The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 5 ｜ Gene McGuire

00:00:00.000 We are living in a more chaotic and confusing time than ever before.

00:00:05.220 The lines between right and wrong and good and evil, men and women, are so blurred,

00:00:11.420 sometimes I don't even know which way is up.

00:00:16.280 It's not a new concept that things aren't black and white.

00:00:20.060 We know there's always been a gray area, and there'll continue to be gray areas.

00:00:23.380 But we really have to start being more careful when we're claiming to know empirical facts or empirical truths

00:00:31.780 because there's so much information that you'd have to know and sort through to be that confident that you're right.

00:00:41.520 Today's podcast is really interesting.

00:00:44.900 Today, I'm going to introduce you to a man who was convicted of murder that he didn't commit.

00:00:50.800 Now, was he perfect? No.

00:00:54.840 But he didn't commit the crime that he was sentenced to life for.

00:00:59.840 His name is Gene McGuire.

00:01:02.000 He finally got out early.

00:01:04.200 But I have to tell you, he had every reason to be angry and hold a grudge.

00:01:08.920 But something happened to him along the way that changed his life for the better.

00:01:15.620 We talk about the mistakes that were made that nearly ruined Gene's life

00:01:19.680 and the way that he was able to find forgiveness and use his life and story

00:01:25.120 into ways of encouraging others.

00:01:27.840 I don't really know.

00:01:57.820 I don't remember what the occasion was, but I was having dinner with some friends.

00:02:02.220 And one of them said,

00:02:05.440 Oh, you have to meet.

00:02:07.160 Have you met Gene?

00:02:08.060 And I said,

00:02:08.860 No.

00:02:09.280 Oh, you have to meet him.

00:02:11.000 And they told me your story.

00:02:13.300 And I said,

00:02:14.020 Can you call him?

00:02:16.340 Can he come to dinner?

00:02:17.620 And you came to dinner.

00:02:20.500 And your story is one of the, it's the best, horrible, yet unbelievably positive stories I have ever heard.

00:02:33.340 Wow.

00:02:34.080 Tell me, Gene.

00:02:36.500 1977.

00:02:37.900 How old were you?

00:02:38.760 17.

00:02:40.260 Sophomore in high school.

00:02:42.700 Finishing up the year.

00:02:45.080 Pretty good athlete.

00:02:46.480 Football track.

00:02:47.940 Girlfriend?

00:02:49.040 Not at the time.

00:02:51.440 And went out drinking one night with an older cousin.

00:02:56.880 He was 24.

00:02:58.140 And went out the door against my mother's wishes, pretty much.

00:03:02.000 But we sweet talked her.

00:03:03.460 And about 1130 at night, had no business being out that late.

00:03:07.260 Were you, did you know your cousin was kind of a bad guy?

00:03:12.240 Um, dual.

00:03:14.820 He, he had been in prison before.

00:03:16.840 He had been out.

00:03:17.940 And, but one of the things I had great respect for him was because he treated my mother so well.

00:03:23.360 And since my mother went through some hard relationships, my cousin always came to the rescue.

00:03:29.060 So I had a fond respect.

00:03:31.140 I had a great respect for a man who treated my mother well.

00:03:34.100 So he's behind the wheel of the car?

00:03:36.580 Um, a stepbrother, an older stepbrother drove us.

00:03:39.360 Okay.

00:03:39.620 We left, the three of us left the kitchen table, drinking, playing pool, uh, playing cards.

00:03:44.600 Went and shot some pool.

00:03:46.040 My cousin wanted to shoot some pool.

00:03:47.280 So we went to a local tavern and 20 minutes or so into shooting pool, drinking shots.

00:03:53.120 He turns and says, I'm going to rob this place to our surprise.

00:03:58.280 And, um, he was serious.

00:04:00.380 And so.

00:04:00.880 Did you know he was serious?

00:04:01.880 Yeah.

00:04:02.240 I think I, I believe I did.

00:04:03.900 And the idea was, look, we were not going to do it.

00:04:06.760 If you're going to do it, we'll leave.

00:04:07.980 So the plan was to leave the bar in the car, drive down the street, park, let him come

00:04:14.240 back and we'll wait for you.

00:04:16.500 So you were a getaway car.

00:04:18.560 Yeah.

00:04:18.740 And you, so we, we knew he was going to rob the bar.

00:04:21.240 We knew we was, he was going to rob the bar.

00:04:23.100 Okay.

00:04:23.460 And so we, um, he walked back up to the bar.

00:04:26.740 And by that time I got out of the car and I stood in a parking lot somewhat near the,

00:04:31.240 and he didn't come out right away.

00:04:33.320 And we heard some banging.

00:04:35.000 We walked up to the bar and he had murdered the owner.

00:04:37.860 He had stabbed the owner to death using bottles.

00:04:40.800 Oh my gosh.

00:04:41.680 And he just went crazy.

00:04:42.980 So we yelled to him to stop.

00:04:44.420 I did.

00:04:44.840 And my stepbrother and I, we hung around a little bit.

00:04:48.140 He said, come in, help find some money.

00:04:50.160 We walked in and about 10 minutes, he found a box, found about a thousand dollars of cash

00:04:56.940 and took it.

00:04:58.220 And my stepbrother left.

00:04:59.600 Um, he left and went home.

00:05:03.900 I, I left with my cousin, went to New York city.

00:05:07.180 Uh, I knew, I knew I was, I knew I was in trouble.

00:05:09.960 Um, the significance, the weight of it, it didn't hit me until I sobered up.

00:05:15.040 When you, when you saw a dead man.

00:05:20.880 A woman.

00:05:21.640 Dead woman.

00:05:22.500 Yeah.

00:05:23.540 It was a, the owner of the bar.

00:05:25.440 What went through your head?

00:05:28.040 Well, um, intimidated, scared, uh, caught up in that with my cousin.

00:05:34.060 Um, and, and it was dark.

00:05:36.240 It was behind the counter.

00:05:37.900 Any thought of, we have to call the police?

00:05:41.080 No, I was, I was too into it as far as I'm, I'm, I'm following him.

00:05:48.020 I'm part of that.

00:05:49.040 I'm following him.

00:05:50.180 I, I, I love my cousin a lot.

00:05:52.120 I just had a, I had a, I had a respect for him and I had a sub, what?

00:05:57.460 Like, uh, um, as a hero type, sadly, dysfunctionally.

00:06:05.060 Um, how did, how does, I mean, I'm trying to get into your frame of mind here on, um,

00:06:10.760 were you a bad kid?

00:06:12.320 No, I wasn't.

00:06:13.440 Um, I was high school.

00:06:14.900 I wasn't a good student, but I was a good athlete.

00:06:17.260 Um, I was in school all the time.

00:06:19.100 Not something you would, I mean, you wouldn't have thought about beating anybody up or.

00:06:22.500 No, I mean, I had some school fights and stuff like that, but, um.

00:06:26.940 You weren't a juvenile thug.

00:06:29.000 No.

00:06:29.540 Okay.

00:06:30.000 I grew up on a dairy farm and worked on a dairy farm and, and, uh, my cousin came, came for

00:06:35.920 that weekend, uh, from New Jersey and I lived in Northeast Pennsylvania.

00:06:39.880 So he came.

00:06:40.660 And so how much, how much shock were you in?

00:06:47.160 Cause this seems like if this, if I, and maybe I react exactly the same way, um, where I walk

00:06:54.500 in and I'm like, oh, okay, uh, I'm not going to call the police, but, um, I, I, I mean,

00:07:00.540 I think you'd just be in shock.

00:07:01.900 You didn't expect, you didn't.

00:07:03.640 I had no way.

00:07:04.340 You would never think that your cousin would have been.

00:07:06.860 Never.

00:07:07.300 Never.

00:07:07.880 It never crossed my mind that it would have gone this far.

00:07:10.840 When I went to the bar to shoot pool with him, I thought it was cool.

00:07:14.620 It was, it was a timeout, you know, it was like getting outside the house.

00:07:17.960 It was, it was fun and it just snowballed from there.

00:07:20.520 And no inkling beforehand that he wanted to even rob the place.

00:07:23.840 No.

00:07:24.700 Okay.

00:07:24.980 Not at all.

00:07:26.040 So how you, you go to New York city.

00:07:28.860 Go to New York city, walk in the streets.

00:07:30.460 He, he said he had a plan to get, he said he had a plan to get away, do something.

00:07:36.000 And I was just kind of following.

00:07:37.500 I was in a, I was just in a following mode really.

00:07:40.480 Um, uh, if I can, if I can just put you in my mindset, I was just following him and it

00:07:46.880 wasn't, it wasn't good, but that's, that's what choice to make.

00:07:50.200 So walking the streets, he was shooting heroin.

00:07:52.200 He used the money to buy, um, dope.

00:07:55.280 And I found myself in shooting galleries up in Spanish Harlem and looking around and

00:08:00.220 people laying around and, um, what you'd see as a, and, uh, in, in the movies.

00:08:06.080 I was, I was right there.

00:08:07.480 It was just overwhelming.

00:08:09.000 Uh, walking the streets, no, no clue what was going on, sleeping, slept overnight in a

00:08:14.260 hotel.

00:08:14.880 It's 1977.

00:08:16.040 There's no cell phones.

00:08:17.080 There's nothing.

00:08:17.920 It's a different world.

00:08:19.120 Yeah.

00:08:19.260 It's still a, still world of people listening to music on AM radio.

00:08:23.120 Yeah.

00:08:24.040 And, and so, um, the next day, um, notified my, my parents that I was turning myself in

00:08:32.600 and my cousin said, you can run with me or you can turn yourself in.

00:08:37.360 And I, I knew I, I knew I wanted to go home.

00:08:40.300 I knew that wasn't for me.

00:08:41.660 I mean, I, I sobered up.

00:08:43.840 I realized that I was in severe, you know, serious trouble.

00:08:48.000 Uh, not, I had no idea what faced what I was facing, but.

00:08:53.440 But you were willing to face it.

00:08:55.200 Yeah.

00:08:55.640 So I came back and.

00:08:56.820 What'd your mother say?

00:08:58.400 The first thing, the first thing, um, so I took a bus back.

00:09:02.400 They put me on a bus.

00:09:03.240 The police put me on a bus to turn myself in.

00:09:04.760 So you turned yourself up in New York.

00:09:06.360 Yes.

00:09:06.760 In the Port Authority.

00:09:07.640 And they came and they said, are you Eugene McGuire?

00:09:11.120 I said, yeah, you turn yourself in.

00:09:12.300 Yes.

00:09:12.640 They were looking for my cousin.

00:09:13.840 My cousin continued to run.

00:09:15.840 So I get on a bus and.

00:09:17.800 Did you know where he was or where he was going?

00:09:19.500 No, he just took off.

00:09:21.080 And, uh, he, uh, so I'm on a bus and I get back and the police come on a bus with my mother

00:09:27.800 and my mother just, the first thing she said is tell the truth.

00:09:31.820 Eugene, tell the truth.

00:09:33.680 She was distraught.

00:09:34.640 She, she looked, uh, oh my goodness.

00:09:37.640 Uh, her, her face was, uh, distraught and, uh, just lost.

00:09:43.920 Uh, I can still see that in your eyes, the pain.

00:09:47.420 Yeah.

00:09:49.260 So, uh, we get, I was, I was, uh, arrested formally and taken to the, uh, Tunkhannock,

00:09:56.180 Pennsylvania state police barracks and, and gave a statement there.

00:10:01.580 And, uh, for some reason, I, you know, I, I was talking about this the other day, um, to

00:10:06.620 some people, I said, uh, I, I really thought, tell the truth and go home, but that didn't

00:10:12.820 happen.

00:10:14.120 You know, my mother was there.

00:10:15.880 Does your mom think that?

00:10:17.280 Uh, I don't, I don't know.

00:10:18.840 I think she was just in shock, um, um, with every detail that I told of the, of the, what

00:10:25.540 would happen.

00:10:26.380 Um, I think she was further and further.

00:10:28.480 But there were no details you did not know.

00:10:31.740 You, um, didn't even know why you were in the bar.

00:10:35.460 You and your stepbrother did say, okay, we'll meet you after you robbed the place.

00:10:41.180 Yeah.

00:10:42.280 Was there any other detail that incriminated you in any way other than?

00:10:48.800 Uh, knowing, well, the felony homicide, uh, knowing that, uh, there was a felony going

00:10:53.100 on, uh, uh, during a homicide or homicide happened during a felony.

00:10:58.220 And you knew about the felony.

00:10:59.360 I knew about the felony, which was the robbery.

00:11:02.280 Yeah.

00:11:03.640 Okay.

00:11:04.120 So you go in and you tell the truth to the police and they say, stand up, um, you're under

00:11:12.620 arrest for the murder of Isabel Nagy.

00:11:16.600 And it's just like, what went through your mind?

00:11:23.580 Um, I think immediately, um, the weight of it.

00:11:29.300 Um, also the embarrassment.

00:11:31.720 Um, I didn't know the victim, um, in any personal way.

00:11:37.240 I've been to her bar before and drank as a 17 year old.

00:11:41.620 I've been able to go in there.

00:11:43.200 So I just, just superficially just high and by, but, uh, my mother, um, the embarrassment

00:11:50.500 family, uh, and then just trying to comprehend what every step was after they said, stand up,

00:11:58.340 cuff me and start booking, booking me and fingerprint me.

00:12:01.720 Um, just was taken one step at a time and knowing I wasn't going home.

00:12:07.320 And I heard the con, I heard the police talking to state police talking about taking me to

00:12:11.240 the juvenile center detention.

00:12:14.180 Tell me a little bit about her first before we move on.

00:12:16.960 Um, the victim victim, 60 year old, uh, single, uh, woman, no children.

00:12:23.620 And she owned a bar.

00:12:25.720 It was called, uh, the Marine room in at the time, Lake Winola, Pennsylvania.

00:12:31.140 Um, that's, that's about all I know.

00:12:33.420 I know, um, a sister, she had a sister and she has some nephews.

00:12:38.440 Uh, they were, um, jumping ahead.

00:12:41.620 They were in my hearing when I was released.

00:12:43.700 And there's a story behind that too, that I found out when I was released.

00:12:48.180 So, um, it, when you, when you said her name a few minutes ago, your eyes welled up and,

00:12:57.940 um, you, they got very red again.

00:13:01.260 Um, is there a day you, you don't think of her or do you, I mean, what, it's been decades now.

00:13:11.980 Yeah.

00:13:12.440 It's really 41 years not left you.

00:13:15.080 No, absolutely not.

00:13:17.660 Absolutely not.

00:13:20.260 So they book you, they fingerprint you.

00:13:23.240 Then what happens?

00:13:24.700 Um, transport me about a 30 minute ride to juvenile detention.

00:13:30.680 In Louisiana County.

00:13:32.740 Um, never even heard of it and never didn't know where I was going.

00:13:37.800 So just a few days before you're thinking about sports at school.

00:13:43.880 Yeah.

00:13:44.640 Yeah.

00:13:45.100 Working out, um, training.

00:13:47.680 What were you going to do for life?

00:13:50.540 What were you, what, what path did you at that time think you were?

00:13:55.020 There was a couple of things.

00:13:56.080 Uh, I liked welding.

00:13:57.340 I, I took some shops welding, uh, something like that, but I also, uh, had thought about

00:14:03.140 going to Marines.

00:14:04.220 There was a good friend of mine, Rob Mancuso.

00:14:06.440 And we were talking about, um, that in our, throughout our sophomore year about the possibility

00:14:12.340 of going into Marines.

00:14:13.300 So now you're on the bus and what, at that point, what do you think your life is going

00:14:19.180 to be?

00:14:21.020 Um, when you're on the bus and you're being transferred to juvenile, you haven't, what are

00:14:27.280 you thinking?

00:14:28.560 This is going to be bad, but I'm still going to have my life.

00:14:31.980 Um, well, um, yeah, I, I think I meant personally, I think I shut down and just, I was, I just

00:14:39.740 aware of, I was in a car, this trooper car.

00:14:43.200 Oh, okay.

00:14:43.580 So I was just kind of being aware of the moment.

00:14:47.500 I didn't want to think about what I was going to face in juvenile center.

00:14:50.960 Um, I heard my cousin, I heard my cousin talk about stories about prison and, uh, rapes

00:14:57.720 and violence and stabbings and stuff when he was in there, some of the stories he had

00:15:02.060 told me.

00:15:02.620 Um, so I, I had no idea, but I was trying not to think, honestly think about it, but I

00:15:07.740 was just, I remember just looking at the driver, uh, the screen that separated us looking down

00:15:14.260 at the cuffs and the belt I was wearing, uh, just for that moment.

00:15:17.780 And I, I didn't want to, uh, think ahead.

00:15:23.020 You get to the prison or the juvenile dissension detentions about, about 1230 at night.

00:15:28.320 I'd been in the police station for about six, eight hours.

00:15:32.100 And then they took me to the, so knock on the door, metal door, they open it up and of

00:15:38.140 course it's night and there's only the officer inside dressed in plain clothes, big set of

00:15:44.480 keys.

00:15:45.060 Yeah.

00:15:45.460 And I noticed that and he brought us in and, uh, they set me down and then they took

00:15:50.520 the shackles off me, took the cuffs off me and, uh, they shook my hand and they left

00:15:56.500 and he proceeded to process, you know, take me in and process me, a shower, a search, all

00:16:02.720 that.

00:16:03.640 Give me some clothes, put me in a cell.

00:16:05.940 How long were you living there?

00:16:07.700 I spent nine months.

00:16:09.560 And that's during your trial?

00:16:11.180 During, yeah, the hearing.

00:16:12.580 The hearing.

00:16:13.060 Yeah.

00:16:13.280 Um, because there was no trial.

00:16:15.540 There was no trial.

00:16:17.060 Tell me you, you have an attorney.

00:16:21.120 They gave me a public defender.

00:16:22.880 Uh-huh.

00:16:23.380 Because you were poor.

00:16:24.640 Yeah.

00:16:25.060 Yeah, it was.

00:16:25.760 Yeah.

00:16:26.120 Yeah.

00:16:26.280 Um, and what does he say when you're first, are you thinking I'm going to have some hope

00:16:33.380 here when he comes in?

00:16:34.820 Yeah.

00:16:35.240 Yeah.

00:16:35.660 No, I really did.

00:16:36.540 Um, and he was a nice guy.

00:16:38.040 He was a young guy, um, good looking guy.

00:16:40.220 And, uh, um, I remember him sympathizing somewhat with me about drinking.

00:16:46.060 He says, I know what it's like to have some drinks and you get drunk and, and being young

00:16:50.680 and, you know, so, but then we go through the story and all that.

00:16:55.320 And then I think about, um, uh, four, maybe five visits, four or five visits with him over

00:17:02.660 the period of time, within, um, 90 days, he gives me a recommendation to the best to plead

00:17:11.580 guilty.

00:17:12.120 Your best thing is to plead guilty to murder, open charge of murder.

00:17:16.060 It would not rise higher than second degree.

00:17:19.180 Um, but everything else, uh, second, third degree and manslaughter, uh, was be open and

00:17:26.160 that, um, you could be out in 10 years.

00:17:28.320 I couldn't even comprehend two years, but, uh, I still remember the conversation, uh, plead

00:17:36.560 guilty, testify against your cousin and, uh, um, uh, and then let the judge set the degree

00:17:44.440 of guilt.

00:17:58.320 What was juvenile detention like?

00:18:06.740 Was it as bad as what your cousin said?

00:18:09.080 No, uh, no, it was, um, it was only 15 cells, 15 rooms, cells.

00:18:16.300 Um, and most of the inmates were in there were for really petty stuff.

00:18:22.040 Yeah.

00:18:22.120 Okay.

00:18:22.300 So, but I remember when they, when I came in, uh, there was probably, uh, six, eight

00:18:28.040 guys in there and you get up in the morning and, you know, you make your bed and all that

00:18:32.040 and you go eat and come back and there's not a lot to do, you know, a little day room.

00:18:35.780 And someone asked me what I was in there for.

00:18:37.860 And I said, I was in for murder.

00:18:39.860 Well, about an hour later, the staff, they called me in the room and said, uh, um, we're

00:18:45.340 going to lock you up because you told somebody, um, that you were in for murder and we can't

00:18:51.800 let them, these young juveniles or these other people know that we have a person for homicide.

00:18:58.420 So they were like really protective of me letting them know.

00:19:02.880 So, um, I'm locked up for 10 days until they finally said, uh, okay, we'll give you another

00:19:09.420 chance.

00:19:10.260 Don't tell anybody why here you can, you tell them that you're stole bike that, uh, you,

00:19:15.660 whatever.

00:19:16.320 All right.

00:19:17.800 So, um, you go into the, to the hearing.

00:19:21.600 I go to the hearing.

00:19:22.600 And you're going to do what your mother said.

00:19:24.580 I plead guilty, enter a plea of guilt.

00:19:27.500 Your mother in the courtroom?

00:19:28.680 Mother's in the courtroom, sister.

00:19:31.180 What do you remember about that?

00:19:32.920 Um, that particular moment, I don't remember a whole lot.

00:19:37.160 Okay.

00:19:38.100 So you, you have to stand up and you have to say guilty or does your attorney do that?

00:19:43.320 Um, my attorney does it.

00:19:44.580 Okay.

00:19:44.760 And, and that's one of the things that I do remember.

00:19:48.280 It was, I was numb through it and, um, not knowing exactly what to say or do.

00:19:54.600 So he did a lot of the, you know, yeah.

00:19:58.640 Judge says, okay.

00:20:00.120 And then does the sentence come right away?

00:20:02.900 No.

00:20:03.580 Um, some six months go by.

00:20:07.120 And, uh, so I ended, it was three months after my arrest.

00:20:10.720 I entered plea of guilt.

00:20:11.960 Six months later, I go the day before my 18th birthday.

00:20:15.420 And you are, you've testified against your.

00:20:17.640 Testified against my cousin during his here.

00:20:19.420 We had separate hearings.

00:20:20.640 Uh-huh.

00:20:20.880 And done everything that the state has.

00:20:22.600 He played guilty.

00:20:23.260 He, he, yeah, he played guilty.

00:20:24.960 He, he, it was his idea that I had very little deal.

00:20:28.200 The guy had little.

00:20:28.840 So, um, I go in and, um, the, it was March 8th, uh, 1978 and, uh, I'm stood there and, and

00:20:39.700 they read off the, you know, charge again, very embarrassing.

00:20:43.760 I mean, um, painful knowing that a life was taken.

00:20:48.740 Uh, um, I had family there.

00:20:52.040 Yeah, um, I, I, not for me, um, my cousin, I think the most attention was on Bobby.

00:20:58.940 Yeah.

00:20:59.360 Not my, not mine, not that I know of.

00:21:01.560 Yeah.

00:21:02.500 Um, but aware of, you know, the community and all that.

00:21:07.440 Yeah.

00:21:07.680 So I, I plead guilty and then I, I sit down, some more conversation between the DA and all

00:21:15.440 this, you know, I stand up and the judge sends me to life without the possibility of

00:21:20.540 my natural life, still thinking 10 years, which really wasn't the case.

00:21:30.500 When he said life, you, were you, did it set in then or were you thinking, no, that there's

00:21:38.300 going to be a way to get out?

00:21:40.100 No, it didn't set in.

00:21:41.320 I, I thought I'm still on track.

00:21:43.580 I'm going to do what I have to do, uh, whatever it requires to, to come out to.

00:21:48.240 Yeah.

00:21:49.100 When did it hit you?

00:21:51.340 Um, I go to the state correctional institution the next day, 18th birthday, I come into,

00:21:55.860 uh, Camp Hill, Pennsylvania.

00:21:57.800 And I remember walking in and.

00:21:59.560 You're no longer a juvenile.

00:22:00.760 You're in.

00:22:01.300 I'm in.

00:22:01.780 You're in.

00:22:02.260 I'm now.

00:22:02.940 I'm in an adult facility going from 15 cells to 2,600 or so.

00:22:10.320 And how terrified was it?

00:22:11.720 It, it, it, it wasn't gripping terrified, but it's, it's, it's scary and you're intimidated.

00:22:17.600 And so right away I put on, you know, I'm going to put on this facade that I'm a tough

00:22:22.700 guy.

00:22:23.260 I'm not, I'm not scared, you know, I keep my head up.

00:22:26.260 And, and so you go through the process.

00:22:28.600 The early process is, is, is quite easy.

00:22:31.900 You're under watching guard.

00:22:33.180 You're going through medical exams.

00:22:34.760 You're, you're, you're under key a lot of your first 30, 30 days evaluation.

00:22:40.320 So there's your problems come afterwards once you get in the population.

00:22:45.220 But, uh, I remember, uh, meeting some guys right away.

00:22:48.660 They say, Hey young buck, how much time are you doing?

00:22:50.620 And I'm like, um, I'm doing, uh, I'm doing life.

00:22:53.680 Or I know I said, I'm doing 10 years.

00:22:55.540 They say, no, you're not.

00:22:57.020 I said, you're doing life.

00:22:58.040 Like, oh, it's, you could die.

00:22:59.000 I said, no.

00:22:59.540 So you're on the list, lifers list.

00:23:01.160 Then they had a list, uh, of guys doing life.

00:23:04.760 And he said, you're on your, you're dying here like the rest of us, you're not getting

00:23:07.980 out.

00:23:09.140 And, uh, so that comes like, so I started asking questions and I got back on the phone.

00:23:16.200 I went to the law clinic, you know, the prison has a law clinic with volunteers to help out.

00:23:20.800 And I started talking to them and, and they said, uh, you have a life sentence without

00:23:25.660 parole.

00:23:26.560 You'd have to, the only way you could change that is to appeal your case.

00:23:30.340 So you want to call your attorney and ask them to appeal your case.

00:23:34.720 Didn't your attorney say something when he said, you know, it'd be 10 years when he's,

00:23:39.940 when the judge said life, no parole, the attorney knew what that meant.

00:23:44.380 Did he not say, dude, I am really sorry, boy, I miscalculated here.

00:23:49.900 Uh, nothing, no, no, he didn't say anything.

00:23:52.020 Um, there was no, there was never any conversation that, um, other than, um, I remember during,

00:23:58.800 I remember it was, I felt bad about this, but during, right after they sentenced me, he

00:24:03.560 gave a statement and I think it's in my transcripts, but he said, yes, judge, there's a life, there

00:24:09.040 was a life taken.

00:24:10.120 It was a heinous crime.

00:24:11.620 It was staff, but there's a life here that was wasted.

00:24:14.840 And I, and I kind of felt uncomfortable even at 17 that you, you know, um, I saw my life.

00:24:21.600 Yeah, I was going to prison, but I remember him, that was, that was, that was his kind

00:24:25.600 of close.

00:24:26.520 I remember that comment.

00:24:28.480 And you were embarrassed because you're still alive.

00:24:31.360 Yeah.

00:24:31.900 Yeah.

00:24:32.900 So.

00:24:33.840 So you go back to talk to the attorney.

00:24:35.940 Yeah.

00:24:36.200 Um, and within about 15 minutes on the phone, uh, he gives me every reason why not to, he

00:24:41.920 said I could receive first degree.

00:24:44.080 He said, I'll get more time.

00:24:46.660 Um, and with all that conversation going on, totally ignorant, really.

00:24:52.940 Um, I was intimidated and I had 15 minutes, hung up the phone and I walked out that law clinic

00:24:59.420 and went back to my cell and I just said, well, I'll do my time in my mind.

00:25:03.300 I said, I'll do my time, whatever it takes.

00:25:05.060 Also, I heard that there's an other avenue for life sentence inmates in Pennsylvania.

00:25:10.660 It's, uh, through the commutation board, through the governor, uh, the board of pardons, and

00:25:15.420 it's a commutation process.

00:25:17.020 So I set my heart on that.

00:25:18.700 I began to look toward that.

00:25:20.680 That's the only other avenue other than dying.

00:25:23.680 And you're going to be a model prisoner there.

00:25:25.900 Um, I'm going to do what I have to do.

00:25:28.280 Uh, I had, I wanted to get a job.

00:25:30.520 I wanted to get some, uh, a GD.

00:25:32.600 Um, I wanted to get my high school diploma and then also, uh, get some, I wanted, I wanted

00:25:38.220 to talk to somebody, you know, say, try to figure out how a 17 year old, um, ends up

00:25:46.960 doing life without Pearl.

00:25:49.240 So, and, uh, so that was kind of my, that was my, kind of my initial, um, goal setting

00:25:56.140 when I went into prison.

00:25:57.380 You know, when you first told this story to me, and I know this is true, that you have

00:26:16.740 had, um, you know, you've been forgiven and, um, do you?

00:26:24.460 Um, yes, yes, yes.

00:26:26.160 Um, you know, you've been forgiven and, but yet you're this telling with me, I'm seeing

00:26:37.220 deep wounds in you still.

00:26:40.820 Well, it's painful to realize that I'm alive and the only thing I can do is live my life

00:26:50.960 serving others in that place.

00:26:55.860 So you're in, you're, you're now saying, okay, well, I'm, I'm going to hope for something

00:27:00.540 else.

00:27:01.000 How bad does prison become for you?

00:27:03.660 Um, initially, um, the fights, uh, I had a guy walk up to me and blow some kisses at

00:27:09.480 me early on and, uh, it turned into a big fight and, uh, resulted in going to a hole.

00:27:16.700 What's that?

00:27:17.500 Uh, solitary and, uh, kind of dealing with all that and getting out and then being confronted

00:27:24.420 with those guys again and them shaking my hand and saying, you're a cool white boy.

00:27:28.800 You'll never have any problems with us again because I was willing to fight.

00:27:33.560 So after that, um, just a struggle of, uh, being isolated, you know, uh, in the prison

00:27:41.760 system from society, school.

00:27:44.180 It is, uh, the hole.

00:27:46.240 What is, what is isolation?

00:27:47.980 What is solitary confinement like?

00:27:50.940 Um, you left in a locked cell, um, not seeing anybody.

00:27:58.800 But you're locked in a cell 23 hours a day, 24 hours a day.

00:28:03.480 Um, you're out for a shower.

00:28:05.300 You're fed inside the cell.

00:28:08.740 Um.

00:28:09.360 Nobody talks to you.

00:28:10.700 You can yell to other inmates, but you can't really see, you don't see them.

00:28:14.580 You're not face to face.

00:28:15.740 Yeah.

00:28:15.940 Cells are back to back, but you're alone with your thoughts, your thought process.

00:28:19.800 Which has to be.

00:28:21.080 Yeah.

00:28:21.520 Hell.

00:28:22.080 Yeah.

00:28:22.320 And if you don't have a, if you don't have a good, uh, thought process, which I didn't

00:28:27.880 when I first started, it is, it's, it's hellish.

00:28:31.840 It's, it's, it's straining.

00:28:33.760 Did you, did you grow up religious?

00:28:36.120 Um, Catholic school early on, uh, first, you didn't have a.

00:28:41.380 No, first, second, first, second grade, um, went to church, parents divorced and, um, my

00:28:48.220 mother moved us away and church.

00:28:51.820 So for me growing up was church and then in a bar with my folks, my folks and some change

00:28:59.700 and jukebox and shuffleboard and in church and then back to the bar.

00:29:03.440 So, uh, religion, faith, religion, I would say religion and life didn't add up.

00:29:10.800 It didn't, it didn't, it didn't, it wasn't together.

00:29:13.820 When did you, when did you start saying, okay, if there is a God, I need a God right now.

00:29:20.860 I need God.

00:29:22.440 Uh, I was about, I, oh, there was, there was a couple of occasions.

00:29:26.060 Um, when I was 21 years old, I had already dove into some meth in the prison system.

00:29:34.920 In prison.

00:29:35.560 Yeah.

00:29:35.840 You're doing meth.

00:29:36.360 Yeah.

00:29:37.240 So I, I've met up a couple of guys that had drug businesses on the outside.

00:29:41.080 They were doing life like me and some doing, doing a lot of time like me.

00:29:44.880 And they just, they had access to meth, prescription medications.

00:29:49.560 How do you do that?

00:29:50.760 How does that, I mean.

00:29:51.900 You, you get into the prison through visits, uh, and work release or work guys, guys go

00:29:57.980 outside the fence and work and you can bring it in.

00:30:00.620 Uh, there was very little security at the time as far as there weren't, there weren't

00:30:04.900 drug dogs.

00:30:05.820 There weren't urinalysis weekly as there are now.

00:30:09.340 Yeah.

00:30:09.800 It was.

00:30:10.420 Yeah.

00:30:10.940 So 1980.

00:30:11.980 Yeah.

00:30:12.680 So, um, involved in the meth, involved in some Coke.

00:30:16.640 Um, and I remember doing meth one night and I had gotten a letter from a Christian girl

00:30:23.500 and she, it was like, like a 10 page letter from back and it had a lot of scripture in

00:30:29.200 there.

00:30:29.500 And I remember this scripture said, if you, uh, believe in your heart that Jesus died and

00:30:35.840 you confess with your mouth, you'll be saved.

00:30:37.700 And I remember reading it over and over and over and again.

00:30:41.340 And I just remember getting on my knees and I, it was 20, 21.

00:30:45.300 And I just said, God, I'm sorry for participating in a homicide.

00:30:49.080 I'm sorry for, for the pain of Isabel Nagy.

00:30:53.000 And I remember saying her name and everybody just asking her to forgive me, asking God to

00:30:56.940 forgive me.

00:30:58.040 Um, crying, crying, crying, crying.

00:31:00.480 Is this the first time that you, this is the first time that I ever even opened my mouth

00:31:05.520 to say anything to, to, to, to Jesus, to God.

00:31:08.920 I had no clue.

00:31:09.940 I had a Bible.

00:31:10.680 I read it once, once every six months I'd read it.

00:31:15.600 It was a couple of verses I liked.

00:31:17.200 It was poetic poetry.

00:31:19.820 And I remember, uh, it was about three, four in the morning and I was speed.

00:31:25.180 I was, uh, I was, I was wide awake.

00:31:28.540 And I remember looking in the mirror after that incident, I got off, off my knees and I,

00:31:33.420 I, I felt like I got saved.

00:31:34.860 I felt like some weight came off you.

00:31:37.100 Yeah, I really did.

00:31:38.220 Something happened.

00:31:39.260 And I remember looking in the mirror, looking in this little five by seven plastic mirror

00:31:43.380 they give us.

00:31:45.240 And, and my eyes were different.

00:31:48.820 The, the, the, my eyes weren't like little pin dots from speeding from the meth.

00:31:54.100 And I remember, man, I just got saved.

00:31:57.020 So I wrote, I wrote her, I said, Hey, I, I just accepted the Lord.

00:32:01.160 And I said, I feel wonderful.

00:32:03.260 Well, by the morning, my buddies come and we started getting high again.

00:32:07.740 And from that point on, I just, um, never followed the Lord.

00:32:11.740 I never went to church, never heard the word.

00:32:13.240 But for another couple of years, I had a, I had a respect for the Lord.

00:32:17.780 I mean, I, I had a respect when I heard the name Jesus being used.

00:32:22.940 Because of that moment where you felt.

00:32:25.220 I think so.

00:32:25.880 I think God, uh, did something in my heart that day.

00:32:29.100 I wasn't living for him.

00:32:30.780 Um, I was still getting high, but I, uh, I remember seeing a guy with a cross upside down

00:32:37.080 and I, I told him, I said, get to turn it around and I'll rip it off you.

00:32:41.280 I just, I said, it's wrong.

00:32:42.720 I said, don't.

00:32:43.860 And of course, you know, but that was, yeah, that was my attempt to evangelize.

00:32:48.020 As you being a good Christian.

00:32:49.860 I'll rip it off your neck.

00:32:52.160 So, and then, uh, 86, 1986, I was 26.

00:32:56.940 Uh, I had, uh, been asking some of the staff members.

00:33:01.560 I had an, I had a nice job.

00:33:03.020 I was, I was an institutional mail carrier.

00:33:05.620 So I was in the offices exchanging mail and I was going in and these couple of ladies

00:33:13.220 in the medical department, I like going in there, talking to them.

00:33:15.700 It was a real peaceful place.

00:33:16.980 I'd go and sit down and we just talked and I told him, I said, you know, I said, I have

00:33:21.300 a, I have a, I told him I have an alcohol problem.

00:33:23.740 I've been drinking.

00:33:24.460 I've been making my own, which is true, but I didn't tell him I was doing math or putting

00:33:28.900 a needle in my arm and shooting math to that point.

00:33:31.540 So they said, Hey, there's, did you hear about the prison invasion program revival going on

00:33:38.660 this weekend at the church?

00:33:40.880 And I'm like, no.

00:33:41.460 I heard that from my meth dealer.

00:33:44.020 So they say, you need to go, you need to sign up and go.

00:33:46.560 So I signed up and I went on Friday night reluctantly, but I kind of, it was intimidating

00:33:52.940 because church, you know?

00:33:54.600 So, but I went, I'm a recovering alcoholic.

00:33:57.160 I haven't put a needle in my arm, but you don't, there's, there's something about

00:34:03.060 feeling like I don't belong here with these people.

00:34:07.380 Yeah.

00:34:07.840 Yeah.

00:34:08.760 And, um, so I walk in and there's a, there was a hundred men.

00:34:14.160 It was very organized.

00:34:15.160 There was a hundred men from the outside community had come into the prison.

00:34:18.760 They spent all day Friday morning walking around.

00:34:21.020 They had the tethers and the wristbands and they would just share something with you about

00:34:25.400 the gospel and invite you over to the night service.

00:34:28.340 And so that happened for me.

00:34:30.940 Monday, there was a guy walking around saying, Hey, I was an alcoholic and Jesus changed my

00:34:35.240 heart.

00:34:35.900 Hey, I was an alcoholic.

00:34:36.920 Jesus changed my heart.

00:34:37.820 I don't drink no more.

00:34:38.580 And he seemed to follow me around the institution.

00:34:42.300 I was on the block, cell block.

00:34:43.920 He was there.

00:34:44.380 I went to the yard to work out.

00:34:45.620 He was there.

00:34:46.960 And, uh, intentionally.

00:34:48.060 Yeah.

00:34:48.640 Yeah.

00:34:49.000 So he was hunting me down.

00:34:51.180 Yeah.

00:34:52.040 So I went Friday night, I walked into the chapel and there was music going on.

00:34:56.060 The teen challenge testimonies, they had worship and they had a gauntlet of men, uh, in line

00:35:02.320 and they were all shaking your hand, telling you, God loves you.

00:35:05.420 We love you.

00:35:06.320 We're glad you're here about.

00:35:08.420 You go from, um, a world that has gotta be pretty hard, uh, where your Christian act is

00:35:15.540 I'll rip that off your neck.

00:35:16.820 Um, you're shooting up drugs into that world.

00:35:24.840 Did it feel real to you?

00:35:27.460 Did it feel genuine?

00:35:29.140 Cause you could, a jaded person would walk in and go, Oh, you please.

00:35:34.600 Yeah.

00:35:35.020 No, it felt real.

00:35:36.880 Uh, I didn't know anybody there.

00:35:38.860 Uh, I didn't know any inmates that were there.

00:35:41.160 Uh, and it was that type of, you know, I didn't, that wasn't my crew.

00:35:46.980 That wasn't my crowd.

00:35:48.620 And I was really a fish out of water and I went in there, but I, um, men like yourself

00:35:55.000 and like everybody else, they were just shaking my hand and welcome me.

00:35:58.000 So I walked in and I went and found a seat and they, the music continued of saying people

00:36:05.300 worship in, and then they sat down and, and I remember, I remember the pastor got up and

00:36:11.100 all I remember that night, the pastor, he got up and he, he, he said, Jesus died for your

00:36:18.000 sins and rose again.

00:36:19.060 And he loves you or something like that basically.

00:36:20.880 And everybody claps and roars and, and, uh, he said, real men make commitments, real men

00:36:28.280 make commitments.

00:36:29.220 And I sat there and I was like, man, why is he looking right at me?

00:36:34.480 Why is he like, and that's kind of like leaning behind the head.

00:36:38.300 But as he spoke and he shared, um, I felt like, man, he's talking to me.

00:36:45.620 I left that night without making the commitment.

00:36:47.660 Uh, I went back, I struggled that night sleeping, you know, I knew, I knew I wasn't right.

00:36:54.120 Yeah.

00:36:54.640 I wasn't right.

00:36:55.440 And I wasn't where I was supposed to be.

00:36:56.780 I went back Saturday night, uh, again, Saturday morning, men were catching me on the walkway

00:37:03.320 in the yard.

00:37:04.260 Hey, do you know Jesus?

00:37:05.340 No.

00:37:06.740 Saturday I walk in, same thing.

00:37:08.920 Uh, it's a hype in there.

00:37:10.380 There's music, loud music, worship, singing testimonies, teen challenge, guys from teen challenge.

00:37:16.060 These kids were talking about shooting one another drugs.

00:37:19.220 And I'm like, I can relate to some of that and, uh, how Jesus changed your life.

00:37:23.400 And then again, uh, Jesus died, rose again for you, eternal life, real men make commitments

00:37:30.940 and it just, man, I've never made a commitment in life.

00:37:34.500 I, I quit everything, everything, uh, that got tough school.

00:37:38.440 I quit, I went back, uh, some things I finished, some things I didn't, relationships.

00:37:44.200 So I'm sitting there, uh, at the end and I don't make a commitment, but now there's

00:37:49.020 a time of mingling and fellowship music playing and people keep walking up to me and saying,

00:37:54.860 Hey, do you know Jesus?

00:37:55.600 I'm like, no.

00:37:56.780 They're like, have you made a commitment tonight?

00:37:58.100 And I'm like, no.

00:37:58.860 So in a room of about 300 men, uh, I was bouncing my eyes around.

00:38:03.520 So if I saw you looking at me, I would look down.

00:38:06.040 Yeah.

00:38:06.460 Don't come over here and ask me.

00:38:07.600 Right.

00:38:08.220 Right.

00:38:09.280 I, I hear someone behind me.

00:38:11.200 Um, how are you doing tonight?

00:38:12.440 And I turn around and there's this guy from the outside and he says, have you made a commitment?

00:38:17.460 I was like, I can't get away from it.

00:38:20.260 I said, no, but I know some Christians.

00:38:23.300 And he said, okay.

00:38:24.140 He said, wait right here.

00:38:25.200 So he turns like 30 seconds and gives me his card.

00:38:28.900 His name is Larry Titus.

00:38:30.300 He said, Hey, uh, my name is Larry Titus.

00:38:32.260 And, um, if you need anything, give me a call.

00:38:35.240 And I was like, he said, yeah, you need some shoes.

00:38:37.220 You need a Bible.

00:38:38.020 You need some money.

00:38:38.880 Just give me a call.

00:38:40.340 And I'm like, can I ask you a question?

00:38:43.180 He said, yeah.

00:38:43.900 I said, are you a Christian?

00:38:45.280 He said, yeah, I'm a Christian.

00:38:47.240 And he said, and I said, well, how long you've known Jesus?

00:38:49.780 He said, since I was four years old.

00:38:52.180 And I said, you've known Jesus since you were four.

00:38:54.020 He said, yeah, I knew God called me to be a missionary at five.

00:38:56.920 Wow.

00:38:57.200 And I was, I was like, it may, it may be not in condemnation, but I knew I was a big zero.

00:39:06.980 I wasn't where I was supposed to be.

00:39:09.040 And so, um, he left, I left.

00:39:12.180 When you asked him that, was it, uh, when you said, are you a Christian?

00:39:16.760 Was it because here's this stranger who just gave me a card and said, Hey, I'll buy stuff

00:39:20.960 for you if you need it by shoes.

00:39:22.960 Yeah.

00:39:23.440 I, I, I was like, are you, are you a Christian?

00:39:25.740 I, I didn't know what else to say.

00:39:28.020 And he just like, he said, you need a book, you need some shoes, you need some clothes,

00:39:32.700 you know?

00:39:33.300 And, uh, I, I really don't even know where that question came from.

00:39:37.880 So you are feeling like, you know, like, like all of us feel when you meet somebody who's

00:39:44.040 really, you know, seems to be all put together and you're like, what have I done with my life?

00:39:49.100 Right.

00:39:49.900 And I'm thinking this guy and, and the truth is there was the preceding months I had been

00:39:55.400 walking the prison yard, looking up.

00:39:58.260 I still remember, um, looking up in the sky and wondering if, if this is like one of those

00:40:03.460 globes that you shake in the snow.

00:40:05.740 And I said, is there a God?

00:40:07.240 And I would, I would say, is there a real God?

00:40:10.180 Is there someone that really cares about us?

00:40:12.360 Is someone overseeing us?

00:40:14.340 And I just had that, uh, recurring thought whenever I'd walk the prison yard by myself,

00:40:19.120 I'd get by myself and, and, uh.

00:40:21.240 But you were not like reading the scriptures and doing all the stereotypical Christian movie

00:40:26.520 things.

00:40:27.300 No, not at all.

00:40:28.360 Not at all.

00:40:29.020 I was, I was getting high right up pretty much to the time.

00:40:32.560 Um, and, uh, so I, he leaves, I leave and I, I go back and I, I can't sleep.

00:40:38.500 I'm waking up every hour and I'm sitting on the edge of my bed and I'm like, man, I want

00:40:43.060 to be a Christian.

00:40:44.680 I want to be a Christian, but I don't know how, and I don't know if I can in that sense.

00:40:49.500 You know, can I really live the life?

00:40:51.280 Why did you want to be a Christian?

00:40:52.800 Um, do I just.

00:40:54.440 What did that mean to you?

00:40:56.260 Um, a better, a better life is, is the best I can say is I saw a couple of guys, uh, my

00:41:04.720 friend Warner and in my book, uh, we call him big Moses, his nickname, uh, liquid love.

00:41:11.880 This guy was big, uh, general giant, but, um, I, I liked what I saw.

00:41:19.140 Um, Larry in just a few moments of time, um, this loving individual, confident.

00:41:27.080 I, I, I wanted to be, I had some other friends that wrote me and witnessed to me.

00:41:31.400 I remember an old girlfriend from high school wrote me when I was in a juvenile center and

00:41:36.700 she let me know she was a Christian.

00:41:39.520 And, uh, and I remember only dated for short, but, uh, I remember her being a good person.

00:41:46.200 Person.

00:41:47.100 So I remember when I first started going to church, uh, and I was looking for something

00:41:53.200 I'm alcoholic.

00:41:54.040 Like I'm really struggling to stay sober and I, I go to church and there's these people

00:41:59.960 there that, this is why I asked you about if it felt foreign.

00:42:02.780 Cause with me, I hated myself.

00:42:05.100 I mean, I was an alcoholic.

00:42:06.180 I hated myself and I projected that as I hate people.

00:42:10.380 No, I didn't actually hate people.

00:42:11.980 I hated me.

00:42:12.700 Um, and these people who are Christians were also very nice to me and all I could think

00:42:19.880 of, you know, give me 10 minutes and you'll hate me.

00:42:23.320 Um, cause I'm a very hateable person.

00:42:25.640 Um, and, uh, and then after being with the community for a while for about six months,

00:42:34.120 you know, cause they were doing the same thing.

00:42:35.460 Have you made a commitment?

00:42:36.280 I'm like, shut up.

00:42:37.580 And, uh, after a while of being with them, I remember this one guy who I've talked about

00:42:46.560 before.

00:42:47.320 I used to call him the amazing Mr. Plastic Man because I thought he was fake.

00:42:51.700 He was so happy all the time and I could not get my arms around that.

00:42:56.780 And I heard him speak about loving people and really finding the way to love people.

00:43:07.100 Even if you don't know them, even if you don't like them, you still love them.

00:43:11.540 And I mean, everybody in the room was crying and he was crying and I was crying.

00:43:15.840 And I remember thinking, I don't even know what this step really means.

00:43:21.580 And I don't know if I can do it, but I want to be like that.

00:43:27.680 No amount of talking, no amount of missionary work of, Hey, do this.

00:43:33.160 It has to be, I think at least it comes from being that example that somebody who's so

00:43:40.540 desperately troubled just says, I want to be happy like you.

00:43:47.220 Yeah.

00:43:48.140 I remember with Warner, he was my next door neighbor.

00:43:52.060 And, uh, while I was in there smoking and getting high and all that, he was living next

00:43:57.160 door.

00:43:57.420 And I remember we were in there, we were smoking, uh, some hash and, and there's about four

00:44:04.980 or five of us.

00:44:05.540 And I remember we had to, we had the sheet pulled across my bars, you know, and we're

00:44:10.020 in there smoking and we get done and put everything away and pull the sheet across and we step

00:44:16.240 out.

00:44:16.800 And when I stepped out the cell, he was standing there on the other side of the tier looking

00:44:21.820 at me and it was like, my high was gone, powerful.

00:44:27.720 And I, I was like, I was like, I need to be like that.

00:44:32.580 I don't know what I'm doing.

00:44:33.480 He was looking at you like, what are you doing?

00:44:34.820 Yeah.

00:44:35.300 Yeah.

00:44:35.500 Like, what are you doing, Gene?

00:44:36.440 And I, I knew I was wrong.

00:44:39.300 That's all I can say.

00:44:40.160 I knew I was wrong.

00:44:40.880 I wasn't living the life I should be living.

00:44:43.700 And I looked at Warner and I said, that guy right there, that's somebody who looked at.

00:44:47.700 So like, like you, I saw somebody, he was joyful, he had hard times.

00:44:52.860 He would sing, he was joyful.

00:44:54.300 He was, he was down to earth.

00:44:56.120 We worked out, lived weights, played football together.

00:44:58.900 It's not the people.

00:45:00.360 That's why I called him the amazing Mr. Plastic Man for a long time.

00:45:03.320 Cause I saw him as a guy who was perfect, trying to be perfect and everything else.

00:45:09.340 But it took time for me to see, no, no, no.

00:45:12.800 He has struggles.

00:45:13.980 He has pain.

00:45:14.880 And he has difficulties in his life, but somehow or another, it doesn't beat him.

00:45:21.680 You know?

00:45:22.420 It doesn't define him.

00:45:23.320 Yeah.

00:45:23.480 It's not who he is.

00:45:26.160 So you make the commitment?

00:45:29.900 Not that night, Sunday morning.

00:45:32.100 In short, I go back Sunday morning, last service.

00:45:35.040 You feel it coming though.

00:45:35.960 Oh yeah.

00:45:37.020 There was, I was, I felt like a rubber band, you know, stretched and, and I sat the last pew.

00:45:41.960 The only thing left was the door.

00:45:44.740 Not really.

00:45:45.120 I remember I can, I can leave.

00:45:47.000 The officers want to go back to the housing unit, you know, but he, he's preaching and he's,

00:45:52.180 Jesus died, rose again, the gospel stories.

00:45:54.680 And, and, um, he's saying real men make commitments.

00:45:58.820 And I was like, my stomach churning, my hands sweating.

00:46:02.060 And there's nothing like that feeling when you know you're being told to do something

00:46:09.080 and you just know it.

00:46:11.460 You just know it.

00:46:12.780 I knew that I needed to get up.

00:46:15.260 And so he had the altar call, you know, and, and I remember, um, I sat there and I wanted

00:46:21.180 to get up.

00:46:21.620 I couldn't move my, my, my body wouldn't move.

00:46:24.400 And then these guys came over to me and they said, Hey, uh, you look like you want to accept

00:46:28.160 the Lord.

00:46:28.600 And I couldn't even open my mouth and say yes or no.

00:46:31.160 I just like kind of looking straight ahead.

00:46:33.580 Um, and they, and then when I heard him say, you want to accept the Lord or something like

00:46:37.160 that, I remember leaning forward and got up and I went up front and these guys followed

00:46:42.960 me and we, I just got on my knees and, and, uh, we prayed Jesus come into my life, set

00:46:48.920 me free, forgive me for my sins.

00:46:50.720 I want to live for you.

00:46:51.940 And when I stood up, I literally felt like chains, uh, this weight, this heavy weight came

00:46:57.100 off me.

00:46:57.400 I felt like I can literally live.

00:46:59.800 I can like breathe.

00:47:01.520 Uh, I had been into powerlifting weights and, and I knew it was to put hundreds of pounds

00:47:05.900 on my back and squat and it takes your breath away until you get racket.

00:47:10.840 And you're like, and that's what I felt like it was off.

00:47:13.500 And that's why I literally, I felt this weight come off me.

00:47:16.360 And, uh, I didn't know what I was saying, but I kept saying, hallelujah.

00:47:20.720 Uh, as I left the chapel and I went back, hallelujah to my friends and started reading

00:47:27.540 the Bible, immediately started reading the Bible.

00:47:29.340 People who don't, um, I, I, I hate to say it this way cause it sounds horrible, but I feel

00:47:40.580 bad for the people who think they don't really need it.

00:47:45.640 You know, I mean, far as, you know, I know people who are Christians, but they've never

00:47:49.860 really had, you know, they've never done the things that, you know, like you have done

00:47:56.900 or many of us have done.

00:47:58.040 And when you get to that place where you are desperate, you, you, there is no other way,

00:48:07.700 you know, I'm, I am going to live in a very dark place.

00:48:12.720 If, if I don't do this, it's darkness or death for the rest of my life and you need it.

00:48:18.840 And when you have that release, there is no other way to describe it other than miraculous

00:48:28.040 because it's, your problems are still there, but it's, it's like, I don't know how to describe

00:48:34.820 it.

00:48:35.080 It just, it physically changes you.

00:48:40.160 I, I always, now today, I understand it was just for me to help describe it as God gives

00:48:45.340 you the power to overcome those things, walk through them.

00:48:49.400 You know, it's like he gives you grace to walk through them and not around it, but go

00:48:52.620 through it.

00:48:53.200 You gotta go right through it.

00:48:53.940 You gotta go through it.

00:48:54.840 There's no bridges in the Bible.

00:48:56.560 So you're not going to do any of that work.

00:48:58.540 Yeah.

00:48:58.860 And so he gives you grace.

00:49:00.320 And I've realized that I had, uh, he gave me a portion of grace.

00:49:04.520 What does that mean?

00:49:05.220 Um, he gave me, he gave me power through the Holy spirit that now dwelt in me through Christ.

00:49:10.600 And when I accepted Christ, I accepted, uh, I accepted the Godhead.

00:49:15.880 I accepted the Lord God almighty in my life and he's living in me and I'm walking and I'm

00:49:21.280 alive.

00:49:21.920 I was dead.

00:49:22.920 Yeah.

00:49:23.540 My understanding, I was dead in sins and trespasses and now I'm made alive in Christ.

00:49:28.240 So I go back and I was reading the Bible.

00:49:30.300 I'm reading a Bible.

00:49:31.040 I'm looking at my walls.

00:49:32.760 I'm reading the Bible.

00:49:33.840 I'm looking up and, and I had pornography on my walls.

00:49:37.120 I had like some pictures, centerfolds.

00:49:38.660 And I remember getting up, tearing them down, flushing them and reading some more.

00:49:43.020 And then I said, I have another picture of a girl sent me a picture of, of her and some

00:49:47.720 lingerie lingerie.

00:49:49.060 So I get through my photo album, I get that, I rip it up and I just had this overwhelming

00:49:53.720 sense that I want to be clean.

00:49:55.480 Yeah.

00:49:56.300 Um, it got rid of anything.

00:49:58.640 I had, I had some drugs, got rid of that.

00:50:01.240 Um, it's just, it's just, I just wanted to be clean and, and I just felt this peace.

00:50:06.400 And the other thing was that I started apologizing, immediately started apologizing to people around

00:50:12.300 the cell block for the next two days.

00:50:14.740 I would, I would pray and say, Lord, I'm sorry for hurting Danny.

00:50:19.180 And he said, yeah, but I'm not Danny.

00:50:20.660 Go talk to Danny.

00:50:22.100 I was like, oh, so I'd get up the cell.

00:50:24.940 And, you know, as much as, as, as much as I prayed about that individual that I had hurt,

00:50:29.220 cussed out, bullied, whatever it was, no matter how much I prayed for, God said, go apologize

00:50:35.440 to him.

00:50:36.040 You reconcile back to what we were talking about.

00:50:38.060 Part of that reconciling God, teach me, that's what I did with you.

00:50:42.040 I extended my life towards you and you responded.

00:50:46.160 They'll respond if you humble yourself.

00:50:48.420 So that was a, uh, uh, a couple of day process of doing nothing, but going and, and going to

00:50:55.160 cell to cell.

00:50:55.680 There's nothing better.

00:50:56.820 It was hard.

00:50:58.160 It was very hard, but there's nothing better.

00:51:00.640 It was very hard because, uh, I remember as a kid, I stayed out one night pretty late

00:51:05.520 and I got home and my mother was real mad and she tried to hit me, uh, smack me around

00:51:10.380 and I grabbed her arms.

00:51:11.560 I said, I'm too, I'm too strong, too big for you to hit me.

00:51:14.400 You won't hit me.

00:51:15.120 Well, that ended it.

00:51:16.420 She walked out next morning.

00:51:18.200 I tried to apologize and she yelled at me.

00:51:21.440 And, uh, so, I mean, whatever the case was, I remember apologizing.

00:51:26.400 I felt bad.

00:51:27.220 I felt bad.

00:51:27.900 I grabbed my mom's arms and said, you're not going to hit me.

00:51:30.720 You know, no son should do that, but I did it.

00:51:33.760 And, um, when I apologized, she kind of blew up on me yelling.

00:51:37.760 And so you were not, you were trained.

00:51:39.240 Apology is maybe.

00:51:40.680 Yeah.

00:51:40.800 I was afraid to apologize.

00:51:41.920 I was like, I'm going to get rejected.

00:51:42.940 So God showed me and said, no, you're going to, you're going to go and apologize to all

00:51:47.760 these people.

00:51:48.300 So I remember that being a great, great lesson in my life.

00:51:50.640 Sometimes when you apologize, though, you, you don't get, you don't, and it's not about,

00:51:58.280 that's not what the apology is for.

00:52:00.480 Right.

00:52:00.620 And you don't, and you're not entitled.

00:52:03.320 Right.

00:52:04.120 To, to a good response.

00:52:06.020 Right.

00:52:06.780 Which.

00:52:07.500 Your pact is between you and God.

00:52:09.400 Yeah.

00:52:09.740 You have to do your part and what they do.

00:52:12.420 How they respond is.

00:52:14.260 Yeah.

00:52:14.420 You're 27, 26, 26 at the time year, 86, December, it was December.

00:52:35.060 Ronald Reagan is still in office.

00:52:37.020 Okay.

00:52:37.660 You, um, you went in with Jimmy Carter in office, 77, 77.

00:52:43.640 Yeah.

00:52:44.640 Um, are you watching television?

00:52:48.620 Are you, I mean, how, how disconnected from the outside world are you?

00:52:53.420 Uh, just very, I wasn't a news person.

00:52:56.700 I wasn't, I wasn't involved in it.

00:52:58.260 But I mean, you were watching culturally.

00:53:00.780 Culturally, you get some, you have, you could have a TV, um, just basic channels.

00:53:08.020 And so you.

00:53:08.480 There were only three networks at that time.

00:53:10.260 Yeah.

00:53:10.660 Yeah.

00:53:10.840 And so you're not, you're not ignorant of what's going on.

00:53:14.120 Yeah.

00:53:14.460 Okay.

00:53:15.080 Um, um, and, uh, you're still hoping that there's going to be some clemency, even though

00:53:22.900 at this point you're not really.

00:53:24.400 Yeah.

00:53:25.000 I had been at seven years, uh, seven years into my sentence.

00:53:28.560 I started kind of looking at the, the, the process of the commutation.

00:53:33.860 And I knew that they, they, they, the, the, the, um, specialists that help you part of

00:53:40.340 the state, uh, DOC, the department of corrections offers you some, uh, help.

00:53:45.080 Um, they want you to do, um, I think they said 10 or 12 years for grieving periods for the

00:53:51.920 victims before you start.

00:53:53.360 So I was kind of looking into it, looking, gearing up.

00:53:56.300 So, um, Larry Titus, who had a church right down the street in Camp Hill, Christ community

00:54:02.800 church.

00:54:03.140 He had, he started coming to visit me.

00:54:04.920 We connected.

00:54:05.420 I wrote him a letter, uh, with the card soon after, and we started visiting every week and

00:54:11.140 I started, uh, discipling with him, but sitting there, um, share whatever he shared at church

00:54:18.040 on Sunday.

00:54:18.940 He, I'd say, let me get your notes.

00:54:20.520 Let me get your sermon notes.

00:54:21.880 Tell me what you taught your church so I can learn it.

00:54:25.060 And then I would teach it to other guys in here.

00:54:27.440 And so when I had, uh, 11 years in the system, I filed a commutation with the board of pardons

00:54:34.000 and I was denied.

00:54:35.540 Um, I had, uh, no, no, I didn't have, I did not have institutional support, uh, from psychologists,

00:54:42.140 from counselors, from the warden.

00:54:44.420 They had not supported me yet.

00:54:46.780 Um, did you deserve it?

00:54:49.320 No.

00:54:49.960 Did I deserve?

00:54:50.880 No.

00:54:51.060 Did you deserve the, the, the, the, you know, your first seven years, you're.

00:54:55.220 I, I messed.

00:54:56.220 I, and, you know, and, and every, a lot of stuff I never got caught.

00:55:00.460 So it's, they didn't have records of any of the drugs.

00:55:03.020 They didn't have records of any of my, my struggles.

00:55:05.880 Yeah.

00:55:06.220 Yeah.

00:55:06.900 But, um, no, I didn't deserve it.

00:55:08.920 Never, never did.

00:55:10.300 Um, I filed and I was denied and I, and, and I just remember reading his verse in the Bible.

00:55:16.780 It says, give thanks in all circumstances for this is the willy God in Christ concerning

00:55:20.400 you.

00:55:21.120 So I went back and I, God, this hurts, but I'm going to say thank you.

00:55:25.840 And, and I started, I love, I love those moments because when you look back on it, you're like,

00:55:33.080 uh, you know, it actually did work out to me really good, but man, it hurt to say thank

00:55:37.480 you.

00:55:37.840 Yeah.

00:55:38.180 Because I, I, though I, I knew nobody owed me anything.

00:55:42.460 Yeah.

00:55:42.680 I still wanted to go home.

00:55:44.920 I still wanted in.

00:55:46.280 So then I waited in another year, filed at 12 years and I got denied again.

00:55:51.060 Um, uh, gaining some support.

00:55:53.640 I had been in touch with the courts.

00:55:55.900 I had been in touch with the DA who prosecuted the case, James Davis, who wrote a letter on

00:56:01.800 my behalf to the governor saying, Gene should be released.

00:56:05.060 Um, he's accomplished GED.

00:56:06.940 He has a vocation.

00:56:08.000 He has some skills, dah, dah, dah.

00:56:10.220 Uh, I'm, I'm supportive of his release.

00:56:12.520 So I had that letter, which was humongous.

00:56:15.380 And when I would go up, they're like, how'd you get a letter like that?

00:56:18.720 I said, I, I, I've been in touch.

00:56:20.560 I've been in touch with my course.

00:56:22.220 I've been in touch with my community.

00:56:23.560 Right.

00:56:24.320 And I got denied.

00:56:25.400 I, same process going back and giving thanks and literally worship in the Lord because it

00:56:30.160 was what I did already.

00:56:31.720 I did it Monday through my, I did it.

00:56:33.940 I worshiped every day.

00:56:34.940 That was, uh, I love the Lord and I love worshiping the Lord.

00:56:37.720 But, uh, teaching other men to do the same.

00:56:40.800 Um, uh, waited again, 17 years along the way.

00:56:45.620 And then along the way, you know, I'm involved in church.

00:56:47.420 I'm involved in law book literacy.

00:56:49.340 I'm involved in programs.

00:56:50.760 I'm involved in raising funds for women's resource centers, uh, become the president of

00:56:55.480 the lifers association chairman.

00:56:57.720 What is the lifers association?

00:56:59.360 Well, just because there's, it's a nonprofit organization within each institution, the 26

00:57:04.980 institutions, uh, everyone has the, uh, has the privilege of being, becoming, um, active

00:57:12.120 in this nonprofit.

00:57:13.280 So the inmates at some time in the seventies, early seventies, they formed a nonprofit.

00:57:18.440 And what it does is it returns back to the community.

00:57:21.980 It does fundraising.

00:57:23.480 Uh, inmates are paid anywhere from 10 cents to 42 cents an hour.

00:57:28.040 Uh, and so they have some money.

00:57:29.700 And so we could, uh, um, work with outside vendors like donuts and hoagies and say, Hey,

00:57:36.800 we'll sell your hoagies in here.

00:57:38.280 And then some of the proceeds, we'll raise it up and give it to, uh, big brothers, big

00:57:44.480 sisters and organization local.

00:57:46.100 So that's the, the, it's a, it's an organization, self-help, giving back community.

00:57:51.460 Um, you, you're now 17 years and, uh, you've got another 20, you don't know this, but you

00:58:00.860 have another 20 ahead of you.

00:58:03.380 Almost.

00:58:04.040 Yeah.

00:58:04.280 Another, right.

00:58:04.960 Yeah.

00:58:05.160 17, 18.

00:58:07.780 Um, well, at what point do you, do you become a pastor in prison?

00:58:12.820 Uh, by not, not by title, but by heart.

00:58:17.460 Okay.

00:58:17.960 Yeah.

00:58:18.600 All right.

00:58:19.160 Yeah.

00:58:19.580 And what does that mean?

00:58:21.720 Um, I I've always, ever since I got saved, uh, I, I think I always had a, um, a shepherd's

00:58:28.440 heart.

00:58:28.820 I was always protective of, uh, the guys.

00:58:32.060 I was always wanting to see others get saved.

00:58:34.920 Uh, I want to see others, uh, learn and how to walk the Christian faith, uh, walk it out

00:58:40.480 and shoe leather, uh, no matter whether you're in prison or not.

00:58:44.420 And so I just had a, um, feeding, feeding my friends with the word of God and the love

00:58:50.360 of God.

00:58:51.260 And, you know, that was just a daily, that was a daily, um, activity that I did.

00:58:57.180 They, um, in every prison movie you've ever seen, you know, so it was like, I'm innocent

00:59:01.520 or I don't deserve to be here.

00:59:02.960 And the line is always, that's what everybody says.

00:59:06.440 Sure.

00:59:07.300 Um, how many people in the prison system do you think are, are there wrongly?

00:59:17.160 Are there, I, I can, I could never even put a finger on the percentage, but I've, I can

00:59:22.420 write on top of my head.

00:59:23.640 I know three guys that were my friends, uh, for a period of time that did not do it and

00:59:29.600 they were exonerated.

00:59:30.600 But they were exonerated.

00:59:32.180 They were totally exonerated.

00:59:33.640 They, they, it wasn't even, yeah, DNA exonerated them.

00:59:37.060 And after seven, one was a lifer after 17 years.

00:59:40.700 And, uh, uh, another was, uh, uh, both homicides and another was, uh, four or five years.

00:59:49.400 So you were at least there.

00:59:50.900 Yeah.

00:59:51.420 Okay.

00:59:51.740 Yes.

00:59:52.200 But these guys weren't, they weren't even there.

00:59:54.960 They weren't even had no knowledge at all.

00:59:56.460 And they were, and what kind of hell is that?

01:00:00.600 I, I remember sitting down with this guy, Bill Kelly, and he kept saying, I didn't do

01:00:05.140 it, Gene.

01:00:05.440 I did not do it.

01:00:06.260 I didn't know.

01:00:06.600 He had some mental, um, he had some mental health issues, very light.

01:00:10.800 I don't know how to explain it, but, but he was like taking lithium and stuff like that.

01:00:14.280 But, um, active, uh, smart kid, all that.

01:00:18.120 But, uh, he said, I didn't do it.

01:00:20.700 So he actually showed me his transcripts and I said, well, let me see.

01:00:25.040 So he's, and in it, the police with his alibi, he said, call, um, Sheriff so-and-so I was

01:00:32.260 playing, um, I was go bullying with him and his wife that night, call him.

01:00:37.340 They called and they faked the phone call in it.

01:00:39.340 They even say it in the transcript.

01:00:40.760 We faked the phone call and we didn't call, but we went back, Bill, God don't like liars.

01:00:44.900 You need to tell us the truth.

01:00:47.140 You need to tell us the truth.

01:00:48.140 Did you kill that lady?

01:00:49.580 And, uh, and after so many hours, he said, I guess, uh, he, what did he say?

01:00:54.840 He said, I was with him.

01:00:55.600 He said, no, you, you weren't.

01:00:56.840 So they actually lied and that came out later.

01:00:59.720 And so that's what exonerated him.

01:01:01.600 Yes.

01:01:01.720 Yeah.

01:01:03.000 And it was just, you know, corrupt police in that sense.

01:01:07.620 But so Bill, um, was released after four years.

01:01:10.640 Um, the other guy with this 17 years for a homicide.

01:01:16.620 How?

01:01:17.880 And then I, I knew a really good friend of mine, uh, who's released today.

01:01:22.260 Um, today he's, he's out today.

01:01:24.240 He served his time.

01:01:25.720 He served 10 years.

01:01:29.540 He had a 10 to 20 for a drug charge.

01:01:31.320 He was selling drugs in Philadelphia, him and his cousin.

01:01:35.000 And he told his cousin, don't sell today.

01:01:37.960 That's a police officer over in that van.

01:01:39.500 And he said, he said, no, no, no.

01:01:41.820 Well, he was selling and he, my friend didn't sell.

01:01:45.620 And they, they grabbed him up and they charged him, not the cousin.

01:01:49.460 Wow.

01:01:50.500 And so.

01:01:51.120 So your, your cousin is in jail at this point.

01:01:53.860 He's in prison.

01:01:54.600 Yes.

01:01:54.960 He deserves it.

01:01:56.160 You've done 10 years.

01:01:58.020 You've done double that.

01:01:59.700 Um, the nineties go by the, what do you remember about the world trade centers coming down?

01:02:06.520 I remember where I was at working.

01:02:08.240 I remember at the desk when the inmates, uh, worked in the, I was a ordering clerk for the

01:02:12.860 institution.

01:02:13.440 I remember the inmates come in and they said the world tower, uh, has fallen, fallen over

01:02:18.040 or something like that.

01:02:18.820 World trade centers fallen over.

01:02:20.180 I didn't even know what the world trade center was.

01:02:22.140 Honestly, I couldn't even, I couldn't, it was 71.

01:02:24.240 71, I couldn't even 77.

01:02:26.280 You're in jail.

01:02:27.000 They were young.

01:02:28.540 So are you?

01:02:29.120 Yeah.

01:02:29.400 I, I, I heard him say a tower in New York city and they said it fell over and we're all

01:02:35.080 like, oh.

01:02:35.620 And then eventually we, we learn as time goes on, we learn what went on and just glued

01:02:40.760 to the, glued to the TV for days.

01:02:43.700 You are, you went in, in 77.

01:02:47.600 This is before the big, huge black phone.

01:02:49.920 You probably don't even remember them.

01:02:51.360 They're big, huge block batteries than with a phone and a cord with it.

01:02:55.920 Yeah.

01:02:56.180 No.

01:02:56.600 Yeah.

01:02:56.820 You don't remember that.

01:02:57.520 Uh, the flip phones.

01:02:59.500 You don't, you don't remember those.

01:03:01.460 Afterwards.

01:03:02.020 Um, technology is growing.

01:03:06.100 Internet starts.

01:03:07.300 No.

01:03:07.820 Yeah.

01:03:08.180 You don't have any.

01:03:09.900 No clue to that.

01:03:11.160 No access to it either in the prison.

01:03:13.460 You're, when you go in, you're two years, I think, um, after disco and Saturday night

01:03:22.420 fever.

01:03:23.180 Yeah.

01:03:23.440 So when you go in, that's what's in style.

01:03:27.700 Bell bottoms and yeah.

01:03:29.780 Yeah.

01:03:30.040 Take me to the year now that you are going to get out.

01:03:34.980 Okay.

01:03:36.540 37 years later.

01:03:38.200 34.

01:03:39.320 34 years.

01:03:40.380 Nine months, 15 days.

01:03:42.380 Wow.

01:03:43.220 Yeah.

01:03:43.380 But who's counting?

01:03:44.100 Yeah.

01:03:44.540 Yeah.

01:03:44.880 I was.

01:03:45.660 No, I wasn't.

01:03:47.060 I was.

01:03:47.480 I had no idea.

01:03:48.160 Yeah.

01:03:48.500 Um, 2012, it was April, April 3rd.

01:03:52.760 Um, and, um, I remember, um, the conversation about cell phones while still in men, men talking

01:03:59.220 about cell phones and doing, doing homework for the kids on the cell phone and internet.

01:04:03.840 And I was like, what?

01:04:04.980 Um, you know, so you having a little taste of that, I, I get out and, um, um, um, I'm released

01:04:13.460 and tell me about first, tell me about the, how you get released.

01:04:16.540 Okay.

01:04:16.760 What happens?

01:04:17.160 Um, they had vacated, uh, through the process, uh, a couple months earlier, the, the DA agreed

01:04:23.400 that I had spent 25 years over any sentence that I should have received.

01:04:26.900 I should have been given a 10 year sentence.

01:04:29.300 Um, why didn't you?

01:04:31.500 Um, because the attorney pled me into an illegal plea agreement, which was proven.

01:04:36.960 He pled me an unconstitutional sentence.

01:04:39.600 And he was doing this.

01:04:41.440 They were not the only person, right?

01:04:43.080 Um, yeah, well, yes.

01:04:45.540 And Sid too, my other, the, the, the stepbrother that was driving.

01:04:49.680 And so they agreed, the DA agreed, um, on all counts and, and then the judge had to agree

01:04:56.480 and the judge agreed.

01:04:57.860 And so I'm in court, I walk into court that day, I'm being resentenced.

01:05:01.680 They, they said, we, are you willing to be resentenced?

01:05:04.220 I'm saying, any sentence you want to give me?

01:05:06.560 And it was sort of like the judge, even though the DA said you, you should be immediately released,

01:05:12.540 it had to be a judge to determine it.

01:05:15.000 The judge could say, yeah, another 10 years or none.

01:05:17.460 And so they said, I said, uh, I kept my plea guilty and that they would give me a sentence.

01:05:24.320 And so I walk into courtroom and I have about 40 or 50 friends, high school, uh, people have

01:05:30.960 relationships over the past 25 years, Christians.

01:05:35.300 Your mother?

01:05:36.040 Uh, no, she had passed away five years before that.

01:05:38.500 Were you allowed to go to her funeral?

01:05:39.640 No.

01:05:39.820 Uh, no, my sister was there, my nephew, niece, brother-in-law, um, some cousins.

01:05:48.340 Um, it was, it was quite a big crowd.

01:05:52.280 And so I go in and, uh, remember the judge saying some things, formalities and back and

01:05:58.620 forth.

01:05:59.640 And then he said, do you have anything to say?

01:06:01.940 And I, and I stood up and apologized.

01:06:04.020 Um, thanked everybody for investing in my life, uh, mainly apologizing, uh, to the victim,

01:06:13.540 the family, the community, high school.

01:06:15.520 So I always thought my sister had to go back to high school for another three years.

01:06:20.440 Oh boy.

01:06:21.240 So, you know, so I apologized, sat down, my heart pounding, you know, and I think, take

01:06:28.240 me back to prison.

01:06:29.040 I have an opportunity to publicly apologize.

01:06:32.660 You know, I mean.

01:06:34.760 That was more important.

01:06:35.700 Yeah.

01:06:36.360 Um, I don't care if they give me 40 years.

01:06:39.000 Uh, um, you know, I'm prepared to go back to the prison.

01:06:41.860 Nothing was promised.

01:06:43.020 Yeah.

01:06:43.180 Uh, nobody told me I was getting out and the judge, um, stand up and said, uh, the defendant

01:06:49.600 G McGuire, having served 34 years, nine months, 15 days has served as maximum sentence and

01:06:55.320 is released affected the state.

01:06:56.940 And the courtroom just exploded with applause and hallelujahs and praise the Lord and clapping.

01:07:02.560 And I remember just crying, like just head down.

01:07:06.300 I was chained, you know, shackled and crying.

01:07:09.280 And, and I look up and thank the judge and the judge walked off the bench.

01:07:13.180 And the sonographer, she's, she's walking away and I'm just saying, thank you.

01:07:17.520 Thank you.

01:07:17.980 And so he never closed the court.

01:07:19.480 So meanwhile, someone yells, unshackle him, releases from his chains.

01:07:23.720 He's a free man, yells across the courtroom, bellowing voice.

01:07:27.080 And, uh, they come over and they're unshackle me.

01:07:30.380 And they're my sister.

01:07:31.700 I hear the sheriff saying, my sister, hold on, Mary, hold on.

01:07:35.020 And she goes, no, I waited 35 years for my brother.

01:07:38.720 I'm not waiting no more.

01:07:39.420 So she's hugging me and they take chains off.

01:07:46.080 We're just celebrating.

01:07:46.920 I mean, oh my goodness.

01:07:47.840 It's just unbelievable.

01:07:49.520 Staying there.

01:07:50.760 And, uh, someone comes up and hands me some clothes and says,

01:07:55.760 Mary, take your brother home.

01:07:59.940 So I go back and change and I reach into his bag and there's some jeans and there's a shirt

01:08:07.680 and some socks and shoes.

01:08:11.900 And, uh, the whole time I'm like, I'm like tripping.

01:08:15.580 I'm like, I'm like, it's surreal.

01:08:18.020 You know, is this really happening?

01:08:19.200 Is someone going to, you know, stop?

01:08:21.060 And so, um, we, um, I change and I reach in, there's a bottle of, uh, cologne,

01:08:29.480 Dulce and Gabbana, light blue men's cologne.

01:08:32.520 And I spray it.

01:08:33.480 I'm like, oh, I'm spraying myself.

01:08:35.900 And the sheriff said, Jean, stop.

01:08:39.540 So I'm standing like the intake outtake.

01:08:42.100 And finally he said, get your stuff.

01:08:44.240 Your family's waiting for you.

01:08:45.360 So walk out, family's waiting, friends, we're celebrating.

01:08:50.460 We're laughing, circled up prayer with the attorney, with the sheriffs, all their people

01:08:56.960 are videotaping things.

01:08:58.240 Someone hands me a cell phone and says, um, the Papsons want to talk to you.

01:09:04.340 So I grabbed the cell phone and I remember looking at it and I put it to my ear, this

01:09:10.080 black box.

01:09:11.980 And I said, I can't hear anything.

01:09:13.440 And I'm surrounded by people.

01:09:14.820 They're videotaping me.

01:09:16.040 And the one, someone had a, now I know it's an iPad, but I thought it was like,

01:09:20.460 an Etch-A-Sketch thing, you know, it was like, I was like, what are you doing?

01:09:23.880 You know?

01:09:24.300 So I put the phone in my ear and I can't hear anything.

01:09:26.460 And I'm like, they turn it, they come up, it was upside down.

01:09:29.980 It was like, so that was the beginning of technology.

01:09:34.640 Um, uh, we left there, went to a restaurant, we ate.

01:09:40.100 I remember getting in my brother's truck and I thought, this is plush.

01:09:43.600 It was like, I've never sat in anything so comfortable in all my life.

01:09:46.840 The last time you were in a car.

01:09:48.560 Yeah.

01:09:48.960 77.

01:09:50.000 Well, I went to a, I went to a couple of doctor trips, but basically it was sheriff's car.

01:09:54.920 Yeah.

01:09:55.200 Yeah.

01:09:55.400 So, so I was, so we, we go eat and we're sitting there, we're eating and there's about

01:10:01.620 20 of us at the restaurant and I'm eating and I'm like, man, this fork is so heavy.

01:10:08.020 I mean, it's really, I'm looking at it, it's heavy.

01:10:10.560 And I'm like, man, and I looked down and I just realized I've been eating, I've been

01:10:14.360 eating with plasticware all these years and not, not metal, silverware.

01:10:18.700 And I looked down, there's a, there's a steak knife.

01:10:22.720 I'm like, I'm like, seriously, I'm like, oh yeah, I don't know if that should be sitting

01:10:27.620 there as a weapon, but they're the things that, you know, you're not, I'm not familiar

01:10:32.820 with, you know?

01:10:34.040 Um, but there was a lot of that, um, my first few years of getting adjusted and getting used

01:10:44.920 to, uh, freedom, getting used to choices.

01:10:48.980 Uh, my choice for food was always made for me.

01:10:52.120 Uh, I went shopping one morning, uh, got an apartment and, uh, I had to go, I had to go

01:10:57.600 get some food.

01:10:58.180 And I remember standing in the aisle and I'm looking down this aisle of cereal.

01:11:04.020 Kroger's, I mean, it was, I was like, so I text a friend of mine in Pennsylvania.

01:11:07.880 I said, took a picture with my little flip phone.

01:11:10.820 Somebody gave me, someone gave some of my nephew, uh, provided it for me for a little

01:11:15.420 bit.

01:11:15.800 And, and I'd said so many choices, you know, and I said, welcome to freedom, you know?

01:11:21.540 Wow.

01:11:22.120 So it was, there was a lot of that, you know, some funny stuff, some embarrassing.

01:11:26.820 Um, but most of it was all good transition.

01:11:30.480 What did you see in the difference of people?

01:11:34.200 Um.

01:11:34.760 Had culture.

01:11:36.360 Was that a culture shock?

01:11:37.900 You know, I, I left Pennsylvania, uh, three weeks later, uh, I was, I spent three weeks

01:11:44.060 with my sister and some friends.

01:11:45.900 It took me shopping and, um, I knew I was coming to Dallas because Larry Titus had relocated

01:11:51.300 ministry to Dallas.

01:11:52.240 And he's the guy who gave you the card.

01:11:54.280 And he's going to get, and he spent 25 years visiting me.

01:11:57.260 Never missed a birthday.

01:11:58.460 Never missed Christmas.

01:11:59.320 Always in the prison, visiting him and his family.

01:12:01.720 And so, um, I come down here, you know, most, most, my, my memory is guys, they get out,

01:12:11.420 they go to halfway houses in the inner city and then they come back.

01:12:16.060 Oh, they didn't give me a chance.

01:12:17.520 Oh, there's drugs everywhere.

01:12:18.580 Oh, it's just, it's a mess.

01:12:19.780 I don't know.

01:12:20.120 You know, um, I get out, I come to Colleyville, Texas.

01:12:25.060 Not really a halfway house kind of place, you know, and then the enormous amount of wealth

01:12:32.880 in Dallas, Fort Worth, uh, opportunity, not just wealth, but opportunity.

01:12:37.900 Um, the most church dairy in the world, I think, um, probably, uh, loving, accepting people.

01:12:45.700 I had no problems.

01:12:47.220 It's not a Jean Valjean yellow ticket of leave.

01:12:49.800 Did you have any of the pushback that I just spent 35 years in prison for murder?

01:12:56.520 No, nothing.

01:12:57.980 I mean, people were very, uh, open, open armed, open handed.

01:13:02.340 What did people, when you tell people that who don't necessarily know you or don't, you

01:13:09.240 know, you're just meeting out of the street and that comes up, does it come up and how

01:13:14.100 do people react?

01:13:16.300 Um, about the being in prison for.

01:13:20.320 Um, I think it's ruined, uh, some possible relationships.

01:13:26.800 How long were you in prison?

01:13:30.000 No, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a good icebreaker.

01:13:34.180 Yeah, I bet.

01:13:34.820 So, so dating.

01:13:36.160 Yeah.

01:13:36.500 My first one that was, it was like that.

01:13:38.460 I, I was out about a month and a half and I met a flight attendant and we were at a place

01:13:45.060 called Bonefish, I think up in Pennsylvania and scenario.

01:13:49.300 And, uh, I was with a friend of mine and kind of a blind date and she came and I came and,

01:13:54.760 and I, she, she says, what do you do?

01:13:56.920 I said, well, I live in Texas and I do roofing.

01:13:59.440 Uh, I started a roofing job and, and she goes, oh, she goes, what'd you do before?

01:14:03.700 I said, oh, I was away.

01:14:06.840 So, Chani, I was going to, you know, and she said, we're like, you know, like an island.

01:14:12.800 Yeah, kind of.

01:14:13.700 I said, I said, no prison.

01:14:15.640 And she goes, oh, for what?

01:14:19.880 And I said, uh, homicide.

01:14:23.240 Oh, like this, like this.

01:14:25.660 Oh, and she had a glass of wine every time.

01:14:28.500 She took a sip of wine, you know, set it down.

01:14:31.860 And, uh, and then I said, and she goes, I suppose you could tell me you didn't do it.

01:14:36.000 I said, I didn't.

01:14:37.680 She goes, I think I need to get outside, get some air.

01:14:39.980 So, so I went, I said, can I join you?

01:14:43.220 She goes, yeah.

01:14:43.700 So I go out and I tell her the story.

01:14:45.880 Yeah.

01:14:46.080 Yeah.

01:14:46.240 Yeah.

01:14:46.540 And, um, I said, you know, I don't have no baggage.

01:14:49.080 I said, I have no history, but I have no baggage.

01:14:51.520 I have no kids.

01:14:52.340 I, you know, I'm not divorced.

01:14:53.420 I have no kids.

01:14:54.260 I said, can I see you again?

01:14:57.020 Well, you do have a little bit of baggage.

01:15:00.680 So she goes, yeah, I'd like you to, uh, so she invited me over and she cooked dinner for

01:15:06.000 me.

01:15:07.720 So that was kind of, but, um.

01:15:09.980 I, no, I think, uh, I think even with, with the homicide painful, but the redemption,

01:15:19.900 the forgiveness factor in there and, uh, um, people, what, what I did notice when I came

01:15:27.560 to Dallas and Dallas text, when I, when I got out period, but I'm here, uh, there's, there's

01:15:33.460 a lot of people who have never been in prison, never been addicted, but yet they're in prison

01:15:37.300 to anger.

01:15:37.900 And I noticed, I noticed like businessmen, uh, they carry a, some, they carry like a,

01:15:43.760 uh, uh, uh, an anger for bad decisions or they got bumped out or someone did something

01:15:50.880 wrong to them.

01:15:51.440 Um, um, um, women are hurt by husbands who divorced them.

01:15:56.520 Um, I, I, I sense that and feel that.

01:15:59.900 And I think when I started sharing my story and I tell them that I was able to forgive,

01:16:05.080 um, and I was able to be forgiven, they, uh, they, they respond to that.

01:16:13.120 And they said, well, if you can do 35 years in prison and not come out angry, why can't

01:16:18.780 I forgive my husband, my wife, uh, my business partner?

01:16:22.740 Uh, why can't I forgive whoever?

01:16:26.220 And I noticed, I noticed that a lot.

01:16:27.960 And that was kind of surprising because in, in the prison, uh, I lived a Christian life.

01:16:33.060 There was a lot of guys that do live the life.

01:16:35.680 They're genuine, they're authentic.

01:16:36.980 And, um, I just thought that's typical of everybody, but it may not be.

01:16:44.740 Yeah.

01:16:45.340 Yeah.

01:16:45.980 I personally think hell is not being able to accept the forgiveness for yourself.

01:16:58.080 You know, you can, you're standing there and, you know, if you've tried and you've,

01:17:04.560 you know, asked for forgiveness for all the things that you have done, that stuff's going

01:17:09.300 to come relatively easy.

01:17:11.220 If you're sincere, it's so hard to forgive yourself.

01:17:16.060 You know, when you said businessman, you know, they've been, I think there's people who have

01:17:21.900 made mistakes in their own life.

01:17:24.640 That's why I was an alcoholic.

01:17:26.600 You make mistakes in your life and then they just start compounding on each other and you

01:17:30.660 just feel like you can't get out.

01:17:32.120 And so many people are walking around and they can forgive others, but they can't forgive

01:17:37.540 themselves.

01:17:40.720 Hmm.

01:17:41.780 Do you agree with that?

01:17:42.620 No, I do.

01:17:44.000 Yeah.

01:17:44.700 I think it's because they don't know the forgiveness of the Lord.

01:17:48.120 And that's the only thing I can, I can relate it to.

01:17:51.780 If you knew that God forgave you, then, then to not forgive yourself is a pride issue.

01:18:00.060 Yeah.

01:18:00.460 It's like, who are you?

01:18:01.640 If he can do it and he knows all of it.

01:18:03.720 Yeah.

01:18:04.500 And I, and I remember that was, that was for me, you know, when, uh, on the cell floor

01:18:08.200 asking, uh, miss Nagy to forgive me, uh, whether she could have understood that or heard

01:18:14.120 it, but I, I did, you know, and I knew I had to do that and, um, and, and then forget

01:18:20.760 up and forgive myself and not live in this guilt ridden, you know, never forget it, never

01:18:29.020 let it go for a moment.

01:18:30.580 But, um, the guilt and the shame, um, I can tell the story.

01:18:36.320 I can share that, uh, even though it's painful.

01:18:38.820 Paul, you now are pastor at a big, uh, restaurant chain, uh, here in Dallas.

01:18:46.660 And I love the people that you work for.

01:18:48.600 Um, the vineyards are just remarkable people.

01:18:51.580 Uh, and I remember, I'll never forget when he first said to me, Paul said, uh, oh, you

01:18:55.940 got to meet our pastor.

01:18:57.060 He was in prison for life for murder.

01:18:59.300 And I was like, oh, okay, sure.

01:19:02.780 Um, uh, uh, but you are one of the, uh, happiest guys I have come across.

01:19:14.200 I mean, you are just a, you know, a happy, happy guy.

01:19:20.080 Who would you be without that night in the bar?

01:19:23.860 If you would have listened to your mother, who do you think you would have been?

01:19:29.780 Would you be the same man you are today?

01:19:31.860 Oh, absolutely not.

01:19:35.240 You know, and it's obviously you can't change the past, but I mean, I've thought about it

01:19:42.180 and I know that, uh, I've probably been dead or I would have been, uh, alcoholic.

01:19:48.960 Um, yeah.

01:19:50.360 And committed suicide.

01:19:51.620 A brother committed suicide.

01:19:53.300 A nephew commits alcohol from alcohol.

01:19:55.920 My father died at 20.

01:19:57.620 Uh, when I was 20, he was 51.

01:19:59.300 Alcohol, cirrhosis of the liver.

01:20:01.040 And it was, it was steeped in my mother too until she got, became a Christian and stopped.

01:20:05.620 And so she lived to be 77.

01:20:07.840 So I think by, by seeing it, I would have entered into, uh, that's my thinking.

01:20:15.040 It's a, for me, it's very possible suicides.

01:20:17.800 My mother committed suicide.

01:20:19.320 My brother committed suicide.

01:20:21.140 Alcohol is like a pack of wild elephants.

01:20:24.060 And you can get to the point where you feel like, uh, that's who I'm supposed to be.

01:20:28.580 I mean, I come from that and that's what's going to happen to me.

01:20:31.560 And that's a big lie.

01:20:32.760 Last, last thought or question.

01:20:50.060 And this is really hard to ask because it sounds weird, but maybe only an alcoholic and somebody like you can understand.

01:21:01.760 Do you thank the Lord in any way for not what happened that night, but for that night?

01:21:11.560 Can you get to a place to where you're thankful that you went through all of that?

01:21:17.440 Yes, I had to.

01:21:20.080 Yeah.

01:21:21.800 Yeah.

01:21:23.180 Because it, and I, I'm not one that will say that God ordains evil because he doesn't, but he's sovereign enough to use it.

01:21:34.080 And it's choices I made, my cousin made, um, he, he worked and there's good, maybe I have to wait to eternity to find out what God has to say about Isabel Nagy suffering in, in, in that murder and the pain.

01:21:54.020 Uh, but God's using that.

01:21:55.900 Yeah.

01:21:56.000 He doesn't cause it.

01:21:57.080 He doesn't punish us like that.

01:21:58.560 He does.

01:21:58.940 That's not him.

01:21:59.800 But he is the best at making lemonade out of the strongest.

01:22:06.000 I like to, I like to say God doesn't waste the moment.

01:22:09.000 He doesn't.

01:22:10.160 And I, I really believe he doesn't waste the failure.

01:22:12.440 No.

01:22:13.140 We, we have to deal with, but God's like, okay, you blew it.

01:22:18.260 Okay.

01:22:19.120 I'm not changing my plan for you.

01:22:21.840 You know, I'm not, I'm not, I don't have to rewrite the script because Jean, you decided to disobey your mother and you decided to join in with a,

01:22:29.780 cousin and you decided to follow a bad character and, you know, you, you made decisions and choices at night that, uh, he, he doesn't, he's not rewriting it.

01:22:40.500 He's, he's able to use it all.

01:22:42.260 What's, what's next in the next half of your life?

01:22:45.440 Um, a second book.

01:22:47.880 I'd love to, um, get busy on that because the people that have read the first book, they're always asking about the second because the first book ends the day I got out.

01:22:55.740 Um, uh, bought a house, um, townhouse out in Fort Worth.

01:23:01.680 Why is there so much emotion behind that?

01:23:03.820 Oh, cause it's, it stands for prayer.

01:23:06.760 It was, it was in, in prison.

01:23:09.660 I remember praying, uh, for a car, a wife and a house and, uh, was able to buy a car.

01:23:16.980 Um, uh, is able to buy a house and still waiting on a wife.

01:23:23.620 You can buy a wife.

01:23:24.580 It's not something you probably would want to do, but I don't think I don't have money for the quality.

01:23:29.800 You get the Russian, you get the big Russian, come over.

01:23:32.460 I don't have that type of money for the quality and, and the talent and the intelligence that I'm looking for.

01:23:38.140 But, uh, are you in a relationship?

01:23:40.220 Are you?

01:23:41.020 No, no, no.

01:23:41.740 How can people get ahold of you if they're like?

01:23:44.560 817.

01:23:48.840 gmcguire.org is my website, gmcguire.org.

01:23:54.400 It's, uh, it's a pleasure to know you and, uh, and thank you for reminding me that everything is good.

01:24:04.560 Yeah.

01:24:05.100 Everything is good.

01:24:05.980 The Lord is good.

01:24:08.140 The Lord is good.

The Glenn Beck Program - October 06, 2018

Ep 5 ｜ Gene McGuire ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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