The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1038 - Billy Corgan

00:00:08.000 Alright, we're live.

00:00:10.000 What's up?

00:00:11.000 I know, weird, right?

00:00:12.000 Yeah, here we go.

00:00:13.000 Nice to meet you, man.

00:00:13.000 Thank you.

00:00:14.000 Yeah, I can't believe we've never met.

00:00:15.000 Yeah, well, I've been a fan of your music for a long time, so it's kind of cool to see you in person.

00:00:21.000 Conversely, so it's cool.

00:00:23.000 So, I mean, I don't mean to just jump right into this, but it kind of freaked me out that you have involvement in pro wrestling.

00:00:30.000 Do you own the NWA? Yeah, I bought the National Wrestling Alliance, the oldest brand in the world.

00:00:35.000 I was working for TNA, you know, as president for a hot second, then I got fired, and...

00:00:40.000 You were president of TNA? Yeah, yeah, that's a crazy story.

00:00:43.000 I don't know how much you want to get into that.

00:00:44.000 Get into it!

00:00:46.000 Well, you know, Dixie Carter owned TNA. I knew her through the years. 0.99

00:00:51.000 I used to go to shows and stuff like that.

00:00:53.000 And at some point they approached me about...

00:00:58.000 I said no.

00:00:59.000 Then they offered me a job.

00:01:00.000 I started working for the company.

00:01:01.000 Then they started having money problems and started putting money in.

00:01:04.000 And through the contrivance of all that, then I started getting more power in the company and putting in more money.

00:01:09.000 So then it became like, well, if I'm going to put in all this money and I'm going to have all this power, I want to run the show.

00:01:14.000 They basically said that was cool, and then the minute I had the spot, it was like Game of Thrones.

00:01:18.000 They all started to kind of kill me off.

00:01:21.000 Wrestling's weird because you have this weird mix of reality and fantasy, and it's hard sometimes to know where one thing...

00:01:28.000 And the fans get into both the behind-the-scenes and the fantasy, so no one's quite sure sometimes where the blur is.

00:01:34.000 Yeah, I got pretty crazy for a while.

00:01:36.000 There's a lawsuit.

00:01:38.000 A real lawsuit?

00:02:04.000 Whoa.

00:02:06.000 Whoa.

00:02:17.000 That sounds like some double-cross wrestling type stuff.

00:02:19.000 Yeah, so it'd be like if you did a contract with me, and then I sued you, and then the judge says, well, even though Joe had a California lawyer signed, it's illegal under California law, so therefore the contract's meaningless.

00:02:32.000 It was bizarre.

00:02:33.000 How does one go from smashing pumpkins to pro wrestling and then go so deep that you're like an owner?

00:02:40.000 Yeah, I know.

00:02:41.000 It's pretty wild.

00:02:43.000 Unexpected.

00:02:45.000 For a lot of people, right?

00:02:46.000 Yeah, yeah, no, I get that a lot.

00:02:47.000 And I've actually learned over time it's just best to keep the worlds separate.

00:02:52.000 Because the music fans don't want to hear anything about the wrestling thing.

00:02:55.000 I mean, they just don't want to hear.

00:02:57.000 They get that I'm a bit goofy, but they just don't want to hear about the wrestling thing.

00:03:01.000 They ask the worlds to be kept separate.

00:03:03.000 Did they ever get mad at you?

00:03:04.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:03:05.000 Oh, yeah.

00:03:06.000 I could imagine.

00:03:07.000 And you can appreciate it.

00:03:08.000 It kills the gimmick.

00:03:10.000 They want me to be this goth vampire guy or whatever, and then there's pro wrestling.

00:03:15.000 It just totally kills the gimmick.

00:03:18.000 It's really funny, though.

00:03:19.000 I think it's awesome.

00:03:20.000 I love it when people just get into what they like.

00:03:24.000 Well, that's something I appreciate about you, you know what I mean?

00:03:26.000 Like, I've watched where you guys go deep dives in MMA and other things.

00:03:29.000 It's like, I think it's cool to have multiple intras.

00:03:31.000 It's the Renaissance Man thing.

00:03:33.000 Yeah, well, I think for some reason people shy away from that because they think folks are going to be confused.

00:03:39.000 I don't care.

00:03:40.000 Yeah.

00:03:40.000 Good for you.

00:03:41.000 That's awesome.

00:03:42.000 Yeah.

00:03:43.000 Now, growing up in Chicago, there was a really rich wrestling history in Chicago growing up.

00:03:47.000 And my great-grandmother watched wrestling.

00:03:50.000 I mean, it was like I grew up in the—at four years old, I'm watching Dick the Bruiser on television.

00:03:53.000 And this is also the era of hockey fights and roller derby.

00:03:58.000 Oh, roller derby.

00:03:59.000 So we'd watch hockey, pro wrestling.

00:04:01.000 You know, it was in the family.

00:04:03.000 Yeah.

00:04:03.000 And then later I found out that my other great-grandmother also watched wrestling.

00:04:06.000 So both sides of the family, both great-grandmothers watching wrestling.

00:04:10.000 So it's just in the blood, I guess.

00:04:12.000 We like the carny of it all.

00:04:14.000 Well, I'm always amazed that roller derby never made, like, a serious comeback.

00:04:18.000 They tried.

00:04:18.000 They kind of did the, you know, the tattooed girls doing roller derby, hipstery type of thing.

00:04:23.000 It had a moment there.

00:04:25.000 Well, I had a friend who was into it, and she was that type. 0.54

00:04:29.000 I thought, well, that seems like something that would catch on today.

00:04:33.000 Yeah, they transitioned from like roller derby to suicide girls. 1.00

00:04:36.000 Yeah.

00:04:37.000 Right? 0.99

00:04:37.000 You gotta get a little hotter to be a suicide girl. 0.99

00:04:40.000 You could be thick and be a roller derby girl. 0.99

00:04:43.000 You could eat all the carbs you like.

00:04:45.000 The roller derby back in the day was huge.

00:04:47.000 Yeah.

00:04:47.000 I mean, they were doing like packed arenas and stuff.

00:04:49.000 That's crazy.

00:04:50.000 Well, it's fun to watch.

00:04:51.000 It's pretty wild.

00:04:52.000 You know, you see them go after each other and skating around.

00:04:55.000 It's pretty aggressive.

00:04:56.000 It's fun.

00:04:56.000 It's like racing plus fighting and hip-checking each other.

00:05:01.000 You know, it's early days memory, but I remember thinking, you know, there's something sort of hot about the whole thing.

00:05:07.000 Yes!

00:05:08.000 I think, especially in Chicago, the women's roller derby was bigger than the men's.

00:05:12.000 So that says something.

00:05:13.000 Yeah, I didn't even know there was men's roller derby.

00:05:15.000 Like, thinking of men's roller derby, I'm completely drawing a blank.

00:05:18.000 It's just, I always associate it with, like, tough women. 1.00

00:05:21.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:05:21.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:05:22.000 I think the women's thing actually had some sort of staying power, where the men's, I think, it didn't have the same allure, maybe?

00:05:28.000 Yeah, yeah, I guess.

00:05:31.000 You're my age.

00:05:32.000 You remember Killer Kowalski?

00:05:33.000 Of course, yeah.

00:05:34.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:05:35.000 I remember watching that when I was a kid in Boston, watching it on regular TV, you know?

00:05:41.000 Those guys were great.

00:05:42.000 I mean, it's a golden age.

00:05:45.000 It's like anything.

00:05:45.000 You can go back and sort of romanticize it.

00:05:47.000 And I think that's part of what we're trying to do.

00:05:50.000 That's the cool thing about the NWO is we actually possess that history.

00:05:54.000 And so our job is to sort of update it, you know, to bring that tough guy thing back into the modern world in a way that sort of doesn't insult the audience's intelligence.

00:06:04.000 So the NWA, is that older than the WWE? Yeah, yeah.

00:06:07.000 1948 is the NWA. Whoa!

00:06:09.000 Yeah.

00:06:10.000 And the cool thing about the NWA's history was you had all these rival promoters, including the McMahons in the Northeast, that eventually sort of formed a kind of ad hoc association.

00:06:21.000 to create a better business in essence get everybody on the same page and what they would do is they named one champ and the champ would rotate through the different territories come in and take on the whoever was the local guy they build up the local guy and then a guy like Ric Flair would come in and beat the local guy and it would always be like a bit of a scrum and then he'd come back for a second there would be a cage match and then Ric Flair would move on to the next territory and that's how those guys rotate around then everybody made more money Wow And then the government got involved at different points because there was collusion.

00:06:51.000 There you go.

00:06:52.000 There's Ric Flair with our belt, actually.

00:06:54.000 I follow him on Instagram.

00:06:55.000 Yeah.

00:06:56.000 Yeah, I mean, Ric and Dusty Rhodes are probably the two most prominent champs that the NWA had.

00:07:04.000 So just to be the owner of that history is so humbling for me as a fan.

00:07:08.000 It's like, wow.

00:07:09.000 That is so cool.

00:07:11.000 Yeah, that's pretty wild, actually.

00:07:12.000 He's quite a character, and still is, even on Instagram.

00:07:16.000 The stories are legendary.

00:07:19.000 The stories are absolutely legendary.

00:07:20.000 30 for 30 just came out about him, and I'm hearing it's one of the best ones ever made.

00:07:24.000 It just came out the other day, maybe two days ago.

00:07:26.000 Oh, cool.

00:07:27.000 And I'm not trying to speak for Rick, but there's an example of somebody where it's like...

00:07:34.000 The persona and the real-life person sort of blurred.

00:07:37.000 Right.

00:07:38.000 And it's hard to figure out who was who at any given time.

00:07:41.000 You know, that's the case like Dice Clay.

00:07:43.000 Oh, yeah.

00:07:44.000 Okay.

00:07:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:45.000 He used to be Andrew Silverstein and the Dice Man was a character that he used to do on stage.

00:07:49.000 Is he now become...

00:07:50.000 100% all day long.

00:07:52.000 Manson's...

00:07:52.000 My friend's Marilyn Manson.

00:07:53.000 He's the same way.

00:07:54.000 It's like they become...

00:07:55.000 Yeah.

00:07:56.000 They become the gimmick at some point and sometimes you're not sure who you're talking to.

00:07:59.000 But at some point you also have to respect that that's so intrinsic to their world that maybe it's almost easier just to become the gimmick.

00:08:07.000 Right.

00:08:08.000 Instead of having her to live... 0.92

00:08:10.000 You don't have to turn it on and off.

00:08:11.000 Yeah, I'm the other way.

00:08:12.000 I've gone out of my way to kill the gimmick.

00:08:15.000 Which really, it actually hurts business and people get mad at me.

00:08:18.000 Because they want the fantasy guy.

00:08:21.000 But I can't live like that.

00:08:22.000 Right.

00:08:23.000 It's impossible for me.

00:08:24.000 So they want you to be almost like a caricature.

00:08:26.000 Like a moody, quiet...

00:08:28.000 Sad, grumbling, you know, whatever.

00:08:31.000 That's why a lot of the stuff on me that's clickbait is based on the character that I both created and people want me to play.

00:08:39.000 One of the biggest memes of last year, or it was about a year ago, was like me at Disneyland.

00:08:43.000 I don't know if you've heard about that.

00:08:44.000 So, it's classic.

00:08:46.000 I was on a ride, and somebody took a picture of me on the ride.

00:08:49.000 And for whatever reason, I just don't look happy at that particular moment.

00:08:52.000 And I had this great...

00:08:54.000 In fact, the guy in the other room, my tour manager, Jug, was the guy sitting next to me in the photo.

00:08:58.000 And there you go.

00:08:59.000 Look.

00:09:00.000 And it was like massive, viral...

00:09:03.000 That's perfect!

00:09:07.000 And I had a great day.

00:09:09.000 I met tons of fans.

00:09:11.000 I took pictures with everyone.

00:09:13.000 I love Disneyland.

00:09:14.000 I had this great day.

00:09:14.000 And that became like this massive thing of like, see, he's miserable, even at Disneyland.

00:09:18.000 That's hilarious.

00:09:20.000 That's funny.

00:09:20.000 What a perfect picture.

00:09:21.000 Yeah, right?

00:09:22.000 And I even ended up on Family Guy.

00:09:25.000 See, look.

00:09:27.000 That's very funny, man.

00:09:28.000 That's very funny.

00:09:29.000 That's got to be exhausting, like having all these expectations that aren't necessarily, that don't totally align with who you really are.

00:09:36.000 It used to be, because I felt like, I don't know, as the keeper of my image or something, I felt this responsibility to sort of manage it, and at some point I just let it go.

00:09:45.000 Yeah.

00:09:46.000 Sorry to interrupt you, but it's like at some point I decided crazy was better for business.

00:09:50.000 Like, I'm okay with people thinking I'm nuts.

00:09:52.000 It's totally okay. 0.87

00:09:54.000 Because I'm the exact opposite of nuts. 0.98

00:09:56.000 You have to be, you're certainly eccentric. 0.97

00:09:58.000 Yeah, that's fine.

00:10:00.000 You know, I come from a long line of eccentrics.

00:10:02.000 I mean, my father was a drug dealing, gun-toting musician.

00:10:06.000 Was he really? 0.95

00:10:07.000 Madman.

00:10:08.000 Yeah.

00:10:08.000 Drug dealing?

00:10:09.000 Oh yeah.

00:10:10.000 What kind of drugs?

00:10:11.000 You name it.

00:10:12.000 Really?

00:10:13.000 Oh yeah.

00:10:13.000 Wow.

00:10:14.000 I mean, it's like quick stories.

00:10:17.000 Like when I was a kid, my father was a musician.

00:10:19.000 So I remember I used to like, I wasn't allowed to touch his guitars, but I was allowed to look at them.

00:10:25.000 So I remember one day I was walking past the bedroom and I saw a guitar case under the bed and I was like, oh, I wonder what that is.

00:10:29.000 Did he get a new guitar?

00:10:30.000 So I went, slipped the thing out and I flipped it open.

00:10:33.000 It was a sawed off shotgun in a guitar case.

00:10:36.000 Just laying there, you know, in the house.

00:10:38.000 Or, you know, I'd go to open something.

00:10:40.000 It would be like 10 pounds of weed, you know, it's just...

00:10:44.000 That was the world I grew up in.

00:10:46.000 Where'd you grow up?

00:10:47.000 Outside of Chicago, about an hour outside.

00:10:49.000 Wow.

00:10:50.000 But yeah, my dad got arrested a bunch of times and massive busts and drugs.

00:10:54.000 It's just crazy.

00:10:55.000 And people knocking on the door in the middle of the night and getting shot at.

00:10:59.000 My dad says he's been shot at nine times.

00:11:02.000 Never hit?

00:11:03.000 No.

00:11:04.000 That's lucky. 0.97

00:11:05.000 Stabbed two or three times.

00:11:07.000 Jesus Christ.

00:11:07.000 My favorite story, one of my favorite stories of my father was he was doing a drug deal and, or he was buying drugs, and so he stops somewhere and the guy got in the car.

00:11:20.000 And then the guy pulled out a gun and stuck it in his ribs, you know, and did, like, give me all your money.

00:11:24.000 And my dad looked at him and said, kill me. 1.00

00:11:27.000 Basically, because he was unhappy, so he figured, no, fuck it. 1.00

00:11:29.000 He said, just kill me. 1.00

00:11:30.000 And the guy flipped out and left the car. 0.99

00:11:33.000 Jesus Christ.

00:11:35.000 And he told you all this?

00:11:36.000 Oh, yeah.

00:11:36.000 I got a lot of these stories post-haste, yeah.

00:11:39.000 Is he still around?

00:11:40.000 Oh, yeah, he's still around.

00:11:41.000 He's still kicking.

00:11:43.000 How is it for him, like, seeing you as a son?

00:11:48.000 That is a weird thing because in the beginning he was very dismissive.

00:11:52.000 Of the music?

00:11:53.000 Yeah, he was not supportive of me playing the guitar.

00:11:55.000 And my father was a great musician.

00:11:57.000 I mean that with great sincerity.

00:11:58.000 My father was truly talented.

00:12:00.000 And in the beginning, he was not supportive at all, didn't want me to play the guitar, didn't want me involved in music.

00:12:08.000 And even after I put on my first album, which went on to be, at the time, was like the most successful independent album ever released.

00:12:14.000 So it wasn't like an insignificant moment in my life.

00:12:17.000 My dad just kind of shrugged his shoulders, was like, it's okay.

00:12:20.000 You know, it was like, what are you talking about?

00:12:22.000 Wow.

00:12:23.000 And if you know my early...

00:12:24.000 It's like, you know, it's guitar heavy.

00:12:26.000 There's cool stuff, solos.

00:12:27.000 And he was just like, eh.

00:12:29.000 It wasn't until my second album in the band blew up that he started to kind of change his tune.

00:12:33.000 Then he became more supportive.

00:12:34.000 Then he got really weirdly jealous.

00:12:37.000 And then he started doing weird things.

00:12:38.000 Like he'd call me and be like, if you need me to write you any songs.

00:12:42.000 Like I'm like number one.

00:12:44.000 And he's like, he's asking me to write songs.

00:12:46.000 It was so weird.

00:12:47.000 But then he was also on a lot of drugs.

00:12:48.000 And so there was that, you know, there's that interweave of like...

00:12:52.000 And weird stuff, like, you know, one day he calls me and he's like, my dad always played this cool 1964 Purple Flying V that was like his guitar, you know, and my dad to me was like a star and he still is in my mind.

00:13:06.000 So he told me one day, you know, when I die, you know, I'm going to give you my guitar.

00:13:11.000 And then fast forward four years later, he calls me up.

00:13:13.000 He's like, yeah, I'm going to put this guitar on eBay.

00:13:15.000 So do you want to buy it?

00:13:17.000 No!

00:13:18.000 Yeah, so I had to buy...

00:13:19.000 The guitar you're supposed to get when he dies.

00:13:21.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:13:21.000 Fuck. 1.00

00:13:22.000 Yeah, just weird stuff like that. 1.00

00:13:23.000 It's been a lot of that.

00:13:24.000 So anybody who's grown up in those types of situations knows what I'm talking about.

00:13:27.000 It's like wacky world.

00:13:28.000 You're never quite sure what angle is going on because the need for money depending on what situation is going on, you know? 0.97

00:13:38.000 Yeah, but you reinforce this idea that I've always had that everyone that I know that's interesting came from a fucked up childhood. 0.97

00:13:46.000 I couldn't argue against it. 0.97

00:13:48.000 It's hard.

00:13:48.000 Do you have children?

00:13:49.000 I have one son, yeah.

00:13:51.000 He's just gonna be two.

00:13:53.000 For me, it's a conflict because I take care of my kids and I'm around. 0.93

00:14:01.000 And I give them a lot of love, and they're not fucked up. 0.99

00:14:04.000 And I'm like, damn, are my kids going to be boring? 1.00

00:14:07.000 All of my friends, all of them, come from fucked up households. 1.00

00:14:12.000 It's all chaos. 0.99

00:14:13.000 And the pressure created these diamonds.

00:14:16.000 Yeah.

00:14:17.000 There's something to be said for the adversity. 0.98

00:14:19.000 And my dad would even say to me weird things like, it's good you had a fucked up childhood because it made you successful. 0.98

00:14:25.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:14:26.000 And I'm thinking like, I would have preferred like Disneyland with you.

00:14:30.000 You know what I mean?

00:14:31.000 Maybe I wouldn't have been miserable at Disneyland if it wasn't for you, dad.

00:14:35.000 Yeah.

00:14:35.000 Man, I think your story's amazing, though.

00:14:38.000 I mean, I know it probably sucked growing up like that, but damn, to be able to tell everybody your dad was this guitar-playing, gun-toting, drug-dealing psycho. 0.99

00:14:49.000 I mean, that's a badass story. 0.99

00:14:51.000 Yeah, I think you'll appreciate this in the gangster tradition.

00:14:55.000 So there was this thing that happened when I was probably about 10 or 12, where there was a local club, and my dad played there all the time.

00:15:03.000 And I came back to the house one day, and the house was full of smoky equipment.

00:15:09.000 You could smell smoke fire.

00:15:11.000 And he said, oh, the club burned down.

00:15:14.000 And so they had ran in the fire, retrieved the gear, some kind of story like that.

00:15:19.000 And so that was the story for years was he was eating across the street, pancakes at four in the morning and saw the club burn down.

00:15:25.000 Years later, I heard the real story.

00:15:26.000 He was in a car with a chick doing whatever, and he saw some mob guy walk in the club with gasoline.

00:15:34.000 Light the club on fire.

00:15:36.000 So he knew it was arson, but because he knew it was mob-related, he couldn't say anything.

00:15:40.000 And it's like every story is like there's the real story and the story I got when I was a kid.

00:15:45.000 Jesus.

00:15:45.000 So he ran into the fire just to get equipment?

00:15:48.000 Yeah, I think he ran in and got his guitar.

00:15:50.000 He was able to save his guitar.

00:15:53.000 And then, of course, the police came and questioned him.

00:15:59.000 Because they knew he was there on the scene or something.

00:16:02.000 And, of course, he said, I didn't see anything because he didn't want to die.

00:16:06.000 Because, you know, Chicago with the mob, I mean, forget about it.

00:16:08.000 Especially back then in the 70s, it was like they ran the town.

00:16:12.000 They got Kennedy elected.

00:16:14.000 Well, yeah.

00:16:14.000 I mean, the stories about Chicago are legendary.

00:16:17.000 You know what I mean?

00:16:18.000 Like, people used to come to Chicago back in the day.

00:16:20.000 It's a little bit different now.

00:16:21.000 People come back, man, the city's so clean.

00:16:23.000 It's so organized.

00:16:24.000 It's like, yeah, because it's run by, you know, capos all over the city.

00:16:28.000 You know, every ward had its capo.

00:16:31.000 Yeah, Chicago has this uniquely violent history.

00:16:34.000 And even to this day.

00:16:36.000 I mean, with what's going on the South Side with all the gang violence.

00:16:40.000 It's shocking to me as somebody who was born in Chicago, I still live in Chicago, that it's just like we've normalized this insane violence in this community.

00:16:50.000 Well, people don't even realize, I think most people have no idea how much gun violence goes on in Chicago.

00:16:54.000 I heard the other day, I could be wrong and I'm sure he can find, but I think somebody said the other day, there's been 3,700 shootings in Chicago already this year.

00:17:04.000 And I think we're already over 600 gun fatalities.

00:17:07.000 And this is like every year now.

00:17:08.000 Wow.

00:17:09.000 I mean, I just...

00:17:10.000 And even Trump at some point floated out like maybe they should bring the National Guard.

00:17:13.000 I wish they would do something.

00:17:15.000 It's just such a...

00:17:16.000 This generational tragedy that just keeps going and nothing seems to happen.

00:17:21.000 Yeah, and it seems to have a lot of momentum behind it.

00:17:24.000 Like the murders, they make people have revenge murders, and then it just piles on top of each other.

00:17:31.000 And it doesn't seem like there's any stopping it in sight.

00:17:34.000 Well, here's the thing, and this is the classic tale.

00:17:37.000 Now, it was reported the other day that the carjackings in Chicago have gone up like 200%, and now those carjackings are filtering into the nice neighborhoods.

00:17:45.000 Ah.

00:17:46.000 So now you're gonna start seeing some action because now it's now it's blowing up past the sort of You know, I mean look at that the shot clock a person is shot every two minutes and 20 seconds a Person is murdered every 12 hours.

00:18:01.000 Oh two hours and 20 minutes a person is murdered every 12 hours and 23 minutes.

00:18:07.000 That's a lot Wow I Miss my home and I just you know I have a guy that I met when I was down there.

00:18:18.000 He was a driver.

00:18:18.000 He drove us around and he was saying that he used to be a cop and that what happened was they arrested some of the top-level drug dealers.

00:18:25.000 I've heard this exact same story.

00:18:27.000 And as soon as they did that, there became this power vacuum.

00:18:30.000 Yeah, for years, I got a little inside information.

00:18:33.000 For years, what I'd heard is that they had this sort of like, as long as you stay on this side of the street, we'll look the other way for this, but you've got to keep your people in line over here.

00:18:44.000 And I know enough people in the PD that that was sort of the general understanding. 0.93

00:18:49.000 I remember one time, because I knew somebody who worked in the gang task force, I was like, how come there's always whores on the bridge on Friday night? 1.00

00:18:57.000 Don't you guys see the 50 whores on the bridge? 1.00

00:18:59.000 And they said, no, that's where we tell all the whores to go, so we can protect them. 1.00

00:19:04.000 We'd rather have them there so we can keep an eye on them, and we know it's going to happen anyway, so better we control it. 0.97

00:19:09.000 So that was the way Chicago sort of operated, was like...

00:19:13.000 We'll tolerate crime up to this level and twice a year we'll run everybody in just to kind of make it look good in the paper.

00:19:20.000 And then apparently whatever they did that created this power vacuum.

00:19:23.000 That's just what I've heard.

00:19:24.000 I don't know empirically.

00:19:26.000 Well this guy was a former cop and the way he was describing it was pretty absolute.

00:19:29.000 He's like they made a mistake.

00:19:31.000 This solution that you were saying of like kind of like saying hey keep it over here or keep it under wraps and we'll arrest a certain amount of people.

00:19:39.000 It sounds like Yeah.

00:19:57.000 Yeah.

00:19:58.000 Yeah.

00:20:10.000 And just growing up in that neighborhood, having that be your normal as a child and then, you know, growing into adulthood around that and having just used to people getting shot, used to shooting people.

00:20:22.000 I mean, if there's that many people getting shot and that many gunshots going off, everybody must be common.

00:20:27.000 I mean, it must be common to everyone.

00:20:30.000 Yeah.

00:20:31.000 I don't know.

00:20:31.000 It's crazy.

00:20:32.000 It's just heartbreaking.

00:20:33.000 It's such a unique town, too.

00:20:35.000 It's an amazing city.

00:20:37.000 It really is.

00:20:38.000 Yeah, I mean, we have this weird bare-knuckle history.

00:20:42.000 Yeah.

00:20:42.000 And it's still there.

00:20:43.000 You know, no amount of yuppies moving in has changed this sort of working-class sort of ethos.

00:20:49.000 Well, it's sort of symbolized by the food.

00:20:52.000 That giant, thick pizza.

00:20:55.000 Yeah, we like to eat.

00:20:56.000 That pizza is insane.

00:20:58.000 I used to deliver those pizzas, by the way.

00:21:00.000 Did you really?

00:21:01.000 Yeah, that was one of my gigs.

00:21:02.000 I bet it builds your arms up. 0.99

00:21:03.000 Those things are fucking heavy. 0.99

00:21:05.000 The first time I ate a Chicago deep-ditch pizza, I was like, okay, is this really a pizza? 0.99

00:21:09.000 Like, what do we call it?

00:21:10.000 This is a casserole.

00:21:11.000 Yeah.

00:21:14.000 Yeah.

00:21:14.000 But it's hardy people, too.

00:21:17.000 There's something about Chicago that seems to me to have the momentum of the old days still deeply entrenched in it, whereas that doesn't seem the case in LA and a lot of other big cities.

00:21:30.000 Yeah, it's just like kind of weird yuppie thing.

00:21:32.000 I call it yuppies.

00:21:33.000 I don't know what you want to call it.

00:21:34.000 But it's like, South Park did that episode where it's like, it's all like once the Whole Foods moves in, like everyone's supposed to live a certain way.

00:21:43.000 Right.

00:21:43.000 Did you see that episode?

00:21:44.000 No, no.

00:21:44.000 But it's like this funny bit about like how the Whole Foods sort of anchors down this new way of life.

00:21:50.000 Some kind of like, you know, riff on that.

00:21:53.000 I bet it does.

00:21:54.000 Yeah.

00:21:56.000 I bet it does in some way.

00:21:57.000 You know, it's this idea of sort of like you can drop this homogenous idea of what modern culture is like in any place and it will just sort of riff out.

00:22:06.000 Like a spore.

00:22:07.000 Yeah, it's like we've got the Whole Foods and we've got the Starbucks and now we're all going to be nice to each other or something.

00:22:15.000 It's like a weird, you know what I mean?

00:22:16.000 Like we're all just going to start behaving better because, you know, whatever.

00:22:20.000 Yeah.

00:22:20.000 I think you understand the joke.

00:22:22.000 No, I do.

00:22:23.000 You know, I think, but again, saying your environment that you grew up in, this chaos, and then coming from Chicago and coming from, you know, the stories you're telling about your dad, that had to contribute to like the deepness and intensity of your music, right?

00:22:39.000 I don't know.

00:22:40.000 I certainly revolted against suburban life.

00:22:43.000 Yeah.

00:22:43.000 I mean, the suburban life of that world, I just couldn't take it.

00:22:48.000 Yeah, man.

00:22:50.000 I just couldn't take it.

00:22:51.000 The strip mall vibe, whatever that was.

00:22:54.000 I just...

00:22:55.000 Rat in a cage, right?

00:22:57.000 Yeah. 0.69

00:22:57.000 Well, the great thing is then I traded one imprisonment, Suburbia, for rock and roll aesthetics and who gets to say who's integral and who's cool and not cool. 0.69

00:23:09.000 Oh, my God.

00:23:10.000 That drove me insane, too.

00:23:12.000 Who's selling out.

00:23:13.000 Yeah.

00:23:13.000 I mean, the first line of...

00:23:18.000 The first line of our second album is, freak out and give in.

00:23:22.000 Doesn't matter what you believe in.

00:23:23.000 You know, it's like, you know, it's like you gotta, you gotta play by, now you gotta play by these rules.

00:23:28.000 You gotta kiss this ring and, you know.

00:23:31.000 Well, music's always a weird thing, too, is that people really enjoy you when they're the only ones who know about you.

00:23:37.000 And then as you start getting bigger and bigger, they start looking for holes.

00:23:41.000 Yeah, we blew that up early, though.

00:23:42.000 Yeah.

00:23:44.000 We blew that up really early.

00:23:46.000 We made a lot of enemies really early, which is crazy because, I mean, the enemies I made in the early 90s, I mean, I still have them.

00:23:52.000 I mean, they're still sort of lurking out there in various holes.

00:23:54.000 It's weird.

00:23:56.000 It's like those, you know, inner scene rivalries never end, you know?

00:24:01.000 Between bands?

00:24:03.000 It's like, I've had weird experiences with people, not with Nirvana people, but people who are in the Nirvana world.

00:24:13.000 There's still this weird, like, because I'm from Pumpkin World.

00:24:17.000 Sometimes I'll have weird stuff happen and I'll dig down and find out it was somebody who used to work in Nirvana world trying to cut my ankles 27 years later.

00:24:26.000 Like, so weird.

00:24:28.000 Like, so parochial.

00:24:30.000 The whole Nirvana scene is a very strange scene.

00:24:33.000 You know, whenever the main guy commits suicide in this oddly conspiratorial way... 0.99

00:24:38.000 Did you watch that fucked up movie? 0.98

00:24:40.000 A lot of people don't know. 0.99

00:24:43.000 I was like sort of around for a lot of that stuff.

00:24:45.000 So I know a lot of stuff that I've never sort of talked about.

00:24:49.000 So for me, watching that stuff is like, A, it's replaying something I don't want to replay.

00:24:53.000 And B, I know a lot of the stuff is not based on fact because I was around for a lot of it.

00:24:59.000 Right.

00:24:59.000 And no one's ever talked to me about it.

00:25:01.000 So people try to pimp me out like in a Q&A with fans and ask me questions, like I'm suddenly gonna just talk about it.

00:25:07.000 You know what I mean?

00:25:09.000 Yeah, that documentary was so strange.

00:25:12.000 It's like, how does someone get away with that?

00:25:13.000 Like the recreations? 0.99

00:25:14.000 Like, if you weren't there, you don't know what the fuck they said. 0.99

00:25:17.000 So if you don't know what the fuck they said, and you're putting words in these actors' mouths and having them play it out, this should be illegal. 0.99

00:25:25.000 Because you're kind of... 0.99

00:25:26.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:25:28.000 Especially when you're talking about a murder mystery.

00:25:31.000 You're saying that it wasn't a suicide.

00:25:34.000 You're at least putting out the idea that it might be a murder.

00:25:37.000 And the way you're doing it is by manufacturing words that you have no idea if they were ever said.

00:25:42.000 It's just complete fiction.

00:25:44.000 Yeah, so I was around for the before, sort of during, and certainly a lot after.

00:25:51.000 And I know a lot of stuff that, again, I know is not in the public domain.

00:25:55.000 And so I go with what I know.

00:25:58.000 Right.

00:25:59.000 You know what I mean?

00:26:00.000 Yeah, but that whole Nirvana thing was, I mean, I remember the first time I heard Nirvana.

00:26:05.000 I was a kid in Boston, and this buddy of mine played it for us, and we had never heard anything like that.

00:26:12.000 We were like, whoa.

00:26:13.000 This is a new thing.

00:26:15.000 Just fantastic.

00:26:16.000 A new thing, right?

00:26:17.000 And here's a crazy little Boston statistic for you.

00:26:21.000 We once played, it was Nirvana, Pumpkins, and Bullet La Volta.

00:26:25.000 We played at that little club.

00:26:26.000 It was like an alt club across from Fenway.

00:26:28.000 I can't remember what it's called.

00:26:30.000 Axis or...

00:26:31.000 Right, right, yeah.

00:26:32.000 But you know what I'm talking about.

00:26:33.000 But we played there like, I don't know, 92?

00:26:37.000 It wasn't even sold out.

00:26:38.000 Oh, wow.

00:26:40.000 That's amazing.

00:26:41.000 It was like 700 people kind of thing.

00:26:42.000 That's 700 people with an awesome story.

00:26:44.000 Yeah, yeah, right?

00:26:45.000 Wow.

00:26:47.000 So you're working with Rick Rubin now.

00:26:49.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:50.000 That's awesome.

00:26:51.000 Yeah, Rick's fantastic.

00:26:52.000 What is that like, though, for you being like a guy who's kind of like, you've kind of controlled everything before, right?

00:26:58.000 Yeah, totally, yeah.

00:26:59.000 So what is it like for you to have Rubin in the mix and...

00:27:04.000 Yeah, well, Rick's a friend, so for me, it was like, I was sort of at a low point, and he kind of picked me up when I was down, so it was like, I didn't mind sort of trusting him with, like, the head part of it all.

00:27:14.000 Kind of like, you deal with that part, and I'm just going to sort of be the performer and the weird guy in the corner.

00:27:19.000 Did it give you relief?

00:27:21.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:27:22.000 I felt like it allowed me to focus on the music and the performance and sort of just freed me to just, you know, let whatever, because sometimes you can psych yourself out.

00:27:32.000 I don't know if that makes any sense.

00:27:33.000 Like, you can have a really good song, you know it's a good song, and then you start second-guessing yourself, and then you start thinking, well, maybe this song's not good enough, and then that'll infiltrate into your performance, as opposed to being free, like, hey, I've just got a good song, and if that one doesn't work, I've got another good song.

00:27:49.000 So letting Rick kind of do the picking and choosing, and that's a good take, and that's a good song, it was just like, okay, I'm just going to kind of just go down this road.

00:27:57.000 It took me back to sort of a more innocent way of approaching the work, and I'm very grateful to him for that.

00:28:03.000 That's awesome.

00:28:03.000 Yeah, it's got to be quite a mindfuck to create something and then practice it and rehearse it over and over again and tweak it and mess with it and not know, really, almost not be able to be objective anymore.

00:28:16.000 Yeah, well, the weird thing is, I hope people can appreciate how I mean it, is like...

00:28:24.000 Right.

00:28:44.000 And once you start blaming others, now you're in this hall of mirrors.

00:28:47.000 Yeah.

00:28:48.000 Yeah.

00:28:49.000 You know?

00:28:50.000 Instead of raising your hand and saying, okay, I've had a good run.

00:28:53.000 It's like getting a coach or something.

00:28:55.000 Like, maybe a guy goes on a losing streak and needs to bring in a new coach just to say, I think you need to work on your offense.

00:29:00.000 You know what I mean?

00:29:00.000 Just somebody to tweak you.

00:29:01.000 Yeah.

00:29:02.000 But when you're flying a thousand miles an hour and you're selling gazillions of records and making all this money and you're surrounded by a bunch of sycophants, they're not going to tell you, hey, man, you need the doctor to come in and kind of sort your head out.

00:29:15.000 Yeah.

00:29:15.000 So then you start going this way, and then that's when it gets like Hall of Mirrors.

00:29:19.000 So that's where my own hubris sort of got in my own way.

00:29:22.000 I couldn't accept that I got on a losing streak and then go to somebody like Rick and say, hey, I need some help.

00:29:27.000 I need some objective help.

00:29:28.000 Did you feel yourself, like when you were listening to the music that you were creating, did you feel like you were on a losing streak?

00:29:34.000 No.

00:29:35.000 I couldn't intellectually understand why I was failing.

00:29:40.000 It didn't make any sense to me.

00:29:41.000 And sometimes it's just generational, it's the market changes, whatever.

00:29:45.000 It's not personal.

00:29:46.000 It feels incredibly personal, which is why it's easier to blame.

00:29:49.000 Somebody else.

00:29:51.000 Like, you don't understand the depth of my work here.

00:29:54.000 I'm so deep, and you're not following my meta path or something.

00:29:58.000 You know what I mean?

00:29:59.000 And look, most entertainment is popular, right?

00:30:02.000 I mean, you're a comedian.

00:30:03.000 I mean, it's like, if you get up and tell a bunch of jokes and the audience doesn't laugh, whose fault is it?

00:30:07.000 Well, the mindfuck of music to me has always been very fascinating because you guys create it in like a vacuum.

00:30:15.000 Totally.

00:30:16.000 And then you bring it to the people.

00:30:18.000 Like when you release an album, they get it and it's done. 0.99

00:30:21.000 It's like, holy shit, here it is. 0.93

00:30:23.000 And, you know, a big fan plays it for the first time and they're listening to it. 0.99

00:30:27.000 They're like, oh.

00:30:29.000 Whereas we have ideas and I need an audience to create.

00:30:34.000 Like I need to be around them.

00:30:36.000 I can't.

00:30:36.000 I can only create so much on a laptop.

00:30:39.000 Most of it has to be fine-tuned and refined.

00:30:43.000 So by the time I record something, I already know it works.

00:30:47.000 It's already been tested.

00:30:49.000 Right, so let's go back to my point.

00:30:50.000 If you get on a winning streak, and you're creating things in a bubble, and then they work, Well, then you want to take all the credit for it.

00:30:58.000 You forget all the thousand hours in the bedroom that you listen to Jimi Hendrix or, you know, Bauhaus or Merciful Fate or whatever, you know, like, that gave you all these ideas.

00:31:07.000 You know, you don't want to give them credit.

00:31:08.000 You want to be the author of your own success.

00:31:11.000 And everyone starts patting you on the back and...

00:31:14.000 Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you're very introspective in that regard.

00:31:17.000 Like, you have a very...

00:31:19.000 Failure would do that to you.

00:31:21.000 But you say failure, though, but you still have massive amounts of fans.

00:31:24.000 You're still deeply respected.

00:31:26.000 Yeah, I'm weird in that I've always been willing to talk about the process, which, again, is anti-gimmick, but also...

00:31:35.000 I've always approached it more like a performance artist in that I'm after the bigger message of how work intersects with fame, intersects with personal feeling, intersects with personality and how people perceive things.

00:31:49.000 I like all that weird Andy Kaufman uncomfortability.

00:31:53.000 That's part of my attraction.

00:31:55.000 So I've been willing to use myself as the battering ram, which is how I end up becoming a meme.

00:32:06.000 Right.

00:32:22.000 When you become a hugely successful musician and your life becomes touring, big arenas, doing radio shows, getting on the bus, getting on the plane, all this stuff, does it make it difficult to have the time or the actual experiences to continue to create?

00:32:45.000 Yes.

00:32:46.000 Because you get so deoxygenated in the bubble that you start writing songs about being on tour.

00:32:52.000 Yeah, like comedians will tell jokes about airline food.

00:32:56.000 Yeah.

00:32:57.000 Exactly.

00:32:58.000 You end up becoming sort of like, you're trying to take people in the insularity of your experience, but it's not that interesting.

00:33:04.000 Right.

00:33:04.000 And at some point it becomes unrelatable.

00:33:06.000 Well, I always said that about, like, I mean, there's a lot of bands, but some of the great Allman Brothers or Leonard Skinner, like, they had a bunch of songs about leaving.

00:33:18.000 About getting away from women, you know? 1.00

00:33:21.000 Lord, I was born a rambling man.

00:33:23.000 Rightly so, yeah.

00:33:24.000 There were so many songs about just getting away from women. 1.00

00:33:27.000 Yeah, the other day I heard that Crosby Stills Nation song, and it's like, just a song before I go.

00:33:32.000 It's all about he's going on tour, and they go to the airport, and it's uncomfortable.

00:33:35.000 It's such a going on tour song, but it's really not that relatable to most people.

00:33:40.000 No, to a lot of people it's not.

00:33:42.000 Yeah.

00:33:42.000 I mean, Skinner had a shitload of those.

00:33:44.000 They really did have quite a few songs about getting the fuck out of Dodge. 0.63

00:33:50.000 But they were good. 0.85

00:33:52.000 Such a great band.

00:33:53.000 I'm a giant fan.

00:33:54.000 I mean, they're probably the greatest thing to ever come out of Florida.

00:33:58.000 It's arguable, you know?

00:34:00.000 I'm trying to think who else came out of Florida.

00:34:05.000 Jim Brewer?

00:34:07.000 I thought we were just talking about music.

00:34:11.000 Yeah, I don't have anything else when it comes to music.

00:34:14.000 Who out?

00:34:15.000 Pitbull?

00:34:18.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:34:20.000 So did you feel it while it was happening?

00:34:25.000 Like when you're doing these mega tours and everything, do you feel like the staleness and the creation?

00:34:32.000 Um, I did.

00:34:34.000 Yeah.

00:34:34.000 I think what I tried to do is change personalities, change musical directions to kind of re-infuse things.

00:34:41.000 And it worked up until a point, until my mother died, like in 96, in a weird three-month period.

00:34:51.000 The drummer left the band, my mother died, and I got a divorce in like a six-month period.

00:34:58.000 Yeah.

00:34:58.000 And so I try to use that as fuel to sort of pivot where I wanted to go musically, but I wrote this very introspective, dark record, which a lot of people really like now, but at the time it was like so antithetical to this big rock machine.

00:35:15.000 Yeah, I was like castigated for being an idiot, and I went from golden child to idiot, you know, in one fell swoop. 0.97

00:35:22.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:35:23.000 Well, so many great artists are a prisoner of their early success.

00:35:27.000 Yeah, and rightly so.

00:35:29.000 You know what I mean?

00:35:29.000 I have a much greater appreciation for the zeitgeist effect of the public.

00:35:34.000 I don't know if that makes any sense.

00:35:35.000 It's like...

00:35:38.000 How many Zeitgeist did Elvis have?

00:35:39.000 Three.

00:35:41.000 U2's had two or three.

00:35:42.000 Frank Sinatra had two or three or four.

00:35:45.000 I mean, there's something about when it all seems to make sense, like the public's fascination, the artist's place in time, the work that's being created.

00:35:53.000 There's a sense of like familiarity, but also something is happening and everybody wants to take part in it.

00:35:59.000 And so I have a much greater appreciation for that moment.

00:36:02.000 The ego of the artist wants to convince yourself that you're always in that moment.

00:36:07.000 And that's just impossible.

00:36:09.000 That's just impossible.

00:36:10.000 There's just no way.

00:36:11.000 It's just the cyclical nature of creation.

00:36:14.000 That's such an important thing to say for people listening, for people that struggle with this themselves.

00:36:19.000 To hear someone like you say that.

00:36:22.000 Yeah, it actually kind of makes sense.

00:36:24.000 It's like a typical example.

00:36:28.000 It's like falling in love and expecting to feel that feeling forever.

00:36:31.000 Right.

00:36:31.000 It's just not going to happen.

00:36:33.000 You're not going to feel the same.

00:36:34.000 I would argue if you are, there's something wrong.

00:36:37.000 You haven't matured into a deeper relationship.

00:36:41.000 So in the same thing, an artist needs to mature into a deeper relationship with their work, or their relationship with the public, or their relationship with themselves.

00:36:47.000 And if you can do that, and you look at great examples, Johnny Cash, Neil Young, Tom Petty, when they get there, Everybody comes back, Bob Dylan, because they think, okay, now you're giving me some new information.

00:37:00.000 This isn't just a riff on the thing that you gave me before.

00:37:04.000 And I think the public has shown over time the willingness and the ability to follow artists if they're able to go to that place where they mine out something new that actually is like a cultural contribution and not just sort of more of what they already know.

00:37:18.000 I think that's so important for you to talk about.

00:37:20.000 I'm so glad you do.

00:37:21.000 Because for upcoming artists and in all sorts of genres, just people who are involved in creating, to hear someone as successful as yourself talk about the various struggles of the mind and of momentum and the different stages and various points of your career.

00:37:39.000 It's so important.

00:37:40.000 Yeah, the music business plays this Jedi mind trick on you where the whole thing's set up to be rapacious and take advantage of your weakness.

00:37:48.000 How so?

00:37:50.000 Well, it's like, I'll use the music business as an example, and I'm sure there's plenty of parallels across the entertainment spectrum.

00:37:58.000 You struggle to get the contract, and then the contract is sort of the indentured servitude type of thing.

00:38:05.000 Our first contract was seven albums.

00:38:08.000 Essentially 14 years.

00:38:10.000 So I signed that contract when I was 23. That's crazy.

00:38:14.000 Okay, so I'm signing at 23 years old.

00:38:16.000 I'm signing a contract that's supposed to take me into 37. You're signing a contract for more than half your life.

00:38:22.000 And if you look at the shelf life of most artists, it's four to...

00:38:26.000 So they're basically anticipating your entire arc.

00:38:30.000 That's so crazy.

00:38:31.000 So you don't have any leverage, you know, other than that they want to sign you.

00:38:35.000 You sign the deal, and then it becomes this weird dance of, like, can I sustain success?

00:38:41.000 Yeah.

00:38:43.000 We're good to go.

00:38:48.000 We're good to go.

00:39:05.000 That's the weird position that record companies had for a long time that they don't seem to have anymore.

00:39:10.000 I would argue against that.

00:39:11.000 They still do?

00:39:12.000 Well, they've moved to a different set of circumstances, and I'm not as conversant as I once was, but one thing they do with certain younger artists, but I think particularly more in the pop realm, is they do these 360 deals, where it's like, if you get a perfume deal, you own a piece of your whole world.

00:39:30.000 And fame is such a great quotient in American life now that you can see where kids would trade, Fame and be willing to give away the profit part.

00:39:40.000 Well, they'll take a risk at the long-term ownership.

00:39:44.000 Right.

00:39:45.000 So let me jump in there.

00:39:46.000 So if you actually survive the cut, let's call it phase one, you're successful, you're a name, and now you're in a place to either renegotiate or your deal is up or whatever.

00:39:56.000 I once had a conversation with a very powerful music executive, and I was friends with the guy, so I was like, give me the insider psychology here.

00:40:05.000 Now that I know the game that you run, what do you tell people like me when they get here?

00:40:11.000 And he says, oh, it's just there's always a price.

00:40:15.000 So they know that even if you get through the matrix of the whole thing and get out the other side, that there's just a dollar amount that will buy you back in.

00:40:22.000 Whoa.

00:40:23.000 They're not worried that you'll go independent.

00:40:25.000 And in fact, if you look at a lot of the machinations of the music business over the last 20 years, especially with the rise of the internet, it's to keep people in the system.

00:40:33.000 They don't want true independence.

00:40:38.000 Look no further than the deals that the record labels cut with the streaming services.

00:40:44.000 They got into ownership equity deals with the streaming services in an arrangement for them to have an equity position.

00:40:51.000 They agreed to very low rates for the artist's music.

00:40:55.000 So when you listen to Bob Dylan's song on Spotify, Bob Dylan's not getting a lot of money for that.

00:41:04.000 But as Spotify and the other streaming services raise up in their equity position, the labels benefit.

00:41:09.000 So the labels pimped out their own artists to take a greater equity position in a rising business.

00:41:16.000 It's like...

00:41:17.000 You see what I'm saying?

00:41:18.000 Yeah.

00:41:19.000 They weaken the artist's position to take a better position at the table themselves.

00:41:22.000 That is fascinating.

00:41:23.000 And they weakened the monetary position of compensation in order to get equity in the company.

00:41:29.000 Right.

00:41:29.000 And now you see it where Metallica's management, for example, has come out, and especially U2's former manager, Paul McGinnis, come out.

00:41:39.000 They're trying to take on YouTube now.

00:41:42.000 Because YouTube's got this weird, funky position where they'll pay on licensed music, but they won't pay for covers.

00:41:49.000 You know what I mean?

00:41:50.000 YouTube's one of the big targets of the business because whatever deal they agreed to with YouTube 10 years ago was super weak.

00:41:56.000 But again, these are all machinations that go on above the artist's spot.

00:42:01.000 And a quick thing into your world...

00:42:05.000 When McGregor leapt out and did the fight with Mayweather, he creates this whole different set of dynamics because He can run his own game.

00:42:15.000 UFC can't pay him that kind of money.

00:42:18.000 And last I heard is maybe he's going to do another fight.

00:42:20.000 So I don't want to get totally into that.

00:42:22.000 But my point is, you see where those dynamics where people step outside the system, it changes the game.

00:42:27.000 So it's actually kind of...

00:42:29.000 I've never met Dana White, but if Dana White could go back in a time machine, maybe he'd pay McGregor more money to keep him in his world.

00:42:39.000 Because now that he's out...

00:42:41.000 I don't think Connor would have accepted that.

00:42:44.000 I think he recognized the unique opportunity that he's in, so he probably wanted to be a part of that.

00:42:49.000 Sure, and I'm talking about stuff as a fan.

00:42:51.000 You're on the other side of the fence.

00:42:52.000 But my point is, when you see when somebody breaks out of the matrix of how the game is set up, it creates this weird thing.

00:43:01.000 Yeah, and there are a few today, though, that have kind of figured it out through YouTube and all these different online...

00:43:07.000 I think Chance the Rapper, I don't know much about his business, but I know he's sort of worked out this other model for himself.

00:43:12.000 Yeah, Jamie knows a lot about him.

00:43:15.000 I know he's getting money from way other places than just the traditional record contract.

00:43:20.000 He's got big deals from major companies like Sprite and other...

00:43:22.000 And he's still independent, right?

00:43:24.000 Technically?

00:43:25.000 That's the word they would use to market him, like he's an independent artist, but he's got a machine behind him, so I don't know if he's independent, you know.

00:43:31.000 Yeah, I'm good friends with Sturgill Simpson, and Sturgill's tried to educate me as to how the record business keeps people in the fold with owning your merchandise and your likeness forever and all these different things.

00:43:46.000 It seems crazy.

00:43:49.000 We actually signed a clause, and it said, and this contract pertains to this universe and any universe not yet discovered.

00:44:02.000 What?

00:44:03.000 We signed that clause.

00:44:05.000 Who wrote that?

00:44:06.000 The record company. 1.00

00:44:07.000 Jesus fucking... 1.00

00:44:08.000 What are they, Scientology? 1.00

00:44:09.000 That is crazy!

00:44:11.000 Like, we literally had to sign a thing and it was like, this contract pertains to this known universe and any universe not yet discovered. 0.98

00:44:18.000 That is fucking insane. 0.97

00:44:19.000 That is insane. 0.99

00:44:21.000 Like, if someone found a parallel universe somewhere and they figured out they could sell music to them.

00:44:26.000 It's a parallel music.

00:44:27.000 They haven't heard of the Smashing Pumpkins.

00:44:28.000 Get over there, quick! 1.00

00:44:30.000 Shoot a rocket ship filled with cash over there.

00:44:32.000 Well, you know why they put that in is because when they transitioned to CDs, the contracts didn't account for CDs.

00:44:42.000 And what they did, it's a very classic thing, is so they had to go back and renegotiate all the deals because of the CD technology.

00:44:51.000 This would have been like, whatever, 80s?

00:44:53.000 So they went to every artist and they said, look, it's this new technology and we're not sure it's going to work.

00:44:57.000 So you've got to take a price cut...

00:45:00.000 We're only going to pay you 75 cents on the dollar so we could advance the new technology.

00:45:05.000 Oh, Jesus Christ, they're dirty. 0.98

00:45:07.000 They're dirty. 0.99

00:45:08.000 The Spotify thing is dirty. 0.53

00:45:09.000 That makes me uncomfortable hearing how they weaseled that.

00:45:12.000 How they negotiated cheap prices for the performers, then they got an equity position in the company, so as the company grows, because they don't have to pay much and they get all this music, they get money from that. 1.00

00:45:22.000 That is sneaky, dark, fucking 3D chess shit. 1.00

00:45:26.000 Game of Thrones, man. 1.00

00:45:27.000 It is!

00:45:28.000 Game of Thrones.

00:45:29.000 But I mean, obviously, it's an organism surviving in the face of Napster, right? 0.99

00:45:35.000 Like, Napster comes in, file sharing comes in, and they're like, holy shit.

00:45:39.000 Okay, so the internet is just out there, wild and free, and you can just download the music.

00:45:43.000 The music is now digital.

00:45:44.000 We can't control it, and it's just going.

00:45:47.000 And it drives some people crazy. 0.98

00:45:48.000 I had Paul Stanley in here, and you can see the fucking anger in his face when he's talking about people stealing music. 0.99

00:45:54.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:45:54.000 I was one of the first people that came out for Napster because I thought the music business should get in bed with Napster. 0.98

00:46:01.000 In essence, they let the monster grow.

00:46:02.000 Right.

00:46:03.000 I thought they should have brought Napster in-house.

00:46:05.000 And made it like a paper thing.

00:46:07.000 Whatever.

00:46:08.000 Yeah.

00:46:08.000 But, I mean, if you want to be technical, I mean, the thing I help support, I mean, it probably cost me $30 million, $40 million.

00:46:17.000 Napster did.

00:46:18.000 Yeah.

00:46:18.000 That whole world.

00:46:19.000 Easy.

00:46:20.000 Sure.

00:46:20.000 Yeah.

00:46:21.000 Yeah.

00:46:22.000 I would imagine. 0.89

00:46:23.000 And I'm not here to bitch. 1.00

00:46:24.000 It's like the world went on and I'm not the only person.

00:46:27.000 It wasn't targeted at me.

00:46:29.000 And I supported it, so I got nothing to say. 0.99

00:46:31.000 But I mean, yeah, at some point, when you can't pay your stupid mortgage on your fifth property, you know, sad at Disneyland, you know what I mean? 0.98

00:46:40.000 It's like, I wish I had that money. 0.77

00:46:43.000 But it's a weird dynamic of the internet, of the free access of information.

00:46:50.000 And then when a song...

00:46:52.000 Your creation can just be boiled down to information.

00:46:54.000 It's not that much different than forwarding an email.

00:46:57.000 In terms of people's access to it, it's very easy to get.

00:47:00.000 The reason I supported it in the beginning was I thought that the free association with music would create a more holistic, fans finding what they want, and that we would do well in that ecosystem.

00:47:14.000 That turned out not to be the case.

00:47:17.000 And I think now that it is sort of set up in the streaming service world, now that's starting to be the case because people are finding us because it's sort of organized and there's sort of institutional culture.

00:47:27.000 But when it was free-wielding, I don't think we played the game well enough to take advantage of it.

00:47:32.000 And, you know, a lot of trains just passed us by.

00:47:35.000 Yeah, there was a lot of argument that people would find new music because of that in a way that they would have never found if the record companies and the radio stations had a lockdown on what got distributed.

00:47:45.000 Somebody did a study, it's my one piece of empirical evidence, like the British Association of Something, when it first became a real issue, did a study about people's fidelity to artists Whether they got something for free or they paid for it.

00:48:04.000 And they found the loyalty was literally nil if they got it for free.

00:48:09.000 That the actual act of purchasing something created a relationship that then created a sort of a desire to want to prove that the relationship was profitable.

00:48:21.000 In essence, I buy your comedy concert.

00:48:25.000 I didn't get it for free.

00:48:27.000 It makes me actually assess whether or not my thing was a good investment.

00:48:31.000 And if you prove to me it is, I become more loyal to you because now we're in a relationship.

00:48:36.000 That makes sense.

00:48:37.000 Yeah, like you want to justify your purchase.

00:48:39.000 It also makes sense like when I was coming up and we'd do comedy clubs and they would paper the room and, you know, have giveaway free tickets.

00:48:47.000 Oh, God, right.

00:48:47.000 Audiences were terrible.

00:48:48.000 They were terrible.

00:48:50.000 You would think the people would be thankful they got a free show.

00:48:52.000 Nope.

00:48:53.000 They were the worst, most unappreciative audiences because they didn't have anything invested in it.

00:48:57.000 That's it.

00:48:58.000 It totally makes sense.

00:48:59.000 So you saw it coming.

00:49:01.000 You saw Napster coming.

00:49:02.000 You looked at it and you were like, this is something that is inevitable.

00:49:06.000 We should probably figure out a way to be with them.

00:49:11.000 There's a piece of video of me from like 99 where I say the future of music is streaming.

00:49:16.000 Whoa! 0.71

00:49:17.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:49:18.000 Damn, you called that. 1.00

00:49:18.000 They put me in some documentary. 1.00

00:49:20.000 I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it.

00:49:23.000 Yeah, I've always wondered.

00:49:24.000 We're not on Spotify or with this podcast, but they have podcasts on it.

00:49:29.000 But I'm like, well, where's the money?

00:49:31.000 Where is it going?

00:49:32.000 You want me to be on, right?

00:49:34.000 But where's it going?

00:49:37.000 Using Amazon as an example, remember for years the rap on Amazon was they're not a profitable business?

00:49:43.000 Nobody could understand because it was this new model.

00:49:45.000 Well, now you understand that that business model is about growing the brand value.

00:49:52.000 Yeah.

00:49:53.000 You know, in essence, if you grow the brand value, your net worth as a brand far outpaces whether or not you're profitable.

00:50:02.000 Mmm.

00:50:03.000 Does it make sense?

00:50:03.000 Yes, it does.

00:50:05.000 So that's part of my argument now with music is the brand, and I'll use my brand, Smashing Pumpkins, or the NWA, is far more valuable than my sort of profit loss on paper.

00:50:17.000 Mmm.

00:50:18.000 In the world of the open market.

00:50:21.000 And so, as long as you appreciate that, you won't let people come along and gut out your brand value.

00:50:26.000 That's a fascinating way of looking at it.

00:50:28.000 I don't think very many musicians probably...

00:50:30.000 No, because they're surrounded by people who are telling them it's a profit-loss business.

00:50:35.000 Full well-knowing, I would argue, that they kind of know deep down it really isn't.

00:50:40.000 Like, let's use a good positive example right now.

00:50:43.000 GNR, you know, reformed, you know, Duff and...

00:50:47.000 Axel and Slash are out there.

00:50:49.000 I just saw them at Madison Square Garden.

00:50:51.000 I mean, that's proving to be a very durable brand.

00:50:53.000 Mm-hmm.

00:50:54.000 Yeah.

00:50:55.000 Now, you could argue how many record—nobody cares anymore.

00:50:59.000 That's a durable brand.

00:51:01.000 Right.

00:51:01.000 The G&R brand or the Harley-Davidson brand or the Joe Rogan brand, those are durable brands that are worth far more than you could sort of prove on paper.

00:51:09.000 The G&R one's a fascinating one to me because Axel just went off the rails and into the woods for so long— Shooting his face up with a bunch of shit and looks like he was just gone looks like we lost him I mean to me as a kid Guns N' Roses like I mean they were like welcome to the jungles like one of my all-time favorite songs when I was like 18 or whatever old I was when it came out I mean it was amazing and then to see them just have this incredible success and then Axl goes crazy But

00:51:40.000 I would argue and I don't mean this in a disparaging way I would argue that that The freedom in Axel and the path that they took is added to the brand.

00:51:53.000 I think so too, because people are so thankful they're back.

00:51:55.000 I would argue it differently.

00:51:57.000 I think that when you look, and I'm speaking as a fan now, When I look at Axl Rose, I see a free person.

00:52:06.000 That means more to me than whether he did the right thing in 2000X. I'm more interested in that.

00:52:13.000 That's a unique perspective. 0.99

00:52:14.000 So you like the fact that he didn't give a fuck and he just went crazy? 0.99

00:52:17.000 I love that about Axl Rose. 0.99

00:52:20.000 I love that about Axl Rose. 0.97

00:52:21.000 I love that he doesn't give two fucks about anything. 0.79

00:52:24.000 I think that's so fascinating.

00:52:25.000 Because there are only a few American iconic artists that are truly free.

00:52:32.000 Yeah.

00:52:33.000 And the fact that...

00:52:34.000 So, it's like, was Hunter S. Thompson free?

00:52:37.000 You know, it's like, we only have a few of those people.

00:52:40.000 Yeah.

00:52:40.000 Johnny Cash, right?

00:52:41.000 Johnny Cash had some weird bad years.

00:52:43.000 Yeah.

00:52:44.000 You know?

00:52:45.000 Was every year of Johnny Cash perfect?

00:52:46.000 Was every year of Neil Young perfect?

00:52:48.000 It's the sum total of what that person represents that I think is the durability.

00:52:55.000 As fans, we get into like, well, I don't like the new song.

00:52:58.000 I think that misses the mark.

00:53:01.000 There's only one Guns N' Roses in the whole world.

00:53:03.000 And I have fought mightily internally to protect what the Smashing Pumpkins means.

00:53:10.000 I know it's not for everybody, but there's only one Smashing Pumpkins.

00:53:13.000 I know that.

00:53:14.000 I knew that as a kid, and then I got a little lost in it, and I've come out the other side, and I realize that protecting what that brand is worth is so much more valuable than whether somebody liked one song or one album or something I said in 1992. It's so inconsequential.

00:53:29.000 That's such a unique perspective when you look at Axl Rose from the point of view of being a fellow performer, too.

00:53:35.000 One of the things I really enjoy about Axl Rose is I love comebacks.

00:53:38.000 I love when someone fucks their life up and then just brings it right back around.

00:53:43.000 It's like a good fight, right?

00:53:45.000 Success stories are awesome.

00:53:48.000 Love them.

00:53:49.000 But they're fairly commonplace.

00:53:50.000 But success, complete fuck-up, success again, those are the stories.

00:53:55.000 Those are the ones I enjoy.

00:53:58.000 It's very American, you know, we love the comeback.

00:54:01.000 And there were some performances of Axel's when they were attempting to come back, or maybe he was touring on his own, I forget which one it was, where he was like off.

00:54:09.000 He wasn't quite there yet. 0.98

00:54:11.000 And now you see him now, live, and he's fucking killing it. 0.99

00:54:15.000 It's like he turned it around. 0.96

00:54:18.000 Yeah, that's what I'm saying is, you could sit there and talk about what somebody did in some year past, but if they put it back together, they put it back together not because they're trying to satisfy something, they're putting it together because the forces within them are not easily controlled.

00:54:35.000 It's like a good fighter, right?

00:54:36.000 When they put it all together.

00:54:39.000 I've heard you talk on commentary.

00:54:40.000 It's like a good fighter manages their adrenaline, manages their focus.

00:54:46.000 You know what I mean?

00:54:46.000 You can't go completely hog wild and you can't be too conservative.

00:54:49.000 You're right on that line.

00:54:50.000 And that's what performance really is like.

00:54:52.000 It's like a lot of people outside the bubble have a hard time understanding this.

00:54:57.000 Every night I step on stage, I want to do a good show.

00:54:59.000 Sometimes it's just not there to be had.

00:55:01.000 It could be the moon or it could be what I ate for breakfast.

00:55:03.000 I don't know.

00:55:08.000 Yeah.

00:55:26.000 I mean, when you're...

00:55:28.000 A successful performer like yourself and you see one hit wonders.

00:55:32.000 One hit wonders have always freaked me the fuck out. 1.00

00:55:34.000 And I don't know why, because I'm not even a musician, but just the horror of being successful and hitting and then it all going away and then you're fucked. 0.99

00:55:44.000 Yeah, I was terrified of that. 0.99

00:55:45.000 God, it's got to be so scary.

00:55:47.000 Yeah.

00:55:48.000 That's, to me, one of the more...

00:55:50.000 One of the weirder...

00:55:54.000 Opportunities or moments in in pop culture is when that kind of stuff happens Because with one song, you know, She's My Cherry Pie, you can just shoot to the top of the charts.

00:56:05.000 Didn't they have two hits, though?

00:56:06.000 I think they had a couple, right?

00:56:07.000 So they're two hit wonders, yeah.

00:56:09.000 But, you know, there's a gang of bands that had just one killer.

00:56:12.000 Yeah, I don't want to say the band, but somebody I know went to see one of those one hit wonder type bands.

00:56:16.000 And they did their big famous song and the crowd went crazy.

00:56:20.000 And then, you know, they did the show and they came back on for the encore and they did the song again.

00:56:25.000 The same song.

00:56:26.000 Yeah, and that's like, for me as a performer, it's just heartbreaking.

00:56:30.000 It's like, it'd be like me playing Today twice or something, and here it is again.

00:56:35.000 Yeah, that's...

00:56:38.000 Oh, two versions of Stairway to Heaven.

00:56:39.000 Or it'd be like the Diceman coming out and doing the...

00:56:41.000 Oh, the rhymes again!

00:56:43.000 Yeah.

00:56:44.000 Yeah.

00:56:45.000 The thing about becoming a character, what you were talking about, that is a fascinating trap that I could imagine would be difficult.

00:56:52.000 The expectations of your fans.

00:56:55.000 You know, I just love the fact that you've managed that so comfortably.

00:56:59.000 Well, according to a lot of people, I haven't, but I'm comfortable with it.

00:57:04.000 That's all that matters.

00:57:05.000 I would argue that.

00:57:06.000 That's true. 0.99

00:57:08.000 Like, you know, I've been playing these acoustic shows and, you know, at some point people start shouting out songs and I just say to the audience, look, the great thing about turning 50 is I don't give a fuck what you want. 0.97

00:57:18.000 I was going to do what I want to do. 0.94

00:57:20.000 And at the end of the day, right, that sells better to most of the audience.

00:57:24.000 Because most of the audience, I would argue, appreciates me being independent, even if they don't always get what they want, than being a shill. 0.98

00:57:32.000 Yes.

00:57:33.000 I don't think people get behind rebels because they want them to sell out.

00:57:36.000 They get behind rebels because they want them to stay rebellious.

00:57:38.000 Yes.

00:57:39.000 Well, yeah, for every person who yells out, I want you to do your old stuff, there's many more people that just want you to be you.

00:57:47.000 Yeah, I would hope, yeah.

00:57:48.000 Yeah, I would think so.

00:57:49.000 Yeah.

00:57:50.000 You're doing really intimate places.

00:57:52.000 Like, you're doing that Hollywood cemetery thing.

00:57:53.000 Yeah, it's pretty wild, playing the cemetery.

00:57:55.000 Yeah, my friend Duncan used to do comedy shows out of there.

00:57:57.000 Oh, really?

00:57:58.000 Yeah.

00:57:58.000 They do comedy there?

00:57:59.000 They used to.

00:58:00.000 Duncan's crazy, though.

00:58:01.000 He just decided... 0.83

00:58:02.000 I don't think anybody else did it before him.

00:58:03.000 He just decided...

00:58:04.000 It's a bit strange, you know?

00:58:06.000 Yeah.

00:58:06.000 It's just weird that they have a concert venue.

00:58:08.000 Like we couldn't soundcheck until a certain time because there were bereaved people coming in to make their funeral arrangements.

00:58:15.000 Yeah.

00:58:16.000 It's like a weird thing like, yeah, we can't soundcheck until 530 because there's somebody in the anteroom making burial arrangements for their family.

00:58:23.000 Yeah, legitimately.

00:58:24.000 Yeah.

00:58:24.000 Yeah, like it's a real cemetery that also has concerts.

00:58:27.000 Yeah.

00:58:28.000 How many is a seat?

00:58:30.000 250. Oh, wow.

00:58:31.000 It's really small.

00:58:32.000 It's a cool vibe.

00:58:33.000 It's beautiful.

00:58:34.000 I mean, it's really cool.

00:58:35.000 I love the old Hollywood stuff, so, you know, it works for me, but it is a bit weird.

00:58:40.000 Yeah.

00:58:40.000 I literally texted, you know, like an ex-girlfriend, like, I'm literally playing a cemetery.

00:58:44.000 You know what I mean?

00:58:45.000 It's like, it just sounds so like, what?

00:58:47.000 Yeah.

00:58:48.000 Well, what chose you or what made you choose that venue?

00:58:52.000 Yeah.

00:58:53.000 That's, you know, you got your agent sort of, you know, when you're playing, I'm playing acoustic, I play over two hours literally by myself, no help.

00:59:01.000 So environment helps a lot with kind of creating the atmosphere to do that in.

00:59:06.000 The more sterile the environment, the less it feels kind of special.

00:59:10.000 Right, right.

00:59:10.000 And so I do find the environment certainly helps.

00:59:14.000 Yeah, that's a small group of people to see you.

00:59:17.000 Like, what is that like to go from these big venues to doing these intimate settings?

00:59:22.000 I used to really find that I could play a different show, small versus big, and I found over the last 10 years, I blame the internet, that almost every audience is now the same.

00:59:33.000 Wow.

00:59:33.000 That the expectations of the audience from 250 to 5,000 or up is almost identical.

00:59:40.000 That may also have something to do with just having a long career and then people kind of say, I want to see these songs or something.

00:59:44.000 But I don't find as much willingness to take the journey as it used to be.

00:59:50.000 Because we, you know, in the 90s, we would do shows in a club and we would play no hits and just play weird b-sides and people loved it because it was like, I'm seeing the band I wouldn't get to see at the Enormaldome.

00:59:59.000 Right, right.

01:00:00.000 And then at some point that stopped and we would play a small club and play a bunch of weird stuff and people would be furious.

01:00:06.000 Really? 1.00

01:00:06.000 Yeah, you would look at Twitter afterwards like, fuck you, you ruined my night, you know. 1.00

01:00:10.000 Really? 1.00

01:00:11.000 Oh, it was furious.

01:00:12.000 Wow.

01:00:13.000 Furious.

01:00:14.000 How many of those people were, I mean, like, if you're in front of 400 people, how many of those people were furious?

01:00:19.000 Is it three?

01:00:21.000 It would be a lot.

01:00:22.000 No, it would be a lot.

01:00:23.000 No, it was a lot.

01:00:24.000 Strange, weird, yeah.

01:00:26.000 I just, I don't know.

01:00:27.000 I think it's a cultural thing, maybe, you know.

01:00:29.000 A generational thing, perhaps?

01:00:31.000 Don't know.

01:00:32.000 Don't know.

01:00:32.000 It surprised me, because I grew up in this kind of anarchy time, you know, mosh pits, and, you know, we used to play a 45-minute song.

01:00:40.000 Really?

01:00:40.000 Can't you play a 45-minute song today?

01:00:44.000 I mean a 45 minute song.

01:00:46.000 That's crazy.

01:00:48.000 Do you enjoy being on top of people like that?

01:00:51.000 Like a 250 seat?

01:00:54.000 It doesn't bother me.

01:00:54.000 It doesn't bother me at all.

01:00:56.000 Does it feel different?

01:00:58.000 Or do you just get into your music?

01:01:00.000 In order to play acoustic, I go super within.

01:01:04.000 I found that even, because originally I was going to stand, and this I know seems kind of minor detail, but I decided to sit.

01:01:10.000 And I actually found by sitting and being very still and just performing and doing my best job of performing the songs, the audience enjoyed the show better.

01:01:19.000 Like, I took out all the showbiz.

01:01:21.000 You know, when you're standing, you're doing the, you know, whatever.

01:01:24.000 Your moves.

01:01:26.000 I think...

01:01:27.000 Creating a level of intimacy and drawing the audience forward is probably the only sort of difference maker that I've found because there's literally no showbiz.

01:01:35.000 I mean, what can I do?

01:01:37.000 You seem very concerned with like you want the audience to enjoy it.

01:01:41.000 Yeah, I didn't used to care.

01:01:43.000 I used to view performing as an art project thing, which is I want to sort of create a provocative situation and then I want to ride the wave of the provocative situation.

01:01:53.000 And of course I grew up in a generational thing that the audience was sort of interested in that.

01:01:59.000 Sort of the explosive nature of the mosh pit and you know this kind of weird sublimated violence that would kind of come out during the shows and we were part of the engine that would sort of bring out this emotional quality and then at some point you know Things change.

01:02:13.000 Again, I don't know if it's a generational thing, but I found that the only way I could play older music with a good heart and an open mind was to get into the others appreciating it.

01:02:28.000 Because if you ask me, it's not for me anymore.

01:02:31.000 Because in essence, as an artist...

01:02:34.000 And I'm not trying to jump in your head, but as an artist, I want to be able to say, how do I feel tonight?

01:02:40.000 And tonight I want to—I've written like 400 songs, so to me I would like to say, okay, of these 400 songs, I just feel like playing these 15 songs tonight.

01:02:46.000 But I can't do that, because I do have to go out and do the Hickory Dickory Dock poem.

01:02:52.000 It's sort of expected, and if I don't, I'm going to get lit up.

01:02:56.000 Right.

01:02:57.000 So I had to kind of create this weird truce in my mind where it's like, what way can I do this material in a way that feels heartfelt and genuine?

01:03:05.000 And I found by letting myself appreciate the audience's appreciation of that created like a joy that I didn't have before.

01:03:13.000 It didn't feel like a defeat and a tapping out to the moment.

01:03:17.000 It felt like, oh, okay, we can create this exchange.

01:03:21.000 Was this a gradual process?

01:03:22.000 Yeah, it took me a while.

01:03:24.000 Because I came from such complete anarchy that to sort of put myself in the straight jacket of being a...

01:03:30.000 You know, growing up in the era I grew up in, it felt like putting on the gold lame jacket and going to Vegas.

01:03:34.000 That's what it felt like to me.

01:03:35.000 You know, it felt like I was really...

01:03:37.000 You know, I'd become, you know...

01:03:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:03:59.000 Pete was talking to me once about how people were getting mad at him for using, and I saw him quoted publicly, so I don't feel like I'm giving anything away.

01:04:07.000 People were getting mad at him for using, like, won't get fooled again in a car commercial.

01:04:11.000 And Pete's quote was something along the lines of, like, I don't care if you lost your virginity to Mary Lou in the backseat to my song.

01:04:17.000 It's my song.

01:04:18.000 I can do with it what I want.

01:04:20.000 So it takes time to sort of appreciate that at some point if you've been lucky enough, and I am lucky enough to have created a few kind of cultural milestones for a generation or multiple generations, that they feel very possessive of those things.

01:04:35.000 And so if you're not willing to possess them with them, it almost feels like to them you're rejecting their idea.

01:04:41.000 Not your own.

01:04:42.000 Oh, wow.

01:04:43.000 See, to my mind, I'm like, well, I'm the author.

01:04:45.000 If I don't feel like playing that song, I mean, that's my decision.

01:04:49.000 So you sold them on something, and then if you're not buying it anymore, then they're angry.

01:04:53.000 It almost feels like you're rejecting their approval.

01:04:56.000 Yes.

01:04:58.000 And when you're surrounded by a bunch of sycophantic artists who are literally tripping all over themselves to give the audience what they want, to create this kind of idealized, isn't this amazing feeling?

01:05:10.000 And we've all been to those shows.

01:05:12.000 It's the greatest concert ever.

01:05:13.000 And then you go to the next show and it's the exact same lines in between the songs.

01:05:17.000 It's Vegas, right?

01:05:19.000 I'm incapable of that.

01:05:21.000 So my way of feeling it was...

01:05:23.000 But my appreciation of that was to try to get inside the head of why the audience needed that from me.

01:05:30.000 Because it felt burdensome.

01:05:32.000 Like, why me?

01:05:34.000 Like, get it from the guy over there.

01:05:37.000 Like...

01:05:38.000 There's plenty of people you can get this vibe from.

01:05:40.000 Why me?

01:05:41.000 Well, that's the Nickelback thing, right?

01:05:42.000 Like, people demand sincerity.

01:05:44.000 And if they think that you're in...

01:05:46.000 Like, Nickelback's not that bad. 0.99

01:05:48.000 But they're the fucking punchline of punchlines when it comes to bad music. 0.98

01:05:53.000 To me, the guy's an incredible writer. 0.99

01:05:56.000 I mean, Chad.

01:05:58.000 I mean, he's an incredible songwriter.

01:06:00.000 I like their songs.

01:06:01.000 I like some of their music.

01:06:02.000 I do.

01:06:03.000 I know some of it is like cliche subject matter, and I don't care.

01:06:07.000 There's a lot of great songs that have cliche subject matter.

01:06:11.000 Yeah, see, to me, I don't think there's anything, and I'm not trying to, I don't know enough about their world, but I don't think there's anything wrong if that's who you want to be.

01:06:19.000 Yes.

01:06:20.000 Pop, to me, is predicated on satisfying. 0.99

01:06:22.000 Pop, I've said it many times, pop is porn. 0.99

01:06:25.000 It's porn. 1.00

01:06:26.000 They want to get you off. 0.99

01:06:27.000 Right, right.

01:06:28.000 And it's just how they're going to get you off.

01:06:31.000 That's a good way of looking at it.

01:06:32.000 I'm not that concerned with getting you off.

01:06:35.000 I'm just not.

01:06:37.000 I'm just not.

01:06:38.000 It's just not in my DNA. I was never that guy.

01:06:42.000 I was never that guy.

01:06:43.000 So at some point, pick your age, 41. You got some guy tapping on the shoulder saying, hey, I need you to be that guy.

01:06:49.000 You're like, me?

01:06:51.000 Have you looked at me lately?

01:06:52.000 I mean, I'm not that guy.

01:06:54.000 Right.

01:06:55.000 It's very strange.

01:06:56.000 So I had to get inside the head of why people needed that.

01:07:00.000 Like, what that did for them on sort of a very general level.

01:07:04.000 It's sort of, it's a community thing or something.

01:07:08.000 Yes.

01:07:09.000 And so there's a way to do it where it feels good, positive, loving, and proportional.

01:07:15.000 Like, it doesn't have to be slavish, and it can be cool.

01:07:17.000 Like, okay, this is the right moment for it.

01:07:20.000 Or I can set this up, and now I can do it.

01:07:22.000 Like, using the Dice Man as an example, I've seen him a couple times.

01:07:25.000 I laugh my...

01:07:27.000 Ass off when I saw him. 0.82

01:07:29.000 And when I saw him, he did his whole routine. 0.98

01:07:31.000 He showed up at the comedy store one night.

01:07:33.000 I just happened to be there with a friend, and he did an unannounced appearance.

01:07:36.000 He was fantastic.

01:07:37.000 And at the end, he kind of made the face, and then he went into it.

01:07:41.000 But it felt like it was the only way he could top the moment.

01:07:45.000 So right in that moment, it felt like, okay, this is cool.

01:07:48.000 Because it feels like, hey, you've been good.

01:07:52.000 We ate the whole cake together.

01:07:53.000 Here's the cherry.

01:07:54.000 But when it feels like I gotta do this because that's the game.

01:07:59.000 I don't know.

01:08:00.000 He went through that whole process himself.

01:08:02.000 Like, he abandoned the rhymes for a long time.

01:08:05.000 Did he even kind of try to abandon the character a bit?

01:08:07.000 I have a little bit of a memory of that.

01:08:08.000 Yeah, he did a television show, like a regular sitcom, and he cried on some TV show, like Arsenio Hall or something like that, about people angry at him for being controversial.

01:08:21.000 Yeah, I don't remember that.

01:08:22.000 The early days of political correctness when MTV first came around, you know?

01:08:27.000 Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a trap that he felt like he was in, and now I think in a similar fashion, maybe similar...

01:08:34.000 And using him as an example, how many comedians have actually risen up to that zeitgeist level?

01:08:42.000 Almost none.

01:08:43.000 There's been like a handful.

01:08:44.000 He was as hot as you could be.

01:08:47.000 Ever.

01:08:48.000 So, paralleling my own self in that way, it does create this weird...

01:08:57.000 Because the 20% who know every song and whatever and know every nuance, the other 80%, they just know the greatest hit thing.

01:09:05.000 It's not their fault.

01:09:07.000 It feels weird, like, is that all I am?

01:09:10.000 I've done all this, you know, didn't you see me when I waved this flag?

01:09:14.000 No, they don't. 0.99

01:09:16.000 All they know is you're the rat in the cage guy.

01:09:18.000 And you can be hostile about it all you want. 0.91

01:09:20.000 It's not going to change.

01:09:22.000 Yeah.

01:09:22.000 I mean, the amount of times I've been in a parking garage or a grocery store or whatever, and somebody who's very nice, very respectful will walk up to me, and that's what they know.

01:09:33.000 And if you can be humble about it, I think, it's pretty amazing that literally I can get off any exit in America, and pretty much anywhere I go, somebody has some reference to what I've done.

01:09:43.000 That's pretty...

01:09:44.000 Pretty remarkable.

01:09:45.000 So if you can get behind that, you can think, oh, that's pretty cool.

01:09:48.000 I'm cool with that.

01:09:48.000 It's not this oppositional thing, like, you should have paid more attention in 94. Right.

01:09:53.000 You know, the revolution was happening.

01:09:55.000 Where were you?

01:09:56.000 You were listening to somebody else, you know?

01:09:58.000 Right, like there's requirements in order to be a fan.

01:10:00.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:01.000 And it's also part and parcel to when you take a fringe movement, which, you know, alternative music, grunge, whatever it was, and it's thrown in the mainstream, those social codes and mores don't translate very well to mainstream code.

01:10:14.000 Yeah.

01:10:15.000 If you look at what pop people have done in the last 10 years, they just steal that stuff.

01:10:19.000 They take this coat and they take this walk and they take this dance and they take this production style and they say, I'll take that.

01:10:26.000 Yeah, they just combine it all together.

01:10:28.000 Yeah.

01:10:29.000 Because that's their gig.

01:10:31.000 I've always wondered what it's like when you're beginning as an artist.

01:10:37.000 You're idealistic.

01:10:39.000 You have all these ideas about what the future could be.

01:10:42.000 Who knows?

01:10:43.000 It's all wide open.

01:10:44.000 And then all of a sudden... 0.99

01:10:46.000 Many years later, you are a fucking massive superstar selling out arenas. 0.99

01:10:51.000 How difficult is it to find people who understand where your head is at? 0.99

01:10:58.000 Impossible.

01:10:58.000 Do you like seek out other superstar musicians and talk to each other?

01:11:03.000 I did and I got nowhere there either.

01:11:05.000 Really?

01:11:05.000 Yeah.

01:11:06.000 I've had a hard time ever getting like good data.

01:11:09.000 Let's put it that way.

01:11:11.000 The freakiest thing was I saw how it changed my inner world, meaning friends and family.

01:11:17.000 How so?

01:11:19.000 My step-grandfather, who was a World War II vet, very closed down, classic Eisenhower Republican type of guy, smart, you know what I mean, had literally zero interest in me as a kid.

01:11:34.000 I mean, negative zero interest.

01:11:37.000 And one day I'm sitting there at Christmas and now Grandpa wants to talk to me about the economics of my success.

01:11:43.000 Whoa.

01:11:44.000 And it's like, that got through to him.

01:11:47.000 Because some guy at work or somebody at the church brought me up.

01:11:51.000 And it was like, oh, that's my grandson.

01:11:54.000 Nothing about childhood.

01:11:57.000 Childhood tears did anything.

01:11:59.000 But I saw where it warped the gravity in my family.

01:12:03.000 And then you get the friend like, you know, you're different.

01:12:05.000 It's like, yeah, I'm different.

01:12:06.000 Of course I'm different.

01:12:07.000 You know what I mean?

01:12:09.000 You know what I mean?

01:12:10.000 It's like, I've got a million dollars in my pocket.

01:12:12.000 You know what I mean?

01:12:13.000 I could buy, you know.

01:12:15.000 I mean, you know, I one day walked into Beverly Hills and paid cash for a Ferrari. 0.98

01:12:20.000 And it's just dumb stuff. 0.84

01:12:21.000 That's kind of awesome, though. 0.92

01:12:22.000 Yeah.

01:12:24.000 People don't like the idea of that.

01:12:26.000 I think it's funny, right?

01:12:28.000 It's amazing.

01:12:28.000 You bought a Ferrari with money that you had on you.

01:12:32.000 That's fucking crazy. 1.00

01:12:33.000 And it was the classic story. 1.00

01:12:35.000 I walk in, you know, the guy didn't know who I was.

01:12:36.000 Of course.

01:12:37.000 He's like, so how are you going to pay for this?

01:12:38.000 And I was like, cash.

01:12:41.000 You have a brick with you.

01:12:44.000 Wow.

01:12:45.000 That's just an awesome thing to be able to do if you can do it. 1.00

01:12:48.000 So stupid, right? 1.00

01:12:49.000 So I'm saying you go from literally complete, not abject, poor. 1.00

01:12:53.000 I had no money. 0.99

01:12:54.000 And then one day I'm throwing G's around for dumb cars. 0.96

01:13:01.000 Well, it's also you've reached such a high level that there's nothing above that. 0.98

01:13:08.000 I have the antidote.

01:13:10.000 My manager, who was, you know, we were with the Metallica guys at the time, he called me on like a Wednesday or something, and he said, I can't say for sure, but more than likely, based on the calls we're getting, you're going to be number one this week, meaning melancholy.

01:13:26.000 And I literally said, is there a position higher?

01:13:29.000 Yeah.

01:13:32.000 Like, I couldn't process that there wasn't, like, another step.

01:13:36.000 You couldn't keep going.

01:13:37.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:13:38.000 Well, that's what I always wondered.

01:13:39.000 Like, when you reach a certain level, and you're selling out these giant arenas, and you're one of the biggest bands literally ever, you're, like, one of the top 100 biggest bands of all time.

01:13:49.000 Right?

01:13:50.000 Arguably.

01:13:51.000 Yeah.

01:13:51.000 We're in there, yeah.

01:13:52.000 It's in there.

01:13:53.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:13:54.000 Where the fuck do you go? 1.00

01:13:56.000 Like, it had to be this weird... 1.00

01:13:57.000 Yeah, I would imagine that madness is the only option.

01:14:00.000 Yeah, madness sort of becomes attractive at that point.

01:14:03.000 God, that's got to be so strange to be just crushing it, selling out these giant arenas, number one songs going, now what? 0.98

01:14:10.000 What the fuck do we do? 0.98

01:14:11.000 Do we fade away? 1.00

01:14:12.000 No, we went crazy.

01:14:13.000 Yeah, we just lost our minds.

01:14:14.000 Like, what happened?

01:14:15.000 What was the process?

01:14:16.000 Did you see it slipping away?

01:14:18.000 Oh, yeah.

01:14:19.000 Did you see the madness?

01:14:19.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:20.000 And it became, you know, it's like a bad relationship or bad relationships.

01:14:24.000 It becomes a lot clearer when you're out.

01:14:28.000 You know, at the time, you sort of do your own rationalization.

01:14:30.000 Like, oh, he or she's going crazy, not me.

01:14:34.000 We all went crazy in four different directions.

01:14:37.000 Wow.

01:14:38.000 And the great shame of my band was musically we were super tight and we never disagreed on music.

01:14:47.000 It was like this weird phenomenon where musically we were like totally in sync.

01:14:52.000 We could produce and write music very very quickly and it was always the other stuff around us.

01:14:56.000 So that sort of ate at the core and then when we lost our personal relationship that's what diminished the musical relationship.

01:15:05.000 But you don't know it at the time.

01:15:07.000 Because you're sort of, I don't want to say arrogance is not the right word, but it's like you have a sort of a, you know, you got a little bit of a thing in your walk and you think, you know, you got the world by the you know what and all good.

01:15:17.000 You think you can power your way through anything because you have.

01:15:21.000 Right.

01:15:21.000 You don't understand that you do actually need the people standing next to you.

01:15:24.000 I have such a greater appreciation for my man-mates now that I've seen what we actually did accomplish.

01:15:31.000 It's surrounded by chaos, but then we created our own chaos, and then at some point it all blurs.

01:15:35.000 What were the things that fucked it up?

01:15:38.000 Was it the money and the fame?

01:15:40.000 Was it the tension?

01:15:41.000 Was it the ego?

01:15:43.000 I think we were like one of those bad behind the musics. 1.00

01:15:47.000 It was a very early conversation.

01:15:51.000 I remember we had these managers very early on and they were coming to town sort of courting us before we had a record deal.

01:15:58.000 And one day they came to town and they said, can we just go out to breakfast with you?

01:16:01.000 Which was weird because it was always the whole band.

01:16:04.000 Like, you know, Democracy.

01:16:06.000 And they said, who writes the songs?

01:16:10.000 And I said, well, I do.

01:16:11.000 And they said, well, that's going to be a problem.

01:16:13.000 I'm like, what do you mean that's going to be a problem?

01:16:15.000 They said, well, songwriters and bands make a lot more money.

01:16:18.000 So our suggestion is you should share your songs with your bandmates to keep sort of a democratic stasis.

01:16:25.000 And they used some examples of bands who didn't.

01:16:26.000 And I thought, hell no, I'm not giving them my work.

01:16:31.000 I mean, it's my songs.

01:16:32.000 And they were like, you don't understand.

01:16:33.000 You're going to make a lot more money.

01:16:34.000 And I was like... 0.99

01:16:35.000 Tough shit, you know what I mean? 1.00

01:16:37.000 It's like, live and learn kind of thing. 1.00

01:16:39.000 Why'd they think you were gonna make more money?

01:16:40.000 Because it would be more successful?

01:16:41.000 Because the songwriters get, if you, quick lesson, the songwriter gets paid separate statutorily by the government than the actual copyright of the recording.

01:16:53.000 So if I'm on Joe Rogan's label, you pay the band for the recording, which of course in that case would be split four ways, but you owe me a statutory rate as a songwriter for the sale, which I think these days is about 10 cents.

01:17:07.000 So every record we sold where I was the sole songwriter, I was getting 10 cents that they weren't getting, or 8 cents or whatever it was at the time.

01:17:15.000 So you can imagine over a gazillion records sold, it added up.

01:17:19.000 Yeah.

01:17:20.000 So I start pulling away financially, But when you're a kid and you're 23 and somebody's having this conversation with you and you literally don't even have an apartment and somebody's trying to tell you how you're going to make a lot more money, it's like, what does that mean?

01:17:34.000 Fast forward four years later and it's like, I'm making a lot more money.

01:17:39.000 So that sort of sows, it organically sows discontent.

01:17:43.000 Yes.

01:17:44.000 You know, it's a, whether you call it jealousy or not.

01:17:46.000 And then as I emerged as sort of the auteur and the big mouth in the band and maybe the person who was most willing to be controversial or whatever, we'd get in a room with journalists and they would just talk to me.

01:17:57.000 And then we'd get out of the interviews and the band members would yell at me for them not being asked questions.

01:18:04.000 So it's like this weird thing like it was my responsibility to push them more as stars or...

01:18:11.000 Yeah, so it's not just about the music.

01:18:12.000 It's about being appreciated and successful and famous.

01:18:15.000 Now, in hindsight and in fairness to them, I didn't appreciate why it was important to them.

01:18:20.000 Because in their minds, we're all equal.

01:18:22.000 We're in the room together.

01:18:24.000 Yeah, you write the songs.

01:18:25.000 That's cool.

01:18:25.000 But at least give me the social currency of being recognized or...

01:18:31.000 Yeah.

01:18:32.000 Or somebody would offer me alone a magazine cover.

01:18:36.000 And if I was smart, which I wasn't, I should have said, no, only the band or nothing.

01:18:41.000 But I was like, sure, put me on the cover.

01:18:43.000 I'll take it.

01:18:44.000 You know what I mean?

01:18:44.000 Right.

01:18:44.000 You probably would have thought they would do the same thing if someone came to that.

01:18:48.000 Absolutely.

01:18:49.000 Yeah.

01:18:49.000 Absolutely.

01:18:50.000 And then, of course, it becomes tit for tat.

01:18:52.000 Then, like, two of the band members went on their own and made a record deal without me.

01:18:57.000 They got somebody to give them a bunch of money to start a label.

01:19:01.000 Which they had every right to do.

01:19:02.000 You know what I mean?

01:19:03.000 So suddenly they're like making side deals and it starts getting all that weird business.

01:19:07.000 Right.

01:19:08.000 Now again, it's like an erosion factor.

01:19:10.000 You don't appreciate it from within.

01:19:12.000 There's a lot of compression.

01:19:13.000 There's a lot of money.

01:19:13.000 There's a lot of stuff going on.

01:19:14.000 And then one day it sort of hollows out.

01:19:16.000 And then it's too late.

01:19:17.000 You know, you can't just sort of sit down and have a meeting and make it all okay.

01:19:20.000 Because the wounds are deep.

01:19:21.000 And in our case, I mean, the wounds lasted for...

01:19:24.000 I didn't talk to Darcy for 17 years.

01:19:28.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:19:29.000 And I didn't talk to James for, I think, 16?

01:19:32.000 Wow.

01:19:33.000 The heat was real.

01:19:35.000 There were lawsuits and all sorts of stuff.

01:19:37.000 It's such a common story that I hope someone listens to this part of your conversation as well.

01:19:43.000 They won't.

01:19:44.000 It's just human nature, right?

01:19:46.000 Is that what it is?

01:19:47.000 Power corrupts, man.

01:19:48.000 Yeah.

01:19:50.000 And again, you know, no sympathy asking here.

01:19:52.000 But wouldn't today, though?

01:19:54.000 I mean...

01:19:54.000 What's that?

01:19:55.000 It wouldn't today.

01:19:56.000 Like, I feel like if you were in a similar position today, you'd have hindsight in your favor.

01:20:00.000 Oh, yeah.

01:20:01.000 No, no, I would...

01:20:02.000 Yeah, I mean, and even talking about the band going back on a tour and the possibility of that, it's like, I approach it completely different.

01:20:08.000 Yeah.

01:20:09.000 So that's what I'm saying.

01:20:10.000 Like, power doesn't necessarily corrupt. 0.98

01:20:11.000 It corrupts if you don't know what the fuck it's gonna do to you. 0.98

01:20:14.000 Sure, yeah. 0.99

01:20:15.000 But again, and...

01:20:18.000 I'm not preaching for sympathy, and I can't speak for the modern music business, but the business we were in in the 90s, we were surrounded by people who were giving us wrong information.

01:20:30.000 Now, were they giving us wrong information on purpose or because they weren't bright enough?

01:20:33.000 I don't know, but we weren't getting the right information.

01:20:36.000 Very few people actually try to sit us down and say, look, this is going to be a problem.

01:20:40.000 Trust me.

01:20:42.000 You know, it's like you're in there with the hounds and there's just...

01:20:45.000 Right.

01:20:46.000 And they probably don't have the time for psychological management anyway.

01:20:49.000 They're probably in the middle of just trying to figure out how to make money off you.

01:20:52.000 My understanding is they, and again, going back to the conversation I had with the executive, they just basically look and they say, you've got four years if you're lucky.

01:21:00.000 If you're lucky.

01:21:01.000 So why are they going to...

01:21:03.000 Why are they going to spend a bunch of time trying to hold your hand knowing you're going to lose anyway?

01:21:08.000 What a crazy relationship between the record labels and the artists.

01:21:12.000 It's similar, I guess, probably to like the Pit Boss.

01:21:15.000 If you're having a hot run at like Roulette, the Pit Boss is just like...

01:21:20.000 Enjoy it now.

01:21:21.000 Yeah.

01:21:22.000 Because we're going to get it back.

01:21:23.000 That's what it feels like.

01:21:24.000 What percentage of musicians or musical artists that get signed by a label and put something out ever wind up having an actually successful career?

01:21:37.000 Probably less than 10%.

01:21:40.000 Jesus Christ.

01:21:41.000 I would say it's probably even smaller.

01:21:43.000 What a meat grinder of a business. 0.99

01:21:45.000 You would think like, hey, man, we're on fucking Warner Brothers, dude. 0.99

01:21:48.000 We made it. 0.98

01:21:49.000 It's happening.

01:21:50.000 They're going to promote us.

01:21:51.000 They're going to push us.

01:21:51.000 They signed us.

01:21:52.000 And sorry to interrupt again, but the other weird thing is, again, the system I was in was even if you were successful, it was set up to make you feel like you weren't successful.

01:22:03.000 Right.

01:22:04.000 Because that was the work.

01:22:05.000 That was the manipulation.

01:22:08.000 Yeah.

01:22:09.000 Yeah.

01:22:09.000 I once said to somebody who is a very famous name in the business, it's like you guys find a needle in the haystack and then you spend the next 20 years telling them they're not a needle in the haystack.

01:22:20.000 Right.

01:22:22.000 What I'm trying to say, and I'm not saying it well, is you would think you would be surrounded by people who are telling you, you're talented, you're special, we want to help you because the more you succeed, we'll succeed and we'll all succeed together.

01:22:35.000 It was the exact opposite. 0.99

01:22:36.000 It was like, no, you're dumb. 1.00

01:22:37.000 You're wrong. 1.00

01:22:38.000 No, you're crazy. 0.99

01:22:40.000 Don't do that. 1.00

01:22:41.000 You're going to ruin it.

01:22:43.000 And then, and even if you'd say, I want to wear this hat, okay?

01:22:47.000 I'm gonna wear this hat.

01:22:48.000 And when it wouldn't work, they'd say, see, you should listen to us.

01:22:51.000 Is that universal?

01:22:53.000 Have you heard other musicians say the same thing?

01:22:55.000 I would guess it was universal, because looking back, it doesn't feel personal to me.

01:22:58.000 It felt like I, you know, use your bad analogy, pimp ho, I don't know. 1.00

01:23:03.000 It's a weird con job thing.

01:23:06.000 That was my experience.

01:23:08.000 It was a lot of con jobs.

01:23:10.000 That Courtney Love piece that she wrote about the music business, I'm sure you're aware of that.

01:23:15.000 Was it recent?

01:23:16.000 No, a bunch of years ago.

01:23:19.000 I think it was actually probably before digital got really huge.

01:23:25.000 A lot of people thought she had a ghostwriter, but it was really...

01:23:30.000 Eye-opening to a lot of people that didn't know anything about the music business, like where the money actually goes and how much money has to be spent and how little you actually make, even though if you sell a shit ton of records.

01:23:42.000 You've never seen this?

01:23:43.000 No, no.

01:23:44.000 It's from 2000, actually.

01:23:45.000 It's on salon.com.

01:23:46.000 It might have been one of the years we weren't talking.

01:23:49.000 Oh, there you go.

01:23:49.000 Yeah.

01:23:53.000 Well, for people who haven't read it, it's pretty eye-opening.

01:23:56.000 I have nothing to do with the music business, so I've always been absolutely fascinated as a completely objective observer just looking at it.

01:24:03.000 This whole thing seems so crazy because if you do not get signed and if you do not get promoted, at least until recently, you had no chance.

01:24:12.000 They literally controlled the reins and the direction of your career, almost like an actor.

01:24:17.000 You can't make it as an actor unless you get an audition and someone chooses to put you in a film.

01:24:22.000 But like a great Greek mythology type myth thing, the music business has made two critical mistakes over the last 30 or so years that led to its current sort of reduced status.

01:24:34.000 One was they let MTV run amok on free content and I think?

01:25:06.000 Those two critical errors led to the music business reduced position.

01:25:12.000 Music has been around forever, but the music business has been around, what, 100 or so years?

01:25:18.000 Yeah, I think we're into 120 plus years of recordings.

01:25:22.000 Yeah, it's just amazing what an iron fist they've managed to control the business with and to sort of wrangle the artists for the most part.

01:25:34.000 Well, it's Wizard of Oz, you know, don't look behind the curtain.

01:25:39.000 Have you ever thought about being on the other side?

01:25:42.000 Yeah, I have, but I just don't have that much.

01:25:44.000 I'm actually, that's why I'm more interested in wrestling.

01:25:46.000 I think I like that.

01:25:46.000 I like the, even though it's a sort of weird business, I sort of like that because it doesn't have anything to do with music.

01:25:52.000 I have too much damage and too many, I don't think I could see clearly.

01:25:56.000 Does it make sense?

01:25:56.000 It's like, it's still too weird for me.

01:25:59.000 Yeah, no, it does.

01:26:00.000 It does make sense.

01:26:01.000 When I first came to LA in, whatever, 90, and had the meetings, and you'd be in that office and the people with the beards and everything, and they'd be like, so when we put the product out, and every time they would say product, I would sort of wince.

01:26:16.000 Product!

01:26:18.000 How can you call my art product?

01:26:20.000 You know what I mean?

01:26:20.000 And that's, to them, it's just, it's cookies and toilet paper.

01:26:24.000 It's just, it's whatever.

01:26:26.000 And, um, and it's not to say they're not fans and they don't appreciate, you know, or they don't care, but at the end of the day, it's just some sort of weird business, you know, and like all institutional cultures that are sort of kind of corrupt at their core, it just sort of runs on its own inertia.

01:26:40.000 It's just, it just does.

01:26:42.000 When you see someone like Chance the Rapper break out of that system, do you think that that's a model that can be followed, or is he just like an outlier?

01:26:49.000 No, it's certainly a model that can be followed, but it probably works because he's so talented.

01:26:54.000 It's like a weird combination.

01:26:56.000 I mean, use the McGregor example.

01:26:58.000 It's like, how many McGregors are there in the world? 1.00

01:27:00.000 And beyond being a skilled fighter, I mean, the guy's an A-level talker.

01:27:05.000 Speaking from a professional wrestling standpoint, the guy's probably the best promo in the world.

01:27:09.000 Yeah.

01:27:10.000 No, he's the best.

01:27:12.000 As far as MMA guys.

01:27:13.000 And it's also, he is in this very unique position where he has insane support from Ireland.

01:27:20.000 I mean, insane.

01:27:21.000 You've never seen anything like it.

01:27:23.000 I've been calling fights for a long time.

01:27:25.000 I've been working for the UFC since 97. I've never seen anybody like him.

01:27:30.000 I've never seen any support like the support the Irish people have for him. 0.99

01:27:34.000 It's fucking crazy. 0.97

01:27:35.000 Did you see the videos of when he fought Mayweather? 0.99

01:27:38.000 Not even where they fought.

01:27:40.000 They were in Mandalay Bay.

01:27:42.000 Irish had flooded Mandalay Bay.

01:27:46.000 You know that walkway from Mandalay Bay as you walk towards the arena and towards where the shark exhibit is?

01:27:51.000 There was nothing but Irish people singing. 1.00

01:27:56.000 And it's fucking crazy, man. 1.00

01:27:58.000 It's like, who organized this? 0.99

01:28:00.000 No one.

01:28:01.000 Who told them to start singing?

01:28:02.000 They did it organically.

01:28:04.000 As an Irish descendant, we've been waiting for a long time for a Conor McGregor.

01:28:08.000 Yeah, man, I guess.

01:28:09.000 I mean, poets and mono, you know what I mean?

01:28:12.000 Yeah.

01:28:13.000 We needed a fighter in there, too.

01:28:14.000 Yeah, someone who's fun.

01:28:16.000 Yeah, but to see all those people cheer and scream.

01:28:19.000 I was talking to Daniel Cormier about it this past weekend.

01:28:23.000 He's like, there's no one like him.

01:28:24.000 He goes, because he loses.

01:28:26.000 He doesn't lose any support.

01:28:28.000 It doesn't change anything.

01:28:30.000 And people respect the fact that he took a chance.

01:28:41.000 Yes.

01:28:43.000 Yes.

01:28:53.000 Well, I mean, you have to really wonder.

01:28:57.000 It hasn't been established what happened, right?

01:29:01.000 So there's a lot of speculation.

01:29:02.000 I don't know if you know the most recent speculation that I talked about the other day, but the most recent speculation is that John might have snorted cocaine that was cut with creatine that was contaminated with steroids.

01:29:15.000 Because if you look at the timeline, I know, if you look at the timeline, and John loves some cocaine, but if you look at the timeline of when John tested negative and when John tested positive, it is preposterous to think that he thought that he could take it and not pass.

01:29:33.000 Right.

01:29:34.000 The fight coincides with 10 days out from his birthday party, where he apparently got blitzkrieged.

01:29:41.000 So it is entirely possible that, and this is just massive speculation, but we have done some research online and found that there have been cases of creatine that was contaminated by cheap creatine from China, contaminated with steroids.

01:29:57.000 Specifically the type of steroid that he tested positive for.

01:30:00.000 And creatine is often used to cut cocaine, apparently.

01:30:06.000 So it is entirely possible that he did blow, and that blow had steroids in it through the contaminated creatine.

01:30:13.000 Okay, but back to Cormier.

01:30:14.000 So, Cormier lost. 0.68

01:30:17.000 The question is, did he lose because John Jones is a cheater?

01:30:21.000 Or did he lose because Jon Jones is an amazing fighter?

01:30:25.000 So the second one would be harder to deal with. 0.97

01:30:29.000 Because if he lost because Jon Jones is an amazing fighter who did coke 10 days out before their title fight and kicked his ass, and now they give Daniel the title back... 0.92

01:30:41.000 It's very weird. 0.87

01:30:42.000 Yeah, that's why I was asking more as a fan, like the psychological perspective. 0.99

01:30:46.000 We need a real fucking lie detector test. 0.99

01:30:49.000 That's what we need. 0.98

01:30:50.000 We value honesty so much, and there's very little other than some rudimentary observations they can make with FMRI, functional magnetic imaging, resonance imaging.

01:31:05.000 Would you want to be lie detected?

01:31:07.000 Yes!

01:31:08.000 Strap me up, man! 0.71

01:31:09.000 That would be a good podcast.

01:31:10.000 I try to tell the truth...

01:31:11.000 Have you done that podcast?

01:31:12.000 ...as much as humanly possible.

01:31:14.000 That'd be funny, right?

01:31:15.000 No, I've never been...

01:31:15.000 Have you ever...

01:31:16.000 Like, have you ever thought about so-and-so in a particular way? 0.77

01:31:21.000 I jump at the opportunity to expose things that I think are fucked up about me. 0.91

01:31:25.000 But that one...

01:31:28.000 I mean, when it comes to, like, cheating in combat sports, it has such an intense significance to it that it's not an option or it's not a factor in other sports.

01:31:40.000 It's that you can cause damage to your opponent, like physical damage that could affect them for the rest of their life.

01:31:44.000 Right, right.

01:31:45.000 Like, that was the case with Vitor Belfort when he fought Michael Bisping.

01:31:48.000 He head-kicked Bisping and knocked him out, and Bisping suffered a really badly detached retina in his eye and went on to have...

01:31:57.000 I think several surgeries and now has oil in his eye.

01:32:00.000 If you look at his eye, there's permanent oil to protect his retina that he has to leave in there until he decides to quit fighting and then he'll have another surgery on it.

01:32:09.000 And the question is, did Vitor land that because he's highly skilled or did he land it because he's highly skilled and taking testosterone?

01:32:21.000 You increase your ability to cause damage and that changes the game.

01:32:25.000 It's not like hitting a baseball.

01:32:26.000 If a guy's on steroids and he hits a baseball and his team won and your team lost, I get how the team would be upset that he's a cheater.

01:32:32.000 But it's just not the same impact.

01:32:36.000 It doesn't have the same ramifications.

01:32:39.000 Especially when you're talking about the angle of a punch and a tenth of a second being the difference between a glancing blow and a knockout.

01:32:48.000 That's what's so crazy.

01:32:50.000 You get into this fractional idea of what is just.

01:32:54.000 There's so many factors.

01:32:55.000 There's speed, there's the amount of energy that you have, and then there's psychological factors like confidence.

01:33:01.000 There's no metric to figure out what...

01:33:05.000 What kind of an effect being a juiced-up psychopath has? 0.95

01:33:09.000 Like if you're someone who like Vitor Belfort who's already highly skilled and then you pump him full of steroids and he comes out there like motherfucker like he just like feels like he can't lose and then he has so much confidence and then all this skill on top of that I hate to pick on him, 0.83

01:33:25.000 but he's my favorite example because the difference between him on testosterone and him off testosterone is so radical.

01:33:33.000 There's been these photos side to side of the two of them together and you're just like, wow.

01:33:39.000 One of them's a destroyer, the other one is a dad.

01:33:42.000 He's a dad bod.

01:33:44.000 It's weird.

01:33:47.000 So if that's the case with Jon Jones, what do you want to pull it up?

01:33:49.000 It's a related breaking story right now.

01:33:52.000 Uh-oh.

01:33:53.000 Yeah, there's two breaking stories in the MMA world right now.

01:33:56.000 I'll go with this one since you're talking about it.

01:33:58.000 Anderson Silva fails out of UFC Shanghai main event.

01:34:02.000 Makes sense.

01:34:03.000 He's 40. What did he fail for?

01:34:05.000 Did it say?

01:34:06.000 It doesn't say it was a sample B test that failed from October 26th collection.

01:34:11.000 Huh.

01:34:12.000 So it was a couple weeks ago.

01:34:14.000 That's interesting.

01:34:15.000 From a sample B test.

01:34:17.000 Sorry, I didn't say sample.

01:34:18.000 It just says sample collected.

01:34:19.000 Oh, okay.

01:34:20.000 Didn't say the actual drug.

01:34:22.000 Because they don't test sample B unless sample A is...

01:34:25.000 Well, I'm not surprised.

01:34:27.000 This is the other thing going on right now.

01:34:29.000 Conor McGregor jumps the cage at Bellator 187, confronts referee Mark Goddard.

01:34:33.000 Oh.

01:34:33.000 Yeah.

01:34:34.000 Yeah, I heard about that.

01:34:35.000 Definitely don't do that.

01:34:37.000 Yeah, I don't know what that was about.

01:34:39.000 I don't know why he did that.

01:34:41.000 Yeah, you like that though.

01:34:42.000 Look, the wrestling. 0.63

01:34:43.000 I'm already booking the main event.

01:34:46.000 How do you have time for that wrestling stuff?

01:34:50.000 I just make time.

01:34:51.000 You just make time because you enjoy it?

01:34:52.000 Yeah, I love it, yeah. 0.99

01:34:56.000 For all those fucking crazy emo kids that are just massive Smashing Pumpkins fans, there's so many of them that must drive them nuts. 0.99

01:35:03.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:35:04.000 That's part of it.

01:35:05.000 That's wrestling. 1.00

01:35:06.000 Tough shit, right? 1.00

01:35:07.000 It is what it is. 1.00

01:35:08.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:35:08.000 Yeah.

01:35:09.000 So to answer your question, Daniel Cormier is an awesome guy.

01:35:12.000 I mean, it really breaks my heart when I see people get upset and boo him, people that don't like him.

01:35:18.000 I just don't think they know him.

01:35:20.000 And for whatever reason, he is...

01:35:23.000 I mean, to just be completely honest, he's always going to be in the shadow of the greatest light heavyweight champion of all time, and that's John.

01:35:29.000 John's the greatest. 0.99

01:35:30.000 I mean, he's so uniquely talented and special, and just there's something about him all across the board, and part of his partying and all that shit is kind of connected to that, because he's fucking wild. 0.97

01:35:44.000 It's one of the reasons why. 0.92

01:35:45.000 When he fought Shogun for the title, he was 23 years old.

01:35:50.000 He opens the fight with a flying knee.

01:35:53.000 Who fights a legend like Mauricio Shogun Hua, who was one of the greatest ever in Pride, former light heavyweight champion at the time?

01:36:03.000 Jon Jones fights him.

01:36:05.000 He's 23 years old, and his opening move is a flying knee that lands.

01:36:09.000 I mean, he's just uniquely improvisational, creative, wild, talented, physically incredibly dominant, very strong.

01:36:20.000 Got a crazy body for the game, like really long limbs.

01:36:23.000 Yeah, the long thing, yeah.

01:36:25.000 And strong, though.

01:36:26.000 He's not frail.

01:36:27.000 Like, the difference between John is he's got long limbs, but he has that strong wrestling base.

01:36:33.000 Yeah.

01:36:33.000 So even though he's like a thin guy, he's very physically strong.

01:36:37.000 It's a strange comparison to make, but back in the day, I used to hang out a lot with Dennis Rodman when he was playing for the Bulls, and he had freakish strength, kind of similar body, like very long, like you wouldn't look at him and think muscles, and Rodman could pick a 250-pound man up with one hand and lift him over a rope.

01:36:56.000 I saw him do it at a club.

01:36:58.000 Really?

01:36:58.000 The guy was acting up and Dennis just reached over and the guy picked him up like this.

01:37:01.000 Jesus.

01:37:02.000 And then even people would remember NBA fans, Dennis used to guard Shaq.

01:37:09.000 One-on-one.

01:37:10.000 Yeah.

01:37:11.000 And that was when Shaq was, what, you know, 340 or something? 0.93

01:37:14.000 Right, right.

01:37:14.000 And that was when they had the whole thing, you couldn't use your hand, you had the elbow and all that stuff.

01:37:18.000 He'd guard them one-on-one.

01:37:20.000 Freakish strength.

01:37:21.000 And you're like, you look at him, you think, how is that possible?

01:37:23.000 Yeah.

01:37:24.000 Some guys just have that weird, whatever that is.

01:37:27.000 It's a lot of times it's those long guys too.

01:37:29.000 Something is about long limbs and leverage and it's like they have this if they have as long as they have a certain amount of muscle with that long those long limbs and long leverage.

01:37:39.000 Look at this.

01:37:40.000 Okay, freakish.

01:37:42.000 And this, you know, this is like the era I'm hanging out with Dennis.

01:37:44.000 I mean, look at Dennis' size compared to Shaq. 1.00

01:37:47.000 If you didn't know it was Dennis Rodman, it was just some, you know, NBA scrub, right?

01:37:52.000 You would think there's no way that guy's going to guard him one-on-one.

01:37:55.000 Especially Shaq in his prime there.

01:37:57.000 There's no way.

01:37:58.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:38:00.000 Rodman is a crazy guy. 0.99

01:38:03.000 Speaking crazy. 0.99

01:38:04.000 Can I tell you a funny story?

01:38:05.000 Please.

01:38:06.000 I've got a good story.

01:38:06.000 I used to hang out a lot with Dennis.

01:38:11.000 Hadn't seen him for years.

01:38:12.000 Was at a restaurant in Chicago not too long ago.

01:38:17.000 And somebody said, oh, you guys are friends with Dennis, right?

01:38:20.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:38:20.000 Oh, he's upstairs.

01:38:21.000 Oh, really?

01:38:22.000 We go upstairs.

01:38:22.000 Dennis is crying.

01:38:23.000 Oh, my God, I miss you guys.

01:38:25.000 Me and my buddy.

01:38:26.000 We're hanging out with him, telling old stories.

01:38:29.000 You know, seven or eight years, haven't seen him.

01:38:31.000 This is great.

01:38:31.000 Like, when you see a buddy you really love, and it's really affectionate.

01:38:35.000 And Dennis is one of those people.

01:38:37.000 At some point, he just gets up and he wanders away.

01:38:39.000 I think he's going to take a piss, okay?

01:38:41.000 About ten minutes goes by.

01:38:43.000 I say to the waitress, did Dennis leave?

01:38:45.000 Yeah, he left.

01:38:46.000 Okay.

01:38:46.000 I just figure he's gone.

01:38:48.000 It's just the way he is.

01:38:49.000 Right.

01:38:49.000 He wouldn't even say goodbye.

01:38:50.000 Just gone.

01:38:51.000 I get up the next morning.

01:38:52.000 I turn the television.

01:38:53.000 Dennis Rodman's in North Korea.

01:38:57.000 Okay?

01:38:58.000 By the way, I spent an hour and a half with him.

01:39:00.000 He didn't say anything about going to North Korea, right?

01:39:02.000 Oh, God.

01:39:02.000 So I turn on the television.

01:39:03.000 It's like, very controversial.

01:39:05.000 Dennis Rodman's in North Korea.

01:39:06.000 So I text my buddy.

01:39:08.000 And I say...

01:39:10.000 Have you seen the news?

01:39:12.000 No.

01:39:12.000 What?

01:39:13.000 I say, turn on the television.

01:39:15.000 And he said, what channel?

01:39:16.000 And I said, it doesn't matter. 1.00

01:39:19.000 Two minutes goes by, holy fuck. 0.99

01:39:22.000 Because he went through the same thing, you know? 1.00

01:39:24.000 Wow.

01:39:25.000 Yeah, what is his deal with that North Korean dude?

01:39:28.000 He just goes over there and hangs out with him and plays basketball.

01:39:31.000 Dennis is really a genuine, you know, a naive-hearted person.

01:39:36.000 So, in my best understanding is he truly believes he can affect the world in a positive way.

01:39:42.000 So he really feels like...

01:39:43.000 There's not a bad bone in Dennis' body.

01:39:46.000 Wow.

01:39:46.000 Dennis has his issues, but he's not a bad-hearted guy.

01:39:49.000 So in his kind of crazy ideological frame, he actually thinks he's helping.

01:39:53.000 So he thinks he can go over there and talk some sense into that guy.

01:39:56.000 Or by playing basketball, you know, whatever he's...

01:40:00.000 Yeah, that's just so strange.

01:40:02.000 That's not a good shot.

01:40:03.000 I mean, you know what I mean?

01:40:04.000 It's not a good look.

01:40:05.000 Yeah, I mean, he's hanging around with a murderous dictator, hoping for the best.

01:40:09.000 But that's what I mean about the naivete, and I don't mean to cast shade on Dennis.

01:40:12.000 I really love Dennis.

01:40:13.000 He's been nothing but a total sweetheart to me in my life.

01:40:17.000 But Dennis would, in a very naive way, believe that he's actually helping.

01:40:22.000 It's a very gangster move to go over there, though.

01:40:25.000 I mean, it seems very dangerous.

01:40:27.000 But that's where the other side of Dennis makes a certain sense.

01:40:29.000 It's like, I'll do it.

01:40:30.000 Yeah.

01:40:31.000 Remember when he was dressing up in drag? 0.97

01:40:33.000 Yeah.

01:40:33.000 You know, it's like, I'll be that guy.

01:40:35.000 Yeah.

01:40:36.000 So somehow it sort of works in his...

01:40:38.000 Again, I'm not trying to speak for him, but...

01:40:39.000 He was one of my favorite guys in celebrity rehab, because he was, like, working out every day, drinking water.

01:40:44.000 Dude, I used to go into the Bulls locker room after games, and he would work out after games.

01:40:49.000 Really?

01:40:50.000 Yeah.

01:40:52.000 We go in to go, because we were going to go out clubbing or whatever, and you go in the locker room and he'd be working out.

01:40:58.000 We'd have to sit and wait for him to work out for another 40 minutes after the game.

01:41:02.000 And he played, it wasn't like he had a knee injury.

01:41:05.000 I mean, he played the whole game.

01:41:08.000 Like what kind of workouts?

01:41:09.000 Like lifting weights or something?

01:41:11.000 Treadmill, you know, whatever he was doing.

01:41:13.000 Wow.

01:41:13.000 And it wasn't like light stretching.

01:41:16.000 It was like...

01:41:16.000 Energizing.

01:41:18.000 And then we'd go out and stay out all night.

01:41:22.000 Jesus.

01:41:22.000 You want a quick story?

01:41:24.000 So I'm hanging out with the Bulls.

01:41:26.000 It's the first time they're playing Utah.

01:41:31.000 It's a series the Bulls probably should have lost.

01:41:34.000 But they didn't.

01:41:36.000 It's the famous series where Michael had the flu and scored 36 points.

01:41:41.000 I don't know if you know that game.

01:41:42.000 It's like one of the most famous games.

01:41:43.000 Michael legit had crazy flu and scored 36 and they won the game.

01:41:47.000 And they won the series.

01:41:48.000 So in between one of those games...

01:41:51.000 Dennis knows some billionaire.

01:41:53.000 There's a day off.

01:41:54.000 We get on the billionaire's plane and we fly to Vegas.

01:41:57.000 We stay out all night gambling.

01:41:59.000 And this is Dennis like...

01:42:02.000 You know, rubbing dice on people's bodies and throwing the dice so drunk they're bouncing out of the craps pit.

01:42:08.000 I mean, just total mess.

01:42:09.000 And you're thinking, how is this going to help us win a championship?

01:42:12.000 Very much a fan mentality.

01:42:14.000 I'm thinking, you know, naively, I'm going to kind of rein them in.

01:42:18.000 So we stay out all night.

01:42:22.000 We never go to bed.

01:42:24.000 We fly on the private plane back to make the morning press shoot-around back in Utah.

01:42:32.000 So we've only been in Vegas for like eight hours.

01:42:36.000 So 9 a.m.

01:42:37.000 I'm sitting in the stands.

01:42:38.000 I haven't slept at all.

01:42:41.000 They do the whatever, the shoot-around.

01:42:43.000 And Dennis walks up and says, let's go back.

01:42:45.000 Go back where?

01:42:47.000 The hotel?

01:42:48.000 No.

01:42:48.000 Let's go back to Vegas.

01:42:50.000 So after the morning shoot-around, drove to the airport to fly commercial, because now the billionaire's not flying him back again, and gets on a plane commercial and is giving me shit because I don't want to go back to Vegas with him. 0.99

01:43:03.000 Jesus Christ. 0.99

01:43:03.000 On the off day. 0.99

01:43:05.000 And this is during the NBA Finals.

01:43:08.000 So through some sort of weird, you know, how the world works, I end up somewhere...

01:43:15.000 I go to play miniature golf or something in Park City, Utah where the Bulls were staying.

01:43:20.000 And Phil Jackson and his family just happened to be there on like an off day.

01:43:23.000 And Phil's giving me the look of death because I'm the one responsible for Dennis going to Vegas.

01:43:29.000 The rock star dragged him to party and you ruined it. 0.66

01:43:32.000 I'm the bad guy.

01:43:32.000 Oh, that's hilarious.

01:43:33.000 And I'm thinking, you don't understand.

01:43:34.000 I'm the one who tell him not to go.

01:43:36.000 I want to win a championship.

01:43:38.000 Did you tell him?

01:43:39.000 No.

01:43:39.000 What are you going to say to Phil Jackson?

01:43:41.000 Have you ever met Phil Jackson?

01:43:42.000 No.

01:43:42.000 Phil Jackson's an intimidating guy.

01:43:45.000 He plays very zen on TV, but in person he's very intimidating. 0.95

01:43:49.000 6'7", 6'8".

01:43:51.000 And he was legitimately upset at you?

01:43:54.000 Let's just say it wasn't a nice encounter.

01:43:58.000 And I love Phil Jackson.

01:43:59.000 I mean, I love those years, I love those teams, and I was lucky to be around them a lot.

01:44:04.000 I used to say, look, watching this team is like 1927 Yankees.

01:44:07.000 I mean, you will look back very fondly on this time, and to even be in that bubble at all, and it was awesome.

01:44:14.000 But yeah, I mean, catching shade from Phil Jackson at the height of the Bulls thing, it was just so funny.

01:44:19.000 And I'm playing miniature golf, and you know, it's so uncomfortable.

01:44:22.000 That is hilarious.

01:44:24.000 Do you still keep in touch with Dennis?

01:44:26.000 No, Dennis is sort of, he kind of trotted out into the ether, and I, you know, it's hard to follow.

01:44:32.000 Under my thing, it falls under what I call the celeb friendship. 0.94

01:44:36.000 I've, at various times, had to have, I've tried to have friendships, legitimate friendships with very famous people, and the way they run their worlds is, I'm sure you've encountered, it's like, you've got to go through this guy to talk to this guy, and then the message doesn't get through, and I think, oh, fuck all that, 0.91

01:44:52.000 I'm not doing that. 0.58

01:44:53.000 Yeah, I don't...

01:44:53.000 If I can't just text you, I can't be friends with you.

01:44:56.000 Yeah, it gets into the weird thing of, like, you tell Larry the guy, and then Larry never tells the guy, and then the guy's upset at Larry, but Larry's looking at you like, we had to go do this thing, and I just...

01:45:08.000 I can't do any of that.

01:45:09.000 Yeah, there's a few guys that are like that, right?

01:45:11.000 There's a few...

01:45:12.000 It's weird.

01:45:13.000 I feel like...

01:45:15.000 When someone reaches a certain level of success, especially fame, they get people to sort of handle certain menial tasks and then that person sort of becomes their babysitter.

01:45:28.000 Yeah.

01:45:29.000 I have very few friends that are famous and it's one-on-one.

01:45:33.000 Yeah.

01:45:34.000 Or forget it.

01:45:35.000 No, it's the only way to do it.

01:45:36.000 Even if I'm a fan.

01:45:37.000 I mean, there are people I've, you know, I could call them up kind of thing.

01:45:41.000 That, I mean, they're like my absolute idols.

01:45:43.000 But if I can't have that rapport, it's like, forget it.

01:45:45.000 It's just, it's almost too weird.

01:45:47.000 It's like...

01:45:48.000 Am I a fan guy hanging around hoping he's going to throw me a bone and talk to me about their second album?

01:45:55.000 It gets into that kind of uncomfortable space.

01:45:57.000 You're making the same mistake I don't want people to make.

01:46:00.000 Right.

01:46:00.000 I don't want people around me, like some of my friends, they talk to me like I'm the guy from Glendale Heights.

01:46:06.000 Like, there's no star trip with me.

01:46:09.000 Like, I want everyone to be straight up.

01:46:11.000 I don't want any of that.

01:46:12.000 I don't need it.

01:46:13.000 Well, it's like what you were talking about, turning 50. You know, like, you're 50, don't give a fuck anymore. 1.00

01:46:19.000 It's like, that's one of the good things about it. 1.00

01:46:20.000 Well, technically I did give a fuck before 50, but now I get to declare it, yeah. 0.95

01:46:23.000 But it's great that you're willing to be this guy and be yourself openly because one of the things about music in particular, but I guess a lot of other areas of show business too, is that people really protect that image. 0.98

01:46:37.000 They protect that brand.

01:46:39.000 They protect that thing that they're projecting to their fans.

01:46:42.000 They have this idea of what their fans want, and they hold that really sacred.

01:46:46.000 But I think pulling the curtain back the way you do, I think it's very brave, but it's also very important.

01:46:54.000 I've certainly had moments in my life where I wondered if I had to do all over again.

01:46:59.000 Like sometimes I'll riff with a journalist that I know enough to sort of riff with.

01:47:04.000 And I say, because sometimes they'll say like, do you feel you're underappreciated as an artist or you didn't feel you didn't get the due you deserve?

01:47:12.000 And I'm like, yeah, that's absolutely.

01:47:13.000 And maybe everybody feels that way, but I certainly feel that way.

01:47:16.000 And so my little funny blob question for them is, if I'd never opened my mouth And all you had on me was my music.

01:47:26.000 Would you have a different opinion?

01:47:28.000 And they always say the same thing.

01:47:29.000 Absolutely.

01:47:31.000 That's weird, right?

01:47:32.000 Yeah.

01:47:33.000 So, did my mouth, you know, boot me down the ladder?

01:47:37.000 You know what I mean?

01:47:38.000 I don't know.

01:47:39.000 It's fun to play.

01:47:40.000 It's like a parlor game.

01:47:40.000 It's too late now.

01:47:41.000 Well, I think it's a different opinion, but it's not a lesser or greater opinion.

01:47:45.000 I mean, my opinion of you is greater, seeing that you are this very open, honest, regular...

01:47:50.000 But if I knew you, like, if I didn't know of your music, I would go, oh, he's a regular guy.

01:47:56.000 Yeah, but a lot of people don't like that.

01:47:58.000 They don't like regular guys.

01:47:59.000 No.

01:47:59.000 It's a fantasy world.

01:48:01.000 Yeah, that's part of the music business, right?

01:48:04.000 Yeah.

01:48:05.000 I gotta ask you this one thing for us.

01:48:06.000 Sure, sure.

01:48:07.000 Because I read this, and I was like, what?

01:48:10.000 Here we go.

01:48:11.000 You saw someone shapeshift?

01:48:14.000 Oh, God. 1.00

01:48:18.000 Is that real, or were you fucking with people? 1.00

01:48:22.000 No, it's true. 0.99

01:48:22.000 Really? 0.99

01:48:23.000 Yeah, it's true.

01:48:24.000 Because when you told me that you enjoy Kaufman-like moments, I was like, okay.

01:48:28.000 No, no.

01:48:28.000 It's true.

01:48:29.000 I would tell you off-grid, but I won't say it publicly.

01:48:32.000 Really?

01:48:32.000 The only way I'd say it publicly is if I write it.

01:48:34.000 I've been writing this book for years, and it's in the book.

01:48:37.000 Really?

01:48:38.000 So I'd tell you off-grid, but I can't...

01:48:40.000 Look, I know Alex Jones sat in the seat, you know?

01:48:46.000 Right?

01:48:47.000 I know you've been on InfoWars.

01:48:49.000 Have you been on InfoWars, too?

01:48:51.000 Oh, yeah, I think three or four times, yeah.

01:48:55.000 What have you been on Infowars for?

01:48:57.000 Mostly talking about free speech.

01:48:58.000 I think that's one thing that is critical in alternative media.

01:49:06.000 That's a front line issue for me.

01:49:09.000 Yeah.

01:49:09.000 This demonetizing of people's videos and trying to censor messages.

01:49:14.000 And even how the Twitter exec just recently admitted in front of Congress how they were suppressing negative Hillary hashtags and stuff.

01:49:22.000 Yes.

01:49:22.000 I mean, that's crazy to me.

01:49:24.000 Yes.

01:49:24.000 I think so, too.

01:49:26.000 Like, you've got somebody openly saying, yeah, we were...

01:49:28.000 You know, if we're going to sit here and go on and on about Russian collusion, I mean, is that not an in-kind donation?

01:49:35.000 Yeah.

01:49:35.000 Well, you're manipulating people's ability to freely exchange ideas.

01:49:38.000 So as an artist who's been in the public sphere almost 30 years and I've seen people manipulate my image and turn me into a meme and all this stuff, I'm very sensitive to if somebody wants to deny me the right to either reply or get my message out.

01:49:54.000 Right.

01:49:54.000 As long as we have that ability, I trust our democracy.

01:49:58.000 We need people like you and me and anybody else.

01:50:02.000 Like, great.

01:50:02.000 I think our democracy is better for it.

01:50:04.000 And that includes people who say things that I don't approve of or like.

01:50:08.000 I'd rather have them say it than not say it.

01:50:10.000 I agree as well, and I think it's very important that if people do say those things that you don't approve of or like, that other people express why they don't approve of those things or like them.

01:50:20.000 And the only way that happens is if you hear the initial thought.

01:50:23.000 You have to hear the one thing that you don't like in order for someone to say something that resonates.

01:50:27.000 You go, yes, that's why we disagree with that initial thought.

01:50:30.000 Okay, so I'm using it for example.

01:50:31.000 If we generally agree that an idea is so abhorrent or so racist or so bigoted, then what are we afraid of because...

01:50:41.000 The argument should be that the collective agrees that that is an inappropriate thing to do and express, and then socially we can sort of correct course, and it gives the other person on the other side the opportunity to course correct, too.

01:50:55.000 Yes.

01:50:56.000 In essence, if you're so sure of an idea being true, what are you afraid of?

01:51:01.000 Right, right, right.

01:51:01.000 Why can that idea not withstand the dirtiest, most scurrilous thing that can be thrown at it?

01:51:07.000 Yeah, it's one of the more uncomfortable things about people on the left today is this newly embraced idea that you should be able to suppress ideas you don't agree with.

01:51:17.000 That's terrifying for me.

01:51:18.000 It is terrifying.

01:51:18.000 That's terrifying.

01:51:19.000 I agree.

01:51:20.000 I mean...

01:51:20.000 Let's wrap this up so I can hear your shapeshifter story.

01:51:23.000 I want to hear that, man.

01:51:24.000 It's...

01:51:25.000 Let's put it this way.

01:51:26.000 It's pretty wild.

01:51:27.000 I believe you.

01:51:28.000 Thank you.

01:51:28.000 I just wish you could tell other people.

01:51:30.000 I will.

01:51:31.000 I will someday.

01:51:32.000 You'll put it in a book?

01:51:33.000 Yeah.

01:51:33.000 So please tell people how they can see you, the name of your new album, where they can get it.

01:51:40.000 I have an album out, Solo Acoustic, OG Lala, produced by Rick Rubin.

01:51:44.000 It just came out about a month ago.

01:51:46.000 I'm just finishing up my tour dates in LA, so that's pretty much done.

01:51:50.000 I'm going to go record another acoustic album, and then hopefully next year there'll be a Pumpkins tour.

01:51:54.000 Awesome.

01:51:55.000 That would be beautiful.

01:51:56.000 Our fingers are crossed.

01:51:57.000 Well, thank you, Billy.

01:51:58.000 I really appreciate you coming on, man.

01:51:59.000 Thank you.

01:52:00.000 My pleasure.

01:52:01.000 All right, folks.

01:52:02.000 That's it.

01:52:02.000 See you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - November 10, 2017

Joe Rogan Experience #1038 - Billy Corgan

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