The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1215 - Ben O'Brien

00:00:04.000 Three, two, one.

00:00:06.000 Was this beverage concocted by you?

00:00:10.000 Was it the first one?

00:00:11.000 Yes.

00:00:12.000 You created Rye Brain.

00:00:14.000 If you ask me, yes.

00:00:16.000 If you ask Dudley, what does he say?

00:00:17.000 He would say maybe he was there.

00:00:20.000 Maybe he was there.

00:00:21.000 He might have been there.

00:00:21.000 He was definitely there.

00:00:23.000 Yeah.

00:00:23.000 But whose ideas?

00:00:24.000 It's hard to say with these things, Joe.

00:00:25.000 Cheers, sir.

00:00:26.000 Cheers.

00:00:26.000 Good to see you.

00:00:27.000 You look good.

00:00:27.000 You look good, too.

00:00:29.000 I would do better with this shirt, right?

00:00:30.000 Look at that shirt.

00:00:30.000 This is the new Ben O'Brien special.

00:00:32.000 Get that shirt.

00:00:33.000 Can you get this from your website?

00:00:34.000 You go to TheMeatEater.com.

00:00:37.000 You go to the store, and it's there.

00:00:39.000 Yeah, so what people, you know, I had Steve on, Steve Rinella, our good friend, and we were talking about what they're doing, what MeatEater's doing.

00:00:48.000 But it's this very strange thing where this giant multimedia corporation has stepped in and they're throwing a ton of money.

00:00:57.000 At MeatEater and all these different companies that are involved in the outdoors.

00:01:02.000 All these outdoor activities.

00:01:04.000 That is true.

00:01:05.000 And they're putting it all together into one super network.

00:01:09.000 Juggernaut.

00:01:09.000 Juggernaut of outdoor activities.

00:01:11.000 It's true.

00:01:12.000 It's true.

00:01:12.000 Yeah, uh...

00:01:14.000 It is something I've never been a part of before.

00:01:17.000 Something like I've never seen before in the hunting industry.

00:01:19.000 Has it ever existed before?

00:01:21.000 I don't think so.

00:01:22.000 No.

00:01:22.000 I don't think so.

00:01:23.000 Can't be.

00:01:24.000 Can't be.

00:01:24.000 We would have known.

00:01:25.000 Yeah.

00:01:25.000 Well, what better to try than something that's never been done?

00:01:27.000 Well, you had been doing your podcast for what?

00:01:30.000 Like a year now?

00:01:30.000 How long have you been doing it?

00:01:31.000 It's been about 10 months.

00:01:32.000 About 10 months.

00:01:33.000 And we were just saying that I tried to get you to do one five years ago.

00:01:38.000 Five years ago?

00:01:39.000 Yeah.

00:01:39.000 Ben and I met on a moose hunt in British Columbia.

00:01:42.000 And I would say that it was like friendship at first. 0.99

00:01:45.000 Yeah, we had a great fucking time. 1.00

00:01:46.000 We had a great fucking time. 1.00

00:01:47.000 Shout out to Mike Hockridge out there in BC. Love you, buddy. 0.99

00:01:51.000 And Sam Soholt was with us as well.

00:01:53.000 I would always describe that as the most fun that I've ever had on a hunt.

00:01:58.000 It was a good time.

00:01:58.000 Maybe ever.

00:01:59.000 I don't know.

00:02:00.000 We've done a lot of stuff.

00:02:00.000 We were laughing a lot.

00:02:02.000 That's why.

00:02:02.000 It was like a lot of fun and a lot of...

00:02:04.000 It wasn't a lot of hardship.

00:02:06.000 Like, we didn't sleep in tents.

00:02:07.000 No, we slept at Mike's house, which is great.

00:02:09.000 And then, you know, it was a lot of hiking and stuff.

00:02:11.000 And, you know, it wasn't successful until like the very last couple of days.

00:02:16.000 And you shot a moose and the celebration was fantastic.

00:02:20.000 We had a good time.

00:02:21.000 We had a great time.

00:02:22.000 We got super hammered.

00:02:22.000 The last night, remember last night?

00:02:24.000 What were you drinking?

00:02:25.000 Like some kind of spiced rum or some kind?

00:02:27.000 I don't know.

00:02:28.000 It got real.

00:02:30.000 When you're drunk and you're drunk in the middle of nowhere and there's wolves everywhere, it's a different kind of drunk.

00:02:34.000 But remember?

00:02:37.000 Remember that we went and we shot your bull, right?

00:02:40.000 But then we took the heart and the liver and we started drinking heavily and you were up there just cooking liver and onions, cooking up a giant moose heart.

00:02:48.000 So we had like the fuel of organs of an animal you just killed.

00:02:51.000 Like just killed. 0.94

00:02:53.000 It's kind of like trash bag Canadian rum that was terrible. 0.86

00:02:56.000 Yeah.

00:02:56.000 And that's every party, dude.

00:02:58.000 But it worked.

00:02:58.000 It worked a real good.

00:02:59.000 I don't know what's good rum or bad rum at all, to me.

00:03:02.000 Like, I kind of get good whiskey now.

00:03:04.000 I understand whiskey.

00:03:06.000 Sort of, but...

00:03:07.000 Being Irish, it's just like, it all just goes in. 0.99

00:03:09.000 Gets in there.

00:03:10.000 And then it just does what it does when it's in there.

00:03:12.000 Yeah, once the party's begun.

00:03:13.000 Like, here's what I don't get.

00:03:15.000 Tequila.

00:03:16.000 People go, oh, this is good tequila.

00:03:17.000 Every tequila I ever drink, I go like this.

00:03:19.000 Whew! 0.99

00:03:20.000 What about that George Clooney tequila?

00:03:22.000 What is that?

00:03:23.000 He's got his own tequila?

00:03:23.000 Yeah, doesn't he?

00:03:24.000 Is it tequila, Jamie?

00:03:25.000 Jamie will know.

00:03:26.000 Listen, I'll tell you what.

00:03:28.000 Oh, it sounds like a fancy water bottle. 1.00

00:03:29.000 George Clooney tequila can suck a fat dick because Ron White's got his own tequila. 1.00

00:03:34.000 Numero Juan. 1.00

00:03:36.000 Yeah.

00:03:37.000 Sarcastic tequila.

00:03:38.000 It's just, that's what he calls it, Numero Juan tequila.

00:03:40.000 Numero Juan tequila.

00:03:41.000 I think that's what it's called, right?

00:03:43.000 Number Juan?

00:03:43.000 Or is it Number Juan?

00:03:45.000 Number Juan.

00:03:46.000 It's number one?

00:03:47.000 Number one.

00:03:48.000 But if George Clooney wasn't good enough at everything else and all handsome and wonderful, he made a tequila company and did it right.

00:03:54.000 If you listen to the origin story of it, they did it right. 1.00

00:03:57.000 Well, fuck his tequila company. 1.00

00:03:59.000 There's number one, Ron White. 1.00

00:04:01.000 It's good shit, too. 1.00

00:04:02.000 Ron's is good shit. 1.00

00:04:03.000 I think George Clooney's got enough money, so fuck him. 1.00

00:04:05.000 But I think he sold it for millions and billions of dollars. 1.00

00:04:08.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:04:08.000 See, what happened is he got married and he realized, listen, I'm going to have some money on the side in case this shit hits the rocks. 1.00

00:04:13.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:04:15.000 What do I like to do when I'm a little bit bored and not feeling it?

00:04:18.000 Tequila.

00:04:30.000 They all started with, I do.

00:04:31.000 They all started with, I love you, you're amazing.

00:04:34.000 And good intentions.

00:04:35.000 Started with good times, man.

00:04:36.000 I will say, again, I won't say the name of the person because that would just be mean.

00:04:40.000 Sprout them out. 1.00

00:04:41.000 Fuck it. 1.00

00:04:41.000 There was a feller that I knew in my younger years that got married and I was in the wedding party. 1.00

00:04:49.000 She got there.

00:04:51.000 That's weed. 0.78

00:04:51.000 It's very dangerous. 0.78

00:04:52.000 It's dangerous for you.

00:04:53.000 Yeah, it is.

00:04:54.000 You live in Montana.

00:04:55.000 You can't handle this yet.

00:04:56.000 No, no, no.

00:04:57.000 It's not legal there.

00:04:57.000 They made it illegal medical.

00:04:59.000 They made medical legal and then they voted it out.

00:05:02.000 Wow. 1.00

00:05:03.000 Fucking savages. 1.00

00:05:05.000 California, buddy. 1.00

00:05:06.000 They made medical legal and then they had dispensaries and then they voted the dispensaries out.

00:05:09.000 When I was in Bozeman, last time I was there, they were shutting down the doors of the dispensaries.

00:05:14.000 You live in the golden land here.

00:05:16.000 Yeah, but you know what?

00:05:18.000 I hesitate to say this, but it's probably for the best.

00:05:22.000 Just to keep people like me out of Bozeman.

00:05:23.000 We're in a safe space.

00:05:24.000 It's just me and you.

00:05:25.000 We're in the trust tree.

00:05:26.000 We're in the nest.

00:05:27.000 Bozeman is so special.

00:05:28.000 It's such a cool little town.

00:05:30.000 We shouldn't be talking about it.

00:05:31.000 I shouldn't be telling people about how great it is.

00:05:33.000 Let's not talk about it.

00:05:33.000 It's a terrible place.

00:05:34.000 Bears will eat you alive there. 0.92

00:05:35.000 They will eat you alive. 0.79

00:05:36.000 In the streets. 0.96

00:05:36.000 They're in the streets, Joe. 0.96

00:05:37.000 But the good thing is the dumb people get eaten by bears. 1.00

00:05:40.000 That's true. 1.00

00:05:42.000 People will turn up missing. 1.00

00:05:43.000 Like some asshole steals lawnmowers. 1.00

00:05:45.000 He'll just turn up missing. 1.00

00:05:47.000 What?

00:05:48.000 What?

00:05:48.000 He'll just turn up missing.

00:05:49.000 He'll be out there wandering through the forest.

00:05:52.000 Yeah, they get cocky.

00:05:53.000 You know, people that just make it to live to be 100 in L.A., they get eaten when they're like 35. Yeah.

00:05:59.000 In Bozeman.

00:06:00.000 Look at that.

00:06:01.000 That's Bozeman.

00:06:01.000 It's beautiful.

00:06:02.000 Jesus Christ, it's a beautiful place.

00:06:04.000 Yeah, but that's in the summer. 0.99

00:06:06.000 I don't give a fuck. 0.99

00:06:07.000 I was there in the summer. 0.99

00:06:08.000 In the winter, it's like...

00:06:09.000 It's like that, but white.

00:06:10.000 Yeah, you ever seen the show Game of Thrones?

00:06:12.000 Yeah.

00:06:12.000 In the winter, it's like White Walkers.

00:06:14.000 Right.

00:06:15.000 There's a large ice wall.

00:06:16.000 When did you move?

00:06:19.000 My family just moved there.

00:06:20.000 We just moved into our brand new home about three weeks ago there, Mr. Rogan.

00:06:25.000 But you were there before.

00:06:26.000 Were you renting?

00:06:27.000 Yeah, I was renting.

00:06:28.000 I lived out of a storage unit for a time.

00:06:30.000 Oh, I'd heard about this.

00:06:30.000 There was a rumor.

00:06:31.000 There was a rumor.

00:06:33.000 Wild Ben O'Brien lives in storage units. 1.00

00:06:36.000 Put a fucking cot in a storage unit. 1.00

00:06:37.000 I did. 1.00

00:06:37.000 It was a nice storage unit. 1.00

00:06:39.000 Shout out to Airport North Storage.

00:06:41.000 Yeah.

00:06:43.000 So did you sleep in there?

00:06:44.000 Did you get a gym membership or something?

00:06:47.000 Listen, Airport North Storage, it's time for me to tell the truth.

00:06:49.000 Oh my god, I can't believe you're coming clean with this.

00:06:51.000 I'm coming clean.

00:06:52.000 I did sleep in there some nights.

00:06:55.000 I slept in a storage unit.

00:06:57.000 Are there laws against that?

00:07:00.000 It's probably in the contract when you sign not to do that.

00:07:03.000 Really?

00:07:03.000 But I did it anyway.

00:07:04.000 What do you think will happen to you? 1.00

00:07:05.000 They would probably be like, get out of the storage unit and get a hotel, you weirdo, you fucking loser. 1.00

00:07:13.000 But I just did that as a sacrifice for my family. 1.00

00:07:15.000 We were building a house.

00:07:16.000 I needed to be where my job was.

00:07:18.000 Plus you could camp out there.

00:07:19.000 Yeah, you camp out there.

00:07:20.000 It's beautiful, man.

00:07:21.000 It's beautiful.

00:07:22.000 And Bozeman is so popular at that time of year that it's hard to...

00:07:25.000 Oh, that's right.

00:07:26.000 It's hard to find a place to stay for a short period of time.

00:07:29.000 Airbnbs and all that stuff.

00:07:30.000 That ain't really going down.

00:07:31.000 Amazing Airbnb.

00:07:33.000 They just figured out a way to rent houses out and make money when no one's there.

00:07:37.000 I'm good.

00:07:38.000 How did nobody ever figure that out before?

00:07:39.000 It's kind of crazy.

00:07:41.000 There's a lot of these technology companies.

00:07:43.000 Why weren't we doing that before?

00:07:44.000 Uber is a great one.

00:07:46.000 Dude, I was coming home the other night and there was five Lyfts behind me.

00:07:51.000 So, you know, Lyft is different because they have that weird thing on the dash, that little light on the dash.

00:07:56.000 And it was like I was being chased by these purple robots. 0.98

00:07:59.000 I was like, what the fuck is this? 0.99

00:08:00.000 This is strange. 0.99

00:08:01.000 I was going to ask if you heard the big storage unit story from the other day as you guys were just talking about that.

00:08:05.000 No.

00:08:05.000 This big storage unit story?

00:08:07.000 Yeah, you remember like the show that was on the storage wars or whatever?

00:08:09.000 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:10.000 The guy that was responsible for selling them to people sold one to a guy for $500 and inside was a safe that had $7.5 million in cash in it.

00:08:21.000 Look at that guy.

00:08:22.000 Was this on the show?

00:08:23.000 No, it wasn't on the show.

00:08:24.000 It just happened recently.

00:08:25.000 So the guy that bought it actually was contacted by lawyers from the people who owned it, and he made a deal with them.

00:08:32.000 What's the deal?

00:08:33.000 What's the deal?

00:08:34.000 He kept like a million or something like that.

00:08:35.000 He gave the rest back.

00:08:36.000 Joe, do you want to go into a business?

00:08:38.000 What, going to storage wars?

00:08:39.000 Yeah.

00:08:40.000 Look at that guy's face.

00:08:40.000 Look at his face.

00:08:41.000 What the fuck? 1.00

00:08:43.000 That's what he's saying. 1.00

00:08:44.000 I sold that fucking thing. 1.00

00:08:45.000 His lady is happy. 1.00

00:08:46.000 Imagine how... 0.99

00:08:47.000 Dumb you have to feel. 0.99

00:08:48.000 You have a whole show about people finding things in storage units. 0.99

00:08:51.000 You sell a storage unit, and it's got seven million dollars in it.

00:08:55.000 Seven and a half.

00:08:55.000 Seven and a half million dollars.

00:08:57.000 Still, though.

00:08:57.000 The dude gets to keep a million.

00:08:58.000 How does that work, though?

00:08:59.000 Isn't it his storage unit? 1.00

00:09:00.000 How about he tells that guy to fuck off? 1.00

00:09:02.000 I mean, if someone lost seven million dollars... 1.00

00:09:05.000 Well, first of all, how dirty is that money?

00:09:08.000 Exactly.

00:09:09.000 That money must be dirty.

00:09:10.000 Was it just the safe only in the storage unit?

00:09:13.000 Oh, that's got to be something bad.

00:09:14.000 You're going to get that handsome dude that was in the beginning of Ozarks, that handsome Mexican dude. 0.99

00:09:19.000 He's just a straight up murderer. 0.96

00:09:21.000 He's going to come visit you. 0.99

00:09:23.000 Hello, man.

00:09:24.000 Yeah, that guy was my favorite.

00:09:26.000 I was so sad when they...

00:09:27.000 Spoiler alert.

00:09:28.000 So sad when they killed him.

00:09:29.000 Like the dude from Breaking Bad that comes around?

00:09:31.000 Yeah.

00:09:31.000 The twins.

00:09:32.000 But did you see Ozark?

00:09:33.000 You ever see Ozark?

00:09:34.000 No.

00:09:34.000 I watched, like, the first couple episodes.

00:09:35.000 Well, I fucked it up for you. 0.99

00:09:37.000 Yeah. 0.84

00:09:37.000 Because it was a pivotal moment that I just gave away. 0.84

00:09:39.000 There's too many.

00:09:40.000 There's so many shows, though. 0.96

00:09:41.000 There are so many shows, but that's a damn good one. 0.87

00:09:43.000 Is it good? 0.99

00:09:44.000 That is a damn good show. 0.97

00:09:46.000 What's the guy who stars in that? 0.98

00:09:48.000 Jason Bateman?

00:09:48.000 Bateman.

00:09:49.000 He's excellent.

00:09:50.000 And the woman, Laura... 0.85

00:09:51.000 Linney.

00:09:52.000 Linney?

00:09:52.000 Yeah.

00:09:52.000 Linney?

00:09:53.000 She's amazing.

00:09:54.000 Yeah.

00:09:54.000 The family's amazing.

00:09:55.000 The kid's amazing. 1.00

00:09:56.000 It's a fucking show, man. 1.00

00:09:57.000 It's a show. 1.00

00:09:58.000 It's a show! 0.99

00:09:59.000 You get sucked in, and that Netflix lets you watch them all like a pig. 0.99

00:10:02.000 Are you ready? 0.99

00:10:03.000 Listen, let me ask you a question.

00:10:04.000 I ask a lot of people this, and I said this at a Christmas party with a bunch of hunters, and I got the stink eye.

00:10:11.000 What's this guy talking about?

00:10:13.000 Conservatives?

00:10:13.000 I don't know about that.

00:10:15.000 Maybe I'm just weird.

00:10:16.000 Have you ever seen the movie The Greatest Showman?

00:10:19.000 Oh, is that the musical?

00:10:21.000 It is.

00:10:22.000 I've been forced to watch segments of that with my wife and children.

00:10:25.000 It is fantastic.

00:10:27.000 It's a very good movie.

00:10:29.000 Hugh Jackman's an angel.

00:10:30.000 He's an angel.

00:10:31.000 An Australian angel.

00:10:32.000 He is.

00:10:33.000 He's sent down here to save us.

00:10:34.000 Save us.

00:10:35.000 You ever seen him dance and sing?

00:10:36.000 He's magical.

00:10:37.000 I'm a hunter.

00:10:38.000 I got a hunting podcast, but I'm telling you.

00:10:40.000 You're a manly man.

00:10:41.000 Look at that beard.

00:10:42.000 Yeah, look at this thing.

00:10:43.000 But I love that movie.

00:10:45.000 It's a great movie.

00:10:46.000 I listen to it on the Pandora, the greatest showman channel, and I sing the tunes.

00:10:49.000 Listen, dude, my favorite comedy on TV is the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.

00:10:53.000 Okay, so I can't be talking about manly things or non-manly things.

00:10:56.000 Hugh Jackman announces World Tour set to perform the greatest showman songs.

00:11:01.000 He's going to just sing the one-man show.

00:11:03.000 Look at him.

00:11:03.000 Wow, a one-man show.

00:11:05.000 He's a gorgeous man.

00:11:06.000 He's just, I mean, it's unbelievable.

00:11:08.000 Unbelievable.

00:11:09.000 But yeah, I get made fun of for this.

00:11:13.000 Of course, my son likes it, my wife likes it, but I enjoy, I get into like...

00:11:17.000 Wait a minute, your son, how old is he?

00:11:18.000 He's two.

00:11:18.000 He doesn't know any better.

00:11:19.000 Well, he's just like the music.

00:11:20.000 He's just happy that something's going on.

00:11:21.000 Yeah, he's just like there's something on the TV. He's not writing a critique after.

00:11:25.000 But if you put on Dora the Explorer and then you switch it over to that bullshit, he'd be like, is this fucking guy dancing? 1.00

00:11:30.000 No, he would be... 1.00

00:11:30.000 Put Dora back on! 1.00

00:11:31.000 Put Dora! 1.00

00:11:32.000 Yeah.

00:11:32.000 Listen, I think that I watch, like, if you watch things like Game of Thrones, where they're burning children.

00:11:40.000 Yeah.

00:11:40.000 And, like, it's entertaining, but sometimes I need a break.

00:11:42.000 I like to watch a man dance around and sing.

00:11:45.000 Or a woman, whatever, doesn't matter. 1.00

00:11:46.000 Those shows can get dark where you're like, what am I doing to myself?

00:11:50.000 You know, like Narcos.

00:11:52.000 Oh, yeah. 0.99

00:11:53.000 And they would just go into a fucking nightclub and gun people down and just sitting there watching, like, women and children get smoked. 1.00

00:11:58.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:11:58.000 And it's... 1.00

00:11:59.000 What's the other...

00:12:00.000 The show with Anthony Hopkins on HBO? What's that?

00:12:03.000 The robots?

00:12:04.000 I haven't seen that one.

00:12:04.000 Oh, Westworld.

00:12:05.000 Westworld.

00:12:06.000 That's the same way.

00:12:07.000 They're shooting kids on there.

00:12:08.000 Well, the kid's a robot.

00:12:09.000 We can just pop.

00:12:10.000 Yeah, they shot one right in the face.

00:12:11.000 It's dark.

00:12:11.000 So every once in a while you need to sprinkle a little bit of musical in your life.

00:12:15.000 I believe.

00:12:16.000 Yeah.

00:12:17.000 What is that, do you think, and here's, coming from a person that's been on a bunch of life-changing experiences, and I know you have, and I want to talk to you about some of them.

00:12:24.000 Yes.

00:12:25.000 Especially the one in Nepal where you almost died and you saw children and wolves.

00:12:28.000 Babies.

00:12:28.000 We talked about that on the- The last podcast, but it's probably, it would be worth revisiting.

00:12:34.000 What do you think this is?

00:12:36.000 Like, why are we so obsessed with life or death drama that's artificial?

00:12:42.000 Well, you see it in the show Westworld.

00:12:45.000 They talk about it being a game.

00:12:47.000 It being this game of excess.

00:12:49.000 Like, what can't I do in my real life?

00:12:51.000 So when you watch TV and you watch murdering and you watch this evil thing come to life, it really is something that you can be transported.

00:13:03.000 You can't do that in your regular life.

00:13:04.000 Well, for sure, with Westworld, what you're getting is basically a real live version of that Red Dead Redemption movie.

00:13:09.000 Yes, right.

00:13:10.000 So, when you play that, we were talking about the other day how this guy got in trouble because they have all these things in the game that you can do to people. 0.99

00:13:18.000 And this guy, like, tied this hooker up and threw her off a cliff and shit. 0.98

00:13:22.000 It's dark. 0.99

00:13:23.000 You can do whatever you want, but they were filming this stuff and putting it on YouTube.

00:13:26.000 And then YouTube would get mad, and YouTube pulled him off, but then people were like, well, wait a minute, though.

00:13:32.000 How come you can just do it?

00:13:35.000 Why did you have that in the game?

00:13:37.000 But it...

00:13:38.000 When my dad was my age, 30, 40 years ago, they would never have ever done anything like Game of Thrones or Westworld.

00:13:49.000 Ever.

00:13:50.000 Ever.

00:13:51.000 In fact, there was a Westworld and it wasn't anywhere near like it is in the modern day.

00:13:55.000 Good movie.

00:13:56.000 Yeah.

00:13:56.000 But I think we've just stretched out the limits to which we're willing to explore really terrible and evil things for entertainment.

00:14:03.000 Yeah.

00:14:04.000 We've definitely changed what we're willing to accept and where the bar is.

00:14:09.000 In terms of quality, the bar is through the roof.

00:14:12.000 Oh, through the roof.

00:14:13.000 It's immersive to the point where you can't even explain what you're experiencing when you're watching these shows.

00:14:18.000 Yeah, so if you go and you see some great comedy from the 1990s, like you watch a Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock special from the 90s, that holds up 100%.

00:14:31.000 Seinfeld holds up.

00:14:32.000 But what I'm saying is, if that was out today, it would be a 100% stand-up special.

00:14:39.000 It would be like, oh, you see the new Chris Rock, Bigger and Blacker? 0.99

00:14:41.000 It's fucking amazing. 0.99

00:14:43.000 But, if you tried to put some bullshit-ass 1990s TV show on, on Netflix, if you tried to finagle some... 1.00

00:14:55.000 CSI Miami type shit. 1.00

00:14:57.000 You know what I mean? 1.00

00:14:59.000 Some nonsense.

00:15:00.000 I don't know if CSI Miami...

00:15:01.000 Is that even a show?

00:15:02.000 Is that a real show?

00:15:03.000 Yeah, it's a show.

00:15:03.000 There's a CSI Miami?

00:15:04.000 There is.

00:15:05.000 There's several.

00:15:06.000 There's many CSIs.

00:15:07.000 I guessed.

00:15:08.000 Law and Order.

00:15:09.000 Law and Order.

00:15:10.000 There's so many of those.

00:15:11.000 But we've expanded our willingness to explore things that are...

00:15:14.000 I mean, Game of Thrones, for example, is one of the best shows ever created, in my opinion.

00:15:19.000 For sure.

00:15:20.000 But it explores some...

00:15:23.000 Unthinkable things.

00:15:24.000 Awful things.

00:15:25.000 Awful things. 0.99

00:15:26.000 Well, the whole show, spoiler alert, is around a brother and sister who fucked and had a whole family. 0.99

00:15:32.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:15:33.000 So it explores these things that we would never even touch upon in our media in the 50s, 60s, even the 70s.

00:15:40.000 We wouldn't be touching upon those things in a way that we do now.

00:15:42.000 No.

00:15:42.000 Not only that, but...

00:15:45.000 Here's the thing.

00:15:48.000 Law& Order is not a bad show.

00:15:49.000 Like, if you watch it, you'll be entertained.

00:15:51.000 No, it's not a bad show.

00:15:51.000 So what happened?

00:15:52.000 Why did we go not good enough?

00:15:54.000 Like, what was it?

00:15:56.000 Man, that's a question.

00:15:57.000 Is that what we did?

00:15:58.000 Did they go not good enough, or was it like porn? 0.98

00:16:04.000 If you watch porn, and you watch some porn from the 1980s, and then you flip through like you porn, not that I would ever do that, but if you did do that and looked at all the different categories, you'd be like, what the fuck happened? 0.96

00:16:16.000 Why is gagging something people are looking for? 0.98

00:16:20.000 It's not an accident.

00:16:22.000 It's like a category.

00:16:23.000 We've expanded our ability to conceive of things in a media space where we can create.

00:16:28.000 You can create dragons that breathe ice.

00:16:31.000 There's things you can be transported like, listen, this isn't real so I can do this.

00:16:37.000 I can have this scene of rape or infidelity or incest that seems appropriate to me only in this fantasy world.

00:16:48.000 Man, sometimes I get down on that stuff.

00:16:50.000 Like, you watch enough of it, you're just like, I need a musical.

00:16:53.000 I need to be inspired that life is grand.

00:16:56.000 And that's how I feel about it, man.

00:16:59.000 And sometimes it comes across and like, this dude watches musicals?

00:17:02.000 But I do for a little bit of a break sometimes.

00:17:05.000 There's nothing wrong with it.

00:17:06.000 What I'm weirded out about is this natural human inclination towards progression in everything, good or bad.

00:17:12.000 Is that things just keep ramping up.

00:17:15.000 Well, but we're progressing with our storylines for, like, humanity in a weird way in media, but we're also, like, suppressing a lot of our—we're trying to suppress through social justice a lot of the same things, right?

00:17:26.000 Well, some people are, but I think it's a small, very vocal minority.

00:17:30.000 I think in reality, there's—the vast majority of people who find out about said suppression are upset by it. 0.98

00:17:36.000 And they're like, what in the fuck are you talking about with this safe spaces and all this nonsense? 0.97

00:17:41.000 Most people that hear that stuff are going, oh, this is just nonsense by a few really loud activist types. 0.99

00:17:48.000 Even on my podcast, it's something as serious as hunting is, because you're killing stuff.

00:17:52.000 You're going out into the world and plucking something that you didn't put there.

00:17:55.000 You're taking it away.

00:17:58.000 I think the core of what I think you do well and what I think others should try to do is ask why.

00:18:04.000 Why are we willing to...

00:18:06.000 Why is Game of Thrones the most watched show that's on?

00:18:11.000 Right.

00:18:11.000 Why?

00:18:12.000 Why?

00:18:14.000 I think they get away with it because it's so fictitious, right?

00:18:19.000 It's so obviously fiction.

00:18:22.000 You're living in this fictional world.

00:18:24.000 You have fictional white walkers.

00:18:26.000 You have dragons.

00:18:28.000 You have people that can survive in fire.

00:18:30.000 Yeah, but there's parallels to real life and then these ridiculous fantasies, but then these parallels to real life that travel along the same path.

00:18:41.000 You don't get to choose between the dragons and the incest.

00:18:44.000 They're both there at the same time.

00:18:46.000 I think it fulfills a lot of base needs, but it does so in this way that's obviously false.

00:18:54.000 Yeah.

00:18:55.000 It's like, why are superheroes so huge to us?

00:18:58.000 If you stop and think about the number of blockbusters that are superhero movies, that are comic book movies.

00:19:04.000 They're coming out like once every couple of months now.

00:19:06.000 It's crazy!

00:19:07.000 That was a rare beast when I was a kid.

00:19:11.000 When I was a kid, if there was a Hulk movie, I would have jumped for joy. 0.97

00:19:14.000 There was no goddamn Spider-Man movie when I was a kid. 0.99

00:19:17.000 There was a TV show and it sucked. 0.99

00:19:19.000 Okay? 1.00

00:19:20.000 It was a goddamn cartoon TV show. 0.99

00:19:23.000 Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can. 1.00

00:19:27.000 Spins a web any size.

00:19:29.000 Catches thieves just like flies.

00:19:31.000 Look out!

00:19:32.000 Shhh!

00:19:33.000 Here comes a Spider-Man!

00:19:34.000 It was terrible.

00:19:35.000 And I used to get up early to watch it.

00:19:37.000 Because I was a huge comic book nerd.

00:19:39.000 You've watched the Lou Ferrigno Hulk, right? 0.99

00:19:41.000 Fuck yeah, I watched it. 0.99

00:19:42.000 That was a little bit... 0.99

00:19:42.000 I mean, you've watched the Batman with Adam West. 0.99

00:19:45.000 Yeah.

00:19:46.000 You watch him now and you're like, what is happening here?

00:19:48.000 So they came out with Superman.

00:19:50.000 He was like the first movies.

00:19:52.000 What is this, a Spider-Man TV show?

00:19:53.000 Wow, that's another TV show.

00:19:55.000 What's that guy in the background doing?

00:19:57.000 Who's that guy?

00:19:57.000 He don't look like he's doing anything good.

00:19:59.000 He's got a wooden stick. 0.99

00:20:00.000 He needs to know those shits are just for practice. 0.99

00:20:02.000 He needs to know that Spider-Man can shoot webs out of his hands and that wooden stick's probably not going to do much. 0.99

00:20:06.000 Then Spider-Man sort of changed his ability, right?

00:20:08.000 Yeah.

00:20:09.000 Because what he used to be able to do, like now, he could just basically fly.

00:20:11.000 I mean, he just hurls himself through the air and sticks to buildings, you know?

00:20:15.000 It used to be a little harder to swing around back then.

00:20:17.000 He's like, let me drop my backpack full of textbooks.

00:20:19.000 Yeah.

00:20:19.000 Get to it.

00:20:20.000 But he's...

00:20:21.000 There was no Spider-Man movies when I was a kid.

00:20:24.000 And there was a Superman movie.

00:20:25.000 And the Superman movie beget the Batman movie.

00:20:28.000 Batman movie came out.

00:20:29.000 Michael Keaton.

00:20:30.000 It was a big success.

00:20:32.000 People were shocked that Michael Keaton was Batman.

00:20:34.000 But it worked.

00:20:36.000 Was that like Danny DeVito was the penguin?

00:20:37.000 Yeah.

00:20:38.000 Everybody got a shot at Batman.

00:20:39.000 It was one of those things.

00:20:40.000 If you were Batman, you must be the It guy.

00:20:42.000 George Clooney was Batman.

00:20:43.000 George Clooney was Batman.

00:20:44.000 Christian Bale was Batman.

00:20:46.000 Arnold Schwarzenegger was Mr. Freeze, remember that?

00:20:48.000 That's right.

00:20:48.000 But they got to Ben Affleck and they went, nah, player.

00:20:51.000 They went, whoa.

00:20:52.000 Isn't that funny?

00:20:53.000 That's real.

00:20:54.000 The amount of people that will see you as Batman, it's whether or not they really believe it.

00:21:01.000 Christian Bale, I believe that guy could be Batman.

00:21:03.000 But Michael Keaton, for the longest time, was Batman.

00:21:07.000 Yes, but see, he started it off.

00:21:09.000 The difference between Michael Keaton is there was no one before him other than Bruce Wayne, and he was the first dark, real Batman.

00:21:17.000 I forgot about Val Kilmer.

00:21:19.000 I forgot about Val Kilmer. 1.00

00:21:22.000 God damn it. 1.00

00:21:23.000 Val Kilmer was fucking Batman. 1.00

00:21:24.000 What a talented human being Val Kilmer is. 1.00

00:21:27.000 He's a beast.

00:21:28.000 Dude, him as Doc Holliday in that, what's the name of that movie? 0.75

00:21:34.000 Tombstone?

00:21:35.000 Tombstone. 0.99

00:21:35.000 God damn, what's he doing in that movie? 0.99

00:21:37.000 That's one of the best westerns ever. 0.99

00:21:39.000 He was spooky.

00:21:39.000 He was believable.

00:21:40.000 That was a straight up murderer.

00:21:41.000 Probably still the most quoted.

00:21:43.000 But see, nobody will think back on Ben Affleck's career and be like, he was Batman.

00:21:47.000 It's not just that.

00:21:48.000 He's done some good movies.

00:21:49.000 Yeah.

00:21:50.000 But he's also...

00:21:51.000 He almost says there's nothing around his career that he must feel like, oh man, if this goes bad, it's going to ruin me.

00:21:56.000 He's done so many great things.

00:21:57.000 He's a very good actor.

00:21:59.000 Don't get me wrong.

00:22:01.000 But...

00:22:01.000 What is it about him?

00:22:06.000 Is he too handsome?

00:22:06.000 No, because Val Kilmer is gorgeous.

00:22:08.000 All those folks were very handsome.

00:22:10.000 What is it?

00:22:11.000 Is it Jiggly?

00:22:11.000 Is it him and Jennifer Lopez?

00:22:13.000 Is that it?

00:22:14.000 That was a tough time for him.

00:22:15.000 It was a tough time.

00:22:15.000 Did you say Jiggly?

00:22:16.000 Jiggly?

00:22:17.000 I think it was Gigli. 1.00

00:22:18.000 Whatever the fuck it is. 1.00

00:22:20.000 Whatever the fuck it is. 1.00

00:22:21.000 The man lost his mind. 1.00

00:22:22.000 Look, not everybody should get that kind of pussy. 1.00

00:22:25.000 It shouldn't be on your diet. 1.00

00:22:27.000 It's too rich for you.

00:22:28.000 Some people get diabetes, right?

00:22:29.000 They need to lay off the sugar. 0.98

00:22:31.000 Everybody's got different tolerances.

00:22:32.000 You eat cake every morning.

00:22:33.000 Jennifer Lopez, obviously, besides being beautiful and having a body like some sort of a test tube person, some lab-created super freak, obviously, she knows how to throw that thing. 1.00

00:22:46.000 She knows how to throw that thing. 1.00

00:22:48.000 I mean, it would be hard to argue with that fact. 1.00

00:22:50.000 Yeah, that's some goddamn Nolan Ryan pussy. 1.00

00:22:56.000 And together... 1.00

00:22:57.000 I'm not unaware of what you're talking about.

00:22:59.000 I love the fact that those things go so hard.

00:23:03.000 They go so hard and then they fizzle out.

00:23:05.000 You know what it's like? 0.99

00:23:06.000 It's like having a Pinto with a fucking Corvette ZR1 engine stuffed on the... 0.99

00:23:14.000 I just stomp on the gas on the highway, and there's no structure to it. 0.99

00:23:18.000 It's not designed.

00:23:19.000 Those wheels are not designed for that relationship.

00:23:22.000 Well, is that why?

00:23:23.000 You live in Hollywood.

00:23:23.000 You tell me.

00:23:24.000 Is that why these Hollywood relationships always become huge and then go away?

00:23:28.000 Sometimes they do.

00:23:30.000 Sometimes they work.

00:23:31.000 I live in Montana.

00:23:32.000 I don't know.

00:23:32.000 Here's my thing.

00:23:34.000 This Alex Rodriguez guy that she's with, super athlete.

00:23:37.000 Smashes it.

00:23:38.000 Obviously, it seems to be working.

00:23:40.000 They've been together for a long time.

00:23:41.000 How long have they been together, though?

00:23:43.000 Months.

00:23:45.000 Weeks!

00:23:46.000 They've been together for six weeks, Joe.

00:23:48.000 When she was with that little dude, the singer?

00:23:50.000 She got mad.

00:23:51.000 He was at the UFC that one time, remember?

00:23:53.000 Oh, that's right.

00:23:54.000 That's right.

00:23:55.000 Yeah, she left. 0.67

00:23:56.000 No, which one was that?

00:23:57.000 That was the dancer. 1.00

00:23:58.000 That was the dancer. 1.00

00:23:59.000 Can we take a quick, this is kind of a PSA, public service announcement.

00:24:04.000 Can we take a hard left to Jennifer Lopez and get ourselves over to Kanye West real quick?

00:24:08.000 Yeah, we can, but look at that.

00:24:09.000 Alex Rodriguez.

00:24:10.000 Okay, take a look at that man.

00:24:11.000 Super athlete. 1.00

00:24:12.000 Probably got a dick like a goddamn baseball bat, right? 1.00

00:24:15.000 Anybody that has that many buttons... 1.00

00:24:17.000 Look at his hands!

00:24:17.000 Look at those top buttons coming down.

00:24:18.000 The size of his fist.

00:24:19.000 The size of that guy's paw.

00:24:22.000 He's had two plus $200 million contracts.

00:24:24.000 Yes.

00:24:25.000 So he's doing...

00:24:25.000 So he's got $400 million and a giant hog.

00:24:28.000 But that...

00:24:28.000 And he's a super athlete.

00:24:30.000 Of course it's going to work.

00:24:32.000 He's going to smash.

00:24:33.000 He's going to keep it together.

00:24:34.000 Let's talk about hunting.

00:24:35.000 He knows...

00:24:35.000 That guy knows how to keep it together.

00:24:37.000 Right?

00:24:37.000 That guy knows.

00:24:38.000 He knows how to play. 1.00

00:24:39.000 When the ball's coming his way, he smashes that fucking thing. 1.00

00:24:42.000 You gotta think Jennifer Lopez is not tolerating any losers in her life at this point. 1.00

00:24:45.000 That's all that's left. 0.94

00:24:46.000 She's had a few.

00:24:47.000 But that's all that's left.

00:24:48.000 Look at that guy.

00:24:49.000 Yeah.

00:24:49.000 There you go.

00:24:50.000 Super athlete.

00:24:50.000 Big, giant, handsome.

00:24:52.000 I'm a big sports fan.

00:24:52.000 I came up when he was just...

00:24:53.000 He was...

00:24:54.000 It was a god.

00:24:55.000 A baseball god.

00:24:56.000 They seemed to get along together.

00:24:57.000 See, that makes sense to me.

00:24:58.000 Just like it made sense when Val Kilmer was Batman.

00:25:01.000 That made sense to me.

00:25:02.000 But when Ben Affleck...

00:25:04.000 I don't know how his relationship was with her.

00:25:06.000 I don't know.

00:25:06.000 Maybe it was great.

00:25:07.000 It seemed like it was tumultuous, but I'm just observing. 0.99

00:25:10.000 The fuck do I know? 0.98

00:25:11.000 Nobody knows. 0.99

00:25:12.000 But there's some people where you need to have an online vote.

00:25:16.000 Should this person be Batman?

00:25:18.000 And the people will tell you.

00:25:20.000 They would not have voted.

00:25:21.000 I do not believe they would have voted for Ben Affleck.

00:25:23.000 Right.

00:25:23.000 I do not believe.

00:25:24.000 Here's the problem.

00:25:25.000 Like, The Rock.

00:25:25.000 Too big for Batman.

00:25:27.000 Here's why.

00:25:28.000 Because everybody would be like, oh, it's you, The Rock. 1.00

00:25:30.000 You're wearing a fucking Batsuit. 1.00

00:25:32.000 Is that The Rock? 1.00

00:25:32.000 Not everybody's 6'9". 1.00

00:25:33.000 They could do that in the movie, though.

00:25:35.000 They could make it funny and be like, yeah.

00:25:37.000 Are you?

00:25:37.000 In the movie, they could make it funny.

00:25:38.000 Yeah.

00:25:39.000 Right.

00:25:40.000 Is this The Rock?

00:25:40.000 Are you The Rock?

00:25:41.000 He could never be Superman.

00:25:43.000 No. 1.00

00:25:43.000 Takes his fucking glasses off. 1.00

00:25:44.000 You're like, you're still a giant dude. 1.00

00:25:45.000 Well, the last time... 1.00

00:25:46.000 That shit doesn't work. 1.00

00:25:48.000 But that's how it works. 1.00

00:25:49.000 You have to be a regular sized person.

00:25:50.000 But that's how it works.

00:25:51.000 The last guy that was a Superman was an unknown.

00:25:54.000 Henry...

00:25:55.000 Superman, they ran out.

00:25:56.000 They ran out of the well.

00:25:57.000 The well's dry.

00:25:58.000 It's like if they try to make another Hulk.

00:26:00.000 People are going to go, enough.

00:26:01.000 You've had eight Hulks.

00:26:02.000 They're going to keep making them, dude.

00:26:03.000 They're going to make a hundred more Star Wars in the next five years.

00:26:05.000 And you're going to have to sit through Han Solo, the pre-pre-prequel.

00:26:10.000 How can they do that?

00:26:12.000 That doesn't make any sense because Harrison Ford was Han Solo when Han Solo was young.

00:26:16.000 You can't just do that.

00:26:18.000 They just came out with a Han Solo movie.

00:26:19.000 I think they decided to reel back on that because that last one didn't do it.

00:26:21.000 It was a flop!

00:26:22.000 They need to ask me.

00:26:24.000 Just ask me.

00:26:25.000 They need to ask Joe.

00:26:25.000 I'm here for you.

00:26:27.000 George Lucas?

00:26:27.000 George Lucas is right now bathing in money.

00:26:30.000 He's just lying back in a warm, wet money bath.

00:26:33.000 He just forgot to listen to the podcast.

00:26:35.000 He just gets touched all day.

00:26:38.000 Rocky's going to be a superhero.

00:26:40.000 What?

00:26:40.000 He's going to start shooting next year called Black Adam.

00:26:44.000 It's a DC... Oh, they're making up...

00:26:45.000 They ran out of superheroes.

00:26:46.000 Is that Superman in the background?

00:26:48.000 That's Superman in the background.

00:26:49.000 That's in the DC... That's in the DC universe?

00:26:51.000 There he is.

00:26:51.000 Look, there he is.

00:26:52.000 They ran out of superheroes.

00:26:54.000 I mean, he looks good.

00:26:55.000 Yeah, but as long as they don't try to make him Superman.

00:26:57.000 Is he a bad guy?

00:26:58.000 Jamie, is he a bad guy or a good guy?

00:26:59.000 I honestly have never heard of this character, so I have no idea where he fits in the...

00:27:03.000 I remember when Netflix came out with Luke Cage.

00:27:05.000 I was like, wow, that's an obscure one.

00:27:07.000 That was a good one, though.

00:27:08.000 But The Black Panther was good. 0.98

00:27:09.000 Yeah, The Black Panther was good, too.

00:27:10.000 It's a great movie.

00:27:11.000 Yeah, it's amazing it took so long to make a Black Panther movie. 0.96

00:27:14.000 Racist!

00:27:15.000 Took so long, and it was a giant smash hit. 1.00

00:27:18.000 There you go, white people. 0.98

00:27:19.000 Get it together. 0.99

00:27:20.000 No comment.

00:27:23.000 Ben O'Brien in the conservative world has to be careful.

00:27:26.000 This podcast could sink his ship.

00:27:27.000 I'm pro-nuance.

00:27:29.000 Yeah.

00:27:30.000 How'd you come up with this shirt? 1.00

00:27:31.000 Pro-nuance type bullshit? 0.98

00:27:33.000 Listen, I think the way that I came up with it is because in the hunting world, there is this, speaking of conservative, there's this like, there's a conservative traditionalist, right? 0.99

00:27:42.000 Yeah.

00:27:42.000 And there's the more progressive folks that you have met and been around.

00:27:46.000 You've been around both, but been around both that are more environmentalists, more public lands, more access, right?

00:27:52.000 So there's kind of like two, of course, there's always two sides in politics, but there's, in this case, two distinct sides, right?

00:27:57.000 Yeah.

00:27:58.000 And the line kind of gets drawn around, one, a little bit around guns, but also a little bit around the environment.

00:28:03.000 So part of the biggest issue in politics for a hunter or angler right now is like, I really like guns.

00:28:10.000 I like the Second Amendment.

00:28:11.000 I dig what's going on there.

00:28:12.000 I'd like to support that.

00:28:13.000 But what I also like is healthy ecosystems and environment.

00:28:17.000 And I like habitat for wild game to live and public lands and access.

00:28:22.000 Well, it just so happens that a lot of the A-plus rated politicians for the NRA are like F-minus or D-plus rated in protecting wildlife and wild lands.

00:28:33.000 And a lot of that's around extraction and different things like that.

00:28:36.000 Extraction of minerals and oil and natural resources from those lands.

00:28:39.000 From valuable lands, right?

00:28:40.000 So then change the way these lands are scheduled, like what it's under?

00:28:45.000 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of...

00:28:46.000 Those are around monuments, of course.

00:28:48.000 That was one big one.

00:28:49.000 But it's just around the general basis of...

00:28:52.000 Even as a hunter, but all Americans. 0.98

00:28:53.000 But as a hunter, I'm faced with, like, I love wildlife.

00:28:56.000 I love wild places, clean water, clean lands.

00:28:59.000 I'm all for that.

00:29:00.000 That's a huge part of what I believe in.

00:29:02.000 But I also believe in the Second Amendment.

00:29:04.000 I believe in my right to defend my family.

00:29:06.000 I believe in my right to own firearms and to do that.

00:29:09.000 So I believe in those two things.

00:29:10.000 But because our politics are the way they are, it doesn't leave room for those two beliefs when I'm at the voting booth sometimes.

00:29:19.000 Not all the time.

00:29:20.000 It doesn't...

00:29:21.000 It hardly leaves room for those beliefs in normal conversations with people, unless you absolutely know that the person's going to be objective and, as your shirt says, pro-nuance.

00:29:31.000 The idea that you shouldn't be able to defend your family is where it gets crazy.

00:29:38.000 It doesn't get crazy that you want to be able to defend your family.

00:29:41.000 Why do these movies all have...

00:29:44.000 Robberies and break-ins and bad guys.

00:29:48.000 Why?

00:29:49.000 These are real things.

00:29:50.000 These are real things. 0.99

00:29:51.000 So the idea that you should just be a sitting duck because there's so many crazy fucks out there that want to shoot up schools and go on mass shootings that somehow or another you're being conflated with them. 0.99

00:30:03.000 That you're being confused with them or categorized with them. 0.99

00:30:07.000 How is that?

00:30:09.000 These are different things.

00:30:10.000 They are different things.

00:30:11.000 They're just both involved guns.

00:30:12.000 They are different things.

00:30:13.000 It's like the insult that drove all those people in Toronto.

00:30:17.000 Remember that?

00:30:18.000 Yep.

00:30:19.000 What if that keeps happening?

00:30:21.000 That's happened many times.

00:30:22.000 You've seen people kill people with cars over the last few years.

00:30:24.000 It's been like four or five big events.

00:30:26.000 Are they mutually exclusive?

00:30:27.000 Like, I want to be able to defend my family and own firearms and have that freedom.

00:30:31.000 That's a big part of this country.

00:30:32.000 But I also don't want people to die in mass shootings.

00:30:35.000 I don't want that.

00:30:37.000 Of course.

00:30:37.000 On the other side of the coin, when it comes to environmental issues around hunting public lands and things of that nature, I want coal miners to have jobs.

00:30:46.000 I want...

00:30:47.000 People that work in the extraction industries to have an opportunity to work and live and do what they need to do. 0.99

00:30:53.000 But I also want to protect our ecosystems at all costs because you can't replace that shit. 0.99

00:30:58.000 Right. 0.99

00:30:58.000 And there's got to be other jobs out there if the government put its resources instead to propping up old ways of doing business that pollute the environment versus new ways of doing business with subsidies and with government programs. 0.99

00:31:14.000 It's entirely possible.

00:31:15.000 Yeah, there are certainly reasonable and healthy ways to mine copper.

00:31:20.000 Is there?

00:31:21.000 I don't know.

00:31:22.000 There is.

00:31:23.000 I mean, there's responsible ways to do that, but at what cost?

00:31:29.000 You're still extracting.

00:31:31.000 Right.

00:31:31.000 You're still...

00:31:32.000 You're doing something.

00:31:33.000 You're still changing the natural environment there.

00:31:36.000 Yeah, someone was trying to make that argument with fracking with me.

00:31:38.000 I was talking to him about that.

00:31:40.000 Is it Josh Fox's documentary?

00:31:42.000 Yeah.

00:31:44.000 He was on the podcast, Fracking Nation.

00:31:50.000 It was a very good documentary.

00:31:54.000 When I had him on the podcast, it was interesting because he seemed like he had been attacked a lot for it and even misunderstood some of the questions I was asking.

00:32:02.000 Maybe they were coming from me.

00:32:03.000 And I was saying, no, this is just like, what is it called?

00:32:05.000 Fracking Nation? 0.91

00:32:06.000 What is it?

00:32:07.000 Gasland?

00:32:08.000 Gasland.

00:32:08.000 That's it.

00:32:09.000 Oh, yeah.

00:32:09.000 Okay.

00:32:10.000 It's disturbing.

00:32:12.000 You're watching some aspects of it, like when they're lighting their water on fire, and then someone tried to say, oh, there's some places where you've always been able to light your water on fire.

00:32:21.000 I was like, okay, wait a minute.

00:32:23.000 Okay.

00:32:23.000 That's a long American tradition of lighting your water on fire.

00:32:26.000 This was a real argument that someone said.

00:32:28.000 That's not really from fracking.

00:32:29.000 And I said, okay.

00:32:30.000 These people said that there was no lighting the water on fire.

00:32:34.000 Then people started fracking. 1.00

00:32:35.000 The water smelled like shit. 0.99

00:32:36.000 They started lighting it on fire. 0.99

00:32:38.000 You're saying those are not connected.

00:32:41.000 Over the years, Joe, we've been able to light our water on fire for a number of reasons.

00:32:46.000 Fourth of July.

00:32:47.000 I would think to be confident about that, and I'm not confident about it, but to be confident about what that guy said to me when he was saying that it's always been like that, you would have to have done massive research.

00:32:58.000 You would have to have spent time there.

00:33:01.000 You would have to have been working either directly or indirectly with the scientists that are collecting the data.

00:33:07.000 You'd have to get it from them.

00:33:08.000 You'd have to know.

00:33:09.000 You'd have to see it.

00:33:10.000 You'd have to know for sure.

00:33:11.000 Of course you would.

00:33:11.000 Or you have to be a person who is not interested in the actual truth.

00:33:17.000 They just have an idea that they want to push through.

00:33:19.000 And this is a weird thing with certain right-wing folks. 1.00

00:33:23.000 There's a weird thing they want to push through that business is good and environmentalists are all pussies and hippies and weirdos and losers. 0.99

00:33:31.000 And these things don't jive in the world of someone who actually loves and appreciates the actual earth. 0.99

00:33:37.000 Of course.

00:33:38.000 Of course, man.

00:33:38.000 It's weird.

00:33:39.000 But there's no way that anyone could argue, right?

00:33:43.000 In the hunting world, there's nothing like access and public land and all these things become a big deal.

00:33:49.000 But you can define access in a ton of different ways.

00:33:53.000 Yeah.

00:33:53.000 To me, access could be, I like wilderness, where the only way you can access it is on foot, via trailhead.

00:34:01.000 Someone else might say, access to me is elderly folks or disabled folks be able to get into a car and drive through a road on public land or get into an ATV and drive.

00:34:12.000 And so...

00:34:14.000 Politics, being what they are, politicians take this term of access.

00:34:19.000 It happened around national monuments.

00:34:21.000 They take one side said the president is stealing your land and the other side says the president is giving back your land. 1.00

00:34:29.000 Somebody there, either both sides are full of shit or one of them is. 0.99

00:34:33.000 I remember when this came up, Patagonia, which is a giant company in the outdoors, had a big ad on the internet that said the president just stole your land. 0.99

00:34:42.000 And then I heard Ronello talk about it and he said, I'm going to paraphrase, but he basically said, if you say that the president stole your land, you're not being careful with your words.

00:34:52.000 And you're not being active.

00:34:53.000 You're being inflammatory.

00:34:54.000 Yes.

00:34:54.000 You're being absolutely inflammatory.

00:34:56.000 Yeah.

00:34:56.000 Because it's not...

00:34:56.000 Again, that...

00:34:58.000 We're talking about Grand Staircase Cicillante and Bears Ears National Monument.

00:35:01.000 Bears Ears being...

00:35:03.000 In Utah being...

00:35:04.000 Explain to people what happened.

00:35:06.000 Oh, boy.

00:35:06.000 If you will.

00:35:07.000 I'll do my best, Joe.

00:35:08.000 Please do.

00:35:09.000 Thank you.

00:35:09.000 Thank you, Ben.

00:35:10.000 So, the Antiquities Act.

00:35:13.000 Let's go back to the Antiquities Act.

00:35:14.000 Right.

00:35:14.000 It's to protect...

00:35:16.000 The Antiquities Act is to protect...

00:35:19.000 Culturally or socially, emotionally culturally significant pieces of land.

00:35:25.000 All the way to things like the Grand Canyon, right?

00:35:28.000 And so, spin it up to the end of, there's a lot that I just skipped over, but I'm going to spin it up to the end of the Obama administration.

00:35:37.000 President Obama used his executive power to protect large swaths, millions of acres around Bears Ears National Monument, to protect not only the significant places for Native Americans and for Native tribesmen around Bears Ears,

00:35:56.000 but many millions of acres around that.

00:35:59.000 And so, then it becomes, the problem I have and why that t-shirt exists, it becomes a political football throwback and forth.

00:36:07.000 It's not, at this point in time, what's best for Bears Ears, what's best for that national monument, what's best for it to be federally owned, what's best for the people, the jobs, the place.

00:36:18.000 It becomes what's best for each side and their rhetoric.

00:36:23.000 And so President Trump asked former Secretary of Interior Ryan Zinke to review, I think it was like ten monuments, to see if they should be reduced based on the predictions that Obama had put into place.

00:36:38.000 So he reviews these ten monuments, he cuts out eight of them, and hones in on two places, Bears Ears and Grand Staircase Escalante.

00:36:48.000 They then say we're going to reduce the size of these monuments.

00:36:52.000 When you say cuts out eight of them, what do you mean by cuts out?

00:36:54.000 They review the other eight and say...

00:36:56.000 They're fine.

00:36:56.000 They're good to go.

00:36:57.000 No changes necessary.

00:36:59.000 Some would say they did that as a straw man, as eight straw men, to knock them over and look at those other two.

00:37:05.000 They said we will reduce the area that is designated as a national monument.

00:37:12.000 And here again, it comes to both sides.

00:37:15.000 They would say because...

00:37:17.000 President Obama wielded his powers corruptly to protect, to be as an environmentalist, to protect lands that didn't need protected under the Antiquities Act.

00:37:27.000 Because the Antiquities Act does say it should be the smallest acreage possible to protect.

00:37:31.000 So now you get into stuff that I'm not an expert in around legal jargon and going back to things that were written in the 1930s.

00:37:39.000 But...

00:37:41.000 We get to a point where one side's saying, here is the Republicans trying to shrink down these monuments so that they can then go, companies that are, can then go and lease these places for mining, but they can't currently do under protections as a national monument.

00:37:59.000 The other side is saying, we're trying to protect culturally significant lands and these millions of acres need protected.

00:38:06.000 They need protected for lots of reasons.

00:38:07.000 So you end up with those two sides talking.

00:38:12.000 Now, it's easy to sort of make a hyperbolic argument one way or the other, right?

00:38:26.000 Yeah.

00:38:27.000 I mean, you could kind of exaggerate your position one way or the other.

00:38:29.000 And it's being done that way.

00:38:31.000 It's been done that way.

00:38:32.000 Are they drilling there now?

00:38:34.000 Or doing something?

00:38:36.000 Let's look that up.

00:38:37.000 But there's some leases that were approved for Bears Ears, I know for sure.

00:38:41.000 See, that's one of the things where people talk about...

00:38:49.000 I'm not the expert on this.

00:38:55.000 I'm sure I fumbled through some of the details on that, but to me, the bottom line is something like that Why I like to live in the center is because something like that becomes, it becomes a thing that, it becomes a PR hit.

00:39:09.000 Yeah.

00:39:10.000 It becomes a thing that people are throwing back, they're throwing bear's ears back and forth because at the end of Obama's administration he made the designation and they repealed it or reversed it a year later.

00:39:21.000 Right.

00:39:22.000 Or some amount of time around a year later.

00:39:24.000 So it was only the way it was for a year.

00:39:26.000 And everybody's making it look like the government stole your land.

00:39:29.000 They just brought it back to exactly where it was before.

00:39:31.000 But they did open up the possibility, which is why Obama did it in the first place.

00:39:35.000 They opened up the possibility for drilling and natural resource extraction.

00:39:39.000 And that's what scares the shit out of people.

00:39:43.000 In these situations, there always seems to be spin on both sides, and being a part of these debates on a daily basis, and bringing in this information on a daily basis, it's tiresome.

00:39:57.000 You get tired.

00:39:58.000 You get tired of being pandered to by people.

00:40:02.000 You get tired of having to hear that this value system is right or this value system is right and there's no room to be anywhere close to the center around this stuff.

00:40:10.000 So you just get...

00:40:11.000 It's tiresome.

00:40:12.000 You know...

00:40:14.000 Public lands are the only place where I look at it and say, no, you've got to leave that to the government.

00:40:20.000 You've got to leave it to the federal government.

00:40:21.000 Don't leave it to the states.

00:40:23.000 It's the only place.

00:40:24.000 I mean, when I think about all the different things, like with...

00:40:28.000 Like, legalization of marijuana.

00:40:30.000 Now they're going to legalize psilocybin, apparently, in Oregon.

00:40:32.000 They're talking about doing that.

00:40:33.000 I'm like, yeah, leave it to the states.

00:40:34.000 They should be able to vote that in.

00:40:36.000 They should be able to vote in.

00:40:37.000 Like, all the crazy laws you have in weird states, and some states have state taxes, some states don't.

00:40:43.000 It's all good.

00:40:43.000 That's all good.

00:40:44.000 But when it comes to, like, federal land, the problem is if these states get into debt, and this is what people need to understand, they can sell it off.

00:40:51.000 So if Utah is in debt, I'm just not picking on Utah, but if they just, for some reason, they wind up in debt, which states do all the time, and then they sell off a giant chunk of land to some oil company, now you can't camp there anymore. 0.98

00:41:07.000 And by the way, that's your fucking land. 0.97

00:41:10.000 You pay taxes on that land. 1.00

00:41:12.000 That's your land.

00:41:13.000 You live in Arizona.

00:41:14.000 You live in Florida.

00:41:16.000 That's your land.

00:41:17.000 You live in Massachusetts.

00:41:18.000 It's yours. 0.99

00:41:19.000 The land in Utah is the whole fucking all of us. 0.99

00:41:23.000 The collected human race living on North America. 0.99

00:41:26.000 Listen to this. 1.00

00:41:27.000 Listen to this shit. 1.00

00:41:28.000 There's a guy named Senator Mike Lee out of the great state of Utah, which you rightly put that a lot of these things revolve around Utah for some reason. 1.00

00:41:38.000 Do you know why?

00:41:38.000 They have a lot of, the percentage of it, it's like something that's 70% of their acreage is controlled by the federal government, that's why.

00:41:45.000 Plus Mormons. 0.99

00:41:48.000 Let me, I'll take the first point, you take the second point.

00:41:50.000 Okay, go ahead.

00:41:52.000 So, Senator Mike Lee comes out and says, right, this is like the perfect way to spin this type of thing.

00:42:00.000 He calls back to, and Senator Orrin Hatch from Utah has also done this, he calls back to the Sagebrush Rebellion and things like that, saying that wilderness is akin to the European aristocracy.

00:42:16.000 Because only a certain few can go there.

00:42:18.000 Because you have to have two working legs that can get you up into wilderness.

00:42:24.000 Part of the basis of a speech he gave, and he's given it several times, is that public land and wilderness specifically...

00:42:37.000 Yeah.

00:42:47.000 And they're still for you.

00:42:48.000 He's right in a certain way.

00:42:50.000 What he's right in is that if you put roads through, anybody could go through anytime they wanted.

00:42:55.000 On a car, if they had no legs, if they can barely walk, if they are in a wheelchair normally but they can drive a car, yeah, they can go in deep into the woods and they can enjoy all of the wilderness that has stopped.

00:43:07.000 That is true.

00:43:08.000 That's true.

00:43:11.000 It's not like there's a lot of places that they can't also go to.

00:43:15.000 They can go to a lot of places where they can do that.

00:43:17.000 You can go to Yellowstone. 0.95

00:43:18.000 Yellowstone's damn gorgeous. 0.72

00:43:20.000 You just drive through that and you see all the trees and the animals. 0.97

00:43:23.000 Yellowstone is a wonderful proxy for going outside.

00:43:25.000 Yeah.

00:43:25.000 It's an introduction to what it is without really being in it.

00:43:28.000 Yeah, it's like a zoo that's free range.

00:43:31.000 Yeah, it's exactly what it is.

00:43:33.000 I live an hour from there and I've taken my family there and it just feels like I used to feel like, oh man, this is an illicit place.

00:43:40.000 As somebody who's gone into the wilderness and tackled these big challenges and hiked around in crazy places, this Yellowstone is like, nah, it makes me feel uncomfortable.

00:43:49.000 Then somebody said to me, I feel like it was this guy named Cody Rich who has a podcast called The Rich Outdoors.

00:43:55.000 He said to me, It's like it's an ambassador for real wilderness.

00:44:00.000 It's like a way to present to people that this thing exists without them having to actually strap on a pack, get some trekking poles, and hike miles up into the wilderness.

00:44:10.000 This is part of the problem.

00:44:12.000 Whenever you're talking about the wilderness, so few people go to it.

00:44:17.000 It's like if we were talking about the surface of Mars with the people that create the rover.

00:44:22.000 Well, you know how the surface of Mars is.

00:44:23.000 It gums up the wheels.

00:44:25.000 It's red.

00:44:25.000 It's definitely red.

00:44:26.000 How many people are going to Mars?

00:44:28.000 How many people are really going to the wilderness?

00:44:30.000 Yeah.

00:44:31.000 Not that many.

00:44:32.000 There's more people going to the wilderness than Mars.

00:44:35.000 But I've always said, like, the public lands movement, and I am definitely part of it.

00:44:41.000 I feel like I could probably represent the monuments things better.

00:44:43.000 But, like, I'm definitely part of it.

00:44:46.000 It's scary in a lot of ways.

00:44:48.000 Because people can say, like, keep it public, man.

00:44:50.000 Keep it public.

00:44:50.000 That's like apple pie and bald eagles and freedom.

00:44:54.000 Yeah.

00:44:54.000 It's an idea that we all pay into a thing, we all own, and anybody can go there.

00:44:59.000 It's super easy to get on that train.

00:45:02.000 It is real easy to get on that train and lose your critical thought around what is the idea of wilderness.

00:45:08.000 I mean, because when I think of my hunting now, like we first went hunting like five or six years ago, you would ask me this question, I would have given you a whole different answer.

00:45:16.000 What would you have said then?

00:45:18.000 I don't know what I would have said then, but not this answer.

00:45:20.000 I might have said like...

00:45:21.000 Well, you're a fairly youngish man.

00:45:22.000 I'm only...

00:45:23.000 You're growing.

00:45:24.000 I'm growing.

00:45:24.000 31?

00:45:25.000 33. Oh, you beautiful person.

00:45:27.000 Look at you.

00:45:28.000 I love you too.

00:45:28.000 Perfect complexion.

00:45:30.000 Look at you.

00:45:30.000 All your cells are firing correctly.

00:45:33.000 No liver spots yet.

00:45:34.000 This whiskey's really good stuff.

00:45:36.000 I'm Irish.

00:45:37.000 Um...

00:45:38.000 So what do you think you would have called it then?

00:45:41.000 So what I probably would have said like when we first went hunting in BC together for moose, what I probably would have said would have been around, it would have been less value based and more like I do it because my dad did it.

00:45:53.000 I do it because it connects me to my dad, like my dad, my family, my people.

00:45:59.000 I do it because humanity did it.

00:46:00.000 We filmed a video, remember, sitting on a thing.

00:46:02.000 We talked a lot about our humanity, right?

00:46:05.000 Like the drawing back through the history of time when the hunter was exalted in a tribe of people.

00:46:13.000 Well, it was the only way to get meat.

00:46:14.000 It was the only way to get meat.

00:46:15.000 So your skills that you acquired as a hunter made you important to the culture, the society, the everyday life.

00:46:23.000 I would have probably called back to that.

00:46:25.000 Not that I would say that's wrong now, but what I've come to find out over some other years of hunting in a lot of places is that I think my hunting is more about healthy ecosystems now than it is about anything else.

00:46:38.000 I think all of my efforts should be around clean water, clean air, places that we can go and explore.

00:46:48.000 And what that brings to our world, that brings more wildlife, that brings places for my son to go and experience these things.

00:46:55.000 And so I've changed over this very short time and the way that I do it.

00:47:00.000 Well, the more you experience the wilderness and then go back to the city and then go back to the wilderness, the more you realize how special it is out there.

00:47:07.000 And the more you realize when...

00:47:08.000 Like today, I went flying in a helicopter over L.A. with my good friend Bill Burr.

00:47:15.000 And as he was taking me up, I was looking at all this development.

00:47:18.000 We were talking about all these apartment complexes that are being developed.

00:47:21.000 And he's like, yeah.

00:47:22.000 He goes, you really see it when you're up here in the air.

00:47:24.000 Because you see where there was nothing.

00:47:26.000 And then a couple weeks later, it'll be flattened out.

00:47:28.000 Yeah.

00:47:29.000 And then a couple weeks later, they start construction, and you realize, like, oh, this is how it spreads.

00:47:32.000 And that this is just something that people do.

00:47:35.000 And if you don't put a line, you don't draw a line, we're going to keep going.

00:47:39.000 We're going to make our way across the country.

00:47:41.000 And I've heard that argument from people that don't go to the wilderness.

00:47:44.000 Like, look how much of the United...

00:47:45.000 We don't overpopulate it.

00:47:47.000 Look how much of the United States has no one living in it.

00:47:50.000 Fly over and look down at all the places that don't have cities and don't have roads and don't have houses.

00:47:55.000 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:56.000 For now... 0.99

00:47:57.000 Do you know that none of this shit was here 200 years ago? 1.00

00:48:00.000 That's nothing! 0.99

00:48:01.000 Well, we plowed ground to plant the corn so you could have the things you have.

00:48:06.000 Well, fly over in 1819. Yeah.

00:48:09.000 You know?

00:48:09.000 Fly over 100, 200 years ago.

00:48:11.000 Bitch, there was nothing here. 1.00

00:48:13.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:48:13.000 There was zero here. 1.00

00:48:14.000 Fly around with Wilbur Wright and Orville.

00:48:16.000 Come on, man.

00:48:16.000 Let's see what you saw.

00:48:17.000 If you could just go 300 years, you have nothing.

00:48:19.000 You have zero things.

00:48:21.000 Yeah.

00:48:21.000 Well, I think there's some perspective, and I think honey has a lot going for it around the fact that as urbanization happens, you know, as jobs, even for me, like as jobs become more prevalent in urban places and people have to travel from wherever they're growing up to these urban places and live so removed from wilderness,

00:48:40.000 so removed from sustainability, I think...

00:48:44.000 For a long time, because hunting peaked in 1982. There was like 17.5 million hunters around that year.

00:48:51.000 Was that because of Ronald Reagan?

00:48:52.000 Yeah.

00:48:53.000 He was president.

00:48:55.000 Reagan was president in 1982, wasn't he? 1.00

00:48:56.000 Listen, I wasn't even alive, so let's not get into that shit, dude. 0.99

00:49:01.000 I don't know. 0.98

00:49:03.000 But like post-World War II, there was a rise in the modern hunter, modern sport hunter, however you could describe it.

00:49:09.000 There's this rise in 1982 and then a precipitous fall, right?

00:49:13.000 From there until 2016, there's around 11 million hunters in this country.

00:49:18.000 It's a big drop.

00:49:20.000 It's a big drop.

00:49:20.000 And I will always say that, like, the three things that I think happened were urbanization, so people are getting removed from, they're getting moved away from having hunting in their lives on a daily basis, right?

00:49:40.000 Sure.

00:49:42.000 Sure.

00:49:54.000 Not just Bambi, but essentially all cartoons involving animals.

00:49:57.000 The animals were your friends.

00:49:59.000 Yes.

00:49:59.000 Even predators.

00:50:00.000 Yes.

00:50:00.000 Like Yogi was your friend.

00:50:02.000 He was your friend.

00:50:02.000 He wore a tie.

00:50:03.000 He was a bear attack.

00:50:05.000 He was a gentleman.

00:50:06.000 He had a hat on.

00:50:06.000 Yeah.

00:50:07.000 He had a picnic basket, he thinks.

00:50:09.000 He wanted your picnic basket.

00:50:10.000 Jamie, look up.

00:50:10.000 There was a guy.

00:50:11.000 There was a dude recently who was caught poaching in Missouri, and the judge said that he had to watch Bambi once a month during his entire sentence.

00:50:23.000 What?

00:50:23.000 See if you can find that.

00:50:24.000 That is real.

00:50:25.000 That just needs a reality show. 1.00

00:50:27.000 He's like, I know what to do, honey.

00:50:28.000 I know what to do.

00:50:29.000 We'll make him watch Bambi. 0.85

00:50:30.000 He poached a deer.

00:50:31.000 This is a guy who's like the whole, there was like a whole family, guys, who were in like a poaching ring or something.

00:50:36.000 I read this on the way over here.

00:50:38.000 Here it is.

00:50:40.000 Deer poacher sentenced to watch Bambi every month during a year in Missouri jail.

00:50:44.000 Yeah, this might be a judge that's looking for a little publicity.

00:50:47.000 Found it illegally killed hundreds of deer.

00:50:49.000 Sometimes taking over their heads and leaving the rest to rotten fields.

00:50:52.000 How about you keep that guy in jail for more than a year?

00:50:56.000 There he is.

00:50:56.000 Look at him.

00:50:57.000 David Barry Jr. Look at him. 1.00

00:51:00.000 Fucking dork. 1.00

00:51:01.000 Has been ordered to watch... 1.00

00:51:03.000 Here's one thing, man.

00:51:03.000 If that guy was killing him because he was poor and he was just eating deer and that's how he made his...

00:51:08.000 That's how he got food...

00:51:10.000 That's not the case here.

00:51:11.000 I don't care.

00:51:11.000 He chopped the heads off and just took the heads.

00:51:13.000 Fuck that guy. 1.00

00:51:14.000 Just fuck anybody who does that anyway. 1.00

00:51:16.000 Fuck anybody who just wants to shoot something as damn delicious and massive as a deer. 1.00

00:51:21.000 A deer could feed a family for months. 1.00

00:51:24.000 Do you understand that?

00:51:25.000 Of course it could.

00:51:26.000 You understand that, but I mean, the people listening... 1.00

00:51:28.000 Or this asshole... 1.00

00:51:29.000 Do you understand that? 1.00

00:51:29.000 This asshole who shot this fucking thing? 1.00

00:51:31.000 You cut his head off, you piece of shit? 1.00

00:51:34.000 I fucking look forward to eating deer, and you shot it, and you... 1.00

00:51:39.000 Anyway, Walt Disney, I think that kind of treatment of animals has been something that's hurt hunting. 0.99

00:51:47.000 And the third one is hunters have hurt themselves.

00:51:50.000 Like that guy.

00:51:51.000 That's a poacher, not a hunter. 0.94

00:51:52.000 That guy's way worse.

00:51:53.000 That's a poacher, not a hunter, though.

00:51:55.000 But he's a guy who's hunting illegally.

00:51:56.000 That's what poaching is. 0.99

00:51:57.000 He's a hunter.

00:51:58.000 Yeah, but like camping illegally is trespassing.

00:52:01.000 It's not the same thing.

00:52:02.000 Yeah, but you're camping.

00:52:03.000 You're trespassing and camping.

00:52:05.000 You're still camping.

00:52:06.000 Maybe.

00:52:06.000 Listen, I know you don't want to call him a hunter like someone who goes on stage at a company picnic is not a comedian.

00:52:14.000 Yes.

00:52:14.000 It's the same thing.

00:52:15.000 I get it.

00:52:16.000 He's a hunter, though.

00:52:17.000 He's still killing animals, yeah.

00:52:18.000 He's killed more than me.

00:52:20.000 That's a hundred.

00:52:20.000 Yeah, I'm a hunter, and he's killed more than me, so he's a hunter.

00:52:23.000 That's true. 1.00

00:52:24.000 He's a piece of shit. 1.00

00:52:25.000 He is. 1.00

00:52:25.000 But that's just like everything else, man. 1.00

00:52:27.000 There's people that are good Uber drivers, and there's some that'll try to pull you under a bridge and fuck your mouth. 1.00

00:52:33.000 It's bad people out there. 1.00

00:52:34.000 That's a good point to bring up.

00:52:35.000 I always bring up with hunting, it's like, oh, somebody killed a giraffe, or a guy killed a family of baboons and did a photo.

00:52:45.000 I saw that.

00:52:46.000 Do you see that?

00:52:47.000 Not good.

00:52:48.000 Not good. 1.00

00:52:48.000 Wow, it's a fucking primate, bro. 1.00

00:52:51.000 Yeah, there's nothing good about that. 1.00

00:52:53.000 It's never going to go well for you.

00:52:55.000 It's never going to go well for you.

00:52:56.000 Did he put it online?

00:52:58.000 No, he didn't put it online to his, I guess, the credit that we give the guy.

00:53:01.000 Who put it online?

00:53:03.000 The Idaho Statesman or whatever the Idaho local paper was.

00:53:06.000 How did they get the pictures?

00:53:07.000 I don't know.

00:53:08.000 Probably from one of the folks.

00:53:09.000 He sent a mass email out to some friends and colleagues and things of, like, recapping his hunt in Africa.

00:53:15.000 Like, here's all the things I did.

00:53:17.000 And he, I think, from my reading on the guy, and I got a lot of mutual friends with him, say he's a good guy. 0.61

00:53:24.000 Like, he just screwed up.

00:53:25.000 Made a bad choice here.

00:53:28.000 That's a tough sell.

00:53:29.000 I would say so, too. 0.80

00:53:30.000 Yeah, they should put him in a cell and make him watch some monkey movies.

00:53:34.000 Yeah, I think he knew.

00:53:34.000 Like, if I put this on...

00:53:37.000 You've got to watch Game Con every month for a year.

00:53:42.000 Planet of the Apes, you've got to watch.

00:53:43.000 The Mark Wahlberg Planet of the Apes.

00:53:45.000 The reality of baboons, and I've studied the work of Robert Sapolsky, who's a guy who's been on the podcast before, and it's really pretty amazing stuff.

00:53:56.000 What they found out about baboons that he studied, actually, because he actually studied a baboon tribe that the alpha males died off.

00:54:04.000 They were all eating out of a poisoned garbage patch.

00:54:07.000 There was a garbage patch that had sick food in it, just bad food, and the alpha males who got to eat first always chased everybody out.

00:54:17.000 They wound up dying off, and for more than one generation, I think it was several generations, They became really peaceful and calm, and they weren't the vicious, violent baboons that are the norm. 0.96

00:54:30.000 If you Google it, Sapolsky studies baboons, and Radiolab also had a podcast about it, which is where I first heard about it, and then I read what Sapolsky wrote about it.

00:54:42.000 But it is unbelievably fascinating. 0.91

00:54:44.000 It shows how you can have this insane, violent animal culture, and then the cunts get removed. 1.00

00:54:53.000 And when the cunts get removed, everybody chills the fuck out. 0.99

00:54:56.000 It's really, really quite fascinating. 1.00

00:54:58.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:54:59.000 But baboons, for the most part, I mean, maybe he shot the nicest baboons ever, but for the most part, they're a bunch of baby-eating cunts, and they'll steal your fucking kid. 1.00

00:55:07.000 That little two-year-old that you love so dearly, that little motherfucker would be on a porch somewhere, and if there's baboons around, they'll snatch him and eat his head. 1.00

00:55:14.000 Well, that's like, when I was in Africa, I hunted Africa one time in my life, and... 0.99

00:55:18.000 Our PH and our guide both said...

00:55:21.000 A PH is a professional hunter.

00:55:23.000 The structure is like there's a professional hunter, which is essentially your guide, and then there's trackers, which are usually native folks that help track in the game, spotting the animals, things like that.

00:55:32.000 But our PH... He was like, if you see a baboon, shoot it.

00:55:35.000 He's like, we have lots of irrigation here to maintain this ranch, and they rip it up, and they're basically terrorists around coming around our camp, messing with our fires, messing with our food. 0.99

00:55:47.000 He was like, if you see one, shoot one.

00:55:48.000 And that was the instruction that I got.

00:55:51.000 And I never did, but, you know, given that instruction from somebody like that, like, hey, this is a good thing for our landscape.

00:55:58.000 Go and do it.

00:55:59.000 Now, that's very far removed from stacking them up.

00:56:02.000 Yeah, very far.

00:56:04.000 And with a big smile on your face holding a bow.

00:56:09.000 Didn't he shoot a baby?

00:56:10.000 There's some babies.

00:56:11.000 Like a whole family.

00:56:13.000 They don't stay in one place either.

00:56:15.000 If I would have came to you and I said, listen Joe, here's my plan.

00:56:18.000 What I'm going to do is go to Africa and hunt. 1.00

00:56:21.000 And then... 0.99

00:56:23.000 You know, like, I'm gonna shoot some baboons. 1.00

00:56:24.000 I mean, it's a good thing for this. 0.99

00:56:26.000 I'd be like, don't tell anybody.

00:56:27.000 Yeah, you'd be like, don't.

00:56:28.000 Certainly don't take a photo of you posing with an entire family of deceased primates.

00:56:33.000 I had a friend who was in Africa, and he got attacked by a baboon.

00:56:36.000 A baboon tried to steal his food.

00:56:38.000 Yeah.

00:56:39.000 I forget what the context of it was.

00:56:41.000 It was quite a few years ago, but he said it was spooky.

00:56:45.000 He said they don't seem like a monkey and they don't seem like a dog monkey.

00:56:51.000 Like a wild...

00:56:53.000 You ever see when they open their mouth?

00:56:54.000 Yes.

00:56:55.000 It's like a dog mouth. 0.64

00:56:58.000 It's like a dog monkey. 1.00

00:56:59.000 It's like a dog fucked a monkey. 1.00

00:57:02.000 Show a baboon. 1.00

00:57:03.000 Let me see a baboon with its mouth open.

00:57:05.000 Never thought of it that way, but I'll give it to you.

00:57:07.000 But they have a long, stretched out mouth like a wolf or something.

00:57:10.000 It's like a werewolf.

00:57:11.000 Yeah.

00:57:12.000 It's not like a regular person.

00:57:14.000 They're real weird, man.

00:57:15.000 They have all these characteristics that are of primates, but then they have this extra weirdness to them.

00:57:22.000 Yeah, and this wildness to them, too.

00:57:23.000 But doesn't that come down to the core of some of these...

00:57:26.000 Oh, my God.

00:57:27.000 I mean, come on.

00:57:27.000 Look at that.

00:57:28.000 That's like a werewolf.

00:57:29.000 Yeah.

00:57:29.000 That is a werewolf.

00:57:31.000 That's like part...

00:57:33.000 Look at that face.

00:57:34.000 That lion and that baboon.

00:57:35.000 Look at those canines that roll back. 0.93

00:57:37.000 But look at even the shape of the jaw.

00:57:40.000 It's very dog-like.

00:57:41.000 It's very elongated and dog-like.

00:57:45.000 It's a very strange animal.

00:57:48.000 Look at that face, man. 0.98

00:57:49.000 That is a crazy beast. 0.97

00:57:51.000 And my friend said, I forget the story.

00:57:55.000 It was quite a long time ago.

00:57:56.000 But he stole some food and snarled at him and snatched something from him.

00:58:01.000 But he said it was very scary.

00:58:03.000 He said, and you know, it wasn't even that big.

00:58:05.000 It wasn't like 60, 70 pounds or something like that.

00:58:08.000 He said, but it's big. 1.00

00:58:09.000 They'll fuck you up. 1.00

00:58:10.000 They're not. 1.00

00:58:10.000 Of course they will. 1.00

00:58:11.000 You know.

00:58:12.000 It's different if you're living around them.

00:58:14.000 It's just, these things are different. 0.95

00:58:15.000 Like we, we were talking about around the old meat eater incorporated offices the other day around how do you, how do we as hunters who are around these animals all the time and shit, how do we, and something happens, somebody gets mad about this guy killing all these, these baboons. 0.76

00:58:30.000 What do we say? 0.92

00:58:31.000 When there's a hunting scandal, what do I say?

00:58:34.000 Of course I let it go.

00:58:35.000 Well, most people don't even know about it.

00:58:37.000 It hit the hunting world.

00:58:39.000 But that one was on NBC, CNN. This one went pretty big.

00:58:45.000 Invariably, these things happen where...

00:58:48.000 How come that didn't go as big as Cecil?

00:58:50.000 Stop and think about that. 0.99

00:58:51.000 Because to me, it's more kind of fucked up. 0.99

00:58:54.000 It's more egregious than... 0.99

00:58:55.000 The Cecil thing, it's a normal thing.

00:58:58.000 But I just think we're desensitized to it.

00:59:00.000 Right.

00:59:00.000 Cecil came at a time where there was more sensitivity to it.

00:59:04.000 And it just hit a news cycle.

00:59:06.000 The Trump news cycle probably dominates any other thing that happens in the news.

00:59:11.000 It doesn't get the time.

00:59:13.000 The reason why I say that Cecil's normal, I don't think that it's good.

00:59:15.000 I don't think you should... 0.97

00:59:17.000 Just go over there and shoot lions. 0.82

00:59:19.000 But people have been doing it forever.

00:59:22.000 Like, if you ask me how many people go over there to hunt baboons, I'd be like, do they really? 0.83

00:59:26.000 Is that like a normal thing?

00:59:28.000 Like, it doesn't seem normal, right?

00:59:30.000 Like, even though I don't...

00:59:31.000 I mean, I've had this conversation many times on this podcast.

00:59:34.000 I don't think you should shoot things that you don't eat unless there's a need in terms of, like, some sort of an imbalance.

00:59:41.000 Like, just as a joke...

00:59:44.000 Imagine if eagles were like rats.

00:59:47.000 Yeah.

00:59:48.000 They were everywhere. 0.95

00:59:49.000 There's a reason why you could just kill rats. 0.97

00:59:51.000 It's because you have to. 0.99

00:59:52.000 Yes.

00:59:53.000 Okay, this is what overpopulation looks like. 1.00

00:59:55.000 You put a trap in your fucking garage and you smash the head of this living creature and you're happy. 1.00

01:00:01.000 Almost all things are categorized as rodents who you would do that to. 1.00

01:00:04.000 Yes.

01:00:04.000 Well, not true.

01:00:05.000 Really, right?

01:00:06.000 Like, squirrels are cute.

01:00:07.000 They're adorable.

01:00:08.000 Yeah, but they just don't get in your house. 0.54

01:00:10.000 But if there was half a dozen squirrels in your garage and you could set traps and get them out of there, you would.

01:00:15.000 But it's a different thing.

01:00:16.000 Like, you'd feel bad if you stomped one.

01:00:18.000 Probably. 0.91

01:00:19.000 You'd stomp a rat. 1.00

01:00:20.000 You saw a rat in your kid's room, you'd fucking stomp that thing to death. 1.00

01:00:25.000 Twice. 1.00

01:00:26.000 Right?

01:00:26.000 If you saw a squirrel in your kids, you were trying to throw a blanket over it.

01:00:28.000 So why do we put those types of value...

01:00:30.000 Why do we apply those value systems to animals like that?

01:00:33.000 Because they're overpopulated.

01:00:34.000 And because traditionally, there have been carriers of plague.

01:00:38.000 Yeah.

01:00:38.000 Well, the real story about the Black Plague is not just that the rats were carrying it, but in fact that the ticks and the...

01:00:45.000 Was it...

01:00:46.000 Ticks or fleas that were on the rats were carrying the black plague.

01:00:52.000 I want to say it's fleas.

01:00:53.000 Could be.

01:00:53.000 And that this is how the bubonic plague got spread.

01:00:56.000 It got spread actually, in fact, through the ticks that were carried by the rats.

01:00:59.000 Is that what it is?

01:01:00.000 Fleas?

01:01:00.000 Fleas.

01:01:02.000 Thank you, Jamie, with Google search.

01:01:03.000 The difference is that squirrels are not overpopulated and that raptors are killing them off left and right.

01:01:10.000 It's a primary source of food for a lot of these flying raptors.

01:01:14.000 Eagles and hawks and stuff like that.

01:01:18.000 Of course.

01:01:38.000 This is great.

01:01:39.000 But we treat all types of animals very differently, right?

01:01:42.000 And we apply our own specific feelings about these animals to them.

01:01:47.000 Like, the bear with a name doesn't know that it has a name.

01:01:50.000 Right.

01:01:54.000 It's not aware that we've applied this special meaning to it.

01:01:58.000 It doesn't know that.

01:02:01.000 Our application of our feelings and our engendering doesn't change the nature of the wolf or the bear.

01:02:08.000 It will rip your face off.

01:02:10.000 It will kill as many elk as it can. 0.78

01:02:12.000 Well, there's a real problem in depicting them.

01:02:15.000 The anthropomorphization of animals depicts them as your friends, and that's a hard thing to shake.

01:02:20.000 It's not that they're bad.

01:02:22.000 And this is where the real problem with someone going around shooting baboons and posing like he did a great thing is. 0.78

01:02:28.000 It's not that these animals are bad.

01:02:30.000 They should be respected and understood and appreciated.

01:02:32.000 Now, if you are a part of a baboon clean-up crew... 0.95

01:02:36.000 I was listening to Ranella's podcast today.

01:02:41.000 Yeah.

01:02:44.000 Yeah.

01:03:00.000 Thousands of kangaroos.

01:03:02.000 And that they have to do this because they don't have any natural predators and they'll just devastate landscapes. 0.62

01:03:07.000 And we've played videos.

01:03:09.000 Let's see if we can find one real quick.

01:03:10.000 If we play, we get kicked off of YouTube?

01:03:13.000 Probably, right?

01:03:14.000 There's a video of like a swarm of kangaroos in Australia.

01:03:18.000 Dude, I had no idea.

01:03:19.000 We were reading about it, about the overpopulation.

01:03:22.000 I had no idea.

01:03:23.000 It's like 100 pound locust.

01:03:25.000 That's what it's like.

01:03:26.000 I was reading, I can't remember the guy's name, but I was reading this paper.

01:03:29.000 Hold up just so I can see it.

01:03:30.000 I was reading.

01:03:31.000 Don't put it up on the YouTube.

01:03:33.000 I don't want the kids to get mad.

01:03:34.000 Oh, there it is.

01:03:34.000 This is nothing.

01:03:35.000 This ain't shit in comparison. 0.99

01:03:38.000 Are those kangaroos? 1.00

01:03:39.000 Yeah, these are all kangaroos.

01:03:40.000 This is pretty crazy, but we were watching one when there was a swarm running across a field.

01:03:46.000 Like, look at that, bro.

01:03:47.000 That's rats.

01:03:48.000 Come on, man. 1.00

01:03:48.000 If you saw that many rats in a field, you would go, I am going to go get my gun, and I'm going to kill these fucking rats. 1.00

01:03:55.000 Right? 1.00

01:03:56.000 You wouldn't tolerate that, but these are cute.

01:03:58.000 Is our, like, the endangered species has come into play here in a weird way, because is our caring for animals dictated by the number of the animal that there is?

01:04:06.000 It isn't, and it is.

01:04:08.000 See, it's not for us, right?

01:04:09.000 We're over here in the valley of Southern California.

01:04:14.000 Very nice.

01:04:14.000 Sipping rye brains, having a good old time.

01:04:16.000 Me, buddy, Ben O'Brien, young Jamie.

01:04:18.000 We're wonderful.

01:04:19.000 It's air conditioned.

01:04:20.000 It's fantastic.

01:04:21.000 Very nice.

01:04:22.000 We live a good life here. 1.00

01:04:23.000 If you're in Australia, you're killing those fucking things. 1.00

01:04:25.000 Oh, let me tell you, like, when I went, Remy Warren, our mutual friend, first took me to New Zealand. 1.00

01:04:31.000 He took me to a sheep station.

01:04:33.000 A giant, this is basically a ranch.

01:04:34.000 A big sheep ranch.

01:04:36.000 We hunted fallow deer there.

01:04:37.000 There were deer everywhere.

01:04:40.000 On the way out, we met a guy, and we called him the Rabbit Man. 0.64

01:04:44.000 He looked like a superhero.

01:04:46.000 He was riding on just a two-stroke bike with rabbit hide covers for the handles.

01:04:51.000 He had a helmet on.

01:04:53.000 He looked like a superhero, like a leather jacket and a.22.

01:04:57.000 He was riding around.

01:04:58.000 His job was to ride around and shoot rabbits all night long every day, seven days a week.

01:05:03.000 He had killed millions of rabbits.

01:05:05.000 Millions.

01:05:06.000 Millions.

01:05:06.000 And he would log, every night come back and log the number of rabbits he killed.

01:05:11.000 They weren't eating these rabbits.

01:05:12.000 It was population control.

01:05:14.000 These rabbits were digging under fences.

01:05:17.000 These rabbits were destroying the landscape.

01:05:19.000 They couldn't run sheep.

01:05:20.000 The land was invaluable because these rabbits were...

01:05:23.000 It's almost like turn of the century America.

01:05:26.000 We had some of the same situations.

01:05:28.000 But we met this guy whose job it was to, with impunity, kill as many rabbits as he possibly could.

01:05:35.000 Are rabbits an invasive species?

01:05:37.000 No.

01:05:37.000 Down there they might be.

01:05:39.000 Well, find out because...

01:05:41.000 This was New Zealand and most... 0.96

01:05:42.000 Almost everything.

01:05:43.000 Almost everything is non-native.

01:05:45.000 That is a crazy spot.

01:05:47.000 Yeah.

01:05:48.000 That's one of my favorite spots.

01:05:49.000 I could be on the board for tourism for New Zealand.

01:05:52.000 Really?

01:05:52.000 I love that place.

01:05:53.000 European rabbits were introduced to Australia in the 18th century.

01:05:55.000 Okay, but what about New Zealand?

01:05:56.000 Yeah, what about New Zealand?

01:05:58.000 Jamie, not paying attention.

01:06:00.000 It's right next to it, I think.

01:06:02.000 It's right next to it.

01:06:04.000 They can't swim, bro.

01:06:06.000 Rabbits don't swim.

01:06:07.000 But I bet it's the same thing, right?

01:06:08.000 It's the same thing, I'm sure.

01:06:10.000 We never did get so deep into...

01:06:12.000 Yep, invasive species.

01:06:13.000 A number introduced.

01:06:14.000 Yep, European rabbit.

01:06:16.000 Yeah, I think everything in New Zealand was introduced.

01:06:21.000 Yes, most of them. 0.99

01:06:22.000 Sorry, New Zealand really needs to kill these adorable rabbits. 1.00

01:06:25.000 Yeah, they have to. 0.98

01:06:26.000 By the way, you can eat them. 0.98

01:06:28.000 They're fucking delicious. 0.99

01:06:29.000 Rabbits are delicious. 1.00

01:06:30.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:06:30.000 I mean, but the problem is, my daughter has a fucking pet rabbit, okay? 0.99

01:06:34.000 And we put it in this little cute cage, and when it wants to come out and be held, it puts its little paws on it. 0.99

01:06:41.000 It makes noise.

01:06:42.000 You open the cage up, take the rabbit out.

01:06:46.000 Ooh, delicious. 1.00

01:06:47.000 You can't go out and fuck. 1.00

01:06:48.000 I love hunting rabbits, man. 1.00

01:06:50.000 They're delicious.

01:06:51.000 But I was reading this environmental...

01:06:53.000 I was like a theorist.

01:06:55.000 This guy was talking about the types of hunting.

01:06:57.000 And I was reading this.

01:06:58.000 I'm like, this is not...

01:06:59.000 This might be a smart guy, but he don't have it.

01:07:01.000 He was talking about...

01:07:03.000 Three types of hunting.

01:07:05.000 Therapeutic.

01:07:05.000 What is that, Jamie?

01:07:07.000 I don't know.

01:07:07.000 It was in that pic with the rabbits.

01:07:09.000 It said stoats.

01:07:10.000 Stoats?

01:07:10.000 I've never heard of it.

01:07:11.000 It's eating a nested bird.

01:07:13.000 Probably another...

01:07:14.000 They look cute, but...

01:07:15.000 Well, you know, that's one of the things that also I learned about from the Meat Eater podcast is how many squirrels kill birds.

01:07:24.000 Oh, yeah.

01:07:25.000 They kill and eat birds.

01:07:26.000 Like, that's a big part of the decimation of the population of certain bird species is attributed to squirrels.

01:07:33.000 I'm interested in this.

01:07:34.000 Look at it. 1.00

01:07:35.000 He eats fucking mice. 1.00

01:07:36.000 He's a murderer. 1.00

01:07:37.000 It's a little fucking badass. 1.00

01:07:38.000 That's crazy. 1.00

01:07:39.000 That little thing eat a mouse that's about, well, it's a rat. 1.00

01:07:42.000 It's eating a rat that's like his size.

01:07:44.000 Is this something on New Zealand?

01:07:46.000 I think, I believe so. 0.94

01:07:48.000 It's a little New Zealand murderer. 1.00

01:07:49.000 The only thing I've run into that was native to New Zealand was a Kia.

01:07:52.000 It was like a parrot that flies around.

01:07:53.000 Was the thylacine native to New Zealand or just Australia?

01:07:57.000 That's Australia, right?

01:07:59.000 That's the Tasmanian tiger?

01:08:00.000 He's also known as a short-tailed weasel.

01:08:02.000 Look at that.

01:08:03.000 He's nine ounces.

01:08:04.000 North America.

01:08:05.000 What?

01:08:05.000 North America?

01:08:06.000 Is that little fuckers out here? 1.00

01:08:08.000 He's like Merck and the genius and stuff. 1.00

01:08:10.000 Oh, okay.

01:08:11.000 He got over here.

01:08:13.000 Distinguished by...

01:08:14.000 Oh, he's a weasel.

01:08:16.000 He looks like a weasel.

01:08:17.000 Larger size and longer tail with a prominent black tip.

01:08:20.000 It's kind of weasel.

01:08:21.000 Terrific level.

01:08:22.000 Carnivorous. 1.00

01:08:23.000 Isn't it funny that weasels are thought to be like little bitches? 1.00

01:08:25.000 Ah, you little weasel. 0.99

01:08:26.000 Weasels are badass.

01:08:28.000 Look at this weasel.

01:08:28.000 There he goes.

01:08:29.000 Look at him.

01:08:29.000 Yeah.

01:08:30.000 And weasels will fuck up a cobra. 1.00

01:08:32.000 How about that? 0.99

01:08:33.000 Look at him.

01:08:34.000 What is he doing there?

01:08:35.000 He kills rabbit.

01:08:37.000 That's how he's killing?

01:08:38.000 Look at it.

01:08:38.000 Stote kills rabbit ten times its size.

01:08:40.000 Jesus Christ.

01:08:41.000 Two million views.

01:08:44.000 There it is.

01:08:45.000 Oh, there it is.

01:08:46.000 Look how small he is, and he's chasing a rabbit.

01:08:48.000 That's insane. 1.00

01:08:50.000 What a little ruthless motherfucker. 1.00

01:08:52.000 Yeah, don't show it, but we'll talk it through. 1.00

01:08:54.000 But it seems very cute.

01:08:55.000 Should we do the play-by-play on this show?

01:08:57.000 Life's stout.

01:08:58.000 Oh, life.

01:08:59.000 Stout kills rabbit ten times the size.

01:09:01.000 Would you get stout or stout?

01:09:02.000 BBC One.

01:09:03.000 I don't know.

01:09:04.000 Is it stout or stout?

01:09:05.000 I don't know.

01:09:05.000 I'd run into this critter.

01:09:06.000 I'm outside. 1.00

01:09:07.000 Look at this little motherfucker. 1.00

01:09:08.000 Look at him go. 1.00

01:09:09.000 He really is ten times the size.

01:09:10.000 He's very adorable.

01:09:12.000 He's kind of adorable, though, the way that he's doing it. 1.00

01:09:14.000 What a ruthless little cunt. 1.00

01:09:15.000 What's he going to do? 1.00

01:09:15.000 Is he going to go for the hindquarters like a wolf? 1.00

01:09:18.000 The other rabbit tried to stop him.

01:09:20.000 That's like Captain Savajo over there.

01:09:22.000 Look at this one.

01:09:23.000 Let some pass by.

01:09:25.000 Oh, he's going low.

01:09:25.000 How about the other rabbit just sits there while his friends gets jacked?

01:09:28.000 There's dozens of rabbits that aren't.

01:09:30.000 Let's gang up and get this stoat, man.

01:09:32.000 How crazy is he doesn't try the rabbits that are really close to him?

01:09:36.000 Oh, now he goes.

01:09:37.000 Where's he going?

01:09:38.000 Is he going like...

01:09:39.000 So he's probably going to hit those hindquarters.

01:09:42.000 He's going to get some shock and some blood loss.

01:09:44.000 Look at this.

01:09:44.000 He's going to get the neck.

01:09:45.000 Yeah.

01:09:46.000 No, he's going for that.

01:09:46.000 Oh, he's going.

01:09:48.000 He's going to pull him down with the legs.

01:09:49.000 You get blood loss. 0.64

01:09:50.000 No, he's going.

01:09:51.000 Oh, Joe Rogan.

01:09:52.000 He's going up.

01:09:53.000 Oh, Joe Rogan.

01:09:54.000 Oh, my God.

01:09:55.000 He's going deep.

01:09:56.000 Look at the other rabbit.

01:09:58.000 He's like, what's going on?

01:09:59.000 He's like, this doesn't seem right. 1.00

01:10:00.000 The other rabbit's just going to look away, you pussy. 1.00

01:10:02.000 We're not friends. 1.00

01:10:03.000 Not even help your friend. 0.99

01:10:04.000 What a little monster. 1.00

01:10:06.000 That is so crazy. 0.92

01:10:08.000 He's deep.

01:10:08.000 He's deep on it.

01:10:09.000 That is so crazy.

01:10:10.000 So he's got his teeth, for those, I don't know who's watching, but he's got his teeth, like, behind the ears of this rabbit. 0.80

01:10:16.000 He's killing it by biting the back of its neck, and he literally is ten times smaller than it.

01:10:21.000 That's amazing. 0.95

01:10:21.000 Is it dead right there? 0.95

01:10:22.000 Wow, yeah.

01:10:22.000 The other rabbit's like, dead?

01:10:24.000 Thank you, BBC. Fucking dorks. 1.00

01:10:26.000 Help your friend. 1.00

01:10:27.000 That's why you're gonna go extinct, you cunts. 1.00

01:10:33.000 You're a fucking asshole. 1.00

01:10:34.000 You have big teeth. 1.00

01:10:35.000 How about you turn on the bitch? 1.00

01:10:36.000 Turn on him and bite him in the neck. 1.00

01:10:39.000 Is it stout? 1.00

01:10:41.000 Or stout, you think?

01:10:43.000 S-T-O-A-T. Stout.

01:10:46.000 It seems like it would be stout.

01:10:48.000 Yeah.

01:10:48.000 No, but a U would be stout.

01:10:51.000 Stout.

01:10:52.000 Stout.

01:10:53.000 Stout.

01:10:56.000 I've never seen one of those before in my time outside.

01:10:58.000 Never even heard about it.

01:10:59.000 Never even heard about it.

01:11:00.000 I didn't even know it was a thing until 10 minutes ago.

01:11:01.000 They're savage.

01:11:02.000 They're savage.

01:11:02.000 Next thing you know, they're going to be nipping at your calves trying to take you down.

01:11:07.000 That should be the American animal, not an eagle.

01:11:09.000 I know.

01:11:09.000 Weasels in Ireland and here, everywhere else, they're called short-tailed weasels.

01:11:13.000 Oh, so it's a kind of weasel.

01:11:14.000 Yeah.

01:11:14.000 Weasels are vicious little motherfuckers.

01:11:16.000 That's what I'm saying. 1.00

01:11:17.000 Why are weasels like the weasel?

01:11:20.000 When you think about Pauly Shore, when he would do the weasel, you thought of him whistling.

01:11:25.000 You didn't think of him as being a ruthless killer of something ten times in size.

01:11:29.000 No, weasels are cute. 0.99

01:11:30.000 Like if Pauly Shore was taking down giant bitches, like huge, 25 feet tall women and just smashing them. 1.00

01:11:38.000 That would be what... 1.00

01:11:39.000 That's a sweet little animal.

01:11:41.000 But even the way that little weasel was chasing the rabbit was kind of cute.

01:11:46.000 He was just bounded along.

01:11:47.000 Adorable.

01:11:48.000 Very adorable.

01:11:49.000 What was adorable was he would run by...

01:11:50.000 He was so mean.

01:11:51.000 He would run by the other rabbits.

01:11:53.000 He didn't care.

01:11:54.000 He determined about this rabbit.

01:11:55.000 This brings up...

01:11:56.000 On my podcast, we had a guy on there named Randy Newberg.

01:12:00.000 I know Randy.

01:12:01.000 Randy's awesome.

01:12:02.000 Yeah, he's great.

01:12:03.000 Lives in Bozeman, and he's great.

01:12:05.000 We did a deal about ethics.

01:12:08.000 And a lot of folks wrote in and they said, I'd be interested to hear what you think about this.

01:12:14.000 If an animal is wounded, and say you're up in a tree stand or you're hunting spot and stalk, or in the case of Randy, hunting over a waterhole, if you're doing that and you're a hunter, you hold a tag, you can choose which animal you'd like to kill.

01:12:31.000 You have a buck or a doe, a male or female tag, you can choose which one.

01:12:36.000 You want to kill.

01:12:37.000 If an animal comes by you that has been wounded, clearly been wounded, clearly struggling, you know, in the case of Randy Newberg, he was sitting on a waterhole, and I believe he was in Arizona, with a trophy tag, which means there was a lot of big mule deer walking around, 0.52

01:12:55.000 a lot of big antelope walking around in that situation, pronghorn.

01:12:58.000 Well, let's explain to people that are listening that don't know what we're talking about.

01:13:01.000 When he says a trophy tag, what he means is there's some units that are designated as trophy areas.

01:13:07.000 It doesn't mean you don't eat the animal.

01:13:08.000 What it does mean is that it's very difficult to get into this area.

01:13:13.000 You have to have a certain amount of points, which means you're putting in to the pool of money that is for conservation, for habitat protection.

01:13:23.000 You're putting in every year to try to get a tag.

01:13:28.000 Yeah.

01:13:48.000 What an over-the-counter unit is, is they know that there's a large, healthy population of animals, and either the wildlife biologists and the state representative, they choose to just let anybody go in, and when they think that the animals are diminishing too much,

01:14:04.000 then they'll put a cap on it, but for now, it's an over-the-counter unit.

01:14:07.000 And then they have places that are very difficult to draw units.

01:14:10.000 And those difficult-to-draw units is one of the places where Randy Newberg was because he was looking for a big, old, mature animal that had spread its genetics.

01:14:19.000 And it's tough.

01:14:19.000 The term trophy has been so weaponized that it's tough.

01:14:22.000 It's my fault for using...

01:14:24.000 I use it not in the term that most people think of it.

01:14:27.000 I think of trophies as a lot of different things.

01:14:29.000 A mature animal, that's, again, once in a lifetime.

01:14:32.000 It takes so many years to draw.

01:14:34.000 I think you should just call it a limited-draw unit.

01:14:36.000 Limited-draw unit.

01:14:37.000 Yeah, limited draw unit, hard to get area.

01:14:39.000 Once in a lifetime hunt where you're never going to hunt there again and you're looking for the most unique animal that you can find, the most mature animal that you can find.

01:14:46.000 But along the way...

01:14:47.000 Yeah, but along the way, like in this case, ethically, he runs into a limping antelope, a pronghorn.

01:14:53.000 It comes into a water hole and it's limping to the point where he thinks, oh...

01:14:57.000 And this happens to a lot of hunters.

01:14:58.000 He thinks, oh, I have this tag.

01:15:01.000 I've waited a long time to get it.

01:15:02.000 It's a very unique tag, of course, is the way you explained it.

01:15:06.000 And...

01:15:08.000 I can eat this antelope just the same as I would any other one, but to exercise some mercy around this antelope that's clearly suffering, clearly injured, who knows how it got injured, limping up to a waterhole,

01:15:23.000 he's having this ethical pondering in his head, like, should I dispatch this thing and it's suffering, fill my tag this way.

01:15:33.000 Because with a tag in that nature, if you have a tag, you can then choose to do anything you want with it in legal bounds.

01:15:38.000 Right.

01:15:39.000 You didn't wound this animal, so you could let that animal pass and choose a larger, more mature, more impressive animal.

01:15:44.000 And you can let nature take its course, whether predation or not in the case of this one, but winter kill or something may take that animal.

01:15:51.000 Or you can end its quote-unquote suffering.

01:15:55.000 You don't know.

01:15:55.000 We can't talk to the animal and ask it.

01:15:57.000 It's opinion.

01:15:58.000 But you can end what looks like it's suffering and fill your tag in that way.

01:16:02.000 That's not the way normal hunts play out, but a lot of hunters are put in that ethical situation.

01:16:07.000 It's pretty rare, but it can happen.

01:16:09.000 It can happen.

01:16:09.000 It's never happened to me, but we did.

01:16:11.000 What was your answer? 0.94

01:16:12.000 So his answer was to shoot that antelope. 0.97

01:16:15.000 I agree with that. 0.98

01:16:16.000 You know why?

01:16:16.000 Because also, here's another possibility.

01:16:18.000 No antelopes come by.

01:16:19.000 Yeah.

01:16:20.000 So if no antelopes come by, just by fate, you don't get an animal.

01:16:25.000 Yeah.

01:16:25.000 So you spend seven days out there in the wilderness and you come home empty-handed.

01:16:29.000 You don't get to eat an antelope.

01:16:31.000 Yeah.

01:16:31.000 Or you're presented with this opportunity to be merciful, to take this animal out that's injured, and you get to keep an antelope.

01:16:39.000 And although it's not the antelope that you dreamed of, but it's still healthy meat.

01:16:43.000 Still, yes.

01:16:43.000 And you get to feel good the fact that you really did...

01:17:07.000 Yeah.

01:17:09.000 But this is unique to the hunter's responsibility to look at this animal and make this decision.

01:17:15.000 Here's another argument.

01:17:16.000 Another argument is you really should do nothing because those are the animals that are designated to be taken out by the predators and you want to keep the predator population healthy.

01:17:24.000 That was more my answer, Randy's answer.

01:17:26.000 We went back and forth, of course.

01:17:28.000 I see both sides.

01:17:30.000 I see both sides, too.

01:17:31.000 And I think that's one of those situations where, as a hunter...

01:17:35.000 I'll go back.

01:17:36.000 There's another podcast I did with a guy named Dushan Smetana.

01:17:40.000 That's his real name?

01:17:41.000 That's his real name.

01:17:42.000 He's fantastic.

01:17:43.000 Dushan Smetana?

01:17:44.000 Dushan Smetana.

01:17:45.000 He's from Czechoslovakia.

01:17:46.000 He's an outdoor photographer and he's a dope individual and a wonderful human being.

01:17:51.000 He better be with that name.

01:17:52.000 He lives up to that name.

01:17:54.000 Sporty name.

01:17:54.000 He'd like sip eyes fire.

01:17:56.000 Like let me say, sip eyes fire.

01:17:58.000 Does he wear handmade boots?

01:17:59.000 Of course he does, Joe.

01:18:00.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:18:00.000 Get the fuck out of here. 0.99

01:18:02.000 What do you think he's wearing? 1.00

01:18:03.000 He seems like he would.

01:18:04.000 He makes his own moccasins.

01:18:05.000 The most interesting man in the world.

01:18:06.000 He is very much this.

01:18:08.000 I did a podcast with him.

01:18:10.000 We sat by his fire and we drank plum brandy that he makes himself, of course.

01:18:15.000 He does?

01:18:15.000 Really?

01:18:15.000 He makes his own honey.

01:18:16.000 He has Icelandic sheep that he shears and eats.

01:18:19.000 He does a sada.

01:18:20.000 He kills a lamb every year and feeds everyone a sada.

01:18:23.000 Wonderful human being.

01:18:24.000 He grew up in Czechoslovakia.

01:18:26.000 And part of his describing his growing up is like, there's a term, and I'll butcher the pronunciation of it, but miklovik is the term that he used to describe a hunter.

01:18:37.000 It's like hunter or the one who thinks.

01:18:40.000 And the way he described the cultural significance of a hunter when he was growing up in the late 80s in Czechoslovakia was that the hunter was the judge and jury.

01:18:54.000 So there was like a reverence around hunting, a reverence around a hunter because that hunter got the privilege in his culture to be the judge and jury for what animal gets taken out of the herd.

01:19:07.000 Making that very serious decision to say this animal is wounded, this animal is too old, this animal is young enough.

01:19:17.000 You've talked about it a lot on this podcast with some other smart hunters.

01:19:22.000 I think what hunting needs to become now that it isn't is...

01:19:28.000 This exalted status in our society where we're giving somebody with a hunting tag or a hunting license, you're giving somebody the opportunity to make a decision about something's life.

01:19:39.000 Well, you say exalted status, the problem is you don't have to earn that status, right?

01:19:43.000 It's like you can just go out and do it.

01:19:45.000 And one of the things that I've found out about hunting that is, I don't know if it's necessarily surprising, but it's very difficult to express is Without personal experience is that the consequences are so different than what you would think.

01:20:06.000 It's very difficult to do.

01:20:07.000 It's very physically exhausting.

01:20:09.000 The consequences of your actions are so grave and the rewards are so much different than any other way of acquiring food.

01:20:16.000 Even fishing, which I love.

01:20:18.000 I love fishing.

01:20:19.000 I love fish.

01:20:20.000 I like to eat them.

01:20:20.000 They're delicious.

01:20:21.000 They're delicious.

01:20:21.000 I like to catch them.

01:20:22.000 They're fun.

01:20:23.000 I like catching fish.

01:20:24.000 It's not the same.

01:20:26.000 There's something that we, and I don't think this is a learned thing.

01:20:30.000 I think there's a connection to difficult to acquire mammals that goes deep in our DNA. And I think this is the reason why we, I think one of the reasons why we enjoy fishing is Is because those reward systems were put in place by people that survived by eating fish.

01:20:48.000 By all those generations of people that did catch fish, and that was how they ate that day.

01:20:53.000 That excitement lives inside of you.

01:20:56.000 And you spark that up when you get a big steelhead on the line.

01:20:59.000 That's right.

01:21:00.000 You hear that reel go...

01:21:03.000 Because you're being informed by people that didn't have a choice, man.

01:21:06.000 These are people that had to have that fish to live.

01:21:08.000 Exactly.

01:21:09.000 So even though it's recreation to you, it's a thrilling recreation.

01:21:12.000 But then the consequences aren't as grave.

01:21:16.000 There's something about a wounded deer or a wounded elk that is so horrific and a merciful killing that it's such a relief that There's something powerful about it.

01:21:31.000 Like I told you, I shot that elk that it's out there that it walked four yards.

01:21:36.000 And I'm not exaggerating.

01:21:38.000 Four yards and fell over.

01:21:39.000 It was dead like that.

01:21:41.000 And the guys who were there, they said it was quicker than any rifle shot they had ever seen an elk die.

01:21:47.000 So they usually stand up longer from that.

01:21:50.000 That's what everybody wants.

01:21:52.000 Of course they do.

01:21:53.000 Of course they do.

01:21:55.000 But if I catch a fish and I pull him out of the water and throw him on the ice and he's flopping around for a few hours, I'm just happy I got him.

01:22:04.000 Yeah.

01:22:05.000 It's different.

01:22:06.000 Well, you've had Michael Pollan on the show before.

01:22:08.000 He wrote that Omnore's Dilemma.

01:22:09.000 And in it, he just said, basically, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said, hunting is so different from the inside than it is from the outside.

01:22:17.000 It's so easy to view hunting in the lens of like, there's a dude sitting behind a deer smiling and grabbing its antlers.

01:22:23.000 There's also the problem that malnutrition in this country is almost non-existent. 1.00

01:22:29.000 Fat people are poor people in this country, which is fucked. 0.99

01:22:32.000 Like, poor people are fat, which is one of the weirder things about our society. 1.00

01:22:37.000 This has never happened in the history of human beings that the poor people were the big fat ones. 0.95

01:22:43.000 They got cell phones.

01:22:44.000 I mean, there's a lot of rich people that are fat, too.

01:22:46.000 Don't get me wrong.

01:22:47.000 But people don't have a problem being fat, right?

01:22:51.000 And this doesn't mean that there's not a lot of malnutrition.

01:22:53.000 There most certainly is.

01:22:54.000 But it's nutrition.

01:22:56.000 It's not a lack of calories.

01:22:58.000 Lack of calories was a massive problem throughout most of human history.

01:23:03.000 The lack of food.

01:23:05.000 So the access to food is so normal to us.

01:23:10.000 It's so easy.

01:23:12.000 But the unfettered access to food is what's really normal now.

01:23:14.000 That's what's changed with industrialization and coming on.

01:23:18.000 Fast food.

01:23:18.000 Yeah, fast food.

01:23:18.000 Fast food is fucked.

01:23:19.000 Processed food is fucked. 1.00

01:23:20.000 Yeah, even if you go back to when people, when hunting was more normal in the 1920s or the 1930s, it was really normal. 1.00

01:23:29.000 There was also no fast food.

01:23:31.000 Yeah.

01:23:31.000 So when you would get a roast, even if you went to a butcher and you got a roast and you brought it home and you were making roast beef and you're cooking it, or your uncle shot a deer.

01:23:42.000 When was the last time milk was delivered to your door?

01:23:45.000 Yeah, right?

01:23:46.000 Not my dad.

01:23:47.000 You know, so there's a lot of different...

01:23:48.000 It was raw.

01:23:49.000 It was raw.

01:23:50.000 Yeah.

01:23:50.000 So there's a lot of different...

01:23:51.000 Yeah, like the removal from the actual, you know, process that hunters go through.

01:23:57.000 Actually, it might not have been raw.

01:23:59.000 Like, when did they start pasteurizing and homogenization?

01:24:02.000 Yeah, that's a Jamie thing.

01:24:03.000 That was Louis Pasteur.

01:24:07.000 Pasteur.

01:24:08.000 That is who it was.

01:24:09.000 Pasteurization, right?

01:24:10.000 That's what it came from.

01:24:12.000 Yeah, pasteurized milk.

01:24:14.000 Yeah.

01:24:14.000 When did they start implementing that?

01:24:16.000 Like when you would get the milk on your door in those glass jars.

01:24:19.000 Didn't that milk go bad quick though?

01:24:21.000 But that's, you know, my grandparents, that's what they would describe, the milkmen.

01:24:25.000 1880s?

01:24:25.000 That's when it started?

01:24:26.000 That's when it started.

01:24:27.000 I wonder when it was common.

01:24:30.000 But you think about like market hunting.

01:24:32.000 We always talk about hunting like the turn of the century being this huge moment in hunting conservation.

01:24:38.000 Market hunting really became a thing when it accelerated when refrigeration became a reality.

01:24:45.000 Right.

01:24:45.000 And accelerated when railroads could take meat from the Great American West back to the cities in the East Coast.

01:24:52.000 And so those things accelerated, that technology and those things accelerated market hunting and the depredation of things like the whitetail deer and the buffalo as we all, famously the buffalo.

01:25:03.000 I'm just trying to flavor this in the context of most people that hear these conversations don't really know what we're talking about.

01:25:11.000 You're obviously well versed in this but for a lot of folks they don't understand that what happened was after the Civil War in particular There's a lot of soldiers that weren't fighting anymore in the war, and they got jobs as hunters, and they would just go out with no rules and shoot as many animals as they wanted.

01:25:30.000 The term we call that is market hunting, and market hunting means that they're out hunting for marketing the meat or marketing the hides or marketing parts of the animal to themselves.

01:25:40.000 Sometimes just the tongue.

01:25:41.000 They would shoot buffaloes for just the tongue. 1.00

01:25:43.000 Yep.

01:25:44.000 So, in that time, at the turn of the century, right?

01:25:47.000 1880s, in the turn of the century, we had mass, mass killings of...

01:25:52.000 People just think of buffalo, really.

01:25:53.000 But, white-tailed deer, mallard duck, wild turkey.

01:25:57.000 Elk.

01:25:57.000 Black bear.

01:25:58.000 Black bear.

01:25:59.000 Look at that.

01:26:00.000 Jesus Christ.

01:26:02.000 Yes.

01:26:02.000 This is...

01:26:03.000 We're looking at a photograph of, like, so many fucking animals just hanging from these... 0.99

01:26:08.000 Some ducks there. 1.00

01:26:08.000 Mostly ducks. 1.00

01:26:09.000 Looks like all ducks.

01:26:10.000 I don't see anything yet, but...

01:26:13.000 There's nothing...

01:26:14.000 What are those all?

01:26:15.000 What are those?

01:26:16.000 Easter eggs.

01:26:17.000 Like bears?

01:26:18.000 Those are all ducks.

01:26:19.000 Yeah.

01:26:22.000 So there's deer.

01:26:23.000 Those are all deer.

01:26:23.000 Market hunting deer.

01:26:24.000 But they decimated massive quantities of these wild game animals that we cherished today.

01:26:32.000 There's more white-tailed here today than when Christopher Columbus landed on this continent. 0.98

01:26:36.000 Yeah.

01:26:38.000 At the time, at the turn of the century, at the height of the market hunting crisis in this country, there were enough whitetail deer that they probably would have been on the endangered species list or been close.

01:26:53.000 So the model of conservation that we then enacted, I don't want to say, I don't want to overexert this for people who have never heard of it, but if you look up, Jamie, the North American model of wildlife conservation, There was a ton of key figures in taking what America had at that point,

01:27:12.000 which was basically the Wild West, where animals are dying at mass.

01:27:15.000 And with railroads and refrigeration, like we said, they're then feeding and clothing at that time the masses in the urban settings, you know, in New York and different places.

01:27:26.000 But as these centuries turned over and as you get into the teens and the 20s, guys like Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinochet, John Muir, there was a bunch of figures who essentially kicked off what is America's conservation movement.

01:27:45.000 The movement to conserve not only the wildlife populations but wild lands and wild waters and significant places in this country that we needed to protect.

01:27:55.000 Because around the turn of the century, we did not have that feeling of value as a society.

01:28:00.000 There wasn't like, we have to go value that thing we've never seen because you could never see it.

01:28:05.000 Right.

01:28:05.000 And so they set about building a value structure for not only wildlife, but wild places.

01:28:14.000 And they also set about a way that the user would pay for this conservation.

01:28:21.000 Right.

01:28:21.000 And these are the constructs of what we now know to be the North American model of wildlife conservation.

01:28:27.000 Which, I mean, if you look at it today, it's like one of the most successful and like the seminal systems of conservation in the world.

01:28:36.000 In the world.

01:28:37.000 It wasn't really codified until the 80s.

01:28:39.000 Until guys like Dr. Valerius Geist and Shane Mahoney and folks wrote it down and said this is what it is.

01:28:46.000 But if you could pull up the tenets of the North American model, because I could list them off.

01:28:52.000 North American model of wildlife conservation, wildlife as public trust resources, elimination of markets for game.

01:28:59.000 That's why people say, hey, where can I buy some elk?

01:29:01.000 You can't.

01:29:02.000 You can buy it from New Zealand.

01:29:04.000 You can't.

01:29:04.000 So let's go wildlife.

01:29:06.000 Wildlife is a public trust.

01:29:07.000 That just basically means the states hold the wildlife in trust for the public.

01:29:12.000 These animals belong to us.

01:29:14.000 State holds them in trust and manages them in trust for us.

01:29:18.000 Now, for people that have a problem with that as an idea that we would own a living thing, the only reason for that is to protect those living things.

01:29:27.000 I understand on semantics that you would have issue with, you know, humans shouldn't own life, man.

01:29:33.000 We don't, and maybe own is the wrong word to use, bro.

01:29:38.000 Maybe own is the wrong word to use, but it's like manage and cohabitate with.

01:29:42.000 Maybe that's the better way to say it.

01:29:43.000 By being, by, look, whether we protect them or whether we decimate them, right?

01:29:48.000 We are the stewards of the land.

01:29:50.000 We are.

01:29:50.000 We are the ones, the monkeys with the guns.

01:29:53.000 We have the ability to say, here's this number of animals.

01:29:57.000 Here's this number of land.

01:29:58.000 Here's how we encroach upon that land.

01:30:00.000 Let's study that and make sure that's all good.

01:30:03.000 And then let's actively manage it as hunters and anglers to make sure the carrying capacity of this land meets the wildlife populations.

01:30:11.000 Everything is working in order.

01:30:13.000 It's the sustainable use of natural resources.

01:30:16.000 That's what hunting is.

01:30:17.000 If anybody asks you like, hey dude, what's hunting?

01:30:20.000 You say, hunting in the North American model is a sustainable use of a natural resource.

01:30:25.000 Yes.

01:30:26.000 To eat.

01:30:27.000 To eat.

01:30:27.000 Elimination of markets for game.

01:30:30.000 We covered that.

01:30:30.000 None of these animals that we're talking about, whether you're eating black bear or whether you're eating deer, you cannot buy that stuff.

01:30:38.000 If you buy it, you're going to get raised, farm-raised meat, and most of it is from New Zealand.

01:30:43.000 Yep.

01:30:44.000 Allocation of wildlife by law.

01:30:46.000 Right.

01:30:46.000 There's laws, right?

01:30:48.000 There's a law to say how many animals you can kill.

01:30:52.000 Just like that fellow in Missouri that's got to watch Bambi, if you kill more than you're supposed to kill, you're a poacher now, you've broken the law.

01:30:58.000 And the law is dictated in most really good states, like Montana, by wildlife biologists, conservationists, and people that understand the population, what's a healthy population for the area, and how to maintain a correct balance.

01:31:14.000 And there's a real science to that, folks.

01:31:16.000 Yep.

01:31:17.000 You know, the science of...

01:31:18.000 When you talk to wildlife biologists about this...

01:31:21.000 I mean, we had a great podcast with Doug Duren.

01:31:23.000 Yes.

01:31:23.000 And Brian...

01:31:24.000 What was Brian's last name?

01:31:25.000 Love Doug Duren.

01:31:26.000 What was... 1.00

01:31:29.000 I fucking can't remember my shitty brain. 0.99

01:31:32.000 But we were talking about CWD, chronic wasting disease, the spread of it amongst wild animals, and then just... 1.00

01:31:39.000 Richards.

01:31:39.000 Brian Richards.

01:31:40.000 Shout out to Brian Richards.

01:31:41.000 And me, pal, Doug Duren.

01:31:43.000 I love you, Doug.

01:31:44.000 You're great.

01:31:45.000 Doug's the best.

01:31:46.000 Keep fighting that CWD fight over there.

01:31:47.000 So...

01:31:49.000 What we talked about was the actual science behind this one particular issue, but you grow to appreciate, when you hear someone like him talk, you grow to appreciate the complex nature of wildlife biology and maintaining the populations of animals,

01:32:04.000 keeping them healthy, and making sure that these habitats are preserved.

01:32:08.000 This is very complicated stuff.

01:32:10.000 Oh, it's impossible to really understand the scope of these, like you take Take Wyoming or Montana.

01:32:17.000 We tend to cordon off things we really care about.

01:32:20.000 Like, oh, grizzly bears and the greater Yellowstone ecosystem.

01:32:23.000 We really care about that.

01:32:24.000 That's the thing to talk about.

01:32:25.000 But really what we should be talking about is in really what most wildlife managers are looking at is this biodiversity and health of all wildlife populations.

01:32:36.000 Predator-prey balance.

01:32:37.000 Predator-prey balance.

01:32:38.000 These are things that we've set about in this model of conservation to say we're not just bi-license, bi-license.

01:32:46.000 We are using science and biology to dictate the way in which hunting is used to benefit these populations.

01:32:52.000 Put that back up, Jamie.

01:32:57.000 Jamie, you Googling porn?

01:33:00.000 Wildlife can only be killed for a legitimate purpose.

01:33:03.000 That kind of says it all.

01:33:04.000 Right.

01:33:04.000 It does, but what does that mean is where it gets weird with people.

01:33:09.000 Here's one.

01:33:10.000 Here's one where people get really crazy. 0.95

01:33:12.000 They get really crazy when you kill predators. 0.91

01:33:16.000 Yeah, even if you're going to eat them.

01:33:17.000 Like, I was looking at Adam Greentree's page, and Adam Greentree shot a cougar.

01:33:21.000 Did he send you that meat?

01:33:23.000 He has not.

01:33:23.000 He's going to be here, and we're going to cook it together.

01:33:26.000 Whoa.

01:33:26.000 We're going to cook some mountain lion back straps.

01:33:28.000 I hear tell it's delicious.

01:33:29.000 I've never had.

01:33:30.000 You?

01:33:31.000 I have.

01:33:31.000 I haven't had it that I've shot, but somebody else has prepared.

01:33:34.000 You say you hear tell, but you have had it.

01:33:36.000 I have had it, and it is delicious.

01:33:37.000 Are you being coy?

01:33:38.000 I'm not being coy at all.

01:33:39.000 Are you saying hear tell?

01:33:40.000 I hear tell.

01:33:41.000 I like to sound folksy so people understand what I'm saying.

01:33:44.000 But no, I said it's superb.

01:33:46.000 It's like lean and delicate and it's like pork almost.

01:33:49.000 It's really good.

01:33:50.000 And then people will go crazy like, why are you killing that? 0.99

01:33:53.000 Do you understand how fucked it is that you have zero problem with someone killing a deer? 0.99

01:34:00.000 But you have a problem with someone killing a mountain lion. 1.00

01:34:02.000 And this is a real issue. 0.99

01:34:03.000 You have a problem with someone killing something that will fucking for sure kill you if it catches you alone in the forest. 0.99

01:34:10.000 Yes. 1.00

01:34:10.000 Fucking for sure kill your dog. 1.00

01:34:12.000 For sure kill your kids. 1.00

01:34:13.000 Definitely kill those cute little deer. 1.00

01:34:15.000 And kill a shitload of them. 1.00

01:34:17.000 Absolutely. 1.00

01:34:18.000 One every couple of days for its entire life.

01:34:21.000 Forever.

01:34:22.000 They're experts at it. 0.98

01:34:24.000 And for whatever reason, we get it in our head that if, and I think this comes from this whole idea of trophy hunting, that if you kill something like that, you're only killing that thing because you have a little dick and it doesn't work and you want to be a big man, so you kill this thing that's better than you and you ruin this beautiful animal. 0.96

01:34:41.000 It's the definition of a surface level. 0.97

01:34:44.000 Examination.

01:34:44.000 It is, but it isn't.

01:34:46.000 Because this is the narrative that's been pushed through all the channels.

01:34:51.000 Unless they go out and research this stuff objectively in depth, then why would you?

01:34:56.000 They can't.

01:34:57.000 They won't.

01:34:58.000 But let's be devil's advocate.

01:34:59.000 Why would you, if you're an accountant?

01:35:01.000 What do I want to look into the subtleties of predator hunting for?

01:35:04.000 Keep that up, please. 0.98

01:35:05.000 Why do I give a fuck about that? 1.00

01:35:08.000 Why do I get some assholes who want to shoot mountain lions? 1.00

01:35:10.000 What crazy... 1.00

01:35:11.000 Oh, is he going to use dogs?

01:35:13.000 Oh, wow.

01:35:14.000 Great idea.

01:35:14.000 That's not fair.

01:35:15.000 That's so unfair.

01:35:16.000 Can we talk for a minute about baiting bears?

01:35:19.000 Yes.

01:35:22.000 Legitimate purpose.

01:35:23.000 Legitimate purpose, right?

01:35:24.000 Do you want to keep that down for the light?

01:35:26.000 Is that what it is?

01:35:27.000 Just pick it back up when we need it.

01:35:28.000 We'll get to it.

01:35:30.000 I've read stories, and you and I have baited when Haunting for Bears baited before.

01:35:36.000 And so, I've heard a lot of...

01:35:39.000 In hunting, they have the term fair chase, which means legitimate reason for the...

01:35:44.000 Ability for the animal to escape.

01:35:45.000 You're hunting the animal in all fairness in the pursuit.

01:35:50.000 People beat up on baited bear hunting a lot.

01:35:53.000 Probably because bears are involved. 0.62

01:35:55.000 Probably because it seems unfair to sit in a chair...

01:36:01.000 And put out some donuts or put out a dead beaver or put out whatever attracts a bear to put a smell out into the forest.

01:36:10.000 The bear smells it, it comes to eat, and you're there to kill it.

01:36:13.000 That seems like what? 0.99

01:36:14.000 Lazy?

01:36:15.000 Seems like...

01:36:16.000 That seems a lot of things.

01:36:17.000 Cheating.

01:36:19.000 So people would say, that's not fair chase.

01:36:20.000 That's not ethical, right?

01:36:22.000 And in some ways I agree with that in comparison to other ways of hunting, right?

01:36:26.000 But at the same time, I can tell you this.

01:36:29.000 There's no more ethical, if the idea is to kill the animal, kill the right animal, especially in bear hunting, you're trying to kill a specific boar, a male bear, that is older, past breeding, anybody who's bear hunted will tell you one of the hardest things to judge while it's living is a bear.

01:36:49.000 Whether it's a male or a female, how big it is, how old it is, they are hard to judge.

01:36:54.000 Because they're black, they slide through the forest, they all look, they don't stand, there's no markers. 0.99

01:37:00.000 Like, if the bear is standing next to a Volkswagen bug, you go, oh, okay, I know how big a bug is, I know how big the bear is.

01:37:08.000 If the bear is next to some tree that's 100 yards away, you really can't tell.

01:37:12.000 It's hard.

01:37:13.000 So spotting and stalking, what we call spotting and stalking, which is like walking around, trying to find a bear, looking at it far away and getting close enough to kill it, whether it's with a rifle or a bow.

01:37:21.000 There's a lot of problems with what seems to be a fair way to achieve the pursuit of that animal.

01:37:27.000 There's a ton of problems around that because they're hard to judge.

01:37:31.000 You can come up on a sow, a female bear that has cubs in a bush, not see the cubs, not know that it's a sow, you're far away with a rifle, you crack, you kill it, two cubs run out of the bush.

01:37:42.000 That is not what you were trying to do.

01:37:43.000 You made a mistake there.

01:37:45.000 In the scenario where you are at a bait site, this animal comes in, it's walking around very close to where you are.

01:37:52.000 You get to judge it. 0.62

01:37:54.000 You get to look between its legs, see if it has a dick or not, and then determine it's the animal you want to dispatch and dispatch it ethically because it's closer to you. 0.99

01:38:04.000 It's 20 yards. 0.99

01:38:05.000 It's stabilized.

01:38:06.000 A lot of times it hopefully doesn't know you're there rather than doing it from further away or having to stalk close to it.

01:38:13.000 So I say all this to say, like, this is complex.

01:38:16.000 What you think might be fair chase, what you think you might want to apply your own, you know, levels of fairness to, doesn't always equal the reality of pursuing that animal if the end game is to dispatch it fairly and kill it fairly.

01:38:30.000 Bears are a very unique animal. 0.98

01:38:34.000 There's so much more criticism because of teddy bears and yogi and fucking Coca-Cola commercials. 0.98

01:38:41.000 We have this idea of what a bear is. 0.99

01:38:43.000 And it's also...

01:38:45.000 The thing is...

01:38:47.000 And this is hard for people to accept... 0.97

01:38:50.000 Those old boars that we're trying to kill, if you kill them, it's better for the whole population of bears because they eat bears. 1.00

01:38:59.000 Now, this is where it gets really fucked up. 0.99

01:39:03.000 My friend Jonathan, who is... 0.96

01:39:06.000 You met John and Jen.

01:39:07.000 Of course, we were up there with them.

01:39:08.000 Jonathan, their son, saw one of the bears kill and start consuming a cub.

01:39:14.000 The female scared the bear off and then ate her own kid. 1.00

01:39:19.000 Yeah.

01:39:19.000 You listen to my podcast, I got a guy named Cole Kramer who I've hunted on Kodiak Island with.

01:39:25.000 He's seen male bears chase down sows, run them into a cave, rip, I mean he's watched them rip cubs and rip them in half and eat them and spit them out.

01:39:36.000 Yeah.

01:39:37.000 You know, and once you've seen that, you're, you know, no matter how many bear cartoons we show, no matter how many times a bear has suspenders on and is talking to us, it doesn't change, no matter how many times we name a bear, it doesn't change the bareness of the animal.

01:39:52.000 It doesn't change its prime.

01:39:54.000 It's a different animal.

01:39:55.000 It's a different kind of animal.

01:39:56.000 So there's nothing we can do to change bear being a bear.

01:39:59.000 I don't think there's any evidence that they don't eat their own kids either.

01:40:02.000 Yeah.

01:40:02.000 I don't think there is, right?

01:40:04.000 I'm sure somebody way more educated than me can tell you exactly what's happening there, but we know, you and I both know, that they're killing those two, they're killing as many cubs as they can to get the sow to come back and heat.

01:40:15.000 They're doing that and they're also doing it for food.

01:40:17.000 Food as well.

01:40:17.000 They eat them and they also try to bring the sow back into estrus.

01:40:21.000 You've talked about this before.

01:40:23.000 Hunters are in a specific, are in a really interesting position to have seen, to see these things and be intimate with these animals.

01:40:32.000 Which is, if you just explain what you explain to most people, they would just snap their head back like, what?

01:40:38.000 They're cannibals? 1.00

01:40:40.000 100% of them are cannibals. 0.94

01:40:41.000 Yeah, even the ones that wear suspenders.

01:40:48.000 I think what non-hunters want from hunters is to, one, say, listen, this is a complex thing that we're doing, right?

01:40:54.000 We're going into a wild place and removing from it something we didn't put there. 0.99

01:40:58.000 Fuck, that's serious. 0.99

01:41:00.000 We shouldn't be nonchalant about that. 1.00

01:41:02.000 We shouldn't celebrate it in ways that make it seem irreverent.

01:41:06.000 Right.

01:41:07.000 We should understand it's serious and take that action seriously.

01:41:12.000 Right.

01:41:13.000 We should be...

01:41:14.000 Again, that guy Dushan, he was explaining in Czechoslovakia, to go hunting, you had to go take a class and learn flora and fauna and learn how many pheasant eggs were in a nest.

01:41:26.000 Really?

01:41:26.000 Yeah.

01:41:27.000 And then once you became a hunter, in the terms that they describe it, then you had to...

01:41:33.000 It was the amount of work you put into the forest that denoted what you could then hunt.

01:41:37.000 So if you went to cut down this many trees, you could go hunt a deer.

01:41:41.000 If you only...

01:41:42.000 Did one certain thing you could hunt a rabbit.

01:41:44.000 Like they had this...

01:41:45.000 Yeah.

01:41:46.000 He describes it as this like interaction with...

01:41:48.000 So that was their conservation model.

01:41:50.000 That was their model of conservation.

01:41:51.000 It was very much like accountability.

01:41:53.000 And so I think what most non-hunters want from hunters.

01:41:55.000 Because for me, I don't think about anti-hunters as much as I think about somebody who just is smart, thoughtful, has never been...

01:42:04.000 You were this way at some point.

01:42:05.000 Sure.

01:42:06.000 You're like a person who really thought hard about what you were eating and wanted to explore...

01:42:12.000 What is happening here?

01:42:14.000 And is there alternative ways?

01:42:16.000 So I think what non-hunters want from hunters is for us to say, listen, we get it's complex, we get it's a serious thing, and we're doing our best to unpack the moral and ethical entanglements in what we do.

01:42:31.000 And it's not easy.

01:42:33.000 I mean, we flush pheasants when we can shoot them on the ground, And that's the way we do it.

01:42:39.000 We call that fair chase.

01:42:42.000 But we don't like when an animal comes close enough to us and eats the corn and we can shoot it.

01:42:46.000 We don't like that either.

01:42:47.000 So these things are just entangled.

01:42:50.000 It's a hard activity to reckon with.

01:42:54.000 Right.

01:42:54.000 Well, the baiting part of it is, it's absolutely not as good.

01:43:00.000 Yes.

01:43:01.000 I'm not saying I'm out there baiting every animal.

01:43:03.000 No, of course.

01:43:04.000 But I'm saying I can just see, as like somebody that likes the nuance of this and likes to explore this and likes to ask why.

01:43:10.000 It's like, why?

01:43:12.000 Why is it that that's the case?

01:43:13.000 Why is it that we look down on people that bait animals and Or use dogs.

01:43:17.000 Or use dogs.

01:43:18.000 It's the same reason.

01:43:20.000 They do it for the exact same reason.

01:43:21.000 So they get a close up ethical shot on a difficult to pursue animal.

01:43:25.000 Yeah, and it always goes back to the reasons we do what we do.

01:43:29.000 But again, I would hope that everybody listening to this, lots of people do that don't hunt, that they would ask themselves, what do I expect from hunters?

01:43:37.000 What is the thing that I expect you to do to earn?

01:43:40.000 Because I very much feel as a hunter, I need to earn the respect of the non-hunter. 0.99

01:43:44.000 I have a duty to my hunting community to actively earn the respect of every non-hunter I run into. 0.92

01:43:53.000 I feel like I gotta do it.

01:43:54.000 And maybe I'm just making it harder for myself.

01:43:57.000 But I feel like there's...

01:43:59.000 It's an almost impossible task.

01:44:01.000 Yeah, but you've probably done it.

01:44:04.000 I've done it on a one-to-one level.

01:44:05.000 Yeah.

01:44:06.000 I definitely have flipped people.

01:44:11.000 It's much easier when they eat meat.

01:44:14.000 When they eat meat, it makes sense.

01:44:16.000 But then they'll still have a problem with the bear thing, and the bear thing is one you've got to sit them down with.

01:44:20.000 I don't prefer to hunt bears.

01:44:23.000 I don't, in any way.

01:44:24.000 I get weirded out about trichinosis.

01:44:29.000 The meat is not as good to me.

01:44:31.000 It's It's good.

01:44:32.000 It tastes great.

01:44:33.000 You have a nice roast or bear stir fry or something.

01:44:36.000 It is delicious.

01:44:37.000 It's not like you spit it out, but it's not also like comparative to elk.

01:44:40.000 It's like, okay.

01:44:41.000 Yeah, you can't even have it medium rare, which is the best way to eat meat.

01:44:43.000 That's right.

01:44:44.000 So it's not the same to me.

01:44:46.000 But if I lived like in Alberta, where John and Jen live, I would realize that it's imperative.

01:44:52.000 You have to do it.

01:44:52.000 And if you do like to eat elk, and if you do like to eat deer, and if you do like to eat moose, it's really your responsibility to hunt bear.

01:44:59.000 Yeah.

01:44:59.000 Because they kill 50% of all the moose calves, the elk calves, and the deer fawns.

01:45:05.000 50% get killed by black bear.

01:45:07.000 Now, here's the other thing you could say.

01:45:10.000 Well, that's because nature has a balance. 0.99

01:45:12.000 And the reason why they're there is so those fucking deer don't look like those kangaroos in that park. 0.99

01:45:16.000 And that's true, too. 0.99

01:45:17.000 That's true, too.

01:45:18.000 They're right.

01:45:19.000 And I think it's our job to not have any sort of...

01:45:24.000 Bias when it comes to our examination of this information, whether it's flattering or not.

01:45:29.000 We have to be able to look at this objectively.

01:45:31.000 Yeah, you've got to be pragmatic.

01:45:32.000 Yes.

01:45:33.000 You have to.

01:45:33.000 And you have to be honest, and I think you have to address the complexity.

01:45:39.000 You have to realize that this is very complex. 0.99

01:45:41.000 But guess what, fuckface? 1.00

01:45:43.000 If you wear leather shoes, you've got leather clothes, you've got a leather interior in your car, you're eating cheeseburgers, you should probably shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:45:49.000 We're humans. 0.98

01:45:50.000 We're consumption engines.

01:45:51.000 We breathe in, we breathe out, we consume the world around us.

01:45:53.000 That's the way it works.

01:45:54.000 As you always say, life eats life.

01:45:57.000 But the reality of the situation for me is I've tried to, not stray away from, but try to add on to the pragmatic arguments for hunting.

01:46:05.000 To try to examine the emotional issues we have around caring for the single animal over caring for the entire species of that animal, or in any case, subspecies of that animal.

01:46:15.000 That, to me, is something I've tried to add on.

01:46:18.000 Let's first start with pragmatic arguments.

01:46:20.000 You eat meat. 1.00

01:46:21.000 You're fucking killing things. 1.00

01:46:22.000 Why aren't you thinking as hard as I'm thinking about this? 1.00

01:46:27.000 I really would love to build a bridge with people to say, I care.

01:46:33.000 Let's say you're an anti-hunter.

01:46:35.000 And you love animals.

01:46:36.000 You're a vegan.

01:46:37.000 You've had a lot of conversation around vegans.

01:46:40.000 I'm a vegan.

01:46:41.000 I really care about animals.

01:46:42.000 They're sentient beings.

01:46:43.000 They all deserve life.

01:46:45.000 Put that person in front of me. 0.99

01:46:47.000 And then I'll stand right beside them and be like, I fucking agree with you. 0.81

01:46:50.000 I agree that all animals are sentient beings. 0.96

01:46:53.000 I agree that they all deserve life.

01:46:55.000 And then I go to preserve that life for that animal.

01:46:58.000 That's what I go to do.

01:46:59.000 We start, me and that anti-hunter, I'm a hunter, start at the same point.

01:47:05.000 And over the years...

01:47:07.000 Sort of.

01:47:08.000 Sort of.

01:47:08.000 At its core, though.

01:47:09.000 You want to eat those animals.

01:47:10.000 I do.

01:47:11.000 So that eliminates you from their side.

01:47:14.000 But that's...

01:47:15.000 Instantly.

01:47:16.000 Yes.

01:47:17.000 Because you're a diet.

01:47:20.000 But...

01:47:20.000 You're an animal-consuming machine.

01:47:22.000 This person's an animal-consuming machine, they're just not admitting it.

01:47:24.000 They just don't understand that they're an animal-consuming machine because they don't organically garden.

01:47:28.000 Yes.

01:47:29.000 If they organically garden and eat everything that they grow themselves...

01:47:32.000 Even then, it's hard to detach yourself from your consumption of the world.

01:47:35.000 Yeah, and then, like, what's in your compost, bro?

01:47:38.000 Yeah.

01:47:39.000 If it makes it easier for you, let's just leave the vegan out of the conversation and say the non-hunter. 0.99

01:47:43.000 Yes.

01:47:43.000 It's like, I don't kill animals myself, but I care about them.

01:47:46.000 I'm like, I care about them and I kill them. 0.70

01:47:48.000 We're at the same, like if you remove the second part of the sentence, the first part is I care about them. 0.99

01:47:52.000 Right.

01:47:53.000 We both care about animals.

01:47:54.000 We're standing at one point.

01:47:55.000 And over time, whether it's mass media or just the way hunting has been marketed and the poor PR agent that we've had, we've kind of walked away from each other.

01:48:05.000 We both care about animals and we've kind of walked away from each other.

01:48:09.000 And over time, we've been unwilling to turn around and face each other and be like, remember when we started out thinking we all value these animals?

01:48:17.000 We value their lives.

01:48:18.000 We all care about them.

01:48:19.000 Hunting is just a version, our version, and it's worked.

01:48:23.000 Given that model of conservation we were talking about, it's worked.

01:48:26.000 For the white-tailed deer and the mallard duck, it's worked.

01:48:29.000 There's more than ever.

01:48:31.000 Um, I'm just doing it a different way than you've chosen to do it.

01:48:36.000 I'm doing it in a more proactive way than you've chosen, you know, to think about it.

01:48:42.000 And so, I would, if a vegan came up to me, I'd be like, listen man, we have more similarities, in my opinion, than we do differences.

01:48:49.000 We've just chosen the difference, the one big fat thing that's different.

01:48:53.000 The difference, though.

01:48:54.000 It's the most important difference. 1.00

01:48:55.000 You want to kill animals and eat them. 0.99

01:48:57.000 They don't think you should be allowed to. 1.00

01:48:58.000 They don't think it's right.

01:48:59.000 They don't think it's moral.

01:49:01.000 They don't think it's ethical.

01:49:02.000 They just think everything is wrong with what you're doing with your diet.

01:49:05.000 But we both care about animals. 0.99

01:49:07.000 That is a fucked up way to look at it. 0.98

01:49:08.000 I care about people, too. 0.99

01:49:09.000 I just like to eat them.

01:49:11.000 People are great.

01:49:12.000 I'm going to be president, but I'm going to eat five people a week.

01:49:14.000 But we've got a lot of people.

01:49:16.000 Imagine if you run for president and say, I really love people, but I like to eat them.

01:49:19.000 They would say, well, those are people.

01:49:21.000 Don't eat them.

01:49:23.000 That's what vegans would tell you about animals.

01:49:25.000 I would say, I'm telling you that by taking the lives of these few animals, I'm working on the full breath of this animal.

01:49:34.000 They would tell you, if you really cared, you'd just donate the money.

01:49:37.000 You'd just donate the money to conservation. 1.00

01:49:38.000 Fuck the Pittman-Robertson Act. 1.00

01:49:40.000 Just... 1.00

01:49:41.000 I'm still feeding my family.

01:49:43.000 I'm still making myself a better person. 0.99

01:49:44.000 I'm still enriching my fucking life. 0.97

01:49:46.000 So don't tell me I don't have the right to do that because you think animals are sentient. 0.99

01:49:49.000 You're still killing animals by driving on roads and eating corn and doing the things you're doing.

01:49:53.000 Right, but they're not directly killing them by their food choices.

01:49:58.000 Well, they don't know they are.

01:49:59.000 So, like, proxy killing is better than actual killing?

01:50:03.000 Well...

01:50:23.000 Consciously, right?

01:50:24.000 Yeah.

01:50:25.000 Or to grow soybeans in.

01:50:27.000 It's just a fact.

01:50:44.000 Yeah.

01:50:44.000 In that field as those gigantic machines come whirring by.

01:50:47.000 And that's how, when you're talking about large-scale agriculture, that's how things are harvested.

01:50:53.000 Of course.

01:50:54.000 They're not plucked one by one. 0.57

01:50:55.000 Now, if you're one of those people that has an organic garden and you pluck one by one, you take your rotten apple cores and your fucking orange peels and you throw it all in a compost pile with some dead leaves and you use that as fertilizer, You're going to run out of nitrogen because you need fish, 1.00

01:51:12.000 bitch. 1.00

01:51:13.000 Oh, shit. 1.00

01:51:14.000 I like how you switch from devil's advocate to like, you're on my side now. 1.00

01:51:17.000 We're in there, baby.

01:51:18.000 No, folks, guess what?

01:51:19.000 When you're buying fertilizer, it's dead fish. 0.99

01:51:21.000 Look, there's a fucking unusual cycle. 0.95

01:51:24.000 It's really weird, but the cycle is that dead animals actually fuel the plants that you consume. 0.99

01:51:31.000 So if you're a person that is, you know, even if you're eating wild plants, right, you want to eat some wild plants, I guarantee you some dead fucking squirrels and rats and pigeons and anything else went to fertilize that shit. 0.99

01:51:43.000 To fertilize that shit, yeah. 0.99

01:51:43.000 I mean, they've proven that there's salmon DNA sometimes in plants, right? 0.99

01:51:49.000 Because those plants have actually used salmon for a fertilizer. 0.99

01:51:53.000 People have used those dead fish, and that shit gets into the plants themselves. 0.99

01:51:58.000 It's all very strange, man. 0.99

01:52:00.000 There's no way out, man.

01:52:01.000 There's no way out of this.

01:52:02.000 But, in their eyes, even if there's no way out, it's the path of least pain and suffering. 0.98

01:52:08.000 And I would tell those folks, I respect the shit out of that. 0.57

01:52:12.000 And I'm trying to do... 0.98

01:52:14.000 I'm trying to take...

01:52:15.000 My own, this into my own hands, and actively go and do the thing that I know to be enriching to my life, to make me a better person, to make me a more skilled person, to give me more perspective on the world.

01:52:26.000 But at the end of the day, the byproducts of all that activity is a healthier ecosystem and more wildlife, because that's proven via the model we've said, and I feed my family with that.

01:52:37.000 And I'm just trying to do what you're doing in a more tangible way.

01:52:41.000 You're hands-off, I'm hands-on.

01:52:44.000 Is the way that I would say that.

01:52:45.000 And I respect the hands-off.

01:52:47.000 I respect, like, I'm cognizant of what's happening here and I'm trying to make it better.

01:52:52.000 I respect that.

01:52:53.000 I feel what you're saying and I see what you're trying to do. 1.00

01:52:55.000 But if I'm thinking through the eyes of a vegan, you can go fuck yourself. 1.00

01:53:00.000 I'm being the nice guy and you're being the dick. 1.00

01:53:03.000 Well, that's like vegans. 1.00

01:53:04.000 A lot of them are dicks. 1.00

01:53:06.000 Why can't I give a fuck myself? 1.00

01:53:08.000 Because you're killing and eating animals. 1.00

01:53:10.000 You're killing animals. 1.00

01:53:11.000 You fucking asshole. 1.00

01:53:12.000 You think you got a free pass? 1.00

01:53:14.000 Just kill animals anytime you want. 1.00

01:53:17.000 But you don't. 1.00

01:53:18.000 Some of them...

01:53:19.000 I like this devil's advocate side of you, Joe.

01:53:22.000 Thank you.

01:53:22.000 Did you see Moby?

01:53:23.000 You ever look at Moby's page?

01:53:25.000 Never had.

01:53:25.000 Moby has a wonderful Instagram page.

01:53:27.000 Never looked at Moby.

01:53:27.000 But he had something that was so preposterous the other day.

01:53:30.000 And I read the comments under it.

01:53:31.000 I was like, this is so hilarious.

01:53:33.000 It's about eggs.

01:53:48.000 This is true because eggs are full of cholesterol and saturated fat and because every year over 100,000 people in the US contract salmonella from eggs, they cannot legally be advertised as healthy or safe or nutritious.

01:53:58.000 Okay, first of all, that's not true.

01:54:00.000 Okay, I don't know why you posted that Moby and you didn't look into it.

01:54:03.000 Is there something called at animal equality?

01:54:05.000 First of all, let's just Google how many people get salmonella from eggs every year. 0.99

01:54:09.000 Because if it was 100,000, the fucking egg market would collapse so goddamn fast. 0.99

01:54:16.000 So let's dismantle Moby's. 0.99

01:54:19.000 Please go ahead, do that.

01:54:21.000 Just dismantle this preposterous idea that 100,000 people get salmonella.

01:54:26.000 Okay, here we go.

01:54:27.000 Even with safety steps in place, it is estimated that about 1 in 20,000 or 1 in 10,000 eggs are contaminated with salmonella.

01:54:37.000 Wow, that's a lot.

01:54:40.000 Is Moby right?

01:54:41.000 Yeah.

01:54:42.000 What did he say?

01:54:43.000 100,000 people get it?

01:54:45.000 Right.

01:54:46.000 But see if you could find how many people in the U.S. contract salmonella.

01:54:51.000 Because if they find out that there's salmonella in eggs, are they finding out that's from uncooked eggs?

01:55:00.000 Every year, about a million people get salmonella infected from foods that have been contaminated by one of the many kinds of salmonella.

01:55:08.000 Is he right?

01:55:09.000 Mm-hmm.

01:55:10.000 Okay, let's see if it's 100,000 people from eggs.

01:55:14.000 How many people per year get salmonella from eggs?

01:55:18.000 What does it say?

01:55:20.000 Salmonella in the United States.

01:55:22.000 142,000 people in the United States are infected each year with salmonella.

01:55:27.000 Whoa.

01:55:28.000 Hold on.

01:55:29.000 That says from chicken eggs.

01:55:31.000 Wait a minute.

01:55:32.000 142,000 people in the United States are infected each year with salmonella from chicken eggs, and about 30 die.

01:55:38.000 Dude, not only is Moby right, but he's off by 42,000.

01:55:44.000 Now you're going to be way more of a devil's advocate than you were before.

01:55:46.000 I'm going to hit you hard with this devil's advocate. 0.94

01:55:48.000 Let's go.

01:55:49.000 Hold on.

01:55:49.000 What'd you do, Jim?

01:55:49.000 I don't have any egg-related arguments.

01:55:52.000 I don't have any egg-related arguments.

01:55:55.000 Salmonella is specifically from chicken eggs.

01:55:57.000 Salmonellosis.

01:55:58.000 That's what it is when you get it.

01:56:00.000 So we found that this is true?

01:56:01.000 Yep.

01:56:02.000 Not only is it true, it's from 2010. Maybe it's different in 2018. 142,000 people in the United States are infected each year with salmonella enteritis from chicken eggs and about 30 die.

01:56:20.000 So we lost 30 pussies. 0.78

01:56:22.000 In 2010, an analysis of death certificate... 0.99

01:56:25.000 Joking.

01:56:26.000 My dad died for...

01:56:27.000 I was joking.

01:56:28.000 It's just a joke.

01:56:28.000 It's a comedy podcast.

01:56:29.000 We're in the comedy section of iTunes.

01:56:31.000 Identified 1,316 salmonella-related deaths from 1990 to 2006. Whoa.

01:56:38.000 Whoa.

01:56:39.000 Now...

01:56:39.000 Thanks, Moby.

01:56:40.000 But this is a problem. 1.00

01:56:41.000 These fucking dummies are eating them raw. 1.00

01:56:42.000 This is what I want you to Google. 1.00

01:56:44.000 How nutritious are eggs?

01:56:46.000 How about Google this?

01:56:48.000 There's a lot of ways to look at this situation. 0.99

01:56:50.000 I've been eating eggs my whole fucking life. 0.98

01:56:51.000 I've never gotten salmonella. 0.99

01:56:52.000 You look pretty good.

01:56:53.000 You're doing fine. 1.00

01:56:53.000 By the way, if you eat chicken raw, you get salmonella too, stupid. 1.00

01:56:56.000 You're not supposed to eat it raw. 1.00

01:56:57.000 You're supposed to cook it.

01:56:58.000 Okay.

01:56:59.000 One egg has only 75 calories with 7 grams of high-quality protein, 5 grams of fat, and 1.6 grams of saturated fat, along with iron, vitamins, minerals, and carotenoids.

01:57:11.000 The egg is a powerhouse of disease-fighting nutrients like lutein and zeaxithin. 0.99

01:57:17.000 Okay, Moby, so shut the fuck up. 0.99

01:57:19.000 They're super, super nutritious for you. 1.00

01:57:22.000 Just occasionally...

01:57:23.000 Back off, Moby.

01:57:24.000 Somebody gets salmonella. 1.00

01:57:25.000 How about just cook your fucking food, bro? 1.00

01:57:29.000 But here's where it gets really dark. 1.00

01:57:31.000 Why don't you Google this?

01:57:32.000 How many people die every year from E. coli from vegetables?

01:57:37.000 That's right. 0.69

01:57:37.000 Because of a shitload. 0.69

01:57:38.000 Anti-corn. 0.95

01:57:39.000 It's actually from farmed animals.

01:57:42.000 It's actually from agriculture. 1.00

01:57:43.000 A runoff from the shit. 1.00

01:57:45.000 Let's Google how much methane comes from. 1.00

01:57:48.000 How much methane comes from vegans broccoli farts?

01:57:51.000 Yeah.

01:57:52.000 It's deadly.

01:57:53.000 I like how...

01:57:53.000 Let's go back to this, like, where you play the vegan and I play...

01:57:56.000 Dude, it's fun.

01:57:58.000 Dude, Moby's so right.

01:57:59.000 He's not just right.

01:58:00.000 He's more than 40,000...

01:58:02.000 Moby, please, just...

01:58:05.000 Six degrees of Moby.

01:58:06.000 Edit your post with the correct number.

01:58:08.000 You're right about, like, eggs are dangerous, bro.

01:58:10.000 Don't eat them raw.

01:58:11.000 You could die. 1.00

01:58:11.000 Yeah, don't eat them raw, stupid. 1.00

01:58:13.000 Okay, here it goes. 1.00

01:58:14.000 CDC estimates 265,000 infections occur each year in the United States of E. coli.

01:58:22.000 Wow.

01:58:23.000 36% are caused by E. coli 0157.87.

01:58:30.000 Dude, it's almost all from animal agriculture. 1.00

01:58:32.000 It's almost all from shit, from shit water. 1.00

01:58:37.000 Types of E. coli that can cause illness can be transmitted through contaminated water or food through contract with animals or people. 1.00

01:58:43.000 Yeah, but when they say contaminated water, what they really mean is that water is contaminated with shit from animal agriculture. 0.96

01:58:49.000 I think almost entirely. 0.98

01:58:50.000 What is...

01:58:51.000 What is this timeline here?

01:58:53.000 The source of E. coli.

01:58:55.000 Google this.

01:58:56.000 Most prominent source of E. coli in vegetables.

01:59:01.000 I would guarantee you it's animal agriculture.

01:59:04.000 I mean, if you see those gigantic factory farms and the runoff and...

01:59:08.000 Most prominent source of E. coli and vegetables.

01:59:10.000 Is that what you said?

01:59:12.000 You're better at this than me.

01:59:14.000 Just so you can figure it out.

01:59:15.000 I'm just like, get it, Joe.

01:59:17.000 You find it.

01:59:18.000 You find the evidence.

01:59:19.000 I'm trying to be...

01:59:20.000 I'm trying to be... 0.99

01:59:21.000 Fucking Moby. 0.99

01:59:22.000 Yeah, I'm trying to be vegan. 1.00

01:59:24.000 I'm not arguing for the vegans.

01:59:25.000 I'm vegan.

01:59:26.000 I like this.

01:59:27.000 It's not hard to do.

01:59:28.000 No, it's not hard to do.

01:59:29.000 It's a respectable position, man.

01:59:31.000 It just is.

01:59:32.000 What does it say?

01:59:33.000 It's all three, actually.

01:59:34.000 What does it say?

01:59:35.000 The thing that popped up is the most common way to acquire E. coli infection is by eating contaminated.

01:59:40.000 Ground beef, unpasteurized milk, fresh produce.

01:59:43.000 And that fresh produce means not cooked.

01:59:45.000 So if you get broccoli or...

01:59:47.000 Yeah, you have like a...

01:59:47.000 Yeah, just spinach.

01:59:48.000 You're supposed to cook spinach.

01:59:49.000 Celery.

01:59:50.000 That's the problem with romaine lettuce, right?

01:59:52.000 Because romaine is... 1.00

01:59:53.000 Nobody ever cooks that stupid fucking shitty lettuce. 1.00

01:59:56.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:59:57.000 If the world had no romaine lettuce, do you think you'd be okay? 1.00

02:00:00.000 I think I'd be fine, bitch. 1.00

02:00:00.000 My dad calls it the hard lettuce. 1.00

02:00:02.000 He's like, I don't want that hard lettuce.

02:00:03.000 Give me the soft.

02:00:04.000 Give me the soft lettuce.

02:00:06.000 Iceberg is just a joke.

02:00:07.000 It's just room for meat. 0.99

02:00:09.000 I could be putting meat in my stomach instead of that shitty-ass white, clear lettuce. 0.99

02:00:15.000 Listen, I would say to you, Joe Rogan, vegan, you're a very handsome man. 0.99

02:00:21.000 You seem healthy. 1.00

02:00:23.000 Healthy as fuck. 0.99

02:00:24.000 You have an organic garden in your backyard? 1.00

02:00:25.000 No.

02:00:27.000 No.

02:00:27.000 I got some shit I grow.

02:00:29.000 Oh, okay. 1.00

02:00:29.000 A little bit. 1.00

02:00:30.000 A little bit?

02:00:30.000 Not a lot.

02:00:31.000 I get a lot of them from the store, to be honest with you.

02:00:34.000 Me too.

02:00:35.000 Me too.

02:00:36.000 But I don't buy meat from the store.

02:00:38.000 Like, I get to opt out of Factory Farm because I have a lot of wild game stuff in my house.

02:00:42.000 I have definitely still bought meat from the store.

02:00:45.000 I buy way less of it, and I eat meat almost every day.

02:00:48.000 Yeah.

02:00:49.000 I buy way less, but I'll still go to a restaurant and order steak.

02:00:52.000 Yeah.

02:00:52.000 I feel like this is something that people probably heard before, but it's like the feeling of eating while game eat is just different.

02:00:57.000 It's way different.

02:00:59.000 It tastes different.

02:01:00.000 It's better for you.

02:01:01.000 It feels different.

02:01:02.000 It feels different for my body.

02:01:04.000 Yeah.

02:01:04.000 You know?

02:01:05.000 I mean, I have...

02:01:06.000 I remember watching this thing about Ted Nugent once. 0.97

02:01:09.000 I was like, how's that guy got so much fucking energy? 0.96

02:01:11.000 I mean, he's like 65 years old at the time. 0.99

02:01:13.000 Spirit of the wild.

02:01:14.000 Well, he's eating deer every day, all day.

02:01:17.000 I mean, is it love or hate that guy?

02:01:20.000 There's a lot of power to his diet.

02:01:23.000 He's a good guy.

02:01:24.000 You get to know him.

02:01:25.000 He really is.

02:01:26.000 People are saying to me, like, how could you have Ted Nugent on the podcast?

02:01:29.000 I love him.

02:01:30.000 How about that?

02:01:32.000 Does he say things that I agree with 100% of the time?

02:01:34.000 No. 0.99

02:01:34.000 If you've ever sat and talked to Uncle Ted, which, you know, shit, I worked at the NRA for a while. 0.99

02:01:38.000 I used to get assigned to the Ted Nugent talk. 0.97

02:01:42.000 That he gave at the NRA annual meetings.

02:01:44.000 I was a writer for the NRA and worked for the digital websites.

02:01:49.000 And I would get assigned to the Ted Nugent seminar at the NRA annual meetings.

02:01:54.000 I would go and sit in the back with Ted and he would go, brother.

02:01:58.000 Yeah, he gets crazy.

02:02:00.000 He's not fake.

02:02:01.000 He ain't faking that.

02:02:02.000 That ain't something he just puts on for the cameras.

02:02:04.000 That's Ted.

02:02:05.000 But he is smart, man.

02:02:07.000 As you found out on that podcast, which I thought was amazing, that dude...

02:02:13.000 As sharp as they come.

02:02:14.000 You know what also?

02:02:15.000 He's reasonable and open to new information.

02:02:17.000 You don't want to think I turned him on to?

02:02:18.000 Yes.

02:02:18.000 I turned him on to marijuana.

02:02:19.000 Yeah, you did.

02:02:20.000 Okay?

02:02:21.000 First of all, he's using CBD on a regular basis. 0.99

02:02:23.000 In fact, if you go to Ted Nugent Official, go to his fucking Instagram. 0.98

02:02:28.000 He was advertising Jombo CBD that I hooked him up with. 0.99

02:02:33.000 Yeah, man.

02:02:33.000 He was having some serious knee pains.

02:02:35.000 He's had a...

02:02:36.000 He was telling me about his days of rock and roll, jumping off of amplifiers, and he destroyed his meniscus.

02:02:41.000 His knees are shot.

02:02:42.000 I ran into him three years ago at a concert and went backstage, and we were chatting, and he had huge ice packs on each one of his knees, and he had just had surgery on one.

02:02:52.000 I don't know what the surgery was for, but he was clearly in pain, and he just looked run down.

02:02:59.000 But then we went out in the crowd, he came on stage, and he looked like a 25-year-old rock guy.

02:03:03.000 Yeah.

02:03:04.000 He's a hard-working man.

02:03:07.000 Yeah.

02:03:07.000 I mean, when the time comes and the lights are on...

02:03:10.000 That guy goes after it.

02:03:11.000 And people are like, so you support the racist things you said?

02:03:15.000 No, unfortunate. 0.98

02:03:16.000 Whatever the fuck he said that you didn't like, that either he shouldn't have said, or maybe you didn't understand what he meant, or maybe it's out of context. 0.98

02:03:25.000 Anything that hurts anybody's feeling, unfortunate, and I don't support it. 0.99

02:03:28.000 But guess what?

02:03:30.000 We all have unfortunate things about us. 1.00

02:03:32.000 That's just a fact of being a fucking human being. 0.99

02:03:35.000 And one of the parts... 0.98

02:03:36.000 One of the things that we're doing when we're screaming out and calling out someone and we want someone deplatformed and dismissed and never to be heard from again, part of us are worried that that's going to happen to us.

02:03:49.000 We're worried that we would ever exhibit that sort of reprehensible behavior or language, and we want to put a stop to it in ourselves, in other people.

02:03:59.000 We want to eliminate it from our society and culture.

02:04:02.000 We want to do it harshly and ruthlessly, and we're terrified that it's going to be done to us.

02:04:06.000 Yeah. 0.92

02:04:06.000 And there's a lot of people that make some fucking really terrible mistakes. 0.92

02:04:10.000 And I think there's got to be some sort of a path to redemption. 0.97

02:04:15.000 I really believe that.

02:04:16.000 Always.

02:04:17.000 Because I meet in hunting.

02:04:19.000 I certainly don't meet the caliber of folks that you have in this room.

02:04:22.000 But I meet these people in hunting and I run around in these circles.

02:04:26.000 And people are saying, this person thinks this.

02:04:29.000 And have you seen that Instagram post?

02:04:30.000 I don't believe in that.

02:04:31.000 And knocking people down.

02:04:32.000 Yeah.

02:04:34.000 And I just think, I know that person.

02:04:36.000 That's a good person.

02:04:38.000 And maybe he or she is not depicting this in the way that you like it in this instance.

02:04:44.000 But that's a good, well-meaning person.

02:04:47.000 People are more than capable of mistakes, and we should be more than capable of allowing them redemption and forgiveness.

02:04:56.000 Because we should want the same thing.

02:04:57.000 Yeah.

02:05:12.000 A little bit of right brain.

02:05:14.000 A little bit of right brain.

02:05:15.000 My brain was going.

02:05:16.000 Yeah.

02:05:17.000 I apologize for that thing.

02:05:19.000 And it's not...

02:05:20.000 That doesn't define me because that's a very scary and slippery slope to get down.

02:05:25.000 It's like one moment in your life can't define you.

02:05:27.000 It's also something that's really...

02:05:29.000 It seems way more recent.

02:05:31.000 This idea that you want someone to never be heard from again.

02:05:35.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:05:35.000 They fucked up and they should never be heard from again. 1.00

02:05:37.000 And also, I think, and this is my own bias, I think it's a product of a shitty way of distributing information that has existed all of our lives until recently. 1.00

02:05:48.000 And I feel like the long-form conversation...

02:05:51.000 It's the only way to get to know somebody.

02:05:53.000 And when I sat down with Ted, after the three hours of talking, I'm like, I like this guy.

02:05:58.000 I like him.

02:05:59.000 Well, like you always say, I love when I get off of a good podcast, when there's an episode of The Hunting Collective and I sit down with somebody and they're like, oh my god, this person is what they just brought to my life in two hours.

02:06:10.000 I'm so fucking happy to have had that. 0.58

02:06:12.000 Yeah. 0.98

02:06:12.000 It's like a high you get. 0.98

02:06:14.000 Yeah.

02:06:14.000 It's a legitimate high because you say this all the time.

02:06:17.000 You don't get to sit down in your life and take two hours or three hours with somebody and just talk and exchange ideas and disagree and agree.

02:06:24.000 No distractions.

02:06:25.000 No distractions.

02:06:26.000 Yeah.

02:06:27.000 And what that gives you, and if folks haven't done that, that gives you something almost every time.

02:06:33.000 It's the only way you get to know people.

02:06:36.000 I don't mean just through podcasts.

02:06:39.000 I mean in your life.

02:06:40.000 If you don't have a podcast, sit down with someone and talk to them for several hours.

02:06:44.000 How often do you do that with your wife?

02:06:46.000 Nah, man. 1.00

02:06:47.000 It's fucking rare. 0.98

02:06:48.000 I have made a vested interest in long-form conversation, not just on the podcast, but in my life really over the last five or six years. 0.98

02:06:58.000 Yeah, who better than you to say that and be like, this has informed the way that I think, the way that it's impacted our society and our culture, this show?

02:07:05.000 It's changed the way I feel about people.

02:07:07.000 It's changed the way I feel about what communication is.

02:07:11.000 I have convenient perceptions of people.

02:07:13.000 I think we all do. 0.99

02:07:14.000 I conveniently go, oh, that guy's cool, oh, that guy's not, or this girl's an asshole, or whatever my convenient perceptions of people. 0.99

02:07:22.000 I find that a lot of them are based on these... 0.99

02:07:26.000 Brief interactions.

02:07:27.000 They're based on small amounts of information that's been distributed over long periods of time. 1.00

02:07:35.000 And maybe one time I caught someone when they were hammered and they were being an asshole. 0.99

02:07:39.000 Or maybe I was hammered and I was annoyed by them. 1.00

02:07:42.000 Or who knows what it was?

02:07:44.000 But to really understand who a person is, You have to sit down with them, I think, and just talk to them.

02:07:52.000 And you have to do it for a long time.

02:07:53.000 And it takes a long time.

02:07:55.000 And you also observe their actions and observe them when they're tested and observe them under duress.

02:08:01.000 And there's no way to get out of a long-form conversation.

02:08:04.000 You can't say, like, hey, I've got to go now.

02:08:06.000 I'm out of my depth.

02:08:08.000 All the things I said about myself, how great I was before this, now you're opening up this chasm where I don't know the things I said I knew.

02:08:15.000 But I could, for a 30-second or one-minute TV spot, I could train, I could read the lines, and I could come off like I look like I know what I'm talking about. 0.93

02:08:24.000 There's no way to escape this freaking thing. 0.55

02:08:26.000 I just thought about something. 0.99

02:08:28.000 How fucked up would a show be if you had just a husband and wife alone in a room with no one reacting to them? 0.99

02:08:37.000 Just them sitting down at a podcast. 1.00

02:08:41.000 And then that podcast gets broadcast to the world, and the whole world gets to watch their fucked up, dysfunctional relationship and how it plays out. 0.99

02:08:49.000 All the weirdness. 0.97

02:08:49.000 You know this weirdness that you see around people and their wives sometimes? 0.97

02:08:54.000 You have a couple of cocktails, the wife will say something really shitty and walk off the bathroom. 1.00

02:08:57.000 It's like a cup that spills over.

02:08:59.000 You're just keeping all of it in the cup, and then every once in a while you can't keep it in.

02:09:03.000 You can't keep it in. 0.98

02:09:04.000 And then there's this, like, the guy does something douchey, or the girl does something cunty, or whatever the fuck it is, and then you're like, whoa! 0.97

02:09:11.000 It first starts to trickle out in this passive-aggressive way, and then eventually, if you're there long enough, it just becomes aggressive. 0.99

02:09:19.000 If you're around them long enough, and that's one of the things about alcohol, it's so beautiful how that aggression just comes out of people.

02:09:27.000 Okay, I got...

02:09:28.000 You tell me if you like this.

02:09:29.000 You tell me if you like this idea.

02:09:31.000 I had this idea the other day.

02:09:33.000 That's basically what we're doing right now.

02:09:34.000 Is that I would do a show about ethics around, like, hunting and the outdoors and things.

02:09:38.000 But it would just be called Drunk Ethics, where I would just be drinking with people and having intelligent conversations that would increasingly get... 0.97

02:09:45.000 More and more fucking weird. 0.84

02:09:47.000 More and more fucking weird and open because I'm getting... 0.98

02:09:49.000 Yeah, that's a great idea. 0.97

02:09:51.000 I'm in favor of people drinking.

02:09:53.000 I don't mind drinking.

02:09:54.000 I'm drinking right now through this whole thing.

02:09:55.000 Yeah, we are too.

02:09:56.000 Other than the fact that I had to pee, like, it's been great.

02:09:59.000 Yeah, I'm not anti-drinking.

02:10:02.000 I think there's something to be gained from the release of inhibitions.

02:10:06.000 Yeah.

02:10:06.000 You know, there's something that's, I mean, there's a reason why it has such a strong place socially.

02:10:11.000 Well, plug for RyeBrain.

02:10:12.000 I mean, I'm releasing inhibitions but also increasing brain function at the same time.

02:10:18.000 Your brain's so confused.

02:10:19.000 Hashtag, it's like, what? 0.94

02:10:21.000 What?

02:10:21.000 Hashtag what?

02:10:22.000 Hashtag who?

02:10:23.000 Hashtag right brain.

02:10:25.000 I think that would be a wicked podcast, though.

02:10:28.000 Every week you get together a couple that's been fighting, and you get them to go over the way they feel about things.

02:10:34.000 Maybe have a therapist in the room. 1.00

02:10:35.000 Fuck the therapist. 1.00

02:10:37.000 Those people ruin everything. 1.00

02:10:38.000 That's true.

02:10:39.000 People who fight should just break up.

02:10:41.000 They just duke it out until they can't take it anymore and then just go with the way of Ben Affleck and J-Lo.

02:10:47.000 Just fall.

02:10:48.000 For a short period of time, you were in love.

02:10:50.000 Let it hit the rocks.

02:10:52.000 Move on, folks.

02:10:53.000 Don't you want to have a new person in your life?

02:10:55.000 Listen, do you have any marriage advice?

02:11:00.000 I've been married for coming up on five years.

02:11:03.000 I have a two-year-old.

02:11:04.000 My wife wants to have more children. 1.00

02:11:07.000 I just bought a new house, living in a brand new house, in a new town.

02:11:11.000 You got a lot of things going on that are pressure points, right?

02:11:14.000 Living the American dream a little bit.

02:11:16.000 I'm very happy with my family.

02:11:17.000 They're wonderful people.

02:11:18.000 I love them.

02:11:19.000 But like, I want to sustain this.

02:11:21.000 I have a great thing I'd like to put my arms around and keep.

02:11:23.000 It's like, ah, this is so great.

02:11:24.000 I don't want it to go away.

02:11:26.000 Well, just that attitude alone.

02:11:28.000 Your awareness of how special it is.

02:11:30.000 You know, you are doing the thing that everybody thinks of when they think about, like, fulfillment in life.

02:11:35.000 You're raising a child.

02:11:37.000 You're having children.

02:11:39.000 You're, you know, you're engaged in this intense relationship with another human being.

02:11:43.000 We've created a person.

02:11:44.000 All those things, those are giant, man.

02:11:47.000 Those are giant.

02:11:48.000 And also, you're engaged in an activity that 50% of the people fail at.

02:11:52.000 And then they fail at it. 0.99

02:11:54.000 It fucking goes down hard, man. 1.00

02:11:55.000 It goes down hard. 1.00

02:11:56.000 It's screaming and swearing and lawyers.

02:11:59.000 Of all the levels of failure in life, there's no failure more impactful than a divorce.

02:12:04.000 I've met...

02:12:05.000 I mean, I have so many friends that have been fired from jobs.

02:12:08.000 And it's not fun.

02:12:10.000 It's not good.

02:12:10.000 But they bounce back.

02:12:11.000 Yeah, you bounce back.

02:12:13.000 I've seen guys lose who they are from divorce.

02:12:17.000 I've seen it happen.

02:12:19.000 I've talked about this too many times, but it's a true story.

02:12:22.000 I have a friend who has been divorced to a woman for 14 years.

02:12:27.000 He's been married to a new one for 12. He has a family.

02:12:31.000 He has children with this new woman.

02:12:33.000 It's over with the old one.

02:12:35.000 He still pays her every year, and they have no children. 1.00

02:12:40.000 Because he fucked her so hard she can't work. 1.00

02:12:47.000 It's because it's crazy, because the laws are insane. 1.00

02:12:50.000 The laws are insane.

02:12:52.000 They don't make any sense.

02:12:54.000 We're not talking about a woman who is like 80 years old and can't work anymore either. 0.99

02:12:58.000 We're talking about a completely viable human being.

02:13:03.000 Dude, it's bananas.

02:13:05.000 It is bananas.

02:13:06.000 For that to flip, like you said, back to the I do thing.

02:13:09.000 When you say I do, there's never...

02:13:11.000 I did have a buddy who, when he said I do and they turned around, she looked mad and he looked scared.

02:13:16.000 Why was she mad?

02:13:18.000 You didn't say it right.

02:13:19.000 Yeah, you didn't say it.

02:13:20.000 You didn't say it right.

02:13:21.000 Why do you say that?

02:13:22.000 I want to be like a movie.

02:13:27.000 Yes.

02:13:28.000 And some people just don't.

02:13:29.000 They're not supposed to be together, but they think they should be with somebody.

02:13:31.000 Yeah. 0.98

02:13:31.000 So they find somebody and they talk that someone into doing something fucking insane. 0.98

02:13:36.000 Yeah. 0.97

02:13:36.000 Like signing a legal contract that says you're going to be together forever and ever till death. 0.97

02:13:40.000 But see, my problem is a very lucky problem that I've got something that, at least in its early years, it seems to be the right thing.

02:13:47.000 Right?

02:13:49.000 That's a hard sell.

02:13:50.000 Love you, honey.

02:13:51.000 Hope you ain't listening.

02:13:52.000 What are the odds she made it this far?

02:13:54.000 What are we, two hours and what, 30 minutes?

02:13:56.000 Yeah.

02:13:57.000 She's got a two-year-old by herself at home.

02:14:00.000 She ain't listening to that.

02:14:00.000 She checked out a long time ago.

02:14:03.000 But my challenge right now is I think about life.

02:14:05.000 I'm like, I got this wonderful, beautiful thing.

02:14:07.000 Yeah.

02:14:08.000 And I'm just, the stress is that I'm going to fuck it up.

02:14:10.000 Well, that is always a stress. 0.71

02:14:13.000 And I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of marriages fail is because of this intense pressure of the relationship.

02:14:19.000 You know, like there's a finality, and I understand the need for this finality, right?

02:14:23.000 There's a need for this contract and everything locked down.

02:14:26.000 If you're a woman, you can't, like when you're raising children... 1.00

02:14:30.000 You need help, right?

02:14:32.000 You need the man to be there to help you raise it, hopefully, but you also need financial help.

02:14:37.000 It's difficult.

02:14:38.000 It makes sense that a woman would want to lock things in like that. 1.00

02:14:45.000 It makes sense.

02:14:45.000 It's also a weird cultural tradition, right?

02:14:48.000 It's this weird thing that we have this law, like we bring the law involved into relationships.

02:14:55.000 And it's very strange, like legal contracts. 0.93

02:14:59.000 And some of them are fucking preposterous, right? 0.78

02:15:02.000 Like, sometimes you see a guy who looks like Rupert Murdoch, right? 1.00

02:15:06.000 And he's got this banging wife, and she's like 30 years old, and she's got big tits. 1.00

02:15:11.000 Or how about Harvey Weinstein and his wife? 1.00

02:15:13.000 She's in it for the right reasons.

02:15:14.000 And you're like, hey, son, I see what happened here.

02:15:17.000 But he sees it, too.

02:15:18.000 He can't be, but he's not blind.

02:15:19.000 Of course!

02:15:19.000 He sees it, too.

02:15:20.000 It was his whole business.

02:15:21.000 When they say I do, they're like, well, okay.

02:15:23.000 Well, this is where we are. 0.99

02:15:23.000 But you have a disgusting troglodyte-type... 0.99

02:15:27.000 You know, just gelatinous-looking, Jabba the Hutt-looking man, and a beautiful, hot young wife, because the guy's got fucking kajillions. 1.00

02:15:37.000 That's a normal thing. 0.92

02:15:38.000 Don't put up any pictures.

02:15:40.000 Don't put up any pictures.

02:15:45.000 But those folks there were both going into that knowing, like, hey, look, this isn't a traditional pairing.

02:15:50.000 Or who knows?

02:15:50.000 Maybe he was really sweet with her and that's all she needs.

02:15:53.000 Maybe she's just this rare soul that if he had $5 in his pocket, she'd be super happy with him.

02:16:00.000 Could be. 0.99

02:16:01.000 Fucking doubt it. 0.99

02:16:02.000 I would doubt it as well. 1.00

02:16:03.000 Like a motherfucker. 1.00

02:16:05.000 Fucking doubt it. 1.00

02:16:07.000 It's a preposterous union in the first place. 1.00

02:16:11.000 Listen, there's some relationships that you could define as legal prostitution. 0.99

02:16:16.000 They are absolutely legal prostitution. 1.00

02:16:19.000 A woman has made a determination that she will let this sloth shoot fluid into her vagina. 1.00

02:16:25.000 On an intermittent basis, if she could be bathed in diamonds and drive a Ferrari and live in a mansion. 1.00

02:16:31.000 This is a normal part of life.

02:16:33.000 Some people would say, and I might even say, as long as they're consenting and they're both aware that's going on, then...

02:16:38.000 Well, that would be a good argument for prostitution as well, though, wouldn't it?

02:16:41.000 It's a bit of a transaction, I guess.

02:16:42.000 I don't know.

02:16:43.000 It's a transaction.

02:16:43.000 It is a transaction.

02:16:44.000 Yeah, I guess when you look down at it, it's right that way.

02:16:46.000 I've always said, why is it okay to give someone a massage? 0.99

02:16:49.000 You give someone a massage, but you can't even jerk them off. 0.99

02:16:53.000 Like... 0.99

02:16:54.000 It's not legal.

02:16:56.000 That's weird. 0.99

02:16:57.000 The government decides who can touch your penis. 1.00

02:17:00.000 If the massage therapist said, hey, I really enjoy giving you a massage, let's go somewhere afterwards of my own free will and I'll jerk you off. 1.00

02:17:08.000 That'd be fine. 0.99

02:17:09.000 That's fine.

02:17:10.000 You're right.

02:17:11.000 You just can't do it right there.

02:17:11.000 But in the confines of the massage parlor.

02:17:13.000 Unless it's a public health issue.

02:17:15.000 Imagine if loads smelled like gunshots and you were... 0.99

02:17:20.000 You go to Massage Power, it smells like a shooting range, like, what the fuck is going on in this place? 1.00

02:17:25.000 This is a dirty massage place. 1.00

02:17:27.000 I'm out. 1.00

02:17:28.000 Pew, pew, pew!

02:17:36.000 Imagine if Lode smelled like sulfur.

02:17:38.000 Like, Jesus, the devil's coming out of you, boy. 0.98

02:17:41.000 The devil. 0.98

02:17:42.000 Purify that man! 0.98

02:17:43.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:17:44.000 I mean, there's a lot of laws that are ridiculous.

02:17:47.000 But there seems to be some sort of...

02:17:49.000 Someone here is the merit advice I'm looking for.

02:17:53.000 I got it.

02:17:54.000 Maybe it was what we were talking about earlier.

02:17:55.000 Maybe it's long form conversations.

02:17:57.000 Having long conversations with each other.

02:17:58.000 Having long respect, like respecting the fact that you can't get through some of this stuff in a very short time.

02:18:03.000 I've always said like I appreciate a nice road trip for that reason.

02:18:07.000 Yeah.

02:18:07.000 Because you can't.

02:18:08.000 Yeah.

02:18:08.000 You're hanging out with each other for long periods of time.

02:18:10.000 Yeah.

02:18:10.000 Like I'd much rather the stress of an airport with a kid and a wife is not, I'd much rather just drive it and take the time because you get this like connection.

02:18:18.000 If you can get the phones out of the way for the passengers, you just get this connection that you wouldn't get otherwise.

02:18:23.000 Yeah.

02:18:24.000 Doing things together that are unique, that helps.

02:18:27.000 Experiencing things together.

02:18:28.000 But also, you also have to both have the mindset that you enjoy each other's company and you want to make it work good.

02:18:34.000 Some people just don't, man.

02:18:36.000 And we've all seen that happen, right?

02:18:38.000 We've all seen relationships where the girl's just like, check, please. 1.00

02:18:42.000 And the guy's like, baby, I'm different.

02:18:44.000 But it's a 50, like you said, it's a 50-50 thing.

02:18:46.000 So, like, you have been married for quite some time, and we were talking about prior, when we were shooting our bows out there, like, there's things you've done to make it work.

02:18:55.000 Like, you like your wife, and she likes you, and it works. 0.51

02:18:58.000 And it's been working for a long time.

02:19:01.000 And, like, the percentages say that's, what'd you say, 50-50 is...

02:19:07.000 Chris Rock had a great joke about it.

02:19:09.000 He goes, 50% of the people leave. 0.88

02:19:11.000 He goes, but how many cowards just stay?

02:19:20.000 Look, relationships don't always work, but here's the thing. 1.00

02:19:23.000 You don't always know who the fuck you are. 0.99

02:19:26.000 And I'm a different person than I was five years ago. 1.00

02:19:30.000 I just am.

02:19:32.000 I hope I'm a better person.

02:19:34.000 I'm trying very hard to be a better person.

02:19:36.000 I certainly know more about myself.

02:19:38.000 I understand myself better.

02:19:39.000 This is a long, slow process.

02:19:42.000 I think we are all a work in progress.

02:19:44.000 That's right.

02:19:45.000 And not everybody engages in this work.

02:19:47.000 So you could be a person who's on this path of, you know, being present and trying to be kinder and trying to improve. 0.99

02:19:59.000 And then you have a spouse, male or female, that just shits on you. 0.99

02:20:03.000 And I've seen that too, man. 1.00

02:20:06.000 Me too. 1.00

02:20:08.000 Brutal, toxic relationships where they insult and say rude things around your friends to try to fuck with you. 1.00

02:20:15.000 And people get into these relationships where they genuinely hate each other. 1.00

02:20:20.000 But they're stuck together.

02:20:21.000 And what that does to children, too, because I told my dad, I wrote my dad this letter recently.

02:20:26.000 This is getting real deep.

02:20:28.000 Hour number three of the podcast.

02:20:29.000 We're getting real deep.

02:20:31.000 We're pro-nuance.

02:20:33.000 I sent it to my dad, but he won't listen to this book.

02:20:36.000 I wrote this letter that was like, listen man, because I had seen recently his developing relationship with my son.

02:20:45.000 It put this thought in my head that my relationship with my dad, his caring for me, the fact that he stayed with my mom and they developed this place for me to grow and nurture me and allow me to become a person in that environment.

02:21:01.000 It was a north star for me when I left that environment.

02:21:03.000 I never wondered What my path was going to be.

02:21:07.000 I always could look up and be like that bond that I developed with my family, their love for me is like the thing that I'm always, you know, I'm looking back to but also looking forward to because that's what defines me.

02:21:18.000 And regardless of what I do, I can always fall back on that, that my dad loves me, my mom loves me, I love them, and I grew up like with this strength of soul because I knew, I don't have, I have friends that came from the same place that I did, same town I did in Maryland, and That OD'd on heroin.

02:21:36.000 They lived in the same little suburbia community that I did.

02:21:40.000 They had parents that were the same age.

02:21:42.000 They went to the same high school.

02:21:43.000 They lived in the same environment.

02:21:45.000 They went down one way.

02:21:46.000 I went down another.

02:21:48.000 And I truly do feel that me going down that way is the way that my parents built this structure around me that was always about that bond and that love and the things that they provided.

02:21:58.000 That's very, very fortunate.

02:21:59.000 Yeah.

02:21:59.000 It's very fortunate.

02:22:01.000 Me being able to later on in life see how fortunate I was to have that drove me to not fail and to not let whatever other failures creep into my life around.

02:22:14.000 Maybe I'll take drugs.

02:22:15.000 I have a lot of friends.

02:22:17.000 A place I grew up in, Maryland, there's a lot of people that succumb to drugs and alcohol and things like that.

02:22:23.000 A lot of friends die.

02:22:24.000 Yeah, Baltimore's a rough spot.

02:22:25.000 Yeah, man.

02:22:27.000 I come from a town, call it Hagerstown, Maryland.

02:22:29.000 I say, like, come from a town.

02:22:31.000 But Western Maryland is kind of, it's a corridor for Interstate 70 and Interstate 81, and there's a lot of drugs there.

02:22:38.000 And there's a lot of my friends that are either in jail or no longer around.

02:22:42.000 A lot of successful ones, too, but that happened to me.

02:22:45.000 And I was able to look at that moment and be like, I came from the same place they did.

02:22:51.000 The same environment.

02:22:53.000 The same friends.

02:22:54.000 The same activities.

02:22:58.000 We all hunted and played sports.

02:23:00.000 We hung out together.

02:23:02.000 I went one way.

02:23:04.000 They went another way.

02:23:05.000 Do you attribute that entirely to your parents?

02:23:08.000 Or is it possible that it's who you chose to hang out with as well and the activities you engaged in?

02:23:15.000 Unfortunately...

02:23:16.000 I know people that were good parents that had kids that OD'd. 1.00

02:23:20.000 Yeah, and listen, I'm not trying to generalize in any way about any one situation.

02:23:26.000 My situation was that I could always, I felt like, and I told my dad at some point in my life where I said, I went to him and I was like maybe 20 or 19 and I said, I'm going to get all A's now.

02:23:36.000 I'm done fucking around.

02:23:38.000 Because I was a C-plus student. 1.00

02:23:39.000 I was the dumbest kid in the smart class through high school. 0.90

02:23:43.000 And there was a time in my life where I realized that I had to pay back what my parents and my grandparents and my family had done for me. 0.94

02:23:50.000 Because I knew that they'd given me something that not everybody had.

02:23:53.000 And I was like, I know that I have to pay this back.

02:23:57.000 And I've got to stop messing around now and go and do something.

02:24:00.000 That's interesting because they did a great job then.

02:24:04.000 Yeah.

02:24:04.000 Because sometimes what happens when people were raised with a giant safety net of love, they become unambitious.

02:24:13.000 They become little mama's boys. 0.92

02:24:14.000 I think I was close to that.

02:24:16.000 I was close to that a little bit.

02:24:17.000 Like, I'm going to community college and smoking a lot of weed.

02:24:21.000 But that could just be you just trying to have a good time.

02:24:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:24:24.000 No, but there was a time in my life, there was a legitimate time in my life where I said, And my dad, I don't remember it, but my dad remembers it.

02:24:30.000 Or I just came to him like, alright, it's over now.

02:24:33.000 It's time for me to just buckle down and get it done.

02:24:35.000 Well, the difference between a child that you're taking care of and then someone who has to be on their own is 10 years.

02:24:43.000 Right?

02:24:43.000 An 8-year-old, no one expects an 8-year-old to take care of themselves.

02:24:46.000 But an 18-year-old, time to get your shit together. 1.00

02:24:49.000 That's fucking quick. 1.00

02:24:50.000 That's a hard concept. 0.99

02:24:51.000 That's quick.

02:24:51.000 It's a hard concept.

02:24:52.000 It's...

02:24:55.000 Yeah.

02:25:15.000 We're like nothing I'd ever experienced in my life.

02:25:18.000 So I realized like, okay, to get really good at something, you have to be able to put in the kind of energy that most people are not willing to do.

02:25:25.000 And that's what separates you from them.

02:25:27.000 To find a discipline, put a massive amount of energy and focus into that discipline, and then be obsessed with it.

02:25:34.000 Then the rewards come. 0.92

02:25:35.000 If you analyze it correctly and pursue it with everything that you have, you're going to figure out how to get better as long as you don't get really fucked up along the way. 0.91

02:25:43.000 And there was a real possibility of that.

02:25:44.000 So what I realized early on, and very lucky, was that all these people that I saw around me that were engaging in all this really risky behavior, really crazy violence and drugs, what they were doing was looking for thrills.

02:25:59.000 That's what they were doing.

02:26:01.000 But they were looking for thrills in an easily accessible way.

02:26:05.000 It didn't require discipline.

02:26:07.000 It didn't require years and years of training and focus and commitment.

02:26:12.000 It didn't require that.

02:26:14.000 What I was doing was something, and I was just lucky that I found this thing.

02:26:17.000 I just didn't want to get bullied.

02:26:18.000 I didn't want to get picked on.

02:26:20.000 I was little.

02:26:21.000 I wasn't a big kid.

02:26:22.000 You were exerting some control over your life. 0.98

02:26:23.000 I was just like, I can't fucking do this. 0.98

02:26:27.000 I'm tired of being scared of people. 0.98

02:26:29.000 I'm tired of this dude giving me the fucking tough guy look, and I've got to go the other way because I'm scared. 0.97

02:26:35.000 I just didn't want to be that. 0.98

02:26:37.000 I didn't want to be that.

02:26:39.000 So that...

02:26:41.000 Carried on with me for my whole life.

02:26:43.000 Yeah, but I've seen so many people that didn't find a discipline and they just bounce around like a cork at sea forever. 0.99

02:26:50.000 Yeah, man It's one of the reasons why I push it so much I was like whatever the fuck it is that you can do that you like to do that's competitive like one of the things about competition is not just that you prove I'm the fucking man know what it is is hard and It's fucking... 0.98

02:27:04.000 Competition is one of the hardest things. 0.96

02:27:06.000 Because if someone's trying to do it and you're trying to do it, it's like, how much do you want it?

02:27:10.000 How much more do you want it than they want it?

02:27:12.000 That's right. 0.99

02:27:12.000 And that becomes this crazy fucking battle internally as well as externally. 0.99

02:27:18.000 Yeah, but you say all the time, say, pressure creates diamonds, right? 0.98

02:27:21.000 Yeah.

02:27:21.000 And in my case...

02:27:24.000 I realized that I didn't...

02:27:26.000 I realized somewhere in my life that I have the opportunity to...

02:27:29.000 There's not enough pressure, right?

02:27:32.000 I have this soft, like you said, soft thing to fall back on, which is a middle-class family.

02:27:37.000 They'll probably let me live there in their basement for as long as I want.

02:27:41.000 There's a lot of guys right now that can relate.

02:27:43.000 Yeah, but I had the opportunity to do that, but I think I just realized that Right.

02:27:58.000 Right.

02:28:12.000 And it was that, the stability of my family life.

02:28:16.000 And it wasn't perfect, but it was pretty good.

02:28:20.000 And rather than sink into that, I was like, I'm going to just push through that and use that as fuel.

02:28:25.000 Well, that's intelligence.

02:28:26.000 You know, I mean, you have an awareness.

02:28:28.000 You figured out what you can do and where this can go wrong.

02:28:33.000 And you recognized it and you decided to make some changes.

02:28:37.000 I'm sure it'll have ups and downs, but hunting is a thing that enriched my life, truly did.

02:28:42.000 And as much as it is problematic in the way that's presented in society, in the way that people see it when they look at it through a shallow lens...

02:28:55.000 I can say truly that it's enriched my life in ways I'll never be able to truly...

02:29:01.000 I met you through it.

02:29:03.000 I met a lot of people.

02:29:04.000 I've met a lot of good people through it.

02:29:07.000 This is what people...

02:29:08.000 Again, the problem is looking at it from the outside versus experiencing it.

02:29:13.000 The people that you're meeting, these are people that are doing something that's insanely difficult.

02:29:17.000 And it doesn't seem like it is for a lot of folks.

02:29:19.000 You look on the outside, what's so difficult?

02:29:22.000 Shooting an innocent animal...

02:29:24.000 Bow hunting, which is what you and I mostly do, is one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life. 1.00

02:29:29.000 And I've done a lot of difficult shit. 0.99

02:29:31.000 It's fucking difficult. 0.99

02:29:32.000 It's incredibly difficult. 0.99

02:29:33.000 And the people that you meet are not just disciplined, but they're in great shape.

02:29:37.000 You have to be.

02:29:38.000 Like, there's a physical exertion aspect to it that's completely ignored and misunderstood.

02:29:42.000 Or people are ignorant of it.

02:29:44.000 Not that it's ignored.

02:29:46.000 They just don't understand it.

02:29:47.000 It's almost like an athletic pursuit that sustains life.

02:29:52.000 It's very, very...

02:29:54.000 There's a reason why Cam Haynes is out there running marathons and ultramarathons.

02:29:57.000 He's probably running right now.

02:29:58.000 I mean, he's not just doing that because he enjoys fitness, and he most certainly does.

02:30:02.000 He's doing that because it helps him as a hunter.

02:30:04.000 It does.

02:30:04.000 And that, to a lot of people, they're like, wait, what are you talking about?

02:30:07.000 Like, that doesn't make any sense.

02:30:08.000 I've seen hunting.

02:30:10.000 Yeah, I mean, if you listen to this podcast and you never hunted, like, I would encourage you to go and find these people on the internet, on social medias and things, and understand that each one of them represents, in my opinion, a layer of hunting, right?

02:30:23.000 John Dudley represents, to me, I mean, he's a wonderful human being, but, like, at his core on social media, he represents the expert archer.

02:30:30.000 Yes.

02:30:30.000 That's a layer of hunting that you need to have if you're going to be successful.

02:30:33.000 Yeah.

02:30:33.000 Cam Haines represents the physically fit hunter, and that's a layer that you need to have if you're going to be ultimately successful.

02:30:41.000 Like Remy Warren represents the ultimate predator, being able to think about it like an animal does and move like an animal does.

02:30:48.000 That's a layer that you have to have if you're going to be ultimately successful.

02:30:51.000 Steve Rinella represents the great thinker, the great theorist.

02:30:56.000 All these are layers that you have to have at some level to be a good hunter, to be the best hunter.

02:31:03.000 To be successful consistently.

02:31:05.000 You have to know so much.

02:31:07.000 And one of the things when I got into it that was interesting that Steve said to me, he said, you're going to really like this because it has so many layers to it.

02:31:15.000 It's like there's a lot of room to learn and grow.

02:31:20.000 And you never can master it.

02:31:21.000 No.

02:31:22.000 You can't.

02:31:23.000 Especially bow hunting.

02:31:24.000 Yeah.

02:31:24.000 What are the possibilities you're going to run into the same scenario over and over and over and over again?

02:31:30.000 Never.

02:31:30.000 I mean, you get lucky a couple years in a row, but eventually you're going to run into some sort of a situation where the wind catches you or something goes wrong.

02:31:39.000 You step on a tree branch and snaps.

02:31:41.000 Yeah.

02:31:41.000 And it's like it teaches you accountability too because when you release an arrow, you can say whatever you want.

02:31:49.000 And I've had all these situations where an arrow has landed in places I didn't mean it to.

02:31:54.000 And it teaches you accountability.

02:31:57.000 It teaches you ultimate accountability because when you release that arrow, you can't go get it back.

02:32:02.000 And if it hits the animal in a place and wounds it and that animal suffers, it is on you.

02:32:06.000 100%.

02:32:06.000 And there is no way to get out of it.

02:32:08.000 There's no way to get out of that feeling.

02:32:09.000 And I've had, I don't know about you, but I've had like months, months, like six months of just like, I don't want to overstate it.

02:32:17.000 It's not hyperbolic, but like just really a lot of pain around like I did that.

02:32:21.000 And it was my fault.

02:32:22.000 I got lazy.

02:32:24.000 I was presumptive.

02:32:25.000 I got too confident.

02:32:27.000 I just screwed up in the moment.

02:32:28.000 I don't know what happened, but I've sent a very sharp object into the rump of a big elk and it ran off and never to be seen again. 0.99

02:32:36.000 Well, the consequences of that one motion, the one movement that's going to release that arrow are so significant that it fucks with your head. 0.95

02:32:44.000 It does. 0.83

02:32:44.000 That's what we were talking about. 0.83

02:32:46.000 We've talked about this many times with target panic.

02:32:48.000 That's what that is.

02:32:49.000 That's the realization of the anticipation of the moment and the consequences, the understanding of the potential negative consequences, and they're overwhelming, and they haunt you.

02:32:58.000 They do. 0.99

02:32:59.000 Don't fuck this up, don't fuck this up. 0.97

02:33:00.000 And you never should think, don't fuck this up. 0.97

02:33:02.000 Yeah. 0.79

02:33:03.000 And to me, there's massive parallels with martial arts, but also with playing pool. 0.94

02:33:09.000 Like, if you're about to shoot a ball and you say, don't miss, don't miss, don't miss, don't miss, you're gonna fucking miss. 0.97

02:33:14.000 Yeah. 0.97

02:33:15.000 That white ball ain't gonna go where you want. 0.78

02:33:17.000 But also, there's no part of pool that if the ball goes where you didn't intend it to, an animal gets maimed.

02:33:23.000 Right, right.

02:33:24.000 The consequences are so much higher.

02:33:26.000 So you can equate the consequences in your mind to be successful because at some level you have to, right?

02:33:30.000 It has to be an important motion for you to really care to do it right.

02:33:34.000 But there's real...

02:33:35.000 And that's why I say, like, one of the reasons why I continue to do what I do is because this thing is complex, and I see other people's confusion around it, and I appreciate their confusion, and I understand that it's hard to get.

02:33:51.000 And I desperately want to find ways to, like, to make it easier.

02:33:55.000 An analogy would be...

02:33:57.000 For pool.

02:33:58.000 Imagine if every time you played pool, you waited days and days for one shot.

02:34:05.000 And you didn't know what the shot would be, and sometimes you had to shoot it quickly.

02:34:08.000 And if you missed and didn't make the shot, an animal would scream out in agony and die a slow death, and you would be sick for months.

02:34:18.000 When you think about how difficult it is to perform under that moment, this intense pressure...

02:34:27.000 Of the one moment...

02:34:30.000 It's like nothing else.

02:34:31.000 It's stressing me out just thinking about it because it's real life, though.

02:34:35.000 I think Steve Rinello probably said it at some point, or you did, or somebody really smart did this.

02:34:40.000 It's a three-dimensional experience.

02:34:42.000 It includes riding a roller coaster is thrilling, but the third dimension isn't there because when you get off, nothing happened, really.

02:34:50.000 You got the thrill, but there was no consequence of the thrill.

02:34:53.000 Really, that's kind of the point of buying a ticket to ride on a roller coaster, getting a thrill without having to take part in anything substantial.

02:35:00.000 With hunting, there is thrills.

02:35:01.000 There's fun.

02:35:03.000 Everybody's seen videos of dudes hooping and hollering and hugging.

02:35:06.000 You and I have done it.

02:35:08.000 Around the killing of an animal.

02:35:09.000 It's not that...

02:35:10.000 Because I always ask myself some really key questions.

02:35:12.000 Like, why is killing gratifying?

02:35:14.000 Like, what's the answer to that?

02:35:17.000 Really, what's the answer to that?

02:35:19.000 And I was like, man, that's going to be hard to explain.

02:35:21.000 There's a bunch of things going on.

02:35:23.000 It's going to be hard to explain.

02:35:24.000 To someone who doesn't know what it is, one thing that's going on is you just accomplished something that's insanely hard to do and you're relieved that the animal died.

02:35:33.000 And that relief manifests itself in exuberance. 1.00

02:35:37.000 You high-five, you hug, you go, fuck yeah! 1.00

02:35:42.000 You're happy that it happened, that it died quickly. 1.00

02:35:46.000 That's a big part of it.

02:35:47.000 That is a part of it.

02:35:49.000 Yeah, and I made this post on social media yesterday around like...

02:35:52.000 Grip and grins.

02:35:53.000 Grip and grins, man.

02:35:54.000 Yeah, you're anti-grip and grin for a long time.

02:35:57.000 You gave a big sticking point.

02:35:58.000 It did.

02:35:59.000 Explain a grip and grin for the uneducated.

02:36:01.000 We were talking about...

02:36:02.000 I was talking about this, about we're going to try to write an article for TheMediator.com about it, but...

02:36:06.000 A grip and grin is there's, I mean, this goes back many, many years.

02:36:10.000 I mean, it goes back to Teddy Roosevelt.

02:36:12.000 It goes back to the turn of the century market hunters like the photos we showed earlier.

02:36:16.000 I mean, taking a photo with the thing you just killed is no new thing to us.

02:36:20.000 It's as old as photos.

02:36:21.000 As old as photos.

02:36:22.000 Grip and grin just means you're with the animal, you're gripping its antlers or gripping a part of the animal and you're smiling and you're happy that you did that.

02:36:32.000 What I think...

02:36:32.000 What I say about Gripping Grins is that it's been weaponized, right?

02:36:36.000 Everybody that's listening to this has likely seen...

02:36:39.000 The girl with the giraffe.

02:36:40.000 The girl with the giraffe.

02:36:41.000 The guy with the lion.

02:36:43.000 The other girl with the giraffe.

02:36:45.000 The guy with the baboons. 0.99

02:36:46.000 It's been weaponized.

02:36:48.000 And it's been weaponized to a point where it's the thing...

02:36:52.000 The first thing that somebody like, say, Ricky Gervais might...

02:36:56.000 He finds this thing online.

02:36:58.000 He eats meat, by the way.

02:36:59.000 He does?

02:36:59.000 Yeah.

02:37:01.000 How about that?

02:37:02.000 How about that?

02:37:03.000 Have you ever had him on here?

02:37:04.000 No, but I talked to him on Opie and Anthony.

02:37:06.000 He's a nice guy.

02:37:07.000 I remember listening to that.

02:37:08.000 He says he's fine with people hunting if they eat the meat.

02:37:10.000 Yeah, and it's like...

02:37:11.000 So we've weaponized the term trophy.

02:37:13.000 We've weaponized the Scripp and Grin thing and the overall... 0.92

02:37:20.000 I know that if hunting was a business, not a lot of people would buy stock in it.

02:37:25.000 There's less people doing it.

02:37:26.000 It's less relevant to society.

02:37:29.000 The weapon that a lot of folks are using that don't like it is this photo.

02:37:33.000 The photo depicts a person smiling next to or over top of a dead animal.

02:37:41.000 And so at its face, it absolutely says, I'm happy that there's a dead animal in front of me.

02:37:46.000 It's not enough information for such a significant moment.

02:37:49.000 So what I've said around the photo is it happened for a very long time, but then social media became a deal, right?

02:37:55.000 And during the 80s and 90s, Grip and Grins were like...

02:37:59.000 I remember going to my first trade shows as a kid, and people would have flip books of Grip and Grins.

02:38:07.000 Mm-hmm.

02:38:08.000 They would get them out and be like, you see what I killed this year?

02:38:10.000 Before cell phones or whatever, they would bring them out and be like, look at that.

02:38:12.000 Look at all the things I killed.

02:38:14.000 And it was like this communication between hunters that was legit.

02:38:19.000 I know what a gripping rain is.

02:38:21.000 I'm not questioning it.

02:38:22.000 But then social media becomes prevalent.

02:38:25.000 People start posting these photos.

02:38:27.000 To everyone where they can't control the messaging anymore.

02:38:30.000 And it's one of the easiest things, one of the most oxymoronic things to go pluck from hunting and be like, don't understand this. 0.99

02:38:37.000 This looks fucked up. 0.99

02:38:38.000 Let me apply that to trophy hunting and let me damn this person for this photo. 1.00

02:38:43.000 And so... 0.97

02:38:44.000 With that lady with the goat recently.

02:38:45.000 Yeah.

02:38:47.000 Invasive species on an island where they have to kill it.

02:38:50.000 It's killing all the native wildlife. 0.91

02:38:53.000 Yeah, but then later on they find that there's a photo of that young lady with a bloody dildo with goat blood on it. 0.79

02:39:00.000 Did you not hear about that part?

02:39:01.000 What?

02:39:02.000 Yeah, we're going to have to get that on the old Google machine.

02:39:04.000 What?

02:39:05.000 Yeah, that's a tough subject for three hours in, but that happened.

02:39:09.000 What do you mean?

02:39:11.000 Just pull it up.

02:39:12.000 Something's hard for me to explain.

02:39:13.000 There was like some sort of bachelorette party or something, and that young lady, the same lady that was in the Skyland, correct?

02:39:19.000 Yes. 0.95

02:39:20.000 With the goat was also photographed with a bloody dildo.

02:39:26.000 Goat blood?

02:39:27.000 I believe so.

02:39:30.000 What was she trying to say?

02:39:32.000 I don't know.

02:39:33.000 Maybe she's just partying. 0.94

02:39:34.000 She could have been just having a great time. 0.99

02:39:36.000 What if there's a photo with me with a bloody dildo? 0.99

02:39:38.000 You would go, figures. 1.00

02:39:40.000 That goddamn Rogan. 1.00

02:39:42.000 Look at that jambo. 1.00

02:39:43.000 What the fuck's he doing with that dildo? 1.00

02:39:45.000 He's had too much right brain. 1.00

02:39:46.000 I hope I'm right about that.

02:39:47.000 I hope I didn't just make that up.

02:39:48.000 No, but we've discussed that internally a bunch.

02:39:53.000 Jamie, hit me up, Jamie.

02:39:55.000 What's up?

02:39:57.000 It's like the fist thing.

02:40:00.000 It doesn't look like a...

02:40:01.000 It's not like a dildo like you're thinking of. 0.75

02:40:02.000 Oh, it's like a... 0.98

02:40:03.000 It's a fist dildo. 0.97

02:40:04.000 Is it a... 0.98

02:40:04.000 Which is even more... 0.98

02:40:06.000 Are you not going to show us?

02:40:06.000 Well, yeah, I can show you guys.

02:40:08.000 Keeping it to himself.

02:40:10.000 There you go.

02:40:10.000 Okay.

02:40:10.000 That.

02:40:11.000 That's the thing.

02:40:12.000 Okay.

02:40:13.000 Oh, it's just...

02:40:14.000 It's a fist.

02:40:15.000 Is that for fisting?

02:40:17.000 I... This says, Hunter and Hunter blah, blah, blah, slam for photo with dead sheep bloody sex toy. 1.00

02:40:23.000 Fox News. 1.00

02:40:25.000 Okay.

02:40:25.000 That's Fox News.

02:40:27.000 Huh.

02:40:28.000 So that's recently.

02:40:30.000 Is this recent?

02:40:31.000 When is this?

02:40:32.000 Yeah, this is...

02:40:32.000 November 21st.

02:40:34.000 Oh, really recent.

02:40:35.000 So it's quite a few months after the initial image was published.

02:40:39.000 So this is a different animal she's with.

02:40:41.000 It looks like some...

02:40:42.000 Yeah, what she's got there looks like an ibex, and then she's got what looks like a mouflon. 0.98

02:40:47.000 Another dead animal on British soil. 0.99

02:40:51.000 She posed with a sex toy and the dead sheep. 0.98

02:40:54.000 Well, maybe there's some context to it. 0.95

02:40:57.000 I mean, maybe it was a...

02:40:58.000 I don't, like I said, I don't...

02:40:59.000 Maybe she lost a bet. 0.91

02:41:01.000 It doesn't look good, let's just say that.

02:41:03.000 Yeah. 0.66

02:41:03.000 Maybe her husband said, listen, if you do shoot one, this is what you have to do. 0.66

02:41:10.000 Maybe there was a bet.

02:41:11.000 I don't know any of the details around, but that photo is just like the baboon one. 0.99

02:41:15.000 It just don't look good.

02:41:16.000 What are you saying, Jamie?

02:41:17.000 I'll let you read it.

02:41:18.000 Okay.

02:41:19.000 It says, Gearing said that the marital aide had been given as a birthday present, but said, Swiftlick, how do you say her name?

02:41:27.000 Swiftlick.

02:41:28.000 Swiftlick was rude and arrogant throughout the trip.

02:41:31.000 Who's Gearing? 0.98

02:41:32.000 I think...

02:41:34.000 Must have been her international host, maybe.

02:41:38.000 She was a British hunter.

02:41:39.000 She was on the trip with her.

02:41:40.000 Oh, she was on the trip with her.

02:41:41.000 She was one of the women on the trip.

02:41:42.000 Okay.

02:41:43.000 Okay.

02:41:43.000 Well, that sounds like two chicks didn't get along.

02:41:45.000 I'd like to hear her side of it.

02:41:46.000 It was a bit of fun during the party.

02:41:49.000 Marital aid. 0.51

02:41:50.000 Okay, the marital aid had been given as a birthday present.

02:41:53.000 I have no idea why I was brought out the following day on the hunt.

02:41:56.000 It was an appalling thing to do, a complete show of disrespect to the animal she has just killed.

02:42:01.000 Well, the animal doesn't know because it was dead.

02:42:04.000 And I don't...

02:42:06.000 I mean, it's weird, but I don't...

02:42:10.000 You know, I don't know if I'm horrified by it.

02:42:12.000 I'm not friends with her any longer.

02:42:15.000 In fact, she's the reason I left the hunt early because I was so against what she stood for and her moral.

02:42:20.000 Okay.

02:42:21.000 I don't want to read this.

02:42:22.000 Yeah.

02:42:22.000 I don't know.

02:42:23.000 Chicks. 1.00

02:42:25.000 Chicks, man. 1.00

02:42:25.000 Ladies, I love you. 1.00

02:42:26.000 I don't know that person.

02:42:27.000 You get cunty with each other.

02:42:29.000 I've never met that person.

02:42:30.000 I don't know them, but that happens.

02:42:32.000 This is just an example of the weaponizing of these situations where somebody's...

02:42:38.000 Bloody dildos get pulled out and everybody gets upset.

02:42:41.000 Every time.

02:42:42.000 I did not know about that, though.

02:42:43.000 Yeah.

02:42:45.000 It's interesting.

02:42:46.000 Well, that's one...

02:42:47.000 One example, but that's what ends up happening around these images.

02:42:50.000 Now, when I posted this thing the other day, half people would say, like, don't stop doing what you're doing if you feel it's right and you feel...

02:42:58.000 Respectful as a hunter and you're telling the entire story and part of that story is to sit behind the animal and smile and signify how great you feel about it, then go for it.

02:43:07.000 Exactly.

02:43:08.000 That's what you should be doing.

02:43:09.000 Don't let someone else change your behavior.

02:43:11.000 The other side of things is like every hunter has a chance to impact somebody that doesn't go hunting.

02:43:16.000 Every hunter, there's 11 million hunters, they have a chance to impact the millions and millions of folks who aren't exposed to hunting at any point in their lives.

02:43:26.000 And so, I can really see both things, but for me, it's an issue of, if I want hunting to continue in the way that it does, and I want my social media privileges to make hunting better, I would probably choose not to put that out there unless it was in the context I felt very comfortable with.

02:43:44.000 That's very fair.

02:43:45.000 That's not just fair, it's honest, and it makes sense.

02:43:50.000 But obviously, if you had those photos and you showed them to someone like me who's hunted, it wouldn't bother me at all.

02:43:54.000 Be like, oh, you got a nice deer.

02:43:56.000 Congratulations.

02:43:56.000 It's all about context.

02:43:57.000 It's all like, I could slide it across the table to you or text it to you and you would say, cool, man.

02:44:01.000 Congratulations.

02:44:02.000 You and I have been on several hunts.

02:44:04.000 Yeah.

02:44:04.000 We know what it's like.

02:44:06.000 We...

02:44:07.000 We don't have to explain what it is.

02:44:09.000 The problem is it's like fast food for an idea.

02:44:13.000 It's a tiny little thing.

02:44:15.000 It's not real.

02:44:16.000 You're not getting the full context of where the food came from or how the animal was raised and how it was killed and turned into a burger.

02:44:23.000 You're just getting the burger real quick.

02:44:24.000 And this is like what you're getting with the photo.

02:44:25.000 You're just getting a photo.

02:44:26.000 You're not getting the full context of the experience that led up to you shooting this deer that might be like this 200-inch mule deer that's the deer of a lifetime.

02:44:34.000 You have this giant smile on your face because you can't believe you outwitted this old monarch of the forest and put an arrow in his ribcage.

02:44:43.000 For sure.

02:44:43.000 And I think that that's a totally legitimate way to express your hunting.

02:44:49.000 For me, if you were to ask me today, I would say I would probably not give anybody the chance to misrepresent my shit. 0.98

02:44:56.000 I don't put pictures like that up anymore. 0.99

02:44:58.000 You don't.

02:44:58.000 For the same reason.

02:44:59.000 But I have in the past.

02:45:01.000 But I put a lot of elk meat up.

02:45:02.000 Ooh, I put a lot up.

02:45:03.000 That's for me.

02:45:04.000 It's like, I put the meat up.

02:45:06.000 I put all the whole story up.

02:45:07.000 But if I was to say, like, I always, I said in the very beginning of the whole me not liking grip and grins conversation, I said, if someone had said, Ben, can you give that up for the betterment of hunting?

02:45:17.000 Like, could you just give that one thing up that's traditionally, it's been done for decades, where a guy kills a thing and sits in front of it.

02:45:24.000 Would you be willing to give that up if, for some way, shape, or form, even if you didn't agree with it, it made for a better hunter-to-non-hunter relationship? 0.99

02:45:35.000 I'd be like, fuck yeah, man. 0.98

02:45:36.000 I'm down for that. 0.97

02:45:37.000 And so I think that's what the conversation is now, is trying to determine, is that the best thing ever?

02:45:44.000 Or not.

02:45:45.000 I'm not sure I have the answer to that.

02:45:46.000 I think for anybody who's listened to this three-hour conversation and sort of gets an understanding of where we're coming from, they'll appreciate that there's a lot of thought involved here.

02:45:54.000 For anybody that sees that photograph of you smiling with a dead bear, they're not going to appreciate that.

02:45:59.000 It's going to be real quick, and they're going to have this...

02:46:01.000 How many people are willing to sit here and listen to this whole conversation to get an understanding, rather, of how your mind works and how you think about things?

02:46:11.000 Not nearly as many... 1.00

02:46:12.000 We'll look at a photo and go, that guy's a cunt. 1.00

02:46:15.000 And that's the Ricky Gervais tactic, right? 1.00

02:46:18.000 As much as I do enjoy Ricky's comedy, and when he looks at these things, first of all, that fucking giraffe one, that giraffe one was super complicated. 0.97

02:46:28.000 And Glenn Greenwald and all these other people, they sicced a lot of people on that lady. 1.00

02:46:32.000 That giraffe had to be killed.

02:46:34.000 That giraffe apparently had killed at least two or three young bulls. 0.56

02:46:38.000 And it was a non-viable male.

02:46:40.000 And they made it out like it was this rare giraffe.

02:46:42.000 It's rare because it's old.

02:46:44.000 It was dark.

02:46:45.000 Because the darker ones are older ones.

02:46:47.000 We always get down these rabbit holes.

02:46:49.000 Somebody says, I'm mad about this photo. 0.99

02:46:51.000 And the next thing we know, we're debating the age of a fucking single giraffe. 0.99

02:46:54.000 It matters. 0.98

02:46:55.000 It does matter, but it doesn't matter to the extent...

02:46:58.000 That they try to make it so.

02:47:00.000 They don't understand what they're looking at.

02:47:02.000 But they are looking at something that they find displeasing.

02:47:05.000 Yes.

02:47:05.000 And you're right about that.

02:47:07.000 And I find it displeasing as well.

02:47:09.000 When I see that, I'm like, listen, I'm not a giraffe hunter.

02:47:11.000 I've never been to that part of Africa.

02:47:13.000 I don't know that person.

02:47:14.000 But just to look at that, I feel the same way as everyone else.

02:47:17.000 Because giraffes are awesome.

02:47:18.000 The thing about giraffes, I had a bit about them in my act.

02:47:21.000 They're the only animal that looks fine with being in the zoo.

02:47:25.000 Yeah.

02:47:25.000 They're like, another day with no lions.

02:47:27.000 And they're just strolling around.

02:47:30.000 Babies feed giraffes. 0.99

02:47:31.000 My fucking daughter, when she was two, I held her up and she had a piece of leaf and she put it out there and the giraffe comes over. 1.00

02:47:37.000 It's the only wild animal that they let babies feed. 1.00

02:47:40.000 They don't let little kids feed polar bears. 1.00

02:47:43.000 There's a fucking reason that the polar bears are like, fuck your lettuce. 1.00

02:47:46.000 The polar bear would be dining on fingers. 1.00

02:47:47.000 Yeah, give me your arm. 0.90

02:47:49.000 Yeah, man.

02:47:49.000 So, I get...

02:47:52.000 You're right.

02:47:52.000 No, you're right.

02:47:53.000 I try.

02:47:54.000 It makes sense.

02:47:55.000 I want it to be better.

02:47:56.000 I want the conversation between, not between Ricky Gervais. 1.00

02:47:59.000 Ricky Gervais acts like an asshole in this context. 1.00

02:48:03.000 He enjoys getting angry at people, but in his defense, the stereotypical hunter that is in his mind, what he's fighting against, is an asshole. 1.00

02:48:14.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:48:15.000 Yeah, and I would agree.

02:48:16.000 And I would be like, dude, I agree with you.

02:48:17.000 Most hunters agree with you. 0.95

02:48:18.000 Some fat guy wants to fly to Africa and shoot an elephant and is not even going to eat it. 0.96

02:48:23.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:48:23.000 And he just wants it because he's getting the big eight. 0.99

02:48:26.000 There's a lot of weird shit about that. 0.98

02:48:28.000 Well, yeah, the problem I have with that is like... 0.99

02:48:30.000 Specifically calling out that single person or smaller group subset of hunters that you don't agree with to paint the entire group.

02:48:39.000 They think that that's the only way they can get people to stop.

02:48:43.000 They think that what they've done with Cecil, look, they enacted real change.

02:48:47.000 Yeah, there's been real change around a lot of this stuff.

02:48:49.000 Yeah.

02:48:49.000 With Cecil, they enacted real change, but unfortunately, a lot of it has been negative.

02:48:53.000 What people don't understand is how much it costs the people that live there.

02:48:58.000 And about these hunting concessions get closed down, and then these animals go wild, and then what happens is poachers just take over, and a lot of the animals get decimated the same way they did in the United States before market hunting was outlawed.

02:49:10.000 Well, you look at what a concession is, right?

02:49:13.000 A concession, and this happened, I want to say it happened in like the late 70s and early 80s in Africa, where there was, you know, especially antelope and African antelope and all these other species that were there.

02:49:23.000 They were not at the brink of extinction, but they were suffering.

02:49:27.000 A concession is essentially a bunch of landowners get together and be like, let's put a fence around our stuff to keep poachers out and keep the animals in.

02:49:36.000 In Africa, especially South Africa, when concessions became prevalent, wildlife populations skyrocketed.

02:49:43.000 You know, tripled, doubled, times ten.

02:49:46.000 Hundreds of thousands of antelope that weren't there before.

02:49:48.000 Unfortunately, because that's the only way they could have value.

02:49:51.000 They had value because they had monetary value.

02:49:54.000 Yeah.

02:49:54.000 And I'm not...

02:49:55.000 I'm conflicted about that point.

02:49:57.000 Me too, yeah.

02:49:58.000 I'm conflicted about it.

02:49:58.000 It's like a thing that worked.

02:50:01.000 But is that the way?

02:50:02.000 I don't know.

02:50:03.000 I've been over there.

02:50:04.000 I'll probably never go back over there.

02:50:07.000 Because there's just so many things in North America I'd like to pursue.

02:50:10.000 But it's something I was involved with.

02:50:13.000 I went and did and I realized, hey, look.

02:50:16.000 This is way too complicated.

02:50:18.000 And there's way too much American influence based on the money we bring over there that isn't rooted in exactly what's good for Africa.

02:50:27.000 So I think African hunting is valuable.

02:50:31.000 You can paint that picture all day long.

02:50:34.000 They can be like, it's valuable, it's valuable for these reasons, and nobody can really argue the end result of the thing.

02:50:41.000 Nobody can argue the end result because it's been so much more effective than just conservation based on donations.

02:50:47.000 And that's what people don't understand that argue against it.

02:50:50.000 You're wrong.

02:50:51.000 When it comes to the numbers, you're wrong.

02:50:54.000 You would like to think that people hunting zebras don't help.

02:50:58.000 But they do.

02:50:59.000 Yeah.

02:50:59.000 They help way more than people that go over there to take photographs.

02:51:02.000 Yeah.

02:51:02.000 So am I willing to say, like, get rid of that so I can feel better about hunting?

02:51:06.000 No. 1.00

02:51:06.000 Fuck no. 1.00

02:51:07.000 Because I want there to be more animals. 1.00

02:51:09.000 I mean, the number is so different in the amount of money they contribute.

02:51:13.000 This is where people have to understand.

02:51:14.000 Because they'll throw some numbers at you.

02:51:16.000 Like, you know, 5,000 people go to safaris.

02:51:19.000 Only 2,000 people hunt.

02:51:21.000 Yeah, sure.

02:51:22.000 But the 2,000 people that hunt... 0.99

02:51:24.000 They hunt and they spend way more fucking money. 1.00

02:51:26.000 It costs a lot of money to shoot a lion. 1.00

02:51:30.000 It costs like $50,000.

02:51:31.000 As much as you find lion hunting distasteful, you have to understand that if you remove it, it's like when you take a dictator out and then you have like a power vacuum.

02:51:41.000 How do you replace it?

02:51:42.000 You gotta replace it.

02:51:43.000 Well, and it's just like, there are just some on-the-ground things that happen too around, look, if you want to do wildlife viewing, you gotta cut roads.

02:51:53.000 If you want to do wildlife viewing, people are going to pay less.

02:51:56.000 So it means you have to have more people encroaching on these places where these wild animals are.

02:52:01.000 You have to make parks where humans can't go. 0.99

02:52:04.000 And you have to be prepared when humans get attacked by animals, which is going to fucking happen. 0.90

02:52:08.000 And so it's never as simple as it seems. 0.97

02:52:11.000 It is as simple as it seems to say, like, the numbers say that African trophy hunting is benefiting the wildlife.

02:52:17.000 Now, is it benefiting in the way that everybody thinks is best?

02:52:20.000 That's debatable.

02:52:21.000 But you can't sit here and say, like, if we end this today, there'll be more game.

02:52:26.000 It's probably the reverse.

02:52:28.000 It is the reverse.

02:52:29.000 It's probably the reverse.

02:52:31.000 It'll hurt your feelings, but it's the reverse.

02:52:33.000 What's going on right now in Africa with the exact area that Cecil the lion happened in is that they had to call 200 lions.

02:52:42.000 They had to shoot 200 lions, which means they had to pay someone to go and shoot these lions because their population had gotten so high they were decimating the ungulate population.

02:52:51.000 So all the antelope and all the different animals that the lions were hunting, they were destroying them.

02:52:57.000 Because they have to eat a lot, man.

02:52:58.000 But you're a 600-pound cat?

02:53:00.000 And you're a meat processor on four legs, bro.

02:53:04.000 You can't be like, hey, listen, man.

02:53:06.000 Listen.

02:53:07.000 Just lay off for a couple of weeks.

02:53:09.000 Listen.

02:53:10.000 I know they're delicious.

02:53:13.000 I know you really like to eat them.

02:53:15.000 Also, you know, they were just breeding unchecked.

02:53:19.000 Yeah.

02:53:20.000 And then their populations quickly got to a very unmanageable number.

02:53:25.000 Well, it seems... 0.99

02:53:26.000 It sucks. 0.99

02:53:26.000 It's never as simple as it seems. 0.99

02:53:29.000 Mountain lions in California, Washington, and Oregon, like this year in Oregon and Washington, two people were killed, one in each state.

02:53:37.000 That hasn't happened in 100 years.

02:53:39.000 You know, I've talked to a lot of people that say that's an anomaly, but it happened nonetheless.

02:53:44.000 But it doesn't mean anything if it's an anomaly.

02:53:46.000 It's also a reality.

02:53:47.000 Yeah, it's something that happened.

02:53:49.000 Those are predators.

02:53:50.000 Yeah.

02:53:50.000 And they're big.

02:53:51.000 And they've killed, I think, 55 bears in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem this year.

02:53:56.000 Probably that number could be skewed in some way for me, but I think that's what I heard.

02:54:00.000 And that could be a lot of black bears, right, that invade into...

02:54:04.000 I think this was all...

02:54:07.000 Grizzly bears that had either been hit by cars or were nuisance or were getting around somebody's cattle that had been shot.

02:54:12.000 I think that's the number.

02:54:13.000 You'd have to look that up and confirm that I'm right about that because that's a pretty serious accusation if I'm wrong.

02:54:18.000 But, you know, that happens in that.

02:54:21.000 So there's no simple way to put it, man.

02:54:24.000 Well, it happens here with mountain lions.

02:54:26.000 I mean, mountain lion hunting is outlawed in California, but they kill the same amount of mountain lions.

02:54:31.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:54:31.000 And the way they kill them is they have to hire people, and they have to use public funds, these tax dollars, and they hire a guy with dogs to go catch these fucking cats and kill them. 0.99

02:54:41.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:54:42.000 I mean, hours ago, we talked about the North American model of wildlife conservation, but that's a thing.

02:54:49.000 It's not infallible, but it's pretty fucking close, in my opinion. 0.99

02:54:52.000 It's a very good system, and there's more stuff that we didn't cover, but shit, dude. 0.99

02:54:56.000 We're deep. 0.99

02:54:57.000 We're deep. 1.00

02:54:58.000 Three hours into this motherfucker. 1.00

02:54:59.000 How long, Jamie? 1.00

02:55:01.000 Three hours in.

02:55:02.000 It's a good Jerry.

02:55:04.000 It's a solid one.

02:55:05.000 It's a solid one. 1.00

02:55:06.000 Let's wrap this bitch up. 1.00

02:55:07.000 See ya. 0.99

02:55:08.000 Ben O'Brien, I'm glad we did this, my brother.

02:55:10.000 Always good talking to you, man.

02:55:11.000 I love you, too, man.

02:55:11.000 It's good to see you.

02:55:11.000 Great to see you.

02:55:12.000 You're the man.

02:55:13.000 Let's go play some Techno Hunt.

02:55:15.000 Yeah.

02:55:15.000 All right, everybody.

02:55:16.000 Bye.

02:55:17.000 Bye-bye.

02:55:17.000 See ya.

The Joe Rogan Experience - December 17, 2018

Joe Rogan Experience #1215 - Ben O'Brien

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript