The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1213 - Dr. Andrew Weil

00:00:03.000 Four, three, two...

00:00:06.000 All the way from Tucson, Arizona!

00:00:09.000 Dr. Weil, how are you, sir?

00:00:11.000 I am good.

00:00:12.000 Thanks for doing this, man.

00:00:12.000 I appreciate it.

00:00:13.000 Pleasure.

00:00:14.000 You come highly recommended by many human beings that I know.

00:00:16.000 Well, I'm glad to hear it.

00:00:17.000 How do you get such a fine reputation?

00:00:20.000 Well, I've been doing the same things for a long time, just putting one foot ahead of the other and saying what I know to be true.

00:00:26.000 And pushing matcha. 0.99

00:00:28.000 Everybody likes matcha.

00:00:29.000 Who doesn't like matcha tea?

00:00:30.000 This is your stuff?

00:00:31.000 Yeah, but you know, a lot of people have only tasted really bad matcha.

00:00:35.000 Oh, okay.

00:00:36.000 Enlighten me.

00:00:36.000 What's the deal?

00:00:37.000 You know, it's powdered tea, and it's very, very finely powdered, and it's very labor-intensive to prepare.

00:00:43.000 And it's got such a huge surface area that it oxidizes very quickly.

00:00:47.000 So if it's not properly packed and stored, it loses its brilliant green color.

00:00:51.000 It turns yellow green or gray green.

00:00:53.000 It gets bitter and loses its taste.

00:00:55.000 And I've got to say, most of the matcha that I see served...

00:00:58.000 In this country is of that sort.

00:01:00.000 And many people have never had the good stuff.

00:01:02.000 What's the benefits of matcha?

00:01:05.000 First of all, it's beautiful.

00:01:06.000 I mean, I've never seen a green color like that.

00:01:08.000 It's just amazing.

00:01:09.000 And the flavor is amazing.

00:01:10.000 But it's the only preparation of tea in which the whole leaf is consumed.

00:01:15.000 And it's grown under special conditions.

00:01:17.000 The leaves are shaded, deep shade for the last three weeks before harvest.

00:01:22.000 So in response to that, the leaves produce more chlorophyll, more antioxidants, more of the good stuff.

00:01:28.000 So it's got much more of the things that you want.

00:01:31.000 And this has like a pop-top like Pringles.

00:01:34.000 Yeah.

00:01:35.000 So the matcha's in there?

00:01:36.000 It's got to stay fresh.

00:01:37.000 And after you open it, you want to keep it in the freezer.

00:01:39.000 Oh, okay.

00:01:40.000 Yep.

00:01:40.000 Freezer.

00:01:41.000 You've got to freeze it.

00:01:42.000 And you should sift it so it doesn't form lumps.

00:01:44.000 And then you whisk it with that traditional bamboo whisk.

00:01:46.000 Or you buy a little electric whisker.

00:01:49.000 And you can whisk it in hot water or cold water.

00:01:51.000 And it's very yummy.

00:01:52.000 And what does it do for you?

00:01:55.000 Well, it's got caffeine, of course, so you get stimulated by it.

00:01:59.000 But it's also got L-theanine, which is this relaxant compound that modifies the effect of caffeine and produces a state of relaxed alertness.

00:02:08.000 So it doesn't have the jangling effect of coffee.

00:02:11.000 And you're getting all of these antioxidant benefits that are well documented in tea.

00:02:15.000 Anyway, I love it.

00:02:16.000 It's a great thing.

00:02:17.000 Anytime you get one of these little whisks, it's like a real bamboo one. 0.98

00:02:21.000 Made from one piece of bamboo.

00:02:22.000 It's a miracle of Japanese craftsmanship.

00:02:25.000 It's beautiful.

00:02:26.000 It's beautiful.

00:02:27.000 So, how often do you drink this stuff?

00:02:29.000 I have a bowl of it every morning.

00:02:31.000 Really?

00:02:31.000 Yeah, and sometimes I have a glass of iced matcha later in the day, especially in warm weather.

00:02:36.000 You're just a matcha fiend.

00:02:37.000 I love it.

00:02:38.000 It's a good thing.

00:02:38.000 I first tasted it when I was 17. I was an exchange student in Japan.

00:02:43.000 In 1959, I lived with a family outside of Tokyo.

00:02:46.000 We had no language in common.

00:02:48.000 And on the second night I was there, the mother took me next door to her neighbors who practiced tea ceremony.

00:02:53.000 And they did this thing for me and I was fascinated by that whisk and the color of the matcha.

00:02:58.000 And I thought it was great.

00:02:59.000 You know, I never thought I'd be able to get it over here.

00:03:02.000 Yeah.

00:03:02.000 Well, so you import this stuff yourself?

00:03:05.000 Is that what you're doing?

00:03:05.000 I started a company called Macha Kari.

00:03:07.000 We've got the URL macha.com.

00:03:09.000 And I went to Japan to Uji, which is a little town outside of Kyoto, which is the center of the best tea production in Japan.

00:03:18.000 And I sourced really good matcha.

00:03:20.000 You know, there are many grades of matcha.

00:03:21.000 The most, the highest are too expensive to use for everyday use.

00:03:25.000 Really?

00:03:25.000 Yeah, I mean, phenomenally expensive.

00:03:27.000 Like how expensive?

00:03:27.000 Like truffles or...

00:03:28.000 Yeah, really expensive.

00:03:30.000 So I've tried to find the best matcha that is affordable and make it available to people here.

00:03:37.000 So like the highest level stuff, how much would it cost for a cup of tea?

00:03:41.000 Hard to estimate for a cup.

00:03:42.000 You know, it possibly, there's a preparation called thick tea in Japan where they use three times the amount of powder.

00:03:48.000 And probably one bowl of that stuff, which is shared by several people, I don't know, it could be $100 a bowl.

00:03:53.000 Whoa, really?

00:03:55.000 Yeah.

00:03:55.000 For tea?

00:03:56.000 Yeah.

00:03:57.000 Why did it catch on in Japan like that?

00:04:00.000 It's always been.

00:04:01.000 You know, it has been in Japan for a very long time and this powdered tea preparation was originally taken up by Zen monks to help them stay awake during long hours of meditation.

00:04:11.000 It was also associated with samurai and became the tea ceremony developed around that.

00:04:17.000 Is there anything that is similar to it?

00:04:21.000 Is it like yerba mate or guarana or any other kind of stimulants?

00:04:24.000 Well, these are all caffeine plants.

00:04:26.000 But in my experience, tea, I think, and it's primarily because of that L-theanine content, the effect is mellower of caffeine.

00:04:34.000 So you get stimulated, you get alert, but it doesn't have the jangling effect of a lot of these other caffeine beverages.

00:04:40.000 Do you drink regular coffee as well?

00:04:42.000 No, I've never drunk coffee.

00:04:44.000 Wow.

00:04:44.000 Who are you?

00:04:45.000 I think I was turned off because my parents, when I was growing up, drank really strong black coffee with no sugar or cream.

00:04:50.000 I couldn't imagine why people would drink that.

00:04:52.000 Savages.

00:04:52.000 Yeah.

00:04:53.000 Those people, they were different people.

00:04:55.000 Did you grow up in a northern climate?

00:04:56.000 I grew up in Philadelphia.

00:04:57.000 Yeah.

00:04:58.000 See, when it's cold outside, the people, they drink that black coffee.

00:05:01.000 Oof.

00:05:03.000 Oof.

00:05:03.000 It makes you angry at the world.

00:05:06.000 Yeah.

00:05:06.000 Dark, black, burnt coffee.

00:05:08.000 I like bright, green, shining matcha.

00:05:12.000 Isn't it interesting that things that are good for you, many things that are good for you, like bell peppers or something like that, they have a beautiful color to them.

00:05:20.000 Well, you know, all the health benefits of fruits and vegetables, a lot of them have to do with these pigments.

00:05:27.000 And the pigments, the plants produce, they're part of their own defensive system, and they do good things in us.

00:05:32.000 And one piece of advice that I often give people is you should try to eat across the color spectrum every day.

00:05:38.000 Think about, you know, what did you eat today that was red?

00:05:40.000 What was purple?

00:05:41.000 What was green?

00:05:41.000 What was right?

00:05:42.000 All of these have different benefits.

00:05:44.000 Is that a scientific perspective?

00:05:46.000 Absolutely.

00:05:48.000 These are categories of phytochemicals or protective phytonutrients, and a lot of them are these pigments that give fruits and vegetables their bright colors.

00:05:57.000 Do you think that people should vary those colors on any given day?

00:06:01.000 I think as much as you can across any day, try to eat across the color spectrum.

00:06:06.000 That's a good thing to aim for.

00:06:08.000 Okay, so just get as many of them in as you can.

00:06:11.000 Yeah.

00:06:12.000 So do you take this approach with fruits, with all sorts of different things?

00:06:16.000 Yeah.

00:06:17.000 Brightly colored stuff is good.

00:06:18.000 Do you eat meat or chicken or fish?

00:06:20.000 I don't.

00:06:20.000 I'm fish and vegetables.

00:06:21.000 Just fish and vegetables, yeah.

00:06:23.000 Now, one of the things I'm super concerned with, and I've been more concerned with the more I pay attention to it, is sustainability when it comes to fish.

00:06:31.000 Absolutely.

00:06:31.000 It seems like, especially ocean fish, human beings are just terrible monsters.

00:06:36.000 You know, there's a famous oceanographer in this country, Sylvia Earle, who was the woman that held a record for the deepest dive. 0.69

00:06:43.000 And she came up to me at a meeting once and pleaded with me not to recommend that people eat fish.

00:06:47.000 She said there just aren't going to be any in the future.

00:06:50.000 And that's probably true.

00:06:52.000 You know, probably the future is going to be farmed fish, and that can be done in a responsible way.

00:06:57.000 Yeah.

00:06:57.000 You can get good guides.

00:06:59.000 One is put out by the Monterey Aquarium.

00:07:01.000 You can get a wallet card that lists fish and shellfish and rates them both by toxicity and sustainability.

00:07:09.000 And that's a good guide to follow.

00:07:11.000 Yeah, mollusks?

00:07:13.000 Yeah, I like oysters and scallops.

00:07:19.000 I eat them.

00:07:20.000 What has led you to not eat chicken or beef?

00:07:25.000 It's been a long time.

00:07:27.000 Let's see, I was, I think, 28, and I was interested in yoga, and people that I knew who were doing yoga had become vegetarian, and I saw friends of mine that had become vegetarian, and I thought, well, I'll just try it for a little while, and it agreed with me.

00:07:41.000 I didn't eat fish for a number of years and I found that made international travel very difficult, especially to Japan.

00:07:48.000 And then I was reading about all the research on good stuff and fish and I started eating fish and that way of eating agrees with me real well.

00:07:56.000 Yeah, it is a thing, an agree with you thing, right?

00:08:00.000 Yeah.

00:08:00.000 It really depended upon the person's...

00:08:02.000 Very individual.

00:08:03.000 So, you know, it's hard to give blanket rules, except I have no problem telling people to stay away from refined, processed, and manufactured food.

00:08:10.000 That's the bad stuff.

00:08:11.000 Yeah, that's a really good, clear thing that everybody can kind of apply in their life.

00:08:15.000 But as far as, like, what is going to work for you, there's a lot of trial and error involved, isn't there?

00:08:19.000 Absolutely.

00:08:19.000 You've got to do experiments, pay attention, see what works for you.

00:08:22.000 Yeah.

00:08:23.000 Now, you practice, how would you call it?

00:08:25.000 Integrative medicine?

00:08:26.000 Integrative medicine.

00:08:27.000 Yeah.

00:08:27.000 How would you define that?

00:08:28.000 Well, it's medicine of the future.

00:08:31.000 Jamie, we're in the future.

00:08:33.000 Short answer is it's the intelligent combination of conventional and alternative medicine.

00:08:37.000 But really, it's a system that focuses on the body's ability to heal itself, that looks at people as whole persons, not just physical bodies, that takes account of all aspects of lifestyle and understanding health and illness, So I'm absolutely convinced this is the way out of the healthcare crisis.

00:09:03.000 I've been training doctors and other health professionals in it for many years now.

00:09:07.000 Now when you say the body's ability to heal itself, how would you accentuate that?

00:09:12.000 This to me is the thing that's most missing from medical education.

00:09:17.000 I think the only time I heard the word healing used in medical school was in wound healing, which in my first year course in histology.

00:09:26.000 To me, the most marvelous thing about our bodies is that they have the capacity to heal themselves.

00:09:31.000 You get a cut, you can watch it heal, and that happens throughout the body.

00:09:36.000 The DNA molecule, this is the big molecule on the border of life and non-life, it has within it the ability To know, in quotes, when it's been injured, if a cosmic ray knocks a part of it out, instantly it begins to manufacture repair enzymes that duplicate the missing piece and paste it in.

00:09:55.000 And you can see that same thing at any level of biological organization.

00:09:58.000 And to me, that's where good medicine should start, that the body has within it the ability to maintain equilibrium, heal itself.

00:10:05.000 Now, knowing that the body has this ability, what do you do to accentuate that?

00:10:09.000 Well, when I listen to a patient and hear their story, at the back of my mind I'm thinking, why is healing not happening here?

00:10:16.000 What can I do from outside that can facilitate that?

00:10:19.000 I can't put it into somebody, but I can help it along by either supplying energy, missing materials, remove obstacles to it.

00:10:28.000 You know, like you have a wound that doesn't heal, maybe there's a foreign body in it.

00:10:31.000 You remove that and it heals.

00:10:34.000 Now, when you have people that come to you that have issues, like say if someone comes to you and they have a back issue, they've got a little bit of lower back pain, do you approach that in terms of how they're eating, how they're living their lifestyle first?

00:10:51.000 I'm a great follower of a man who died recently named John Sarno.

00:10:56.000 You know about his work?

00:10:58.000 He has some great books, Mind Over Back Pain, Healing Back Pain.

00:11:01.000 And his main belief, which I totally agree with, is that the vast majority of back pain Is muscle spasm, which originates in the mind.

00:11:10.000 And it may localize at an area of physical injury, but the injury is not the cause of it.

00:11:16.000 You can live with a slipped disc and have no pain.

00:11:20.000 You look at x-rays of people...

00:11:21.000 How do you define slip, though?

00:11:22.000 What does that mean?

00:11:22.000 Does it mean bulging?

00:11:23.000 Does it mean herniated?

00:11:24.000 Bulging or herniated.

00:11:26.000 That does not necessarily cause pain.

00:11:28.000 And unless there's associated neurological symptoms, you don't want to do anything about that.

00:11:34.000 Unless it's pressing on a nerve.

00:11:36.000 Exactly.

00:11:36.000 Right.

00:11:37.000 Now, John Sarno's idea was that it's a lot of stress and anxiety and a lot of different psychological factors that are causing his back pain.

00:11:46.000 I'm sure he was some kind of incredible healer.

00:11:49.000 He required that people who came to him come to two evening lectures that he gave.

00:11:53.000 That's all.

00:11:54.000 Many people who did that lost their back pain forever, just listening to him.

00:11:58.000 Other people have had that happen just reading his book.

00:12:01.000 Yeah, I've read a little bit of it.

00:12:03.000 I've had like legitimate injuries, so whenever I hear someone say, oh, it's all in your head.

00:12:09.000 It's not all in your head.

00:12:10.000 It's in your head and your body.

00:12:12.000 It's in your head and your muscles.

00:12:13.000 And this problem of muscle spasm, which shuts off blood supply and it's a vicious cycle, that'll localize in an area you've had physical injury.

00:12:23.000 But the pain is not coming from the injury.

00:12:25.000 It's coming from muscle spasm, and that's controlled by Greatly influenced by the mind.

00:12:30.000 So when your back seizes up, that is a muscle spasm.

00:12:35.000 And it's incredibly painful.

00:12:36.000 And it's located in the area of the injury, so it can confuse you into thinking it's the injury that's causing you pain.

00:12:42.000 And leads people into getting physical interventions that may not be necessary.

00:12:47.000 Yeah, I'm a big believer in waiting, especially with spinal steps.

00:12:52.000 Absolutely.

00:12:53.000 They always want to fuse you and cut you.

00:12:56.000 Yeah.

00:12:58.000 Here's another interesting thing.

00:12:59.000 You can look at x-rays of people's spines that look so horrible, you can't imagine that they can move.

00:13:04.000 And they have nothing, no symptoms.

00:13:06.000 And you can look at other x-rays that look perfect and people are disabled by pain.

00:13:10.000 So there's a very low correlation between physical findings and subjective experience.

00:13:16.000 Now, what does Sarno recommend?

00:13:17.000 He recommends going about your business.

00:13:20.000 Going about your business.

00:13:21.000 Yeah, ignoring it, going about your business, and if possible, try to figure out what message your mind is sending down there.

00:13:28.000 But basically, it's reassurance that it'll go away on its own.

00:13:31.000 So when he does these lectures and he has people, cures him of it, he's just reassuring them that everything's going to be okay?

00:13:39.000 No, he's explaining this process.

00:13:40.000 He calls it tension myositis syndrome and he explains the mechanism of how it works.

00:13:45.000 One friend of mine, he was in his late 20s, played a lot of basketball, had a very serious herniated disc.

00:13:53.000 He was within hours of having neurological surgery, spinal surgery, and I yelled at him to read this book and see Sarno.

00:14:00.000 He was in New York.

00:14:01.000 And he said, I don't believe any of that. 1.00

00:14:03.000 It's all bullshit. 1.00

00:14:03.000 And I said, go. 1.00

00:14:04.000 Go see him.

00:14:05.000 So we went to the evening lectures, thought this was nonsense, went home, was having dinner, and realized his back pain was gone.

00:14:13.000 Never had surgery.

00:14:15.000 Jesus Christ.

00:14:16.000 Yeah, really.

00:14:17.000 No, there's got to be something to that, right?

00:14:20.000 There's something to the placebo effect, right?

00:14:23.000 So if that is a real thing, if you can convince your body that it's got the medicine that it needs and it starts to heal even though there's no medicine, there's got to be something that is working against you as well with the wrong mindset, right?

00:14:36.000 Look, it's funny to me to hear people rediscovering the placebo effect now.

00:14:39.000 I wrote a book in 1983 called Health and Healing.

00:14:42.000 I had two chapters in there on placebos.

00:14:44.000 And what I wrote is that the greatest problem is that we, you know, when we talk about placebos, it's in phrases like, how do you know that's not just a placebo effect?

00:14:53.000 The most interesting word there is just.

00:14:55.000 Or we have to rule out the placebo effect.

00:14:57.000 We should be ruling it in, man.

00:14:59.000 That's the meat of medicine.

00:15:00.000 That's pure healing from within, mediated by belief, unmixed up with the direct effects of treatment.

00:15:06.000 That's what you want to make happen more of the time.

00:15:08.000 It just is a mindfuck for a lot of people because they're like, how am I tricking myself into getting better?

00:15:12.000 Why can't I just do it?

00:15:13.000 Because that must have something to do with the structure of the brain.

00:15:16.000 That the part of the brain in which our will is doesn't connect directly to the machinery of the body, to the autonomic nervous system.

00:15:25.000 So you have to find some way of getting around that.

00:15:27.000 One way is to project belief onto something external and then let it work for you.

00:15:32.000 Yeah.

00:15:33.000 But that's so strange that the mind works that way.

00:15:36.000 It would seem like, wouldn't it be an evolutionary advantage just to have it at access?

00:15:40.000 Sure, that'd be nice, but that's the same thing.

00:15:42.000 It's a similar problem to, why can't you just get high without taking a drug?

00:15:47.000 The high is in your brain, not in the drug.

00:15:49.000 The drug is a trigger that releases it.

00:15:51.000 Why can't we just sit down and say, well, I'm going to be high for the next ten minutes?

00:15:54.000 It's the same thing.

00:15:55.000 We don't have access to those controls.

00:15:58.000 It just seems like that one, though, Healing.

00:16:01.000 Yeah.

00:16:02.000 Getting better.

00:16:02.000 That one seems like it's something that we should, as a culture, concentrate on.

00:16:06.000 For sure.

00:16:07.000 What we really concentrate on is actual medicine.

00:16:10.000 But one way to concentrate on that is by giving people greater confidence in their body's ability to do that.

00:16:15.000 And doctors have great power to do that because patients project a lot of belief on them.

00:16:19.000 I've had many patients over the years who said that the most important thing I did for them was that I was the only doctor who told them they could get better.

00:16:26.000 I mean, astonishing.

00:16:29.000 Yeah.

00:16:31.000 Is it because doctors are just seeing too many patients and they're overwhelmed and they got legal bills and they have...

00:16:36.000 I think some...

00:16:37.000 I've thought about this a lot.

00:16:38.000 And there's also the negative side of this.

00:16:41.000 I've seen what...

00:16:42.000 There's something called medical hexing in which doctors say things that actually interfere with healing or cause people to get worse.

00:16:49.000 And I think a lot of this is done unconsciously.

00:16:52.000 So here's one of my thoughts.

00:16:54.000 In their training...

00:16:56.000 Well, doctors see a very skewed sample of sick people.

00:16:59.000 They see very sick people in hospitals.

00:17:01.000 And in that group, healing is less likely to happen.

00:17:04.000 But if you look at the total spectrum of illness, the vast majority of things get better on their own.

00:17:10.000 So I think, you know...

00:17:12.000 Observing in yourself, wound healing is a good one to start with, to get greater confidence in your body's ability to do things.

00:17:20.000 That's really valuable.

00:17:21.000 So, but this, obviously, you're not talking about catastrophic injuries.

00:17:25.000 You're just talking about general wellness.

00:17:27.000 I think even in the case of catastrophic injury, this stuff operates.

00:17:31.000 I worked a lot with hypnotherapists over the years.

00:17:34.000 And one of my colleagues did a lot of work in training paramedics to be really careful about what you say around unconscious people who have been massively injured.

00:17:44.000 You know, if a paramedic takes an automobile accident victim and they're putting them in and says, this one's a goner, that is a bad thing.

00:17:52.000 You know, the unconscious mind hears that.

00:17:55.000 And on the other hand, you say something opposite to a person.

00:17:58.000 You can see cases where you can stop bleeding in unconscious people severely injured just by giving them suggestions.

00:18:05.000 Whoa.

00:18:06.000 Yeah.

00:18:07.000 So when you're saying someone's a goner, you trigger stress or you trigger helplessness?

00:18:14.000 Like what is happening?

00:18:15.000 Well, to have a medically trained person tell you that you're not going to live, that's a curse.

00:18:20.000 Yeah.

00:18:20.000 That's a medical hex.

00:18:22.000 How strange is it that sometimes your life is hanging on the border of you believing you're going to be okay and you believing you're not going to be okay?

00:18:29.000 So you want to be very careful about, you know, whose hands you place yourself in.

00:18:33.000 Yes.

00:18:34.000 You never want to stay in treatment with a doctor who thinks you can't get better.

00:18:38.000 A negative doctor.

00:18:39.000 Yeah.

00:18:39.000 Well, doctors are just like every other occupation.

00:18:42.000 There's people that are really good at it and are really concentrated and focused, and there's people that are half-assing it.

00:18:46.000 Well, the ones I train through our University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine get it.

00:18:51.000 We've graduated about 1,600 physicians now from very intensive training.

00:18:56.000 They're in practice all over the country teaching other people.

00:18:58.000 This is a good thing.

00:18:59.000 Now when you say integrative medicine, when they're in practice, are they essentially general practitioners?

00:19:04.000 No, we've trained people from all specialties.

00:19:06.000 Any specialty you can name, we've trained them.

00:19:07.000 So orthopedic surgeons?

00:19:10.000 Neurologists, dermatologists, anything you can name.

00:19:12.000 Whatever it is.

00:19:12.000 And so you try to tend to look at them?

00:19:15.000 We teach them all the things they didn't get in medical school.

00:19:18.000 Nutrition, mind-body interactions, strengths and weaknesses of alternative medicine, herbal medicine, all that.

00:19:23.000 Like say someone comes to you and maybe they have a bad case of psoriasis or some autoimmune issue like that.

00:19:28.000 Prime target for mind-body medicine, for traditional Chinese medicine, which often works well in that.

00:19:36.000 Dietary change, put people on an anti-inflammatory diet, use of natural products that reduce inflammation.

00:19:42.000 So there's a wide range of things to choose from.

00:19:44.000 And this does not reject conventional treatment.

00:19:47.000 You know, we may use conventional medication, but if you do, I recommend using the lowest dose to the least potent agent.

00:19:55.000 Start off with that, and you can ramp up if you need to. 0.96

00:19:57.000 Well, a lot of people, and me, I'm definitely guilty of this, they hear terms like holistic or Eastern medicine or Chinese medicine, you go, bullshit, right? 0.92

00:20:08.000 Well, I have a good bullshit detector, too, and so I'm really careful about what I accept and what I don't. 0.99

00:20:16.000 What do you not buy into when you see your bullshit detector? 0.99

00:20:20.000 All right, I'll give you an example. 0.99

00:20:22.000 I can't see any basis for crystal healing.

00:20:26.000 Oh, bro, I've got a crystal in my pocket right now.

00:20:28.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:20:29.000 All right, well, too bad. 1.00

00:20:31.000 Damn. 0.99

00:20:31.000 How about the colonic irrigation people that tell you that they see watermelon seeds coming out and you haven't eaten a watermelon in months? 0.99

00:20:40.000 That's bullshit. 0.96

00:20:41.000 The lining of the GI tract sloughed off and is regenerated every 24 hours. 0.99

00:20:46.000 There's no way that things can get encrusted there.

00:20:49.000 Yeah.

00:20:49.000 That's a weird one, the colonic thing, because...

00:20:53.000 Your body has all this natural bacteria that you're supposed to keep in there, right?

00:20:57.000 Not only keep in there, we're finding out that that's like more and more a really important determinant of everything, of general health, of mental health, too.

00:21:04.000 Fascinating.

00:21:05.000 Yeah, whose idea was it to start doing those colonics? 1.00

00:21:08.000 That must go way back.

00:21:09.000 That's kind of like, you know...

00:21:11.000 It's a wacky idea.

00:21:12.000 Yeah.

00:21:12.000 Pump some water up there.

00:21:13.000 See what's up.

00:21:14.000 Yeah.

00:21:15.000 And you have to stand there.

00:21:16.000 And it's addictive, too.

00:21:18.000 I see people get addicted to this.

00:21:19.000 Oh, Jesus.

00:21:20.000 Yeah.

00:21:20.000 Out of all the things.

00:21:21.000 Yeah, I won't go further into it.

00:21:24.000 My wife had it done once, and she was describing it to me.

00:21:26.000 I'm like, yeah, I'm going to pass.

00:21:27.000 Some lady's looking at the tube and telling you what's going on in there. 1.00

00:21:31.000 Some lady's looking at your shit? 1.00

00:21:33.000 Right. 1.00

00:21:34.000 It started as early as 1500 BC. Ebers Papyrus, an ancient Egyptian medical document, described the many benefits of colon cleansing.

00:21:43.000 In ancient times, the practice of cleansing the colon was administered in a river by using a hollow reed to induce water to flow into the rectum.

00:21:51.000 You don't want to drink downstream of that.

00:21:54.000 And, you know, there's no need to do this.

00:21:57.000 What you want to do is make sure that things are going through in the right direction regularly, and it cleans itself.

00:22:03.000 That's how it's supposed to do it, right?

00:22:04.000 Yeah.

00:22:05.000 Another big one, I hear all these people that talk about detox, detoxification.

00:22:13.000 Yeah.

00:22:31.000 You know, you put something into your body, the liver, within seconds of seeing a compound it has never seen before, can begin making a specific enzyme to take that apart and get rid of it.

00:22:42.000 Wow.

00:22:43.000 And you can amputate half of the liver and it can regenerate within 36 hours.

00:22:49.000 What?

00:22:49.000 Yes.

00:22:49.000 Liver's amazing.

00:22:50.000 36 hours?

00:22:51.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:52.000 So I thought when you gave someone like half your liver, if there was like a liver transplant issue, that it took a long time.

00:22:58.000 No, liver can regenerate really quickly.

00:22:59.000 That's insane.

00:23:00.000 And there's a natural product that you can take that most doctors don't learn about called milk thistle.

00:23:06.000 You've probably heard of that.

00:23:07.000 That revs up liver metabolisms. 0.80

00:23:09.000 So these are all simple ways to increase, but the first rule of detoxification, I'm sure you can guess, you stop putting toxic things in.

00:23:17.000 Aha! 0.94

00:23:18.000 Cut it off at the pass.

00:23:20.000 And let the body purify itself.

00:23:22.000 Yeah.

00:23:23.000 Well, what do you do when someone's a cigarette smoker?

00:23:26.000 You tell them to set a date to quit.

00:23:28.000 Set a date.

00:23:29.000 That's the most important thing, because each attempt to quit, it doesn't matter if you succeed, it's making the attempt to quit It goes into a reservoir of motivation that one day will be full enough that it's easy.

00:23:42.000 And this, by the way, happens with heroin addicts, happens with cigarette addicts.

00:23:46.000 I've seen many people, lifelong cigarette addicts, struggled, gave it up, came back.

00:23:51.000 One day they wake up and they look at stained fingers or a dirty ashtray, and they don't want to do it anymore, and it's easy.

00:23:57.000 There's no struggle.

00:23:58.000 Same thing with heroin addicts.

00:24:00.000 So it has to do with motivation.

00:24:01.000 You can't put that into another person.

00:24:03.000 And all you can do is arrange circumstances that maybe it'll happen.

00:24:07.000 So the most important thing is to help people to set a date to quit.

00:24:11.000 And it doesn't matter how long they stick with it.

00:24:13.000 But you're saying there's actually some strength to be gained from failed attempts?

00:24:17.000 Yes.

00:24:17.000 It's making the attempt that you get credit for.

00:24:19.000 Really?

00:24:20.000 Yeah.

00:24:20.000 Interesting.

00:24:21.000 Yeah.

00:24:22.000 So the more, like say if you're a drunk and you keep falling off the wagon, if you just keep making these attempts...

00:24:26.000 Yes.

00:24:27.000 No kidding.

00:24:28.000 Really?

00:24:29.000 So there's something ramps up in your mind that makes it more feasible for you to quit?

00:24:33.000 Yes, and when it happens, there's no struggle.

00:24:37.000 It's not an issue.

00:24:39.000 It's just you don't want to do it anymore.

00:24:40.000 Now, what do you do when people come to you and they're on antidepressants?

00:24:45.000 Well, I have a book called Spontaneous Happiness, which is about emotional wellness.

00:24:50.000 There's a lot there about antidepressants.

00:24:51.000 First of all, they don't work so well.

00:24:53.000 Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

00:24:56.000 It's hard to distinguish them from placebos, the popular ones, the SSRIs. 1.00

00:25:00.000 And now, because they don't work so well, you know what doctors do?

00:25:04.000 They add one.

00:25:04.000 They add an antipsychotic drug.

00:25:07.000 Horrifying.

00:25:08.000 These are like for major mental illness.

00:25:10.000 They're not things you just add on to make the antidepressant work better.

00:25:13.000 We've talked about that one ad nauseum on this podcast because it turned out to be the most prescribed drug in America.

00:25:19.000 I can't believe that.

00:25:21.000 That's just astounding.

00:25:22.000 Well, the word is that 25% of women between 40 and 50 are on antidepressants and 10% of adults in the country.

00:25:33.000 All right, now here's another thing.

00:25:34.000 That's a crazy number.

00:25:35.000 Well, first of all, the pharmaceutical companies have done a great job of convincing people that ordinary states of sadness...

00:25:42.000 Are problems of brain biochemistry that need to be treated with a drug.

00:25:46.000 We're not supposed to be happy all the time.

00:25:48.000 Secondly, there's a big problem with a lot of the medications that we use and antidepressants are a good example.

00:25:55.000 Most of the medications we use are counteractive.

00:25:58.000 You know, they oppose some process in the body.

00:26:01.000 So when you do that, the body pushes back against it.

00:26:04.000 That's called homeostasis.

00:26:05.000 You know, an easy example you can relate to is if you have a stuffed-up nose, you spray a drug in it that decongests you.

00:26:13.000 Miraculous, right?

00:26:14.000 You can breathe, and depending on which drug you use, two hours, four hours, it lasts.

00:26:18.000 But when it wears off, you have rebound congestion that's worse.

00:26:21.000 If you use another dose of the drug then, very easy to slide into...

00:26:25.000 How dare you, Jamie.

00:26:27.000 Very easy to slide into a state of dependence on it.

00:26:48.000 When you get off it, you're going to be in worse shape than you were to begin with.

00:26:51.000 And this now has a medical name.

00:26:53.000 It's called tardive dysphoria, meaning lingering bad mood due to the drug.

00:26:57.000 So the drug actually prolongs or intensifies the depression.

00:27:01.000 It may be okay for very short-term use of very severe depression, but these are not things you want to go on and stay on for lengths of time.

00:27:08.000 What's fascinating to me is when I talk to people that are on them that want to talk to you like they're on some cancer medication or they're on something that cures polio.

00:27:19.000 They make it seem like you're insensitive to the possibility that there's other solutions.

00:27:24.000 Right.

00:27:24.000 And there are many other solutions.

00:27:25.000 We have really good evidence for the antidepressant effect of physical activity.

00:27:30.000 Yes.

00:27:31.000 Both to prevent and treat.

00:27:33.000 Yeah.

00:27:33.000 We have very good evidence for supplemental fish oil, for omega-3 fatty acids to prevent and treat.

00:27:40.000 CBD as well.

00:27:41.000 All that.

00:27:41.000 And the microbiome looks like it's involved in our mental states as well.

00:27:45.000 So, you know, there's so many different ways of it.

00:27:46.000 Yeah, CBD for sure.

00:27:47.000 So again, it gets back to inflammation.

00:27:50.000 And it gets back to an integrative approach and not just relying on a single thing like a pharmaceutical treatment.

00:27:56.000 Yeah, I've talked to intelligent people that are on SSRIs in one form or another, and even ones that have struggled, were on one for a while, and then it stopped working, and then they tried another one, and then they're combining ones, and they're on this weird sort of chemical rollercoaster,

00:28:12.000 and they reject any possible notion that there's other alternatives, especially when you bring up the exercise one.

00:28:18.000 Right. 0.99

00:28:18.000 I bring up the exercise one and they go, oh, this fucking meathead and this exercise. 0.99

00:28:21.000 We just stop. 0.99

00:28:22.000 And I'm like, I'm telling you.

00:28:25.000 We did this thing with my friends called Sober October.

00:28:28.000 And what we did is no alcohol, no anything for the month of October.

00:28:32.000 But also we did this fitness challenge.

00:28:34.000 And we got real carried away, and we're all competing against each other with this heart rate out.

00:28:38.000 So we're working out three hours, four hours a day.

00:28:40.000 It was crazy.

00:28:41.000 But what was interesting about it to me was not just that your body sort of adapts when you force it to work out that many hours, but that your mood is phenomenal.

00:28:50.000 I felt so good.

00:28:52.000 And I was telling everybody, if you could take what I... Like, I don't feel that good right now.

00:28:56.000 I mean, I feel great, but I don't feel as good as I did during October, because I was working out four hours a day.

00:29:02.000 It was, if you could get that in pill form, you would take it every day.

00:29:07.000 If there was no side effects, because it literally removed anxiety, all the internal chatter, all the negative chatter, it was gone.

00:29:16.000 Everything seemed amazing.

00:29:18.000 True.

00:29:18.000 And there are side effects of physical activity are great.

00:29:21.000 You know, it revs up immune function, improves digestion, improves sleep, all that.

00:29:25.000 You mentioned anxiety.

00:29:26.000 By far and away, the most effective treatment I've found for anxiety is a simple breathing technique.

00:29:33.000 Regulating the breath.

00:29:34.000 I've seen this work for the most extreme forms of panic disorder.

00:29:37.000 And the drugs that we use for anxiety are the worst.

00:29:40.000 The benzodiazepines.

00:29:41.000 Highly addictive.

00:29:43.000 Mess with your mind.

00:29:44.000 Yeah, I have a good friend who has an issue with anxiety medication, and he takes it all the time, and when he doesn't take it, apparently it has that rebound effect.

00:29:53.000 Rebound, exactly, right.

00:29:54.000 He gets horribly anxious.

00:29:56.000 Well, these are handed out like candy, and nobody warns people how addictive they are.

00:30:00.000 It's a worse addiction than opiate addiction.

00:30:03.000 Xanax?

00:30:04.000 Yeah.

00:30:04.000 Really?

00:30:05.000 Yeah.

00:30:06.000 I did not know that.

00:30:07.000 Harder to get off of than opioids.

00:30:09.000 Wow.

00:30:10.000 Now, how do you feel about psychedelic interventions when it comes to addictions?

00:30:17.000 It seems that we're hearing more and more about that.

00:30:20.000 I know you have a background in that as well.

00:30:22.000 Well, we're especially hearing about Iboga and Ibogaine.

00:30:25.000 This is the African psychedelic.

00:30:27.000 And there are clinics and people using this that claim great success.

00:30:30.000 I don't have first-hand experience.

00:30:32.000 I only know what I've heard and what I've talked to people.

00:30:34.000 Me too.

00:30:35.000 But sounds good.

00:30:36.000 And I think that most of the psychedelics are so non-toxic.

00:30:40.000 So safe, and in the right hands, I think there's many possibilities for good outcomes.

00:30:46.000 Yeah, they've also had some pretty good results with cigarette cessation, right?

00:30:50.000 Yep.

00:30:50.000 With not just Iboga, but even with psilocybin.

00:30:53.000 Yep.

00:30:55.000 They did a study where they show the difference between someone taking psilocybin to try to quit smoking cigarettes and some really large number of people, I think it was in the neighborhood of 80%, quit.

00:31:08.000 And then over the course of X amount of years, they were still at 60%.

00:31:13.000 So only 20% of those people had come back.

00:31:14.000 That's great.

00:31:15.000 But with other methods, the number was much smaller, somewhere in the range of 20% or 15% after six years.

00:31:23.000 A lot of them just went back to it.

00:31:25.000 What do you make of the microdosing phenomenon?

00:31:27.000 I mean, this is pretty astounding to see this happening. 0.99

00:31:29.000 Bunch of pussies who are scared to jump all the way in. 1.00

00:31:32.000 Just get it all in at one big scary dose, man. 1.00

00:31:36.000 Why do you want to medicate every day?

00:31:38.000 That's kind of how I feel.

00:31:40.000 No, I'm just joking around.

00:31:42.000 I think I know people who have experienced some pretty severe benefits of it, especially people that weren't doing so good health-wise and were just really kind of feeling down and depressed, and all of a sudden their outlook radically changed, particularly psilocybin,

00:31:57.000 microdosing.

00:31:58.000 I know a lot of people who are doing that.

00:31:59.000 Yeah, same.

00:32:00.000 I have a lot of hope that Oregon becomes the first state to...

00:32:04.000 Sounds like it's close.

00:32:05.000 Yeah, to legalize psilocybin.

00:32:07.000 That'd be a big one.

00:32:08.000 It would be gigantic, and I think once we realize that no one's dying and a lot of people are getting helped, and a lot of people that are terminal are having some really amazing alleviation of anxiety and understanding that it's going to be okay.

00:32:23.000 And just, I think, between friends and just the camaraderie, it sort of...

00:32:32.000 When you have these group experiences together, there's some incredible benefits to that in terms of reinforcing community and civilization, the way we feel about each other.

00:32:43.000 Now, aside from the psychological and emotional benefits, I think you would be fascinated by some of the things that I've observed and written about of real physical benefits of psychedelics.

00:32:53.000 I'll just tell you a couple.

00:32:55.000 When I was in my late 20s, I did a lot of experiments.

00:32:59.000 This was in the 70s with LSD, mostly with LSD. I had a lifelong allergy to cats.

00:33:05.000 If a cat got near me, my eyes would itch.

00:33:08.000 My nose would run.

00:33:09.000 If a cat licked me, I'd get highs where it licked me. 0.59

00:33:11.000 So I always, you know, avoided them and didn't let them touch me.

00:33:14.000 So I took LSD with a group of friends on a spring day.

00:33:16.000 I was living in Virginia.

00:33:18.000 Fabulous.

00:33:18.000 You know, I was outside running around having a lot of fun.

00:33:21.000 And in the middle of this, a cat jumped into my lap.

00:33:23.000 And I had a moment of, like, trying to defend myself, and then I thought, this is silly, you know?

00:33:27.000 And I relaxed, played with the cat, had no allergic reaction, and never did ever after.

00:33:34.000 What?

00:33:35.000 Instant disappearance of an allergy that had been there all my life.

00:33:38.000 What would be the physiological mechanism for something like that?

00:33:41.000 Well, clearly that's a very profound mind-body interaction.

00:33:44.000 Now, we know that allergies are influenced by that because you can show a person allergic to roses, a plastic rose, and they'll have an allergy.

00:33:52.000 So there's a learned component to allergy that can be unlearned.

00:33:56.000 I did not know that.

00:33:57.000 Yeah, interesting.

00:33:58.000 Now, all right, this is even more dramatic.

00:34:00.000 Maybe a year later, same thing.

00:34:02.000 It was LSD in the spring.

00:34:03.000 I had also grown up with very fair skin and was told I couldn't get tan.

00:34:08.000 And we used to go down to the Jersey Shore.

00:34:10.000 I remember innumerable times getting second-degree burns, sheets of skin peeling off, Noxzema at night.

00:34:17.000 We didn't have sunscreen in those days.

00:34:19.000 Right.

00:34:20.000 So I just accepted that's how I was, you know, I can't get tanned.

00:34:23.000 So again, high on LSD, lying out naked in my great woods in my home in Virginia, and the sun was up there, and I thought, this is ridiculous, you know, I should not be afraid of the sun.

00:34:37.000 The next day I got tanned and I have ever since.

00:34:40.000 Now that's a little more, I'm not quite sure of the mechanism there, but it's pretty amazing.

00:34:44.000 How long were you outside for though?

00:34:45.000 Because if you're outside long enough, you're going to get burnt.

00:34:48.000 I was out in good time.

00:34:50.000 You know, I would have normally have, yeah, at least I would have had my usual reaction.

00:34:54.000 But my skin got tan.

00:34:55.000 It never had in my life.

00:34:56.000 So what are you suggesting happened?

00:34:59.000 Again, you know, there must be a way in which the nervous system influences melanocytes, which are, you know, the pigment cells in the body that can either extend their, you know, projections with pigment granules.

00:35:12.000 So the nervous system controls that and the mind connects the nervous system.

00:35:15.000 But what about someone who's, like, ridiculously fair? 0.99

00:35:18.000 Like, what about someone who lives in Scotland or some shit? 0.96

00:35:19.000 Well, see, what I would do is, when Dr. Weil's psychedelic clinic opens, I would have, like... 0.98

00:35:25.000 When's that going to open?

00:35:26.000 Well, we'll see.

00:35:26.000 But there'll be an allergy program, right?

00:35:28.000 You go in on the first day, you take a full dose of something, and you're exposed to the allergen, and, you know...

00:35:34.000 Magic happens.

00:35:36.000 And then you come in for 10 sessions with a decreasing dose.

00:35:39.000 And at some point, you're just getting a placebo and you don't know when that is.

00:35:42.000 And people are trained to lose their allergies.

00:35:44.000 I think you do the same thing with suntanning.

00:35:47.000 Maybe not with people from Scotland because they've got fewer pigment cells.

00:35:51.000 But I wouldn't rule it out.

00:35:53.000 I'll tell you one more.

00:35:55.000 Also from this period, I told you I was playing with yoga.

00:35:58.000 There was one posture I couldn't do.

00:36:00.000 The plow, where you lie on your back and try to touch your toes behind your head.

00:36:05.000 I got to where I could get my toes to a foot from the floor and I had excruciating pain in my neck.

00:36:10.000 And as much as I tried that, I made no progress.

00:36:13.000 So I was on the verge of giving up.

00:36:15.000 I thought I was too old.

00:36:15.000 I was 28. So again, in an LSD state, my body was feeling totally elastic.

00:36:21.000 I thought, oh, I had to try that.

00:36:23.000 So I'm lowering my feet.

00:36:25.000 I thought I had a foot to go, and they touched the ground.

00:36:27.000 I couldn't believe it.

00:36:28.000 I raised it, lowered it.

00:36:29.000 Oh, wow, fantastic.

00:36:30.000 The next day, I tried to do it.

00:36:32.000 I got within a foot of the ground.

00:36:33.000 I had excruciating pain in my neck.

00:36:35.000 But now, I knew it was possible.

00:36:37.000 Before that, I didn't know it was possible.

00:36:39.000 So knowing it was possible, I was motivated to keep at it, and in a few weeks I was able to do it.

00:36:44.000 If I had not had that experience, I would have given up.

00:36:47.000 So I think this is the magic of these things.

00:36:49.000 They can show you possibilities.

00:36:51.000 They don't necessarily teach you how to maintain them, but they can show you the things that are possible you'd never believe.

00:36:57.000 Well, it didn't even seem like it was just showing you a possibility.

00:36:59.000 It was actually showing you a capability.

00:37:01.000 Like you were capable of moving in a way that you didn't think you were moving before.

00:37:05.000 And it was because of your own tension and...

00:37:08.000 Worry?

00:37:08.000 Yeah, probably learned patterns of tension that had built up all my life.

00:37:12.000 And maybe some, because of the conscious, or the psychedelic state rather, there's some alleviation of tension.

00:37:18.000 Or my mind was out of the way.

00:37:20.000 Right.

00:37:20.000 Yeah.

00:37:22.000 Hmm.

00:37:22.000 Well, you do, you definitely sense that with marijuana, particularly edible marijuana.

00:37:27.000 You can really get good stretching in with edible marijuana.

00:37:31.000 It's almost like you... 0.90

00:37:32.000 I mean, I hate to use certain terms to just, like, trigger people's bullshit alarms, but you can feel more of the muscle. 0.86

00:37:43.000 You can feel more of what it's doing. 0.95

00:37:46.000 Right.

00:37:48.000 I've been involved in martial arts and athletics most of my life, so I have a good awareness of my body.

00:37:56.000 But it's way better when I eat edible marijuana.

00:38:00.000 I feel...

00:38:01.000 I understand...

00:38:02.000 I can practice moves better, certain kicking techniques.

00:38:06.000 I'm better if I'm more in tune with how everything's working together.

00:38:11.000 Whereas sometimes I can do it if I'm sober, but it's...

00:38:16.000 I'm almost like there's a prophylactic between me and my body.

00:38:19.000 There's a numbness to it that gets removed by edible marijuana.

00:38:23.000 One other I'm fascinated by.

00:38:25.000 This was with MDMA. I lived in a ranch outside of Tucson and I had pathways that had...

00:38:32.000 You know, sort of large gravel.

00:38:34.000 And I could not walk on that barefoot.

00:38:36.000 It really hurt my feet.

00:38:37.000 And if I stood on them, you could see dents in my feet.

00:38:42.000 On MDMA, I was able to like dance on those stones, no pain.

00:38:46.000 But the interesting thing is there were no marks on my feet.

00:38:48.000 So the pain is easy to figure out how that happens.

00:38:51.000 But what's happening that, you know, you don't get a dent?

00:38:54.000 I mean, it seems to me If your mind is out of the way, maybe little muscles there are free to press back with just the amount of force to neutralize the pressure.

00:39:05.000 It's like if your mind is not interfering, I think the body has amazing capabilities. 0.99

00:39:10.000 Well, I definitely think you can mindfuck yourself, right? 0.99

00:39:13.000 And you can definitely think, ah, oh God, this is... 1.00

00:39:15.000 You can start thinking it's worse than it is.

00:39:17.000 And if you can relax, oftentimes, there's many situations where you relax and things aren't nearly as bad as you are making them out to be.

00:39:26.000 So that could be some...

00:39:28.000 I'm with you on everything except the tanning.

00:39:31.000 It happened.

00:39:32.000 I experienced it.

00:39:34.000 That's one of those things like Bigfoot.

00:39:35.000 You should just keep it to yourself.

00:39:37.000 If you see Bigfoot, you're supposed to just go, I'm not going to explain this.

00:39:41.000 I'm not going to keep that to myself.

00:39:43.000 When people tell me things that I have no experience of, I'm always willing to entertain the possibility.

00:39:50.000 But then I've got to experience it for myself.

00:39:52.000 I'm willing to entertain it dependent upon who I'm talking to.

00:39:55.000 Right.

00:39:56.000 Because there's some kooky people out there and you will entertain possibility after possibility.

00:40:00.000 Yes.

00:40:01.000 Until you die and you realize you wrote one big Dr. Seuss book. 1.00

00:40:06.000 Some people are just crazy. 0.97

00:40:08.000 You know, we have to accept that. 0.92

00:40:09.000 True.

00:40:10.000 There's no doubt about it, but I am absolutely aware that there's some component, there's something about the mind and the way the mind interacts with matter and with life that has a profound effect on your body, and it would be really nice if we were all better at controlling that.

00:40:26.000 One of the insights that I've had in psychedelic states is that everything is conscious, that consciousness permeates everything, that I feel whatever in me, that my consciousness is also in rocks and in plants and in animals,

00:40:44.000 that there's some universal something out there.

00:40:47.000 And there are two really different ways of looking at reality.

00:40:53.000 One is the materialist one, which is that consciousness is a product of brain biochemistry and electricity and that is dominant in science today.

00:41:01.000 The other is that the brain is a receiving apparatus for consciousness and that consciousness is primary, maybe existed before matter, maybe organized matter into forms that are more and more able to experience themselves.

00:41:15.000 I don't know.

00:41:16.000 I don't think there's a way to prove one or the other.

00:41:18.000 It's just that, for me, The consciousness, the primary one, is more fun and makes life more interesting.

00:41:24.000 I'm sure you're familiar with Rupert Sheldrick.

00:41:26.000 Oh yeah, he's a good friend.

00:41:28.000 Very interesting guy.

00:41:29.000 He has an idea that everything has memory, right?

00:41:32.000 He believes that this would be like the reason, I guess, why some people would not want to live in a haunted house, right?

00:41:40.000 They would think that if someone was murdered in a house that it would retain some memory of these atrocities and that you would somehow or another interact with that if you were in that house.

00:41:50.000 So, like, spaces.

00:41:52.000 Like, my dad is not a very, um, he's not a woo-woo kind of guy.

00:41:57.000 But he went to Gettysburg.

00:41:58.000 And he was telling me that when he was at Gettysburg that it just, he felt profound sadness.

00:42:03.000 He's like, it just seems like it's just in the ground.

00:42:07.000 Like, the whole area. 0.99

00:42:08.000 He goes, I don't know how to describe it, but I wanted to get the fuck out of there.

00:42:11.000 Like, just being around this area where this battle had taken place and so many people had died. 0.90

00:42:17.000 I said, you could feel it.

00:42:19.000 I don't know if I buy it.

00:42:21.000 I mean, but he's not the kind of guy that would...

00:42:22.000 No, right.

00:42:23.000 But that's an example where somebody tells you something like that.

00:42:26.000 That's his experience.

00:42:27.000 I'm willing to entertain it.

00:42:28.000 I have to experience it myself.

00:42:30.000 Yeah.

00:42:30.000 But it also could be, you know, like, he got lucky and didn't get drafted during Vietnam.

00:42:37.000 And that's probably in his head that if he did get drafted, he might have died over there.

00:42:42.000 And for what reason, he wouldn't have experienced this life.

00:42:45.000 Yeah.

00:42:47.000 And then thinking about these young men that died in the same fashion for some war that didn't make any sense. 0.99

00:42:53.000 Like, why the fuck are they even fighting it? 0.99

00:42:57.000 And then having all these people die together in this one horrible battle in this one place. 0.99

00:43:03.000 It could have been he was playing a game on his mind.

00:43:06.000 Now, Joe, I want to talk to you about your language. 1.00

00:43:09.000 Why the fuck do you swear so much? 0.99

00:43:11.000 I don't know. 1.00

00:43:11.000 Have you read anything about the science of swearing? 1.00

00:43:13.000 No.

00:43:14.000 Do you know that there is a science of swearing?

00:43:16.000 A science?

00:43:16.000 Yes, it's pretty interesting stuff.

00:43:18.000 Oh.

00:43:18.000 So the part of your brain that produces swear words is not the part of the brain that manages ordinary language.

00:43:27.000 Oh.

00:43:27.000 Really interesting.

00:43:28.000 You know, we have two language centers in our left frontal cortex.

00:43:33.000 People that have strokes that damage them often lose language completely, but they can still swear.

00:43:39.000 So swearing is coming from somewhere else.

00:43:43.000 It may be coming from the right hemisphere, but it's also coming from deeper centers in the brain that connect to the limbic system and the amygdala, and that connects to the involuntary nervous system.

00:43:54.000 So here's a couple of interesting facts.

00:43:57.000 Swearing is associated with sweating, increased sweating.

00:44:00.000 So you should be dripping with sweat.

00:44:02.000 I haven't sweared that much.

00:44:03.000 I'm a comedian.

00:44:05.000 I'm sure it's uncomfortable for you.

00:44:06.000 Secondly, it's also interesting.

00:44:07.000 Swearing increases pain tolerance. 0.96

00:44:11.000 Interesting.

00:44:11.000 And there's an interesting experiment.

00:44:12.000 You know, the standard way they do pain tolerance, they have people stick their hand in a bucket of ice and water.

00:44:17.000 And you see how long they can keep it there. 1.00

00:44:19.000 The people who say, fuck shit! 1.00

00:44:22.000 Can keep it there much longer than people who are not allowed to swear. 1.00

00:44:26.000 What about noises?

00:44:27.000 What if they just go...

00:44:28.000 No, it was swearing specifically.

00:44:31.000 So they've tried noises and swearing?

00:44:33.000 Yeah, so it may be, you know, if you're hammering a nail and hit your thumb, you use one of those words, that's a good strategy.

00:44:40.000 That's interesting, because I almost always do that.

00:44:42.000 If I hurt something, especially a finger. 1.00

00:44:44.000 You know, like I slammed a finger in the car door the other day, and I went, motherfucker! 1.00

00:44:48.000 So that's what that is? 0.99

00:44:49.000 Yeah, and it's interesting.

00:44:51.000 There's a different part of the brain that manages that.

00:44:54.000 It has different emotional content.

00:44:56.000 Yeah, it flavors language.

00:44:58.000 Yes.

00:44:58.000 I like them.

00:44:59.000 I'm a big fan of the swears. 0.96

00:45:01.000 I'll leave you some papers about the science of swearing.

00:45:03.000 It's interesting.

00:45:04.000 Yeah, it's very interesting.

00:45:05.000 Now, what would happen if they were no longer taboo?

00:45:10.000 I think they'd lose their power.

00:45:12.000 Yeah, right.

00:45:13.000 The same areas of the brain wouldn't...

00:45:15.000 No.

00:45:15.000 I remember there was an episode of, I don't remember what television show, but it was on CBS. Yeah.

00:45:21.000 And they had a line at the end of the show, and essentially they were saying, shit happens. 0.99

00:45:27.000 And it was a big deal. 0.99

00:45:28.000 I'll bet. 1.00

00:45:29.000 It was a big deal that they wanted to be able to say, shit happens. 0.99

00:45:32.000 And apparently they pulled this off and they got it through, and it was like a 10 p.m. 0.99

00:45:36.000 show, so it was okay. 1.00

00:45:37.000 And it was 11 o'clock by the time they said shit. 0.99

00:45:39.000 And I remember thinking, wow, what a strange... 0.99

00:45:42.000 How many people were involved in this sort of dance?

00:45:46.000 How many lawyers and executives?

00:45:50.000 It's very strange that this one word...

00:45:53.000 Everybody knows the word.

00:45:55.000 It's not even that offensive.

00:45:56.000 So it's kind of a kind of game we all play, right?

00:45:59.000 Yes.

00:46:00.000 But you're saying this game is facilitated by one specific part of the brain, and is that because...

00:46:08.000 Swear words are taboo words, right?

00:46:10.000 They're taboo words and often associated with things that we find offensive or with bodily acts that freak people out.

00:46:17.000 So there's a psychological, social aspect to it, but there's also a neurological aspect to it.

00:46:23.000 Now, when the words, like some words for some people, like I remember when I was a kid, I lived in Florida for a little bit, and I said hell once, and in Florida in the 1970s, hell was a swear.

00:46:40.000 Yeah.

00:46:40.000 I don't know.

00:46:41.000 I mean, I came from New Jersey, and then I was in San Francisco, and then also I was in Florida, and I said, hell.

00:46:47.000 And they're like, don't swear like that in this class.

00:46:48.000 I was like, swear? 0.99

00:46:50.000 What the fuck are you people talking about? 0.99

00:46:52.000 Like, it didn't make any sense to me. 1.00

00:46:53.000 And I was like, you guys have different swears.

00:46:55.000 Yeah.

00:46:56.000 Now, if you had a word that was not taboo to you, would that same area of your brain be- I don't know.

00:47:07.000 There has not been a lot of research.

00:47:09.000 It hasn't been taken seriously, but that's all interesting questions that should be studied.

00:47:13.000 Yeah, because it- I mean, if you're a really super conservative person, there's a lot of words that are off the table. 0.99

00:47:19.000 But if you are far more loose with your language, you could shit this and this, goddammit. 0.99

00:47:27.000 That would be nothing. 1.00

00:47:28.000 Goddammit would be just like, ah, shucks. 0.98

00:47:31.000 Yeah. 0.93

00:47:32.000 But to someone, goddammit, it would be like a really big deal.

00:47:35.000 Bad, bad. 0.63

00:47:35.000 Yeah, really big deal. 0.63

00:47:36.000 So what it would be, different parts of the brain would be activated by that versus, if you said it, it would be not that big a deal, but if someone was like super conservative and they said it- Probably even, yeah, more.

00:47:48.000 Yeah, wow.

00:47:49.000 Yeah, interesting.

00:47:50.000 Do you think that that is a universal thing?

00:47:52.000 It seems to be universal.

00:47:54.000 It seems to be universal.

00:47:55.000 Another finding that I came across is that people who learn a second language, that swearing in the second language does not have the same emotional impact that your first language does.

00:48:04.000 Oh, that makes sense.

00:48:06.000 That's why they're so fun, when you learn Spanish swears.

00:48:09.000 It's like you get a free ride.

00:48:11.000 Yeah.

00:48:11.000 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:48:13.000 Yeah.

00:48:14.000 That makes sense.

00:48:15.000 Yeah, and you can do them on television, too.

00:48:18.000 Right?

00:48:19.000 You can say a lot of Spanish swears on English-speaking TV, and everybody just pleads ignorance. 0.79

00:48:25.000 So, does every language have...

00:48:27.000 They all have swears.

00:48:29.000 Every language has taboo words, swear words.

00:48:30.000 Wow.

00:48:31.000 Yeah, it's universal.

00:48:33.000 That is really interesting.

00:48:34.000 Asian languages, European languages, all of them, huh?

00:48:38.000 Wow.

00:48:39.000 Huh.

00:48:40.000 So that would...

00:48:53.000 Yeah, right.

00:49:06.000 You know what I mean?

00:49:07.000 I know exactly what you mean.

00:49:08.000 If you're talking to someone in every other word, like, well, I really wish you wouldn't use that language.

00:49:11.000 Well, okay.

00:49:12.000 There's so much work to do here.

00:49:14.000 I can't hold your hand.

00:49:16.000 Dance through this garden.

00:49:18.000 Right.

00:49:18.000 Yeah.

00:49:19.000 It's, to me, also, like, I hang around with a lot of people that swear a lot.

00:49:25.000 Because I hang around with professional comedians and fighters, and there's a lot of...

00:49:32.000 Swashbuckling, freewheeling type of individuals involved in those pursuits.

00:49:37.000 Now, there's some study suggesting that swearing is becoming more frequent in our society.

00:49:42.000 Do you think because of the internet?

00:49:44.000 I don't know.

00:49:44.000 It's a trend.

00:49:45.000 I'm not sure anybody knows why.

00:49:46.000 But, I mean, nobody would have been on the air like you are 20 years ago.

00:49:51.000 That's true.

00:49:52.000 Yeah.

00:49:52.000 Well, that is specifically because of the internet, because of a lack of regulation.

00:49:56.000 Yeah.

00:49:56.000 But even that, it's resisted in a lot of ways.

00:50:00.000 People are trying to figure out how to modulate this and how to handle it.

00:50:03.000 They'll never handle it.

00:50:04.000 No.

00:50:04.000 It seems like the genie's out of the bottle, right?

00:50:06.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:50:07.000 Yeah.

00:50:08.000 I think, ultimately, you find what you enjoy, and the best way to find what you enjoy is people actually doing what they want to do, and then you figure it out.

00:50:16.000 Exactly.

00:50:17.000 Yeah.

00:50:17.000 I mean, that seems to be what's happening in the world of the internet and podcasting and stuff like that.

00:50:21.000 Uh-huh.

00:50:23.000 It's also the access.

00:50:25.000 A person like you, you could just put together a podcast and if people find it interesting, if it resonates, you could get 100,000 downloads out of nowhere. 0.99

00:50:36.000 If you have a radio show, 100,000 people listening, that's a lot of damn people. 0.98

00:50:41.000 They'd be excited. 0.98

00:50:42.000 They're like, hey, Andrew, we got the monthlies in and you're doing great.

00:50:46.000 You got 100,000 people a day.

00:50:47.000 They'd be like... 0.99

00:50:48.000 Holy shit, this is a successful business. 0.99

00:50:50.000 But you could be doing that just from your office. 0.99

00:50:53.000 Just put together with a laptop and a microphone and no distribution whatsoever in terms of like no string of executives and gigantic corporation behind you.

00:51:03.000 You don't have all that.

00:51:04.000 And nobody telling you what you can say and can't say.

00:51:06.000 Yeah.

00:51:07.000 Well, that's one thing you get out of today that you never got out of before.

00:51:12.000 I've been involved in show business for many years, but only this kind of stuff for nine from doing this podcast.

00:51:20.000 And what I've seen with this is what's unusual, and I think what resonates with people, is that there isn't anybody else.

00:51:39.000 Yeah.

00:51:40.000 Yeah.

00:51:51.000 Now, for a guy like you, the internet is...

00:51:54.000 I would think that with some of your more controversial ideas, this is the way you could really air them out in long form.

00:52:00.000 Because if you...

00:52:01.000 Like a lot of doctors, they don't want to open their mind to anything outside of what they're practicing.

00:52:09.000 I've noticed.

00:52:10.000 Yeah.

00:52:10.000 I mean, it's got to be rough for you, right?

00:52:11.000 But I've never censored what I say.

00:52:13.000 I've always put it all out there.

00:52:15.000 Good for you.

00:52:15.000 Yeah.

00:52:16.000 I've done that all my life.

00:52:17.000 But don't you find that it's more...

00:52:21.000 Not just accepted, but people are more interested in it now because of the internet.

00:52:26.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:52:27.000 Yeah.

00:52:28.000 Absolutely.

00:52:29.000 Because I've heard about you for many, many years, but it's sort of ramped up over the last decade or so.

00:52:35.000 Right.

00:52:37.000 Yeah, because of the internet.

00:52:38.000 Right.

00:52:39.000 Because people have this...

00:52:40.000 But, you know, I've been around...

00:52:41.000 It's funny when I look at this stuff like, you know, all the stuff about pot and psychedelics, placebos.

00:52:46.000 I was saying this stuff in the 1970s.

00:52:49.000 You know, my first book, The Natural Mind, was published in 1972. It argued that everybody has an innate drive to alter their consciousness.

00:52:56.000 Yeah.

00:52:57.000 And that, you know, drugs are one way of doing it.

00:52:59.000 I did the first human experiments with pot that were ever done under double-blind conditions.

00:53:05.000 What experiments did you do?

00:53:06.000 I gave marijuana to people in a laboratory in 1968. And what did you test them for?

00:53:11.000 Well, we were just seeing, people bet me you couldn't do it.

00:53:14.000 Nobody had ever done this.

00:53:16.000 All this marijuana was becoming such a big thing and nobody, there were no experiments.

00:53:21.000 Like what kind of experience?

00:53:23.000 I took like the most basic stuff.

00:53:25.000 I just wanted to show that you could give it to human subjects in a lab and get away with it because people thought you couldn't.

00:53:30.000 You mean in terms of the FTC? In terms of law, lawsuits, everything.

00:53:34.000 One of the things I wanted to give it to people that never had it before so there'd be no expectations.

00:53:39.000 Everyone said, this is terrible.

00:53:41.000 You know, they're going to turn into heroin addicts from giving them stuff like that. 0.55

00:53:44.000 Anyway, I just wanted to see basic stuff like, does it dilate the pupils of the eyes?

00:53:48.000 Because cops were busting people.

00:53:50.000 You know, they'd say their eyes are dilated, must be high on marijuana, and they'd search.

00:53:54.000 But marijuana doesn't, we showed, doesn't dilate the pupils of the eyes.

00:53:58.000 I tested blood sugar because people said the reason people get hungry is because blood sugar drops has no effect on blood sugar.

00:54:06.000 We showed that, you know, people...

00:54:09.000 Who had never had marijuana before in a lab, you could show slight decreases in performance in motor function and cognitive function, but people who were regular users of it, you couldn't show that, that they had adapted to it.

00:54:23.000 Yeah, my take on that is that I think the people that are not regular users are freaking out.

00:54:28.000 Yeah.

00:54:28.000 And because they're nervous.

00:54:30.000 It's novel sensations and they don't know what to do with it.

00:54:32.000 Yeah.

00:54:33.000 And they just don't know how to relax.

00:54:35.000 Right.

00:54:36.000 Yeah.

00:54:36.000 I mean, that's the big one to me with physical movement.

00:54:39.000 Yeah.

00:54:40.000 Because they want to test drivers and all sorts of other things for marijuana.

00:54:44.000 I'm like, this is not alcohol.

00:54:46.000 You're talking about a completely different thing.

00:54:48.000 If I had a choice of being a passenger with these drivers, I'll tell you which one I would take.

00:54:54.000 A person who had never used marijuana and had just smoked.

00:54:58.000 A person who was a user of marijuana and had just smoked but had never driven high.

00:55:03.000 A person who was a regular user of marijuana and had practiced driving high.

00:55:06.000 And a person with any amount of alcohol in their system.

00:55:09.000 I'd take the third as the best bet.

00:55:11.000 Yes, the third is the best bet.

00:55:12.000 Yeah, that guy's a wizard, I bet.

00:55:14.000 That guy drives high every day.

00:55:15.000 Yeah, so he's used to it.

00:55:17.000 Not going to show any effect on his performance.

00:55:19.000 Yeah, the experience is a novel experience.

00:55:22.000 If you're accustomed to it, then it's just like, here we go, this is my normal world.

00:55:27.000 And for many people, you have to learn to get high.

00:55:29.000 You have to learn to associate the subtle physical cues with the altered state.

00:55:33.000 That's a common thing.

00:55:35.000 People feel nothing the first time they try it.

00:55:37.000 Yeah, you do hear that, right? 0.99

00:55:38.000 But I don't think they know what the fuck they're talking about. 1.00

00:55:40.000 Like, bro, you're high as fuck. 1.00

00:55:42.000 Now, when you did these experiments, did you have to clear these with the FDA? You would not believe. 1.00

00:55:50.000 What did you have to do?

00:55:51.000 I had to get permission from the FDA, which said that I couldn't do it unless I first got permission from, it was the old Federal Bureau of Narcotics, which was the Treasury guys.

00:56:00.000 Right.

00:56:00.000 The Federal Bureau of Narcotics said, we'll give you permission once the FDA gives you permission.

00:56:04.000 So they played that off.

00:56:06.000 Then I had to get permission from the state of Massachusetts, from two agencies there.

00:56:09.000 And there were two universities involved, Harvard University and Boston University.

00:56:13.000 So coordinating all this stuff was unbelievable.

00:56:16.000 And then once all the approvals came in, I had to get the pot, and there was no legal source of it.

00:56:21.000 So the Federal Bureau of Narcotics gave me confiscated pot that they had confiscated in some case in Texas.

00:56:28.000 They brought it over.

00:56:29.000 They had delayed us so long I didn't even know if I had time to do the experiments because I was going to graduate.

00:56:34.000 Anyway, they brought this stuff on a Friday afternoon. 1.00

00:56:36.000 It was shit. 0.99

00:56:37.000 I mean, it was brown, dry. 1.00

00:56:39.000 It looked like it had been sitting in a warehouse for years.

00:56:41.000 So the first thing I did was roll up a joint and smoke it.

00:56:43.000 No effect, whatever.

00:56:44.000 I called the agent that I dealt with and I said, this stuff is no good.

00:56:48.000 And he said, how do you know?

00:56:49.000 You haven't had time to run any experiments.

00:56:50.000 And I said, I looked at it under the microscope and there was no resin on it.

00:56:54.000 So they grumbled and they gave me other stuff which was passable.

00:56:57.000 But again, confiscated stuff.

00:57:00.000 Yeah.

00:57:01.000 Because we always used to hear when we were kids about government weed.

00:57:04.000 The government weed was the good weed.

00:57:06.000 Do you remember that?

00:57:07.000 That was later when research got going and the government started a pot farm in Mississippi to provide pot for research, which was much better.

00:57:17.000 And there was only a handful of people that were under these experiments, correct?

00:57:21.000 They made it so difficult to conduct research, as they have with psychedelics.

00:57:26.000 No, that's slowly changing now.

00:57:28.000 Yeah.

00:57:29.000 Well, you know Rick Strassman?

00:57:31.000 Sure.

00:57:31.000 Yeah.

00:57:34.000 The spirit molecule and he did all those tests with those people.

00:57:37.000 That was really groundbreaking stuff because doing it at the University of New Mexico and doing it under clinical conditions, they were able to document the similarities between all these people's psychedelic experiences and do this with government approval, which I thought was really fascinating.

00:57:51.000 Fascinating.

00:57:52.000 Yeah, and the fact that they did it and the information's out and then there's been very little movement in that direction.

00:58:00.000 It's kind of just like, okay, now we know.

00:58:02.000 But look, everybody's fine.

00:58:04.000 It's a lot of benefit.

00:58:05.000 Do we want to act on this?

00:58:07.000 It takes decades.

00:58:09.000 It takes forever.

00:58:10.000 And plus, what research was done all along, it was primarily to look for negative effects.

00:58:16.000 You know, nobody who wanted to look for positive effects got permission and funding.

00:58:21.000 That's interesting. 0.98

00:58:22.000 So you have to kind of frame the proposal in a way that, like, these kids are fucking themselves up. 0.99

00:58:27.000 We're going to prove it, sir. 0.98

00:58:29.000 So that's changing.

00:58:30.000 But, you know, the big stumbling block now, we've got to get cannabis out of that federal Schedule I. That's, like, causing a lot of problems.

00:58:38.000 Yeah, there's been some noise about decriminalizing it federally, which is like step one, I guess.

00:58:45.000 That's the big stumble block.

00:58:46.000 I'll give you one example.

00:58:47.000 I'm involved with a group called Maui Wellness Group.

00:58:51.000 I'm the chief science officer.

00:58:53.000 Maui, Hawaii?

00:58:54.000 Yeah, we got the first dispensary license and growing operation over there.

00:58:58.000 Oh, nice.

00:58:58.000 Very good outfit.

00:58:59.000 Is it legal in Hawaii?

00:59:01.000 How does it work?

00:59:01.000 For medical, not for recreational.

00:59:03.000 Like how sick you have to be.

00:59:05.000 It's okay.

00:59:07.000 They're allowing you.

00:59:08.000 But there's specified conditions.

00:59:10.000 Hawaii is more uptight than a lot of other states, but it's happening.

00:59:14.000 But our licenses for Maui County, which includes Maui, Molokai, and Lanai.

00:59:20.000 So people from Molokai and Lanai can come to Maui to buy product in our dispensary, but they can't take it back because the waters between the island are federal.

00:59:29.000 What if they throw it?

00:59:31.000 Still has to cross the water.

00:59:32.000 Oh, it's no good. 0.91

00:59:33.000 But that's ridiculous. 0.79

00:59:34.000 The waters are federal. 0.74

00:59:35.000 That's hilarious. 0.95

00:59:36.000 That's the kind of ridiculous situation. 0.76

00:59:37.000 So better to be on Maui and not go to Lani. 0.58

00:59:40.000 Better to be on Lani.

00:59:40.000 Right.

00:59:41.000 You've got to go to Maui to get high.

00:59:42.000 Yeah.

00:59:42.000 That's great.

00:59:42.000 What if you're really sick?

00:59:43.000 What if you have cancer or something like that?

00:59:46.000 And you live on Lanai.

00:59:47.000 Yeah, well...

00:59:48.000 You've got to violate the law.

00:59:49.000 Yeah, we have to violate the law.

00:59:49.000 But if you have it in Lanai, you're okay.

00:59:52.000 So can you grow it?

00:59:54.000 No.

00:59:54.000 You can only grow it if you have a license, and the only license is for Maui.

00:59:57.000 Jesus Christ.

00:59:58.000 Yeah.

00:59:59.000 We've got to change this. 0.80

01:00:00.000 California was really ridiculous when they were doing medical. 0.64

01:00:03.000 Like, you could just basically go in there and go, like, I can't sleep. 0.92

01:00:05.000 And they'd go, okay.

01:00:06.000 Yeah.

01:00:07.000 It was nothing.

01:00:08.000 Like, I had friends that had, like, long, elaborate excuses they had planned out.

01:00:13.000 Like, you know, I was in a car accident while I was six, and when I go to bed at night, I have these horrible dreams, and the only thing that helps me is marijuana, and I'm just trying to feed my family, and they would go, stop, stop, stop.

01:00:24.000 Yeah, okay.

01:00:24.000 I'll write you a script.

01:00:26.000 They just give it to you.

01:00:26.000 There was no resistance.

01:00:29.000 My joke was that if you can't get a license for marijuana, you should probably go to a hospital immediately because you've got a real problem.

01:00:35.000 They're like, no man, you need actual doctors.

01:00:38.000 Right.

01:00:38.000 I'll tell you a story.

01:00:39.000 This is something that bothers me.

01:00:40.000 I'm not a user of pot now.

01:00:43.000 I was heavily in my earlier life.

01:00:45.000 A friend of my doctor colleagues in San Francisco sent me some samples of stuff that had come from a medical dispensary in San Francisco.

01:00:52.000 And he wanted me to try them.

01:00:54.000 So one of them was some concentrated oil.

01:00:56.000 It came in a little syringe and had a very elaborate, nicely printed brochure with it that described the use of this for pain.

01:01:05.000 And it said you should start with an amount the size of half a grain of rice.

01:01:10.000 Take it orally.

01:01:12.000 What?

01:01:12.000 Yeah, my friend said take it at bedtime.

01:01:14.000 So this is a teeny amount, and actually I probably took somewhat less because I was afraid of getting too high on it.

01:01:18.000 Good for you.

01:01:19.000 So I took it at bedtime, went to sleep, woke up about an hour later in full-blown delirium.

01:01:24.000 I mean, visual hallucinations...

01:01:27.000 As strong as I've had on LSD, I couldn't get out of bed.

01:01:30.000 I was immobile.

01:01:31.000 I had burning thirst.

01:01:33.000 I couldn't get up to get a glass of water.

01:01:34.000 I had a friend staying in a guest house.

01:01:37.000 I couldn't call for help.

01:01:38.000 And it kept increasing.

01:01:41.000 Over four hours, it got stronger and stronger.

01:01:43.000 And when is it going to end?

01:01:45.000 Anyway, it lasted 12 hours.

01:01:47.000 And for about 24 hours after, my equilibrium was really off.

01:01:52.000 And this stuff is being, I mean, you know, and it said, the direction said, start with this amount and work up from there.

01:01:59.000 That's hilarious.

01:02:00.000 And there's people, I'm thinking there's people, you know, driving on the streets.

01:02:03.000 This stuff is out there.

01:02:04.000 That scares me.

01:02:06.000 Yeah, there's people that'll squirt that whole thing in their gullet. 1.00

01:02:08.000 Right.

01:02:11.000 I'm sure you know some.

01:02:12.000 I know a lot of them.

01:02:13.000 Yeah.

01:02:14.000 The edible world is a weird world because the response of the body is so much different than the smoking.

01:02:20.000 It's a different drug.

01:02:22.000 Yeah.

01:02:22.000 And a lot of people are fooled by the long length of time it takes.

01:02:26.000 It's like lighting the firework and the fuse is down and you go back and try to light it again.

01:02:31.000 Yeah.

01:02:31.000 I'm sure you've heard the recording of the police officers who stole the pot from the kids and then ate it and then called 911 on themselves.

01:02:40.000 No.

01:02:40.000 You never heard it?

01:02:41.000 No.

01:02:41.000 Oh, it's wonderful.

01:02:42.000 I won't play it again because we've played it too many times on this podcast.

01:02:45.000 Okay, I'll look it up.

01:02:45.000 But these poor cops, they ate pot brownies and they're calling 911. They're like, I think we're dying.

01:02:51.000 Time's moving real slowly.

01:02:53.000 I think we're dead. 1.00

01:02:56.000 It's so stupid. 1.00

01:02:58.000 It's good for kids to hear because you realize, like, oh, cops are just people. 1.00

01:03:01.000 Oh, all right.

01:03:02.000 Okay.

01:03:03.000 It sounds like my brother.

01:03:04.000 If my brother got high, you know, it's just crazy people that get high. 0.94

01:03:07.000 But the effect of the edible can be pretty fucking profound. 0.92

01:03:13.000 And this area in particular, like Hollywood has some preposterous THC level edibles. 0.95

01:03:20.000 I can imagine, yeah.

01:03:21.000 I mean, they're under different regulations now that it's legal statewide instead of just medical.

01:03:26.000 But when it was medical only, you could get these insane concoctions.

01:03:32.000 Stars of death.

01:03:32.000 You ever heard of a star of death?

01:03:34.000 No, I have not heard of a star of death.

01:03:34.000 Gonna hang out with Joey Diaz.

01:03:36.000 They hit you with a star of death.

01:03:38.000 What is those stars of death?

01:03:38.000 Like 1,200 milligrams?

01:03:40.000 I think they range anywhere from like 200 to 300, 400 each.

01:03:44.000 Each little star.

01:03:45.000 Each little star is hundreds of milligrams and Joey would eat like three or four of them.

01:03:50.000 Eight.

01:03:50.000 I don't know.

01:03:50.000 He would just throw them down.

01:03:52.000 He's got an insane tolerance.

01:03:56.000 He's just one of those guys.

01:03:57.000 Given all this stuff, however, I am delighted to see our society finally coming to better terms with this plant.

01:04:04.000 Me too.

01:04:06.000 Cannabis...

01:04:08.000 The word cannabis is the same word as canvas.

01:04:11.000 All canvas sails and rope used to be made from hemp.

01:04:15.000 And the species name sativa means useful.

01:04:18.000 It's the useful hemp.

01:04:19.000 It's really useful.

01:04:20.000 This is one plant that provides an edible seed, an edible oil, A high quality fiber, a medicine, and an intoxicant.

01:04:28.000 That's a lot of ways for a plant to be useful. 0.99

01:04:31.000 We have been very stupid in our relationship with that plant. 0.99

01:04:36.000 Cannabis, it's the equivalent of the dog in the plant world. 1.00

01:04:39.000 Dogs long ago made a decision to co-evolve with us.

01:04:43.000 They threw their evolutionary lot in with humans.

01:04:46.000 Cannabis did the same thing.

01:04:47.000 You can't unravel the early botanical history of cannabis because as far back in history as we go, it's always associated with human settlements.

01:04:55.000 So that plant wants nothing other than to be with us and to serve us. 1.00

01:04:59.000 And we have been so stupid. 0.99

01:05:01.000 We've let a billion dollar industry in hemp textiles go to China. 1.00

01:05:05.000 We've let a million dollar industry in edible hemp products go to Canada.

01:05:09.000 And we have ignored its potential for medicine.

01:05:13.000 Well, I'm really hoping that things are going to change in terms of our cultivation of hemp.

01:05:18.000 I'm one of the owners of Onnit, and we sell hemp protein.

01:05:23.000 We used to get our hemp protein from Canada.

01:05:25.000 We used to have to get it from Canada and then sell it in America.

01:05:28.000 We couldn't grow it here. 1.00

01:05:29.000 Stupid. 1.00

01:05:30.000 Well, that's going to change. 1.00

01:05:31.000 I'm so hopeful that it does change.

01:05:34.000 It's fascinating also how well the propaganda worked against it and how long, even in defiance of all the facts.

01:05:44.000 Now, I have to tell you, when I did those pot experiments in 1968, I predicted that pot was going to be legal in five years.

01:05:51.000 Boy, was I wrong.

01:05:53.000 I mean, all I thought – I thought it was just a matter of getting the truthful information out there.

01:05:57.000 Well, it wasn't.

01:05:58.000 You know, people believe what they want to believe and they don't believe what they don't want to believe and it's rude.

01:06:02.000 It's totally irrational.

01:06:03.000 Well, it's also a really excellent example of the contradictions in our society and the difference between something that's accurate and something that's perceived.

01:06:14.000 Yep.

01:06:14.000 And we have this perception of marijuana.

01:06:17.000 And sometimes that perception is based on experiences. 0.99

01:06:20.000 Like you might meet some really lazy, fucked up people who smoke pot all the time. 0.99

01:06:24.000 And you go, oh, this is what pot does to you. 1.00

01:06:26.000 Also, it was the associations of pot.

01:06:29.000 Because back then, you know, in the 50s, 60s, it was associated with Mexican migrant workers, with black jazz musicians in the South, and then with radicals and hippies.

01:06:39.000 So all scary people to mainstream, you know...

01:06:43.000 Middle-class white society.

01:06:45.000 And of course, all accentuated by William Randolph Hearst and Harry Anslinger and the Reefer Madness films.

01:06:51.000 Those are great.

01:06:52.000 If anybody hasn't seen those, it's amazing how something that was terrifying to someone back then is so silly today.

01:07:01.000 When you watch Reefer Madness today, it's really funny.

01:07:03.000 And at the same time, we're living with the two most dangerous drugs that are out there with alcohol and tobacco.

01:07:10.000 Well, how about fentanyl? 0.59

01:07:11.000 That one scares the shit out of me. 0.90

01:07:13.000 They just keep ramping that one up and making it more and more potent. 0.65

01:07:16.000 The idea that opioids weren't killing people quick enough, that we needed to make some ridiculously potent versions of it, and apparently now they're approving something that's even more powerful than fentanyl.

01:07:29.000 Why would you do that?

01:07:30.000 But you know, on a physiological level, opioids are not that bad for your body.

01:07:37.000 The worst effect of being addicted to an opioid over time is chronic constipation.

01:07:42.000 I mean, that's annoying, but that's not like cirrhosis of the liver, degeneration of the nervous system.

01:07:48.000 But overdoses?

01:07:50.000 Overdoses, of course, that kills you by stopping your respiration.

01:07:53.000 But there are many examples of people who have been addicted to opioids Who've been able to get legal supplies and use them sensibly, they're healthy.

01:08:02.000 I've heard about that in terms of regular heroin use.

01:08:06.000 I had a friend who was a longshoreman, and this is like when I was a kid, he was explaining to me how this guy that he worked with would get a bag of heroin every day at lunch, and he would shoot it in his car.

01:08:17.000 And he would just sit in his car during lunch hour, and then when the time was up, he'd go back to work.

01:08:22.000 I was like, what?!

01:08:23.000 He would do that every day. 0.61

01:08:24.000 I'm like, he's going to be dead in a week.

01:08:26.000 No, if he knows how to take care of himself.

01:08:28.000 Apparently he did.

01:08:29.000 Apparently he would do it all the time.

01:08:31.000 I guess find a new vein and figure out how to do it and not give himself gangrene.

01:08:36.000 There's a famous historical example that's great.

01:08:38.000 There was a man named William Halstead who was a surgeon at Johns Hopkins University in the early 1900s.

01:08:44.000 He invented local anesthesia.

01:08:47.000 And so, you know, great guy.

01:08:49.000 He started using cocaine and injected – self-injected cocaine and not a good thing.

01:08:56.000 And his behavior got really bad.

01:08:59.000 Not good.

01:09:00.000 So at some point, a group of his colleagues kidnapped him and took him on a yacht.

01:09:06.000 I think we're good to go.

01:09:26.000 I would assume that if you're doing that every day, you're going to run into issues with your veins.

01:09:31.000 Well, yeah.

01:09:32.000 Presumably, he knew how to rotate around and do that.

01:09:35.000 I wouldn't want to do that, but there it is.

01:09:37.000 But the point is that it's a whole different game from alcohol and tobacco.

01:09:44.000 Yeah, a whole different game.

01:09:45.000 The problems, it's the social toxicity of it.

01:09:48.000 It's that people are buying illegal, impure materials and overdosing and so forth.

01:09:55.000 That's not the pharmacological nature of the drug.

01:09:58.000 What's been disturbing to me as a person, as an observer, is watching people who get injured get hooked on it.

01:10:05.000 Yeah.

01:10:05.000 Particularly pills.

01:10:07.000 Yeah.

01:10:07.000 It seems that my good friend Brendan, he had his nose broken and he got his nose fixed and they put him on pills.

01:10:14.000 And before he knew it, he was taking those pills every day for months and months and months.

01:10:17.000 And his friends eventually just took him out of his medicine cabinet and they just made an intervention.

01:10:23.000 So, you know, this is, I think, the opioid crisis that we've got in this country is a fabulous opportunity for integrative medicine.

01:10:29.000 Because the realization is that you cannot manage chronic pain solely with use of opioids.

01:10:36.000 There has to be individualized, integrative treatment that uses different modalities.

01:10:42.000 It could be everything from acupuncture, yoga, mind-body stuff, diet.

01:10:47.000 And that all has to be...

01:10:48.000 State of Oregon, a couple of years ago, passed an integrative pain management initiative saying that all...

01:10:53.000 Pain, chronic pain management had to be integrative and they listed the different modalities.

01:10:57.000 They left out mind-body medicine which to me is one of the most important Yeah, mind, body, medicine, though, on any sort of a report, that seems like that's one like, okay, what kind of...

01:11:07.000 But look, you know, I studied...

01:11:08.000 I'm with you.

01:11:09.000 Yeah, I studied hypnosis after I got out of my medical training, one of the most interesting courses I ever took.

01:11:15.000 There's a well-known demonstration in the literature on hypnosis.

01:11:20.000 You can take a person deeply hypnotized who's got good trance capacity, touch them with a finger that you represent to be a piece of hot metal, and they get a blister.

01:11:29.000 And you can take the same person and touch them with a piece of hot metal and tell them it's cold and they don't get a blister.

01:11:35.000 Wait a minute.

01:11:35.000 Yes.

01:11:37.000 Well-known phenomenon.

01:11:38.000 Have you ever seen this in real life?

01:11:41.000 Yes.

01:11:41.000 So someone's taken a hot piece of metal and convinced someone that they're not going to burn and then they don't burn.

01:11:46.000 Yes.

01:11:46.000 Now that's close, by the way, to the suntan stuff.

01:11:49.000 How long do you touch them with it for?

01:11:50.000 You know, enough in an ordinary person that it would burn them. 1.00

01:11:53.000 I call bullshit. 1.00

01:11:54.000 I call bullshit on that. 0.99

01:11:55.000 But we'll try it. 0.99

01:11:56.000 Let's try it.

01:11:57.000 I'll put you under.

01:11:59.000 Put you under and cook your hand.

01:12:00.000 It's like it's hot. 1.00

01:12:01.000 If it's hot, it's going to fuck you up. 1.00

01:12:03.000 No? 1.00

01:12:03.000 Well, I think if it's held there long enough, it will. 1.00

01:12:05.000 So, like, it's one of those things like the walking on coals thing.

01:12:09.000 Absolutely, which I've done a number of times.

01:12:11.000 I'm sure.

01:12:11.000 But you know this, then, that coals are not a very good conductor of heat, which is why you don't cook on coals.

01:12:17.000 You cook on metal. 0.99

01:12:17.000 That's bullshit. 0.99

01:12:18.000 Yes, I'll tell you why that's bullshit. 1.00

01:12:20.000 My experience was, the first time I tried it, I was with a group of maybe 40 people, and the standard length of the fire walk was about 12 feet. 0.99

01:12:32.000 It was a hot fire.

01:12:33.000 It was mesquite.

01:12:34.000 It was in my yard in Tucson, and the guy came in.

01:12:37.000 It was early in the days of fire walking.

01:12:39.000 And he had this long four-hour thing to get people ready.

01:12:44.000 I was not in the right mental state when I did it. 0.95

01:12:47.000 And my experience was it felt fucking hot.

01:12:50.000 And when I got to the end of it, it condensed down to like a number of points that really burned. 0.83

01:12:56.000 And I had blisters the next day.

01:12:58.000 And most people that have walked that night...

01:13:01.000 It looked like they were not in the right mental state, but I saw a few people who strolled across it that looked they were in some interesting altered state.

01:13:08.000 So I wanted to try it again.

01:13:10.000 Next time I did it, I shouldn't have done it. 0.99

01:13:11.000 I was with a guy who was a real jerk who thought of himself as a self-styled guru, small group. 0.97

01:13:17.000 It was a shorter, maybe eight-foot, cooler bed of coals, and I got significant burns from that. 0.99

01:13:23.000 So like an annoying guru?

01:13:25.000 Yeah, really annoying.

01:13:26.000 He had no idea what he was doing. 1.00

01:13:28.000 And you're like, this guy's a jerk-off. 0.99

01:13:29.000 And then you're getting annoyed, so you're out of your mindset. 1.00

01:13:32.000 Right, and I burned my feet.

01:13:33.000 So I said, I'm not going to do this again.

01:13:35.000 And then a friend of mine was doing some intensive workshop with Tony Robbins in Phoenix.

01:13:39.000 Oh, Christ.

01:13:40.000 And it was going to end.

01:13:41.000 Last day, they were going to try to set a record for the longest firewalk done in America.

01:13:46.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.

01:13:47.000 So he wanted me to come up.

01:13:48.000 So I went up there.

01:13:48.000 I thought, I'm going to watch.

01:13:50.000 I'm not going to do it.

01:13:50.000 So it was a 40-foot bed of Kohl's.

01:13:53.000 And it was really hot.

01:13:55.000 And he had like a troop of African drummers and people were dancing and drumming.

01:13:58.000 It was like midnight.

01:13:59.000 And people were getting in line to walk.

01:14:02.000 And I said, I'm not going to do this.

01:14:03.000 I'm not going to do it.

01:14:03.000 But I found myself going up there.

01:14:05.000 And I was right there.

01:14:06.000 And he taps me in the shoulder and says, you're ready.

01:14:08.000 It felt like walking through crunchy croutons.

01:14:12.000 There was no sensation of heat.

01:14:14.000 I walked slowly.

01:14:15.000 I kind of wiggled my feet in the things.

01:14:17.000 And when I got to the end of it, I felt so high.

01:14:20.000 It was like on acid.

01:14:21.000 I had energy rushes through my body.

01:14:23.000 I had nothing on my feet.

01:14:25.000 So on a much shorter, cooler walk, those coals conducted just fine.

01:14:30.000 And, you know, on this one, it's a mind-body thing.

01:14:33.000 It's not about the conductivity of the coals.

01:14:35.000 Tony Robbins hitting you with some Fugazi coals.

01:14:37.000 Whatever it is.

01:14:39.000 It was hot.

01:14:40.000 I mean, you could barely get at the edge of the thing, man.

01:14:42.000 The heat was amazing.

01:14:43.000 Do you know the Tony Robbins one, what's really interesting is recently they've developed this issue with people trying to take selfies while they're walking across the coals and burning their feet.

01:14:53.000 It's become a significant issue because it didn't happen until within the last few years.

01:14:58.000 I never heard of that.

01:14:59.000 I think that would get you right out of the proper state.

01:15:02.000 Yeah, there was a big article about it. 0.98

01:15:03.000 There was a big article about these people really fucking their feet up. 0.98

01:15:08.000 Well deserved. 0.94

01:15:09.000 So you really think that you have the ability to mitigate the amount of effect that fire and hot coals have on your skin?

01:15:18.000 I don't have any proof of this in my intuition.

01:15:20.000 I think what happens if your mind is out of the way...

01:15:23.000 You can absorb energy and let it flow through your body rather than getting blocked in the tissues where it causes damage.

01:15:32.000 And I've seen this in other situations as well.

01:15:35.000 And I think the problem is ordinarily our mind is in the way of that and does not let the body freely do that.

01:15:43.000 And I think that applies to things like getting hit really hard, heat.

01:15:47.000 Getting hit really hard?

01:15:49.000 What do you mean?

01:15:51.000 Like letting someone hit you as hard as they can with something that would cause damage and it doesn't?

01:15:56.000 Oh, that's crazy.

01:15:57.000 No, it's not.

01:15:57.000 I've experienced it.

01:15:59.000 Yeah, I'm sure you have, but are there real scientific studies that show that?

01:16:03.000 Nobody studied it.

01:16:04.000 I'd love to study it.

01:16:04.000 Nobody studied firewalking.

01:16:06.000 You know, the usual scientific explanation is that- It seems like we probably shouldn't talk about this until they do do studies because it seems so simple to do these studies.

01:16:13.000 Yeah.

01:16:13.000 And I'm not buying it for a second.

01:16:15.000 I think if I hit somebody, it's gonna fucking hurt. 0.99

01:16:18.000 Right? 1.00

01:16:18.000 If you get Deontay Wilder to punch you, I don't give a fuck how much Tony Robbins talks you into the zone. 1.00

01:16:23.000 Common experience. 0.99

01:16:25.000 Drunks involved in car accidents don't get injured. 0.94

01:16:29.000 Okay, but do you know why?

01:16:30.000 Because they're totally relaxed.

01:16:31.000 Yes, but that has nothing to do with some altered state of consciousness that's not allowing the injury to actually manifest itself.

01:16:36.000 Well, I think their mind is out of the way and their body is totally relaxed.

01:16:40.000 But it's the tension of falling.

01:16:42.000 You hurt yourself.

01:16:44.000 Because you're defending yourself.

01:16:45.000 Yes.

01:16:46.000 Right.

01:16:47.000 Right.

01:16:47.000 Your body is better off giving in to the impact.

01:16:50.000 Well, I'm saying it's the same thing with the fire.

01:16:53.000 But it can't be.

01:16:53.000 That's a different thing.

01:16:54.000 Because you're not tense on the surface of your skin, which is causing the heat to burn your flesh.

01:17:00.000 No, I think you're tense in your nervous system, which is not able to absorb that thermal energy.

01:17:05.000 Listen, bro, we're going to do some studies and I'm going to burn you. 1.00

01:17:08.000 I'm going to burn you and I'm going to kick you. 1.00

01:17:10.000 Anytime we'll try it. 1.00

01:17:11.000 I just don't buy it.

01:17:13.000 I think certainly you can mitigate the sensation of pain.

01:17:18.000 I don't believe that you can do anything about the actual physiological change to a hot piece of metal interacting with the tissue of your skin.

01:17:27.000 I just think the steak does not know it's being cooked.

01:17:30.000 It's just getting cooked.

01:17:32.000 You're going to get cooked.

01:17:32.000 You are meat.

01:17:34.000 I just don't buy that.

01:17:35.000 I'll show you some of these studies on hypnosis.

01:17:38.000 There's doctors right now going, yes, you tell them, Joe Rogan.

01:17:41.000 This is nonsense.

01:17:43.000 Well, I believe hypnosis.

01:17:44.000 I do believe that.

01:17:46.000 But I absolutely believe you can achieve different states of mind where you feel things differently.

01:17:51.000 Your concentration, your relaxation is in a different state.

01:17:55.000 Your mindset is in a different state.

01:17:58.000 I do not believe that you can change the physiological nature of your body's ability to absorb punishment, like a punch.

01:18:05.000 I do.

01:18:06.000 And same thing of absorbing the sun.

01:18:08.000 That sets some studies up, sir.

01:18:10.000 I agree.

01:18:11.000 I'm all for it.

01:18:12.000 I'm all for it.

01:18:12.000 How do we got to make these tests?

01:18:13.000 I don't know.

01:18:14.000 We'll have to figure it out.

01:18:14.000 We'll talk after.

01:18:15.000 But you've been doing this forever.

01:18:16.000 How do you not know?

01:18:17.000 You should have these studies already done.

01:18:21.000 I got other things to do.

01:18:22.000 I know, but this is a significant conversation point.

01:18:26.000 Because if it's proven, this is really huge.

01:18:28.000 If you could really take a hot metal rod right out of the fire and touch someone's skin, they're in the right state of mind, you don't burn them?

01:18:36.000 That would be giant.

01:18:37.000 Yes.

01:18:37.000 Well, I'm telling you, I'll send you some literature on hypnosis that shows this kind of stuff.

01:18:43.000 I'm sure someone wrote some shit down. 0.99

01:18:46.000 I'm sure. 0.99

01:18:46.000 I want to see actual real studies. 0.99

01:18:49.000 All right.

01:18:49.000 I want to see.

01:18:49.000 And I want to, I mean, in this day and age, there's no reason to not videotape it as well.

01:18:52.000 True.

01:18:53.000 True.

01:18:54.000 Alright, it's on my list.

01:18:55.000 I've got a lot of stuff to do.

01:18:57.000 This is a big one, though.

01:18:58.000 I agree.

01:18:59.000 Because this is something that woo-woo people, healers, and a lot of people like to bring up, and when you press them on it, there's no evidence for it.

01:19:08.000 And it's like, well, anecdotal evidence, well, I've heard, well, I work with a healer, and he tells me, like, okay.

01:19:15.000 Okay.

01:19:16.000 Do you know what the literal meaning of anecdote is?

01:19:19.000 No.

01:19:20.000 It means unpublished in Greek. 0.99

01:19:21.000 It does not mean stupid, not worth paying attention to. 0.97

01:19:25.000 No, anecdotal evidence is often accurate. 0.60

01:19:26.000 And it inspires you to do the experiments.

01:19:29.000 Okay, well you go ahead and do that.

01:19:31.000 All right.

01:19:32.000 You could.

01:19:33.000 I'll report. 0.93

01:19:33.000 Put that hot piece of metal on your skin. 0.93

01:19:35.000 I'll report back to you. 0.97

01:19:36.000 Yeah, and I'm going to go, hmm, look at that, burn.

01:19:38.000 I'll report back to you.

01:19:39.000 Yeah.

01:19:40.000 I mean, I'm not saying that anecdotal evidence is always inaccurate.

01:19:43.000 It's most certainly accurate many times.

01:19:45.000 Sometimes.

01:19:46.000 Sometimes.

01:19:46.000 Yeah.

01:19:47.000 Yeah, I mean, just as likelihood that it's not that it is.

01:19:50.000 But anecdotal evidence is what gives you hypotheses to test.

01:19:53.000 Sure.

01:19:54.000 But it's just not good enough to state a fact.

01:19:56.000 I agree.

01:19:56.000 Especially when something that doesn't make sense chemically and physiologically.

01:20:01.000 It doesn't make sense.

01:20:02.000 But I told you about my experience with sun and suntan.

01:20:05.000 That doesn't make sense to you. 0.99

01:20:06.000 Seems like you're tripping your balls off. 0.99

01:20:08.000 Yeah, and something happened in my body. 0.99

01:20:11.000 That would be interesting.

01:20:12.000 If there was some sort of change in your body's ability to produce melanin.

01:20:16.000 Yeah.

01:20:17.000 Or what is it?

01:20:18.000 Melancholytes?

01:20:18.000 How do you say it?

01:20:19.000 Melanocytes.

01:20:20.000 Melanocytes.

01:20:22.000 And they're controlled.

01:20:25.000 Melanocytes are related to neurons and they're influenced by nerve connections.

01:20:31.000 So it seems to me perfectly possible that mind through the nervous system changes the behavior of melanocytes.

01:20:37.000 Sort of like how your body can ramp up adrenaline or anxiety or anything.

01:20:42.000 It also can ramp up melanocytes.

01:20:44.000 That doesn't seem like outside the realm of possibility.

01:20:48.000 But when I first told it to you, you said it was outside the realm of possibility.

01:20:52.000 Not outside, but sounds crazy.

01:20:54.000 Definitely sounds crazy.

01:20:56.000 But, I mean, it seems like that would be something also that would really warrant study.

01:21:00.000 Absolutely. 1.00

01:21:00.000 Especially those poor pasty-ass motherfuckers out there on the beach turning bright red. 1.00

01:21:06.000 Like, no, man, you just got to think about it the right way. 1.00

01:21:09.000 Can you imagine if you just told people that there was like a meditation and then you just get a nice tan?

01:21:14.000 Yeah.

01:21:15.000 Good thing.

01:21:16.000 Yeah.

01:21:16.000 It would be a good thing.

01:21:18.000 Now, when it comes to...

01:21:19.000 We were talking about autoimmune issues.

01:21:22.000 I have vitiligo.

01:21:23.000 You see what that is?

01:21:24.000 I have spots on my hands where I don't get any pigment.

01:21:27.000 How do I fix that?

01:21:28.000 How do I fix that with my brain?

01:21:30.000 You know, all I can tell you is that I would try to see if you had influenced it through hypnosis or through guided imagery.

01:21:36.000 Just see if you can change it in any way.

01:21:37.000 I don't know.

01:21:38.000 Hypnosis and guided imagery.

01:21:40.000 Yeah.

01:21:40.000 There are two mind-body techniques.

01:21:42.000 I think it's worth trying.

01:21:44.000 I did read once that there was this...

01:21:47.000 I think it was a young man who had some awful, one of those awful wart diseases. 0.99

01:21:55.000 There was one called ichthyosis, which is like the whole skin gets covered with this calloused, tarred tissue, and it went away through hypnosis.

01:22:04.000 Over time, I've earned that case too.

01:22:06.000 They told him, like, his arm, that one arm was going to be cured, and it just, like, completely eliminated all the warts on that one arm.

01:22:16.000 I remember that.

01:22:16.000 Yeah, and they couldn't figure out how or why, and they couldn't recreate it.

01:22:21.000 So the wart stuff, that's very well documented.

01:22:24.000 And wart cures, there's so many different wart cures.

01:22:27.000 Some of them are quite funny.

01:22:28.000 Yeah.

01:22:29.000 You know, you have to...

01:22:32.000 Cut a particular plant under the full moon and rub it and bury it, blah, blah, blah.

01:22:36.000 But the wart falls off the next morning.

01:22:39.000 And when you compare that to the way we deal with warts medically, we burn them off, freeze them off, cut them off.

01:22:44.000 Most of the time when we do that, they grow back in multiple clusters.

01:22:48.000 When the mind gets rid of them through this method, they're gone.

01:22:52.000 So we want to find out how to make that happen more at a time.

01:22:55.000 Yeah, that's real, right?

01:22:57.000 I mean, this is actual real documented science.

01:22:59.000 And that is what is so interesting to me about the placebo effect is that it is a real thing that your mind has this capability of healing itself in this very, very powerful way, but we don't exactly know how to turn it on or off.

01:23:14.000 Right.

01:23:14.000 And it can do the opposite, too.

01:23:16.000 There's a phenomenon called voodoo death, where in societies where there are witch doctor shamans, a malevolent witch doctor can curse a person, and the person goes home, lies in bed, stops eating, and over days or weeks dies.

01:23:30.000 Whoa.

01:23:30.000 So what more could you ask of in the way of a mind-body effect?

01:23:34.000 He put a curse on – what was the basketball team? 1.00

01:23:38.000 They were talking shit about him. 1.00

01:23:39.000 They put a curse on him, and they couldn't win a goddamn game. 1.00

01:23:42.000 It's happened a few times. 0.99

01:23:43.000 Yeah, he's put a curse on him a few different times.

01:23:46.000 He's like a real, how would you say, spiritual, very positive, mostly real love-oriented guy, but occasionally he'll put a hex on a dude.

01:23:54.000 And when he puts a hex on you, you've got a real problem on your hands.

01:23:58.000 Apparently it's been very effective.

01:24:00.000 And people freak out when Lil B hexes them. 0.99

01:24:03.000 Lil B puts that hex on you like, damn it! 1.00

01:24:05.000 And then he releases the hex. 0.99

01:24:06.000 He's lifted them.

01:24:07.000 He lifts them.

01:24:08.000 And when he lifts them, everything goes back to normal.

01:24:11.000 Alright.

01:24:12.000 This is weird, man.

01:24:13.000 This is like a weird...

01:24:15.000 Because everyone's aware when Lil B puts a curse on you.

01:24:18.000 Uh-huh.

01:24:19.000 And when he does, people are like, oh no, I can't believe this.

01:24:23.000 Like the idea of curses, like a voodoo curse or a gypsy curse on you. 1.00

01:24:30.000 Well, that's the negative side.

01:24:31.000 In fact, it has a name.

01:24:32.000 It's called the nocebo effect from noxious rather than pleasing.

01:24:36.000 Yes, yeah.

01:24:38.000 That's a documented thing as well, right?

01:24:40.000 That people can believe that something is wrong with them and then they start mind-fucking themselves into this terrible state.

01:24:48.000 Yeah.

01:24:48.000 And then they start screwing things up.

01:24:50.000 Yeah.

01:24:51.000 Yeah, this is hot started.

01:24:52.000 Here it is.

01:24:53.000 Kevin Durant says, I tried to listen to Lil B. My mind wouldn't let me do it.

01:24:57.000 Can't believe this guy's relevant. 1.00

01:24:58.000 And Lil B was like, okay, bitch. 1.00

01:25:01.000 Kevin Durant will never win the title after he said Lil B is a whack rapper. 1.00

01:25:06.000 The bass god's curse.

01:25:08.000 Hashtag the bass god's curse on Durant.

01:25:11.000 And then he always signs his tweets, Lil B. That's pretty funny.

01:25:18.000 But it works.

01:25:19.000 It works.

01:25:19.000 Kevin Durant is sitting home right now thinking of the millions that Lil B must have cost him.

01:25:23.000 Yeah, he's won now.

01:25:24.000 Yeah, he's won now, but he could have bought a house with all that money he lost. 0.98

01:25:28.000 For those years that Lil B had him fucked over in the corner. 0.87

01:25:35.000 But that, I mean, I think the opposite is true, too. 0.91

01:25:37.000 Someone could put blessings on you.

01:25:39.000 Like, there was a fighter that we had in here the other day, Deontay Wilder.

01:25:42.000 He's the WBC heavyweight champion of the world.

01:25:44.000 And he said that from the time he was a little boy, his grandmother had him convinced that he was like an anointed one, that he was special.

01:25:52.000 Mm-hmm.

01:25:52.000 And that she would always say that to his parents.

01:25:55.000 Like, you know, don't you hit him.

01:25:56.000 Like, this one's special.

01:25:58.000 You know, he's going to raise everybody up.

01:26:00.000 And then he turned out to be, like, one of the great heavyweight champions ever in terms of, like, his record.

01:26:04.000 He's 40-0 with 39 knockouts.

01:26:06.000 I mean, he's a phenomenally successful fighter.

01:26:08.000 And in his mind, he believes that he has some, like, magic property.

01:26:14.000 Or that there's something to him. 0.98

01:26:16.000 He's a ridiculous knockout artist, too. 0.93

01:26:17.000 I mean, obviously, there's a lot of physiological aspects to that. 0.95

01:26:20.000 I mean, he's a big...

01:26:21.000 Long, tall guy with crazy knockout power.

01:26:24.000 You can't fake power.

01:26:25.000 You either have it or you don't.

01:26:26.000 But he's got it.

01:26:27.000 And he's got this weird confidence, too.

01:26:30.000 And you've got to wonder how much of him actually is operating under this idea that his grandmother was right about him having some magical properties.

01:26:38.000 And so he goes through life with his vision.

01:26:40.000 Yeah.

01:26:41.000 Powerful.

01:26:41.000 Yeah.

01:26:43.000 How do you trick people into thinking that way?

01:26:44.000 We need a whole nation full of...

01:26:46.000 Deontay Wilders, a nation full of super convinced...

01:26:51.000 See, that's why doctors are afraid of the placebo effect, because they think it's tricking people.

01:26:56.000 It's duping them.

01:26:56.000 And it's not.

01:26:58.000 It's like, you know, when you present a treatment to a patient...

01:27:02.000 Your belief in the treatment as a practitioner catalyzes the patient's belief.

01:27:08.000 The best way I can do that is if I give a patient something that I've tried myself and I know from my own experience that it works, and then I can present it in a way with my confidence, and that increases the patient's confidence and increases the likelihood of a favorable outcome.

01:27:22.000 Even controversial therapies?

01:27:25.000 Give me an example of something you don't know.

01:27:27.000 When you give a pharmaceutical drug to a patient, I think there's the direct effect of the drug and then there's a halo of belief effect.

01:27:36.000 An interesting phenomenon is that there's a famous saying in medicine that you should use a new remedy as much as possible before it loses the power to heal.

01:27:45.000 This is a common experience that drugs work best near the time of their introduction.

01:27:50.000 That's also the case with diets as well, right?

01:27:52.000 Absolutely.

01:27:52.000 And the longer they're around, I think what happens is people have faith in new things.

01:27:58.000 So there's a big halo of placebo effect.

01:28:01.000 Over time, that shrinks and it leaves the stuff on its own, which may not be very impressive.

01:28:05.000 This is often the case when people take on a radical diet, like on opposite ends of the spectrum, whether it's a carnivore diet, you're aware of that.

01:28:12.000 A lot of people swear it fixes them all these ales, or a vegan diet.

01:28:16.000 Very similar effects, obviously a very different diet.

01:28:19.000 Exactly.

01:28:20.000 So it's the mind.

01:28:22.000 The mind.

01:28:23.000 The mind is where it's at.

01:28:26.000 And the big problem in science and medicine is that we don't believe in the mind.

01:28:30.000 That's what I was saying earlier when you were talking about mind-body.

01:28:33.000 It's not material.

01:28:35.000 This is the problem.

01:28:36.000 When you're talking about mind-body interactions or wart cures, placebo effects, you're talking about a non-material cause of a physical event.

01:28:46.000 And that is not allowed in the materialistic paradigm that dominates science.

01:28:51.000 When we observe...

01:28:52.000 A change in the physical system, the dogma is the cause has to be physical.

01:28:57.000 When you talk about a non-physical cause of a physical event, scientists tune out.

01:29:02.000 Well, that's really unfortunate because we know so much about how attitude does shape the way your body reacts to things.

01:29:09.000 Going back to the Sarno stuff, you know, with back pain.

01:29:12.000 It's all that stuff.

01:29:14.000 It's like, you know, to me, you can't separate the mind and body.

01:29:18.000 They're two poles of the same thing. 0.97

01:29:21.000 Well, if the placebo effect is real and it's documented, so obviously something is going on with the way you feel about things and think about things that it's having an actual physiological effect.

01:29:32.000 There's something happening to your body because of the way you're thinking about it happening to your body.

01:29:35.000 Now, one of the things that has made this suddenly of interest in the medical world Is that we now have these techniques like functional MRIs and PET scans where we can observe living brains.

01:29:48.000 And you can show that the placebo response is associated with particular activity in certain brain centers.

01:29:53.000 That has made it real for people that otherwise didn't believe in it.

01:29:58.000 Yes, right?

01:29:59.000 There's a medically documented reaction.

01:30:02.000 There's something they can get a hook into.

01:30:04.000 Yeah, you can put it on a scale.

01:30:06.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:30:07.000 What part of the brain is responsible for the placebo effect?

01:30:11.000 Well, again, it's probably some of these deep brain centers that the same ones involve in swearing.

01:30:17.000 You know, the same thing.

01:30:18.000 It's coming from centers that connect to emotional, you know, to emotion.

01:30:24.000 Yeah.

01:30:24.000 The ability to turn that on and off consciously and willingly is tricky.

01:30:29.000 Yeah.

01:30:30.000 You know, another thing I looked at over the years was healing shrines in the world like Lourdes.

01:30:37.000 There's two interesting facts about that.

01:30:39.000 Over the years, the Catholic Church has accepted very few healings as genuine that have like full medical documentation and some of them are quite spectacular like Miraculous disappearance of widely disseminated cancer.

01:30:52.000 No native of Lourdes has ever been cured. 0.95

01:30:55.000 And the chances that a person is going to be healed there...

01:30:59.000 Explain Lourdes.

01:30:59.000 This is a place in France where a child saw visions of the Virgin Mary.

01:31:07.000 And anyway, it's grown up into a...

01:31:09.000 There's a grotto and it's now a major Catholic shrine.

01:31:13.000 And it has a reputation for healing.

01:31:15.000 And thousands and thousands of people over the years have gone there.

01:31:18.000 So as I said, very – there's relatively few reported healings that have been fully documented medically.

01:31:25.000 But no native of Lourdes has ever been healed. 0.95

01:31:27.000 And the – there's something called the Lourdes phenomenon which is fascinating that the chances that a person is going to be healed at Lourdes or a place like that is directly proportional to the length of the journey traveled to get there.

01:31:40.000 Yeah.

01:31:40.000 I have heard that.

01:31:41.000 So the length of the journey is an investment of belief, right?

01:31:45.000 So you're projecting belief onto the place and then you get it back.

01:31:49.000 Yeah, that seems like that could essentially work with any very, very difficult vision quest type experience that you're going on.

01:31:57.000 You're looking for something and you have to earn it.

01:32:00.000 You have to be fully invested.

01:32:02.000 There has to be something going on in the mind that has you convinced this is a real effect.

01:32:06.000 But the power is not in the place.

01:32:08.000 The power is in here, and you're projecting it onto that.

01:32:13.000 But man, wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to go all the way to France?

01:32:15.000 Yeah, it'd be great.

01:32:18.000 And how do you get that going?

01:32:22.000 Like if someone said to you, okay, man, I don't want to go to Lourdes, but what should I do?

01:32:26.000 Well, one is that you could imagine you're going to lure it, and that's taking advantage of this function of visualization.

01:32:31.000 That's why these therapies like guided imagery seem to work, that you can imagine something and have it become real.

01:32:37.000 Guided imagery.

01:32:38.000 Now, is there a specific, you know, like there's like transcendental medication, there's Yeah, now this is a formal system of therapy that people are trained in where you sit with a practitioner and they help you explore your mental imagery and may give you specific kinds of images to work with depending on the condition that you're dealing with.

01:33:00.000 I would think, knowing the fact that we have real evidence that placebo effect works, why isn't there more study done to try or more thought and more people that are trying to emphasize this ability of the brain?

01:33:15.000 I'm telling you, we're up against this problem that in the dominant paradigm in science and medicine, we don't believe in non-physical causation of physical events.

01:33:25.000 But that doesn't jive with me because we do believe in the placebo effect.

01:33:28.000 Everybody says that, oh, it's just a placebo, right?

01:33:31.000 You said that earlier.

01:33:32.000 Right.

01:33:32.000 People always say that, but it still works.

01:33:34.000 Right, but we're not using it.

01:33:37.000 Right.

01:33:38.000 We should be using it.

01:33:39.000 We should be using it.

01:33:39.000 It's the meat of medicine.

01:33:41.000 We want to make it happen more at the time. 0.99

01:33:44.000 God damn it. 0.98

01:33:45.000 It's just that we're so flawed in our approach. 0.99

01:33:48.000 It's really interesting.

01:33:49.000 It's like the human body and the human mind is such an incredibly complicated biological entity, right?

01:33:56.000 Our ability to consciously be aware of our life, our position in the world, our mortality, the insignificance of us in the greater scale.

01:34:08.000 All those things are there right now all the time, but we don't have any user's manual.

01:34:13.000 Right.

01:34:13.000 Exactly.

01:34:14.000 It's like we have this incredible machine that can invent nuclear bombs and satellites, and there's no user's manual.

01:34:20.000 No user's manual for the mind or the body.

01:34:23.000 Especially not in how to manage the body with the mind.

01:34:26.000 Nothing.

01:34:27.000 Figure it out, bitch. 1.00

01:34:27.000 Wide open field. 1.00

01:34:28.000 You're on your own.

01:34:29.000 Yeah.

01:34:29.000 A few people have got it.

01:34:30.000 You've got to find these masters, right?

01:34:32.000 So if you think about it...

01:34:34.000 300 and whatever million people we have in this country.

01:34:37.000 How many of those people could guide you towards a proper integration of mind and body and a positive way of interfacing with reality that's beneficial to you physically, mentally, spiritually?

01:34:52.000 Not many.

01:34:53.000 Is there a dozen?

01:34:55.000 Not many.

01:34:57.000 Isn't it interesting?

01:34:58.000 Yeah, it's very interesting.

01:34:59.000 With all these human beings, and essentially most of them trying to improve in some way, even people that fail on diets, boy, they'd like to get skinny.

01:35:07.000 Even people that fail at school, well, I wish I was smart enough to graduate, I wish I had enough discipline.

01:35:12.000 People want to do better.

01:35:14.000 So there's this vast need for coaching that would lead to improvement, yet almost...

01:35:21.000 I mean, nothing to speak of and certainly nothing large scale in any city that has this approach where, look, we are going to teach you how to better engage with the material world around you and better engage with reality itself that's going to leave you more spiritually,

01:35:41.000 physically, emotionally fulfilled.

01:35:42.000 Like, that seems like that would be a big business.

01:35:44.000 It would.

01:35:45.000 Now, one way to teach this stuff is by example, that if a person exemplifies You know, good mind-body functioning, they can inspire that in another person.

01:35:54.000 That seems like maybe the only way.

01:35:56.000 One strategy that if I can do this, if I have a patient, if I can introduce that patient to someone who's had their condition is now better, that is a very powerful way to up their belief in the possibility of getting better.

01:36:10.000 Yeah, that makes sense, which is why people love user testimonials.

01:36:14.000 Right.

01:36:15.000 But better if you actually meet the person and see for yourself.

01:36:19.000 Yeah.

01:36:20.000 But user testimonials are so huge for that razor.

01:36:22.000 You know, I was skeptical at first, but then I tried it, and boy, he was skeptical just like me.

01:36:28.000 To me, when I look at the giant number of people that are unhappy and displaced and just seem like they're left out of society, I was...

01:36:41.000 Listening to, oh, it was Johan Hari on Sam Harris' podcast, and they were talking about the number of people that are happy with what they do for a living.

01:36:53.000 Happy with what they do every day.

01:36:55.000 And it was somewhere around 13%.

01:36:58.000 Yeah.

01:36:59.000 And then the number of people that were just like, it's okay, I just do it.

01:37:04.000 Like, I don't hate it, but I don't love it.

01:37:06.000 That was like in the 60%. 0.98

01:37:07.000 And then the rest of the people fucking hated what they did. 0.94

01:37:11.000 So the vast majority, some ungodly number, you know, like 87% of people hate what they're doing. 0.97

01:37:20.000 Oh, how sad.

01:37:21.000 Or if you don't hate it, they don't want to be doing it, and they do it all the time.

01:37:25.000 Yeah.

01:37:26.000 That's crazy.

01:37:27.000 That has to have a profound effect on all aspects of your life, right?

01:37:32.000 I like what I do.

01:37:34.000 Well, you seem like you do.

01:37:35.000 I do.

01:37:35.000 You have a twinkle in your eye when you talk about it.

01:37:39.000 But, I mean, it's got to give you some satisfaction for sure, right?

01:37:42.000 Yeah.

01:37:43.000 Help all these people?

01:37:44.000 Absolutely.

01:37:44.000 And also to see a lot of the things that I've...

01:37:47.000 You know, believe for so long becoming more mainstream.

01:37:49.000 It's good.

01:37:50.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:51.000 And much more so now than ever before, right?

01:37:53.000 Much more so now than ever before.

01:37:54.000 Yeah, when you were doing those studies in the 1960s and you thought that marijuana was going to be legal in five years, how could you have ever, first of all, how could you have ever thought of the internet, right?

01:38:03.000 That's the big one, the distribution of information.

01:38:06.000 Sure.

01:38:06.000 Yeah.

01:38:07.000 That's really the big one, the decentralized distribution of information.

01:38:12.000 And that, by the way, in medicine, it's one of the things that's most leveled the playing field between doctors and patients.

01:38:18.000 It sort of ended the authoritarian, paternalistic kind of medicine that was when I grew up.

01:38:25.000 Well, it is a problem, right?

01:38:27.000 A patient comes, they think they know everything.

01:38:29.000 Yeah, but I have seen many, many patients who have gotten exactly the information they needed and were able to take it to the doctor who didn't know about it.

01:38:38.000 I mean, I think on the whole, it's a really good thing.

01:38:41.000 Oh, yeah, for sure.

01:38:42.000 No, no, for sure.

01:38:42.000 I'm saying just like, I get how doctors be worn out by it all the time.

01:38:46.000 You know, listen to me.

01:38:47.000 I went to school.

01:38:48.000 This is what it is.

01:38:49.000 Well, it's good for them to have to let go of that.

01:38:51.000 Yeah.

01:38:51.000 Well, there's no way you could know everything.

01:38:54.000 True.

01:38:55.000 I mean, especially doctors.

01:38:56.000 They must know that they have a specialty for a reason because the human body is so insanely complicated.

01:39:01.000 There's no way anybody is a general specialist of every single aspect of medicine.

01:39:05.000 But we need more generalists.

01:39:07.000 One of the problems is we've got too many specialists.

01:39:09.000 Really?

01:39:10.000 Yeah.

01:39:10.000 So someone like, would you think of a generalist as someone who sort of guides you towards various specialists?

01:39:15.000 Yeah.

01:39:15.000 I'm a general practitioner.

01:39:16.000 I'm very proud of it.

01:39:17.000 There's good data showing that states that have a higher number of primary care physicians, family doctors, have better medical outcomes than patients with a higher percentage of specialists.

01:39:30.000 But the problem is specialties pay more.

01:39:32.000 So we should be changing that.

01:39:34.000 We should be providing financial incentives for people to go into general medicine.

01:39:38.000 Yeah, it also makes sense, too, that by the time you get to a specialist, usually you're really messed up.

01:39:42.000 If you're going to a back specialist, you might have a real situation that's been bothering you for a long time, whereas you go to a general practitioner for a checkup.

01:39:51.000 This is my biannual checkup.

01:39:54.000 He's just kind of giving you the once-over, making sure everything's okay.

01:39:57.000 How are you sleeping?

01:39:57.000 How are you eating?

01:39:58.000 Drinking?

01:39:59.000 Smoking cigarettes?

01:40:00.000 What's going on?

01:40:01.000 Just get a sense of you.

01:40:03.000 But do they have enough time?

01:40:04.000 Isn't that a big issue?

01:40:05.000 Yeah, it's a huge amount of time.

01:40:07.000 How much time do you spend when you work with patients?

01:40:09.000 I take an hour, and in our clinics, we do 90 minutes on a first session.

01:40:14.000 That's got to be nice.

01:40:15.000 90 minutes so you can get to know somebody.

01:40:17.000 But if you're getting in and out of that office in 10 minutes, he's just, here's a prescription.

01:40:21.000 Get out of here.

01:40:22.000 Next!

01:40:22.000 You know, there's been studies on the amount of time in a medical encounter when a patient starts to talk, how soon a doctor interrupts the patient.

01:40:33.000 Do you have any guess what that is now?

01:40:35.000 13 seconds.

01:40:35.000 You're right!

01:40:36.000 Really?

01:40:37.000 Yeah, 13 seconds.

01:40:38.000 I use the same number of people that are happy with what they do.

01:40:42.000 Ha! 0.89

01:40:42.000 There you go. 0.89

01:40:44.000 That's pretty good.

01:40:45.000 13 seconds.

01:40:46.000 Wow.

01:40:47.000 Yeah.

01:40:47.000 Well, my foot hurts and I've been...

01:40:50.000 Okay, here you go.

01:40:51.000 Exactly. 1.00

01:40:52.000 Shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:40:53.000 Take this. 1.00

01:40:55.000 Take this opium.

01:40:56.000 Yeah.

01:40:57.000 Have you ever eaten in a true food kitchen?

01:40:59.000 What does that mean?

01:41:00.000 It's a restaurant, true food kitchen.

01:41:02.000 No, I don't know what that is.

01:41:03.000 Well, it's a restaurant that I started.

01:41:05.000 There's now 25 of them.

01:41:06.000 No kidding.

01:41:07.000 We've got two in LA. Where are they?

01:41:09.000 One in Pasadena, where I'm going to go after the show and eat.

01:41:12.000 Oh, I'm in Pasadena tonight.

01:41:14.000 All right.

01:41:14.000 I'm at the Ice House Comedy Club.

01:41:15.000 All right.

01:41:16.000 I'll be there for dinner if you want to come over there.

01:41:19.000 True Food Kitchen.

01:41:21.000 Yeah, it's great.

01:41:23.000 It's delicious, healthy food.

01:41:25.000 It's wonderful food that conforms to good nutritional principles.

01:41:28.000 It's an anti-inflammatory diet.

01:41:30.000 And there's something for everyone.

01:41:31.000 There's like meat, there's vegan options, vegetarian, gluten-free, very delicious food.

01:41:36.000 True food kitchen.

01:41:37.000 And it's become an incredibly successful restaurant concept.

01:41:40.000 Well, that's a great idea to be able to serve people things that you know for a fact are going to be healthy and nutritious, not just taste good, but good for you.

01:41:48.000 But primarily it's food that looks great and tastes great.

01:41:50.000 It happens to conform to good nutritional science.

01:41:53.000 Yeah, that is possible.

01:41:54.000 A lot of people think you have to eat fried chicken.

01:41:57.000 Right.

01:41:57.000 Well, come in there and try it.

01:41:58.000 I would love to try it.

01:41:59.000 All right, great.

01:41:59.000 Definitely.

01:42:01.000 How do you eat for the most part?

01:42:02.000 You said you eat fish and you eat through the full spectrum.

01:42:05.000 First of all, I try to grow a lot of my own food.

01:42:07.000 I love fresh stuff out of the garden.

01:42:09.000 I like to cook and I invent recipes, which is a lot of the recipes in the restaurant are mine.

01:42:14.000 Oh, great.

01:42:15.000 So I like simple, quick preparations that are really good.

01:42:21.000 Do you fast at all?

01:42:24.000 I've experimented with intermittent fasting, and I haven't found a regimen that works exactly right for me, but I'm fascinated by it.

01:42:31.000 I do 16 and 8. And how often do you do that?

01:42:35.000 I try to do it four days a week.

01:42:39.000 Sometimes it's difficult when I travel.

01:42:41.000 Yeah.

01:42:42.000 But even then, I'm more accustomed to it than ever before.

01:42:46.000 So if, you know, I eat dinner at 8 o'clock at night, it's not hard to wait until noon.

01:42:52.000 To push it back, okay.

01:42:53.000 Yeah, it's not hard.

01:42:54.000 My body's just really used to it now.

01:42:56.000 How long have you been doing it?

01:42:57.000 About a year or so, maybe a little bit more than that.

01:42:59.000 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I will continue to experiment with it.

01:43:05.000 What I haven't done that I really have been thinking a lot about doing is doing a multiple day fast, just a water fast for three or four days.

01:43:12.000 The longest I've done it for is three days.

01:43:14.000 Yeah, how was that?

01:43:14.000 The first day was difficult.

01:43:17.000 Or actually the second day was difficult.

01:43:19.000 The third day, fabulous.

01:43:20.000 I felt energized, high, my mind working very clear.

01:43:23.000 The problem that I have is how do you come off it?

01:43:27.000 Because it's like very easy to slide into eating pizza.

01:43:32.000 Crispy cream toast.

01:43:32.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:43:33.000 Yeah.

01:43:34.000 I think there's protocols in terms of like small amounts of fruit.

01:43:38.000 Right.

01:43:38.000 Like right when you're coming out, like blueberries or something like that.

01:43:41.000 But that to me was the tricky part, was transitioning off it.

01:43:44.000 Too fast. 1.00

01:43:45.000 The fucking bell. 1.00

01:43:46.000 Exactly. 1.00

01:43:46.000 The buzzer rang. 1.00

01:43:47.000 School's out for summer.

01:43:49.000 Yeah, I get it.

01:43:51.000 Especially if you feel like you earned it.

01:43:53.000 You didn't eat for three days.

01:43:54.000 You want that pizza.

01:43:55.000 Right.

01:43:56.000 One of the things I found when I was doing it, having a bowl of matcha.

01:44:00.000 Normally, my pattern is I want to eat as soon as I get up.

01:44:03.000 So those morning hours are hard for me.

01:44:05.000 But if I have my matcha, that helps.

01:44:09.000 Do you exercise?

01:44:10.000 I do.

01:44:10.000 I swim mostly.

01:44:11.000 Swim and walk.

01:44:12.000 Every day.

01:44:13.000 I find that once my body got used to fasted exercise, it became much, much easier.

01:44:21.000 Before, I would almost have anxiety attached to it.

01:44:25.000 Like, God, I can't work out without food.

01:44:27.000 I have to eat.

01:44:28.000 And then when I started doing the intermittent fasting, and then I started doing fasted exercise, I think it was...

01:44:36.000 I'm sure if you probably measured me in terms of like you did a bunch of weightlifting exercises and measured my output, I probably would be able to lift more weights if I had some fruit first.

01:44:48.000 I'm pretty sure I'd have a little bit more energy.

01:44:51.000 Probably measurable.

01:44:52.000 But it's not difficult to have a vigorous workout in the morning when you're fasted.

01:44:57.000 You just got to get used to it.

01:44:59.000 I often do either hot yoga or run first thing in the morning.

01:45:04.000 Weightlifting seems to be a bit of an issue.

01:45:06.000 Weightlifting, I don't like.

01:45:07.000 I like to eat something before I lift weights.

01:45:10.000 But swimming?

01:45:11.000 What about you?

01:45:12.000 You ever fasted swim?

01:45:13.000 Yeah, I have.

01:45:14.000 It's fine.

01:45:15.000 No problem with it.

01:45:17.000 Now, why'd you get off the pot?

01:45:20.000 You know, it changed for me.

01:45:22.000 I really used it regularly in my 20s and 30s.

01:45:28.000 And when I first started using it, it was great.

01:45:31.000 I mean, it was like hilarious highs, laughing, you know.

01:45:34.000 Right.

01:45:35.000 Then it turned...

01:45:36.000 After several years, more introspective and interesting.

01:45:41.000 I got creative, my writing for helping writing, stuff like that.

01:45:44.000 And then gradually it transitioned into making me groggy and not doing much for me.

01:45:51.000 It took me a while to separate myself from it, but in the last years of it, it was groggy and sedated.

01:45:57.000 I think I changed.

01:45:58.000 My body changed.

01:45:59.000 That's interesting.

01:46:01.000 Have you ever tried different strains?

01:46:04.000 First of all, I don't like to smoke because I'm really into breathing and I just can't put smoke into my lungs.

01:46:09.000 I've tried vaping.

01:46:11.000 I just don't like the effect of it these days.

01:46:13.000 Vaping?

01:46:14.000 Yeah.

01:46:14.000 I just don't like the effect.

01:46:16.000 I don't like oral.

01:46:17.000 It feels too strong for me.

01:46:20.000 Yeah.

01:46:20.000 Well, when you're talking about that half of a grain of sand putting you on Pluto for 12 hours, a grain of rice, a grain of sand, that'd be funny.

01:46:29.000 Imagine that.

01:46:30.000 That would be like acid.

01:46:31.000 Yeah, it was felt like acid.

01:46:33.000 Yeah, well, boy, I'll tell you...

01:46:36.000 For me, the most profound and intense experience I ever have in the sensory deprivation tank are edible marijuana.

01:46:43.000 Edible marijuana in that tank, that combination is just, whoa!

01:46:47.000 A real strong dose.

01:46:50.000 Have you done the tank at all?

01:46:52.000 Yeah, but not with pot, not with psychedelics.

01:46:55.000 That was a long time ago, yeah.

01:46:57.000 Well, even sober, you have some pretty trippy experiences while you're in there.

01:47:00.000 But there's something about the – what I experienced with edible marijuana is that when you close your eyes, you get a lot of really cool visuals.

01:47:11.000 Like I've had it before when I take pot and then get on a plane.

01:47:14.000 Like I'll eat right when I park my car at the airport or when I'm leaving the house.

01:47:19.000 Then it kicks in when you're on the plane.

01:47:20.000 Like, yikes!

01:47:22.000 Closing your eyes, something about closing your eyes, you have really brightly colored visuals, oftentimes.

01:47:30.000 And I get that a lot inside the tank with marijuana.

01:47:36.000 I had that with that real strong stuff.

01:47:38.000 I definitely had a lot of visual stuff.

01:47:40.000 Yeah, that's what's weird about it, right?

01:47:41.000 It's like it does become a psychedelic, especially at high doses.

01:47:46.000 Why are they making that stuff so strong?

01:47:48.000 Half a grain of rice.

01:47:50.000 Unnecessary.

01:47:50.000 How many milligrams did they say it was?

01:47:52.000 I don't remember.

01:47:54.000 It wasn't much. 0.99

01:47:55.000 Because they've got these damn Chiba chews that are like 500 milligrams for one little cake. 0.99

01:48:01.000 One little thing like that, like 500 milligrams. 0.99

01:48:04.000 Why do you need that?

01:48:05.000 Because you started out with 10 and then you worked your way up to 500. I mean, I guess this is a tolerance issue with a lot of folks, right?

01:48:13.000 Yeah.

01:48:15.000 Yeah.

01:48:15.000 Do you regularly meditate?

01:48:21.000 I do.

01:48:22.000 I do.

01:48:22.000 Every morning when I get up.

01:48:24.000 What kind of meditation?

01:48:25.000 I first practiced Zen and then I took some Vipassana training and now I get up, I sit down, I do my breathing routine and then I just try to focus on body sensations and sounds in the room and when I'm caught up in my thoughts,

01:48:45.000 I just bring my attention back to my breathing.

01:48:48.000 But for me, I think that the sitting meditation, that's fine, but I think the goal is to be able to carry that state in all of your activities.

01:48:58.000 So for me, cooking is meditative.

01:49:01.000 Chopping vegetables, working with knives, that's very meditative for me.

01:49:07.000 So do you think that when you're having this meditation, whether it's Zen or whatever, that you're resetting the way you're going to go through life for the rest of the day?

01:49:19.000 Hopefully.

01:49:20.000 I mean, that's the goal is to carry that state throughout the day.

01:49:25.000 But you kind of have a responsibility, don't you agree?

01:49:28.000 Like, you're a guy who's teaching people how to live a more productive, healthier life.

01:49:33.000 You kind of have a responsibility to live your own productive, healthy life.

01:49:35.000 Yeah, I better, right.

01:49:36.000 I wouldn't feel right doing that if I didn't practice it myself.

01:49:39.000 It's slippery, right?

01:49:40.000 Yeah.

01:49:41.000 But I don't tell people to do things I don't do myself.

01:49:45.000 When you have some thoughts about things, like something like Iboga, would you be interested in trying it yourself?

01:49:50.000 Sure, yeah.

01:49:51.000 I haven't had the opportunity to do it.

01:49:53.000 It's supposed to be ruthlessly introspective.

01:49:55.000 I've never done it either. 0.98

01:49:56.000 But I've had friends who had pill problems who did it and cured them, but they said the ride is just 24 hours of like, what in the fuck am I doing?

01:50:07.000 And then once it's over, you have zero desire.

01:50:09.000 You know the way that it's used traditionally in Africa, the root?

01:50:13.000 These tribes that use it, it's hunters take it.

01:50:17.000 And they remain motionless for many hours on it.

01:50:21.000 And animals come close.

01:50:23.000 I mean, that always fascinated me.

01:50:26.000 That is fascinating.

01:50:29.000 Yeah, I wonder if taking it from the root, I wonder if they're getting the exact same experience as they're getting in these clinics.

01:50:37.000 I don't know.

01:50:39.000 To me, in terms of efficacy, if you look at the rates of relapse, they're so low.

01:50:47.000 Very, very high.

01:50:48.000 Yeah, it's crazy, right?

01:50:50.000 How successful that stuff is.

01:50:55.000 Nobody wants to talk about that.

01:50:56.000 All these clinics.

01:50:57.000 It's crazy how many rehab clinics there are.

01:50:59.000 We need you for six months.

01:51:01.000 Really? 0.98

01:51:01.000 Mexico says they kill it all in three days. 0.98

01:51:04.000 I can go down there and get into an aboga clinic. 0.98

01:51:07.000 Yep.

01:51:08.000 I want to find out more about it.

01:51:09.000 It's on my list.

01:51:10.000 But listen, man.

01:51:12.000 Thanks for being here.

01:51:13.000 Thanks for all the information that you've shared over the years.

01:51:16.000 I want you to do studies. 0.53

01:51:17.000 I'm burning yourself. 0.98

01:51:18.000 I will. 1.00

01:51:18.000 And getting punched. 1.00

01:51:19.000 I will.

01:51:21.000 Report back to me.

01:51:22.000 I will.

01:51:22.000 And tell people how they can find out about you.

01:51:25.000 What is your website, social media stuff?

01:51:27.000 My website is drweil.com, D-R-W-E-I-L.com.

01:51:31.000 And also check out integrativemedicine.arizona.edu, which is my academic website.

01:51:37.000 See the range of that.

01:51:39.000 And Matcha.com for high quality matcha.

01:51:42.000 And we have a special offer for your fans.

01:51:45.000 If you go to Matcha.com forward slash pages forward slash Joe Rogan, your listeners will get a special discount code.

01:51:53.000 And Matcha's M-A-T-C-H-A. Ladies and gentlemen.

01:51:58.000 All right.

01:51:58.000 Thank you, sir.

01:51:58.000 Appreciate it.

01:51:59.000 Good to talk to you.

01:51:59.000 Good to talk to you, too.

The Joe Rogan Experience - December 12, 2018

Joe Rogan Experience #1213 - Dr. Andrew Weil

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Transcript