FR. FRANK PAVONE SAYS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN UPHEAVAL OVER THE CONFLICT BETWEEN PRO-LIFE AND PRO-ABORTION
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Summary
On today's show, Lou Dobbs is joined by Father Frank Pavone, who was recently defrocked by the Vatican for what they called "persistent disobedience" to Church doctrine. He explains why this is a symptom of a larger problem within the Catholic Church, which is that pro-life Catholics and other Catholics find it hard to get their minds around the teachings of the Church.
Transcript
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Hello, everybody. I'm Lou Dobbs, and Merry Christmas, everybody. Happy holidays. Happy New
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Year. Welcome to The Great America Show, and it is great to have you with us. Hope you didn't miss
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the festivities at the White House when Ukraine's Zelensky went there to meet with America's Biden,
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both comedians of a sort, and both have very expensive tastes. Biden, of course, spending
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trillions of dollars like it wasn't his money. But wait, it isn't his money. It's our money.
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It's taxpayer money, and that would be amusing if you and I weren't the ones paying taxes.
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And Biden's given Zelensky $110 billion to fight Putin. $110 billion. And Zelensky doesn't just
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ask Biden for money. He demands that money, and lots of it. You'd think Zelensky had some dark,
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dark dirt on Biden to talk that way. And Biden, well, he pays up. So there you are,
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again, with our money. Donald Trump Jr. calls Zelensky a, quote, ungrateful international
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welfare queen. Humor, they say, is built on truth. And wow, the Marxist left went berserk
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on Don Jr. They even researched the expression welfare queen and tied it to the great Ronald
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Reagan, which in left land is sure to agitate the Marxist darlings into an elevated level of
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derangement. And deranged they were. And get ready for a whopper of a storm, folks. The White House
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telling 26 governors the impending super blizzard called a bomb cyclone that's about to cross much of
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the country could become life-threatening. The president saying, pick up, the president saying
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helpfully that it's, quote, not like a snow day. No, Mr. President, it certainly doesn't sound like it.
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To be frank, when Biden understates things, it makes me a little nervous. So be careful if you
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have to travel. It sounds like it could be a mess on the roads and in the air through Christmas.
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We're now about a week and a half from the Republicans taking over the House of Representatives.
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Still uncertain who will be Speaker of the House, but I'm absolutely certain if the outcome is the
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status quo, unreformed, and the same old blather from the same old GOP, we'll be in for lean times
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indeed. There's just too much corruption, too much cronyism, too little original thought and energy
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in the grand old party leadership to successfully defend the republic, truth, justice, and our
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American way of life. No hyperbole, just the reality of an existential moment in our history
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in the here and now. And joining us today, a great patriot and also an important, very important voice
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for the right-to-life movement in America and indeed around the world. Our guest today is Father Frank
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Pavone. He's just been defrocked by the Vatican for what they called, quote, persistent disobedience,
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as he is, in point of fact, supporting church doctrine and following the sanctity of life
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preachings of the gospel. Father, I just want to say thanks so much for being with us.
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And I have to say, at the outset, Merry Christmas!
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Merry Christmas, Lou! It's a pleasure to be with you.
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And this season is in rich, some might say even dark contrast, to all the events that are taking
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place in Washington, D.C., or indeed in Rome. We're a troubled world, and we're a troubled nation.
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And I'd like to move, if we may, to your troubles, and that is effectively the sanctioning
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by the pope. Explain to us what all of that means.
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It means there's a cancel culture in the church. It means that just like we see in our government,
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attacks launched against President Trump, for example, by the weaponizing of procedures
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and institutions that otherwise have a legitimate purpose, but are being used against political
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enemies. This is happening also within the Catholic Church. We see that the battle between pro-life and
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pro-abortion is also within the church. And this is what is the bigger picture. Sometimes people are
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seeing this story, oh, the pope has said I'm dismissed for the priesthood. Okay, but that's
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not just a story about me. This is the symptom of a problem that a lot of Catholics and other
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Christians and other citizens find it really hard to get their minds around, because they presume
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the church must be united. And my group, Priests for Life, the most common question, Lou, that I get
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is, well, isn't every priest for life? And my response is, well, we just helped them to say so.
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So even within the church, there is this tension, and that's what my particular case now is bringing
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to light more and more. Indeed it is. And the right to life is, to me, a hallmark of the Catholic
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religion, a hallmark of the teachings of the church for centuries. And almost in stealth,
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the church, the leadership of the church has moved away from those teachings, and to the point where
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you, because you are pro-life and speak out as such, which is within the belief system of the church,
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it boggles a mind of, I'm a Christian, but not a Catholic. I can't comprehend that kind of dissonance
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in a structure that is as old, a traditional, and just, one would think, vibrant with discussion
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on issues, rather than wanting to stultify or utterly suppress thinking like yours.
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Well, let me try to clarify it a little bit. First of all, what has just happened with this
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notification from the Vatican is the result of our 21 years, where we've had to, I've been doing the
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ministry full-time for 30 years, but for the last 21, I've had to actually fight within the Catholic
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church for the right to keep doing it. And what is causing this? Not so much a direct denial of the
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teaching, but it's the politics of it. Priests for Life has become the largest and most influential
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pro-life group within the Catholic community, and the bishops feel, some bishops feel threatened by
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that. Oh, they're not controlling, you know, what we're doing, what we're saying, even though
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everything we're saying and doing is in line with the church, they're not in control. They're not in
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control of our funding, which just comes from ordinary donors. They're not in control of our
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messaging. And so some of them are, and what they're really uncomfortable about is this. Okay, so we know
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the church's teaching on abortion is clear, but then I come along and I say, well, wait a minute,
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we've got now a president who claims to be Catholic, we've got a speaker of the house who
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claims to be Catholic, and no two people in America are doing more to make sure that more
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babies get killed than those two. Aren't we in the church supposed to be more vocal about this?
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It seems to me when the church steps up and challenges people like that, that's not the church
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being political, that's the church being the church. And a lot of Catholics will rise up, and not
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just Catholics, but Christians across the body of Christ. They will rise up when they hear me say
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that, and they will say, amen, this is exactly the kind of leadership we need. And that, Lou, is
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getting some of the bishops very, very nervous, because they're allied with Democrats. And this is
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part of the problem that I'm running up against.
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And have been running up against for better than two decades, we learned. You essentially, I was going
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to say essentially, you were defrocked by the Vatican's belief that you were in, quote-unquote,
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persistent disobedience. So as an outsider looking into the church, I ask, well, wait a minute,
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the church is pro-life. Abortion is a sin, is it not?
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Yeah, well, let me give you an example of this. The only time that the bishops can identify
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me having not just carried out exactly what they've asked me to do, because I have done so as part of
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the life of a priest, you know, you obey your bishop, is when they have tried, without reason,
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without explanation, without justification, they've tried to get me to stop doing this pro-life work.
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Now, here's, to add to the cognitive dissonance here, we're working in union with the pope.
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What I mean is, Priests for Life is actually, on a very practical level, assisting Pope Francis'
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mission to the United Nations when the United Nations deals with abortion. Priests for Life is
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like right in there with them, assisting the Holy See mission. We are assisting the Secretary of State
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at the Vatican. We just, a few days ago, finished helping to organize a conference at which the
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Secretary of State spoke of Catholic, non-governmental organizations. It's like, we run the largest
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ministry in the church for healing after abortion, a key priority of Pope Francis. And I've talked with
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Pope Francis four or five times, personally, and he's encouraged my work. So like, how in the world
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now does he issue a decree saying you can't even be a priest? It's a bundle of contradictions. So it
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doesn't so much show them against me, as it shows them against themselves. There's a serious division
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among the cardinals, among the bishops, about how are we going to deal with this issue of abortion.
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And this is what, they can't seem to get their own story straight.
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Well, there's a lot of confusion here. And most of the confusion I have, I will speak just in turn,
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let's leave this at the secular level, me speaking as a professional communicator,
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the Vatican is very confusing. The Pope is confusing. And if you're in persistent disobedience
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for obeying your beliefs and that of the preachings of the church, I find the disobedience to be
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systemic within the church itself, and in particular, the Vatican.
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Well, I'm going to give an example here that's really going to, well, it's going to surprise
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some people, it's going to put this whole problem in perspective. It's my bishop who has been
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disobedient. And I may give you the example of what I'm saying. Back about a decade ago, he
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said to me, I was in the midst of, as many of our viewers know, traveling around, I make four or five
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trips a week on this pro-life mission across America, been doing it for 30 years. And he
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abruptly says publicly, you've got to come back to the diocese of Amarillo. I want you back here
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for a period of prayer and reflection. So I have concerns, you know. Okay, so I obeyed, I went there,
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right? And I appealed, however, to the Vatican. I said, listen, there's no, I haven't done anything
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wrong. There's no reason to restrict my ministry, but the bishop has restricted my ministry. Well,
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a few months went by, Lou, ultimately the Vatican ruled in my favor. And they said to the bishop,
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let Fr. Frank do his pro-life work, as we're discussing right now. It's good work, it's the
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work of the church, it's saving lives, it's healing wounds. You know what the bishop said to me? He
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said, the Vatican told me I could not restore you to your pro-life work. But the bishop, they told me
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that I was restored to my pro-life work. He said, no, no, no, this particular archbishop told me no.
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So I flew to Rome to ask that archbishop one question. Did you say I couldn't do this work?
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And you know what he told me? He said, no, I did not say you couldn't do it. I told your bishop to
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be generous in giving you permission to do this work. And now I get accused of disobedience. It's
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the bishop who wasn't following the instructions of the Vatican. And I mean, this is just, again,
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I've been dealing with this. I consider this an abuse of authority. I respect authority. I don't
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respect the abuse of authority. And we're just simply trying to save lives and heal minds and
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hearts and elect pro-life candidates. But this is kind of a good example of what I've been dealing
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with. When the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and sent the issue of abortion to the states,
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for each state to make that political decision about what their laws would be, what they would
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permit, what they would not, that is fundamental to our federalist system of government. And it marks
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such an advance against the tyranny of relativism in law and in our politics and our society in the
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United States. Yes. At the same time, the Bible says it does not permit abortion. It just does not.
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And to hear the church say it's persistent disobedience on your part, when in point of fact,
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there is something afoot within the Vatican that makes no sense at all. When an archbishop is telling
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a bishop to do something and that bishop is the one who is being disobedient, there's a mess. And when
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the church itself can't acknowledge that it's following the scripture of the Holy Bible,
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the church has to be in upheaval. It's in upheaval. I can't tell you how many messages I've been getting
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these days from distraught Catholics and evangelicals, Protestants, and, Lou, from atheists.
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Some of our audience might be familiar with this new group, the Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising,
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a bunch of left-leaning feminists, Democrats, atheists, agnostics, LGBTQ. But these are friends of
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mine. These are allies of mine. These are colleagues of mine. They've been in my office in strategy
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meetings. And they're giving me more support than some of these bishops are. It is truly,
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in some ways, if you take the tragedy out of the whole thing, it's truly amusing. But that's the
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thing about the pro-life movement. And this is one of the reasons we've come to the point where Roe v.
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Wade has been reversed. Because this is a movement that is not called together by the Pope. It's not
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called together by any religious leader. It's not called together by any political leader,
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even the best that we've had. And we have had the best in President Trump in terms of so many things,
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but including pro-life. And yet the pro-life movement does not arise from the edict of a
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leader. It arises from our very humanity. People sitting around their kitchen table, around their
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living room, realizing and talking about the fact that babies are being killed, and responding to the
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basic human instinct, we have to protect our children. And then responding to the basic
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Christian instinct, that whatever we do to the least of our brothers, we do to Christ,
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this is the movement. Now, this is why the movement is so diverse, because it's based on
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something so fundamental and common as our humanity. And this is why the movement can't be stopped.
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It does not start by a religious leader, and it can't be stopped by a religious leader. So when
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something like this happens, they take one of the most visible pro-life leaders and say,
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you know, you can't be a priest, they are creating such a scandal and such a disillusionment. But
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that's not going to stop the people from supporting the kind of work we're doing, being
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involved in the pro-life movement. And so this is the moment at which we are right now. And I hope that
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the reaction that has been generated here, and that I see only as growing, will make some of these
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leaders think twice about what's happened. Well, you are also confronting the Council of Bishops,
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the Catholic Charities, that are immensely political. And I'm not talking about merely
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in discussion. We're talking about some of the most effective and active arms of the Church
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in those two organizations aligned against our laws and our national security and sovereignty because
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they support a wide open border. They support the cartels, in point of fact, because they are the ones
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who are now in control of the border in large measure because of many of the activities of the
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NGOs, the Catholic Charities, the National Council of Bishops, who are supportive of illegal immigration
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in direct contravention of American law and direct contravention of our Constitution and the
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constitutional responsibilities of our political leaders. I mean, this gets inordinately complex.
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And most people can't even begin to comprehend the huge, the mammoth, massive involvement of the
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Church in that issue of that southern border. Now, there are other forces at work and just as
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powerful, but it's extraordinary what the Church has done here as well, isn't it?
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And you know, Lou, it's also, besides everything you just said in contradiction to the American
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Constitution and laws, it's also in contradiction to the Catholic Catechism. Because if we look in the
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catechism at the section that deals with immigration, it's not simply an assertion, oh, these are our
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brothers and sisters, we have to welcome them. No, it's an assertion that those who seek to come into
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another country have to respect its values and traditions and have to obey its laws. That section
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on immigration and the catechism likewise affirms that the duty of the welcoming country is limited. It's common
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sense that it's limited, because they first and foremost, that nation has to take care of the people
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already within its borders, and then have a system of welcoming people that makes sense for the citizens who are
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already there and for the ones that want to come, become citizens, that you can't give what you don't
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have. You have to do this in a way that makes sense, and therefore that is orderly and is limited,
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frankly, is limited. You can't be everything to everybody. So those within the Church and those
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who use religious language, Lou, to cover open border philosophies, you know, let's just dress it up in
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religious language, and people will be persuaded, oh, they're all our brothers and sisters, let's
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welcome them. No, it's not that simple, even according to the catechism.
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It is, as you say, not that simple. When we are watching all the dissent folding, right now we're
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watching the largest gatherings of illegal immigrants in northern Mexico preparing to cross our borders when
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the so-called Title 42 is rescinded by President Biden if the Supreme Court does not intervene,
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and I'm actually beginning to become somewhat optimistic that they just might, and some rationality
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might actually appear in judicial proceedings in this country. But we're watching a country that is,
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in my opinion, in an existential moment of our history. And one of the worst moments,
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of course, is always in that description. It would be the here and now, and we're at the here and now.
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I truly believe that we have forces at work. The Marxist Dems run the Democratic Party.
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The Marxist Dems are the masters of this puppet president. We are watching the deep state and the
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Marxist Dems take control of the Department of Justice. The FBI, we're witnessing it. Of course,
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they don't want us to believe our lying eyes as we witness all of this and read all of this. But
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nowhere is there, has there been, in recent history certainly, a more clear-cut case of evil versus
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good. And so there is, in all of this, that blessing, which is more Americans now understand
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that the forces of evil are arrayed against this great nation. Your thoughts?
00:21:10.400
Yeah. You know, one of the reasons that, I mean, we did much better in the midterms than
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might meet the eye. And, you know, as you know, you analyze it a little bit and you see that
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the momentum is on our side. But the reason we didn't do even better, as so many had predicted,
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is that not enough citizens have, it hasn't gotten bad enough yet for enough of the citizens.
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And unfortunately, it's going to get worse. And we have to hope that those who are putting these
00:21:39.940
people, these Democrats into power, will realize that once it hits home a little bit more than it
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is so far, that they realize the problems they're bringing upon themselves by electing these people
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who are causing the problems. And in that context, why and how should the church be neutral when,
00:21:57.800
as you accurately say, we're dealing with good and evil? We're no longer dealing with
00:22:03.620
ordinary political divisions. There was a time in our American history where, you know,
00:22:07.920
the differences between the Republicans and Democrats were, well, you know, we're all pursuing
00:22:11.520
the same goal. We've got the same principles. We believe in freedom. We believe in America.
00:22:16.460
We just have different ideas of how to get there. Okay, well, have a debate. And, you know,
00:22:20.640
trial and error, and you try a policy, it doesn't work, you can change the policy.
00:22:24.620
But now it's not that. It's not just a debate about different policies. This is a conflict over
00:22:31.480
fundamental principles. Such a difference between those two things. Policies, yes. Well, how do we
00:22:37.600
reduce crime? Well, I have this idea, you have that idea. But now it's like at the level of principle,
00:22:44.100
it's like, well, should we reduce crime? Is crime really a bad thing? You know, how do we advance
00:22:48.600
freedom? Well, now it's at the issue of, well, do we even believe in freedom? How do we protect
00:22:53.520
America? Do we even want to protect America? So the difference is on the level of principles,
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of course, most fundamental of which is the issue I'm dealing with, are we going to protect human
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life? Because that right, if that right isn't secure, you can't have any of the other rights.
00:23:08.100
And for the church, there's an argument to be made that when it comes to political discrepancies
00:23:15.440
or affiliations per se, yes, the church is neutral. The church has a religious mission,
00:23:21.700
not a political one. We give witness to the kingdom of God, not a political party. And our platform is
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not the Democrat or Republican platform. It's the platform of Jesus Christ and his gospel. Fair enough.
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But what if a political party is directly attacking that gospel, denying the freedom of the church,
00:23:41.380
denying the role of God in public life, attacking human life? You can't be neutral anymore. And I
00:23:48.160
think, Lou, that this is part of what the church is wrestling with and somewhat reflected, you know,
00:23:57.300
on a small scale, in my particular case that I'm facing right now. The church is wrestling with this.
00:24:05.260
How, when a political party is so directly attacking the principles of the church,
00:24:13.000
do we remain neutral? How do we remain neutral? Or how do we maintain our own identity while
00:24:19.180
maintaining our friendships within the party that has gone astray?
00:24:22.920
Yeah. As I said, I'm a Christian, I'm a Protestant, and I am one of those people who want,
00:24:31.720
I want religion in the public square. I want it mightily. And it's one of the things I cheered,
00:24:37.920
one of the many things I cheered about President Trump is he returned. People, many people just do
00:24:43.300
not, I mean, I know you're aware, but he played an instrumental role in bringing the church back to the
00:24:51.140
public square, much to the discomfort of the left and to the, to atheists and to, you know, the Marxist
00:24:58.820
left, which are by definition, atheists. Right. And they are the enemy. This is not just a fifth
00:25:06.420
column within the United States that we're talking about. This is the march of Marxism into American
00:25:14.660
society as we never dreamed possible. Not even 10 years ago, we would have said that it's impossible
00:25:21.140
that this would, this would occur. It's here. The threat is now the danger is present. And, you know,
00:25:29.680
I just go ahead, please. You're what you're saying here is reminding me of something Marco Rubio said
00:25:36.540
not long ago in a speech. He said, look, this is a battle between good and evil. And it's also a battle
00:25:41.560
between common sense and insanity. And what this, this, this left is, is, is, is displaying today
00:25:50.640
really is insanity. You know, I make a point in my, in my talks that why is it today that we can't say
00:25:57.700
a man is a man or a woman is a woman? Maybe it's because for 50 years, we've been saying a baby's not
00:26:03.820
a baby. When we brought portion on demand into America and pretended that we didn't know if that
00:26:10.460
was a baby, that was the break with reality. That was the break with biology. People say, oh,
00:26:15.480
well, you know, if you're a man, that that's, that's genetics. It's biological truth. Yes,
00:26:20.420
it is. It's just as much biological truth as that the baby in the womb is a baby right from
00:26:25.380
conception. And it's like, oh no, if we can pretend that that's not true, then saying a man is not a
00:26:32.240
man or a woman is not a woman or whatever you are, whatever you choose to be is the same error as
00:26:38.200
that's a baby. Only if you choose to accept it. And, and this is, we've got to stop breaking
00:26:43.780
with reality because after a while, um, well, the only solution, uh, Lou, is that you hit up against
00:26:49.580
the brick wall. Uh, I believe in the dead end rule. If you go down a dead end road and you don't look at
00:26:54.520
this, you don't pay attention to the signs that say it's a dead end, you will soon learn by personal
00:26:59.040
experience that it's a dead end. Hopefully you won't fall off a cliff, but if you survive, you turn around,
00:27:04.700
you walk the other way, and then you become the living sign that that's not the right way to go.
00:27:11.400
Now we're seeing that with abortion. We have the silent no more campaign where those who've actually
00:27:16.380
done it are coming back saying, Hey, that hurt. That was bad. We're going to see this more and
00:27:21.640
more with the transgender. We already see examples of it, of course, but the gay lifestyle, LGBTQ and
00:27:27.080
all this stuff, it's going to start. It is hurting people really bad. Give it a few more years,
00:27:33.420
give it a decade or two, and there's going to be a massive, massive pain from hitting up against
00:27:39.900
that brick wall, brick wall of human nature, brick wall of just the truth that is written into our
00:27:45.380
human nature as the scriptures tell us. So, um, that's, um, uh, the, the sooner we, we all realize
00:27:52.660
that the better off we'll be. I think that's a wonderful point. And I, I had not considered that.
00:27:58.400
I, I, the idea that we could deny, uh, science, uh, in describing life, particularly in, as it begins
00:28:07.840
in the womb, uh, if we could pretend that that embryo is not a baby, uh, is not, uh, with, with the first
00:28:16.680
spark of life living, uh, we can, uh, there is nothing we can't, uh, wish away, uh, disassociate
00:28:24.460
with, uh, or, or deny. I think that's a wonderful point. And I, and it just, it, it, it cuts very
00:28:31.880
close to the bone. So it has to be, uh, I think absolutely true. Uh, I, I think it's interesting
00:28:38.960
that we wanted to, our, our Marxist leaders wanted us to believe in the science, uh, when,
00:28:45.060
when COVID was, uh, raging through the society, uh, but then they denied the science that showed
00:28:52.220
that what they were doing was ineffective and was not what they had promised. Uh, they do so
00:28:58.120
when it comes to the right to life, uh, and being, uh, anti-abortion in this country. They try to change
00:29:06.900
the language as they always do. Uh, if you can change the language, you can change the thought,
00:29:11.900
you change the thought, and you change the position. Uh, I, I, I really have enjoyed talking
00:29:17.220
with you. I, I just, you're a fascinating fellow and I wish you all the very best. Uh, what are your
00:29:25.360
immediate plans? Uh, well, we are, in terms of my situation, you know, what the Pope does, the Pope
00:29:31.200
can undo. And, uh, we're, we're asking Pope Francis to just reconsider reinstating my, my priestly,
00:29:38.260
uh, faculties, but that aside, our plans now are, we're working, as you said, with the abortion issue
00:29:44.760
in the States. Now priests for life is, uh, is, is, is just mobilizing people in every one of the
00:29:50.320
States. We invite everybody to get involved with our work at end abortion.us. And, and we've got,
00:29:55.840
we've got great plans for us to see in 2023, more pro-life laws than ever compassionate laws,
00:30:02.940
helping both the baby and that mom and dad. Uh, and we just look forward to, uh, a lot of great
00:30:08.120
progress in the new year. Father, if I may, we always give our guests the last word. Uh, I'm
00:30:14.660
wondering in the spirit of the season, we could ask you, uh, to share with us, uh, your, your Christmas
00:30:21.260
message. Yes. Uh, Christmas really is, uh, at the heart of our system of government because in the
00:30:30.760
pagan governments, uh, law came from the mouth of the King and the input, and they didn't have any
00:30:38.040
appeal against it. Um, Christ came at Christmas and it's not just the birth of the baby in the manger.
00:30:44.780
It's the birth of the baby in us. We become sons and daughters of God. And if we're sons and daughters
00:30:50.320
of God, our voice matters. And because our voice matters, our vote matters. And we have a
00:30:55.640
representative form of government now where the sovereignty, and this is the greatness of America,
00:31:00.360
the sovereignty resides in the people. We were the first ones to say, Hey, forget about sovereignty
00:31:05.860
in the King it's in the people. And then we will consent to give individuals certain powers in
00:31:12.460
government. This really is rooted in Christmas. This really is rooted in the coming of the child who
00:31:18.260
makes us children of God. So Merry Christmas to everyone. And let's live out that new life that
00:31:23.560
Christ gives us by living out our citizenship more ardently than, uh, than ever before.
00:31:31.180
A wonderful message indeed. Father, we thank you very much for being with us here. Uh, we wish you a
00:31:36.940
Merry Christmas. We wish you a success and victory in all that, uh, all the challenges you're facing right
00:31:44.180
now. We appreciate everything you're doing for this great country as well. Thank you, Father.
00:31:49.520
Thanks Lou. Thank you. God bless you. Father, Frank Pavone. Thanks for being with us. Thank you
00:31:55.100
everybody for listening in. And I wish you a Merry Christmas. Please follow me on Twitter and truth
00:32:00.940
social at Lou Dobbs. That's at Lou Dobbs on Twitter and truth social. Our guest Monday is Senator Marsha
00:32:08.840
Blackburn. We'll be talking about her work to have the U S military abandoned those mandated
00:32:16.300
vaccinations for our troops. One of the important contributions of a Senator who makes a real
00:32:23.060
difference in Washington, DC. That's Marsha Blackburn. Please join us Monday till then. God bless you