FEEBLE U.S. LEADERSHIP HAS ALLOWED CHINA AND RUSSIA TO UNDERMINE WESTERN DOMINANCE OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMIC SYSTEM
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Summary
In this episode of the Great America Show, host Lou Dobbs is joined by Gordon Chang and Tony Schaefer to discuss China's rise as a major economic and political power in the world. They discuss the importance of the recent summit between President Xi Jinping and President Vladimir Putin, the latest in the China-U.S. relationship, and how China is stepping into the vacuum left by the Biden administration.
Transcript
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Hello, everybody. I'm Lou Dobbs, and welcome to The Great America Show. It's great to have you with us.
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It's been an interesting week for U.S.-China relations, the FBI arresting two New York City
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residents on charges of conspiring to act as agents for China and obstruction of justice.
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The two men, authorities say, operated a Chinese secret police station in the Chinatown area of
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Manhattan. The Department of Justice said the men worked together to establish the first overseas
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police station on behalf of China's Ministry of Public Security. If convicted, they face up to 25
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years in prison. Turning now to the latest on Jack Teixeira, the man accused of the biggest document
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leak since Edward Snowden. New documents from the Pentagon leak show U.S. officials knew about four
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more Chinese surveillance balloons than they revealed to the public. One of those balloons
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reportedly flew over a U.S. carrier group in the Pacific Ocean. That occurrence was never reported
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publicly. The Pentagon saying this week they don't know how many more leaked documents are out there
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as they look to mitigate the embarrassment to the Biden administration and damage to national security.
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Joining us now is Gordon Chang, author, attorney, China expert, and Tony Schaefer, president of the
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London Center for Policy Research and host of the all-new podcast, The Hard Truth with Tony Schaefer.
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Gordon, Tony, great to have you with us here. And what we know will be a fascinating conversation
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about foreign policy, particularly as it pertains to China. Let's turn to the summit, the recent summit
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between Xi and Putin. Your thoughts, Gordon, about the importance of that summit and what came of it.
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There's a lot that went on behind the scenes, which we don't know about, Lou, of course. But the important
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thing is when Xi Jinping actually said farewell to Putin, and this was public, and Xi Jinping said,
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change is coming, change that has not occurred over the last century. And then he said to Putin,
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and you and I together are driving that change. Well, what he was really saying was that the U.S.
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was no longer a factor because China and Russia together were basically determining the course
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of the world. And in a sense, you know, that's right, because they have been driving events,
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because the United States, which is basically a far stronger power than China and Russia combined,
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is led by a weak leader. So you've got two, I believe, weak states, China and Russia, with strong
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leaders. And the United States, a strong state with a weak leader. But we know who is actually the one
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right now that is, as Reggie Jackson used to say, the straw that stirs the drink.
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Yeah, your thoughts, Tony. So I agree with Gordon. I think the two things which we're going to watch
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is the fact that since Gordon is correct, the leadership of the United States is seen as
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ineffective, as weak. And while the potentiality there is for the United States to influence
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events, it's chosen not to. So that nature abhors a vacuum, Lou. And so China is stepping into that
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vacuum, especially in the Middle East. The other area which the Chinese are clearly the PRC is
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leading on is the Middle East, where they've been able to bring two warring powers that go back 100
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years or more, the Sunni and Shia, the Saudis and Iranians to the table to a potential negotiated
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agreement, which in my view, torpedoes the Abraham Accords, because obviously we were working with
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our Sunni, our Saudi allies to bring peace via this process with the Israelis. That's gone because
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the Biden administration did nothing to manage that. And secondly, to Gordon's point, both parties,
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both powers together, the Russians and Chinese, both seek to undermine the Western dominance of the global
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economic system, particularly the dollar. The dollar has been since Nixon made it, the petrodollar,
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the reserve currency of the world. Clearly, Putin doesn't want that. He's doing everything he can
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to undermine and make sure that he gets rubles for the energy he sells. And clearly, the Chinese are
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going to partner with him to allow them to be the receiver of those energy needs. And I think that's one of the
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things China needs as a reliable partner to provide it energy. So what better than to have the Russians
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working with you to strengthen your economy and your energy needs and then work with you as a
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partner to undermine our global dominance in currency? And I do believe, Lou, that the ultimate
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objective of both the Russian leader and the Chinese leader is to basically defang the United States from
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the position of power that Gordon outlined, that we are a very powerful country. But if we're not no
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longer the currency of choice, then our economy, I think, will be suffering greatly. And that's what
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the Chinese, I think, ultimately want. They don't want to have to meet us in battle if they can defeat
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And economics is really the battlefield of the 21st century, in my opinion. Hopefully, it'll remain so.
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But when we look at this summit, what really came of it, one of them was the comment by Vladimir Putin
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that this is not a military alliance between China and Russia. I'm not too sure what that means.
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I'd like to hear from each of you on that. Gordon?
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Well, first of all, technically, Putin is right. China does not have an obligation,
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a legal obligation to defend Russia by treaty. China is so arrogant that it does not want to
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have alliances. In fact, it only has one alliance, and that is with North Korea. And that's an historic
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relic. And the Chinese are embarrassed to buy it. They don't talk about it. But it doesn't really
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matter whether it's a formal alliance or not. We have China all in supporting Russia on the
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Ukraine war. And it's been the elevated commodity purchases, which effectively finance Putin's war
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effort. China opening up its financial system to sanctioned Russian institutions. China putting
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its diplomats in service of the Kremlin. China putting central government and Communist Party
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propaganda outlets to amplify Russian disinformation about the war. And from the very beginning of
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this war, China's been providing lethal assistance to Russia. Biden administration says lethal
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assistance is a red line, but the Chinese keep crossing it. Biden doesn't want to acknowledge
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that. And so the Chinese hear our warnings as hollow. And some of the most dangerous moments in history is
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when you have aggressors believe that the great democracies are only capable of issuing hollow
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warnings. And that's the situation we have right now, Lou.
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Tony, your thoughts about what Gordon has just said?
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Yeah, look, yeah, I think they have done exercises, that is the Russians and the PRC. So they have a
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relationship. But simply having a relationship does not mean it's an alliance. And I think they're downplaying
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it at this point, because they they do want to be seen as two independent powers that are seeking
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their own future, but working together on mutual terms of interest. I think there's a long term
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danger, Lou, that China will eventually turn on Russia. But right now, it's a it's a marriage of
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convenience. Again, as I mentioned before, the economic winds of fate have pushed them together.
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China quickly allowed for the bypassing of sanctions right after we we put them on Russia back about a
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year, a little over a year ago, when the invasion happened. They've been happy to do that. And then
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also, again, the reliable energy source for China is important. I think ultimately, China will see
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Russia as a weak partner and dominated much like I'm going to use this analogy and it may get me in
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trouble. But, you know, the Nazis and and Russia, the Soviets were very happy to carve up Poland at
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one point. But then obviously, you know, when Hitler thought that it was in his interest to move on and
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do, you know, to be the greater power, he did it. And I see the Chinese with their ultimate cultural
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belief that they are the chosen people of the world. And a certain level of arrogance, as as Gordon
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said, they're very arrogant. I think a lot of it has to do with them being the belief that the Han
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their their people are the the cultural enlightened that are due to eventually rule the planet. So I
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think there's a certain amount of that in this relationship. But Putin, again, will use the
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relationship right now with the Chinese for mutual benefit. They both see benefit at this point.
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One of the points of departure, I think, is when we talk about arrogance and geopolitics,
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do either of these countries and arrogance, I think, can be safely ascribed, you know, ascribed
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to both to both Russia and China. But does either of those countries rise to the level of the United
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States and the arrogance of its leaders? There is nothing more arrogant than ignoring obvious,
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clear and present dangers and threats, which are surrounding us from the east, from the west.
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And certainly Europe right now looks like nothing more than a beachhead for Western civilization,
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Yeah, Lou, I think that the Biden administration is arrogant. Another word that I would use would be
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oblivious. Another word would be feeble. But clearly, we see all of those strains there where Biden is not
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willing to acknowledge what's happening in the world. The world is dividing into camps. China and Russia are
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forming the core of a new axis. And around that core, you have North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, Algeria.
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And when one of these regimes cause troubles, the others are actually, I think, going to take advantage of it.
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And so we're going to see trouble break out around the world. And that's really the you know,
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that's really the problem right now in Ukraine. And that is that I think the future of the world gets
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written in Ukraine, or at least the future of the next several decades gets written in Ukraine, where
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if we prevail, the Chinese and the proxies, I think, slink back into the shadows. But if Putin does well
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there, I'm sure China is going to see that as a green light on Taiwan, Japan, the Philippines, India,
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the United States. So this is an exceedingly consequential moment. And it's Biden's arrogance
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or obliviousness or feebleness, or all three that are really driving this right now.
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Yeah, and I agree, Lou, with Gordon on this. There's an arrogance by the fact that the Biden
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administration and those who inhabit it exercise an extraordinary version of projection. They project
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onto others on the international stage what they think they should be doing. Tony Blinken is a master of
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being completely feckless in his understanding of foreign parties. And I think it's the idea that
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that in many cases, they project that Biden administration projects onto others, how they
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would react to stimulus. It's amazing to watch how they cannot accept feedback that tells them,
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hey, this ain't working like you think it is. Or if it is working, like you think it is, you don't
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actually take advantage of it and do something else to stabilize the situation. And I'm going to say
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something now that may not sit well with everybody. But look, the Biden administration is not trying to
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win Ukraine as much as they're throwing money at it. And I've got a chart over here that outlines
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the $113.4 billion that they've sent. It's feckless. Sun Tzu once said, tactics without strategy is the
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noise before defeat. And there's nobody in the Biden administration thinking strategically.
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They do not understand or wish to comprehend what Gordon said regarding linkages on the global stage.
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Putin, much of what he's doing is playing his speech on the anniversary of the war. It was to play to an
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audience that he finds important, which is the Russian audience and those in the third world, in Asia
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and Africa. The Biden administration doesn't even come up as a blip now because they're so detached
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from the reality in which these other countries live and want work. And that's what and what's
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dangerous about it is they don't even understand that. They don't even understand, Lou, that the
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world's passed them by. And to Gordon's point, there's new camps being formed. It's like when you
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were a kid, you know, on the on the playground being picked for dodgeball. They've been picking their
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dodgeball teams. And Joe Biden ain't going to be picked anytime soon. We're talking with Tony
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Schaefer and Gordon Chang. Please stay with us. We'll be right back after this quick message from
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our sponsor. We're back now talking with Tony Schaefer, Gordon Chang. I think it's as troubling as all of
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that is the consolidation of power centers around the world, a realignment, if you will, a shift,
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perhaps even a tectonic level shift in in trade, in military, in military as well as economic
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relationships. There have to be conditions preceding because to go to the point about tactics without
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strategy. What we are watching may not be without strategy because we may not it may not have been
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articulated. So I'm going to ask both of you, what do you see as the condition, the conditions
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preceding to this global alignment that is built around the the axis of both China and Russia? And
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let's consider that's an intermediate relationship, the terms of which can be satisfied for the next
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10, 20 years. What are the what are the conditions that have to be met before there is such a thing as
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a a a real adjustment in the power centers favoring both China and Russia and diminishing
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the United States role? Because let's be and I want to add one other thing in that
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the European nations, what are there are only seven nations that are meeting their 2% of budget
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obligations for military preparedness? They are basically bystanders on their own front.
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And the United States, this administration is trying to assert itself.
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They look ludicrous and and feeble, the Europeans. But that is either by design or by default.
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If you if you would begin with those thoughts, if you would, Gordon.
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Yeah, the condition preceding, Lou, is the failure of American leadership. And that's what we have right
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now. There would not have been an invasion of Ukraine if there were not the catastrophic withdrawal
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from Afghanistan. That catastrophic withdrawal, you know, as Tony's been talking about, is really just
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Biden's failure to understand the consequences of what was going to happen. And then after it happened,
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Biden absolutely refused to acknowledge what had occurred. So you then have Ukraine. Ukraine is going
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to lead on to something else. You know, if we go back to something which was analogous during the 1970s,
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we had Nixon and Kissinger there saying, well, we need to have detente because the Soviet Union was going
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to be there forever. And so therefore, we need to have this understanding and dialogue with the
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Soviets. Well, Reagan said, yeah, I'll talk to the Soviets, but I believe we should win. They should
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lose. That was Reagan talking about his strategy. That was American leadership. Once there was American
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leadership, you saw the reactivation of the dissidents in the Soviet Union.
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You saw all sorts of other good things occur. And that eventually led to the failure and collapse
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of the Soviets. Now, it's the same thing right now. What we're having is a collapse of the international
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order. And it's collapsing because Joe Biden does not understand as this is what Tony was just saying
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a few moments ago. It is the direct result of a lack of strategy, a lack of understanding,
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And if I could add to that, Lou, to the question, what precedes the change is the fact that
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we have abandoned the high ground. For better or for worse, the United States, after World War II,
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inherited the global mantle of empire. And I'm not an eocon, and please take my words for the grain of
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salt. I once debated Ron Paul when he was running for president on your colleague,
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John Stossel's show on Fox Business a few years ago when he ran. And Ron Paul was against the idea
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of us being the referee or determinant factor for keeping lines of communication and commerce open.
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And my argument was, yeah, I'm not necessarily for us doing it, but if we don't do it, who does it then?
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And that's the danger here where if we're not the ones doing it, someone else may do it.
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And I don't think we're going to necessarily like the way they do it. It's not going to be fair.
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And I think if nothing else, we have been, Lou, mostly attempting to be fair regarding the global system of
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economic exchange and commerce. I don't believe for a minute the Chinese are going to share our altruism
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in the interest of global trade. I think they will gain and seek advantage at every step, and I don't think
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we're going to like that. So the condition is obviously us slipping away from the international order which has
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existed. And then the other thing relating to that is the fact that the U.S. empire, which Reagan did,
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I think, act appropriately from strength. The idea is we will be strong, we will be prepared to act,
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but we will try not to act. And I think that's what's lacking now, too. Biden acts the opposite.
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Anytime that there's an option of using force, they use weakness, they show weakness. Heck, the other day
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when the Iranians attacked the troops in Syria, which I'm not for our troops being there right now,
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I don't think they have a clear mission. But when they were attacked after the United States Air Force
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retaliated using F-15 strike eagles, the Pentagon immediately apologized, like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm
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sorry we hit you. We really don't want to expand conflict. Sending the exact opposite message, like
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they're just asking, Lou, for others to be more aggressive, coming after the elements of U.S.
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foreign policy, because the perception is nobody's going to do anything seriously to push back against
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any aggression by a third power. Let me go to what you said earlier about American altruism. It's
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sort of interesting to hear you talk about the American empire and its altruism at the same time.
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We've never had an empire, and we frankly have not been altruistic. Altruism sometimes is the sort of,
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forgive me, Tony, but when you strike a bad bargain and you lose, I guess a great defense is to say
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that's altruistic of me to have turned over whatever that value was. Yes, that's true.
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And the reality is, we have been, our Wall Street has been acting with immense greed and capitalist
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fervor to get into China. And they've had their heads handed to them. Right now, we've watched an
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immense transfer of capital, and I'm talking by the trillions of dollars, into China. We have permitted
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through the investment of corporations, whether they be Tesla, General Motors, whatever the
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manufacturing that has gone into China out of the global 1000 from the United States is now,
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it was just used as a lever by the communist Chinese to leapfrog 20 years of development,
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design, intellectual property creation. I mean, they are now on a parody with us because they have
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stolen, and we have gifted them decades worth of intellectual capital that they won't have to
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invest. Do you agree, Gordon? Oh, absolutely. And that really has been the nature of our relationship
00:22:07.140
with China. We have allowed China to corrupt our elites, to steal our intellectual property,
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to kill Americans with COVID-19 and with fentanyl, and the list goes on and on. And the United States,
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going back to Tony's point about altruism, you know, the United States, I agree, does not have
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an empire. I mean, at the end of World War II, we were the strongest nation in history. And yet what
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we chose to do was develop a rules-based system. Well, China came along. After the end of the Cold
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War, people were saying, oh, you know, we'll integrate China into this system. And after that,
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we just ignored continuing bad behavior on the part of the Chinese. And as we ignored that bad
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behavior, you know, Chinese leaders said, well, look, you know, the Americans aren't enforcing
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their norms. So they're not enforcing their own laws in the United States. So what the Chinese decided
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to do was to engage in even worse behavior. So over the course of decades, we taught Chinese leaders
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to be more aggressive, to be more belligerent, to be more malicious. So this is the greatest failure
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in American diplomatic history is our relations with China after the Cold War.
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Tony, we'll get your response to that. We'll take a quick break here. We're talking with Gordon Chang
00:23:26.300
and Tony Schaefer, and we'll be right back. We're back now talking with Gordon Chang and Tony Schaefer.
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Tony, before the break, Gordon said Biden allowing China to walk all over us the way they have
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has been the greatest failure in American diplomatic history. Your thoughts?
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I agree with both of you. We are not an empire. I'm strongly in agreement. What I'm saying is
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FDR made the point of ending the British dominance their empire. I mean, that was part of his objective
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during World War II. And to Gordon's point, we set up a rules-based system instead of us becoming an
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empire. What I'm trying to say is we have jeopardized that framework, which has allowed
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the world to trade and act freely. And I don't dispute what you're saying about businesses trying
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to go into China. But to Gordon's point, they've had their lunch eaten over and over again. We've
00:24:20.100
gained nothing. Bill Gertz even did a book a few years ago called Betrayal, where he talked about the
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Chinese essentially being given by U.S. companies MIRV, multiple independent reentry vehicle
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technology to improve their nuclear weapon arsenal. So we've given them everything. That's not
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altruism, it's stupidity. I'm just saying that we have, for the most part, have set up a system which
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actually worked to keep the world neutral, and the Chinese are doing everything they can to undermine
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Yeah, and I think there's also a great danger in the thinking of the foreign policy establishment
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that somehow they still have the same power, position, leverage, and role that they possessed
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in 1991 as the Soviet Union collapsed, the Cold War ended, patting themselves on the back for what was
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really a failure of the system, the Marxist system, the communist system of the Soviet Union.
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What is interesting right now is your point, to your point about the currencies, the reserve currency,
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and the role of the dollar in this economy. The fact of the matter is we don't have very bright people
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managing this economy. We don't have any association between political strategies,
00:25:45.260
geopolitical strategies, national strategies in this country, and economic policies,
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and if you will, strategies as well. There is, I have not heard one economic leader in this country.
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I'm talking about bankers, I'm talking about the permanent bureaucracy, whomever,
00:26:03.000
or certainly academia is basically a silent group of institutions now because they have no
00:26:08.920
social critics or forward thinkers, it seems, emanating from any discipline of the social
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sciences. So I don't know how we judge what is happening here because we really are, as we watch
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these other power centers, as you were laying out, be constructed and the axis of China and Russia
00:26:30.120
be bolstered. The United States is divided and becoming more so. The divide between the elites
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and the people, as a populist, I can say these things, the elites and the rest of America,
00:26:49.820
the hollowing out of our most important institutions. And I mean in that business and academia.
00:26:59.160
We are not seeing a great renaissance of intellectual energy and innovation. We are right now living on
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the inertia of what was the, what looks to be right now, the peak point in American ingenuity,
00:27:18.340
innovation, and construction of a powerhouse economically.
00:27:24.760
Yes, Lou, you're absolutely right about that. You know, just take, for instance, the guy who's now
00:27:30.600
sitting in the Oval Office. He thought that he could spend trillions and trillions of dollars that
00:27:35.680
we don't have actually borrowing from the rest of the world and that it would not have any impact on
00:27:42.700
prices. And then you have this big run-up inflation and Biden's bank regulators who are worried about
00:27:48.920
climate change rules that the banks are following, didn't even think about the diminution in the bond
00:27:55.240
values because of inflation. You know, this is, this is, this is third grade economics. This is not
00:28:02.180
even economics 101. Any, any third grader can tell you this makes no sense whatsoever. And yet you have
00:28:09.260
the elites, as you say, they are not talking about this. If we want to talk about intellectual
00:28:15.520
advance in America, the last one we had was America first. And that was the work of you and
00:28:23.280
someone named Donald John Trump, who actually thought this situation wasn't working, had to be
00:28:30.380
changed. And, and clearly, you know, you have a Biden who's repudiated those views, but I believe that
00:28:36.560
in 2024, the American people are going to sit up and say, this ain't working. We got to go back to
00:28:43.040
something that does work. And I think we're going to see a change in this country. And it's a change
00:28:48.160
that you've been leading Lou. So thank you so much. Well, thank you for the credit, which, you know,
00:28:53.880
I, I deserve a whole, whole and entirely, of course, thank you. But the fact is I'm going to give a little
00:29:01.580
credit to president Trump, if I may, out of just all modesty in terms of America first and make America
00:29:09.120
great. He has been a president, the likes of which we haven't seen, I really believe still,
00:29:13.980
because of this president, we have a chance for this to be the Trump century and not that of Xi
00:29:18.680
Jinping or Vladimir Putin. I want to go to your point, Tony, again, on, on, on the finances of it
00:29:26.500
all, the global finances of it all. We're looking at Honduras, we're looking at Kenya, Brazil,
00:29:31.900
Turkey in one way or another, stepping back from the dollar, embracing the Chinese rather than
00:29:38.380
in the instance, for example, Honduras, turning its back on Taiwan, reaching toward Beijing.
00:29:46.440
This is seems to be the attitude across most of this hemisphere. And many people are not paying
00:29:52.780
attention to the fact that in this hemisphere, which once was moving decidedly democratically,
00:29:58.180
is now moved decidedly authoritarian and communist in point of fact. We are not taking care of business
00:30:08.660
on any continent in any direction. We don't even know what the hell the Canadians are doing,
00:30:13.700
let alone what is happening in Africa, what is happening in the Middle East. We have been out
00:30:20.100
our foreign policy team in this administration. I won't give all of the credit or blame to Biden,
00:30:27.340
because I think he's sufficiently impaired that he doesn't even know what we're talking about.
00:30:31.920
But the reality is this team is they just simply seem to be out of touch. They don't seem to be
00:30:38.920
interested in getting the idea of thinking about shuttle diplomacy. I mean, these people won't even
00:30:47.200
think about simply stepping off the curb to find out what's going on, let alone shuttle diplomacy. What
00:30:53.660
is wrong with this innervated administration that leaves borders wide open, does business with the
00:31:00.700
cartels openly, and no one, no leading, no leader from any quarter of American society or the economy
00:31:10.680
To circle the square root of what Gordon just said about you and President Trump,
00:31:15.340
that's the key. You and President Trump recognize the link between economic success and national
00:31:20.140
security. No other leader speaks in those terms. No other leader do I know. And look, I've dealt with
00:31:27.220
you a long time, sir. I respect you. And I appreciate the fact that you think these things through and
00:31:31.860
speak clearly on it. And that's what we lack now. We don't have someone who can link these things
00:31:36.640
together and say everything is connected. And everything, as Gordon just said, is something
00:31:42.300
we're not paying attention to. The pandemic, no response adequate regarding the fact that China
00:31:47.000
was responsible for it, that we funded it, and nothing's going to be done at this point. The idea
00:31:52.360
that somehow fentanyl is acceptable. It's a weapon of mass destruction being ferried through Latin
00:31:59.020
America into our countries. The Chinese have invested in soft power. Liu, they bought the best politicians
00:32:04.480
on the planet over and over in all these third world countries, and they bought Joe Biden, too.
00:32:08.820
So they've made a wide series of investments with their money. And then to the dollar. Look, every time
00:32:14.760
you see our Treasury Secretary stand up and basically print money, that destroys the prestige of the
00:32:21.400
dollar and weakens the actual economic value of what every American holds. The idea that your 401k,
00:32:27.880
my 401k has been diminished in power and value because of the government deciding to spend money
00:32:33.600
because of the crises they create. People watch that besides the Americans. Unfortunately,
00:32:38.480
American people don't see the damage being done to their own economic interests. And that's where I
00:32:42.580
think I really hope you and President Trump can help educate people on how dangerous the situation is
00:32:50.340
regarding the complete lack of understanding how these things are all linked in the world stage and
00:32:56.440
how we must focus on economic success. And that must be linked to our national security.
00:33:00.780
Well said. And let me let me reach toward the end of this interview. And when I say we always give
00:33:11.060
our guests, as you gentlemen know, the last word. So I'm going to if you would, Gordon, let's let's
00:33:17.560
begin with your concluding thoughts, then yours, Tony. And I want to just say to both of you, thanks so much
00:33:23.200
for being with us and offering your your insights and and sharing your knowledge.
00:33:29.480
Well, thank you, Lou. And I think the most important thing is that
00:33:32.760
Biden and the American elites have got to recognize that the world is fundamentally changing.
00:33:39.480
It's becoming a hostile place. China and Russia are not competitors. They're even worse than
00:33:46.420
adversaries. They are enemies. Xi Jinping talks about trying to impose China's imperial era system,
00:33:52.840
where Chinese emperors believe that they not only had the mandate of heaven to rule Tien Xia
00:33:58.300
all under heaven, but that heaven actually compelled them to do so. And since 2017, Chinese officials have
00:34:06.020
been talking about the moon and Mars as sovereign Chinese territory. So we got to recognize the
00:34:11.040
fundamental nature of the challenge to the United States, to our values that the Chinese Communist
00:34:16.740
Party views the U.S. as an existential threat, not because of anything we say or do, but because
00:34:23.400
of who we are and our values. And so we have to know that this is the fight of our lifetimes and
00:34:30.120
that China is not going to give us a second chance. Tony. Yeah, Lou. I was on the Trump transition team
00:34:38.480
back in 2016. And one of the one of my contacts was General Milley, Mark Milley. He was the then
00:34:48.540
chief of staff of the army. We sat in his office and he lectured me on the need to understand that
00:34:54.740
based on his reading of Chinese doctrine and speaking to Chinese generals, that their objective,
00:35:01.120
that is the Chinese have the military objective of dominating the Pacific Rim.
00:35:05.360
That's what he said to me. And I have no doubt that that's what the Chinese told him,
00:35:11.040
that that is what they've said within their doctrine and their intention. That is something
00:35:15.120
that to me is indisputable. And yet somehow, because we have Joe Biden as president, Mark Milley seems to
00:35:22.520
have lost his interest in what is clearly a threat. As Gordon said, these are enemies.
00:35:29.300
They've said there are enemies. They are just patient. They're not going to do a blitzkrieg
00:35:33.840
and upend everything if they think they can use economic power, fifth generation warfare is what
00:35:40.020
I call it, as a means of influencing us and trying to defeat us before we have to go to war. But
00:35:44.720
it's no doubt that the military, the Pentagon understands what's coming. What I find unacceptable,
00:35:50.920
and I think Gordon would share this with me, is the fact that we have the arrogance of the momentum
00:35:57.160
of the system somehow believing those in charge of it, believing that somehow the momentum of our
00:36:02.660
past success is going to get us into the future. It's not. And I think that's what's most dangerous
00:36:07.560
is people right now in these positions of power and authority are completely oblivious to the danger
00:36:13.420
which we now face. And that's what I hope we can change in 2024.
00:36:17.160
Well, that danger is intensifying, it seems, with every passing week. And we thank you very much,
00:36:26.340
gentlemen, for being with us here on The Great America Show to contemplate what, for some,
00:36:31.600
I hope none of them in the Pentagon, to contemplate what is the unthinkable, and that is conflict
00:36:38.340
on a global scale with the major powers, because that does seem to be the subtext of what is emanating
00:36:46.280
from both capitalists, Moscow and Beijing. Gordon Chang, Tony Schaefer, Great Americans both,
00:36:53.280
that's all for us today. We hope you have a great weekend. Please join us here Monday when our guest
00:36:58.580
will be former NSA intelligence analyst and whistleblower Russ Tice. We'll continue our weekly
00:37:05.480
discussion with Russ, a discussion you don't want to miss. Till then, thanks, God bless you, and God bless America.