Former Marine David Fravor talks about an alleged UFO sighting off the coast of Mexico in 2004. He talks about the events leading up to the incident, the aftermath, and the aftermath of the incident. He also talks about what he believes to be the most famous UFO sighting in the history of Ufology, the Blackhawk UFO incident. This episode is brought to you by Modern Mythology, a podcast produced by Popular Science and the Center for Naval Aviation Studies, a non-profit organization dedicated to debunking urban legends and debunking the urban legend that s been going on since before the dawn of contact with extraterrestrials. This episode was produced by Joe Earp and edited by Jeremy Dwyer. If you like conspiracy theories, this episode is not for you. Please don t listen to this episode if you don t want to be spooked by the subject matter, or if you are easily spooked and don't want to take the risk of getting spooked. Thank you for listening and share this with your friends and family. Don't forget to share it on your social media! and tag us on Anchor.fm/TheCastleCastle to let us know what you think of this episode and what you would like to see it on the next episode. We'll be looking into it in the comments section below. Thanks again for listening. Cheers, Joe and Jeremy -Your continued support is greatly appreciated. Cheers. - Your continued support of this podcast is so appreciated and appreciated. -Your support is so greatly appreciated and your support is truly appreciated! - Thank you so much. - Your support is helping us make this podcast more than appreciated. . Your support will be felt throughout the podcast is truly felt and appreciated and will be heard throughout the world. -PODCASTLECASTLE - Thankyou, Joe & PODCAST - Thanks, Joe - ETC - PODCO - MURDERER - PANDORA - PENNY - POTTERRACASTLE - PRAISE - JOSH - PASCO - PONDERING YOUR SUPPORTING THE EPISODDS - PASTOR - PARAKE - PORTAL - PUNTERRAVA - PANIC - PORCH - PEDCAST - PYORO - PATRIOTS - PENTAGRAM - POOCH
00:00:32.000Then I flew for 18 years for the Navy.
00:00:36.000Literally flew A6s, Hornets, and then Super Hornets.
00:00:40.000Had every qualification you could get in the airplane, everything, even the stuff they're not doing anymore.
00:00:45.000So I had NVG, high, low, went to Top Gun, and at the time of the incident that we're going to talk about, I was a commanding officer of VFA-41, the Black Aces.
00:00:56.000I've gone through a journey with this whole UFO stuff, from being a full-on true believer, to being incredibly skeptical, to trying to be open-minded, to...
00:01:07.000Being more of a believer now than I think I've ever been before.
00:01:11.000And one of the things that I've always said is the people that I believe, there's a lot of loony people out there, but the people that I put my trust in are high-level military people like yourself.
00:01:21.000So when I hear someone like you who has a story that defies logic or defies conventional understanding of how aircrafts work, that's when I sit back and I go, okay.
00:01:37.000Because, you know, there's always people that are telling you they're psychic or they sense things or they're in communication with Bigfoot.
00:01:45.000There's always loony people out there.
00:01:47.000But when someone is in the military, someone is trained to fly, I mean, how expensive are those jets?
00:01:54.000When we had about $70 million a piece.
00:01:56.000Yeah, they don't give those to morons.
00:02:00.000Some people in my family would probably argue that point, but hey, better lucky than good.
00:02:05.000It just seems to me that this is, for rational people that want to look at this whole UFO phenomenon objectively, you're the type of person that I want to talk to.
00:02:17.000So I was very excited to have you in here.
00:03:06.000We've got all the support ships out there.
00:03:08.000And we're going to integrate all the defenses and train as one unit.
00:03:11.000So the exercise that we're going to do is an air defense exercise where there's good guys, bad guys.
00:03:17.000They're all from internal, from the air wing.
00:03:19.000So the bad guys today are going to be the Marines, VMFA-232, the Red Devils.
00:03:24.000So they're going to launch, and they're going to go about 100 miles south of the ship, and we're the good guys, and we call it a 2v2, so it's two of us against two of them.
00:03:31.000We're going to work with the USS Princeton, which is going to be the controller, and they're going to control the blue forces, and then the red guys are going to give us a presentation that, you know, they're going to try and intercept so we can stop them from getting up towards the carrier.
00:03:43.000So that's kind of the training set that we're all good.
00:03:45.000So the Marines take off first, and they start heading to the south.
00:03:48.000Now, we have no idea that for two weeks, the two weeks we've been at sea, they've been tracking these things coming out of the sky.
00:03:55.000And when I talk to the Princeton controller, he's like up to about a dozen of them.
00:03:58.000They would come down from above 80,000 feet.
00:04:01.000They'd drop down to about 20,000 feet.
00:04:03.000They'd hang out and then they'd go straight back up after about three or four hours.
00:04:06.000Now, when you say they've been tracking them, who specifically?
00:04:08.000This is the USS. The Princeton is tracking them.
00:04:10.000They saw them on the Nimitz radar and the E-2 could see them.
00:04:14.000So, because they're out there, you know, that radar is on all the time.
00:04:18.000And the SPY-1 system on an Aegis cruiser is, you know, the state is probably one of the most sophisticated systems in the world.
00:04:24.000So typically when something like this happens and there is some unexplained phenomenon, what do they do?
00:04:30.000In this case, if we were in a threat environment, they would tell us.
00:04:34.000But if we're off the coast of San Diego, it doesn't come to the air wing.
00:04:37.000So we have no idea that these things are out there at all.
00:04:39.000So they observe these things and they never bother telling any of you guys?
00:05:32.000So they start talking to him about fuel and based on how long we're going to be airborne and everything else, they go, hey, why don't you just go ahead and proceed to your cap point because we had just taken off.
00:05:42.000And that's when the controller had come up and said, hey – I forget our cost.
00:05:46.000It's probably like dealer is usually what we went.
00:07:10.000Yeah, we have no, and there's reasons for that, that we don't fly.
00:07:13.000We typically don't fly with live ordinance unless we're actually going into like a combat zone or Or we're on a training range and we're going to shoot something.
00:07:20.000And the reason is you can go through history of the Navy or Air Force.
00:07:23.000If you put live missiles on airplanes and then you start doing training where you're squeezing the trigger, someone always messes the switchology up and someone gets shot down.
00:08:00.000So we drive out and they're calling down ranges.
00:08:02.000So they're telling us, hey, it's 270 at 30 miles at 20,000 feet.
00:08:06.000And it's, you know, and then you just count down the ranges.
00:08:08.000And we're talking back and forth the whole time.
00:08:10.000So they got to a point where they say, hey, merge plot, which means radars have resolution cells, you know, range and azimuth of what the radar can actually see.
00:08:20.000Once you're inside that box, you can't tell the difference between me and the object I'm going at.
00:08:29.000So they call merge plot and so the other jet is on my left-hand side and I'm going to go to a clock code to make it simple.
00:08:36.000So the object we're going to end up looking for is right in the middle of the clock and we are at the 6 o'clock position and my wingman is off to my left side.
00:08:48.000So as we're looking around, we look to the right and there's a – yesterday was a perfect example out here.
00:08:55.000The water is perfectly calm, no white caps.
00:08:58.000I mean it's literally a perfect San Diego, California day.
00:09:01.000And we see whitewater, something like if you see a seamount rock underwater when you're standing on the shore and the waves are breaking over and you're like, what is that?
00:09:09.000It's usually because there's a rock under the water.
00:09:11.000So it looks like that, but it's about the size of a 737. It actually kind of has a shape of like a cross, and it's pointing to the east.
00:09:18.000So you've got the long part going east-west, and you've got a couple of things going north and south.
00:09:23.000So as we're looking at it, because that kind of draws our eyes, we're like, oh, that's kind of odd.
00:09:26.000We look down and the wizzo in the other airplane comes up and says, hey, Skipper, do you?
00:09:32.000And that's about what he gets out of his mouth.
00:09:34.000And I'm kind of looking at the same thing.
00:11:26.000A reason, you know, because I've been asked, could you go more aggressive?
00:11:30.000You can, but when you're out over water, the water looks the same at 20,000 feet as it does at 2,000 feet.
00:11:35.000You don't, you know, so you can easily put yourself in a non-recoverable position if you're not paying attention and you go into the water.
00:11:43.000I get to about 12 o'clock and as I'm coming down, you know, I could guess probably about, you know, 18,000 feet now, a couple thousand feet below the other airplane.
00:11:51.000The tic-tac just kind of rapidly goes boop and turns.
00:11:55.000So now it's kind of pointing east-west and now it mirrors us.
00:12:20.000So I'm about, I don't know, probably 2,000 to 3,000 feet above it, and I just kind of drop my nose aggressively, and I cut across the circle, and it's coming this way.
00:12:29.000Because I'm trying to fly to where it's going to be because I want to join on it.
00:12:32.000I want to see how close I can get to it.
00:12:34.000And as I'm pulling up, it's kind of starting to cross my nose and it starts to accelerate.
00:12:38.000And within about less than a second, as I start to pull nose onto it and it crosses right in front of me, it just goes poof and it's gone.
00:12:47.000So I call the other airplane and I said, hey, do you guys see that thing?
00:13:16.000Now we're heading back out towards the east.
00:13:17.000And I tell the controller, I said, well...
00:13:20.000I said – I first said I'm kind of weirded out and I told my backseater that.
00:13:26.000We start heading back and the controller on the Princeton comes at me and says, sir, you're not going to believe this but that thing is back at your cap point.
00:13:32.000That was our original point where we were going to hold 40 miles south of the ship.
00:13:35.000So this thing has went from wherever we were at to about 60 miles in maybe 30, 40 seconds.
00:14:06.000One of my crews is getting ready to go out and I think they were going to be on a tanker mission but they had a targeting pod on board.
00:14:13.000So they launch off and we're telling them about this before and the backseater, Chad, says he's really – he's going to find this thing.
00:14:22.000So he tells the pilot, hey, we're going to find this thing.
00:14:24.000So they're just out driving around and in the backseat of a Super Hornet, there's no stick but there's side stick controllers and they're to control the sensors because that's what the weapon systems guys do.
00:14:35.000And they can change displays really fast by just hitting a button and it will flip from the radar to the targeting pod.
00:14:41.000And the way the system actually works is when you see something on the radar and you designate it as your primary target, all the other sensors will look at that point.
00:14:49.000So everything is kind of synced together.
00:14:52.000So he picks up a hit on his radar and he goes to lock it up because I've watched all the tapes.
00:14:57.000He goes to lock it up and immediately the radar can tell.
00:15:00.000It gets signals back that it's being jammed.
00:15:03.000And technically jamming is an act of war.
00:15:44.000Go to the video, and we'll tell people when we're starting, and we'll tell people what the title of the video that you get to is, and they can sync it up themselves if they're watching it.
00:19:53.000I mean, my wife and kids knew the event happened, but they didn't have all the details because it was just one of those things I just didn't get into.
00:20:19.000So in the battle group, you've got the admiral, you've got the captain of the ship, the captain of the Princeton, and then you've got the other COs.
00:20:28.000So position-wise, I'm probably, as a CEO of a squadron, in the top 20 out of 6,000.
00:21:33.000He investigated the incident, and it was very, very thorough.
00:21:36.000I mean, if you've read that, it's about 10 pages long.
00:21:39.000And he, I mean, he tracked down everybody.
00:21:41.000He tracked down all the people that were, the air crew that were involved.
00:21:44.000He talked to, he tracked down the admiral.
00:21:46.000He talked, I mean, it was a pretty thorough report.
00:21:49.000And I didn't think anything of it, you know, because, you know, the people worded it's out there, so they want to do FOIA, but it was never released in a FOIA request.
00:21:56.000I actually had the Navy call me I'd been out of the Navy for like six years.
00:22:00.000Let's explain to people that means Freedom of Information Act.
00:22:03.000So I got called by a public affairs person from the Navy and said, hey, is this Commander Fravor?
00:23:00.000I think there's reasons that the government doesn't tell the public everything and I don't speak for the government.
00:23:05.000But I think there's a good reason for that, that not everything needs to go out to the public.
00:23:09.000But most of it does and they just – what they do is they put a clause on, hey, for this program or whatever we're doing, which would have been an ATEP program, the work that they do and what they find is not – it's not releasable through Freedom Information Act.
00:23:20.000There's probably other avenues to get that.
00:23:23.000And then you go, well, what really is freedom of information?
00:23:25.000Because I got into this on a – I was talking to someone who's a conspiracy theorist and they said, well, so-and-so wrote and they're not getting any information on your event.
00:24:44.000So the object that you're looking at is hotter than the sky around it.
00:24:47.000But what you also notice is there's no plumes.
00:24:49.000Now, if you're looking at an airplane, when you get closer, you'll actually see the exhaust coming out and there will be a really glowing plume.
00:24:54.000That's important as we look at the video.
00:24:56.000And then most of the stuff on here you really don't need to know.
00:24:58.000What you can look at is the bottom right corner that says 19,990 and a B. That's the altitude.
00:25:04.000And if you look up in the little words where it says HDG and then BALT, it's autopilot.
00:25:41.000And if you look at the top, it says TV. So narrow in TV mode is actually – you can get closer than narrow in IR. It's literally – narrow in IR is about medium in TV mode.
00:25:51.000So you can get closer with the TV mode.
00:25:53.000So as you look at it now, in this case, you would actually start to see stuff going on.
00:25:58.000And even in TV mode because you get exhaust, you know, the black exhaust that comes out, you'll usually be able to see kind of some of that coming out of the back and you don't see anything.
00:26:37.000What that means is while he's got the pod, the targeting pod, because that's his primary sensor right now, the radar is still trying to look at this object and trying to range it.
00:26:44.000And the radar can't get ranging on it.
00:26:46.000So the object is doing something to say, I'm not giving you back, because it's just a Doppler radar, just like a police radar is a Doppler.
00:26:53.000It's trying to get a ranging on you, and it can't do it.
00:26:56.000So when it says 99.9, the radar cannot see this object right now.
00:29:40.000This thing goes from a standstill, takes off.
00:29:43.000It's a propulsion system we don't have in our inventory and no other nation does.
00:29:47.000That's how it's understood by the government.
00:29:50.000Now, if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do that same maneuver, this system would be able to track it?
00:30:01.000Yeah, it would stay with it until it got to the limits of the pod, you know, as far as looking to the left.
00:30:07.000And, you know, the radar would see it.
00:30:09.000I mean, when you get close enough, you're going to, you know, everything becomes visible because you get burned through with radar and how radars actually work.
00:30:18.000This one is, you know, you tell me, but this was...
00:30:26.000I mean, it's like when we saw it disappear when it flew in front of my nose.
00:30:30.000I'm talking something, I'm within a half mile of it, looking at it.
00:30:33.000And it gets in front of me and just disappears.
00:30:36.000So take, we'll just go to something that everyone knows is fast.
00:30:38.000Let's just say SR-71 that's doing Mach 3. You know, the visibility is 50 miles.
00:30:44.000So even at 35 miles a minute, I'm going to be able to see this thing turn into a little dot as it goes off into the horizon for probably a minute.
00:30:53.000The thing that we saw disappeared in a second.
00:31:37.000We always take our tapes because we record stuff when we're fighting.
00:31:40.000They take it down, and it's really to exercise the system when we're in training so that when we actually get over to, in this case, we are going over to the Persian Gulf, anything that we do comes in and gets debriefed, and then it all gets sent off.
00:31:50.000That's how you get the CNN video and all that.
00:31:52.000So they go down and they debrief and have to tell, hey, we chased this object.
00:32:54.000And then the ship – this spreads – if you have a rumor on the ship, 5,000 people are going to know about it within probably 30 minutes.
00:33:56.000I go, you want to talk about the UFO? He goes, yeah, I just – I can't get it out of my mind.
00:34:01.000And then we would just sit there and talk about it.
00:34:03.000To me, it was like, you know, we're just saying, you know, my entire now flying career is defined by five minutes of chasing this white Tic Tac, vice almost 4,000 hours, you know, flying.
00:34:14.000Now, did you encounter anyone else that had a similar experience?
00:34:20.000I've talked to the guys, a couple of guys from the East Coast event, the gimbal video.
00:34:30.000Keep in mind, ours is 2004. The gimbal video is 2015. The funny part about the gimbal video and the East Coast stuff that was going on, because that's off the vacate, so off the coast of the United States, they're called warning areas,
00:34:45.000and all they are is if you look on an aviation map, they're these big Areas that are blocked off by blue and they say like whiskey 291 or whiskey 243. Is the gimbal video available in the same way that that video is available?
00:35:06.000He was the – he led the fighter wing on the East Coast and I had called him up because we start finding out that these things were so prevalent out off the East Coast of the United States and there's a couple of them.
00:35:15.000So there's the – we're going to talk.
00:35:17.000What they started seeing originally was these things and one of them almost hit – the airplane almost hit one of these things.
00:35:23.000But it looks like a cube inside of a clear beach ball.
00:35:26.000So they don't know if it's actually like a surrounding or it's – you don't know if it's a force field.
00:35:30.000And you see kind of in the gimbal video, it's got like an aura around it where ours didn't.
00:35:49.000As we're flying out, so they're flying out and the airplanes are deployed, we call it combat spread, and one of the airplanes almost hits one of these, goes close down like 50 feet down the side.
00:35:59.000And almost hits one of these floating cubes inside of the beach ball.
00:36:03.000And someone goes, wow, it's a balloon.
00:36:25.000And at first when they started seeing stuff, they were like, ah, it's just like, maybe it's the radar, just give me a false target.
00:36:30.000Eh, that radar really doesn't give false targets.
00:36:33.000And then someone did exactly what Chad did, is they threw their targeting flare out there, and all of a sudden when you see a heat signature, there's a return, there's obviously something out where that blip is at.
00:37:56.000And they said, well, we put out a NOTAM, which is a notice to airmen that just says, hey, these things are out there, so just be careful because we don't want you to hit one.
00:38:11.000And I said, well, because it was all white and it didn't have any markings on it and it didn't have any wings and it didn't have any rotors and it was just – it outperformed anything that we have.
00:38:21.000I think if I would have painted China or Russia on the side...
00:39:46.000But there were more objects surrounding this is what he's telling you right now, which is fascinating because the world doesn't know that yet.
00:41:20.000We know there's a program currently that they said is gone.
00:41:23.000However, it is currently active to study this.
00:41:26.000These things will turn belly first, the saucer type looking ones, and then that's the high speed mode because they focus allegedly, you know, these gravity wave amplifiers.
00:42:21.000So this is counterintuitive the way it goes from being aerodynamic to being un-aerodynamic when it goes sideways and then flies belly forward.
00:42:31.000It's – well, it's not – if you talk – because I was just talking to the guy the other day and he said the irony with it is these things would be out there for hours.
00:42:40.000We don't have, you know, a high-performance airplane does not have hours worth of gas.
00:42:44.000I mean, you know, Hornets, if we don't have aerial refueling, you know, and we're actually out doing a mission and fighting and going fast, you know, you're talking hour and a half and you're coming back to land.
00:42:55.000Some airplanes are even less, you know, based on their size.
00:42:58.000You know, so like an F-16 doesn't have external fuel tanks.
00:43:42.000They're coming straight down, they stop at around 20,000 feet, they hang out for three hours, and then they go straight back up.
00:43:51.000So, and I know you had Elon on the show.
00:43:53.000So, SpaceX is really excited because they can launch a rocket and then they can have the booster come back to Earth and actually land on a pad.
00:44:12.000You know, and you got something that can just at will move around.
00:44:15.000Now take it to the next level, and I know there's a lot of talk about this, so Dave's going to go into speculation mode.
00:44:19.000But when you take a shape like that, so just take the tic-tac shape, which is shaped like a submarine.
00:44:24.000If you're using a propulsion that's non-reactive where you're just manipulating the median that you're in, air, whatever, you can go into the water.
00:44:33.000So when you hear all the reports of, hey, we've seen these things since World War II that would come out of the water and fly, if you have a technology like this, as long as the object is sealed where you're not going to get water inside of it, there's nothing that says you can't do that.
00:44:47.000Because all you're doing is you're not, you know, where a jet engine sucks in air and blows it out the back or a propeller actually pushes the water.
00:44:55.000Now you've got something that's actually manipulating the gravity field and it's just moving through a void.
00:45:01.000Then it doesn't, then air, you could literally in theory fly, go into the ocean, cruise around, pop back up, fly around, go to space.
00:45:10.000Nothing, you remove the barriers of the normal propulsion that we have today.
00:45:15.000There's been many instances of sightings off the coast of California of things that plunge into the water or escape from the water and take off into space.
00:45:25.000Yeah, with the field propulsion system, as Commander Fravor's describing, as Lazar described, it doesn't matter the medium of space, air, or water.
00:46:07.000However, it has had the most impact out of any sighting because of his credibility and the mere fact that the New York Times picked it up with video footage, radar evidence, and somebody who We're good to go.
00:47:00.000So I was sitting at home and usually when people try and find me, they get my wife's cell phone because it's the first one on the cell phone bill and it's all in my name.
00:47:06.000So I see this call from California and I'm like, and normally I don't answer them.
00:49:59.000Well, you turn the lights are all down because we're in a restricted area so we can do that.
00:50:02.000And there's lights on it that you can only see if you're on night vision goggles.
00:50:06.000So the other airplanes can see us, but no one else can see us.
00:50:09.000Then you go zinging at it, and then right when you get to the campfire, you pull the airplane into the vertical, you stroke the afterburners, you let them light off, you count to three, you pull them off, and then you just go away.
00:50:21.000I'm sitting out in the desert, it's all quiet, and then all of a sudden there's a lure, there's lights in the sky, and they go away and it's gone.
00:50:27.000You would do that just to fuck with campers?
00:50:48.000Yeah, I'm not that creative, but it's just, you know, you think about it and you go, because people go, I saw this or I saw that because I've got stuff like that.
00:50:55.000And I go, yeah, I used to create stuff like that, just not tell.
00:50:57.000Do you, are you, Jeremy, I'm sure you're aware of this, the footage from the Mexican Air Force?
00:51:09.000So you can see in the infrared, so it's beyond the observable, you know, eye.
00:51:15.000I myself have not detailed looked at the footage.
00:51:19.000However, FLIR experts and people that work with NSA have looked at it for me.
00:51:22.000And these are not lights in the distance.
00:51:25.000These are craft, very similar to what Commander Fravor talks about, without plumes, without heat signatures, you know, non-traditional field propulsion systems.
00:52:12.000There's now admitted an increased frequency that a Pentagon spokeswoman finally went off script.
00:52:18.000I was tracking the scripts for the last two years of what Pentagon spokespeople say about Commander Fravor's experience.
00:52:22.000Someone went off script last week in the New York Times, and she admitted there's an increased frequency of near misses because of these AAVs, anomalous aerospace vehicles.
00:52:48.000Now, that gimbal footage, when it said that there's a fleet of them, how far away are those guys where you don't see the individual objects?
00:52:59.000Well, the pod is, you know, when you get pretty narrow, it'd be like, you know, if I put three people around you, I can look at you and not see the other people.
00:53:07.000But the radar is seeing everything because it has an AESA radar in it, which is an active electronically scanned array.
00:53:13.000So instead of like the radars we had, which did the mechanical, you know, doing this...
00:53:17.000Like old school, this thing is just a panel that sits in the front of the airplane and through beam shaping it can move and it can look all over.
00:53:25.000So we used to have what was called track while scanned so we would be able to track a target while we're still scanning.
00:53:29.000This thing has scan while – it scans while tracked.
00:53:32.000So it literally – if it sees you, if the radar sees you, it has basically a weapons quality solution and it can do that on multiple targets.
00:53:40.000That's the same way the spy radar, the Aegis system, works on the cruisers.
00:53:45.000It can track multiple targets and have weapons quality on all these different targets while it's still scanning a volume.
00:53:51.000So in that image, you're seeing one individual object, but there's other objects?
00:54:08.000The pod is looking at the main – that's the bigger object at the gimbal, the thing that's rotating on the screen.
00:54:12.000And there's five smaller things in front.
00:54:14.000So this thing is just sitting there and then they kind of – he said they turn around on the radar and start going the other way while the pod is looking at this guy just kind of rotating.
00:54:22.000So like a mothership and smaller aircraft?
00:54:48.000People come out of the woodwork when they figure out you've had this because now they don't feel alone.
00:54:54.000So I was working – I still do it, but I was doing oil and gas at the time on a contract and one of the guys, the story came out and he was a Navy helicopter pilot.
00:55:05.000And he comes in and he goes, can I talk to you, man?
00:56:10.000The helo drops the swimmer in the water.
00:56:12.000He goes and hooks this whole thing up and then they hoist the whole thing up and fly back and then they extract the data.
00:56:16.000So he says he's sitting in the front, you know, in helicopters, there's, you know, CH-53, you can actually see down by your feet, you know, just like typical, like you go to Hawaii and ride the suit because you can see when you're touching down.
00:56:25.000So you got really good visibility out of those things and you can stick your head out the window too because you're just kind of hanging out.
00:56:30.000He says he's going on there and they're getting this thing hooked up and as he's looking down, you know, because they're, I don't know what, 50 feet above the water, he sees kind of this dark mass coming up from the depths.
00:56:40.000And they're starting to hoist the diver up and they've got the BQM and as they hoist it up, he says, and he's looking at this thing going, what the hell is that?
00:56:47.000And then it just goes back down underwater.
00:56:49.000It's just like, once they pull the kid and the BQM out of the water, this object descends back into the depths.
00:56:56.000So he thinks, well, that was pretty weird.
00:58:02.000He goes, it literally looked like it got sucked down.
00:58:07.000The only reason they didn't, they talked to him when they did the New York Times stuff, they talked to him, but because the incident was from the 90s, they wanted something newer, so they did not include it, but I know they talked to him about it.
00:58:18.000Now, what was the other footage that we were looking at?
00:58:20.000There was the first footage that Jamie pulled up that wasn't the gimbal footage?
00:58:26.000It actually looks more like a Tic Tac, but they saw it going across the water, and they're just grabbing a lock.
00:58:33.000So they're seeing this with their eyes, and he gets the FLIR to lock on it, and that's when you hear the kid go, oh, I got it, because he gets the auto track, and it's just something screaming across the surface of the water.
00:58:45.000This is the same time frame as the gimbal video.
00:58:48.000So the idea that these are birds, or the idea that this is a radar glitch, or somebody said pilot error, like on a clear blue day, Commander Fravor has nerves.
00:58:56.000I mean, that kind of thing that people have said on your show to you, these are explanations that make sense.
00:59:09.000Like, every single thing that's ever happened has a rational explanation for it.
00:59:14.000Yeah, so the probability that all the radars went off at the wrong time, Commander Fravor had nerves, all the other pilots up there with him, that this thing shot off like a gun instantly, that that was somehow perfectly coordinated.
01:00:08.000We got to go down and see because there's people and we are sympathetic.
01:00:13.000And to the tic-tac and as soon as the tic-tac, it's like – Holy shit, what is that?
01:00:19.000And when you get – some people get very emotional when you talk about it because for me it was like – for her, when you talk to her, she has a disdain for some of the leadership that didn't tell us that these things were out there.
01:00:37.000Here now we're getting vectored because we were the first time the manned airplanes had been airborne when one of these things showed up.
01:00:43.000That no one even gave us a brief that, hey, we're seeing these objects out here for the last two weeks.
01:00:46.000You might want to know they're out there.
01:01:23.000We went out at the beginning of the month for this two-week at-save period.
01:01:27.000We pulled in for Thanksgiving, but other than that, we were out until, I think, December 21st is when we pulled the ship back in, besides pulling in for the three days of Thanksgiving.
01:01:36.000So yeah, for the two weeks prior, so this was on the 14th, and we went out at the beginning of the month.
01:01:40.000So about two weeks, they'd been watching these things come down, go up, come down, go up.
01:01:43.000But it was always when we were not flying, which is really probably like the midnight timeframe until early in the morning, you know, until noon the next day.
01:01:53.000And if you think about it, you know, I laugh.
01:01:55.000You know, if there was some little green man flying around in that Tic Tac, he probably got back to the mothership and got yelled at for being seen.
01:02:03.000You're like, oh my god, you let them see you!
01:02:06.000So have you communicated with anybody that has any thoughts on what these things are doing or whether or not there's any consistency to the size of them or whether or not they think they're coming out of a larger object or anything along these lines?
01:02:51.000So the disturbance seemed to be in the shape of a cross?
01:02:55.000I describe it as – it's about the size of a 737. So just think if you submerge the 737, pointing it to the east underwater by like 10, 15 feet.
01:03:05.000So as these waves are coming across, when they hit that object, they're going to break on top just like you would with a submerged like a seamount.
01:03:12.000So, and it's, they're breaking, and that's where the Tic Tac was at.
01:03:15.000That's the only reason we saw the Tic Tac.
01:03:16.000That's what drew our eyes down there, is we see this whitewater when it's a perfectly clear day with no whitecaps, and you go, whoa, what's that?
01:03:23.000And then you see the Tic Tac, and then we, you know, we do all the chasing of the Tic Tac, and we turn, we're right there.
01:03:27.000And we turn around, and there's no whitewater.
01:04:16.000One, if you have a propulsion system that made – it gave the capabilities that we observed visually, that's a huge leap for mankind period.
01:04:25.000So you would say, yeah, it was – you know, think about it.
01:04:30.000It's going to be 15 years next month that we saw this.
01:04:34.000I would like to think that – OK, maybe – let's just say in 2004 it was something.
01:04:42.000If you come to now, you go 15 years later, you don't think that technology would have emerged because it literally would change everything we do.
01:04:48.000I mean we're happy about hybrid and electric cars and all this other stuff, but if you've got something that works like that, It would change air travel forever.
01:05:05.000Think of a 40-foot-long Tic Tac that can move at will through the air at speeds well beyond what we've ever witnessed.
01:05:15.000I mean, even when you watch a rocket go off, you know, one of Elon's or one of the NASA, whatever, you know, you sit there and while I grew up during the Apollo ages where you just look at the thing and go up, up, up, up, up.
01:05:25.000I've seen them shot out of Vandenberg where you go, you know, I'd sit in my house in Central California and you'd watch it go up and go, oh, I can watch that thing for a while.
01:05:31.000This is something that just like, poof, in a matter of seconds is gone.
01:05:35.000Now, are other pilots or other people that have sighted these things, have they also reported something larger that's in the water near it?
01:06:06.000But yet there's still groups of people that are making stuff up like someone came out on ours, was talking about, and he's like, oh, I saw the whole video is 10 minutes long and it was doing all this.
01:06:22.000I think it's about a minute and a half long.
01:06:23.000What people haven't seen that I saw, I mean, I've seen the radar tapes because I had them as my squadron.
01:06:29.000You know, I've heard, you know, the men in black, you know, I just, you know, maybe the, okay, I'll give you the credit if they did, but why wouldn't they show up and talk to the guys who actually witnessed it, chased it, and is one of the senior guys in the battle group?
01:06:42.000Right, and it's also possible that that men in black stuff was something that they used to do back in the day and that that program is no longer continued.
01:06:51.000Jeremy, you would know this, the older sightings, when they go back into the day, to historical sightings, not Columbus, but in the 50s and 60s, did they have similar things that they talked about, or something moved in this manner?
01:07:05.000Yeah, it's absolutely incredible, and I want to dumb this down, because that's how I had to understand it.
01:07:09.000When I was talking with Commander Fravor years before I kept his secret, years before the New York Times blew it up, I told them it was probably going to happen, it wasn't by me.
01:08:00.000Because at that time, a policy was started.
01:08:03.000And that policy started because it crashed our communications, the teletypes went down, the panic of the UFOs that were being seen by people with fighter pilots trying to capture and trying to engage them.
01:10:10.000It's just one of the oldest accounts I was trying to throw out that this is something that...
01:10:14.000Do you know of, there's a very famous painting that shows what appears to be men in crafts flying through the sky in the background of an ancient painting?
01:10:30.000One of the first pages I ever put on my website is like a bunch of these because throughout history there are these indications of ships, of craft.
01:11:52.000We have a witness here, you know, a pilot.
01:11:54.000But when you see something like the Miracle of Fatima, if you look at that… What is the Miracle of Fatima?
01:11:59.000God, that's that one that was, you know, considered a real miracle by the church and the three kids were getting messages, I'll get this all wrong, but for like months that they're going to be visited and to bring people in bigger and bigger groups gathered to where there was over 100,000 people.
01:12:15.0001917. 1917. So, you know, dozens of thousands, if not hundreds, but dozens for sure, see an event, a mass sighting of something that happened.
01:12:27.000We're talking people that were religious, people that weren't religious, you know, doctors at the time.
01:12:31.000That's not a real image, is it, Jamie?
01:12:32.000That one was doctored a little bit, so you could see, like, they're all looking at something.
01:13:14.000It is fascinating, but it's way more fascinating when someone like you talks about it versus some fucking random kook.
01:13:22.000That's what makes me incredibly interested, is your credibility and the fact that you don't have a history of seeing wacky shit that other people don't see.
01:13:38.000I've seen people try to explain it away, and what I don't like about when they explain it away or attempt to explain it away is that they're trying really hard.
01:13:46.000They're not going, who knows what this fucking thing is.
01:13:49.000They're not looking at it, like, cleanly.
01:14:29.000They're looking at it and they're trying to find a way where they can justify that it's fake.
01:14:35.000And they're just doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to make it fake.
01:14:39.000That video that you show where that thing slips off to the left and takes off at incredible rates of speed, that alone should freak people the fuck out.
01:14:48.000Yeah, well, I think because people confuse all the time, like we took the video and it was another crew that took the video.
01:14:53.000We watched it for five minutes with our eyeballs and there was four of us and we all have the same story.
01:15:14.000I imagine they probably saw him on radar after that, but I think They're probably seeing them on radar all the time.
01:15:19.000They just don't bring it to the attention of the general public.
01:15:23.000Oh, yeah, because if you don't, you know, for a ship when they see something, you know, what is that?
01:15:27.000Well, you don't have any way to go out there and look at it.
01:15:30.000Like when you're talking about how they were informing you that they were seeing these things previous to your mission, when you're doing this exercise and they let you know that they're seeing these things, did you say, hey, how frequent is this?
01:15:45.000Is this something that happens all the time?
01:16:09.000We have a tendency, if we don't know what it is, if we just ignore it, it'll go away.
01:16:13.000You know, and I joke, you know, there was an incident years, it's probably not too far off the same time frame, but I think it was like the Constellation was doing her workups before she got decommissioned, and an Oscar class, a Soviet Oscar class submarine surfaced behind her,
01:16:30.000And then it's, now it's like, you know, go to battle stations, World War III, how did this foreign submarine get in our area and has been monitoring our workups?
01:16:59.000It has performance well beyond, you know, and the airplanes that we were flying at the time were literally brand new Super Hornets right out of the Boeing factory.
01:17:06.000I mean, these were brand new first Block II series that came out.
01:17:11.000And you go, why wasn't something done?
01:17:14.000You know, it's like, ah, we don't know what it is.
01:17:16.000I think it's good now, you know, the moves that have happened over the last, you know, two years since the original article came out that, you know, now there's a new reporting for the pilots.
01:17:26.000The Navy's acknowledged, hey, these things, we don't know what they were.
01:17:29.000You know, they're starting to take it serious because, you know, I know there are other events that are not out, recent events where people have been called in to go, hey, I've seen this thing.
01:17:38.000So the investigation process is still going on.
01:17:41.000We don't – the military doesn't stop.
01:17:45.000Even if you take funding away, we don't stop.
01:17:47.000We don't stop until we're told to stop.
01:17:57.000It was $22 million over the five years.
01:17:59.000So you go – What are they doing since then?
01:18:02.000Well, I mean I'm pretty sure there are still people looking at this and there are still people that are taking this serious.
01:18:07.000I will tell you that – I won't get into specifics but there are people inside the United States government that are taking this serious and I've been down to D.C. twice to talk to folks.
01:18:18.000You know, behind closed doors to go because they want to hear the story.
01:18:22.000And I've got a lot of you got to be joking.
01:18:41.000But you can say high level government officials I have talked to.
01:18:45.000Well, that was always the speculation about, like, what would someone do if they became president?
01:18:51.000Well, the first thing I would do is I would tell everybody about the UFOs.
01:18:55.000I would ask immediately, what's going on?
01:18:59.000And I always thought about it, I said, how many people actually know what's going on?
01:19:02.000And how much of the information, I mean, it's not like, if they're dealing with something like this, like your experience, it seems like what you described is what is known.
01:19:15.000So it's this anomalous event where this thing defies our current understanding of technology, and then it's gone.
01:19:47.000That was the weirdest thing about talking to him.
01:19:49.000But when you look at it and go, because I had asked Bob, I said...
01:19:54.000What he describes in the technology when he talks about his story, I said, well, do you honestly think we could, you know, reverse engineer it?
01:20:02.000I said, how long do you think it would take us?
01:20:04.000And his response to me was another hundred years.
01:20:07.000He goes, Dave, it was so far beyond...
01:20:10.000He goes, the stuff that he says he worked on.
01:20:12.000He's like, you know, he was on your podcast because I watched it.
01:22:13.000And I think when people start talking about anything that's not proven or anything that's connected to a bunch of loony people that are making up stories, which UFOs certainly are.
01:22:35.000Yeah, he's proven to have done tons of hoaxes with this, but here's the deal.
01:22:40.000Sometimes I think people have a real experience, and they're always like chasing that dragon, and they get UFO disease, and the brain goes fucking berserk, right?
01:22:47.000I know that there are people that have had profound experiences, and then they can't ever replicate them, so then they just start going crazy.
01:22:54.000And I don't blame them for it, but you got someone like Commander Fravor, when he saw that AAV, anomalous aerospace vehicle, his reaction was, I want to fly it.
01:23:50.000From the very beginning, when Bob Lazar came forward and talked about field propulsion, gravity propulsion, Distance becomes completely irrelevant.
01:23:58.000So if we believe, and the radars are right, and Commander Fravor saw this thing move in like a ping pong ball in a glass of water, it's gravity propelled, that's why you can make those maneuvers without exploding, then distance becomes completely irrelevant for travel.
01:24:13.000You're literally warping time and space.
01:24:23.000People will be like, what are you talking about?
01:24:25.000Like before photography was invented, which is shockingly recent, right?
01:24:29.000You ought to draw pictures of things you saw, just like those people that drew or painted those images of those men and whatever those things were with Christ in the background.
01:24:39.000The idea that we could understand what some insanely impressive technology from a planet that is nowhere near us could manifest.
01:25:53.000Well, Bob Lazar, whether you believe him or not, there was a program.
01:25:58.000I have other witnesses that I will be bringing forward about S4, where he worked.
01:26:03.000You have other witnesses that worked alongside Bob?
01:26:09.000Bob's account in that they saw him get on and off the red and whites, the Janet flights that come on, somebody that went to Papoose Lake and was stopped by non-military guards at that time, people that were aware of Site 4 and ET exploitation projects.
01:26:28.000One is an SR-71 pilot that I've been talking with for a couple years.
01:26:31.000These people are coming forward now, and it's like I'm sick and tired of doing it, these little nitpicky things about Bob.
01:26:53.000So this is something that was launched in the first New York Times article, I believe, in December of 2017, that there is studies being done right now on materials associated with UFOs, right?
01:27:03.000So actual metals that have come off of, you could say, crashes or just- Not that it explained that there was something – they were with Eric Weinstein that was explaining that there was someone who reportedly has something along those lines.
01:27:51.000Well, they're studying them right now.
01:27:52.000There was just something on Fox about it.
01:27:54.000They're studying some of these materials.
01:27:56.000And what they will find, because the ones they're talking about, I actually took to New Mexico and had five scientists study it in About five years ago, I got my hands on it, got to study it, the famous parts they're talking about now.
01:28:08.000It's layered, and the way it's layered is what they're trying to see if it's anomalous elementally or the way that the elements are bound together and also the atomic level of layering is what's interesting.
01:29:22.000It's basically oriented at a certain degree.
01:29:24.000That's how you get a superconductor or something like that.
01:29:26.000If you take a piece of graphene and it's highly machined so it doesn't deviate from that atomic layering, you can push it right through ice like a hot knife through butter.
01:29:35.000It's the weirdest feeling in the world because you just take this piece of what feels like graphene and it just goes right through butter because it's a superconductor and the heat from your hand Melts the ice.
01:29:48.000And it has special properties because of the way it's atomically layered.
01:29:53.000So if these materials are from somewhere else, then we suspect that they're going to be highly machined, that they're going to be created for special use.
01:30:01.000So my whole point is our material science has not caught up with the physics that we understand for these field propulsion systems.
01:30:09.000I'm just telling you, believe me or not, but you'll hear more about it, that That our material science in 1989 and today is our limiting factor.
01:30:19.000And as our material science gets better as humans, we know how these things work.
01:30:24.000Now the fuel source, that's a whole other conversation.
01:30:28.000But as far as creating these machines, that's what we're trying to do.
01:31:32.000For me, it was, I think there's more out there.
01:31:35.000And if I could get word out to anyone, it's like, you know, especially the debunkers of, one, quit trying to debunk it, because it is what it is.
01:31:43.000It wasn't a There wasn't a system glitch.
01:31:45.000I mean this was a real incident that happened.
01:31:47.000Number two is let's open our aperture a little bit and start thinking outside of the box.
01:31:52.000If you go – you look at it and go, hey, it's this non-reactive propulsion.
01:31:56.000Well, it's because when we came up with propulsion, we – the people long before us came up with a reactionary propulsion system and that became our standard.
01:32:05.000Had we done something different or we developed non-reaction, we might look at something like a gasoline engine and go, holy cow, how does that thing work?
01:32:14.000So I think there's – if you look at it and go – people thought Einstein was kind of nuts and we're still proving his theories today and what we're learning is that he was right.
01:33:50.000You know, for an F-18 to do a split S, which is go from up here and just do a vertical 180-degree turn, so you're going this way and you go down here.
01:34:20.000So if we just open up that expanse for what we're trying to do for technology and go, is there another way?
01:34:26.000Because we still build suckers and blowers, which is a jet engine.
01:34:31.000We just refine the internals, the turbines to get them to be more efficient.
01:34:35.000Where I go, why don't you just put your efforts someplace else?
01:34:38.000Like I was talking to – there's a whole realm of physics that really doesn't get explained and it's – I was talking to Steve Justice about it.
01:34:47.000It's more into the magnetics type side that we don't spend a lot of time on.
01:34:54.000And I know what he said when he was working at Skunk Works, he did – it's called IRED, Internal Research and Development Money.
01:35:00.000That he would fund to try and look at some of these other technologies for propulsion.
01:35:08.000But really impressive to talk to him at the level that you can, which is for us would be an unclassified level.
01:35:15.000But the stuff that goes on behind closed doors, there's reasons for it.
01:35:20.000If a technology like that got out where someone could rapidly reproduce it after all you've done or they got it first, you think of the atomic bomb.
01:35:34.000Literally changed the world when we detonated the first one and you go – I'm not going to get into the politics behind it.
01:35:41.000Now we had it and now it was the race everyone else because they had to get on equal par because it's a destabilizing thing.
01:35:46.000And now all of a sudden if you develop a technology like this and you keep it to yourself, you've got something that no one else has and it's a huge leap.
01:36:08.000Well, it's fascinating that some other method of propulsion could have been established in some other place, and that we're experiencing it, or that you've experienced it, and some other folks have experienced it, in action.
01:36:25.000I just think for us as people, as human beings in 2019, it's really easy to think that what we have now is so amazing and that what we have now is the pinnacle of discovery and that what we have now is,
01:36:41.000you know, with our electricity and with our LED screens and that we are experiencing like the height of technology when if you're some creature from some other planet that is...
01:36:54.000Got easy access to element 115 and some gravity propulsion system.
01:36:59.000You're looking at us like we're digging holes in the side of a mountain to protect ourselves from the rain.
01:37:38.000So it's where are we at and what are we going to do and what can we do?
01:37:42.000Did it change the way you look at life?
01:37:44.000I mean, even though you knew that or you had this feeling that we were not alone just from looking at the stars, but when you actually see the thing, I would imagine that that has got to really shift your perspective.
01:37:59.000I don't know if it shifted my perspective, but it was more of a – it's a validation.
01:38:05.000To go – you go, yeah, I've always like, yeah, there's a lot of stars.
01:38:09.000And then you see something like this and go, well, maybe we're not because that pushes you to the next point to go – one lands in my front yard, then I'll be 100 percent sure that we are not alone because it's sitting in my front yard.
01:40:39.000If you put yourself in a position of one of these high-level government officials, what do you do?
01:40:44.000Just spend more money on looking at them?
01:40:46.000Well, if you look at money though, I mean I know when the article came out and they talked about the ATIP program that Harry Reid got funded $22 million over five years.
01:41:10.000If you took $100 million out of that, it's not even going to put a dent.
01:41:14.000And I go, why can't you – if you're only spending $4.4 million a year and you can actually get some good work done because you don't need a huge team.
01:41:21.000Because you figure if you look at I think – what's the number like?
01:41:25.00010, 15 percent of all these UFOs like if you look at Project Blue Book really remained unexplained.
01:41:31.000And you go, okay, so you can weed out, you know, you can weed out me flying over someone in a campfire and lighting my afterburners.
01:41:37.000So you can go, no, that was Dave being Dave.
01:41:59.000I said, look, I'm all for you guys funding a program, but what you need to do is fund a program that there's going to be oversight over.
01:42:05.000When I say oversight, I mean because what happens is you go, here's money, but we're going to distribute it in the government, so we're going to distribute it to these three different agencies across the United States government.
01:42:14.000Just call them agency A, B, and C. So you give it to them, and I'll go back to the 9-11 stuff where we really had the answer, but all the agencies weren't talking to each other to put all the pieces together, and that's my fear that You go, hey, we're going to take $100 million of taxpayer money.
01:42:29.000We're going to fund a program to actually seriously investigate this stuff and look at the technology.
01:42:34.000But there are three different entities working on their own and not talking to each other.
01:42:37.000So there's got to be a joint collaboration until we go, we're going to do it.
01:42:41.000But Joe is going to be in charge and you guys are all going to play nice in the sandbox together because we want to get our money's worth because people will raise the fraud, waste and abuse flag that we're wasting money on something stupid.
01:42:55.000Now, the gimbal video shows a different kind of thing.
01:43:40.000The only place that picture came from is...
01:43:42.000Barry Seale's airplane, you know, and then now Barry Seale's a dead man.
01:43:45.000So you got to watch when you release because you go, hey, we got this video, but it was taken someplace we probably weren't supposed to be.
01:44:16.000But I look and then next thing you know, it's on YouTube.
01:44:18.000So when I would tell this story to my friends, I would go – I'd send them a link to the YouTube video.
01:44:23.000And this is years before the New York Times article.
01:44:25.000And then when they did the unofficial official report, the video was taken down off of YouTube.
01:44:31.000And, you know, it kind of puzzled me, like, why'd you take the video down?
01:44:33.000And I told the guys when they did the unofficial fish report, I said, what you really need to look at is how did this thing come off of a classified drive system on an aircraft carrier and end up on strangeland.com and YouTube?
01:44:42.000Because at the time, the videos were classified secret.
01:44:45.000And that's not because it was a UFO. It's the AT FLIR video.
01:47:45.000You're telling me, and I'm like, wow, I'm listening, I'm trying to imagine, I'm putting it in my head, I'm visualizing it, but damn, I wish I could see it.
01:47:54.000Yeah, I said this to a guy where he's pretty – I don't say who it was or what his position was.
01:48:00.000He's pretty prominent in the UFO community.
01:51:21.0003,000 plus people, even though they were scared to come because they were told to be scared to come out there, that it's going to be a riot.
01:51:28.000And they peacefully assembled and enjoyed this thing I had.