JAMES O’KEEFE ON DEEP DEMOCRAT CORRUPTION & EPSTEIN
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Summary
The need for independent, objective journalism has never been greater. Even as the left in America has moved further left and more committed to ever larger government and authoritarianism throughout our society, it brings us to the subject of James O'Keefe, the leader of Project Veritas, an organization dedicated to truth in America, particularly American politics, and investigative journalism. He is a young man who has been committed to journalism for most of his life. You know him primarily from his exploits as a video journalist.
Transcript
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Great America Podcast with Lou Dobbs,
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always in the fight for truth, justice, and yes, our American way of life.
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And now, here he is, the Peabody award-winning voice of truth, the great Lou Dobbs.
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Hello, everybody. Great to have you with us for this edition of the Great America Show,
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dedicated to truth, justice, and the American way. Interesting times in which we live,
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the need for independent, objective journalism has never been greater.
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Even the left in America has moved further left and far more committed to ever larger government
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and authoritarianism throughout our society. It brings us to the subject of one James O'Keefe.
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He's the leader of Project Veritas, an organization dedicated to truth in America, particularly
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American politics, investigative journalist. He is a young man who's been committed to journalism
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for most of his life. You know him primarily from his exploits as a video journalist, undercover
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journalism. His brand of journalism has produced great stories and great public service. And by the
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way, it doesn't get better than that for anyone who calls himself or herself a journalist. Whether
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it's the famous ACORN expose that James led, that in the Obama administration, it brought down a national,
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nationwide community organizing group that was far, far more than that. And James will be here to tell
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us all about that. Or the undercover expose of ABC News anchor Amy Rovac telling people in the studio her
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bosses had spiked her report on pedophile multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein. Well, here with us now is James
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O'Keefe, who has authored a brand new book. And it is called, it's one of my favorite titles, James,
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American Muckraker, Rethinking Journalism in the 21st Century. It's great to have you with us.
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What are your thoughts as a video journalist, an undercover investigative journalist,
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as we look out on this body politic and our society so riven with corruption and an absolute
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climate of fear in too many quarters of our country? Well, Lou, this book took me about five
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years to write. And it was a collection of stories from people from a glimpse into guerrilla reporting
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as seen by the muckrakers who defend press freedom in a brave new world of video journalism. How do we
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define muckraker? I know that's something that you referred to yourself or others referred to you when
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you got started in your profession. I think a muckraker or an investigative reporter is one who makes
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public disclosures, who publicizes things that powerful people do not want published for the wrong
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reasons. And often today, journalism has become too much about relaying information from established
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figures that they want published. So acting as ombudsman or spokespeople for the government,
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running towards the people with a megaphone, amplifying what people in government tell them,
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and corporations too. You have pharmaceutical companies now are just completely in harmony
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with the paper of record. And that, don't take my word for it, you know, it's self-evident in the
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commercial breaks on these news stations. So there's a lot of things that I write about in this book,
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economics, privacy, deception, litigation, suffering, you know, is a theme that is throughout the book
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because it does require sacrifice to tell the truth. So we need to really have a reckoning about
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journalism and, and, and who were allowed to do journalism and the rights of citizens to do journalism,
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which is something that is written about extensively in this book, American Muckraker.
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Well, as, as you know, journalism done best is, is tough slutting. It's awful hard work.
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There are not many people who are interested in the hard work of journalism. It's one of the disappointing
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things to me. And, uh, uh, my craft is an advocacy journalist, uh, practicing and cable news for many
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years. Uh, young people would walk through the door. They'd want to be a television star. They didn't
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want to have to be, uh, you know, getting their hands dirty and digging, uh, digging through the research
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and producing great stories and great exposés. Uh, what, what do you think of the quality of the people
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coming out of schools, uh, in this country right now and their preparation to join for crying out
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loud, 90% of the jobs are corporate media jobs. Uh, and by that, I mean the cable news networks,
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the broadcast network news divisions, as well as newspapers and, and websites. Well, I, I don't know
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what they're teaching in journalism schools. I would quote the late Mike Wallace, who said,
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you learn more on three months on the job than you do in a journalism school. I think you would back
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that statement up. I certainly learned how to do it. I started a newspaper at Rutgers, the state
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university of New Jersey, and I would do local reporting, like how much my professors were making
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or, you know, the ratio of political party and in the history department, I would walk up to
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professors with a microphone. I learned a lot. I learned by doing, and I think there's a lot of good
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people that try to go into the field, but I would reference this, this chapter in this book,
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American muckraker about whistleblowers, like Carrie porch, who said that his dream had become
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a nightmare when he worked, when he went to work for CNN or Patrick Davis, a 25 year veteran of the
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network. He was the director of field operations, the manager of field operations saying, quote,
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I hate what we have become unquote. He said that he did not know that he was being recorded.
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So there's a lot of good people that, that think they're getting into a profession that wants to
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tell the truth, quote, without fear or favor to quote the New York times, regardless of party or
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sex, sex or factions. But what they uncover is that everything they thought they knew about the
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world turns out not to be true. And the qualities it takes, the type of person it takes to do this
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work. You're right. You can't do it for fame. You know, you don't want to do it for fame. And if,
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and if you are doing it for fame, you're going to be sorely, uh, humbled because all of these
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organizations that have the power to humiliate you, the tech, uh, uh, Washington post New York
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times oligarchy. And by the way, the New York times is very powerful by virtue of the fact that
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Twitter, Instagram, Google, and Facebook prefer that news in their algorithm that power is given
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And by that news, you're referring to left-wing propaganda.
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I'm referring to what they refer to themselves as articles. News articles are preferred by the
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tech algorithms. And if Lou Dobbs tweets out something that's not as preferred in the algorithms
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as if a national security report, the New York times.
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Well, let's go, let's go to, let's go to a couple of words you use. One is you use the word oligarch.
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We don't hear many people use that word in this country. That's reserved for billionaires in,
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uh, Ukraine, uh, Russia, Europe, uh, even Asia. Uh, we, we refer sort of deferent, not sort of
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deferentially, uh, uh, uh, we it's often used in the most servile of manner, uh, by journalists.
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They talk about billionaires as if they are somehow, uh, God's gift to society instead of, uh, an oligarch,
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which is what they really are. And when you talk about big tech, you talk about social media
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you talk about the business round table, the chamber of commerce and wall street. You're
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talking about oligarchs who have an agenda that has very little to do with American, uh,
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interests, whether foreign or domestic. Well, and the oligarchy effectively, the newspapers
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have been decimated. When you got your start in journalism, there were newspapers. I mean, I
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read about this in my research. The Chicago sun times was a famous
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muckraking newspaper in Chicago. And they did this. You think that I'm elaborate with
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our undercover stuff. They did this thing where they bought a bar in 1977, I believe. And they
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called it the mirage. And the journalists, uh, uh, got jobs as bartenders and covertly photographed
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everything. And they, they think that they got, they did that. It was a quite elaborate deception,
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but it uncovered some amazing findings. They, they caught city inspectors, bribing,
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beginning bribe. They, they caught people being paid off and, and, and it really reformed the city
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of Chicago. And maybe if we had that stuff being exposed, Chicago wouldn't be in the situation it's
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in, but something changed, you know, in the decades since I think that people were reluctant to do that.
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I think that people for a couple of reasons, I think economics, it's too expensive to do that type
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of reporting litigation. We saw that with ABC versus food line in 1992, when they were sued,
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when ABC news was sued by food line grocery, after ABC news recorded, uh, some things, they got jobs at
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the grocery store. Now, ABC news won that lawsuit on appeal, but it really deterred, uh, corporations
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from spending the money. Uh, and oftentimes investigative reporting is a loss leader on a company's balance
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sheet. You don't even make money doing this. It's very expensive and you often lose profit doing it.
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That's why we're a nonprofit. It's why Jeff Bezos owns the Washington post. Uh, it is why Disney owns
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ABC news. Uh, you go through this, they're the only companies with that kind of concentrated economic
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power, uh, who can afford, uh, the, at least the pretense of journalism. Uh, there are exceptions.
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Uh, there are some good, uh, people within that organization, but overall corporate media is a
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hack's paradise, uh, and a place where you will either carry out the company line or you will be
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carried out as they say. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's definitely something that I've thought
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a lot about. And, um, I think there's a, there's a lot of, I spent so much time wrestling with the
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ethics of what we do and the, the, the rub on us is that we're, you know, we're criminals where we,
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we were scum, we, we, we break the law. It's well, there was more ethics in this book. There's more
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self-introspection in this book about where the boundaries are on what we do than any textbook in
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journalism in America. And it's forged through experience. It's not, well, let's get to the
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let's get to the fun of journalism too, because it is, after all, it's not a profession. You don't
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have to have an, uh, uh, an MD, a PhD to be a journalist or to understand journalism. It's about
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telling stories and reporting facts and bringing truth when possible, but never dedicating yourself
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to truth, dedicate yourself to the facts and you'll find the truth. Right? So why don't we talk about
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that great exploit? And that's ACORN. How is it that you brought down, uh, in large measure, you,
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uh, uh, ACORN, uh, in the Obama administration, when community organizing was at its height,
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a, a much sought after, uh, label, uh, for anyone who wanted to work, uh, in politics, particularly.
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It was, it was an amazing story that is hard to believe as truth is stranger than fiction. I got
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a message from a girl on Facebook. This was 12 years ago. I had just come off fresh exposing
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Planned Parenthood in California. And, and I just, this young woman I never met before
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traded some messages on Facebook and said, what if you wanted to ACORN as a, as a, as a prostitute,
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sort of like a secret shopper, you'd go in there and say, you want to start a prostitution business.
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And I replied by saying, Hey, there should probably be a pimp with this, with this foe
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hooker. And then I said, well, are you wanting to go in there? And she said, yes, she was 20 years old.
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We had no money. We had no organization really. I mean, I had done some things, but I was broke
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and we just drove around Baltimore, DC, New York, Brooklyn. And we recorded all these government
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workers. They were getting money from the government. They were an organization that was allocated
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5 billion in the stimulus plan. And we presented ourselves as criminals, as people who had underage
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hookers. And they counseled us, they gave us tax advice on how to disguise the hookers on our tax
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forms. And it was so shocking. I mean, these tapes are, are something like, you know, Borat meets 60
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minutes. It was just absolutely shocking. And, and after the tapes came out, the media, this was an
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education for me. This is again, September of 2009, the media, particularly CNN said, well,
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these are just isolated incidents. And then the next day we release another tape and then they
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would say, well, that's just two. And then the next day we release a third tape. So we had to fight the
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media. And for me, it was like, why are you guys, why are you attacking me? Like, we're, aren't we
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supposed to be on the same team? I mean, if government people are doing something wrong, is it your
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allegiance to president Obama, who was an attorney for ACOR? The New York times had spiked.
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Their front page story about ACORN. Well, you know it was. You know it was. There's no speculation
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about it now. But Congress. It was exactly that. Congress defunded ACORN within a week of these
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exposures. And the Senate voted 83 to 7 to cut off the funding. The Senate was then controlled by
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Democrats, which is unthinkable today. But I think it was a case where Obama and his allies in politics
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wanted to distance themselves from what was being found out. And it was the Abu Ghrave of the great
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society. It was a terrible indictment on journalism. John Stewart of The Daily Show, who's far less
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partisan than Trevor Noah now is. Even John Stewart said, where the hell, I'm quoting him, where the
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hell were you journalists? Why does it take these two kids with a camcorder to do what you should be
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doing? And that really is the thing. They have to attack me because our very existence is an indictment
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against them. Well, it certainly is. And it's been great. To me, it's been great fun. The Jeffrey
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Epstein story, the Amy Roback story at ABC announcing for all the world that the bosses had spiked the story
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on Epstein. Tell us about that and how that played out. Well, this was an amazing, amazing story.
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Amy Roback is the anchor for Good Morning America. And she has a lav mic on, the little microphone on
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your lapel. And she was talking during commercial break. This is not on the air. And we had a source
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within ABC News that gave us a copy of that recording. And this woman, she's a blonde woman that works at ABC
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News. In the morning, she's bemoaning the fact that her corporate bosses told her they wouldn't run the
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Epstein story because, to quote Amy Roback, they wanted to protect Bill Clinton and Andrew and the
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British royal family. And they say, well, we don't want to we don't want to burn our sources with Kate
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and Will, you know, because the ABC News is too busy cozying up, again, to quote Amy Roback, cozying up to
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these people rather than investigating them. And this is very credible tape. It's actually one of
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the most amazing pieces of footage you'll ever see, because these anchors present themselves one
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way. And then in the commercial break, they're just they're just letting it all loose. And this clip
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was so powerful that it forced people who don't like Project Veritas to praise Project Veritas.
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We had a lot of people that attack us that were like, whoa, look at this piece of footage. And it was
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presented to us, Lou, by an insider within ABC News, who, by the way, Lou, that person still works for ABC
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News. We protected that person's identity. And it's an incredible story of whistleblowing. And also, obviously,
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the Jeff Epstein story, which was spiked, which was canceled by corporate ABC News.
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Well, again, just further illustration of the commitment by corporate media, corporate news media. It's not to the
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story. It's to protecting the access and the company line. I want to turn to right now.
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What is Project Veritas' standing now? Because you speak sometimes rather defensively, James, about
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being hated and reviled. And I know that you've got a lot of scars, because we're always, all of us,
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no matter what, the walk of life. We're victims as well as beneficiaries of our experience. But don't
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you sense that Veritas is now highly regarded, well-respected, and is the subject of considerable
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gratitude for the service you've provided all of us over the course of these years?
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That's a great question. The first chapter of this book is called Suffering, or rather the preface
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is called Suffering. And I think to be a journalist, or to be any type of truth teller, you do have to
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suffer. But I also believe that you're going to suffer no matter what you do. Because if you don't
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follow your conscience, if you don't tell the truth, you'll suffer in a different way.
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And I think that, and Laura Logan, a friend of mine, once said to me, and I've written this in this book,
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that, yes, you go through a lot of hell. I mean, I've been incarcerated. I've been sued. I've been
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vindicated, obviously. But I had the FBI raid my home in November. I've not been charged with any
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crimes. But this form of intimidation, you do kind of enter this period of grief and uncertainty. And
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for at least a little while, you go through a lot of inconvenience and pain. But I think that
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that engenders trust with people. People come to me and come to our reporters that work here
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because they trust us. And we don't settle lawsuits, even though it costs us a ton of money.
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I think the mock raker has to be prepared to suffer. It's a prerequisite for growth. It compels
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transformation and self-reflection. And if you continue going, after you go through this,
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you send a message to other people that they can do it too. I've become too well known. But
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there's a vision here where there's thousands of these muckrakers that come out. And so two becomes
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four and four becomes eight. And the same experiences that tortured you do engender trust with those
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people. And they continue to do it. And it's really an amazing thing to witness. And I think,
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Lou, you're right. I think that when after the FBI raid, it actually kind of strangely helped us
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because the guy that came to us last week with these documents inside the Department of Defense
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never would have given us those documents had it not been for all these attacks on us
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See, one of the things that I, James, that surprised me over the past five years with the Trump
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administration, President Trump was the subject of FBI investigations before he was elected.
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And now the subject of further legal persecution throughout. Do you know, I don't know of a
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single whistleblower who stood up in either the Justice Department, the FBI, the Department of
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Defense, the national security apparatus. I don't know of a single, single whistleblower who had the guts
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Well, you just raised the most important issue. I know sources inside the Justice Department and a
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lot of them take an oath. For example, the Marine Corps major that provided the, I'm sorry, he did
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not provide the documents to me, but he issued an on the record statement to us. This is Joe Murphy,
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Marine Corps fellow at DARPA. What he told me was there are good people inside. And I believe him
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that are trying to reform the institutions from within.
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Yeah, I don't believe them, James. I got to stop you right there and interrupt you.
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You know, the first job of a journalist is be skeptical. I've heard that the FBI is full of good
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people. I've heard that there are a lot of people in the Pentagon who care deeply about this country
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and have committed themselves to service in uniform. And God bless them and thank them for that.
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But the fact that no one stands up for truth within that organization, we fight long wars,
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21 years in Afghanistan, a third world country. And what we get is what we saw as President Biden
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ordered a surrender and instant retreat. I don't think good people will put up with that. I don't
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think that, you know, good people do the right thing, whether it's coming to you with the story,
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whether it's understanding that ours is a craft and you have to work and you have to dig and you have to
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hit ethical standards and boundaries that you honor and respect. It's just it's about good people
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and good people do good things. They don't sit in silence while people are persecuted for five years.
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I think your point is very valid. And I write about this extensively in the book. I think
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people fear losing their pensions, right? I mean, but the tenant, I mean, you're talking to a man who
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was raided by the FBI. And I think that half of the people who were in that my apartment that morning
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are not bad people. But I think you're right. I think they're scared. I think they're afraid of
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giving up their pensions and their mortgages, blah, blah, blah. And effectively, as Americans,
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we have to ask ourselves, what are we willing to sacrifice? Because they apparently will sacrifice
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anything when you stand and will allow a good, innocent and everyone in that bureau knew that
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the president of the United States had done nothing with which he was charged. And to let him go forward
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in an impeachment effort that was absolutely scurrilous on the part of the Dems and to continue to kiss
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their butts and grovel as agents of the FBI tells me we don't have an FBI. We have people who are,
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you know, they're sitting simply sucking at the public trough.
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We do have 120,000 people who work at the Department of Justice, and I'm calling on
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people to blow the whistle. And I think they will, Lou. I'm a little more hopeful. It's horrible what
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is happening. I'm not about hope. And I am about the facts. And the facts are that they haven't stood
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up and not one single person stepped forward. And that is a blight on the FBI from which I don't know
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that they can ever recover. It's not just their own corruption. It's their cowardice. These are people
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defending the country for crying out loud. It's, to me, is just appalling.
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Well, I am, I agree with you, and I hope we do something about it. The stories in this book,
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American Muckraker, show people who do and lose their livelihoods but survive. There's life after
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whistleblowing. And I just hope more people can come out, just read their stories and understand what
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it's going to take, because we, hopefully, we can prevent society's collapse with truth-tellers.
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Well, we'll do our part, but people have to actually do, and not simply say. And that is the reason we all
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need to stand up when we're challenged. And the one good thing about being in this craft is, by God, you find
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out whether or not you've got the guts to tell the truth and to suffer the consequences, because there are
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always consequences. You and I both know it from personal experience. And I thank you for doing so
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throughout your career, James. The book is American Muckraker, and that is James O'Keefe and Project
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Veritas. We recommend the book to you highly. James, thanks for being with us today. Stay strong, my friend.
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Join us again tomorrow for the Great America Podcast. Stay in the fight. Truth, justice,
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and the American way will prevail against all enemies, against all odds.