The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 77 ｜ Gender ISN'T Fluid： Debunking Sexual Orientation Lies With Science ｜ Dr. Debra Soh

00:00:00.000 Today, I want to ask the question, what is truth? What is reality? I think that's what we're going

00:00:05.680 to talk about today. The questions are not easy to answer anymore because of the system that

00:00:12.340 radical progressives have taken, and we don't have a concept of truth anymore. There's more

00:00:18.960 controversial questions to answer these days, like what is gender? What is the truth on gender?

00:00:23.820 What does it mean for a man to be a man or a woman to be a woman? Is gender concrete or is it fluid?

00:00:29.560 I thought the idea was if you're gay, you were born that way. But now, no. These questions have

00:00:37.220 been buzzing around campuses for a few decades, and now they are in the real world and they are

00:00:43.160 everywhere. These ideas that men aren't really men and men can be women. Those with a cervix should

00:00:52.240 have a test. Wait a minute. That would be a woman, right? No, can't say that. All of these ideas have

00:00:59.120 become mainstream thanks to a small group of bullies, quite frankly, who mostly gather online,

00:01:04.500 or at least they used to. And most people are too afraid to stop the bullying. The heroes of the

00:01:11.120 mattingly heated culture that surrounds us are the people who are willing to stand up to those bullies

00:01:17.040 and stop those bullies. And they are superheroes, but actually they're not. They're just regular people

00:01:22.900 who are like, I am not going there with you. Dr. Deborah So is one. She used to have an ordinary

00:01:28.520 life until she said, no, I'm not going to say those things. She had a life uncomplicated by the

00:01:34.760 vitriol of total strangers who threaten her and harass her, eager to destroy her any way and every

00:01:40.800 way they possibly can. And that's the life she lives now. For Deborah So, the fortuitous event,

00:01:47.200 the moment that changed everything was a furry convention in Toronto. Furry. For the uninitiated,

00:01:53.820 I learned the last time Deborah was here, that furries are people who dress in animal costumes

00:01:58.420 for recreational reasons. Okay. She wrote about the experience. Harper's Magazine picked it up.

00:02:04.480 By then, the Marxist invasion of academia ramped up and then exploded into society as a whole. As an

00:02:11.400 academic, she felt threatened by the activists in academia. There are people dressing up as animals.

00:02:17.200 What is the controversy here? They were everywhere suddenly, even in the hard sciences,

00:02:22.900 which are supposed to be immune to that kind of nonsense. What's at risk for a scientist or an

00:02:28.920 academic who wants to challenge the narratives in society? Academics, even in the hard science,

00:02:35.680 increasingly feel threatened by activists who don't want any evidence to contradict their narrative.

00:02:41.640 Who are these people? Deborah didn't see the point of being in a field where she couldn't pursue

00:02:45.800 the truth. And so she left because she couldn't stay quiet either. She just refused to let herself

00:02:51.580 be bullied. After 11 years as an academic, she left academia. She said it was the best decision she

00:02:57.540 ever made. She loves research. She keeps in touch with her former colleagues and keeps up with academic

00:03:03.320 advancements. But it's not the same. Not too long ago, she was a humble Canadian sex researcher with

00:03:09.640 aspirations of running her own lab one day. That would never happen now. This is the era of social

00:03:15.420 constructs and fluid genders and transgender flags being marched through the streets. The science of

00:03:20.600 sex has been politicized. And Deborah So wasn't on the right side. She wasn't having any of it. She was on

00:03:27.280 the side of truth. So she found herself catapulted into a culture war. She wasn't fighting on the side

00:03:32.860 she'd assumed she'd always been fighting for. Now as a sexologist, a neuroscientist, a journalist,

00:03:39.240 and a columnist, she is caught in the tangle of politics, sex, free speech, academia, science,

00:03:46.160 all of which are her specialities. She's fighting her own people, or at least they used to be before

00:03:51.920 George Orwell's 1984 became a reality before statements like men are women and women are different

00:04:00.160 and children shouldn't be sexualized. Before those things became controversial. Back when truth was

00:04:06.240 indisputable and gender came in two variations, and you didn't really get to choose. She tries to be

00:04:12.120 optimistic and thinks that we'll come back from it. I admire that in her. The science will survive.

00:04:20.000 That reason will emerge unscathed. It gets harder to believe that every day, but she does believe it.

00:04:27.020 She's the perfect person to talk to during these incredibly Orwellian times. The name of her

00:04:32.980 podcast is literally Wrong Think, a concept right out of 1984. The last time she was here,

00:04:39.020 she educated me on the furry culture, and we debated the moral implications of sex robots.

00:04:44.780 There's no telling what we'll end up with on this podcast. Welcome, Dr. Deborah So.

00:04:57.020 So, doctor, I come to you as a patient, and I tell you I'm a 56-year-old man,

00:05:10.380 but I have been convinced forever that I am actually a woman. What advice do you give me?

00:05:18.940 Well, I should start by saying I'm not a clinician. I don't do clinical work anymore.

00:05:22.740 But what I think good clinical practice would suggest would be to ask you what makes you feel

00:05:29.540 that way and what's going on in your life currently that may be leading to you wanting to tell me these

00:05:35.000 things. But if I say, you know, I felt I've always felt this way. I've always just felt like I was more

00:05:42.820 of a woman rather than a man. And I'm just I just have the guts to do it now because the rest of society

00:05:50.620 is is giving me affirmation that yes, indeed, I am a woman.

00:05:57.420 Well, in which case, I think a good clinician would try to see whether what you're saying is

00:06:01.260 actually true. Because in some cases, I think when people look back at their own history,

00:06:06.200 especially when it comes to something like gender nowadays, it's very easy for them to reinterpret

00:06:11.080 their own history in a way that fits the current narrative, because that's what trans activism is

00:06:16.100 pushing. But I think in the larger picture, what what is really troublesome is the fact that

00:06:21.240 clinicians can't even do that in terms of doing a proper assessment with a patient to see whether

00:06:27.380 transitioning would actually be helpful to them. Nowadays, really, a clinician has no choice but to

00:06:31.920 say, if you feel this way, so if you were to come to me, and I were I were a clinician, I would have to

00:06:36.920 affirm you and help facilitate your transition without asking you any sort of questions.

00:06:41.820 So I just saw a, by the way, hi, it's good to see.

00:06:47.460 Hi, time is going so fast.

00:06:50.040 I know it has. I just saw a, what was it from the CDC? And it said those with a cervix should have

00:07:01.780 an exam. And I thought, well, there's, there's only one group of people with a cervix, and that's women.

00:07:08.940 And I was stunned at the fact that now you can't say women should have their cervix checked, you have to

00:07:19.160 say those with a cervix. There's, am I wrong? There, I mean, we're not doing cervix transplants, are we?

00:07:27.100 Well, there's a double standard, too, because news organizations, not all of them, but I've been seeing this

00:07:32.120 trend. And people have been very critical of this. What they will not use terms like women have a

00:07:38.080 cervix, but they'll say something like men's semen. There's no issue in terms of referring to men when it

00:07:43.840 comes to their anatomy or anything that has to do with their bodily functions. And so I have no issue

00:07:50.120 referring to trans people using the pronouns they want, I will consider trans women to be women. However,

00:07:55.240 I do think there are differences between trans women and women who were born women, and that

00:08:00.180 acknowledging those differences is not transphobic. And I think also to say that women have a cervix,

00:08:06.760 I don't think that should be considered transphobic either. I understand the concern because I think

00:08:11.220 some trans activists feel and trans activists don't speak for all trans people. But I think some

00:08:16.780 activists get upset by this because they feel it's not fully inclusive to say that women have a cervix

00:08:22.680 because trans women do not have a cervix. So by saying so, you're essentially excluding them from

00:08:27.460 the category of woman. But we're we're ending all I mean, this is the name of the book, the end of gender.

00:08:34.480 And you are getting a lot of pushback on this, because I think that is the goal to end gender.

00:08:45.320 And, you know, you were just on with Joe Rogan, and they're trying to get that podcast

00:08:50.040 delisted. So you can be even more depersoned. And people won't hear won't won't hear what you have

00:08:59.640 to say. But that is the goal, isn't it to end gender? Well, so I should clarify the title,

00:09:05.960 I chose the title, the end of gender, to refer to the fact that science denial and denial of biology,

00:09:11.800 and all of this misinformation that's currently being perpetuated in our society pretty much

00:09:16.700 everywhere. I mean, even by medical organizations and scientific organizations. Now, this is really

00:09:22.080 doing us a disservice. And this is leading us to have a failure of an accurate understanding of

00:09:26.860 gender. So I want to clarify that that's what the title is referring to, because I think on the surface,

00:09:31.500 it can sound as though I'm saying, gender is whatever you want it to be, right? That very far,

00:09:36.420 far left progressive view. And I still consider myself to be liberal, but I'm definitely not extreme

00:09:41.080 left to say that gender is whatever you want it to be. It's purely self identification.

00:09:45.140 There is no tethering to reality. Your gender can change multiple times a day, all the all these

00:09:51.240 ridiculous things that people are saying. And, and that as a society, we are almost being forced

00:09:56.060 to comply with because there is so much science denial that people don't actually know what's

00:10:00.720 true anymore. So in the book, I do I go through nine different myths, and I can talk about what those

00:10:06.080 are if you'd like. And, and I offer scientific research to demonstrate why those myths are not

00:10:11.260 true so that people can really fight back against this. So I do want to go through some of the myths,

00:10:17.560 some of the some of them that I found really fascinating, your explanation of gender is a

00:10:23.020 social construct. Explain that concept.

00:10:30.640 So it's very trendy, I wouldn't say it's trendy anymore. It's just taken for granted. People believe

00:10:36.280 people say that gender is a social construct, even though that's completely not true. And then from

00:10:40.700 that, it's spread now to gender is a spectrum, which is gender is not a spectrum. And also that

00:10:45.840 biological sex and and is a spectrum and socially constructed, which is not physically possible.

00:10:50.660 So the idea that gender is a social construct, this means that the way we experience our gender

00:10:58.720 associated gender roles are due to socialization in society, they're due to media, it's due to messaging

00:11:05.260 that we receive when we are young. That's not true. Gender is very much biological. And this

00:11:11.180 has been demonstrated in a number of research areas, all of the research literature is very

00:11:15.860 consistent. And last time I sat down with you, we talked about the ways in which scientists are

00:11:22.120 really denying these facts and that new research is actually coming out. The new research that is

00:11:28.400 coming out is very much politically motivated in saying that there are no biologically based

00:11:34.620 differences in the brain between men and women. And gender is something that we learn. So and that

00:11:41.620 basically any sex differences we do see between men and women are due to socialization or sexism.

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00:13:14.140 So then what is the, why is this happening? What is the, explain the mind of somebody who's pushing this,

00:13:26.220 who knows what they're doing. Explain this in a good way. What, what is their, what is their noble attempt

00:13:32.860 here? My sense is that they think they're helping to move society forward, that this is positive for

00:13:40.540 women. And I think also more broadly for people who maybe are gender nonconforming, people who are

00:13:45.820 gender dysphoric. So with all of the nonsense about gender that's being pushed, I think that when I,

00:13:50.620 when I see them speak or when I talk to these individuals who are pushing these claims,

00:13:54.780 they say it's because they think it's going to help people be more comfortable in who they are and help

00:13:59.660 them reach their full potential, not being held back by gender stereotypes. But I say we can do that.

00:14:04.820 We don't have to deny what the science says around gender or deny that it is biologically based.

00:14:09.240 And I think for some people, especially those who are in academia and who are pushing this,

00:14:14.240 it is very lucrative. It's helpful to their careers and they get a lot of positive praise. And I think

00:14:22.400 positive opportunities that come from it. I mean, you mentioned some of the things I've had to

00:14:26.760 experience since this book came out only three days ago and it's, it's not, you know, it's not for

00:14:31.720 everyone. So it's a much easier path for people to simply say, if this is what I need to say to be

00:14:36.520 liked and to get certain opportunities and move ahead in my career, then that's what they're going

00:14:41.180 to do.

00:14:42.900 Do you think they believe it or they choose to believe it?

00:14:46.740 It's probably a mix. I think some people actually believe it because when you are in

00:14:52.100 particular circles in academia, there is not, it's, it is an echo chamber. I think for some

00:14:57.180 academics and definitely not all, but I would say there isn't a pushback. They talk to their

00:15:01.860 friends, they talk to their colleagues in the department and they all think the same. So

00:15:06.060 they have no opportunity to really question whether they are actually, whether their beliefs

00:15:12.580 actually make sense.

00:15:14.400 So, but doesn't this, I mean, this, this is the thing that bothers me so much about where

00:15:19.800 science has gone. They have become the church of the dark ages, um, to where they're all talking

00:15:25.520 among themselves and they all know what is true and they will demonize and destroy anybody

00:15:32.400 who goes against the doctrine. Uh, how do they not, how do people of science not see that

00:15:42.140 squashing others who disagree, uh, is a really bad idea?

00:15:48.720 Well, I think many of the people who are fighting, who are anti-science are not the actual scientists.

00:15:54.360 There are, there's definitely a contingent growing within the academic sciences of people who are

00:15:59.320 fully invested in social justice. I do have a chapter in the book that's dedicated to discussing

00:16:04.540 why social justice and activism in academia and specifically in sexology, which is my former

00:16:10.400 field, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, why this is extremely harmful. But I think

00:16:16.000 for the most part, it's just, they don't understand the scientific method. They have no respect for it.

00:16:21.800 And so they have no issue in tearing it down.

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00:18:31.800 You talk about gender fluidity, um, which, and I know you address this, um, in the book, but I'd like you

00:18:41.560 to, to talk about, um, I think a lot of people are confused because the argument was if you're gay,

00:18:50.940 you're born that way. Okay. Um, but now that's not the message. Now you can just choose to be gay.

00:18:59.580 And the argument was you can't choose. So which is it? And, and what happened here on, on the fluidity

00:19:10.320 and just, it's your choice. Sexual orientation is definitely biological. And I do have a chapter

00:19:17.580 also in the book dedicated to discussing why that is. Um, so then, yeah, as you mentioned more recently,

00:19:23.060 there has been this switch now to say that sexual orientation is fluid, that it can be changed.

00:19:28.420 I think this is part of a larger movement just to completely denigrate biology and to say that if

00:19:34.880 we are going to be truly free, we should be able to make our choices in every aspect of our lives,

00:19:39.620 including something like sexual orientation. Me personally, I have no issue if, if sexual

00:19:44.360 orientation were a choice and people chose to have same sex partners, I think that's totally

00:19:49.320 acceptable. My issue is that people are now activists are intentionally denying what science

00:19:54.440 says because it doesn't fit their agenda and they have a very specific agenda. So they're willing

00:19:58.640 to basically throw aside everything. I mean, all, all of the research literature to date has shown that,

00:20:03.520 that sexual orientation is very much innate. And this is something that was, you know, heralded by

00:20:09.040 the gay rights movement. And I'm very much in support of gay rights to say they're born this way.

00:20:14.640 So tell me about the, tell me the, tell me the neuroscience behind being gay.

00:20:23.000 So it has to do with exposure to prenatal hormones. So in the womb, a greater exposure

00:20:30.820 to testosterone is associated with being attracted to females. So most males are exposed to higher

00:20:39.140 levels of testosterone and they are attracted to females when they're born. And the higher exposure is

00:20:44.580 also associated with male typical activities. Um, and so if you have, if you have someone who is

00:20:50.320 attracted to, uh, say a gay man would be on average exposed to lower levels of testosterone

00:20:57.820 and conversely, lesbian women are likely exposed to on average higher levels of testosterone.

00:21:04.740 Okay. So, um, then that is the evidence that everybody, everybody was looking for the gene,

00:21:11.600 the gay gene, you know, this is years and years ago. Um, but this is the evidence that you are born

00:21:18.340 that way, which makes the argument that, you know, it's, it's almost like, uh, with, you know,

00:21:25.340 Martin Luther King. Okay. You, you've convinced everybody, I think, uh, that Martin Luther King was

00:21:31.780 right. But now Martin Luther King is, you'll have to throw him out, you know, because Martin Luther King

00:21:40.420 is, was for nonviolence. And so we got to throw him out. He's no longer an icon of the,

00:21:46.580 the Uber left. What are we supposed to believe? What are we supposed, I mean, is there, is there

00:21:53.400 anything that's not fluid? Does this keep changing? And what is it going to change to next?

00:22:00.640 Well, the scary thing is I would say, trust the scientists and trust the science as it comes out.

00:22:05.160 If new studies came out showing something different, if, if studies came out that actually

00:22:09.880 demonstrated that sexual orientation is something that can change over time, or that gender is

00:22:14.100 something that changes by the day or by the hour, I, I would say most people are general sense,

00:22:19.140 internal sense of who we are with regards to how masculine or feminine we feel probably does

00:22:23.300 fluctuate to some degree, but it's not something that necessitates completely changing what the

00:22:28.900 definition of gender is. And, and gender fluidity, again, it's just, it's, we can talk about how

00:22:34.100 gender is binary because it is for 99% of us are biological sex and biological sex is determined

00:22:40.120 by whether you produce sperm or eggs. So there, there's no in between there. So gender is not a

00:22:46.040 spectrum. You're talking about science and science that is, is verifiable. We're not talking about

00:22:53.220 science anymore. And I don't know if I buy any, yeah. And I don't know if I believe any scientists

00:22:59.040 anymore on so many things because they're rewarded for giving the, uh, the correct response. Now they're

00:23:07.940 rewarded financially. They're rewarded, um, uh, you know, with, with fame and, and peace and love and

00:23:15.340 everything else because they're on the right side. So do we even trust science anymore? How do we trust

00:23:21.360 science? That's a very good question. I mean, it is a really sad time and it's a scary time. I think

00:23:27.520 part of it too comes from, you know, in the book, I interviewed Jonathan Haidt and he talked about how

00:23:31.780 there is definitely a bias in terms of the ratio of liberals to conservatives in academia. And

00:23:37.040 there's actually for every conservative, there's 36 liberals, which is a very astounding gap. And I

00:23:42.360 think that says a lot in terms of what we see coming out. And fortunately that does influence

00:23:47.240 the science that's being produced. I think a good scientist is aware of their biases because we're

00:23:52.800 human beings. We all have biases. That's very normal. But as a scientist, your job is to be able to

00:23:57.520 put that aside, be aware of what your biases are and design your studies in a way that you're

00:24:02.000 going to get as close as possible to what the truth is, not influenced by your own particular values.

00:24:08.320 There was a story that I read today. Um, gosh, I think it came out of California. It was a California

00:24:16.080 law, uh, that states that if you're a clinic and you give hormones to children to, to help them in

00:24:24.960 their transition of gender, you'll get state grants. And I thought, this is one of the most evil things

00:24:33.000 I've ever seen. You're, you're saying I'm going to reward you with cash. If you give these hormones

00:24:41.840 to children, which I think is wrong in the first place, look, whatever you want to do with yourself

00:24:47.200 later. Fine. But as a child, no, uh, what, what, what do you think the ramifications are of that law

00:24:55.840 in California?

00:24:57.800 I'd be curious also to see how widely that news gets spread because I'm willing to bet that it

00:25:03.020 probably, uh, did you see it reported among many places? I find whenever it's something like that,

00:25:08.440 that's, that's a little bit critical. It doesn't get spread very much. People don't hear about it.

00:25:12.420 Uh, so how do you mean critical? It was, it was just a, it was a report on a new law.

00:25:20.860 Okay. So I, because I find anything, I think most people would look at something like that and say,

00:25:25.100 well, now there is a conflict of interest, right? We can't really, we can't trust that necessarily

00:25:31.740 when these interventions are being implemented, that they are necessarily in the best, uh, course for

00:25:41.180 these children. I'm not saying that's a case for all people who are, who are prescribing them,

00:25:45.440 but, uh, in terms of, yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't agree with, I've been very, very critical of,

00:25:52.240 of childhood transitioning and all of the research shows that the vast majority of these children

00:25:57.000 will outgrow their feelings of gender dysphoria by puberty. They're more likely to grow up to be gay

00:26:01.860 than be transgender in adulthood. So it doesn't make sense to be putting them down the path of

00:26:07.760 transition. I think like you, when, when someone reaches adulthood, if that's what they choose,

00:26:12.060 that's their business. But for children, especially it's anti-science, it's anti-science to say that

00:26:17.420 these children should be transitioning. Uh, how do you mean anti-science that they,

00:26:23.180 why is that anti-science? Well, if all of the scientific research shows that most kids will

00:26:28.600 grow comfortable in the body that they were given to say that they should, you know, go down the path

00:26:34.360 of transitioning to the opposite sex at increasingly young ages. Uh, I've seen numbers that show that

00:26:40.280 children as young as age three are being referred to gender clinics, which to me is wholly inappropriate.

00:26:47.480 So you've been called, uh, transphobic and all kinds of, all kinds of names, um, because of your view,

00:26:58.520 but yet you started the interview saying, uh, you will call, uh, a trans woman, a woman, or who used

00:27:09.060 to be a man as a woman, you will claim that they are a woman. I don't feel comfortable doing that

00:27:17.260 because I don't think, I mean, you just don't have the parts and you, you also don't have, I mean,

00:27:23.360 to say that, do I check you for prostate cancer? You know what I mean? Uh, I mean, it, it's just

00:27:29.780 become so, uh, meat grinder that I think it can become dangerous. Um, why are you under attack for

00:27:39.580 what you say about transgenderism? If you're willing to say, yeah, that man is now a woman.

00:27:46.420 Well, I, I agree with you in the context of a trans woman. We, this is why I think it's important

00:27:51.940 to be able to point out that there are some differences because for trans women, they do

00:27:55.240 run the risk of potentially having prostate cancer and they need to be checked for that.

00:27:59.720 And to pretend that, that they are no different from women who are born women actually does a

00:28:04.400 disservice to trans people. So I think the reason, I mean, I, it's hard for me to know exactly why

00:28:09.900 people come after me, but my sense is because I do say these things that are not popular and that

00:28:15.020 I don't completely, I'm not completely a hundred percent on board with the transgender ideology and

00:28:21.180 that's being pushed. And I am critical again of childhood transitioning, which is a big no-no if

00:28:25.820 you're supposed to be a trans ally. So, I mean, I would say I am in support of trans rights, but I

00:28:30.180 don't, I guess I don't go far enough in that direction. So I, I think anyone who really criticizes

00:28:36.120 any aspect of trans ideology gets labeled hateful, gets called transphobic, is, is deemed the enemy.

00:28:43.520 It's really about pushing one very specific message. And if you deviate from that in any way,

00:28:49.140 then you become the enemy. So where would I be on the spectrum? Um, when I first saw, um, uh, Bruce

00:28:59.860 Jenner say, I've lived this secret my whole life and I've been torn apart my whole life. I immediately

00:29:08.620 felt compassion for him. And, and if he wants, if it makes him feel better to live as a woman,

00:29:17.780 what am I, who am I to say anything other than I can't imagine living your whole life feeling that

00:29:26.840 way, the torture, his life must've been, and I don't want anything but happiness for him. Um,

00:29:34.220 however, that doesn't, uh, it doesn't take science out of it now. I mean, there are certain things

00:29:41.540 scientifically that you, you, you are not a woman, but if you want to live that way, that's fine.

00:29:48.260 That's fine. Why is that so hateful? Why is that an opinion that, um, is so damning to the left?

00:29:59.440 I would say also most trans people would feel the same way. They, there's, they just want to

00:30:03.720 transition and get on with their life. They don't want people making a big fuss about it. And in fact,

00:30:08.540 some of them have said to me, the things that trans activists advocate for are not things that

00:30:13.480 I would have ever asked for. And they're actually quite mortified at the fact that some trans activists

00:30:17.840 and their allies. So certain people who are not transgender, but who have decided to take on the

00:30:22.460 trans fight for their own reasons. Um, you know, trans people are saying they don't speak for us.

00:30:29.180 So I think part of it is that because of all of the attention that trans activists get,

00:30:35.380 they get a lot of praise as well. And they get a lot of attention. I think it's about

00:30:39.320 a very specific, I would call it a power grab. I mean, it's really at the end of the day,

00:30:44.460 it's about individuals wanting to get more accolades for themselves. And so anyone who gets

00:30:50.880 in the way, they won't stand for it. So I'm, I'm, I'm struck by something that happens with, uh,

00:30:57.120 social justice warriors, uh, seemingly on all fronts is, uh, aunt Jemima was a real person.

00:31:06.880 She, um, had a real life, born a slave, became very, very popular, um, in person, um, uh, at the

00:31:17.140 Chicago world's fair. She lived a great life. Her family was a little upset that she was just erased.

00:31:23.360 Um, the guy who's cream of wheat, um, he's just been erased. He was a successful black man,

00:31:31.180 uh, as well and, and had his, his own restaurant and that's why he was selected. Um, uh, and,

00:31:38.960 and yet aunt Jemima has a rating of, I think it's 199, 200 is a perfect score with whites and Jemima

00:31:48.060 syrup. We've got about 70% or 70, a score of 70 for blacks and Jemima syrup syrup, got a score of

00:31:56.500 199. I think it's a bunch of white people that said, Oh, this is horrible. Let's take this away.

00:32:05.120 And I see this happening everywhere where it's a small group of people that, you know, Antifa

00:32:12.280 marching in the streets and burning things down when you have, when you have blacks on the sidelines

00:32:17.460 going, this isn't the, this is not, it has nothing to do with us. How big is this group that seems to

00:32:24.540 just want to tell everyone we're here to protect you. Uh, and we're here to tell you what you really

00:32:32.900 need and what you really want. I would, I would say it's definitely a vocal minority. There are some

00:32:40.380 people who definitely get a lot of airtime. There are certain names that are known in terms of who

00:32:45.660 the media turns to when they want an opinion about something when it comes to trans issues.

00:32:51.080 Um, but yeah, like I said, they don't speak for the community. And I think I, you know,

00:32:55.780 trans people are lovely people. They're no different from the rest of us. And I feel bad for them for the

00:32:59.840 fact that there are some people in that community. I would say even among trans activists themselves,

00:33:04.560 not all of them are horrifically aggressive and, and awful. Some of them are actually quite

00:33:09.440 pleasant when you do interact with them. So it's really, again, about just, I think some people

00:33:14.260 have their own issues and they're latching onto this cause as a way to make themselves feel better

00:33:19.460 or feel more whole. It is, um, it's remarkable how this, this group of people, um, have, uh, have just

00:33:32.220 latched on to all of these causes and, and, um, and don't seem to really embrace the mainstream or

00:33:40.140 even, uh, the smaller minority groups that they claim to be helping. Um, it's, uh, there's something

00:33:49.040 deeply disturbing by that behavior, um, because they're the, the, in many cases acting out in violence

00:33:58.000 or acting, acting out in destroying people's lives, um, because they think they have a right to,

00:34:04.240 and I, I just don't, I don't understand that in the West. I, I don't, I just, I haven't seen it

00:34:10.040 except for, you know, communists and Nazis, but maybe that's who we're fighting. I don't know anymore.

00:34:14.700 Um, you, um, uh, you have been outspoken on the, um, the big things in society, but I am,

00:34:26.340 I am concerned. And I know you address this about, um, women acting like men and dating,

00:34:33.540 et cetera, et cetera. I'd like to talk about the things that actually are influencing and what's

00:34:40.800 coming in the future. What do you see over the horizon that's actually going to impact the regular

00:34:48.700 person? Um, and how some of the stuff that is being taught right now is going to impact our kids

00:34:57.020 as they grow up, go to college and what their point of view is going to be. What, what's coming?

00:35:04.520 Can you do that? Yes. I was just going to say, actually going to your last point, I wanted to

00:35:09.400 mention, there's a study that I did talk about in the book that showed that political correctness

00:35:13.260 is not actually something that ethnic minorities like, they actually think it's gone too far.

00:35:17.740 And it is actually very wealthy, well-educated white people who are pushing this. So again,

00:35:23.760 it speaks to, you know, do you actually care about the group you claim to be speaking for? Or is it

00:35:28.180 really just about you and making you feel better about yourself? But in terms of your...

00:35:33.140 Hang on just a sec. Before you go there, I think it is, I mean, I find it,

00:35:36.840 I find it incredibly racist, um, you know, the way they are, are fighting and basically,

00:35:44.900 basically saying, look, these poor people over here, we as white people have to jump in and save

00:35:52.160 them. What are you saying about that group of people? You're, you're, you're immediately setting

00:35:59.180 up the very system that you say you're trying to destroy. It is, it's just so remarkably,

00:36:05.220 they think because we aren't white that we're not capable of taking care of ourselves. That's

00:36:10.720 what it comes across to me as I've, it's very worrisome to me because I feel like this conversation

00:36:15.840 of race, of course, it's important to be against racism. Of course I'm against racism, but this is

00:36:21.620 not what it's about anymore. And I feel like it's about people that they don't, that there's such an

00:36:27.600 obsession with race now that I think it's actually going to be more divisive and it's actually going

00:36:31.620 to make us not a cohesive society. Uh, I don't think it is about race. I think it is about just

00:36:39.160 dividing us. It's very, um, um, you know, Middle Eastern, I guess in its, in its thinking that's a,

00:36:50.040 that's the wrong term for it. But what, how we, how we are being divided is exactly how the Middle East

00:36:57.380 divides itself, uh, as a tool, I think. Um, and it's not about race because you're Asian.

00:37:05.180 Where, where, where's anybody saying anything about Asians? I mean, the Asian, the anti-Asian bias

00:37:12.760 in school. Yeah. And, and you're not, uh, you know, the whites are supposed to be so superior,

00:37:23.140 really? Cause, uh, I mean, I, you know, talking in a, in a very broad term, I'm not going to put my

00:37:31.220 kids up against, uh, a real Asian family that has the real Asian roots, uh, to them because they're,

00:37:39.560 they, they just, they work differently. They think differently. The family is different.

00:37:44.400 Where is anybody saying that, you know, uh, Asians are being, uh, you know, discriminated against

00:37:53.520 because they are, they are being discriminated against in the opposite way.

00:37:59.320 It, because it doesn't fit the narrative. And the thing is, I don't think it's anything inherent to us

00:38:03.760 as a racial group or as a racial category. I think, like you said, it's hard work. It's an emphasis on

00:38:08.900 education. Yeah. And so these are things that anyone, you know, if you are, if you strive to be

00:38:13.220 successful, anyone can achieve these things. It's not, it's not particular to our race. So I don't

00:38:18.840 see why people can't take the positives from that instead of essentially punishing Asian people for

00:38:23.780 doing well. Yeah. You're the Asian people. And again, generalization, but ones that are actually

00:38:31.040 living the culture, respect the family, they respect education. They, they respect all the things

00:38:37.300 that make you into a successful individual or a successful family or group. Um, and the opposite,

00:38:45.360 I'm sure you saw what the Smithsonian put out, um, about the white culture. My gosh, that's,

00:38:52.180 that's not white. That's a successful culture. I know. I saw that. And I thought of way Asians,

00:38:58.580 we really are white, I guess then. Yeah. I saw that. And I thought I wouldn't,

00:39:03.440 I would expect something like that to be said by the Klan that could have been issued by the Klan.

00:39:10.980 And we all would have went, wow, that's racist. No, that's coming from the federal government now.

00:39:18.380 Yeah. But going to your question about how this is going to affect children and this,

00:39:22.180 just the gender ideology, because this is targeting kids in school. It's actually in their curriculum,

00:39:28.360 which is the most disturbing thing because I have parents telling me all the time about what their

00:39:31.960 kids are being taught in school. It's not fact-based. I mean, they're being taught things

00:39:35.880 like, again, gender is a social construct that it's due to traditional stereotypes that some people

00:39:40.880 identify as both genders or neither. There are no such thing as boys and girls. And it's very

00:39:46.380 confusing to children. And I think so for these kids who are being raised on this, they're going to

00:39:52.880 see that the real world does not, is not in alignment with what they were told. And I think it's going

00:39:59.140 to be very disorienting for them. So the book I do, I did write it actually as a resource for parents

00:40:05.060 and it is child-friendly in that there's no swearing. Any reference to sex is very clinical

00:40:09.820 and anatomical. So it's something that you could give to your children if you want a resource to

00:40:15.240 combat what they're being taught in school. And as well, the audio book I think would be very good

00:40:19.340 if you want to listen to it in the car with your family. I was really inspired by many colleagues who

00:40:24.480 reached out to me saying, you know, they have no way to fight back against this because when they

00:40:28.980 meet with the administration at their kids' schools, those people will say the quote-unquote

00:40:34.760 newest science shows that gender is fluid. And my colleagues are saying, well, I have no way of

00:40:41.560 fighting back against that because I don't know what studies to bring up or what I can say. So I have

00:40:46.840 all that in the book to help them. And then in another related area, another chapter is about sex and

00:40:52.180 dating. And I think especially for young women and men who are trying to navigate

00:40:56.140 romantic relationships and dating, if they're being told that men and women are the same or

00:41:00.740 that something like evolutionary psychology is sexist, well, the way that your relationship is

00:41:05.880 going to play out is not going to be the same in terms of what your expectations are. And I don't

00:41:10.520 think that's, I think again, people are going to be very disappointed and very confused because they

00:41:14.740 won't understand what's in front of them.

00:41:18.760 To explain evolutionary, what'd you say, psychology?

00:41:24.200 Psychology. Yeah. So it's just the idea that our-

00:41:26.820 Yes. Explain that.

00:41:28.400 So our behavior, and especially in the book, in terms of what I'm referring to, our reproductive

00:41:32.840 behavior, how we approach relationships and even interactions with the other opposite sex,

00:41:38.440 if you're straight, stems from a very long history that's been beneficial to us in terms of

00:41:43.300 procreating. So some people will argue, well, you know, we have birth control and this is outdated,

00:41:49.720 but birth control has only really been around for 50, 60 years. So that's not enough time to

00:41:54.620 override millions upon millions of years of evolution. And I think it's especially for,

00:42:00.660 I think for young women who feel that they are empowered and they're independent. I mean,

00:42:05.300 I write in the book about how I used to be very feminist. I still am in favor of gender equality,

00:42:09.740 of course, as a woman. But I think feminism has started to prioritize things that are not actually

00:42:14.960 good for women necessarily. And I think for young women, especially if they say, if they believe that

00:42:19.700 they are feminist, then they will say, oh, of course, I'm the same as my male partners. And I should,

00:42:24.160 I should approach sex the same way as my male partners. And that actually does a disservice to women.

00:42:30.480 How?

00:42:30.880 Well, because as women, we have evolved to be more selective in terms of our partners,

00:42:38.320 because there's the risk of getting pregnant and then having to raise that child. So if you are not

00:42:44.040 as choosy about who you have sex with, there's a chance that you may get pregnant by someone who

00:42:51.960 is not going to be around to help you raise that child. That's where it comes from, from an evolutionary

00:42:55.520 perspective. But I think modern day feminists will say, well, that has no bearing on my decisions and

00:43:03.500 the way I behave today, when it very much does.

00:43:08.540 Well, I can just raise the child myself. I mean, why do I need a man?

00:43:14.100 I mean...

00:43:14.620 You could. You could. You could. But I mean, it's going to be more difficult to do so. Arguably,

00:43:20.240 one parent raising a child is more difficult than two parents. Regardless, I think, of whatever your

00:43:25.300 political leanings are or how you feel about the nuclear family. That's just from a very practical

00:43:30.840 point.

00:43:32.620 So have you been following the social justice and especially Black Lives Matter now that is

00:43:42.120 talking about the destruction of the nuclear family and destroying the Western myths of the family?

00:43:51.580 Is that not crazy talk? I mean, a stable family, while it's not always achievable, a stable family

00:44:02.820 is proven to be the basic building block of a great society. Is it not?

00:44:13.300 Right. But you can't say that.

00:44:14.780 Well, I just did. I guess. I mean, they expect me to say that.

00:44:22.100 I mean, the strange thing is, though, the weird thing is all of this talk about anti-racism. Again,

00:44:27.440 of course, I'm against racism. I'm against racism. I would like to end racism against Black people. But

00:44:33.280 I don't understand why intersection... How does intersectionality fit into this? And like you're

00:44:37.580 saying, why does this have anything to do with the nuclear family? It's very strange to me why these

00:44:42.980 ideas are coming into play. Unless you attach political gain from them. I mean, all of these

00:44:54.340 tactics are Marxist. And so it's divide and conquer. It's put everybody in categories and destroy the

00:45:04.740 family and make the state the family. And it I mean, that's really it's the only way you can explain it, because

00:45:13.680 there's too many things now that are like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I agree that, you know, if you if you want

00:45:20.520 to be a woman, you have every right. Let's just not do it to the children. You know, there's real scientific

00:45:26.900 reasons. You know, I understand that all families have problems. And this is the ideal family. And

00:45:33.940 not everyone is going to be able to achieve that. But that's a good thing. There's no way to explain

00:45:39.060 what's happening to us other than you are intentionally setting out to destroy a society that you deem as bad

00:45:49.560 for some reason. And you will, you will throw everything and sacrifice everything on that altar.

00:45:57.320 But you are trying to destroy the Western society. It's the only answer I can come up with.

00:46:05.800 Right. And I mean, this ideology is also in children's curriculum. There's actually a march here

00:46:10.440 in Toronto a couple of days ago, that was about fighting racism in elementary schools, which,

00:46:17.400 you know, I think is a good cause in theory. But when I actually looked at the website of the organization

00:46:23.560 that was running it, they were talking about how there's white supremacy in our career, our school

00:46:27.700 curriculum. And I was just thinking, I don't know where to go from here. This is just one of those things,

00:46:32.800 right? Yeah, it's like you're not speaking the same language. No, there was a, an Illinois

00:46:38.800 state rep that just called for the end of all history, all US history from being taught in schools

00:46:49.360 at any level, because it will only lead to more generations of racists. I'm thinking,

00:46:55.800 wow. Okay. Okay. Sounds great. So take me through, take me through the, let me, let me play the average

00:47:12.000 parent in a couple of ways. Let me play the average parent that is thinking, you know, at college or

00:47:21.000 school, I know the teachers, it's, it's not all that bad. And yeah, the kids are learning some of

00:47:28.820 these things, but maybe it'll help them be a little more open-minded and I'm teaching something

00:47:34.820 different at home. So I don't really have to worry about it. Talk to that parent.

00:47:40.620 Just you wait till they go away to college. Cause I've heard this happen for many parents.

00:47:45.040 The kids go away to college. They're spending an insane amount of money on tuition and the child comes

00:47:50.280 back on the holidays and they say, I don't recognize my child anymore. They're completely

00:47:54.420 radicalized. And it's almost like I can't, I can't relate to them. I can't talk to them.

00:47:59.900 I think for many young people who are critically minded, it could just be a phase that they will

00:48:05.020 grow out of. And there are some young people definitely who, you know, I think should be

00:48:08.680 given credit because they are skeptical of these ideas and they don't buy them. But in terms of what

00:48:14.400 parents should do, I mean, I think there's still value. I haven't fully given up on academia. I think

00:48:20.140 there is still value for a child going to university. They just need to be aware that this is, they're

00:48:26.380 going to be faced with a lot of nonsense. Yeah. Do you think that you can survive? I mean, some

00:48:33.620 can, um, you know, some will be strong enough mentally or, or, or whatever, um, to be able

00:48:42.840 to, to take that system on and go, all right, I see what they're saying, but I'm not gonna, but a lot of

00:48:52.040 people, probably 70%, maybe 60%, just cave to whatever the culture is. And they just buy in and

00:49:00.700 they don't, they're not, they're not being taught how to critically think. So isn't that just rolling

00:49:07.180 the dice and hoping that you're going to win the lottery with your kid?

00:49:14.060 I think parents are in a good place to just, you know, I would think to that point, you would have

00:49:18.900 raised, you'd know your child and you would have raised them to be critical in that way. Would you

00:49:23.000 not? I think parents, parents know. And I think it's a, it's an opportunity for children when they do

00:49:32.220 go, I mean, they're going to be facing these ideas in society, even if they don't go to university,

00:49:35.860 it's going to be in the workplace. It's going to be with their peers. It's, you know, you turn on

00:49:40.580 any mainstream, not, not all news networks, but a lot of them. Yeah. So I think that could be an

00:49:48.060 opportunity to learn how to push back. And, and I would say, don't fight every fight for sure.

00:49:54.220 Pick your courses based on less ideological professors. And in some cases I've, I've heard

00:49:59.340 stories of students who will say, I just write what I need to write to pass the course and they know

00:50:04.440 they're doing that. So that's the difference. I think it's one thing if you're doing that,

00:50:07.560 you're actually believing what you're saying, but it's another thing, if you know, this is just what

00:50:11.740 I need to do to finish my degree and, you know, take courses that are hopefully meaningful to you

00:50:16.500 that you can get something out of. But at the end of the day, it will sharpen your, your

00:50:20.440 argumentation skills and you'll be more quick when you come out.

00:50:25.620 So there are, there are things, I mean, I, I've, I've worked in the media in New York, so I know

00:50:32.320 I can go in and I know how to navigate meetings. I know how to navigate hostile rooms, et cetera,

00:50:40.020 et cetera. And I can be perfectly delightful. Um, however, uh, is there something to be said,

00:50:50.060 um, about losing something? I guess maybe if you're, if you know exactly what you're doing,

00:50:57.600 but how many 20 somethings really know who they are? I mean, you know, college is to go find

00:51:04.000 yourself. No, it's not. It's to learn. It's not to go find yourself. Um, and is so many go in and

00:51:11.360 they want to go find themselves. What, what, what is the psychological ramification of going in for four

00:51:16.940 years and writing things you don't believe in? Hmm. Well, you know, even two years ago, I would

00:51:25.680 have said, maybe, maybe my position would be different. Maybe it would be beneficial to consider

00:51:29.680 other avenues. But the thing is, as I said, even if you don't go to university, you're going to be

00:51:34.120 facing this. If you go out and get a job and you choose to work instead of going to higher education,

00:51:39.480 you're going to have to face the same, same ideas and have to figure out how are you going to navigate

00:51:44.340 that? How are you going to push back against that? Do you just put your head down and basically go

00:51:48.640 along with it? So, I mean, these ideas are spread so deeply in our society now that it's, there's

00:51:54.100 really no escaping them. So is there a way back to sanity without a, uh, tragic reset?

00:52:05.800 I think we will get there. It's going to probably get a lot worse. I didn't think it would ever get

00:52:10.800 as bad as it's gone. Even in the last three to six months, it's just absolutely insane right now.

00:52:15.260 But I do think we will come back from it. And it's just a matter of hoping that the damage won't be

00:52:20.640 too bad when we do. I think in terms of the issues around gender, I think it's when all of these

00:52:25.940 children who have transitioned start detransitioning. That's when people are going to start. Those who

00:52:30.440 are really heavily invested in this narrative are going to realize they cannot deny the truth anymore.

00:52:35.060 But, you know, there was, uh, I mean, I, I hate to go here cause you know, it's just so stereotypical,

00:52:41.280 but, um, just look at the science of the progressive movement, you know, in Europe, in the, in the,

00:52:50.000 from the turn of the century to, you know, 1945, there was a place to where it was going along.

00:52:59.380 And then people were starting to warn and go, yeah, maybe we shouldn't be looking into all of these

00:53:04.060 things. And this kind of, this ideology is getting a little spooky. And then it just went to hell and

00:53:10.100 it took a giant reset. I know that people in my business are looking and saying, if we continue

00:53:17.860 down this road at this pace, uh, gosh, am I going to be able to speak out in a year? Am I going to be

00:53:26.460 able to have this job? Um, because between tech and everything else, I'll just be depersoned and

00:53:34.420 just, you're, you're done. Canceled. You know, uh, you would just be canceled, entirely canceled.

00:53:39.580 And I mean, by the banks, they're already starting, they're already starting to say,

00:53:43.540 you can't have banking services. If you, uh, you know, have these views and you're trying to be,

00:53:50.540 uh, a public figure, you won't have banking services. That's crazy. Um, you, you look at

00:54:00.180 your own field on how it's changing. Do you see a future where you are not allowed to speak and have

00:54:07.920 these kinds of views? Me personally, I would hope not. I, but I've set my life up in a way where I

00:54:16.260 have more freedom than most people. And that, you know, I did leave academia for that very reason,

00:54:21.160 because I wasn't willing to stay quiet and I wasn't willing to just put my head down and do

00:54:25.420 what people were telling me to do and say, I, you know, I do feel more optimistic because even in the

00:54:31.620 last six months, I've had people reach out to me, people who had said even five years ago, this is a

00:54:37.580 problem that it does not directly affect me. There's no point in me speaking out about this because I have

00:54:42.660 nothing to gain. So I'm just going to go about my life and hope it sorts itself out. They're now

00:54:47.320 saying to me, this is really bad and I need to figure out how I can help change the course that

00:54:52.460 we are headed on. And it doesn't matter if there's going to be a cost to me personally. I just can't,

00:54:57.120 I've had it. So I think the line will be when, when the majority of people, who I think is,

00:55:02.680 it is the majority say we are fully fed up and we are not buying this anymore. We're not going to

00:55:07.740 live in fear anymore. I saw, um, I saw that you, and you spoke about it, that you spend some time

00:55:13.900 with Jonathan Haidt, who I think is, is brilliant and, and really has, uh, many of the answers,

00:55:21.300 um, to be able to pull us back together, to even understand one another. The work that he has done

00:55:28.000 on language is so important. But when I talked to him, uh, he said, uh, you know, that, that we just,

00:55:37.440 we just don't, we, we're not hearing each other. And he, he seemed pretty bleak, um, because of the

00:55:45.040 uphill battle of how many people would have to really get involved and say, wait, stop. We're not

00:55:52.920 really hearing each other. We're using two different languages. Um, was he more optimistic

00:55:58.760 or what was your exchange with him? Like? Hmm. I sense he was optimistic. I didn't, I didn't get

00:56:05.880 that feeling that it wasn't, it would be impossible not to say that that's what you were saying, but

00:56:09.780 just in terms of ideological diversity, viewpoint diversity. And I do think his organization,

00:56:15.680 Heterodox Academy is making good, good changes. So I do feel hopeful in that way. It just,

00:56:22.340 I think where we are right now, I think also a lot of it, I'm not sure how much time you spend

00:56:25.820 on social media, but I find when I'm on social media, it makes it so much worse. It's there,

00:56:30.740 there's almost nothing positive on there. I've been on there more often just because I,

00:56:35.580 you know, I have this book and I'm happy to hear what people have to say about it. But

00:56:38.100 otherwise I try not to be on there very much because I think it does also skew the way we view

00:56:42.940 things. And, and all you see on there is, is just negative videos and opinions and hot takes.

00:56:49.440 I think that's why we're so divided is because we've gone from a, you know, a 24 hour news cycle

00:56:56.400 to about a 24 second news cycle. Um, and nothing remains, uh, you know, since COVID I've done all

00:57:04.740 my stuff from my house with my family. And then we went up to the mountains for about what, three

00:57:10.960 months and lived in a town of about a thousand people. None of these problems are affecting any of

00:57:18.640 them. I mean, uh, you know, uh, and, and the pessimism was coming from, geez, what I see

00:57:24.680 happening on TV and social media, boy, we're done. Um, but in their real life, they don't feel that

00:57:32.060 they're done. They're just getting this, this snapshot, um, that is so inaccurate. I was worried

00:57:40.040 in Facebook at first that people would look at Facebook lives and go, geez, my life sucks

00:57:46.580 because nobody's showing the bad side of their life. Nobody's showing the, you know, their hair

00:57:51.040 standing up when they get up in the morning, they're showing just the best things. And so

00:57:55.860 everybody has a perfect life except for you. And you're faking that perfect life on Facebook.

00:58:00.520 That's what I was concerned about. That is, that problem is just dwarfed by the, the explosion of

00:58:11.820 untruths, um, from a very small handful of people, I think that are just bullying everybody into

00:58:20.540 thinking you're in the minority, you're in the minority. Right. And I find the same thing when I

00:58:26.900 go outside here in Toronto, cause I've been here predominantly for the last while I've been

00:58:30.580 writing this book and now we've been in lockdown that when I talk to people, see people in the

00:58:35.120 street, they're not concerned about the same things that we see on social media day in, day out, or

00:58:39.940 I think also working in, in media, the, what the issues that we are faced with as part of our

00:58:44.820 profession. So that, that does help me to stay a bit more balanced, I think, and realize that

00:58:49.800 at the end of the day, sometimes it's better just to put things away and go do something else.

00:58:54.120 Yeah. And that's, I think goes back to, we were talking about schooling. I think that goes back

00:59:00.180 to part of the problem, um, uh, for us to, to do that. That is, it's important that we keep

00:59:08.880 perspective and we disconnect from some of that, but then we look at the places where it actually

00:59:15.200 is happening and really doing damage and influence. You know, the, the things that are happening in our

00:59:22.240 schools, um, and beyond the universities, but our, our high schools and our, uh, elementary schools,

00:59:29.480 um, there's some really dangerous things being introduced into those schools and we can't dismiss

00:59:36.240 that. So it's this hard space on what do I dismiss? What do I not? Is it really on fire or

00:59:43.960 is it just something that our kids are dealing with a different world? How do you know?

00:59:49.720 Picking your battles? Well, I think that's part of the process. I'm not a parent, so I,

00:59:54.760 you know, I can't tell other parents what to do. I can't really speak from personal experience,

00:59:58.320 but I would say my sense is that parents are able to prioritize what's important for their kids. And

01:00:03.260 if you feel uncomfortable, especially with regards to what your children are being taught in school,

01:00:07.700 don't be afraid to say so. And don't be afraid to even take your kids out of certain classes,

01:00:12.240 if that's the case, because I have colleagues who are doing that. They say there's no, there's no

01:00:15.960 other course, you know, they don't feel that this is benefiting their children. They don't want their

01:00:20.920 children to be indoctrinated. So that's perfectly your right. And if other parents want to go along

01:00:25.100 with that, then that's their business. Gosh, can you believe we're having this cover? First of all,

01:00:30.380 can you believe you and I are having this conversation where you and I probably would have thought

01:00:36.300 we'll never have that conversation, you know, 10 years ago. And I can't believe that not only are

01:00:42.580 you and I talking and, and our friends, but, uh, that we're talking about a world where I remember

01:00:49.920 in the 1990s, I read a quote from Emmanuel Kant that I, I could not understand at the time. And he said,

01:00:57.280 uh, there are many things that I believe that I shall never say, but I shall never say the things that

01:01:02.360 I do not believe. And I couldn't understand a world like that. I thought, what must it be like

01:01:09.080 to live in a world like that? This one, this one, I mean, I can't believe we're talking about,

01:01:16.940 you know, uh, you got to pull your kids out of school because they're just, you know, you just,

01:01:23.640 there's just no other choice and you can't really fight against, you know, this or that. And I just,

01:01:30.240 it's bizarre. I wake up and many times and just think, is this reality or did we slip through a

01:01:38.420 wormhole? Oh yeah. But you know, I think part of the reason why you and I get along, even if we do

01:01:43.400 have different opinions is that we have that same personality trait, which is that we're not going to

01:01:47.360 lie and we speak our minds. And so I, and I think we're both open-minded people in that way, because

01:01:53.160 I, I, for me, it's engage with someone. I don't need to agree with them and I don't need them to agree

01:01:57.280 with me. I just, what I would ask is that they, you know, give me a fair chance.

01:02:02.400 Yeah. And if you, if, if, if I entered a, uh, conversation with someone who no matter what you

01:02:13.640 said, you would not change my mind. That's a waste. That's a waste. Um, and, and I think that's the

01:02:22.040 problem. Too many conversations are happening with too many people who are just trying to win.

01:02:27.100 I just want the truth. And, and, and I've faced the truth about myself and everything else in my

01:02:33.860 own life. So many times where you're like, Oh, I don't know if I want to believe that. Cause

01:02:38.860 that'll be hard to do or hard to believe or hard to stay true to. And, uh, and you decide,

01:02:44.880 is the truth worth it or not? And when you decide the truth is worth it, then you can have

01:02:51.140 conversations with people because I don't know what's true. I know what I have found. And if you

01:02:57.040 can find something that makes more sense, please tell me about it. Cause I'd love to be wrong on a

01:03:03.040 myriad of items. I would say there are two ways to live in the world, the way you, the way it is and

01:03:09.840 the way you want it to be. And I think for people who want to see the world as it actually is,

01:03:14.740 it's, it's, it is more difficult, but at the end of the day, you are seeing the truth and you're

01:03:18.700 living in reality. Otherwise the truth is going to come out eventually and it's going to hurt you

01:03:22.540 even more. Thank you so much for your honesty. Thanks for, um, being so open and, um, and willing

01:03:30.800 to take the arrows. I know that you have, man, you have taken some really bad arrows, uh, and, uh,

01:03:38.380 courage is contagious. And I thank you for, um, spreading the, um, the message that we can

01:03:48.060 disagree and I'm not going to sit down and I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you so much

01:03:54.300 for having me again. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass

01:04:05.320 this onto a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

The Glenn Beck Program - August 08, 2020

Ep 77 ｜ Gender ISN'T Fluid： Debunking Sexual Orientation Lies With Science ｜ Dr. Debra Soh ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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