In this episode, Dr. Kelly talks about the dangers of Bisphenol A (BPA), a chemical found in plastic bottles and other products, and how it can affect a baby s brain development. She also discusses the potential link between BPA and other chemicals in the environment, and the impact it can have on a child's brain development and development. We hope you enjoy this episode and share it with a friend or colleague who needs a good night's rest! If you have a question or would like to suggest a topic for our next episode, please e-mail us your suggestions and we'll get them on the show! Thanks again for listening and Happy New Year! xoxo, Caitlyn and Molly Thanks to our sponsor, for sponsoring this episode! Thank you so much to Caitlyn for being our sponsor and for making this podcast possible! Caitlyn is a pediatric infectious disease physician, and Molly is a registered dietitian, nutritionist, and holistic health care provider. We are so grateful for all the support Caitlyn has been showing us around the world and we can't thank her enough! We can't wait for you to listen to this podcast! - Caitlyn's podcast, and we hope you do too! Please leave us a rating and review our podcast review and review it on Apple Podcasts! if you have any questions or comments about our podcast recommendations! and/or suggestions for future episodes, please leave us in the next episode! Thank you! <3 Caitlynn is looking forward to having a good time :) - please leave a review! . . . -- Caitlyn & Molly is looking out there! -- Thank you Caitlyn s podcast is out there :) Caitlyn Caitlin s podcast: . , and Molly s podcast : : . , , and her podcast & her podcast is ... , & ( ) ) . (Thank you, Caitlin's podcast: ) . ( ) , ) , , & , etc., thank you, and etc., etc., and ) , etc. , all of your support is so much love, etc, etc. , etc, and much more! etc.. Thank y all so much, etc., so much <
00:00:30.000But he'll say it like he'll lay in his crib and say it like when he's ready to get out, you know, of bed early in the morning and I'm like waiting.
00:00:36.000I'm like, maybe I'll go back to sleep.
00:00:38.000Now, being a scientist and having a child, are you cognizant of every single factor that's taking place, like nutrition, all the input, emotional input,
00:01:36.000So, and that's another thing I was thinking about in my hotel today because I was making a coffee with one of those paper cups that has the plastic lining.
00:01:46.000And like, I don't know what's in the plastic lining, BPA or some of the BPA alternatives, which have also been shown.
00:01:53.000Bisphenol A. So to answer your question, there's been experiments done that have shown heat.
00:02:01.000So boiling water and putting it in plastic increases the BPA that leaches into the solution, into the water by like 55 fold.
00:02:10.000So yes, definitely heating it up is like way worse.
00:02:13.000And so one of the things I'm always now thinking about is, you know, going to Starbucks, whatever.
00:02:18.000The plastic lining they're putting in those cups when you get your hot tea or your hot coffee, I don't know if there's BPA but there's now studies that have come out and these studies have been done in animals that show like BPS and some of the other BPA replacements also have negative consequences on the endocrine system,
00:02:44.000But there have been studies, at least with BPA, that have shown that you give a person a single dose of BPA and it disrupts their insulin sensitivity.
00:02:52.000It also plays a role in causing problems with in vitro fertilization.
00:02:58.000So it's disrupting hormones and Things like that.
00:03:02.000So I was really cognizant about it during pregnancy because typically we do detoxify it quite well.
00:03:13.000The half-life is like less than five hours and we excrete it through urine.
00:03:16.000It also comes out through sweat, by the way, which is really good.
00:03:20.000But when you're pregnant, for whatever reason, the placenta, you basically take the BPA, it's in your body, and your liver will inactivate it to this more benign compound.
00:03:34.000But when it crosses over the placenta, it gets activated again.
00:03:37.000And so that's why the effects are much more robust always on the developing fetus.
00:03:42.000And so I really made sure I was not drinking anything out of a plastic bottle or anything like that while I was pregnant just because...
00:03:51.000At the end of the day, there's a lot of studies that have been done in animals and just how much of that translate, how significant is it, it's really hard to say.
00:04:02.000It's probably a compounding effect, right?
00:04:04.000With all the other environmental factors, pollution, particulates in the air, chemicals, all the other jazz that we take into our body all the time.
00:04:13.000And then the fact that actually aging bottles, like as you, for whatever reason, as a bottle sits, like if you keep using, for example, the study was done with baby bottles.
00:04:22.000If you keep using a baby bottle and putting liquid in, as the bottle aged, more BPA was leached out into the liquid.
00:05:08.000And, you know, it's just adding another.
00:05:11.000It's like, well, you know, you're going to I've put a lot of energy and time, you know, I spent a lot of time with him doing lots of things and, of course, all the nutrition and all that.
00:07:11.000I mean, and what's a major concern to me is living in major metropolitan areas with the constant pollution.
00:07:21.000I was reading a study that was talking about living in any major metropolitan area like New York City can take many years off of your life.
00:07:29.000Just from living there, it will shorten your life.
00:07:32.000Yeah, I've been reading multiple studies over the years about air pollution and, you know, there's compounds in air pollution that are carcinogens like, you know, benzene and there's also the particulate matter and how these, you know, how air pollution is increasing the risk for stroke,
00:07:51.000And this is like in dose-dependent manners and of course there's all sorts of confounding factors and you can never really show causality, although some animal studies have been showing causality.
00:08:01.000And some of these things are really bad in developing nations that don't have a lot of regulatory regulations on, for example, like automobile exhaust.
00:08:11.000And so some developing countries have children coming down with strokes and stuff like early, like young, teenage.
00:08:18.000So, and this has, of course, been linked to air pollution.
00:08:24.000And then there's all sorts of studies talking about, you know, of course, asthma, but, you know, happiness and brain function and all that, you know.
00:08:34.000So and it's something like I live off of a busy road and then there's noise pollution, which is another I mean, so it's like something that I've been like, really, really aware of and trying to like move out away from busy traffic areas,
00:08:50.000particularly for my son, you know, because I'm just very concerned about the health risks.
00:08:56.000I wonder also the impact of just being in an urban environment and the fact that it's not really natural and that maybe a person who's an adult could enjoy living in Manhattan and decide that they get a thrill out of living in the city, but for a baby to grow up around all that concrete and glass and all these sharp,
00:09:16.000hard edges and right angles, that it's maybe not...
00:09:36.000And, you know, all sorts of measurements of, you know, depressive symptoms are measured after.
00:09:42.000And the ones that did nature run were far better at, you know, basically feeling happier after the run than the people that did in the metropolitan city.
00:10:04.000One of the things about Central Park, when you're in it, you're like, wow, this is weird that this is in the middle of the city, but it's a brilliant move to have this one area.
00:10:11.000I mean, you think about how much that real estate would be worth if they decided just to shove buildings in there.
00:10:16.000I mean, Manhattan is one of the most pricey real estate places on the planet Earth, and yet in the middle of it, they have this big, open, public park area that anyone could just wander around, sit by a tree.
00:10:39.000It's terrible in Manhattan too compared to LA. I think they're probably equally sucky, but the thing that is bothering me is not just the air pollution in terms of like the exhaust fumes and the exhaust and the smells, but also the brake dust.
00:10:57.000You know, when I first started paying attention to brake dust, and I would always clean it off my wheels, but I would never think about it.
00:11:04.000Like, oh, there's dust that's on my wheels.
00:11:07.000I would think, oh, it's just dust on your wheels.
00:11:08.000Then someone was explaining to me, no, that's an environmental hazard that you're breathing in if you live in that environment.
00:11:14.000When you're around, you know, if you're on Broadway and cars are constantly hitting their brakes around you, there's a puff of that brake dust that's getting in the air with every pump of the brakes.
00:11:24.000And you're just taking that disgusting stuff into your lungs.
00:11:27.000Yeah, the particulate matter, the stuff that's really tiny and stuff.
00:11:31.000I mean, because that's like mesothelioma, right?
00:11:33.000You're taking in the particulate matter from like asbestos.
00:11:36.000So you'd think there'd be similar mechanisms, maybe not going to lead to mesothelioma, but that there would be similar mechanisms at play that are like, you know, damaging organs.
00:12:28.000And it's really nice having my mom in particular, because she helps out a lot with my son so that I can get some work done, too, which is important.
00:12:38.000And I really, we could live, you know, a little bit further out.
00:12:42.000I mean, there's there are places like that are still within like 40 minute drive to like, you know, downtown San Diego, beaches and stuff that are that are nice and So that is something that we are considering.
00:12:58.000It's a busy road and there's fire sirens.
00:13:03.000My son likes the fire sirens, but there have been times when there have been loud motorcycles and he is...
00:13:08.000It's like concern like you can see you look on it like it's you know so so it kind of worries me as well but definitely it's it's it's it's important to get away from that it's like a goal for sure now before the podcast started you were telling me that you wrote a 30 page paper on the carnivore diet It's not a paper.
00:14:21.000You know, I think that the most important question really is what is attracting someone to try such a very restrictive diet, you know, that potentially could be dangerous without published evidence or any sort of long-term studies and things like that.
00:14:40.000So I think that the first question really is, well, why are people doing this?
00:14:44.000And so looking on the internet and try to like read about people's anecdotes, it seems as though a lot of people are drawn to it because they have some sort of autoimmune problem.
00:14:55.000And so they try this diet and it improves their autoimmune symptoms.
00:15:01.000And that seems to be a real common theme, at least if you look in the blogospheres and stuff like that.
00:15:09.000So that's, I think, kind of a good place to start where it's like, well, you know, what are people doing this for?
00:15:15.000And then, so that's kind of an important question.
00:15:19.000And so further reading about this diet is sort of It's really important when you have something that leads to an effect to understand the mechanism.
00:15:34.000Because the mechanism is what's leading to this effect.
00:15:38.000And so if you can do something that's potentially not so dangerous or risky, then understanding the mechanism will help you because then you can find other ways to do it.
00:15:46.000And so if you look at published studies on people that eat low-carb, high-protein diets, what's pretty common is that there's changes that happen in a variety of different endocrine factors, like you're less insulin,
00:16:03.000that's changing your satiety and hunger hormones, leptin and ghrelin, and people become more satiated and they actually eat less, and this has been shown in multiple studies.
00:16:12.000So people actually eat less when they're having a higher protein diet.
00:16:16.000Which makes sense too because protein is more satiating as well.
00:16:20.000And also There's also been studies on what's called food habituation, where basically, so habituation is when you're constantly exposed to the same stimulus, you sort of have a decreased response to that stimulus.
00:16:32.000Where there's been intervention trials where people are given the same food every single day, both non-obese and obese people, versus people that are given the same food once a week.
00:16:42.000And the people that are given the same food every single day, they start to eat less calories.
00:16:47.000So they start to eat less, naturally sort of to calwork restrict themselves.
00:16:53.000It's kind of like a dietary monotony sort of thing.
00:16:57.000If you read people out there on the blogs talking about this diet, they say, like, I'm eating less, I only eat twice a day, I'm fasting.
00:17:05.000People are talking about that as well.
00:17:07.000So I think there's published evidence to kind of explain that, and also there's people saying, yeah, I eat less.
00:17:13.000So that's an important point because one thing that's really known to affect autoimmunity is caloric restriction and fasting.
00:17:22.000It's probably one of the most well-known technologies that you can intervene and have improvements in autoimmune disease.
00:17:31.000So some of that has to do with the fact that you can sort of reset your immune system.
00:17:35.000There have been animal studies and human studies, a lot of this done by Dr. Walter Longo at USC. He's done some prolonged fasting in animals, and also there's been sort of like a fasting mimicking diet done in humans, which is kind of a very low-calorie diet that sort of is meant to mimic fast.
00:17:52.000And those have shown that you basically kind of Because fasting is a type of stress, you cross over into this stronger stress response where you're not only cleaning away all the gunk inside the cells.
00:18:07.000People talk about autophagy a lot when they're talking about fasting.
00:18:10.000You clean away things like damaged pieces of DNA, protein aggregates, things like that.
00:18:16.000Mitochondria that are damaged get cleared out.
00:18:18.000But you also sort of start to clear away entire cells through a process called apoptosis.
00:18:24.000And in animal studies, what's been shown is that if you do, for example, a 72-hour fast, you can clear away about 30% of the immune system and replenish it with, like, brand new healthy immune cells.
00:18:37.000And literally, like, organs shrink during the fasting and then they, like, re-expand.
00:18:42.000Because you're activating stem cells and you're, you know, basically replenishing all your damaged old cells with new ones.
00:18:49.000Well, Walter has shown in these animal studies, also autoimmune cells tend to be selectively killed off and replaced with non-autoimmune cells.
00:18:59.000So he's also done a clinical study, a pilot clinical study with people with multiple sclerosis doing this fast and mimicking diet for one month, sorry, for one week.
00:19:17.000So I think that understanding that some of these mechanisms that are at play and that fasting itself and caloric restriction both have been shown to improve autoimmunity.
00:19:27.000You may be tapping into something there by eating less.
00:19:31.000In addition, there's been clinical studies in humans where they were basically fasted for 24 hours every other day for 15 days.
00:19:41.000So they had like a total of seven days of fasting.
00:19:43.000And these were also people with multiple sclerosis.
00:19:47.000And there's profound changes in the microbiome that started happening.
00:19:51.000And this was in line with basically having a lot of anti-inflammatory cytokines, basically producing immune cells that are really important for preventing autoimmunity called T-regulatory cells, so things like that.
00:20:06.000So that's another really important thing to consider is, you know, the microbiome, because the microbiome has been linked to autoimmunity in multiple studies.
00:20:16.000I mean, it's been linked to arthritis, it's been linked to multiple sclerosis, it's been linked to other diseases like Parkinson's, which is not really autoimmune.
00:20:24.000And the point of this is that, you know, again, understanding mechanism and realizing, you know, there's other potential factors that could be leading to an effect, right?
00:20:34.000It's actually, the changes in the microbiome are really important because there's actually been a few animal studies which have led to Phase I, Phase II, and Phase III clinical trials that have been done in humans.
00:20:45.000So, humans with multiple sclerosis were treated with minocycline, an antibiotic.
00:20:51.000And basically, the antibiotic was shown to improve symptoms of multiple sclerosis.
00:20:54.000And because there's good bacteria and bad bacteria that have been linked to autoimmunity.
00:20:59.000And getting rid of bacteria, you know, the bad bacteria, is going to probably lead to improvements.
00:21:04.000And that's what was shown first in animal studies and then in human trials.
00:21:08.000So humans, with multiple sclerosis, taking minocycling for two years.
00:21:15.000It delayed the onset progression of the disease.
00:21:19.000But then after two years, those improvements went away, probably because you're wiping out the microbiome, and eventually you're also getting rid of the good bacteria, and so things are going to catch up, right?
00:21:29.000So you may be getting rid of some of the pathogenic bad bacteria with the antibiotics, but eventually you're also getting rid of good stuff.
00:21:38.000You know, you may not have those same improvements and that's very interesting.
00:21:42.000I think it's a really important point to understand with something like, you know, changes, very profound changes in the microbiome.
00:21:50.000When it comes to someone just eating meat, So one thing to keep in mind with the microbiome is that basically bacteria really are good at adapting to their environment.
00:22:03.000That's why antibiotic resistance is such a big deal.
00:22:06.000And there's been human intervention studies.
00:22:08.000When you take a human that goes from a high fiber diet to a low fiber, high protein, or vice versa, you get changes in their gut microbiome that happen within 24 hours.
00:22:20.000So within an hour, you actually start to have doubling of populations of bacteria.
00:22:24.000And within 24 to 48 hours, you actually start to lose other.
00:22:27.000So basically, other bacteria start to die off.
00:22:33.000The phyla is more linked to long-term dietary patterns.
00:22:36.000Eventually you can change phyla as well.
00:22:38.000But it's been shown that people that go from a more high fiber to a high protein diet, they have changes in their microbiome.
00:22:47.000And these changes are a lot of the microbiome bacteria that are fermenting.
00:22:52.000A variety of fermentable fibers start to leave and you actually start to get bacteria cropping up that ferment amino acids.
00:23:00.000So the amino acids, simple sugars, fats, those are mostly absorbed in the small intestine, but some of them make their way into the large intestine.
00:23:08.000And there's a whole, you know, group of bacteria called the putrefactive bacteria, and they ferment amino acids.
00:23:17.000And some of these species of putrefactive bacteria have been linked to colon cancer.
00:23:23.000They're much higher in colon cancer patients.
00:23:25.000Animal studies have shown, you know, causal links where they can basically regressively cause a polyp to form a, you know, a tumor.
00:23:34.000And that's because these bacteria are making things called putrescine and cadaverine, which are damaging their genotoxic agents that damage the DNA inside your colon cells.
00:23:45.000And so people that are typically eating like an omnivore type of bacteria where they're eating protein and they're also eating fermentable fiber, if they're eating the fermentable fiber that's facilitating the growth of lactic acid producing bacteria, that limits the growth of putrefactive.
00:24:00.000So if you're, you know, bifidobacteria, lactobacillus, S mutans, S thermophilus, those strains of bacteria are lactate acid producing bacteria, which you'd be getting if you're, I mean, you'd be facilitating the growth of if you're eating plants with fermentable fiber, you're going to limit the growth of putrefactive because they can't grow with lactic acid.
00:24:20.000So it's not like, you know, it's not a huge, huge concern.
00:24:24.000But the question is, what happens when you're only eating amino acids, when you're only getting amino acids?
00:24:32.000So if you're if you're if you're killing off potentially some of this pathogenic bacteria, and you're having this effect with a positive effect, what's going to happen long term?
00:24:42.000I mean, this diet, I mean, hasn't really been studied at that level.
00:24:45.000There have been a few people that have anecdotal stories about doing it for 10, 20 years that are online, but it's very difficult to track.
00:24:54.000I mean, you have to take them at their word for it.
00:24:58.000They've eaten nothing but meat for 20 years.
00:25:03.000There may be more out there, but in terms of what I've come across, articles, just social media profiles, people have talked about the positive benefits of it.
00:25:13.000It seems to me that most people that are talking about the positive benefits are talking about it within a one- and two-year window.
00:25:20.000That's what we're really dealing with a lot of.
00:25:23.000Sean Baker, Dr. Sean Baker, who is probably the leading proponent of it, or one of the poster boys of it, along with Jordan Peterson and his daughter Michaela.
00:25:31.000Jordan Peterson and his daughter Michaela, they're different in that they were dealing with severe autoimmune issues.
00:25:37.000His daughters had Two joints replaced before she was 18. Well, she had her ankle replaced before she was 18. I think she had her hip replaced shortly after that.
00:25:51.000Jordan has had some pretty severe autoimmune issues and depression.
00:25:56.000With both of them, those things were cleared up.
00:25:59.000But as you've talked about multiple times before on this show, depression has been linked to disorders in the gut biome.
00:26:34.000Yeah, I think, you know, going back to the point, it's like...
00:26:40.000There are other, you know, understanding the mechanism is important, and there's a lot of potential confounding factors, right?
00:26:46.000And that, with any anecdotal data, is extremely important to consider.
00:26:50.000I mean, people can't even, you know, scientists, nutritionists, just people can't even agree on the best diet, because a lot of these epidemiological and observational studies, which don't establish causation, have an enormous amount of confounding factors,
00:27:06.000and it is It's so hard to control for that.
00:27:10.000I mean, just as a perfect example, we've talked about this before in the podcast, but the vegetarian versus people that eat meat.
00:27:17.000One of the really large studies that was done, and Dr. Valtolonga was part of that study, looked at all-cause mortality and cancer mortality, and it was lower in vegetarians.
00:27:26.000But they decided to take the meat eaters and say, okay, what about within this group?
00:27:31.000The people that are healthy meat eaters are people that are not unhealthy.
00:27:39.000They're not excessively drinking alcohol.
00:27:41.000Those people, when they took out those confounding factors, the meat eaters had the same mortality as the vegetarian and the same cancer.
00:27:49.000So confounding factors are so important.
00:27:52.000And with anything anecdotal, you have people that are exercising like crazy.
00:27:55.000Exercise has also been shown to change microbiome, independent of diet, in a positive way, where you're actually producing more of the bacteria that are producing things like lactic acid.
00:28:07.000And so you have people that are fasting.
00:28:08.000So, you know, it's not like you can't do other things if you're on that type of diet to sort of help with the microbiome.
00:28:14.000But I think, again, if there's a way you can do, you know, if there's a way that you can get these benefits without having to do something so hyperrestrictive, and we'll talk about, I mean, I have concerns for that.
00:28:53.000I mean, so, like I said, in animal studies, and you can't directly translate the animal studies to humans because rodents have a really fast metabolism, and if you fast them for 48 hours, they lose 20% of their body weight, where humans only lose, like, 1% or 2%.
00:29:06.000I mean, that's, like, clearly, you know, yeah.
00:29:10.000Yeah, so you can't, I mean, it's obviously you can't completely translate everything that's done in a fasting rodent to humans, but...
00:29:17.000They're definitely, organs are shrinking and then literally re-growing after the fast is over.
00:29:23.000Like, it's like this rejuvenation process, you know, and it seems as though selectively damaged cells are killed.
00:29:29.000In fact, this whole, like, there's a whole, Dr. Balta Longo showing That cancer cells are really, really susceptible to dying when you do like a prolonged fast or even a fasting-mimicking diet.
00:29:42.000And he's shown this in animal studies and he's done a couple of clinical studies where patients with cancer were treated with standard of care, but before their standard of care treatment they were fasted for up to 72 hours.
00:29:55.000And what happens, what he's shown in animal studies happens is that because the fasting is a type of stress, all your healthy cells increase all these stress response pathways.
00:30:18.000So what you end up happening is that when you're giving another genotoxic stress like chemo or radiation, your healthy cells become more resistant to the damaging effects of the radiation and the cancer cells become more sensitized to the death.
00:30:31.000And so what he's shown in his pilot studies in humans is that basically...
00:30:36.000The humans that were treated with the standard of care, I think it was chemo, and also fasted, they had less neutropenia, which is the loss of neutrophils, which is the side effect because you're losing normal healthy cells.
00:30:49.000They had less of that happening, less myelosuppression.
00:30:54.000Anyways, the point is that I think if you can find a way to get positive benefits, you know, without having to do something so risky and potentially dangerous and unstudied, you know, I mean, unstudied in a really scientific way,
00:31:10.000you know, controlling for confounding factors and all sorts of long term, I mean, just all of that is really important.
00:31:15.000Well, this just comprehensive breakdown that you just did is something that's really lacking from a lot of discussion of this carnivore diet and from the proponents of it.
00:31:24.000It's almost like a lot of them are going into it blindfolded.
00:31:28.000They're like, look, it seems to be working, so I'm just going to stick with it.
00:31:33.000But again, when you're talking about most people's cases, you're talking about one year, maybe two years, sometimes even less, where they're having these benefits.
00:31:44.000And as you're saying, it's entirely possible that they're setting themselves up for some potential long-term damage.
00:33:15.000Well, that was one of the—I mean, I had Jordan's daughter, Michaela, on, who's had some pretty dramatic results from this carnivore diet.
00:33:23.000But she's giving, essentially, nutrition consulting to people.
00:33:28.000But she doesn't really have a background in it.
00:33:30.000And she doesn't have the information that you just distributed.
00:33:34.000Like what you just said to all these people listening and the way you're describing the mechanisms and the benefits of fasting and all these different various things that are happening inside your gut and all these different things that are happening with healthy cells and damaged cells with fasting and that this is mimicked by this restrictive diet and that this is all absent from the dialogue.
00:34:06.000But when they start saying, you know, plants are bad and there's, you know, like my friend Chris, he's always talking about the war on carbs.
00:34:15.000He's also got, Chris Bell, he's got autoimmune issues as well.
00:34:19.000He's had both of his hips replaced before he was 35 and, you know, severe arthritis.
00:34:27.000Leaner than he's ever been and Benefiting greatly from this carnivore diet, but you know he's he's like he talks about like he uses hashtag war on carbs You know and he doesn't eat salad he won't eat greens like he thinks greens are bad for you I'm like man.
00:35:17.000Yeah, I think that is one very strong possibility and that is something, you know, there's lots of hypotheses here and, you know, given all the data and there's lots of positive data about eating plants as well.
00:35:33.000That's one hypothesis and that seems to be the one everyone's sort of gravitating to, you know.
00:35:39.000If someone's also wanting to reduce their glycemic load and all that, I mean, eating just a modified paleo diet, I mean, I eat something like a modified paleo diet where it's like I'm eating fish, I eat meat, poultry, and a lot of leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables.
00:35:57.000Now, you can do nuts, you know, or you can do a ketogenic diet.
00:36:01.000Like I just talked about, the study that was done looking at the fasting-mimicking diet in humans with multiple sclerosis, published in the same paper, there was a study that put patients on ketogenic diet for,
00:36:19.000I believe it was three months, and it improved symptoms of autoimmunity as well.
00:36:36.000And, you know, the micronutrient deficiencies have been a concern, but you can actually eat a lot of vegetables, green, good ones that are low in glycemic.
00:36:50.000I mean, at least there's been lifespan studies in animals.
00:36:53.000On ketogenic diet, where it's like improving, you know, the way they age, it's improving their cognitive function, brain aging, extending their lifespan.
00:37:00.000So, you know, if people are looking for, in addition to, you know, wanting to like help with their autoimmunity issues, you know, there's also if it's like, well, I also just don't want to have a lot of insulin response, I want to lower my glycemic levels and things like that.
00:37:16.000It seems like a much better option than doing something Right.
00:37:42.000People think they're going to get a positive response from something, they can.
00:38:01.000It's basically single nucleotide polymorphisms where it changes in the sequence of DNA in a certain gene, makes it function a little differently.
00:38:08.000Well, the gene that's really important, seems to be really important for whether or not you're going to have a placebo versus nocebo, controls dopamine, the degradation of dopamine.
00:38:17.000So people that are really likely for a placebo response have more dopamine in their brain.
00:38:22.000It's called CompT, the SNP. I think we're good to go.
00:38:42.000I think they have a gluten sensitivity, which I do think that's a real thing.
00:38:46.000I mean, I'm not saying non-celiac gluten sensitivity.
00:38:48.000I think there's enough evidence that showed that does exist.
00:38:50.000However, there was like this great study that was published four years ago showing people that thought they were, you know, having gluten sensitivity issues.
00:39:31.000I think that's a great thing that that exists.
00:39:35.000Especially if you could figure out a way to trick yourself.
00:39:37.000You're changing dopamine levels that affects your immune system.
00:39:41.000I talked to a chiropractor who was banking on that.
00:39:44.000He was doing something called zone healing.
00:39:47.000And the more I pressed him on this, the more he basically said, well, if you believe it, it works.
00:39:51.000I'm like, okay, so you're saying that it doesn't work unless you trick this person into believing that it works.
00:39:58.000So you're a trickster is what you're doing.
00:40:00.000You didn't want to go that far, but that's essentially, there's no real scientific basis to this idea that you press on someone's back and fix their thyroid.
00:40:09.000I absolutely think that placebo accounts for a lot of that stuff.
00:40:38.000Some schizophrenic patients are prescribed a really high dose because their dopamine is lower in the prefrontal cortex and this is sort of associated with a lot of the negative, paranoid, delusional sort of...
00:40:50.000When you say high dose, what are you talking about?
00:40:52.000Oh, like six grams, anywhere between three to six grams a day.
00:40:57.000Well, if you look at, if you're talking about normal in the sense where what's typically used in like a randomized controlled trial, it's like one or two grams.
00:41:05.000What is recommended to people like USDA? Or what would you recommend?
00:41:31.000Is there a concern about potential heavy metal poisonings when you're taking in fish oil or is that all that stuff, do they know how to filter that stuff out?
00:43:37.000I'll put that aside, because I actually have a good friend whose dad has Alzheimer's, and I sent her your clip from your Instagram from yesterday.
00:43:53.000It was just accepted, and it should be out online this month, sometime this month.
00:43:58.000Okay, so my potential concerns with the carnivore diet.
00:44:03.000You know, I think, and I'm sure, I mean, I know this, I've seen it all over the blogosphere, you know, the micronutrients and, you know, they don't really matter.
00:44:13.000The RDAs weren't set for carnivores and all this stuff that I've read.
00:44:18.000But I think to start out, like understanding, you know, micronutrients are essential, about 30 vitamins and minerals that are really important.
00:45:25.000There's balanced studies looking at how much of a micronutrient it takes before you start excreting it.
00:45:31.000There's cross-sectional studies and there's case studies.
00:45:34.000And this is a collaboration between the United States and Canada and some European countries as well.
00:45:39.000So a lot of experiments are done to figure out the recommended dietary allowance.
00:45:45.000The first thing that's done is the estimated average The SEAR, the Estimated Average Intake.
00:45:55.000So that is done by basically looking at any population and going, okay, how much of this micronutrient do we need so that 50% of the population has adequate levels, the other 50% will be deficient.
00:46:06.000So there's a bell curve, and so it's literally in the middle of the bell curve.
00:46:10.000And then the RDA is set from that to standard deviations above, and it's supposed to make about 97.5% of the population gets enough.
00:46:21.000For each micronutrient, it's different.
00:46:23.000The experiments that are done are different to look at them.
00:46:25.000So there's a few concerns, of course, with an all-meat diet, with particular micronutrients, because, you know, micronutrients, there's a lot of, you know, certain micronutrients that are concentrated in meat, and there's a lot that are concentrated in plants.
00:46:39.000You can find some of the ones that are more concentrated in meat in plants in most cases, but it's much better to get it from the meat.
00:46:47.000And in plants, it's much more concentrated, you know, and you can find it in some amounts in meat, but it's much, you know, it's a lot easier to get it from plants.
00:46:56.000So one of the, of course, the micronutrients that's a concern is the vitamin C, of course, right?
00:47:01.000That's the one that everyone talks about.
00:47:05.000Vitamin C is a really important cofactor.
00:47:08.000A cofactor just means that it binds to an enzyme and helps it work.
00:47:14.000It's important for converting dopamine into norepinephrine, which is important for that flight-or-flight response.
00:47:20.000It plays a role in making carnitine, which is important for using fatty acids for energy.
00:47:28.000And then it's, of course, an antioxidant.
00:47:30.000It also plays a really important role in neutrophils.
00:47:33.000So neutrophils are a type of immune cell when they're activated, when you have any sort of bacterial exposure, virus, things that can even come from the gut, you know, like LPS, leak out from dead bacteria that are dying in the gut.
00:47:49.000Neutrophils get activated and they soak up vitamin C because they release a bunch of hydrogen peroxide which damages the neutrophil itself and so the vitamin C sort of prevents that from happening.
00:48:00.000It plays a really important role in cell integrity and things like that.
00:48:05.000So there's a variety of ways vitamin C is transported into the cell and I see reading on the internet a little bit of misunderstanding.
00:48:15.000People following the carnivore diet seem to think that because their glucose levels are low, that they're getting more vitamin C in.
00:48:24.000So vitamin C, also called ascorbic acid, goes between two different states.
00:48:32.000Or ascorbic acid is the reduced form, which is the antioxidant form.
00:48:36.000It goes also into an oxidized form, so it's kind of going back and forth.
00:48:40.000It goes through about four cycles of that.
00:48:41.000The oxidized form is called dehydroascorbic acid.
00:48:44.000And there's two ways that you transport vitamin C. You absorb it through the gut epithelial cells.
00:48:49.000It's transported into a variety of tissues in the body.
00:48:52.000Ascorbic acid goes through sodium-dependent vitamin C transporters.
00:49:00.000That's how vitamin C gets into the cell.
00:49:03.000And most cells actually transport vitamin C in that form, with the exception of red blood cells, which don't have that transporter.
00:49:10.000They use another transporter called glucose transporters or GLUT. And that one does, glucose does compete.
00:49:16.000Interestingly, dehydroascorbic acid binds much better.
00:49:20.000It actually tightly more binds to the transporter than glucose.
00:49:25.000But in conditions like hyperglycemia, like type 1 or type 2 diabetics, they actually don't get vitamin C in the red blood cells and it leads to vascular problems and stuff like that.
00:49:35.000So So it's an interesting hypothesis that maybe if you're having, you know, less of a, you know, blood glucose levels are really bottomed out, maybe that there's some salvage pathway.
00:49:47.000You're able to help get vitamin C and the oxidized form is going in some other cells that usually doesn't go in or whatever, something like that.
00:49:54.000It's an interesting hypothesis, which there's no data on, right?
00:49:58.000But the experiments that were done to choose the RDA for vitamin C were done, the more recent RDA, so that it changed back in like after 2000 or 2001 or something.
00:50:10.000It's about 90 milligrams a day for men and 75 for women.
00:50:14.000They were depletion-repletion studies.
00:50:17.000So men were given about less than 5 milligrams a day of vitamin C with their diet.
00:50:27.000And it was determined that it was kind of unsafe to keep going.
00:50:33.000So basically, they started the repletion, where they started giving these men vitamin C at different doses.
00:50:42.000And vitamin C follows like a sigmoidal S-curve.
00:50:46.000So once you kind of deplete someone of their vitamin C, when you give them, for example, 30 milligrams, it isn't really enough to kind of go, it doesn't really raise plasma levels much.
00:50:56.000You have to get up to like 100. Once you get up to like 100, then you actually start to excrete vitamin C. But before that, your body's holding on to everything.
00:51:06.000200 milligrams was maximum bioavailability.
00:51:09.000And then after that, you start to decrease bioavailability and you're excreting a lot of vitamin C. So the scientists that published this paper, Mark Levy at the NIH, recommended that the RDA be set at 200 milligrams, but it was set at 90,
00:51:25.000which is literally right before you start to excrete, which was at 100 milligrams.
00:51:29.000That data, along with the neutrophil data, there was some neutrophil data that was looked at, you know, how much vitamin C was important to, because neutrophils sop it up, to prevent that hydrogen peroxide-induced damage.
00:51:40.000And so that's kind of how the RDA was set.
00:51:44.000Now, the question is, with any RDA, like, you know, the important thing to consider is, well, the RDAs are set to prevent acute disease, but what about promoting optimal health?
00:51:58.000Like, how much of these micronutrients do you need throughout a lifespan to, you know, to maintain optimal health and age well?
00:52:05.000So this is something that's really important because a lot of enzymes that require a micronutrient for preventing short-term disease, something that can kill you, there's also enzymes that are required to prevent things that are associated with aging, like DNA damage.
00:52:21.000So if there's only so much of a micronutrient around, where is it going to go?
00:52:25.000Is it going to prevent DNA damage, which doesn't make a difference until five or six decades later?
00:52:31.000Or is it going to make sure you live on to pass on your genes and reproduce?
00:52:36.000So my former postdoctoral mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames, sort of proposed this whole, and he has published a couple of foundational papers supporting this idea, which he calls triage theory.
00:52:48.000So he's saying that basically He thinks actually a lot of RDAs are too low and that optimal RDAs will account for how much is needed for these long-term functions.
00:52:59.000So that's really important to consider.
00:53:00.000With the vitamin C, you know, it's really a small amount that's needed to be used as a cofactor for, you know, an enzyme for collagen production.
00:53:15.000Studies were done years and years ago that established like 10 milligrams of vitamin C was enough to prevent scurvy, which can happen when you basically don't have enough vitamin C for collagen production.
00:53:27.000And even that's kind of questionable because back at the time when those studies were done, it was before really good analytical assays were available.
00:53:35.000So the assay that was done to measure various things, lots of things could confound.
00:53:47.000So, you know, that is something to consider, as well as the fact that basically there's a lot of biological variation with vitamin C requirements.
00:53:56.000And this has been shown in other animals that also require vitamin C, like guinea pigs.
00:54:01.000So, like, if you take 100 guinea pigs, and this is, you know, this was published back in, like, 60s or 70s, like, there was, like, tenfold variation in how much each of them required vitamin C they required, even though they were given, like...
00:55:49.000And you think that a lot of these issues could be prevented with just multivitamin supplementation?
00:55:55.000Well, I think the best thing is to get it from food.
00:56:01.000There's another one that's potentially risky and that is vitamin E. Vitamin E helps recycle vitamin C and vitamin C helps recycle vitamin E. And vitamin E actually Most people think of it as an antioxidant, which it does.
00:56:14.000It prevents a lot of oxidative chains.
00:56:17.000It kind of breaks the chain of oxidation.
00:56:19.000But it also is really important for maintaining cell integrity.
00:56:22.000And that's how the RDA was chosen for that one.
00:56:40.000It damages our DNA. It also damages the lipids in our cell membranes.
00:56:46.000And so vitamin E plays a really important role in the integrity of it.
00:56:51.000And so the experiments that were done for choosing the RDA for vitamin E were two and a half years long, and men were given three milligrams of vitamin E. So the RDA is 15 milligrams, so they were given three.
00:57:06.000And after two and a half years, they started getting hemolysis of their red blood cells because the membranes of the red blood cells weren't being maintained very well.
00:57:28.000And so when they did the repletion studies, it was actually 12 milligrams for the EAR, and they went up two standard deviations and found basically the RDA was at 15. So the question becomes, well, all right, so vitamin E, you can, you know, you can get some vitamin E if you're getting some egg yolk and butter and if you're eating some fish,
00:57:47.000but you're not going to, it's really hard to get 15 milligrams from those sources.
00:57:51.000And then if you're eating that, what about all the other stuff you have to eat to get your other, you know?
00:57:57.000Nuts are really, really the best source.
00:57:59.000Like almonds, like 100 grams of almonds would give you your RDA. Really good source.
00:58:06.000So the question becomes, well, okay, what happens if I'm only getting 7 milligrams a day?
00:58:14.000Is it going to take 6 or 7 or 8 years before my cell membrane integrity is compromised more?
00:58:22.000So there's a lot of important questions to think about.
00:58:27.000These RDAs, I would even argue they're set too low in some cases where they're really trying to just prevent things that are like hemolysis of the red blood cells.
00:58:38.000So what about all these other long-term effects?
00:59:18.000You know, polymerases and stuff are cruising along DNA and see it and they make a nick in the DNA and it literally, you know, it's a nick.
00:59:25.000It's like in your DNA. And if you have it, DNA is double-stranded.
00:59:29.000So if you have it on two ends of the DNA, which you do because it's really important to make one of the nucleotides, thymine, then, you know, you're going to have a double-stranded break.
00:59:37.000And actually, my former postdoctoral mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames, published a study showing that if you take animals and make them deficient in folate or give them really, really low levels of folate, It causes strands in their DNA just like being irradiated.
00:59:53.000And then he published a study that was with humans showing that actually humans that are getting really low levels of folate also had a certain type of DNA damage called micronuclei.
01:00:05.000You know, so the question is, well, You know, if I'm getting only so much folate, you know, is it something happening to my DNA? Am I getting strand breaks?
01:00:36.000There was a few years ago, a startup tried doing it, but it's really hard because there's, if you're sending blood samples, you know, to a lab to be tested for DNA damage.
01:00:48.000I have done many DNA damage experiments on humans, so clinical studies.
01:00:54.000And I've done studies, kinetic studies, where we took blood out of a patient, measured DNA damage immediately or froze it down or we let it sit on a bench for 30 minutes, 2 hours, 4 hours, overnight.
01:01:04.000After 2 hours, all the tons of DNA damage started to come up because it's being exposed.
01:01:09.000The oxygen and all that is creating basically DNA damage.
01:01:24.000We have enzymes that are repairing that damage and those enzymes require magnesium.
01:01:29.000We're getting enough folate to make sure that that damage isn't happening.
01:01:32.000And again, you can get a good amount of folate.
01:01:34.000Liver is one of the best, is a really great source.
01:01:36.000But you have to eat it every day and you have to eat like, you know, I guess 150 grams of liver is not that much, but you have to eat it every day.
01:01:44.000So it's just really important to consider the fact that these micronutrients are important.
01:01:51.000I mean, the two and a half years it took to show the hemolysis in red blood cells, Two and a half years.
01:01:57.000So what happens if you're getting a modest amount, not quite three milligrams, but you're getting twice that, or maybe you're getting nine?
01:02:03.000You know, what happens seven years from now?
01:02:09.000So I think that, so those, you know, and there's a variety of other manganese you can also get if you're eating a lot of, like, stomach lining tripe.
01:02:26.000And especially if the people are working a job where they go into office nine to five or they're traveling, it's really hard to eat all this.
01:02:47.000Vitamin C, when you cook it, 25% of, you know, it's lost.
01:02:52.000So that's why a lot of the muscle meat and stuff, it does start out with vitamin C, but when you cook it, I mean, if you're not eating it raw, then, you know, you're definitely, it's negligible.
01:03:01.000There's one young guy who is a carnivore diet proponent that seems to be approaching this in a much more comprehensive way.
01:03:08.000He's really big on organ meats, in particular liver and many other things, and he's talking about how these organ meats will be excellent sources of a lot of the vitamins that people are concerned that you're missing from vegetables.
01:04:49.000Also, there's bacteria in the gut that can be pathogenic and that use iron, but it seems to be only in supplemental form.
01:04:57.000I'm not saying you should never supplement.
01:04:59.000I mean, I supplemented iron throughout my third trimester, but I just think that you're going to potentially run into more problems with that.
01:05:08.000But iron does, it does come from red meat, correct?
01:05:27.000But that's not what we're talking about.
01:05:29.000So I think, you know, there's also other important reasons to eat.
01:05:35.000The plants instead of doing just the organ meat and also just doing the supplements as well.
01:05:39.000You know, and some of those, the reasons have to do with the fact that microbiome is really important.
01:05:44.000So you're getting, you know, the fermentable types of fiber that are really important for, you know, growing all sorts of commensal bacteria in the gut.
01:05:50.000Like, we don't know what's going to happen with, you know, someone that's only just eating meat long term, particularly with, like I said, the putrefactive bacteria and all that.
01:05:58.000That's just the word, putrefactive bacteria.
01:07:28.000So we have these, basically all these pathways that are activated when we eat plants and from certain compounds in plants, insect anti-feed-ins.
01:07:48.000I see a lot of people on this carnivore diet talking about how they're so bad for you.
01:08:00.000If they would take the time to actually read studies, like human studies, where people are given a lot of these insect anti-feedant compounds, things like isothiocyanates, like sulforaphane, curcumin, resveratrol, anthocyanins, and there's tons and tons of them.
01:08:16.000You know, they would see that there's beneficial effects that happen and there's a lot of mechanism for why that is.
01:08:21.000You know, so, I mean, the sulforaphane is one that I like to talk about.
01:08:25.000And there is tons and tons of human intervention data where people are given either cruciferous vegetables or they're given broccoli sprouts.
01:08:34.000Broccoli sprouts are a really great source.
01:08:50.000Very great scientist, does a lot of research on sulforaphane.
01:08:54.000But, you know, if you look at intervention trials, we were talking about air pollution.
01:08:58.000Like, there's an intervention trial, there's more than one, in humans, showing that if you give humans broccoli sprout extract for seven days, they start to excrete benzene and acrolein, benzenes in air pollution.
01:09:14.000And that's largely because sulforaphane activates a variety of enzymes, one called phase 2 detoxification enzymes, which are important for getting rid of potentially harmful compounds.
01:09:25.000It inactivates phase 1 biotransformation enzymes, which are enzymes that are able to take a pro-carcinogen and turn it into a carcinogen.
01:09:34.000So, you know, there's intervention trials in humans that it's, you know, men that were given broccoli sprout extract lowered their biomarker for prostate cancer by like 86% or lowered the doubling rate of it by 86%.
01:09:49.000You know, so this is like, this is important.
01:09:52.000There's studies showing that humans given, for example, two different studies showing that humans given 300 grams of Brussels sprouts a day We're good to go.
01:10:31.000It's like, you know what else is going to do that shit?
01:10:33.000Heterocyclic amines from the cooked meat you're eating.
01:10:35.000So if you dump something at a high enough concentration, yeah, it's going to fuck it up.
01:10:42.000But we're talking about humans ingesting.
01:10:44.000If you were to exercise nonstop and not rest, it would be toxic.
01:10:47.000If you were to fast and not stop, it would be toxic.
01:10:51.000Like, you know, so how some of these pathways are working is that the dose that they're given, you know, eating, it's almost impossible to eat the kind of dose that it would take to cause severe damage.
01:11:32.000Like, this is a possible therapeutic intervention.
01:11:33.000It's been shown to randomize placebo-controlled trials to improve autistic symptoms in adolescents.
01:11:38.000Open-label trials, it's been shown to improve autism in children.
01:11:43.000I mean, there's just study after study after study, and I'm just talking about the human ones, and there's more.
01:11:48.000There's also lots of animal studies where they're feeding them mega doses, and there's like positive benefits.
01:11:53.000There's been studies, you know, feeding humans large doses, like something equivalent to like 70 or 100 grams of broccoli sprouts, which have a lot more sulforaphane than like Brussels sprouts do.
01:12:04.000And there was no toxic side effects in the liver, thyroid.
01:12:09.000If you have hypothyroid, sulforaphane can compete with iodine for transport into the thyroid.
01:12:13.000I don't think that's usually an issue.
01:12:16.000It certainly doesn't seem to be an issue in healthy people.
01:12:18.000But, you know, iodine is found in seafood.
01:12:21.000I mean, you know, there's sources of iodine you can eat.
01:12:24.000So maybe someone with hyperthyroid might want to make sure they're not eating like tons.
01:12:29.000Like you're not like, you know, kale smoothie after kale smoothie after kale smoothie.
01:12:32.000Like, you know, make sure, you know, just if you're having your Brussels sprouts with your elk meat or whatever, you know, I don't think it's a problem.
01:13:07.000There's one, there's a real cursory examination of data, and then there's confirmation bias, and the combination of the two of those things.
01:13:14.000They find one thing that sort of kind of vaguely supports what they want it to support, and then they run with it and they talk about it as if they're experts.
01:13:22.000Yes, and this is one of the reasons why I'm so happy that you're talking about this because you can give people a real comprehensive understanding of all the different things at play.
01:13:32.000And one of the things that I get from you when I talk to you about nutrition is it's mind-boggling how many different factors are going on simultaneously in the human body when it comes to nutrition, Absorption in the various stages of the body and how it can vary with different people.
01:14:46.000There's this weird push, and you know, if you look under hashtag meat heals, there's all these people, you know, telling these stories about how they lost all this weight, and they did all this this, ba-ba-ba, and their health benefits, and da-da [...]-da, but they only want it to be because of the consumption of meat only.
01:15:06.000They think that it's because of the singular aspect of their diet and the fact that they've eliminated everything else, but they're not They don't do any studying of elimination diets.
01:15:16.000They don't do any study of the prolonged benefits of fasting and all these different things that you're talking about, which I think are...
01:15:23.000These are all factors in this really complicated thing that's going on that most likely has something to do with their gut biome and their immune system.
01:15:43.000It's just important to approach this like a science, you know, and not like a religion, like you said, where you want to believe something.
01:15:51.000And so you just find, you know, this study that I also see circulating around that why plants are really bad to eat.
01:16:00.000The insect anti-nutrients or pesticides.
01:16:02.000It's from my former mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames, who spent his entire career advocating micronutrients from vegetables and from meat and from fish.
01:16:12.000But if you actually read the paper, Not only does it say it doesn't, you know, these insect anti-feedants like sulforaphane don't cause cancer, but it also has a whole section on heterocyclic amines from cooked meat.
01:16:26.000So if you really want to use that paper as an argument, why to not eat plants, then maybe read the paper and realize, oh, it's also talking about heterocyclic amines as well.
01:16:36.000The point of the paper was like, I'm getting a little emotional.
01:16:41.000You're getting out of your robot self.
01:16:43.000The point of the paper was basically not to worry about some of the amounts that you're being exposed to with some of these natural insect anti-feetants that are found in plants.
01:16:53.000And some of the cooked things in meat, as well as some of the pesticides that are found, synthetic pesticides, basically that they're in such small amounts.
01:17:01.000So that was kind of the point of the paper was back in the 90s.
01:17:05.000But I just think that it's a little, I don't know, hypocritical to use a paper, you know, as like, and literally, it's like, I mean, it's like proliferated everywhere.
01:18:17.000Why would you want to eliminate a massive source of bioavailable nutrients?
01:18:23.000And then when they're talking about the negative consequences of consuming vegetables, that there's different sort of toxic elements, I do remember you talking about how these stressors can actually have a positive and beneficial result when your body reacts to these stressors.
01:18:41.000Yeah, that's exactly how exercise works.
01:18:44.000It's exactly how heat stress from the sauna works.
01:18:46.000And it's how these phytochemicals, I'm calling them phytochemicals just as like a generic category, but they're compounds that are made by plants to ward off insects.
01:18:58.000And we evolved eating them and they activate acidity.
01:19:02.000Amazing stress response pathways in humans, in our brain, in multiple, in blood cells.
01:19:07.000I mean, it's just human intervention trials showing this.
01:20:17.000A gi is a kimono, this white or, you know, multicolor.
01:20:22.000You could wear it different colors now, but they start out with white.
01:20:24.000And a lot of people learn their jujitsu grabbing onto the gi, you know, like sort of a judo gi or, you know, karate gi, and utilizing it as part of the grappling technique.
01:20:39.000And what no gi is, they use rash guards, they don't grab the clothes, and they concentrate on control of the body with underhooks and overhooks and gable grips and things along those lines.
01:20:48.000And it became a religious battle between gi and no gi.
01:20:52.000And I remember sitting there watching this, and it was a problem.
01:20:55.000Because people would get angry, like, what camp are you in, bro?
01:21:03.000I think there's benefits to both of them.
01:21:04.000But there was this weird thing where you were supposed to choose sides.
01:21:09.000It's since alleviated and people realize how preposterous it is.
01:21:12.000But for a long time, like for years, the jujitsu community was split, where people were angry at people who wore the gi, or angry at people who wore no gi.
01:21:22.000Like my friend Eddie, Eddie Bravo, who teaches no gi, people were angry at him for teaching a system of jujitsu that didn't involve a certain type of clothing.
01:21:39.000And I'm seeing this with this carnivore diet.
01:21:41.000And I think there's a psychological aspect to it that you were talking about in terms of this placebo effect that I think they feel like, I've never felt better.
01:22:00.000And then there's also, well, if you are doing this as opposed to the standard American diet, I think you have the same sort of response that you have when people are talking about the positive benefits of the vegan diet.
01:22:12.000I think if you have a vegan diet in comparison to eating chips and fries and soda, yeah, you're going to feel fucking amazing.
01:22:20.000And people talk about it, too, just like they do the carnivore vegans.
01:23:10.000It's hard for me because what knocks me out, ironically, what knocks me out of ketosis, most of my diet is fairly ketogenic except I eat too much meat.
01:23:51.000Me and my friend Bert Kreischer, my friend Tom Segura and Ari Shafir, for the month, we have to see who burns the most calories and gets the most MEPS. This is my zone thing.
01:24:03.000And I'm planning on killing those guys.
01:24:05.000I'm planning on literally having them try to die.
01:25:12.000I think this is a very important conversation to have because I think there's a lot of people that are enticed by the magic of this carnivore diet.
01:25:19.000I'm so happy that you are the one, because you can do it in such a scientific manner, and just sort of illuminate all the various problems.
01:25:29.000Sort of explain why they are experiencing these benefits.
01:25:32.000Because even brilliant men like Jordan Peterson is a brilliant guy.
01:25:36.000He's just accepting the positive benefits of this and I don't know how far he's looked into this.
01:25:41.000Yeah, you know, and also it's important like the fact that the nocebo thing I think we're good to go.
01:26:42.000I mean, the microbiome does change depending on your diet.
01:26:44.000And, you know, if you're eating a low-fat and then going to a high-fat diet, you know, you're making bile acids and things like that.
01:26:51.000And, you know, if you don't have a microbiome that are resistant to that, you can start to have the microbiome being killed off and then it can cause inflammation.
01:26:57.000You know, going from the plane, I mean, you're basically selecting for if you're eating a bunch of protein, you've got a lot of putrefactive bacteria, maybe less of the other.
01:29:05.000And my in-laws have been doing, they've done like a couple of three, three and a half day fasts, and they're getting all sorts of massive improvements in a variety of biomarkers, you know, lipid and glucose and inflammation.
01:29:17.000You know, a lot of things that I know carnivore people are talking about as well, but could be getting the same thing with fasting.
01:29:22.000And when you're doing this, are you limiting the amount of exercise you do?
01:29:27.000I mean, you know, you certainly, I think that if you're doing, if you're not eating any food and you're just doing like a water fast, you certainly, it could be more dangerous and should listen to your body.
01:29:38.000And if you feel really sick or your heart's racing, you just, you should eat.
01:29:41.000I mean, it's something that like I wouldn't.
01:29:45.000Water fast as opposed to what other kind of fast?
01:29:48.000There's a fasting mimicking diet where people can, this is something Walter Longo has published on in humans and study humans as well as animal data, where it's like a very, you know, like the first day it's like a thousand calories, and the second through fifth day it's like 700 calories,
01:30:04.000and then they're broken up where it's like the first day it's like, it's very much a low sugar, low protein, high fat, modest carb kind of diet.
01:30:13.000So what are the foods that they consume?
01:30:45.000But yeah, you can do like, you could definitely do like an avocado if it's like the whole day.
01:30:50.000And then some people have sort of done modified versions of it as well, like where it's a little more ketogenic, like they've adjusted the carbohydrate and fat to be a little more of the ketogenic.
01:30:59.000And like I said, the study that was published in parallel with the fasting mimicking diet study, the fasting mimicking diet they did for three months, but it was only one week that did the fasting mimicking diet.
01:31:11.000So the other, you know, part of the three months they were eating a Mediterranean-like diet.
01:31:16.000The other people, which was in Germany, they were on a ketogenic diet and they were on it for three months and they experienced improvements as well.
01:31:23.000So, there's definitely ways to tweak it.
01:31:28.000And actually, getting to the Alzheimer's, the guy that I interviewed, Dr. Dale Bredesen, he is published extensively and also has a lot of clinical experience.
01:31:42.000Where he's trying to understand the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease and I'm getting to this for the ketogenic is going to come back eventually.
01:31:50.000So he tries to understand a lot of the underlying mechanisms for Alzheimer's disease and in his clinical experience he sort of sees there's subtypes of Alzheimer's where you can get like patients that have a really high inflammatory where they've got lots of inflammatory biomarkers They also have this high fasting blood glucose and their little like,
01:32:13.000But then you can get the same sort of metabolic effect where you have people that are kind of on the insulin resistant spectra, but without inflammation.
01:32:21.000There's that subtype, and then there's another subtype where it seems like a big environmental component, like toxic stuff people are being exposed to.
01:32:28.000And that leads to a much, much earlier diagnosis in Alzheimer's and a sort of different phenotype.
01:32:33.000But he has this really aggressive and very thorough protocol that's on the individual level where he has tons and tons of biomarkers that are measured.
01:33:09.000Homocysteine is really important because there's publications showing that if you lower homocysteine, he actually published this in one patient.
01:33:18.000It reversed the hippocampal atrophy, which is kind of amazing.
01:33:21.000So it's not really known exactly what the mechanism is, but so that's something he looks at.
01:33:30.000I mean, improving sleep, exercise, and he gives them all sorts of vitamins and fish oil.
01:33:34.000But on top of that, he has this diet that he...
01:33:37.000It's kind of like to lower the inflammation and improve the insulin sensitivity and blood glucose and all that, where he puts them on a diet that's kind of like...
01:33:45.000He calls it Ketoflex, but it's kind of like a ketogenic diet, modified ketogenic diet, but a lot of the fats are coming from, like, plant sources.
01:33:57.000He treats meat as a condiment, and basically he's getting improvements with this type of diet, lowering inflammation, improving all sorts of metabolic things.
01:34:10.000I've read a lot of his studies because he publishes a lot on Alzheimer's disease and mechanisms, and he's got a book out as well where he kind of goes in depth about it.
01:34:20.000So it certainly seems very interesting that he's actually been able to not only delay Alzheimer's disease but reverse it.
01:34:28.000And he has published a couple of published studies where people were able to go back to work and actually in some cases their brain atrophy kind of stopped and it started to reverse where they were like growing more neurons.
01:34:55.000He says now he's got like 50 more that he's getting ready to publish.
01:34:59.000And then he's, you know, got this whole protocol where there's like just he's got like thousands of patients where they're like kind of treating this sort of individual way.
01:35:06.000They do genetic testing, blood testing and all that stuff as well.
01:35:09.000So it's very interesting because it's, you know, he's basically showing the important interaction between diet, lifestyle, and potentially genetics.
01:35:18.000And this is kind of where my paper comes in.
01:35:23.000Because there is a gene that increases the risk for Alzheimer's if you have one copy of it.
01:35:30.000So you get two copies of every gene from mom, one from dad.
01:35:33.000If you have one copy of it, it increases your risk for Alzheimer's disease by like two to three fold.
01:35:37.000If you have two copies, it could be anywhere between 10 and 15 fold.
01:35:40.000So it's like really, it's called ApoE4.
01:35:42.000It also increases your chances of having a really poor outcome if you have any type of TBI. And people with that allele and have TBI, multiple TBIs, definitely are much more likely to come down with some sort of neurodegenerative disease.
01:36:01.000So there's like this, like, what's going on here?
01:36:03.000You know, there seems to be this clear, you know, gene-environment interaction going on.
01:36:08.000And so I was really interested in this because I found out I had one of these alleles.
01:36:15.000And of course that got me really concerned.
01:36:18.000One of the things that's really, really important is sleep because sleep is one of the ways you actually clear away amyloid plaques from your brain.
01:36:25.000Your brain actually swells during sleep.
01:36:28.000You squirt cerebral final fluid into your brain and you basically clean out amyloid plaques and a bunch of other gunk that's built up.
01:36:36.000It's a car wash for your brain while you sleep?
01:36:38.000Yeah, and I talked about this with former guest here, Dr. Matt Walker.
01:36:49.000I really love the conversation I had with him.
01:36:51.000So we talked about this in detail because basically that is one of the major ways you clear amyloid plaques, but the other way is through an ApoE-mediated mechanism.
01:37:02.000And ApoE4 Does it like 20-fold less efficiently than someone that doesn't have it.
01:37:10.000And there's all sorts of studies with ApoE4 showing sleep is a major modifiable risk factor for Alzheimer's disease.
01:37:18.000If you have ApoE4 but you're getting good quality sleep, you have like the same risk as someone that doesn't have it.
01:37:23.000And so I was like, gee, you know, of course I was thinking about this the entire time that I had my son and I was like not sleeping for months.
01:37:29.000But anyways, the other thing that I looked into in my publication, and this is where another sort of diet gene interaction comes in, is that there's all sorts of clinical studies showing that people with ApoE4 We're good to go.
01:38:02.000Animals that were given human ApoE4 versus human ApoE3, the DHA doesn't get transported across the blood-brain barrier very well with ApoE4.
01:38:15.000There's some sort of transport defect.
01:38:17.000And DHA in the brain is really important.
01:38:19.000It's been shown to play an important role in human studies, but a lot of animal studies and human studies have been shown to increase amyloid clearance.
01:38:27.000In humans, it's been shown to decrease tau tangles.
01:38:31.000And also, it's really important for glucose uptake into the brain because it regulates the transporters, glucose transporters.
01:38:40.000So tau tangles form inside of neurons, and they disrupt a process that's called microtubule transport, which is where basically it's the neuron system for transporting fatty acids, all sorts of goodies,
01:38:56.000energy to the To the synapse, where synaptic transition is happening.
01:39:01.000Tau tangles basically disrupt that whole thing.
01:39:03.000Amyloid plaques form outside of neurons in the extracellular space, and they can disrupt synapse formation.
01:39:13.000As a protective mechanism against viral, fungal, or bacterial infection.
01:39:17.000So it's kind of like, you know, that's the reason why they're forming, but it's just a matter of clearing them out and also how your brain's able to, like, deal with the amyloid plaque burden and ApoE4 is not able to deal with it very well.
01:39:30.000So the DHA transport thing is basically what I published has to do with the interaction between different forms of DHA and ApoE.
01:39:39.000There's two different ways that DHA is transported across the brain.
01:39:42.000One is when it's like in a free fatty acid form.
01:39:45.000It's bound to albumin, and it requires an intact blood-brain barrier.
01:39:50.000Specifically, the outer membrane of the blood-brain barrier needs to be intact.
01:39:54.000Because it goes through passive diffusion.
01:39:56.000Well, if there's a disruption in the blood-brain barrier, then the DHA isn't going to be transporting very well in that form.
01:40:03.000And it's been shown that ApoE4 actually disrupts that very thing, the outer membrane.
01:40:09.000The tight junctions that bind the outer membrane of the endothelial cells that line the blood-brain barrier.
01:40:14.000And so it's quite possible that that is why DHA is not getting into the brains very well in ApoE4 carriers.
01:40:22.000There's another way to get it in, and this is through a transporter that uses something called lysophosphatidylcholine DHA, which is a phospholipid form of DHA. It forms from phosphatidylcholine DHA. The transporter is called MFSD2A and it basically takes the DHA and flips it down across the outer membrane into the inner membrane of the blood-brain barrier so it bypasses that outer membrane and then it gets transported in.
01:40:47.000So if you look at animal studies that you delete that transporter, like 60% of the DHA is not getting into the brain if you give animals DHA. Humans with variation in that gene that makes it less active have a form of neurological disorders and neurodegenerative disorders.
01:41:08.000So it's obviously very important to get DHA into the brain through that mechanism.
01:41:15.000Well, it turns out if you consume DHA in phospholipid form, you actually form more of lysophosphatidylcholine DHA. And that's because basically Where the DHAs are on a phospholipid,
01:41:30.000they're in multiple carbons, and one of them can escape a lipase in the pancreas, and so basically you can form more of it.
01:41:37.000So phospholipid form DHAs in fish, but it's really abundant in fish roe, like super abundant, like 30 to 70% of DHA that's found in fish roe, which are fish eggs, a variety of different kinds,
01:42:10.000But you can go into like a Japanese store.
01:42:13.000You can get flying fish roe, you know, which are much...
01:42:15.000Some people prefer those because they're smaller and the texture, they don't like...
01:42:19.000The salmon roe, like the ikura, if you go to like a sushi restaurant and you get like the fish eggs that come in like, you know, the seaweed.
01:42:40.000So I'm basically, you know, that's one way to get more phospholipid form, but also DHA consumed in like triglyceride form, which is what a lot of fish oil is, also forms.
01:42:51.000It also forms DHA lysophosphatylcholine, but you just need more of it.
01:42:56.000So it's also possible that some of these clinical trials showing that, you know, fish oil failed was because they were using, like the dose they were using was two grams.
01:43:04.000So maybe you need six grams, maybe you need four.
01:43:07.000Is there any negative benefit or negative consequence of consuming too much fish oil?
01:43:11.000Well, I think, you know, it certainly depends on the type of fish oil that you're consuming.
01:43:16.000I mean, if you're consuming oxidized fish oil, then it's certainly not very good.
01:43:20.000And why would it be oxidized if it's too old?
01:43:25.000If it's too old and depending on what the isolation process was.
01:43:37.000And like I said, there's that fish oil standards program you can look up and there's a variety of different fish oil supplement brands that are on there.
01:43:44.000The other thing is like there was just recently a randomized, very, very large randomized controlled trial published on four grams of one of the omega-3 fatty acids found in fish and other marine organisms, EPA. And they were given four grams a day for five years,
01:43:59.0008,000 patients, randomized placebo-controlled Different countries.
01:44:04.000And it reduced, and these actually were patients that had high triglycerides and also were on statins.
01:44:11.000It lowered cardiovascular disease risk by like 28 or close to 30% or something like that.
01:44:20.000You know, so that was a high dose, and that was five years, pretty long follow-up, and it was a randomized placebo-controlled study.
01:44:28.000I think it was called the VITAL-IT study.
01:44:33.000But, you know, the other thing that I think people are worried about with really high-dose fish oil is the potential for blood thinning, because it does inhibit thromboxanes and prostaglandins and leukotrienes and things that are important for, like, you know, clotting.
01:44:49.000You know, I've been taking a really high dose for like over a decade, you know, of fish oil.
01:44:55.000I've been taking not always six grams, but I've been taking a high dose for quite a while.
01:44:59.000And how often do you get your blood work done?
01:45:01.000Well, recently I haven't been getting it done very often because the pregnancy and breastfeeding and stuff sort of changes things.
01:45:08.000I try to do it like, ideally, like doing it once a quarter, but like a couple times a year for sure.
01:47:14.000But the NAD by intravenous method, it's supposed to be a much more potent form of it.
01:47:19.000And the people that I know that have tried it, like the guys at Onnit, someone will come down to the Onnit labs a couple times a month and a bunch of the employees will sign up and get zapped.
01:47:32.000So I wonder why some of these guys don't start, like, gathering data and start publishing, because it'd be nice to...
01:48:19.000Before I forget, I did want to ask you about, circling back to this whole carnivore thing, one of the suggestions was that, is it possible that some small percentage of the population would actually be allergic to a lot of plants?
01:48:39.000I mean, there are people that can be allergic to certain components.
01:48:42.000I mean, there's the whole nightshade, you know, family where I think some people can, like, they have allergic reactions to.
01:49:21.000But typically, most people don't have reactions to lectins.
01:49:27.000Possibly if they already have some sort of gut barrier problem, that could sort of elicit a reaction.
01:49:32.000But a lot of the data out there is like in vitro, where lectins are used to stimulate the immune system in vitro.
01:49:39.000In fact, I've used lectins before to do an experiment.
01:49:42.000But, you know, so I think that, yeah, there's certainly food allergies are definitely a possibility and they do exist.
01:49:51.000So is it possible that someone would be allergic to both cruciferous vegetables and, you know, a bunch of other like celery or cucumbers or things along those lines?
01:50:02.000I don't know if they're allergic to them.
01:50:06.000I think that people can have, you know, with like a variety of different issues like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth in their intestines, you know, people that are sensitive to like FODMAPs, those things.
01:50:19.000What is a FODMAP? I don't have fructose, oligosaccharide, like I can't remember what it is.
01:50:25.000But basically people can be sensitive to them.
01:50:28.000They're usually people with gut issues.
01:51:00.000I haven't come across any, but I haven't done an in-depth search for that specific thing.
01:51:06.000So is it fair to say that when people are describing this and they're saying that it might be possible that there is a small percentage of the population that's allergic to plants, that really what you're dealing with is a small percentage of population that has a significantly impaired gut biome that is finding benefit to eliminating these plants,
01:51:28.000This strict elimination diet, being on this carnivore diet, which also has calorie-restrictive aspects to it and even fasting-restricted aspects to it, that this is why they're experiencing this positive benefit and that perhaps one of the ways they could fix their gut biome would be some sort of prolonged fast or something along those lines to try to fix the problem at the root source instead of Maybe what the carnivore diet would be is like some sort of a
01:52:01.000And I think that the study I was talking about, the 15-day intermittent fast where people with autoimmune disease were fasted for 24 hours every other day, they had changes in their microbiome that were in line, very interesting changes.
01:52:15.000They actually grew bacteria that are very important for producing things like Butyrate, which helps make T regulatory cells.
01:52:27.000It's a signaling molecule that helps your immune system produce more T regulatory immune cells.
01:52:33.000This is something that comes from a state of ketosis as well?
01:52:38.000And the thing that was so interesting, and it's a question I had had for so long, was like, what happens to the microbiome when you don't eat?
01:52:46.000Are you getting a selection for mucin-degrading bacteria, which are degrading a certain glycoprotein that lines the gut?
01:52:54.000And the thing that was so interesting about this study was that they did this metagenomic analysis, and they found from fecal samples that Within the existing microbiome, it was increasing the production of ketone bodies themselves.
01:53:09.000And that was fueling, because your gut cells and also a lot of the beneficial bacteria like things like butyrate, lactate, propionate, acetate.
01:53:19.000These are some of the short-chain fatty acids.
01:53:21.000Butyrate's the big one in the gut, for the gut.
01:53:22.000Gut cells, like 80 or 90% are using butyrate.
01:53:26.000But fasting was increasing all these ketone bodies.
01:53:29.000So it's kind of really interesting because...
01:53:31.000For one, it basically increased the diversity of this beneficial bacteria.
01:54:26.000So that's another interesting question.
01:54:30.000Yeah, because it is an interesting way to hack your system is that these exogenous ketones like Kegenix, or that's one that I use for a few other companies that make these, they do put your body in a state of ketosis.
01:55:45.000Today is because the flip side is, because I'm not in ketosis, I'm not on a ketogenic diet, it lowers my blood sugar levels really dramatically.
01:55:57.000There's mechanisms that are trying to be explored to understanding why that is, and possibly as a therapeutic treatment for Type 2 diabetes and things like that.
01:56:05.000But so once the ketones wear off, which they do after a couple of hours, I crash because my blood glucose is low and I don't have the ketones there to compensate, right?
01:56:16.000Whereas if I was already in ketosis, then, you know, it wouldn't matter because I'd already, I'd be in ketosis.
01:56:44.000I mean, there's, you know, possibly the glucose is being spared in my brain for other things.
01:56:50.000That's, you know, because now the ketone, the beta-hydroxybutyrate is being used as a source of energy and glucose is being used.
01:56:56.000I mean, glucose sparing does occur a lot of times in the context of making more glutathione because that's, glucose can be used for energy or can be used to make glutathione.
01:57:06.000And The pathway that it does that is through a pathway called the pentose phosphate shunt.
01:57:12.000And that pathway takes glucose and makes something called NADPH, which is then used, which is necessary to make glutathione.
01:57:18.000So I don't know, maybe there's some kind of, because you know what else does it for me?
01:57:24.000Sulforaphane gives me major anti-anxiety effects and like cognitive like I feel broccoli sprouts consuming broccoli sprouts does affect glutathione in the brain.
01:57:54.000Glutathione, first of all, gets destroyed in the gut, but even if you were to get it into your bloodstream, there's no transporter for glutathione to get into cells.
01:59:05.000Yeah, something about the processing of alcohol.
01:59:09.000Now, so the best way to get it would be through sulforaphane, so from broccoli sprouts, cruciferous vegetables, and then your body would produce more?
01:59:19.000Well, so from the human studies that I've referenced, one was 300 grams of Brussels sprouts a day increased glutathione plasma by 1.4-fold.
01:59:30.000The other study More recently, that showed an increase in plasma as well as in the brain.
01:59:37.000That was a broccoli sprout extract that was given.
01:59:42.000I have the dose on my Instagram, I think.
01:59:44.000I don't remember off the top of my head the dose.
01:59:46.000So that's one of the ways I know of, one of the most powerful ways I know of to increase glutathione basically in humans.
01:59:55.000So I don't know how much 300 grams of Brussels sprouts is.
01:59:59.000So what would be a good idea, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, would be a large plate of Brussels sprouts or broccoli sprouts with some sort of a ketone supplement.
02:00:15.000Or if you're in ketosis, whether that's fasting, time-restricted eating, you know, so that's something that I do, so I am definitely trying to get my ketosis in, or you're on a ketogenic diet and you're getting...
02:00:30.000The glucose-sparing stuff, that's been shown in animals, so I don't know how much of that is, you know, translatable to humans, what effect.
02:00:37.000I mean, you always have to have evidence to say something definitively.
02:00:40.000But animal studies do show that there is a glucose sparing effect when you have ketone bodies.
02:00:50.000It's fascinating that it would make you more present.
02:00:54.000You know, what's fascinating is that sulforaphane treats autistic symptoms, right?
02:02:15.000And maybe an exogenous ketone drink as well, like the two of them together.
02:02:20.000Yeah, so the only thing is, like I mentioned, for me, I crash after a couple of hours where I'm like, it's really crashing.
02:02:28.000But do you think you could mitigate that with maybe some sort of a glucose?
02:02:32.000Because one of the things that they say to take when you're taking those ketone salts or ketone esters, the really potent ones, is to take them with glucose.
02:04:38.000So like – That's why you made it in a shake?
02:04:40.000So if you're going to put it in a shake with other things, you want to blend it up first because – The enzyme, myrosinase, that has to come in contact with the precursor of sulforaphane, glucoraphanin, has to be in contact with it.
02:04:53.000So it's diluted out if you have like a big, all this other stuff.
02:04:55.000So blend it up first and then add your other stuff.
02:04:59.000But I've been taking a supplement I got from France called Prostaphane, which is, there's published studies on it, and it tastes like broccoli sprouts.
02:05:09.000And I've been taking that right now just because of the potential risk for contamination.
02:06:18.000And also, from ones we made at home, if you have to be really careful, if you have too much water around it, if it's too much heat and condensation and all that stuff.
02:06:28.000And bacteria grows, because you're eating it raw.
02:08:09.000Plus the precursor that is important for forming sulforaphane, you actually have bacteria in your gut.
02:08:16.000And this is something that Dr. Jed Fahey talked about when I interviewed him.
02:08:22.000He was talking about there's certain strains of bacteria in the gut that convert, because they have the enzyme myrosinase, and they convert it into sulfurophene in the gut.
02:08:29.000So you can actually get a certain amount.
02:08:53.000Like I mentioned, the supplements I'm taking, there is one out there also that has a lot of the precursor and some of the enzyme, and so you can get a modest amount of...
02:09:02.000And this is what was used in the most recent autism study.
02:10:30.000Yeah, it seems like it can be a little like...
02:10:34.000You know, sometimes if you're on an empty stomach, it doesn't feel good.
02:10:40.000I've had a lot of people email me, you know, since the first time you and I talked about Zulfurphane.
02:10:46.000Some of them have taken Avmacol, some have gotten a hold of Prostaphan, some have been doing broccoli sprouts.
02:10:50.000I mean, I've had people talking about, like, tumor shrinking and stuff.
02:10:53.000Like, one guy, yeah, I mean, it's like, all anecdotal, but I've had multiple people talking about their prostate-stimuling Antigen going down.
02:13:13.000Because essentially there's a biological mechanism that's happening that must be fascinating to study on yourself as you're watching it happen.
02:13:21.000Because, you know, the oxytocin gets jacked through the roof.
02:13:24.000You have this little thing that you love literally more than anything you've ever experienced in your entire existence.
02:13:30.000You can't believe how much you love them.
02:13:32.000It's hard for me as a father to imagine what it would be like to be a mother.
02:13:40.000Because I think there's a big difference.
02:13:43.000And this is one of the reasons why me and my wife had a deal.
02:13:54.000Yeah, I mean, it's just nothing nutty, but it's in your body.
02:14:00.000I mean, you're cooking it up inside of you.
02:14:03.000The difference between the job a man does and a woman does in terms of like the actual making of the baby could not be further apart from each other.
02:14:14.000The guy just does something that feels great.
02:21:42.000May I ask you before we get going, is there a difference, because this keeps coming up, is there any beneficial difference between infrared versus standard?
02:21:52.000Well, a lot of the studies that I refer to and that have been published have been using a standard, right?
02:22:01.000I mean, the standard hot sauna, you're heating up the air and you're getting hot.
02:22:07.000Whereas the infrared is like, it's like using, it's like wavelengths that are like, you know, stimulating electrons that are sort of changing things and heating up you from a different sort of way.
02:22:17.000But I do think that the key is the heat stress itself.
02:22:24.000Personally, I think that the standard is better.
02:23:43.000Two to three times a week is like 24% improvement.
02:23:46.000So like a dose-dependent manner, Alzheimer's disease as well is like reduced by like 60% if you do it four to seven times a week, all cause mortality.
02:23:53.000But he's also done some intervention studies showing that like there's improvements.
02:23:57.000Even a single dose of doing the sauna, improvements in the ability of your blood vessels to contract and expand with pressure changes, which is important.
02:24:07.000So it's like vascular compliance, it's called.
02:24:10.000Improvements in blood pressure, decreases in C-reactive protein, inflammatory biomarker.
02:24:17.000Other studies have been showing recently in humans Increase in mitochondrial biogenesis, growing new healthy mitochondria, improvements in mitochondrial function, and then also improvements in anti-inflammatory cytokines being increased.
02:24:33.000And these are all intervention trials as well.
02:24:36.000People that are doing it before doing a workout, which is interesting because I've always done it after.
02:26:38.000But he also measured their cytokine called IL-6, which is something that's released from exercise.
02:26:45.000Muscle tissue releases it, spills out into the bloodstream.
02:26:48.000And it's part of the inflammatory response, part of the inflammatory aspect of exercise.
02:26:55.000And in response, there's a whole anti-inflammatory effect.
02:26:59.000And so what he showed is that actually people with more IL-6 that happened, the better they had antidepressant effect.
02:27:08.000So it's super interesting because, again, exercise does that.
02:27:11.000In fact, if you give people NSAIDs or like, you know, so non-steroidal and inflammatories before exercise, it actually blunts the IL-6 production and it blunts some of the positive benefits like insulin sensitivity.
02:27:26.000So the IL-6, although it's an inflammatory cytokine, it's kind of like this sort of pleiotropic one that like it's released.
02:27:34.000In muscle tissue, it's released and it seems to like increase Have a big anti-inflammatory response that happens in response to that.
02:27:43.000So it was really interesting because the inflammation seems to be really important for depression and that the sauna was like, you know, basically lowering markers of inflammation.
02:27:53.000So it's been shown to lower C-rect protein and then also increase IL-10.
02:27:58.000So it's a very interesting kind of connection between mood, heat stress, and then, of course, exercise does the same thing.
02:28:04.000Exercise does elevate your core body temperature and heats you up.
02:28:07.000And I asked Dr. Rezon, he thinks that things like the sauna, hot yoga, hot bath, steam room, all those things are pretty much can give you the same effect.
02:28:30.000I feel happier and it feels different than a regular workout.
02:28:33.000Like regular workout does that but it seems more an alleviation of stress.
02:28:38.000Like I've expelled the excess energy in my body and I can relax and there's certainly some sort of Some sort of a positive hormonal effect after it's over.
02:29:18.000And the thing about yoga is that it's only 104 degrees in the room, but when you take into account the extreme condition of, like, the exercise, extreme stress that you're putting on your body, a lot of it is, like, really difficult balancing and you're straining and all your muscles.
02:29:41.000There's certain ones, like when you do a balancing stick, when I'm standing in front of me like this, I'm watching it just pour off my arms.
02:30:23.000And that changes some of the, at least in animal studies, it's been shown to change the sensitivity to endorphins from the receptor standpoint.
02:30:34.000That's kind of initially what I originally was looking into when I was noticing all these benefits from the sauna.
02:30:40.000But that's really cool that you're doing it because there's so many studies now showing that there's benefits on the cardiovascular health, also on neurodegenerative disease, depression, I mean the anti-inflammatory effects as well.
02:31:23.000I mean, it's like the same effect that happens where you elevated heart rate and all those sort of similar mechanisms kick into play like they do when you're in a sauna.
02:33:47.000I mean it's not you're not taking in a drug but you're so chilled out you know and you do have a weird psychedelic state that you achieve when you're it's like a very extreme form of meditation in a lot of ways because of the fact that you're not feeling your body at all and it's you're only experiencing whatever's going on it's like your brain detached from all the input of the body.
02:34:37.000It would be really interesting to see how that differs from...
02:34:42.000Meditation is one thing I have a hard time with.
02:34:44.000Well, meditation in conjunction with the tank, I think, is really the key.
02:34:48.000I think the tank allows you to achieve a state of your physical body You don't ever completely eliminate the sensory input, but you diminish it so significantly that that environment is not available anywhere else on Earth.
02:35:06.000Well, you're floating, so you don't feel your body.
02:35:09.000Your water is the temperature of your skin, the air is the same temperature as the water, and you feel like you're just flying through infinity.
02:35:17.000You're in total darkness, total silence.
02:35:28.000I could feel the water the entire time.
02:35:30.000Yeah, it's probably either too cold or too hot.
02:35:33.000Do you feel like your brain is in the now when you're doing it?
02:35:37.000I feel like my brain has way more resources available to it.
02:35:46.000If you and I were having this conversation and we didn't have the headphones on and there was a jackhammer next to us, it would be really distracting.
02:35:52.000You'd want to get away from that jackhammer.
02:36:14.000You settle in and once you settle in you touch each side so that you can you know because you get in the waters like a few whip ripples and little little waves and then you touch each side so you calm everything down and then I sink into the water and And then I take some deep breaths,
02:36:30.000and then I slowly bring my arms in the middle, and then I chill out.
02:36:34.000And I've done it so many times, my body goes, okay, here we go again.
02:37:38.000And so they oftentimes can't go into a room with a lot of people.
02:37:41.000They don't want to go off by themselves or whatever.
02:37:45.000So I wonder if there's any sort of benefit for doing something like that where you're not, you know, the sensory inputs kind of like, if you could kind of train your brain a little bit.
02:38:38.000I also sometimes use the sauna for that where I'll like have something like prepared.
02:38:44.000I used to actually before giving a presentation, I would go in the sauna and I would go through it in my head, you know, so it's like, you know, that was something that that I used to do a lot.
02:38:53.000Right, because the sauna, there's nothing in there, just you, sitting there, and it gives you that unusual environment of just silence.
02:39:01.000So it's kind of interesting that you mention that.
02:39:04.000That's a step, but I think the float tank is the ultimate.
02:39:09.000And right now, there's a really interesting podcast that's available.
02:39:14.000I've talked about this podcast before, Stuff to Blow Your Mind.
02:39:16.000They have an episode right now, this week, that is about John Lilly.
02:39:22.000Who is the psychedelic pioneer who created the sensory deprivation tank.
02:39:27.000And he also is a pioneer in interspecies communication, figured out how to communicate with dolphins and did a bunch of weird psychedelic research with dolphins.
02:39:38.000There it is, from the vault, John C. Lilly.
02:39:45.000I mean if you go but they go deep into the history of his his career too, which is just Very varied fucking really strange guy, but I think his great contribution is not just Understanding the sentient nature of dolphins and how incredibly complex their language is and how smart they are but also the sensory deprivation tank which I think is It's one of the most underutilized tools For consciousness.
02:41:35.000You know, you need to spend an hour a day just doing this.
02:41:38.000And instead of drinking coffee and looking at your phone before you work out, just fucking work out.
02:41:43.000Just get in there and you're wasting 20 minutes doing that.
02:41:47.000That 20 minutes, you could have been done 20 minutes earlier, and then you wouldn't have to rush over here to do the podcast.
02:41:52.000And it's like it starts sort of giving me almost like a subconscious renovation.
02:42:00.000You know like just so it's just sort of like it's okay like this is There's all this stuff in your subconscious is disturbing you and here's why it's disturbing you because you've got all this clutter So let's clean this shit up clean it up get it together and it's been responsible for I think a lot of my focus and discipline like understanding the significance of that focus and discipline and it's not just like To be a tough guy or to just go out there and kick ass.
02:42:28.000It's more like to absolve yourself of brain clutter.
02:42:33.000That's pretty awesome, that introspection you're talking about.
02:42:35.000I think a lot of people could use more of that, including myself.
02:43:12.000You're sort of managing the motion of your body.
02:43:15.000And then once you get in, it's almost like a mantra.
02:43:17.000You're managing the motion of your body and then the breathing.
02:43:20.000And then once you get it all synced up, if you're in good enough shape that it's not like a titanic struggle with every lap or every stroke of your arms, you can get into this sort of meditative state that a lot of people achieve with running or even just like sitting there breathing.
02:43:50.000Some of the other interesting stuff is just doing that, sit there, sit still and breathe, changes the activation of enzymes and stuff like telomerase, the enzyme that rebuilds telomeres.
02:44:15.000And whenever I talk to you, I'm more and more sort of aware of that because there's so many different things and so many different mechanisms in terms of nutrition and nutritional absorption that I just – I'm so ignorant of.
02:44:27.000And so I hear all these things and I'm like – I'm trying to – Trying to get a map of the territory.
02:44:33.000Yeah, I mean, also, there's so many things I'm ignorant of as well.
02:44:36.000But I feel like every time I talk, it's like someone's breaking out a little napkin and going, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:44:42.000And then you take a right here and you go there and I go, all right.
02:47:09.000And the most recent one, which is the one that we were discussing, was about Alzheimer's.
02:47:15.000And website is also foundmyfitness.com.
02:47:18.000Yeah, there's a lot of show notes and summaries and definitions that help people understand some of the stuff if they don't understand everything that we're speaking about.