The Great America Show - AMERICAN CONSPIRACY： THE OCTOPUS MURDERS

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00:00:38.580 Welcome to The Great America Show, and have we got a treat for you today.

00:00:42.720 We're going to take on an issue, a documentary, and a period of history that I know for a fact

00:00:52.960 you're going to find fascinating, troubling.

00:00:55.840 You're going to find it in some ways entertaining as well because of two young documentary workers

00:01:02.740 who have put together what I think is a very important piece of long-form journalism.

00:01:09.980 And frankly, I will go so far as to say I found it greatly entertaining.

00:01:14.840 And I spent a lot of time thinking back over a period of some, well, some 40 years in which

00:01:22.560 this story has been alive and has been touched upon by various journalists, documentary makers,

00:01:28.900 authors, and yet the mystery persists and the mystery has not been solved.

00:01:34.820 The mystery is straightforwardly a conspiracy.

00:01:38.680 They entitled their documentary, American Conspiracy, The Octopus Murders.

00:01:45.240 And here is the trailer to go to that documentary.

00:01:49.800 And we're going to show you this because we think it's a great way to premise what you're

00:01:56.160 about to see and to hear.

00:01:59.020 Here we go.

00:02:00.400 Reporter Danny Casalero was found dead over the weekend in a motel in Martinsburg, West Virginia.

00:02:05.620 Local authorities quickly ruled his death a suicide.

00:02:09.820 It just didn't, it didn't sit right.

00:02:12.520 In my mind, I'm thinking they killed him.

00:02:22.020 The book that Danny was writing, he starts looking into these powerful people and realizes

00:02:30.300 there's something much bigger going on.

00:02:31.940 These eight men, they're no longer government officials, but their tentacles can reach into

00:02:39.500 any part of government in almost any country.

00:02:42.460 I've come to call this group The Octopus.

00:02:45.740 Most of us were convinced that he had been hurt for him covering this story.

00:02:50.020 If the federal government says, we don't know what you're talking about, it's beyond what

00:02:54.360 a couple of local detectives can do.

00:02:56.740 It all started with the software promise.

00:02:59.820 These programs allegedly allowed the CIA to spy on the intelligence agencies that bought

00:03:06.100 it.

00:03:06.600 The two of them transferred in excess of $40 million.

00:03:10.180 This money was used to buy off.

00:03:15.220 It was a disturbing conspiracy.

00:03:19.660 A lot of people that were on there are dead.

00:03:22.880 All three of them had been shot in the head.

00:03:25.400 We knew who was involved.

00:03:26.980 No one was ever brought to justice.

00:03:30.140 We found the body.

00:03:31.600 There was a wire running from around his neck to his ankles.

00:03:37.440 There's just too many people dead in this case.

00:03:41.880 This former NSA guy says, I don't know how you heard that name, but you can get killed just

00:03:47.180 knowing that name.

00:03:48.960 Can you turn the camera off?

00:03:51.860 I told him not to talk to certain people, not to raise certain issues.

00:03:59.180 Danny became obsessed with this story.

00:04:02.340 You have the same curiosity that Danny had.

00:04:06.060 If you think for a minute that you're going to go expose somebody, you're going to get

00:04:13.340 yourself killed. 0.84

00:04:14.380 And so our broadcast today, our broadcast today begins with the octopus murders and setting

00:04:28.360 the stage for it all.

00:04:29.800 The two folks driving that documentary investigative journalist, Christian Hansen, joining us and

00:04:36.120 film director, Zachary Trites.

00:04:38.360 Gentlemen, great to have you with us.

00:04:39.860 What a great, great documentary.

00:04:43.880 And I want to start with, first and foremost, how you decided, how you came to know the mystery

00:04:51.740 of Danny Casolaro and all that has unfolded since.

00:04:56.840 Where did this begin?

00:04:58.140 What was the incipient point?

00:05:00.160 Thanks.

00:05:00.680 Thanks, Lou.

00:05:01.220 I'll start off because I came to the story before Zachary did.

00:05:05.980 I was looking into the Wackenhut Corporation in a research project I was doing into the private

00:05:12.800 prison industry.

00:05:14.700 And in addition to privatized prisons, the Wackenhut Corporation had also been involved

00:05:20.120 in various security projects around the world.

00:05:26.600 And one of them being a plan to form a joint venture with the Cabazon Band of Mission Indians

00:05:33.340 in Indio, California, and where they would develop chemical and biological weapons and 0.91

00:05:41.740 submachine guns and night vision goggles for militia groups and military groups in Central

00:05:49.840 America.

00:05:51.520 Danny Casolaro.

00:05:52.060 So I was pulling articles on this operation or planned operation.

00:05:56.160 And, you know, Danny Casolaro had been looking into it in 1991, another journalist, and he

00:06:02.940 died.

00:06:04.420 And so then I had never heard of him.

00:06:06.480 I'd never heard of any of this.

00:06:07.540 And so I just sort of stepped in and just started, you know, looking around and reading about all

00:06:12.500 these various things and quickly realized that there was, you know, a whole lot, even though

00:06:20.160 the story was so old and even though it was so interesting and well covered, there was still

00:06:25.460 so much that hadn't been fleshed out, um, or at least to my satisfaction.

00:06:30.700 So I ended up, that was in 2012.

00:06:33.980 I ended up spending, you know, the next, you know, 12 years, um, working on this case.

00:06:39.820 And in 2017, um, my childhood friend, a brilliant director, Zachary Trites joined me.

00:06:47.440 And, um, we, we, with a trip that we took to pick up, uh, Michael Ricanasciuto, one of

00:06:54.060 the characters you, you saw in that trailer, um, after he'd been in prison for 26 years.

00:07:00.240 26 years.

00:07:01.440 And what was the charge?

00:07:02.820 What, why was he in prison for 26 years?

00:07:05.720 Michael Ricanasciuto.

00:07:07.080 He had, um, gone to prison.

00:07:09.840 He'd been convicted for, um, uh, possession of precursors, uh, with intent to manufacture

00:07:16.820 methamphetamine charges, uh, like that drug charges and man's in ends up in jail for 26

00:07:25.200 years, uh, in part, uh, through his own volition at various points, at least it appears, uh, as

00:07:33.120 the, as the story is told in your documentary, uh, as, as we watch what happened to Casolaro,

00:07:40.220 we watch what happened to all of the people who got killed, excuse me, all of the people

00:07:47.060 who got killed, uh, uh, relative to the Cabezon Indian reservation, uh, it's, it's near

00:07:54.440 Indio, uh, California, uh, it's, it's a small whisper of a place, uh, how in the world did

00:08:01.720 it take on such prominence in the early stages of your investigation?

00:08:08.200 I, so the, how, how did Cabezon take on prominence for me in the early stages?

00:08:14.840 Uh, it, I, I mean, it didn't necessarily, I, I mean, I actually kind of put Cabezon on the

00:08:21.820 back burner that just sort of led me to Danny Casolaro.

00:08:25.640 Um, but it was more, um, the early stages were kind of like, um, I focused more on the

00:08:33.600 Insla case, uh, basically this documentary and, and the story that Danny was working on

00:08:39.220 is a, um, sort of a interconnected web of different scandals from the 1980s.

00:08:46.540 So it's sort of like you, you can choose any place on the board to start and different people

00:08:52.280 that have found themselves working on this story.

00:08:54.540 Lou, you worked on this story in 1990 and 1991.

00:08:59.580 I bet you found a particular place on the board to enter into the story.

00:09:04.500 Um, for me, it was, it just happened to be Wackenhut, um, for another journalist that we

00:09:09.760 interview, it just happened to be, um, the drugs in Northern California.

00:09:15.140 I mean, you can just, you can get into it from any, any, which way, because it's a, because

00:09:20.520 it's a web, you know, uh, it's like sort of like the board game, sorry, or something.

00:09:25.260 You just start at a place and then you, you know, you go around the circle.

00:09:30.580 It's a circle, uh, without any question whatsoever.

00:09:33.620 And, uh, it is, as we look at it over the course of retrospectively and, and 40 years is

00:09:41.360 a serious retrospection, uh, it is, uh, impossible for me to comprehend how Bill Hamilton, the head

00:09:51.520 of Inslaw, the software company that, uh, that is at the center of this, has declined,

00:09:58.200 apparently, to talk with you guys, uh, has declined to talk with so many, when in point

00:10:03.840 of fact, the Justice Department, he accused them of stealing promise software that became

00:10:10.340 the, if you will, the signature, uh, for the, the octopus murders, the, uh, raw power, uh,

00:10:18.740 uh, confrontation in Washington, D.C., between the Department of Justice, uh, between promise,

00:10:24.500 uh, and, uh, and the relationship to the Reagan administration, everything from the, uh, October

00:10:31.420 surprise, uh, to, to what in the world, uh, were the relationships among the CIA, the intelligence

00:10:39.700 community, NSA, Bill Hamilton himself, with their relationship to the NSA, I mean, it explodes

00:10:46.020 quickly into this canvas of conspiracy and, uh, outrageous, uh, outrageous complexity.

00:10:54.980 Yeah, Bill didn't decline outright.

00:10:59.580 He, he, Bill Hamilton and I, um, we talked many times for many years.

00:11:04.760 He was one of my first, uh, sources and he was an amazing first source to have because

00:11:09.800 he is the expert on all things in Slott, obviously.

00:11:14.600 Um, it wasn't until we wanted to start making a film, I was initially writing a book.

00:11:19.960 Then when Zachary joined me and we started to, uh, make this re the research that I was doing

00:11:26.840 for a book, we started to turn it into a documentary series.

00:11:30.360 It was then for some reason, still unknown to us that Bill Hamilton declined to, um, talk

00:11:36.840 to us on the record, you know, on camera.

00:11:38.720 Um, he, uh, the Casolaro family, you know, his, their brother died, uh, working on helping

00:11:45.960 Bill with his investigation.

00:11:47.720 They asked him to go on camera.

00:11:49.840 He declined.

00:11:50.960 His attorney asked him to go on camera.

00:11:53.860 He declined.

00:11:54.600 And he said his wife wouldn't let him do it.

00:11:56.940 I don't know.

00:11:57.360 I don't know why he didn't want to do it, but we can't make anyone go on camera that

00:12:00.360 doesn't want to go on camera.

00:12:02.140 No.

00:12:02.640 And one understands the level of intimidation that he may feel from any number of quarters,

00:12:08.080 whether it be the department of justice, whether it be the intelligence community, whether

00:12:12.040 it be whatever agreement, uh, is a, uh, in the shadows with the justice department, there

00:12:18.340 may have been a settlement of which we know nothing, but it also reintroduces the other

00:12:23.320 characters.

00:12:23.920 A fellow who worked for the CIA for seven years himself, a guy by the name of Bill Barr,

00:12:29.400 who became attorney general under the current, uh, the current, uh, uh, Trump, uh, regime,

00:12:36.480 uh, some, what, 30 years later, uh, he playing a role, his own father, Bill Barr, his father

00:12:43.900 was the headmaster of Dalton school.

00:12:46.120 His father is a guy who hired Jeffrey Epstein.

00:12:49.320 Bill Barr is the guy who, uh, some allege covered up the murder of Jeffrey Epstein, uh,

00:12:56.300 in prison.

00:12:57.060 Uh, it's, you can't find a way in the world, uh, to construct this as fiction because the,

00:13:04.360 the reality of these relationships over the course of years, uh, just are implausible.

00:13:11.740 They're incredible.

00:13:12.520 And every one of them true, uh, Bill Barr, by the way, officiating for the department

00:13:17.740 of justice in an investigation of its role with ends law, my gosh, he's the guy who decided

00:13:23.840 not to put together a special investigator.

00:13:26.620 He made the decision in behalf of the department of justice to find for the department of justice.

00:13:32.220 Does that sound familiar to anyone in this day and age in which we live your thoughts,

00:13:36.880 guys?

00:13:38.160 Yeah.

00:13:38.560 I mean, um, that it's so interesting.

00:13:41.580 Um, the, the role that, that Bill Barr, we don't get into it cause our timeline ends

00:13:46.400 with the death of Danny Casolaro and Bill Barr picked up, um, after Danny Casolaro's death

00:13:51.800 by appointing, uh, this, uh, judge from Chicago to review the evidence in, you know, in Slott's

00:13:58.080 allegations.

00:13:58.860 Um, this guy, Nicholas Bua.

00:14:01.120 Um, but no, but, uh, you know, after the show came out, a reporter that I used to work

00:14:06.700 with at the New York times got in touch with me, he had been looking into the, uh, Jeffrey

00:14:12.500 Epstein case and that led him to promise and led him to Bill Hamilton, you know, it's just

00:14:17.060 like, and his, you know, it's just crazy.

00:14:19.240 It's this, the story is just, it's such a web.

00:14:22.420 It is a web.

00:14:23.380 It is an American conspiracy as you entitled it. 0.53

00:14:26.700 And, uh, it's well titled the octopus murders.

00:14:30.460 We are talking with the director, Zachary Trites and the Christian Hanson, uh, the author

00:14:36.980 of, uh, uh, uh, this fabulous, uh, web of intrigue, uh, that we all participate in.

00:14:43.340 Thanks to your wonderful documentary.

00:14:45.280 We're coming right back with them as we explore further the, the octopus murders and American 1.00

00:14:51.060 conspiracy.

00:14:51.840 There's so many conspiracies.

00:14:53.520 It seems these days are, we'll be right back.

00:14:56.160 Please stay with us.

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00:16:34.220 We're back now.

00:16:35.260 We're talking with investigative journalist Christian Hansen and film director, his childhood

00:16:40.960 friend, as well as his director, Zachary Trites.

00:16:45.880 And I want to, Zachary, I want to turn to you first of all as a director.

00:16:50.840 How compelling was this idea when Christian said to you, I've been working on this for a

00:16:57.400 while, let's say a decade and, uh, and maybe we should do something with us.

00:17:02.420 I mean, tell us how that began.

00:17:05.160 I mean, it really began because Christian is just a friend of mine and I, I come from more

00:17:10.920 of like the fictional, um, you know, independent film world.

00:17:14.300 And he was just telling me about Danny Casolaro and this story at Cabazon and all, all of these

00:17:22.620 octopus related things, just as a, as a friend, basically.

00:17:26.100 Um, and I, maybe I'm sort of naturally a skeptic a little bit, um, and naturally wary of things

00:17:34.680 like this.

00:17:35.260 And so I was really just a sounding board for him saying, what are you doing?

00:17:41.080 You know, like, I don't understand what you're talking about.

00:17:43.940 Um, and, and it, and it really, for me, I mean, I, I came into it, I would not have had anything

00:17:50.180 to do with this story.

00:17:50.980 If it wasn't for Christian, I came into it as his friend and really originally worried

00:17:56.000 about him as a friend.

00:17:57.740 Cause it seemed like it was an all encompassing kind of story and, and his, his family, his

00:18:03.060 sisters and our friends, we were all kind of like, what is Christian doing?

00:18:07.180 Cause he's spending, you gotta, you gotta understand this kind of effort that decoding something

00:18:12.560 like this takes.

00:18:13.360 I mean, he would be up for literally like a couple of days at a time going through PDFs.

00:18:18.500 He's downloaded off the internet or the files that he found that are, uh, you know, Danny's

00:18:23.140 research that he's decoding.

00:18:25.140 Um, so it was a little worrisome.

00:18:26.660 And then he started telling me about the people he was reaching out to, um, who were involved

00:18:31.240 with the story, who Danny had talked to.

00:18:33.260 And then I was worried, you know, on the other side, it's like some of these people seemed

00:18:37.320 extremely dangerous.

00:18:39.340 Um, there were a lot of deaths, uh, around people that Danny Castellaro was talking to

00:18:45.680 in 1990 and 1991.

00:18:47.540 And now Christian's reaching out to these people, you know, it just didn't seem like a great

00:18:52.740 thing for his health.

00:18:54.700 Um, so then, um, by the way, I want to compliment.

00:18:58.960 I think that you captured that, uh, in Christian, uh, in your documentary, uh, it, cinematically,

00:19:08.140 uh, you can see the wear on his face, uh, and, uh, your concern.

00:19:14.080 And I, I think if I may put it this way, that skepticism you referred to was an interesting

00:19:19.820 cinematic, uh, uh, uh, touchstone too, because it really needed to be there, uh, as it, as the

00:19:28.180 story unfolds.

00:19:29.180 Uh, and yet, despite all of that, the story carries us all through, uh, to be, to the

00:19:35.000 edge of the web, to the, uh, to the darkest parts of the conspiracy.

00:19:38.940 And again, my compliments to you both.

00:19:41.400 I mean, yeah, well, I think it's really good.

00:19:43.380 I appreciate that.

00:19:45.080 Always nice to hear.

00:19:46.240 Um, but I think that, I think that what the thing is, is that ultimately when you start

00:19:50.960 talking about this, even if you're a skeptic, there's just certain little things that get

00:19:55.820 you hooked on being like, well, there's something there.

00:19:59.260 There's obviously something there.

00:20:00.980 And the process that we go through in the four episodes of this documentary series is kind

00:20:07.140 of going from one little, if we're, you know, say we're climbing this mountain, it's like

00:20:12.240 Christians on the little above the mountain. 0.63

00:20:14.640 And then I start climbing and then we're together, we're hooked in together and our kind of fates

00:20:19.660 are intertwined as we're going up this thing, you know, maybe one falls off the cliff and

00:20:23.900 the other one has to belay him back up.

00:20:25.520 I mean, not to extend the metaphor too far, but, but it really does kind of get, grab onto

00:20:31.740 you.

00:20:32.400 And, um, and it's hard to put down certain things that, that Christian uncovered.

00:20:36.940 And then we uncovered together and just say, ah, it's just a conspiracy.

00:20:40.440 You know, it's, it's difficult, um, one of the main characters who I mentioned earlier,

00:20:45.600 who had been in prison, Michael Ricanaschudo, we basically, we had a really long drive from,

00:20:51.740 um, from Lompoc, California, Lompoc, California to Temecula.

00:20:58.380 And we got stuck in traffic, but we, we wanted to, we wanted to spend as much time with Michael

00:21:03.300 as possible.

00:21:03.940 And we, Zach was sitting in the front seat and I was sitting in the beside him in the back

00:21:08.560 seat and we were filming him the whole time.

00:21:11.140 So, and he told us this long story.

00:21:14.340 And at the end of that day, we were kind of like, yeah, right.

00:21:18.240 No way.

00:21:18.800 You know, and especially Zach, I mean, I always had a little bit more familiarity with this

00:21:22.720 stuff, but still there was a lot, it wasn't rehashed.

00:21:25.920 There was a lot of new stuff that we talked about on this, on this drive.

00:21:29.320 And then, you know, we basically get back to New York and, and transcribe this hours long

00:21:35.980 conversation.

00:21:36.680 We just start going line by line, claim by claim to debunk the stuff that we thought was,

00:21:43.580 was bull.

00:21:44.680 And there was bull, but it was the really mundane things that you wouldn't even think to try

00:21:51.800 to fact check that were not, did it not turned out to not be, we couldn't prove, but then

00:21:59.160 it was the absurd wild claims about a serial killer, for instance, that was his minder in

00:22:06.680 San Francisco that turned out to be, Oh, deadly true.

00:22:12.580 You know, the FBI was running around, uh, as a, as a, essentially a, a hit man. 0.91

00:22:21.040 And also just a guy who enjoys killing people and robbing them and raping women, um, as an 0.84

00:22:28.160 informant for the FBI, you know, it just sounded to me, it sounded like paranoid delusion because 0.99

00:22:33.820 I, I just didn't believe it.

00:22:36.420 I'm sorry, but a lot of that turned out to be true.

00:22:39.560 And that was Michael's story and, and, and I have to hand it to him that there were the

00:22:45.240 things that were true were mind blowing to me.

00:22:49.100 And of course the FBI and the department of justice later in the future, come in and right

00:22:54.020 all wrongs, apologize to the American public for leaving a hit man and informant, a human,

00:23:00.500 uh, confidential source, uh, out there, uh, destroying lives and wreaking havoc and raping 0.97

00:23:07.340 women. 0.98

00:23:07.660 Uh, that didn't happen either.

00:23:09.720 Did it?

00:23:10.440 No, I don't remember that part of the story.

00:23:12.960 Yeah, it didn't happen.

00:23:15.060 Uh, and the fact is, it's a part of the mystery that remains with us.

00:23:18.240 Uh, and that is how in the world could this all have happened?

00:23:22.900 Uh, Rukanasudo, as you talk about that trip, uh, that, uh, drive, uh, he ends up back in

00:23:29.140 prison in three days because he doesn't talk to his probation officer.

00:23:33.680 Is that correct?

00:23:35.420 Yeah.

00:23:35.740 He, he, he didn't, he didn't show up for his, um, probation hearing, which, you know,

00:23:41.340 he had been let out in California and he was supposed to go up to Washington state, which

00:23:44.960 was his sentencing district.

00:23:46.340 Um, and what he claimed to us was that he was just, um, I was afraid to go up there, um,

00:23:54.680 that Washington state had people who were out to get him.

00:23:58.580 Um, which again, uh, to me, I just normally route that, write that off as paranoid delusion.

00:24:05.700 But if you look at Michael's life and you look deeper into it and the number of people

00:24:10.880 who have been hurt around him, it's hard to write off all of the threats that he's talking

00:24:16.720 about.

00:24:17.120 I don't necessarily believe all of them, but you can understand how somebody who's gone

00:24:21.020 through the life that he has, how, uh, scared your everyday existence might be.

00:24:28.760 Yeah.

00:24:29.340 He found his partner, um, murdered in a, in a horrible, like Yakuza, uh, Sicilian mafia

00:24:37.780 style of, uh, tying someone up so that their, um, the weight of their legs slowly strangles

00:24:44.960 them, um, by their neck, you know, it's like a hog tie.

00:24:48.700 Um, you know, and he found his partner's body like that.

00:24:53.100 And that's a story that has been barely reported that Zachary and I kind of broke open in the

00:24:59.600 third episode.

00:25:00.500 And we don't even make a big deal about the fact that nobody really knew anything about

00:25:04.300 the Muraska case.

00:25:05.380 And we lay out a really interesting, compelling scenario of why it happened and how and by whom.

00:25:11.140 Um, and James Muraska, you know, one of the early victims in this with a wire around his

00:25:18.500 throat, as you say, uh, just to, just to clear Paul, Paul Muraska, Paul, I'm sorry.

00:25:25.640 Paul, uh, uh, he, his death just goes on a, on unnoticed it for the most part.

00:25:34.500 There's just no consequence in any of this over a very long period of time.

00:25:39.300 At least that, uh, that I can detect or, or, and I'm wondering, did you find the greater

00:25:44.900 consequence?

00:25:45.400 Because I found almost none for all that were completely and utterly crimes, uh, and murderous

00:25:53.140 crimes at that.

00:25:54.360 I think the Paul Muraska case, it's, it's, it's only about 20 minutes of our movie that

00:25:58.640 we, we spend on it.

00:26:00.200 Um, but I think it's the most fascinating in some respects window into this.

00:26:04.940 And, and it almost didn't make the movie because there's, it's so complicated and there

00:26:09.040 was, there's almost nothing publicly available about the Paul Muraska case.

00:26:12.720 Here's a guy who's, uh, on paper or, you know, reportedly a drug sort of intermediary,

00:26:19.820 intermediary, uh, not necessarily a manufacturer, but, uh, um, what wholesaler, a wholesaler of

00:26:26.500 drugs, uh, cocaine, mostly in the early eighties.

00:26:30.460 And, um, he dies after, like Christian said, being hogtied and slowly strangled to death.

00:26:37.400 It seems like there was torture involved.

00:26:39.500 Um, and there's only one article that comes out at that time.

00:26:44.380 And then I think there's maybe an article that comes out years later, right?

00:26:48.200 Christian.

00:26:48.680 I mean, there was almost no news coverage of his death.

00:26:50.920 And I think that, that, you know, I imagine 19, early 1980s, San Francisco, a drug dealer

00:26:56.600 dies and it's just like, well, yeah, it kind of goes through, passes through the, the, uh,

00:27:02.860 news, the sieve and doesn't catch much attention, but it actually is a prism into the octopus

00:27:09.500 that we describe in this, this essentially this West coast side of the octopus, which, which

00:27:15.240 involves to my mind, a group of brilliant psychopaths who were running around the West coast, committing

00:27:23.920 various crimes, um, and doing that in coordination and, or with the help, or at least the looking

00:27:33.460 away of the federal government, um, specifically in this case, uh, federal law enforcement agencies,

00:27:40.340 um, and possibly intelligence agencies.

00:27:43.360 So it's fascinating for me just to like go in there and be like, wow, nobody knows about

00:27:49.500 this stuff.

00:27:50.040 And we have all of this material now.

00:27:52.120 And we got to put that in the movie.

00:27:54.300 You hear these people, these people that Zach described as, uh, you know, what, what do you

00:28:00.040 said?

00:28:00.320 Brilliant sociopaths or whatever he said, we have them on tape.

00:28:03.760 You know, people have asked, are these AI generated?

00:28:07.380 Are these actors?

00:28:08.460 No, these are the actual characters from this crazy story talking about, you know, what they

00:28:14.900 were up to, um, you know, and no, you know, kind of non law enforcement people that had heard

00:28:19.260 this, uh, these planning it to law enforcement, um, you know, their side of a story.

00:28:24.840 And it's not like what they're saying is necessarily true.

00:28:30.100 Uh, they're using obfuscation, but you get to see how they rationalize this series of crimes

00:28:37.320 that they're in the middle of committing essentially.

00:28:39.780 Right.

00:28:40.780 I love the, uh, the, uh, the San Francisco detective who says, well, once the federal

00:28:46.520 government tells you, they don't know what you're talking about, there's really not much

00:28:50.020 a local, uh, cop can do about it.

00:28:52.660 Uh, and he's right.

00:28:54.080 Uh, and that's what happened in case after case after case along the way over the years.

00:28:58.700 Uh, but it's interesting that this octopus, uh, involves some of the biggest names in the

00:29:06.000 Reagan administration, uh, in the Bush administration, uh, and in fact, the national security agency,

00:29:14.080 the FBI, the department of justice, uh, a prominent role.

00:29:17.940 And for the first time we're seeing, uh, through your documentary, the reality of crime, criminals,

00:29:26.760 organized criminals, uh, whether it be the drug trade or where it may be something more,

00:29:31.040 in fact, uh, sinister, if you can imagine, uh, it is the theft of, uh, software intellectual

00:29:38.860 property for a purpose that is, uh, in the national interest because apparently the FBI, the CIA,

00:29:45.700 any number of agencies, including the NSA, want to, uh, inculcate, uh, that software into the

00:29:54.300 systems, the, uh, the digital systems of our both friends and enemies around the world.

00:30:00.320 I mean, that's the prospect that we're, we're looking at here.

00:30:03.980 I want to take that up with you as we continue with these two brilliant documentarians, investigative

00:30:10.140 journalist, Christian Hanson, and film director, Zachary Trites.

00:30:14.240 We'll be right back.

00:30:15.320 Please stay with us.

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00:31:19.940 We're back now.

00:31:21.060 We're talking with the octopus murders chroniclers and creators of a magnificent documentary.

00:31:28.480 I want to take one moment here to urge you to see American Conspiracy, The Octopus Murders

00:31:36.660 on Netflix.

00:31:37.660 I've been recommending it to you for two weeks.

00:31:41.260 Now we have the producers, the director, the author, investigative journalist, Christian

00:31:49.440 Hanson, film director, Zachary Treitz.

00:31:52.080 They're the folks who brought this documentary to life, and it's quite a span of life, some

00:32:00.220 40 years, and it's about murder.

00:32:02.860 It is about government conspiracy.

00:32:04.800 It is about the ugly forces that shape this world, whether we like it or not, or at least

00:32:10.520 parts of our world, and the mysteries that are yet to be solved.

00:32:17.640 And I just want to say thanks again to both of you and my compliments again to both of

00:32:23.020 you.

00:32:23.220 What a remarkable documentary you've created, a series, a four-part series that is, I recommend

00:32:31.840 it to everybody.

00:32:32.800 So let's start with some of the characters in this over the years, because it's not like

00:32:38.940 this documentary resolves.

00:32:41.980 It simply extends the mystery in point of fact.

00:32:45.020 I say simply extends it, because there is so much more we want to know, and we must

00:32:50.220 know, and we know that people have been saying that for 40 years, and still, there are blocks

00:32:56.280 at every turn.

00:32:57.220 There are conflicts and contradictions and confrontations, whether it be government agencies,

00:33:02.740 whether it be criminal hitmen out there working for which syndicate we don't know, or which

00:33:10.720 enterprise we don't know.

00:33:12.020 So I want to turn to some of the characters.

00:33:16.040 Ronald Reagan, his administration, the issue of Promise, the software for the Department of

00:33:21.180 Justice to allow U.S. 0.97

00:33:22.780 attorneys to share information and bring together huge files, and to really own them, and to use

00:33:32.040 them in the, of course, the interest of justice.

00:33:34.200 And to have it stolen from the small software company that created Inslaw is just stunning.

00:33:44.280 I want to, I want to step into it there.

00:33:46.760 Yeah.

00:33:47.320 The way that I, I mean, it's really hard to, to say definitively in the absence of A, receipts,

00:33:59.500 and B, you know, people that were actually involved in this conspiracy to steal and distribute

00:34:06.260 the software with a secret backdoor in it.

00:34:08.060 That's the allegation.

00:34:09.360 Right.

00:34:09.840 To say, for sure, this happened.

00:34:13.200 It fits a logic.

00:34:14.760 It makes sense.

00:34:15.560 And we know, you know, that, you know, with Snowden coming out in like 2013, that the,

00:34:22.720 that the U S government does do this.

00:34:25.120 And it, it, when that story broke, um, it was sort of like, oh, well, this is just happening,

00:34:31.100 but things don't just happen.

00:34:32.740 They evolve, they begin.

00:34:34.800 And, and it would seem that the, um, promise software could be a likely, a very logical

00:34:41.920 starting point for the, um, global data surveillance projects that the, um, U S intelligence community,

00:34:49.880 um, is involved in today.

00:34:53.240 Um, and I think it could very likely have started with, with promise.

00:34:58.900 We just, Zachary and I don't have any receipts, uh, we don't have any hard, you know, we've

00:35:05.020 got allegations, we've got corroboration, but, um, nothing, um, nothing, uh, really solid

00:35:13.040 on that, unfortunately.

00:35:14.240 Well, I mean, we, we have, there's court files from various investigators and, and, and, you

00:35:21.400 know, the, the federal court said that the justice department had stolen the software through

00:35:26.860 trickery lies and deceit secret backdoor.

00:35:31.660 Right, right.

00:35:31.960 I'm just saying that there's, there's, there's all kinds of receipts to various parts, but

00:35:36.080 it's like, once you get into the insula affair and the promise software, it becomes a true

00:35:41.420 hall of mirrors where finding out what, you know, the definitive objective reality of what

00:35:48.240 is going on with this piece of software, the more that we looked at it, the harder it

00:35:53.960 was to understand, if that makes sense, you know, because we usually make the, we make

00:36:01.380 the opposite, the opposite bargain, uh, as investigators, as journalists, uh, we, we expect

00:36:08.980 the more we exert ourselves to understand, to comprehend, to build evidence that we will

00:36:14.740 understand, uh, infinitely more, uh, not just more, uh, and in this case, like so many other

00:36:23.140 instances, uh, over years of, uh, inquiry into the, the dark, uh, uh, the, the darkest shadows

00:36:31.000 of the intelligence community, uh, you know, you know, life isn't easily explained always,

00:36:36.500 uh, but the, the great thing about, and I think the magic that you guys have put together

00:36:42.280 here is you're not in a court of law, you're, you're not, uh, necessarily, uh, interested

00:36:49.920 in just, uh, uh, a, a, a brush aside, uh, of, uh, of, uh, you know, circumstance over here

00:36:57.980 where you're talking about Mike, uh, Ricanasciuto, uh, and his affiliations and his role in all

00:37:03.940 of this, because he should be at the very least, uh, at the very most in most people's minds,

00:37:09.840 I would think, uh, something of a bit player, it turns out he is one heck of a fascinating

00:37:15.660 guy and you can, and, and you can ignore him at your peril quite literally.

00:37:20.880 Yeah.

00:37:21.100 I think that that's, I think that's really important to touch on is, is what we tried to

00:37:25.740 do.

00:37:26.340 And I think this is one of the most effective parts and what I think makes the documentary

00:37:30.620 somewhat unique in this, in this area is that we took an extremely subjective viewpoint,

00:37:36.220 which is, this is my, essentially my view of Christian's view of Danny's Danny Casalero's

00:37:43.060 experience going into the octopus.

00:37:44.640 Right.

00:37:45.120 And that free, this frees us up to experience what it's like to go into this kind of story

00:37:51.140 and meet people who maybe are not telling you the truth and grapple with that in, in the,

00:37:58.500 you know, within the space of the documentary.

00:38:00.600 Um, and not, and it's, I guess it's to say, just because somebody is telling you, not telling

00:38:06.080 you the truth doesn't mean you should ignore what they're saying.

00:38:09.400 Um, is, is one of the lessons to this story because the obfuscation, the, um, the way that

00:38:15.640 these criminal and intelligence operations that we think we brushed up against in telling

00:38:20.740 this story, that's part of the, that's part of the game here.

00:38:25.220 That's part of how this stuff works.

00:38:26.580 And if you're not going to, if you just dismiss something because it sounds kooky or you don't

00:38:31.480 have receipts on it, you're going to, and I think quite purposefully from an intelligence

00:38:36.540 or criminal perspective, you're going to ignore it.

00:38:39.660 Right.

00:38:40.100 And that's what we gave ourselves the license to, to do, which is go out on all these limbs.

00:38:45.860 There's a limb out there called Earl Bryant.

00:38:48.420 Uh, he was the owner of the financial news network.

00:38:51.220 He was a, uh, secretary of the, uh, California state, uh, health department, uh, under, uh,

00:39:00.320 governor Ronald Reagan, uh, and then subsequently follows him to Washington DC and the various

00:39:06.440 roles.

00:39:07.480 There's a fascinating character at the, uh, it, uh, I would call it the nexus of all this,

00:39:13.280 whether we're talking about the October surprise, whether we're talking about, uh, various other

00:39:18.000 enterprises, uh, your thoughts about him.

00:39:20.860 He's, he's quite a character here.

00:39:23.100 Well, let me just start.

00:39:23.860 I think Christian knows a lot more about this than I do, but he is just to set him up even

00:39:28.340 more.

00:39:28.600 Like he was really Danny Casolaro, the investigative journalist and Bill Hamilton, the owner of

00:39:33.680 the software company, Earl Bryant kind of represented the original boogeyman for them.

00:39:38.860 I think, you know, that he was somehow a linchpin in this software being stolen and this vendetta

00:39:46.000 that was being carried out, um, against promise, uh, and Bill Hamilton's company, um, by the

00:39:52.540 justice department.

00:39:53.220 So he, and, and he's this kind of brilliant physician by trade who became, like you said,

00:40:01.900 uh, integral part of Ronald Reagan's, um, kind of inner circle.

00:40:05.840 And Christian, yeah.

00:40:07.580 What do you want to go into kind of like the, the allegation is that, um, his company, um,

00:40:14.760 Hadron, um, had, uh, attempted to, um, when, when in slot in slot basically had, um, this

00:40:24.320 contract dispute with the, this bizarre contract dispute with the department of justice and they

00:40:28.900 were, um, hemorrhaging funds, you know, operations costs because justice department wasn't paying

00:40:34.160 their, their bills due to the contract dispute and, um, they were facing bankruptcy.

00:40:40.280 And when they were at that point, Earl Bryant, uh, one of the president of his company kind of

00:40:46.180 swooped in and said, Hey, we'll take this software off your hands for, for some money, you know,

00:40:50.580 this intellectual property and bills like, no, we're going to figure this out.

00:40:54.880 We're not giving you our software promise.

00:40:57.360 It's too valuable.

00:40:58.200 Um, he had spent his life developing it.

00:41:02.560 And the guy said, you know, we have ways of making you sell.

00:41:06.480 Um, then the justice department, then the company went bankrupt.

00:41:10.360 And due to this very confusing, um, negotiate negotiating tactic, um, in slot was forced to

00:41:18.960 give their source code to their software to the justice department as sort of like a collateral.

00:41:23.880 Um, and I think that is where, um, the problem started as far as the, um, modification, the

00:41:31.260 illegal modification of the software and the, uh, you know, the distribution, the global

00:41:35.940 distribution of it.

00:41:37.020 Um, and, and basically Earl Bryant is said to have been, um, part, there were multiple channels.

00:41:44.100 There was an Israeli channel that, um, Robert Maxwell, a very similar British sort of counterpart

00:41:50.420 to Earl Bryant is said to have been kind of the, uh, uh, distribution, the head of the

00:41:57.320 distribution network of the promise software for Israel.

00:42:00.320 And then where the U S it was said to have been Earl Bryant, um, you know, uh, as like

00:42:05.680 this third party just distributing the software, um, with a secret backdoor in it, you know,

00:42:11.680 um, also just to make things, it's, it's incredible that he has rewarded this, this privilege, uh,

00:42:20.500 by the Reagan administration for his work in helping the Reagan, uh, campaign negotiate

00:42:26.180 with the Iranians to delay the hostages until after the 1980, uh, presidential election.

00:42:31.580 And that, that, that's also part of it.

00:42:34.840 That's part of it.

00:42:35.580 And that's Michael Reconistruto's account of what happened, but Lou, were you, did you

00:42:40.840 know Earl Bryant, um, when in DC, how did you know?

00:42:45.700 Well, I knew him because he was the chairman of a company called the financial news network,

00:42:50.500 uh, that, uh, and I, at that time I worked for a Ted Turner, we were going to buy that

00:42:57.140 company, uh, uh, at, at various points and, and Ted was dealing with the issue.

00:43:04.180 Uh, I was not involved in the negotiation for the property, uh, but I did know Earl

00:43:09.400 Bryant.

00:43:09.740 I did know Paul Steinle, the guy who was the head of FNN over the years.

00:43:15.420 Uh, he was a character to say the very least, uh, the stories were, uh, and there were stories

00:43:21.620 that surrounded him constantly, uh, that he was, uh, a Vietnam war hero.

00:43:26.520 That he worked for the CIA, uh, that, I mean, the legend was large, I'll put it that way.

00:43:33.580 And the shadows were deep, uh, but I, he was a character without question, but.

00:43:39.540 Did he ever admit anything to you off the record?

00:43:42.460 No, no.

00:43:43.020 That now that he's dead, you can maybe share?

00:43:45.640 You know, wouldn't that be something if I were to share something off the record all

00:43:49.420 these years later?

00:43:50.140 Uh, but the truth is try as I may, I didn't get him, uh, to, to confess to a thing, uh,

00:43:57.860 nor did, you know, we have a relationship in which that would have even been, uh, thinkable.

00:44:03.280 Interestingly, just Robert, I just want to throw out this is like, we don't even go into this

00:44:08.000 in the documentary, but two quick, two quick points that we, you know, would be fun to add

00:44:12.540 into the public record is, um, financial news network, which was, uh, Danny's best friend

00:44:18.740 and clinic who we interview actually worked for financial news network and put Danny, the

00:44:25.040 journalist was desperate to talk to Earl Bryan and she put them, uh, she brought Danny to

00:44:31.080 a, um, company pick company picnic.

00:44:34.820 Right.

00:44:35.300 And, you know, or she was like, Danny, don't embarrass me in front of, you know, this is

00:44:39.060 like the big boss, man.

00:44:40.120 She had apparently no real relationship with him.

00:44:42.680 She was just like, don't embarrass me and get me fired here. 1.00

00:44:45.420 Um, but they played this volleyball game, Danny and, um, and Earl Bryan and Earl Bryan

00:44:50.420 and just completely schooled Danny and volleyball just was, even though he was a big, he was,

00:44:57.580 he was a, he was an athlete.

00:44:59.420 Uh, he also, I mean, it was a, uh, you know, basically a national class.

00:45:05.300 Uh, tennis player and apparently had been in, uh, uh, uh, in Vietnam, uh, you know, very

00:45:12.300 serious special forces, uh, guy.

00:45:15.480 Right.

00:45:16.100 We've heard the same.

00:45:17.260 Yeah.

00:45:17.600 Yeah.

00:45:17.960 And then, and then around the time that Danny's writing this, um, in 1991, you know, he also

00:45:25.020 owned UPI, which is the big competitor to the associated press, United Press International

00:45:30.940 and financial news network and a host of other companies.

00:45:33.860 One of which obviously was competing for contracts, like software contracts, like the, like the

00:45:38.940 promise one with justice department.

00:45:40.440 He also, they also did work with the C his companies did work with the CIA.

00:45:44.200 They did work on nuclear submarines, Navy customs, all kinds of stuff.

00:45:49.120 I mean, it goes deep, but interestingly, like so many people in our story, he goes to jail,

00:45:56.540 goes to, was arrested right after, well, I mean, he was arrested, um, 96, but his, his

00:46:03.320 companies went bankrupt in 91, right?

00:46:05.060 When Danny was writing this story.

00:46:06.380 Um, and he lost control of FNN, FNN became CNBC.

00:46:11.880 Um, and he was, um, he was in prison for securities fraud, essentially, uh, financial crimes.

00:46:19.340 Yeah.

00:46:20.340 Financial crimes.

00:46:21.300 And, uh, to go back to Robert Maxwell, who I also knew, he was also a, a person with a,

00:46:30.860 an illustrious background, but not always illuminated.

00:46:34.360 Uh, it was, uh, he was with, in my judgment without question, Masson, he was, uh, without

00:46:42.320 question, uh, working, uh, uh, diligently in their behalf.

00:46:46.940 Uh, he also then, of course, had relationships within, uh, the U.S.

00:46:51.200 intelligence agencies, uh, national media.

00:46:54.740 Uh, he was a perfect asset, uh, for them at that point.

00:46:58.640 Uh, and he was, as the saying goes, living large, taking over, I believe it was the daily

00:47:04.000 news at one point, uh, expanding his, uh, empire, his newspaper empire across Europe and

00:47:11.840 the United States.

00:47:12.700 But to the point, uh, he had a role in much of this.

00:47:17.320 And I really think that what, uh, to get to the, again, to the incipient point here, uh,

00:47:23.200 of this, uh, marvelous, marvelous mystery.

00:47:26.820 I, we're talking about for the first time, the American media, whether it's you guys, whether

00:47:33.060 it's me and a handful of folks over the course of years, uh, we were seeing the early representation

00:47:40.020 of the, uh, emergence of the surveillance state through promise software, through the conflict 0.65

00:47:47.880 and the arrogance of the government to simply say to Bill Hamilton, go to hell.

00:47:52.880 Uh, we want this, we're taking it and we'll do it, whatever is necessary to make it happen.

00:47:58.040 Uh, I think all of that happened.

00:47:59.660 I think that it is also very much, I think you can hear the echoes of the octopus murders,

00:48:06.320 uh, and the American conspiracy in every day as a newspaper one way or the other, uh, nearly

00:48:12.680 every significant, uh, television newscast.

00:48:16.560 Uh, we're watching a government emerged with, uh, uh, corporate interest, uh, and, uh, and

00:48:24.640 infiltrating our, our civil life in this country that, uh, I think that your documentary, uh,

00:48:31.620 presents a, just a startling and extraordinary window into, uh, with, uh, with historical context

00:48:39.660 and much foreboding for our future.

00:48:42.360 Guys, I want to give you the last word here as we, uh, as we wrap up.

00:48:47.140 And again, just thank you so much for American conspiracy, uh, the octopus murders, uh, if we 0.52

00:48:54.100 may, Zachary, begin with you.

00:48:56.220 Oh, well, I really appreciate it, Lou.

00:48:57.860 Um, yeah, I mean, I think that it's important issues that we bring up to grapple with.

00:49:02.420 I mean, we really tried to stay focused on telling our story and not expanding it out beyond

00:49:08.280 our knowledge base, right?

00:49:10.100 It's just, we're really focused on what happened in this specific period of time with what Danny

00:49:15.120 was looking into.

00:49:16.260 And I would, uh, maybe, I don't mean to, you know, challenge your viewers.

00:49:21.700 I don't want to presume anything about anything, but it's an interesting story.

00:49:24.100 Um, for people to grapple with, especially when they think about, this is essentially

00:49:30.720 a Reagan era scandal.

00:49:31.900 I'm not saying that there's no scandals during, you know, democratic or Republican

00:49:35.540 administrations, but this specific one is about, if you want to look at its core, I would

00:49:41.160 say is about what happens when military intelligence, military projects and things like that are privatized.

00:49:50.120 Essentially.

00:49:50.620 It's about selling off, um, contracts and things like that to the private sector and, um, the

00:49:58.620 dangers of what happens when intelligence operatives, um, and these people go into the, into this

00:50:06.640 kind of public private part sphere.

00:50:10.160 This, this kind of like, um, um, this meshy gray zone.

00:50:14.160 And that's what Iran Contra was about.

00:50:15.740 That's what a lot of the scandals that Danny was looking into are about.

00:50:18.220 And so it's, it's, you know, wherever you're coming from, uh, I think it challenges your

00:50:23.360 notions of what is going on within our government and around our government that, um, would be

00:50:30.820 better served if we all knew what was going on rather than keeping it under the, uh, sort

00:50:35.920 of national security umbrella where nobody's allowed to see what the heck is really going

00:50:40.420 on.

00:50:40.680 Yeah.

00:50:41.380 Robert, Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood movie star with a great smile and he was very charismatic

00:50:46.840 and, and it's easy to look back on the past and just see that.

00:50:50.920 But, um, you look no further than his director of the CIA, William Casey, who is as wily as

00:50:58.060 they come and, uh, got a lot, it's got a lot done.

00:51:03.760 They got a lot done one way or another.

00:51:06.340 Yeah, it's, it's historically, this, uh, that period of, uh, well, from, in my opinion, from

00:51:14.880 1980 forward, which would encompass also, of course, the, you know, the October surprise,

00:51:20.500 uh, to, to 90 to 88, uh, that's a period of which we watched the Soviet Union fall.

00:51:29.720 Uh, it collapsed and it collapsed not of just its own weight, uh, but, uh, with extraordinarily

00:51:36.020 brilliant strategies on the part of the United States, uh, diplomatic war, the, uh, the White 0.92

00:51:42.220 House, uh, led by the White House throughout, uh, and the intelligence agencies, uh, that,

00:51:48.560 uh, tore them asunder, uh, in totalitarianism, uh, did then collapse.

00:51:54.060 And unfortunately, also the history tells us, uh, the surveillance state did not recede,

00:51:59.460 uh, with lesser threats.

00:52:02.160 It actually expanded, uh, to the point that we're in the, I think the national crisis right

00:52:07.800 now.

00:52:08.100 You know, and the, the brilliant work they did in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen, you know,

00:52:15.360 these things all have repercussions, um, you know, deadly, horrible repercussions, but

00:52:21.720 yeah, the Soviet Union did collapse.

00:52:23.320 I'm not, it's a whole, it's why that was so necessary.

00:52:27.140 Uh, but the point being that what is never necessary in my opinion is to in any way constrict

00:52:35.900 the rights of American citizens to those bill of rights, uh, it's being done daily, uh, it

00:52:41.020 is being done, uh, it's being carried out energetically by the surveillance state, uh,

00:52:45.840 and, uh, and I think as, again, uh, we, we're deeply in your debt for providing a, a, uh,

00:52:52.460 a window into a world that needs to be, uh, uh, illuminated further.

00:52:57.380 And we thank you so much for that.

00:52:59.000 I look forward to our next conversation.

00:53:01.100 Yeah.

00:53:01.860 There's so many.

00:53:02.940 You're a great interviewer, Lou.

00:53:04.380 Well, thank you very much.

00:53:05.520 There's a lot, there's a lot to cover and, and, you know, even our three and a half hour

00:53:09.760 documentary, we just feel like we scratched the surface of this thing.

00:53:12.800 Well, you know, I, I hope, you know, that scratching the surface is great fun because

00:53:17.840 that means that there is great material awaiting us all, uh, from here.

00:53:21.800 Uh, I, I truly believe, uh, that, uh, the country is so well-served by, uh, your talents

00:53:29.400 and your documentary and God bless you.

00:53:32.020 And I'd love to talk to you about conclusive things, but I don't want to give in, give away

00:53:36.320 storylines and, uh, uh, so, uh, we'll take that up at a more appropriate point.

00:53:42.800 I doubt, uh, you know, after, uh, you know, another 5 million people watch the documentary.

00:53:48.060 That sounds great.

00:53:49.200 Thanks so much, gentlemen.

00:53:50.380 We appreciate it.

00:53:51.500 Zachary.

00:53:51.800 Thank you, Christian.

00:53:52.600 Thank you.

00:53:53.260 Bye.

00:53:53.880 I want to say thanks to Christian and Zachary.

00:53:55.900 They were terrific guests today.

00:53:57.640 Terrific, uh, producers of the new important documentary, American Conspiracy, The Octopus

00:54:05.380 Murders.

00:54:06.080 I think you will love it.

00:54:07.280 Uh, it's, it's a remarkable window, uh, into the relationship between government, the intelligence

00:54:12.980 communities, and of course, organized crime and what has become the surveillance state

00:54:18.580 in this country.

00:54:19.720 Uh, for everyone who joined us, I want to say thanks as well.

00:54:22.840 Uh, the interview is on the audio podcast.

00:54:25.800 The full video, by the way, is available on our Rumble channel.

00:54:29.800 That's, uh, check out, uh, rumble.com, that's slash Lou Dobbs, rumble.com slash Lou Dobbs.

00:54:39.920 Uh, and you can watch the video of today's interview.

00:54:42.760 Uh, I think you'll, uh, you'll find it, uh, well, I think entertaining and informative.

00:54:47.900 So thanks everyone for being with us.

00:54:49.860 We'll see you here tomorrow for the great America show.

00:54:53.820 Thanks so much.

00:54:54.800 God bless.

00:54:55.460 God bless.

The Great America Show - March 25, 2024

AMERICAN CONSPIRACY： THE OCTOPUS MURDERS

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