35:59.780 The best changed my life reading that.

00:36:02.160 I have to tell you that should be taught in every school.

00:36:05.640 Yes.

00:36:06.120 Talk about the thing that should be taught in every school is Jefferson's letter.

00:36:09.920 Especially when it comes to religion, horribly paraphrasing.

00:36:13.060 If there is a God question with boldness, even the very existence of God, for if there

00:36:17.080 is a God, he must surely rather honest questioning over blindfolded fear.

00:36:20.920 That one line just changes everything.

00:36:23.680 You are a scholar.

00:36:25.180 And, and, um, I used to teach a course at Harvard law school just on the letters of Thomas

00:36:30.460 Jefferson, you know, Thomas Jefferson never really wrote any books.

00:36:33.740 He wrote a book on Virginia, but it's most alarming and stuff like that.

00:36:38.800 But his letters, his collected letters are almost the most brilliant pieces of American

00:36:44.900 literature, constitutional history.

00:36:47.220 They're better than the Federalist papers.

00:36:49.300 And I didn't think anything could be better than the Federalist papers, but I used to assign

00:36:52.840 my students at Harvard law school to read his letters, his last letter, the one just before

00:36:58.400 he died on the same day that John Adams died, when he was asked to, uh, speak at the commemoration,

00:37:05.340 the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, his letter, declining his ability

00:37:11.360 to speak as he didn't have the physical energy to do it.

00:37:13.900 But his letter was so brilliant.

00:37:16.260 And it talked about how the declaration was intended, not only for America, but to free

00:37:22.040 the world of what he called monkish ignorance, just, uh, just accepting things because people

00:37:29.100 said they would accept them.

00:37:31.000 So we agree.

00:37:32.240 I mean, Thomas Jefferson, and yet look at Thomas Jefferson.

00:37:35.360 He was a sinner.

00:37:37.000 He did terrible things in his own personal life.

00:37:39.800 So did Martin Luther King.

00:37:41.640 That doesn't make him, it makes him wrong in certain areas, but we're all on the road

00:37:47.820 somewhere or another to write.

00:37:50.220 Okay.

00:37:50.600 Well here, let me make a point that you might disagree with.

00:37:53.340 I wrote a book called the Genesis of justice about the Bible.

00:37:56.640 And I say the difference between the Jewish Bible, the old Testament and the Christian Bible 0.88

00:38:01.560 is that the Jewish Bible is filled with flawed characters.

00:38:05.720 Practically everybody in it is screwed up in some way, you know, there's no perfect people.

00:38:12.100 Then you get to the new Testament and there's Jesus who could be a more perfect person than

00:38:17.540 Jesus, everything, right.

00:38:20.660 And so you have these two testaments really having a very different view of the perfect ability

00:38:27.840 of man.

00:38:29.240 No, but you know what?

00:38:30.260 I would disagree.

00:38:31.400 There's only one character like that.

00:38:33.920 The rest of them are, I mean, look at Saul slash Paul.

00:38:37.800 He's so deep.

00:38:38.980 He was killing the people that he suddenly said, I'm going to protect.

00:38:43.200 I mean, deeply flawed.

00:38:45.820 And I think that's, I think that's the beauty of it is none of these people.

00:38:52.520 That's why I think it's so important for Jews to read the new Testament and for Christians

00:38:57.420 to read the old, because we each can learn from each other's point of view.

00:39:05.280 And both Bibles, by the way, engage in prevention.

00:39:09.880 The Old Testament obviously talks in extreme terms about what you deal with, how you deal

00:39:15.080 with the recalcitrant child, stone him to death because he's going to grow up to be a criminal.

00:39:21.760 That's in the ultimate.

00:39:24.760 And, you know, and Jesus saying to the people, he who was without sin cast the first stone.

00:39:31.960 There are so many great lessons to be learned for each religion from the other's religion. 0.92

00:39:37.280 And so I agree that I think I think Christians, I think Christians really miss the Daniel Lappin

00:39:45.140 is a friend of mine, and he's always said to me, everybody needs a rabbi.

00:39:48.360 And I think that's true.

00:39:49.800 You read the Old Testament with a rabbi or somebody who actually knows it in Hebrew, and

00:39:57.560 it's completely different.

00:39:59.580 The depth of it is just never ending.

00:40:02.560 No, I agree with you.

00:40:04.240 And I used to teach courses, non-credit courses at Harvard on the Bible, both the Old Testament

00:40:11.040 and the New Testament, and the Koran.

00:40:13.640 The course was called The Scriptural Sources of Justice.

00:40:17.560 And a lot of what's in my book, The Prevented State, remember, I was a yeshiva boy.

00:40:21.400 I grew up for 12 years studying Bible, Talmud, never eating an Abisko cookie because it didn't 1.00

00:40:28.620 have the magic U that certified that it was kosher.

00:40:31.380 I was, you know, a very law-abiding, strictly Orthodox Jew.

00:40:35.440 So I know I'm not a rabbi, but almost all my uncles are.

00:40:39.520 And, you know, I studied this stuff very carefully.

00:40:43.240 And I don't think I ever taught a class in law at Harvard where I didn't make a reference

00:40:47.500 to the Bible, to rabbinical teaching, to St. Augustine, to, you know, some religious source,

00:40:53.360 because for, of the, you know, 5,000 years of human sensibility, what, at least half of

00:41:01.440 that, most of the intellectual material came from the church or from the synagogue or from

00:41:07.520 the mosque. 0.95

00:41:08.640 So to ignore all that in the name of separation of church and state is ridiculous.

00:41:14.000 So in The Prevented State, I borrow a lot.

00:41:16.480 In fact, the last chapter is explicitly about the religious view of prevention.

00:41:21.660 So if people are interested—

00:41:24.020 So go, go, go there.

00:41:24.900 Go there.

00:41:26.100 One commercial for my book.

00:41:28.040 So this is the best book I've ever written.

00:41:30.280 I've written 58 books.

00:41:31.580 Most important book I've ever written.

00:41:33.600 The New York Times reviewed every one of my books until I defended Donald Trump on the

00:41:37.840 floor of the Senate.

00:41:38.900 Then it cut me off completely.

00:41:40.620 The New York Times will not review this book, has not reviewed any of my books since I defended

00:41:45.080 Donald Trump.

00:41:46.120 I have been banned from speaking at 92nd Street Y, at various other places.

00:41:51.720 And if you want to get even with these sensorial people, go on Amazon and buy my book.

00:41:57.000 I think that's the best way to read the New York Times.

00:41:59.720 We don't care what you review.

00:42:01.760 We care what's on the Glenn Beck.

00:42:03.260 So.

00:42:06.600 Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package.

00:42:11.120 Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages.

00:42:14.420 Conditions apply.

00:42:16.760 Scotiabank.

00:42:17.420 You're richer than you think.

00:42:19.580 I will tell you that you'll have a very hard time getting on the Times list, too.

00:42:24.440 I mean, I was, I think, 4,000 books more than what they put at the number one on one

00:42:33.020 of my books.

00:42:34.020 And I made it to number 14.

00:42:38.200 I just made the list.

00:42:40.200 No, it was seven times before I defended Trump.

00:42:47.120 My book Chutzpah was number one in the whole nation.

00:42:50.940 And my book Case for Israel was on the list for quite some time.

00:42:54.940 But since I defended Trump, I could sell a million copies.

00:42:57.980 They won't put me on the list.

00:42:59.040 It doesn't matter.

00:42:59.420 Of making sure that it's not sufficiently broad or something like that.

00:43:04.620 So we have to fight back against that kind of censorship.

00:43:07.440 Can we go to something that I think is pretty controversial?

00:43:11.880 And that is, you, in your book, you talk about, you know, there might be a case to have people,

00:43:22.960 you know, be forced to take an injection if there is, if there's a, you know, pandemic.

00:43:31.400 I think we've seen this.

00:43:33.400 And it's, it was horrible.

00:43:36.380 It worked out to be horrible.

00:43:38.060 No, look, I agree.

00:43:42.560 It's a tough problem.

00:43:43.560 George Washington wrote to his troops in the middle of the Revolutionary War saying,

00:43:49.220 we're not going to lose this war to Britain, but we may lose it to smallpox.

00:43:52.320 And so every single soldier has to be inoculated.

00:43:55.160 And in those days, by the way, the inoculation was very dangerous.

00:43:58.340 Oh, yeah.

00:43:58.540 All it was, smallpox from some people, some pus, and put it in a needle and inject it into you.

00:44:04.920 And it hoped that you would get only a small case of smallpox, not a big case, but every

00:44:09.160 soldier had to do it.

00:44:10.440 Of course, that's not a paradigm for citizens.

00:44:14.480 Remember, the president is not the commander in chief of the people.

00:44:17.660 He's only the commander in chief of the armed forces.

00:44:20.180 And so I would not be in favor of compelled mandatory inoculation, except if we had a

00:44:27.000 situation where the risks of spread of the disease was so great that it really endangered

00:44:33.140 the future of the country.

00:44:34.960 But the standard would have to be much higher than it was, for example, during the COVID.

00:44:40.340 What is the standard?

00:44:43.240 What is the standard then?

00:44:44.960 I mean, because it, I mean, we were told that millions were going to die.

00:44:48.240 Yeah, it has to be very high.

00:44:51.180 And then the question is, who decides?

00:44:54.540 Is it a legislative decision?

00:44:56.280 Is it an executive decision?

00:44:58.220 Does the Supreme Court get to play a role in it?

00:45:00.800 You know, who decides is the hardest question in democracies.

00:45:04.640 It's a question I pose throughout my book, The Preventive State.

00:45:07.840 You know, when you have this balance of avoiding too many false negatives and avoiding too many

00:45:13.820 false positives, avoiding too many people who are improperly in prison and too few, you've

00:45:19.220 got to make a decision.

00:45:20.340 But who's going to make the decision?

00:45:22.220 Is it something that the legislature makes?

00:45:24.620 And does it make it in broad terms?

00:45:26.580 Is it something the executive authorities make?

00:45:28.980 These are very, very hard decisions.

00:45:31.580 You don't really present the answers in your book.

00:45:34.640 You present.

00:45:35.200 There are no answers.

00:45:35.560 Yeah.

00:45:35.760 The purpose of the book is to open a dialogue.

00:45:39.820 Nobody has ever written a systematic book about the preventive state before.

00:45:45.200 And so I raise all the questions, all the hard questions.

00:45:48.440 And I provide some tentative answers.

00:45:51.180 But they're only tentative because you have to make the decision as to where the ultimate

00:45:57.160 decision gets made.

00:45:58.600 I think ultimately it has to be made by the legislative branch.

00:46:01.880 But, you know, the legislative branch of our government has not proved its ability to make

00:46:07.780 these hard decisions.

00:46:09.260 So, so many of the decision-making authorities have been taken over by the executive.

00:46:14.240 Look at President Trump's first half a year in office.

00:46:17.580 He has taken more power than any president since only two before him really have taken more

00:46:23.680 power.

00:46:24.440 Jefferson, early on when he bought Louisiana and did all those things, and Franklin Roosevelt.

00:46:30.080 Lincoln, but that was wartime.

00:46:32.720 Wilson?

00:46:33.260 But Trump, Clinton didn't do that as much.

00:46:36.200 No, Wilson.

00:46:36.760 Wilson.

00:46:38.060 Wilson.

00:46:38.760 Yeah, no, Wilson did.

00:46:40.040 But of course, that too was wartime.

00:46:42.440 World War.

00:46:43.580 But for a peacetime president, more or less peacetime, President Trump has taken more power than

00:46:49.180 any other president in history.

00:46:53.260 And so far, he's done a, you know, a pretty good job on most of these issues.

00:46:59.380 I have some quarrels with some of his priorities on immigration and some of the priorities on

00:47:06.440 health care.

00:47:07.200 But certainly in terms of energy, no president has been more energetic in his first six months

00:47:12.700 since certainly since Roosevelt than than President Trump, for better or worse.

00:47:17.680 But is it lasting?

00:47:18.860 I mean, the one one of the things conservatives say is until it is codified, until Congress

00:47:25.080 acts, and then he signs it in a bill, everything can be reversed.

00:47:28.940 Of course.

00:47:29.740 And it would be.

00:47:30.540 And look what happened with the Biden when Biden and Obama and Iran.

00:47:37.960 And as soon as Trump came into office, he abrogated it.

00:47:41.360 And the same thing would happen if a Democrat were elected three and a half years from now,

00:47:46.460 we would see a lot of Trump's executive orders, particularly relating to immigration, rescinded.

00:47:53.580 So legislation is much better.

00:47:55.140 But legislation is hard, even when you have both houses controlled by the Republicans and

00:47:59.440 a Republican president, which makes the veto unnecessary, mostly.

00:48:04.580 It's still hard to get legislation passed.

00:48:06.760 So let me change the subject on this Epstein thing just will not go away, will not go away.

00:48:15.640 And, you know, I was told by Cash Patel, I've seen the book.

00:48:20.760 I know the book.

00:48:21.480 I've seen the names.

00:48:22.640 I've seen it.

00:48:23.220 They're hiding it.

00:48:24.580 That was before he was in office.

00:48:26.880 Then when he gets in office.

00:48:29.160 I mean, I was his lawyer and I went to his academic seminar.

00:48:33.560 So, of course, when Ghislaine Maxwell said, Alan, it's his 50th birthday, write something funny.

00:48:38.680 I wrote something funny.

00:48:39.860 I took cover of Vanity Unfair and I called it Vanity Unfair.

00:48:43.980 I don't know whether I did that or not.

00:48:45.800 I don't remember.

00:48:46.520 My wife says I would do something like that.

00:48:48.760 I asked the Wall Street Journal to send me a copy of my letter with my signature to authenticate it.

00:48:53.860 And they refused to.

00:48:54.820 That raised a level of suspicion with me that they refused to send me a letter.

00:48:58.280 So, but I now am to the place to where even if it existed, this thing has gone through so many hands, both the Republicans and the Democrats.

00:49:10.880 And, you know, the one thing I'm certain of, if there was horrible things about any Republican, the last administration would have used it if it looked like Donald Trump was winning.

00:49:21.640 Of course.

00:49:22.700 Oh, of course.

00:49:23.600 Yeah.

00:49:23.780 So, but now we're now we're talking about Maxwell possibly testifying.

00:49:29.760 And I mean, how do you possibly believe anything she's going to say when when she is facing, you know, another 10 years in prison and would, I mean, likely do whatever she has to do to get out of prison.

00:49:43.600 And on top of that, she's now petitioning the Supreme Court because she says she, you know, she was caught up in, you know, in the the release for Jeffrey Epstein that she wouldn't be held accountable for anything.

00:50:00.820 And I don't know if that's I don't know if that's accurate in more than one state.

00:50:05.620 I mean, how do you read this?

00:50:07.160 Well, it's very hard.

00:50:09.360 First of all, you always need to corroborate anything that any buddy who's in prison ever says.

00:50:16.740 That's the basic rule.

00:50:18.600 And I think the Justice Department lives by that rule.

00:50:21.280 So what they're looking for is self-proving evidence.

00:50:23.740 They're not looking for name and name.

00:50:26.140 They're looking for a give a document that proves that this person was on the island or something like that.

00:50:32.340 So they're self-proving evidence.

00:50:34.840 And I think Elaine Maxwell can give them that.

00:50:38.720 I was part of the legal team that got the original deal for Jeffrey Epstein.

00:50:43.240 And it did include a statement that said the United States government will not prosecute any of Epstein's co-conspirators.

00:50:51.260 Now, Elaine Maxwell was certainly a co-conspirator.

00:50:53.860 That's why she's in jail. 1.00

00:50:54.880 And so the Supreme Court, if it grants review, probably won't because generally doesn't.

00:51:00.520 But if it were to grant review, would have to deal with that issue.

00:51:02.960 It's a very tough issue.

00:51:04.060 Look, let me make two points that would be very controversial, and you may disagree with them completely.

00:51:09.260 Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile.

00:51:10.940 That term has a specific meaning.

00:51:13.120 It means people who are sexually attracted to prepubescent girls or boys.

00:51:18.480 That is 11, 12 years old.

00:51:20.680 That's the definition of all psychiatrists and of the law.

00:51:25.840 Epstein was interested in 16-year-olds, 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds.

00:51:30.180 He was a bad person, did terrible, terrible things.

00:51:33.280 The word pedophile is not a correct description of what he was.

00:51:37.360 Number two, he was not a trafficker.

00:51:39.620 Traffickers make money by selling and enslaving girls. 0.95

00:51:43.840 What he did is he was a selfish guy who was having sex with all these sexual contact, at least, with all these 16, 17-year-olds, and maybe, maybe lending them to people like Prince Andrew. 0.96

00:51:56.540 We don't know for sure.

00:51:57.880 But he was not a trafficker in the true sense of the word.

00:52:01.140 That's why there's no client list.

00:52:03.200 There were no clients.

00:52:05.020 And the other point—

00:52:05.840 Because there was no money being exchanged.

00:52:09.020 That's what I mean, yeah.

00:52:10.380 And the other point, he didn't work for the Mossad.

00:52:13.120 I know that because I debriefed him when I was trying to make a deal for him back in 2006-2007.

00:52:21.260 And he would have told me if he had a deal, if he was working for the government, because it would have helped him get a clear, better deal.

00:52:29.700 I will tell you that Business Insider reported this week that four people have gone through every bit of it, and they have come out and said he was clearly not intelligence.

00:52:42.160 The idea that he was in intelligence was not said by the prosecutor in Florida, although it's attributed to him.

00:52:51.780 It wasn't said by him.

00:52:53.240 He said, I never said it.

00:52:54.660 And it looks as though a newspaper took a quote from one anonymous sort that said, he's absolutely intel.

00:53:05.120 He's deep with intel.

00:53:06.360 And that's where that came from.

00:53:07.880 No, I think it came from something else, too.

00:53:12.380 Ghislaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, probably was a source for intel.

00:53:18.500 Yes.

00:53:18.820 But I don't think that Jeffrey Epstein had any contact with Robert Maxwell.

00:53:23.740 The chronology doesn't work.

00:53:25.160 Maxwell died or was killed.

00:53:27.380 Remember, he was on his boat in his family in the Mediterranean.

00:53:30.880 And he may have been an intelligence resource.

00:53:34.060 We don't know.

00:53:34.540 But that's what led people to say, oh, if Maxwell, then maybe through Ghislaine, he must have been, too.

00:53:41.940 If he had been in intelligence and worked for the government, the first thing he would have done is told his lawyers so that his lawyers could have used it to get an even better deal.

00:53:50.020 He was furious at the deal, the Sweetheart deal.

00:53:52.340 He had to serve 18 months and get registered as a sex offender.

00:53:56.380 When I helped him get that deal, he fired me, refused to pay my legal fees and said I was the worst lawyer he ever had because he didn't think that was a particularly good deal.

00:54:05.780 He wanted a better deal.

00:54:06.680 He didn't want to have to register as a sex offender and he didn't want to have to go to jail.

00:54:10.740 But he did.

00:54:12.040 As they are saying, you know, release all the records, which I am for, release everything, open it all up.

00:54:20.660 But I am also I'm also torn and it kind of goes to the theme of your book.

00:54:26.160 We are such an irresponsible people that have just checked out.

00:54:31.400 We don't we don't ask critical questions, no critical thinking.

00:54:34.340 If we see a headline that says so and so on the island, they could be there as a priest, you know, you know, performing an exorcism on a tree or whatever, had nothing to do with anything.

00:54:49.040 We would all say that priest is guilty because we would not look into it.

00:54:53.900 We're too irresponsible, aren't we?

00:54:57.040 Yeah.

00:54:57.620 Let me give you two examples.

00:54:58.900 There's a woman whose name is Sarah Ransom, and she wrote 20 or 30 or 50 emails to The New York Post, a reporter named Maureen Callahan, saying she had videotapes, literally videotapes of Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Richard Branson, all having sex with teenagers. 0.70

00:55:17.280 So if you release that, that sounds terrible.

00:55:19.940 But she then admitted she made up the whole story, that it was no truth to it whatsoever.

00:55:24.600 Or another woman named Maria Farmer, who has blamed everybody. 0.95

00:55:29.860 And it now turns out she's not only a complete liar, but she's a virulent anti-Semite and Holocaust denier. 0.98

00:55:37.860 Her most recent tweet says the Jews weren't killed. 1.00

00:55:41.640 They killed all the Germans. 1.00

00:55:43.640 And this is somebody who CNN puts on. 0.99

00:55:47.200 They've been CNN has put her on three or four times without revealing what a liar she is and what an anti-Semite she is. 1.00

00:55:54.140 And so the people believe her accusations. 0.76

00:55:57.620 And that's the problem.

00:55:59.140 Unless you also reveal the credibility issues of the accusers, it would be unfair just to list the people who were accused without knowing that the accusers are people with long histories of lying.

00:56:12.780 So that's why I'm in favor of everything being released.

00:56:15.460 From day one, I wanted everything released.

00:56:18.100 I've waived all my privacy rights, my legal lawyer client rights.

00:56:21.800 I want everything out there.

00:56:22.940 So the public, even though I agree with you, the public will rush to conclusions, but at least everything will be out there.

00:56:29.120 Right now, we have selective releases, which are unfair to everybody.

00:56:34.360 Alan, always good to talk to you.

00:56:35.300 Thank you so much for everything you've done for the country over the years and for freedom and the Constitution.

00:56:39.680 Appreciate it.

00:56:40.300 God bless.

00:56:40.960 Thank you so much for having me.

00:56:42.220 You bet.

00:56:42.440 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

00:56:55.260 Thank you so much for having me.

00:56:59.620 Thank you.

00:57:12.260 Thank you.

00:57:14.720 Thank you.

00:57:15.540 Dr.

00:57:15.980 Nah.

00:57:16.040 Here you.

00:57:16.660 Thank you.

00:57:17.360 Thank you.

00:57:17.420 Thank you.

00:57:18.060 Thank you.

00:57:18.120 Thank you.

00:57:18.800 Thank you.

00:57:20.500 Thank you.

00:57:21.080 Thank you.

00:57:21.140 Thank you.

00:57:21.720 Thank you.

00:57:21.900 Thank you.

00:57:22.000 Thank you.

00:57:22.260 Thank you.

00:57:23.800 Thank you.

00:57:23.880 Thank you.

00:57:25.320 Thank you.

00:57:25.880 Thank you.

00:57:26.460 Thank you.

00:57:26.980 Thank you.

The Glenn Beck Program - August 02, 2025

Ep 261 ｜ Epstein's Lawyer Makes SHOCKING CLAIM About Client List ｜ Alan Dershowitz ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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