AMERICAN CONSPIRACY： THE OCTOPUS MURDERS
Episode Stats
Summary
After the mysterious death of reporter Danny Casolaro in a West Virginia motel room in the early 1990s, a number of people began to point fingers at a group of eight men they believe are responsible for his death. They are the so-called Octopuss Murders, a group that is said to be responsible for the deaths of at least three other journalists.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Great America Show, and have we got a treat for you today.
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We're going to take on an issue, a documentary, and a period of history that I know for a fact
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You're going to find it in some ways entertaining as well because of two young documentary workers
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who have put together what I think is a very important piece of long-form journalism.
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And frankly, I will go so far as to say I found it greatly entertaining.
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And I spent a lot of time thinking back over a period of some, well, some 40 years in which
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this story has been alive and has been touched upon by various journalists, documentary makers,
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authors, and yet the mystery persists and the mystery has not been solved.
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They entitled their documentary, American Conspiracy, The Octopus Murders.
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And here is the trailer to go to that documentary.
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And we're going to show you this because we think it's a great way to premise what you're
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Reporter Danny Casalero was found dead over the weekend in a motel in Martinsburg, West Virginia.
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Local authorities quickly ruled his death a suicide.
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The book that Danny was writing, he starts looking into these powerful people and realizes
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These eight men, they're no longer government officials, but their tentacles can reach into
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Most of us were convinced that he had been hurt for him covering this story.
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If the federal government says, we don't know what you're talking about, it's beyond what
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These programs allegedly allowed the CIA to spy on the intelligence agencies that bought
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The two of them transferred in excess of $40 million.
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There was a wire running from around his neck to his ankles.
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There's just too many people dead in this case.
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This former NSA guy says, I don't know how you heard that name, but you can get killed just
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I told him not to talk to certain people, not to raise certain issues.
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If you think for a minute that you're going to go expose somebody, you're going to get
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And so our broadcast today, our broadcast today begins with the octopus murders and setting
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The two folks driving that documentary investigative journalist, Christian Hansen, joining us and
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And I want to start with, first and foremost, how you decided, how you came to know the mystery
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of Danny Casolaro and all that has unfolded since.
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I'll start off because I came to the story before Zachary did.
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I was looking into the Wackenhut Corporation in a research project I was doing into the private
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And in addition to privatized prisons, the Wackenhut Corporation had also been involved
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And one of them being a plan to form a joint venture with the Cabazon Band of Mission Indians
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in Indio, California, and where they would develop chemical and biological weapons and
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submachine guns and night vision goggles for militia groups and military groups in Central
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So I was pulling articles on this operation or planned operation.
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And, you know, Danny Casolaro had been looking into it in 1991, another journalist, and he
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And so I just sort of stepped in and just started, you know, looking around and reading about all
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these various things and quickly realized that there was, you know, a whole lot, even though
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the story was so old and even though it was so interesting and well covered, there was still
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so much that hadn't been fleshed out, um, or at least to my satisfaction.
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I ended up spending, you know, the next, you know, 12 years, um, working on this case.
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And in 2017, um, my childhood friend, a brilliant director, Zachary Trites joined me.
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And, um, we, we, with a trip that we took to pick up, uh, Michael Ricanasciuto, one of
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the characters you, you saw in that trailer, um, after he'd been in prison for 26 years.
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He'd been convicted for, um, uh, possession of precursors, uh, with intent to manufacture
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methamphetamine charges, uh, like that drug charges and man's in ends up in jail for 26
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years, uh, in part, uh, through his own volition at various points, at least it appears, uh, as
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the, as the story is told in your documentary, uh, as, as we watch what happened to Casolaro,
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we watch what happened to all of the people who got killed, excuse me, all of the people
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who got killed, uh, uh, relative to the Cabezon Indian reservation, uh, it's, it's near
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Indio, uh, California, uh, it's, it's a small whisper of a place, uh, how in the world did
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it take on such prominence in the early stages of your investigation?
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I, so the, how, how did Cabezon take on prominence for me in the early stages?
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Uh, it, I, I mean, it didn't necessarily, I, I mean, I actually kind of put Cabezon on the
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back burner that just sort of led me to Danny Casolaro.
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Um, but it was more, um, the early stages were kind of like, um, I focused more on the
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Insla case, uh, basically this documentary and, and the story that Danny was working on
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is a, um, sort of a interconnected web of different scandals from the 1980s.
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So it's sort of like you, you can choose any place on the board to start and different people
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that have found themselves working on this story.
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Lou, you worked on this story in 1990 and 1991.
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I bet you found a particular place on the board to enter into the story.
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Um, for me, it was, it just happened to be Wackenhut, um, for another journalist that we
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interview, it just happened to be, um, the drugs in Northern California.
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I mean, you can just, you can get into it from any, any, which way, because it's a, because
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it's a web, you know, uh, it's like sort of like the board game, sorry, or something.
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You just start at a place and then you, you know, you go around the circle.
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It's a circle, uh, without any question whatsoever.
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And, uh, it is, as we look at it over the course of retrospectively and, and 40 years is
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a serious retrospection, uh, it is, uh, impossible for me to comprehend how Bill Hamilton, the head
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of Inslaw, the software company that, uh, that is at the center of this, has declined,
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apparently, to talk with you guys, uh, has declined to talk with so many, when in point
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of fact, the Justice Department, he accused them of stealing promise software that became
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the, if you will, the signature, uh, for the, the octopus murders, the, uh, raw power, uh,
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uh, confrontation in Washington, D.C., between the Department of Justice, uh, between promise,
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uh, and, uh, and the relationship to the Reagan administration, everything from the, uh, October
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surprise, uh, to, to what in the world, uh, were the relationships among the CIA, the intelligence
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community, NSA, Bill Hamilton himself, with their relationship to the NSA, I mean, it explodes
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quickly into this canvas of conspiracy and, uh, outrageous, uh, outrageous complexity.
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He, he, Bill Hamilton and I, um, we talked many times for many years.
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He was one of my first, uh, sources and he was an amazing first source to have because
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he is the expert on all things in Slott, obviously.
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Um, it wasn't until we wanted to start making a film, I was initially writing a book.
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Then when Zachary joined me and we started to, uh, make this re the research that I was doing
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for a book, we started to turn it into a documentary series.
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It was then for some reason, still unknown to us that Bill Hamilton declined to, um, talk
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Um, he, uh, the Casolaro family, you know, his, their brother died, uh, working on helping
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I don't know why he didn't want to do it, but we can't make anyone go on camera that
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And one understands the level of intimidation that he may feel from any number of quarters,
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whether it be the department of justice, whether it be the intelligence community, whether
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it be whatever agreement, uh, is a, uh, in the shadows with the justice department, there
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may have been a settlement of which we know nothing, but it also reintroduces the other
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A fellow who worked for the CIA for seven years himself, a guy by the name of Bill Barr,
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who became attorney general under the current, uh, the current, uh, uh, Trump, uh, regime,
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uh, some, what, 30 years later, uh, he playing a role, his own father, Bill Barr, his father
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Bill Barr is the guy who, uh, some allege covered up the murder of Jeffrey Epstein, uh,
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Uh, it's, you can't find a way in the world, uh, to construct this as fiction because the,
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the reality of these relationships over the course of years, uh, just are implausible.
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And every one of them true, uh, Bill Barr, by the way, officiating for the department
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of justice in an investigation of its role with ends law, my gosh, he's the guy who decided
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He made the decision in behalf of the department of justice to find for the department of justice.
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Does that sound familiar to anyone in this day and age in which we live your thoughts,
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Um, the, the role that, that Bill Barr, we don't get into it cause our timeline ends
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with the death of Danny Casolaro and Bill Barr picked up, um, after Danny Casolaro's death
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by appointing, uh, this, uh, judge from Chicago to review the evidence in, you know, in Slott's
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Um, but no, but, uh, you know, after the show came out, a reporter that I used to work
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with at the New York times got in touch with me, he had been looking into the, uh, Jeffrey
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Epstein case and that led him to promise and led him to Bill Hamilton, you know, it's just
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It is an American conspiracy as you entitled it.
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We are talking with the director, Zachary Trites and the Christian Hanson, uh, the author
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of, uh, uh, uh, this fabulous, uh, web of intrigue, uh, that we all participate in.
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We're coming right back with them as we explore further the, the octopus murders and American
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We're talking with investigative journalist Christian Hansen and film director, his childhood
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friend, as well as his director, Zachary Trites.
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And I want to, Zachary, I want to turn to you first of all as a director.
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How compelling was this idea when Christian said to you, I've been working on this for a
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while, let's say a decade and, uh, and maybe we should do something with us.
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I mean, it really began because Christian is just a friend of mine and I, I come from more
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of like the fictional, um, you know, independent film world.
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And he was just telling me about Danny Casolaro and this story at Cabazon and all, all of these
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octopus related things, just as a, as a friend, basically.
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Um, and I, maybe I'm sort of naturally a skeptic a little bit, um, and naturally wary of things
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And so I was really just a sounding board for him saying, what are you doing?
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You know, like, I don't understand what you're talking about.
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Um, and, and it, and it really, for me, I mean, I, I came into it, I would not have had anything
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If it wasn't for Christian, I came into it as his friend and really originally worried
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Cause it seemed like it was an all encompassing kind of story and, and his, his family, his
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sisters and our friends, we were all kind of like, what is Christian doing?
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Cause he's spending, you gotta, you gotta understand this kind of effort that decoding something
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I mean, he would be up for literally like a couple of days at a time going through PDFs.
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He's downloaded off the internet or the files that he found that are, uh, you know, Danny's
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And then he started telling me about the people he was reaching out to, um, who were involved
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And then I was worried, you know, on the other side, it's like some of these people seemed
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Um, there were a lot of deaths, uh, around people that Danny Castellaro was talking to
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And now Christian's reaching out to these people, you know, it just didn't seem like a great
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Um, so then, um, by the way, I want to compliment.
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I think that you captured that, uh, in Christian, uh, in your documentary, uh, it, cinematically,
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uh, you can see the wear on his face, uh, and, uh, your concern.
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And I, I think if I may put it this way, that skepticism you referred to was an interesting
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cinematic, uh, uh, uh, touchstone too, because it really needed to be there, uh, as it, as the
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Uh, and yet, despite all of that, the story carries us all through, uh, to be, to the
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edge of the web, to the, uh, to the darkest parts of the conspiracy.
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Um, but I think that, I think that what the thing is, is that ultimately when you start
00:19:50.960
talking about this, even if you're a skeptic, there's just certain little things that get
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you hooked on being like, well, there's something there.
00:20:00.980
And the process that we go through in the four episodes of this documentary series is kind
00:20:07.140
of going from one little, if we're, you know, say we're climbing this mountain, it's like
00:20:14.640
And then I start climbing and then we're together, we're hooked in together and our kind of fates
00:20:19.660
are intertwined as we're going up this thing, you know, maybe one falls off the cliff and
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I mean, not to extend the metaphor too far, but, but it really does kind of get, grab onto
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And, um, and it's hard to put down certain things that, that Christian uncovered.
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And then we uncovered together and just say, ah, it's just a conspiracy.
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You know, it's, it's difficult, um, one of the main characters who I mentioned earlier,
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who had been in prison, Michael Ricanaschudo, we basically, we had a really long drive from,
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um, from Lompoc, California, Lompoc, California to Temecula.
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And we got stuck in traffic, but we, we wanted to, we wanted to spend as much time with Michael
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And we, Zach was sitting in the front seat and I was sitting in the beside him in the back
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And at the end of that day, we were kind of like, yeah, right.
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You know, and especially Zach, I mean, I always had a little bit more familiarity with this
00:21:22.720
stuff, but still there was a lot, it wasn't rehashed.
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There was a lot of new stuff that we talked about on this, on this drive.
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And then, you know, we basically get back to New York and, and transcribe this hours long
00:21:36.680
We just start going line by line, claim by claim to debunk the stuff that we thought was,
00:21:44.680
And there was bull, but it was the really mundane things that you wouldn't even think to try
00:21:51.800
to fact check that were not, did it not turned out to not be, we couldn't prove, but then
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it was the absurd wild claims about a serial killer, for instance, that was his minder in
00:22:06.680
San Francisco that turned out to be, Oh, deadly true.
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You know, the FBI was running around, uh, as a, as a, essentially a, a hit man.
00:22:21.040
And also just a guy who enjoys killing people and robbing them and raping women, um, as an
00:22:28.160
informant for the FBI, you know, it just sounded to me, it sounded like paranoid delusion because
00:22:36.420
I'm sorry, but a lot of that turned out to be true.
00:22:39.560
And that was Michael's story and, and, and I have to hand it to him that there were the
00:22:49.100
And of course the FBI and the department of justice later in the future, come in and right
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all wrongs, apologize to the American public for leaving a hit man and informant, a human,
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uh, confidential source, uh, out there, uh, destroying lives and wreaking havoc and raping
00:23:15.060
Uh, and the fact is, it's a part of the mystery that remains with us.
00:23:18.240
Uh, and that is how in the world could this all have happened?
00:23:22.900
Uh, Rukanasudo, as you talk about that trip, uh, that, uh, drive, uh, he ends up back in
00:23:29.140
prison in three days because he doesn't talk to his probation officer.
00:23:35.740
He, he, he didn't, he didn't show up for his, um, probation hearing, which, you know,
00:23:41.340
he had been let out in California and he was supposed to go up to Washington state, which
00:23:46.340
Um, and what he claimed to us was that he was just, um, I was afraid to go up there, um,
00:23:54.680
that Washington state had people who were out to get him.
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Um, which again, uh, to me, I just normally route that, write that off as paranoid delusion.
00:24:05.700
But if you look at Michael's life and you look deeper into it and the number of people
00:24:10.880
who have been hurt around him, it's hard to write off all of the threats that he's talking
00:24:17.120
I don't necessarily believe all of them, but you can understand how somebody who's gone
00:24:21.020
through the life that he has, how, uh, scared your everyday existence might be.
00:24:29.340
He found his partner, um, murdered in a, in a horrible, like Yakuza, uh, Sicilian mafia
00:24:37.780
style of, uh, tying someone up so that their, um, the weight of their legs slowly strangles
00:24:44.960
them, um, by their neck, you know, it's like a hog tie.
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Um, you know, and he found his partner's body like that.
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And that's a story that has been barely reported that Zachary and I kind of broke open in the
00:25:00.500
And we don't even make a big deal about the fact that nobody really knew anything about
00:25:05.380
And we lay out a really interesting, compelling scenario of why it happened and how and by whom.
00:25:11.140
Um, and James Muraska, you know, one of the early victims in this with a wire around his
00:25:18.500
throat, as you say, uh, just to, just to clear Paul, Paul Muraska, Paul, I'm sorry.
00:25:25.640
Paul, uh, uh, he, his death just goes on a, on unnoticed it for the most part.
00:25:34.500
There's just no consequence in any of this over a very long period of time.
00:25:39.300
At least that, uh, that I can detect or, or, and I'm wondering, did you find the greater
00:25:45.400
Because I found almost none for all that were completely and utterly crimes, uh, and murderous
00:25:54.360
I think the Paul Muraska case, it's, it's, it's only about 20 minutes of our movie that
00:26:00.200
Um, but I think it's the most fascinating in some respects window into this.
00:26:04.940
And, and it almost didn't make the movie because there's, it's so complicated and there
00:26:09.040
was, there's almost nothing publicly available about the Paul Muraska case.
00:26:12.720
Here's a guy who's, uh, on paper or, you know, reportedly a drug sort of intermediary,
00:26:19.820
intermediary, uh, not necessarily a manufacturer, but, uh, um, what wholesaler, a wholesaler of
00:26:26.500
drugs, uh, cocaine, mostly in the early eighties.
00:26:30.460
And, um, he dies after, like Christian said, being hogtied and slowly strangled to death.
00:26:39.500
Um, and there's only one article that comes out at that time.
00:26:44.380
And then I think there's maybe an article that comes out years later, right?
00:26:48.680
I mean, there was almost no news coverage of his death.
00:26:50.920
And I think that, that, you know, I imagine 19, early 1980s, San Francisco, a drug dealer
00:26:56.600
dies and it's just like, well, yeah, it kind of goes through, passes through the, the, uh,
00:27:02.860
news, the sieve and doesn't catch much attention, but it actually is a prism into the octopus
00:27:09.500
that we describe in this, this essentially this West coast side of the octopus, which, which
00:27:15.240
involves to my mind, a group of brilliant psychopaths who were running around the West coast, committing
00:27:23.920
various crimes, um, and doing that in coordination and, or with the help, or at least the looking
00:27:33.460
away of the federal government, um, specifically in this case, uh, federal law enforcement agencies,
00:27:43.360
So it's fascinating for me just to like go in there and be like, wow, nobody knows about
00:27:54.300
You hear these people, these people that Zach described as, uh, you know, what, what do you
00:28:00.320
Brilliant sociopaths or whatever he said, we have them on tape.
00:28:03.760
You know, people have asked, are these AI generated?
00:28:08.460
No, these are the actual characters from this crazy story talking about, you know, what they
00:28:14.900
were up to, um, you know, and no, you know, kind of non law enforcement people that had heard
00:28:19.260
this, uh, these planning it to law enforcement, um, you know, their side of a story.
00:28:24.840
And it's not like what they're saying is necessarily true.
00:28:30.100
Uh, they're using obfuscation, but you get to see how they rationalize this series of crimes
00:28:37.320
that they're in the middle of committing essentially.
00:28:40.780
I love the, uh, the, uh, the San Francisco detective who says, well, once the federal
00:28:46.520
government tells you, they don't know what you're talking about, there's really not much
00:28:54.080
Uh, and that's what happened in case after case after case along the way over the years.
00:28:58.700
Uh, but it's interesting that this octopus, uh, involves some of the biggest names in the
00:29:06.000
Reagan administration, uh, in the Bush administration, uh, and in fact, the national security agency,
00:29:14.080
the FBI, the department of justice, uh, a prominent role.
00:29:17.940
And for the first time we're seeing, uh, through your documentary, the reality of crime, criminals,
00:29:26.760
organized criminals, uh, whether it be the drug trade or where it may be something more,
00:29:31.040
in fact, uh, sinister, if you can imagine, uh, it is the theft of, uh, software intellectual
00:29:38.860
property for a purpose that is, uh, in the national interest because apparently the FBI, the CIA,
00:29:45.700
any number of agencies, including the NSA, want to, uh, inculcate, uh, that software into the
00:29:54.300
systems, the, uh, the digital systems of our both friends and enemies around the world.
00:30:00.320
I mean, that's the prospect that we're, we're looking at here.
00:30:03.980
I want to take that up with you as we continue with these two brilliant documentarians, investigative
00:30:10.140
journalist, Christian Hanson, and film director, Zachary Trites.
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00:31:21.060
We're talking with the octopus murders chroniclers and creators of a magnificent documentary.
00:31:28.480
I want to take one moment here to urge you to see American Conspiracy, The Octopus Murders
00:31:37.660
I've been recommending it to you for two weeks.
00:31:41.260
Now we have the producers, the director, the author, investigative journalist, Christian
00:31:52.080
They're the folks who brought this documentary to life, and it's quite a span of life, some
00:32:04.800
It is about the ugly forces that shape this world, whether we like it or not, or at least
00:32:10.520
parts of our world, and the mysteries that are yet to be solved.
00:32:17.640
And I just want to say thanks again to both of you and my compliments again to both of
00:32:23.220
What a remarkable documentary you've created, a series, a four-part series that is, I recommend
00:32:32.800
So let's start with some of the characters in this over the years, because it's not like
00:32:41.980
It simply extends the mystery in point of fact.
00:32:45.020
I say simply extends it, because there is so much more we want to know, and we must
00:32:50.220
know, and we know that people have been saying that for 40 years, and still, there are blocks
00:32:57.220
There are conflicts and contradictions and confrontations, whether it be government agencies,
00:33:02.740
whether it be criminal hitmen out there working for which syndicate we don't know, or which
00:33:16.040
Ronald Reagan, his administration, the issue of Promise, the software for the Department of
00:33:22.780
attorneys to share information and bring together huge files, and to really own them, and to use
00:33:32.040
them in the, of course, the interest of justice.
00:33:34.200
And to have it stolen from the small software company that created Inslaw is just stunning.
00:33:47.320
The way that I, I mean, it's really hard to, to say definitively in the absence of A, receipts,
00:33:59.500
and B, you know, people that were actually involved in this conspiracy to steal and distribute
00:34:15.560
And we know, you know, that, you know, with Snowden coming out in like 2013, that the,
00:34:25.120
And it, it, when that story broke, um, it was sort of like, oh, well, this is just happening,
00:34:34.800
And, and it would seem that the, um, promise software could be a likely, a very logical
00:34:41.920
starting point for the, um, global data surveillance projects that the, um, U S intelligence community,
00:34:53.240
Um, and I think it could very likely have started with, with promise.
00:34:58.900
We just, Zachary and I don't have any receipts, uh, we don't have any hard, you know, we've
00:35:05.020
got allegations, we've got corroboration, but, um, nothing, um, nothing, uh, really solid
00:35:14.240
Well, I mean, we, we have, there's court files from various investigators and, and, and, you
00:35:21.400
know, the, the federal court said that the justice department had stolen the software through
00:35:31.960
I'm just saying that there's, there's, there's all kinds of receipts to various parts, but
00:35:36.080
it's like, once you get into the insula affair and the promise software, it becomes a true
00:35:41.420
hall of mirrors where finding out what, you know, the definitive objective reality of what
00:35:48.240
is going on with this piece of software, the more that we looked at it, the harder it
00:35:53.960
was to understand, if that makes sense, you know, because we usually make the, we make
00:36:01.380
the opposite, the opposite bargain, uh, as investigators, as journalists, uh, we, we expect
00:36:08.980
the more we exert ourselves to understand, to comprehend, to build evidence that we will
00:36:14.740
understand, uh, infinitely more, uh, not just more, uh, and in this case, like so many other
00:36:23.140
instances, uh, over years of, uh, inquiry into the, the dark, uh, uh, the, the darkest shadows
00:36:31.000
of the intelligence community, uh, you know, you know, life isn't easily explained always,
00:36:36.500
uh, but the, the great thing about, and I think the magic that you guys have put together
00:36:42.280
here is you're not in a court of law, you're, you're not, uh, necessarily, uh, interested
00:36:49.920
in just, uh, uh, a, a, a brush aside, uh, of, uh, of, uh, you know, circumstance over here
00:36:57.980
where you're talking about Mike, uh, Ricanasciuto, uh, and his affiliations and his role in all
00:37:03.940
of this, because he should be at the very least, uh, at the very most in most people's minds,
00:37:09.840
I would think, uh, something of a bit player, it turns out he is one heck of a fascinating
00:37:15.660
guy and you can, and, and you can ignore him at your peril quite literally.
00:37:21.100
I think that that's, I think that's really important to touch on is, is what we tried to
00:37:26.340
And I think this is one of the most effective parts and what I think makes the documentary
00:37:30.620
somewhat unique in this, in this area is that we took an extremely subjective viewpoint,
00:37:36.220
which is, this is my, essentially my view of Christian's view of Danny's Danny Casalero's
00:37:45.120
And that free, this frees us up to experience what it's like to go into this kind of story
00:37:51.140
and meet people who maybe are not telling you the truth and grapple with that in, in the,
00:38:00.600
Um, and not, and it's, I guess it's to say, just because somebody is telling you, not telling
00:38:06.080
you the truth doesn't mean you should ignore what they're saying.
00:38:09.400
Um, is, is one of the lessons to this story because the obfuscation, the, um, the way that
00:38:15.640
these criminal and intelligence operations that we think we brushed up against in telling
00:38:20.740
this story, that's part of the, that's part of the game here.
00:38:26.580
And if you're not going to, if you just dismiss something because it sounds kooky or you don't
00:38:31.480
have receipts on it, you're going to, and I think quite purposefully from an intelligence
00:38:36.540
or criminal perspective, you're going to ignore it.
00:38:40.100
And that's what we gave ourselves the license to, to do, which is go out on all these limbs.
00:38:48.420
Uh, he was the owner of the financial news network.
00:38:51.220
He was a, uh, secretary of the, uh, California state, uh, health department, uh, under, uh,
00:39:00.320
governor Ronald Reagan, uh, and then subsequently follows him to Washington DC and the various
00:39:07.480
There's a fascinating character at the, uh, it, uh, I would call it the nexus of all this,
00:39:13.280
whether we're talking about the October surprise, whether we're talking about, uh, various other
00:39:23.860
I think Christian knows a lot more about this than I do, but he is just to set him up even
00:39:28.600
Like he was really Danny Casolaro, the investigative journalist and Bill Hamilton, the owner of
00:39:33.680
the software company, Earl Bryant kind of represented the original boogeyman for them.
00:39:38.860
I think, you know, that he was somehow a linchpin in this software being stolen and this vendetta
00:39:46.000
that was being carried out, um, against promise, uh, and Bill Hamilton's company, um, by the
00:39:53.220
So he, and, and he's this kind of brilliant physician by trade who became, like you said,
00:40:01.900
uh, integral part of Ronald Reagan's, um, kind of inner circle.
00:40:07.580
What do you want to go into kind of like the, the allegation is that, um, his company, um,
00:40:14.760
Hadron, um, had, uh, attempted to, um, when, when in slot in slot basically had, um, this
00:40:24.320
contract dispute with the, this bizarre contract dispute with the department of justice and they
00:40:28.900
were, um, hemorrhaging funds, you know, operations costs because justice department wasn't paying
00:40:34.160
their, their bills due to the contract dispute and, um, they were facing bankruptcy.
00:40:40.280
And when they were at that point, Earl Bryant, uh, one of the president of his company kind of
00:40:46.180
swooped in and said, Hey, we'll take this software off your hands for, for some money, you know,
00:40:50.580
this intellectual property and bills like, no, we're going to figure this out.
00:41:02.560
And the guy said, you know, we have ways of making you sell.
00:41:06.480
Um, then the justice department, then the company went bankrupt.
00:41:10.360
And due to this very confusing, um, negotiate negotiating tactic, um, in slot was forced to
00:41:18.960
give their source code to their software to the justice department as sort of like a collateral.
00:41:23.880
Um, and I think that is where, um, the problem started as far as the, um, modification, the
00:41:31.260
illegal modification of the software and the, uh, you know, the distribution, the global
00:41:37.020
Um, and, and basically Earl Bryant is said to have been, um, part, there were multiple channels.
00:41:44.100
There was an Israeli channel that, um, Robert Maxwell, a very similar British sort of counterpart
00:41:50.420
to Earl Bryant is said to have been kind of the, uh, uh, distribution, the head of the
00:41:57.320
distribution network of the promise software for Israel.
00:42:00.320
And then where the U S it was said to have been Earl Bryant, um, you know, uh, as like
00:42:05.680
this third party just distributing the software, um, with a secret backdoor in it, you know,
00:42:11.680
um, also just to make things, it's, it's incredible that he has rewarded this, this privilege, uh,
00:42:20.500
by the Reagan administration for his work in helping the Reagan, uh, campaign negotiate
00:42:26.180
with the Iranians to delay the hostages until after the 1980, uh, presidential election.
00:42:35.580
And that's Michael Reconistruto's account of what happened, but Lou, were you, did you
00:42:40.840
know Earl Bryant, um, when in DC, how did you know?
00:42:45.700
Well, I knew him because he was the chairman of a company called the financial news network,
00:42:50.500
uh, that, uh, and I, at that time I worked for a Ted Turner, we were going to buy that
00:42:57.140
company, uh, uh, at, at various points and, and Ted was dealing with the issue.
00:43:04.180
Uh, I was not involved in the negotiation for the property, uh, but I did know Earl
00:43:09.740
I did know Paul Steinle, the guy who was the head of FNN over the years.
00:43:15.420
Uh, he was a character to say the very least, uh, the stories were, uh, and there were stories
00:43:21.620
that surrounded him constantly, uh, that he was, uh, a Vietnam war hero.
00:43:26.520
That he worked for the CIA, uh, that, I mean, the legend was large, I'll put it that way.
00:43:33.580
And the shadows were deep, uh, but I, he was a character without question, but.
00:43:39.540
Did he ever admit anything to you off the record?
00:43:45.640
You know, wouldn't that be something if I were to share something off the record all
00:43:50.140
Uh, but the truth is try as I may, I didn't get him, uh, to, to confess to a thing, uh,
00:43:57.860
nor did, you know, we have a relationship in which that would have even been, uh, thinkable.
00:44:03.280
Interestingly, just Robert, I just want to throw out this is like, we don't even go into this
00:44:08.000
in the documentary, but two quick, two quick points that we, you know, would be fun to add
00:44:12.540
into the public record is, um, financial news network, which was, uh, Danny's best friend
00:44:18.740
and clinic who we interview actually worked for financial news network and put Danny, the
00:44:25.040
journalist was desperate to talk to Earl Bryan and she put them, uh, she brought Danny to
00:44:35.300
And, you know, or she was like, Danny, don't embarrass me in front of, you know, this is
00:44:40.120
She had apparently no real relationship with him.
00:44:42.680
She was just like, don't embarrass me and get me fired here.
00:44:45.420
Um, but they played this volleyball game, Danny and, um, and Earl Bryan and Earl Bryan
00:44:50.420
and just completely schooled Danny and volleyball just was, even though he was a big, he was,
00:44:59.420
Uh, he also, I mean, it was a, uh, you know, basically a national class.
00:45:05.300
Uh, tennis player and apparently had been in, uh, uh, uh, in Vietnam, uh, you know, very
00:45:17.960
And then, and then around the time that Danny's writing this, um, in 1991, you know, he also
00:45:25.020
owned UPI, which is the big competitor to the associated press, United Press International
00:45:30.940
and financial news network and a host of other companies.
00:45:33.860
One of which obviously was competing for contracts, like software contracts, like the, like the
00:45:40.440
He also, they also did work with the C his companies did work with the CIA.
00:45:44.200
They did work on nuclear submarines, Navy customs, all kinds of stuff.
00:45:49.120
I mean, it goes deep, but interestingly, like so many people in our story, he goes to jail,
00:45:56.540
goes to, was arrested right after, well, I mean, he was arrested, um, 96, but his, his
00:46:06.380
Um, and he lost control of FNN, FNN became CNBC.
00:46:11.880
Um, and he was, um, he was in prison for securities fraud, essentially, uh, financial crimes.
00:46:21.300
And, uh, to go back to Robert Maxwell, who I also knew, he was also a, a person with a,
00:46:30.860
an illustrious background, but not always illuminated.
00:46:34.360
Uh, it was, uh, he was with, in my judgment without question, Masson, he was, uh, without
00:46:42.320
question, uh, working, uh, uh, diligently in their behalf.
00:46:46.940
Uh, he also then, of course, had relationships within, uh, the U.S.
00:46:54.740
Uh, he was a perfect asset, uh, for them at that point.
00:46:58.640
Uh, and he was, as the saying goes, living large, taking over, I believe it was the daily
00:47:04.000
news at one point, uh, expanding his, uh, empire, his newspaper empire across Europe and
00:47:12.700
But to the point, uh, he had a role in much of this.
00:47:17.320
And I really think that what, uh, to get to the, again, to the incipient point here, uh,
00:47:26.820
I, we're talking about for the first time, the American media, whether it's you guys, whether
00:47:33.060
it's me and a handful of folks over the course of years, uh, we were seeing the early representation
00:47:40.020
of the, uh, emergence of the surveillance state through promise software, through the conflict
00:47:47.880
and the arrogance of the government to simply say to Bill Hamilton, go to hell.
00:47:52.880
Uh, we want this, we're taking it and we'll do it, whatever is necessary to make it happen.
00:47:59.660
I think that it is also very much, I think you can hear the echoes of the octopus murders,
00:48:06.320
uh, and the American conspiracy in every day as a newspaper one way or the other, uh, nearly
00:48:16.560
Uh, we're watching a government emerged with, uh, uh, corporate interest, uh, and, uh, and
00:48:24.640
infiltrating our, our civil life in this country that, uh, I think that your documentary, uh,
00:48:31.620
presents a, just a startling and extraordinary window into, uh, with, uh, with historical context
00:48:42.360
Guys, I want to give you the last word here as we, uh, as we wrap up.
00:48:47.140
And again, just thank you so much for American conspiracy, uh, the octopus murders, uh, if we
00:48:57.860
Um, yeah, I mean, I think that it's important issues that we bring up to grapple with.
00:49:02.420
I mean, we really tried to stay focused on telling our story and not expanding it out beyond
00:49:10.100
It's just, we're really focused on what happened in this specific period of time with what Danny
00:49:16.260
And I would, uh, maybe, I don't mean to, you know, challenge your viewers.
00:49:21.700
I don't want to presume anything about anything, but it's an interesting story.
00:49:24.100
Um, for people to grapple with, especially when they think about, this is essentially
00:49:31.900
I'm not saying that there's no scandals during, you know, democratic or Republican
00:49:35.540
administrations, but this specific one is about, if you want to look at its core, I would
00:49:41.160
say is about what happens when military intelligence, military projects and things like that are privatized.
00:49:50.620
It's about selling off, um, contracts and things like that to the private sector and, um, the
00:49:58.620
dangers of what happens when intelligence operatives, um, and these people go into the, into this
00:50:10.160
This, this kind of like, um, um, this meshy gray zone.
00:50:15.740
That's what a lot of the scandals that Danny was looking into are about.
00:50:18.220
And so it's, it's, you know, wherever you're coming from, uh, I think it challenges your
00:50:23.360
notions of what is going on within our government and around our government that, um, would be
00:50:30.820
better served if we all knew what was going on rather than keeping it under the, uh, sort
00:50:35.920
of national security umbrella where nobody's allowed to see what the heck is really going
00:50:41.380
Robert, Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood movie star with a great smile and he was very charismatic
00:50:46.840
and, and it's easy to look back on the past and just see that.
00:50:50.920
But, um, you look no further than his director of the CIA, William Casey, who is as wily as
00:50:58.060
they come and, uh, got a lot, it's got a lot done.
00:51:06.340
Yeah, it's, it's historically, this, uh, that period of, uh, well, from, in my opinion, from
00:51:14.880
1980 forward, which would encompass also, of course, the, you know, the October surprise,
00:51:20.500
uh, to, to 90 to 88, uh, that's a period of which we watched the Soviet Union fall.
00:51:29.720
Uh, it collapsed and it collapsed not of just its own weight, uh, but, uh, with extraordinarily
00:51:36.020
brilliant strategies on the part of the United States, uh, diplomatic war, the, uh, the White
00:51:42.220
House, uh, led by the White House throughout, uh, and the intelligence agencies, uh, that,
00:51:48.560
uh, tore them asunder, uh, in totalitarianism, uh, did then collapse.
00:51:54.060
And unfortunately, also the history tells us, uh, the surveillance state did not recede,
00:52:02.160
It actually expanded, uh, to the point that we're in the, I think the national crisis right
00:52:08.100
You know, and the, the brilliant work they did in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen, you know,
00:52:15.360
these things all have repercussions, um, you know, deadly, horrible repercussions, but
00:52:23.320
I'm not, it's a whole, it's why that was so necessary.
00:52:27.140
Uh, but the point being that what is never necessary in my opinion is to in any way constrict
00:52:35.900
the rights of American citizens to those bill of rights, uh, it's being done daily, uh, it
00:52:41.020
is being done, uh, it's being carried out energetically by the surveillance state, uh,
00:52:45.840
and, uh, and I think as, again, uh, we, we're deeply in your debt for providing a, a, uh,
00:52:52.460
a window into a world that needs to be, uh, uh, illuminated further.
00:53:05.520
There's a lot, there's a lot to cover and, and, you know, even our three and a half hour
00:53:09.760
documentary, we just feel like we scratched the surface of this thing.
00:53:12.800
Well, you know, I, I hope, you know, that scratching the surface is great fun because
00:53:17.840
that means that there is great material awaiting us all, uh, from here.
00:53:21.800
Uh, I, I truly believe, uh, that, uh, the country is so well-served by, uh, your talents
00:53:32.020
And I'd love to talk to you about conclusive things, but I don't want to give in, give away
00:53:36.320
storylines and, uh, uh, so, uh, we'll take that up at a more appropriate point.
00:53:42.800
I doubt, uh, you know, after, uh, you know, another 5 million people watch the documentary.
00:53:57.640
Terrific, uh, producers of the new important documentary, American Conspiracy, The Octopus
00:54:07.280
Uh, it's, it's a remarkable window, uh, into the relationship between government, the intelligence
00:54:12.980
communities, and of course, organized crime and what has become the surveillance state
00:54:19.720
Uh, for everyone who joined us, I want to say thanks as well.
00:54:25.800
The full video, by the way, is available on our Rumble channel.
00:54:29.800
That's, uh, check out, uh, rumble.com, that's slash Lou Dobbs, rumble.com slash Lou Dobbs.
00:54:39.920
Uh, and you can watch the video of today's interview.
00:54:42.760
Uh, I think you'll, uh, you'll find it, uh, well, I think entertaining and informative.
00:54:49.860
We'll see you here tomorrow for the great America show.