The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 68 ｜ Billy Graham’s Daughter： Kanye & Deepest Confessions ｜ Ruth Graham ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

00:00:00.000 This podcast, I want to introduce you to somebody who's had a lot of struggle in her life,

00:00:05.100 and she is the least expected to have struggle in her life. She lived in the shadow of a very

00:00:13.060 famous father, a man who led congregations around the world, was the pastor for presidents, I think

00:00:19.940 from maybe Truman on. In one of her books, she wrote, I know what it's like to sit in a pew

00:00:26.520 with a broken heart. She has battled depression, addiction, shame, divorce, bulimia, unwed

00:00:32.960 pregnancy. Her latest book is Forgiving My Father, Forgiving Myself. It's a meditation on forgiveness.

00:00:40.640 In it, she quotes Pastor Greg Ogden, who writes, at the core of every human being is the desire for

00:00:46.100 deep and satisfying relationships because we are all created in the image of God. Our conversation,

00:00:52.740 I think, is proof of those words. She starts out by telling me a secret, one she was afraid to tell

00:00:59.500 me. Ruth Graham, the daughter of Reverend Billy Graham.

00:01:15.500 Hi, Ruth. Hi. How are you, Glenn? I'm well. So good. So good to see you. Yeah, good to see you. Thank

00:01:20.740 you. I love you so much. Thank you. And I love you. Appreciate you. Yeah, you're a good woman. Well,

00:01:25.400 thank you. And brave. As people will find out, if they don't know your story, they will find out.

00:01:32.740 But I want to talk to you first about some things that are, have you paid any attention to Kanye West?

00:01:39.460 I have. As a matter of fact, I was watching last night on the news when he was with Joel Osteen and

00:01:45.980 just fascinated, just fascinated with what's happened. I don't know his story yet. I haven't heard his story,

00:01:51.920 but I am fascinated. There's a couple of things going on that I'm, I'd be interested in hearing

00:01:59.020 from you. Somebody who has led the life that he did. I mean, it's crazy. Crazy. Oh yeah. Crazy. And

00:02:09.000 he's with the Kardashians. So it's still crazy. Yep. But he seems to have had a road to Damascus kind of

00:02:20.420 moment. And I think the dog piling on him, uh, when he said I was a Trump supporter, uh, or not even

00:02:27.780 that, just, I don't have to vote the way everybody thinks. I think that pounded him. And can you truly

00:02:36.220 be, um, truly in God's hands if you haven't been pounded by him?

00:02:45.420 Dr. A.W. Tozer said a man, God can only use a man that he's broken. Can't use a man greatly until

00:02:55.180 he's wounded him deeply, something like that. And I think that's true, Glenn. And I think you and I

00:02:59.500 would both attest to that in our own lives. It was only in brokenness that we felt like God really

00:03:04.640 got ahold of us. And so I'm, we can be grateful for the brokenness.

00:03:09.200 Because we, and, and, and I don't know anything about, uh, about Kanye, but just looking at my

00:03:16.160 life. And I think you could relate to this. You tend to puff yourself up when you're really afraid,

00:03:22.140 you know, like puffer's fish, you puff yourself up and you, you have to tell that story to keep

00:03:29.520 going because you're so wounded inside. But once you, once you let go, that's when God can.

00:03:38.720 That's right. And I think the scripture says, don't judge anything before it's time. Let God

00:03:43.700 judge it. And, and I think that's what we need to do with Kanye is to let him not use him because

00:03:50.780 so often evangelicals love to use a new testimony, you know, and I think we have to be careful.

00:03:55.200 Paul was sent to the desert for three years. So we need to give Kanye his three years,

00:04:01.020 whatever that means.

00:04:02.040 It doesn't even, does it matter? Um, because I've been saying to the audience,

00:04:11.980 this is great to watch. And I think, and I'm not picking him at face value. I think it might be

00:04:16.820 real. That's great. However, he's going to make a mistake because we all do. And it might even be,

00:04:25.180 and I don't think it is, but it might even be fake. I don't think so. I don't think so either, but

00:04:30.640 that shouldn't matter. Don't we get lost when we put our faith in man, his, his message is bringing

00:04:40.420 people together and they're experiencing something, but it's not Kanye that they're experiencing.

00:04:46.560 And he's lifting up the name of Jesus. Right. And that's important. And Jesus said,

00:04:51.180 if they're not against us, they're for us. So I'm going to take Kanye at face value and,

00:04:56.540 and praise the Lord for him. Yeah.

00:04:59.440 His testimony.

00:05:00.560 Are the days, your father told me something, um, the first time we met and I asked him,

00:05:07.740 where's the next you, um, where's the next Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. And he said,

00:05:16.960 I don't think it's going to happen that way this time. Did he tell you that?

00:05:23.660 I'd love to hear your explanation of this. He said that God is just going to use all these little

00:05:30.720 people and each, everybody's going to stand up in their own way. And I mean, this is before the

00:05:37.160 internet really kicked out. And he said, they're all just going to find each other and they're

00:05:41.700 going to start connecting and they'll think to themselves, I'm alone. And how am I supposed

00:05:46.520 to accomplish this? And then they'll connect with somebody else who was trying to accomplish

00:05:50.880 something, but they had the missing piece for this person. And this person had the other missing

00:05:55.680 piece. And he said, it'll come together that way. Everyone will know it's not man. It's God.

00:06:00.240 It is God. And then I, I tend to think that it might be through the arts and Kanye may be a part of it.

00:06:07.160 Look at the passion of the Christ and what it did. You know, it might come through the arts.

00:06:12.480 It's not going to, I don't think it's going to come from stadium preaching like my father,

00:06:16.240 but certainly there's room for that. But I'm interested to see what God's going to do.

00:06:22.740 He's very creative and he'll do what he wants.

00:06:26.580 Your dad stadium preaching really changed the world in many ways. And he was unique.

00:06:36.680 Barry at that. Um, you think that time has passed that is it, is it, uh, let me rephrase it.

00:06:47.940 Millennials, they don't like church. 1.00

00:06:50.680 No, not at all.

00:06:51.980 But I got a news for, I don't like church. I talked to a pastor this weekend. He said,

00:06:56.700 I say to my wife sometimes on Sundays, I don't want to go to church. She's like, you have to.

00:07:01.080 Um, but they don't like church. Um, they don't like the central, they don't like the doctrine

00:07:11.360 that is spewed without the work. They want to make a difference.

00:07:17.120 They do.

00:07:17.780 So I kind of see this millennial generation going down and saying, I don't like church

00:07:26.260 and I tend to understand it and agree with them. And no one seems to be saying, Hey, let's go make

00:07:34.180 a difference. You know, church is a building the way we've been defining it, but that's not what

00:07:41.240 it's supposed to be. No, no, it's, it's, it's people, right? It's people. So are you, are you

00:07:48.140 optimistic about the trends you're seeing with millennials or I have to be optimistic because

00:07:59.400 I know God is at work. Um, I don't necessarily see it, but then I don't have to, you know, God's

00:08:06.000 the one that's in charge. And I really, I trust God to do what he's going to do. I, I

00:08:11.200 read revelation a couple of summers ago to read, to study it. And the only thing I came

00:08:15.960 away with was God has a plan and he's in charge and that's all I need to know. And I think that's

00:08:21.160 really all we need to know. Um, how do you, how do you explain to people the Christian movement

00:08:34.240 that has latched on to somebody like Donald Trump?

00:08:39.000 I don't know that I can answer that Glenn. I think, um, they stand, they like his policies.

00:08:49.900 They don't particularly care for the man and the language he uses and, but we have to remember he

00:08:56.580 is a construction worker from the Bronx. And that's what we got. Yeah. And he's rough. He's

00:09:04.620 very rough, but I like his policies. I like his pro-life policies. I like his Israel policy. Um,

00:09:11.240 I like the way he loves the military and I think he loves this country.

00:09:15.180 I do too. I, I, I agree with his China policy. I have lots of things that I disagree with,

00:09:20.860 but I can separate that. But you know, on this impeachment, um, that's been going on,

00:09:27.420 I've been doing some exposés on, you know, Donald Trump is a hand grenade, you know,

00:09:34.800 and the American people threw him into the oval office and he's going to blow stuff up.

00:09:38.760 And he did with Ukraine. He blew some stuff up and a wall came down. And if you take the time to 1.00

00:09:44.940 look, you're like, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Dust him off. He's okay. What's behind that wall?

00:09:50.880 You know? And I wanted to ask you, is there a difference between, um, being used for good

00:10:01.760 and used, uh, for God or used by God? They can be one in the same, but I think the ultimate good

00:10:14.080 is God. So when we are doing good, we are doing what God would have us do. But we don't necessarily,

00:10:25.540 and I don't mean it this, this way, um, what you've gone through, what I've gone through,

00:10:31.640 I've made some horrible mistakes. I had bad decisions surrounded by sometimes bad people

00:10:37.720 drinking alcoholism, all bad. However, while that was bad, God used it for good. Okay. And that's

00:10:50.820 different than somebody who is, has been called by God, uh, who is doing good works and God is

00:11:01.320 really shaping him. God, I think can use a good person and a wrecking ball. You know, it doesn't

00:11:10.160 matter. He's God. Exactly. Exactly. He's in charge. Right. And I trust him.

00:11:14.640 So let's talk a little bit about your journey. I am, and I want to get to this later. I think I

00:11:26.180 pulled it out here. There's a place in chapter 10. You caught me back to myself. Yeah. My father put

00:11:36.560 ministry before family. God gave him his family first, but he left his, let the pressures of his

00:11:45.040 ministry take over, leaving his family sometimes for six months at a time. I felt as if when I needed

00:11:51.740 him most, he was the farthest away. He once estimated that while we were growing up, he traveled

00:11:57.020 over 50% of the time. And when he was home, he was tired, preoccupied, and surrounded by staff

00:12:02.460 and those who needed him. There were others nearly constantly present with him and our family.

00:12:09.140 Our daughter of a daughter of a former U S president told me once staff ruins intimacy. She was

00:12:14.460 right. Privacy for long, thoughtful conversations or tender moments of intimate connection with my

00:12:19.940 father was rare. And a busy, distracted father cannot spend much time developing a relationship

00:12:26.060 with a quiet middle child.

00:12:31.740 And Glenn, make it, I want to make it very clear. I am not criticizing my father, not in the least.

00:12:36.820 No, I think at one time you might have.

00:12:39.120 Yes, I might have.

00:12:39.640 Yeah, but you're not now.

00:12:40.300 No, I'm not in that place. I adored my father and you know that.

00:12:43.580 Yeah.

00:12:43.820 I just, he was my hero and he still is. I miss him terribly, but it is true that his traveling

00:12:51.120 did have repercussions in our life. And each one of us maybe handled it differently. I handled it the

00:12:58.420 way I handled it, which was very destructive. I was looking for security because I didn't feel

00:13:03.240 secure as a little girl because he wasn't there. And I married early at 18 that ended in divorce

00:13:09.700 after 21 years. So I had a rebound marriage that ended after three months. I married again,

00:13:16.880 a man that I really adored. But after 10 years, he decided he didn't want to be married.

00:13:22.080 And then I married again. And this, Glenn, last time we had the conversation, I shared with you

00:13:27.580 part of my story. But I was too embarrassed to tell you about my fourth marriage. I was so full of

00:13:32.680 shame. It was eating me alive and it's eaten me ever since. And I need to ask you forgiveness for

00:13:37.840 that because I wasn't totally honest with you. I wasn't transparent. And yet we thought I was,

00:13:44.140 you know, I get left with the impression that I was, but I wasn't. And I felt very badly about that.

00:13:49.920 And I thought, oh, Glenn's going to find out I've been married four times. And he'll think I'm a fraud.

00:13:54.420 But I was looking for security. And it wasn't until someone looked at me, a conversation I had with

00:14:02.020 a friend in Nashville. And he looked at me, he said, Ruth, as a little girl, you felt abandoned.

00:14:07.980 I did not want that to be true. Again, because my father was my hero. I adored him.

00:14:14.260 But that piece of the puzzle fit. And since that day on, it was clear that I didn't need a man 0.99

00:14:22.000 to take care of me. I had all I needed in Jesus. But it wasn't until that point and after four marriages.

00:14:28.440 So let's start. Let's start at the beginning.

00:14:32.220 And I'm not married now. And I don't plan to get married again.

00:14:34.220 Yeah, good. Let's, let's, let's, let's come from, let's, let's start at the beginning.

00:14:39.660 Because I've, I've dog-eared a few of the pages. It's a great book of, it's a great spiritual book.

00:14:46.260 It's a great book of common sense and, and healing. And I think, I know, I know we all struggle

00:14:53.320 with the same things, but nobody says them out loud. And so you think you're alone.

00:14:57.620 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and you think, do you really think I would have judged you that way?

00:15:06.360 I didn't know, Glenn. Oh.

00:15:07.660 But I was, I was grieved in my heart that I had done that to you. And I just.

00:15:11.660 I wish you would have reached out because.

00:15:13.340 Well, I wish I had.

00:15:14.260 We would have laughed that off. Um, it's, we sit and we make things worse.

00:15:21.860 Mm-hmm. Because we are.

00:15:24.860 Mm-hmm. 0.94

00:15:27.620 And somehow or another convinced that we're the only ones that are screwed up. 0.86

00:15:32.840 That's right. 0.98

00:15:33.680 When everybody is screwed up. 0.68

00:15:35.780 But I already knew I had screwed up three times. Why couldn't I admit the fourth?

00:15:39.220 You know, to me, that was just over the top.

00:15:41.160 And I just couldn't go there.

00:15:44.180 Okay. So let's, let's start here. You start with, um, a summer in Switzerland.

00:15:48.860 Mm-hmm.

00:15:49.140 And your dad, um, disciplines you for fighting with your brother, right?

00:15:54.560 Mm-hmm.

00:15:55.300 And, uh, and he decides he's going to discipline you, but not your brother.

00:15:59.240 Mm-hmm.

00:15:59.440 That's right.

00:15:59.700 So tell the story.

00:16:00.560 Well, we were all gathered together for family devotions.

00:16:03.760 And my younger brother was, kept poking me.

00:16:06.600 And I would poke him back, you know, as children do.

00:16:11.120 And finally-

00:16:11.760 Well, you don't think of Billy Graham's family.

00:16:14.560 You know what I mean?

00:16:15.900 Which must have been a problem.

00:16:18.480 But, um, so finally my father stepped in and he separated us and he put mother between us.

00:16:23.140 He said, now stop it now.

00:16:24.580 So he proceeded to read the Bible to us.

00:16:28.500 And my brother reached around front of mother and poked, no, reached around her back and poked me.

00:16:33.920 And I reached around front and poked him.

00:16:35.820 Daddy saw me and he got me and he put me over his knee and he spanked me. 0.99

00:16:40.660 And I was mortified because it wasn't just the family.

00:16:43.580 It was other friends that were there.

00:16:46.300 And, um, my father never punished us ever.

00:16:50.220 So I was heartbroken, but he held me close.

00:16:53.060 He wouldn't let me go because I wanted to go to my room.

00:16:55.180 After the spanking.

00:16:55.940 He would, he held me close and he held me close to his heart, which was a good lesson.

00:17:00.920 You know, sometimes we are disciplined and it is hard, but we're being held close to the father's heart.

00:17:06.840 But you didn't, you didn't feel that for a long time.

00:17:09.140 No, not for a long time.

00:17:10.160 Because I would, I would imagine that, I mean, disciplining in front of strangers, even the family, um, embarrassment, you know, humiliation.

00:17:21.960 Uh, and then you not thinking it, it was fair.

00:17:27.100 It wasn't fair.

00:17:28.180 Right.

00:17:28.400 Cause she's your brother, you know, um, did he say anything to you about that?

00:17:34.900 Did he, when he was holding you?

00:17:37.100 No, no, that just that he loved me and just to be still, you know, that, that this was something he had to do, that I was, I was wrong for reaching around and, and hitting him and poking him.

00:17:47.860 But he didn't see that, that my brother had poked me first, but that didn't matter to him, I guess.

00:17:52.820 And obviously it's been 60 some years.

00:17:55.520 So I still remember it.

00:17:56.540 So it really made an impression on me, but you know, that's something you have to, um, it is unfair, but we have to forgive the unfair things in our life.

00:18:04.820 Um, my, I was raised, uh, I mean, you, your chapter forgiveness isn't fair.

00:18:12.660 I was raised, raised life isn't fair.

00:18:15.280 Who promised you that life was fair?

00:18:17.240 And I think people are selling that now that life can be fair, that somebody can make this right.

00:18:27.160 Everybody gets a trophy.

00:18:28.700 Right.

00:18:29.920 Or, or, or even, you know, you had a hard life, so I'll fix that for you.

00:18:36.180 And it's, there's, there's, there's no way to fix, um, you go on.

00:18:45.240 So you, you, you start talking about, you start talking about, um, how it's not fair.

00:18:51.660 And then in, in chapter three, um, you talk about, um, God's heartbeat.

00:18:58.740 And you said, little did I know that, uh, in truth, time buries all wounds that are not dealt with.

00:19:09.300 This is so, I spent so much of my life saying, oh, it's fine.

00:19:17.740 I'm fine.

00:19:19.460 You know, people would say, have you ever really dealt with your mother's suicide?

00:19:22.820 Yeah, I'm fine.

00:19:25.260 How'd you deal with it?

00:19:26.700 I love that phrase.

00:19:27.500 I'm fine.

00:19:28.020 I'm fine.

00:19:28.480 I'm fine.

00:19:29.420 And, and, and, and, well, how did you deal with it?

00:19:31.580 I just got over it.

00:19:32.520 It doesn't bother me.

00:19:33.720 And I really, truly believed that.

00:19:37.580 But when you say it buries all wounds, they, they, uh, so buried, they remain securely tucked

00:19:45.780 away beneath layers of denial and repression until I experienced a life altering trauma.

00:19:52.820 One that shook me to my core and threatened to tear off my well-worn, well-worn mask.

00:19:59.120 Suddenly I found my understanding of forgiveness, wholly inadequate.

00:20:03.780 And I floundered.

00:20:05.520 Big time.

00:20:06.840 Tell me.

00:20:07.760 Well, that was after, um, my husband's infidelity.

00:20:11.560 I'd been married 18 years and he'd been unfaithful for a number of years.

00:20:16.400 And I was not prepared for that.

00:20:18.080 I'd grown up around honorable men and just never occurred to me that, that he would have an

00:20:22.440 affair and not just one affair, but several affairs for years.

00:20:26.920 And I just, the rug was pulled out from under me, just, and I floundered.

00:20:34.420 I didn't, that's when I, I sort of went into depression.

00:20:38.540 I didn't have answers.

00:20:39.760 I felt like I had to keep the mask on to pretend that everything was okay, but I was coming

00:20:44.420 apart of the seams.

00:20:45.840 Depression set in.

00:20:47.300 I didn't know what was going on.

00:20:49.080 What year was this?

00:20:50.060 This was 1993, I think.

00:20:54.040 1993.

00:20:55.160 Or 94, I guess.

00:20:56.540 No, 91.

00:20:58.720 And we, because we were divorced in 91.

00:21:02.200 And those that I expected to stand with me didn't, they didn't understand.

00:21:09.080 And they thought I should remain with him, reconcile at all costs.

00:21:12.840 I was even told to build an extra bedroom on my house and have him live in the house.

00:21:17.160 And I said, that's not honoring to God.

00:21:19.880 I said, God wants us to be honest.

00:21:22.180 So that was a rough time.

00:21:23.580 That was a real rough time.

00:21:25.360 And, but I, I get, it came through it.

00:21:27.820 And I was leaning on the Lord the whole time.

00:21:30.340 Sometimes not well, because then again, I've, I had this rebound marriage because I wanted

00:21:34.460 out.

00:21:35.360 I didn't want, I didn't want stamina.

00:21:37.860 I wanted out.

00:21:38.840 What does that mean?

00:21:39.660 It means I didn't want to go through it.

00:21:41.720 I just wanted to escape this whole mess.

00:21:44.680 But God wouldn't have that, me have, wouldn't let me do that.

00:21:47.480 I had to face it.

00:21:48.380 I had to deal with it.

00:21:49.680 And slowly, but surely I did.

00:21:52.580 But I kept making the same mistake over and over again.

00:21:56.440 It's interesting that, to me at least, that we always say the same thing.

00:22:07.660 Why does this always happen to me?

00:22:10.080 It's like, why am I, I always seem to be in, yeah, it's, it's not them.

00:22:21.600 After so long, it's, you have to realize, wait a minute, everything changes around me.

00:22:27.420 The only thing that hasn't changed is me.

00:22:29.740 And you have to face yourself and you have to face the Lord.

00:22:36.340 And people need to understand how much the Lord loves them totally and completely.

00:22:42.160 There's nothing we can do to out sin his love.

00:22:46.400 And that's a very strong security that we have.

00:22:52.800 He died for us, even while we were sinners.

00:22:55.340 One of my personal disappointments in life

00:23:25.340 is, um, I was doing the Jay Leno show.

00:23:29.780 And right before I went on, Andy Williams called me.

00:23:33.660 And he said, hey, I'm doing a show in Palm Springs, uh, tonight.

00:23:39.700 Why don't you come down after Leno and, uh, come to the show, my guess.

00:23:46.560 And, uh, I didn't because I had to get back home to New York.

00:23:51.540 And he died right after that.

00:23:53.620 And the reason why is, uh, he played a crucial role in my life.

00:24:01.660 And I didn't even understand it until I was 30.

00:24:04.440 My mother, we would listen to the Andy Williams Christmas album.

00:24:08.160 And every time the song, little altar boy would come on, she would stand behind me and she

00:24:14.960 would hold me close to her and she would just hum it.

00:24:20.040 And, uh, I always remember this as a really sweet kind of thing.

00:24:25.280 And, um, and she'd tell me how much she loved me and many times she would be all choked up.

00:24:32.800 And so I always associated that with my mom, but I was a kid and I didn't listen to the words until I was in my thirties.

00:24:45.480 And when I did, I realized she was asking me to be an intercessory for her because she wasn't,

00:24:59.080 she didn't feel worthy to go to God.

00:25:02.220 And I think, I was a burden for her, wasn't it?

00:25:10.540 Yeah.

00:25:11.400 Mm-hmm.

00:25:11.920 Huge burden.

00:25:13.040 And that's why she died.

00:25:15.580 Mm-hmm.

00:25:16.160 You couldn't get past her stuff.

00:25:20.120 Mm-hmm.

00:25:21.100 You know?

00:25:21.500 My mother used to say of suicides that God didn't call them home, but he welcomed them home.

00:25:30.120 Mm-hmm.

00:25:30.740 And I think that's a good way to look at it.

00:25:33.280 You, uh, you don't, until you've been through real depression, people don't understand what that is.

00:25:43.180 Mm-hmm.

00:25:45.660 My, my guy who's like my brother, we grew up together, his father committed suicide.

00:25:50.480 Oh.

00:25:50.720 And his pastor told his mom, and he was a little kid, he remembers it, I mean, as you would.

00:25:57.520 Oh.

00:25:57.780 You know daddy's in hell.

00:25:58.960 Oh dear.

00:25:59.720 Yeah.

00:26:00.160 No.

00:26:00.940 No grace there.

00:26:03.080 No grace there.

00:26:05.860 And God is so much bigger than that.

00:26:11.440 So, you, um, you, um, talk in your book about,

00:26:19.340 um, being wounded.

00:26:23.640 Mm-hmm.

00:26:24.140 Deeply wounded.

00:26:24.860 Mm-hmm.

00:26:27.280 Um, and you talk about how it's all a lie.

00:26:33.960 That those wounds are real, but you don't share them with anybody because it's a lie.

00:26:39.120 You're right.

00:26:40.460 We all have an enemy who tells us that confession is the last thing we want to do.

00:26:45.860 He holds us hostage to the fear of what others will think of us.

00:26:49.600 Mm-hmm.

00:26:50.060 But we break his bondage when we confess our sins to God, to ourselves, and those whom

00:26:55.340 we have hurt.

00:26:56.400 When we expose ourselves, the enemy can no longer dangle that in front of us, the fear

00:27:01.060 of being exposed.

00:27:02.260 Tell me about this realization.

00:27:06.440 Well, I think, um, I remember particularly, and I think I tell the story in the book of

00:27:10.800 a young woman, we were in a prayer group together, and we shared confidences.

00:27:15.320 And I happened to break that confidence with a, um, woman who wasn't in the prayer group.

00:27:21.280 And I felt miserable.

00:27:22.400 I knew exactly what I'd done, and I felt miserable.

00:27:24.960 And I knew I had to ask for forgiveness and confess it to her.

00:27:28.560 And I, that was the last thing I wanted to do.

00:27:30.260 I wanted to run and hide.

00:27:32.060 I didn't, I didn't want to see her, but I had to.

00:27:35.520 And so-

00:27:35.860 Did she know you had-

00:27:36.700 No, she didn't know.

00:27:37.860 So I had to tell her what I had done, and then I had to ask her forgiveness.

00:27:42.160 And she had a sweet spirit, and she said, of course.

00:27:45.220 And she stayed in the prayer group, and I did too, and she continued to share confidences.

00:27:49.400 But I learned a lesson.

00:27:50.780 I learned a lesson that I was afraid that I would wonder, well, what's she going to think

00:27:54.700 of me now?

00:27:55.160 Is she going to take revenge? 1.00

00:27:56.680 You know, all those kind of thoughts that run through your head.

00:27:58.680 But, none of that.

00:28:00.720 She was just very gracious and very sweet to me, and stayed in the prayer group, and

00:28:05.260 shared her confidences again.

00:28:06.560 So she trusted me again.

00:28:08.280 So that's wonderful.

00:28:12.900 Only God can forgive us, but so many speak of forgiveness of self.

00:28:18.620 We all seem to know what it means to struggle to define it practically.

00:28:22.600 I don't like the concept of hell.

00:28:33.220 No, nobody does.

00:28:34.800 Right.

00:28:35.800 And I don't understand how...

00:28:40.280 I just don't understand on some religions where they believe, even if you're a good person

00:28:48.220 and you don't, but you haven't gone to this church, you go to hell. 0.97

00:28:52.860 I just, I find that so hard to believe. 0.59

00:29:01.100 I believe that, and you know, I could get up and find all kinds of different answers,

00:29:09.860 but what helps me is, I believe that hell is wanting to be right next to your dad or your 0.98

00:29:26.860 mom, but you have so much crap that you haven't allowed to forgive yourself or be forgiven of 0.98

00:29:38.780 that you cannot approach. 0.99

00:29:42.280 It's not like God is saying, strong arm.

00:29:46.240 God is always saying, Jesus is always saying, come.

00:29:50.140 Come.

00:29:50.680 Always an open invitation.

00:29:51.640 Always, come to me, forgive.

00:29:54.060 But if we, we can forgive everybody else, but if we can't forgive ourself, we can't come

00:30:00.400 to him because we won't, we won't be able to look him in the eye.

00:30:05.320 Well, and of course, I believe hell is a real place.

00:30:08.660 I believe the Bible teaches that.

00:30:10.820 And I think it's a terrible place and we'll be separated from God for eternity.

00:30:15.920 And I can't imagine anything worse.

00:30:17.160 But we put ourselves through so much by masking, pretending.

00:30:23.620 So I think that we have to take it very seriously, but we can come to God at any time.

00:30:32.880 And it's really all about Jesus.

00:30:35.100 You know, what Jesus died for is my sin and your sin.

00:30:39.820 And while he was being nailed to the cross, he said, Father, forgive them.

00:30:44.260 And that's what makes forgiveness sacred.

00:30:47.700 It is a sacrament.

00:30:50.040 I mean, what Jesus went through, you know, if we can't forgive someone, even ourselves,

00:30:54.920 spend a little time at the foot of the cross.

00:30:57.040 Oh my gosh.

00:30:58.080 It's amazing.

00:30:59.020 It is a truly amazing concept that he would, he didn't defend himself.

00:31:05.660 He took it.

00:31:07.320 He knew what was coming.

00:31:08.800 He did.

00:31:09.200 He set his face towards Jerusalem.

00:31:10.660 Right.

00:31:11.060 And he didn't want to do it.

00:31:14.460 But forgiving them while they're driving nails into him.

00:31:19.020 I, I, I don't ever see Jesus as an angry guy, but I, because my relationship with him,

00:31:27.800 I kind of can see him going, what is wrong?

00:31:30.200 What is wrong with you?

00:31:31.680 That he did all of this and then you could forgive others.

00:31:37.080 But I, I, I, I, no, no, no, that was my job with everybody else.

00:31:43.320 And you did a good, you know, you did a good thing by forgiving them.

00:31:46.900 But my gift to you, you won't accept.

00:31:52.360 So we're saying that the cross is of no effect.

00:31:55.220 Right.

00:31:56.500 That we're not.

00:31:58.140 Yeah.

00:31:58.840 We're everybody else, but, uh, we're not.

00:32:02.880 And that's wrong.

00:32:05.240 Have you, have you noticed how much your book follows?

00:32:08.740 Uh, or I should say, uh, your book is biblical and so was the, what alcoholics call the big

00:32:20.520 book.

00:32:21.220 Mm-hmm.

00:32:21.380 Have you noticed how much you're in line with AA?

00:32:26.940 It, it's, it's remarkable.

00:32:29.780 Um, you know, principles are true.

00:32:34.140 Absolutely.

00:32:34.760 True is true.

00:32:35.500 Truth is true.

00:32:36.340 Right.

00:32:36.700 And it, and if healing, if we believe healing comes from God, he's going to package that as

00:32:42.500 many times as he possibly can.

00:32:44.680 I was really struck by this when, um, you talked about a counselor asked me, um, on except, uh,

00:32:54.580 unexpectedly, if I had subtly used my sexuality to attract men, I said, yes.

00:32:59.600 And for the first time in my life, I admitted it to a real live person.

00:33:05.520 As I left the office, I felt happy.

00:33:09.280 Why?

00:33:10.420 Because it was free.

00:33:11.640 I didn't have to carry that burden anymore.

00:33:13.440 It wasn't a secret anymore.

00:33:17.000 And I was free.

00:33:24.140 Why do you have to do that to a person?

00:33:26.460 I don't think you have to.

00:33:28.160 Uh, for me, it's good.

00:33:29.180 And, and the Bible says, confess your sins to one another that you may be healed and that,

00:33:34.080 that you may be whole.

00:33:35.940 Um, so I, that's good for me.

00:33:38.480 That's my personality.

00:33:39.640 I think you're, but I think you're right.

00:33:41.340 And a, I think the fifth step is you have to, you make a normal moral inventory and then

00:33:46.540 you have to tell it to somebody and you have to pick wisely.

00:33:50.400 Yes, you do.

00:33:51.220 You know, uh, so you're not loading up, you know, an enemy or somebody who's going to give

00:33:55.540 a trusted person, somebody that you can say the worst to that will throw it away.

00:34:00.720 That's right.

00:34:01.160 And it means nothing to them, but you have to actually say the words out loud to a person

00:34:08.400 looking in the, them in the eye.

00:34:10.280 Why do you think that changes us?

00:34:13.660 Why is it not, why is it not enough to confess, to confess to the people that you've hurt?

00:34:21.560 Why is that enough?

00:34:22.600 Why do you think?

00:34:24.720 I think it's good to confess out loud to someone.

00:34:28.260 Uh, I mean, the Catholic church has us hands down in that area, you know, and, and it works,

00:34:33.680 you know, and I once was going to have a conference and we were going to have a confessional booth

00:34:38.120 so that people could go in there and confess because confession is good for the soul.

00:34:42.980 We've heard that before.

00:34:45.100 And I think it's a wonderful tool.

00:34:47.900 It's not the end all be all, but it's a wonderful tool to get to the end where we want to be with,

00:34:53.180 we want to be clean before Jesus and before others.

00:34:59.120 How do you choose that person?

00:35:01.780 Well, you pray, ask the Lord to show you who it might be, or go to a counselor,

00:35:06.480 go to a trusted friend, go to a pastor and say, who would you trust?

00:35:11.580 This is what I want to do.

00:35:13.340 Who would you suggest?

00:35:14.500 Or just watch, watch people in the church.

00:35:16.780 Who do other people trust?

00:35:18.880 And you'll eventually discern who that person might be.

00:35:22.700 And it's, and you can ask them, can I use you as a confessional confessor?

00:35:27.400 And they may be a little surprised, but don't just lay it on them without asking them and get preparing them.

00:35:36.480 I want to, um, you, uh, you talk about bitterness in the book.

00:35:44.340 And I think this, um, I think I want to come back to bitterness.

00:35:52.080 10, I think is your fourth husband, is it not?

00:35:54.640 Um, telling yourself the truth.

00:35:56.780 Yes.

00:35:57.440 Yes.

00:35:58.500 Do you feel comfortable telling this story?

00:36:00.920 Yeah.

00:36:01.280 Yeah.

00:36:01.420 Okay.

00:36:02.540 So when was this?

00:36:04.900 This was in 2000.

00:36:07.460 I married in 2009.

00:36:09.560 Okay.

00:36:10.560 And it lasted till 2011.

00:36:14.000 And he, um, he was not nice.

00:36:17.140 About the time we met.

00:36:18.080 Mm-hmm.

00:36:18.440 He was not nice to me.

00:36:19.740 He was the one that actually introduced me to your radio show.

00:36:22.460 Oh, wow.

00:36:23.020 And, um.

00:36:23.460 And you still like me.

00:36:24.160 He was not nice to me.

00:36:28.560 And he was, um, emotionally abusive.

00:36:32.280 Abusive just about every way.

00:36:34.160 He never hit me.

00:36:35.780 But, um.

00:36:37.040 I don't think people understand emotional abuse.

00:36:39.340 It's worse than.

00:36:41.020 It, the scars are just as deep.

00:36:43.120 Exactly.

00:36:43.440 Just as deep.

00:36:44.140 Nobody can see them.

00:36:45.060 Right.

00:36:45.300 And you feel crazy.

00:36:47.820 You know, just when you get beat, women or whoever is on the receiving end is convinced, 0.99

00:36:53.360 well, I caused that.

00:36:55.100 And emotional abuse is even worse because perhaps I'm just imagining that.

00:37:00.920 Mm-hmm.

00:37:01.520 Mm-hmm.

00:37:02.280 Well, I kept giving my pieces of myself away just to make him happy.

00:37:06.820 What does that mean?

00:37:07.580 Well, that just means I kept trying to please him.

00:37:09.480 I kept doing everything I could to please him, to make him happy.

00:37:12.180 And it just didn't work.

00:37:13.320 He, he wasn't in love with me.

00:37:15.440 And he said that up front.

00:37:17.500 And your kids knew.

00:37:18.540 Kids knew.

00:37:18.980 Oh, my kids were furious that I married him.

00:37:22.140 And what did that do to you?

00:37:24.280 Well, it hurt me.

00:37:27.860 And I should have just walked away when I realized that none of them liked him.

00:37:33.660 But at that point, I was too caught up.

00:37:35.600 I was too, I needed that security.

00:37:38.100 I needed those arms around me.

00:37:39.400 I needed somebody to walk through life with me.

00:37:41.760 This is before you realize, I've abandoned me.

00:37:45.640 Yes, exactly.

00:37:46.480 I did not know that.

00:37:47.960 And that's what, it was years, years of counseling.

00:37:50.680 Nobody ever said that to me, which you would think.

00:37:53.700 Somebody would have said that.

00:37:54.720 Especially with your history with your dad.

00:37:57.520 Exactly.

00:37:58.100 But nobody had ever said that to me, or at least I'd never heard it.

00:38:00.740 So this man was manipulative. 0.88

00:38:04.020 He was, he's a narcissist. 1.00

00:38:06.240 He's a sociopath. 0.99

00:38:08.120 And I just fell right into his trap. 0.83

00:38:11.620 And he knew, he'd known the family for a long time, so he knew all the buttons to push.

00:38:16.120 And I just, I fell into it.

00:38:19.040 And I realized I'd made a terrible mistake.

00:38:23.300 Again.

00:38:24.420 But how could I admit that?

00:38:25.720 How could I possibly admit that?

00:38:27.340 Especially even to your children.

00:38:28.800 Yes, exactly.

00:38:29.960 You were right.

00:38:30.820 Mm-hmm.

00:38:31.060 And he had.

00:38:32.400 So wait a minute, wait, wait, wait.

00:38:33.660 So what did that say to you that you would think, I can't tell my children because, why?

00:38:45.660 They'll say.

00:38:46.240 I'm the mother.

00:38:47.300 You know, the mother's supposed to have it all together. 0.91

00:38:49.420 And I really didn't have it all together.

00:38:51.540 How was I going to admit that to them?

00:38:56.200 And my fourth husband had a terrible accident.

00:38:58.880 And I was on the, I was on my computer and my assistant was on the phone.

00:39:06.140 I could hear her say something.

00:39:07.540 And my ears picked up and she said, let me get her on the phone. 1.00

00:39:11.040 So my assistant came in and said, there's somebody on the phone for you.

00:39:14.820 And I picked up the phone and they asked me if my husband, what medications my husband was on.

00:39:21.900 And I said, well, wait a minute, who are you?

00:39:24.260 And she said, there's been a terrible accident.

00:39:26.560 And your husband, I need to know your husband's medications.

00:39:30.220 I said, I'll go get them.

00:39:32.300 She said, no, bring them.

00:39:34.340 And it was an hour and a half drive.

00:39:36.560 So I drove.

00:39:37.740 I had no idea what to expect.

00:39:39.560 But when I pulled in, there was a police officer standing at the emergency door.

00:39:44.240 And he said, we'll take you up to the trauma center.

00:39:46.040 And I walked in, a team of doctors surrounded me.

00:39:50.060 And they said, your husband is on life support.

00:39:54.500 And it was, it was a really strange feeling.

00:39:57.720 He listed all these traumas to his body.

00:40:02.080 And I must not have heard of, I think it was shock.

00:40:04.380 And I looked up at him and I said, are these life threatening?

00:40:07.860 Any one of them was life threatening.

00:40:09.680 So I said, I want to see him.

00:40:11.300 And they said, maybe you shouldn't.

00:40:13.260 And I said, no, I want to see him.

00:40:14.920 So I walked down to his room and I saw him and he didn't look recognizable.

00:40:19.680 He was a mess.

00:40:21.500 But Glenn, I had the strongest sense of God's presence.

00:40:25.700 I knew that I was in his hands, that he was going to take care of me.

00:40:30.000 And he did.

00:40:30.840 It was months of recovery, months of recovery and really abuse.

00:40:35.020 He was ugly to me even then.

00:40:37.280 So didn't you have an argument right before? 0.73

00:40:40.800 Yes.

00:40:41.620 He was leaving to have his car serviced in Richmond and he had not worked for three years.

00:40:48.140 And I needed him to begin to make money for the family.

00:40:51.660 I couldn't live off what I was making, but he wouldn't do it.

00:40:54.820 He just made no effort whatsoever.

00:40:56.660 And so I said to him again, I said, Greg, you've got to get a job.

00:40:59.900 And he cursed at me with a crude word and walked out the door.

00:41:06.740 And I went, oh, now what?

00:41:11.920 And what does that mean to you?

00:41:14.820 What was that feeling to you?

00:41:18.460 Well, it was, again, I've done it again.

00:41:21.060 I've got to somehow figure this out.

00:41:23.500 In a pit in your stomach.

00:41:24.920 Oh, yes.

00:41:26.220 Oh, yes.

00:41:27.000 But I knew I had to figure it out.

00:41:28.680 And my assistant was coming within minutes.

00:41:31.540 So I had to put the mask on and pretend everything was okay and went to work.

00:41:36.640 You hadn't confided with anyone?

00:41:38.500 No, no.

00:41:39.320 No one.

00:41:41.160 And my children figured it out, but I hadn't told anybody.

00:41:44.860 How did they figure it out?

00:41:45.900 Well, they just didn't like him.

00:41:46.980 And he tried to shut them away.

00:41:48.840 He was a control freak and he shut them away.

00:41:50.800 He didn't want them around.

00:41:51.760 He made sure that I was away from them.

00:41:55.220 And my children mean so much to me.

00:41:57.260 I mean, you know, Glenn, I just adore my children.

00:42:00.340 But he had isolated me.

00:42:04.900 And I knew I had to get out of that box.

00:42:09.980 But how?

00:42:12.500 And so when the call came and I heard there was an accident, I thought, now what, God?

00:42:19.180 How much more can I take?

00:42:22.400 But I went, I drove down to Richmond and saw him.

00:42:25.700 And again, that overwhelming sense that God was with me and he was going to show me what to do.

00:42:29.720 And he did.

00:42:30.680 He did.

00:42:31.520 I quickly learned that he had put me in debt to the tune of $100,000.

00:42:37.760 Well, that was news to me.

00:42:39.100 I was just floored.

00:42:40.140 So he had been running up credit card bills or whatever?

00:42:45.160 So I had to sort that out, too.

00:42:47.200 I had to sell our home, which he was unhappy about.

00:42:50.120 But I said, I have no choice.

00:42:51.680 I have to sell the house.

00:42:53.120 How was he?

00:42:55.060 Didn't he lose?

00:42:56.460 Lost an arm.

00:42:57.360 Lost an arm.

00:42:59.200 Had to go through dialysis, right?

00:43:01.960 I mean, what were the, what was the extent of the injury?

00:43:04.760 Well, he lost an arm.

00:43:06.100 He had to go through dialysis.

00:43:07.920 He was on a ventilator.

00:43:11.620 And for how long?

00:43:13.660 Probably a couple of weeks.

00:43:15.060 And then he had a brain bleed.

00:43:17.780 So he was, he was in a bad shape.

00:43:19.620 He was in a bad shape.

00:43:20.580 But he, we got him into rehab and he, you know, we got him patched up and got him home for Christmas.

00:43:25.800 And I was really pleased.

00:43:27.240 And we went to church together, you know, and I thought, well, maybe this will be a turning point.

00:43:30.860 Maybe this will get his attention.

00:43:32.920 It didn't.

00:43:34.760 And I had to sell the house.

00:43:37.220 I had to, I had to move on, pay off the debts and, and move on.

00:43:41.360 And he became very angry.

00:43:43.700 And that's when he filed for her divorce.

00:43:46.760 What was the turning point from there?

00:44:02.620 How did you not turn, which takes me back a chapter in your book, how does this not turn into bitterness?

00:44:09.160 Glenn, I think bitterness is part of the human experience.

00:44:15.040 And I think we, we do become bitter, but we can't stay there.

00:44:19.160 The Bible says, don't let a root of bitterness dig down deep and spring up and defile other people.

00:44:24.780 I knew I would experience bitterness, but I couldn't live there.

00:44:28.940 I couldn't set up camp.

00:44:30.100 I had to move on.

00:44:31.260 And you do that with the scriptures.

00:44:33.560 You know, I believe firmly that the scripture is the truth of God and that we use that in our minds to renew our minds.

00:44:41.980 So, I agree with you.

00:44:44.700 Now, tell me, because I think there's a parallel that runs in everybody's life.

00:44:52.040 In fact, I've got to read this.

00:44:53.900 I love the way you tell a story.

00:44:56.540 Anyway, you say, can you think of a person who nearly always finds it, you find particularly hard to forgive you?

00:45:06.400 If you're anything like me, the answer to that question is yes, yes, me.

00:45:10.600 How can we forgive ourselves, especially when we're repeat offenders?

00:45:15.120 Hang on just a second.

00:45:16.440 There was, shoot, where was it?

00:45:20.240 It was where you were talking about, no, it's this one.

00:45:23.020 It's this one.

00:45:23.460 I'm sorry.

00:45:23.980 One afternoon, the phone rang.

00:45:25.220 I picked it up and I heard her voice.

00:45:29.560 Instantly, I felt knots in my stomach.

00:45:32.100 I pretended to be glad to hear from her while my familiar internal script scrolling through my mind.

00:45:38.120 She is so patronizing and controlling. 1.00

00:45:40.060 I've tried, but I can hardly bear to interact with her.

00:45:43.120 If she tells me one more time, dot, dot, dot.

00:45:46.660 Here's the important line.

00:45:48.500 Did anyone come to your mind when you read that?

00:45:52.220 Yeah.

00:45:53.200 Yeah.

00:45:53.680 And as I'm reading that, I think everybody does.

00:45:56.040 And then in your case, extreme, here's a guy who's abusive and you try to do everything you can.

00:46:05.400 Um, you then are with him and you nurse him back to health and he's even worse.

00:46:14.080 Uh, and you know, he puts you in debt.

00:46:17.760 He wasted all this time. 0.96

00:46:21.040 Another notch to where you're like, uh, four is ridiculous. 0.90

00:46:26.000 I even questioned whether I was a believer. 0.88

00:46:29.700 You know, I thought, how can I keep making these mistakes?

00:46:32.640 I really doubted if I had known the Lord at all.

00:46:36.560 But the Lord reassured me that I did know him and that I was safe in his arms.

00:46:40.520 And the reason why you kept making these mistakes, tell me about the discovery.

00:46:47.120 After this relationship, um, a, how did you not hold on to bitterness with him?

00:46:57.000 Yeah.

00:46:58.280 Because that, that's what we're doing in, in all of our lives right now.

00:47:03.080 We're constantly being told something.

00:47:07.900 We're constantly fighting.

00:47:09.720 We're constantly having to stand up and fight for simple things that we shouldn't have to

00:47:13.700 fight for.

00:47:14.920 And we tried, we've all tried to be good.

00:47:18.340 And I'm talking to people on both sides who feel this way politically.

00:47:22.340 And now we're so embittered and we're like, it's not my fault.

00:47:26.700 It's your fault.

00:47:28.840 How do you let that go?

00:47:30.580 So much anger.

00:47:31.720 We don't let it go on our own.

00:47:34.560 You know, that's where the Holy Spirit has to come in.

00:47:37.020 And, um, we have to ask the Holy Spirit to intervene and be our helper.

00:47:44.360 And that God, Jesus says, he is our helper.

00:47:46.480 He's our comforter.

00:47:47.240 He's our advocate.

00:47:48.540 We ask him to come in and help us.

00:47:50.740 But it's a, it's a day by day thing.

00:47:54.240 Forgiveness, letting go of bitterness is not an overnight thing.

00:47:58.440 It, it may take a lifetime, but we have to be working through that process.

00:48:03.920 And it, it is a lifetime process.

00:48:05.960 But I know for me, and it was, I wrote about it in the book.

00:48:11.560 I had always, when people talked about divorce, I always cringed, you know, at me.

00:48:17.540 And, um, one day I was in Sunday school class and the Sunday school teacher was comparing

00:48:24.800 the Corinth of Paul's day to our culture today.

00:48:28.820 And he asked the question, when did we begin this downward slide?

00:48:32.100 And someone in the back yelled that when we accepted divorce. 0.96

00:48:34.600 Well, normally I would go, oh no, but I didn't.

00:48:39.420 And I heard him, but it didn't affect me.

00:48:42.320 So afterwards he said, oh, Ruth, please come.

00:48:44.260 He said, I'm so sorry.

00:48:45.220 I meant to say easy divorce.

00:48:48.380 And I realized I was standing in Romans 8.1.

00:48:51.660 There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

00:48:55.320 Can I tell you when it happened?

00:48:57.200 Can I tell you where it happened?

00:48:58.240 No, I just can tell you that it did happen.

00:49:00.820 And that is a miracle.

00:49:03.340 I remember, I don't remember the specific time like you, but I remember conversion.

00:49:10.720 I remember being baptized clearly.

00:49:14.020 And I remember making that commitment.

00:49:16.600 And that's not conversion.

00:49:17.420 And then one day, three, four years later, I realized, wow, I only want to do good.

00:49:27.520 I only want to do these things.

00:49:29.700 I don't, I'm not that way anymore.

00:49:32.040 And I can't tell you when it happened.

00:49:33.840 No.

00:49:34.660 But it does.

00:49:35.720 When we open ourselves up for it, God will see that it happens.

00:49:39.420 And that's how you got rid of your bitterness.

00:49:42.560 And using the scriptures, renewing my mind, that I didn't want to be a bitter person.

00:49:47.800 I've seen bitter people, and they're not pretty.

00:49:50.440 I didn't want to be a bitter person.

00:49:52.560 I wanted to have the Holy Spirit fill my life and give me peace and contentment and courage.

00:50:01.300 And He has.

00:50:02.220 You, well, first, let's talk about when that person said to you, you were abandoned.

00:50:11.780 What, why, how did that connect?

00:50:14.120 How did you not see that?

00:50:16.460 How did that not connect with you before?

00:50:19.000 I have no idea.

00:50:20.460 I have no idea.

00:50:21.400 Because it's absolutely right there in front of your face.

00:50:25.300 That's why you were staying with these bad guys, because.

00:50:28.600 I wanted security.

00:50:29.420 Yeah.

00:50:29.900 Yeah, you know they'll leave, and then who am I?

00:50:33.800 And my father never knew this.

00:50:36.280 He was not conversant by the time I discovered this.

00:50:39.220 But, of course, he's hearing our conversation now, so he knows.

00:50:43.500 And it would hurt his heart.

00:50:45.420 But he said in his memoirs, you know, I'm sure that my absences had a profound effect on my children.

00:50:51.620 And they did.

00:50:53.500 I'm telling my story, not my sibling's story, because they reacted differently than I did.

00:50:57.460 We all do.

00:50:58.100 But I just, I was grateful that that, I finally discovered my core issue.

00:51:04.880 That was my core issue.

00:51:06.020 And we all have one.

00:51:07.320 You know, I use Samson as an illustration in the book.

00:51:09.660 His passion was his core issue.

00:51:11.320 He couldn't let go of women. 1.00

00:51:13.060 You know, he was just a mess.

00:51:14.500 But God used him.

00:51:16.480 Used him to judge Israel for 20 years. 0.50

00:51:19.100 You know why?

00:51:19.940 He's listed in Hebrews 11, the chapter of faith.

00:51:23.480 Why?

00:51:23.900 Only by the grace of God.

00:51:28.160 What's that mean?

00:51:29.860 He did nothing to deserve it.

00:51:31.880 Not a thing.

00:51:32.840 I mean, Samson was really sort of a yucky character.

00:51:36.220 He did everything wrong.

00:51:37.860 And he went out of his way to do things wrong.

00:51:40.480 But God used him anyway.

00:51:43.080 He did not deserve it.

00:51:44.120 And that gives me hope.

00:51:48.260 Yeah.

00:51:48.960 Mm-hmm.

00:51:50.280 Except you kind of want to see those people who have done wrong intentionally.

00:51:54.860 You know, get their comeuppance.

00:51:57.620 But God's in charge of that.

00:51:59.360 Yeah.

00:52:00.380 God's in, not me. 0.79

00:52:01.180 I know I have, I have, uh, in my worst times, uh, I haven't had these for a while, but in

00:52:09.280 my worst times when I feel like I've done everything and I'm just fighting the world and, and I'm

00:52:17.040 like, when, when are you coming?

00:52:20.480 We're swinging it out here.

00:52:22.400 When are you showing up for the fight?

00:52:24.540 And, um, I, I'll never forget.

00:52:28.380 I've heard this several times in my prayers, but he has been very clear and almost stern

00:52:35.000 with me on the way we have a very different relationship, um, but almost stern, these are

00:52:41.560 not enemies of yours.

00:52:45.260 These are enemies of mine and I will deal with them in my time.

00:52:52.200 And his time is not our time.

00:52:53.440 His time is not our time. 0.71

00:52:55.220 And his way of dealing with them may not be the way I would deal with it.

00:53:00.020 You know, we, we, we, um, we want revenge.

00:53:06.880 Yeah.

00:53:07.700 And we're so, uh, we're self-hating egomaniacs in the quiet of night.

00:53:18.480 We hate ourselves in our worst days.

00:53:21.480 And, but the, the rest of it is either we're hiding that wound or we actually believe I

00:53:30.700 know best.

00:53:32.480 It's the craziest combination.

00:53:34.620 That's where the word of God has to play in.

00:53:37.620 We have to renew our mind with the scriptures because we, we will be safe, self-hating, but

00:53:42.160 we know that God loves us totally and completely and unconditionally.

00:53:45.840 And that's what my father showed me.

00:53:48.020 You know, I told the story at the funeral where my father accepted me home after the second

00:53:52.320 marriage and just welcomed me home.

00:53:54.960 No questions asked.

00:53:56.000 And that showed me what God was like, because that's what God does for us.

00:54:02.220 And I told that story at the funeral.

00:54:05.460 I loved your dad.

00:54:06.820 I did too.

00:54:07.980 I don't know if, I don't know if, I don't know because I met him towards the end.

00:54:13.900 And, um, so I didn't, I didn't see the fire, you know, years of fire.

00:54:21.480 He may not have gotten along with me at all.

00:54:24.040 Um, he would have enjoyed you.

00:54:25.720 Yeah.

00:54:26.220 And he had a special place in his heart for you, Glenn.

00:54:28.060 I've, I've truly believed that.

00:54:29.820 I just loved him.

00:54:30.840 I just loved him.

00:54:32.320 And, uh, uh, I've just never seen anyone.

00:54:38.500 So at peace, you know, he was, he was not troubled.

00:54:47.540 No.

00:54:48.560 And it was, he said to me one point, he said, cause I'm, I was like, Billy, I'm trying.

00:54:55.400 He's not talking.

00:54:56.580 I mean, it's, it's not loud enough sometimes and I'm trying and I don't know what I'm doing

00:55:01.600 and I'm bluffing half the time.

00:55:03.880 And he looked at me and he said, I'm not afraid to die.

00:55:07.380 And it was, I can, I mean, I can see his eyes when I say that we were so close and he held

00:55:15.860 my hand and, um, he said, I have screwed so much up.

00:55:23.280 I have, I have tried my whole time.

00:55:27.360 I've tried, but I know I failed all in areas.

00:55:31.740 I didn't even realize that I'll find out.

00:55:34.160 He said, but I tried.

00:55:36.720 I tried and I know all my shortcomings will be covered.

00:55:44.340 Absolutely.

00:55:45.320 And he trusted that with every fiber of his being, that the blood of Jesus washes it all

00:55:50.340 away.

00:55:51.260 Tell me what happened when you told your children about the fourth marriage.

00:55:56.180 How did they react?

00:55:57.420 The end of it?

00:55:58.500 Yeah.

00:55:58.840 Oh, they were pleased.

00:56:00.240 There wasn't a question about it.

00:56:01.580 And there was nothing that you had in your head.

00:56:04.500 No, not one second of that.

00:56:07.040 And I tell the story in the book where I asked their forgiveness.

00:56:09.820 I had to go to each child and say, will you forgive me?

00:56:12.520 And they said, oh, mom, you don't need to ask us for your forgiveness.

00:56:15.560 And I said, yes, I do.

00:56:17.000 I said, I need to hear it from you.

00:56:18.700 And so I looked each one of them in the eye and I asked their forgiveness.

00:56:21.520 And they said, of course, mother.

00:56:23.620 And that's freeing for a mother.

00:56:25.580 Right.

00:56:27.780 And why is that important that you heard that?

00:56:32.440 It just was.

00:56:33.900 I just needed to hear it from them because I had done so much damage.

00:56:37.740 I had really made a mess of things.

00:56:41.200 And they loved me through it.

00:56:42.540 Do you think if you didn't have their voices recorded by your eyes and ears,

00:56:49.420 and you would have known it anyway that they forgave you,

00:56:54.140 but do you think at all that would have been handing a tool to the adversary

00:56:59.420 to play the whispers of night?

00:57:02.600 Probably.

00:57:03.600 I think when we ask for forgiveness, we take the tools away from him.

00:57:09.300 And God gives us a whole new set of tools.

00:57:11.560 And I'm very grateful to my children.

00:57:14.560 There's nothing like living in the bright light, you know?

00:57:19.700 Because when times come and they're hard,

00:57:22.980 and they're hard in every family and every spouse,

00:57:26.800 when you know I'm clean, there's no worry.

00:57:32.260 That's right.

00:57:32.880 And it's...

00:57:33.680 Nothing to hide from.

00:57:35.040 It's where your dad was in the end.

00:57:37.300 Very much so.

00:57:38.640 Are you there?

00:57:39.720 I think so.

00:57:40.740 I am content.

00:57:42.200 I'm at peace.

00:57:44.680 I truly am.

00:57:46.020 And I'm grateful.

00:57:48.460 I have family members who have been through

00:57:52.580 and have abandonment issues.

00:57:56.820 And they're getting better.

00:58:04.800 They really are.

00:58:06.220 But it's...

00:58:06.960 It's a journey.

00:58:12.760 It's a journey.

00:58:13.780 And you think you're good.

00:58:18.220 Even when you open everything up, you think you're good.

00:58:20.620 And what's nice is you get to a point where you're like,

00:58:25.840 oh, wait, there's something else here.

00:58:28.180 And it just gets better and better.

00:58:30.300 Mm-hmm.

00:58:30.400 Mm-hmm.

00:58:31.480 And the enemy will try to bring our emotions back

00:58:34.240 and say, we'll feel the revenge.

00:58:37.400 We'll feel the bitterness.

00:58:38.280 We'll feel all the anger.

00:58:39.640 That doesn't mean we haven't forgiven.

00:58:40.940 It means that we need to let it go.

00:58:45.000 And because emotions don't tell the truth.

00:58:48.280 Only God's word tells us the truth.

00:58:50.860 And his word will make us better and better.

00:58:55.060 And that's both good emotions and bad emotions.

00:58:57.320 Mm-hmm.

00:58:57.580 Mm-hmm.

00:58:58.500 Emotions...

00:58:59.020 Don't tell the truth.

00:59:00.020 ...right before your fourth marriage.

00:59:02.140 Mm-hmm.

00:59:02.580 Didn't tell the truth.

00:59:03.480 Mm-hmm.

00:59:04.300 I think they were probably standing on tiptoe yelling,

00:59:06.660 but I wasn't paying attention.

00:59:07.780 Thank you.

00:59:11.120 Thank you, Glenn.

00:59:12.060 God bless.

00:59:12.620 Thank you.

00:59:13.180 The name of the book is

00:59:13.960 Forgiving My Father, Forgiving Myself

00:59:16.000 by my friend, Ruth Graham.

00:59:23.640 Just a reminder,

00:59:25.100 I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast

00:59:27.820 and pass this on to a friend

00:59:29.300 so it can be discovered by other people.

00:59:30.920 Thank you.

00:59:37.780 Thank you.

00:59:39.620 Thank you.

00:59:40.620 Thank you.

00:59:42.060 Thank you.

00:59:42.720 Thank you.

00:59:44.120 Thank you.

00:59:47.060 Thank you.

00:59:47.280 Thank you.

The Glenn Beck Program - February 22, 2020

Ep 68 ｜ Billy Graham’s Daughter： Kanye & Deepest Confessions ｜ Ruth Graham ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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