The Glenn Beck Program - Ep 82 ｜ Vox Co-Founder & Glenn Agree： 'We Aren't That Far Apart' ｜ Matthew Yglesias ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

00:00:00.000 I don't know if I've ever told you this, but the working title for this podcast was Dangerous Conversations.

00:00:06.740 And it started out with the idea that I'd find 10 or 12 people that I really, really wanted to talk to and kind of a tongue-in-cheek, playful jab at the growing hatred for civil discourse.

00:00:22.400 Because I know a lot of people that I really disagree with, that I really respect.

00:00:25.700 That was over two years ago, and the hatred for civil discourse has mutated into something that we're not even supposed to laugh at anymore.

00:00:36.600 All the reason more to have dangerous conversations, like the one that you're going to hear.

00:00:41.980 This conversation probably would have been different two years ago, but I feel like our country is at such a crossroads with people who are actively calling for the destruction of America.

00:00:57.200 That, in retrospect, I might have failed in this podcast, because I'm very open-minded and open-minded with his book.

00:01:15.720 And I found so many places we could connect on.

00:01:18.600 But I don't think I necessarily made him feel as comfortable as I should have.

00:01:25.440 The motivation for this podcast was to connect with people who we're not supposed to connect with.

00:01:31.160 The more unlikely the pair, the better.

00:01:34.040 To have illuminating conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:37.580 And we've done that.

00:01:39.600 We've had people here who vehemently disagree with each other.

00:01:42.620 And we have brainstormed over and over for weeks on end, trying to compile lists of all the guests that we thought would be perfect.

00:01:50.740 Chalkboards filled with ideas in every aspect of every podcast.

00:01:55.900 We even designed the set to be kind of a place that kind of just lends itself to a quiet conversation.

00:02:02.880 It's kind of a sacred, but somehow extravagant and minimal at the same time, kind of a cathedral of thought.

00:02:13.300 When you walk in here, you just kind of feel calm.

00:02:17.740 Today's guest is Matthew Iglesias.

00:02:21.300 And he has, I mean, this is the vision that I had from the start.

00:02:26.320 Four years after I founded The Blaze, Matthew co-founded the left-leaning Vox.com.

00:02:31.880 His senior correspondent, he's been fundamental in building Vox into a robust news outlet with sizable readership.

00:02:41.760 He's written exclusively for left-leaning outlets, American Prospect, The Atlantis, Slate, Think Progress.

00:02:50.340 He was born in the liberal bubble of New York City, currently lives in the liberal bubble of Washington, D.C.

00:02:56.760 And in his latest book, One Billion Americans, he advocates for strengthened welfare state and fewer immigration restrictions.

00:03:06.320 So when I got this suggestion on the chalkboard, I was like, why would I do this interview again?

00:03:13.400 Because there's lots of reasons we could be better enemies.

00:03:18.860 And we are supposed to hate one another.

00:03:21.040 We're supposed to mock and belittle and insult.

00:03:24.720 But we don't.

00:03:26.600 And we shouldn't have to.

00:03:28.260 And neither should you.

00:03:30.060 And as I read this,

00:03:31.700 there were a lot of stuff in here

00:03:33.940 I deeply agreed with.

00:03:36.620 And I don't think he knew that.

00:03:43.340 And we have, as you will see in today's podcast, an inability at times, flashes of it, that is the real problem.

00:03:53.460 We can't see the other side as anything other than a monolith.

00:04:00.100 So the big objective of today's show, your job, is to see me and to see Matthew

00:04:09.180 and try to truly understand us as individuals.

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00:05:18.480 Matthew, welcome to the podcast.

00:05:33.500 I think this is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, isn't it?

00:05:36.620 Where you're on my podcast and we're actually having a friendly conversation.

00:05:41.220 Well, you know, we're all having fun trying to learn.

00:05:45.140 No, I you know, I as I said in the intro, this is what we need more of in America.

00:05:53.300 Because as I look at, you know, your your case for a billion Americans, I think you are.

00:06:02.500 I think you'd be surprised on how much we agree on.

00:06:06.640 And we do have disagreements, but it's it's not the cartoon disagreements that I think everybody in the media wants everybody to have.

00:06:16.080 Yeah.

00:06:16.260 I mean, I wanted to write a book that I thought, you know, people would agree with at least part of sort of from all points on the political spectrum.

00:06:23.240 Right.

00:06:23.400 See where we can go.

00:06:24.940 But I think it's I think where we connect and I want to concentrate on that, where we connect on this, I think, is a bigger solution than even what you were going for.

00:06:36.520 I mean, you're the book is one billion Americans, the case for thinking bigger.

00:06:41.880 So let's just make that case.

00:06:43.440 But I think as we have a conversation, a bigger problem is is even solved.

00:06:50.760 So let's let's start your case.

00:06:52.880 Yeah.

00:06:53.460 For a billion Americans.

00:06:56.720 You know, you look at the United States today, we're sort of the number one power in the world.

00:07:01.880 We have been for a long time, 100 years or more.

00:07:04.620 But that's slipping.

00:07:06.020 Right.

00:07:06.260 We are facing a sort of relative decline vis a vis China.

00:07:10.060 Their economy's grown very rapidly.

00:07:12.040 In a lot of ways, that's a good thing.

00:07:13.540 I mean, global poverty has gone down a lot.

00:07:16.020 It's good to see other people doing well.

00:07:17.800 But when you have a country of one point two billion people, it's four times our population.

00:07:22.640 If they get to half of our per capita wealth, they become a much stronger economy than we are in the aggregate.

00:07:29.060 Right.

00:07:29.220 And so we should do something about that.

00:07:31.880 I think Americans, you know, want to be the world's number one power.

00:07:36.440 We don't want to be number two to China.

00:07:38.100 And, you know, nobody is talking about how do we settle for number two?

00:07:42.180 How do we accommodate ourselves to a world of Chinese hegemony? 1.00

00:07:45.380 But our political leaders aren't really talking about solutions to that problem.

00:07:50.380 Right.

00:07:50.640 So President Trump, you know, he wants to ban TikTok and he's got bipartisan support with that.

00:07:56.160 You know, Chuck Schumer's for it.

00:07:57.500 And I'm for it, too.

00:07:58.720 I mean, I think it's making sense.

00:07:59.900 But cracking down on Chinese video meme apps is like not going to get the job done.

00:08:05.760 Right.

00:08:05.880 We need to do something bigger, you know, and there's nothing wrong with it.

00:08:10.580 It's good that we're having that conversation after sort of 20 years of wishful thinking.

00:08:15.220 So I don't like the fact that we've gotten into a place that China is leading us in 5G.

00:08:22.260 And my my solution for the last 15 years has not been more government involvement or or more regulation on China.

00:08:33.440 It's what are we doing to make ourselves the most competitive?

00:08:38.140 We we have to have the the desire to to be the most competitive and to put the best product out with the least amount of interference from from the political side.

00:08:52.140 I mean, whoever controls 5G is going to have an entrance to a pipeline of almost every piece of information the world could ever use for national security.

00:09:04.620 I don't want China to have that.

00:09:07.040 Also, though, for, you know, national pride and for the good of generations to come, I want us to lead the world.

00:09:13.780 But let me I mean, we've got to do what we can.

00:09:17.080 Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:17.740 But let me at home.

00:09:18.980 Yeah.

00:09:19.160 Let me start with this.

00:09:21.060 And I think this is one of the things that I think you're sincere, but you are someone who is from the middle left.

00:09:35.600 And you've you've in reading your work, it doesn't seem like you understand that there are a lot of people on the left that do have a problem with us being number two or number five or number one hundred. 0.54

00:09:50.520 And they we have we're constantly being told that America is evil, is racist, should be destroyed.

00:09:59.840 And that's caused us a lot of problems of being able to do anything, because, quite frankly, I think a lot of people have lost faith that this is the place for the greatest opportunity in the world.

00:10:12.500 You know, I mean, yes, this is a patriotic book, right?

00:10:15.340 I mean, you look at it, right?

00:10:16.480 It's got red, white and blue on the cover.

00:10:18.220 It's got a map of America.

00:10:19.420 It's got a lot of stars.

00:10:20.980 And, you know, some people on the left, I got a I got a very harsh review from a left wing guy in the New Republic, because basically his point of view was like, why is this guy out here saying America should stay number one?

00:10:31.820 You know, like, let's let's throw America in the trash. 1.00

00:10:34.300 And that's not me.

00:10:35.360 And I think it's not most people on the left.

00:10:37.840 You know, you look at a Joe Biden campaign event.

00:10:40.260 He's up there with the little flag, same as anybody else, because this is a patriotic country, you know, and most people on it on the left or on the right, like they're for that.

00:10:48.620 Something, you know, I write about in the book a fair amount is immigration, right?

00:10:52.560 Which is something that, you know, most people on the left are supportive of.

00:10:56.980 But I want people who agree with me about that to think about the meaning of immigration, right?

00:11:02.520 It is true that America has had problems with race and racism in its history and in its present day.

00:11:08.500 But what's also true is that millions of people from around the world would like to come here.

00:11:13.480 Right. And not just white people.

00:11:15.360 Right. Latin American people, African people, Asian people, all kinds of people know.

00:11:20.220 And you see it in what they their actions, right?

00:11:23.060 That America is a great land of opportunity for lots of different people.

00:11:27.080 And I want people on the left to embrace that, to see what that says about us and take that message to heart.

00:11:32.400 And I want people on the right to also take that to heart.

00:11:35.120 Right. This is one of the great strengths of this country.

00:11:38.260 Mike Pompeo said in a speech, he said, you know, people aren't clamoring to move to communist China.

00:11:43.660 And he was absolutely right about that.

00:11:45.460 Right. Like our system is better than theirs.

00:11:47.700 And we should take advantage of that.

00:11:49.520 So this is a place where you have no argument with most of the conservatives that I know.

00:11:57.320 But in the way it's and I don't I don't I don't I'm looking to understand.

00:12:03.040 I'm not looking to condemn.

00:12:04.740 I'm really I'm looking to understand.

00:12:08.200 I don't know where you get the view that conservatives don't want immigrants.

00:12:14.900 What conservatives are saying now, the Donald Trump is a symptom.

00:12:20.580 He's not a cause.

00:12:21.920 He's a symptom.

00:12:23.220 He's a symptom of of not listening to people who love their country, you know, are worried about the culture of the country, worried about the Constitution.

00:12:36.980 We've we put the Constitution in the rearview mirror a long time ago.

00:12:41.200 And then both Republicans and Democrats have been part of that.

00:12:45.600 But we're worried about the loss of things. 0.99

00:12:48.080 And so what happens with immigration is you have wild open borders, which after September 11th, we all should have we all should know that's just stupid. 0.99

00:12:58.980 You just don't have the Wild West and anyone can come in. 0.99

00:13:02.720 But you also have lost the idea of merit.

00:13:07.800 I think every conservative that I know has no problem with people coming in if if they are going to come in and work and they want to, you know, better their lives, which is almost every immigrant I have seen from, you know, Mexico, Latin America.

00:13:25.380 They work far harder than most Americans, especially American kids.

00:13:31.180 It renews us.

00:13:32.540 It's good.

00:13:33.980 But we can't lose the culture, meaning we can't say we're two languages and it doesn't matter what you think of the United States.

00:13:43.540 If you came here and you know why you came here and you're willing to work, you are going to be the best American.

00:13:51.200 I mean, that's great.

00:13:52.560 I'm glad to hear you say that.

00:13:53.980 And, you know, I mean, I think as with anything, right, I think I've been doing some different shows with different conservatives and some of them say, oh, if only all the liberals, you know, like had flags on their books like you do.

00:14:04.240 And I say, great.

00:14:05.240 You know, I mean, I wish we did.

00:14:06.620 And I wish that all conservatives thought the way you're thinking about immigration.

00:14:10.600 One of the things I write about in the book is the Rays Act, right, which Tom Cotton and Senator Perdue proposed.

00:14:17.060 And their idea is, well, we should have immigration based on a merit system.

00:14:21.420 And I think it makes sense.

00:14:22.660 I have some quibbles with the details.

00:14:24.820 But, you know, right now, whether you can get a visa has to do with do you have close relatives living in the United States and how many other people from your country have come here?

00:14:35.300 And, you know, that's fine.

00:14:37.340 But it's not great.

00:14:38.400 Like we can do better than that.

00:14:40.220 And Cotton's idea, you know, basically you get extra points if you speak English.

00:14:46.040 You get extra points if you have technical skills.

00:14:48.460 You get points based on your age so that we get people who will work a whole career and contribute to Social Security.

00:14:54.660 That makes a lot of sense to me.

00:14:56.520 What doesn't make sense to me is he wants to take the number of legal, legal immigrants and cut it in half.

00:15:02.600 No.

00:15:03.040 Right.

00:15:03.580 Yeah.

00:15:03.740 I don't think we should do that.

00:15:05.020 Right.

00:15:05.600 Especially if we are getting better at making sure that the immigrants who come are net contributors to the tax base. 1.00

00:15:13.480 So like let's bring them in.

00:15:14.680 But we should talk about the cultural issues because this is what I think has been frustrating people.

00:15:20.340 A lot of people have concerns about the cultural impact of immigration, but they don't want to address it squarely.

00:15:28.700 Right. 0.96

00:15:28.840 So instead, we get stuff like Trump says, oh, they're they're all murderers and rapists. 0.99

00:15:33.620 Right. 0.96

00:15:34.180 And that's not right.

00:15:35.760 But what is true, right, is like it changes your society when people come from foreign countries. 1.00

00:15:40.100 OK, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:15:41.940 We should think about who comes and why.

00:15:43.300 Before you make more statements, let's let's address these as we go.

00:15:47.560 Not everybody is a rapist or a burglar or whatever.

00:15:52.000 I think if I were on the and I've said this many times to my audience, if I were on the other side, we have to look at this from their side.

00:15:59.600 If I'm in a place where I can't grow, my kids can't grow.

00:16:05.200 There's no opportunity. And I've got a drug lord moving into town.

00:16:09.160 I'm going to the United States, especially if they're like, oh, you know what?

00:16:13.380 Come on in. Don't worry about it. I'm rolling the dice.

00:16:16.740 OK, it's our fault because we don't take it seriously because I would absolutely do exactly what they do.

00:16:25.080 However, when it comes to culture, it's not about, you know, are we going to have more Mexican restaurants or whatever?

00:16:32.860 It's about becoming something that we're not.

00:16:36.740 So when people come here, it is a disadvantage for them not to speak English.

00:16:42.820 It's also a disadvantage and why my kids take Spanish in school.

00:16:47.140 It's a disadvantage to only speak English.

00:16:49.880 But if you're coming here to be able to say, I want to be a part of this without shedding who you are and what you brought, but melt into this.

00:17:03.160 You're still holding up the principles, not the flag.

00:17:08.520 By the way, you don't have a flag on it. 0.99

00:17:10.220 It's just red, white and blue, but not not the flag, not that jingoistic crap. 0.96

00:17:15.260 I hate that stuff because it obscures the principles, the principles that made us different. 0.95

00:17:23.580 And if you hold up those principles, that's, I think, what most people are worried about, the deep change.

00:17:30.940 Yeah, and this is what we should do, right?

00:17:34.360 I mean, we should think about how can we address that, right?

00:17:37.700 Not just say, oh, I'm afraid or say, oh, no, you're a racist if you're concerned about this and have people get defensive and argue and argue and argue.

00:17:47.520 We should think about what we can do, right?

00:17:49.600 My grandmother used to tell me she was born here, but, you know, her parents were immigrants, Yiddish speaking.

00:17:56.740 She grew up, you know, not English speaking in her household.

00:17:59.320 And they had programs at that time to sort of teach kids.

00:18:03.800 This is how we're going to do things in America, you know, and it was everything from English classes starting at a young age.

00:18:09.840 You would never get liberals to do that.

00:18:12.100 You know how to brush your teeth.

00:18:15.000 I don't know.

00:18:15.880 You know, would you would you not?

00:18:17.200 Right.

00:18:17.340 The point is, this needs to be part of the bargain.

00:18:20.500 Right.

00:18:20.740 Liberals have a lot of humanitarian concerns and conservatives have a lot of doubts.

00:18:25.920 And what we ought to do.

00:18:26.900 Right.

00:18:27.520 So so often we make compromises in America right now by doing nothing.

00:18:33.740 Right.

00:18:34.220 So let me accomplish what the left wants and we don't accomplish what the right wants.

00:18:38.040 So what we ought to do is both.

00:18:40.480 OK, agree.

00:18:42.060 Let me tell you that liberals aren't the only ones that care about humanitarian causes.

00:18:50.340 I was in Australia helping move you cities out of the Middle East who had been slaves and we went in and rescued them.

00:19:00.480 And America wouldn't take any of them.

00:19:03.120 So we worked out deals with countries all across the world.

00:19:06.760 And Australia was a great country and a great host country.

00:19:10.940 A year later, I go back to visit and we had a meeting with everybody like at four o'clock and like nobody showed up.

00:19:19.760 And I'm like, what happened?

00:19:21.240 And they said, oh, they'll be here late.

00:19:23.400 They'll be here about four thirty.

00:19:24.620 And I said, why?

00:19:26.760 And they said, because Australia is really, really serious.

00:19:32.240 You must speak English if you come here.

00:19:36.620 You have to know the laws and the rules.

00:19:39.460 And they had they go through a whole cultural thing to explain the culture of of Australia.

00:19:48.500 When they finally did arrive, they could speak.

00:19:52.500 Not all of them, especially the older ones, but the younger ones could speak English and they understood the country they were living in.

00:20:01.440 I don't think Americans conservatives are against that.

00:20:06.320 They would be for that.

00:20:07.400 But you who on the right on the left would never because that's saying America is different.

00:20:14.320 It has its own rich culture.

00:20:16.400 Culture is being dismantled by the left every step of the way.

00:20:23.140 You know, Glenn, I mean, I think this is a thing you sometimes do, right, where it's true.

00:20:30.060 There's people on the left who think that way, but it's not the mainstream idea here, right?

00:20:34.000 You look.

00:20:34.340 OK, so then let's talk.

00:20:35.360 Let's stop talking about the left.

00:20:36.720 Wait, wait, let's stop talking about the left.

00:20:38.040 Let's define liberals and Democrats, the old school Democrat and liberal.

00:20:44.400 I don't think feels that way.

00:20:46.260 They may go along with it, but they don't necessarily feel that way.

00:20:49.480 The left is entirely different.

00:20:52.600 1619 Project BLM.

00:20:54.940 Come on.

00:20:55.600 Well, 1619, look, I've got some disagreements with that, but I think you're entirely right about English, right? 1.00

00:21:02.640 If we want to say we should have more immigrants, which I think we should, it's incredible benefits to our country from that.

00:21:09.860 Me too.

00:21:10.360 Right.

00:21:10.540 It makes a ton of sense.

00:21:11.900 Like lots of people in the world speak English and lots of people in the world learn English all the time.

00:21:17.280 You go anywhere in the world.

00:21:19.100 I went to Vietnam, right?

00:21:20.760 And obviously, most people there don't speak English, but lots and lots of young people are there learning English just because it's the language of international business.

00:21:28.380 Now, if you say to people, look, if you want a visa to come to the United States, if you're young, if you learn English, if you get a college degree, we're going to make it possible for you to come here.

00:21:37.560 People will do that, right?

00:21:38.700 They want to get in on this.

00:21:40.480 And we had it, right?

00:21:41.480 In the 2013 immigration bill, right, it was a bipartisan bill, stuff the Republicans wanted to get in there, a lot of money for border security stuff and stuff for English classes, right?

00:21:51.080 So if you want to become a citizen here, you need to learn.

00:21:54.940 You need to learn your constitution, learn your founding principles.

00:21:58.680 I think that's all a great idea.

00:22:00.800 You know, you want to talk about the 1619 Project.

00:22:02.800 I mean, I think there's some good articles in that package, but I agree with you, right?

00:22:08.500 You know, I think I'm sure there are some good articles, but when you say there are more Imagineers on the left than Disney has ever produced.

00:22:18.560 Let's stop reimagining our history and start actually dealing with real history because then we can deal with problems.

00:22:26.960 You know, I saw the I saw the movie.

00:22:29.080 I don't even know if it's about real history, right?

00:22:30.620 It's about building a common culture, right?

00:22:32.740 So one of the things we've traditionally done in the United States is say, OK, look, we have a kind of a civic religion here, right?

00:22:40.840 And so we talk about George Washington.

00:22:42.940 We talk about Thomas Jefferson.

00:22:44.220 We talk about Alexander Hamilton.

00:22:46.140 We maybe idealize those guys a little bit more.

00:22:49.240 When? 1920?

00:22:51.660 We do most of our history, right?

00:22:53.640 And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

00:22:55.560 You know, like, it's fine to, like, build up a culture that says, you know, we these are the best ideals of America about equality and other things like that and tell a story about sort of fulfilling the American dream.

00:23:08.220 That's how Barack Obama always talked.

00:23:10.260 That's how people who want to win elections, frankly, talk.

00:23:13.080 It's, you know, I'm a journalist, right?

00:23:15.580 Sometimes we tell uncomfortable truths about things.

00:23:18.780 Sometimes heroes, you know, there's really some mud on their shoes and there's a role to be played for exposing that.

00:23:24.020 But I completely agree.

00:23:25.480 Like, we can't have a public culture that's dominated by this sort of hermeneutics of suspicion.

00:23:32.540 That's not how human societies work.

00:23:34.820 We have to look at what's good in the past and what's worth celebrating and talk about that.

00:23:39.800 All right.

00:23:40.560 I want to tell you a story about two different individuals.

00:23:44.060 They know each other.

00:23:45.680 One was driving probably an eight-year-old car and the other one is driving a 10-year-old truck.

00:23:51.320 Well, time came where the check engine light came on and then the car just started working, stopped working, and so did the truck.

00:24:00.880 They both brought them to different dealerships to have them fixed.

00:24:04.060 They were both out of warranty. 1.00

00:24:06.680 This guy, he paid $3,000 to have that stupid computer system fixed. 1.00

00:24:12.940 This guy was going to be charged $6,000 for a stupid chip, and he paid nothing. 1.00

00:24:23.040 The difference? 1.00

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00:24:47.420 This may come as a surprise to you, but I am a huge collector of American history.

00:24:55.260 And I've put together a vault and a museum with some partners.

00:25:00.800 We have more documents on the founding of America than anyone besides the National Archives and the Library of Congress.

00:25:11.120 However, what I brought to this was the negative.

00:25:16.500 I am so deeply offended by Wounded Knee and how Wounded Knee handed out medals like they were candy.

00:25:26.420 That was a massacre.

00:25:27.560 I own one of the seven guns from Wounded Knee, the only one in private hands.

00:25:34.000 And the reason why is because I believe to understand America, you must know the worst because you have to teach it. 1.00

00:25:44.280 Andrew Jackson was a son of a bitch. 1.00

00:25:47.040 So was Woodrow Wilson. 1.00

00:25:49.780 Unbelievable racists.

00:25:51.520 But we have to know the truth about it and then say, so what is America?

00:25:58.200 America is somebody like, to me, like Winston Churchill.

00:26:02.740 You look at him from the Western eyes.

00:26:05.500 He's fantastic. 1.00

00:26:06.980 But you go over to India and you talk about Winston Churchill and he is a bastard. 0.99

00:26:13.200 So which one is he? 0.99

00:26:14.360 The answer is both.

00:26:16.260 He's both of those.

00:26:17.580 It's which do you choose to grow and which do you choose to shed?

00:26:23.800 We're not teaching both.

00:26:24.740 No, I think that's absolutely right.

00:26:26.080 I think that's absolutely right.

00:26:27.420 I remember I think remember watching you talking about Woodrow Wilson 10, 12 years ago before before you were you were canceling him before it was cool.

00:26:37.020 I wasn't canceling him.

00:26:38.640 I was just pointing out he's not the hero.

00:26:41.100 The left seemed to make him out to be.

00:26:42.820 Right.

00:26:43.860 And so it flips.

00:26:44.740 Right.

00:26:44.960 I mean, there's a certain temperament that wants everyone to be all good or all bad.

00:26:50.300 Right.

00:26:50.660 You know, which is comic books.

00:26:52.100 My five year old was watching Star Wars and he was he was very frustrated that Han Solo didn't act like a good guy all the time.

00:27:00.200 Right.

00:27:00.480 And that's that's a five year old's view.

00:27:02.300 Right.

00:27:02.620 Correct.

00:27:03.760 You know, and the rest of us can understand.

00:27:05.780 Right.

00:27:06.000 History has some more complexity to it than that.

00:27:08.400 But, you know, so my book, right, this, I think, is very much in line with that.

00:27:13.140 Like, I want to appeal to some of the best moments in American history and the way in which this country was built up over time deliberately.

00:27:23.720 Right.

00:27:23.920 We could have taken the path that Canada took, which is a it's a very nice country.

00:27:28.400 You know, you go to Canada, they're doing well.

00:27:30.160 They've got nice little towns, suburbs, things like that.

00:27:33.140 But it's thirty five million people.

00:27:34.720 Right.

00:27:34.900 Canada has never been a major power on the world stage and it has not been able to, you know, stand up for Canadian values.

00:27:43.820 Right.

00:27:44.040 Any of those sort of nice big things we say about America, they've been dark sides, obviously, to America's larger role in the world.

00:27:51.000 When you do more, sometimes it doesn't work out.

00:27:54.000 But I think we have done really big, important things in the world.

00:27:57.540 One thing I think.

00:27:58.340 The bad ones.

00:27:59.040 One thing I think.

00:27:59.700 The reason we one thing, the reason we think that is that, like, this is a big country.

00:28:05.100 Right.

00:28:05.420 Like, you can't you can't beat the Nazis if you're a little rinky dink country. 1.00

00:28:10.020 You got to be you got to be big.

00:28:11.740 Right.

00:28:12.040 And we should aspire to that.

00:28:14.540 Well, I think the one thing we agree on is and I could be wrong on this part of it.

00:28:19.440 But overall, I think I'm right.

00:28:22.100 But the you know what what.

00:28:27.840 Eisenhower said in his farewell address is what the problems are right now between Washington's farewell address and Eisenhower's farewell address.

00:28:37.580 I think we would solve 90 percent of the problems we we got too big for our boots.

00:28:46.500 We we went from, you know, France doesn't give people presence like the Statue of Liberty, especially to an arrogant group of people.

00:28:57.900 And we became arrogant in all of our foreign policy, saying we're going to give this to you.

00:29:05.180 We can't do that.

00:29:06.520 We can help you if you're in trouble, but we can't give you.

00:29:09.760 You may not want it.

00:29:12.340 And you have to earn that on your own.

00:29:15.280 You have to be in the place to where you can earn that and we could help you.

00:29:19.500 But we became so arrogant that beating our chest, telling everyone, look how great we are, that, of course, the rest of the world has a problem with us because we say, look how great we are.

00:29:34.240 We stand up for values. 1.00

00:29:35.480 Oh, by the way, I'll ghost plane you to another country and have the crap tortured out of you forever. 1.00

00:29:42.360 But we don't do torture. 1.00

00:29:43.920 That's ridiculous.

00:29:46.000 That's where we've made our mistakes. 0.92

00:29:47.920 Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

00:29:50.640 You know, there have been big mistakes there.

00:29:52.480 And I think, you know, I think the challenge of China should cause us to refocus a little bit. 0.90

00:29:59.820 Right.

00:30:00.300 It's not about going around the world, picking fights, having wars, having big problems.

00:30:06.060 But there is a question of weight on the international stage.

00:30:09.700 Right.

00:30:09.900 There was this great report that PEN America did, and it came out after my book was all done.

00:30:14.800 So I can now only talk about it on podcasts.

00:30:17.020 But they were looking at how People's Republic censors influence Hollywood movies, that it used to be, well, they would make changes to the China release.

00:30:27.800 Right.

00:30:27.940 They could say, OK, if you cut this scene, you can put it out in China.

00:30:31.100 But now the Chinese box office is bigger than the American box office.

00:30:35.800 That's the number one market that Hollywood cares about.

00:30:38.260 So they say, look, you've got to change the movie like this, right, for everywhere, for the global release.

00:30:44.140 So now they are dictating what, quote unquote, our movies look like.

00:30:48.620 You had Daryl Morey, right?

00:30:50.520 Houston Rockets general manager.

00:30:52.340 Very innocuous.

00:30:53.520 He just like said on Twitter, solidarity with protesters in Hong Kong.

00:30:57.080 And, you know, why not?

00:30:58.260 Right.

00:30:58.420 I mean, Twitter is even.

00:30:59.740 Why not?

00:31:00.600 How not in America?

00:31:03.400 How do you not side with them?

00:31:04.960 Right.

00:31:05.340 And so why not?

00:31:06.420 But it becomes this huge thing.

00:31:07.860 Right.

00:31:08.080 And so China takes the NBA games off Chinese television.

00:31:11.440 All kinds of NBA owners, NBA players, they're yelling at him.

00:31:14.980 Now you have a situation where, you know, American athletes, American celebrities are all on notice.

00:31:19.920 You can't do this.

00:31:20.760 A couple of years earlier, Mercedes Benz had an ad.

00:31:24.500 They quoted the Dalai Lama in some kind of ad.

00:31:26.980 I mean, what does the Dalai Lama have to do with luxury cars?

00:31:29.740 I don't know.

00:31:30.580 But it's what they wanted to do, right?

00:31:32.980 The Chinese government threw a fit and you get the CEO of Daimler.

00:31:36.460 He's apologizing for this offensive act of quoting, you know, a well-regarded spiritual leader.

00:31:42.760 Lots of people quote him.

00:31:44.160 And that's the world that we are headed for, right?

00:31:47.780 There was this hope that economic integration between the United States and China would spread our values to their shores, that they would want to use the Internet.

00:31:57.560 They would use computers.

00:31:58.940 And Bill Clinton said, and I think a lot of people believe, like, well, you can't censor the Internet, right?

00:32:04.660 It's too wild.

00:32:05.480 It's too open.

00:32:06.360 And we now know that's completely wrong, right?

00:32:08.480 It's an incredibly powerful tool of authoritarian surveillance domestically.

00:32:13.060 And it's created a situation where when our companies depend on that market, they export their values to us.

00:32:21.520 And we should be armed about that, right?

00:32:23.560 It's why population matters and why, you know, the size of the families that we have and the number of immigrants we take in, not tripling the population tomorrow, but planning for growth, right?

00:32:35.440 Planning for success is going to be crucial to maintaining freedom, to maintaining the stuff.

00:32:40.800 Liberals and conservatives, like, we disagree about all kinds of things.

00:32:44.220 But there's nobody, left or right, who thinks you shouldn't be able to say a tweet that the Chinese government doesn't like, right?

00:32:52.260 Everybody was upset about that.

00:32:54.300 They were.

00:32:55.140 You know, it's across the board.

00:32:56.640 And if the cancel culture hadn't come from the left, I might be more apt to agree with you on that.

00:33:05.500 But, you know, look, you look at, like, who's vocal about this genocide happening in Xinjiang, right?

00:33:11.740 I hear conservatives talk about it.

00:33:13.320 I hear liberals talk about it.

00:33:14.760 It's horrible.

00:33:16.000 You know, like we have different values left and right in the United States, but the gap is just not that big.

00:33:21.560 So, let me see if we can agree on this.

00:33:24.960 Maybe you're right.

00:33:26.540 It's just these vocal minorities and these giant corporations that are using slave labor and kowtowing to China. 0.64

00:33:37.720 And, I mean, when, what was it, Disney thanked the province?

00:33:44.140 Thank them for Mulan, right.

00:33:45.700 I mean, are you kidding me?

00:33:47.960 But, look, you know, I mean, capitalism, which I think we probably both support on some level, it's a miraculous thing, right?

00:33:57.620 It is.

00:33:58.080 I mean, you know, the profit motive can be harnessed to do great things.

00:34:02.220 Yes.

00:34:02.840 Unfortunately, it can also.

00:34:05.240 Do bad things.

00:34:06.700 People do bad things for money, right?

00:34:09.440 It is.

00:34:09.760 And they're not even bad people.

00:34:11.040 Adam Smith was absolutely right in his book, Moral Sentiments.

00:34:15.400 Everybody took Wealth of Nations and said, let's run with that. 0.97

00:34:19.220 No, no.

00:34:20.060 Read Moral Sentiments first.

00:34:22.620 If you read Moral Sentiments, then you understand capitalism is a reflection of you as a society.

00:34:29.900 And, you know, we need to think about, you know, how do we deal with that, right?

00:34:34.420 So, today, H&M, right, Swedish company, but they announced they're going to stop using this Xinjiang cotton slave labor in their stuff. 0.89

00:34:43.620 And that's great to see, right?

00:34:44.860 And so, why do they do that?

00:34:46.200 It's not because they're all nice guys.

00:34:48.080 It's because more people have been talking about this in the West, right?

00:34:52.480 There's concern.

00:34:53.100 They want us to shop there.

00:34:55.320 So, that's good.

00:34:56.060 That's important.

00:34:56.600 But one reason why that works, right, is that the U.S. market is a big deal.

00:35:02.000 So, doing things that appeal to American customers makes sense.

00:35:06.420 And that scale, right, that weight between the United States and China is going to be not the only, but one of the drivers in the calculus that businesses from all over the world, whether it's America, whether it's Sweden, whether it's Korea, what they make.

00:35:21.540 And, you know, I don't think we can afford to be so blasé about it, as we have been.

00:35:27.000 The Trump administration is taking some good steps now on Xinjiang, on sanctions. 0.54

00:35:31.940 But the fundamentals really matter.

00:35:34.900 And that's what this book is about, right, is can we spend a little less time fighting with each other?

00:35:41.120 And politicians, right, they want to win elections.

00:35:44.060 One good way to win elections is to kind of pick at the scabs of division inside this society.

00:35:50.180 And it's hard to blame them.

00:35:52.980 They're trying to win.

00:35:54.340 But we don't do great things, right?

00:35:56.620 We don't face down the Soviet Union. 0.64

00:35:58.440 We don't face down Nazi Germany by fighting amongst ourselves. 0.59

00:36:02.680 Yeah.

00:36:02.960 Right.

00:36:03.300 You need leaders.

00:36:04.760 You need statesmen who will try to elevate.

00:36:08.800 And we have not had that recently.

00:36:10.580 And I hope that one good thing that can come out of a more challenging environment is to sort of elevate people's eyes, right?

00:36:18.420 Elevate their vision and see what really matters.

00:36:21.580 I agree with that.

00:36:22.920 And I think that most Americans on both sides are hungry for that.

00:36:28.240 But they don't see it on a reasonable horizon.

00:36:35.820 You know, I mean, do you see, do you, do you, when, when I say, oh, that uplifting politician that's going to get past all this, does one pop to your mind on any side?

00:36:49.900 Look, it's a tough time out there.

00:36:52.040 Yeah, right.

00:36:52.340 You know, I mean, I think, I think, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you.

00:36:56.280 Yeah.

00:36:56.560 I think, but we, but we ebb and flow, you know, a little bit on these things.

00:37:01.000 Right.

00:37:01.120 And I'm, I'm hoping for some, I actually forget which one is ebbing and which one is flowing, but I'm hoping for the good one.

00:37:06.480 Right.

00:37:06.960 And I, and I feel the same way.

00:37:08.940 And that's, that's the, that's the reason why we're having this conversation is because I don't believe we are that far apart.

00:37:17.720 We are, we disagree on a lot of things, but we're not that far apart that you and I couldn't live next door to each other and have perfectly great relationship and have each other over without, you know, being in each other's face.

00:37:32.300 At least I think, because as I have said before, and I think you would agree, look, can you give me nine out of the 10 bill of rights?

00:37:44.880 Can you just give me nine of them?

00:37:46.600 Maybe you disagree with the state's rights or maybe you disagree with the second amendment.

00:37:50.120 Can you give me nine?

00:37:51.600 Can you give me nine of them?

00:37:52.800 I'm good.

00:37:53.480 But it's the, it's the, the rub is, is that the extremes have been, have been grinding us down to where we don't believe we're not fighting for anything real.

00:38:08.760 I mean, I, I want to fight for the constitution and the rights of all men to be equal, all men, and we're not fighting for those things.

00:38:18.060 Well, you know, I mean, look, it's, it's, it's hard to know, you know, social media has been good for, for me and my career.

00:38:25.620 It's been good for a lot of people over the years, but it does encourage extremist voices, extreme ideas, right?

00:38:33.280 It's not a place for discussion.

00:38:36.240 It's not a place for compromise.

00:38:37.960 It encourages very sort of micro tribes, dunking, things like that. 0.82

00:38:42.040 And we've been fragmenting, you know, elements of our media landscape for a long time, right?

00:38:47.080 Cable news and, and, and talk radio and now onto the internet.

00:38:51.980 And, you know, it's, it's risky.

00:38:53.640 It's been informative to me, right?

00:38:56.100 If you come out with a book, they, the publicists, like, they want you to go anywhere you can go, right?

00:39:01.520 And it's gotten me a little bit out of my comfort zone in terms of whose shows I'm on and who I'm talking to.

00:39:07.000 And that in and of itself is a really educational experience.

00:39:10.740 You know, I think it's not something that a lot of us in the media do as much as we really should, right?

00:39:17.000 It's a little easier.

00:39:18.660 You don't have to prep as much if you just talk to people you agree with all the time or do stuff like that.

00:39:24.720 But it's, you know, it's educational.

00:39:27.660 And, you know, you were talking about neighbors, right?

00:39:29.740 One of the things that's changed is that we're more sorted geographically than how we are, right?

00:39:36.120 I live in a big city.

00:39:38.720 It's a very diverse neighborhood on one level, right?

00:39:41.340 We've got lots of African Americans, lots of immigrants from Central America, lots of LGBT folks, regular straight white guys like me.

00:39:49.720 But it's all Democrats, right?

00:39:51.880 And it's like, you can count, right?

00:39:53.580 You just know, right?

00:39:54.880 There's no Republicans living here in the circle.

00:39:57.060 And, you know, that's too bad because when you deal with your neighbors, right, you talk to them about stuff like, how can we clean the trash up in the playground?

00:40:07.680 What are we going to do about these potholes, right?

00:40:09.780 Practical things where people work together, not ideological things, not things that inspire people to scream.

00:40:15.860 And it's an educational experience across certain kinds of divides.

00:40:20.160 But there's an important divide that, like, it doesn't exist in this neighborhood.

00:40:24.060 And so it's missing, right?

00:40:25.440 And it's easy to get into stereotypes, things like that.

00:40:28.960 My wife's parents, they live in rural Texas, out in Kirk County in the Hillcars.

00:40:34.600 And it's so different, right?

00:40:35.820 I mean, it's a very different lifestyle, very different people.

00:40:38.660 Everybody drives big trucks.

00:40:40.100 You know, they've all got guns.

00:40:42.420 Nice folks.

00:40:43.100 You know, it's good to spend time out there.

00:40:44.820 You get to know different people, people who have their preconceptions about me and where we live.

00:40:50.760 I've got my own preconceptions about them and where they live.

00:40:53.420 But there's no substitute for that kind of practical experience of dealing with people on a social level, dealing with people on a personal level, rather than just sort of politics all the time.

00:41:04.800 Yeah, and we don't get that often enough.

00:41:09.020 I mean, I feel that I am not as sharp intellectually living in Texas as I was when I was in Manhattan.

00:41:18.500 And the only reason why I was ground every day, no matter where I went, man, I had to be razor sharp because I wasn't exactly popular there.

00:41:29.300 And here in Texas, while it is more balanced than people might think, especially in the Dallas Fort Worth area where I am.

00:41:37.180 It's still much more conservative.

00:41:41.640 It's much it's much less confrontational for me.

00:41:45.180 And I don't enjoy that as much.

00:41:47.440 I like honest people.

00:41:50.060 I enjoy going to Silicon Valley and talking to people who are real libertarians, so they don't really have a dog in the fight.

00:42:00.980 And they're thinking gigantic thoughts.

00:42:04.920 That's that's what inspires.

00:42:07.280 That's what America used to be. 0.97

00:42:09.720 Gigantic thoughts.

00:42:11.320 And people would stand around and say, you can't do that.

00:42:14.400 And they're like, oh, yeah, let's do it.

00:42:17.020 And a group of people would do it.

00:42:21.140 No, I mean, and look that, you know, big thoughts.

00:42:23.900 Right. That's that's what the book is about.

00:42:25.420 That's right there in the subtitle.

00:42:27.140 And I thought, you know, I was watching President Trump's nomination speech, his acceptance speech a few weeks ago at the convention.

00:42:34.660 And he has some whole riff in there about pioneers and covered wagons and going to the moon.

00:42:40.680 And I was like, oh, man, like those exact things are in my book.

00:42:44.400 That's those illusions are right in the last the last chapter.

00:42:48.480 But, you know, that's good.

00:42:49.680 It's you see something people have in common.

00:42:51.480 Right. And that's something that I think a lot of us look back to aspirational.

00:42:56.720 Right. Not that like everything was better in 1969, because God knows they had some very, very big problems back then.

00:43:03.280 Yeah. But they did have some really high aspirations.

00:43:07.400 Right. Like they were going to take on crazy challenges and they were going to meet them.

00:43:12.500 So many places I've gone, so many shows I've gone on to talk about this book.

00:43:15.640 People want to say to me, well, if we had a billion people, wouldn't there be more traffic jams?

00:43:21.140 And, you know, there probably would be.

00:43:23.000 Stop. But stop flying over 90 percent of the country. 0.55

00:43:29.120 If you drive it, it's pretty wide open.

00:43:32.860 Exactly. There's lots of space.

00:43:34.380 And also like, OK, is a great nation.

00:43:36.800 Are we going to say, OK, we're going to be a number two power in the world?

00:43:39.640 We're going to be a second class country because we can't handle the traffic jams.

00:43:43.220 Right. Like, let's think about it.

00:43:44.500 Let's build some express lanes on the roads.

00:43:47.280 Right. Let's let's get a train in the big, dense coastal cities and let's get some more people into the wide open spaces in the middle of the country.

00:43:54.620 Right. Like we can handle this.

00:43:56.100 If we could go to the moon, like we can handle traffic jams because the population density we're talking about, even with a billion people, that's a lot of people.

00:44:04.280 But we'd still be about half as dense as Germany, maybe a third as dense as the UK.

00:44:09.220 Like we can handle it. Right.

00:44:10.840 But it's a question of like, can we set a big goal and then can we think, OK, what are the problems here?

00:44:15.400 But they're practical problems. And how can we address those problems?

00:44:18.480 But the problems aren't what they were even two years ago.

00:44:22.480 I mean, covid has shown you don't have to live on top of each other.

00:44:27.880 The Internet. Look at this. We couldn't have done this at this quality two years ago unless you were on satellite.

00:44:34.460 You know, you don't have to live in these big urban centers.

00:44:40.600 You can live wherever you want as long as there's a job there for you.

00:44:45.920 There's a job, you know, and you're you're based.

00:44:48.600 You can base your work online.

00:44:51.300 You can live anywhere.

00:44:53.780 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

00:44:54.680 I mean, we'll have to see where this technology goes now that everyone's experimenting with it.

00:44:58.720 Right. It's it's been difficult in some settings.

00:45:01.600 I've got a kindergartner and they're trying to do, you know, school over Zoom for five year olds.

00:45:07.060 And I don't think that's going to work. Right.

00:45:09.100 But so much of what you and I do, like, yeah, like, you know, I'm doing great stuff on the Internet.

00:45:13.460 Frankly, like I've been able to do more shows that I think I'm in D.C., right, which is big media hub.

00:45:19.120 But still, there's lots of people like you're in Texas.

00:45:22.280 I was Ben Shapiro.

00:45:23.420 He's in California because he's moving to Tennessee soon, New York, Seattle, on the phone with people in the U.K.

00:45:31.020 Like, it's great. Right.

00:45:32.120 And we are developing, I think, the ability to have a more decentralized economy, which is going to mean less.

00:45:40.400 We've had these growth choke points right in the Bay Area, just on the Hudson River.

00:45:45.580 Right. How many people can get from New Jersey into Manhattan?

00:45:49.280 That's a really tough problem. Right.

00:45:51.140 But it's a big country. Like, we don't need to let those Hudson River tunnels, like, constrain everything that we can do.

00:45:58.440 And I do think, you know, we're seeing COVID has been horrible, obviously.

00:46:02.700 But faced with a really big problem, we do have some resources of ingenuity that I think we might not have realized we have.

00:46:10.940 When you think of your futures, you think of goals or dreams.

00:46:15.900 Dreams will get you nowhere.

00:46:17.460 Goals and planning your future.

00:46:21.000 That helps you accomplish your dreams.

00:46:25.620 No one ever starts with small dreams.

00:46:27.800 And that's why you start there.

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00:47:36.700 What does America look like on its current path in 10 years?

00:47:42.860 I mean, it's not great, right?

00:47:44.700 If we keep having a politics that's dominated by culture war infighting, we are just not going to tackle big issues.

00:47:54.640 We're going to keep having fewer children because people can't handle the childcare needs. 0.77

00:48:00.020 We're going to not address environmental concerns.

00:48:02.660 We're going to not address international concerns.

00:48:05.640 We're, you know, I'm hopeful nonetheless.

00:48:08.140 Like, we are a great center of innovation, a great center of talent, a great center of business.

00:48:13.060 That strength should not go away.

00:48:15.620 But I don't think we're taking as much advantage of that as we could be, right?

00:48:19.960 Like, we are making a lot of money at Google and Facebook.

00:48:23.480 But we're not necessarily using that money or using that technology to really solve problems that impact most people's lives, right?

00:48:33.600 Like, it's a privilege to be in a country that has so many internationally successful businesses.

00:48:39.660 That's better than the opposite.

00:48:41.960 But, you know, one of the things you saw when Trump was out on the campaign trail and people responded to him is that most communities were not feeling the benefits of that kind of thing.

00:48:52.060 And now that he's been president, I think he's given voice to a lot of people's concerns, but he hasn't really solved them, right?

00:49:01.660 He's a symbol.

00:49:02.980 People see him as a champion, but has the issue, right?

00:49:08.880 Has the thing that was making people feel left out really changed yet?

00:49:13.920 And I don't think it has, right?

00:49:15.420 There's more we can do on a tangible level rather than a symbolic level to have an inclusive country.

00:49:21.740 And we see now, you know, so many African-Americans feel that they're not cut in, right?

00:49:26.680 And some of the policy ideas that come out of the Black Lives Matter world, you know, defunding police, I'm 100% against. 0.97

00:49:33.880 And I don't think that's what most people want.

00:49:35.900 I don't think it really addresses those concerns.

00:49:38.220 At the same time, you have incredibly high poverty rates.

00:49:40.940 You have people who are saying, but look, we don't have broadband internet in my neighborhood, right?

00:49:45.420 And I hear that in inner city neighborhoods, and I hear it in rural neighborhoods.

00:49:49.100 Very, a lot of cultural distance between those people, but a similar issue, right?

00:49:53.540 And like, is our government doing what it takes to get everybody like hooked in and loaded on to the American dream and American possibility?

00:50:02.700 And it isn't, right?

00:50:03.880 And instead of being angry, right, and giving expression to that anger and saying who to blame for this, we ought to try to fix it so people can be satisfied.

00:50:16.420 I agree with you, but I don't know if you can in today's political world, who is incentivized to fix it?

00:50:25.000 I mean, I'd love to tie all their salaries to bonuses.

00:50:29.100 The country does well on these metrics.

00:50:31.640 You get this.

00:50:32.920 The country is doing horribly on these metrics.

00:50:35.680 No, you don't get anything.

00:50:38.080 And, you know, all of us get together and figure out the metrics because all they're doing now is they're measuring success on if the R's or the D's are elected and how long they can stay and how much money they can make for themselves.

00:50:53.600 Um, I see very, I mean, there are, they are there in on both sides that really do want to make a difference, but that's not Washington.

00:51:03.280 So how do you, how do you empower the country to do it without having to regulate it, to do it because it's the right thing to do?

00:51:16.140 Everyone in Washington is so frustrated and like, maybe not everyone, but so many people I speak to.

00:51:22.220 I speak to Democrats in Congress.

00:51:24.440 I speak to Republicans in Congress and so many of them say the same thing.

00:51:28.000 Like, we don't do any real work here.

00:51:30.240 Everything is led by the party leaders.

00:51:32.360 All I do all day is make fundraising phone calls.

00:51:34.880 And I do, I say to them, right?

00:51:36.360 I say to them, it's like, well, why don't you do something about it?

00:51:39.680 Yeah, right.

00:51:40.440 Right?

00:51:40.940 Right.

00:51:41.180 Like, you need to speak to some people who are similarly frustrated on the other side.

00:51:47.780 Amen.

00:51:48.220 And then, and then both of you need to agree to prioritize because there's different things,

00:51:53.240 right?

00:51:53.420 So all the Democrats have one view on abortion.

00:51:56.200 All the Republicans have the other view, right?

00:51:58.040 And as long as you prioritize that topic or whatever else divides them, you can't get

00:52:03.360 anything done because you say, well, we're deferring to the leaders, we're deferring

00:52:06.220 to the leaders.

00:52:06.960 Now, you have to say, look, what are we both angry about?

00:52:09.800 We are both angry about how tightly the leadership controls the floor, about how little real amendments

00:52:15.820 there are out there.

00:52:16.720 And you have to say, look, we are going to make that our priority.

00:52:20.140 We're going to say we will give floor control to whoever will meet our demands here.

00:52:25.120 And there's no substitute in politics for leadership.

00:52:29.340 I read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt a few months ago, and it was interesting.

00:52:34.880 I hadn't known, you know, I'd known about him.

00:52:37.680 I went to the Natural History Museum in New York when I was growing up.

00:52:40.640 But what a coincidence it was, you know, he was never meant to be president, right?

00:52:45.220 The Republican Party bosses elevated him to the vice presidency because they thought he

00:52:50.200 was too annoying.

00:52:51.200 And then McKinley died.

00:52:52.740 And so he becomes president by coincidence, and he chooses to exercise that unique moment

00:53:00.280 in a visionary way, right?

00:53:02.300 He could have said, well, the bosses didn't really like me, but now that I'm here, the

00:53:07.200 easiest thing to do is just go along, get along.

00:53:09.560 And we could have continued with stalemate, gilded age politics forever.

00:53:13.040 But he chose to act as a disruptor.

00:53:16.300 And it made a really big difference to the trajectory of American politics.

00:53:20.220 And we just have not had that happen, right?

00:53:24.180 So Donald Trump, you know, he reminds me of Roosevelt in certain ways, that he was not

00:53:29.900 the person who conservative leaders wanted.

00:53:33.700 He was not the person who Republican Party leaders wanted.

00:53:36.600 He had a connection with people.

00:53:39.360 He used new communications technologies.

00:53:41.180 He's a brash New York guy.

00:53:43.640 But in office, he has, he's, you know, he's done his tweets.

00:53:48.760 He's like, he's done his antics, but he's governed on a policy level, very, very conventional

00:53:54.360 way, because that's the easiest way for him.

00:53:56.820 Because Washington's tough, right?

00:53:58.240 It's like, it's a snake pit out there.

00:53:59.860 And I, to an extent, understand why he just kind of felt, look, I'm going to do what Mitch

00:54:05.260 says.

00:54:05.700 I'm going to do what Paul Ryan says.

00:54:07.120 I'm going to do a big corporate tax cut.

00:54:08.900 But he's got to know, right, that's not why people voted for him, right?

00:54:13.700 It wasn't because they wanted Mitt Romney's economic policies, right?

00:54:18.160 People who, people who hadn't been voting Republican before said they liked the idea of a kind of

00:54:24.560 a strong cultural politics, maybe too far for my taste, at least to their taste, right?

00:54:30.960 But they, but they wanted a brand of conservatism that would take care of the economic needs.

00:54:38.900 of working class Americans, right?

00:54:43.140 And Trump has not, like on his healthcare stuff, he hasn't done that on his tax stuff.

00:54:48.600 He hasn't prioritized that he hasn't prioritized middle class and working class families.

00:54:53.460 And he should have, right?

00:54:54.680 He just should have displayed a little more imagination, a little more creativity.

00:54:58.820 And there's been stirrings of that in the Republican caucus.

00:55:02.000 You know, Josh Hawley talks about it.

00:55:03.980 Marco Rubio talks about it a little.

00:55:05.800 I hope next time we can get a little more polish and detail there.

00:55:11.720 You know, so Biden, maybe I think will be the next president.

00:55:14.420 He's an interesting guy, right?

00:55:15.560 He's a throwback, like literally an old guy.

00:55:18.480 He practices a style of politics that rubs a lot of young left wing people the wrong way.

00:55:24.720 But it was very popular.

00:55:26.180 It turned out to be like lots of Democrats, working class, African American, Latino Democrats.

00:55:31.220 That's what they wanted was this kind of, you know, JFK, RFK style, back to the future Democratic Party.

00:55:38.400 And can he deliver on that, right?

00:55:40.460 You know, I hold out some hope.

00:55:42.760 I understand why some people are skeptical.

00:55:44.860 And, you know, we're going to have to see what happens.

00:55:46.560 I'm not even going to I'm not even going to touch politics with you.

00:55:50.380 I'm just going to let it let it sit where where it was.

00:55:55.920 I appreciate your your willingness to come on.

00:55:59.780 And I know you're trying to sell a book.

00:56:02.100 But there are many places that I don't go when I have a book to sell that I just won't cross the threshold.

00:56:10.720 I've been I've been in that lion's den long enough to learn you don't win if somebody is not open minded.

00:56:21.020 You just don't win.

00:56:23.020 And I.

00:56:24.800 I am impressed with many of the things that you have written in the book, because I think you believe it and work for it.

00:56:38.200 And I think that.

00:56:41.960 There are there is a problem in America where.

00:56:48.080 And Jonathan Haidt talks about this, but our language is so different now that the way we express ourselves sometimes just set the other side off.

00:56:59.760 And we have to have patience and listen to one another.

00:57:03.640 I am in complete agreement that a billion Americans would be a great goal, that more legal immigration would be really good to be able to find the people who know why they want to live here or what's wrong with the place that they're currently living at.

00:57:27.820 And why this is such an advantage, I think it would be a game changer for us, but it would require us to not only look at the problems, but also then pick yourself back up and say, OK.

00:57:42.740 But look at the assets we have and let's learn from our mistakes and let's just go out and win.

00:57:52.360 Just go out and win one for all of mankind, quite honestly.

00:57:57.200 You know, go like it.

00:57:58.540 Going to the moon was not just an American thing.

00:58:01.920 That was a that was a success for all humanity.

00:58:07.280 Absolutely.

00:58:08.320 Matthew, thank you very much.

00:58:10.300 Thank you.

00:58:10.740 I appreciate it.

00:58:11.720 The name of the book is One Billion Americans, The Case for Thinking Bigger.

00:58:21.640 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

00:58:40.740 Thank you.

00:58:47.620 We'll see you next time.

00:58:47.800 We'll see you next time.

00:58:49.300 We'll see you next time.

00:58:50.160 We'll see you next time.

The Glenn Beck Program - September 19, 2020

Ep 82 ｜ Vox Co-Founder & Glenn Agree： 'We Aren't That Far Apart' ｜ Matthew Yglesias ｜ The Glenn Beck Podcast

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