Ep 68 ｜ Billy Graham’s Daughter： Kanye & Deepest Confessions ｜ Ruth Graham ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast
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Summary
Pastor Ruth Graham shares her story of growing up in the shadow of her famous father, the Reverend Billy Graham. She talks about how she grew up in a broken home and how she learned to forgive her father. She also talks about Kanye West and his new album, Jesus Is King.
Transcript
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This podcast, I want to introduce you to somebody who's had a lot of struggle in her life,
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and she is the least expected to have struggle in her life. She lived in the shadow of a very
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famous father, a man who led congregations around the world, was the pastor for presidents, I think
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from maybe Truman on. In one of her books, she wrote, I know what it's like to sit in a pew
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with a broken heart. She has battled depression, addiction, shame, divorce, bulimia, unwed
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pregnancy. Her latest book is Forgiving My Father, Forgiving Myself. It's a meditation on forgiveness.
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In it, she quotes Pastor Greg Ogden, who writes, at the core of every human being is the desire for
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deep and satisfying relationships because we are all created in the image of God. Our conversation,
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I think, is proof of those words. She starts out by telling me a secret, one she was afraid to tell
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me. Ruth Graham, the daughter of Reverend Billy Graham.
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Hi, Ruth. Hi. How are you, Glenn? I'm well. So good. So good to see you. Yeah, good to see you. Thank
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you. I love you so much. Thank you. And I love you. Appreciate you. Yeah, you're a good woman. Well,
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thank you. And brave. As people will find out, if they don't know your story, they will find out.
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But I want to talk to you first about some things that are, have you paid any attention to Kanye West?
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I have. As a matter of fact, I was watching last night on the news when he was with Joel Osteen and
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just fascinated, just fascinated with what's happened. I don't know his story yet. I haven't heard his story,
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but I am fascinated. There's a couple of things going on that I'm, I'd be interested in hearing
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from you. Somebody who has led the life that he did. I mean, it's crazy. Crazy. Oh yeah. Crazy. And
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he's with the Kardashians. So it's still crazy. Yep. But he seems to have had a road to Damascus kind of
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moment. And I think the dog piling on him, uh, when he said I was a Trump supporter, uh, or not even
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that, just, I don't have to vote the way everybody thinks. I think that pounded him. And can you truly
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be, um, truly in God's hands if you haven't been pounded by him?
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Dr. A.W. Tozer said a man, God can only use a man that he's broken. Can't use a man greatly until
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he's wounded him deeply, something like that. And I think that's true, Glenn. And I think you and I
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would both attest to that in our own lives. It was only in brokenness that we felt like God really
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got ahold of us. And so I'm, we can be grateful for the brokenness.
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Because we, and, and, and I don't know anything about, uh, about Kanye, but just looking at my
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life. And I think you could relate to this. You tend to puff yourself up when you're really afraid,
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you know, like puffer's fish, you puff yourself up and you, you have to tell that story to keep
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going because you're so wounded inside. But once you, once you let go, that's when God can.
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That's right. And I think the scripture says, don't judge anything before it's time. Let God
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judge it. And, and I think that's what we need to do with Kanye is to let him not use him because
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so often evangelicals love to use a new testimony, you know, and I think we have to be careful.
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Paul was sent to the desert for three years. So we need to give Kanye his three years,
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It doesn't even, does it matter? Um, because I've been saying to the audience,
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this is great to watch. And I think, and I'm not picking him at face value. I think it might be
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real. That's great. However, he's going to make a mistake because we all do. And it might even be,
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and I don't think it is, but it might even be fake. I don't think so. I don't think so either, but
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that shouldn't matter. Don't we get lost when we put our faith in man, his, his message is bringing
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people together and they're experiencing something, but it's not Kanye that they're experiencing.
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And he's lifting up the name of Jesus. Right. And that's important. And Jesus said,
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if they're not against us, they're for us. So I'm going to take Kanye at face value and,
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Are the days, your father told me something, um, the first time we met and I asked him,
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where's the next you, um, where's the next Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. And he said,
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I don't think it's going to happen that way this time. Did he tell you that?
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I'd love to hear your explanation of this. He said that God is just going to use all these little
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people and each, everybody's going to stand up in their own way. And I mean, this is before the
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internet really kicked out. And he said, they're all just going to find each other and they're
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going to start connecting and they'll think to themselves, I'm alone. And how am I supposed
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to accomplish this? And then they'll connect with somebody else who was trying to accomplish
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something, but they had the missing piece for this person. And this person had the other missing
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piece. And he said, it'll come together that way. Everyone will know it's not man. It's God.
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It is God. And then I, I tend to think that it might be through the arts and Kanye may be a part of it.
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Look at the passion of the Christ and what it did. You know, it might come through the arts.
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It's not going to, I don't think it's going to come from stadium preaching like my father,
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but certainly there's room for that. But I'm interested to see what God's going to do.
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Your dad stadium preaching really changed the world in many ways. And he was unique.
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Barry at that. Um, you think that time has passed that is it, is it, uh, let me rephrase it.
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But I got a news for, I don't like church. I talked to a pastor this weekend. He said,
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I say to my wife sometimes on Sundays, I don't want to go to church. She's like, you have to.
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Um, but they don't like church. Um, they don't like the central, they don't like the doctrine
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that is spewed without the work. They want to make a difference.
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So I kind of see this millennial generation going down and saying, I don't like church
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and I tend to understand it and agree with them. And no one seems to be saying, Hey, let's go make
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a difference. You know, church is a building the way we've been defining it, but that's not what
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it's supposed to be. No, no, it's, it's, it's people, right? It's people. So are you, are you
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optimistic about the trends you're seeing with millennials or I have to be optimistic because
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I know God is at work. Um, I don't necessarily see it, but then I don't have to, you know, God's
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the one that's in charge. And I really, I trust God to do what he's going to do. I, I
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read revelation a couple of summers ago to read, to study it. And the only thing I came
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away with was God has a plan and he's in charge and that's all I need to know. And I think that's
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really all we need to know. Um, how do you, how do you explain to people the Christian movement
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that has latched on to somebody like Donald Trump?
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I don't know that I can answer that Glenn. I think, um, they stand, they like his policies.
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They don't particularly care for the man and the language he uses and, but we have to remember he
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is a construction worker from the Bronx. And that's what we got. Yeah. And he's rough. He's
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very rough, but I like his policies. I like his pro-life policies. I like his Israel policy. Um,
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I like the way he loves the military and I think he loves this country.
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I do too. I, I, I agree with his China policy. I have lots of things that I disagree with,
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but I can separate that. But you know, on this impeachment, um, that's been going on,
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I've been doing some exposés on, you know, Donald Trump is a hand grenade, you know,
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and the American people threw him into the oval office and he's going to blow stuff up.
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And he did with Ukraine. He blew some stuff up and a wall came down. And if you take the time to
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look, you're like, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Dust him off. He's okay. What's behind that wall?
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You know? And I wanted to ask you, is there a difference between, um, being used for good
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and used, uh, for God or used by God? They can be one in the same, but I think the ultimate good
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is God. So when we are doing good, we are doing what God would have us do. But we don't necessarily,
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and I don't mean it this, this way, um, what you've gone through, what I've gone through,
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I've made some horrible mistakes. I had bad decisions surrounded by sometimes bad people
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drinking alcoholism, all bad. However, while that was bad, God used it for good. Okay. And that's
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different than somebody who is, has been called by God, uh, who is doing good works and God is
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really shaping him. God, I think can use a good person and a wrecking ball. You know, it doesn't
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matter. He's God. Exactly. Exactly. He's in charge. Right. And I trust him.
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So let's talk a little bit about your journey. I am, and I want to get to this later. I think I
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pulled it out here. There's a place in chapter 10. You caught me back to myself. Yeah. My father put
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ministry before family. God gave him his family first, but he left his, let the pressures of his
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ministry take over, leaving his family sometimes for six months at a time. I felt as if when I needed
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him most, he was the farthest away. He once estimated that while we were growing up, he traveled
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over 50% of the time. And when he was home, he was tired, preoccupied, and surrounded by staff
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and those who needed him. There were others nearly constantly present with him and our family.
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Our daughter of a daughter of a former U S president told me once staff ruins intimacy. She was
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right. Privacy for long, thoughtful conversations or tender moments of intimate connection with my
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father was rare. And a busy, distracted father cannot spend much time developing a relationship
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And Glenn, make it, I want to make it very clear. I am not criticizing my father, not in the least.
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No, I'm not in that place. I adored my father and you know that.
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I just, he was my hero and he still is. I miss him terribly, but it is true that his traveling
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did have repercussions in our life. And each one of us maybe handled it differently. I handled it the
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way I handled it, which was very destructive. I was looking for security because I didn't feel
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secure as a little girl because he wasn't there. And I married early at 18 that ended in divorce
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after 21 years. So I had a rebound marriage that ended after three months. I married again,
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a man that I really adored. But after 10 years, he decided he didn't want to be married.
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And then I married again. And this, Glenn, last time we had the conversation, I shared with you
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part of my story. But I was too embarrassed to tell you about my fourth marriage. I was so full of
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shame. It was eating me alive and it's eaten me ever since. And I need to ask you forgiveness for
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that because I wasn't totally honest with you. I wasn't transparent. And yet we thought I was,
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you know, I get left with the impression that I was, but I wasn't. And I felt very badly about that.
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And I thought, oh, Glenn's going to find out I've been married four times. And he'll think I'm a fraud.
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But I was looking for security. And it wasn't until someone looked at me, a conversation I had with
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a friend in Nashville. And he looked at me, he said, Ruth, as a little girl, you felt abandoned.
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I did not want that to be true. Again, because my father was my hero. I adored him.
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But that piece of the puzzle fit. And since that day on, it was clear that I didn't need a man
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to take care of me. I had all I needed in Jesus. But it wasn't until that point and after four marriages.
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And I'm not married now. And I don't plan to get married again.
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Yeah, good. Let's, let's, let's, let's come from, let's, let's start at the beginning.
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Because I've, I've dog-eared a few of the pages. It's a great book of, it's a great spiritual book.
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It's a great book of common sense and, and healing. And I think, I know, I know we all struggle
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with the same things, but nobody says them out loud. And so you think you're alone.
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and you think, do you really think I would have judged you that way?
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But I was, I was grieved in my heart that I had done that to you. And I just.
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We would have laughed that off. Um, it's, we sit and we make things worse.
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And somehow or another convinced that we're the only ones that are screwed up.
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But I already knew I had screwed up three times. Why couldn't I admit the fourth?
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Okay. So let's, let's start here. You start with, um, a summer in Switzerland.
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And your dad, um, disciplines you for fighting with your brother, right?
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And, uh, and he decides he's going to discipline you, but not your brother.
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Well, we were all gathered together for family devotions.
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And I would poke him back, you know, as children do.
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Well, you don't think of Billy Graham's family.
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But, um, so finally my father stepped in and he separated us and he put mother between us.
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And my brother reached around front of mother and poked, no, reached around her back and poked me.
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Daddy saw me and he got me and he put me over his knee and he spanked me.
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And I was mortified because it wasn't just the family.
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He wouldn't let me go because I wanted to go to my room.
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He would, he held me close and he held me close to his heart, which was a good lesson.
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You know, sometimes we are disciplined and it is hard, but we're being held close to the father's heart.
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But you didn't, you didn't feel that for a long time.
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Because I would, I would imagine that, I mean, disciplining in front of strangers, even the family, um, embarrassment, you know, humiliation.
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Cause she's your brother, you know, um, did he say anything to you about that?
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No, no, that just that he loved me and just to be still, you know, that, that this was something he had to do, that I was, I was wrong for reaching around and, and hitting him and poking him.
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But he didn't see that, that my brother had poked me first, but that didn't matter to him, I guess.
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So it really made an impression on me, but you know, that's something you have to, um, it is unfair, but we have to forgive the unfair things in our life.
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Um, my, I was raised, uh, I mean, you, your chapter forgiveness isn't fair.
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And I think people are selling that now that life can be fair, that somebody can make this right.
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Or, or, or even, you know, you had a hard life, so I'll fix that for you.
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And it's, there's, there's, there's no way to fix, um, you go on.
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So you, you, you start talking about, you start talking about, um, how it's not fair.
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And then in, in chapter three, um, you talk about, um, God's heartbeat.
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And you said, little did I know that, uh, in truth, time buries all wounds that are not dealt with.
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This is so, I spent so much of my life saying, oh, it's fine.
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You know, people would say, have you ever really dealt with your mother's suicide?
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And, and, and, and, well, how did you deal with it?
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But when you say it buries all wounds, they, they, uh, so buried, they remain securely tucked
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away beneath layers of denial and repression until I experienced a life altering trauma.
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One that shook me to my core and threatened to tear off my well-worn, well-worn mask.
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Suddenly I found my understanding of forgiveness, wholly inadequate.
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Well, that was after, um, my husband's infidelity.
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I'd been married 18 years and he'd been unfaithful for a number of years.
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I'd grown up around honorable men and just never occurred to me that, that he would have an
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affair and not just one affair, but several affairs for years.
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And I just, the rug was pulled out from under me, just, and I floundered.
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I didn't, that's when I, I sort of went into depression.
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I felt like I had to keep the mask on to pretend that everything was okay, but I was coming
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And those that I expected to stand with me didn't, they didn't understand.
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And they thought I should remain with him, reconcile at all costs.
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I was even told to build an extra bedroom on my house and have him live in the house.
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Sometimes not well, because then again, I've, I had this rebound marriage because I wanted
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But God wouldn't have that, me have, wouldn't let me do that.
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But I kept making the same mistake over and over again.
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It's interesting that, to me at least, that we always say the same thing.
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It's like, why am I, I always seem to be in, yeah, it's, it's not them.
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After so long, it's, you have to realize, wait a minute, everything changes around me.
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And you have to face yourself and you have to face the Lord.
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And people need to understand how much the Lord loves them totally and completely.
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And that's a very strong security that we have.
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And right before I went on, Andy Williams called me.
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And he said, hey, I'm doing a show in Palm Springs, uh, tonight.
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Why don't you come down after Leno and, uh, come to the show, my guess.
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And, uh, I didn't because I had to get back home to New York.
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And the reason why is, uh, he played a crucial role in my life.
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And I didn't even understand it until I was 30.
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My mother, we would listen to the Andy Williams Christmas album.
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And every time the song, little altar boy would come on, she would stand behind me and she
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would hold me close to her and she would just hum it.
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And, uh, I always remember this as a really sweet kind of thing.
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And, um, and she'd tell me how much she loved me and many times she would be all choked up.
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And so I always associated that with my mom, but I was a kid and I didn't listen to the words until I was in my thirties.
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And when I did, I realized she was asking me to be an intercessory for her because she wasn't,
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And I think, I was a burden for her, wasn't it?
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My mother used to say of suicides that God didn't call them home, but he welcomed them home.
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You, uh, you don't, until you've been through real depression, people don't understand what that is.
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My, my guy who's like my brother, we grew up together, his father committed suicide.
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And his pastor told his mom, and he was a little kid, he remembers it, I mean, as you would.
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That those wounds are real, but you don't share them with anybody because it's a lie.
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We all have an enemy who tells us that confession is the last thing we want to do.
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He holds us hostage to the fear of what others will think of us.
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But we break his bondage when we confess our sins to God, to ourselves, and those whom
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When we expose ourselves, the enemy can no longer dangle that in front of us, the fear
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Well, I think, um, I remember particularly, and I think I tell the story in the book of
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a young woman, we were in a prayer group together, and we shared confidences.
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And I happened to break that confidence with a, um, woman who wasn't in the prayer group.
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I knew exactly what I'd done, and I felt miserable.
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And I knew I had to ask for forgiveness and confess it to her.
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I didn't, I didn't want to see her, but I had to.
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So I had to tell her what I had done, and then I had to ask her forgiveness.
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And she had a sweet spirit, and she said, of course.
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And she stayed in the prayer group, and I did too, and she continued to share confidences.
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I learned a lesson that I was afraid that I would wonder, well, what's she going to think
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You know, all those kind of thoughts that run through your head.
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She was just very gracious and very sweet to me, and stayed in the prayer group, and
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Only God can forgive us, but so many speak of forgiveness of self.
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We all seem to know what it means to struggle to define it practically.
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I just don't understand on some religions where they believe, even if you're a good person
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and you don't, but you haven't gone to this church, you go to hell.
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I believe that, and you know, I could get up and find all kinds of different answers,
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but what helps me is, I believe that hell is wanting to be right next to your dad or your
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mom, but you have so much crap that you haven't allowed to forgive yourself or be forgiven of
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God is always saying, Jesus is always saying, come.
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But if we, we can forgive everybody else, but if we can't forgive ourself, we can't come
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to him because we won't, we won't be able to look him in the eye.
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Well, and of course, I believe hell is a real place.
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And I think it's a terrible place and we'll be separated from God for eternity.
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But we put ourselves through so much by masking, pretending.
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So I think that we have to take it very seriously, but we can come to God at any time.
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You know, what Jesus died for is my sin and your sin.
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And while he was being nailed to the cross, he said, Father, forgive them.
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I mean, what Jesus went through, you know, if we can't forgive someone, even ourselves,
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It is a truly amazing concept that he would, he didn't defend himself.
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But forgiving them while they're driving nails into him.
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I, I, I don't ever see Jesus as an angry guy, but I, because my relationship with him,
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That he did all of this and then you could forgive others.
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But I, I, I, I, no, no, no, that was my job with everybody else.
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And you did a good, you know, you did a good thing by forgiving them.
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So we're saying that the cross is of no effect.
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Have you, have you noticed how much your book follows?
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Uh, or I should say, uh, your book is biblical and so was the, what alcoholics call the big
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Have you noticed how much you're in line with AA?
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And it, and if healing, if we believe healing comes from God, he's going to package that as
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I was really struck by this when, um, you talked about a counselor asked me, um, on except, uh,
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unexpectedly, if I had subtly used my sexuality to attract men, I said, yes.
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And for the first time in my life, I admitted it to a real live person.
00:33:29.180
And, and the Bible says, confess your sins to one another that you may be healed and that,
00:33:41.340
And a, I think the fifth step is you have to, you make a normal moral inventory and then
00:33:46.540
you have to tell it to somebody and you have to pick wisely.
00:33:51.220
You know, uh, so you're not loading up, you know, an enemy or somebody who's going to give
00:33:55.540
a trusted person, somebody that you can say the worst to that will throw it away.
00:34:01.160
And it means nothing to them, but you have to actually say the words out loud to a person
00:34:13.660
Why is it not, why is it not enough to confess, to confess to the people that you've hurt?
00:34:24.720
I think it's good to confess out loud to someone.
00:34:28.260
Uh, I mean, the Catholic church has us hands down in that area, you know, and, and it works,
00:34:33.680
you know, and I once was going to have a conference and we were going to have a confessional booth
00:34:38.120
so that people could go in there and confess because confession is good for the soul.
00:34:47.900
It's not the end all be all, but it's a wonderful tool to get to the end where we want to be with,
00:34:53.180
we want to be clean before Jesus and before others.
00:35:01.780
Well, you pray, ask the Lord to show you who it might be, or go to a counselor,
00:35:06.480
go to a trusted friend, go to a pastor and say, who would you trust?
00:35:18.880
And you'll eventually discern who that person might be.
00:35:22.700
And it's, and you can ask them, can I use you as a confessional confessor?
00:35:27.400
And they may be a little surprised, but don't just lay it on them without asking them and get preparing them.
00:35:36.480
I want to, um, you, uh, you talk about bitterness in the book.
00:35:44.340
And I think this, um, I think I want to come back to bitterness.
00:36:19.740
He was the one that actually introduced me to your radio show.
00:36:37.040
I don't think people understand emotional abuse.
00:36:47.820
You know, just when you get beat, women or whoever is on the receiving end is convinced,
00:36:55.100
And emotional abuse is even worse because perhaps I'm just imagining that.
00:37:02.280
Well, I kept giving my pieces of myself away just to make him happy.
00:37:07.580
Well, that just means I kept trying to please him.
00:37:09.480
I kept doing everything I could to please him, to make him happy.
00:37:27.860
And I should have just walked away when I realized that none of them liked him.
00:37:39.400
I needed somebody to walk through life with me.
00:37:47.960
And that's what, it was years, years of counseling.
00:37:50.680
Nobody ever said that to me, which you would think.
00:37:58.100
But nobody had ever said that to me, or at least I'd never heard it.
00:38:11.620
And he knew, he'd known the family for a long time, so he knew all the buttons to push.
00:38:33.660
So what did that say to you that you would think, I can't tell my children because, why?
00:38:47.300
You know, the mother's supposed to have it all together.
00:38:58.880
And I was on the, I was on my computer and my assistant was on the phone.
00:39:07.540
And my ears picked up and she said, let me get her on the phone.
00:39:11.040
So my assistant came in and said, there's somebody on the phone for you.
00:39:14.820
And I picked up the phone and they asked me if my husband, what medications my husband was on.
00:39:24.260
And she said, there's been a terrible accident.
00:39:26.560
And your husband, I need to know your husband's medications.
00:39:39.560
But when I pulled in, there was a police officer standing at the emergency door.
00:39:44.240
And he said, we'll take you up to the trauma center.
00:39:46.040
And I walked in, a team of doctors surrounded me.
00:39:50.060
And they said, your husband is on life support.
00:40:02.080
And I must not have heard of, I think it was shock.
00:40:04.380
And I looked up at him and I said, are these life threatening?
00:40:14.920
So I walked down to his room and I saw him and he didn't look recognizable.
00:40:21.500
But Glenn, I had the strongest sense of God's presence.
00:40:25.700
I knew that I was in his hands, that he was going to take care of me.
00:40:30.840
It was months of recovery, months of recovery and really abuse.
00:40:41.620
He was leaving to have his car serviced in Richmond and he had not worked for three years.
00:40:48.140
And I needed him to begin to make money for the family.
00:40:51.660
I couldn't live off what I was making, but he wouldn't do it.
00:40:56.660
And so I said to him again, I said, Greg, you've got to get a job.
00:40:59.900
And he cursed at me with a crude word and walked out the door.
00:41:31.540
So I had to put the mask on and pretend everything was okay and went to work.
00:41:41.160
And my children figured it out, but I hadn't told anybody.
00:41:57.260
I mean, you know, Glenn, I just adore my children.
00:42:12.500
And so when the call came and I heard there was an accident, I thought, now what, God?
00:42:22.400
But I went, I drove down to Richmond and saw him.
00:42:25.700
And again, that overwhelming sense that God was with me and he was going to show me what to do.
00:42:31.520
I quickly learned that he had put me in debt to the tune of $100,000.
00:42:40.140
So he had been running up credit card bills or whatever?
00:42:47.200
I had to sell our home, which he was unhappy about.
00:43:01.960
I mean, what were the, what was the extent of the injury?
00:43:20.580
But he, we got him into rehab and he, you know, we got him patched up and got him home for Christmas.
00:43:27.240
And we went to church together, you know, and I thought, well, maybe this will be a turning point.
00:43:37.220
I had to, I had to move on, pay off the debts and, and move on.
00:44:02.620
How did you not turn, which takes me back a chapter in your book, how does this not turn into bitterness?
00:44:09.160
Glenn, I think bitterness is part of the human experience.
00:44:15.040
And I think we, we do become bitter, but we can't stay there.
00:44:19.160
The Bible says, don't let a root of bitterness dig down deep and spring up and defile other people.
00:44:24.780
I knew I would experience bitterness, but I couldn't live there.
00:44:33.560
You know, I believe firmly that the scripture is the truth of God and that we use that in our minds to renew our minds.
00:44:44.700
Now, tell me, because I think there's a parallel that runs in everybody's life.
00:44:56.540
Anyway, you say, can you think of a person who nearly always finds it, you find particularly hard to forgive you?
00:45:06.400
If you're anything like me, the answer to that question is yes, yes, me.
00:45:10.600
How can we forgive ourselves, especially when we're repeat offenders?
00:45:20.240
It was where you were talking about, no, it's this one.
00:45:32.100
I pretended to be glad to hear from her while my familiar internal script scrolling through my mind.
00:45:40.060
I've tried, but I can hardly bear to interact with her.
00:45:48.500
Did anyone come to your mind when you read that?
00:45:53.680
And as I'm reading that, I think everybody does.
00:45:56.040
And then in your case, extreme, here's a guy who's abusive and you try to do everything you can.
00:46:05.400
Um, you then are with him and you nurse him back to health and he's even worse.
00:46:21.040
Another notch to where you're like, uh, four is ridiculous.
00:46:29.700
You know, I thought, how can I keep making these mistakes?
00:46:32.640
I really doubted if I had known the Lord at all.
00:46:36.560
But the Lord reassured me that I did know him and that I was safe in his arms.
00:46:40.520
And the reason why you kept making these mistakes, tell me about the discovery.
00:46:47.120
After this relationship, um, a, how did you not hold on to bitterness with him?
00:46:58.280
Because that, that's what we're doing in, in all of our lives right now.
00:47:09.720
We're constantly having to stand up and fight for simple things that we shouldn't have to
00:47:18.340
And I'm talking to people on both sides who feel this way politically.
00:47:22.340
And now we're so embittered and we're like, it's not my fault.
00:47:34.560
You know, that's where the Holy Spirit has to come in.
00:47:37.020
And, um, we have to ask the Holy Spirit to intervene and be our helper.
00:47:54.240
Forgiveness, letting go of bitterness is not an overnight thing.
00:47:58.440
It, it may take a lifetime, but we have to be working through that process.
00:48:05.960
But I know for me, and it was, I wrote about it in the book.
00:48:11.560
I had always, when people talked about divorce, I always cringed, you know, at me.
00:48:17.540
And, um, one day I was in Sunday school class and the Sunday school teacher was comparing
00:48:24.800
the Corinth of Paul's day to our culture today.
00:48:28.820
And he asked the question, when did we begin this downward slide?
00:48:32.100
And someone in the back yelled that when we accepted divorce.
00:48:34.600
Well, normally I would go, oh no, but I didn't.
00:48:51.660
There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
00:49:03.340
I remember, I don't remember the specific time like you, but I remember conversion.
00:49:17.420
And then one day, three, four years later, I realized, wow, I only want to do good.
00:49:35.720
When we open ourselves up for it, God will see that it happens.
00:49:42.560
And using the scriptures, renewing my mind, that I didn't want to be a bitter person.
00:49:47.800
I've seen bitter people, and they're not pretty.
00:49:52.560
I wanted to have the Holy Spirit fill my life and give me peace and contentment and courage.
00:50:02.220
You, well, first, let's talk about when that person said to you, you were abandoned.
00:50:21.400
Because it's absolutely right there in front of your face.
00:50:25.300
That's why you were staying with these bad guys, because.
00:50:29.900
Yeah, you know they'll leave, and then who am I?
00:50:36.280
He was not conversant by the time I discovered this.
00:50:39.220
But, of course, he's hearing our conversation now, so he knows.
00:50:45.420
But he said in his memoirs, you know, I'm sure that my absences had a profound effect on my children.
00:50:53.500
I'm telling my story, not my sibling's story, because they reacted differently than I did.
00:50:58.100
But I just, I was grateful that that, I finally discovered my core issue.
00:51:07.320
You know, I use Samson as an illustration in the book.
00:51:19.940
He's listed in Hebrews 11, the chapter of faith.
00:51:32.840
I mean, Samson was really sort of a yucky character.
00:51:50.280
Except you kind of want to see those people who have done wrong intentionally.
00:52:01.180
I know I have, I have, uh, in my worst times, uh, I haven't had these for a while, but in
00:52:09.280
my worst times when I feel like I've done everything and I'm just fighting the world and, and I'm
00:52:28.380
I've heard this several times in my prayers, but he has been very clear and almost stern
00:52:35.000
with me on the way we have a very different relationship, um, but almost stern, these are
00:52:45.260
These are enemies of mine and I will deal with them in my time.
00:52:55.220
And his way of dealing with them may not be the way I would deal with it.
00:53:07.700
And we're so, uh, we're self-hating egomaniacs in the quiet of night.
00:53:21.480
And, but the, the rest of it is either we're hiding that wound or we actually believe I
00:53:37.620
We have to renew our mind with the scriptures because we, we will be safe, self-hating, but
00:53:42.160
we know that God loves us totally and completely and unconditionally.
00:53:48.020
You know, I told the story at the funeral where my father accepted me home after the second
00:53:56.000
And that showed me what God was like, because that's what God does for us.
00:54:07.980
I don't know if, I don't know if, I don't know because I met him towards the end.
00:54:13.900
And, um, so I didn't, I didn't see the fire, you know, years of fire.
00:54:26.220
And he had a special place in his heart for you, Glenn.
00:54:38.500
So at peace, you know, he was, he was not troubled.
00:54:48.560
And it was, he said to me one point, he said, cause I'm, I was like, Billy, I'm trying.
00:54:56.580
I mean, it's, it's not loud enough sometimes and I'm trying and I don't know what I'm doing
00:55:03.880
And he looked at me and he said, I'm not afraid to die.
00:55:07.380
And it was, I can, I mean, I can see his eyes when I say that we were so close and he held
00:55:15.860
my hand and, um, he said, I have screwed so much up.
00:55:36.720
I tried and I know all my shortcomings will be covered.
00:55:45.320
And he trusted that with every fiber of his being, that the blood of Jesus washes it all
00:55:51.260
Tell me what happened when you told your children about the fourth marriage.
00:56:01.580
And there was nothing that you had in your head.
00:56:07.040
And I tell the story in the book where I asked their forgiveness.
00:56:09.820
I had to go to each child and say, will you forgive me?
00:56:12.520
And they said, oh, mom, you don't need to ask us for your forgiveness.
00:56:18.700
And so I looked each one of them in the eye and I asked their forgiveness.
00:56:33.900
I just needed to hear it from them because I had done so much damage.
00:56:42.540
Do you think if you didn't have their voices recorded by your eyes and ears,
00:56:49.420
and you would have known it anyway that they forgave you,
00:56:54.140
but do you think at all that would have been handing a tool to the adversary
00:57:03.600
I think when we ask for forgiveness, we take the tools away from him.
00:57:14.560
There's nothing like living in the bright light, you know?
00:57:22.980
and they're hard in every family and every spouse,
00:58:18.220
Even when you open everything up, you think you're good.
00:58:20.620
And what's nice is you get to a point where you're like,
00:58:31.480
And the enemy will try to bring our emotions back
00:58:55.060
And that's both good emotions and bad emotions.
00:59:04.300
I think they were probably standing on tiptoe yelling,
00:59:25.100
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