The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1050 - Dr. Shawn Baker

00:00:07.000 And we're live.

00:00:07.000 Alright, Sean.

00:00:08.000 Welcome aboard, man.

00:00:09.000 Thank you.

00:00:09.000 Thanks for doing this.

00:00:10.000 Appreciate it.

00:00:11.000 Thanks for having me, Joe.

00:00:12.000 You're one of those guys that came up so many times on Twitter, I had to reach out to you.

00:00:18.000 So many people were like, have you checked out what this guy's doing?

00:00:20.000 He's eating nothing but meat.

00:00:22.000 And he's a doctor.

00:00:23.000 He's super healthy.

00:00:24.000 I was like, okay, let me check out what this guy's doing.

00:00:26.000 And I saw you and I was like, he's serious about this.

00:00:30.000 And I was like, okay, this isn't a gimmick.

00:00:32.000 You're actually an educated guy, and you're pursuing this carnivore diet.

00:00:38.000 Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, if you would have asked me...

00:00:40.000 Pull this thing up close to you if you could.

00:00:42.000 There you go. 0.99

00:00:42.000 If you would have asked me two years ago, I would have said, that's fucking crazy. 0.99

00:00:47.000 I mean, that's what I would have said. 0.99

00:00:49.000 You know, if you would have asked me even five years ago, I'd say, yeah, diet doesn't really matter that much, just train your ass off.

00:00:54.000 Because I had been an athlete just training my whole life. 0.90

00:00:57.000 And, you know, I didn't really until I got in my mid-40s and all of a sudden I was like, crap, training ain't working.

00:01:02.000 I'm getting fat, I'm getting, you know, high blood pressure, you know, probably pre-diabetic.

00:01:07.000 And then, you know, then I went down this...

00:01:08.000 You know, this dietary journey where I went from, you know, doing the low-fat, low-calorie fish and vegetables, almost vegetarian, training three times a day just about, trying to get lean.

00:01:21.000 And then I went down to, you know, then I was like, man, this sucks.

00:01:24.000 I'm miserable. 0.85

00:01:25.000 I can't maintain this, you know.

00:01:27.000 Then I went on to a paleo diet.

00:01:29.000 I was like, man, bacon looks pretty good.

00:01:31.000 And then I went, and I started reading some more, and then I went on to, you know, low-carb, high-fat, and then I did ketogenic for about two, three years, because I think you do stuff like that, too.

00:01:41.000 And then I just started reading about these people that do this carnivore diet, and then I went and started reading.

00:01:45.000 Where'd you read about it?

00:01:46.000 Well, there's actually a Facebook group.

00:01:48.000 It's called Zeroing In on Health.

00:01:50.000 There's a guy named Charles Washington.

00:01:51.000 He's been doing it about 10 years, and so they've got about 10 There's about 13,000 people.

00:01:55.000 So he's been exclusively on a carnivorous diet for 10 years?

00:01:59.000 10 years.

00:02:00.000 So no vegetables, no carbs, no nothing?

00:02:03.000 Nope.

00:02:03.000 I mean, he basically eats, you know, I think he eats steak and pork ribs and stuff like that.

00:02:07.000 And there's another guy that's more impressive.

00:02:09.000 There's a guy named Joe Anderson and his wife, Sean.

00:02:12.000 They've been doing it for 20 years.

00:02:14.000 I could probably show you a picture of that guy.

00:02:16.000 But he, I mean, he's 60 and he looks like he's 30. His wife is in his mid-40s and she looks like she's 25. I mean, they're...

00:02:23.000 I mean, by looking at these people, you're like, they're crazy healthy.

00:02:26.000 You know, what happened was she had Lyme disease real bad and was kind of overweight and really sick.

00:02:31.000 And he started doing like the same stuff I was doing.

00:02:33.000 He's reading about these old school bodybuilders.

00:02:35.000 You remember, I don't know if you remember, Vince Caronda.

00:02:37.000 So he promoted this steak and eggs diet back in the 1950s, 60s.

00:02:41.000 And he was just jacked.

00:02:42.000 I mean, he was like, this is, you know, 1956. It was kind of before most of the steroid stuff was hitting.

00:02:48.000 You know, I mean, there were still some steroids back in the 1940s.

00:02:51.000 You know, the Nazis played with that, with the troops. 0.78

00:02:53.000 But, you know, it didn't really get into the bodybuilding culture until probably the 60s, you know, and then the 70s.

00:02:58.000 You know, knots everywhere, right?

00:02:59.000 But he was doing this stuff.

00:03:01.000 And if you look up Vince Garanda and look at his physique from the 1940s, 1950s, he's friggin' pretty amazing.

00:03:07.000 And he's just eating meat.

00:03:09.000 His diet was basically...

00:03:11.000 I think it was five days of just eating meat and eggs.

00:03:15.000 I was taking eggs.

00:03:15.000 And then every one day, like every fifth or sixth day, you could eat, you know, whatever.

00:03:20.000 So that's what he did.

00:03:22.000 So that was his diet.

00:03:22.000 So that's what he looked like back in 19...

00:03:25.000 That's probably in the 50s.

00:03:27.000 Wow.

00:03:27.000 So that's pretty decent for back then.

00:03:29.000 Pretty jacked.

00:03:29.000 Well, I mean, for a non-steroid guy.

00:03:32.000 Yeah, and also taking into consideration how little they really knew about training back then, right?

00:03:37.000 Yeah, they didn't know.

00:03:38.000 I mean, if you go back into history, we can talk about that, but then there's a guy named Larry Scott who was like the first Mr. Olympian.

00:03:44.000 He was another guy that was eating just...

00:03:46.000 Tons of meat, you know, four or five pounds of meat a day, and he won Mr. Olympia.

00:03:50.000 Again, you know, there's some of their drug use, you know, and some of this stuff.

00:03:53.000 But I was just reading about this stuff, and I was just like, well, you know, I'm an athlete.

00:03:57.000 I like trying this stuff.

00:03:59.000 And so I said, well, I'm just going to try it for a month.

00:04:02.000 And so I did it for a month, and I was like, man, I feel pretty good, right?

00:04:05.000 So I was like, well, I'm going to...

00:04:06.000 So I was like, I did a month, and I'm like, well, I'm going to go back to my ketogenic diet.

00:04:10.000 And so I started...

00:04:11.000 Remember that day, the day I did, I was like, I'm going to eat some apples, a little almond butter, you know, I had some berries and cream, you know, stuff you'd normally eat as a treat, and I just didn't feel as good, you know, like my back started hurting a little bit, and I was like, well, maybe that's where someone, so then I went and said, well, I'm just going to go back to eating meat again.

00:04:26.000 Wait, your back started hurting from eating apples?

00:04:29.000 Well, I mean, it was just like, you know, this is one of the things that I've seen, and we can talk about this, you know, in detail, but I've seen a lot of people, what they'll say is, you know, and this is what I saw, you know, when I was working as a surgeon, When I put people on a ketogenic diet, their joint pain was starting to go away.

00:04:44.000 This is pretty common.

00:04:45.000 A lot of people believe that joint pain is connected to the consumption of simple carbohydrates.

00:04:51.000 Defined carbohydrates.

00:04:53.000 I don't know what it is for sure, but it's something we eat most like, in a lot of cases.

00:04:56.000 Not always, but I think there's something out there we're eating.

00:04:59.000 I'm pretty convinced it's not meat.

00:05:01.000 That's what I can tell you for sure, from what I know.

00:05:04.000 You know, whether it's, you know, sugar, whether it's, you know, processed gluten or wheat or stuff like that, whether it's vegetable oil, whether it's, you know, or even some vegetables potentially.

00:05:16.000 So this is what I'm seeing.

00:05:17.000 This is what I saw.

00:05:19.000 You know, I studied these large Facebook groups like an anthropologist.

00:05:22.000 You know, like they used to study these people, you know, 100 years ago.

00:05:25.000 They'd go out, you know, Weston Price would go out and see all these people and study their teeth and stuff.

00:05:29.000 The problem with that is, you know, you don't speak their language.

00:05:32.000 You know, it's pretty remote.

00:05:32.000 You can't, you got to translate.

00:05:34.000 And so some of those observations, you know, while they're valid, they're hard to do now, you know.

00:05:38.000 But so when you go in these groups and you just, all you can do is just like reading this like a scientist going, okay, this guy went on this diet and his joint went away.

00:05:47.000 This guy went on this diet and his thyroid disease went away.

00:05:49.000 This guy went on this diet and his skin got, you know, psoriasis went away.

00:05:53.000 I kept seeing this over and over and over and over again.

00:05:55.000 I mean, thousands of them.

00:05:56.000 But the big thing for most people is removing refined carbohydrates, removing sugar, and a lot of people, dairy.

00:06:04.000 Yeah, I would say that that's a good strategy for most people.

00:06:07.000 You know, here's the deal.

00:06:08.000 I don't care what people eat.

00:06:10.000 You eat whatever makes you healthy.

00:06:11.000 You know, I think this is a thing.

00:06:12.000 We have these national guidelines that tell people what to eat, but they don't work for most people, you know, obviously.

00:06:17.000 I mean, look at our country.

00:06:18.000 I mean, it's just sad to see all these people that are...

00:06:21.000 You know really really getting sick and so I think you know there's a guy named Vinnie Tortorich who has this no sugar no grain I think that will that will successfully help a huge percentage of people you know but I think you have to be objective about it you have to do it long enough for it to have an effect and you know I think you have to You know be really be really clinical about it and so one of the big problems I see as a physician and this is a big problem because people will go on low carb diets or ketogenic diets and they'll say I feel the best I've ever felt in my life.

00:06:51.000 I mean, my mood is better.

00:06:53.000 My mental cognition is better.

00:06:55.000 My joints feel better.

00:06:57.000 My guts don't hurt.

00:06:58.000 My skin is better.

00:06:58.000 My sex drive is better.

00:07:00.000 Everything you would say is, that means you're getting healthy.

00:07:03.000 And they'll go to their doctor, and they'll get some blood drawn, and their cholesterol will be high.

00:07:07.000 And their doctor will say, well, you're going to kill yourself.

00:07:09.000 You're going to have a heart attack, right?

00:07:11.000 So people get scared away from that, and they go back to eating their other stuff, and then they feel crappy again.

00:07:14.000 But they're like, well, at least my cholesterol is not bad.

00:07:16.000 So one of the big problems and I've kind of sort of basically preaching this stuff is I think and this is a problem with health care in general is we have so gotten away from just defining what's healthy you know if somebody comes into your office and you say you know you talk to him for two three minutes because health care is just you got ten minutes to see a patient make a decision so what you're gonna do is like how you doing order a bunch of labs you look at the results of the labs and say Okay,

00:07:42.000 this lab's low, this lab's high, this lab's normal.

00:07:44.000 Go on this drug, or do this or that.

00:07:48.000 And the patient may be saying, but I feel great. 1.00

00:07:50.000 Or maybe converse, they may say, I feel like crap. 0.96

00:07:53.000 Well, your labs look fine, so go exercise a little bit. 0.97

00:07:55.000 Well, let me bring you back to the beginning.

00:07:57.000 So you're a physician, right?

00:07:59.000 So you understand a lot about the human body.

00:08:02.000 Were you worried when you decided to go on this carnivore-only diet?

00:08:06.000 Were you worried that you were going to be deficient in some sort of nutrients and vitamins and fiber and all these different things?

00:08:12.000 And were you cautious?

00:08:17.000 I'm still skeptical.

00:08:18.000 I mean, I mean, that's just the way you should be.

00:08:19.000 But I mean, I was aware of what's not in meat.

00:08:23.000 You know, if you look at the RDA, you know, if you look at the RDA and it says meat is low in vitamin C, it's low in manganese, it's low in, you know, potassium, it's low in, you know, vitamin A, vitamin E. There's a whole bunch of things that's low in, you know, on paper, right?

00:08:37.000 So I was like, well, I can't rectify why these people are doing so well.

00:08:42.000 You know, just eating meat.

00:08:43.000 And we know historically that there are populations out there.

00:08:45.000 The Inuit, the Maasai, the Samy, and all these people. 0.99

00:08:50.000 Inuit's probably the best example, right? 1.00

00:08:51.000 Because they had extremely low incidence of cancer and no vegetables.

00:08:55.000 There's nothing up there.

00:08:56.000 Yeah, I mean, you know, if you go to northern Alaska in the wintertime, good luck trying to find a fruit or vegetable.

00:09:03.000 I mean, you're not.

00:09:04.000 But what people would say, they would justify, say, yeah, but they ate a lot of their organs, and I got some vitamin C from their liver, and, you know, some of the whale skin had some...

00:09:13.000 And so they would just try to justify that and try to make, this is how it worked.

00:09:16.000 And then the same thing with Maasai.

00:09:18.000 They would say, well, sometimes they would eat some berries once in a while.

00:09:20.000 So they would always try to justify it.

00:09:22.000 I'm like, you know, those things aren't available year-round.

00:09:24.000 So, you know, you can't get berries, you know, especially in Alaska or wherever the Inuit are. 1.00

00:09:29.000 You know, you can't get that...

00:09:32.000 12 months out of the year.

00:09:33.000 So that's not what's having a significant impact on their diet?

00:09:36.000 I don't think so.

00:09:37.000 It's coming from the meat itself.

00:09:39.000 Well, this is what I, after doing a lot of research on this stuff, so we've known, so it's interesting.

00:09:45.000 So when we look at the development of the RDAs, you know, the recommended daily allowances, those were developed back in the 1940s.

00:09:52.000 And they were developed basically for soldiers to figure out what the heck you're supposed to feed people so they can survive.

00:09:56.000 And so they did research on this.

00:09:58.000 And what they did was they take populations of people that are consuming a normal diet.

00:10:02.000 Like, you know, back in the 1940s, you know, people would eat a mixture of everything that was fairly high in carbohydrate, not as high as it is now, by the way.

00:10:09.000 But it was a mixed diet, and so what they see is, you know, if you eat that diet and you're deficient in this nutrient, if you don't get X amount of this nutrient, you're going to develop some sort of nutrient deficiency syndrome.

00:10:20.000 So they said, okay, well, we know that This level of nutrient deficiency causes disease, so therefore we're going to recommend this, you know, everybody gets this amount, right?

00:10:29.000 So what they knew, what they found out back, even in 1897, there was a study where they were looking at animals, and they looked at something called thiamine.

00:10:36.000 You know, they didn't even know it was thiamine back then, but they saw that certain animals, if they were on a lower-carb diet, they didn't get this disease, where animals on a high carbohydrate did get this disease, and that disease was called beriberi, and so that's a thiamine deficiency which causes neurologic problems or Congestive heart failure type problems.

00:10:54.000 And so they were noticing that these animals are on a low carb diet, even though their thiamine levels were really, really low, they weren't getting diseases.

00:11:01.000 So if you look at that and you look at all these other nutrients, you know, things like manganese, you know, manganese is We're highly required for carbohydrate metabolism.

00:11:12.000 And so if you're on a diet where you're not taking any carbohydrate, all of a sudden you've got to say, maybe I don't eat as much manganese, despite what the RDA says.

00:11:19.000 And you can look at that for nutrient after nutrient.

00:11:22.000 Glucose and vitamin C is a huge one, right?

00:11:25.000 So vitamin C, if you don't take vitamin C and you get...

00:11:29.000 Really, really, you get scurvy.

00:11:31.000 You get sick, you die. 0.92

00:11:32.000 I mean, they'll kill you.

00:11:33.000 I mean, you end up with bleeding in your joints, your teeth fall out, your gums rot, your skin opens up with sores, horrible disease.

00:11:39.000 And these people are not getting scurvy.

00:11:41.000 And so what's happening is we know that a molecule of glucose and a molecule of vitamin C are almost identical.

00:11:47.000 And so they compete for the same transporters.

00:11:49.000 And so if you don't have a lot of glucose floating around, you need way, way less vitamin C. Really?

00:11:54.000 Yeah.

00:11:55.000 And this has been known for quite a while as well.

00:11:57.000 That's fascinating because obviously Orange juice, tons of glucose, tons of vitamin C. Yeah, right.

00:12:04.000 They basically cancel each other out.

00:12:06.000 I think what's happening, and this is one of the things I think potentially, and this needs to be investigated, but I think that a lot of people that we have all these vitamin deficiencies, vitamin D deficiency, magnesium deficiency, a lot of that may be caused by just ingesting too much carbohydrate and creating a higher-than-normal need.

00:12:24.000 So basically, we're creating higher needs for vitamins.

00:12:27.000 Now, do you do blood work on yourself?

00:12:29.000 I haven't, you know, I haven't yet.

00:12:31.000 I'm going to probably do it once I get, you know, I'm a year at this.

00:12:34.000 You haven't done any?

00:12:35.000 No, I don't, you know, here's the deal, Joe.

00:12:37.000 I mean, I've got a lot of people who do it all the time.

00:12:38.000 I'm not that interested in it because I just don't...

00:12:41.000 I don't think it makes that big of a difference for me.

00:12:43.000 I'll do it just to satisfy other people's curiosity.

00:12:46.000 I don't really have that much curiosity personally.

00:12:49.000 About your blood work?

00:12:51.000 Not really.

00:12:52.000 I would think a radical change in your diet where you're just consuming only meat.

00:12:55.000 I would want to see what kind of results I'm getting.

00:12:57.000 Well, I mean, it depends.

00:12:59.000 You know, if you can tell me what blood test tells me I'm healthy, and I don't think you can't.

00:13:02.000 Well, I think if you get a really good doctor who understands the difference between HDL cholesterol and LDL cholesterol and free testosterone available and all the different nutrients that are essential, and if you get someone who really understands that and can have a comprehensive Examination of your blood work.

00:13:19.000 I think you can benefit from it greatly, but also the knowledge that you can tell them, like, how do you feel?

00:13:27.000 I feel great.

00:13:28.000 You know, and they can get a look at this.

00:13:29.000 What are you eating?

00:13:30.000 And what kind of meat are you eating?

00:13:31.000 Where are you getting in it?

00:13:32.000 Yeah, so that's an interesting point because, you know, we've started this, you know, and again, I started doing this and got public on it on Twitter, and a lot of people were saying, well, yeah, you're...

00:13:41.000 You're doing well.

00:13:42.000 I'm breaking some world records and stuff like that.

00:13:45.000 Explain that.

00:13:45.000 What world records are you breaking?

00:13:48.000 I've been an athlete my whole life.

00:13:51.000 You look like an athlete.

00:13:54.000 I'm about 240 right now.

00:13:56.000 When I was younger, I played rugby in New Zealand.

00:13:59.000 I was playing with some of the All Blacks at a high level.

00:14:02.000 This was before it was professional.

00:14:03.000 That's the name of the team.

00:14:04.000 By the way, so don't get weird.

00:14:06.000 No, it's not racist.

00:14:06.000 People are like, what, he's playing with blacks?

00:14:08.000 Is that what he's saying? 0.96

00:14:08.000 No, New Zealand all blacks. 0.96

00:14:09.000 Do you want to know the history on that?

00:14:11.000 That's kind of an interesting sort of thing.

00:14:13.000 So back in the 1900s in New Zealand, guys were so fast.

00:14:17.000 And there's forwards and backs.

00:14:18.000 Forwards are like the linemen and the backs of the fast guys.

00:14:20.000 And they were all so super fit.

00:14:23.000 And so they said they looked like they were all backs, but somebody made a typo.

00:14:28.000 So they called them All Blacks.

00:14:30.000 So that's where my name comes from.

00:14:31.000 But they're like the best rugby players in the world.

00:14:33.000 Some people say South Africa's pretty good, but New Zealand's pretty much the best.

00:14:36.000 So I played down there with those guys, and then I went into weight, you know, powerlifting.

00:14:40.000 And I had an American record in the deadlift.

00:14:42.000 I was deadlifting close to 800 pounds as a drug-free athlete back in my 30s.

00:14:47.000 And then I went on to...

00:14:49.000 I did some strongman stuff for a few years.

00:14:51.000 And then I went on to throwing, you know, like track and field, like discus and shot put, and then the Highland Games where you...

00:14:56.000 You know, you run around with a big caber and wear a kilt, and I won the World Championships in that.

00:15:00.000 And then, you know, when I got in my mid-40s, I was about close to 300 pounds back then.

00:15:04.000 I was about 280, 285. And I was like, man, I just can't keep doing this.

00:15:09.000 So that's when I started dieting and stuff.

00:15:11.000 And so I got down to pretty lean, about 240-ish, where I'm at now.

00:15:15.000 And I started doing this indoor rowing stuff, which is not a concept, too.

00:15:18.000 So you remember, you know, Conor McGregor on his...

00:15:21.000 You remember that machine he was rowing on?

00:15:23.000 I'm sure a lot of the MMA guys know that.

00:15:25.000 So I got on there and I started training for that.

00:15:28.000 And so what I did was...

00:15:29.000 There's a 500-meter row, which is, you know, and this is kind of interesting because it's highly, highly glycolytic.

00:15:34.000 I mean, it's not like running a marathon like Zack Bitter.

00:15:38.000 Explain glycolytic.

00:15:39.000 So glycolytic means you're burning glucose.

00:15:41.000 You're using muscle glycogen.

00:15:43.000 You know, I know you had, who was the fellow on a couple weeks ago?

00:15:45.000 Chris Kresher?

00:15:46.000 No, it was the other guy.

00:15:47.000 It was Andy Galpin.

00:15:48.000 Okay, yeah.

00:15:48.000 And he was saying, no, you've got to have glycogen.

00:15:50.000 And I'm like, well, to do highly glycolytic activity.

00:15:53.000 And so this is a highly, highly glycolytic activity.

00:15:55.000 It takes about a minute.

00:15:56.000 A minute to a minute thirty and that's that's intense you know like you're going all out right and so I was able to break the 50 plus world record in that and it was when I went on when it was When I got to 50 it was one minute 18.3 seconds and so I put it down all the way down to 114 so I took four seconds off the world record without a single gram of carbohydrate totally This is one of the issues with the ketogenic diet.

00:16:23.000 If you eat too much protein, your body converts that protein back to glucose.

00:16:27.000 That's one of the things that they were saying, that you're supposed to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% fats, 30% proteins.

00:16:35.000 Right.

00:16:36.000 So this is another sort of thing that I think a lot of people sort of have questions about.

00:16:41.000 One of the things we know about gluconeogenesis, so that's converting protein or fat into glucose, is it's demand-driven.

00:16:48.000 So your body doesn't just make it.

00:16:50.000 So if you get a lot of protein, it doesn't just say, I'm just going to make a bunch of blood sugar for the heck of it, because your body doesn't need it.

00:16:55.000 So one of the things that...

00:16:58.000 Glucose is extremely important to the body.

00:17:00.000 We need it.

00:17:02.000 So the nice thing about it is if you regulate it really, really well, and the best way to regulate it really, really well is just to make your own.

00:17:09.000 So rather than getting it from kombucha or eating a bunch of carbs, where it's going to be all over the place.

00:17:17.000 So this is what happens.

00:17:18.000 So ketosis, again, I probably spend...

00:17:23.000 You know, significant periods of time in ketosis, but I'm not always in ketosis and that's not the point of this, you know, but I think ketosis is probably a good thing, you know, periodically, but I don't, you know, like I said, I don't think You know, we can talk about evolutionary stuff.

00:17:36.000 Excuse me for interrupting you, but why would it vary if your diet's not varying?

00:17:40.000 Why would you be in ketosis or out of ketosis if you're not varying your diet, if you're just eating only meat?

00:17:45.000 Right.

00:17:45.000 So, you know, because it depends on how long I go between meals.

00:17:49.000 Oh, okay.

00:17:49.000 Do you intermittent fast?

00:17:52.000 So, I intermittent feast.

00:17:54.000 So, this is what I think is, you know, I think this is probably more...

00:17:58.000 I will often go...

00:17:59.000 Well, here's funny.

00:18:00.000 So I was in Denver a couple nights ago.

00:18:02.000 I went to the big Brazilian, you know, get down, all-you-can-eat-meat place, and I just... 1.00

00:18:06.000 Chuhascaria.

00:18:07.000 Yeah, I just picked it up.

00:18:09.000 So I went there, and I just...

00:18:10.000 I had them come back 50 times.

00:18:13.000 Wow.

00:18:14.000 I clicked everyone. 0.71

00:18:15.000 I said I had 50 friggin' orders of food. 0.56

00:18:17.000 It was about six pounds of meat. 0.93

00:18:18.000 I just put it away in one setting.

00:18:20.000 You ate six pounds of meat?

00:18:22.000 That's insane, dude.

00:18:24.000 Yeah.

00:18:24.000 So I put away about six pounds and then I'm not hungry for like 30 some hours.

00:18:29.000 So I'm basically, it's not that I'm intentionally fasting, it's just I feasted so much that I just don't feel like eating.

00:18:35.000 So I think, here's what I think.

00:18:37.000 You know, why do you think we have an appetite?

00:18:39.000 I mean, what's the point of an appetite?

00:18:41.000 Tell you when to eat?

00:18:42.000 Right, right.

00:18:42.000 That's exactly right.

00:18:43.000 But if you're eating the crappy wrong food, you know, your appetite's all screwed up.

00:18:47.000 So one of the problems we have is people eating the wrong food. 0.99

00:18:50.000 You know, we have all this processed garbage that's full of calories, sugar and crap. 0.98

00:18:55.000 But it doesn't have any nutrients in there. 0.99

00:18:56.000 So every time you're hungry, your body's saying, give me more nutrition.

00:18:59.000 Well, if all you do is pour in garbage, your body, you're always going to be saying, I'm hungry, I'm hungry.

00:19:03.000 Plus the insulin spikes.

00:19:04.000 Yeah, all that stuff.

00:19:05.000 I mean, so you want, you know, insulin is not, you know, we need some insulin.

00:19:08.000 We need insulin for muscle growth.

00:19:10.000 It's a useful thing.

00:19:11.000 The goal of insulin is not zero.

00:19:13.000 You know, that's what people need to understand.

00:19:14.000 It's not, we don't want our glucose to be zero.

00:19:16.000 We don't want our insulin to be zero.

00:19:18.000 But we don't want it always, always, always spiking.

00:19:20.000 And so, you know, when you eat a big meal of something you're supposed to be eating, and I'll argue that I think meat's a pretty damn good meal.

00:19:26.000 And we can talk about how it's complete or not.

00:19:29.000 So when you do that, you know, you're just like, the next time you're hungry, it's time to eat.

00:19:34.000 Your body says, I need energy, so I can get it from fat when you eat meat.

00:19:38.000 But I also need structure.

00:19:40.000 And so by, you know, eating meat, you know, you're basically giving your body what it's asking for.

00:19:45.000 And I think that works pretty well.

00:19:47.000 Whose phone is that?

00:19:49.000 That's very interesting because most people would say you should eat a balanced diet, right?

00:19:55.000 Most people would say that in order to be healthy you should consume a certain amount of fruits, a certain amount of vegetables, You should have some whole grains.

00:20:05.000 You should eat some meat.

00:20:07.000 And if you come along and tell people, like, this is what I'm doing.

00:20:10.000 I'm eating six pounds of meat and I only eat for 30 hours. 1.00

00:20:13.000 Like, this guy's out of his fucking mind. 1.00

00:20:14.000 Yeah, I mean, I agree. 1.00

00:20:15.000 I mean, it sounds crazy. 0.99

00:20:16.000 You know, in 2017, that's crazy as crap. 0.67

00:20:19.000 I mean, I can point to thousands and thousands of people and do it in excellent health, which is interesting. 0.99

00:20:23.000 But, I mean, you know, balanced diet is just a friggin' cop-out. 0.95

00:20:27.000 I mean, it's like, I don't know what the fuck to tell you, so I'm going to tell you the balanced diet. 0.98

00:20:30.000 But I wish you'd done some blood work so you should get us some data. 0.97

00:20:34.000 I mean, it seems like with someone who's espousing this diet, like, it'd be nice if you had some hard data.

00:20:38.000 Yeah, so, I mean, you know, because I didn't know I was going to do this.

00:20:41.000 I just started doing it.

00:20:41.000 I'm like, well, you know, I've already done it, so I'll probably get some, you know.

00:20:45.000 So, but do you just decide, like, hey, I'm going to try this for a month and then just keep going?

00:20:48.000 I said, I'm going to try it for a month.

00:20:50.000 And I just felt so good.

00:20:52.000 I was like, well...

00:20:52.000 And you've been on it for...

00:20:54.000 So I started last December.

00:20:55.000 So a year.

00:20:56.000 Wow.

00:20:57.000 So a whole year of just eating meat.

00:21:00.000 You've got to do some blood work, man.

00:21:02.000 Well, I probably will.

00:21:03.000 But the point I'm making is, what is it going to tell me?

00:21:06.000 Here's the thing we don't know.

00:21:08.000 One of the things is, you know, I'll tell you what a problem, because I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people who've already done blood work, so I know what it's going to show, basically.

00:21:14.000 You know, so I've gotten, we've got this study going, we've got all these people submitting blood work.

00:21:18.000 But the, you know, probably my HDL will go up, my triglycerides will go down, my blood sugar will stabilize to a low level, my inflammatory markers will be normal.

00:21:30.000 That's because I've seen lots and lots of other people's blood work already, so I know what it's going to show.

00:21:33.000 My cholesterol may be up or down, and that's something that we get a lot of people worried about.

00:21:40.000 Cholesterol, in my view, is a pretty worthless marker by itself.

00:21:45.000 You have to take it into context.

00:21:48.000 You know, there's a couple people that are really, really intelligent about cholesterol that are really testing this sort of stuff.

00:21:53.000 One guy's name is Dave Feldman.

00:21:55.000 On Twitter, his name is Dave Keto.

00:21:57.000 There's another guy named Ivor Cummins, who's an Australian.

00:22:00.000 They're both engineers.

00:22:01.000 And so this is what happened to this guy, Dave.

00:22:03.000 He goes on a ketogenic diet and his cholesterol goes sky friggin' high.

00:22:06.000 It's like 400, you know, way, way up there.

00:22:08.000 And his doctor's freaking out and he's freaking out.

00:22:11.000 So he's like, I don't understand this.

00:22:13.000 I mean, I feel great.

00:22:14.000 Everything about me is just the best health I've ever felt in my life.

00:22:17.000 So what he does is he starts drawing his blood every single day.

00:22:21.000 He gets a blood test.

00:22:22.000 And what he finds out is that his blood cholesterol is all over the place.

00:22:27.000 One day it's 300, the next day it's 200. One day it's 350, the next day it's...

00:22:31.000 So when we go to the doctor every six months or a year and they get a blood cholesterol, you assume, well, that's my cholesterol, and it's always that way.

00:22:38.000 Well, he found out that it's so variable.

00:22:40.000 They've actually known about this since the 1950s, but no one has been talking about it.

00:22:44.000 So what he figured out, and he's a systems engineer, and these engineers are some smart guys.

00:22:48.000 I mean, that's one thing I kind of talk about.

00:22:50.000 It's just because somebody's an MD or PhD doesn't mean they know everything.

00:22:54.000 There's a lot of people that are plumbers and whatever.

00:22:57.000 They don't have any formal training that can figure, they're smart people, and they can figure this stuff out.

00:23:01.000 So he's an engineer, a real smart guy.

00:23:03.000 And so what he does is he figures out that cholesterol Is basically, all it is, is it's traveling around in your blood based on energy flux.

00:23:12.000 So if you've eaten a lot, so if you've eaten a whole bunch of food and you're full, your liver is saying, I don't need to put out a bunch of fat because we burn fat as fuel, even if we're not in a ketogenic diet.

00:23:23.000 So what it does is it transports fat.

00:23:25.000 So when you're hungry and you haven't eaten it for a while, like you fasted for a blood test, Your liver says, we need fat in the system because we're low on energy.

00:23:33.000 And so it shoots out all this fat.

00:23:35.000 And what happens is cholesterol is just cruising around for a ride.

00:23:39.000 So it's just sitting there, you know, as a passenger.

00:23:44.000 So depending on how much you've eaten, when you've eaten, that'll change your cholesterol.

00:23:47.000 And so it's not a very good marker.

00:23:48.000 I mean, you can find studies that show for all-cause mortality, like if you're like you and me, because you're the same age as I am, I think you're right.

00:23:56.000 50?

00:23:56.000 Yeah, we're both 50. So if we look at, you know, and again, associational studies are not that great, but if you look at that and you say all-cause mortality, am I going to die or not?

00:24:05.000 If your cholesterol is high, you're less likely to die.

00:24:08.000 If your cholesterol is high, you're less likely to get Parkinson's disease.

00:24:11.000 If your cholesterol is high, you're less likely to get a bunch of cancers.

00:24:15.000 You know, so it's like...

00:24:16.000 So you're saying that, though, but most people hear this and they go, but, but, but, but, but, if your cholesterol is high, you're going to get a heart attack.

00:24:20.000 Well, here's the deal.

00:24:21.000 You're going to die. 0.99

00:24:21.000 Yeah, here's the deal with heart attacks. 0.99

00:24:23.000 This is interesting because, you know, vegetarians and vegans, I don't mean to pick on vegetarians and vegans because, you know, I know some great ones are great people and I think, you know, there shouldn't be a war between this, but...

00:24:32.000 Vegetarians and vegans, the number one killer of vegetarian and vegan is heart disease.

00:24:36.000 I mean, that's what kills them too.

00:24:37.000 It kills everybody.

00:24:38.000 So it's just like, you know, do you trade, am I going to have cancer or am I going to trade to have heart disease?

00:24:43.000 You know, which one?

00:24:44.000 Pick your poison?

00:24:45.000 Well, most people don't understand that the sugar industry's Hijacking of science in the 1950s, the way they paid off those scientists to literally false advertise the idea that sugar is safe for you, but that saturated fat and cholesterol is what's causing all these issues with people and heart attacks.

00:25:04.000 To this day, people just sort of repeat that.

00:25:06.000 Like, they think it's gospel.

00:25:08.000 Yeah, I mean, it is.

00:25:09.000 It's part of the framework of society now.

00:25:12.000 What was the push that got you to say, I'm just going to eat nothing but meat?

00:25:16.000 Was there anybody that you knew that was doing it really well that you were talking to?

00:25:19.000 Did you get some...

00:25:20.000 Well, like I said, it was just reading about people online.

00:25:24.000 You know, there's a, you know, if there's a, I'll tell you what, if there's a guy named Joe Anderson on Twitter, his handle is JoeCharlene98, 8898 or 9888. So this guy, you know, it's just a guy, he's been doing it for 20 years.

00:25:36.000 I'm just like, this is pretty cool.

00:25:37.000 Like I said, reading back on that stuff.

00:25:39.000 And then just because I've been an athlete, I'm like, and I don't, you know, I've never taken drugs and stuff like that.

00:25:43.000 And I was always like, what can get me to the next level as far as athletic competition?

00:25:47.000 Because I'm just a really competitive guy.

00:25:49.000 I mean, I just, I just like to, you know, push myself and see what works.

00:25:52.000 I know a lot of savage people that eat mostly meat.

00:25:54.000 My friend Cam Haynes eats almost all meat.

00:25:57.000 He occasionally eats like something else.

00:25:59.000 But most of what he eats is meat.

00:26:01.000 My friend Jocko Willink, when he's tired, he goes, I need more steak.

00:26:05.000 That's what he does.

00:26:05.000 He eats meat.

00:26:06.000 It's a friggin' health food. 0.95

00:26:07.000 It totally is. 0.88

00:26:09.000 There's a guy named Bobby Maximus, who's a fitness guy.

00:26:13.000 I guess he was used to be an MMA guy years ago or something like that.

00:26:16.000 But I know he did this steak everyday thing.

00:26:18.000 So if we look back into history, I mean, there's all kinds of accounts of people using meat as an athletic performance enhancer.

00:26:25.000 You know, back in the original Greek Olympics, those guys knew that they ate a lot of meat.

00:26:29.000 They performed better.

00:26:30.000 You know, the beef feeders out of London, you know, these guys were the guards for the kings.

00:26:35.000 You know, they gave them extra meat because they knew they would fight better.

00:26:38.000 The Mongols, they just decimated all through Asia. 1.00

00:26:41.000 They basically just ate their horses and their meat.

00:26:44.000 That's what they did when I traveled with that.

00:26:46.000 You've got all these historical examples of people performing better.

00:26:50.000 The Inuit, they were known to have this incredible work capacity and all they ate was seal meat and And reindeer and stuff like that.

00:26:58.000 So what's a typical diet for you?

00:27:00.000 Give me a normal day.

00:27:01.000 You wake up in the morning, what do you do?

00:27:04.000 So today, I mean, eating-wise, generally I eat one meal or two meals, depending on what my workout training is going to be.

00:27:10.000 This morning, you know, because I knew I was coming up here, I trained real early in the morning.

00:27:13.000 Well, that's fast.

00:27:14.000 I set a new record, by the way, and my personal record just doing that.

00:27:17.000 But I had a couple of New York strips.

00:27:19.000 I had about two pounds.

00:27:21.000 You ate two pounds of meat.

00:27:23.000 Well, that's a snack, man.

00:27:24.000 Is that your phone, man, that keeps you beeping?

00:27:25.000 It could be.

00:27:26.000 It might have your little thing on there.

00:27:27.000 Yeah, I think I'll probably get notifications.

00:27:29.000 People are saying, hey, bro, see you on YouTube, bro. 0.97

00:27:32.000 Let me turn that sucker off. 1.00

00:27:33.000 It's amazing, man. 0.99

00:27:34.000 You look just like you.

00:27:36.000 Yeah.

00:27:37.000 So you had two New York strips today?

00:27:39.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:40.000 Two pounds of meat.

00:27:41.000 You know, it took me a while to build up to this.

00:27:43.000 Before, you know, like a pound of meat would be, you know, that'd be tough.

00:27:45.000 Now I can put down.

00:27:47.000 Four pounds at one time.

00:27:48.000 And people looking at you would go, well, he's super lean.

00:27:52.000 Like, obviously, whatever you're eating, your body's processing it really well.

00:27:56.000 I mean, you don't have what someone would think of as a steak-eater gut.

00:28:00.000 Like, you tell a guy, someone, a guy eats two steaks a day, and they're like, oh, he must have a gut.

00:28:06.000 But that's all the mashed potatoes and macaroni and cheese and bread.

00:28:10.000 Yeah, I mean, it's the stuff you eat with it.

00:28:11.000 I mean, you know, I'm just...

00:28:13.000 You know, I put, like I said, on that Instagram page, I've got, you know, meat exercising, doing stuff, and, you know, pictures.

00:28:19.000 That was something that you talked about outside the studio right before we came in, that the studies that have been done on people consuming meat, and I brought this up as well, that There's a lot of misconceptions about these studies because they're not very clear.

00:28:33.000 When they say that people who eat meat five times a week are more likely to get cancer, what they're not telling you is what these people ate along with the meat.

00:28:43.000 Are they eating cheeseburgers?

00:28:44.000 Are they eating grass-fed beef where it's grass-finished, grass-fed, you know, high in essential fatty acids, Is it healthy for you? 0.99

00:28:52.000 Or are they eating some bullshit cheeseburger with a sugary drink? 0.98

00:28:56.000 Like, what is the rest of their diet? 1.00

00:28:58.000 Are they consuming a lot of refined carbohydrates? 0.76

00:29:01.000 Are they consuming a lot of sugar?

00:29:02.000 Are they drinking alcohol?

00:29:03.000 Are they smoking cigarettes?

00:29:05.000 All you're saying is they're eating meat five days a week.

00:29:09.000 It's not specifying in any way their actual overall diet.

00:29:13.000 Yeah, they don't sort that very well out, so they've got all these epidemiology studies.

00:29:21.000 Statistically, we know they're more likely to smoke, they're more likely to drink, they're more likely not to wear their seatbelt, they're more likely to be in accidents, they're more likely not to go to their doctor, they're more likely just not to care.

00:29:30.000 Why is that?

00:29:32.000 Because if I tell you, as I say, Joe, eating meat's bad for you, and you say, F you, I don't care, I don't care about my health, so you just don't care.

00:29:40.000 So they can't separate that out. 0.99

00:29:44.000 All these studies where they try to separate it out and say, well, we'll kind of even up the smokers, but they never can take that I don't give a, you know, I don't give a fuck thing out of it.

00:29:53.000 And so you've got this stuff and then all the studies are really, really low strength.

00:29:57.000 So if we look at, you know, and we can talk about this, about meat being causing cancer, because there's some concern about that with colon cancer.

00:30:05.000 But if we look at smoking, you know, when they determined that smoking caused cancer, the epidemiology showed a 2,000% increase In the incidence of cancer in a lot of studies.

00:30:15.000 When they compare that to meat in cancer, they found an 18% increase, which is nothing.

00:30:21.000 I mean, it's like it doesn't even matter.

00:30:23.000 It's so low.

00:30:24.000 18% isn't high?

00:30:25.000 Not when you look at relative risk, right?

00:30:27.000 So if your risk of getting colon cancer is one, or say your risk of getting colon cancer is Five in a million, right?

00:30:39.000 And now it's six in a million.

00:30:42.000 I mean, it's like nothing.

00:30:44.000 I mean, it's like it is so minor.

00:30:46.000 But if your risk is going from five in a million to 300 in a million, then you're like, well, that's pretty powerful.

00:30:52.000 So this is a problem.

00:30:53.000 So it depends on the incident.

00:30:55.000 So if it's really low to begin with, and you only raise it by a tiny amount, it's so small.

00:30:59.000 And so what we know There was a guy named Bradford Hill who talked about statistical correlations on when these things actually matter.

00:31:06.000 And not until you get to 200% or 300% does it even matter.

00:31:10.000 You can't draw any conclusion from that.

00:31:12.000 The problem is...

00:31:13.000 200-300% difference out of 1,000.

00:31:15.000 So instead of 2, it would be 6, something along those lines.

00:31:20.000 So instead of being 18% more likely, you're 200% more likely.

00:31:25.000 Those numbers are confusing to people though, the way you say 200%.

00:31:30.000 That's a lot of people.

00:31:31.000 So you would have to double or triple your risk.

00:31:35.000 So 18% is not double or triple.

00:31:37.000 That's only putting it up by a fraction.

00:31:40.000 So when you, when you separate all that stuff out and then, you know, there was a, you know, the World Health Organization two years ago, last year, two years ago, declared that red meat was a class two carcinogen and processed meat was a class one carcinogen.

00:31:54.000 You know, they said it's like plutonium and smoking and, you know, everybody runs, runs all over the place with that.

00:31:59.000 Why'd they do that?

00:32:00.000 So here's why they do that.

00:32:01.000 So first of all, and you can go on their website and they'll tell you what their conclusions were.

00:32:06.000 So this was done by an organization called the International Association for Research on Cancer.

00:32:11.000 They're based out of Lyon, France.

00:32:13.000 And they are, you know, that's what the World Health Organization uses to determine their stuff and so they're written and this is you know besides the point right now the IRC is under under investigation by US Congress for using crappy science and you know promoting political agenda so I don't know if that's true or not part of that's generated by probably be corporations who don't like their findings but so they're under investigation for that but what they say is we have some weak epidemiology which is this 18 percent stuff but we think we have some strong mechanistic reasons

00:32:43.000 for this right So if everybody, you know, there's a doctor named George Ede, E-D-E, who's a psychiatrist out in Maryland who's got this just tremendous, she analyzed the whole thing.

00:32:54.000 She has a website called diagnosisdiet.com.

00:32:57.000 So she did an analysis of all the 800 studies they used, and she found that what they ended up doing is most of them showed that meat didn't cause cancer.

00:33:06.000 There was a small percentage that did, and they looked at all these rat studies, and there was about 20 20-25 rat studies, and they found like three or four of them showed that meat, you know, if we gave this type of cancer, if we gave this rat a certain, you know, amount of meat, and we genetically bred them,

00:33:22.000 and we gave them a medicine that makes them get cancer, that they get a little bit of change in their colon that might turn into cancer.

00:33:29.000 What medicine makes them get cancer?

00:33:31.000 Oh, I don't remember.

00:33:32.000 There's something, there's a special way to make rats get cancer.

00:33:34.000 So they have this model that makes them get cancer really, really easy.

00:33:38.000 So what they did is they felt...

00:33:39.000 But why would they do that if they're trying to find out if something gives something cancer?

00:33:42.000 Well, because they want to make it, they want to be able to, you know, they want to differentiate as quick as possible.

00:33:47.000 Because they've got to use a million rats.

00:33:50.000 I get it.

00:33:50.000 I see what you're saying.

00:33:51.000 This is a real fast way to show up if they get cancer.

00:33:53.000 But the problem with that, and she explains it very well, is that we don't know that they would get cancer.

00:33:57.000 It's not shown.

00:33:58.000 And the other thing, and we talked about this before, is that if you want to look at rat studies, and it's not to say that plants give you cancer, but there are...

00:34:06.000 Pesticides and plants that have been studied in rats that we eat every day, natural foods and vegetables and fruits that also give rats cancer.

00:34:13.000 And so the only difference is we've got, you know, some really...

00:34:16.000 By pesticides, you mean things that natural compounds that plants extract or that plants secrete in order to discourage predation?

00:34:24.000 Exactly.

00:34:25.000 So these natural substances, when they feed them to rats and they isolate them and feed them to rats, it gives the rats cancer?

00:34:30.000 Of 52, they tested 27 of them.

00:34:32.000 And these are just normal foods that we eat on a daily basis?

00:34:35.000 Normal stuff we eat on a daily basis.

00:34:37.000 So it's not to scare people out of eating that stuff.

00:34:39.000 But it's just saying that's how much BS this stuff is based upon.

00:34:42.000 But it just seems to me to be so crazy that they're doing a cancer study and they give the rats something that induces cancer in order to find out what gives them cancer more.

00:34:50.000 So they give them this compound and then on top of the compound then they check their diet.

00:34:55.000 And they also feed them sugar with it.

00:34:58.000 So it's kind of like It's just the way they do it, you know?

00:35:01.000 And so, you know, you can extrapolate, does that really matter to humans or not?

00:35:05.000 It's just so hard to tell.

00:35:06.000 I mean, there's so many things that animals can eat that we can't.

00:35:09.000 It's just, the whole thing is bizarre.

00:35:10.000 Yeah, I mean, we're not rats.

00:35:12.000 You know, that's interesting.

00:35:12.000 You know, it's like the same thing when we talked about, you know, cancer rates in the historical populations.

00:35:17.000 You know, with Maasai, they didn't have much cancer.

00:35:19.000 You know, not until we started feeding them, you know, the 1940s, 30s and stuff like that. 0.69

00:35:23.000 Not until we started feeding them all our crap that they started to get those diseases. 0.58

00:35:30.000 Yeah, it's all very strange, right? 0.97

00:35:32.000 When you think about diet and health, you also have to take into account the geography that your ancestors evolved in and what were they accustomed to eating.

00:35:44.000 There's different adaptations for the Inuit, for example.

00:35:48.000 Adaptations to cold.

00:35:49.000 They probably have requirements for a certain amount of dietary fat.

00:35:53.000 Yeah, I think it's, you know, this is what I think.

00:35:55.000 I think we're all, you know, this is one of the things that people talk about.

00:35:58.000 It's like, you know, everybody's so different.

00:35:59.000 We have all this different genetics.

00:36:01.000 We all need special diets.

00:36:02.000 I tend to say that, you know, in certain circumstances, that makes sense.

00:36:06.000 But I think, you know, evolutionary, you know, we sort of split from primates, you know, we shared a common ancestor with, you know, primates, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas.

00:36:17.000 Somewhere 8 to 10 million years ago.

00:36:19.000 We don't know for sure.

00:36:20.000 You know, it's back and then.

00:36:20.000 And so what happens is, you know, the human, the pre-humans kind of went one way, and then the apes and chimpanzees went up this way and went up into the trees.

00:36:29.000 And if you look at, you know, even the difference between a chimp and an ape, you know, an ape, not an ape, a gorilla, a gorilla crushes all these, you know, these all really fibrous food, lots of fiber and stuff like that.

00:36:42.000 Chimpanzees can't tolerate that as well because their colon got a little smaller.

00:36:47.000 Well, a human's colon's got way, way smaller, right?

00:36:50.000 And so what happened is why you and I can throw a rock really far, you know, and a chimpanzee, you know, a chimpanzee can throw, you know, if you give a chimpanzee a baseball, they can throw it about 20 miles an hour.

00:36:59.000 It's not very strong.

00:37:00.000 You and I can throw a baseball, you know, 60 miles an hour average guy.

00:37:04.000 You know, if you get, you know, Major League Baseball players, you're throwing it 95 plus, right? 0.99

00:37:08.000 The reason we evolved to do that is because we were throwing shit at animals. 0.98

00:37:11.000 We were hunting, right? 0.94

00:37:12.000 That's what drove, I mean, our scapula is rotated.

00:37:16.000 You know, if you look at a chimpanzee scapula, it's, you know, on the side.

00:37:19.000 It allows them to climb trees and do this stuff.

00:37:23.000 Strong climate-based evolutionary pressures, which drove us to saying, you know, there's all this Ice Age stuff going on.

00:37:31.000 The climate's drying out.

00:37:33.000 The fruits and the jungles are going away.

00:37:34.000 Now it's all this grassland.

00:37:36.000 And, you know, there's not much to eat in the grassland, you know, except for some animals.

00:37:39.000 You know, people eat some bugs and stuff like that for a while.

00:37:42.000 And that's what, you know, chimpanzees do.

00:37:44.000 Even chimpanzees, you know, 3% of their diet, you know, there's a lot of people say we're frugivores and all we should eat is fruit.

00:37:49.000 But even chimpanzees eat about 3% of their diet comes from killing other animals.

00:37:52.000 I mean, there's this red colobus monkey somewhere in Uganda or somewhere in Africa.

00:37:57.000 The chimpanzees are hunting this thing to extinction.

00:38:00.000 I mean, they're good little hunters.

00:38:02.000 Yeah, there's a David Attenborough documentary on it.

00:38:05.000 It's terrifying.

00:38:06.000 You see how organized they are to kill monkeys?

00:38:08.000 They have chimps at one end of this tree line, and they're coming this way, and they have chimps on the side, and they chase them in, and they corner them, they ambush them, they get them in the center.

00:38:18.000 And they just swarm them.

00:38:19.000 That's amazing.

00:38:20.000 I mean, you know, think about it.

00:38:21.000 Their brain is not even half as big as ours.

00:38:23.000 I mean, so when humans sort of, and I think it's pretty clear that what drove a lot of our evolution, our ability to communicate, to strategize, you know, some of the anatomic things was based around hunting.

00:38:33.000 I mean, hunting, I know you're a big hunter, Joe, and I know it's not an easy thing to do.

00:38:37.000 You've got to think a lot.

00:38:38.000 You've got to be pretty smart to outsmart these animals, especially When you're in big groups, and back then when they've got, you know, I got a spears basically, you know, you look at, there's a population in Central Europe called the Gravetians, right? 0.58

00:38:51.000 So if you look at population markers for nutrition, right?

00:38:57.000 One of the things I look at is population height.

00:38:59.000 So if there's a real tall population, it means that they had really good nutrition.

00:39:04.000 And so if you look at the tallest people that probably ever lived were these Gravetians. 1.00

00:39:08.000 These guys were just decimating mammoths.

00:39:11.000 I mean, they were so efficient at killing mammoths.

00:39:13.000 And so that's probably basically all they ate, you know, for the most part.

00:39:16.000 They might have a little bit of vegetables, but their average height was like 6'2", and this was like 30,000 years ago.

00:39:22.000 That's crazy.

00:39:23.000 They must have been giants.

00:39:24.000 They were giants.

00:39:24.000 And so the people that have sort of genetically are related to those people now are the people from Croatia and the Netherlands, which are, again, the tallest people in the world.

00:39:31.000 The only other group that rivaled that Are the Milotic Africans, which are like the Watusi and the Maasai, which are all about six feet tall on average. 1.00

00:39:40.000 And their diet is primarily, as we know, livestock-based.

00:39:43.000 And then the other tall population historically were the Plains Indians, particularly the Cheyenne Indians.

00:39:48.000 And they just lived on mostly buffalo.

00:39:50.000 So it's kind of...

00:39:52.000 It's kind of interesting as far as what's the best food for nutrition.

00:39:56.000 That's what I'm finding from a performance standpoint.

00:39:59.000 It's just what makes me feel the best and work the best.

00:40:01.000 Do you supplement?

00:40:02.000 Do you take vitamins or minerals or anything?

00:40:05.000 I don't.

00:40:06.000 I won't say I take some salt.

00:40:11.000 I'll salt my meat.

00:40:12.000 I'll have some Himalayan salt or some regular salt.

00:40:14.000 How do you normally cook?

00:40:16.000 You cook for yourself most of the time?

00:40:18.000 Yeah, man, you get pretty good at cooking steaks.

00:40:20.000 So I'll either reverse sear, you know, reverse sear steak.

00:40:25.000 So you cook it slowly at a low heat to about an internal temperature?

00:40:30.000 Yeah, I do.

00:40:30.000 I just like medium rare and then I throw it in the pan for a couple minutes and sear it up and then eat it.

00:40:34.000 Or I'll just throw it on the grill.

00:40:35.000 Depends where I'm at.

00:40:36.000 If I'm in California, I've got a grill here, so I'll throw it on the grill.

00:40:39.000 If I'm back in New Mexico, I'll do it because I don't have a grill there.

00:40:43.000 So I do that.

00:40:44.000 That takes a couple minutes.

00:40:48.000 So you must do a lot of supermarket runs.

00:40:50.000 Does that get expensive?

00:40:51.000 It's got to be an expensive diet.

00:40:52.000 Yeah, so it depends.

00:40:56.000 I'm probably eating more than the average person that does this diet that I'm aware of.

00:41:00.000 It only goes about two pounds of meat.

00:41:03.000 A day?

00:41:04.000 A day, right.

00:41:05.000 A lot of people that don't have the budget, they'll just do ground beef and stuff like that.

00:41:11.000 You can eat two pounds of ground beef for under ten bucks a day, which is two cups of Starbucks, something like that.

00:41:17.000 It's actually not that bad for a lot of people.

00:41:20.000 Now, there's also people that have ethical concerns about the consumption of animals, especially the consumption of factory-farmed animals on a mass basis. 0.98

00:41:29.000 I mean, you're probably responsible for a whole goddamn field of dead cows. 0.99

00:41:33.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:41:33.000 So, I mean, I think I have a concern. 0.99

00:41:35.000 I think people that eat meat should be concerned about it, and we're the ones that primarily need to make sure that's not happening.

00:41:41.000 And so, I think, you know, as you know, I would argue that, you know, Since evolution began, humans have been eating meat, and that's just what happens in nature.

00:41:50.000 You know, if you look at how an animal is killed in a wild, if a lion takes down a zebra, it's not a pleasant experience for that animal.

00:41:57.000 And so most of the way that humans kill these animals now, you know, from a humane sense, is pretty darn humane.

00:42:03.000 I mean, even as a hunter, you know, if you hit an animal and you don't hit them in the right spot, You've got to track him down.

00:42:08.000 It may take an hour or longer.

00:42:12.000 The issue is not necessarily even just the eventual death of the animal.

00:42:16.000 It's also the life of the animal before it was killed.

00:42:18.000 Yeah, I agree with that, too.

00:42:19.000 And so I think that you have to look at, you know, if the animals, like if you've got chickens in cages and they can't turn around, right?

00:42:28.000 And they're just cramped in there.

00:42:29.000 That's awful.

00:42:30.000 That shouldn't be allowed.

00:42:31.000 One of the reasons they put chicken in a cage is because they'll peck the hell out of each other. 1.00

00:42:34.000 You know, if they don't separate, they'll just tear each other up. 0.98

00:42:37.000 So that, you know, there's different considerations on that.

00:42:39.000 You know, if you have an animal that you're, you know, because I talk to a lot of cattle ranchers, and most of them, I mean most of them, they really care about their animals.

00:42:46.000 They're out in the snow and the rain.

00:42:48.000 Making sure their animals are fed, making sure they're sheltered.

00:42:50.000 You know, if an animal goes down, they're taking care of that.

00:42:52.000 So, you know, there's probably some bad apples out there, and if we know about that stuff and some vegan documentary guy wants to make a film about that, then yeah, those guys should be saying, hey, don't mistreat your animals.

00:43:02.000 You know, don't Don't intentionally hurt them. 0.98

00:43:05.000 Don't have them standing in a pile of crap. 0.96

00:43:07.000 Give them some fresh air and some ability to move. 0.98

00:43:11.000 But if you look at cows or animals in a wild, they're hurt animals anyway.

00:43:15.000 So they hang out together anyway.

00:43:17.000 It's not like if they're indoors.

00:43:18.000 Now, if they're indoors and they've got You know, room to move around and they go in and go out.

00:43:23.000 I don't think that's a big issue.

00:43:24.000 And so I think you have to kind of, you know, you can't just make it all black and white.

00:43:27.000 Right.

00:43:28.000 There's some people that are good at it.

00:43:29.000 There's some people that are bad.

00:43:30.000 The bad ones need to be made not to do that anymore.

00:43:33.000 But, I mean, it doesn't change the fact that we all need to eat.

00:43:35.000 There's a company called ButcherBox that will sell you grass-fed, grass-finished beef, too.

00:43:40.000 They send it to you.

00:43:41.000 They're one of the sponsors of the show.

00:43:43.000 And I've eaten their meat.

00:43:45.000 It's very good.

00:43:46.000 And if you're in a place, don't we have, like, a...

00:43:50.000 Isn't there like some sort of a...

00:43:52.000 Like a...

00:43:54.000 Like a password or something that we give them?

00:43:57.000 Let's see if we can find that.

00:43:59.000 But, um...

00:44:01.000 There's ways to get...

00:44:03.000 I mean, you have to search for it, though.

00:44:05.000 It's not...

00:44:06.000 Most of the meat that you get, you don't really exactly know how the person is raising it.

00:44:11.000 It's hard.

00:44:12.000 I mean, unless you go to some sort of a farmer's market or something like that.

00:44:16.000 Oh, okay.

00:44:17.000 You can get $10 off plus free bacon by using the code word ROGAN at ButcherBox.com.

00:44:22.000 Nice.

00:44:23.000 So ButcherBox is one option.

00:44:26.000 I'm sure there's, like I said, farmers markets are great too.

00:44:29.000 You can actually meet the ranchers and get a sense of how they raise these animals.

00:44:34.000 But I think for health-wise, it's really critical to get grass-fed, grass-raised to get the best.

00:44:40.000 Do you pay attention to that or do you just take whatever you can get?

00:44:44.000 Yeah, so I think you're right in the fact that if you say what is the most nutrient-dense, what is the Best quality I can get.

00:44:53.000 Grass-fed, grass-finished is going to fill that bill.

00:44:56.000 Now, if you compare that to something that was, you know, fed corn, right?

00:44:59.000 And given hormones, and given antibiotics, and what else do they do?

00:45:04.000 Yeah, so, you know, you've got those things, and it's fed, you know, grain.

00:45:08.000 The difference nutritionally compared to, you know, because if you don't have any money and you can't afford this stuff, compared to the rest of the crap in the supermarket is, you know, so I'll use a MMA analogy for you.

00:45:20.000 So if grass-fed grain-fed beef is, you know, Conor McGregor or GSP, right, then this other stuff is, say, some guy who's like the number three contender or something like that.

00:45:30.000 Really?

00:45:30.000 It's that close?

00:45:31.000 The difference is, you know, because you look at hormones in beef, you know, so you don't want to eat hormones in your meat, right?

00:45:36.000 Right, you don't want antibiotics in your meat either, right?

00:45:39.000 So, and you're grass-fed, even the elk you kill, you've got hormones in that stuff because the animal makes it naturally.

00:45:44.000 Of course.

00:45:45.000 So you're getting a very low level.

00:45:48.000 Natural hormones.

00:45:48.000 And so what they do is they give those animals generally the same hormones.

00:45:53.000 And it increases the percentage a little bit more compared to what you and I make normally.

00:45:58.000 If we look at like nanograms, maybe, I can't remember the numbers exactly, but the scale is what's important.

00:46:04.000 So if they give you, if grass-fed beef gives you five nanograms of estrogen, grain-fed beef gives you 10 nanograms of estrogen, and then you compare it to eggs, which give you maybe 90, and you compare it to dairy, which gives you 110,

00:46:21.000 and then you compare it to, if you look at phytoestrogens, You know, that's in the millions, right?

00:46:28.000 So things like soybeans and stuff like that.

00:46:30.000 And then you compare it to what does your body naturally make, and that's like 30 or 40,000.

00:46:35.000 And so it's a really small level.

00:46:37.000 So I think if you can afford grass-fed and grain-fed, you know, I'm not saying how can you solve the world's problem, but I think if we just isolate for health only, say you're a poor guy and all you can afford is, you know, I can't afford this grass-fed meat.

00:46:50.000 I can't afford 20 bucks a pound for this stuff, right?

00:46:53.000 And ButcherBox is still too expensive for me.

00:46:55.000 Then that's probably still a better option than going back and eating, you know, the other crap, the Cheetos and the, you know, all this other stuff.

00:47:05.000 And even though, you know, like the organic fruits and stuff like that, you know, it's just expensive for people.

00:47:09.000 So, I mean, I think it's, you know, like I said, it depends on who your audience is.

00:47:12.000 You know, if you've got unlimited resources, and most people don't, then you have to say, well, what's, you know, what's...

00:47:18.000 From a health standpoint, what is most affordable and what's practical?

00:47:23.000 How do I get my health back?

00:47:24.000 Like I said, I'm not saying this is the best diet in the world for everybody.

00:47:29.000 I'm just saying you need to find out what works for you.

00:47:31.000 Right, but basically what you're saying is that grass-fed beef is better, but it's only slightly better for you.

00:47:36.000 Right, right.

00:47:37.000 I mean, in the grand scheme of things, right?

00:47:38.000 So if you're saying, I want to be...

00:47:40.000 As good as I possibly can be, then I'd say probably grass-fed, grain-fed, and grass-fed is probably better.

00:47:45.000 If you're like saying, I'm just sick and I don't want to be sick anymore, then I'd say get what you can afford.

00:47:49.000 So you really think that meat is in some ways a panacea for health?

00:47:54.000 You think that it really, if you just eat more meat, that your body will be, what, more vibrant, more healthy?

00:48:01.000 What is it about meat specifically?

00:48:03.000 Well, I think it's, you know, so this is another sort of misconception.

00:48:06.000 So I think a lot of people, it's extremely well absorbed in our body.

00:48:10.000 I mean, look at the end result of why we, what do we do when we eat, when we're eating, okay?

00:48:14.000 What's the end result?

00:48:16.000 We eat for two reasons.

00:48:17.000 We eat to get energy and to build animal tissue.

00:48:20.000 I mean, you and I are animals.

00:48:21.000 We're animal tissue.

00:48:23.000 The most efficient way to do that is just to eat some because your body has, it has, it has everything in the proportions that we need it, right?

00:48:30.000 Right.

00:48:31.000 And it's, you know, it's a misconception, you know, when you hear, A lot of people will say, you know, if you eat a bunch of meat, it's gonna sit there and rot in your intestines, and it's gonna putrefy, and stuff like that.

00:48:41.000 So, they've done studies on people that have had ileostomies, and these are people that have had their colon removed, right?

00:48:46.000 So you've had colon cancer, or, you know, inflammatory bowel disease, like Crohn's disease, where they take out your whole colon, and now you've got a little bag, which you poop into, this little bag, right?

00:48:56.000 So they've looked at people, and they've looked at what comes out when they eat meat, Almost nothing comes out.

00:49:01.000 There's a little bit of liquid, right?

00:49:03.000 So that means all that meat is being absorbed.

00:49:06.000 But when you eat a bunch of fiber and vegetables and plants, all that stuff goes up in the bag because you can't digest it.

00:49:11.000 You have to have bacteria in your colon to do that. 0.94

00:49:14.000 And humans are not really good at it compared to other primates.

00:49:17.000 We're really bad at it.

00:49:18.000 What about probiotics?

00:49:20.000 So I think probiotics, you know, The microbiome is fascinating.

00:49:25.000 I mean, there's a lot of research going on.

00:49:26.000 There's a lot of people just talking all about this stuff, how it affects your health.

00:49:29.000 One of the things that we try to say is, how do we define a healthy microbiome?

00:49:34.000 You can't yet.

00:49:35.000 We just don't know enough.

00:49:37.000 We don't even know everything about the human body.

00:49:40.000 And then to put in tens of billions of different bacteria, all different species, and say, This is the perfect combination or that's perfect.

00:49:47.000 We're so far away from knowing that we're in the very infancy of what that means.

00:49:51.000 So what I would say is if you're healthy, you know, if your joints don't hurt, if everything's going good, then probably by definition your microbiome is fine.

00:50:00.000 If you're eating just a meat-based diet, your microbiome is going to be different, and the probiotics are probably not going to make a difference for you.

00:50:05.000 But if you're eating, again, if you're eating a crappy diet, You know, and you're feeding your gut a bunch of sugar.

00:50:10.000 You're going to get this dysbiosis, which is bad bacteria.

00:50:16.000 And then, you know, maybe the probiotics might help in that situation.

00:50:20.000 I'm not convinced.

00:50:21.000 I just don't think there's enough evidence to show that that's a big deal.

00:50:26.000 That's interesting.

00:50:27.000 So you think that perhaps maybe the probiotics exist or maybe the probiotics are healthy?

00:50:34.000 Freaking out?

00:50:36.000 Well, audio levels?

00:50:38.000 Yeah.

00:50:38.000 Too loud.

00:50:39.000 Not loud enough.

00:50:40.000 So, the probiotics you think may be only beneficial if people are consuming a lot of variable things, or a varied diet, like carbohydrates, all sorts of different things, and maybe the probiotics are necessary to sort of balance you out?

00:50:58.000 Is that what you're thinking?

00:50:58.000 I mean, that potentially could be the case.

00:51:00.000 So you think that the microbiome of someone who eats meat is probably designed to eat meat?

00:51:05.000 Well, it is.

00:51:05.000 I mean, your microbiome reacts to whatever you do, how much sleep you get, how much exercise you do, how much you eat, how much stress is in your life.

00:51:13.000 This is very, very adaptable.

00:51:15.000 It can change in a day.

00:51:16.000 So whatever you're feeding it chronically is going to change what bacteria live there.

00:51:21.000 So, you know, it's like this thing about, you know, again, back to this meat putrefaction thing.

00:51:25.000 So if we look at the definition of putrefaction, you know, it sounds awful, right?

00:51:28.000 It's putrefying, right?

00:51:30.000 Putrefaction is the actary of bacteria on protein, right?

00:51:34.000 So if protein gets in your colon, it'll putrefy, right?

00:51:37.000 So again, when we go back to these ileostomy patients, they studied people that were getting soy protein and meat.

00:51:43.000 And guess which one had more protein going into the colon? 0.97

00:51:47.000 Soy protein.

00:51:48.000 Yeah.

00:51:49.000 So, eating a bunch of soybean stuff means more proteins going into your colon and you're gonna get more putrefacts in that way.

00:51:55.000 Is that rumor, like, I know very little about what soy is supposed to do to you in terms of, like, raising your estrogen levels.

00:52:03.000 Is that supposed to be a real thing?

00:52:05.000 Well, I mean, there's a lot of people who think so.

00:52:06.000 I mean, there's some studies that support that.

00:52:08.000 I don't know for sure.

00:52:09.000 I mean, I don't think soy is a particularly good food for us.

00:52:11.000 I know some people will say that fermented soy, you know, is a little better.

00:52:15.000 Yeah, I've heard that's good for you, actually, right?

00:52:17.000 What is that called, natto?

00:52:18.000 Natto, yeah.

00:52:19.000 I think it's an Asian type thing.

00:52:20.000 But, you know, I think that, you know, there's certainly some people that...

00:52:24.000 I think there's a lot of associations, guys getting gynecomastia and stuff like that from eating too much soy.

00:52:29.000 Have guys really done that? 1.00

00:52:30.000 I feel like that's one of those things where people just tell you, hey man, you're going to get bitch tits. 1.00

00:52:34.000 You know, I've got no idea. 0.99

00:52:35.000 I've never heard of guys getting that from anything other than steroids.

00:52:38.000 Yeah, I mean, there supposedly are, I don't know for sure.

00:52:41.000 I can't say for sure.

00:52:43.000 Okay.

00:52:45.000 Yeah, so now that you've been doing this, do you plan on, you've done it for a year now, do you plan on continuing this for life?

00:52:52.000 Is this your diet now?

00:52:53.000 Are you going to mix it up a little?

00:52:55.000 Right, so I'm going to, you know, I seriously doubt I will not eat a ton of meat.

00:52:59.000 You know, I just think I feel too good.

00:53:00.000 I mean, I think I want to feel good and perform as good as I can for as long as I can.

00:53:04.000 So whether I say, and this is what I tell people, you know, Do it for a couple months, because this is one of the problems.

00:53:10.000 So many people have health problems, and I think a lot of it's food-related, and it's really hard to sort that out.

00:53:15.000 If you're eating 100 different types of food, which one is it?

00:53:18.000 I don't know.

00:53:19.000 I'm going to drop this out, right?

00:53:22.000 And it's obviously variable in terms of your own individual biology.

00:53:26.000 Right.

00:53:27.000 So, but I mean, when you drop down to just meat, then it's pretty easy.

00:53:30.000 You just say, okay, I'm only eating meat.

00:53:31.000 Now if I add fruit back in, does that F me up or not?

00:53:35.000 You know, if it does, then I'm like, man, I shouldn't probably eat that.

00:53:37.000 You know, if I eat dairy back in.

00:53:39.000 So probably there will be a point.

00:53:41.000 When I'll say, hey, I'm going to, you know, maybe once in a while I have a, you know, have some berries again, you know, and then just see how I do with that.

00:53:49.000 I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.

00:53:50.000 There are a lot of people, I'll tell you, especially these guys have been doing it for 5, 8, 10, 15 years.

00:53:55.000 I mean, they're like, man, that stuff just screws me up and I don't want to do that.

00:53:58.000 Who was the guy that you were saying, did you find that gentleman online, young Jamie?

00:54:03.000 Did you get the tab?

00:54:05.000 I had a few people up, but I pulled them off.

00:54:07.000 Which one?

00:54:08.000 The guy that he was saying?

00:54:09.000 Joe Anderson?

00:54:10.000 I actually couldn't find him.

00:54:12.000 If you go on my Instagram, there's about, I don't know, about a month or two ago, I've got a picture.

00:54:20.000 I put up four of these people.

00:54:21.000 These are all people that have done it for a total of 55 years.

00:54:24.000 And there's one guy who's a marathon runner.

00:54:27.000 And then these other two couple that have been doing it for 20 years, another gal, there's another gal named Kelly Hogan, that she was like a big, morbidly obese woman, and she went on a carnival journey. 1.00

00:54:37.000 She's done it for eight years, and she got super lean.

00:54:40.000 She was totally infertile, couldn't have kids, right? 1.00

00:54:43.000 Super lean, carnivore diet, three kids later, happy as can be.

00:54:46.000 All she does is eats hamburgers every day. 1.00

00:54:48.000 I mean, that's her diet. 0.99

00:54:49.000 I mean, it's, you know, the stories I get, you know, this is because now I'm this kind of central point and I get all these crazy, crazy stories of people just...

00:54:57.000 Just from talking about it online?

00:54:59.000 Just from talking, yeah.

00:55:00.000 How fascinating is that?

00:55:01.000 Well, it's kind of like a little movement, I think.

00:55:03.000 And I think what you'll see over the next year or two, there's going to be a lot more people doing this just to try it, you know.

00:55:08.000 And I think, you know, it's a crazy, some people are going to do it just to say, hey, it's cool, I'm going to be a carnivore, I'm just going to screw around.

00:55:13.000 But I think there's people that honestly are doing it, and they're really seriously improving their health.

00:55:19.000 And I think whatever works is what you should do.

00:55:21.000 Well, I think that the removal of refined carbohydrates almost helps everybody.

00:55:27.000 I agree.

00:55:28.000 If not the removal, the severe restriction.

00:55:32.000 Just restrict most carbohydrates.

00:55:34.000 I mean, I think a day a week, just have at it. 1.00

00:55:36.000 Have a fucking slice of pizza. 1.00

00:55:38.000 Who gives a shit? 1.00

00:55:39.000 Go to town. 1.00

00:55:40.000 I don't think there's anything wrong with a cheat day.

00:55:41.000 But I think overall, refined carbohydrates just do not seem to be a healthy nor normal thing for your body to consume.

00:55:50.000 Well, if we look at, you know, historically, I mean, you know, we didn't start consuming dairy until about 12,000 years ago.

00:55:56.000 We didn't start farming until about the same time.

00:55:57.000 So those things are relatively novel.

00:56:00.000 You know, we didn't start eating all this processed stuff until about 100, you know, Crisco came out in 1910 or something like that.

00:56:05.000 So all that crap we've invented in the last century and then when high fructose corn syrup came in in the 70s.

00:56:10.000 All this stuff our human body just hasn't evolved for yet. 0.96

00:56:13.000 So I think we're getting seriously messed up by that stuff.

00:56:16.000 Yeah, and if you look at the change in our diet, there's a corresponding uptick in diabetes and all sorts of other obesity factors and health issues.

00:56:25.000 Sugar and refined carbohydrates, those are the two big ones.

00:56:28.000 The other debate is Whether or not eating all this meat is healthy for you.

00:56:32.000 And what about diverticulitis?

00:56:33.000 Have you ever heard about people getting that?

00:56:35.000 Because I know that's what Brock Lesnar got.

00:56:38.000 And one of the things that they said that he got it from just eating mostly meat.

00:56:41.000 Yeah, this is interesting because there's actually a guy named Peery, P-E-R-R-Y, did a study in 2014. Colonoscopies, right?

00:56:49.000 So he actually looked at people.

00:56:50.000 He was one of the first ones to do this.

00:56:51.000 And he looked at people on these diets and he found that the people that ate the highest amount of fiber and had the most bowel movements had the most incidence of diverticulosis.

00:57:00.000 So diverticulosis precedes diverticulitis.

00:57:03.000 So diverticula is just a little pouch that shoots out from your colon.

00:57:06.000 So it's like a little sack.

00:57:07.000 So what happens is that eventually gets infected and then you get diverticulitis.

00:57:10.000 But the people that were developing diverticulosis the most in his study, he did two or three like this, Showed the ones that were eating a bunch of fiber.

00:57:18.000 And there's also studies on...

00:57:20.000 So that fiber gets caught or something?

00:57:21.000 Is that what that is?

00:57:22.000 Potentially.

00:57:22.000 So the question is, one other thing people don't understand, you know, is because a lot of people, when they talk about ketogenic diets and they cut out their fiber, they're like, you're going to get all constipated, right?

00:57:30.000 I mean, you know, so basically I haven't had a bowel movement in a year, you know?

00:57:34.000 Yeah, it's not true, obviously, but so what happens is you just don't make anything.

00:57:38.000 I mean, all that meat, it goes right into your small intestines, it absorbs them next to nothing, gets to your colon.

00:57:45.000 Really?

00:57:45.000 Yeah, there's nothing.

00:57:46.000 There's hardly anything.

00:57:47.000 So you take little tiny poops?

00:57:48.000 Exactly.

00:57:48.000 What if you're like one of those dudes that's backed up and you don't even realize it and you got like 20 pounds of undigested?

00:57:53.000 Isn't that always the funny thing?

00:57:54.000 Yeah, that's the thing, like John Wayne and stuff like that, but what happens is...

00:57:57.000 What was the story?

00:57:58.000 Well, he died with a colon full of stuff.

00:58:00.000 Like a bowling ball.

00:58:01.000 Well, but I mean, who knows?

00:58:03.000 It wasn't meat.

00:58:04.000 You know, look at this, Joe.

00:58:05.000 If you go to the bathroom and you eat a bunch of corn, and you look down there, sometimes there's some corn floating around.

00:58:10.000 Sometimes.

00:58:10.000 Almost every time.

00:58:11.000 When's the last time you saw a piece of steak floating around in the toilet?

00:58:14.000 A bone.

00:58:17.000 T-bone.

00:58:17.000 Yeah, maybe if you're eating bones.

00:58:18.000 But I mean, meat just doesn't get there.

00:58:20.000 I mean, it's a total myth.

00:58:22.000 And so when we talk about what causes constipation, it's probably a neurologic thing.

00:58:26.000 It's probably a neuromuscular thing.

00:58:27.000 So the colon is not contracting correctly.

00:58:30.000 It may have to do with electrolyte deficiency.

00:58:32.000 It certainly varies depending on my diet.

00:58:35.000 When I eat a lot of vegetables, man, it just comes flying out like...

00:58:38.000 Well, it's because you're just putting more in, right?

00:58:40.000 So you're not constipating.

00:58:41.000 You're just shoving more stuff through the tube.

00:58:44.000 Sort of, but it seems like it comes out quicker.

00:58:46.000 Like when I drink...

00:58:48.000 The craziest thing for sure for me is kale shakes.

00:58:50.000 When I drink kale shakes, woo!

00:58:52.000 Hang on, Hannah.

00:58:53.000 Well, you're getting a bunch of liquid fibers getting into your colon a lot quicker.

00:58:58.000 It cleans it all out.

00:58:59.000 It makes you feel good, though.

00:59:00.000 Well, it may be.

00:59:00.000 Some people do it, but there's no real prize for the most bowel.

00:59:03.000 When you get to the end of your life, you're not going to get an award for having more bowel movements.

00:59:07.000 You don't?

00:59:07.000 You don't.

00:59:08.000 Shit. 1.00

00:59:09.000 Are you sure? 1.00

00:59:11.000 Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm not aware of it.

00:59:15.000 Lied to again.

00:59:17.000 But most people think that, just in all seriousness, that consuming fiber is important for bowel movements and overall intestinal health and all that stuff.

00:59:27.000 Yeah, there's no doubt the more fiber you eat, the more bowel movements you're going to have, but what happens is if you get constipated, and there's another study about this, they looked at people with chronic constipation, they were always constipated, and the only thing that helped them was taking all fiber out of their diet.

00:59:40.000 Really?

00:59:40.000 Yeah, there's a study.

00:59:42.000 But that's crazy because that's what people, like, what is that called?

00:59:46.000 Mucistil?

00:59:46.000 What is that stuff?

00:59:48.000 Metamucil.

00:59:48.000 Yeah, but what happens is, what you have is you've got a neuromuscular problem where the colon is not contracting the right way, and so you're blacked up, and then you just shove more fiber in there, and it just fills up more and more.

01:00:01.000 And eventually, you might be able to force it all through.

01:00:04.000 But that's not, you know, how that's, you know, a lot of people will say that, I will tell you, there's a lot of people that will tell me fiber just jacks up their intestines.

01:00:13.000 I mean, they feel awful when they're taking a lot of fiber.

01:00:16.000 Huh.

01:00:16.000 I have heard that before when people try fiber supplements that they have issues.

01:00:21.000 Now, do you vary?

01:00:23.000 Do you eat lamb occasionally or wild game?

01:00:27.000 Yeah, I mean, it depends what's available.

01:00:28.000 I mean, you know, I'm pretty happy with beef, but I mean, when I was in France earlier this year and I had just a bunch of lamb, you know, that's easier to get.

01:00:37.000 I'll have sometimes without chicken.

01:00:38.000 You know, I haven't eaten game meat since I've started this, but I've eaten elk or foreign deer and, you know, chilies and stews and stuff like that.

01:00:45.000 So that's fine.

01:00:46.000 But you don't necessarily eat a lot of chicken, huh?

01:00:48.000 It's mostly red meat?

01:00:49.000 Yeah, I just find it, and there's a lot of people like me that do this, they just find chicken is not as satisfying.

01:00:55.000 It's probably not as nutritious, you know?

01:00:57.000 It doesn't feel as satisfying when you're eating it.

01:00:59.000 Yeah.

01:01:00.000 It's probably not, you know, I think it's just harder.

01:01:02.000 Yeah, I'm always trying to figure out like what is that response that you get when you slice into a steak and it's juicy and delicious and your whole body goes like, oh!

01:01:10.000 I think that's a primitive thing that goes back a hundred thousand years.

01:01:16.000 I mean, that's like the point of You know, all this hunting we did and it's just what kind of satisfies us.

01:01:23.000 That's why I always try to explain to people that the difference between like domestic beef versus like a slice of like mousse tenderloin.

01:01:30.000 Like the difference in the richness of the flavor and the darkness of the meat and the nutrition content of the food is so much higher that the I think it's a primal thing.

01:01:49.000 I think it's just like, this is satisfaction.

01:01:53.000 Well, the vegan army, they've got their troops pointed in your direction, right? 0.56

01:01:58.000 I'm sure, yeah.

01:01:59.000 I've got a bunch of tweets about you, and one of the tweets was talking about your record as a doctor in New Mexico and stuff that you and I went back and forth about.

01:02:09.000 Sure, sure.

01:02:10.000 So let's get that out and try to figure out what the issue was.

01:02:15.000 Sure.

01:02:17.000 So, you know, I was, you know, like I said, I'll just go to my background a little bit, so I, you know, I go to medical school, you know, I go to, you know, degree in biology, then I go to medical school, then I drop out of medical school to play professional rugby, you know, I had this kind of crazy, crazy career.

01:02:30.000 Then I go into the military and I launch nuclear bombs for, you know, five years.

01:02:35.000 Nuclear bombs?

01:02:36.000 Yeah, I was a nuclear bomb launch officer for about five years.

01:02:39.000 Where do you still launch nuclear bombs?

01:02:41.000 Well, I mean, up in Wyoming, in Nebraska, in Colorado.

01:02:45.000 They actually detonate them?

01:02:46.000 No, no. 0.97

01:02:46.000 That's where you shoot them from. 0.97

01:02:48.000 Right.

01:02:49.000 Okay, so you didn't actually launch them, but you were working on them.

01:02:51.000 I was a guy that if we went to war, Donald Trump says we want to nuke North Korea, I would have been a guy that goes boom, presses a button.

01:02:58.000 So I did that.

01:02:58.000 So, you know, they do all this crazy psychological screening to make sure you're not some psychopath.

01:03:03.000 You know, so I'm this, like, straight, Ethical guy that's just like, you know, just a good solid guy, top secret clearance and all this stuff.

01:03:12.000 So I do all this stuff.

01:03:13.000 So then I go play rugby, and then I get tired of getting my head kicked in.

01:03:16.000 You know, I was playing, you know, I remember my last match, I was playing at some Russian team.

01:03:19.000 I'm laying on the ground, and they're just teeing off on my head, kicking me in the head.

01:03:23.000 I got bloods coming out of my ears, and I'm like, I'm 30 years old, and I'm like, F it, I'm gonna go back to medical school.

01:03:28.000 So I go back to medical school with military pays for it this time.

01:03:33.000 Then, you know, I do my time and, you know, go through school, get my training.

01:03:37.000 I graduate top, you know, right at the top of my class in medical school.

01:03:40.000 Because getting orthopedics, you got to be, like, it's one of these real competitive fields.

01:03:44.000 You got to be really at the top of the class to do that. 0.59

01:03:46.000 So I do that stuff, do all my training, bust my ass, do really well, get all these awards and training. 0.89

01:03:51.000 Then I get to the military and then they send me to war, right? 0.92

01:03:54.000 So they send me to Afghanistan.

01:03:56.000 And if it's okay, I'll tell you a little bit about this.

01:03:59.000 Yeah, please.

01:03:59.000 So I come out of training, not long out of training, and me and this other dude, his name's Tom Large, he's an excellent, excellent surgeon, just a great guy, great people.

01:04:07.000 Me and him are the only two guys at the main center in Afghanistan.

01:04:10.000 So you fly out there, it takes you about three days.

01:04:13.000 You go to Bangor, Maine, and these old ladies give you lobster bisque on the way out. 1.00

01:04:16.000 It's kind of cool.

01:04:17.000 Then you fly into Turkey, and then we sat there for like six hours on a runway.

01:04:21.000 Wouldn't let us move.

01:04:22.000 They wouldn't let us off the plane.

01:04:23.000 Then they fly us into Kyrgyzstan, which is, they used to be part of the Soviet Union.

01:04:27.000 So we've got a U.S. base in what was usually the Soviet Union.

01:04:30.000 So we stay there for a while, and it's freezing cold.

01:04:32.000 And then we get on this C-130, which is a military plane.

01:04:35.000 You know, you're packed in there with the cargo.

01:04:37.000 And you fly into Afghanistan, and they're shooting at you, so they turn off the lights, so hopefully they don't hit you and they're shooting at you as you come in.

01:04:42.000 So we get in there, and then I get off the plane, and they put you in this giant hall with like 300 guys on cots.

01:04:49.000 First night, and then we go to the first day to go to work, right?

01:04:52.000 And we're taking over from the Army, and I was in the Air Force at the time.

01:04:55.000 So we're taking over from the Army, and the first thing rolls in, and it was pouring.

01:04:58.000 I remember this, man. 0.99

01:04:59.000 It was like, welcome to fucking war. 0.99

01:05:01.000 There was a guy, a Canadian guy. 0.99

01:05:03.000 He was a 23-year-old kid.

01:05:04.000 He was a Special Forces guy, you know, full beard because, you know, the Special Forces guys would wear beards so they could blend in, right?

01:05:10.000 Both legs blown right off. 0.99

01:05:11.000 I mean, like, I'm like, holy shit. 0.98

01:05:13.000 You know, so this is like, this is, you know, stuff that's got real. 0.98

01:05:15.000 So every day...

01:05:17.000 Boom, boom, boom, boom. 1.00

01:05:18.000 Trump, crazy Trump. 1.00

01:05:19.000 We would get people blown up by bombs. 1.00

01:05:21.000 I mean, their whole, their legs are being on.

01:05:23.000 I mean, the third day we got there, we had a kid, he was a 17-year-old kid.

01:05:26.000 This is an enemy.

01:05:27.000 We were taking care of enemies, too, right? 0.97

01:05:29.000 He's setting up a roadside bomb to kill our guys, right? 0.93

01:05:31.000 He's a 17-year-old kid from Pakistan. 1.00

01:05:33.000 He blows himself up. 0.98

01:05:35.000 Blows up both his legs above the knee. 0.50

01:05:38.000 Blows off one of his arms and most of his hands.

01:05:40.000 So he's basically, I mean, he's got nothing left.

01:05:42.000 So we're operating on this guy.

01:05:43.000 We do all these operations to basically save the kid's life.

01:05:46.000 Even though he's an enemy, because as a physician, that's just your job.

01:05:50.000 Right.

01:05:50.000 So what happens to this guy is that we fix him up.

01:05:53.000 It takes us, you know, a month to get him stabilized.

01:05:55.000 And they take him out the gate. 0.92

01:05:57.000 The Afghan army just goes and shoots him in the head. 0.97

01:05:59.000 Really? 1.00

01:06:00.000 I mean, we're like, fuck. 1.00

01:06:01.000 You know, we're like, what the hell are we doing here? 1.00

01:06:03.000 You know, it's like we're doing all this work, and they just go and kill these people.

01:06:06.000 They did that because they knew who he was and what he had done?

01:06:09.000 Yeah, they knew he was an enemy, and so, you know, they don't, you know...

01:06:12.000 They don't play games.

01:06:13.000 And so, and this happened the other way, too, around.

01:06:15.000 We saw this.

01:06:15.000 That seems like a lot of wasted money.

01:06:16.000 It is.

01:06:17.000 It's a waste.

01:06:17.000 It's heartbreaking.

01:06:18.000 You know, you get in there, and so we're getting...

01:06:20.000 I'm getting these people, they're blown up by rockets, their whole legs blown.

01:06:23.000 Do you get attached to...

01:06:24.000 I mean, even if it's the enemy, like, you're in the military, you're working as a surgeon, you're overseas, you're taking care of...

01:06:32.000 I mean, obviously, it's a 17-year-old kid.

01:06:35.000 Right.

01:06:35.000 Like...

01:06:36.000 It's almost like it's not even his fault.

01:06:38.000 This is the thing.

01:06:39.000 I mean, a lot of it was a Taliban at the time. 0.98

01:06:41.000 And these guys are like, you know, if you don't come fight for us, we're going to kill your family.

01:06:44.000 So a lot of these little kids are out there doing this.

01:06:47.000 That's not what they want to do.

01:06:48.000 It's not like they're the big guys.

01:06:50.000 So you kind of do.

01:06:51.000 I mean, it's like, you know, it's like, hey, you know, it's not my job to punish these people.

01:06:54.000 It's my job to take care of these people.

01:06:56.000 Were you there when they shot the kid?

01:06:57.000 Or did you just hear about it?

01:06:58.000 No, we just heard about him.

01:06:59.000 We're like, what happened to him?

01:07:00.000 Well, they killed him.

01:07:01.000 You know, we heard about several of our patients this happened to, so it was pretty frustrating.

01:07:04.000 So we get in there and there's like people like, I mean, little kids.

01:07:08.000 We're getting these little kids, two, three-year-old kids, stepping on landmines, legs blown off.

01:07:12.000 We had one little three-year-old kid.

01:07:14.000 I mean, he was...

01:07:15.000 I mean, he was... 0.97

01:07:17.000 I mean, somebody drug him behind a truck for like a mile, and they drug this kid through the streets, to the rough asphalt street, and his legs fucking ripped off. 0.95

01:07:25.000 I mean, his kid's road rash. 0.95

01:07:28.000 Actually, his legs were ripped off.

01:07:29.000 He was burned everywhere, and we're in there treating his stuff.

01:07:31.000 Why did they do that to him?

01:07:32.000 I don't know.

01:07:33.000 Just mad at their parents.

01:07:34.000 I don't know.

01:07:35.000 This is not a life-friendly place, right?

01:07:37.000 Life is inconsequential there.

01:07:40.000 We had a pediatrician who was talking to this guy who was a farmer, right?

01:07:45.000 And he was telling us about his tractor, right?

01:07:47.000 He was real proud he had a tractor.

01:07:48.000 It was real expensive to have a tractor in there.

01:07:50.000 So what he would do, because tractors are real valuable, he would have his kids walk in front of the tractor so they didn't hit any landmines.

01:07:57.000 Oh my god.

01:07:58.000 So if your kid, he's like, I can make another kid.

01:08:00.000 I can't afford it.

01:08:02.000 Oh my god.

01:08:03.000 This is the mentality there.

01:08:05.000 You know, it's just...

01:08:06.000 Oh my god.

01:08:07.000 Oh my god.

01:08:08.000 I can't even hear this.

01:08:09.000 Yeah, I mean, it's crazy stuff.

01:08:10.000 So we get in there...

01:08:11.000 Could you imagine?

01:08:11.000 You have kids.

01:08:12.000 Could you imagine telling your fucking kid to walk in front of landlines? 1.00

01:08:15.000 I couldn't do it. 1.00

01:08:16.000 I mean, it would be awful.

01:08:18.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.

01:08:20.000 So we get this stuff, and then it just keeps getting worse.

01:08:23.000 I mean, it's like every day we get these people with...

01:08:26.000 You know, they're blown up, and you're looking at their hip socket.

01:08:29.000 You know, you're like, a guy's laying there with his leg completely gone.

01:08:31.000 You can see his spine, his hip socket.

01:08:34.000 Day in and day out, we're seeing this stuff.

01:08:36.000 We get...

01:08:37.000 We had this one...

01:08:40.000 So you remember Dick Cheney was the vice president, right?

01:08:43.000 Yeah.

01:08:43.000 So he flies into the base, right?

01:08:46.000 And it was supposed to be a secret.

01:08:47.000 No one's supposed to know about it.

01:08:48.000 But the Taliban guys found out about it, right?

01:08:50.000 Yeah. 0.74

01:08:51.000 So what they do is they go to our gate, set off a suicide bomb, and they just kill, I mean, tons of people.

01:08:59.000 And we get all these casualties.

01:09:01.000 Most of them are civilians, right?

01:09:03.000 So we get all these civilian casualties, little kids and adults. 0.98

01:09:07.000 You know, in their suicide vests, they put all these metal bearings, you know, like half-inch thick metal bearings, and they cover them up and cover them in shit so they get infected, and they blow through people. 0.80

01:09:18.000 I mean, you get people with stuff going through their brains and shattered bones everywhere, and all these people that are just, you know, dying. 0.82

01:09:23.000 So it's chaos.

01:09:24.000 You know, all these people get swarmed in there.

01:09:25.000 We were getting this stuff all the time.

01:09:26.000 This was the biggest one we had.

01:09:28.000 And so we were, I mean, we literally, 40 hours straight, you're working.

01:09:32.000 You know, you're trying to save people's lives.

01:09:33.000 You know, I'm operating with the general surgeons on people's bellies, which I'm not trained to do, but I'm just helping.

01:09:38.000 We're trying to do this stuff.

01:09:39.000 So in the middle of this operation, we're in there operating, you know, trying to take care of these people.

01:09:43.000 And the operating room is just a little, I mean, it's like a little metal storage building.

01:09:48.000 You know, it's like a little, like if you're moving, you know, there's little podge things, you know?

01:09:52.000 So they stick a couple...

01:09:55.000 Operating beds in there and we're going as fast and we're wearing body armor.

01:09:57.000 We have 9mm strapped to us and we're operating.

01:10:00.000 You know, it's hard to move around.

01:10:01.000 It's real small.

01:10:03.000 And we're sitting in there and they say, hey guys, we think there's another bomber inside the hospital, you know, and the hospital may blow off. 0.99

01:10:10.000 So you're sitting there going, you know, your butthole tightens up and you're like, well, fuck, I got to keep operating, you know, because I'm trying to save this guy's life. 0.99

01:10:17.000 So we keep, we just like, well, we're gonna go, we're gonna go, right? 1.00

01:10:20.000 So we just keep, you know, we keep operating.

01:10:23.000 Fortunately, they, you know, they didn't, they didn't find, because what they thought they did is that somebody snuck in as a casualty, so they'd sometimes do that.

01:10:28.000 They'd blow people up, and then they'd sneak in as a casualty and blow more people up.

01:10:32.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.

01:10:34.000 So it's like, you know, it's kind of freaky, and so I, you know, I was like...

01:10:37.000 What an insane environment.

01:10:38.000 How long were you there for?

01:10:39.000 Six months, yeah.

01:10:42.000 Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's pretty crazy stuff.

01:10:45.000 So, you know, we get out of there, and, you know, I mean, it was just a tremendous experience.

01:10:50.000 I mean, it was just like, because there was nothing I could see after that.

01:10:54.000 It was like, that ain't nothing.

01:10:55.000 Everything I saw after that as a sergeant was like, this is no big deal, right?

01:10:58.000 Right.

01:10:59.000 So then I get out, and then I, you know, I get out of the military.

01:11:02.000 I do another five years just taking care of normal guys in the military, right?

01:11:05.000 Taking care of troops and stuff like that.

01:11:07.000 Doing fine.

01:11:08.000 I worked for all these other hospitals and did fine.

01:11:10.000 I never had any problems.

01:11:11.000 And then I get to this other hospital.

01:11:13.000 And I joined this group, and they make me the head of the group, right?

01:11:16.000 What kind of group?

01:11:17.000 It's just like an orthopedic surgery group.

01:11:19.000 And when I got there, there were like two guys, and they weren't doing hardly any business at all.

01:11:25.000 It was like really slow.

01:11:26.000 No one knew they were there.

01:11:28.000 You know, they were in part of this big, huge group, had all these other doctors, but they didn't even know they existed. 0.99

01:11:31.000 So I got there and I said, well, this is crap. 0.90

01:11:34.000 And one of the reasons, because no one was seeing anything, they refused all these patients. 0.86

01:11:37.000 And I got there and I said, hey man, I'm gonna go talk to all these other doctors and let them know we're alive, that we're here, and that We're going to see anything you want to send us, and we'll take care of it, and if we can't, we'll make sure it gets taken care of the right way.

01:11:49.000 So that happened, and we started growing, right?

01:11:51.000 So we went from two guys to 12 guys in about three years, and we were very, very busy, real busy group.

01:11:57.000 And the rival group from out of town, from across the street, didn't really like it that much, because we were taking millions of dollars from them, I mean, tens of millions of dollars in their business, right?

01:12:07.000 Because orthopedic surgery is very, very lucrative for a hospital.

01:12:10.000 There's things like cardiology, where they're putting in stents, And sir, all these procedure-based practices make a lot of money for hospitals, so they really like it, right?

01:12:20.000 So they're really happy.

01:12:21.000 They're happy with me.

01:12:21.000 I'm like the, you know, I'm like the hero, right?

01:12:24.000 Because they're like, man, you're making us a lot of money.

01:12:25.000 The group across town doesn't like me very much because I'm taking all their money away.

01:12:29.000 So they approached us and they said, you know, why don't you join our group?

01:12:32.000 You know, we'll take care.

01:12:34.000 And I said, no, I don't want to do that.

01:12:35.000 But two of my partners did.

01:12:37.000 They eventually left.

01:12:37.000 So I'm the only holdout guy.

01:12:38.000 But I'm still going.

01:12:39.000 I'm still building the group.

01:12:41.000 And so I'm like the head of the snake, the rival, right?

01:12:45.000 But here's what's kind of happened.

01:12:46.000 So I'm busy.

01:12:46.000 I'm doing well.

01:12:47.000 My patients are happy.

01:12:48.000 I'm doing really well.

01:12:48.000 I've got low, real low complication rates.

01:12:51.000 You know, everybody's, you know, I'm very popular.

01:12:54.000 You know, I'm on billboards.

01:12:55.000 I'm on magazines.

01:12:56.000 I'm on radios.

01:12:58.000 You know, I'm just their poster board, basically, right?

01:13:01.000 So then, as I found with my diet, I started seeing patients getting better by just changing their diet.

01:13:07.000 And when you look in the orthopedics, you know, like bone disease, like arthritis, there's nothing about diet in there.

01:13:13.000 I mean, you study about it.

01:13:14.000 If somebody comes into your office, you know, you'll tell them, you know, we can give you some Tylenol.

01:13:19.000 We can give you some, you know, another anti-inflammatory drug.

01:13:23.000 We can stick some cortisone in your knee.

01:13:25.000 You know, if that doesn't work, maybe we'll send you to physical therapy.

01:13:28.000 We might put a scope in there.

01:13:30.000 And if none of that works, you know, and this is an end stage, we're going to replace your knee, right?

01:13:34.000 So what I was finding, you know, as I started doing this with patients, is that these patients are getting better just by changing their diet, putting them on a ketogenic diet.

01:13:42.000 At that time, I was doing keto.

01:13:43.000 So I was like, hey, man, try this.

01:13:45.000 So in my nurse, and I had this, and this is one of the things that kind of, I'm very jaded about the way the business side of medicine is now.

01:13:52.000 This has been a pretty interesting experience for me.

01:13:54.000 So I had a nurse that was just, I mean, she was a wonderful person.

01:13:57.000 I mean, the nicest, sweetest gal in the world.

01:14:00.000 She would work so hard for these patients.

01:14:02.000 She would take care of, you know, anything you needed done, you'd tell her, hey, take care.

01:14:05.000 And she was just awesome, right?

01:14:06.000 The hospital said, you're staying too late and we're having to pay you overtime.

01:14:10.000 And she's like, well, I'm taking care of patients.

01:14:11.000 Well, we don't care.

01:14:12.000 I don't want you to work late because it costs us too much money.

01:14:14.000 So it's just like...

01:14:15.000 It was one of these things where you're starting to see that, you know, it's all about the money.

01:14:18.000 And then we were like, so all these surgeons are, you know, as a surgeon, you get used to using certain equipment.

01:14:23.000 You know, it's like, you know, I'm using this particular thing to replace people's joints.

01:14:27.000 And you do it for years and years and years, and you get pretty good at it.

01:14:29.000 And so what the hospital said is, hey, we got a bargain deal with this other company, so you guys are going to use that.

01:14:35.000 You know, we're like, no, we don't want to use that.

01:14:36.000 We learned how to do this.

01:14:37.000 We don't even know how to use that stuff.

01:14:38.000 So they force everybody to do this, you know, just to say, you know...

01:14:42.000 Some new surgical equipment, is that what you're saying?

01:14:43.000 Yeah, well, basically, you know, there's a system.

01:14:46.000 It's like if you drive a Ford truck your whole life...

01:14:48.000 Oh, I understand what you're saying.

01:14:50.000 And then they say, no, you're going to drive a Chevy now.

01:14:51.000 Right, but this is surgical equipment.

01:14:53.000 This is surgical equipment.

01:14:54.000 The whole reason is that we're going to save you money.

01:14:56.000 All the surgeons, we're bitching. 1.00

01:14:58.000 The ones the guys we're already using are like, I don't care.

01:14:59.000 And this is the other group.

01:15:00.000 We don't care.

01:15:01.000 But our group was like...

01:15:02.000 We don't use this stuff, man.

01:15:04.000 It's stuff we don't even know how to use.

01:15:05.000 You're not adapted to it.

01:15:06.000 You're not adapting.

01:15:07.000 You're going to compromise patient care a little bit for this.

01:15:10.000 This is one of those things where I was very vocal against this.

01:15:12.000 I was like, man, this is BS. This is what we're trained on.

01:15:17.000 We're going to end up...

01:15:19.000 There's going to be patients that are going to be problematic from this stuff.

01:15:23.000 So that was an aside thing.

01:15:24.000 And then there was a system where...

01:15:26.000 It's another thing.

01:15:27.000 They put in...

01:15:28.000 This is one thing that all physicians hate.

01:15:30.000 It's a thing called an electronic medical record.

01:15:31.000 It's a computer-based record.

01:15:33.000 Not that it's a computer-based thing, but they're awful.

01:15:35.000 I mean, they sit there, and their main function is to collect billing and to do coding.

01:15:40.000 So it's to capture as much information as you can so you can bill more.

01:15:44.000 That's why hospitals like them.

01:15:47.000 So they put this on you, and it's like...

01:15:49.000 It's really hard to put good information there, because all it is is generate a bunch of data that's totally illegible.

01:15:55.000 You look at it, it's like you get 20 pages of BS and two paragraphs of stuff you need.

01:16:00.000 So where did it all go bad?

01:16:03.000 So basically what happened is when I started telling people, I started talking to people out of surgery, right?

01:16:11.000 I started saying, I don't think you need surgery.

01:16:14.000 And then I started talking to the administrators and say, hey guys, I really want to spend a day a week just doing lifestyle counseling.

01:16:20.000 I don't want to...

01:16:22.000 You know, constantly do this, because I think this can work really well.

01:16:25.000 Constantly, you're making the cutting motion, like constantly do surgery.

01:16:27.000 Constantly surgery, right.

01:16:28.000 And so they basically said, no, there's no appetite for that.

01:16:31.000 Your skill is a surgeon.

01:16:31.000 We want you there.

01:16:32.000 You know, in other words, keep making us a lot of money, right?

01:16:35.000 Right.

01:16:35.000 So I'm like, you know, you know, and my nurse will tell me, I was printing out I made a list of all this reading.

01:16:42.000 I had his book, and I had Anita Tychols' book on, and I had this guy named Butterbob Riggs, all these ketogenic things, references, and I was handing them out 20, 25 of those every single day, and I was spending time with the patients, you know, because normally you'd only get like eight minutes to see a patient,

01:16:59.000 you know, figure out the problem.

01:17:00.000 Figure out a plan, go, go, go.

01:17:01.000 And I was like, now I'm spending 20 minutes talking to these guys about diet.

01:17:04.000 And so, you know, then I'm seeing less patients.

01:17:06.000 And the hospital keeps saying, you know, we don't really like that.

01:17:11.000 So because I was ahead of the group and I was well-liked by everybody, I had really good patient records, I mean, really good patient satisfaction, you know, really low complication rates.

01:17:22.000 I mean, they were like, well, we don't like that.

01:17:24.000 So then they go, there's something called peer review, right?

01:17:27.000 So they can just pull your records and say, We don't like the way you did this, and we're gonna criticize your work.

01:17:35.000 And so they did that, and they went through there, and this is one of the things they said, well, Every surgeon will have X amount of complications, right?

01:17:42.000 It's like, you know, if you do, you know, 100 surgeries, about 5% of the time there's going to be some complications.

01:17:50.000 Somebody's going to get an infection.

01:17:51.000 Somebody's going to bleed too much.

01:17:53.000 Somebody's going to get a blood clot.

01:17:54.000 You know, if it's an orthopedic surgeon, maybe one of the screws you put in breaks or something like that.

01:17:57.000 Those things are all complications.

01:17:58.000 That happens to everybody, no matter what.

01:18:01.000 So what they said is there's a low threshold, right?

01:18:05.000 There's like a, you know, we're gonna say every year we're gonna give you two complications that were your fault, right?

01:18:11.000 Because most of the time you have a complication, it's like, man, there's nothing I could have done differently.

01:18:14.000 Equipment failures.

01:18:15.000 Yeah, or they'll say you made the wrong decision, that led to a complication.

01:18:18.000 So they'll say you can get two a year, right?

01:18:20.000 And it doesn't matter if you do 100 surgeries a year or you do 500 surgeries a year, the number's still two, right?

01:18:27.000 And I'm like, You know, because I was here for like five years, and like every year I was like one, one, one, one, just nothing, minimal, right?

01:18:34.000 One year they go back and say, oh, you had three this year.

01:18:37.000 I'm like, yeah, but I did five times as many surgeries as anybody else.

01:18:40.000 And they said, well, it doesn't matter.

01:18:41.000 We're going to still put you through peer review.

01:18:43.000 So what they do is they hire, remember this other group that I was pissing off that I was taking $10 million a year from?

01:18:48.000 They hire their guy, that guy, to look through my stuff.

01:18:51.000 Why would they do that?

01:18:52.000 Because that's what they wanted to do.

01:18:54.000 But why would they do that if that person on that other side is the competition?

01:18:58.000 Because he was in the position to do it, right?

01:19:01.000 And that's not supposed to happen.

01:19:02.000 It'd be like if you were a Bellator guy and he said, I want the Bellator guy to review the UFC, right? 0.98

01:19:08.000 I think Joe Rogan sucks as an announcer.

01:19:10.000 I'm going to have a Bellator guy go after him, right? 0.96

01:19:12.000 So it's total conflict of interest, right?

01:19:14.000 So I'm like this naive, ethical guy that's like, well, you know, I know I had good care and patients were doing fine.

01:19:23.000 And then, you know, I was just like, okay, well, okay, that's fine.

01:19:27.000 And so they get it back, and the guy, and they looked at these, they looked at a dozen cases they've selected, you know, so they could pick whatever they want.

01:19:32.000 And they said, well, he said, I think six of these cases were below average.

01:19:36.000 You know, I don't like the way you documented stuff, and this, and I disagree with what you did.

01:19:39.000 So I'm like, and they said, well, that's okay, you know, you know, you're fine.

01:19:43.000 I said, well, do I need to stop operating or something like that?

01:19:45.000 They said, no, no, no, no, you're fine.

01:19:47.000 What we're going to do is we're going to get an independent review, right?

01:19:49.000 And this is supposed to be someone with no conflicts of interest, right?

01:19:53.000 So the way this is supposed to happen is that they were supposed to let me see what the cases are and put my comments in there, right?

01:20:03.000 And they were supposed to be totally in there.

01:20:05.000 So what they did instead is they wouldn't let me know any of the cases.

01:20:09.000 They told me, you can't see anything, right?

01:20:12.000 And the guy that had the conflicts of interest, they gave him all of his findings and sent them to this guy, right?

01:20:18.000 And this guy, and I don't know the situation for this guy, but I found this out about six months later.

01:20:24.000 He is either senile or totally drunk.

01:20:26.000 I mean, it was just like...

01:20:27.000 You know, so he gets this report, right?

01:20:29.000 And it's just bad.

01:20:30.000 It's like, looks really bad.

01:20:32.000 And I'll talk about some of the details in a second, but it just looks really bad.

01:20:35.000 And they pull me in the office and say, we got this really bad independent report, right?

01:20:40.000 And I'm like, well, what cases?

01:20:42.000 We can't tell you.

01:20:43.000 But it's really bad, and we're going to suspend your privileges.

01:20:46.000 We're not going to let you work here anymore.

01:20:47.000 So essentially what you're trying to say is they targeted you and they targeted you because you were changing what you were doing and you were trying to counsel people with lifestyle and they decided to pick on you and try to find things that were wrong in some of the past surgeries that you've done.

01:21:03.000 I think there's a combination.

01:21:04.000 I think there was a combination of problems.

01:21:07.000 Some people weren't doing it intentionally, but there was definitely possibly some of that going on.

01:21:13.000 Anyway, so they get this report, and the guy, there's two people, they bring me in the office and say, you know, we're gonna shut down, you can't go to your clinic, you can't talk to anybody you work with, we're gonna deny you access to all the clinic charts, we're gonna shut off your email, you can't look at anything, right?

01:21:28.000 Like I just committed murder, like I'm some pariah.

01:21:31.000 And then they say, then the guy, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, I mean, it's like my kid just died.

01:21:36.000 I mean, this is something I spent my whole life training for.

01:21:39.000 You know, I'm doing this stuff and it's like, you know, I mean, it's like you're like dazed and confused and numb.

01:21:46.000 I mean, I'm like numb.

01:21:47.000 I'm like, I'm like, I'm going to drive my fricking car off a cliff.

01:21:51.000 You know, you're like suicidal almost, you know? 0.78

01:21:53.000 So the guy comes to me and he goes, hey man, we got this really bad stuff on you.

01:21:56.000 It's going to go really bad.

01:21:57.000 We're going to take it to a committee in a couple of days.

01:21:59.000 And I think the best thing you can do is just say you're sorry, write a letter.

01:22:02.000 I'll even help you write this letter.

01:22:04.000 You know, basically say confess that you did the wrong thing.

01:22:06.000 So I'm like, you know, I didn't have a lawyer at the time.

01:22:09.000 I didn't know what's going on.

01:22:10.000 So I said, okay, I'll do this.

01:22:11.000 And so I write this letter saying, yeah, You know, I probably could have done stuff different.

01:22:15.000 I don't know what the cases were, but probably...

01:22:17.000 So you're saying this without even have reviewed the cases that they're condemning you on?

01:22:22.000 Absolutely. 0.99

01:22:23.000 How the fuck did you not get a lawyer? 0.98

01:22:24.000 I did afterwards, but I didn't know because I'd been a straight-laced ethical guy my whole life. 0.98

01:22:29.000 So when you did afterwards, did the lawyer go back and look at that confession or whatever you would call it and say, well, this is preposterous because you're not even talking about a specific case?

01:22:39.000 Well, she said it was probably something he shouldn't have done and I wouldn't have counseled you, but this guy was on the committee that condemned me, right?

01:22:45.000 So this is a guy that's on there.

01:22:46.000 So they set you up.

01:22:48.000 In some ways.

01:22:49.000 You don't want to say that because you still want to be a doctor.

01:22:51.000 Well, so this is...

01:22:54.000 So, basically, they take this committee, right?

01:22:56.000 And they hand this report that says all this bad stuff, and they hand my confession, right?

01:23:00.000 And this is basically what they have to go on.

01:23:03.000 No one knows anything about the cases.

01:23:05.000 And this is all these people that are doctors, but they're not surgeons, right?

01:23:08.000 All they are is, it would be like if you were reviewing MMA guys.

01:23:12.000 Like, say you want to kick somebody out of the UFC because you said his performance isn't up to snuff, and you went to a bunch of tennis players and golfers.

01:23:18.000 And said, hey man, we don't think he has his takedown percentage sucks. 0.94

01:23:23.000 So these people have no frigging clue, right? 0.95

01:23:26.000 They have no clue about what I do.

01:23:27.000 And they don't have specific cases to go on.

01:23:29.000 And they have no specific cases.

01:23:30.000 And I'm not allowed to talk about this, because I don't know the specific cases.

01:23:33.000 For a railroad job.

01:23:36.000 So then I kind of come out of this haze and I look and I said, we'll give you a fair hearing.

01:23:42.000 This is what they call it.

01:23:42.000 Federal law requires us to give you a fair hearing, right?

01:23:47.000 So I get a lawyer, and this is expensive as shit.

01:23:50.000 I don't have any income anymore, so I'm spending all this money on lawyers' fees, and the hospital just drags out, and they won't release records for like six months. 0.97

01:23:58.000 So six months goes by. 0.98

01:23:59.000 I'm in here, I got four small kids, I'm like, Fuck am I going to feed my kid? 0.99

01:24:03.000 My kids are in school. 0.99

01:24:04.000 I want an autistic son.

01:24:05.000 It needs therapy.

01:24:06.000 And you know, this is tough, you know?

01:24:08.000 So I'm going through this stuff.

01:24:09.000 So six months go later, and then I finally get the cases, right?

01:24:12.000 And I start looking through the cases and what the guy wrote.

01:24:15.000 And not only are there errors, There are egregious errors, and there's multiple of them, and they're just horrible.

01:24:21.000 I mean, they're just so wrong.

01:24:23.000 I mean, that's why I said the guys are senile or drunk.

01:24:25.000 I'll give you a couple examples, and any orthopedic surgeon that's listening to us will know immediately what I'm talking about, but I'll try to make it make sense for other people.

01:24:32.000 So of these 12 cases, two of them were something called a reverse shoulder replacement.

01:24:36.000 So what happens is, you know, if your shoulder wears out, you can replace your shoulder, right?

01:24:40.000 You did shoulder replacements on people?

01:24:41.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:42.000 What do you put in there, like some sort of an artificial joint?

01:24:45.000 Yeah, so this is what I'm talking about.

01:24:47.000 So normally it's a ball and socket joint, right?

01:24:49.000 So there's something called a reverse shoulder replacement, which you basically switch it around.

01:24:52.000 You put the ball where the socket was and the socket where the ball was, which sounds totally crazy, right?

01:24:57.000 This was developed in France in the 80s, and then the FDA approved this in 2004. So 2004 was approved in the U.S., and originally it was approved for one reason, right?

01:25:06.000 If your shoulder is totally arthritic, you know, real bad arthritic, and you don't have a rotator cuff anymore, and it's completely gone, right?

01:25:14.000 So that's what it was first approved for.

01:25:16.000 But over the years, over the next five, ten years, people started using it for all these other things and getting really, really good results with it.

01:25:22.000 So if you come in there with a blasted apart shoulder that's crashed and broke and you're an older person, people do that all the time.

01:25:28.000 And so that's what I did.

01:25:29.000 I basically put a reverse shoulder in a person that broke their arm.

01:25:32.000 I did this twice.

01:25:34.000 And not only did the patient do well, I mean, the patient was happy as can be.

01:25:37.000 They're great.

01:25:38.000 They're like, and no one knew what the outcomes of these patients were.

01:25:40.000 This patient is happy as can be.

01:25:42.000 But the guy writes, because he's old, I think, or drunk, or doesn't know the new record.

01:25:46.000 He hasn't read literature in 10 years.

01:25:47.000 He writes, he put it in backwards.

01:25:48.000 No, he puts, it's not indicated for the student.

01:25:50.000 The only reason to do it is for an arthritic guy with a...

01:25:54.000 Missing rotator cuff, but he doesn't know that over the last 10 years, all kinds of different reasons to use it.

01:25:58.000 So he basically tells this committee he's doing the wrong operation when anybody today knows that that's not the case, right?

01:26:05.000 So there's another case.

01:26:06.000 No, it's okay.

01:26:07.000 We don't have to keep just going over case after case.

01:26:09.000 It's going to get a little dragged out.

01:26:10.000 I know, I know.

01:26:11.000 But where does it stand right now?

01:26:13.000 So basically what happens is, so they dragged us out for a year and a half, right?

01:26:18.000 And they finally, you know, and at the end, you know, I tell you, because they, I got to tell you this part.

01:26:24.000 I go through, this is important, I go through and compile all these cases, right, and get all the data to refute this and pull all these references and textbooks and all this stuff, and I'm like, this is a walk in the park, right?

01:26:34.000 I'm going to, you know, anybody that sees this in their right mind is going to see that they screwed up and there's all these errors and it's wrong.

01:26:41.000 So in discovery process, you send all this information in, and then they realize that, wait a minute, there's a lot of errors in here.

01:26:48.000 So now they have to pick a hearing officer, right, who's like the judge, right?

01:26:52.000 His word goes, they pick another, they get another search, they give me a list of surgeons to choose from.

01:26:57.000 They say, you can have any of these guys you want.

01:26:59.000 And I look through the list, and there's one guy, you remember that group that I was competing with?

01:27:03.000 He's in that group.

01:27:04.000 And I'm like, I don't want him, because he's on the other group.

01:27:07.000 And they said, no, he just retired.

01:27:09.000 And we're going to make you use him.

01:27:12.000 Right?

01:27:12.000 So they pick the judge and then on top of that they pay him.

01:27:16.000 Oh, great.

01:27:16.000 So they're paying this guy, right?

01:27:18.000 So they review all this stuff, and I've got this stuff, and I'm going through case after case where I'm like, the patient was doing great.

01:27:24.000 They didn't get hurt.

01:27:25.000 There's nothing wrong with them.

01:27:26.000 And the lawyers from the other side are like, well, you can't do this no harm, no foul stuff.

01:27:30.000 I'm like, what are you talking about?

01:27:33.000 Everybody's doing great.

01:27:34.000 But he's like, well, I think you could have done something different or something like that.

01:27:37.000 And they're like, if you look at a malpractice case, the first thing you have to do is prove harm.

01:27:40.000 If no one gets hurt, there's nothing there.

01:27:42.000 And it's not that no one got hurt and no one did.

01:27:45.000 But it's just like, so the guy at the end of it goes through and he says, yeah, there were a lot of errors, right?

01:27:50.000 And they're paying this guy.

01:27:51.000 And they chose him.

01:27:53.000 But I think you gave patients too much choice in their care.

01:27:57.000 Which is, I'm like, what are you talking about?

01:28:00.000 So the criticism was that?

01:28:02.000 That's all they had after the errors?

01:28:04.000 No, he said it was really bad errors, and they said you gave patients too much choice, and you didn't document stuff as well as you should have, right?

01:28:12.000 And I still think that they should have just suspended you.

01:28:14.000 So this is a decision they make based on that.

01:28:17.000 And I will guarantee if anybody was on that committee that knew me, because those people that knew me on the committee knew I was a good guy.

01:28:22.000 They never had problems with me, so that's why they were shocked when this came out.

01:28:25.000 But if they knew that information, I'm 100% convinced that would be a difference.

01:28:29.000 So where does it stand?

01:28:30.000 So then, you know, I get done with that, and then the state gets involved, because the state has to respond to any complaints.

01:28:35.000 So the state gets this complaint, the state of New Mexico.

01:28:39.000 And it's kind of weird, because my next-door neighbor is on the state board, and I'm just, like, totally avoiding the guy, because I don't want to influence anything, right?

01:28:44.000 I'd be giving them flowers.

01:28:46.000 No, but I just didn't want to do that.

01:28:47.000 And I even told them, I said, hey, my next-door neighbor is on your board, right?

01:28:50.000 So I want to be totally ethical about this.

01:28:52.000 This is the story.

01:28:53.000 So I, you know, they said...

01:28:54.000 Actually dudes don't like flowers.

01:28:55.000 Yeah, or maybe give them an elk steak or something like that.

01:28:58.000 So then the board gets this and they say, hey man, this is a bad recommendation and we're going to give you two options.

01:29:04.000 You can suspend your license.

01:29:06.000 You can voluntarily surrender your license.

01:29:09.000 Or you can go to trial.

01:29:11.000 We can do another hearing, which is probably going to take a year.

01:29:14.000 It's going to cost you tons of money, which I'm just tired of this.

01:29:18.000 I'm tired of lawyers spending all this money and I'm still trying to figure out how am I going to feed my kids.

01:29:23.000 So then, you know, the state says, or what you can do is we'll send you to a place that will evaluate you independently, and then if everything goes well, we'll give you a license back.

01:29:30.000 So I said, okay, that's what I'm going to do, because I'm tired of this.

01:29:33.000 I don't want to spend $100,000 and wait a year when I can go to this place and spend $12,000.

01:29:38.000 And get evaluated and go from there.

01:29:40.000 So that's where I was this week.

01:29:41.000 In fact, I was in Denver meeting with these other surgeons, and they were just like going through all these case, case, case.

01:29:45.000 What would you do?

01:29:46.000 What would you do?

01:29:46.000 And I am clearly, you know, even though I haven't done this stuff in two years, I'm clearly convinced that they're going to say, hey, man, you're fine.

01:29:54.000 And they're going to say, here, go operate with somebody for two or three months.

01:29:57.000 Are they allowed to look at those cases where you were judged upon poorly?

01:30:00.000 They're not.

01:30:01.000 They're not.

01:30:01.000 They're not because they wanted to be totally independent.

01:30:03.000 Fucking insane. 0.97

01:30:03.000 So how do you make a living now? 0.97

01:30:07.000 I'm living off my savings.

01:30:08.000 You know, I saved up some money, so I'm living off that, and that's mostly it.

01:30:12.000 You know, so I'm just kind of slowly watching my savings dwindle down.

01:30:15.000 Jesus Christ, that's got to be stressful.

01:30:17.000 It's kind of stressful.

01:30:18.000 I mean, you know, I've got a girlfriend who makes a good living, but, you know, I don't want to be, you know, but I've got kids, so we've got kids.

01:30:23.000 I've got a kid with her, and I've got three kids with my ex-wife, and they're all young kids, and so I'm back, and so I said I'm traveling back and forth.

01:30:29.000 Oh, man.

01:30:29.000 Back and forth, you know, trying to support these kids.

01:30:31.000 You know, I had to pull my kids out of school.

01:30:33.000 I had to put them in a different school because the income wasn't there anymore, So it's kind of a pain. 0.96

01:30:38.000 It kind of sucks.

01:30:39.000 So where does it stand as far as getting your license reinstated? 0.94

01:30:42.000 Yeah, so probably...

01:30:43.000 So just in Denver, they said it'll take about eight weeks.

01:30:47.000 So they'll give me a plan.

01:30:49.000 They'll say, okay, we think that, you know, and I am almost 100% convinced they're going to say, you know, we need you to go work with some dude for a couple months because you're out of practice.

01:30:58.000 And I think I'll probably end up doing that.

01:30:59.000 Then the board, the state board, will review what they say.

01:31:02.000 And as long as they say, hey, man, you know what you're doing, They'll give it back to me.

01:31:06.000 So...

01:31:07.000 Insane.

01:31:07.000 Yeah.

01:31:08.000 So anyway, it's, you know, it's, again, I don't blame the state board.

01:31:11.000 I don't blame the people who are on the committee because they were clueless.

01:31:13.000 I didn't know.

01:31:13.000 I blame some incompetence by the administrators, you know, and just whoever reviewed me, you know, if it were caveman times, Joe, I'd go with a big club and like, what the F? Right.

01:31:24.000 No, I understand.

01:31:25.000 Man, that's very disheartening, but it's, I have a friend who's going through a very similar type situation who was also a surgeon.

01:31:36.000 I think people need to understand that the medical business is in fact a business.

01:31:41.000 We think of hospitals as being these completely egalitarian places that exist to heal people and to do the best job.

01:31:52.000 They sort of do, but they also need to make a lot of money.

01:31:55.000 Well, they've got to pay the light bills.

01:31:56.000 I mean, I understand that.

01:31:58.000 But then there's a point where, you know, it's kind of like you've got to make a decision between patient care and, you know, and the CEO making a little extra money.

01:32:07.000 No, they do that with animals, too.

01:32:08.000 I mean, you've got to be really careful.

01:32:09.000 I had a friend who had a recent situation happen with his dog.

01:32:12.000 Where they were telling him his dog needed to get some crazy surgery and he didn't have the money for it.

01:32:18.000 And he's like, are you sure?

01:32:20.000 Are you sure they need it?

01:32:21.000 And he said, I had to ask them over and over and over again.

01:32:23.000 And he said, and finally the veterinarian said, well, we could try a steroid on the dog and see if that works. 0.99

01:32:31.000 Fucking fixed it 100%. 0.99

01:32:32.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:32:33.000 And the steroid cost like $150 versus some $30,000 surgery.

01:32:37.000 But they kept pushing the surgery, which would have fused the dog's discs.

01:32:41.000 They were like, this needs to happen, need to do this.

01:32:43.000 And he's like, there's no other options.

01:32:46.000 We've exhausted all possible options.

01:32:49.000 And then finally, after asking over and over and over again, she suggested meekly this, which instantly fixed it.

01:32:57.000 So within like two months, the dog was 100%.

01:33:00.000 I know you hit Chris Kresser on here a while ago, and I listened to a little bit of his stuff, and his premise at the beginning, which I haven't read his book yet, but I think it's great.

01:33:06.000 I mean, here's a problem with Western medicine.

01:33:09.000 We are facing this, I mean, it's like a war against chronic disease.

01:33:14.000 It's like we're being invaded by Remember Independence Day?

01:33:17.000 Yes.

01:33:18.000 And doctors, we got BB guns. 0.92

01:33:20.000 I mean, the stuff we are shooting at them doesn't work for chronic disease.

01:33:24.000 Now, acute stuff is different.

01:33:25.000 There's some stuff that we have this wonderful technology, but the run-of-the-mill diabetes and obesity.

01:33:30.000 Doctors are great for fixing broken joints, broken bones.

01:33:33.000 Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

01:33:34.000 But even like arthritis that I saw every day, If we were trained properly in nutrition and exercise, that's what I've done my whole life.

01:33:42.000 I know what I'm doing exercise-wise.

01:33:44.000 But if we were allowed to do that, and instead of training all these radiology technicians and blood draw technicians, And nursing assistants.

01:33:54.000 If you had an army of preventive people, preventive medicine people, you know, and we train all these people to go into people's homes.

01:34:02.000 You know, I think Chris was talking about that.

01:34:04.000 And just get the crap out of their diet and show them how to be healthier.

01:34:07.000 You know, I mean, you would save...

01:34:10.000 You know, it's funny watching the politicians debate about health care, how to fund it.

01:34:13.000 You know, it's like, you guys are arguing about the Ticantanic as it's coming up in the iceberg, and you're arguing about the color of the deck chairs.

01:34:21.000 I mean, we are going over a cliff, and we're not fixing it by keeping putting, you know, Band-Aids.

01:34:26.000 You're not going to...

01:34:27.000 Right.

01:34:27.000 The technology's not going to fix diabetes.

01:34:31.000 Nutrition is.

01:34:32.000 Yeah, you're essentially dealing with the problem when it's already gotten to a point where you're in the hospital.

01:34:36.000 Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, like I said, there's a guy, Peter Atiyah, I don't know if you know who he is, but he talks about when he was a surgeon, he felt like he was at the bottom of a building and somebody's throwing eggs off, and his job is to catch the eggs.

01:34:48.000 Oh, God.

01:34:48.000 Right?

01:34:49.000 And he's like, why don't we just have the guy stop fucking throwing down eggs? 0.99

01:34:52.000 But that's what medicine is. 0.99

01:34:53.000 You're just catching the eggs. 0.99

01:34:54.000 And so instead of that, we should be investing, you know, we talk about prevention, but it's bullshit. 0.98

01:34:58.000 We don't do anything for prevention. 0.95

01:35:00.000 It's so little.

01:35:01.000 And then the problem, the problem is a lot of it is it doesn't work the way we've designed it, you know?

01:35:06.000 Yeah, there's a lot of money in fixing you, and there's not a whole lot of money in telling you to eat well.

01:35:12.000 No, there's not.

01:35:13.000 There's not at all.

01:35:13.000 But it is a changing climate, though, because of people like Chris Kresser and Rob Wolf and Dr. Rhonda Patrick and a lot of others.

01:35:23.000 They're giving out really good nutrition advice, and people are changing the way they eat and think about food, and it's having a massive effect on the inflammation that they carry in their body.

01:35:32.000 I know so many people that used to have joint pain.

01:35:35.000 A great example is the Primal Kitchen, Mark Sisson's book, which is fantastic.

01:35:45.000 And his story, Mark's story about having his own inflammatory issues with his hands, he had some pretty severe arthritis that he thought was just going to be with him forever.

01:35:53.000 He changes his diet, reduces all the refined carbohydrates, goes on this protein, high-fat diet, and it all goes away.

01:36:02.000 I mean, there's so many examples of that.

01:36:05.000 And I just watched this documentary called What's With Wheat?

01:36:07.000 And it's all about glyphosate in the wheat, Roundup, and how when they say it's safe for people to consume, they say, well, it only affects plants and bacteria.

01:36:19.000 They're like, well, what about your microbiome?

01:36:21.000 Your microbiome is filled with bacteria.

01:36:23.000 You're killing that stuff.

01:36:24.000 Like, we don't think of that as being an issue.

01:36:28.000 You know, we don't think of Sedentary lifestyle as being an issue when it comes to the ultimate cause for you to wind up in the hospital needing surgery.

01:36:38.000 But it absolutely is.

01:36:39.000 No, it is.

01:36:40.000 I can tell you one of the things I used to see, because when you're a surgeon, somebody comes in with bad arthritis and you replace their knee and they feel better for a while, You're like, oh, that's great, man.

01:36:48.000 I really helped this person.

01:36:49.000 Then they come in next year and their other knee is all jacked up, and then they replace that.

01:36:53.000 Well, you should have just done something so they didn't need surgery any other time.

01:36:59.000 Yeah, I've had conversations with people that their dad needs an artificial knee, and I'm like, are you sure?

01:37:05.000 Yeah.

01:37:05.000 Are you sure?

01:37:06.000 Like, yeah, he's limp and bad.

01:37:08.000 I mean, he really can't take it anymore.

01:37:09.000 Like, have you exhausted all possible options?

01:37:11.000 Like, what have you done about the diet?

01:37:13.000 Oh, he's not into that.

01:37:14.000 Oh, he's not into that.

01:37:16.000 Well, here's the problem, because no one's demonstrated that diet works, but I will tell you...

01:37:20.000 Well, no one's demonstrated it in terms of, like, scientific...

01:37:24.000 Right, but I will tell you that, you know, just...

01:37:26.000 I told you now, because I'm a freak, because I'm just eating meat, and I'm doing this athletic stuff, and everybody says, you're an outlier, you're a genetic freak, whatever.

01:37:34.000 You're an N equals one. 1.00

01:37:35.000 So we made this website called N equals many.

01:37:37.000 Me and this other Air Force guy, that he's also a carnivore.

01:37:39.000 We got this thing, and we said, well, what if people...

01:37:41.000 Started gathering this information together, and we could start documenting that.

01:37:45.000 That's what we did.

01:37:46.000 So I put out a survey on Twitter.

01:37:48.000 I said, hey, how many of you guys would be willing to go 90 days and just eat a bunch of steaks?

01:37:52.000 And I had like 400, and I didn't have that many followers, but I had like 400 people.

01:37:55.000 Yeah, we'll do it.

01:37:56.000 That's amazing.

01:37:56.000 So we put, you know, we developed this website, and it's called n-equals-many.com for people who want to see.

01:38:02.000 So we developed this website, and then we start getting these first group of...

01:38:05.000 N-equal sign or E-Q... No, E-Q is spelled.

01:38:07.000 I don't think you can put N-equals on a... 1.00

01:38:09.000 On a website.

01:38:10.000 N-E-Q-U-A-L-S-Manny.com. 0.85

01:38:14.000 So we do this, and we get all these people that sign up, and we ended up having about close to 100 people just do 90 days of just eating meat.

01:38:23.000 And again, there's a lot of scientific root things you can criticize about this.

01:38:27.000 You know, it's just guys eating meat.

01:38:29.000 Anecdotal study.

01:38:30.000 Anecdotal study.

01:38:32.000 When we got done, and I've got the results, we're still analyzing the data because we're all doing this for free.

01:38:38.000 We're trying to get people to help us analyze the data.

01:38:42.000 But of these 100 people, there's about 85 actually.

01:38:46.000 Of these people, we asked them, what happened to your general health?

01:38:49.000 What happened to your sexual health?

01:38:50.000 What happened to your exercise capacity?

01:38:51.000 What happened to your GI health, your skin?

01:38:53.000 We asked all these questions.

01:38:56.000 There was maybe 1% where they said it got worse, 99% got better, much better, or say the same.

01:39:03.000 So it was just like unanimously everybody got pretty much either the same or the same.

01:39:07.000 Is it possible that there's some bias in that group because they're following you?

01:39:11.000 Absolutely.

01:39:12.000 I mean, I'm well aware of that.

01:39:13.000 But it's interesting.

01:39:15.000 But then we're getting some lab data, because I know you like about lab data.

01:39:18.000 So I get people, and I don't have access to all the data, and I didn't want to have access to the data.

01:39:22.000 I don't want to bias myself against it.

01:39:24.000 So I'm getting fed the data, and I'm seeing that people's blood pressure is normalizing.

01:39:29.000 People's hemoglobin A1C, which is measured glucose, is normalizing.

01:39:33.000 People's inflammation markers are normalizing.

01:39:36.000 You know, all these markers of disease are normalizing.

01:39:39.000 Are going in the right direction.

01:39:41.000 You know, we're just seeing good stuff, you know, because a lot of the people will say meat causes diabetes, meat causes hypertension.

01:39:47.000 See, the only time I've ever seen meat causes diabetes is in that wacky What the Health documentary, which has been widely disproven.

01:39:53.000 You know, we had on it, we wrote a whole piece about that, debunking that and like how much stuff in that is like fake science.

01:39:59.000 Like what they're saying about meat causing diabetes, there's no evidence of that.

01:40:03.000 Yeah, I mean, they use some associational stuff, and that's all they ever do.

01:40:07.000 I mean, it's like some associational stuff.

01:40:08.000 Yeah, but they're putting it out as if it's 100% factual and sounding the alarms, like this is what's causing diabetes.

01:40:14.000 It's meat.

01:40:15.000 Meanwhile, they're completely ignoring the consumption of all these refined carbohydrates these people are eating with the meat.

01:40:21.000 Yeah, I mean, 100%.

01:40:22.000 I mean, that's totally true.

01:40:23.000 I mean, you know, so one of the things that's so nice about studying these people that are just eating meat, I mean, you isolate.

01:40:29.000 That's the only variable you've got to isolate.

01:40:31.000 So we know what happens when you're just eating meat.

01:40:33.000 Now, are they allowed to take supplements during the time?

01:40:35.000 Yeah, we had some.

01:40:36.000 What we said was...

01:40:38.000 They have to document it?

01:40:38.000 Yeah, we had them document stuff, and some of them did some, you know, it was kind of like one of those things where we, because we'd never done this before, and we made them document all kinds of stuff, and a lot of people, some of the people initially dropped out because we made them document too much stuff, like it's too much of a hassle, like you can record all this stuff.

01:40:52.000 So we had certain percent that dropped out because they just didn't want to document stuff.

01:40:55.000 We had a certain percentage that dropped out because they felt like they had a low energy, right?

01:41:00.000 And so a lot of people, when they do this, they just can't eat very much.

01:41:03.000 I mean, they get full, and they're not eating enough.

01:41:05.000 And so that's one of the biggest things I tell people when they switch over to this.

01:41:08.000 Eat meat like it's your job.

01:41:10.000 That's why I tell them, you've got to eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, initially.

01:41:13.000 But shouldn't they just eat until they're not hungry anymore?

01:41:14.000 Well, the problem is you...

01:41:16.000 The problem is a lot of people lose weight on this.

01:41:18.000 A lot of people get lean on this stuff is that your hunger goes down pretty low because you're eating a lot of fat and you eat a lot of protein.

01:41:25.000 Especially if you're eating ribeye steaks, that's probably about 70% fat, 30% protein, something like that.

01:41:32.000 It's really, really satisfying.

01:41:35.000 You know, they tend to under, because no one's used to, like, if I told you Joe, go eat four pounds of meat a day, you're going to be like, well, I mean, I know you like eating meat, but I mean, even that's probably a big task.

01:41:44.000 It's a lot.

01:41:45.000 It's a lot, you know, and so to get used to that, it takes a while.

01:41:48.000 You know, it depends on your activity level, because I work out pretty damn hard, and I do it pretty often.

01:41:54.000 So, I mean... 1.00

01:41:55.000 You do some crazy shit, man. 1.00

01:41:56.000 That's how your box jumps. 1.00

01:41:57.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:41:58.000 I mean, you know, this is, like I said, this is, you know, back to that glycolytic stuff I do.

01:42:03.000 I mean, I'm, you know, I'm...

01:42:05.000 My capacity to exercise was great.

01:42:07.000 You felt no difference?

01:42:09.000 I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you felt no difference between going from the ketogenic diet to eating meat, or did it feel like you had more energy?

01:42:17.000 I had more energy.

01:42:18.000 I had better libido.

01:42:20.000 You wake up every day, you're ready to go.

01:42:24.000 You know, I've had a couple people that, and I haven't tested this, but I've had a couple people that have done this, and again, we need to get more data.

01:42:29.000 I've had a couple people that have done it that said their testosterone level went up.

01:42:31.000 You know, they went on all meat, their testosterone went up about 20%.

01:42:34.000 And so I was like, well, that's interesting.

01:42:37.000 You know, I don't put a lot of faith in just a couple anecdotes.

01:42:40.000 But that happens to a lot of people that go on the ketogenic diet because the cholesterol is actually the precursor for testosterone.

01:42:45.000 Sure, absolutely.

01:42:46.000 It's kind of interesting, if you look at red meat consumption in the U.S. since about 1977, so red meat has gone down about 30 to 40 percent.

01:42:54.000 Really?

01:42:55.000 Yeah.

01:42:55.000 We used to eat way more in the 70s.

01:42:57.000 We ate about 30 to 40 percent more red meat than we do now.

01:43:00.000 No kidding.

01:43:01.000 Yep.

01:43:01.000 And also our testosterone levels have dropped significantly.

01:43:04.000 Population testosterone levels have dropped.

01:43:07.000 About that same amount.

01:43:08.000 I thought people ate a lot of red meat.

01:43:10.000 I would have never imagined we eat less now.

01:43:12.000 We ate way less than we used to.

01:43:13.000 Wow.

01:43:14.000 Yeah.

01:43:14.000 So there's another interesting fact.

01:43:16.000 Hong Kong, right?

01:43:17.000 Hong Kong right now, if you look up, if you Google Hong Kong life expectancy, they live the longest out of anybody in the world, right?

01:43:25.000 They eat about 40% more red meat than we do in the U.S. And they have the longest lived people in the world, which is interesting.

01:43:33.000 Yeah, I'd read something that said that 100% of all people that live over 100, no, it was some high number of all people that live over 100 consume red meat.

01:43:44.000 Yeah, I don't doubt it.

01:43:45.000 You know, it's interesting because, you know, I know the vegans really like to point out Okinawa, it's a blue zone and they eat a lot of vegetables.

01:43:50.000 They looked at the people that lived over 100 in Okinawa, none of them were vegetarians.

01:43:55.000 All of them ate meat.

01:43:57.000 Yeah.

01:43:58.000 There's not a lot of good solid evidence that being a vegan is a solution to a long life.

01:44:04.000 Well, I mean, you know, obviously there's different propaganda out there.

01:44:07.000 And I think, you know, here's what I'd say.

01:44:09.000 You know, if you want to do veganism and it makes you healthy, fine.

01:44:11.000 Most people can't do it.

01:44:13.000 I mean, we know that about...

01:44:14.000 Right, but the thing is we're not just talking about if you want to do it.

01:44:18.000 We're talking about people that are proselytizing.

01:44:20.000 Like, they have this idea, and they push this idea down everybody's throats.

01:44:23.000 But if we're just looking at the actual data, the health data, like what's good for you and what's bad for you, there's no, like, overwhelming evidence that the vegan way is the way to go.

01:44:34.000 No, there's not.

01:44:34.000 I mean, there are studies they like to push, but there's also studies that show the opposite effect.

01:44:39.000 If you look at the Epic Oxford study, which had about 60,000 people in it, they showed that vegetarians and vegans live no longer than meat eaters.

01:44:46.000 There's no difference, right?

01:44:47.000 Even though the meat eaters are probably the guys that don't care about their health, true.

01:44:51.000 So not only is it not protective, but it may be a negative.

01:44:54.000 You can look at a study out of Australia that looked at 240,000 people called the 45 and up study.

01:44:59.000 Same thing.

01:45:01.000 Vegans, vegetarians, no lever, no longer life, no better health. 0.91

01:45:04.000 So it's kind of like, you know, who do you believe?

01:45:07.000 And these guys have their studies that they're going to quote.

01:45:08.000 And I can cherry pick all day, and other people can cherry pick all day.

01:45:12.000 It's just BS. So my best advice is, and this is, I think, the best advice you can give anybody.

01:45:18.000 You know, until we start seeing dudes walking around that are in shape and jacked at 120 years old, you're not going to know what the right thing to do is.

01:45:26.000 And so the best advice you can have is to...

01:45:29.000 Get strong, get healthy, you know, move well, do everything you can to make your health good, and that's the best you can do, because if you're healthy today, odds are you're going to be healthier tomorrow.

01:45:38.000 So, you know, the fact that, you know, Joe, you've still got a lot of muscle on you at 50 means you're more likely to have someone you're 60. I mean, there's just no doubt.

01:45:45.000 That's the biggest correlator.

01:45:47.000 One of the best predictors of long life is your exercise capacity.

01:45:51.000 And I think we should bring this up while we're talking about vegan diets versus other diets. 0.79

01:45:54.000 If you have a standard American diet of even eating a bunch of shitty food and fried chicken and bullshit and cheeseburgers and sodas and you go vegan, you will be healthier. 0.93

01:46:05.000 Sure, of course you will. 0.99

01:46:05.000 Because you're going to remove all that shitty processed food out of your diet, all the nitrites, all the stuff that's unnecessary, all the preservatives. 0.99

01:46:12.000 If you do that, you will be healthier.

01:46:14.000 But it doesn't necessarily mean the vegan diet is the way to go.

01:46:18.000 I mean, it just, it means that the American diet that everybody, like, rightly criticizes is the wrong way to go.

01:46:25.000 Vegan diet's certainly better than that.

01:46:27.000 Yeah, I mean, you can do about any diet's better than that.

01:46:29.000 I mean, you know, it's like in a lot of things, you know, this is another point I bring out, you know, because one of the differences between what I sort of think is healthy, and I'll come out and say, I don't know for sure.

01:46:39.000 I'm still learning this stuff, but I'm willing to investigate it.

01:46:42.000 You know, I'm willing to put my body to the test and have other people, you know, give me data.

01:46:47.000 But there's a big group out there that says you shouldn't eat a lot of protein.

01:46:50.000 You should really restrict your protein.

01:46:52.000 There's some data that talks about something called mTOR that maybe it causes cancer.

01:46:58.000 Maybe it inhibits longevity in these lesser animals like mice and little tadpole nematode things and bacteria.

01:47:06.000 And then there's another group of scientists out there.

01:47:09.000 There's a guy named Stuart Phillips out of Canada that's looking at that.

01:47:12.000 And it shows that the more protein you have, especially when you get older, the The longer you're going to preserve muscle, the better your quality of life is, and likely the longer you're going to live.

01:47:21.000 What happens if you autopsy an old person?

01:47:25.000 If you go to an old folks home, their brain has shrunk. 1.00

01:47:29.000 Their muscles have shrunk in a way.

01:47:30.000 The protein in their bones have shrunk in a way.

01:47:32.000 Their kidneys have shrunk.

01:47:33.000 Their heart has shrunk.

01:47:34.000 Their skin has shrunk.

01:47:35.000 Everything's shrunk because it's lost all this protein.

01:47:38.000 What happens is, as you get older and older, you lose some of the capacity to digest meat.

01:47:43.000 What happens is, where does your body get that protein from?

01:47:46.000 It just starts taking it from yourself.

01:47:48.000 You start auto-cannibalizing yourself to sustain function, to sustain cellular function.

01:47:53.000 So if you're not getting that replaced through a diet, and meat is an outstanding source of that, you're going to be frailer and frailer.

01:48:02.000 We have an obesity epidemic, but we also have a frailty epidemic.

01:48:05.000 There are people that are just...

01:48:07.000 I mean, by the time they're 40, they may be obese, but they're weak as can be.

01:48:11.000 Yeah, there's so many people that just...

01:48:12.000 Sedentary lifestyle is one of the biggest killers of your body, for sure.

01:48:15.000 And there's so many people that you look at.

01:48:16.000 I'm like, I was talking to a guy the other day, and it looked like you could just grab his arm and pull it off his body.

01:48:22.000 Like, his shoulders were sunken.

01:48:25.000 There was, like, no muscle tone at all.

01:48:26.000 He had no exercise.

01:48:28.000 There was none in his life, ever.

01:48:30.000 Like, maybe they made him do gym in high school, and that was it.

01:48:33.000 And he just...

01:48:35.000 He's younger than me, and he was falling apart.

01:48:37.000 You and I at 50 are like, the bar for a normal 50-year-old is way down low, and we're like total outliers.

01:48:46.000 Just the fact that we exercise and have a little muscle, that puts you in the 99th percentile right there.

01:48:51.000 And it's interesting if you just continue it.

01:48:53.000 The thing about it is, if I take a week off, man, boy, do I feel it more at 50 than I did at 30. It's crazy.

01:48:59.000 That's true.

01:49:00.000 But I could still get back in shape.

01:49:02.000 And once you get back in shape, you just got to keep it going.

01:49:05.000 And if you just keep it going, it will work for you.

01:49:09.000 What we compare, it's really interesting.

01:49:12.000 Because what we compare in terms of normal body function, like the normal capacity that your body has, we're really generally looking at people that are just the average person.

01:49:22.000 Well, the average person doesn't really exercise very hard.

01:49:25.000 So we don't have a lot of data on people that are in their 50s that still go, you know what, I'm not letting this go. 0.99

01:49:31.000 I'm gonna keep this fucking body strong. 0.98

01:49:32.000 I'm gonna make sure I lift heavy weights. 0.99

01:49:35.000 I'm gonna do hard cardio.

01:49:36.000 I'm gonna do sprinting and kickboxing and a bunch of shit that requires explosive energy.

01:49:41.000 And if you do that, your body can stay vibrant. 0.88

01:49:44.000 But you have to be diligent.

01:49:46.000 It's very important for people to understand this. 1.00

01:49:48.000 If you're just a casual person who just kind of like half asses, oh maybe I'll take a spin class, good luck bitch. 1.00

01:49:55.000 Your body's gonna die. 1.00

01:49:56.000 It's gonna rot off and fall apart.

01:49:58.000 But if you just decide to be militant about this, you can keep a functional body far longer.

01:50:05.000 It's not just about ego.

01:50:06.000 It's also just about the use of your meat vehicle. 0.99

01:50:09.000 Like, my body can do a lot of shit that most people's bodies can't. 0.96

01:50:12.000 Like, if I want to pick something up, I don't have to call somebody. 0.98

01:50:15.000 I just pick it up.

01:50:16.000 Just that alone.

01:50:18.000 To know that you can carry yourself.

01:50:20.000 To know that you can do 50 chin-ups.

01:50:23.000 To know that you can move your body around in a way that most people find to be almost impossible.

01:50:28.000 It's like, I want my body to work better.

01:50:30.000 You know, it's like having a race car and you can choose what horsepower engine it is based on how much work you put on it.

01:50:37.000 I mean, that's essentially what your body is.

01:50:39.000 You can choose how much tread you have in your tires.

01:50:41.000 You can choose how good the suspension is, how supple it is, and how well it can maneuver based on how much plyogenic exercises you do or how many different explosive maneuvers, you know, clean and presses and things along those lines.

01:50:54.000 You can get that body to work right.

01:50:55.000 Yeah, I think that, you know, if you look at animals in the wild, right, you know, if you're looking at a pack of animals getting hunted, which one's going to get killed?

01:51:02.000 Which one are they going to pick out?

01:51:03.000 The frail.

01:51:04.000 The slow, weak one, right?

01:51:06.000 The old one.

01:51:06.000 So, if you're a human, and we don't get hunted by lions, but if you're a human, if you say, you know, when was my peak athleticism?

01:51:13.000 You know, maybe 25, maybe 30, you know, somewhere in there, 33, 35, somewhere in there, that's like your, that's your top performance for most people.

01:51:19.000 Yeah.

01:51:20.000 The closer you can maintain to that ability as long as you possibly can and do whatever it takes to get there, the farther you are away from death.

01:51:27.000 I mean, that's just simple nature.

01:51:29.000 You know, the slow, the weak, they get eaten, they die, they get diseased, they become disabled.

01:51:33.000 I don't want to be, you know, I'm 50 now, I don't want to be a 60-year-old guy that's walking around, limping around, you know, needing assistance, somebody to, you know, lift my groceries for me.

01:51:41.000 And that's what we have.

01:51:42.000 Or even a woman.

01:51:43.000 I mean, women should be out there, strength training, getting stronger, swinging heavy kettlebells. 1.00

01:51:47.000 And that's the other thing that you brought up, explosiveness.

01:51:49.000 Because I think we're finally starting, you know, we finally went away from jogging, right?

01:51:54.000 You know, we went from the 1960s to the early 2000s.

01:51:58.000 Everybody's jogging.

01:51:58.000 That's what you do for health.

01:51:59.000 Then people started discovering strength training.

01:52:02.000 So now we get people that are in there lifting a little bit.

01:52:04.000 But I think what you also have to do, and this is something because I've got this little training system that I'm helping people with.

01:52:10.000 But I think you have to do the explosive work, too.

01:52:13.000 I get in there with medicine balls. 0.99

01:52:15.000 I take medicine balls and I try to break the fucking things. 0.99

01:52:19.000 I throw them as hard as I can. 0.99

01:52:21.000 I'm jumping.

01:52:22.000 Like I said, I'm jumping with a vest on.

01:52:24.000 You know the stuff you have to build up to and it has to be done in a safe manner.

01:52:27.000 I'm sprinting, I'm on an Airdyne bike.

01:52:29.000 Have you been on an Airdyne, Joe?

01:52:30.000 Yeah, I love those.

01:52:31.000 I was going to say, you've got to get one for here.

01:52:33.000 Yeah, we're getting one.

01:52:35.000 Here's what I would tell you to do.

01:52:38.000 There's a company called Octane Fitness that makes an Airdyne X It's probably better than that aerosol bike.

01:52:44.000 Really?

01:52:45.000 Yeah.

01:52:45.000 Pull that up.

01:52:46.000 Octane.

01:52:46.000 What's it called?

01:52:47.000 Octane Fitness?

01:52:48.000 Octane.

01:52:48.000 Airdyne X? Airdyne X. What's better about it?

01:52:51.000 It's just solid.

01:52:53.000 I mean, it's solid as it can be.

01:52:54.000 I mean, and it's just, it's just, you just, you know, in my view, you know, because I've done everything training.

01:52:59.000 I mean, I've broken world records on the concept, too, so I know how to do the intense stuff.

01:53:03.000 That Airdyne, those type things are the best thing you can do for those short sprints.

01:53:06.000 I mean, they're so...

01:53:06.000 There is right there.

01:53:07.000 Yeah, they're so metabolically...

01:53:10.000 Demanding.

01:53:10.000 I mean, I don't know if they charge.

01:53:12.000 I mean, I think they're...

01:53:12.000 The only thing that I've always had reservations about is, like, the sitting down part.

01:53:16.000 As far as what?

01:53:17.000 Well, I feel that, like, you would get more exercise if you're supporting your body weight.

01:53:21.000 Well, I mean, you know, I don't...

01:53:22.000 You know, there's a skier.

01:53:23.000 You can do stuff like that.

01:53:25.000 Right. 0.98

01:53:25.000 But, I mean, if you get on that thing and you go as hard as you fucking can for 30 seconds or a minute. 0.98

01:53:31.000 A minute's even worse. 0.98

01:53:32.000 Every time I do it for a minute, I feel like I'm literally gonna drown.

01:53:35.000 I'm gonna die.

01:53:37.000 Here's what I do.

01:53:38.000 I call these things chainsaw intervals. 1.00

01:53:40.000 So I tell people, pretend there's some fucking maniac with a chainsaw. 1.00

01:53:43.000 It's gonna cut you off. 1.00

01:53:46.000 You gotta go as hard as you can.

01:53:48.000 I don't have that at home.

01:53:50.000 I've got the regular air down version. 0.98

01:53:52.000 I keep breaking the damn thing because I go too hard. 0.96

01:53:54.000 It's just not strong enough. 0.97

01:53:55.000 But when I go to the commercial gym, there's a guy that they just made that.

01:53:57.000 They had me doing that.

01:53:59.000 There's another MMA guy that Man, I can't remember his name, but he was like a pride champion guy, like pride six or seven that won it.

01:54:06.000 And he's at the gym I'm at sometimes in Southern California.

01:54:09.000 But I mean, that thing is, you know, just try, I'm sure those guys would come up here and let you demo it, you know, and just get on there and go, you know.

01:54:16.000 And this is the thing I talk about when I talk about high-intensity interval training.

01:54:19.000 You know, a lot of people, They don't get the high intensity part.

01:54:23.000 They'll do Tabatas where they'll go 90%, 100% of the first one and by the time the third one they're down to like 60% because the rest intervals are too short.

01:54:31.000 So I'm like, man, go like somebody's gonna kill you for 20 seconds and then rest three or four minutes and then go again because then you keep hitting that high intensity.

01:54:39.000 That's what I do with exercise when it comes to weight lifting.

01:54:41.000 I take big breaks now.

01:54:43.000 I used to, for weightlifting, I used to do, like, I used to try to burn myself out.

01:54:47.000 Go to failure, short, like if I get 30 seconds break, all right, come on, next set, next set.

01:54:52.000 I don't do that anymore.

01:54:53.000 Yeah, the problem with that is you're just tired.

01:54:55.000 That's not what you're training at the time.

01:54:56.000 Now, there's a time to do the training.

01:54:58.000 You know, like I said, you know, when I break it up, when I tell people how to train, I'm like, look, you train it for explosivity.

01:55:02.000 That's the only thing you care about.

01:55:04.000 You don't get tired because you're going to, you're going to, You're not going to be tense enough.

01:55:08.000 The same thing with the sprinting.

01:55:09.000 The same thing with the lifting.

01:55:10.000 Give yourself enough of a break so that you can focus and do what you need to do. 0.99

01:55:14.000 Then when it's conditioning time, then you can go get tired and do that shit. 0.99

01:55:17.000 Do it with light weights. 0.99

01:55:19.000 That's one of the problems.

01:55:20.000 I think CrossFit...

01:55:22.000 There's a lot of good elements to there.

01:55:24.000 I mean, there's a lot of people that do well with it. 0.96

01:55:25.000 But some of the exercises they pick, you know, like when you get tired doing snatches, the odds of you getting fucked up are high. 0.98

01:55:31.000 Very high. 0.91

01:55:32.000 So I tell people, do something that's, you know, it's hard and it's tiring.

01:55:37.000 And when you get tired and your form breaks down, you're not going to get hurt.

01:55:39.000 You know, so you may do medicine ball slams. 0.99

01:55:41.000 But if you're jumping up and down on a box and then you fuck up, now your shin's bloody. 0.98

01:55:45.000 You know, what's the point of that? 0.99

01:55:46.000 So, you know, I just have a...

01:55:48.000 Battle ropes are a great one for that, too.

01:55:50.000 There's no consequence to being too exhausted.

01:55:52.000 Exactly.

01:55:53.000 I think that's the way to do that.

01:55:54.000 I've been training now for almost 40 years.

01:55:57.000 Joe and I haven't taken a week off.

01:55:58.000 I've taken a week off.

01:55:59.000 I'll take a week off.

01:56:00.000 The same thing with you, I know.

01:56:01.000 As you take too much time, you just don't feel good.

01:56:03.000 That's the other thing about this diet.

01:56:05.000 My recovery capacity is huge.

01:56:08.000 I can train super intense every single day without a break, which is kind of nice.

01:56:14.000 The other thing that I get people telling me all the time is, you know, they're...

01:56:17.000 I mean, they're hitting PRs on deadlifts.

01:56:19.000 They're doing all this stuff.

01:56:20.000 Personal record for non-athletes.

01:56:22.000 Yeah, I'm sorry.

01:56:24.000 I'm sorry.

01:56:24.000 I'm not used to, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

01:56:26.000 But I mean, it's like, you know, I get these people all the time.

01:56:28.000 They're like, man, I'm hitting push-up records, chin-up records.

01:56:30.000 My deadlift went up 100 pounds in three months from...

01:56:33.000 From just eating meat and stuff like that.

01:56:34.000 So I think there's something to it.

01:56:36.000 I mean, I have people that are telling me, my dad, I put my dad on this diet, right?

01:56:39.000 He's 74 years old.

01:56:41.000 Two months into the diet, he goes, hey man, this is the biggest my biceps ever been in my life.

01:56:46.000 And he's just eating meat.

01:56:48.000 That's crazy.

01:56:48.000 So he's like, he's just putting on muscle just because he's taking in so much animal tissue.

01:56:52.000 Well, listen, man, keep us posted on this.

01:56:54.000 Keep me posted on like how your, you know, your own personal journey's gone and whatever evidence that you collect with other people.

01:57:01.000 And I'm very curious.

01:57:02.000 I'm curious about this.

01:57:03.000 I might give it a try for one month.

01:57:04.000 Yeah, here's what I'll tell you, Joe.

01:57:05.000 So January is World Carnivore Month.

01:57:08.000 Oh, Jesus.

01:57:09.000 So we're trying to get as many people.

01:57:10.000 We can get thousands of people on there.

01:57:12.000 Just give us your data at nequalsmany.com.

01:57:14.000 Just do a month.

01:57:14.000 It's World Carnivore Month.

01:57:15.000 There's instructions on how to do that.

01:57:17.000 And just submit your data.

01:57:18.000 So are you allowed to eat anything else?

01:57:20.000 Yeah.

01:57:20.000 So I tell people you can eat meat, eggs, dairy, cheese.

01:57:24.000 You can drink coffee, stuff like that.

01:57:26.000 But just no vegetables for a month?

01:57:27.000 No fruits and vegetables for a month.

01:57:29.000 No plants for a month.

01:57:30.000 You can put a little seasoning on it.

01:57:31.000 I'm going to give it a chance.

01:57:32.000 I'll give it a chance.

01:57:33.000 I'll try...

01:57:34.000 I'll try some month.

01:57:35.000 One month.

01:57:35.000 I don't know if I can do January.

01:57:37.000 I'll try to find a month.

01:57:38.000 Tell me if you need help.

01:57:40.000 Thanks, brother.

01:57:40.000 Appreciate it.

01:57:41.000 That was great.

01:57:42.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - December 07, 2017

Joe Rogan Experience #1050 - Dr. Shawn Baker

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