REP. BIGGS ON THE HISTORIC GOP REFORMS OF THE 118TH CONGRESS. HE DESCRIBES THE TENSE NEGOTIATIONS THAT CHANGED AMERICAN HISTORY
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Summary
Andy Biggs of Arizona is a former chairman of the Freedom Caucus and serves in both the House Oversight and Judiciary committees. He led the fight last week to create greater accountability, transparency and better representation in Congress, and in the end, the Republic and the American people won out.
Transcript
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Hello, everybody. I'm Lou Dobbs, and welcome to The Great America Show. Great to have you with us
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today. Our guest today is the man who led the 20 reformers of the 118th Congress, and we hope all
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Congresses in the years ahead. Those reforms include giving our representatives the opportunity
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to amend legislation, time to read legislation before it comes up for a vote. How about that?
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And the motion to vacate, that is to call for a vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
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Greater representation on committees for the Freedom Caucus members, just some of the reforms
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won in the fight for Speaker that ended last Friday night. Our guest is Congressman Andy Biggs of
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Arizona. He's a former chairman of the Freedom Caucus. He serves in both the House oversight
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and judiciary committees, and he led the fight last week to create greater accountability,
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transparency, and better representation in Congress. It was a grueling debate, and in the end,
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the Republic and the American people won out, largely because a handful of representatives
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led by Biggs persevered and stood up against the status quo. Congratulations, Congressman,
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and after that hard-fought negotiation, how are you feeling?
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Thank you, Lou. That's very kind. I feel optimistic, but I temper my optimism, but I'm optimistic. By the way,
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I'll just tell you that the 20 people were great, worked hard, held on, and just the pressure that was
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levied on some of those people was absolutely, you know, irrationally so. But, you know, we feel and hope
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that we got something done that will be meaningful and lasting.
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Well, I have to say, as we sit here right now, I think what you accomplished was extraordinary.
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I don't think there is any way in which what you did achieve, you and the 20 did, it's reforming Congress.
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It's opened up the processes of Congress. I think most people, had it not been for you and your band of
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Freedom Caucus members, they wouldn't know that our congressmen weren't voting on every bill,
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you know, and reading every bill, and being involved in every piece of legislation, but rather treated like
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rubber stamps by the membership, primarily RINO leadership, primarily Marxist-DEM leadership.
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Yeah, Lou, I'm not going to kid anybody. If I would have believed that we could get that,
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I would have been totally sanguine. But, you know, it's just, you start thinking about it,
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I don't think people understood exactly what you're saying. I did not know before I came to Congress
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that members of Congress don't take a roll call vote on every bill. Had no idea. And we tried six
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years ago to make a change. And we came close within probably 15 votes or so, but we couldn't make the
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change. And you start looking and you say, well, well, how come they have these massive 4,000 page
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bills, and then they don't give you time to read it? Well, that's because they don't want you to read
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it. And it's because they're giving Christmas trees out to everybody, ornaments on every Christmas tree.
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So the point is, what your wealth is well taken. I'm hopeful that that this is going to make a
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significant, long-lasting change in Congress. And now it's up to us to, as members of Congress,
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to keep pushing to enforce it and make sure those rules remain in place and are, you know,
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enforced. Because if they're not enforced, Lou, then it was for naught.
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Right. And of course, enforcement here requires the leadership of Kevin McCarthy,
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the Speaker of the 118th Congress. I have to say, he's off to a very good beginning. And I think
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Kevin McCarthy, I'll just tell you straight out, Congressman Biggs, I think he owes the opportunity
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to succeed at an unprecedented level directly to you and the Freedom Caucus 20. Your reaction?
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Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, I kind of indicated to him, you know, we want you to succeed.
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We want you to succeed. So go out and do it. And he's done some good things, Lou. I mean,
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he's already talked about he's going to take off Schiff. He's going to take off Ilhan Omar. He's
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going to take off Swalwell off their committees and change him to different committees. That's
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appropriate. That's necessary. We've already run the IRS bill. We've got some other bills that are
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going to be coming through the rest of this week that are consistent with what we think is a good,
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solid Republican agenda. He's, you know, we've got a Freedom Caucus guy who's now the chair of the
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Homeland Security, a Freedom Caucus guy who's chair of judiciary. And we're seeing a more proportional
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representation of the more conservative wing of the conference. And I believe, I believe that he is
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going to, he's got a shot to really be a speaker that has had a conversion and, and live that live by
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this new faith, which would be transparency, openness, a more conservative, more constitutionally
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oriented Congress. I believe that that can happen. I'm, I'm, I'm in on it. I'm in on it, Lou.
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Well, good, because you created that opportunity. Uh, and I know there's that you wanted more and
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I'm sure Kevin McCarthy wanted to give up less, but that is this, that is the notion of a grand
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bargain. Uh, when everybody gets exactly what they wanted, something's askew, uh, because otherwise
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there wouldn't have been a conflict to begin with. I I'm, I'm just, uh, I'm, I'm not a, in any way,
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a Pollyanna, uh, or a cynic, but I am in point of fact, a skeptic and I bring critical judgment to,
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to most of my opinions. I'm not perfect in that regard as, as, uh, as you would well know,
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but I really believe this, uh, represents an immense opportunity for the American people,
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for the Republic. And frankly, if it hadn't happened the way it did, and you had gone to that
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final day of the week, uh, almost to the, to the point of, uh, passing midnight to really resolve
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this. Uh, what was it around? It was just after midnight, I guess it was, uh, when you guys came
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to the determination, you could make a deal. Uh, I, I just think that it was so important to go the
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full distance. Uh, and you, and I know every day you were under pressure to wrap it up. Uh, so good
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on you for not doing so. Uh, were you ever tempted to do that? Uh, I can say that I was not, um,
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and, and try to instill that in my, my colleagues, but, but the reality of it, Lou is a lot of people
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were telling me, this is messy, Andy, this is embarrassing. You're a clown and all this stuff.
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And this is coming from donors and, and some, some high profile people. And, uh, and, but the,
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you know, Lou, uh, we knew that if you want to make change that, that has some kind of lasting
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significance, you cannot, the only way you would get it is to hold out and actually demonstrate
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the will to hold out because, because we, by the way, we gave most of these, this rules package to
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Mr. McCarthy last July, but he wasn't interested because he thought he was going to have a red wave.
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You know, and until, until you demonstrate that you can, you can deny somebody and you have the will
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to do it, even at the point of perhaps risking political annihilation of yourself, you cannot
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accomplish the great thing. Well, there's an old saying that I like, uh, as you know, I was born in
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Texas and, uh, grew up out West. So this was a saying that always, uh, you know, I, I thought of
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as a young fellow growing up, uh, there are some fights just worth having. And this was a fight worth
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having no matter the outcome. This is a fight that had to be. And because of your integrity, uh, your
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values and your courage, this happened. And that is something no one will ever be able to deny you.
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It is a hallmark, uh, of, uh, your courage, uh, in the annals of congressional history, uh, yours and
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the 20, uh, freedom caucus, uh, reformers. So I, I just want to say that out loud for everybody to
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hear how important this man and what he did is to all of us. Uh, now I want to know,
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was there more you wanted that you thought was within your grasp that just, you just didn't quite
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get. Um, you know, it was fluid, but I will just tell you that there's some things that I think
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in the deal itself or in the rules package that we just voted on yesterday that I wished would have
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been just a little bit, uh, firmer. So for instance, the, the germaneness, now this is probably getting
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into the weeds for, for folks who a little bit, but germaneness, I thought has a pretty good,
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it has a point of order. It has probably as good of a, of a mechanism of accountability as you could
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get. But the, but the single subject rule is, is too, too weak. I mean, it's a step in the right
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direction, but it doesn't have that same triggering mechanism of responsibility and accountability that
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the germaneness rule has. Now, why is that important? Because those two, those two types,
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uh, those two rules in and of themselves, there's what gives you protection so that when you go down
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and you think you're going to vote on a, um, let's say a, uh, to build a freeway or freeway funding
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and someone throws in $30 billion to go to Ukraine, um, those two bill, those two rules will
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prevent that from happening. And so I w I wanted a little bit tighter language. And I know I'm
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getting into the weeds here, but, but, you know, stuff like that, uh, really, uh, really can make
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a difference. But, but by and large, uh, the, the notion of, of the appropriations process,
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moving, setting the baseline back a couple of years, giving us a chance to, um, uh, you know,
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have an open debate on the, on things to read the bills. I would have liked a longer period of time
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to read the bills. Those are little bitty things, you know, and my own thing, Lewis is,
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um, I, I doubted whether Kevin McCarthy was the guy who should be the speaker of the house.
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I got a whole list of, of reasons why, but he, it was obvious to us that he was going to get the
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votes at the end. And so at that point, um, it was time to just say, okay, uh, you got the votes
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and, and these rules are in place and there's going to be some insight, exciting things happen.
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And, uh, we wish you well, it's a clean slate for us. You're starting over anew. Let's see if you
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can, uh, if you, if your conversion is a real long lasting conversion and we pray that it is.
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Well, the, the motion to vacate, uh, is helpful to assuring accountability in that regard, uh, again,
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to the credit, uh, your credit and that of the 20, uh, I, I, I, it seemed at various points that it
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was, uh, that the six of you, there were six of you, it seemed to me who were the core of it all.
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Uh, am I right about that? Well, there were, there were six of us hanging on there at the end.
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Um, and, and, and so it became kind of an interesting dynamic there, uh, as you, as you
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get to that, but I would say that everybody played their role. I mean, so, uh, I tip my hat to like a
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Dan Bishop and a Chip Roy and Scott Perry, who, who, um, said, well, let's see what else we can get,
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uh, negotiation wise. So they negotiated a lot of these things, uh, and, and worked on the
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specific language and then some outside side agreements that, that some people say they're
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an addendum. They're not an addendum to the rules at all. It's, it's just how you, uh, internally in
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the house, uh, on the Republican conference, what are you going to do? So, so I tip my hat to all of
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those people and, and, and just, I really tip my hat to, to, uh, Matt Gates, Lauren Boebert,
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Matt Rosendale, Eli Crane, what an, what an amazing freshman and Bob Good, who just really,
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um, held the line and said, and, and we could deny it. We could deny it. And then, and then when,
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when things started happening and, and he had the votes or we knew he'd have the votes on Monday,
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it was like, okay, now, now let's finish this thing off. And, and we did. And I'm grateful
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they, they were great. They were great to work with. Watching the pressure that Matt,
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uh, Gates and Lauren Boebert were in and my hats off to all of you. Uh, but to, at one point you
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walked over, uh, and, and stood in front of them and I couldn't tell if you were trying to protect
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them or if you had something to say, or if you were counseling, what, what was, uh, what were you
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doing at that moment, that dramatic moment in the, in the proceedings? Well, I mean, what was
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happening is, is you saw that and there's, there's dozens of people, um, roaring at them and I, and I
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was trying to protect them. That's what I was trying to do, get in the way and try to, to, to push these
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people back a little bit. And, um, and, but, you know, I didn't want any more, I didn't want physical,
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but I also, you know, some of these people were saying outrageous things and I'm not trying to
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live this up. I mean, it's time for us to, to, to move on and, and try to heal this thing. But I mean,
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I was just trying to, trying to ameliorate and protect my friends who had been so faithful.
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Yeah. And, and, and Lauren, Lauren Boebert and, and Matt Gaetz, uh, they were pivotal at the end and
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Matt Gaetz, uh, rushing up, uh, into the well and changing his, uh, vote, uh, on, uh, the motion to
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adjourn, uh, that, that set it, uh, set it all off for conclusion. All of you voting, uh, present,
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which gave McCarthy the opportunity to win the majority. Uh, did, did president Trump,
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uh, at any point talk with you? Did you talk with him? Um, he did place a call to me, um,
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Friday evening, Friday evening, actually, uh, during the recess time, I was actually walking out of my,
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my house to drive down here to the Capitol when he called and we, we talked for about 20 minutes.
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And, and were you, you and he simpatico, uh, in what should be done and how it should go?
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Well, Lou, I don't want to talk about a personal conversation I had with,
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with the former president Trump. Um, just, I'll just let you know that I expressed my affection
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toward him and he expressed his affection toward me as our conversation wrapped, but, um,
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that's it. And that's all I really want to want to say about that private conversation.
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Well, I understand that. Uh, I've had a few conversations with president Trump myself and
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when they end that way, that's always a positive sign. Uh, and it is, uh, it's, uh, it's instructive
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in and of itself. I want to turn to, if I may, you're, because you're suggesting this. And as you
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say, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, it's why I am fully, uh, supportive of speaker, uh,
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McCarthy, because it is, as you said, a time for healing, but I'd like to understand, uh,
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if I can, if McCarthy were to get wobbly, uh, in anything that in your judgment or that of your,
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your, your colleagues, do you believe the motion to vacate is firm enough? Is it what you wanted?
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Well, I was never, okay. So first I'll begin by saying, I don't think he's going to get wobbly.
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I don't, I think he's going to be pretty solid and, and, and I think we're going to help him
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remain solid. You know, we, we kind of wrap our arms around him and say, let's, let's, let's get
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the job done and let's do it, um, and go forward. We're in the unlikely case. I, I personally have
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never been a big believer that the motion to vacate, um, was going to be, uh, you know, the,
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the panacea, uh, and, uh, you know, I think, but it is helpful. I think it's probably helpful,
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but, but I mean, if, if you, if you couldn't take him out to begin with, it'd be highly unlikely
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unless he did something really, really unusual, um, that, that, that would ever be triggered. And,
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and I mean, the bottom line is, I think more, Lou, quite frankly, in my opinion,
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more effectively are those rules that get into place on appropriations, on debate,
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on the single subject, on the germaneness, all of those, you know, those are actually going to
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constrain, um, any leader. We, we said, look, whether it's you, Kevin, Mr. McCarthy or anybody
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else, Speaker McCarthy, anybody else, we, we want anybody to be tied to these rules. Um, it was,
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if it was my favorite candidate, if it was me, I should be tied to those same rules,
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actually the house. So the house could actually operate and function. So, yeah, I think, I think
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that motion to vacate is important. I think it's, it's, it's solid, but some of my colleagues really
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put the hope in that. And, and I'm, I'm a little less sanguine about, about, um, uh, emotion to vacate
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being, being, being end all. But now I would say this, I think you're right. It's helpful. It is
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helpful. It's helpful. And I, I'm not among those who thought, by the way, I'm not a person who thinks
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any of this is a panacea because, uh, in my experience, uh, as a journalist and an opinion
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host, uh, over many, many decades now, if you don't, if you do not have an assemblage of people who
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have the, the heart, the courage, the values, uh, and the integrity, uh, there is no law, there is no
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rule on earth that can, uh, can prevent, uh, can prevent evil. I'll put it that way. Uh, and, uh, but it
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certainly does, uh, provide a guidepost for everyone. I'd like to turn to a couple of things very quickly
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here, if I may, Congressman, uh, you tweeted out about, uh, well, we, we, we spoke here initially,
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you talked about, uh, uh, green, uh, taking over Homeland Security, uh, the former, uh, special
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forces, uh, doctor, uh, representative from Tennessee, taking over Homeland Security. Dan Crenshaw
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is out. Let me begin by saying to you, Dan Crenshaw moving off that committee is that losing that
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chairmanship is a wonderful thing. I think the man is, uh, he is John McCain, uh, personified for
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the Republican party. He's endeared to the left because he fights the right. Uh, and that is to me
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not, not, uh, uh, it is not ideal. Uh, I do think that Mark Green will be terrific. Your thoughts.
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Yeah, I'm very excited for, for Mark. Um, he's, he's a good guy. I tell him all the time. You're a
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but he's going to be good. And he understands also things like that, that the border security
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comes under that Homeland Security. And he and I've talked about the border. He's been down to
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the border with me. I've shown him, I've, uh, you know, so I've shown him a lot of stuff and I'm
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hopeful that we'll see, uh, not just, um, uh, uh, uh, restoration of prestige for America internationally,
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but also a strengthening of the American border. Yeah, I, I think you're exactly right. And I,
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I want to get your sense too, of, you know, two, uh, two great Americans. And that is of course,
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Jim Jordan and, uh, uh, and James Comer, uh, Comer leading oversight and, uh, Jordan leading
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judiciary and the new church to always, it's being styled subcommittee, uh, going after the
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investigators, if you will, who have, who are creating more crimes than those they are
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investigating. Uh, your thoughts about how strong their role is, how well positioned they
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are, uh, to get done the people's business. Well, they're both very capable, uh, not just
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capable, they're talented and skilled. Um, and I, I mean, I've been talking to both of
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them for months. Um, we've sent, uh, you know, preservation letters there. They're, they're
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ready to get up and rolling and, and do this. I, I believe, and, and one of the things I was
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doing between, uh, meetings and whatnot today is, is writing down, uh, some of the, some
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of the examples of, of abuse of the, of the federal police state against Americans over
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the last six years and, and beyond actually longer than that. These guys know this, they
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know it very well. Um, and they're, you know, they're chomping at the bit to get going, but
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they've already been organizing, uh, our committees, uh, to be ready to, to, to go. And I'm, I think
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it's going to be off awfully strong and it's going to be an awesome presentation. And we
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got to get to the bottom of this Lou, because as you know, we're, we're, we're talking dire
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straits what's happening in this country today. And to that point, Congressman, the federal
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government is rife with political corruption and corruption of all sorts, but the deep state,
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uh, is a, is now aligned with the, the Marxist Dems who control the Democrat party, this white
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house, and they mean to destroy this nation. I don't believe anyone in your conference should
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doubt that truth. Uh, at this point, do you believe, well, let me ask you this way. What do you
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believe will be required on the part of the Congress? And I'm putting a lot on the Congress
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because you're the only, uh, countervailing influence to this, this madness of a, an administrative
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regime, uh, and, uh, the, and the U S Senate. Well, I think it's, what do you think it's going
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to take? Well, we're going to have to fight and we're going to have to use every procedural
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tool. And, and I know that some people thought that was a clown show last week, but I will tell
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you one thing that I think that besides the rules and everything else effectively, that effective,
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uh, reward is the emotional boost. I think to Americans who finally saw people standing up to
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fight against the status quo. And we have got to do stuff like that on a regular basis, use the
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procedural tools that we have to actually step up and fight. Um, whether it's the Senate or the,
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or the white house, we have to use the tools that are left. I mean, we got emasculated with,
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with the, uh, the loss of the, of the budgetary tools when, when the, uh, uh, omnibus went through.
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So we have got to stand up and use those tools, procedural tools and do them courageously.
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And even though the pressure may be relentless to have the will, that's what it takes. It takes
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the will and the leadership to stand up and say, no more, no more. And we're going to stop you.
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And it would, you can do all, whatever you want. You can do performance art, perform, you know,
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just perform. But if you're not serious and don't have the will, uh, and desire and courage to do
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it, then you'll lose every time. Yeah. I hope everyone, uh, in every Republican in the conference
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understands that this is a time, as you say, to perform. Uh, it is a time not only to fight,
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it is a time to win. Uh, it is not only a time to, uh, uh, make the American people understand
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the commitment to the values that, uh, that you all share, but it is also time, uh, to make sure
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that everyone's at work. Uh, I can't remember who it was in the midst of the debate talking about,
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uh, we can take four days to have this, uh, debate over the, the rules. Uh, but we,
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people don't understand. We, we weren't working for six months of 2022. That has to stop too.
00:25:33.220
There has to be engagement. This is not a sinecure that the American people sent everyone to Congress
00:25:38.820
for. This is a job for the Republican party. They've got to be out. They've got to outsmart
00:25:43.800
the Democrats. They've got to outwork them. And I think that we saw that energy to do just that
00:25:50.300
last week. Thanks to you and your colleagues for standing up and standing tall and firm.
00:25:57.900
We appreciate it so much, Congressman. We always, as you know, give our guests the last word
00:26:02.400
your concluding thoughts, if you would, sir. Well, thank you, Lou. And I, and I would just
00:26:06.600
conclude by saying I'm hopeful, uh, you know, and I'm, I, I'm really believe we can get some
00:26:12.440
good things done, but I also want to just take a moment to tip my hat to you for your faithfulness,
00:26:17.380
your, your adherence to principle and patriotism. Uh, you're, you've been there through sunshine and
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rain, and, uh, I really appreciate that. And I just want to tip my hat to you, Lou.
00:26:28.360
Well, you're very kind. And I thank you for those kind words. I appreciate it. Uh, Congressman,
00:26:33.660
thanks for taking time. I know you're just as busy as you can possibly be. We thank you for your time
00:26:38.840
and, uh, all that you're doing for this great country of ours. Congressman Andy Biggs, a true,
00:26:44.560
true, uh, hero, uh, in this, uh, in this hour, uh, when we desperately need heroes. Thanks so much.
00:26:52.700
God bless you. Thank you. God bless you too. Congressman Andy Biggs. Thanks everybody for
00:26:58.000
being with us. And here tomorrow, another great American Congressman James Comer, chairman of the
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powerful house oversight committee, a committee that has a number of demanding challenges before it.
00:27:10.660
And among those challenges, investigating president Joe Biden and the accusations of rampant political
00:27:17.300
corruption throughout the federal government. That's here tomorrow. Please join us until then.
00:27:22.960
Thank you. God bless you. And God bless America.