The Golden One - The Great EU Debate – Abolish or Reform？ Keith Woods vs Martin Sellner

00:00:00.000 so i have two distinguished gentlemen with me two titans of european nationalism i don't think

00:00:07.200 anyone needs an introduction so uh gentlemen i'm very happy and proud to have you here a warm

00:00:12.240 welcome to you thank you very much for the invitation all right so before getting into it

00:00:21.600 i will let martin have the the opening uh presentation of his um of his take on the

00:00:26.960 matter and as you see in the um the title we're gonna discuss and debate whether to strive for

00:00:33.840 abolishing the eu or reforming the eu so just in the chat i have instructed my moderator to try to

00:00:42.000 keep the chat as clean as possible so no no foul language no slurs no nothing approaching hate

00:00:49.200 speech or anything like that so we're all civilized ladies and gentlemen here so we need to um yeah

00:00:55.440 reflect that in in the chat so all that said i will let martin now take the stage and um yeah

00:01:03.680 martin make your case for uh abolishing the eu yeah first of all thank you very much for

00:01:11.680 inviting both of us and making this possible i think maybe the last debate in the old year and

00:01:18.880 the whole thing is not so much in the center of attention anymore but it was a big debate among

00:01:24.160 the european right with several positions and i also read the and retweeted the article by

00:01:29.200 keith woods which i think is very good but i have a slightly different position which i want to

00:01:33.760 summarize now quickly and then we get into debates so i think important is that we are not opponents

00:01:41.200 we are i think on the same page of most things and i think we should agree on three core truths or

00:01:48.000 at least i hope we can agree on them and debate on this basis so demography is the highest value

00:01:55.120 of any state policies can change states can change forms of government can change but

00:02:00.160 demography is the most important thing the ethnocultural continuity number one number two

00:02:05.200 the great replacement is the greatest threat at the moment to this ethnocultural continuity because

00:02:13.520 it is irreversible and number three the absolute priority of any policy any strategy any idea

00:02:20.560 ideology has to be re-migration which is the solution to the great replacement so democracy 0.98

00:02:26.000 is the highest value great placement as the biggest threat and then re-migration as the

00:02:30.720 absolute priority and i think that's the could be maybe a common basis and if this is the framework

00:02:38.000 on the basis then i think it's quite clear that um if you look at the whole situation a big picture

00:02:43.520 right now exiting the european union or abolishing it all together when enough nations exit creating

00:02:50.400 something new besides it maybe even together with um non-european powers and nations should at least

00:02:58.880 be a possibility and should be at least be an open option and any damage it does to economy

00:03:05.760 or geopolitical sovereignty would be worth it if it speeds up the process for re-migration

00:03:13.440 before i will give it to keith i want to also clear away three misunderstandings

00:03:19.200 first i don't claim that the european union is the sole cause of mass migration

00:03:23.360 we have clear proof of that norway and the uk before and after brexit so progressivism

00:03:30.080 this anti-white anti-european hatred and mass migration it's not a conditio sine qua non the

00:03:36.800 european union and obviously if we exited or if it's abolished that's not the magic wand we still

00:03:42.240 have a lot of issues and problems but the european union is definitely enforcing those rules and is

00:03:48.080 an factor a very important factor of mass migration especially for smaller states like my own one

00:03:54.160 austria for example now point number two i'm not obsessed with abolishing the european union for

00:03:59.840 its own sake my position is a bit simpler more strategic i think um as i said before exiting

00:04:06.560 the european union must be a legitimate option for european patriots so you're not anti-european

00:04:11.760 you're not a trader when you talk about that and i think in the moment if you surrender this point

00:04:19.200 it is threat of exiting and abolishing the european union because we say it's un-european

00:04:23.600 and it's geopolitically not correct even think about it then we use the most important tool we

00:04:29.280 have in pushing for reform of the european union so i think even the idea is very important as a

00:04:34.240 threat if you want to achieve the goal of reforming it and then third i fully believe that the

00:04:40.880 european greater space needs to be organized and united in a way we need to cooperate economically

00:04:47.520 on the level of security it was on border security that's true and i don't claim that on

00:04:54.960 the current state of global con concurrence with the space race ai etc europe can become a splintered

00:05:03.200 mosaic of small little nations i think this will not work in the long term and i think we have to 1.00

00:05:08.560 cooperate but the european union is failing on all of those levels especially on the level of

00:05:15.600 migration and freedom of speech so in the end i think it's way more likely at the moment to have

00:05:23.600 right wing victories across europe which could in a scenario a very possible scenario

00:05:30.080 leave the european union those nations form something else create bilateral

00:05:37.200 operations with different powers create a remigration act and then pressure the european

00:05:42.000 union even stronger to reform here and to wait to for a reform of the whole european union

00:05:48.560 if both work at the same time achieving re-migration and reforming the european union

00:05:53.040 i'm very open for it and i would be happy about it but i think at the moment with this priority

00:05:57.840 of re-migration in mind we should at least consider and support other ideas as exiting

00:06:04.000 the european union together exiting the european union or creating something else abolishing it

00:06:10.560 all together so that's in summary in short my statement and i'm looking forward to debate about

00:06:17.040 this issue all right well i have a brief written statement uh i may go over the time martin used

00:06:27.040 but uh he can he can take it back in the response um this is basically a summary of my position that

00:06:32.080 i argued in the previous couple of essays so obviously the topic is should the eu be abolished

00:06:37.760 are reformed and as martin said you know we agree on the fundamentals demographic change immigration

00:06:43.200 free speech has been a big issue recently with the digital services act um but i argued that

00:06:49.040 the position of outright abolition that martin is calling for is strategically mistaken it's

00:06:54.880 politically unviable and ultimately taking this position i believe will be self-defeating for

00:07:00.880 anyone like us who cares about sovereignty identity destiny of the european people

00:07:07.440 so in response to martin and others when this topic came up a couple weeks ago i

00:07:11.600 wrote an essay abolished eu not so fast you can read that on my sub stack keith what's up pub

00:07:17.680 and this will basically be a summary of the arguments i laid out there so i started out with

00:07:23.600 just a political reality and to start grounded this in fact and the fundamental fact is that

00:07:28.640 abolition of the EU is unpopular it's not a majority position anywhere in Europe across the

00:07:34.800 continent most citizens believe their countries have benefited from EU membership and even if

00:07:39.920 they are dissatisfied with that direction large numbers think it's flawed but very few think it

00:07:45.840 should cease to exist even among right-wing voters support for exit is still a minority position in

00:07:52.240 most countries and even our own likely voters and supporters anti-immigration populists generally

00:07:58.400 don't favor outright abolishing or leaving the eu rather they just want to roll back its worst

00:08:03.680 aspect and this matters because as i argue my essay we have limited political capital and we

00:08:09.520 have limited time in many european countries like martin zone austria pro-remigration populists are

00:08:16.160 the most popular parties now and they're on the precipice of state power the abolitionists want

00:08:21.840 us to attach what's becoming a very popular idea national border security remigration to a very

00:08:28.800 unpopular idea meaning we will have to spend more and more of our time and energy defending this

00:08:34.320 less popular idea and its viability instead of focusing on what we know we can win

00:08:40.880 so nationalist movements that attach themselves to an eu exit risk discrediting the broader

00:08:45.760 nationalist project by tying it to an objective that voters see as reckless or unrealistic and

00:08:52.560 a failed attempt at abolition wouldn't actually weaken brussels it would strengthen it if we

00:08:57.920 allowed the eu to present itself as the defender of stability against ideological extremism and

00:09:03.760 economic instability and we can argue about the details of brexit but i think it seems clear to

00:09:09.840 most that exiting the eu has led to an economic decline for britain and that's without even the

00:09:15.360 benefit of stricter border enforcement and this was after a process of exit that dragged on for

00:09:21.920 years and has actually left most people in the uk now supporting rejoining the eu so the only

00:09:28.800 example we actually have of a country doing this hurts the case of the abolitionists but my argument

00:09:36.000 isn't just about this being a tough sell uh you know obviously if it was if it was good in principle

00:09:42.000 we should pursue it but i think abolition misidentifies the source of europe's most

00:09:47.280 serious problems particularly mass immigration and martin alluded to it there it's it's obviously

00:09:51.840 not chiefly at the eu and the eu did not force west european governments to pursue mass migration

00:09:59.520 our national elites chose that path willingly enthusiastically and immigration policy is still

00:10:05.760 in practice largely national and where governments have wanted to restrict migration they've done so

00:10:12.400 you look at cases like hungary and poland and that's inside the eu framework and where they've

00:10:18.000 failed it's not because of it's well it is because of domestic political coalitions and constraints

00:10:25.360 rather than eu directives typically and here again i think the example of brexit is helpful

00:10:31.200 britain left the eu and immigration didn't fall it actually rose uh to record levels not only did

00:10:37.600 it rise but the type of immigrants changed instead of importing eu migrants the uk has switched to

00:10:43.120 importing millions of mostly south asian immigrants which probably everyone watching

00:10:48.080 will agree has been a disastrous change of policy um third the eu is not just a switch you can turn

00:10:56.880 enough there's a fundamental kind of logistical problem here and i argue that the abolitionist

00:11:01.520 position is presenting too simple a picture of what exit would look like the eu is a deeply

00:11:08.720 abetted legal regulatory economic structure it goes through all national administrations at all

00:11:15.680 levels courts markets regulations and abolishing it would not be a clean break it'd be long chaotic

00:11:24.000 uncertain process stretching over decades i think in most countries and there'll be huge

00:11:28.720 transitional costs and unpredictable consequences uh so that may be a price worth paying if it was

00:11:35.600 necessary to reverse course immigration but i don't think it is and this is the the key kind 0.99

00:11:42.800 of strategic point for nationalists when we approach this question is as i argue my essay

00:11:48.000 the power that you need to abolish the eu is the same power you could use to reform it in the

00:11:52.560 direction we want if national disparities across europe were strong enough to dismantle the union

00:11:57.600 they'd already be strong enough to fundamentally reshape it already there's a growing populist 0.72

00:12:02.720 faction in the european parliament and it has been able to reverse some of the eu's excesses

00:12:07.360 on migration and environmentalism and politics fundamentally is the art of the possible and the

00:12:13.360 choice we present shouldn't be between using power to change institutions or just refusing to engage

00:12:20.480 until the institutions are perfect if we do that we're effectively surrendering power altogether

00:12:27.440 now obviously reform as i'm arguing for it doesn't mean accepting the eu as it is

00:12:31.840 you know again me and martin probably agree on 90 plus of the problems with the current eu

00:12:37.680 but it means forcing it to change direction and that's why in the subsequent essay i laid out

00:12:43.120 what this could look like some guiding principles like subsidiarity um calling back competencies to

00:12:50.480 the national level we can in the european commission restoring vetoes all things that

00:12:56.320 have somewhat happened just by force of national governments in the last few years

00:13:01.120 so a confederal europe that i'm proposing one that coordinates where coordination is necessary

00:13:06.560 is not of a trail of nationalism it's just a what i see is a realistic expression of it under

00:13:12.400 modern conditions uh and so i finally i'd say the abolitionist position just misunderstands

00:13:19.920 timing on this we're not really in a revolutionary moment we are making great strides great growth

00:13:25.680 metapolitically but this is a slow realignment and the most important task for people like me

00:13:31.040 and merton is to win national governments to change norms to alter incentives for politicians

00:13:37.440 and not to risk all the gains we've made on this and merton has been a big part of that

00:13:42.480 on demanding an institutional collapse that the public just doesn't want at present so if the

00:13:50.620 goal is real sovereignty real demographic continuity uh national self-government

00:13:56.000 abolition isn't the best path and it's asking us to risk all the progress we have made

00:14:01.280 on a gamble which i think is likely to remain unpopular so let's instead focus on a realistic

00:14:09.060 path where we can direct the eu under national stewardship from multiple uh multiple states

00:14:15.120 within the eu in fulfilling its proper role which should be serving the european people

00:14:19.580 can shall i respond or perfect i'm here echo awesome just one quick question my one of my

00:14:37.180 main arguments do you or don't you think that talking about or keeping open the option of

00:14:43.080 exiting the european union because exiting and abolishing are not the same thing but at least

00:14:46.840 exiting the european union temporarily would be a very important lever in creating pressure

00:14:54.040 on the european union for reform uh i think to a degree that's true and the eu did kind of roll

00:15:04.840 back some of the centralization because of brexit and the kind of populist moment that was happening

00:15:10.680 with the uk but i think it's it's too simplistic to treat it like you know we can just exit and

00:15:17.880 then re-enter when conditions change because i mean it's i think it's like a 10-year process

00:15:23.720 for most countries you know it's there's no clean break here right you have all of the

00:15:28.200 the legislative hurdles i mean the uk basically just adopted eu law as national law because it

00:15:33.960 was too too complex to to change all of these things on exit uh there were unique conditions

00:15:39.080 about the uk it had its own central bank its own currency it never really integrated into the u

00:15:44.200 the way other countries did so i mean it could be a bargaining chip but it's not a very realistic

00:15:50.200 bargaining chip and you're still going to an electorate presenting this as you know an equally

00:15:56.280 good option to exit whereas i think most people will judge quite rightly that it would be

00:16:02.760 economically ruinous and if we get to a point where we have nationalist pro-remigration parties 0.66

00:16:09.480 in power um if that gamble fails they've basically squandered their political capital you know if if

00:16:17.080 if if austria decides we're going to temporarily exit with italy or something um and you have 10

00:16:22.840 years of of economic chaos and a failure to to build something lasting there and then the left

00:16:28.360 to come back into power i think that effectively discredits the the nationalist movement for a

00:16:33.300 generation after that so it's it's you know in theory is is the threat of leaving something that

00:16:39.520 you can use against eu elites i mean yes but even there you basically need a large amount of the

00:16:45.640 bloc together to do that to make it a viable threat because no one really takes seriously you

00:16:51.780 know if austria poland leave um it's just going to serve as a great example for the eu technocrats

00:16:57.340 when their economies collapse a couple years after and some pro-U party comes back into government.

00:17:05.180 Yeah, I agree with that, but let's take just an experiment of thought.

00:17:10.380 We have a right-wing government in Austria, which is heavily blocked by the European Union when it

00:17:14.460 comes to reforming freedom of speech and starting re-migration, because that's the case. The European 0.99

00:17:19.900 Union obviously is not the main, like the one who started it, but it's a very important factor.

00:17:26.540 just look at all the fines poll that has to pay hungary has to pay european union is german using

00:17:31.820 german money austrian money as well to push everywhere for progressivism hdpq plus rights

00:17:37.980 open borders so it's a very very negative factor it's kind of a like a suicide engine for the

00:17:43.340 european people that's what it became and if we had a right-wing government in austria which again

00:17:49.420 would be sanctioned and hindered by the current european union and we have to go like take the

00:17:55.580 current state of affairs and then this country of austria creates a union within the euro

00:18:01.660 union maybe the intermarium you can call it whatever you want with a few different states

00:18:05.900 and they do what joe calls the jugexit they just exit certain parts of european

00:18:13.020 legislature so they don't accept for example the european union's authority in terms of migration

00:18:20.780 policy anymore at the same time they create bilateral agreements trade agreements with

00:18:26.220 russia america different powers obviously detrimental for the european greater space

00:18:30.220 but this would make them in a way independent so this would give them the financial backing to do

00:18:34.940 that and at the same time they create a remigration alliance they push for a rwanda plan which they

00:18:41.580 pay themselves maybe greece will also join italy might also join this remigration alliance and

00:18:46.700 and then those countries could effectively immediately and very quickly stop the Great

00:18:51.340 Replacement and start mass remigration. So that would be a very viable solution. And in this 1.00

00:18:56.620 scenario, when this would be a possibility, saying no, we don't do this because of sovereignty,

00:19:01.340 because of European Union, because of solidarity, would go against our common base of the argument

00:19:07.560 because it would delay remigration. It would cause further demographic damage. So what I say

00:19:14.120 is there is a possible scenario and it's not that unlikely where leaving exiting the european union

00:19:20.600 might cause economic damage yeah but it might speed up re-migration and i think this is something

00:19:27.640 we have to talk about and i think if also with this uh thought experiment refuted your point

00:19:32.600 that if we have the power to abolish the european union then we have the power to reform it no that

00:19:39.000 is not the case in this example that i've just pointed out it might still be that germany which

00:19:43.080 is the european union financially german money is controlling the european union and is destroying

00:19:47.560 and dragging all of europe down with the crazy ideology that germany still would be left-wing

00:19:53.160 and i to end with think if this would be done obviously we keep the euro obviously we stay in

00:19:58.040 the whole um currency and economic union if it would kick us out three or four nations then the

00:20:04.120 euro would crumble so they couldn't dare to do that and if you would do this then i would sure

00:20:09.080 i'm sure this would put so much pressure on the european union that they would also quickly

00:20:14.440 reform and perform quicker than if we did not do that so i think this thought experiment really

00:20:20.120 shows that it's easier and obviously it's easier to just exit and reform this big and huge structure

00:20:27.000 well one thing is since brexit i mean one of the lessons the eu elites kind of took away from that

00:20:32.280 is they see it as they made a mistake allowing for uh cherry picking of which aspects of the

00:20:38.360 the EU Britain wanted because you know they were able to resist customs union and the ECB and the

00:20:44.800 eurozone and so on and keep a lot of law around customs that other countries didn't and then that

00:20:51.760 made it very easy for them to exit compared to other countries and it made it a much more

00:20:56.420 viable populist position and so the EU has kind of reoriented itself to take a stricter stance

00:21:03.500 on that kind of cherry picking so as it would concern you know leaving but still getting the

00:21:08.700 benefits of the free trade the eu offers um i don't think that's really going to be a viable

00:21:15.020 path and of course the eu elites are going to see the game that's being played there and work to

00:21:19.500 stifle that as well sorry if four nations or five nations will do it at the same time among them

00:21:25.980 nations maybe also denmark who are contributors i think with the uk it was a bit different you know

00:21:31.100 but they've all been doing their own thing a lot of countries also were happy that they would leave

00:21:36.540 but um i think if uh if this is coordinated then i think the european union would have

00:21:42.940 no choice than to leave these countries in the currency union because if they would not do this

00:21:47.980 then the euro will totally break down and it would have just a small little ramp european union i

00:21:52.540 think like just look at this thought experiment i think even just thinking about it floating it

00:21:58.220 working towards it and then creating kind of alternative european union which is

00:22:02.860 then really based on european ethno-cultural identity which can then from the scratch scratch

00:22:08.700 create something way better also in the in the in the idea because the european union has a

00:22:13.740 universalistic anti-ethnocultural dna it's the anti-imperialistic empire as bach also said

00:22:20.700 they only think about human humanity it's a blueprint for the world state and when they

00:22:25.900 say now they want to defend europe and european values they don't mean europe they mean universalism

00:22:31.260 liberalism progressivism and they want to take over they want to take over the white man's

00:22:35.660 burden they want to become the world police right now and they want to spread the west which means

00:22:41.180 anti-white diversity ideology and i think creating something outside which in neutral could be this

00:22:46.860 new european union would speed up the reform process so that's that's my point and i also

00:22:51.900 think like reforming the eu means changing germany i think if german german pays money you know if

00:22:58.620 germany still is left thing occupied uh territory and i'm afraid that germany will change very very

00:23:06.300 late stage of the whole european reconquista but if germany still pays the money and attaches to

00:23:13.260 this money you have to implement drag queen story times you have to open the borders you have to um

00:23:19.580 like take this amount of refugees it will be very hard to reform the european union 1.00

00:23:25.500 can you just interject with a question before you get to the point here keith it's quite

00:23:30.300 important especially since martin you of course you have the best insight into the

00:23:33.820 german situation wouldn't you say that if our goal is to also save germany you know the heart

00:23:39.420 of europe isn't that easier done within the eu if germany is you know a stronghold of leftism but

00:23:45.740 you have say sweden say the the neighboring countries to the east of germany all of these

00:23:52.140 countries turning to a more patriotic pro-european stance isn't it easier than to also save germany

00:23:58.940 if if germany is part of the eu and an eu that is a lot more right-wing than germany would be

00:24:05.340 on its own it's just a quick question there absolutely i did could this could be um happening

00:24:11.260 it will happen that the european union european parliament and then therefore also uh later on

00:24:15.900 commission they will be more right-wing than germany the german government i agree with you

00:24:21.340 but i think um changing the european union and push and pressure the european union can be done

00:24:26.140 even better maybe outside of the european union and if there's a viable option like this alternative

00:24:31.740 for europe this separate union of really right-wing pro-european states then you will see

00:24:37.660 the brexit idea the exit is skyrocket in the polls at the moment people don't like it obviously and

00:24:43.340 i also don't think we should make it a central topic of the debate because there is no alternative

00:24:48.860 and it's even seems crazy and i have to say before the change in foreign policy of america

00:24:55.260 i also didn't really think about it but i think now there's kind of a geopolitical window and i

00:25:00.620 i feel a bit like the communists or let's see the um the communists against their will in eastern

00:25:07.900 germany fell at the end of the soviet union i bet they did not think about the dangers of the 0.92

00:25:13.340 structural chaos when the soviet union dissolves or the dangers for the geopolitical greater eurasian

00:25:19.500 space and obviously the fall of the soviet union was a tragedy geopolitically for this space

00:25:25.180 because this union was damaging them in their freedom and sovereignty and i think the european

00:25:32.140 union is even more more dangerous than the soviet union and this whole structure we have right now 0.64

00:25:37.180 because it is uh killing us it is destroying a 6 500 year old ethnocultural lineage and at the

00:25:44.300 moment if you live in such a system if you live in the belly of the beast in a huge machine an

00:25:49.740 engine that's that's created to destroy you every fractionalization every little freedom

00:25:55.820 smaller spaces are better it sounds a bit a bit strange maybe but for example at the moment

00:26:01.580 i'm very happy that austria is not part of the german state because it was austria part was

00:26:07.420 part of this crazy german state then the afd would have like two three percent more in the polls but

00:26:13.180 we would not have this freedom now in austria the freedom party now has um over 40 percent in the

00:26:18.780 polls imagine if saxony also was a small entity at the moment obviously that's not for the future

00:26:24.780 i don't want to have a fractionalized europe that is um and a small nation's nationalism

00:26:30.700 like i don't know a polish prometheanism or joram hasoni puts it i don't think that's the future

00:26:36.220 but at the moment right now with the highest priority of re-migration

00:26:39.900 that's something we should at least think about openly

00:26:41.980 yeah what you're proposing in terms of if a coalition of powerful countries come together

00:26:52.440 within the eu to do that i mean again it would just be so much easier for them to force change

00:26:57.720 on the migration rules um and that's already happened to an extent i mean countries like

00:27:02.420 denmark and italy have pressured for a lesson of some of the pressures from the eu there was just

00:27:08.820 a meeting on december 10th uh about the council of europe the this controversial section eight of

00:27:15.760 the uh european charter on human rights about like family reunification and you're like you can't

00:27:21.540 deport people if they're going to be separated from family this kind of thing um so some of

00:27:25.580 some of this is being reformed even the eu migration pact ended up being a lot different

00:27:30.040 in substance to what it was supposed to be originally in terms of some stricter rules for

00:27:34.440 speed running deportations and use of third countries etc so these are things that can

00:27:40.720 pretty easily be changed if there is a coalition of powerful countries there and again you know we

00:27:46.580 can look at Hungary and Poland I mean they have kept their national sovereignty they haven't given

00:27:52.080 into mass migration yes there have been pressures there in terms of defiance and so on but again

00:27:57.320 that's something that's quite easily reformed if the will is there from larger countries

00:28:01.340 And I think, you know, this is kind of the more fundamental question, but talking about is the EU just destined to be this anti-national globalizing left wing force?

00:28:12.480 Well, a lot of the things you're talking about in terms of the migration pressures aren't really from the EU directly, but this is, you know, this is the post-war liberal consensus.

00:28:22.740 this is human rights universalism and the document that comes up again and again is the one I

00:28:29.060 mentioned the European Convention on Human Rights and you can see that even Britain is constrained

00:28:33.800 by this now they have all of these channel migrants crossing hundreds every day some of

00:28:38.860 these people are there for years getting trials and they get human rights lawyers and you know

00:28:43.080 it has to be respected that you know they have to have certain conditions they have to live in

00:28:47.760 hotels while they're being processed and they can't be separated from you know their girlfriend

00:28:52.320 they met in england like all these like ridiculous rules that come from the european convention on

00:28:56.640 human rights you know that's not even of of eu origin that's from the the council of europe which

00:29:01.800 was formed prior to the eu um and the big architect of that was winston churchill so i think that kind

00:29:07.740 of illustrates like the the eu came about at a time of the construction of this post-war liberal

00:29:14.920 consensus human rights universalism you can see other western countries are obviously a part of

00:29:20.260 this canada the uk is still a part of it and so a lot of times what is just the expansion of of

00:29:27.240 this human rights infrastructure which is then enforced in national states through ngos and

00:29:32.120 activism and human rights lawyers and activist judges uh sometimes we confuse that of being

00:29:38.180 top down from the u whereas actually what you're seeing is a broad elite consensus across individual

00:29:44.460 nation states across the people that lead the eu um that all believe in this and really voluntarily

00:29:50.220 enacted and yes they used the eu to do that but that just gets to the point of if you have people

00:29:55.220 that were ideologically more aligned with us uh there's nothing really constraining them from

00:30:00.140 going in another direction you know britain or any country could leave the chr um and you know

00:30:07.480 that's that's something we've seen with brexit is they still choose to be constrained by it

00:30:11.860 And why are they constrained by it? Well, it's actually not because there's a European court enforcing it. It's because in 1998, the Blair government passed a law to make the ECHR domestic law. And this is how a lot of stuff works is this stuff is formulated on the global or the, you know, the continental level. And you have refugee conventions, you have the 67 refugee convention, which has a lot of this controversial stuff.

00:30:36.500 And then national elites, because they're fully aligned with the post-war consensus, implement this into domestic law and basically hand over power to activist judges.

00:30:45.760 So in the case of Blair, you know, he turns this into domestic law.

00:30:50.040 And you say, well, why would a national government want to constrain themselves with these, you know, international human rights doctrines?

00:30:56.620 Well, so that when future governments come in that want to deport people or close the borders, they're still constrained by this.

00:31:02.300 So none of that is really fixed by leaving the EU.

00:31:05.000 It hasn't fixed it for Britain.

00:31:06.240 their migration problem is worse than ever and the things that are coming from the eu in terms of you 1.00

00:31:11.760 know council directives and you know hungary's getting fined because they don't have a proper

00:31:15.840 asylum process these are quite minor compared to the the floods of immigration that our national 1.00

00:31:22.640 governments are bringing compared to again the echr and the refugee conventions and these other 0.99

00:31:27.760 international conventions that our governments choose to abide by and even if you abolish the eu

00:31:32.720 all of those things would still exist um and then you have to tackle that problem well actually what

00:31:37.360 we need to do is get rid of the echr get rid of the council of europe uh take away these activist

00:31:42.960 judges um you know reform laws as something that's that's fixed and to be implemented rather than

00:31:49.360 um this doctrine that europe embraced of of living law it's called it was i think a

00:31:54.560 an israeli judge named barack was was the the main formulator of this but this this is really what's

00:31:59.600 driving this progression of human rights universalism is the sense of of activist

00:32:04.160 international law but again it's coming internationally on the level of our national

00:32:09.200 elites collaborating to implement that but you know you get nationalist governments in in poland

00:32:14.560 and uh germany and france i mean it's very easy to say okay we're not going to find hungary like

00:32:20.400 a million euros a day whatever it is for not having a proper uh refugee process i mean those

00:32:26.240 those are really the smaller aspects but i think um maybe maybe you also made a little argument for

00:32:33.300 me here so you're absolutely right all of the supranational institutions organizations

00:32:38.320 were born out of this ideology of the left-wing culture like germany

00:32:42.680 and basically the power concentrated there now they reflect it back i agree with that

00:32:47.200 but now let's go on the the european convention human rights and human courts of human rights

00:32:53.040 which is also very, very bad and very problematic,

00:32:56.000 but now deeply involved in the European Union.

00:32:58.560 Would you be for reforming the European Convention on Human Rights

00:33:05.240 and the European Court on Human Rights and waiting until we can reform it,

00:33:09.020 or would you be for just exiting it if we can make quick wins on remigration?

00:33:15.440 I can tell you I would be for exiting it and then maybe later reform it

00:33:18.900 and create some kind of different European Convention on Human Rights,

00:33:21.580 like muslims created their own convention of human rights so why in the one case exiting 0.99

00:33:26.460 and the other case not exiting it if it obviously in both cases would speed up remigration

00:33:34.620 well yeah before everyone exiting the echr i mean it's the echr is really just like pure

00:33:41.820 populism it's just like you can't enforce your borders with it you know you've got to give

00:33:45.660 everyone that washes up on your shores a human rights lawyer um but again i mean that's totally 0.93

00:33:50.940 separate from the eu and like i said britain stayed within that after exiting the eu and even

00:33:55.940 if if half of the eu countries were to exit and form their own union that would still exist and

00:34:01.160 that would still be a problem to be tackled what's the difference well i mean the echar and this whole

00:34:08.020 structure the council of europe which actually includes turkey it included russia until the

00:34:13.180 invasion of ukraine um like this is something it doesn't have any enforcement powers right there's

00:34:18.900 no police service for the the council of europe um like there's no direct punishment if you disobey

00:34:25.600 it and again it really just operates through elite consensus of if you violate this if you leave it

00:34:30.620 you're going to be seeing a strain from the international rules-based order um other

00:34:35.460 countries that are part of it will choose not to collaborate which is much um for you know things

00:34:41.020 like tracking criminals cross-border deportations um you know orders to bring people back this kind

00:34:47.300 of thing so that that's really purely enforced true elite consensus and just through the you

00:34:53.100 know the the pervasive liberalism of of the elites that that run this um obviously the difference is

00:34:59.080 the eu is is a much broader set of infrastructure that encompasses all manner of regulation and

00:35:05.600 economics so you know the ech or all you need is is countries to become ideologically aligned and

00:35:11.420 i mean we can basically just ignore it like nothing happens it's just a question of generating

00:35:15.640 consensus on that whereas exiting the eu i mean just a myriad of of economic consequences that

00:35:22.320 follow like i said i think it's probably a 10-year process for any country to do that then they can't

00:35:27.500 trade with their neighbors the eu is not going to be friendly to countries attempting that

00:35:31.280 there's still uh international rules that they would be expected to follow to engage in trade

00:35:37.740 you still have the world trade organization rules all these kinds of things um but it's usually

00:35:42.960 economically costly uh and that brings a huge political cost as well um one of the primary

00:35:49.940 things i mean is is the bond market i mean every every state today relies on the bond market to

00:35:54.760 fund itself especially european countries which have had quite a serious sovereign debt problem

00:35:59.340 and as soon as there's talk of of an exit from the eu the bond market is is going to flee and

00:36:04.500 countries are going to struggle to fund themselves and i mean you would get like a you know an

00:36:09.220 economic catastrophe level situation where you know the government just can't can't pay for basic

00:36:14.460 services and in a situation like that I don't think nationalists would be very long for this

00:36:19.260 world if they were kind of just playing around with with their country's stability in that way

00:36:23.920 so I think if you get the ideological alignment you can reverse things like the ECHR

00:36:29.640 and the you know again like I said earlier the aspects of it that are coming directly from the

00:36:35.600 EU in terms of European court initiatives and so on.

00:36:37.800 Those are the easier things to enforce.

00:36:40.480 I mean, again, they can just be ignored if the will is there.

00:36:44.320 And we've seen this to an extent.

00:36:46.120 But, Keith, sorry, I agree with you.

00:36:48.400 It could be just ignored.

00:36:50.360 But as we know, the rulings of the European Union

00:36:53.320 cannot be ignored so easily.

00:36:55.200 You have to, there are sanctions, they are growing.

00:36:58.480 And also, obviously, the European Union,

00:37:00.800 with a lot of funding, is doing active color revolution,

00:37:04.480 regime change work in their member states just look at what they're doing

00:37:08.800 in Hungary for example it's not only the EU but they're also doing that but if we

00:37:13.900 say okay the European Union is even more problematic because it's able to enforce

00:37:18.400 that then it's even more an argument for exiting it if exiting leads to a quicker

00:37:24.340 remigration and then then a reform and I think it's very important like this

00:37:29.140 thought experiment i think we really should maybe talk about this again this would be a possible

00:37:35.700 scenario and in this possible scenario i really think that exiting collectively exiting the

00:37:40.500 european union and therefore in a way abolishing it would lead to quicker re-migration wins i agree

00:37:45.940 that it might lead to structural problems might lead to economic problems even more human capital

00:37:51.940 state bonds capital would would flow away from europe to the united states of america russia so

00:37:57.220 so it would weaken the GDP of this continent.

00:38:01.520 But I frankly say I don't care about the GDP of this continent.

00:38:04.660 I don't care about the political organization

00:38:07.860 of this European Union when the European nations die.

00:38:10.900 And I think it's very important to stress this

00:38:12.580 because at the moment we see the rise

00:38:13.940 of a pan-European patriotism by propped up accounts,

00:38:18.900 coincidentally at the same time

00:38:20.280 when the United States withdraw from the Ukraine conflict,

00:38:23.580 suddenly saw all these accounts being pro-European on X,

00:38:26.980 but they never talk about re-migration.

00:38:29.080 They promote kind of economic patriotism

00:38:34.720 and cultural patriotism, a strong civic nationalism.

00:38:38.940 And they also see everybody who is criticizing

00:38:42.160 the European Union as a traitor to Europe.

00:38:44.600 So I think it's very important that we on the right,

00:38:46.900 we agree that floating these ideas

00:38:49.440 of exiting European Union when your priority is re-migration

00:38:52.920 is not treason to Europe.

00:38:54.480 And there might be a position where staying in the European Union would be an actual treason to your people and to European, to the European heritage.

00:39:03.500 And this scenario might, in my opinion, come sooner and might be more realistic than this whole gradual, decade-long reform of the European Union.

00:39:13.500 I agree with you, we shouldn't do anything that's crazy.

00:39:16.520 And I also agree with you, we shouldn't make it the main issue of our campaigns.

00:39:21.480 In Austria, it's a bit different.

00:39:22.560 People in Austria hate the European Union.

00:39:24.120 it's um most disliked in austria maybe i'm also a bit biased here but i think uh we we

00:39:31.960 i guess we're good representatives for for our nations in this but do i wish people to

00:39:37.080 debate contribute more in that or to the get more from the opinion well i mean ireland suffered

00:39:44.040 terribly due to eu governance after the the fiscal crisis in 2009-10 um and here i'm sorry but i have

00:39:52.920 to blame the the germans um but this was kind of this does show one of the kind of fundamental

00:39:58.760 problems of the eu is how it responded to the the financial crisis in 2010 and you see this a lot

00:40:05.880 on x people kind of gloat about this now like the us has had huge growth uh in many sectors since the

00:40:12.200 the financial crisis europe has basically been stagnant it was a lost decade um huge youth

00:40:17.880 unemployment especially in southern europe and ireland suffered quite terribly in that as well

00:40:22.840 because it under pressure from the eu to stabilize the banking system it gave a unprecedented bank

00:40:29.480 guarantee to all of its private banks and then under further pressure uh from a german-led eu

00:40:35.960 it guaranteed all of the the private bondholders so all of the you know the the rothschilds and

00:40:41.080 the layman brothers and so on that that speculated and bought bonds and some of these banks when they

00:40:46.120 they were riding high during the the celtic tiger here and the property bubble uh the irish people

00:40:51.720 ended up paying all of those people back i think at one point ireland was was covering like 40 percent

00:40:56.880 of of of the eu's uh banking debt in that crisis and that's actually an area where i think um the

00:41:03.620 the german approach to economics was something that really set the eu back you know germany has

00:41:08.760 this model of i forget maybe you know the term for it but the german economic model of basically

00:41:14.200 you create kind of a rules-based order and you have a certain fiscal conservatism where the

00:41:19.560 focus is to keep inflation low to avoid you know excessive spending or kind of chaotic government

00:41:26.760 intervention Keynesianism and so the the approach that was pushed by Germany was to say that this

00:41:32.500 was a result of recklessness from these peripheral countries like Spain and Italy and Greece and 1.00

00:41:36.760 Ireland and to force austerity and so you know one benefit of having a larger union is if you have

00:41:44.160 a union with whatever it is 450 million people if you have a coordinated fiscal policy

00:41:48.620 when one area of your your uh region gets in trouble you can put money into it and deal with

00:41:55.280 small shocks you know ireland is a country of five million people it would have been

00:41:58.900 relatively easy for the the ecb to kind of you know turn on the money hose and and like help

00:42:05.420 us get through a period of crisis instead what happened is austerity was enforced on these

00:42:10.000 countries um the ecb didn't come in to prop up uh bar run when these countries had a problem going

00:42:16.560 to the private bond markets to borrow because there was instability in their countries uh and

00:42:21.280 so it forced years of austerity and degrowth and this created a kind of a doom cycle of course

00:42:26.400 where you know austerity led to the growth which led to less investor confidence and this is how

00:42:31.760 you got like 10 15 years of of of just you know like i said a lost decade in many parts of europe

00:42:38.560 but you know even then you can look at that and compare it to covid um and after covid i mean

00:42:46.480 they basically learned the lessons austerity was a disaster um after covid they took a very

00:42:51.340 different position so after 2010 the eu implements uh the fiscal compact treaty um again very much

00:42:58.800 german consensus on economics as a problem is like reckless spending and borrowing and so the

00:43:04.380 EU implemented what I always thought was ridiculous rules that countries like they can't have a

00:43:09.420 deficit beyond three percent of their GDP all these kinds of things that basically knock out

00:43:14.160 like a Keynesian approach to economics of like when your country is in trouble you should stimulate

00:43:18.700 it maybe prop up certain industries and we created rules against that that lasted per decade

00:43:23.980 now when COVID started Germany itself was in trouble it could see that the the euro was

00:43:30.780 potentially in trouble and germany was suffering the same things that southern european countries

00:43:35.020 or the peripheral countries were suffering and i think it's an interesting it's it's an interesting

00:43:40.300 case study because just because the will of the national governments was there specifically

00:43:43.900 germany they just overrode all of this stuff the fiscal compact treaty they just threw it out no

00:43:48.820 you can run deficits now um the stability treaty that we voted on that was passed in europe that

00:43:54.220 was just thrown out the eu created like a pan-european uh basically fiscal stimulatory

00:44:01.400 fund of of like 750 million euros to just pump into economies the eu has rules against uh propping

00:44:07.860 up um state industries that was thrown out you know germany and france were allowed to subsidize

00:44:13.240 industries that were in trouble so you know again that's a case where you look at uh laws and

00:44:19.400 directives and treaties that developed over decades and were enforcing a very strict

00:44:24.360 consensus of German kind of fiscal conservatism on Europe. And as soon as the larger players in

00:44:32.060 Europe, namely Germany, as soon as they saw that this was actually constraining how they could

00:44:36.940 operate, it was just ignored. And on paper, that shouldn't have been possible, right? We were all

00:44:41.220 pledged to these treaties. We can't run deficits, yada, yada. But political reality came into play.

00:44:46.920 and suddenly you see you know law can change for exceptions and if the political will is there all

00:44:51.560 of this can be thrown out and that consensus that operated in the eu basically disappeared

00:44:56.200 and instead of this austerity consensus of you don't stimulate you don't use the ecb to to buy

00:45:01.640 bonds and to bail out countries and to be a lender of last resort all of that disappeared and

00:45:06.040 basically flipped 180 and that was because the political economic reality of the time forced

00:45:11.080 them to do so um so you could look at that example and say something similar with migration would be

00:45:16.760 very possible you know if we can throw out all of these treaties that were decades in the making

00:45:21.000 um rules around around lending and spending that we were told were absolutely sacrosanct if that

00:45:26.280 could all just be ignored because we've you know just as nation states we've decided actually it'll

00:45:31.560 be more beneficial if we take a different course here you can do that for any of the immigration

00:45:36.280 directives as well um and i guess you know to get to your earlier point of of like well why

00:45:41.960 you know you were kind of alluding to well it would be very difficult to do this within the

00:45:46.780 eu and you have all of these directives that come down from the european union if i may just

00:45:51.520 i agree with you but ignoring is just the first stage to exiting or abolishing it because if you

00:45:59.920 ignore and then ignoring is no longer possible because there's so much threat and so much pain

00:46:05.640 then the next step would be to get out i agree with you if we can act as if the european union

00:46:10.640 the current state did not exist and enforce re-migration i'm absolutely for it i'm not a 0.99

00:46:16.240 fetishist here from it's only about really only hyper laser focused on re-migration at the moment

00:46:21.440 but if the europeanian becomes a hindrance and is a net negative when it comes to achieving

00:46:26.720 immediate re-migration because every week we lose here is a is causes maybe even irreversible damage 1.00

00:46:34.720 then we should keep the idea of exiting it open and why do uh why is it so popular the european

00:46:41.440 union so why people don't want to leave i want to come here with an anecdote so i was in slovenia

00:46:45.840 visiting patriots there and it told me that in the city of lubiana the major has now also

00:46:52.080 put everywhere lgbtq flags although he himself is a conservative and told me yeah money from the

00:46:59.280 european union is attached to that so the european union money is necessary to get elected in those

00:47:04.960 poorer countries because if you don't get the european union money if the sanction you when

00:47:09.680 you are in power you can cannot pay pensions you cannot create repair the roads and to have tap

00:47:15.200 into this european money which is liberal left wing german money you have to in a way implement

00:47:22.560 the ideology but if there's a different source of money if there's a different path where leaving

00:47:28.400 the european union doesn't mean economic bankruptcy those nations would leave it

00:47:33.680 yesterday immediately because they really hate the european union when it comes to

00:47:40.640 these people these ugly faces this thunder lane everybody hates them the whole institution this

00:47:45.760 flag is hated you know go to any patriotic any patriotic pub or demonstration in europe 0.97

00:47:52.000 and show a european union flag you're going to be kicked out if you're lucky you know and that's

00:47:56.880 that's just the matter of fact you know and i personally think if there's an alternative which

00:48:02.960 is can push for immigration more quickly more thoroughly we should take it or to think about it

00:48:08.400 i think where we disagree is that you think there's no possible scenario in which exiting

00:48:14.160 or abolishing the european union can speed up re-immigration and here we differ here

00:48:19.200 have a very different opinion i think there is definitely a possible scenario i don't know if it

00:48:23.520 comes i'm not fixed on that i don't have a fetish here i don't really care about this european union

00:48:29.920 this current state but i think that there is a real possibility in the future such a scenario

00:48:35.120 should come up and if the whole i would say like identitarian right positions itself as being

00:48:41.360 staunchly pro-european and even talking about that is an act of treason and this is bad then we miss

00:48:48.960 a chance to think about that and we miss a chance to to have concrete plans here so i agree with

00:48:54.960 most of what you wrote in your article i think all of your proposals to reform the european union

00:48:59.840 are right but i think we should also create this idea of thought this thought experiment of leaving

00:49:04.320 the european union temporarily creating an alternative european union creating a re-migration

00:49:09.360 pact immediately creating charter cities in north africa around the plan a joint venture maybe with

00:49:15.360 the support of private funded right-wing tech billionaires or maybe the united states of america

00:49:22.880 and i know this is against carl schmidt's doctrine of non-intervention of non-spatial powers

00:49:27.920 i know it's also not what's best for europe geopolitically and economically but economy

00:49:34.400 and sovereignty are targets that are below the demographic survival so martin i have two

00:49:40.800 questions for you first and foremost i saw a comment in the chat when will your eminent book

00:49:47.360 re-migration a proposal be available in english and where will you publish it um it's being

00:49:53.440 translated right now it will be published by passage press it's available for pre-order and

00:49:58.160 will appear in early 2026. all right awesome i will definitely share that round now second question

00:50:05.840 You said earlier, Martin, that the anti-European sentiments are inbuilt in the DNA of the EU, like the EU as a structure.

00:50:16.580 Do you not think that is possible to change via metapolitics and changing the zeitgeist and the moral framework?

00:50:24.160 Because if you look at, you know, I'm not going to give too much of my own opinion here,

00:50:27.740 But if you look at most of the West, including, you know, Canada, Norway, the UK, US, all Western nations underwent this, you know, shift in the moral framework and metapolitical, you know, overtone window shift.

00:50:41.660 Do you not think it's just a case that the EU, when it was, you know, came to, started its growth, its adolescent phase during the, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s, the zeitgeist was very much anti-white, anti-European.

00:50:56.880 And do you not think that the EU itself, the people in the EU parliament,

00:51:02.260 do you not think they can be changed via metapolitics sort of from the outside?

00:51:06.180 Or do you think that the EU is destined to be anti-European?

00:51:12.860 That's a very good question. I have to correct myself a bit.

00:51:15.840 I think it can be changed, definitely.

00:51:18.520 But I think it would be very hard work because, as I said, it's very much in DNA.

00:51:24.220 they never wanted to preserve europe as an ethno-cultural entity but they always thought

00:51:30.220 about gdp and economy plus on the same time the european union is a peace project insofar

00:51:36.860 it didn't create the peace but as it was created in a way by also american influence that it only

00:51:43.020 can survive in the pax americana the european union is completely incompetent like a ship that

00:51:48.780 is only in a museum and we put it to water it sinks it's completely incompetent to survive

00:51:53.820 in a multipolar world just look at what happens in ukraine right now they don't have a seat at 0.97

00:51:58.060 the table there's no one voice of this european union because um of the whole structure it was

00:52:04.220 constructed to be a geopolitically impotent and unique so a castrated economic entity that has

00:52:12.300 no real geopolitical willpower of its own no identity and this is also in a way how many

00:52:19.740 people see this flag and see this thing and it's just with the soviet union maybe the soviet union

00:52:24.540 also could have been reformed yeah in a way and transformed into a nationalistic conservative

00:52:30.060 non-communist entity but it was um laden with the associations in it were those elites who 0.90

00:52:37.100 are complicit and all these elites in the european union i really despise them i despise them i

00:52:42.460 dislike them we hate them and i think it's also just to end with a very good target the european 0.96

00:52:48.620 union for anger and frustration because i cannot demand to abolish a state in in europe this would

00:52:55.180 be criminal and i don't want it and obviously i'm i'm here for reform but the european union is

00:53:00.540 something where we can go into this rhetoric of abolishing overthrowing you know um getting rid of

00:53:06.300 bit and uh i think that this disgust for this elite in brussels and for what they've done and

00:53:14.580 for this international organization is the most european thing right now and it's uniting

00:53:18.720 europeans in a way and european nationalists i think it could be reformed but the elite has to

00:53:24.300 go these people has to have to go completely clear them out they have to go away completely

00:53:28.700 and it has to be reformed and rebooted completely.

00:53:33.340 So Keith asked you this earlier also in the conversation

00:53:38.640 and it's something that Gerard Taylor, I believe, said once

00:53:42.580 that you can only be crazy in one aspect.

00:53:44.740 So do you believe that when marrying sort of re-migration policies,

00:53:50.440 like we're all for, of course,

00:53:52.120 do you think it would hurt the re-migration cause

00:53:54.860 and the cause for an ethnocultural revival?

00:53:57.900 Would it hurt our cause to be too anti-European Union?

00:54:02.460 Because for me, as I see it, also, you know, Swedish perspective, of course, might be different in many other countries.

00:54:09.560 But most people, they are for the EU. They like the EU.

00:54:12.160 Do you think it would be like a too bitter pill to swallow to marry our re-migration with too hard of an anti-European Union stance?

00:54:27.900 No, I completely agree with you, and I think Keith said something very intelligent, which is the most important thing, and also everything I say has to be seen in this perspective.

00:54:38.700 Our goal is to win in our own nations.

00:54:41.380 We have to win there, we have to become powerful here, and every argument that is hindering us in getting powerful in our nation does not need to become an exoteric argument.

00:54:51.240 So, I know for an esoteric abolishment of the EU, maybe also like in the X sphere, it's very popular. 0.99

00:54:57.900 But I would not advise the FBI or the FDA to make it the primary demand right now.

00:55:02.780 As I said, if things change, if there's a real alternative, then it will definitely change.

00:55:07.500 The moment is alternative isn't really viable, isn't really there.

00:55:10.860 So I don't think it has to be forced upon the people.

00:55:14.020 But there are many issues on topics that are not ideal for party politics

00:55:19.540 that we should still talk about.

00:55:20.820 I don't know, like OnlyFans, for example, or

00:55:22.900 um degeneration smartphones and the problem and tick tock addiction all this kind of stuff

00:55:29.780 i wouldn't advise a populist mass move in a party to make it a platform

00:55:34.000 all right i have a question for keith also and this is something i get asked quite often as well

00:55:41.940 when it comes to reform how would you go about it in in practical terms of course it's a very

00:55:47.320 very long and deep and broad question but uh just give like a a few insights on how we could

00:55:53.120 practically reform the eu yeah um i wrote an essay on kind of like proposals of what a

00:56:01.280 you know a sort of nationalist themed eu could look like and yeah i agree with martin like i'm

00:56:06.840 not with the federalists uh he was kind of beefed with some of them on twitter i'm not with these

00:56:11.960 people that are like you know centralize everything eu identity should subsume everything that's like

00:56:16.840 the pro-European position so I do I do kind of have a middle position I'm kind of more sympathetic

00:56:21.920 to Martin in a lot of regards and so what I was laying out was a more confederal EU which is

00:56:27.960 basically just returning important power to states one of the I mean one of the founding principles

00:56:33.380 of the EU is supposed to be subsidiarity that decisions are taken at the most local level

00:56:38.520 possible that more local identities and ethnicities should be should be empowered so I think all of

00:56:44.980 that can be done under the EU. I think, you know, when Martin has said, well, it would be too

00:56:49.380 difficult to do this within the EU. Well, the thing is, we haven't really seen an attempt at it.

00:56:53.260 That's the thing, right? I mean, there are all manners of kind of vetoes that states have. And

00:56:58.180 I think we see this with Poland and Hungary. And even in recent years, Denmark and Italy were able

00:57:03.860 to get concessions and roll back some of the orders coming from the EU. So, you know, it basically

00:57:09.060 functions the same way the left has been able to push it in their direction. You know, they didn't

00:57:13.300 win one election and say, this is what the EU is going to be now, and we're going to promote,

00:57:18.640 you know, diversity and so on. I mean, they implement laws, and then those become tools

00:57:24.600 that activist judges and NGOs can use. In the same way, if you get a coalition of countries

00:57:29.860 that are opposed to the direction, they can make use of vetoes that exist. They can push back

00:57:34.820 against court orders. They can build a coalition around resistance, some of this stuff. And when

00:57:40.920 it becomes politically unviable um at that point you know there isn't like some higher authority

00:57:46.260 that's that's going to just keep uh imposing these fines or something um so if the will is there with

00:57:52.040 national governments it can be reformed and you know even when martin says something like um you

00:57:56.680 know the eu it promotes wokeism and it's it's just gone in a more and more leftist direction

00:58:01.180 yeah that's true but i mean what what country in western europe is that not true for right i mean

00:58:07.080 look how much more woke uh canada has become in the last 20 30 years so like when we talk about

00:58:13.360 this you always have to ask the question like is this because of the structure of the eu or is it

00:58:17.740 because of the ideology of the people that are there so you know slovenia gets government funding

00:58:23.820 and it has to put up um you know lgbt flags and whatnot on its new transition something like this

00:58:30.100 I mean, the question to ask is, if the AFD is in power in Germany, if, you know, National Party is in a government in Ireland, if you have all of these pro-immigration parties, is that going to happen?

00:58:41.760 You know, are you still going to have EU funding tied to racial diversity and so on?

00:58:47.320 I think the answer is obviously not.

00:58:48.920 And you have to keep asking that question of, like, how much of this is structurally because of the EU and requires tearing up that infrastructure versus how much of this is just an ideological problem that globalists are in power in our nation states.

00:59:03.340 And, you know, we don't say that, well, you know, look, our nation state is currently working to dispossess its native population and replace its native population. 0.51

00:59:12.260 This is a structural issue with the nation state. It was destined to go this way.

00:59:15.840 uh no we say it's it's it's because of the ideology of people involved it's because they

00:59:20.520 all subscribe to this human rights universalism and and they constrain themselves with these

00:59:24.580 international norms same is true on on the eu level um but it's actually less you know it's

00:59:30.200 it's actually less enforced on the eu level and it's more difficult to enforce it because there's

00:59:34.060 no there's no enforcing body unless there's a consensus on imposing restrictions and fines

00:59:40.060 on countries that that aren't going along with this so uh yeah so i don't see any any of the

00:59:47.260 you know any of the kind of core issues of the you that martin has identified i don't see them as

00:59:51.260 as being things that couldn't be changed once you get um nationalist parties in power um and again

00:59:58.060 you know martin's argument is kind of well you know why not use the ultimate bargaining chip

01:00:03.500 and have a few countries exit and you kind of speed along that process rather than the slow

01:00:07.660 process of you know we're going to experiment with vetoes and we're going to maybe reform one

01:00:12.760 of the treaties and we're going to uh get rid of of this norm that exists and implement this new

01:00:18.320 norm and hopefully successive governments will implement it as well well i mean the fundamental

01:00:22.880 thing is is just the you know the political chaos that that will create you know because

01:00:27.680 it's not a question again we talk about economics it's it's not a question of like you know gdp

01:00:33.140 line go up and we have to we have to grow the economy at all costs and that's a bigger concern

01:00:37.600 than demographics. It's much more a political problem of trying to exit the EU. You're exiting

01:00:44.100 the customs union. The EU has intentionally over decades hollowed out national bureaucracies to

01:00:49.640 replace it with things that operate on the EU level. Just everything, every aspect of the economy

01:00:55.420 and of political life, aviation authorities, customs enforcement, passport authorities,

01:01:00.640 all of these things are built into our states over decades. And on doing that, not only would

01:01:06.900 to be very costly you have a big capital flight um international capital like anticipates the

01:01:12.720 political economic chaos that's going to create um there's a fall in free trade a fall in economic

01:01:18.200 growth people move their investment elsewhere but then also you're going to have like a 10-year

01:01:22.520 process for basically all of the focus goes into this process and i'd suggest that in that process

01:01:28.760 things like remigration uh and demographic issues they're going to end up taking a back seat you're

01:01:34.380 going to have to construct a new industrial policy. You're going to have to construct new

01:01:38.040 trade agreements with every country you trade with. You're going to have to find ways to get

01:01:43.300 out of all of these external treaties that exist. You still have the problem of other international

01:01:50.080 bodies, you know, World Trade Organization agreements, the UN conventions on refugees,

01:01:55.900 the ECHR. So it's not going to be a clean break. It's going to be a 10-year process.

01:02:00.940 in that process you know we know most people are already against leaving the EU

01:02:05.420 even if things change drastically and suddenly populations supported it I think they would flip

01:02:11.240 very quickly and we see that with Brexit they voted to leave the EU I think in opinion polls

01:02:16.040 now when they ask about rejoining it's like 60-65 percent want to rejoin that was a country again

01:02:21.580 where they had their own they had their own monetary system they never joined the eurozone

01:02:25.780 they opted out of a lot of the worst aspects of the EU it made a clean break a lot more possible

01:02:30.320 uh london is this huge financial hub that exists very much kind of independently of the eu and

01:02:37.360 that's this hub for international finance capital and that's where a huge amount of

01:02:41.040 britain's uh economic growth comes from so there was a lot of unique things about britain

01:02:45.800 and it was still a very costly five-year process you know uh immigration really took a backseat

01:02:51.760 and people kept voting for the conservatives to try and get brexit done and at the same time

01:02:55.900 boris johnson imported whatever it was a million plus south asians into the uk so it's not so much

01:03:03.220 you know the economic cost of our gdp will fall x number of points as uh it's going to create

01:03:08.620 enormous political chaos and you know voters in our populations will have the option of the

01:03:14.900 pro-u parties that can restore stability that right now are really losing their legitimacy

01:03:19.940 really losing their cause for existence uh in a scenario where you have economic ruination in

01:03:25.660 many countries in Europe, you know, geopolitical shock, suddenly they're going to have a much

01:03:31.740 greater justification for existence.

01:03:33.500 And I think people will lose trust in national disparities to govern if you have a situation

01:03:37.980 that chaotic.

01:03:40.080 Martin, can I ask you a question?

01:03:41.960 Maybe I just want to respond to a few points here.

01:03:46.040 I think you're right.

01:03:47.440 Brexit showed also it's quite possible quite quickly.

01:03:50.980 I think the whole thing could be done way easier and way quicker.

01:03:53.920 also if you just leave the european union or certain legal frameworks of the european union

01:04:02.100 so i don't think it necessarily needs to come to that and i also want to make it clear my argument

01:04:06.860 for leaving is not economical or political it is if and only if it could speed up immigration and

01:04:14.800 understand the european union reflects the zeitgeist but it enforces it and it in a way

01:04:21.140 concentrates it and makes it stronger and it's a weapon for the current zeitgeist so to put it in

01:04:26.940 a metaphor you have an opponent opponent he's holding a weapon and you have two possibilities

01:04:32.300 either you run towards him disarm him and take the weapon or you just step outside of the reach

01:04:38.900 of the weapon or go around the corner and the question is always what is uh more realistic

01:04:44.440 and yes reforming the eu is a possibility absolutely but the question is what is quicker

01:04:49.520 because our uh scarcest resource at the moment is time if your house is on fire you can um extinguish

01:04:56.960 the fire in many ways but the question is if you have a fire hose right here and you turn it on

01:05:02.640 and you extinguish the house the fire immediately and save the house you need to do that and you

01:05:06.960 don't go around the corner and get the fire from the gas station or from your neighbor

01:05:10.880 so for me the biggest question is not is is theoretically possible i also don't really want

01:05:15.840 want to talk about it um the economic uh issues that would come later and if then opinion might

01:05:22.600 change these are for me all be too abstract into theoretical i think the most important question

01:05:27.500 is is the scenario where exiting the european union would be a viable way to bring mass migration

01:05:35.260 to great replacement quicker to an end i think yes there is one but um you also might say no

01:05:40.480 there's no possible, no thinkable scenario in which exiting the European Union would speed up

01:05:47.420 re-emigration. I think that's where I basically disagree. So Martin, I will throw you a hard

01:05:53.020 question here that is usually like a standard question in this debate. So you have two,

01:05:58.580 or we can actually take three different countries. You have the UK, which after Brexit has experienced

01:06:02.960 a massive flood of non-Europeans. Then you also have Norway, which has not been in the EU.

01:06:09.500 they are you know close to sweden uh never been in the eu uh and then you have poland which has

01:06:16.240 been in the eu for quite some while and you know they are as far as i know they've received quite

01:06:20.820 a lot of resources from the eu yet just like hungary they are you know keeping it i'm not

01:06:28.300 saying that poland is perfect in this regard but compared to norway they haven't had the same sort 0.97

01:06:32.860 of um issues with immigration so how would you respond to that if someone says that poland

01:06:38.360 which is in the eu they are in a better situation than norway which is outside of the eu or also

01:06:44.600 the uk after britain after brexit it's actually a very easy question because um as the european

01:06:51.340 obviously is not the only cause for mass migration um even more obvious being in the european union

01:06:58.120 is not the cause for being against migration the reason why poland is against migration

01:07:02.720 and it's very different is because it's a former soviet union country and all the former soviet

01:07:07.420 union countries that didn't weren't exposed to decades of liberalism and re-education in this

01:07:13.500 sense have a stronger national identity and are therefore also more reasonable when it comes to

01:07:19.580 migration policy but poland is not anti-immigrant because of the european union it's anti-immigration

01:07:26.060 in spite of the european union and every act of poland to protect its border to protect his children

01:07:31.740 from drag queen story times to protect this national identity has been fought to the teeth

01:07:37.260 against institutions of the european union because the left-wingers the liberals in europe are using

01:07:43.020 the european union as the weapon think of this metaphor to enforce the crazy ideology also in

01:07:48.220 nations where they don't have a national majority for that and this is the problem of the european

01:07:53.100 union at the moment so there might be a change but i think at the moment just stepping out of

01:07:58.300 the range of this crazy weapon might be better than to try to wrestle with this guy and take

01:08:04.540 the weapon away from him in the long term that's definitely the goal in the long term obviously

01:08:08.620 there has to be a european reconquista obviously every nation has to leave the european union and

01:08:13.340 obviously there has to be a real union based on uh european ethno-cultural identity and with a

01:08:19.900 better flag i hate this flag i'm sorry hands down i think also we cannot regret it yeah uh so um

01:08:28.540 so another similar question if you have a country such as hungary which is a net recipient of eu

01:08:34.060 funds i mean they they can still say orban he says as we speak right now he's saying to the eu like

01:08:40.380 we don't want your your immigrants here and they are trying every trick in their book to get him 1.00

01:08:46.380 to change his ways he's still saying no and he gets money from the eu has been you know hungary

01:08:51.260 has been a net recipient and then we have countries such as sweden for example which is a net giver

01:08:56.940 to the eu wouldn't it be easier for sweden then or some of the other net contributors to the eu

01:09:03.820 wouldn't they have an easier time to say no to the eu's demand for immigration absolutely and that's

01:09:10.540 why they're so afraid of austria having a right wing victory because italy can be blackmailed by

01:09:16.460 european money black rock basically sits in the italian uh italian government you know

01:09:21.980 this country is bankrupt france also can be blackmailed by european money um sweden can't

01:09:28.860 but or for example sorry democrat and you also see the different policy and austria would be

01:09:35.660 the first really pro-migration staunchly right-wing also anti-eu country that is not blackmailable 0.93

01:09:43.580 and there's a direct quote by an austrian a conservative politician who said quickly so

01:09:48.300 dangerous because he cannot be blackmailed with european sanctions when is the chancellor and so

01:09:53.580 austria could be the first country of this western bloc that exits this and then creates an alternative

01:09:59.980 european union based on the blog blog post and the subject article of kiff woods and then start

01:10:07.420 kick-starting re-migration and obviously later merging and taking over the whole thing that's

01:10:12.780 that's for sure yeah so a follow-up question here do you not think it would be easier for

01:10:17.740 other european countries if we have the eu still intact and we have one victory say in austria do

01:10:23.820 you not think that victory would spill over more easily to other european countries if we still

01:10:28.460 have the eu so say austria wins our guys win in austria do you not think it would be easier for

01:10:34.940 um a nationalist victory in another eu country uh do you understand the question i understand it um

01:10:42.140 i also uh tend to agree with it but i think that the big and quick win of exiting uh would be

01:10:47.980 higher than the slow uh and steady tendency but if the european union changes and if there's a

01:10:53.900 right-wing government in austria and the european union is at this point so right-wing that it

01:10:58.860 doesn't hinder us in enforcing re-migration then obviously it would be foolish to as keith has

01:11:05.020 really pointed out do this complex and also risky thing you know so then i wouldn't do it so i'm not

01:11:10.540 as i said again i'm not a fetishist here's the goal re-migration and if the european union

01:11:15.500 stands in the way of this goal and is a net negative for re-migration then it should be done

01:11:21.660 and i think for a while obviously it would be bad for germany imagine if austria poland hungary

01:11:28.380 italy greece exit or partially exit the european union no refugee distribution anymore pushbacks

01:11:34.620 on every border bringing all the illegals to um to the to a charter city in north africa 0.96

01:11:41.420 no benefits anymore there would be a mass exodus of every migrant to germany from these countries 1.00

01:11:47.740 but this would create such a pressure on germany it would create an infarct of the german system

01:11:53.180 that in germany a political change would happen also even quicker so that's a very normal very

01:11:59.180 very clear strategical principle if you have your whole army scattered across the battlefield and

01:12:03.820 you cannot win nowhere um you will lose but if you concentrate them have a breakthrough on a

01:12:08.780 specific front and actually can conquer a little kingdom you know a little tower then that's a

01:12:14.940 strategic victory and that's a bit how i see the whole thing i'm not a fetishist as i said again

01:12:19.660 but for me there's definitely a viable scenario where abolishing or exiting or ignoring the

01:12:24.460 european union would be beneficial for remigration so i will let you you um answer some questions

01:12:30.540 also keith but before doing that uh the fastest way so i think we can all agree that the number

01:12:36.380 one issue we face it's re um replacement migration and our number one goal is re-migration 0.97

01:12:43.440 Do you, Martin, do you not think it's the quicker way to simply get as many good individuals into political parties as possible now,

01:12:51.580 both on a national level and on an EU level, to get them inside the belly of the beast, so to speak,

01:12:58.240 and get them to work for re-migration simply by working hard in the EU parliament?

01:13:05.200 Do you not think that's a quicker way to achieve re-migration than to work for the abolishment of the EU? 0.97

01:13:10.320 no not necessarily in the scenario that is described i think the other way would be quicker

01:13:17.060 and for absolutely going into the european parliament going to political parties

01:13:22.380 absolutely but if the scenario comes where you can do it and you can create this alternative

01:13:31.000 scenario that i said i think this would be a quicker way definitely and also a way which is

01:13:35.800 easier because imagine a sovereign a real sovereign austrian state which cannot be sanctioned by the

01:13:41.400 european union which is also economically viable so the scenario that keith brought up that

01:13:47.080 you have economic chaos and then you break down doesn't happen look at switzerland and this austria

01:13:52.920 then becomes a beacon of freedom of speech there's no dsa anymore um europe.com and all all

01:13:59.640 companies can set up their bases in austria and austria becomes um also a shining example

01:14:05.640 that re-migration works without uh turn to chaos then this would be more beneficial than staying 0.88

01:14:13.160 in the european union and just having a few meps more in the in the parliament if this is a

01:14:18.360 possibility again i'm i'm not 100 uh um i'm not fetishizing this the only reason why i'm also

01:14:25.960 so vehemently arguing for that is that suddenly alongside to this federalist movement some voices

01:14:32.680 in the right obviously not keith but some voice in the right act as if it would be an act of treason

01:14:38.520 anti-european anti-patriotic to even think about that and i really have to say no that's not the

01:14:44.680 case that's really not the case i'm very european i'm very pan-european even in a way our movement 0.96

01:14:49.720 is a european movement i'm totally against petty nationalism i think that's completely stupid but

01:14:55.400 when re-migration is the highest priority this european union um it could be the national duty 0.95

01:15:01.320 to betray this european union and these bureaucrats in brussels i would just say

01:15:08.760 i i think i think you're assuming too much about the practicality of it i mean you said earlier

01:15:13.800 like you don't want to really focus on like the you know kind of abstract question of like what

01:15:18.760 would happen to the economy in that scenario but i mean you have to game this out and think how

01:15:22.760 it plays politically i mean like a country leaves the eu or even a collection of countries right

01:15:28.920 they have to renegotiate terms with the us with china with the eu they have to do all of this

01:15:34.280 simultaneously this takes years they have to rebuild national bureaucracies all sorts of

01:15:39.080 competences uh with customs with border security um it infrastructure travel all of these kinds of

01:15:46.280 things it would be a huge economic shock there's no doubt about that i mean britain had an economic

01:15:51.320 shock and again it wasn't integrated into the eu in the same way uh switzerland same thing you know

01:15:56.520 you named that but that's that's never been integrated into the same way so if you're talking

01:15:59.800 about countries leaving the eu um that are attached to the euro you also have the years-long process

01:16:05.320 of of creating a currency and capital and the markets respond to political shocks much faster

01:16:11.560 than politics does right like as soon as there's the the fear of the instability created by this

01:16:17.880 you're going to have capital fleeing you're going to have investment fleeing uh trade is immediately

01:16:21.960 going to break down uh you lose access to the customs union of 450 million people it would be

01:16:27.560 huge economic shock overnight and then that's compounded by uh the fact that you don't have

01:16:34.200 access to borrowings so this kind of takes us back to what happened to ireland in 2009-10

01:16:39.240 where suddenly the country had a sovereign debt crisis because it guaranteed private banking debt

01:16:45.080 at the same time the economy went into steep decline it was a serious recession

01:16:50.440 as growth slowed as lower tax receipts suddenly ireland's operating a huge budget deficit

01:16:57.000 and there wasn't enough faith from the markets to continue lending to ireland and so ireland

01:17:02.200 was left with no choice but to go to lender of last resort and borrow from the imf the ecb and

01:17:08.840 the european commission this financial troika at that point they basically gave up their sovereignty

01:17:14.040 and had to agree to whatever financial impositions German-led ECB demanded,

01:17:19.700 which was years of austerity to try and plug the deficit,

01:17:23.140 which was enormously harmful.

01:17:24.640 Now, you can imagine a very realistic scenario

01:17:26.500 where an Austria or an Italy exits,

01:17:30.140 a country like Italy already has a sovereign debt problem.

01:17:33.260 Suddenly, tax receipts collapse, trade goes way down,

01:17:36.440 exports collapse, new trade deals are on worse conditions,

01:17:40.880 investment capital multinationals flee.

01:17:43.220 they want access to the common markets so they go to other countries where they already have that

01:17:46.980 access they want the stability of countries that are going undergoing these enormous geopolitical

01:17:52.020 shocks so you have a capital flight even exports collapse uh your tax rates collapse very quickly

01:17:58.180 you're operating like a massive budget deficit and that's where ireland was in 2009 10 where

01:18:02.900 it was literally at the point we can't borrow from the international markets uh if there was

01:18:07.700 I never opt for a chaotic and a solitaire like exit there's an area I'm proposing the thought

01:18:16.980 experiment always is several countries which form a very strong block do this or at least think about

01:18:22.980 it openly debate it I think even like just talking about the grading concrete plans would create huge

01:18:30.340 pressure on the European Union all it also put pressure on the European markets and in this

01:18:34.900 scenario in this in this proposal this thought experiment these countries would stay in the

01:18:40.500 currency union would offer to stay in the currency union would offer to stay even in schengen

01:18:44.900 except for obviously illegal migrants would have like as you said before they would have a manual 0.62

01:18:49.780 list okay if these points we we take these points we don't take we create a different um network

01:18:56.580 alternative for europe at the moment we are not a conqueror to the european union but you could

01:19:00.580 immediately become one if you don't negotiate with us if you don't let us do a completely own thing

01:19:06.340 when it comes to cultural identity when it comes to um migration and i think doing this uh creating

01:19:13.700 this creating this idea floating this idea would create huge pressure in the european union and

01:19:18.180 then the markets and the economies and the investors would pressure the european union

01:19:23.780 not to kick these many countries out of the currency union because this would then be even 0.67

01:19:28.020 a bigger blow because obviously it would be bad for those countries who who quit but it would be

01:19:33.940 even like also very bad for the ramp european union states and what we also need to take into

01:19:39.220 consideration is foreign investment is for example the geopolitical role of the united states who

01:19:45.780 stated in the nss 25 the national security strategy that they want to do that and they obviously then

01:19:52.340 would support this financially politically economically so now you would have the the

01:19:58.100 biggest economy or the greatest um superpower you know uh in of the world supporting this

01:20:04.900 diplomatically militarily financially i think this would make these horror scenarios

01:20:12.180 a way less likely and give would give this idea of an alternative european union way more

01:20:18.820 makes it way more realistic but i mean politics changes very fast and you know in three years we

01:20:25.540 could have very pro-eu democrats back in power in the us and even if you have a supportive

01:20:31.460 administration i mean that you know that's not going to dictate where uh you know intel or paypal

01:20:37.300 based their head offices right like they're in ireland right now because corporate tax is low

01:20:41.220 and there's access to the the common market especially with like the big exporters like

01:20:45.940 the pharmaceuticals and even if you have a collection of four or five countries i mean that

01:20:50.100 it's kind of relying on a lot of things being very stable over time right because all of those

01:20:53.860 countries they still have the same problem then you have like five countries all forming five

01:20:58.260 currencies all having to renegotiate trade agreements with multiple countries and geopolitical

01:21:04.340 blocks around the world um and then at the same time i mean you basically need complete ideological

01:21:10.020 alignment from those countries over the course of five ten years but of course this is going to

01:21:14.660 become very politically costly um you know the the media and the opposition parties are going

01:21:19.300 to highlight the the instability that's creating and then suddenly you know you have a leftist pro

01:21:24.020 eu government back in power in one of these countries elections happen every every four

01:21:28.180 or five years you know it's relying on like a great deal of coherence and geopolitical support

01:21:35.540 and so on that just isn't really there you mean in this in these countries that would exit in this

01:21:40.100 thought scenario you would need ideological alignment but you need this even more like

01:21:45.700 right-wing governments if you want to reform the eu so um obviously you're right you need to have

01:21:51.300 constant right-wing governments in those countries who would form this alternative european union

01:21:56.740 if it was for this scenario but in the scenario of you you would need even more writing government

01:22:02.020 constant writing governments and your scenario reform the european union it's even less likely

01:22:07.700 that you have many rights in government just let's look at hungary you know in hungary orban

01:22:12.260 is under heavy pressure because you have this uh this huge opposition which obviously is also being 0.89

01:22:17.860 propped up by the european union this guy is now he's not peter magia is not it's not dumb he's 0.77

01:22:23.300 also a bit patriotic and he basically says okay i'll also keep illegal migration at bay but i have

01:22:28.580 a better communication with the european union so i get even more money from them and then i can put

01:22:33.940 all this money i can helicopter money this money to the hungarians and this is the way how the

01:22:38.660 european union is crushing nationalistic governments and they will keep doing this

01:22:43.940 and at the same time they're still invading us with migrants and if we can change this in 20 0.97

01:22:49.140 years the european union will become this multi-ethnic empire where every nationalist

01:22:53.540 opposition is crushed there's a free flow with schengen of migrants migration and a multi-ethnic

01:23:00.820 population which then can be really ruled by a universalistic brussels elite so that's that's

01:23:07.140 the scenario and that's actually what they're going and aiming for even stating it publicly

01:23:12.020 replacement migration resettlement they want to create a blueprint for the world state on european 0.90

01:23:17.780 soil and that's very very urgent and it's very very threatening and i think outside of the

01:23:23.380 european union if it wasn't for the financial problem these countries would have a better

01:23:27.780 chance to still having rights in governments and what you brought up are financial arguments i agree

01:23:33.300 finance is important gdb is important but democracy is more important democracy is way more important

01:23:38.260 and if there if you tell me here's a financial chaos but we get re-migration i would take the 0.99

01:23:43.140 financial chaos every time so yeah regarding that can i pose a question you you keith asked before

01:23:50.660 that is really really interesting as well and that's even though we care of course most about

01:23:57.220 getting re-migration done but something keith said previously was that if one country lives the eu

01:24:05.140 and experience as a total economic collapse do you think there would be a risk of that discrediting

01:24:12.020 nationalist voices so that nationalist voices are connected to resistance to eu and then you know

01:24:18.820 sort of gets tainted by the potential economic failure because for us of course we put the

01:24:25.220 The biological, the bicultural lineage first, European peoples, of course we do.

01:24:30.940 But for most normies, I mean, they do care about economy, especially now.

01:24:35.080 It's a bad economy out there.

01:24:36.860 People are going to the supermarket and they feel the sting of the inflation.

01:24:41.100 It's a quite tough market out there as well.

01:24:42.900 So looking at it from an economic perspective, just in terms of maintaining our gravitas as metapolitical operators,

01:24:52.160 So do you think there would be an issue there that if such a thing would happen, economic chaos following an EU exit would discredit nationalist voices?

01:25:03.120 Do you think that would be something to look out for?

01:25:06.840 Very good point. Very good point.

01:25:08.720 It's also something that Orbán always says.

01:25:10.680 He says, like, if you're a right-winger, your ideologies, most people don't care about them.

01:25:14.920 You have to give them good economy, otherwise you're out.

01:25:17.940 so i uh i agree with you and also i haven't really like seen any chance for this scenario

01:25:24.020 because of many many reasons but there are two things why i still think it should be at least

01:25:29.940 debated again there are a lot of ifs in my thought experiment first reason is support of america and

01:25:37.540 i think this strategy even if there's a democrat government of isolationism of selective engagement

01:25:45.460 and this end of the of globalism will be uh will be kept by the american security apparatus even

01:25:55.540 if the democratic government so america is a game changer now and the second thing is there will be

01:26:02.180 an economic crisis either way so i i'm not uh banking and betting on a very stable um alignment

01:26:10.180 slow alignment process because when the baby bust happens and really hits us fully and that's

01:26:16.100 something you can't do anything about and there's there's no way i also think you can automate you

01:26:21.060 out of that with ai or anything if the baby bust hits us and this will happen um in the end of the

01:26:28.020 2020s 2035 the last baby boomer will be retired or dead uh yeah then we'll have we'll have a huge 0.98

01:26:36.020 economic crisis either way so that's why i think uh we will we will either way come into very

01:26:42.100 turbulent waters and um i think it's it's definitely it will be worth it will be worth

01:26:48.260 the risk given the fact that we don't only have a few years left and we also cannot really wait

01:26:53.620 but if we see the european union changes and we see that the european union already under this

01:26:57.620 pressure is and they're already doing that you know changing immigration policy allowing countries

01:27:03.540 to enforce a rwanda plan then this would definitely change my estimation again i think

01:27:09.860 our pressure and having those ideas these thought experiments would increase this process and would

01:27:16.020 be seen as a threat by the by the by the bureaucrats in brussel because if they think oh they don't

01:27:21.300 have any alternative they can't do anything look what happened with brexit like even even like the

01:27:25.700 most writing voices even they are now pro-european and pro-eu then they wouldn't feel this threat

01:27:31.540 anymore so i think we should keep this threat potential like this mental nuclear bomb of

01:27:36.980 exiting and abolishing alive and and uh keep engineering it all right yeah we can just

01:27:44.340 comment on that quickly because i guess that's kind of good i guess that's kind of the fundamental

01:27:48.340 disagreement is is martin said like you know i said you need this great political stability and

01:27:55.380 continuity to do what he's proposing and he said well you'd need even more of it to reform the eu

01:27:59.780 i think that's kind of the fundamental disagreement because uh number one like i said we're already

01:28:04.500 seeing countries like denmark italy poland they've carved out exemptions from some of the the uh

01:28:09.940 migrant aspects of of european law um there's existing vetoes there are things that can just

01:28:16.100 be ignored uh at most like the biggest reforms would be uh you know redoing a treaty and sending

01:28:22.180 that to a vote but like these aren't politically costly you know like there isn't going to be any

01:28:26.820 great uproar if uh people read the papers and and find out that um you know people can be deported

01:28:32.660 without concern for uh family reunification now right like uh apart from like leftist uh ngos

01:28:39.300 and human rights lawyers no one's really going to care about that but that's really a world away

01:28:43.620 from you know a scenario where like you literally have a state that can't pay teachers and nurses

01:28:48.980 and doctors you know like you said the economic uh question really brings it to the fore and that

01:28:54.180 that would obviously be very prominent then in elections and so on. Whereas a lot of the stuff

01:28:58.840 that happens on the EU level, change in treaties, implementing vetoes, I mean, these are things

01:29:03.580 people don't even really think about. No one has even really noticed things ratcheting in the

01:29:09.140 other direction in terms of how leftist the EU has become. In the same way, nationalist governments

01:29:15.860 within the EU could easily reform those things in the other direction. And no one would really

01:29:20.060 pay attention and if they knew the details of it i think they'd support it um whereas the

01:29:24.480 economic shock uh is pretty much all downsides and so that's a much much more difficult sell

01:29:30.160 so can i ask you a question also martin so if we have in the next 10 15 20 years if we have

01:29:38.440 one country leaving the eu do you not think they would be so during this period of many many

01:29:44.760 nations leaving the EU do you not think

01:29:46.880 they would be quite vulnerable to

01:29:48.760 bigger players so for example if Estonia

01:29:51.120 were to leave the EU

01:29:52.880 I mean Russia could just go in 0.94

01:29:54.800 especially if the US are

01:29:56.820 now withdrawing from Europe which

01:29:58.900 I understand maybe they don't want to pay for

01:30:00.780 for defense via NATO here

01:30:02.580 or you could have some place like Greece

01:30:04.760 maybe they want to leave the EU and then China

01:30:06.740 comes in and they say can we buy

01:30:08.600 Chios from you so they take all 1.00

01:30:10.780 of our mastic gum from us or

01:30:12.180 so they want to have a big naval base on a

01:30:14.760 on a on an island in greece or they go to croatia so china or whichever big power um and you know

01:30:21.560 one small country such as greece um or croatia they don't really have any leverage to put so

01:30:27.880 therefore an offer from a bigger power maybe that's tempting but within the eu you know they

01:30:34.040 they still have some benefits economically to um to stay within the u do you think there would be

01:30:39.400 such a risk if we have this stage of chaos in europe where many many nations are leaving and

01:30:46.440 they are sort of up for grabs from bigger powers do you think that would be a risk geopolitically

01:30:51.640 speaking yes it would definitely be a risk and i also want to make it clear i'm not blind to

01:30:56.840 the geopolitical reality we all read carl schmidt and it's obviously the goal of any foreign power

01:31:03.960 to split the european greater space and to create little bridgeheads and to like a in a big 30-year

01:31:11.400 war turn europe and the european continent the chessboard of foreign interests so i definitely

01:31:17.160 see this threat but i think that this in the thought experiment these countries and i mentioned

01:31:23.880 intermarium for a reason could immediately create their own also security um security council

01:31:33.960 pardon and also leaving the european union or partially leaving it would not mean to leave

01:31:39.720 nato or trying to push for a reform of nato so i definitely see the risk but i think at the moment

01:31:45.720 the risk of a different geopolitical influence is lower than the risk of keeping the current

01:31:52.840 power structure in place because i also have to say i think that the current european elites

01:31:59.880 and also our national elites obviously are a bigger threat to us and the european nations

01:32:05.640 than foreign rules and foreign elites because they might try to get our money 0.96

01:32:12.360 gather human resources suppressors maybe even conquer us which is something i would absolutely 0.95

01:32:18.280 resist and fight against i i have military training in austria but they don't want to

01:32:23.800 replace us with third world migrants which our own rulers our own elites and the european union 1.00

01:32:29.160 are doing on a very rapid speed so neither the soviet occupation not even the bulk the ottoman

01:32:36.360 occupation on the on the balkans was so severe and so deathly and so traitorous as our current elites

01:32:43.240 and that's um i'm coming from the real enemies in our own country at the moment do you not think

01:32:49.240 that the us though so now of course we have a more pro-european administration with trump and vance

01:32:55.240 but do you not think this could shift quite rapidly in three years or in subsequent elections

01:33:01.160 if we get or they get rather i say we because what happens there it influences us and i mean

01:33:06.200 speaking of censorship and everything like that it comes from american companies as well google

01:33:11.480 meta for example so do you not think there is a risk on relying too much on american aid when

01:33:17.400 that can switch like in yeah in less than four years i agree but this um if you only have a short

01:33:24.200 time frame for this for this current circumstances it would be even um i think an argument for for

01:33:29.880 making this early and quicker because if america shifts again and pivots back to funding left-wing

01:33:35.160 organization with us aid with storage money supporting democrats everywhere in europe

01:33:40.360 using cia power everything in europe to prevent a patriotic change infiltrating patriotic parties

01:33:45.720 then and switching off x obviously from one day to another then i also think a reform of the

01:33:52.040 european union would be rather unrealistic and we have to be realistic here uh what's happening

01:33:59.240 right now and that also patriotic positions and all of this is being is being accepted more right

01:34:05.400 now is also part of um elites and elite change an internal change of elites and uh also a change of

01:34:12.600 policy in the united states of america even a bit in the in the european union um in the time of

01:34:19.080 the end of the end of history in the pax americana they wanted us docile effeminate and not able to

01:34:25.000 defend ourselves now in the multipolar world they need men again and they need fighting forces and

01:34:30.280 they will slowly try to reboot patriotism but um i am my fear my problem my issue with the european

01:34:37.000 union is that they want to do this in the civic nationalist um european culturalist way like

01:34:42.440 turning europe into a small american melting pot and the world's um a little you know uh

01:34:50.200 world state in in in small size and this is my biggest fear that we don't use the chance

01:34:57.160 we have right now where the window of opportunity is open where um really there's a there's an

01:35:05.640 and unique time frame for to push for immigration and i think if for example trump you know now

01:35:13.000 there will be trump advance eight years and then will be total democratic rule based on demographics

01:35:18.120 and in this eight-year time frame we would have the chance to create an alternative european

01:35:22.520 union with actual sovereignty where we have where we can create our own social networks

01:35:26.760 but there would be own banks would not deep bank us where we could do pushbacks on all the borders

01:35:32.200 and we might have an economic warfare against us but maybe with other different powers maybe

01:35:36.600 like north korea we could survive i would every every day choose this instead of staying in the

01:35:41.400 belly of this beast which would then become even more beastly under the guidance of a liberal

01:35:46.840 democratic united states of america again i think it's very important priorities sovereignty economics

01:35:53.000 is a lower priority than democracy and that's that's basically how i approach the whole thing

01:35:57.320 all right keith do you have any comments on that

01:36:02.480 um yeah no i mean i think i think we see the the core disagreement i mean i i take martin's point

01:36:10.460 i mean i agree with them of course the the demographic issue is key and it's really

01:36:14.260 anything it takes to to reverse that and and to save europe from this this crisis of demographic

01:36:20.240 erasure um but you know my argument around the economy isn't isn't fundamentally about

01:36:25.740 you know that economic growth itself has has such value uh but just that it adds to the the overall

01:36:32.560 picture of of political instability that would really make this i think not not just impossible

01:36:38.940 but it would it would lead to political ruination for nationalist parties that attempted so you know

01:36:44.380 as we said at the start we agree on on remigration we agree on the direction of the current eu um and

01:36:50.540 on what an immigration policy should be um for me it's just a strategic kind of political

01:36:56.040 calculation and i just don't think it's viable and i think our you know our political energies

01:37:02.880 are much better spent on aligning people with the nationalist uh anti-mass migration position

01:37:08.860 and then you know as the left did work in wherever we can to to kind of force that into policy into

01:37:15.140 law using whatever means at our disposal and currently i do think the means are there with

01:37:20.340 the eu to get a lot of what we want um as i said you know people can kind of balk at that because

01:37:26.700 well you know the eu is so leftist it's always gone that direction but again the fundamental

01:37:31.240 point is our entire lifetime our individual nation states have always been going this direction

01:37:36.260 um and so i don't see anything like structurally or fundamentally uh that stops a reversal of that

01:37:42.840 if you get ideologically aligned people uh in positions of power on the continental level as

01:37:47.440 all right so we're coming up to two hours and i thought we could have this conversation for two

01:37:56.160 hours i have uh some super chats that i thought to read out um and we can discuss those a little

01:38:02.680 bit are there any other points you would like to make uh regarding maybe geopolitics or um

01:38:09.960 or practicality how to how do we best so if we have young young talented guys

01:38:17.240 listening to this right now what sort of advice would you give them to you know enact political

01:38:22.840 change well i'm sure this will come up in the super chats as well but um i mean i fully support

01:38:32.200 martin's strategy in terms of um you know moving the discourse metapolitically and bringing this

01:38:37.480 issue to the fore and i think we have made huge strides in the last few years uh was it the

01:38:42.920 financial times that said remigration is is the year in a word so things are things are changing

01:38:48.280 very fast metapolitically um and of course you know to anyone watching that's that's invested

01:38:53.160 in these things you know try and build up your own political capital try and build up your own

01:38:57.640 influence and try and spread these ideas uh as as much as possible and you know i can say from

01:39:02.600 experience when you meet the younger guys that are into right-wing politics even the center right

01:39:07.240 these ideas are really becoming dominant so you know take some heart from from the progress that

01:39:12.120 has been made as well that's also what i would say i think um we are seeing a great success

01:39:18.600 of this meta-political strategy of right from gramianism and i can just urge everybody to get

01:39:24.520 involved it's now soon new year's eve so as a new year's goal for 2026 because the next

01:39:33.080 uh 15 20 years will be absolutely exciting so any time any resource time money whatever you put in

01:39:40.520 right now is now worth way more than ever 20 years ago the chances are high in 30 years it will be

01:39:46.520 worthless you then can do whatever you want you can become a full-time activist throw millions on

01:39:51.080 a remigration movement it's over there for some parts of europe in 30 40 years so now is really

01:39:57.560 the most important time and i just urge everybody to live accordingly and set the priorities straight

01:40:03.000 to think about what they can do what what their talents are because not everybody obviously can

01:40:09.640 become a live streamer not everybody can um go to a political party not ever become everybody

01:40:15.880 become can become a theorist like keith wooder right intellectual but everybody can get involved

01:40:21.960 in a broader right-wing movement and so that's that also what i would advise people there are

01:40:27.960 many many ways to get active you don't need to show your face in every in every way but you

01:40:32.200 should dedicate parts of your resources time finance uh your whole life energy to this project

01:40:39.720 because we're winning and now we've set up a bridgehead in the enemy territory and now we

01:40:44.600 need a lot of supplies uh from the backlands to keep it up and to enforce it and to spread it

01:40:50.120 yeah well said by both of you and to give my own take on this i've talked about it in so many

01:40:56.780 videos and so many podcasts over the last year so i might repeat myself but i will do it anyway

01:41:01.220 uh i definitely encourage everyone to go into well not everyone but for a young man if you

01:41:07.300 haven't yet decided on your sort of your your path you you can go into politics because many

01:41:14.200 these parties they do need support in terms of you know competent and driven young individuals

01:41:20.440 who can put their um yeah put their focus into that so we have in in sweden for example the

01:41:26.360 sweden democrats we have an election coming up next year a massive election it will be so

01:41:32.760 and i know i you know they're good-hearted people in the sweden democrats but they could also use

01:41:37.480 some more talent some more driven young people in there to push the party in a more pro-swedish and

01:41:43.000 pro-european um direction so yes let's look at one uh like very concrete uh thing and real thing

01:41:52.680 is the remigration summit 26 obviously i'm going to shill for that uh behind the scenes the

01:41:58.200 preparations are going on we have very uh clear idea about the place and the date soon there'll

01:42:03.720 be an announcement and this could be maybe your starting point to get connected to get to know

01:42:09.160 other people into getting involved in activism on the european level all right yes i i'm sure um

01:42:17.320 we will spread the message far and wide on on x and on telegram when when it comes so yes we have

01:42:23.480 from duxel 153 the migration crisis started you if you pull up you can pull up the super chats

01:42:30.840 on stream yard in the comments started if you click them it'll pull them up on screen it might

01:42:34.600 be a bit easier we can read them along as you're as you're doing them

01:42:39.960 now now i'm exposing myself to as being a boomer here how to do this now if you click on comment

01:42:47.240 and then click on starred yes there we have them there you go and if you click on one of them it

01:42:53.160 should pull it up on the screen let's see show ah nice now learn something new excuse me everyone

01:43:01.080 this my first live stream actually i streamed some of twitch like when i was gaming but it was like

01:43:06.520 10 years ago so anyway here we have it the migration crisis start with we're schaffen does

01:43:12.440 you just responded with a dumb strategy of diffusion yes indeed and this is usually what

01:43:17.560 i talk about the moral framework and the meta-political landscape the overton windows so 0.86

01:43:24.440 the issue was no longer that this is economically good for us this is not something that will

01:43:30.040 benefit us this is we are we're so virgaffendas basically means we'll get through it we'll push

01:43:36.360 through we'll we'll accomplish it we're we're getting it done so it was not you know any sense

01:43:41.720 of it being good for europeans and this was a quite revealing moment as well that we had a same

01:43:46.680 similar thing in sweden where we had frederick rein felt so a former prime minister he said

01:43:52.280 open your hearts so he basically admitted that this will only cost us money because previously

01:43:57.560 they had said immigration is needed to save our pensions and to keep the economy going and all of 0.98

01:44:03.800 these things but then he said like okay i know the jig's up everyone understands that this mass

01:44:09.160 immigration from the third world it only costs us a fortune every year so he said open your hearts

01:44:14.760 so this is what i mean with the meta politics as well that this way of thinking about something

01:44:20.200 that not what is good for us but what is good for them and that is you know the as you martin you

01:44:25.800 made a really good post a metaphor of a spaceship saying that it's the script the system of the

01:44:31.480 spaceship it's against us in so many ways and that is you know meta politics is us coming in to you

01:44:37.240 know hack the the script and make it better for us so do you have any comments on on that

01:44:44.040 i agree um it was um a big like germany is a big problem for europe right now but it also shows

01:44:51.720 that we have to reform germany and reconquer germany otherwise it uh the current german

01:44:57.080 elite will drag europe down because you the european union is germany if you pull germany

01:45:01.640 out it breaks down financially that's a problem that they are using their financial power to

01:45:06.680 enforce the crazy anti-white guilt-ridden ideology right now and uh yeah i completely

01:45:14.920 completely agree with that and uh especially german patriots have a big responsibility here

01:45:20.040 and we try to get it fixed

01:45:22.740 Keith

01:45:24.700 do you have anything to say to that

01:45:26.420 no I agree

01:45:28.760 I agree on the anti-German 1.00

01:45:30.180 alright

01:45:32.720 okay then

01:45:34.320 thanks for having two fantastic guys

01:45:36.880 yeah it's my pleasure

01:45:38.000 it's my pleasure and honor to have you both here

01:45:40.480 and yeah we need to

01:45:42.280 network we need to combine

01:45:44.260 our minds to

01:45:46.080 figure out ways forward

01:45:48.120 so yeah and thank you for the super chat

01:45:53.640 we need a concrete plan for remigration on a european level can you guys coordinate to

01:45:57.880 release such a costed specific plan messaging on social media i will say the following that

01:46:02.920 martin in his book remigration it is here in the in the library somewhere uh he details it quite

01:46:09.560 well there the logistics of it and this will be when it comes out in english i will chill it as

01:46:14.520 much as possible as well because it's a really worthwhile read and it's super necessary to you

01:46:20.280 know present the logistics of it so usually that's something i get asked often like okay you propose

01:46:25.960 re-migration but how is it to be done uh logistically and everything like that so martin

01:46:31.320 he does it very well in in uh that book then of course i'm sure we can promote more strategies

01:46:37.400 on social media as well regarding it do you guys have anything to to say to this uh to to joe gaskins

01:46:43.240 there i would say trust me there will be plenty of re-migration papers and proposals next year

01:46:51.800 we've reached the tipping point i see it i see the first signs of it there will be so many ngos 1.00

01:46:57.560 being founded so many people from academia suddenly coming out with writing positions

01:47:02.040 and papers you already see it right now on x because now it's the time where these people

01:47:06.760 the fence sitters see oh you can say those things without getting cancelled oh el musk is talking

01:47:11.560 about white genocide on x oh well then i can talk about why migration is bad and so i think we're

01:47:17.800 going to see a tipping point that's always how change happens very slowly nothing and then bam

01:47:21.640 it explodes and i think 2026 will be the explosion of re-migration also in the more moderate circles

01:47:28.920 which also means in circles with money knowledge academia so uh yeah i've written this book which

01:47:35.000 was uh not too radical but uh too early in a way and i think in 2026 we're gonna see an explosion

01:47:41.240 of writing ngos policies papers and so on yeah i also want to give a shout out i do believe the

01:47:48.200 gentleman in question is watching this perhaps he is jeff all here in sweden he recently together

01:47:53.560 with two compatriots he started a think tank called heimer and they have done great work

01:47:58.520 already in just you know doing sort of the the hard legwork for the sweden democrats and for others

01:48:03.800 to to you know have a good foundation in terms of you know documents and calculations and

01:48:09.080 everything like that so there is a lot you can do on outside of the actual political arena that you

01:48:14.520 can directly just you know send it as a pdf to uh someone in politics you have contact with so there

01:48:20.520 are things you can do to you know yeah supply ammunition to the guys and girls in parliament

01:48:25.320 already so i know in sweden for example i'm quite optimistic um maybe in a year either i will be

01:48:31.720 very optimistic or very pessimistic depending on the how the election goes but we do have

01:48:36.120 voices now in sweden that are quite assertive when it comes to tougher measures because we have so

01:48:42.280 many crazy things happening um all the time basically so and yeah as keith said we should

01:48:48.040 take heart from the success um we have had um do you want to comment anything about that keith

01:48:54.120 commentary no i'm excited to see uh to see what merton's gonna produce what he was alluding to

01:49:00.520 there all right cool um here we have thank you for the super chat and this we we responded to

01:49:08.200 already passage press will publish the english version of remigration martin sellner's fine book

01:49:15.160 so yeah more information about that will come out later on and then we have here

01:49:23.640 large auger he says do you think europe could have a union with democratically elected

01:49:30.040 government and president voted in by all ethnic europeans exclusively living within this union

01:49:38.360 uh it's a tough question uh i would like to see perhaps the eu not as we have it right now but

01:49:45.160 of course very much so if you have a big bulky guy spent five years bulking and now it's time

01:49:50.760 to cut down for summer so that's how we view the eu a lot of fat on it that needs to be cut away

01:49:56.040 so a lot of bureaucracy basically needs to be cut away but a lot slimmer and stronger eu more

01:50:00.920 effective and i would like to see perhaps one man with executive power such as they have in the u.s

01:50:07.000 i think that the u.s a large reason for their power is that they have one man somewhat in

01:50:13.560 charge i understand fully well that trump isn't in charge of everything but it gives some leverage

01:50:18.360 at least to have one guy who who calls the shots then about democratically elected governments uh

01:50:24.520 it's a tough question for sure what do you guys have to say about this i'd be against that

01:50:30.280 personally i mean that is a very uh kind of federalizing proposal um you do see some of the

01:50:36.200 the more like the very europhile leftist parties in the european parliament allows them support

01:50:41.720 that that at the european parliament elections uh you wouldn't actually vote for your national

01:50:47.400 parties as it works now and you send some of those meps off to the eu but you'd actually vote for

01:50:52.440 these pan-european blocs like oh i'm going to vote for the you know the esn or whatever the

01:50:57.480 european groupings are yeah i'm against that because i just see it as a you know it's again

01:51:01.880 a move further away from from nation states and it kind of it legitimizes it more um that you have

01:51:08.360 this like one central figure and they can kind of rule by fiat over europe then i'd much rather go

01:51:12.920 the opposite direction and and hand more power to the national governments and then they can

01:51:17.640 you know kind of appoint their own representatives for the european level

01:51:25.240 i also tend to disagree i have to say a part of me would like it you know because it would

01:51:31.800 make europe strong and i think it will also help the survival of the european national identities

01:51:37.480 because like pattern nationalism is a big misunderstanding if we as a small nation

01:51:44.360 only focus on ourselves then in the long run we will be destroyed by outside powers and only if

01:51:50.760 we bind together and stick together then you're strong enough to survive to giving up some parts

01:51:57.560 of sovereignty it might sound crazy that i say this right now as the abolished eu guy but that's

01:52:02.520 that's my long-term position giving up sovereignty might be the best decision to keep up your freedom

01:52:11.080 to keep up your your ethnocultural identity just as we as citizens give up our sovereignty but

01:52:16.360 we have more freedom in a in a rule of law state than we would have an anarchy but at the moment

01:52:22.360 i think it would not be possible because there is no real european identity there's no european

01:52:27.640 ethos and the european union has done everything to destroy this ethos because those people who 0.71

01:52:33.160 could create this ethos actual patriots like traditionalists they hate the european union

01:52:39.320 dislike it and those people like the european union like it for the wrong reasons because

01:52:42.680 they're universalists and internationalists it's very easy to say we are european when you hate

01:52:47.800 your own nation i want those people who love the nation who say i would definitely put ireland first

01:52:52.360 i would put sweden denmark austria first if it came to a football match for example uh those

01:52:58.360 people need to create a european vision if those people create a european vision if there's maybe

01:53:02.840 a time of 10 20 years where normal people also understand that this other europe this different

01:53:08.600 european commu community is helping them and really serving them and protecting them

01:53:14.040 then this might become a possibility but at the moment i think it would not be viable and

01:53:19.720 not a good idea all right moving on we have david david lorentson afa represent afs representative

01:53:31.000 so that's alternative for sweden reason why i suppose i am against eu is because even if

01:53:36.520 nationalists come into power liberals would rather burn eu down than let go of power yeah i mean i'm

01:53:43.160 sure they will um resist as much as possible but the as far as i understand it at least the way

01:53:49.000 it's structured it's still you know it's still humans in there pushing the buttons so if it can

01:53:54.120 replace the humans or even better even simpler even faster replace the scripts in the humans

01:53:59.880 uh in their minds so they are not no longer anti-white but yeah i i see your point here

01:54:05.640 uh david that uh of course they will they will put up a hard fight but we're in for a fight anyway

01:54:11.080 so i mean it doesn't really matter if it'll be hard or not we're we're gonna try to do our best

01:54:15.720 to save our our civilization here what do you guys have to say about that yeah i agree um yeah i mean

01:54:25.240 the same argument goes for national governments you know you can say well we're not we're not

01:54:28.600 going to take power nationally the liberals won't go without a fight um you know they use it's it's

01:54:34.440 it's pretty simple i mean if we if we put nationalist governments and power in nation

01:54:38.680 states then they're going to be the ones with the representatives in the eu and then you know

01:54:43.000 uh bureaucrats that stymie them get in their way i mean they can be they can be fired and 1.00

01:54:47.240 replaced you know it's it's certainly doable yeah um i i i think it's a bit different because

01:54:56.600 obviously like um there's no alternative to our nation state but there could be an alternative to

01:55:01.160 the to the to this european union but i also think we need to fight for it but uh it brings

01:55:06.600 up a very important point so the left-wing liberals our enemies see the european union as

01:55:10.680 something great and as the last stronghold and they are like fleeing to the european union a lot

01:55:16.840 of german ngo people um end up working there so i think they really see this as their institution

01:55:23.080 and try to turn into a stronghold.

01:55:26.120 So conquering it, conquering this last stronghold,

01:55:29.740 this Mott, I think that's the Mott and Bailey,

01:55:33.680 you know, the thing up there is the Mott, I think.

01:55:35.880 This will be very hard.

01:55:37.140 I think it has to be done,

01:55:38.840 but maybe it's easier to do it from the outside.

01:55:41.600 Let's see.

01:55:43.840 All right.

01:55:47.020 My question for Martin is that,

01:55:49.200 aren't there some merit to pan-Europeanism

01:55:52.080 by the existences of the identitarian movement yes i already mentioned it so the identitarian

01:56:01.200 movement is a european movement it's i would say the the first really identitarian nationalist

01:56:08.000 patriotic but also very european movement that still exists and also the biggest that's also

01:56:13.840 why our logo is the lambda which is a logo which is not does not come from a certain national

01:56:20.000 tradition europe but from ancient greek so it's so old that everybody basically can adhere to it

01:56:25.280 and we have been very pro-european from the beginning and um we our stance here is basically

01:56:31.360 we are for europe but not for this union and our job as identitarian activists is as an avant-garde

01:56:38.160 an activist avant-garde in our prospective nations to prevent the rise of petty nationalism so

01:56:43.040 to rise national uh energy identitarian energy and identity but to lead in the right direction

01:56:50.560 and to prevent it from being exploited and being put into next brother's war so that's that's also

01:56:57.200 uh very important but um the island um generation identity doesn't have an official stance towards

01:57:04.160 the european union it was never part of our activism i also don't think we should turn it

01:57:10.240 into an active campaign but i personally as a european identitarian i'm really against this

01:57:15.360 european union all right from david again question euro forces countries to share monetary policy

01:57:26.080 across vastly different economies one size does not fit all growth pot from own currency um

01:57:33.680 um yeah i mean this is a quite this would require quite a bit of time to discuss the

01:57:39.520 the euro uh per se so i will just leave it leave it at that and um and we have still you look with

01:57:46.560 all the swedish and danish crones here you know like uh yeah true yeah i thought you were rich

01:57:52.800 but i see it's just crones and as euros yeah yeah yeah it's unfortunately not euros or pounds

01:57:57.520 then we have

01:58:00.020 Alogarfennein 0.93

01:58:02.380 from Denmark also

01:58:03.760 free Joel Davis, his current jail is now

01:58:06.260 in

01:58:07.140 human rights abuse and should have been shut

01:58:10.300 down decades ago, read the

01:58:12.120 article, yeah I think

01:58:14.000 the Australian regime is getting quite

01:58:16.240 sort of similar with Canada

01:58:17.900 I don't know what's going on in this

01:58:19.820 Anglo colonists 0.71

01:58:21.780 they're getting quite crazy

01:58:23.060 to be honest

01:58:24.880 can you create right-wing think tanks get sponsors like elon and others to help out

01:58:33.340 like soros does on the left imagine if guys like you were paid to do this full time yeah imagine

01:58:38.200 that that's um i really don't know why that is to be honest that we have so because we have so

01:58:43.220 many wealthy guys in in germany in sweden as well but they they are not as generous as they are on

01:58:48.300 the left side i can tell you there um so anyway i i'm not gonna be super bitter about it we have

01:58:54.000 elon musky portex but for all millionaires out there it's time to it's time to understand that

01:58:59.440 your civilization and your lives also depend on us actually winning this thing so try to be a bit

01:59:04.160 more generous um yeah do you have any any comments on that my my friends yeah send us all money yeah

01:59:13.600 no i just can't stress it i mean we have a huge apparatus that is state funded and funded by

01:59:19.840 by big business entities, global money,

01:59:24.560 and they're working day and night professionally

01:59:26.620 to destroy our nations.

01:59:28.340 And people who think that we can win this

01:59:30.260 by just doing their free time on weekends

01:59:32.460 while having other day jobs, they are oblivious.

01:59:37.100 Unfortunately, in the right wing,

01:59:38.560 there's still this anti-intellectual, anti-activist culture

01:59:41.360 of being a professional activist. 1.00

01:59:43.400 Oh, that's stupid. 1.00

01:59:44.180 Just left-wingers are doing that. 1.00

01:59:45.580 And the same people who say universities are useless,

01:59:49.200 we don't need humanities and that's a very very negative attitude that actually is one of the

01:59:54.240 reasons why conservatives always lose to quote quote target so yes please support the show

01:59:59.440 europa keith um the gold one and myself all right keith debate andrew gold especially after he

02:00:09.600 debated laws okay so that's uh an encouragement for you keith if you want to i'm i'm down and

02:00:15.680 and andrew gold you can have me on i'll be respectful i didn't even miss this andrew gold

02:00:20.880 guy is he famous he's kind of new on the scene and in the last few years all of these like uh

02:00:28.200 youtubers have popped up in the uk especially you know like constantine kissin and some of

02:00:32.480 these guys that do kind of the sort of like nationalism like free speech yeah and is this

02:00:38.200 andrew gold is he left-wing communist libertarian what is he he's like uh i guess he's classical

02:00:43.780 liberal um i think he has some kind of media background but yeah i don't know especially in

02:00:48.580 the uk for some reason a lot of these people have popped up um like yeah civic nationalism

02:00:53.860 classical liberals i guess because nationalism has grown so much there that they're you know

02:00:58.180 a lot of people are trying to get in on it with more respectable mainstream this is

02:01:02.980 sagona car 10 years ago i mean it is a very very late to the party yeah obviously i know

02:01:08.980 steve lost but i've never heard about this uh gold all right assuming ethno-nationalist partners

02:01:16.420 govern across europe in the future the absence of a unified eu will mean irredentist countries

02:01:23.220 like hungary trying to return trianon and will return and plunge europe into another war russia

02:01:28.500 will 100 exploit this um yeah i don't know i i think yeah sure russia will exploit any weakness

02:01:34.980 in in europe of course they would because they feel threatened as well so this is our topic for

02:01:39.460 another time do you guys have anything to say about this comment there will not be a war for

02:01:45.460 trianon definitely not um the demography is not not uh not right there i think that's that's not

02:01:52.020 not a danger but i will i will use this comment to directly say yes obviously neither putin nor

02:01:58.180 xi jinping nor trump have our best interest in mind and that's good because they are not elected

02:02:04.100 by us and they would be traders if they had europe's best interest in mind so that's absolutely

02:02:08.100 clear but i also think that they are not as crazy as our own elites who not only have not our best

02:02:15.860 interest in mind but who want to actively replace us with first world migrants who hate us and hate 0.99

02:02:23.140 white people hate european people and i think this hatred of our own elites is at the moment even

02:02:28.660 more dangerous than the neutrality and the the 0.98

02:02:35.780 own interest of a trump of a putin decision

02:02:40.500 but obviously this only only can speak for western european countries i in the baltics

02:02:45.060 and finland it would see differently obviously but but i'm not speaking for like countries like

02:02:48.980 germany austria france for keith will there be more debates and collaborations like this in

02:02:57.380 In 2026, hopefully your YouTube will get unbanned.

02:03:02.020 The Tumblr sends its regards.

02:03:05.620 Well, you can follow Europa on Twitter, x.com slash at Europa.

02:03:10.640 We're actually dropping, on New Year's Day, a couple of hours interview slash documentary with Jared Taylor.

02:03:18.040 I had him for a couple of days in Ireland.

02:03:19.680 We filmed, it's kind of a retrospective on his life and his history of activism in this movement.

02:03:26.120 i think people will really enjoy it um rodney murray my film guy did a great job on it

02:03:31.240 and yeah uh europa.com uh if you follow us there it's a i guess i can i can plug this later on but

02:03:39.080 it's a basically a nationalist news aggregator our version of of drudge report those kinds of

02:03:44.120 websites which i think is is very important there's so much slop uh on social media now it can be hard

02:03:49.800 to to tell reality from fiction um a lot of people are on different platforms with all the censorship

02:03:55.500 so the idea is to have one hub where we can bring everything together and it's a good news feed as

02:04:00.620 well and yeah we're also going to be doing uh original media productions um i did a documentary

02:04:06.760 last year on on uh populism in poland and germany spoke dfd confederacy members uh follow us on

02:04:15.220 twitter for the jared documentary and yeah we'll have a lot more original media productions as we

02:04:21.120 grow all right awesome who are your favorite historical european leaders um well really long

02:04:30.220 answer but i would say one at least gustav iii here in sweden so he ruled during the latter half

02:04:37.080 of the um 18th century and essentially the um the political situation was that half of the

02:04:44.860 swedish parliament was sort of bribed by the russians the other half by the french and he

02:04:49.560 had enough of it so he staged a coup d'etat and took power and uh yeah took more power to to the

02:04:55.860 monarchy um so i was always inspired by it and he did it in a quite clean way so there wasn't even

02:05:02.360 any bloodshed because he was so meticulous in the planning and um everything like that so i think

02:05:07.340 he's quite uh quite inspiring do you have any favorite historical leaders

02:05:14.500 um i guess a couple of figures i'm kind of fascinated by will be

02:05:21.760 bismarck and napoleon i guess that's not uh it's not really out of left field but it just uh you

02:05:27.760 know as like paradigmatic like great men of history they're really they're really fascinating

02:05:32.220 it's like an endless an endless well on them if you if you start digging into them um i released

02:05:37.500 book last year uh napoleon's final reflections is a his is uh it was based on a memoir by his

02:05:45.260 his physician in his final exile um which i just found absolutely fascinating like his it's very

02:05:50.780 like candid reflections on his life where he actually gets into quite a lot of of his own

02:05:54.700 political philosophy and justifications um you know he's an ambiguous figure from my perspective

02:06:02.300 um but you know great man of history they're kind of beyond good and evil right so very fascinating

02:06:12.380 yeah there are also many many i could mention i just want to bring one up um prince again

02:06:17.980 of savoy he was a great man in my opinion um because he was uh like a european of all the

02:06:25.340 latter and he was um the reason why the balkan has been freed from the ottoman empire and um

02:06:31.500 he was a was a great guy also he lived in vienna so

02:06:38.060 all right if eu is destroyed and replaced with a new pan-european block will have the issue of

02:06:44.060 founding members blocking out other countries for petty nationalist reasons for example

02:06:48.780 c greek and bulgarian demands over north macedonia yeah fully possible fully possible i mean all of

02:06:54.780 these things they will always need to be ironed out but i think this a new block could just do

02:07:00.460 the same by bribe these nations with money and if you bribe them with money and if you basically only

02:07:06.300 can win the national election when you get this new european money yeah then you can have a good

02:07:12.380 influence but you could use this influence for good by supporting right-wing parties supporting

02:07:17.420 a cultural revival there so i think that this this new pan-european block would have no problem

02:07:24.300 because you don't need to be anti-european anti-nationalistic and universalistic to be

02:07:29.820 against this petty nationalism so that's that's a big uh wrong dichotomy we'll say ah it's either

02:07:36.460 us or war it's either us or nationalistic brother war again it's just this is completely wrong there

02:07:41.340 are a lot of great right-wing european concepts uh pan-european federalist european concepts

02:07:47.180 written and thought out by right-wingers by nationalists and so we really don't need this

02:07:51.580 left universalists to have a european unity the former austro-hungarian empire was the

02:07:59.660 ideological conservative counterweight to the liberal agnostic or protestant ideology in europe

02:08:04.860 that led to the current hyper liberalism how can we establish a similar counterweight well i think

02:08:10.780 my my short response here would be meta politics uh to shift the the way how especially our young

02:08:17.260 how they think about europe and i i'm quite optimistic here if you look at zoomers especially 1.00

02:08:22.060 zoomer men they are you know fully well perhaps i'm too optimistic here but from what i've seen 0.99

02:08:27.740 at least many of them are fully on board with a sort of a higher ideal they don't they're not

02:08:33.340 satisfied with the sort of civic nationalist european identity based on values like you have

02:08:41.020 now now we're talking about agartha hyperborea we're talking about empire we're talking about

02:08:46.060 you know these cool things so i'm quite optimistic in you know winning that battle simply by

02:08:52.220 posting cool things to be honest like shifting how they how how the young think do you guys have

02:08:58.220 any thoughts here well i'm i guess i'm not a fan of the austro-hungarian empire is like the ultimate

02:09:07.980 multi-ethnic empire without really a core identity but uh i i don't know it's it's in the realm of

02:09:14.540 fantasy to me talking about like how are we gonna build a anti-liberal imperium or something i think

02:09:21.340 those trends are dictated by larger forces and i think we're moving into a decentralizing era

02:09:27.100 we're not going to get some big uh uh tradcon multi-ethnic empire anytime soon

02:09:37.100 it was it was multi-ethnic but it was european multi-ethnic so

02:09:41.020 So that would be the difference.

02:09:43.200 But yeah, I also wasn't a big fan of it because in the nationalistic tradition in Austria,

02:09:49.940 you also tend to see it kind of, as they called it later, a prison of the peoples.

02:09:55.920 And it was the European nationalism that in the end crushed it.

02:09:59.020 It was a monarchistic empire.

02:10:00.380 But as I grow older, I see it more and more also in a positive light.

02:10:05.180 um because uh the problem with an empire an empire always has to be in a way multi-ethnic 0.99

02:10:12.880 unless you kill all the other ethnicities and then um yeah uh repopulate the space with your own 0.99

02:10:19.660 nation and your own people which also um obviously doesn't work and isn't a good thing to do 0.76

02:10:24.400 and the problem i think with national like with just nationalism is that we have this hyper nation

02:10:31.240 the united states of america which is the only nation of that scale why because they had this

02:10:35.940 broad new territory where they could found something completely new and then this real

02:10:41.020 melting pot of european people mass immigration of very likely people and then they mix them again 0.98

02:10:45.740 and now it's inner mobility so if you say they're only nation states globally nobody's allowed to

02:10:50.420 create a multinational entity empire the united states will forever rule everything because there

02:10:56.400 will never be such a hyper nation which controls such a great space so many people so many power

02:11:01.500 and so much money so i see it also a bit differently right now but i think we cannot revive that in um

02:11:07.840 like like um it was in the past but i agreed that it was a counterweight to the

02:11:14.020 the lessocracy of uh liberal anglo merchant and trader mindset that that's uh it's okay man we

02:11:22.940 You have the EU, you know.

02:11:26.940 All right.

02:11:27.940 Thoughts on Günther Fehlinger, Jan, from Austria.

02:11:31.940 I know precious little about him, so I'm just going to pass the question along to you, Martin.

02:11:36.940 He's the candidate for the European president, you know.

02:11:39.940 He will, in the end, become the president of the European Union.

02:11:43.940 Support abolition, though.

02:11:46.940 Okay, yeah.

02:11:47.940 Yeah, I've seen some

02:11:49.760 posts on Twitter. I don't know if he was

02:11:51.860 actually, you know, sincere or

02:11:53.740 if he was just trolling people or

02:11:55.460 what is going on. But yeah, okay.

02:11:58.100 Then I will have to look into

02:11:59.460 the man. It's a bit like

02:12:01.520 Clavicula, you know, like an older Austrian 1.00

02:12:03.720 version of Clavicula. Okay, right, right.

02:12:06.040 Which is crossed with a totally

02:12:07.380 pan-European federalist.

02:12:10.400 All right, cool, cool.

02:12:12.080 All right, Markus, thank you very much for

02:12:13.780 hosting this. Good luck to all three of you.

02:12:15.900 Yes, thank you very much. Thank you for

02:12:17.660 the server chat so yeah i think we can round up now uh martin would you like to tell the audience

02:12:23.500 where they can find your work yes you can find me on x and i will also keep posting on english there

02:12:31.660 and probably start as a new also more english speaking project soon you can also find me on

02:12:37.020 telegram i have an english and a german channel and yeah if you're interested i also have a little

02:12:42.300 information page is called whatisremigration.eu that i summarize my proposal for remigration

02:12:49.260 as soon as my book comes out in english you also find it there all right awesome and keith where

02:12:54.940 can people find your work yeah if you want to get all my writings you can go to keithwoods.pub

02:13:01.740 you'll find links to my socials there as well and then like i said europa.com is the nationalist

02:13:08.620 news aggregator that we're going to be building into 2026 uh check that out all the socials are

02:13:13.500 linked there as well um i think people will like the site find some use for it and uh perhaps you

02:13:19.980 become return users and yeah thanks for hosting this marcus this was a this was a good debate

02:13:25.420 very cordial uh not quite internet blood sports but yeah i think martin said this there hasn't

02:13:31.340 really been many debates in our scene for a few years so sometimes it's it's interesting to revisit

02:13:36.780 some of these questions in a friendly way yeah all right awesome thank you to everyone who super

02:13:42.940 chatted and thank you to everyone who checked into to listen and watch as well so i wish everyone a

02:13:49.500 Good evening and goodbye.

The Golden One - December 30, 2025

The Great EU Debate – Abolish or Reform？ Keith Woods vs Martin Sellner

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