00:00:00.000so i have two distinguished gentlemen with me two titans of european nationalism i don't think
00:00:07.200anyone needs an introduction so uh gentlemen i'm very happy and proud to have you here a warm
00:00:12.240welcome to you thank you very much for the invitation all right so before getting into it
00:00:21.600i will let martin have the the opening uh presentation of his um of his take on the
00:00:26.960matter and as you see in the um the title we're gonna discuss and debate whether to strive for
00:00:33.840abolishing the eu or reforming the eu so just in the chat i have instructed my moderator to try to
00:00:42.000keep the chat as clean as possible so no no foul language no slurs no nothing approaching hate
00:00:49.200speech or anything like that so we're all civilized ladies and gentlemen here so we need to um yeah
00:00:55.440reflect that in in the chat so all that said i will let martin now take the stage and um yeah
00:01:03.680martin make your case for uh abolishing the eu yeah first of all thank you very much for
00:01:11.680inviting both of us and making this possible i think maybe the last debate in the old year and
00:01:18.880the whole thing is not so much in the center of attention anymore but it was a big debate among
00:01:24.160the european right with several positions and i also read the and retweeted the article by
00:01:29.200keith woods which i think is very good but i have a slightly different position which i want to
00:01:33.760summarize now quickly and then we get into debates so i think important is that we are not opponents
00:01:41.200we are i think on the same page of most things and i think we should agree on three core truths or
00:01:48.000at least i hope we can agree on them and debate on this basis so demography is the highest value
00:01:55.120of any state policies can change states can change forms of government can change but
00:02:00.160demography is the most important thing the ethnocultural continuity number one number two
00:02:05.200the great replacement is the greatest threat at the moment to this ethnocultural continuity because
00:02:13.520it is irreversible and number three the absolute priority of any policy any strategy any idea
00:02:20.560ideology has to be re-migration which is the solution to the great replacement so democracy
00:02:26.000is the highest value great placement as the biggest threat and then re-migration as the
00:02:30.720absolute priority and i think that's the could be maybe a common basis and if this is the framework
00:02:38.000on the basis then i think it's quite clear that um if you look at the whole situation a big picture
00:02:43.520right now exiting the european union or abolishing it all together when enough nations exit creating
00:02:50.400something new besides it maybe even together with um non-european powers and nations should at least
00:02:58.880be a possibility and should be at least be an open option and any damage it does to economy
00:03:05.760or geopolitical sovereignty would be worth it if it speeds up the process for re-migration
00:03:13.440before i will give it to keith i want to also clear away three misunderstandings
00:03:19.200first i don't claim that the european union is the sole cause of mass migration
00:03:23.360we have clear proof of that norway and the uk before and after brexit so progressivism
00:03:30.080this anti-white anti-european hatred and mass migration it's not a conditio sine qua non the
00:03:36.800european union and obviously if we exited or if it's abolished that's not the magic wand we still
00:03:42.240have a lot of issues and problems but the european union is definitely enforcing those rules and is
00:03:48.080an factor a very important factor of mass migration especially for smaller states like my own one
00:03:54.160austria for example now point number two i'm not obsessed with abolishing the european union for
00:03:59.840its own sake my position is a bit simpler more strategic i think um as i said before exiting
00:04:06.560the european union must be a legitimate option for european patriots so you're not anti-european
00:04:11.760you're not a trader when you talk about that and i think in the moment if you surrender this point
00:04:19.200it is threat of exiting and abolishing the european union because we say it's un-european
00:04:23.600and it's geopolitically not correct even think about it then we use the most important tool we
00:04:29.280have in pushing for reform of the european union so i think even the idea is very important as a
00:04:34.240threat if you want to achieve the goal of reforming it and then third i fully believe that the
00:04:40.880european greater space needs to be organized and united in a way we need to cooperate economically
00:04:47.520on the level of security it was on border security that's true and i don't claim that on
00:04:54.960the current state of global con concurrence with the space race ai etc europe can become a splintered
00:05:03.200mosaic of small little nations i think this will not work in the long term and i think we have to
00:05:08.560cooperate but the european union is failing on all of those levels especially on the level of
00:05:15.600migration and freedom of speech so in the end i think it's way more likely at the moment to have
00:05:23.600right wing victories across europe which could in a scenario a very possible scenario
00:05:30.080leave the european union those nations form something else create bilateral
00:05:37.200operations with different powers create a remigration act and then pressure the european
00:05:42.000union even stronger to reform here and to wait to for a reform of the whole european union
00:05:48.560if both work at the same time achieving re-migration and reforming the european union
00:05:53.040i'm very open for it and i would be happy about it but i think at the moment with this priority
00:05:57.840of re-migration in mind we should at least consider and support other ideas as exiting
00:06:04.000the european union together exiting the european union or creating something else abolishing it
00:06:10.560all together so that's in summary in short my statement and i'm looking forward to debate about
00:06:17.040this issue all right well i have a brief written statement uh i may go over the time martin used
00:06:27.040but uh he can he can take it back in the response um this is basically a summary of my position that
00:06:32.080i argued in the previous couple of essays so obviously the topic is should the eu be abolished
00:06:37.760are reformed and as martin said you know we agree on the fundamentals demographic change immigration
00:06:43.200free speech has been a big issue recently with the digital services act um but i argued that
00:06:49.040the position of outright abolition that martin is calling for is strategically mistaken it's
00:06:54.880politically unviable and ultimately taking this position i believe will be self-defeating for
00:07:00.880anyone like us who cares about sovereignty identity destiny of the european people
00:07:07.440so in response to martin and others when this topic came up a couple weeks ago i
00:07:11.600wrote an essay abolished eu not so fast you can read that on my sub stack keith what's up pub
00:07:17.680and this will basically be a summary of the arguments i laid out there so i started out with
00:07:23.600just a political reality and to start grounded this in fact and the fundamental fact is that
00:07:28.640abolition of the EU is unpopular it's not a majority position anywhere in Europe across the
00:07:34.800continent most citizens believe their countries have benefited from EU membership and even if
00:07:39.920they are dissatisfied with that direction large numbers think it's flawed but very few think it
00:07:45.840should cease to exist even among right-wing voters support for exit is still a minority position in
00:07:52.240most countries and even our own likely voters and supporters anti-immigration populists generally
00:07:58.400don't favor outright abolishing or leaving the eu rather they just want to roll back its worst
00:08:03.680aspect and this matters because as i argue my essay we have limited political capital and we
00:08:09.520have limited time in many european countries like martin zone austria pro-remigration populists are
00:08:16.160the most popular parties now and they're on the precipice of state power the abolitionists want
00:08:21.840us to attach what's becoming a very popular idea national border security remigration to a very
00:08:28.800unpopular idea meaning we will have to spend more and more of our time and energy defending this
00:08:34.320less popular idea and its viability instead of focusing on what we know we can win
00:08:40.880so nationalist movements that attach themselves to an eu exit risk discrediting the broader
00:08:45.760nationalist project by tying it to an objective that voters see as reckless or unrealistic and
00:08:52.560a failed attempt at abolition wouldn't actually weaken brussels it would strengthen it if we
00:08:57.920allowed the eu to present itself as the defender of stability against ideological extremism and
00:09:03.760economic instability and we can argue about the details of brexit but i think it seems clear to
00:09:09.840most that exiting the eu has led to an economic decline for britain and that's without even the
00:09:15.360benefit of stricter border enforcement and this was after a process of exit that dragged on for
00:09:21.920years and has actually left most people in the uk now supporting rejoining the eu so the only
00:09:28.800example we actually have of a country doing this hurts the case of the abolitionists but my argument
00:09:36.000isn't just about this being a tough sell uh you know obviously if it was if it was good in principle
00:09:42.000we should pursue it but i think abolition misidentifies the source of europe's most
00:09:47.280serious problems particularly mass immigration and martin alluded to it there it's it's obviously
00:09:51.840not chiefly at the eu and the eu did not force west european governments to pursue mass migration
00:09:59.520our national elites chose that path willingly enthusiastically and immigration policy is still
00:10:05.760in practice largely national and where governments have wanted to restrict migration they've done so
00:10:12.400you look at cases like hungary and poland and that's inside the eu framework and where they've
00:10:18.000failed it's not because of it's well it is because of domestic political coalitions and constraints
00:10:25.360rather than eu directives typically and here again i think the example of brexit is helpful
00:10:31.200britain left the eu and immigration didn't fall it actually rose uh to record levels not only did
00:10:37.600it rise but the type of immigrants changed instead of importing eu migrants the uk has switched to
00:10:43.120importing millions of mostly south asian immigrants which probably everyone watching
00:10:48.080will agree has been a disastrous change of policy um third the eu is not just a switch you can turn
00:10:56.880enough there's a fundamental kind of logistical problem here and i argue that the abolitionist
00:11:01.520position is presenting too simple a picture of what exit would look like the eu is a deeply
00:11:08.720abetted legal regulatory economic structure it goes through all national administrations at all
00:11:15.680levels courts markets regulations and abolishing it would not be a clean break it'd be long chaotic
00:11:24.000uncertain process stretching over decades i think in most countries and there'll be huge
00:11:28.720transitional costs and unpredictable consequences uh so that may be a price worth paying if it was
00:11:35.600necessary to reverse course immigration but i don't think it is and this is the the key kind
00:11:42.800of strategic point for nationalists when we approach this question is as i argue my essay
00:11:48.000the power that you need to abolish the eu is the same power you could use to reform it in the
00:11:52.560direction we want if national disparities across europe were strong enough to dismantle the union
00:11:57.600they'd already be strong enough to fundamentally reshape it already there's a growing populist
00:12:02.720faction in the european parliament and it has been able to reverse some of the eu's excesses
00:12:07.360on migration and environmentalism and politics fundamentally is the art of the possible and the
00:12:13.360choice we present shouldn't be between using power to change institutions or just refusing to engage
00:12:20.480until the institutions are perfect if we do that we're effectively surrendering power altogether
00:12:27.440now obviously reform as i'm arguing for it doesn't mean accepting the eu as it is
00:12:31.840you know again me and martin probably agree on 90 plus of the problems with the current eu
00:12:37.680but it means forcing it to change direction and that's why in the subsequent essay i laid out
00:12:43.120what this could look like some guiding principles like subsidiarity um calling back competencies to
00:12:50.480the national level we can in the european commission restoring vetoes all things that
00:12:56.320have somewhat happened just by force of national governments in the last few years
00:13:01.120so a confederal europe that i'm proposing one that coordinates where coordination is necessary
00:13:06.560is not of a trail of nationalism it's just a what i see is a realistic expression of it under
00:13:12.400modern conditions uh and so i finally i'd say the abolitionist position just misunderstands
00:13:19.920timing on this we're not really in a revolutionary moment we are making great strides great growth
00:13:25.680metapolitically but this is a slow realignment and the most important task for people like me
00:13:31.040and merton is to win national governments to change norms to alter incentives for politicians
00:13:37.440and not to risk all the gains we've made on this and merton has been a big part of that
00:13:42.480on demanding an institutional collapse that the public just doesn't want at present so if the
00:13:50.620goal is real sovereignty real demographic continuity uh national self-government
00:13:56.000abolition isn't the best path and it's asking us to risk all the progress we have made
00:14:01.280on a gamble which i think is likely to remain unpopular so let's instead focus on a realistic
00:14:09.060path where we can direct the eu under national stewardship from multiple uh multiple states
00:14:15.120within the eu in fulfilling its proper role which should be serving the european people
00:14:19.580can shall i respond or perfect i'm here echo awesome just one quick question my one of my
00:14:37.180main arguments do you or don't you think that talking about or keeping open the option of
00:14:43.080exiting the european union because exiting and abolishing are not the same thing but at least
00:14:46.840exiting the european union temporarily would be a very important lever in creating pressure
00:14:54.040on the european union for reform uh i think to a degree that's true and the eu did kind of roll
00:15:04.840back some of the centralization because of brexit and the kind of populist moment that was happening
00:15:10.680with the uk but i think it's it's too simplistic to treat it like you know we can just exit and
00:15:17.880then re-enter when conditions change because i mean it's i think it's like a 10-year process
00:15:23.720for most countries you know it's there's no clean break here right you have all of the
00:15:28.200the legislative hurdles i mean the uk basically just adopted eu law as national law because it
00:15:33.960was too too complex to to change all of these things on exit uh there were unique conditions
00:15:39.080about the uk it had its own central bank its own currency it never really integrated into the u
00:15:44.200the way other countries did so i mean it could be a bargaining chip but it's not a very realistic
00:15:50.200bargaining chip and you're still going to an electorate presenting this as you know an equally
00:15:56.280good option to exit whereas i think most people will judge quite rightly that it would be
00:16:02.760economically ruinous and if we get to a point where we have nationalist pro-remigration parties
00:16:09.480in power um if that gamble fails they've basically squandered their political capital you know if if
00:16:17.080if if austria decides we're going to temporarily exit with italy or something um and you have 10
00:16:22.840years of of economic chaos and a failure to to build something lasting there and then the left
00:16:28.360to come back into power i think that effectively discredits the the nationalist movement for a
00:16:33.300generation after that so it's it's you know in theory is is the threat of leaving something that
00:16:39.520you can use against eu elites i mean yes but even there you basically need a large amount of the
00:16:45.640bloc together to do that to make it a viable threat because no one really takes seriously you
00:16:51.780know if austria poland leave um it's just going to serve as a great example for the eu technocrats
00:16:57.340when their economies collapse a couple years after and some pro-U party comes back into government.
00:17:05.180Yeah, I agree with that, but let's take just an experiment of thought.
00:17:10.380We have a right-wing government in Austria, which is heavily blocked by the European Union when it
00:17:14.460comes to reforming freedom of speech and starting re-migration, because that's the case. The European
00:17:19.900Union obviously is not the main, like the one who started it, but it's a very important factor.
00:17:26.540just look at all the fines poll that has to pay hungary has to pay european union is german using
00:17:31.820german money austrian money as well to push everywhere for progressivism hdpq plus rights
00:17:37.980open borders so it's a very very negative factor it's kind of a like a suicide engine for the
00:17:43.340european people that's what it became and if we had a right-wing government in austria which again
00:17:49.420would be sanctioned and hindered by the current european union and we have to go like take the
00:17:55.580current state of affairs and then this country of austria creates a union within the euro
00:18:01.660union maybe the intermarium you can call it whatever you want with a few different states
00:18:05.900and they do what joe calls the jugexit they just exit certain parts of european
00:18:13.020legislature so they don't accept for example the european union's authority in terms of migration
00:18:20.780policy anymore at the same time they create bilateral agreements trade agreements with
00:18:26.220russia america different powers obviously detrimental for the european greater space
00:18:30.220but this would make them in a way independent so this would give them the financial backing to do
00:18:34.940that and at the same time they create a remigration alliance they push for a rwanda plan which they
00:18:41.580pay themselves maybe greece will also join italy might also join this remigration alliance and
00:18:46.700and then those countries could effectively immediately and very quickly stop the Great
00:18:51.340Replacement and start mass remigration. So that would be a very viable solution. And in this
00:18:56.620scenario, when this would be a possibility, saying no, we don't do this because of sovereignty,
00:19:01.340because of European Union, because of solidarity, would go against our common base of the argument
00:19:07.560because it would delay remigration. It would cause further demographic damage. So what I say
00:19:14.120is there is a possible scenario and it's not that unlikely where leaving exiting the european union
00:19:20.600might cause economic damage yeah but it might speed up re-migration and i think this is something
00:19:27.640we have to talk about and i think if also with this uh thought experiment refuted your point
00:19:32.600that if we have the power to abolish the european union then we have the power to reform it no that
00:19:39.000is not the case in this example that i've just pointed out it might still be that germany which
00:19:43.080is the european union financially german money is controlling the european union and is destroying
00:19:47.560and dragging all of europe down with the crazy ideology that germany still would be left-wing
00:19:53.160and i to end with think if this would be done obviously we keep the euro obviously we stay in
00:19:58.040the whole um currency and economic union if it would kick us out three or four nations then the
00:20:04.120euro would crumble so they couldn't dare to do that and if you would do this then i would sure
00:20:09.080i'm sure this would put so much pressure on the european union that they would also quickly
00:20:14.440reform and perform quicker than if we did not do that so i think this thought experiment really
00:20:20.120shows that it's easier and obviously it's easier to just exit and reform this big and huge structure
00:20:27.000well one thing is since brexit i mean one of the lessons the eu elites kind of took away from that
00:20:32.280is they see it as they made a mistake allowing for uh cherry picking of which aspects of the
00:20:38.360the EU Britain wanted because you know they were able to resist customs union and the ECB and the
00:20:44.800eurozone and so on and keep a lot of law around customs that other countries didn't and then that
00:20:51.760made it very easy for them to exit compared to other countries and it made it a much more
00:20:56.420viable populist position and so the EU has kind of reoriented itself to take a stricter stance
00:21:03.500on that kind of cherry picking so as it would concern you know leaving but still getting the
00:21:08.700benefits of the free trade the eu offers um i don't think that's really going to be a viable
00:21:15.020path and of course the eu elites are going to see the game that's being played there and work to
00:21:19.500stifle that as well sorry if four nations or five nations will do it at the same time among them
00:21:25.980nations maybe also denmark who are contributors i think with the uk it was a bit different you know
00:21:31.100but they've all been doing their own thing a lot of countries also were happy that they would leave
00:21:36.540but um i think if uh if this is coordinated then i think the european union would have
00:21:42.940no choice than to leave these countries in the currency union because if they would not do this
00:21:47.980then the euro will totally break down and it would have just a small little ramp european union i
00:21:52.540think like just look at this thought experiment i think even just thinking about it floating it
00:21:58.220working towards it and then creating kind of alternative european union which is
00:22:02.860then really based on european ethno-cultural identity which can then from the scratch scratch
00:22:08.700create something way better also in the in the in the idea because the european union has a
00:22:13.740universalistic anti-ethnocultural dna it's the anti-imperialistic empire as bach also said
00:22:20.700they only think about human humanity it's a blueprint for the world state and when they
00:22:25.900say now they want to defend europe and european values they don't mean europe they mean universalism
00:22:31.260liberalism progressivism and they want to take over they want to take over the white man's
00:22:35.660burden they want to become the world police right now and they want to spread the west which means
00:22:41.180anti-white diversity ideology and i think creating something outside which in neutral could be this
00:22:46.860new european union would speed up the reform process so that's that's my point and i also
00:22:51.900think like reforming the eu means changing germany i think if german german pays money you know if
00:22:58.620germany still is left thing occupied uh territory and i'm afraid that germany will change very very
00:23:06.300late stage of the whole european reconquista but if germany still pays the money and attaches to
00:23:13.260this money you have to implement drag queen story times you have to open the borders you have to um
00:23:19.580like take this amount of refugees it will be very hard to reform the european union
00:23:25.500can you just interject with a question before you get to the point here keith it's quite
00:23:30.300important especially since martin you of course you have the best insight into the
00:23:33.820german situation wouldn't you say that if our goal is to also save germany you know the heart
00:23:39.420of europe isn't that easier done within the eu if germany is you know a stronghold of leftism but
00:23:45.740you have say sweden say the the neighboring countries to the east of germany all of these
00:23:52.140countries turning to a more patriotic pro-european stance isn't it easier than to also save germany
00:23:58.940if if germany is part of the eu and an eu that is a lot more right-wing than germany would be
00:24:05.340on its own it's just a quick question there absolutely i did could this could be um happening
00:24:11.260it will happen that the european union european parliament and then therefore also uh later on
00:24:15.900commission they will be more right-wing than germany the german government i agree with you
00:24:21.340but i think um changing the european union and push and pressure the european union can be done
00:24:26.140even better maybe outside of the european union and if there's a viable option like this alternative
00:24:31.740for europe this separate union of really right-wing pro-european states then you will see
00:24:37.660the brexit idea the exit is skyrocket in the polls at the moment people don't like it obviously and
00:24:43.340i also don't think we should make it a central topic of the debate because there is no alternative
00:24:48.860and it's even seems crazy and i have to say before the change in foreign policy of america
00:24:55.260i also didn't really think about it but i think now there's kind of a geopolitical window and i
00:25:00.620i feel a bit like the communists or let's see the um the communists against their will in eastern
00:25:07.900germany fell at the end of the soviet union i bet they did not think about the dangers of the
00:25:13.340structural chaos when the soviet union dissolves or the dangers for the geopolitical greater eurasian
00:25:19.500space and obviously the fall of the soviet union was a tragedy geopolitically for this space
00:25:25.180because this union was damaging them in their freedom and sovereignty and i think the european
00:25:32.140union is even more more dangerous than the soviet union and this whole structure we have right now
00:25:37.180because it is uh killing us it is destroying a 6 500 year old ethnocultural lineage and at the
00:25:44.300moment if you live in such a system if you live in the belly of the beast in a huge machine an
00:25:49.740engine that's that's created to destroy you every fractionalization every little freedom
00:25:55.820smaller spaces are better it sounds a bit a bit strange maybe but for example at the moment
00:26:01.580i'm very happy that austria is not part of the german state because it was austria part was
00:26:07.420part of this crazy german state then the afd would have like two three percent more in the polls but
00:26:13.180we would not have this freedom now in austria the freedom party now has um over 40 percent in the
00:26:18.780polls imagine if saxony also was a small entity at the moment obviously that's not for the future
00:26:24.780i don't want to have a fractionalized europe that is um and a small nation's nationalism
00:26:30.700like i don't know a polish prometheanism or joram hasoni puts it i don't think that's the future
00:26:36.220but at the moment right now with the highest priority of re-migration
00:26:39.900that's something we should at least think about openly
00:26:41.980yeah what you're proposing in terms of if a coalition of powerful countries come together
00:26:52.440within the eu to do that i mean again it would just be so much easier for them to force change
00:26:57.720on the migration rules um and that's already happened to an extent i mean countries like
00:27:02.420denmark and italy have pressured for a lesson of some of the pressures from the eu there was just
00:27:08.820a meeting on december 10th uh about the council of europe the this controversial section eight of
00:27:15.760the uh european charter on human rights about like family reunification and you're like you can't
00:27:21.540deport people if they're going to be separated from family this kind of thing um so some of
00:27:25.580some of this is being reformed even the eu migration pact ended up being a lot different
00:27:30.040in substance to what it was supposed to be originally in terms of some stricter rules for
00:27:34.440speed running deportations and use of third countries etc so these are things that can
00:27:40.720pretty easily be changed if there is a coalition of powerful countries there and again you know we
00:27:46.580can look at Hungary and Poland I mean they have kept their national sovereignty they haven't given
00:27:52.080into mass migration yes there have been pressures there in terms of defiance and so on but again
00:27:57.320that's something that's quite easily reformed if the will is there from larger countries
00:28:01.340And I think, you know, this is kind of the more fundamental question, but talking about is the EU just destined to be this anti-national globalizing left wing force?
00:28:12.480Well, a lot of the things you're talking about in terms of the migration pressures aren't really from the EU directly, but this is, you know, this is the post-war liberal consensus.
00:28:22.740this is human rights universalism and the document that comes up again and again is the one I
00:28:29.060mentioned the European Convention on Human Rights and you can see that even Britain is constrained
00:28:33.800by this now they have all of these channel migrants crossing hundreds every day some of
00:28:38.860these people are there for years getting trials and they get human rights lawyers and you know
00:28:43.080it has to be respected that you know they have to have certain conditions they have to live in
00:28:47.760hotels while they're being processed and they can't be separated from you know their girlfriend
00:28:52.320they met in england like all these like ridiculous rules that come from the european convention on
00:28:56.640human rights you know that's not even of of eu origin that's from the the council of europe which
00:29:01.800was formed prior to the eu um and the big architect of that was winston churchill so i think that kind
00:29:07.740of illustrates like the the eu came about at a time of the construction of this post-war liberal
00:29:14.920consensus human rights universalism you can see other western countries are obviously a part of
00:29:20.260this canada the uk is still a part of it and so a lot of times what is just the expansion of of
00:29:27.240this human rights infrastructure which is then enforced in national states through ngos and
00:29:32.120activism and human rights lawyers and activist judges uh sometimes we confuse that of being
00:29:38.180top down from the u whereas actually what you're seeing is a broad elite consensus across individual
00:29:44.460nation states across the people that lead the eu um that all believe in this and really voluntarily
00:29:50.220enacted and yes they used the eu to do that but that just gets to the point of if you have people
00:29:55.220that were ideologically more aligned with us uh there's nothing really constraining them from
00:30:00.140going in another direction you know britain or any country could leave the chr um and you know
00:30:07.480that's that's something we've seen with brexit is they still choose to be constrained by it
00:30:11.860And why are they constrained by it? Well, it's actually not because there's a European court enforcing it. It's because in 1998, the Blair government passed a law to make the ECHR domestic law. And this is how a lot of stuff works is this stuff is formulated on the global or the, you know, the continental level. And you have refugee conventions, you have the 67 refugee convention, which has a lot of this controversial stuff.
00:30:36.500And then national elites, because they're fully aligned with the post-war consensus, implement this into domestic law and basically hand over power to activist judges.
00:30:45.760So in the case of Blair, you know, he turns this into domestic law.
00:30:50.040And you say, well, why would a national government want to constrain themselves with these, you know, international human rights doctrines?
00:30:56.620Well, so that when future governments come in that want to deport people or close the borders, they're still constrained by this.
00:31:02.300So none of that is really fixed by leaving the EU.
00:38:54.480And there might be a position where staying in the European Union would be an actual treason to your people and to European, to the European heritage.
00:39:03.500And this scenario might, in my opinion, come sooner and might be more realistic than this whole gradual, decade-long reform of the European Union.
00:39:13.500I agree with you, we shouldn't do anything that's crazy.
00:39:16.520And I also agree with you, we shouldn't make it the main issue of our campaigns.
00:39:22.560People in Austria hate the European Union.
00:39:24.120it's um most disliked in austria maybe i'm also a bit biased here but i think uh we we
00:39:31.960i guess we're good representatives for for our nations in this but do i wish people to
00:39:37.080debate contribute more in that or to the get more from the opinion well i mean ireland suffered
00:39:44.040terribly due to eu governance after the the fiscal crisis in 2009-10 um and here i'm sorry but i have
00:39:52.920to blame the the germans um but this was kind of this does show one of the kind of fundamental
00:39:58.760problems of the eu is how it responded to the the financial crisis in 2010 and you see this a lot
00:40:05.880on x people kind of gloat about this now like the us has had huge growth uh in many sectors since the
00:40:12.200the financial crisis europe has basically been stagnant it was a lost decade um huge youth
00:40:17.880unemployment especially in southern europe and ireland suffered quite terribly in that as well
00:40:22.840because it under pressure from the eu to stabilize the banking system it gave a unprecedented bank
00:40:29.480guarantee to all of its private banks and then under further pressure uh from a german-led eu
00:40:35.960it guaranteed all of the the private bondholders so all of the you know the the rothschilds and
00:40:41.080the layman brothers and so on that that speculated and bought bonds and some of these banks when they
00:40:46.120they were riding high during the the celtic tiger here and the property bubble uh the irish people
00:40:51.720ended up paying all of those people back i think at one point ireland was was covering like 40 percent
00:40:56.880of of of the eu's uh banking debt in that crisis and that's actually an area where i think um the
00:41:03.620the german approach to economics was something that really set the eu back you know germany has
00:41:08.760this model of i forget maybe you know the term for it but the german economic model of basically
00:41:14.200you create kind of a rules-based order and you have a certain fiscal conservatism where the
00:41:19.560focus is to keep inflation low to avoid you know excessive spending or kind of chaotic government
00:41:26.760intervention Keynesianism and so the the approach that was pushed by Germany was to say that this
00:41:32.500was a result of recklessness from these peripheral countries like Spain and Italy and Greece and
00:41:36.760Ireland and to force austerity and so you know one benefit of having a larger union is if you have
00:41:44.160a union with whatever it is 450 million people if you have a coordinated fiscal policy
00:41:48.620when one area of your your uh region gets in trouble you can put money into it and deal with
00:41:55.280small shocks you know ireland is a country of five million people it would have been
00:41:58.900relatively easy for the the ecb to kind of you know turn on the money hose and and like help
00:42:05.420us get through a period of crisis instead what happened is austerity was enforced on these
00:42:10.000countries um the ecb didn't come in to prop up uh bar run when these countries had a problem going
00:42:16.560to the private bond markets to borrow because there was instability in their countries uh and
00:42:21.280so it forced years of austerity and degrowth and this created a kind of a doom cycle of course
00:42:26.400where you know austerity led to the growth which led to less investor confidence and this is how
00:42:31.760you got like 10 15 years of of of just you know like i said a lost decade in many parts of europe
00:42:38.560but you know even then you can look at that and compare it to covid um and after covid i mean
00:42:46.480they basically learned the lessons austerity was a disaster um after covid they took a very
00:42:51.340different position so after 2010 the eu implements uh the fiscal compact treaty um again very much
00:42:58.800german consensus on economics as a problem is like reckless spending and borrowing and so the
00:43:04.380EU implemented what I always thought was ridiculous rules that countries like they can't have a
00:43:09.420deficit beyond three percent of their GDP all these kinds of things that basically knock out
00:43:14.160like a Keynesian approach to economics of like when your country is in trouble you should stimulate
00:43:18.700it maybe prop up certain industries and we created rules against that that lasted per decade
00:43:23.980now when COVID started Germany itself was in trouble it could see that the the euro was
00:43:30.780potentially in trouble and germany was suffering the same things that southern european countries
00:43:35.020or the peripheral countries were suffering and i think it's an interesting it's it's an interesting
00:43:40.300case study because just because the will of the national governments was there specifically
00:43:43.900germany they just overrode all of this stuff the fiscal compact treaty they just threw it out no
00:43:48.820you can run deficits now um the stability treaty that we voted on that was passed in europe that
00:43:54.220was just thrown out the eu created like a pan-european uh basically fiscal stimulatory
00:44:01.400fund of of like 750 million euros to just pump into economies the eu has rules against uh propping
00:44:07.860up um state industries that was thrown out you know germany and france were allowed to subsidize
00:44:13.240industries that were in trouble so you know again that's a case where you look at uh laws and
00:44:19.400directives and treaties that developed over decades and were enforcing a very strict
00:44:24.360consensus of German kind of fiscal conservatism on Europe. And as soon as the larger players in
00:44:32.060Europe, namely Germany, as soon as they saw that this was actually constraining how they could
00:44:36.940operate, it was just ignored. And on paper, that shouldn't have been possible, right? We were all
00:44:41.220pledged to these treaties. We can't run deficits, yada, yada. But political reality came into play.
00:44:46.920and suddenly you see you know law can change for exceptions and if the political will is there all
00:44:51.560of this can be thrown out and that consensus that operated in the eu basically disappeared
00:44:56.200and instead of this austerity consensus of you don't stimulate you don't use the ecb to to buy
00:45:01.640bonds and to bail out countries and to be a lender of last resort all of that disappeared and
00:45:06.040basically flipped 180 and that was because the political economic reality of the time forced
00:45:11.080them to do so um so you could look at that example and say something similar with migration would be
00:45:16.760very possible you know if we can throw out all of these treaties that were decades in the making
00:45:21.000um rules around around lending and spending that we were told were absolutely sacrosanct if that
00:45:26.280could all just be ignored because we've you know just as nation states we've decided actually it'll
00:45:31.560be more beneficial if we take a different course here you can do that for any of the immigration
00:45:36.280directives as well um and i guess you know to get to your earlier point of of like well why
00:45:41.960you know you were kind of alluding to well it would be very difficult to do this within the
00:45:46.780eu and you have all of these directives that come down from the european union if i may just
00:45:51.520i agree with you but ignoring is just the first stage to exiting or abolishing it because if you
00:45:59.920ignore and then ignoring is no longer possible because there's so much threat and so much pain
00:46:05.640then the next step would be to get out i agree with you if we can act as if the european union
00:46:10.640the current state did not exist and enforce re-migration i'm absolutely for it i'm not a
00:46:16.240fetishist here from it's only about really only hyper laser focused on re-migration at the moment
00:46:21.440but if the europeanian becomes a hindrance and is a net negative when it comes to achieving
00:46:26.720immediate re-migration because every week we lose here is a is causes maybe even irreversible damage
00:46:34.720then we should keep the idea of exiting it open and why do uh why is it so popular the european
00:46:41.440union so why people don't want to leave i want to come here with an anecdote so i was in slovenia
00:46:45.840visiting patriots there and it told me that in the city of lubiana the major has now also
00:46:52.080put everywhere lgbtq flags although he himself is a conservative and told me yeah money from the
00:46:59.280european union is attached to that so the european union money is necessary to get elected in those
00:47:04.960poorer countries because if you don't get the european union money if the sanction you when
00:47:09.680you are in power you can cannot pay pensions you cannot create repair the roads and to have tap
00:47:15.200into this european money which is liberal left wing german money you have to in a way implement
00:47:22.560the ideology but if there's a different source of money if there's a different path where leaving
00:47:28.400the european union doesn't mean economic bankruptcy those nations would leave it
00:47:33.680yesterday immediately because they really hate the european union when it comes to
00:47:40.640these people these ugly faces this thunder lane everybody hates them the whole institution this
00:47:45.760flag is hated you know go to any patriotic any patriotic pub or demonstration in europe
00:47:52.000and show a european union flag you're going to be kicked out if you're lucky you know and that's
00:47:56.880that's just the matter of fact you know and i personally think if there's an alternative which
00:48:02.960is can push for immigration more quickly more thoroughly we should take it or to think about it
00:48:08.400i think where we disagree is that you think there's no possible scenario in which exiting
00:48:14.160or abolishing the european union can speed up re-immigration and here we differ here
00:48:19.200have a very different opinion i think there is definitely a possible scenario i don't know if it
00:48:23.520comes i'm not fixed on that i don't have a fetish here i don't really care about this european union
00:48:29.920this current state but i think that there is a real possibility in the future such a scenario
00:48:35.120should come up and if the whole i would say like identitarian right positions itself as being
00:48:41.360staunchly pro-european and even talking about that is an act of treason and this is bad then we miss
00:48:48.960a chance to think about that and we miss a chance to to have concrete plans here so i agree with
00:48:54.960most of what you wrote in your article i think all of your proposals to reform the european union
00:48:59.840are right but i think we should also create this idea of thought this thought experiment of leaving
00:49:04.320the european union temporarily creating an alternative european union creating a re-migration
00:49:09.360pact immediately creating charter cities in north africa around the plan a joint venture maybe with
00:49:15.360the support of private funded right-wing tech billionaires or maybe the united states of america
00:49:22.880and i know this is against carl schmidt's doctrine of non-intervention of non-spatial powers
00:49:27.920i know it's also not what's best for europe geopolitically and economically but economy
00:49:34.400and sovereignty are targets that are below the demographic survival so martin i have two
00:49:40.800questions for you first and foremost i saw a comment in the chat when will your eminent book
00:49:47.360re-migration a proposal be available in english and where will you publish it um it's being
00:49:53.440translated right now it will be published by passage press it's available for pre-order and
00:49:58.160will appear in early 2026. all right awesome i will definitely share that round now second question
00:50:05.840You said earlier, Martin, that the anti-European sentiments are inbuilt in the DNA of the EU, like the EU as a structure.
00:50:16.580Do you not think that is possible to change via metapolitics and changing the zeitgeist and the moral framework?
00:50:24.160Because if you look at, you know, I'm not going to give too much of my own opinion here,
00:50:27.740But if you look at most of the West, including, you know, Canada, Norway, the UK, US, all Western nations underwent this, you know, shift in the moral framework and metapolitical, you know, overtone window shift.
00:50:41.660Do you not think it's just a case that the EU, when it was, you know, came to, started its growth, its adolescent phase during the, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s, the zeitgeist was very much anti-white, anti-European.
00:50:56.880And do you not think that the EU itself, the people in the EU parliament,
00:51:02.260do you not think they can be changed via metapolitics sort of from the outside?
00:51:06.180Or do you think that the EU is destined to be anti-European?
00:51:12.860That's a very good question. I have to correct myself a bit.
00:51:15.840I think it can be changed, definitely.
00:51:18.520But I think it would be very hard work because, as I said, it's very much in DNA.
00:51:24.220they never wanted to preserve europe as an ethno-cultural entity but they always thought
00:51:30.220about gdp and economy plus on the same time the european union is a peace project insofar
00:51:36.860it didn't create the peace but as it was created in a way by also american influence that it only
00:51:43.020can survive in the pax americana the european union is completely incompetent like a ship that
00:51:48.780is only in a museum and we put it to water it sinks it's completely incompetent to survive
00:51:53.820in a multipolar world just look at what happens in ukraine right now they don't have a seat at
00:51:58.060the table there's no one voice of this european union because um of the whole structure it was
00:52:04.220constructed to be a geopolitically impotent and unique so a castrated economic entity that has
00:52:12.300no real geopolitical willpower of its own no identity and this is also in a way how many
00:52:19.740people see this flag and see this thing and it's just with the soviet union maybe the soviet union
00:52:24.540also could have been reformed yeah in a way and transformed into a nationalistic conservative
00:52:30.060non-communist entity but it was um laden with the associations in it were those elites who
00:52:37.100are complicit and all these elites in the european union i really despise them i despise them i
00:52:42.460dislike them we hate them and i think it's also just to end with a very good target the european
00:52:48.620union for anger and frustration because i cannot demand to abolish a state in in europe this would
00:52:55.180be criminal and i don't want it and obviously i'm i'm here for reform but the european union is
00:53:00.540something where we can go into this rhetoric of abolishing overthrowing you know um getting rid of
00:53:06.300bit and uh i think that this disgust for this elite in brussels and for what they've done and
00:53:14.580for this international organization is the most european thing right now and it's uniting
00:53:18.720europeans in a way and european nationalists i think it could be reformed but the elite has to
00:53:24.300go these people has to have to go completely clear them out they have to go away completely
00:53:28.700and it has to be reformed and rebooted completely.
00:53:33.340So Keith asked you this earlier also in the conversation
00:53:38.640and it's something that Gerard Taylor, I believe, said once
00:53:42.580that you can only be crazy in one aspect.
00:53:44.740So do you believe that when marrying sort of re-migration policies,
00:53:52.120do you think it would hurt the re-migration cause
00:53:54.860and the cause for an ethnocultural revival?
00:53:57.900Would it hurt our cause to be too anti-European Union?
00:54:02.460Because for me, as I see it, also, you know, Swedish perspective, of course, might be different in many other countries.
00:54:09.560But most people, they are for the EU. They like the EU.
00:54:12.160Do you think it would be like a too bitter pill to swallow to marry our re-migration with too hard of an anti-European Union stance?
00:54:27.900No, I completely agree with you, and I think Keith said something very intelligent, which is the most important thing, and also everything I say has to be seen in this perspective.
00:54:38.700Our goal is to win in our own nations.
00:54:41.380We have to win there, we have to become powerful here, and every argument that is hindering us in getting powerful in our nation does not need to become an exoteric argument.
00:54:51.240So, I know for an esoteric abolishment of the EU, maybe also like in the X sphere, it's very popular.
00:54:57.900But I would not advise the FBI or the FDA to make it the primary demand right now.
00:55:02.780As I said, if things change, if there's a real alternative, then it will definitely change.
00:55:07.500The moment is alternative isn't really viable, isn't really there.
00:55:10.860So I don't think it has to be forced upon the people.
00:55:14.020But there are many issues on topics that are not ideal for party politics
00:55:20.820I don't know, like OnlyFans, for example, or
00:55:22.900um degeneration smartphones and the problem and tick tock addiction all this kind of stuff
00:55:29.780i wouldn't advise a populist mass move in a party to make it a platform
00:55:34.000all right i have a question for keith also and this is something i get asked quite often as well
00:55:41.940when it comes to reform how would you go about it in in practical terms of course it's a very
00:55:47.320very long and deep and broad question but uh just give like a a few insights on how we could
00:55:53.120practically reform the eu yeah um i wrote an essay on kind of like proposals of what a
00:56:01.280you know a sort of nationalist themed eu could look like and yeah i agree with martin like i'm
00:56:06.840not with the federalists uh he was kind of beefed with some of them on twitter i'm not with these
00:56:11.960people that are like you know centralize everything eu identity should subsume everything that's like
00:56:16.840the pro-European position so I do I do kind of have a middle position I'm kind of more sympathetic
00:56:21.920to Martin in a lot of regards and so what I was laying out was a more confederal EU which is
00:56:27.960basically just returning important power to states one of the I mean one of the founding principles
00:56:33.380of the EU is supposed to be subsidiarity that decisions are taken at the most local level
00:56:38.520possible that more local identities and ethnicities should be should be empowered so I think all of
00:56:44.980that can be done under the EU. I think, you know, when Martin has said, well, it would be too
00:56:49.380difficult to do this within the EU. Well, the thing is, we haven't really seen an attempt at it.
00:56:53.260That's the thing, right? I mean, there are all manners of kind of vetoes that states have. And
00:56:58.180I think we see this with Poland and Hungary. And even in recent years, Denmark and Italy were able
00:57:03.860to get concessions and roll back some of the orders coming from the EU. So, you know, it basically
00:57:09.060functions the same way the left has been able to push it in their direction. You know, they didn't
00:57:13.300win one election and say, this is what the EU is going to be now, and we're going to promote,
00:57:18.640you know, diversity and so on. I mean, they implement laws, and then those become tools
00:57:24.600that activist judges and NGOs can use. In the same way, if you get a coalition of countries
00:57:29.860that are opposed to the direction, they can make use of vetoes that exist. They can push back
00:57:34.820against court orders. They can build a coalition around resistance, some of this stuff. And when
00:57:40.920it becomes politically unviable um at that point you know there isn't like some higher authority
00:57:46.260that's that's going to just keep uh imposing these fines or something um so if the will is there with
00:57:52.040national governments it can be reformed and you know even when martin says something like um you
00:57:56.680know the eu it promotes wokeism and it's it's just gone in a more and more leftist direction
00:58:01.180yeah that's true but i mean what what country in western europe is that not true for right i mean
00:58:07.080look how much more woke uh canada has become in the last 20 30 years so like when we talk about
00:58:13.360this you always have to ask the question like is this because of the structure of the eu or is it
00:58:17.740because of the ideology of the people that are there so you know slovenia gets government funding
00:58:23.820and it has to put up um you know lgbt flags and whatnot on its new transition something like this
00:58:30.100I mean, the question to ask is, if the AFD is in power in Germany, if, you know, National Party is in a government in Ireland, if you have all of these pro-immigration parties, is that going to happen?
00:58:41.760You know, are you still going to have EU funding tied to racial diversity and so on?
00:58:48.920And you have to keep asking that question of, like, how much of this is structurally because of the EU and requires tearing up that infrastructure versus how much of this is just an ideological problem that globalists are in power in our nation states.
00:59:03.340And, you know, we don't say that, well, you know, look, our nation state is currently working to dispossess its native population and replace its native population.
00:59:12.260This is a structural issue with the nation state. It was destined to go this way.
00:59:15.840uh no we say it's it's it's because of the ideology of people involved it's because they
00:59:20.520all subscribe to this human rights universalism and and they constrain themselves with these
00:59:24.580international norms same is true on on the eu level um but it's actually less you know it's
00:59:30.200it's actually less enforced on the eu level and it's more difficult to enforce it because there's
00:59:34.060no there's no enforcing body unless there's a consensus on imposing restrictions and fines
00:59:40.060on countries that that aren't going along with this so uh yeah so i don't see any any of the
00:59:47.260you know any of the kind of core issues of the you that martin has identified i don't see them as
00:59:51.260as being things that couldn't be changed once you get um nationalist parties in power um and again
00:59:58.060you know martin's argument is kind of well you know why not use the ultimate bargaining chip
01:00:03.500and have a few countries exit and you kind of speed along that process rather than the slow
01:00:07.660process of you know we're going to experiment with vetoes and we're going to maybe reform one
01:00:12.760of the treaties and we're going to uh get rid of of this norm that exists and implement this new
01:00:18.320norm and hopefully successive governments will implement it as well well i mean the fundamental
01:00:22.880thing is is just the you know the political chaos that that will create you know because
01:00:27.680it's not a question again we talk about economics it's it's not a question of like you know gdp
01:00:33.140line go up and we have to we have to grow the economy at all costs and that's a bigger concern
01:00:37.600than demographics. It's much more a political problem of trying to exit the EU. You're exiting
01:00:44.100the customs union. The EU has intentionally over decades hollowed out national bureaucracies to
01:00:49.640replace it with things that operate on the EU level. Just everything, every aspect of the economy
01:00:55.420and of political life, aviation authorities, customs enforcement, passport authorities,
01:01:00.640all of these things are built into our states over decades. And on doing that, not only would
01:01:06.900to be very costly you have a big capital flight um international capital like anticipates the
01:01:12.720political economic chaos that's going to create um there's a fall in free trade a fall in economic
01:01:18.200growth people move their investment elsewhere but then also you're going to have like a 10-year
01:01:22.520process for basically all of the focus goes into this process and i'd suggest that in that process
01:01:28.760things like remigration uh and demographic issues they're going to end up taking a back seat you're
01:01:34.380going to have to construct a new industrial policy. You're going to have to construct new
01:01:38.040trade agreements with every country you trade with. You're going to have to find ways to get
01:01:43.300out of all of these external treaties that exist. You still have the problem of other international
01:01:50.080bodies, you know, World Trade Organization agreements, the UN conventions on refugees,
01:01:55.900the ECHR. So it's not going to be a clean break. It's going to be a 10-year process.
01:02:00.940in that process you know we know most people are already against leaving the EU
01:02:05.420even if things change drastically and suddenly populations supported it I think they would flip
01:02:11.240very quickly and we see that with Brexit they voted to leave the EU I think in opinion polls
01:02:16.040now when they ask about rejoining it's like 60-65 percent want to rejoin that was a country again
01:02:21.580where they had their own they had their own monetary system they never joined the eurozone
01:02:25.780they opted out of a lot of the worst aspects of the EU it made a clean break a lot more possible
01:02:30.320uh london is this huge financial hub that exists very much kind of independently of the eu and
01:02:37.360that's this hub for international finance capital and that's where a huge amount of
01:02:41.040britain's uh economic growth comes from so there was a lot of unique things about britain
01:02:45.800and it was still a very costly five-year process you know uh immigration really took a backseat
01:02:51.760and people kept voting for the conservatives to try and get brexit done and at the same time
01:02:55.900boris johnson imported whatever it was a million plus south asians into the uk so it's not so much
01:03:03.220you know the economic cost of our gdp will fall x number of points as uh it's going to create
01:03:08.620enormous political chaos and you know voters in our populations will have the option of the
01:03:14.900pro-u parties that can restore stability that right now are really losing their legitimacy
01:03:19.940really losing their cause for existence uh in a scenario where you have economic ruination in
01:03:25.660many countries in Europe, you know, geopolitical shock, suddenly they're going to have a much
01:24:36.860People are going to the supermarket and they feel the sting of the inflation.
01:24:41.100It's a quite tough market out there as well.
01:24:42.900So looking at it from an economic perspective, just in terms of maintaining our gravitas as metapolitical operators,
01:24:52.160So do you think there would be an issue there that if such a thing would happen, economic chaos following an EU exit would discredit nationalist voices?
01:25:03.120Do you think that would be something to look out for?