KASH PATEL— MORE DURHAM CHARGES AHEAD; CUCCINELLI—STATES CAN DEFEND BORDER
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Summary
The truth is emerging, at least from the legal system, the truth has been staring us in the face for years. Joining us now is Attorney C.J. Patel, Senior Fellow at the Center for Renewing America and former Chief Investigator for the House Intelligence Committee, and former terrorism prosecutor at the Department of Justice early in his career.
Transcript
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Great America Podcast with Lou Dobbs,
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always in the fight for truth, justice, and yes, our American way of life.
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And now, here he is, the Peabody award-winning voice of truth, the great Lou Dobbs.
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Welcome, everybody. Great to have you with us here on the Great America Show.
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The national corporate-owned media is ignoring what is unquestionably one of the biggest stories
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of the past number of years. That is the special counsel established by former Attorney General
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William Barr has, two years later, filed documents alleging the Hillary Clinton campaign hired a
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technology firm to spy on Donald Trump, both as a candidate and sitting president. That the
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campaign funded and ordered its attorney, one of them or several of them, to construct a false
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connection between Donald Trump and Russia. The fact is that ultimately became the fake Trump
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dossier. You remember that. The basis created by Christopher Steele, the Steele dossier that was
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ultimately used as the foundation for the Mueller special counsel that persecuted, hounded, and harassed
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President Trump for years. Now, the truth is emerging, at least from the legal system. The truth
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has been staring us in the face for years. Joining us now is Attorney Cash Patel, Senior Fellow at the
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Center for Renewing America, the former Chief Investigator for the House Intelligence Committee,
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former terrorism prosecutor at the Department of Justice early in his career, public defender as
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well. Cash, it is great to have you with us here on the show. A special counsel, John Durham, that most
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Americans had forgotten about in court filings this past Friday, saying Hillary Clinton's campaign,
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her lawyers, a technology firm, played a part in the construction and used the so-called Steele dossier
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to create the Russiagate hoax. What do you think? Well, Lou, it's great to be with you, and thanks for
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your extensive coverage on this. You're one of the few that actually got it right the entire time, so
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I'm glad for your audience. Look, we knew, as you knew back then, that Hillary Clinton paid for
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the dossier, and that was what I call line of effort one, right? They were running that game
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against the Trump candidacy paid for by the DNC and Hillary Clinton campaign, conjuring up false
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information from overseas and peddled into the FBI, and the FBI then corrupt action wiretap the Trump
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presidency. That was their first effort. Their second parallel effort, which we now know, thanks to John
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Durham's filing, is this outrageous demonstration of callous by the Clinton campaign to think that
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they could get away with wiretapping not just the presidential candidate, but the White House,
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a sitting United States president. That makes Watergate look like a parking citation, and they
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were running both of these scams from early in July 16 going forward, which means they've been
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ongoing for years, and John Durham just showed us the nuts and bolts of who paid for it, the Hillary
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Clinton campaign. They indicted, the special counsel indicted their lawyer in relation to this
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activity, and now he's telling us there's a lot more coming. A lot more, and we read reports, John
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Radcliffe apparently telling John Durham that in his judgment, the evidence suggests that there is a basis
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for a number, a number of other charges and targets. Your reaction? Yeah, so look, Johnny
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Radcliffe, the former DNI, is a dear friend of mine. We served together both over in Congress and then
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over in the Trump administration. He's right. He told John Durham exactly what I told John Durham. I took
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66 depositions under oath during the Russiagate investigation, including the likes of Jake Sullivan, who
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should be the next target, and Michael Sussman as well. The basis for the Sussman indictment is my
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interrogation of him under oath four years ago, and I agree with DNI Radcliffe that there are more
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indictments coming because there's a number of other individuals who I believe lied under oath
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to Congress, and those are just the beginnings of the crimes. Now we get to the criminal conspiracy
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enterprise that was coordinated and orchestrated by the Hillary Clinton campaign, and there's now
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a chance on planet Earth that only one or two people involve themselves in this effort. It is a massive
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enterprise that they perpetuated, and now somehow we are finding out, I know it's taken too long, but
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to uncover this, it takes time, but we're finding out that they actually got an arrangement with some
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entity, the Clinton campaign that is, to infiltrate the servers at the Trump White House. That can only
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happen if they are on board with the NSA, and that is the biggest scandal and crime in U.S. history.
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You know, there's a name that has not surfaced, and that is the former director of the NSA,
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uh, Keith Alexander. Uh, he is, he didn't show up with the, the, the evil triad, uh, of, uh, of CIA,
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uh, of the, uh, uh, the, uh, of the three agencies, uh, in hearings, uh, and it's odd to be,
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I've always been impressed by his absence. Is that because he's a good guy, or is it because he's
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something else? You know, I'm not too sure personally. It did strike me as odd too, and
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there was some dissension between the NSA and CIA and FBI when we were running the, uh, investigation
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under Chairman Nunes. But what, what I can tell you from my 16 years in government definitively,
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and since I've been away from it for over a year and I don't have access to classified information,
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I can say this knowing I can't get in trouble. There is no way the Hillary Clinton campaign
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secured a quote, sensitive arrangement, end quote, per John Durham's, uh, latest pleading
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to obtain information and access to the servers of the white house. That cannot be done at the
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most secure system on planet earth. You cannot do it unless you partner with the intelligence
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community. And what John Durham is basically saying is that the Hillary Clinton campaign
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partnered with permission of the intelligence community under president Trump to investigate
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and infiltrate the servers at the white house to continue their false Russia narrative.
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The technology firm that apparently was hired by the, uh, the attorneys and the effectively
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the Clinton campaign because it was their money, uh, that firm, how much trouble is it in,
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Oh, I think, uh, that firm is probably one of the cooperators in this because they know they
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are in so much trouble and Rodney Jaffe, as we have identified him through the pleadings
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and matching them up with the facts. We know that that tech firm itself that was hired by
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Sussman who's indicted on behalf of the Clinton campaign, that tech firm told the Clinton campaign
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that they could not find any connections between Trump and Russia. And to do so would basically
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be a fraud. And Sussman in the Clinton campaign went ahead and said, do it anyway, make it up and
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give it to us. So then he Sussman could peddle that information to the FBI and other government
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agencies. So they could in 2016 and 17 continue to spy on president Trump and have him investigated
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falsely. That is the very essence of this criminal enterprise. And it is going to be a very big
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network. The tech company is just a piece of it. Don't forget fusion GPS and their entire
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involvement in this scheme and Glenn Simpson and the likes of Andy McCabe. This is why Lou, I'm with
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you. It's frustrating that it takes this long. And me as a former federal prosecutor, national security
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prosecutor, you know, put together some of the most complex international terrorism cases on
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planet Earth. But this is the largest criminal enterprise in U.S. history against a sitting
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president. So for John Durham, he's probably working with an army of what, four or five people
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that he can trust, not the entire Department of Justice. So it's going slow and I'm frustrated
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at it, but he's building the case the right way. And I think in the next couple of months,
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you're going to see some big indictments come down from his from his grand juries.
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There is every suggestion that this goes, this is, and there are Obama years and a seed
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to the, the spying effort by the Hillary Clinton campaign is how high does this go? How, just
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how high does it go and how broadly do you think it goes?
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I think it goes, it's a web that goes all the way to the top. And let me give you an example.
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Jake Sullivan, the current national security advisor, the president of the United States
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right now, as we speak, was back then the head advisor for the Hillary Clinton campaign.
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Jake Sullivan back then pushed the Alpha Bank narrative that Michael Sussman conjured up for
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them. And then later under oath to me in an interrogation, Jake Sullivan said he had no idea
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what the campaign's lawyers were being paid millions of dollars for. He had no idea about
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the Steele dossier line of effort. He had no idea about the Alpha Bank server line of effort. I find
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that impossible to believe. I also find it shocking for America's defense that that man is a national
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security advisor to our current president advising him on everything from Russia to Ukraine to Afghanistan.
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And it's no wonder every one of those areas is such a disaster because he's being advised by
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a political hack who I believe lied to Congress and helped orchestrate this entire scheme.
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And Cash is speaking of his time as the former chief investigator for the House Intelligence
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Yes, sir. I ran the Russiagate investigation for Chairman Nunes.
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And I'm just reminding everybody of what you were doing at that point and why you were doing it.
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You were also I've never seen a man more frustrated, frankly, than Devin Nunes when he was
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responsible for so much and knew so much, as did you. And I've always I've always registered your
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frustration as you talked about. Both of you and various members of that committee, I'm sure,
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have known what the reality and the truth of this is for all those years and have been constrained
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by law and regulation from from sharing that knowledge, correct?
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Well, that's right, Lou. We could have we could have done what so many of the Democrats like Adam
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Schiff and those other and that other circus that they were running, just leak classified information,
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tell the media to lie, the mainstream media to lie on behalf of the Democratic National Party.
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But no, we, Devin, myself, Johnny Ratcliffe, we did it the right way because we believe in the rule
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of law and constitutional oversight. We knew it was going to take longer. It was going to take time.
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And of course, the second entire battle to this is not just the investigation was hard enough to
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prove this criminal enterprise, but informing the American public in the world, Lou, as you know,
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was the second fight. We couldn't do it because we had such a corrupt media without guys like you.
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The message would never have gotten out. And the whole purpose of the investigation to hold
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people accountable and inform Americans, we wouldn't have been able to accomplish that.
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But we're finally breaking through. I think that's a calculus that doesn't immediately
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occur to some in the audience because they're not aware, as those of us who work in media or
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politics or government, of just how corrupt the national media is, because simply to leak it,
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for example, to the New York Times or the New York Times or CBS News or to Disney's ABC News,
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the corporate media, in all likelihood, if you'd given it to them on a platter,
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would have not it wouldn't have spiked it because it would have disappeared before it would have been
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ready for a spike. Probably an editor would never have touched it.
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No, you're absolutely right. Instead, what they did was, was instead what they did was they,
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they started attacking Devin Nunes of the world personally and myself and defaming us mercilessly
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because they said these guys, they knew we were putting out the truth through shows like Lou Dobbs.
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And they said, absolutely not. We cannot have this narrative out there.
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Donald Trump must be shown to be a Russian crony and not Hillary Clinton. And they just started
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mercilessly attacking us. And that's why we started suing them for defamation. You got to correct
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the media. And you're right. If you could have served it up on a silver platter and they would
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have just said, you guys are liars. You're corrupt. You're Russian cronies.
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And and where do we go from here? John Durham, I swear to you, I, the man is,
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should be commended by everyone for what he has done. And, and I, I have mixed emotions about
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William Barr. So I'm asking you from your perspective and from, with your knowledge
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and your experience in all of these areas of intelligence and politics and governance itself,
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tell us what we are to make of William Barr, because on one level, he didn't do his job
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on so many issues. He did, however, appoint John Durham, special counsel that gave him resources
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and time and some immunity from the deep state and the ideologues that were to follow the,
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the Trump administration to get the job done. And this is part of the evidence that he is getting
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No, you're looking right. I'm not here to judge the arc of the, uh, the bill Barr attorney general
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tenure, but in this instance, we were able to educate the justice department that this was an
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actual criminal conspiracy and Robert Mueller failed, um, in his appointment to uncover any
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of this, as we now know. And thankfully bill Barr did appoint John Durham, who I know personally
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I've worked with. Um, and he's a very serious career prosecutor. He's one of the few guys that when
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you say career prosecutor, he's actually a career prosecutor. I have no idea what his politics are,
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but I do know the level and depth of his work and the way he's putting together these pleadings
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in these cases, he's not doing it to say, okay, I'm going to charge three people with a couple of
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low level felonies and we're going to call it a day. He's doing it because he's building the
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criminal conspiracy case, the larger enterprise case against, I think the likes of Andy McCabe,
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um, Peter Strzok, Lisa page, um, Bruce or fusion GPS. And now most importantly,
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the Clinton campaign and the likes of Jake Sullivan. So, I mean, just think about this.
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This is a, this is the cast of characters. So if the democratic party had an all-star game,
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these people would be starting for them. And John Durham is investigating all of them and their
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intricate web of conspiracy against the United States. And then we go into the issue of the
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leadership of the campaign itself, because these monies that were expended and the, uh, the effort
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and energies of personnel within the campaign, it seems to me, uh, couldn't have been expended
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without the knowledge of the chairman than the directors of the campaign itself.
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You're absolutely right. And one of those senior level people was Jake Sullivan back then and,
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and, and, and Podesta and Ben Rose and whoever else was over there. And you're right. You can't spend
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tens of millions of dollars because remember that's how much Perkins Coie was paid. Perkins Coie is a law
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firm that Elias and Sussman worked at and, uh, worked for the Hillary Clinton campaign. They were
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paid tens of millions of dollars. Nobody can spend that amount of money and not blink, not even the
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Hillary Clinton campaign. So they knew they were being billed for it. Of course, there were conversations
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between the Elias's and Sussman's of the world and the Clinton leadership, um, over at her campaign.
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We hope John Durham finds out the details of those conversations because in that detail, I believe is a
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criminal conspiracy that John Durham needs to show America through an indictment. And, uh, we know,
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I think many of us believe we know, uh, where this, uh, should lead, where, uh, it seems, uh, you know,
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that it has to lead, but proving it as another thing and the strength and the energy of the, uh, of the
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special counsel will be all important in, in justice being, being served and, uh, uh, being, uh, in fact
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in force. Do you think that Durham has that energy and that commitment?
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I do. I do. Remember, this is a guy, most people forget that was the lead prosecutor in the rendition
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error during the CIA programs, the rendition programs and, and, and faced a massive onslaught
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because he was taking on the intelligence community. And in that sense, he's doing that
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again. He's taking on the intelligence community and of course the Clinton campaign and, and the
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Clinton machine. So it's a little bigger. And that's why I think John Durham is uniquely situated.
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I don't think anyone's scaring him off. And, you know, let me tell you this, people always say,
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what, you know, why doesn't someone, why doesn't Merrick Garland shut down John Durham? They can't,
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they don't have the lawful authority. John Durham has brought multiple federal prosecutions
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that are still ongoing. No federal judge in America is going to permit those investigations
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to be thwarted or shut down by the department of justice. And that of course is exactly why the
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special counsel exists in law, uh, to pro to protect, uh, the public interest against, uh, I'll put it this
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way, other political interest within government itself. Uh, this let's turn to, if we may, one other
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aspect of this, and that is what people are now, uh, worrying about and thinking about and hoping
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about, and that is how long will this take to get to the next stage? And what do you expect that next
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stage to be? Um, I expect that you'll see a couple more pleadings of like in the fashion that we just
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saw from John Durham over the next month. And in the next two to four months, I suspect you'll see
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about four more indictments. Um, and I do think he has Andy McCabe as a target, um, for his, uh,
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indictment. And I think that's just right because Andy McCabe was at the center of this, um, criminal,
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uh, crooked conspiracy. So I think it's going to take a little more time and I know that's frustrating
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to hear, but, um, I know he's doing it the right way because as a former federal prosecutor, I see
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these pleadings and I'm like, okay, he's serious. He's legit. This is not someone who's just, uh,
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going away in a week or so. This is, he's building something big. Plus let's not forget Lou.
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He put over 24 witnesses in the grand jury to include the former, uh, uh, assistant director
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of the FBI, Peter Strzok, Bill Priestap, you know, all these names, he put agency officials in there.
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He put campaign officials in there. He put James Baker, the former general counsel of, uh, in there.
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You don't, you don't go in and get these people under oath. If you're just building a small Mickey
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mouse case, you lock in their testimony for future use. That's, that's what a smart prosecutor does.
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And that's what I believe John Durham has done. He's got the right players and he's putting the
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pieces together. And with that grand jury, uh, the, the risk, the jeopardy for those, uh, those people
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speaking under oath, uh, rises exponentially. Uh, and of course that's the point so that the,
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the truth will emerge, uh, with a, with a little help from new friends, uh, uh, uh, that he brought,
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uh, that he brought forward. I, I, you know, I, I really appreciate you giving us that your,
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your sense of the roadmap here. Uh, he's charged three people, I believe now for, for lying to federal
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agents, um, the serious charges, the charges of, uh, the criminal charges. How soon do you think,
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uh, that one could expect that? I think it's a large conspiracy case that he's bringing,
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you know, I I'll analogize it to a Rico case. Like when we brought mob cases down is he's not
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using the Rico statute, but he's using a similar sort of platform because it's the only way to prove
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this criminal conduct and connect all the people. So that's why I think it's just taking time. And
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that's why I don't think you'll see with a major indictment for, you know, still a few more months.
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Um, unfortunately, I know we want him yesterday, but, um, I have, I do, I do believe he's getting,
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he's getting there and we're going to see more and more pleadings to show where he's going.
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And the thing that's great about John Durham is he hasn't leaked a single thing in this era,
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in this day and age, in this department of justice and this FBI, not one leak, not one leak. And that
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tells me he's got the right crew that he needs ever be it so small to get this thing done. And
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your audience should look out for criminal conspiracy involving, you know, you know,
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the cast of characters better than anyone, Lou, and they're all going to be in it.
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I think that I may be one of the least frustrated people in the country because I am, uh, so excited
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about the fact that truth is finally emerging, uh, and that Durham is shown clearly, uh, for example,
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what you're highlighting there, the fact that he has managed to maintain a confidentiality secrecy
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throughout to me only speaks to the seriousness of the, the charges that he is, uh, planning to
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bring. Uh, I don't know if that's a correct inference or not, but it, but it's mine. Let me turn. You
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mentioned Jake Sullivan, the national security advisor to president Biden. Uh, the hysteria, uh,
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as, uh, Zelensky president Zelensky referred to, uh, uh, referred to Biden and the administration
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on the part of the U S government and the U S president in talking about the quote unquote,
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imminent, uh, invasion of Ukraine by Russia. I I've never seen a situation more screwed. Well,
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that's not true. I've seen a few screwed up situations, but this among the most, and, uh,
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it's right up there with the, the parallel mismanagement of the withdrawal that became
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a surrender and cabal, uh, this is a terrible way to treat a nation that you ostensibly are trying
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to support, uh, against a despot your thoughts about what they've done and how they're doing it.
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No, it's, it's a great point. And that's why I'm so worried that Jake Sullivan is the one
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advising our commander in chief. Look, um, the fact that America has lost its footing on its world stage
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is shown every day in the Biden administration. When it comes to national security, what Russia
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is doing to the Ukraine and what Putin wants the world to focus on he Putin and he Russia and he,
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and he's churning his propaganda machine. Look, I'll be the first to tell you, Putin is never going to
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invade the Ukraine because he knows he can't start world war three, but what he can do is play with
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American propaganda machine, make us look weak, which he wins in doing. And she, she's doing things
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doing the same thing in Taiwan and Putin is going to take this thing to the one, one inch line. And now
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who's negotiating with Putin, you know, the French president or the German chancellor in Putin's
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ginormous, uh, you know, dining room table, 75 feet away with Putin laughing at them and not even that,
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not even mentioning the commander in chief of the United States. That's how far they've fallen. And these
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actions that, that Jake Sullivan is advising the president to take and to take like evacuating our embassy
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and not using our NATO allies is the actions of people who do not know how the national security
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apparatus works, but the only thing they care about is politics. And what they want to show is that
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when, when there is no invasion, uh, mark my word, they will take a victory lap and say they somehow
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saved the world from world war three, um, which could not be further from the truth. They are doing
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everything wrong when it comes to Ukraine. And unfortunately Putin is in a position of dominance based on our
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weakness. And I truly believe, I, I, I, I applaud your analysis and I agree with it entirely. I think
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there is another aspect of this too, that the administration, uh, will not speak of even though
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it's staring them in the face. And that is that Putin has put, uh, not only a hundred thousand of his
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troops on the, on the, on the, on the Western border of Russia with, uh, Ukraine, but he also has his
00:24:21.100
troops, uh, brigades, uh, in, uh, Moldova, uh, has, uh, forces, uh, at least, uh, four or five divisions,
00:24:30.160
uh, in Belarus. Uh, this is, uh, this is de facto annexation. If he simply takes his troops from the border
00:24:40.040
with Ukraine, orders them back to base, uh, and, you know, uh, washes his hands of the whole thing.
00:24:47.180
And then takes, as you say, uh, uh, his time and enjoying what he's done to the West and to us, uh,
00:24:54.960
former supremacy in foreign policy, uh, in the world. Uh, I, this is a de facto annexation. If he wants to leave
00:25:03.980
it right here, he wins, he wins, and he wins. What do you think? You're absolutely right. He's
00:25:10.680
winning. And I hate to say that because this guy's our enemy. This guy's he's remember, this is the
00:25:15.860
guy who spent $41,000 to upend a presidential election cycle in 2015 and 16. And he was laughing
00:25:22.060
at us back then because it happened during the Obama administration. They let it happen. And then
00:25:26.940
everybody overlooked that part and just jumped to Trump's in bed with Putin, which was ludicrous,
00:25:32.060
but he got the media campaign he wanted. We're still talking about it. We've had multiple special
00:25:36.780
councils as a result of it. Um, and he's doing the same thing in the Ukraine. I mean, it's a little
00:25:41.300
more expensive for him to move around these truths, but let's not forget who Vladimir Putin is. He owns
00:25:45.560
half the gas and oil companies in Russia. He has an endless supply of money. He's going to be president.
00:25:50.460
He just changed the law. He's going to be president there for life. So he's not going anywhere. He
00:25:55.340
doesn't have a term out period and he has no respect for American leadership right now. Um, not at the
00:26:01.420
secretary of state level, not at the defense of defense department, but certainly not that place,
00:26:05.580
our defense department, me, I'm shocked to have to admit this as a former chief of staff for DOD,
00:26:11.040
but our defense department is just playing politics with America's national security. And they show
00:26:16.560
it every day. They showed it in Afghanistan and they're showing it again in Ukraine, um, by being
00:26:21.780
outmaneuvered, um, at every chance. And all they care about is the next headline. So these people in
00:26:27.540
charge can fill their egos and make themselves think they are saving America when they are failing
00:26:33.120
America. Lloyd Austin, defense secretary, Mark Milley, uh, the chairman of joint chief of staff,
00:26:40.460
uh, Milley, the chief advisor to the, to the president, uh, all affairs military, uh, Lloyd Austin,
00:26:48.600
actually bringing in the defense, the defense contractors to say, we need your help to find
00:26:57.780
out what the Chinese and Russians are doing with hypersonic missiles. Uh, this is the most,
00:27:05.560
I just, I literally, I'm, I'm lost for words to describe my reaction and my anger that we have
00:27:13.340
such people, uh, who are in charge of this nation's security and the safety of 300 million Americans.
00:27:21.500
It's outrageous. I mean, they are truly politicizing the national security operas takes
00:27:26.260
the two folks you, you said, uh, chairman Milley, who I worked with and worked, he worked for us.
00:27:32.760
Um, he, his sole job is to be the advisor to the president of the United States on military matters.
00:27:37.760
He is not in the chain of command by law. And yet he found himself to inject himself in the
00:27:42.640
chain of command when it came to all things to secure his job into the next administration,
00:27:47.420
i.e. on January 6 matters, i.e. on calling his Chinese counterpart to say, we'll give you a heads
00:27:53.420
up if we're going to invade. He does not give military command orders. He is prohibited from
00:27:58.180
doing that. Lloyd Austin, he has taken the defense department that I used to lead, um, and changed it
00:28:04.260
from a machine that protects Americans to a machine that bends to the will of the mainstream media.
00:28:10.560
For example, the priority of the defense department was climate change. And I'm not kidding,
00:28:16.120
Lou. They, they put out these campaign plans. That's how we move the machine. That's how we
00:28:19.740
fight wars. That's how we prepare to take on Russia, China, and Afghanistan and encountering
00:28:24.380
terrorism. The first campaign plan that Lloyd Austin put out for this DOD was on climate change
00:28:29.840
and the weather. And you got Mark Milley screaming about white rage and phantom goats. And that's what
00:28:34.660
our men and women in uniform are being forced to focus on. So of course they don't know how to
00:28:39.780
withdraw it out of Afghanistan. And of course they don't know how to react to this situation
00:28:43.660
in the Ukraine because they didn't prepare for it because they took their eye off the
00:28:47.720
mission, uh, which was protecting Americans and global security and put it on politics.
00:28:55.100
Cash, if people aren't concerned, uh, they have not heard your words here today. And I know
00:29:02.260
they have, uh, it's, I appreciate your time and your insight and your, and your candor. I, we have
00:29:09.900
a practice, as you know, here on the great America show, we give our guests the last word always and
00:29:15.700
are delighted to do so when, uh, the guest is, uh, cash Patel, uh, if you're, if you will, your
00:29:22.620
concluding thoughts. Mike, well, one, thanks for having this informative discussion, Lou, because
00:29:28.680
it takes, you know, you are so well-read and so up to speed on the matters that that's what it takes
00:29:33.680
for a good, credible media to relay the information to the American people appropriately. And we've
00:29:39.540
covered so much today of such consequence, be it the Durham stuff, um, to the latest in the Ukraine,
00:29:45.380
to our national security, to, um, you know, matters that Americans, everyday Americans care about
00:29:50.380
Democrat or Republican. So I'm just thankful that you're putting this material out there.
00:29:54.900
And, um, if I can ever be so selfish, it's just to ask for your audience to check out my website,
00:30:00.840
fight with cash.com fight with cash.com with a K. Um, we're raising money to help people who need
00:30:06.480
lawyers who've been defamed. So it's a foundation to help Americans. And, um, if they have a spare
00:30:11.400
second, um, check it out. We we'd love your support. Well, I'm sure that the audience will be, uh,
00:30:17.040
eager to support you. Uh, and it's fight with cash, uh, dot com, correct? Yes, sir.
00:30:24.180
All right. Cash Patel. Thank you very much. A great American. We appreciate all that you do
00:30:31.440
and have done for this country. Thanks so much. God bless you. And God bless America.
00:30:37.080
We continue now with a great America show with an important story and important development in the
00:30:42.460
battle to secure our borders, to end open borders, to protect us citizens who live in the border states
00:30:49.760
of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. Uh, there has been, uh, I think one of the most
00:30:56.380
important developments in border security in some time, thanks to the work of the former deputy
00:31:01.980
director of the department of Homeland security and former white house budget director, Russ Vought
00:31:07.560
at the center for renewing America. There is a way forward now for governors of border states
00:31:13.820
to take action on their own, to secure their state's border with Mexico. And that means
00:31:20.780
defending their citizens against the flood of deadly drugs, sex trafficking, and the smuggling
00:31:26.580
of illegal immigrants across the Mexican border. That is a plague in those states with us now is
00:31:34.540
Ken Cuccinelli to tell us more about what seems to me, at least to be the foundation of a new approach
00:31:41.000
to securing that border. Ken, it's great to have you on the great America show and great to talk with
00:32:01.360
you old friend. And I have to say congratulations to you and the center for renewing America. Uh,
00:32:08.280
this is an exciting development, I think for border security, one that I haven't seen since
00:32:13.500
say the election of Donald J. Trump. Yeah, there's no question that, um, this is historic and, um,
00:32:20.620
you know, what it's the first time in American history, the history of the constitution that any
00:32:27.060
legal authority in America has addressed the question of the, is what's going on at the border and
00:32:36.300
invasion? And Arizona attorney general Mark Brnovich issued an opinion on Monday that is the official
00:32:43.400
legal position of the state of Arizona, that the answer to that question is yes. What is happening
00:32:49.040
at the Arizona, Mexico border is an invasion. That's no different than the other border states,
00:32:54.080
but that's, uh, that's his area of authority. That was the first thing he said. The second was
00:32:59.780
that under what's called the guarantee clause, article four section for the constitution. And I
00:33:06.320
welcome everybody listening to us to pull their constitution out of their pocket. I'm sure anybody
00:33:10.400
listening to who Dobbs has one in their pocket, um, and take a look at it. And the federal government
00:33:16.520
promises three things to the States. They promise a Republican form of government, which is what the
00:33:23.320
guarantee clause is best known for. They promise to protect States against domestic insurrection
00:33:29.640
within the state. So against the state government, and they promise to protect every state against
00:33:35.720
invasion. And it's that provision that Arizona attorney general Mark Brnovich found the federal
00:33:41.900
government has abjectly failed to fulfill. And the third conclusion of his opinion was the, okay, now what
00:33:50.680
is that under the very end of article one, article one, section 10, paragraph three, which is most
00:33:58.200
commonly known for the compacts clause, but it also includes an opportunity for States to defend
00:34:05.060
themselves when they are actually invaded. And that's what the language says. And that's what the
00:34:11.980
attorney general of Arizona, Mark Brnovich found is that the governor of Arizona as the commander in
00:34:18.560
chief of Arizona can use their state forces, state police, national guard to repel people at the
00:34:26.980
border in between the legal ports of entry that they don't need the permission of the federal
00:34:33.760
government to do it. Um, and as you noted, Lou, that's a game changer. If one of the governors on
00:34:40.280
the border will actually take up their authority and fulfill their responsibilities to protect the people
00:34:46.360
of their state. Now let's go to that and attorney, the attorney general, uh, Brnovich is, uh, I, I, I mean,
00:34:55.160
it's terrific that he now has made that ruling. What is the governor of Arizona going to do about it? Is he
00:35:01.780
going to use that authority, uh, to secure the border and protect his citizens in that state?
00:35:07.560
It's an excellent question. And, um, you know, thus far he hasn't done it, but I think the issuing
00:35:18.140
of the opinion completely changes the landscape and the political pressure. I will tell you this,
00:35:23.920
Lou, um, this issue has been vehemently picked up at the governor's race. They have a governor's race
00:35:30.060
this year. Um, and I predict on your show, I predict that the next Arizona governor will use
00:35:39.960
this authority. No one will be elected in Arizona this year after this opinion without committing
00:35:47.360
to use this authority. That's my prediction. So it, as much as I'd like it to happen tomorrow,
00:35:53.300
it's at least going to happen next year. And that's only halfway through the Biden administration,
00:35:58.900
instead of having to wait all the way to the end until we get a president who will actually
00:36:03.200
enforce our laws and protect our borders. Yeah. I, I, it's one thing to, to be waiting for the,
00:36:09.560
for the election in 2024. It's another to count up the cost of doing so. When we look at all of the
00:36:17.700
deaths, all of the deadly drugs that are coming into this country, the human smuggling, the, the sex
00:36:23.540
trafficking, my God, it's irresponsible of anyone, but most especially the president of the United
00:36:30.500
States, Joe Biden, to basically vow that he will leave that border wide open. Uh, he will bring in
00:36:38.260
as many illegal immigrants as possible. Uh, and, uh, the rest is collateral damage and so be it, uh,
00:36:45.600
it seems to be what he's saying exactly. It does seem to be what he's saying exactly. And, um, you
00:36:53.920
know, we've seen so much tragedy across this country because of not having a secure border. Mark
00:36:59.800
Morgan likes to say that every town in America is a border town. Yep. And what he means by that is all
00:37:05.900
those drugs you referenced, which are now produced in Mexico. I mean, the only deadly drug not produced
00:37:12.920
in Mexico anymore is cocaine. And that trans ships through Mexico, the Mexican drug cartels,
00:37:19.160
the most evil, vicious people in the Western hemisphere control what's coming across that
00:37:25.140
border. Americans have a hard time with this. Our government, to the extent we control the border at
00:37:30.840
all is, is who we think of on the, on the border. But on the other side, looking North, it is two
00:37:38.880
cartels, the Sinaloa cartel, actually three Zetas and CJNG, not the Mexican government that crosses
00:37:47.160
that border. Nothing crosses that border without the permission and paying a toll to those cartels.
00:37:54.040
There are people who believe they're literally making more money with the human smuggling, which
00:37:59.000
we call illegal immigration than they are with drug smuggling now. And yet the drugs that they're
00:38:04.460
sending into this country killed over a hundred thousand people in the last fiscal year.
00:38:10.240
It's, and I, and I'm looking at a number from, uh, from actually your policy brief, uh, which says,
00:38:17.660
uh, as senior fellow, it's, uh, Ken Cuccinelli, uh, saying data provided by the customs border protection
00:38:25.760
in March of last year, estimated cartels and human trafficking earning $14 million a day,
00:38:32.920
moving people across that border. Uh, it's, and I, I would suspect Ken, that that's even, uh, perhaps
00:38:40.320
a, uh, conservative estimate. Yeah, it obviously, first of all, it's obviously an estimate, right?
00:38:48.720
Because they don't really cooperate with us auditing them. And, um, and, um, uh, nonetheless,
00:38:56.940
when it, the intelligence that we have on the illegal flows is really pretty good. We know the pricing.
00:39:04.500
And, uh, one of the things I used to tweet when I was the deputy secretary, I would, I would put out
00:39:10.640
some of the ads, the advertisements that the coyotes run in Honduras on Guatemala, radio ads, Facebook ads,
00:39:19.620
flyers they put out. And it just looks like ordinary marketing materials, but it's to transport them
00:39:26.980
up and into the United States. And the prices are what for them is basically their whole life savings,
00:39:33.600
um, which is another human tragedy and all of this, but, but, um, that money finding its way into the
00:39:41.620
pockets of the most evil, vicious people in America. That's terrible. Not in America,
00:39:46.700
in the Americas, the whole hemisphere. Right. And we know that, uh, over 2 million
00:39:53.560
illegal immigrants across that border this year. Uh, some of them apprehended, some of them not.
00:40:01.060
And we also know that the Biden administration for the first time ever in mass is moving illegal
00:40:08.380
immigrants, uh, across the country that you were talking about Mark Morgan, the former, uh, head of,
00:40:14.160
uh, customs and border protection talking about every, every town in this, uh, this country is a
00:40:20.780
border town. He's never been more correct because of these flights that the Biden administration is
00:40:28.120
organizing to fly illegals from the border to unsuspecting towns and cities all over. And I mean,
00:40:36.620
all over the country, it's outrageous. And they're trying to do it secretly. It is outrageous. They're
00:40:43.060
doing it in the middle of the night. They're literally giving their contractors instructions.
00:40:47.260
Don't talk to the media. Don't tell anybody so much for open government there. Uh, I heard from
00:40:52.400
Congressman John Katko, the ranking Republican on house homeland security yesterday. And he said,
00:40:58.300
they're not answering their questions, congressional questions about this subject. I mean, they're
00:41:03.020
burying it, they're hiding it. And it's one of the, the positive consequences, I think of the
00:41:07.980
Republicans taking over the house and, or the Senate at the end of this year is that they're going to
00:41:13.600
have to, they're Congress. That's going to be very insistent on answering these questions. And I think
00:41:19.320
I know that, that there are a lot of people in these organizations who want to answer the questions.
00:41:26.280
Well, that's the thing I I'm, there was a terrific clip of a number of border patrol, uh, agents
00:41:33.980
talking with their top leaders, including, uh, Mayorkas, uh, who, by the way, I, to me is like
00:41:43.280
putting an arsonist in charge of a fire department. I don't get what that is all about. I don't know
00:41:48.600
how the man was ever confirmed, but well, I do know, but it's stunning that he was confirmed.
00:41:54.420
I'll put it that way. It does border patrol agents. They haven't got a job right now because
00:42:00.800
their goals, everything, their, their imperatives are absolutely the inverse, uh, the, uh, inverse
00:42:09.960
of what this administration wants done, which is an open border. And as many illegal immigrants
00:42:15.780
across that border as possible, as many drugs, uh, as many sex traffickers, you know, it's your border.
00:42:22.320
Yeah. So let's talk about that, Lou. Um, they can't get rid of ice. They can't get rid of CBT,
00:42:31.480
right? So what are they doing? They're issuing memos that deprioritize actually doing their job.
00:42:37.440
If you look at the deportations from ice, it went from 185,000 last year, two years ago to 55,000
00:42:46.600
last year, a 70% decline. They're not deporting anybody. And that's their mission. And this
00:42:53.940
administration is intentionally debilitating these agencies internally, setting up confusing
00:43:01.080
and incoherent meet, uh, management structures with instructions that tie their hands. It's like,
00:43:07.900
if you were a marathon runner, Lou, um, and the gun is about to go off to start the race,
00:43:12.660
the last thing you do is you lean down and you tie your shoelaces together. That is exactly what's
00:43:18.820
going on with this. It is intentional, just like the border, what you and I call a crisis.
00:43:25.600
They call policy. They want what's happening at the border to happen at the border. This is the plan.
00:43:32.580
This isn't a mistake. This is their policy. They want to undermine America. They don't believe
00:43:38.700
America is exceptional. They don't believe we should have borders. They don't believe that,
00:43:43.760
um, we should enforce our own laws. And so they don't. And even Democrats, even since the spring
00:43:51.760
of 2021, right after Biden was sworn in, have disagreed with Biden's own policy. Democrats in
00:44:00.260
polling have disagreed with it. So, you know, Americans across the spectrum don't support the
00:44:06.760
debilitating of ICE, of CDP. And we need to pray for these folks, especially the ones sticking it out
00:44:14.180
through this administration to still be there and do what they can for us, for you and for me and for
00:44:19.480
everybody listening to protect us. They're doing a tough job in a tough environment with a leadership
00:44:26.320
like Secretary Mayorkas that loathes them. And that's, that's a hard way to get up and go to work
00:44:32.280
when you know your boss really wishes you didn't exist. Exactly. Well, why aren't the minority
00:44:38.300
communities in this country, you know, you and I've talked about it previously, the people who are
00:44:44.040
most injured, uh, are those whose jobs are taken by, uh, people coming in who are, uh, low, low skilled,
00:44:53.280
low educated, uh, and are, are thrilled to make a dollar when we have citizens here who are, you know,
00:45:02.660
at entry level on up who are just being badly damaged. It's, it's, it's, it's, to me, it's staggering
00:45:10.020
that minorities are not in greater protest of what this administration is doing. Yeah. So,
00:45:15.880
so let's, uh, I appreciate you raising that Lou. It's one of my pet peeves on both sides of the
00:45:22.940
aisle. There are Republicans who don't want to talk to this. You know that very well because it
00:45:28.620
offends their big business in the wall street journal and so forth. And, um, the fact of the
00:45:33.480
matter is the people hurt the most and hurt first by large scale, illegal immigration are poor Americans
00:45:41.560
who we should care about who we, I believe at least have a moral obligation to structure policies to
00:45:47.500
not hurt them. And, uh, and, and there's numbers to prove this at the end of 2019, before the COVID
00:45:54.820
hysteria hit, we reached, and I never saw this written about anywhere. We reached the lowest recorded
00:46:03.000
poverty rate in American history since they began recording that statistic under Donald Trump. How do we
00:46:11.120
get there? We got there because of deregulation and tax cuts, but that wasn't enough. That didn't
00:46:18.740
get there, especially for poor people. It was the enforcement of our immigration laws that did the
00:46:25.120
job for the poor people. That's how you drive the poverty rate down is because they could, businesses
00:46:31.460
couldn't just hire from an unlimited pool. They had to pay a little more. They had to pay approximately
00:46:37.460
six or 8% more if I remember my data directly from them to poor people. They did better in 2019 in
00:46:45.380
terms of improvement, the poorest Americans than any other quintile, as we would look at it statistically
00:46:52.320
of Americans in the country. And that's as it should be. That's as it should be. We want the poorest
00:46:58.900
Americans to do better. And they got off the couch. You remember the lowest black unemployment,
00:47:03.540
lowest Hispanic unemployment in history at that time. And that's real progress. That's the benefit
00:47:11.760
economically of enforcing our immigration laws is you open the door, not for welfare, but for
00:47:18.160
opportunity for our own poor people to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps. And our poor
00:47:26.540
people did that in America in 2017, 18 and 19. And importantly, and I do want to say, we did on my
00:47:36.660
show report those, those improvements under Donald Trump, including the fact that broadly across the
00:47:45.780
economy, the Trump administration succeeded in raising wages for the first time. Wages, real wages had been
00:47:54.560
stagnant in this country for 20 years, 20 years. And he changed, he changed the direction for the lower
00:48:06.620
income Americans, for the middle class, the forgotten Americans, too often who are middle class, who have
00:48:13.820
families who work, go to work every day, the backbone of this country. It's when I think about the people
00:48:22.240
who were upset because he was a mean tweeter, I think, how puerile can a society be? How many
00:48:28.980
buttercups can one nation afford, really? But, you know, it's just, it's great that you are involved in
00:48:36.460
this initiative and that you are succeeding. And I want to, I want to just ask you, what is next for both
00:48:45.280
this, for the Arizona Attorney General, the state of Arizona, and how far are you going to be able to
00:48:52.840
get both energy and motivation behind this constitutional basis for each state to defend
00:49:02.020
a border that the Biden administration doesn't even acknowledge exists?
00:49:07.020
Yeah, they won't even say the word crisis. So you used an important word there, Lou,
00:49:14.080
constitutional. I want to be really clear to your listeners, this is not immigration law. This is not
00:49:20.100
immigration law. This is a constitutional power completely separate from immigration law. States,
00:49:27.260
according to the Supreme Court, are not allowed on their own authority anyway, to enforce immigration law
00:49:33.200
under a ruling in 2012, ironically, Arizona v. U.S. And, but this power was one that states kept to
00:49:42.780
defend themselves. It's constitutional power. And so now, as you noted, what happens? What happens is
00:49:49.340
people turn and ask Doug Ducey. They ask Greg Abbott. Those are the logical people to turn to
00:49:54.660
immediately. Are you going to actually protect our border instead of just complaining about Joe Biden not
00:50:01.480
protecting it? You have the power, you have the authority, so don't you have the responsibility?
00:50:07.060
And the, and the follow-on to that is, as I noted, this is spilling into the campaigns of 2022.
00:50:13.740
Both states' governor's elections are happening this year. And this is, in Arizona at least, I truly
00:50:20.840
believe no one will get elected the next Arizona governor without committing to do this. And Texas is a
00:50:28.500
little different animal, but I think that it's going to be, it's going to be politically very difficult
00:50:34.000
for them to avoid moving forward, especially once Arizona's doing it. I mean, they'll just,
00:50:40.720
you know, they'll be being left behind. They'll be, it's just like Ron DeSantis pushing harder than
00:50:45.720
Greg Abbott. Here you'll have Arizona pushing harder than Greg Abbott. And, and I've known Greg for a dozen
00:50:52.080
years. I don't think that's a position he really wants to be in. So I, you know, that isn't how
00:50:57.740
decision-making should happen, Lou, but I do think the pressure is going to keep turning up now.
00:51:03.720
And this legal opinion does an enormous service to those of us in this country, like you and me,
00:51:09.760
who want to find a way to defend our borders. States have sovereignty, and this is one of the
00:51:15.820
elements of sovereignty that they have preserved for themselves. They should use it.
00:51:20.340
Well, Ken, as always, thank you for bringing your knowledge, your expertise, your insight
00:51:28.240
to, to the Great America Show. We're, we're deeply appreciative. Want to congratulate you
00:51:34.560
and Russ Vaught and the Center for Renewing America for doing so. And we wish you all great success and
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good luck as you move forward and come back soon and keep us up to date, if you will.
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Absolutely, Lou. It's great to be with you as always.
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Thank you. Ken Cuccinelli. And that's it for this edition of the Great America Show. Thanks for
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being with us. See you tomorrow. Join us again tomorrow for the Great America Podcast. Stay in
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the fight. Truth, justice, and the American way will prevail against all enemies, against all odds.