The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1520 - Dr. Debra Soh

00:00:01.000 Three, two, one.

00:00:03.000 Hello, Debra. 1.00

00:00:05.000 Hi.

00:00:06.000 We were just talking.

00:00:07.000 You're locked up in Toronto.

00:00:08.000 You were thinking about flying here, but they fill the planes now, you were saying, which is a little disturbing.

00:00:15.000 I did not know they're doing that.

00:00:17.000 Yeah, they usually would leave the middle seat open, but as of about a month or so ago, they book it fully now.

00:00:23.000 So I was super excited.

00:00:24.000 I'm so sad that I can't be there with you because I've been counting down the days and I was thinking, I have to at least be in LA to do Joe's show, but I was just a bit scared.

00:00:33.000 Yeah, well, it's scary.

00:00:34.000 It's weird.

00:00:35.000 I mean, how many people have you known that have caught it now?

00:00:38.000 Actually, nobody.

00:00:39.000 Isn't that wild?

00:00:40.000 That's crazy.

00:00:41.000 Everybody I know knows at least one or two people.

00:00:43.000 I don't know anyone, so I'm very, very lucky.

00:00:45.000 I'm up to nine friends.

00:00:47.000 Nine friends have gotten it.

00:00:49.000 Wild.

00:00:50.000 Yeah, two of them got it bad.

00:00:52.000 Yeah, two of them got it really bad to the point where they were hospitalized.

00:00:57.000 Wow.

00:00:57.000 Yeah.

00:00:59.000 One of them was an older guy, and one of them was a guy who was 45, who just was run...

00:01:03.000 My friend Michael Yeo, who was just run down.

00:01:05.000 He was just really exhausted from too much traveling and too much...

00:01:09.000 I mean, it was a really crazy schedule that he was on, and he wound up catching it.

00:01:13.000 He had it bad.

00:01:14.000 He was hospitalized for a week.

00:01:16.000 Oh no, is he doing okay now?

00:01:17.000 Yeah, he's fine now, but his endurance is really low, like his lung capacity suffered.

00:01:24.000 That's the thing, because when this happened, I felt like, okay, everything has to stop and I have to take care of myself.

00:01:29.000 We take it for granted, right, when you're healthy, but the minute something like this happens, this is something that I would have never even thought about.

00:01:36.000 Are you taking a lot of vitamin D? No, I'm actually...

00:01:41.000 Everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D. I take omega.

00:01:44.000 Well, that's good.

00:01:45.000 But you should really...

00:01:47.000 Vitamin C and vitamin D are critical and zinc.

00:01:50.000 Zinc is critical.

00:01:51.000 But vitamin D in particular, they did a study, several studies actually.

00:01:55.000 Dr. Rhonda Patrick was on the podcast talking about it.

00:01:58.000 And she said that there was several studies that show that in the people that were in the ICU with COVID... More than 80% of them were insufficient when their vitamin D levels, and only 4% were sufficient.

00:02:11.000 So it's not a prevent-all, it's not provable, but there's got to be some sort of a correlation.

00:02:19.000 I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it, because I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money for those.

00:02:26.000 I don't think they would.

00:02:27.000 I think you're wrong.

00:02:28.000 A few people would, probably.

00:02:30.000 But I've talked to enough people that I think vitamin D, zinc, and vitamin C seem to be critical.

00:02:36.000 But just overall health is very important.

00:02:38.000 I mean, it's one of the things that my fan Andrew Schultz was saying that was exposed by this pandemic.

00:02:45.000 The vulnerabilities of our economic system and the vulnerabilities of our health system.

00:02:51.000 Like, human beings have...

00:02:53.000 There's too many of us that are just not well.

00:02:55.000 We don't take care of ourselves.

00:02:57.000 So when something like this happens, you don't just get sick, you could die from it.

00:03:02.000 Whereas the vast majority of people that get it, they're not going to die from it.

00:03:07.000 But there's enough that it's a significant number.

00:03:09.000 It's scary stuff.

00:03:11.000 Yeah.

00:03:12.000 Who could have predicted that this was ever going to happen?

00:03:14.000 Not me.

00:03:16.000 So what's it like in Toronto these days?

00:03:19.000 It hasn't been bad.

00:03:20.000 We're almost back to normal.

00:03:22.000 So that's been very exciting.

00:03:24.000 Yeah.

00:03:24.000 For me, I've been writing this book for the last year.

00:03:27.000 So my life hasn't actually changed that much, which probably sounds really crazy.

00:03:30.000 But when you're writing a book, you're literally inside working all the time.

00:03:34.000 Yeah.

00:03:35.000 So explain to people what the book is.

00:03:37.000 So the book is called The End of Gender.

00:03:39.000 And before I go any further, I'm going to explain the title because some people I think miss When I announced it on social media, some people were getting upset because I think they thought I was taking a very, very far left progressive view.

00:03:51.000 And I consider myself to be a liberal.

00:03:52.000 I'm definitely not far left, but you know, I have liberal values.

00:03:55.000 I'm pro-science.

00:03:56.000 And so the end of gender, I think people thought that I meant I was saying that gender is basically whatever you want it to be.

00:04:03.000 It's based solely in self-identification.

00:04:06.000 You know, there's no tethering to biology.

00:04:08.000 And that is not what I'm saying with the book at all.

00:04:10.000 And I think if anyone's ever read my columns or seen my appearances or they listened to the talk that I had with you last time I was on your show, that's definitely not what I'm saying.

00:04:18.000 I'm saying the complete opposite, that the fact that science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting, is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender.

00:04:28.000 And that's leading to the demise of our understanding of it in an accurate way.

00:04:32.000 If you don't mind, just to start things off, will you please give your credentials and tell people what you do?

00:04:37.000 Yeah, so I have a PhD in sexual neuroscience research.

00:04:41.000 I made the transition from being an academic sex researcher to being a journalist.

00:04:47.000 So now I write about the science of sex and gender.

00:04:50.000 I write about the politicization of science and academic censorship.

00:04:54.000 And so now I have this book out, and I can talk a bit about how I got here, if that would be helpful.

00:04:59.000 Sure, sure.

00:05:00.000 Yeah, so when I was doing my PhD, I very much loved being a sex researcher.

00:05:08.000 I really thought I was going to stay in academia.

00:05:09.000 And in the last few years, I noticed that there had been a change in the climate in terms of what people could study, what people could talk about as scientific experts.

00:05:18.000 And one area in particular was about gender transition in children.

00:05:22.000 So every single mainstream news piece was saying that for these children who say they're born in the wrong body, The best approach for them would be early transitioning.

00:05:31.000 So that means to take on a new name, identify as the opposite sex, usually get a haircut, start dressing like the opposite sex. 0.98

00:05:38.000 But from a scientific perspective, all of the research actually shows that most of these kids, the vast majority of them, are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood.

00:05:47.000 They're not going to be transgender. 1.00

00:05:50.000 And at that time, there's literally maybe one or two news articles that called into question this narrative of early transitioning.

00:05:58.000 So I wrote an op-ed about this, citing the scientific research, and I asked my colleagues and mentors in academia, you know, what do you think?

00:06:06.000 I knew that there was going to be some backlash to it.

00:06:09.000 And one of my mentors said to me, because I said, should I wait until I have tenure?

00:06:25.000 It's a very strange time when it comes to talking about certain subjects because it doesn't matter what the science is.

00:06:32.000 There are specific narratives that you have to adhere to in today's climate.

00:06:38.000 I, like you, am also left Yeah.

00:06:56.000 I look at it the same way I look at far right.

00:06:59.000 I look at far right extremists and far left extremists.

00:07:01.000 But something happened where far left ideology has permeated our culture when it comes to gender.

00:07:08.000 And I don't understand it.

00:07:11.000 If you don't adhere to this ideology, people want to say that you have no compassion, you're evil, you're bigoted.

00:07:20.000 I had Abigail Shearer on the podcast recently.

00:07:23.000 I love Abigail.

00:07:25.000 She's great, and she's very brave, and I saw what happens when you go against this narrative by having her on.

00:07:31.000 Men's Health wrote a piece about me saying I'm fanning the flames of hate because she was talking about a 4,000% increase, 4,000% increase in teenage girls identifying as trans and rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which is real. 0.92

00:07:47.000 I mean, this is a real scientific phenomenon.

00:07:49.000 It's 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of people identifying as transgender.

00:07:55.000 Thank you.

00:07:55.000 It's amazing.

00:07:57.000 She was talking about this in this very specific way, talking about awkward teenage girls and about how these girls have, you know, really odd situations in terms of the way they deal with people socially, and then all of a sudden they're praised for deciding that they're trans,

00:08:16.000 and then they get these clusters of friends that also decide that they're trans, which is very strange. 0.97

00:08:25.000 So if Men's Health, which is a fucking men's magazine, is going to write articles calling you a hateful person because you're discussing it. 0.97

00:08:34.000 There was no hate in that podcast at all. 0.98

00:08:36.000 It was just discussing it, like, what is causing this?

00:08:39.000 Why is this?

00:08:40.000 And what can be done?

00:08:42.000 And why are we so quick to just...

00:08:45.000 I mean, we can assume that people are troubled in all sorts of different ways, but we can't assume they're ever troubled when it comes to gender.

00:08:53.000 It's very bizarre.

00:08:55.000 I think what you were saying with why it's gone so far left, I do think a lot of this is coming from empathy, which is a good thing.

00:09:03.000 And I have to say, with regard to the issue of transitioning children, I do support tradition in adults.

00:09:09.000 I think it can help adults who are transgender.

00:09:12.000 I think if you're an adult, it's your decision, it's your body, it's no one's place to tell you what to do.

00:09:17.000 But I think a lot of this is coming from...

00:09:19.000 So I grew up in the gay community, and I remember seeing how homophobic people could be toward my friends, And I think things have changed.

00:09:27.000 Things have gotten better in some ways.

00:09:29.000 I think homophobia still exists and we can talk about that because I just That's kind of what we're seeing in the book.

00:09:35.000 But I think for a lot of people, they look at that and they say, okay, we were wrong about that.

00:09:40.000 We were wrong to treat gay people differently.

00:09:42.000 We were wrong to say that being gay is something you can change.

00:09:45.000 So now they've gone completely in the opposite direction saying, okay, no matter what anyone says with regard to their identity, with regard to their gender, this is something that we should not challenge.

00:09:55.000 We should fully support.

00:09:56.000 And if you question it in any way, even in the most nuanced or sensitive way, as I try to, Yeah, that's what's strange.

00:10:06.000 It's an ideology.

00:10:07.000 It's rigid.

00:10:08.000 It's like a religion.

00:10:10.000 It is.

00:10:11.000 It is.

00:10:11.000 I think I find people who are...

00:10:15.000 You know, middle of the road, they're not sure what to think.

00:10:17.000 If they read my work or they talk to me, they say, oh wow, I never realized that.

00:10:21.000 I didn't know the science said that.

00:10:23.000 And they changed their perspective.

00:10:24.000 But I think for some people, if they are very much invested in the identity or very invested in activism, or for whatever reason, this ideology means something to them, It doesn't matter what the science says,

00:10:40.000 they will find something to pick at.

00:10:42.000 And especially with desistance, which is that the research I was mentioning where it shows that most kids will not feel gender dysphoric anymore when they reach puberty.

00:10:52.000 Some people cannot accept it and they will call you transphobic, they'll call you bigoted.

00:10:57.000 And I don't think I'm any of those things.

00:10:59.000 I'm really just trying to help prevent these children from making potential It's essentially a very bad decision that they're going to regret.

00:11:05.000 And especially now, we're seeing in the UK that this is happening where more de-transitioners are saying, this was something I regret, this was a mistake, why did the adults not challenge me?

00:11:15.000 I really think, so right now we're in August 2020, I think within the next five years or maybe a little bit longer, we're going to be seeing an explosion of children coming out and saying, I did not want to transition, this was a mistake, and it's really going to be awful.

00:11:28.000 Well, we're already seeing that.

00:11:29.000 There's a lawsuit that was very prominent in the UK recently about a young girl who transitioned.

00:11:34.000 Do you know the lawsuit I'm talking about?

00:11:36.000 I do, yeah.

00:11:37.000 Kira Bell.

00:11:37.000 Yeah.

00:11:38.000 I mean, it's heartbreaking because she's essentially ruined her body to the point where she's not going to be able to have children. 1.00

00:11:48.000 In many cases, a lot of these girls can't have orgasms ever again. 1.00

00:11:51.000 No, exactly.

00:11:53.000 But I think in North America, we are still very much in denial about this.

00:11:58.000 Whenever I'm on a show, if I'm on TV and I talk about this, the backlash after is just crazy.

00:12:04.000 And I'm thinking, people need to wake up.

00:12:06.000 I'm trying to stop this from happening, right?

00:12:09.000 The whole point of writing this book and saying these things is trying to prevent what's about to happen.

00:12:13.000 Yeah, the backlash, it's very strange because a lot of the backlash is from trans folks, and it seems that they equate any criticism or any examination of even children, even small children transitioning to transphobia.

00:12:30.000 You must hate.

00:12:32.000 And I get there... 0.91

00:12:33.000 There has to be some trans people that as children knew that they were women or they were the opposite sex, that they were in the wrong body. 0.92

00:12:42.000 There has to be.

00:12:44.000 I don't disagree with that.

00:12:46.000 I think we both don't.

00:12:47.000 The question is how many And how do they make that decision?

00:12:51.000 And how many are actually being influenced by other factors, external?

00:12:55.000 Children are very malleable.

00:12:57.000 And that's part of the problem with making lifelong decisions as a six-year-old.

00:13:02.000 If you're a six-year-old male and you decide that you're a female and you go through the transition and then you realize you're a gay man later in life, there's no recourse. 0.79

00:13:12.000 There's nothing you can do to rectify that.

00:13:14.000 That's what's terrifying about this.

00:13:16.000 And that you're not allowed to talk about it.

00:13:17.000 You're not allowed to say that.

00:13:20.000 Right, right.

00:13:22.000 And when I do point that out, people say that I'm using the gay community as a shield or something like that.

00:13:28.000 But medical professionals need to be the ones to do their job because it is their job.

00:13:33.000 They should be doing proper assessments with these children and adults too to determine what is the best way for you.

00:13:40.000 And that's the only way they can really determine on a case-by-case basis Whether transitioning is going to help somebody, but they can't do their jobs right now.

00:13:47.000 Everyone I know that is ethical in the field has left or they stopped working with these patients because they don't feel they can do their job properly.

00:13:56.000 So what you have instead is the people who are currently operating are activists and they will really facilitate whatever patient wants them to do, whether or not that may or may not be the right thing for them.

00:14:06.000 Yeah, how did we get to this point?

00:14:08.000 Now, how did we get to this point, first of all, in academia?

00:14:10.000 You come from academia.

00:14:12.000 How did we get to this point where some subjects cannot be discussed?

00:14:16.000 Where, like, you were talking to that other professor and they were saying, even if you get tenure, this is not going to protect you.

00:14:21.000 Like, what happened?

00:14:24.000 Within sex research in particular, I feel like sex research was the carrying the coal mine because we saw this coming decades ago in that one professor, Michael Bailey at Northwestern University, there's been a long history that's ugly between sex researchers and transgender activists. 0.52

00:14:39.000 And Michael Bailey wrote a book, I think it was 2003, that really enraged some activists.

00:14:45.000 And I have to say, trans activists don't speak for all transgender people.

00:14:49.000 I have many trans people who've reached out to me over the years telling me that they actually agree with me.

00:14:54.000 But I feel activists tend to be the most vocal.

00:15:03.000 We're good to go.

00:15:05.000 We're good to go.

00:15:10.000 We're good to go.

00:15:16.000 And so anyone who has tried to counter trans activists since then also face really serious, you know, repercussions.

00:15:24.000 So I think that's been part of it.

00:15:25.000 And I think also with more broadly with this ideology that students are being taught this and they graduate, they go out into the real world.

00:15:32.000 They get jobs.

00:15:34.000 And a lot of people, even five years ago, I would say, dismissed a lot of this ideology, especially around gender.

00:15:39.000 They would say, that's only in academia.

00:15:41.000 That is not something that's actually gonna affect me in my real life.

00:15:45.000 But here it is now.

00:15:47.000 It affects everybody.

00:15:48.000 There's no way that this is not affecting you.

00:15:50.000 I think it's just a question of Yeah.

00:16:15.000 I talk about sex differences, you know, and these are all things that are considered taboo and I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation.

00:16:24.000 We're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people.

00:16:28.000 In fact, I'm always very clear to say that it doesn't.

00:16:31.000 Well, I think this is one of the reasons why you're so important because you're obviously a very intelligent, kind person and you're not a hateful person and you're not in any way discriminating.

00:16:41.000 You're looking at this as a scientist and you're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science, particularly when it comes to really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender.

00:16:55.000 I would love to talk to you about what you just had, though.

00:16:57.000 When you said that there's not a spectrum when it comes to gender, that's a common narrative.

00:17:01.000 So what do you mean by that, like there's not a spectrum?

00:17:05.000 So there are two genders.

00:17:07.000 And so gender, for 99% of us, our biological sex is our gender.

00:17:12.000 Biological sex is determined by gametes, which are either eggs or sperm.

00:17:16.000 So there are no intermediate gametes.

00:17:19.000 So gender is either male or female. 0.90

00:17:21.000 So this I do not think...

00:17:23.000 It validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people.

00:17:27.000 I think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities.

00:17:30.000 We don't have to reconceptualize what gender or sex And also for intersex people in particular, most of them want to live within the binary.

00:17:39.000 They want to live as either male or female. 1.00

00:17:41.000 They don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else.

00:17:48.000 I mean, this is what's being published in scientific papers now.

00:17:50.000 They refer to gender as, quite literally, a galaxy. 0.94

00:17:53.000 So, I mean, it's ridiculous. 0.98

00:17:56.000 That's pretty crazy. 0.90

00:17:57.000 Not just a spectrum, but a galaxy?

00:17:59.000 250 billion types?

00:18:01.000 Is that what it's like?

00:18:03.000 Like all the stars?

00:18:04.000 That's crazy.

00:18:05.000 When you say there's just two genders, first of all, that's going to enrage people, right? 1.00

00:18:11.000 But second of all, you can see that there are very feminine men and very masculine women.

00:18:18.000 And if that is true, what accounts for that?

00:18:23.000 It goes back to the prenatal environment.

00:18:26.000 So I definitely don't deny that they're gender-atypical people. 1.00

00:18:28.000 I, as a woman, I look very feminine, but I'm actually very gender-atypical.

00:18:32.000 I've always felt more masculine, and even to this day, I feel much more masculine than feminine.

00:18:36.000 Wait a minute.

00:18:36.000 Wait, hold on a second.

00:18:37.000 You feel masculine?

00:18:38.000 Uh-huh.

00:18:39.000 Really?

00:18:40.000 That's crazy.

00:18:41.000 Yeah, you would never know.

00:18:42.000 Oh my god, you don't even seem remotely masculine.

00:18:45.000 What determines that you are masculine?

00:18:49.000 I would say, well, from a young age, I'd always been more like boys.

00:18:52.000 I looked like a boy when I was younger.

00:18:54.000 I've always just, my friends were always boys and guys and I've always felt, I've just always felt more like a man, just like you feel like a man, right?

00:19:02.000 Gender is one of those things in terms of how we describe it is so personal and that's why I feel it's so important to focus on the evidence because without that, what do you really have?

00:19:12.000 So what it really, what it comes down to is testosterone exposure in the womb.

00:19:17.000 Right, but how are you like a man?

00:19:22.000 If you see, well, how can I say this?

00:19:25.000 It's hard for me to not go in digging into personal examples, right?

00:19:29.000 But I would just say I've always been more like boys.

00:19:31.000 If you look at how boys behave and how girls behave, I've always been more like the boys.

00:19:36.000 Okay, like in your interests and...

00:19:39.000 You're into fast cars.

00:19:41.000 I'm sure it's my behavior.

00:19:41.000 I'm into fighting, right?

00:19:43.000 I'm a martial artist.

00:19:44.000 When I was young especially, I used to always get into fistfights with the boys and I would actually win.

00:19:50.000 But that's hilarious because you seem very feminine to me. 0.71

00:19:53.000 That's very odd.

00:19:55.000 People always say that to me.

00:19:56.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:19:57.000 So this spectrum that does exist, even though there are two genders in your opinion, a male gender and a female gender, Well, it's not in my opinion.

00:20:07.000 It's not in my opinion.

00:20:08.000 It is.

00:20:09.000 Okay.

00:20:12.000 Scientifically, right?

00:20:13.000 There's two genders. 1.00

00:20:14.000 But this is obviously a hot-button subject, right?

00:20:17.000 Just saying there's two genders would get you cancelled. 1.00

00:20:20.000 Oh, I know.

00:20:21.000 I know.

00:20:22.000 We can talk about the non-binary movement because I'm actually very concerned in terms of what that movement is about. 1.00

00:20:28.000 And I am all for, listen, I'll use whatever pronoun someone wants me to use.

00:20:31.000 I'll be respectful.

00:20:33.000 My issue is when people, again, say that this is backed by science when it isn't.

00:20:37.000 We're talking about what it's actually about.

00:20:39.000 So for a lot of people who are identifying as non-binary, I think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia.

00:20:46.000 So a lot of people who identify as non-binary, especially among people who were born male, they will normally come out as gay.

00:20:53.000 As a gay man and then decide to be non-binary.

00:20:56.000 Or for people who are born female, many of them don't, they feel a lot of discomfort around their bodies, the changes they experience being a woman.

00:21:04.000 They don't like the attention that they're getting.

00:21:06.000 They don't want to be sexualized.

00:21:08.000 For some of them, they have exposure to pornography at a young age, and they think that that is actually what sex is gonna be like, and they think, I don't want that, so how do I avoid that?

00:21:19.000 Well, if I become something other than a woman, I will not have to experience this.

00:21:23.000 And no one is saying to them, number one, pornography, I'm definitely not anti-porn.

00:21:27.000 I used to write for a very prominent men's magazine, so I have no issue with that.

00:21:32.000 I just think we have to, Be able to have a conversation saying, you know, if you feel different, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a woman, or with regards to pornography, it's entertainment.

00:21:47.000 Right.

00:21:49.000 Let's start with the non-binary aspect.

00:21:52.000 I know people that claim to be non-binary, and I'm trying to say this in a nice way.

00:22:00.000 I think some of them, it's a cool thing to say you are.

00:22:06.000 There's a thing today where if you can say you're non-binary, like, oh, it's part of being woke.

00:22:13.000 You know, it's part of, I mean, not saying that there aren't people who don't feel like they don't fit into either male nor female, or maybe they feel asexual, or maybe they just don't feel like whatever the models that exist in society apply to them.

00:22:25.000 They don't feel like they connect with those models.

00:22:30.000 But the term non-binary, how recent is that?

00:22:36.000 How long has that been around?

00:22:38.000 It's been around for decades, but I would say in terms of the popularity, one study showed that among millennials, about 10% identify as a third gender.

00:22:46.000 So this includes non-binary, gender-neutral, agender.

00:22:51.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:22:52.000 It's really picked up recently.

00:22:53.000 It's kind of a woke thing, right?

00:22:55.000 Sorry?

00:22:56.000 I'm sorry.

00:22:56.000 It's hard to do Skype, right?

00:22:58.000 It's kind of a woke thing.

00:23:01.000 I think it's a way for some people to signal their politics.

00:23:04.000 And I get it.

00:23:05.000 I get that feeling of you don't quite feel like maybe if you're born female that you're really feminine or girly.

00:23:11.000 But I think the only way to fight back against those stereotypes is to say, I'm still a woman, right?

00:23:17.000 I don't need to be super girly to be a woman.

00:23:19.000 And similarly, if you're a man, if you're a feminine man, you can still be a man and be a feminine man. 0.98

00:23:23.000 There's nothing wrong with that.

00:23:25.000 Right, but that's where people feel like we should be describing it as a spectrum.

00:23:30.000 That's where they feel like if you look at Jason Momoa versus Andy Dick, obviously these are two very different kinds of men, and that's where people would apply the concept of a spectrum.

00:23:48.000 Right, but why can we not just say they're both men?

00:23:50.000 I don't understand why just because someone is slightly different that they suddenly need to be categorized as, you have to reconceptualize what it means to be a man just because they're different types of men.

00:24:01.000 I feel like that's very outdated.

00:24:05.000 It's interesting because I don't know why they do that.

00:24:07.000 I just think that for some people it gives them comfort to think that they are not exactly the same as other men who are different than them in radical ways, like more masculine or more feminine, and they're more comfortable with this concept of a spectrum.

00:24:22.000 There's clearly a physical spectrum, right?

00:24:24.000 There's a spectrum in terms of body types and ectomorphs and endomorphs and mesomorphs and there's a spectrum in terms of height and size and weight and all these different things.

00:24:32.000 I think a lot of people would like there to be a spectrum in terms of gender.

00:24:37.000 The sense I get from people who identify this way is that there's some sort of I think if we could talk about this openly and that's what they still decided.

00:24:49.000 My issue also with this movement is for some people they go on and they will get surgery.

00:24:54.000 So double mastectomies are very common among people who are born female who identify as non-binary.

00:24:59.000 And I'm concerned about that because some of these people are very young when they're deciding to get these surgeries done.

00:25:04.000 So if we could have this conversation and if psychologists could do their job and determine is this really the best outcome for you, then that's again their business.

00:25:14.000 But We can't have this conversation at all.

00:25:16.000 We're not talking about whether there might be other reasons why someone feels this way, and that maybe just opening your mind to other possibilities would actually be helpful.

00:25:25.000 I hear what you're saying.

00:25:26.000 I think we can have this conversation, and I think that's why we're having it.

00:25:31.000 You and I, you're very brave to have me on.

00:25:34.000 We are having this conversation, but I feel like most people in the general population would be horrified.

00:25:38.000 They'd be scared.

00:25:38.000 I don't think it's most people in the general population.

00:25:40.000 I think it's a small percentage of people that are very angry at these conversations.

00:25:46.000 And I think the reason why is because they believe that these conversations equal hate.

00:25:54.000 Or these kind of conversations equal either homophobia or transphobia.

00:25:58.000 I think the problem is the existence of that at all.

00:26:04.000 If there was no homophobia, if it did not exist, if there was no transphobia, if it didn't exist, if everyone, like, I know that you are not those things.

00:26:13.000 You're not homophobic or transphobic, nor am I. And I think if we all knew, this is one of the reasons why you and I can have this conversation.

00:26:20.000 We know there's no hate here.

00:26:23.000 If there's no hate, you can talk about it for what it really is.

00:26:26.000 But when you have this conversation, the problem with woke culture is that it's automatically assumed that because you question the narrative, That you're doing so from a discriminatory point of view.

00:26:42.000 You're discriminating.

00:26:43.000 You're doing it from some sort of a prejudice.

00:26:46.000 You're doing it with a negative feeling about the subject.

00:26:50.000 And I don't think that's accurate.

00:26:52.000 And I think most people recognize that it's not accurate.

00:26:55.000 It's a small, very vocal minority of people that object.

00:27:00.000 And this is where the problem lies, is that the people that you were referring to as the activists, and it's not even all the activists, it's just the really angry ones, they're so vocal about it, and they go so far out of their way to attack, that it's not a subject that you could even breach.

00:27:15.000 And I mean, because I just had this podcast the other day, it was only a couple weeks ago with Abigail, and now I'm having it with you, like, oh my god, it's gonna compound, it's gonna be crazy.

00:27:23.000 But listen, you and I had scheduled this.

00:27:26.000 You and I had scheduled this quite a while ago.

00:27:28.000 The Abigail thing came up fairly last minute because she had been on Bridget Phetasy's podcast and no one else wanted to have her on.

00:27:37.000 And she has this book about a subject that's very...

00:27:39.000 And as a person who has daughters, this to me is a very important subject.

00:27:43.000 I also have friends who have daughters and their daughters' friends are doing this.

00:27:49.000 They're going through this whole transition and they...

00:27:52.000 My friend who has this daughter, he's like, I don't think your friends are trans.

00:27:56.000 I think they're caught up in this whole movement, and when there's four or five of them that are deciding that they're trans, it doesn't seem like the numbers match up.

00:28:08.000 It seems like there could be some other influences here.

00:28:10.000 This could be something that seems like a cool thing to do.

00:28:12.000 They're all getting praised at school.

00:28:14.000 This is a real psychological and cultural phenomena.

00:28:18.000 This is not a hateful thing to discuss.

00:28:20.000 And this is why I'm pushing back against it, and this is why I think it's so important that people like you, who are academics, like people say, well, hey, you want to talk about trans, why don't you have an expert on?

00:28:29.000 That's what you are.

00:28:30.000 You actually are an expert.

00:28:32.000 Yeah, and the crazy thing is even experts are really scared to talk about this because of what will happen to them if they do.

00:28:39.000 Because I'm not in academia, and I'm very fortunate, I'm so, so grateful to the editors who will work with me, people who will have me on their show like you, I am free to say what I think.

00:28:48.000 But whereas...

00:28:49.000 If you are tied to any sort of academic institution, medical organization, even scientific organizations, you cannot say these things even though they are backed fully by the science.

00:29:00.000 And the thing is, this should not be a partisan issue.

00:29:03.000 So, you know, in terms of you were saying that no one was having Abigail on, I'm actually amazed that liberal journalists and liberal outlets, very, very few of them will touch this subject.

00:29:14.000 And it really doesn't matter what your politics are.

00:29:16.000 At the end of the day, it's about What is right for these kids or what's right for anybody who's identifying this way?

00:29:22.000 It's not about being left or right.

00:29:24.000 Well, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

00:29:26.000 I think the issue is most people that have the kind of reach that maybe my podcast has are part of a large organization.

00:29:34.000 And when you're a part of a large organization, there's just so much politics involved.

00:29:39.000 There's so many different influences and there's so many different people that have opinions about this that are based on the current narrative.

00:29:50.000 You cannot disagree.

00:29:52.000 You must follow the ideology.

00:29:56.000 And if you don't, you must be hateful. 0.98

00:29:58.000 You must be a bigot. 0.97

00:29:59.000 There must be something wrong with you.

00:30:00.000 And that's where I'm really very thankful that there's people like you that push back on this, that are brave enough to do that.

00:30:08.000 Even with rapid onset gender dysphoria.

00:30:10.000 So, I mean, this is documented in research, right?

00:30:13.000 And even still, that's considered a quote-unquote myth.

00:30:16.000 People say, like I write about this in the book, people are saying that people who decide to detransition, they were not really trans or they didn't really have gender dysphoria or, you know, they just dismissed them.

00:30:28.000 And I'm thinking, This movement especially is so much into how you feel and your quote-unquote lived experience and being validated for who you are.

00:30:37.000 So how can you say that to a group of people who say, this is what I experienced?

00:30:41.000 They're completely...

00:30:42.000 And the way they're being also ignored by the medical professionals and told that essentially if they change their mind, well, that's your problem.

00:30:50.000 You deal with it now.

00:30:52.000 The detransitioners I talk to, I'm really, really... 1.00

00:30:55.000 Aghast at what is happening because they really have nowhere to turn.

00:31:00.000 It's also the options if you want to transition in terms of what's available today in 2020. I'm trying to say this gently.

00:31:10.000 They're very surgically crude.

00:31:14.000 There has to be cutting involved.

00:31:17.000 There has to be anesthesia.

00:31:19.000 There's a lot going on.

00:31:21.000 I can't wait for the day where, whether it's through CRISPR or some other form of genetic manipulation, you really can become a woman.

00:31:30.000 You really become a biological man or a biological woman, where we have a grasp of the biology to the point where science can actually alter the person's chromosomes.

00:31:45.000 Alter who they are.

00:31:46.000 I mean, that's gonna be fantastic.

00:31:48.000 I think that's gonna eliminate so much and so many problems, but I mean, you know, what are we hundreds of years away from that?

00:31:54.000 I mean, I don't know but for now my fear is What you have said previously and you said earlier on this podcast that you're gonna see a wave of lawsuits Yeah, and it's gonna be really really sad and I think these children will be saying why did my parents Allow me to do this.

00:32:15.000 Why did medical professionals not question me, not stop and think about this?

00:32:21.000 I mean, children say all kinds of things and it's really scary to me that adults are taking the things that they say at face value.

00:32:28.000 Yeah, when Abigail told me that in some places you can self-diagnose as being trans at as young as 15, and you can go to certain...

00:32:39.000 Yeah, you can get...

00:32:39.000 Because medical consent, it depends on the age of medical consent.

00:32:42.000 So in some places, like I believe Oregon, it's like 15. So you can go without parental consent.

00:32:48.000 But even still, a lot of cases, these interventions are started even younger.

00:32:52.000 Yeah.

00:32:53.000 If the parents will sign off on it.

00:32:55.000 I've heard of girls, people born female as young as age 12 getting double mastectomies. 0.99

00:33:02.000 Wow.

00:33:03.000 Wow.

00:33:05.000 The thing that drove me crazy is the fact that you don't even have to have any counseling, anything.

00:33:10.000 You self-diagnose and they'll give you testosterone.

00:33:12.000 I mean, that seems insane.

00:33:14.000 That seems like there's some sort of an agenda.

00:33:17.000 I mean, whether it's...

00:33:19.000 Just woke ideology or whatever it is that would allow a doctor to think that's a good idea.

00:33:25.000 I just don't understand what kind of a lack of understanding of young people. 0.50

00:33:29.000 You're not even fully formed.

00:33:32.000 Your frontal lobe isn't even fully formed.

00:33:33.000 And you're making these radical decisions at 15 years of age.

00:33:39.000 With testosterone, too.

00:33:40.000 I spoke with Buck Angel.

00:33:42.000 I interviewed him for the book.

00:33:43.000 He was amazing.

00:33:44.000 He actually has a website.

00:33:45.000 I want to make sure I get it right, actually.

00:33:48.000 I think it's ftmhealth.com.

00:33:50.000 He has information because he was saying to me how transgender care and health really needs to be improved.

00:33:56.000 A lot of medical professionals will prescribe testosterone, and they do not fully understand.

00:34:02.000 One of the side effects is uterine Cramping and atrophy.

00:34:06.000 So for these individuals, when they start taking it, they'll be cramping, they'll be in a lot of pain, they'll be bleeding, and they don't know why, and it's due to the low estrogen.

00:34:15.000 Well, I've had Buck Angel on the podcast before.

00:34:18.000 I love that dude.

00:34:19.000 And that's a perfect example of, you know, that's a trans man who is, like, clearly, that's way better for him than to be a female. 0.54

00:34:30.000 I I mean, he's happy.

00:34:32.000 When you're around him, you're like, oh, that makes sense.

00:34:34.000 You're a man.

00:34:35.000 And we even had a conversation on the podcast.

00:34:38.000 He asked me, would you refer to me as a man?

00:34:40.000 I'm like, yeah, of course I would.

00:34:42.000 You're a man.

00:34:43.000 Because you're not born a man biologically doesn't mean I don't think you're a man. 0.92

00:34:47.000 I mean, he's covered in tattoos and he's jacked.

00:34:50.000 He looks like a dude.

00:34:51.000 Seems like a dude.

00:34:52.000 Talks like a dude.

00:34:52.000 I mean, I'm super comfortable with that.

00:34:56.000 I'm not a bigot, but I am confused.

00:34:58.000 I'm confused by this narrative and the fact that everyone is being really bullied into adhering to it.

00:35:07.000 And I don't understand the motivation for a lack of nuance and discussion.

00:35:12.000 That's what drives me crazy.

00:35:14.000 And for some reason, people think that if you are not personally trans, this should not be a subject that you cover.

00:35:22.000 And I'm like, listen, I'm a parent.

00:35:24.000 I see what this is.

00:35:26.000 Children, they're so easily influenced and by so many different factors.

00:35:33.000 Whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you can't tell me that nothing is happening to these kids that is changing and affecting the way they perceive things. 0.99

00:35:50.000 Which is fine for the most part, but when it comes to radical life-altering decisions like changing your gender at 12 years old, like, fuck, are you sure? 0.98

00:35:59.000 Are you sure this is the right move? 0.99

00:36:01.000 And why can't I talk about this?

00:36:03.000 Like, why is this so goddamn taboo?

00:36:05.000 And the reason why it's so taboo is because they want to bully you into not talking about it because when you do talk about it, it's exposed that it's not rock-solid, that it is strange, and that there is a problem. 0.86

00:36:18.000 There are really trans people.

00:36:20.000 No one's in denial of that.

00:36:21.000 You're not in denial.

00:36:22.000 I'm not in denial.

00:36:24.000 I'm 100% comfortable with...

00:36:26.000 I want adults to be able to do whatever they want.

00:36:29.000 But we're not talking about adults.

00:36:31.000 You're talking about babies.

00:36:33.000 You're talking about children.

00:36:35.000 And that's when things get very, very strange to me.

00:36:38.000 I just don't understand how many people are adhering to this, and I think they're doing it out of cowardice.

00:36:43.000 I think they're doing it out of fear of repercussions of these discussions.

00:36:46.000 Even if you are clear in your intentions, and you're not hateful, and there's no bigotry in your heart, it doesn't matter.

00:36:55.000 They don't want you talking about it because they have a very specific narrative, and they don't want anyone to stray from that, and if you do stray from that, they'll attack you.

00:37:04.000 And I get it.

00:37:05.000 I get some of the concerns in that, yes, this information could potentially be used to hold trans people back.

00:37:11.000 Some people could take this information and say, okay, well, this means that no one should be allowed to transition ever.

00:37:16.000 But I think we have to be realistic about it.

00:37:20.000 And if you hide this information, what it does then for people who are not in favor of trans rights, they're going to find it and say, see, this is why.

00:37:28.000 This is why they hide this information.

00:37:31.000 Because it feeds into whatever negative ideas they have about the community.

00:37:36.000 I'm totally open.

00:37:36.000 I'll put it out there.

00:37:37.000 I'm totally happy to talk to anyone from the community who would like to speak with me.

00:37:41.000 I would love to build bridges and build understanding.

00:37:43.000 I just feel like there's a lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust.

00:37:47.000 And I understand where that's coming from, but at the same time, I don't know how else to solve this issue.

00:37:52.000 Scientists also can't even do this research now because people get upset and say, if you are not from this community, We're good to go.

00:38:22.000 I think some of the concern is that scientists have an agenda and they're doing this research as a way to invalidate trans people or something like that.

00:38:32.000 But I think you have to have faith that that's not, especially in this climate, there's no way someone can get away with doing anything like that now.

00:38:40.000 And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the narrative that activists want.

00:38:47.000 Yeah, it's a very strange time and I don't know where we go from here.

00:38:51.000 I mean, I never thought we would be here in a place where there were these taboo subjects that are critical to the development and the growth of human beings and you can't discuss them.

00:39:03.000 I mean, and how do we get past this?

00:39:05.000 I don't see a path out.

00:39:07.000 I don't see a map of the territory that makes sense to me.

00:39:12.000 I think what's going to happen, unfortunately, is that more of these children will be de-transitioning and changing their minds to the point where society is not going to be able to ignore it.

00:39:21.000 That's what I see coming.

00:39:24.000 So let's talk numbers.

00:39:26.000 So what I was saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of kids that have experienced rapid onset gender dysphoria within the last 10 years.

00:39:37.000 What exactly are the numbers again?

00:39:40.000 So within one study in particular of the individuals who surveyed the children, 40% of them had a friend group that had at least half of them identifying as transgender.

00:39:52.000 And so this worked out to be 70 times what you would see in the general population.

00:39:57.000 And I don't know how you can look at that and not think something is going on here.

00:40:02.000 There's something else going on here.

00:40:04.000 It can't just be social acceptance because if it were, why is it we don't see this also happening in boys?

00:40:10.000 Why do we not see this happening across different ages?

00:40:13.000 It's very specific to adolescent girls and young women.

00:40:16.000 Now you're a woman and you're a woman who in many ways you say you identify as being more masculine.

00:40:23.000 What do you think it is about growing up as a woman and maybe you could speak to this because you did grow up and felt more masculine.

00:40:32.000 What do you think it is that makes women more vulnerable to this? 0.92

00:40:37.000 I think, so I have been critical of feminist orthodoxy, and I'll call things as I see it, but I do think on some level sexism does still exist in society.

00:40:46.000 I don't think it's so terrible that women can't pursue what they want to achieve in life, but I think for young women especially, when they encounter situations like this, or they experience certain things they don't like because they are female, if they have the option of opting out of that,

00:41:02.000 why wouldn't you?

00:41:03.000 I feel like I almost can't blame them because There are certain things that women have to deal with that men don't have to deal with and vice versa. 0.85

00:41:10.000 I think there are certain things that boys and men have to deal with growing up that women don't have to deal with. 0.99

00:41:15.000 But I think it's because this is so socially acceptable now and they're also, like you said, they're praised when they decide that they want to come out as a man or they want to identify as a third gender or they don't want to be female.

00:41:27.000 And I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of Do you think this is a phase that culture is going through?

00:41:48.000 With this particular population or you think more broadly?

00:41:52.000 With the leap in rapid onset gender dysphoria, do you think that in many ways it might actually be connected to transphobia in that because there is transphobia people are actively trying to combat it so they're praising people who are trans which might encourage people who are socially awkward to think they are because they get encouraged for that.

00:42:15.000 And then maybe when we reach a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted just like people with blue eyes and brown eyes and whatever.

00:42:26.000 No one cares anymore.

00:42:27.000 Is that what it's going to take for things to balance out and for us to actually find out?

00:42:34.000 Is there a spectrum when it comes to trans people?

00:42:36.000 Are there people that are mildly trans?

00:42:39.000 Just like there's people that are you know mildly masculine or people that are like very very feminine but also a man?

00:42:48.000 Okay well let me start with the first part of your question was why do people go along with this?

00:42:53.000 I think Part of it might be because it's more socially acceptable, right?

00:42:57.000 And people don't want to rock the boat.

00:42:59.000 I think other people, they mean well, and they think that this is going to help the community and to tell people who counter this narrative that they're hateful or whatever, that this is going to somehow bring about positive change.

00:43:12.000 I missed the second part of your question.

00:43:14.000 I forgot it already.

00:43:16.000 But then if being trans is a spectrum, I don't know, because I'm not trans, so I don't want to speak for trans people, but I think there are some people for whom transitioning is the right choice, and I think for some people...

00:43:28.000 Maybe they will be able to grow comfortable, right?

00:43:30.000 And we can't talk about that.

00:43:32.000 That's seen as transphobic.

00:43:33.000 And also this whole conversation about conversion therapy, when there is no such thing as conversion therapy for gender identity.

00:43:39.000 There's conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and it doesn't work.

00:43:44.000 But if a clinician sits down with a child who says that they want to be the opposite sex or they're gender dysphoric, and they ask them what else is going on in your life to better understand that, That's called conversion therapy now, and now that's being banned.

00:43:56.000 I think that's been banned in something like 20 states.

00:43:59.000 So now clinicians, again, can't do their job.

00:44:03.000 That's a critical part of figuring out who's going to benefit from transitioning.

00:44:09.000 Conversion therapy, when we think about it, we usually think about it in terms of gay people, right? 1.00

00:44:14.000 Like, pray the gay away, that kind of shit. 1.00

00:44:16.000 Right, that doesn't work. 1.00

00:44:17.000 Of course, yeah. 0.99

00:44:18.000 Well, it's usually run by gay guys, too. 0.90

00:44:21.000 There's usually religion involved, right?

00:44:24.000 But conversion therapy in terms of children, like, what does that entail?

00:44:33.000 You mean in terms of children with gender dysphoria?

00:44:36.000 Yes.

00:44:37.000 Well, okay, so activists, and now this is being written into law, it's called conversion therapy because it sounds scary.

00:44:45.000 It's not the same thing as conversion therapy for sexual orientation because, again, sexual orientation is biological, so it can't be changed.

00:44:52.000 But for gender, for young children especially, who say they feel like they're the opposite sex, gender, that can change over time, as we see in the research, that they will outgrow those feelings, right?

00:45:03.000 It's not appropriate to call that conversion therapy because that's a natural process that would have happened on its own.

00:45:10.000 So for a clinician to sit down and just try to understand that, it should not be seen as somehow harmful, right?

00:45:19.000 But it is seen as harmful.

00:45:20.000 It's seen as abusive.

00:45:21.000 So if some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks them what's going on in your life, how do you feel, that's considered conversion therapy?

00:45:33.000 So are they supposed to just, on this subject only, automatically go along with everything that the child says?

00:45:41.000 Whereas you wouldn't do it with any other issue that the child had that required therapy.

00:45:47.000 No, exactly.

00:45:48.000 But that is what's happening.

00:45:49.000 There's no differential diagnosis because someone might present with, say, gender dysphoria, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why they might feel that way.

00:45:57.000 You know, last time I spoke to you, we talked about how autism can play a big role in that sometimes people with autism, and I do think people with autism deserve love and respect, but sometimes one of the symptoms is fixating and having particular interests.

00:46:12.000 And so for these children especially, they might go through phases of being really into a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby.

00:46:19.000 And then gender might also be one of these things.

00:46:21.000 And my colleagues who are clinicians have noticed that.

00:46:24.000 For some of these kids, they fixate on gender for a bit and then they move on to something else.

00:46:28.000 What was your motivation for writing this book?

00:46:31.000 What got you to actually sit down in front of the computer and start banging on the keys?

00:46:37.000 All the questions that people have been asking me over the years about these subjects and the fact that I see so much misinformation being ingrained in our society, it's not even being questioned now.

00:46:46.000 So say something like gender is a social construct.

00:46:49.000 In 2017, James Damore wrote his Google Memo, his infamous Google Memo.

00:46:53.000 I wrote a column for the Globe and Mail defending it.

00:46:56.000 And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse.

00:47:00.000 I see that reported everywhere.

00:47:02.000 Gender is a social construct.

00:47:07.000 There's no connotative evidence.

00:47:08.000 There's no citations, nothing to back it up.

00:47:10.000 People will just say that and then they'll go on to whatever else they were saying.

00:47:13.000 And this will be in scientific papers sometimes.

00:47:15.000 This will be in journalism.

00:47:16.000 And I'm thinking, that's not factually accurate.

00:47:19.000 So for me, it's this feeling that I get, I think, for some people who deny this science, particularly around gender, it's coming from Possibly good intentions that they think this is what what we need to do to help move society forward But I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that because when you try to hide the truth You try to suppress reality.

00:47:41.000 It doesn't go away And I think we can both agree that a lot of this narrative comes from this desire to avoid the criticism desire to avoid the angry mob Yeah, I think so.

00:47:56.000 Who wants to deal with that?

00:47:59.000 Who wants to deal with that?

00:48:00.000 No, no one does.

00:48:01.000 So when you say gender is a social construct, people go, thank you. 1.00

00:48:05.000 And then they're like, good, you've complied.

00:48:07.000 You've complied with the narrative.

00:48:09.000 And that's what it is.

00:48:10.000 Instead of going, well, what do you mean by that?

00:48:12.000 What do I mean by that?

00:48:12.000 What are you, a bigot?

00:48:13.000 And then all of a sudden it's chaos, right?

00:48:15.000 And then people are angry.

00:48:17.000 Gender as a social construct is a weird thing to say.

00:48:21.000 You know, and I've had weird conversations with people about it where they deny the difference between male and female.

00:48:26.000 And I'm like, okay, well, if you buy a puppy, and it's a boy puppy or a girl puppy, and you wanted a boy puppy, but it's a girl puppy, do you complain?

00:48:35.000 Like, what happens there?

00:48:36.000 Do you say gender's a social construct?

00:48:39.000 No, man, that's a girl puppy, bro.

00:48:41.000 I mean, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings.

00:48:44.000 With human beings, we've decided that we are so complex, we're so weird, that all the rules of standard biology that apply to all the other species on planet Earth do not apply to us.

00:48:55.000 Yeah, and what's also frustrating is that people will then say, oh, the newest science shows that this is true.

00:49:02.000 And I'm thinking, what science are you talking about, right?

00:49:04.000 But people will Well, I guess the newest science shows that.

00:49:08.000 So what can you say?

00:49:08.000 So in the book, that's the thing.

00:49:10.000 I provide citations to all the science so you can read it and make up your own mind.

00:49:14.000 And if people are telling you something to the contrary, you can say, well, go look at this science.

00:49:18.000 Yeah, that is a lovely one that people love to say.

00:49:21.000 The newest science.

00:49:23.000 You can't just say that.

00:49:25.000 But you can.

00:49:26.000 With a lot of people, you can.

00:49:27.000 And they go, oh, I didn't know.

00:49:29.000 I didn't know about that new science.

00:49:31.000 Science is just data.

00:49:32.000 Science is repeating things and proving that they're repeatable, showing patterns, showing information.

00:49:39.000 You can't say the newest science without citing it.

00:49:43.000 No.

00:49:43.000 And you know, one of my close friends is Josh Barnett.

00:49:45.000 And through the process of writing this book, I would say to him, I feel like I'm standing outside and pointing at the sky and saying the sky is blue.

00:49:57.000 And that's what it's gonna be like, I think, when people start reading this book.

00:50:00.000 And I ask anyone who, because the things I say are misconstrued all the time.

00:50:07.000 People either, I think, are misrepresenting what I say.

00:50:10.000 There are certain things that people say I say that I would never say.

00:50:13.000 And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about where I stand on these issues.

00:50:20.000 Because I think a lot of the time people, especially activists, are people who are really invested The way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda.

00:50:33.000 And I'm thinking, if you really care about these populations that you claim to care about, why would you not actually be going after the people who are actually hateful, who are actually saying the things that you claim I say?

00:50:44.000 And I think what a lot of it is, is about clout.

00:50:46.000 It's not actually about making positive change.

00:50:49.000 Yeah, anybody who thinks gender is a social construct needs to meet Josh Barnett.

00:50:53.000 That's a man, okay?

00:50:55.000 There's no argument there.

00:50:57.000 He identifies as one right now.

00:50:58.000 He definitely does.

00:51:00.000 Yeah, I mean, I think we're living in a very confusing time.

00:51:06.000 And I think all the...

00:51:09.000 The reasons that we discussed earlier in terms of the blowback that people get and in terms of when you're compliant, the support that you get is all influencing the way people behave and this willingness to go along with that narrative because you're terrified of being criticized,

00:51:26.000 you're terrified of being attacked.

00:51:28.000 That's where we find ourselves and this is not the left that I know.

00:51:32.000 This is what's so strange.

00:51:33.000 I mean, I guess I'm old.

00:51:35.000 I mean, I'm 52. When I was young, the left was tolerant, open-minded, and absolutely committed to freedom of speech.

00:51:43.000 That doesn't seem to be where we're at now.

00:51:46.000 We've gotten into some really radical place where the left is now, they've almost weaponized a lot of left-wing ideological values to combat right-wing Values.

00:52:00.000 It's like they've gotten more loony to deal with loony people on the right and don't even realize they've become their own enemy.

00:52:07.000 They've become something that the left was never – the left was always, you know, when I was a young person, was always the most tolerant of the groups.

00:52:16.000 And it just doesn't seem to be the case now.

00:52:18.000 It seems to be that they're only tolerant if you follow the ideology that they follow.

00:52:24.000 And if you don't, there's no discussion about it. 0.63

00:52:26.000 You're a hateful person, and there's this immediate hot take. 1.00

00:52:29.000 You hate. 1.00

00:52:31.000 You do this.

00:52:31.000 It's bigotry.

00:52:34.000 There's no room for discussion, information, no room for actual science, no room for understanding the nuance of psychology and of human beings. 0.85

00:52:46.000 Yeah, and I don't think it's helpful because, yeah, I think the far right is a concern, but the response to that or the solution to that is not to double down and go completely in the opposite direction where you're just as insane.

00:52:59.000 Because I think most liberals...

00:53:02.000 Most liberals don't feel like the far left really encompasses anything that they stand for, and it's in fact alienating them from these issues.

00:53:11.000 Yeah, I would agree with that entirely.

00:53:13.000 There's so many of us that are on the left that are so confused now.

00:53:17.000 They feel like we're people without countries.

00:53:19.000 Like, this is not, you know what I mean?

00:53:21.000 It's like, well, who am I now?

00:53:23.000 Because I'm not these people that want to defund the police and light the federal buildings on fire, so what am I? You know, you have to be that to be left.

00:53:31.000 Have you had any conversations with people, trans activists or any people that opposed you or angry at you where you were able to sway them?

00:53:43.000 I had one conversation.

00:53:44.000 I wrote in the book actually, there was one activist who was willing to sit down with me and I interviewed her and I was really grateful for that.

00:53:51.000 She was lovely.

00:53:51.000 She was very civil with me.

00:53:53.000 We disagreed about basically everything, but I found it was a helpful conversation because I do think about it.

00:53:57.000 I think about the feedback.

00:53:58.000 I try to follow what people angrily tweet at me and comment on my work and things like that because I do think it's important to be open to Other perspectives.

00:54:10.000 I don't know that I'm able to change anyone's mind, but that's okay.

00:54:14.000 I think the evidence speaks for itself.

00:54:16.000 And I think if people want to listen to that, that's their business.

00:54:19.000 And if not, that's fine too.

00:54:21.000 But I do find, like I said, people who aren't sure, they haven't made their mind up yet, seem to be a little bit more...

00:54:28.000 They appreciate the information.

00:54:40.000 Now, when you sat down with this trans activist, or this person, and she disagreed with you on all these things, what were they specifically that she disagreed on?

00:54:52.000 Well, with the pediatric transition, that's one big point.

00:54:56.000 Also, things like the discussion of trans women and whether trans women should be considered women full stop.

00:55:03.000 And I do consider trans women to be women, but I also think there are some differences, and I don't think it should be considered hateful to point them out.

00:55:11.000 I will, again, use the pronoun someone wants me to use, and there's no issue there.

00:55:16.000 But in some contexts, it's very important that we are able to talk about this, because like with fighting, There are serious implications if someone who is a trans woman fights someone who is born female or something like prisons.

00:55:32.000 I used to work with sex offenders, both clinically and in a research capacity.

00:55:38.000 Sex offenders cannot be taken at face value.

00:55:41.000 If they say they identify as female and they get put into a female prison, How does anyone who works in forensics think that's a good idea? 0.56

00:55:54.000 If you spend any time with sex offenders, you know that you cannot base any decision on what they tell you.

00:56:02.000 Yeah, that's a very extreme example.

00:56:04.000 What was her response to that?

00:56:07.000 Well, basically that's not reflective of everyone.

00:56:11.000 And I get that.

00:56:12.000 It's true.

00:56:13.000 It's true.

00:56:14.000 And I think there could potentially be cases where there are people, sex offenders, who have gender dysphoria.

00:56:20.000 And so yes, their concerns should be taken into account.

00:56:23.000 But I feel like we've gone so far...

00:56:26.000 In one direction, like you're saying, you can't even have this conversation or that certain topics are taken off the table without any discussion because of the fear that there's going to be some sort of backlash or people are going to think that you're a bad person for even considering it.

00:56:41.000 And what about, you said that you guys disagreed about infants.

00:56:46.000 Oh, with the children transitioning.

00:56:48.000 What was her position?

00:56:49.000 I feel that's one subject that it's really...

00:56:52.000 Sometimes with activists, you really can't make any...

00:56:58.000 It's just that we come to a standstill.

00:57:00.000 And in the book, I do list a number of criticisms that activists and certain groups have pointed out with regard to why early in transitioning is better.

00:57:10.000 There was one study that last year that got a lot of attention, say with brain imaging, saying that the brains of these children are more like the opposite sex.

00:57:20.000 And so this supports the idea that they should transition at a young age.

00:57:23.000 But the thing is, so For people who are trans, their brains do tend to be shifted in the direction of the sex they identify as when you use brain imaging techniques.

00:57:32.000 But the thing is, for all of these studies, their sexual orientation is gay. 0.82

00:57:38.000 So in sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, when we look at sexual orientation in the context of trans people, it's based on their birth sex.

00:57:47.000 So say a trans woman She was born male, identifies as female. 0.98

00:57:52.000 So if she's attracted to men, that's considered gay because her partner would share her birth sex.

00:57:58.000 So for all these studies on trans people, they're conflated with sexual orientation because everyone in the study is also gay.

00:58:05.000 So we don't know if the brain differences we're seeing are due to them identifying as the opposite sex or due to them being gay. 0.95

00:58:12.000 So with this study with the children, they did not Report the sexual orientation so we can't know because most kids who a lot of kids who are gender atypical right and who are gender dysphoric again There's a correlation there with being gay when they're older So I don't know why that wasn't even pointed out because that study got so much information so much coverage and anyone who knows anything about sex research knows that How do you account for the seemingly large number of men who transition to become women who become

00:58:42.000 lesbians? 1.00

00:58:45.000 That's a very good question and I'm not sure if you read that part of the book.

00:58:49.000 No, I didn't.

00:58:50.000 Okay, so it's...

00:58:52.000 Very, very controversial.

00:58:53.000 And before I say anything about this, I want to really make clear, I do not want this information to be used to hold back trans people.

00:59:01.000 I don't want this to be used to support negative stereotypes about trans women in particular.

00:59:07.000 But for some trans women, their desire to transition stems from sexual arousal and the idea that becoming a woman is actually sexually arousing. 0.64

00:59:21.000 Really?

00:59:21.000 Yeah, and I chose to write about this because, again, I have so many people who reach out to me saying that they experience this and they don't know what it is.

00:59:29.000 And it's called autogynophilia, which translates, that's a Greek word, to say love of oneself as a woman.

00:59:36.000 And it's a paraphilia, which is an unusual sexual preference.

00:59:40.000 And paraphilias were my research expertise when I was in academia.

00:59:43.000 So I wrote about this, and no one has really talked about this in the mainstream, And because I want people who feel this way to be able to understand themselves and to know there's a whole bunch of information out there for you.

00:59:55.000 If you Google this, everything that comes out is that this is not a real phenomenon.

01:00:00.000 You know, this is made up by hateful sex researchers to invalidate trans people.

01:00:05.000 This is quote-unquote outdated medical research. 0.73

01:00:08.000 This is pseudoscience.

01:00:09.000 It's not.

01:00:10.000 Everyone in the field knows it's real, including clinicians.

01:00:22.000 So, this is where it's confusing to me, because if you do transition, if you're a male and you transition to female, if you are aroused by the idea of being a female, and you're aroused by women, so you want to become a lesbian,

01:00:38.000 essentially, but if you transition surgically, You're going to remove your ability to have an orgasm.

01:00:46.000 You're going to remove your ability to even be aroused as a male would be.

01:00:53.000 Not necessarily.

01:00:54.000 Some people are able to maintain their sexual functioning after surgery, but not everyone necessarily has bottom surgery also.

01:01:02.000 Some people might just choose to have top surgery or might choose to undergo hormonal interventions.

01:01:07.000 Okay, so we're talking about very different things, right?

01:01:10.000 So would you agree there's a spectrum...

01:01:15.000 In regards to trans people.

01:01:17.000 So there's trans people that are fully transitioned to look and appear 100% female, even naked. 1.00

01:01:27.000 Versus someone who is trans, not denying that they're trans, but they still have a penis, a functioning penis. 0.99

01:01:37.000 I think there are differences in terms of outcome, yeah, in terms of what's beneficial for people. 0.99

01:01:42.000 That's what I would say.

01:01:43.000 But I know of at least one, no, I know of two that became lesbians and did have bottom surgery. 1.00

01:01:52.000 So if that was the thing, if that was what excited them, this idea of being a woman sexually excited them, once you transition and have bottom surgery, am I right in saying that you can't have orgasms? 0.54

01:02:07.000 No, some people are still able to have orgasms after.

01:02:11.000 How are they doing that?

01:02:13.000 Well, because the tissue is inverted, so you can still maintain some of the sensation. 0.95

01:02:19.000 But they don't have testicles anymore, right?

01:02:23.000 No, but they still have the nerve endings. 0.99

01:02:27.000 So they still have the feeling of ejaculation?

01:02:31.000 Well, no, no. 0.99

01:02:32.000 But that's a male orgasm, right? 0.95

01:02:36.000 It can still feel pleasurable, though. 0.67

01:02:38.000 It feels good, but they don't orgasm.

01:02:41.000 Because you cannot say that to a woman. 1.00

01:02:43.000 You cannot say, oh, you orgasmed.

01:02:45.000 It felt good, right?

01:02:45.000 Well, you did.

01:02:46.000 You orgasmed.

01:02:46.000 They would get mad at you, right?

01:02:48.000 They would say, no, I didn't orgasm. 0.88

01:02:51.000 Right?

01:02:52.000 I have not undergone the surgery, so I can't speak from experience, but I have heard people say that they are able to maintain orgasm after.

01:03:00.000 Do you believe them?

01:03:02.000 I do.

01:03:04.000 I don't know what that means, though.

01:03:08.000 Isn't there a specific physiological action that happens when a female has an orgasm? 1.00

01:03:23.000 I can't think of the word now. 0.95

01:03:25.000 G-spot.

01:03:26.000 Is that replicable with males?

01:03:30.000 I don't know if there's any science on this.

01:03:33.000 I was going to say, is that scientifically proven? 0.88

01:03:35.000 I don't know why I'm fixated on trans orgasms. 1.00

01:03:41.000 I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. 0.86

01:03:45.000 Is it been proven that it's possible to have an orgasm even when you're...

01:03:50.000 I would say that there's...

01:03:52.000 Sorry to cut you off.

01:03:53.000 I would say there's definitely a risk of losing it, of losing that sensation and losing sexual function.

01:03:59.000 So that's also why I think it's important to be able to talk about this because for people who experience these feelings...

01:04:07.000 Maybe, you know, transitioning may or may not be right for them. 0.75

01:04:10.000 I do think some people with autogynephilia, yes, transitioning can help them.

01:04:13.000 I don't think autogynephilia is a reason to stop someone from transitioning.

01:04:16.000 But if there's someone who can feel that way and not transition, as you're mentioning, they will maintain, you know, full sexual functioning.

01:04:23.000 So that's something that should be taken into account.

01:04:26.000 And again, I'm sorry, define once again autogynephilia?

01:04:31.000 Autogynephilia.

01:04:32.000 So it's auto as in self, gyna is woman, and philia is love.

01:04:38.000 It's the work of Ray Blanchard, if anyone is curious to look it up.

01:04:41.000 But there will be so much pushback when you do, though.

01:04:45.000 Just be aware that a lot of the mainstream information is going to say it doesn't exist.

01:04:52.000 How difficult is it to do research on this subject today?

01:04:58.000 Impossible.

01:04:58.000 No, it's not absolutely impossible.

01:05:00.000 It's very, very, very difficult.

01:05:02.000 And I can probably count on maybe a few fingers the number of people I know who are doing it and are not ideological and are ethical as scientists and have no agenda and they're not trying to push any particular findings.

01:05:16.000 They're just doing the research as a good scientist would to see what they find.

01:05:22.000 And these people that are doing this, are they primarily in the United States?

01:05:27.000 Are there other countries that have different perspectives on this, where they're more open to this kind of research and just purely from a scientific standpoint trying to get an understanding of what's actually happening?

01:05:40.000 Most are in North America.

01:05:42.000 It really just depends, I think, also on where you're able to get funding.

01:05:46.000 So that's one of the key issues, right, in terms of the research you do.

01:05:50.000 If you can't get your study funded, then you can't do anything.

01:05:55.000 So we're very lucky in Canada.

01:05:56.000 I would say we have a really good...

01:05:58.000 My colleagues have been able to get funding quite readily here, but it's more the political climate, I think, that is really turning people away from studying subjects that would be of interest and that I think are very important.

01:06:12.000 When you see a culture like Thailand, for instance, that has a large number of ladyboys, what do you think causes that? 1.00

01:06:22.000 Is that an attitude difference?

01:06:24.000 Is it a cultural difference?

01:06:26.000 Is it a biological difference?

01:06:28.000 Or is it just a myth that there are a larger percentage of transsexuals in certain places?

01:06:36.000 If there is a larger percentage of people who...

01:06:39.000 I mean, they're known for it.

01:06:41.000 Transition, right.

01:06:42.000 I would think it could be culturally determined in some ways, too, because there are some cultures where being a feminine... 1.00

01:06:50.000 Someone who's born male who's very feminine may be encouraged to transition because it's more acceptable to be a... 0.97

01:07:02.000 If we go back to the children, I do think for some of the parents who are in support of allowing their child to transition, I think it is coming from homophobia because their sense is that if they have a very feminine son over a masculine daughter, I think more so for the feminine sons,

01:07:18.000 if they don't want a gay son, well, if this child transitions to female, then she will appear to be a straight woman when she's attracted to men when she gets older. 0.51

01:07:28.000 I had a conversation with someone where they were praising Iran, and they were saying Iran is less homophobic, or excuse me, less transphobic than the United States.

01:07:38.000 And they were talking about how many people transition over there.

01:07:41.000 And I was like, do you know why?

01:07:43.000 It's because they literally can be thrown in jail if they're gay men. 0.96

01:07:48.000 One of the reasons why in some Middle Eastern countries they transition is because there's actually laws against homosexuality.

01:07:56.000 So for homosexual men, they're left with a couple options.

01:08:00.000 The possibility of being thrown in jail or sexually transitioning. 0.64

01:08:05.000 And so what did this person say when you brought that up?

01:08:09.000 Stammered.

01:08:11.000 There's nowhere to go with it.

01:08:13.000 I mean, sometimes people like to say things because they have a thought in their head that they think, you know, they haven't really fleshed it out.

01:08:19.000 And they're like, well, this is, look, look at this.

01:08:21.000 Well, you know, some places in the Middle East are very open-minded.

01:08:24.000 And I was like, that's not open-minded.

01:08:26.000 Like, they're homophobic.

01:08:27.000 They want these people to appear to be women. 1.00

01:08:31.000 And it's just, you know, it's very unfortunate.

01:08:35.000 I think there are trans people. 0.74

01:08:37.000 And I think there are homosexual people.

01:08:40.000 And they're different.

01:08:41.000 And I think the only way we're going to find out who's who and what's what, and let people make a real, honest, balanced choice, is to have no bigotry.

01:08:51.000 And that includes bigotry of information.

01:08:54.000 That includes keeping people from discussing and exploring subjects without hate.

01:09:04.000 Which is what you're doing and this is why it's so crazy that people are attacking you and they go after your work because I think in many ways people that are on the fence about this stuff, it throws them to the wrong side.

01:09:17.000 It makes people possibly transphobic.

01:09:31.000 Yeah, I've had some trans people reach out to me saying that, that the things that some of these activists stand for are not And they say that they're actually quite mortified that these are the things that some people,

01:09:47.000 not even trans activists, I think some allies even, some people who are not transgender who decide to take it upon themselves to speak for the community because they think that's, I guess, the right thing to do.

01:09:57.000 And actual trans people are saying, you don't speak for us.

01:10:00.000 We don't want these things that you are saying.

01:10:03.000 It's about power, I think.

01:10:05.000 It's about power and control, and it's not even about the people that they claim to be protecting.

01:10:10.000 Well, I think it's also about conformity.

01:10:14.000 There's a thing that people do when they are something, whether they're a right-wing Trump supporter.

01:10:19.000 They want everybody to be a right-wing Trump supporter.

01:10:21.000 And they want to argue that position.

01:10:23.000 And I think people do that with everything.

01:10:26.000 I think they do it with being a vegetarian or a vegan.

01:10:28.000 I think they do it with being a yogi.

01:10:31.000 I think they just love other people doing exactly what they're doing.

01:10:35.000 And I think, unfortunately, that is also the case when it comes to some trans activists.

01:10:41.000 They want more trans people out there.

01:10:45.000 Right.

01:10:46.000 And I can see that logic because by inflating the number of people who identify this way, and so also with the trans umbrella, it's now widened to also include third genders or anyone who is even just simply gender non-conforming.

01:11:01.000 So I think part of this is driven by the desire to inflate numbers so that that can, in their mind, justify acceptance.

01:11:10.000 But I don't see why we can't just say, yes, we should accept everyone.

01:11:12.000 We don't have Call people trans.

01:11:16.000 We don't have to widen the definition of what it means to be trans.

01:11:19.000 And even within the community, you have people who are trans, who have transitioned, who have medically transitioned, who are saying people who identify as a third gender or who are mildly gender nonconforming, they're not the same as me.

01:11:33.000 And it's not appropriate to say we're the same.

01:11:36.000 And again, from my perspective, if someone is struggling with their feelings around gender, it's not helpful to lump them all as one because again, they're coming from different root causes.

01:11:45.000 So if you can't talk about what the root cause is, you're not going to help someone.

01:11:49.000 Yeah, I would agree, and I think that one of the things we might be encountering here is that the acceptance of this is fairly novel, and the new perception of trans people, this new acceptance of it, is we're working it out, you know?

01:12:04.000 And I think in the process of working it out, you've got a lot of virtue signaling, you've got a lot of people that are conforming and they're not exactly sure what they're conforming to, and we're trying to figure out how How to determine what's natural, what's not, what's right,

01:12:19.000 what's wrong, what's healthy for people, what's hateful, what's not hateful.

01:12:25.000 There's just so much confusion.

01:12:27.000 And in the middle of this chaos, it's very difficult to sort it out.

01:12:34.000 Yeah, and I think also when you're saying with what's natural, I think some people, part of the push with the children is to say, look, if kids are feeling this way and society accepts us and children, then again, this is something that people can't argue against, right?

01:12:48.000 I think it's part of a larger goal to facilitate acceptance for adults as well.

01:12:53.000 And again, there's no reason why we can't do that.

01:12:57.000 Tokenize these children as a way to do that.

01:13:00.000 What is the argument for doing it with children?

01:13:02.000 Is the argument that the earlier they transition, the quicker they'll be happy, the more time they'll spend in the gender that they belong to rather than the gender of their birth?

01:13:14.000 Right, and also that if they block puberty that they will not go through these physiological changes that are going to make it more difficult for them to identify as the opposite sex.

01:13:25.000 Yeah, this is a really, one of the things that was disturbing to me that didn't make any goddamn sense was people saying that you can block their hormones and then if they change their mind, it's easily reversible.

01:13:36.000 And I'm like, you don't understand human development. 0.68

01:13:39.000 That's crazy to say that.

01:13:41.000 Now, recently, that's been disavowed.

01:13:44.000 Recently, there was, I forget what scientific body came out.

01:13:50.000 I think it's the NHS in the UK. Yeah.

01:13:53.000 Yes.

01:13:53.000 I think you're right.

01:13:54.000 And they said, well, actually, no.

01:13:58.000 There's radical changes to the body that are irreversible when you block hormones at a very young age.

01:14:03.000 I had this conversation with someone on the podcast just a year or so ago where they were saying, if the child changes their opinion, you could always reverse it.

01:14:12.000 I'm like, what are you talking about?

01:14:14.000 If you're introducing estrogen to a six-year-old and you're telling me when they're 14, it's going to be the same as if they didn't introduce estrogen and they didn't block their hormones.

01:14:22.000 That's crazy talk, but that shows to me where people's minds are when it comes to this.

01:14:27.000 They want something to be true, and they argue it as if it's true.

01:14:32.000 And then it goes along with this whole conformity thing, where everybody has to conform to show that they are on the right side of this ideology, and that if you don't, you'll be attacked.

01:14:43.000 Well, the thing is too, this is what is being promoted, right, in the mainstream in terms of anything to do with trans issues.

01:14:49.000 This is what you see is that these blockers are perfectly...

01:14:53.000 We don't have the data.

01:14:54.000 We don't know what the long-term effects are.

01:14:56.000 And it's...

01:14:59.000 What I want to know is why the parents are not being told this, right?

01:15:03.000 That those changes were made.

01:15:04.000 Were the parents who have signed off on this treatment, were they made aware of the fact that these guidelines have been changed, right?

01:15:11.000 These are things that people in the field have been very critical of, but this has not been discussed more widely.

01:15:16.000 So now that this has been changed publicly, Do all the parents who have signed on for this treatment know that?

01:15:22.000 I don't think any of them do because no one reported on it.

01:15:24.000 And what are the repercussions?

01:15:26.000 Two outlets reported on it, I should say.

01:15:28.000 Right.

01:15:28.000 And it was very silent in a lot of ways.

01:15:30.000 It was just they put it out there and that's it.

01:15:32.000 But what are the repercussions and what do these parents do when they find this out?

01:15:37.000 And they find out that these blockers they're giving their children, unlike what they've been told, they aren't reversible.

01:15:43.000 Right.

01:15:46.000 What are they going to do?

01:15:47.000 I have a number of parents who I've met over the years who asked me what they think about it.

01:15:53.000 That entire chapter I wrote, chapter five, was all the advice I wish I could tell them face to face, but it's very difficult when a parent is asking you this and you don't feel like it's...

01:16:04.000 What I think about their parenting decisions.

01:16:06.000 But you can see the pain in their eyes.

01:16:08.000 This is very difficult.

01:16:09.000 And I think for a lot of them, they were told if they don't allow their child to transition, that child is going to commit suicide.

01:16:14.000 And that's not true.

01:16:15.000 So that's another thing that's being promoted very widely.

01:16:18.000 The belief that if these children do not transition, they are at high risk of suicide.

01:16:25.000 I don't fault these parents for going along with it because if you, I mean, you're a parent, Joe.

01:16:30.000 If someone said that to you, I think you would similarly feel like you don't have a choice.

01:16:35.000 Yes.

01:16:36.000 We're spending a lot of time talking about the negative aspects of transitioning, even if it's just transitioning as children or rapid onset gender dysphoria that occurs in teenage girls, particularly with autism.

01:16:50.000 But let's try to be positive about this.

01:16:54.000 Let's look at the positive aspect.

01:16:56.000 And I wanted to know, did you cover that at all?

01:16:59.000 For what What are the characteristics or what groups of people find that this actually does work out well for them, even at a young age?

01:17:12.000 And how would a young person absolutely and definitively know, or is it just completely personal, whether or not they are in the wrong gender and what are the benefits of transitioning early?

01:17:24.000 There was one meta-analysis, I believe it was of 27 studies, that did show for people who have transitioned that they do experience a lessening of feelings of gender dysphoria and their life satisfaction goes up and other comorbid issues that they might have like anxiety,

01:17:42.000 depression, substance use, all those things go down.

01:17:45.000 So like I said, I do think transitioning can help people.

01:17:47.000 And I think, you know, I'm glad that you mentioned that because I don't want it to be all doom and gloom and I don't want I want it to seem like this is such a heavy, negative issue.

01:17:56.000 I do think that this can help people.

01:17:58.000 And I think it's good that there is more awareness about this.

01:18:01.000 And I do think it's good that society is on board with helping trans people and supporting them.

01:18:06.000 In terms of how people determine whether it's the right choice for them, I think, again, it's a good mental health professional who can determine, go through a proper assessment.

01:18:16.000 And if you make this decision, so I should clarify, I'm not a clinician.

01:18:19.000 I don't work with patients anymore.

01:18:24.000 Colleagues, you know, this is a decision that you're making over a period of time, and you've really asked yourself if this is the right choice for you, in which case, yeah, I think that's great.

01:18:36.000 And there's an issue with a lot of trans people of being accepted.

01:18:42.000 And how much of a factor is that in their happiness?

01:18:46.000 I mean, that's one of the things that I would say is probably responsible for a lot of this promotion of positivity or promotion of people being accepted.

01:18:57.000 You know reluctant to criticize people or or discuss in any negative way trans issues is that they want to support people that are doing this very difficult life-changing decision and When when they are doing that It's such a difficult thing to discuss,

01:19:18.000 right?

01:19:18.000 Because I know the suicide rates are very high with trans people.

01:19:22.000 And it doesn't seem to matter whether they transition or not.

01:19:26.000 I believe the suicide rate...

01:19:30.000 I see what you're saying, yeah.

01:19:32.000 There's one study that showed that the suicide rate is 20 times what would be seen in the general population after transitioning.

01:19:41.000 So some people will say that's a sign that transitioning doesn't help.

01:19:44.000 But then other people will say that's a sign We're good to go.

01:19:52.000 We're good to go.

01:20:04.000 If you were to design the study to be able to make cause and effect conclusions, you would need to do random assignment and things like that.

01:20:12.000 But they're basically saying that if these people hadn't transitioned, there's a possibility that they would have fared even worse.

01:20:19.000 So I think it goes back to just it being on a case-by-case basis.

01:20:24.000 I don't think we should be generalizing in either direction.

01:20:28.000 Yeah, that's a good perspective.

01:20:30.000 I think that's kind of what I was getting at.

01:20:33.000 It's like, what is it that's causing these...

01:20:36.000 Is the suicide rate so high because of society's lack of acceptance?

01:20:41.000 Is the suicide so high because of their own personal dissatisfaction with...

01:20:47.000 You know, being born in the wrong gender and what can be done? 1.00

01:20:50.000 Is that why people are so accepting?

01:20:53.000 Like maybe that's what it is that causes people to get angry when you criticize anything involving trans.

01:21:00.000 It's almost like they want people like us who are not trans to step out, step away and let them sort it out.

01:21:07.000 Does that make any sense?

01:21:09.000 I get it.

01:21:10.000 And I get how it can probably come across as patronizing for someone like me to step in and have a voice because they'll say, what do you know about what we experience in day-to-day life?

01:21:19.000 I totally get that.

01:21:20.000 And I'm not saying that I do.

01:21:21.000 I definitely don't.

01:21:22.000 But I'm coming from the perspective of being a scientific researcher and knowing the research literature and being non-ideological and seeing...

01:21:33.000 Seeing why there's such an imbalance in terms of this conversation is because people are afraid.

01:21:39.000 So I'm in a position to speak out.

01:21:40.000 I'm not afraid.

01:21:42.000 Do you feel that you're pigeonholed at all by this subject matter?

01:21:46.000 Because this is, I mean, you're a fairly young woman and this is your chosen area of exploration and study.

01:21:57.000 Where do you go from here?

01:21:58.000 Do you feel like this is something you'll be studying for years to come and discussing and talking about for years to come?

01:22:03.000 Or do you feel like there's going to come a point in time where you can want to move on to other subjects?

01:22:08.000 Well, I'm so grateful for this, to write a book.

01:22:12.000 I mean, to write a book is an absolute dream.

01:22:14.000 It's been something I've been wanting to do since I was a child.

01:22:16.000 So I'm super grateful to my editor, Natasha, for that.

01:22:19.000 In terms of me and my career, I mean, there's so many things that I plan to do.

01:22:25.000 In terms of the subjects, this just happened to be the one thing that I wrote my first book about.

01:22:30.000 But even within the book, I cover a bunch of different issues.

01:22:32.000 I talk about sex differences in dating.

01:22:34.000 That's something else I think is really important to approach dating and sex in a way that's evidence-based, which I feel like a lot of young people are not doing today.

01:22:43.000 What do you mean by that?

01:22:47.000 Say in the name of gender equality, one big myth is that men and women should act the same when it comes to romantic relationships and sex, and I think that actually harms both women and men.

01:22:58.000 Now, you're raising your eyebrows, but you'd be surprised at what's out there.

01:23:03.000 I'm confused.

01:23:03.000 What do you mean by that, that men and women should act the same?

01:23:07.000 Well, just that say, so women, some women love casual sex, and I say power to you, but I think most women on average do not enjoy casual sex as much as men.

01:23:18.000 And so, but they're being told that this is how you should behave to be an enlightened woman.

01:23:22.000 And I'm saying, you know, I think it's totally fine to just do you.

01:23:26.000 You don't have to do anything in the name of being an enlightened woman.

01:23:29.000 And if, say, you don't like casual sex, that's totally fine too.

01:23:32.000 And I think also there's a sense that If women require an investment from their partners, I mean in terms of an emotional investment or effort, that that's somehow being high maintenance, but from an evolutionary perspective that's actually beneficial because women want to know that in the event that you do end up carrying this person's offspring that they will be there to help you.

01:23:53.000 I didn't know that this was something that's being promoted.

01:23:56.000 So women are being encouraged to behave like men, to be an empowered woman, to have this non-emotionally connected sexual relationship and to have casual intercourse with people and not worry about it because that's what makes you an empowered woman?

01:24:13.000 Yeah.

01:24:13.000 And I think also evolutionary psychology has a bad rap because people think it's sexist or they think that it says that women should be confined to certain stereotypical gender roles or that women are inferior to men or that women should be sexually submissive.

01:24:29.000 And I'm not saying any of those things.

01:24:31.000 I just think, again, if you try to hide what science and reality is, it's not going to help you.

01:24:38.000 I've never understood that line of thinking.

01:24:40.000 I never understood why people think that evolutionary biology means women should be confined to very specific behaviors or interests. 0.76

01:24:51.000 It's just pointing out that for the most part A lot of women gravitate towards these areas. 0.91

01:24:58.000 It's a fascinating area of study.

01:24:59.000 But there are women cage fighters, you know? 1.00

01:25:02.000 Most men are not cage fighters.

01:25:05.000 But there's a good percentage in the UFC that are women, you know? 1.00

01:25:10.000 I think?

01:25:28.000 They pursue it.

01:25:29.000 I don't think that evolutionary biology, when it shows that the vast majority of women don't gravitate towards those things, I don't think that that's sexist.

01:25:39.000 And I don't think it's encouraging women to have any specific interests.

01:25:44.000 I think it's just laying out data.

01:25:49.000 Right, and there's a biological component to that, right?

01:25:51.000 Because for women who are more male-typical, they're likely exposed to higher levels of testosterone in the womb.

01:25:58.000 But to go back to your earlier point about where I go next, and do I feel pigeonholed?

01:26:02.000 Not really, because I do write about a whole bunch of different issues.

01:26:05.000 Even outside of sex research, I write about politics more widely, more so the cultural aspect of them.

01:26:12.000 But yeah, I feel like I'm at a very fortunate point right now in my career.

01:26:18.000 The reason why I'm saying it is I feel almost pigeonholed by having this conversation with you because I'm having two trans-oriented conversations in the last month or so, and I've had a couple of them before.

01:26:28.000 I've even got messages from people like, why are you interested in this?

01:26:32.000 Well, goddammit, I'm interested in everything.

01:26:34.000 I'm interested in volcanoes, okay? 0.70

01:26:35.000 I'm interested in asteroids.

01:26:36.000 I'm interested in a lot of things.

01:26:38.000 This, to me, I don't...

01:26:40.000 I want people to think that the reason why I'm interested is because I'm discouraging it or I'm anti-trans because I'm absolutely not.

01:26:48.000 But I am also anti-ideologically based thinking that's not logical or fact-based or that discourages people from asking nuanced questions or observing things for what they really are instead of what a certain segment of society wants you to think of them as.

01:27:10.000 Well, and you know, to people who are saying that to you, I honestly believe, give it a couple years and you won't be asking that question anymore because we will see why these conversations were so critical.

01:27:20.000 Because we will see the aftermath of not talking about these things.

01:27:23.000 I think that's true.

01:27:24.000 And I think there's a certain amount of cowardice in not discussing these that really...

01:27:30.000 That really disturbs me.

01:27:32.000 Disturbs me and makes me very fearful.

01:27:35.000 I know people whose children, very young children, they believe are trans and they're going to go through this whole thing and give them hormone blockers.

01:27:46.000 You know, I have no business to tell them differently.

01:27:51.000 I can't do anything about it.

01:27:53.000 I just have to...

01:27:53.000 I don't know.

01:27:54.000 I don't know what's going on.

01:27:55.000 I just know that it's a real thing.

01:27:57.000 And you have to step back and go...

01:28:02.000 What would have happened 20 years ago?

01:28:04.000 What would have happened 30 years ago?

01:28:06.000 Is that better or is this better?

01:28:07.000 Is it better to just let the child become a grown adult and decide for themselves?

01:28:10.000 Or is it better to step in and for whatever reason decide that Billy is really Sally?

01:28:16.000 I don't know.

01:28:17.000 And I don't think anybody knows.

01:28:19.000 And I think that's why this discussion is so important because the ramifications of making a wrong choice or of influencing or of deciding for that child, it's so great.

01:28:30.000 Can I ask you, how do you deal with the pushback?

01:28:33.000 Because it doesn't seem to affect you at all, and I love that.

01:28:36.000 And I'm wondering, has it always been like that for you, or was there a very conscious decision on your part to just not listen to it?

01:28:44.000 I know where I'm coming from.

01:28:45.000 I know I'm not a hateful person.

01:28:49.000 There's a lot of people that have all sorts of crazy opinions about me.

01:28:52.000 There's nothing I can do about that.

01:28:54.000 I just remain true to myself and ask things or discuss things that I'm curious about.

01:29:01.000 That's it.

01:29:02.000 I mean, yeah, there's blowback, but there's blowback with everything I do. 0.85

01:29:06.000 There's not a damn thing I can do without people getting upset at me.

01:29:09.000 I just have too much reach now.

01:29:11.000 There's too much bandwidth.

01:29:14.000 It's too much.

01:29:14.000 Too many people coming in.

01:29:15.000 They see you as a threat.

01:29:18.000 I don't know why.

01:29:19.000 I'm not a threat.

01:29:21.000 If you have a rigid ideology that doesn't make sense and I oppose it, I oppose that idea that this rigid ideology that doesn't make sense should just be left alone and never discussed.

01:29:34.000 It's a threat to your own personal mindset.

01:29:36.000 I'm not doing anything to anyone.

01:29:38.000 I'm just talking about things.

01:29:40.000 So I don't know why they would think of me as a threat.

01:29:43.000 I'm not promoting any hateful behavior or actions at all and I never would.

01:29:49.000 It's not something I'm ever interested in.

01:29:52.000 I want people to be happy.

01:29:53.000 I genuinely want as many people in this world to be happy as possible and to be loving to each other and to be kind and open-minded and to allow people to live their life the way they see fit as long as it's not doing any harm to other people.

01:30:06.000 I don't think that's a bad thing.

01:30:08.000 And as long as I don't think that's a bad thing, and as long as I have this opportunity to express myself the way I really feel, I'm going to continue to do it.

01:30:19.000 And it shows, right?

01:30:20.000 It resonates with your audience.

01:30:22.000 And I'm so glad I get to chat with you semi-face-to-face and actually congratulate you in person for the Spotify deal because it's just amazing.

01:30:30.000 It's really inspiring to see someone who has literally built it from a grown-up and you're self-made.

01:30:38.000 For all of us who are watching, it shows that you can do it too, if you work really hard, probably.

01:30:42.000 Debra, it's weird, you know, because there's nothing I ever planned.

01:30:46.000 And I just keep showing up.

01:30:48.000 I just keep doing it.

01:30:49.000 And then it's become this very strange thing.

01:30:52.000 I remember there was a time I was on stage in Chicago.

01:30:55.000 It was like...

01:30:57.000 It must have been like at least five years ago.

01:31:00.000 And I just asked, I go, how many people listen to the podcast?

01:31:04.000 And I expected it to be just like a few claps here and there.

01:31:08.000 It was 3,700 people in that place at the Chicago Theater.

01:31:11.000 And they went, yeah! 1.00

01:31:13.000 And I went, oh, shit. 1.00

01:31:16.000 And that was the moment I realized, like, oh, shit. 1.00

01:31:19.000 Like, what's happening? 1.00

01:31:20.000 And that was a long time ago.

01:31:22.000 You know, that was five years ago.

01:31:23.000 Where it's at now is very, very, very strange.

01:31:26.000 And if I keep doing it, if I keep having interesting people like you on and keep having these interesting discussions, I guess it just keeps getting stranger and stranger.

01:31:35.000 And I don't know what that means.

01:31:36.000 I really haven't figured it out.

01:31:38.000 Let's just keep doing it.

01:31:40.000 If people are getting mad at this, or getting mad at this discussion, first of all, I know you're a good person.

01:31:45.000 I know you're not a hateful person.

01:31:46.000 And I swear to God, I'm not either.

01:31:48.000 And I don't think there's anything wrong with having these discussions.

01:31:51.000 And if people want me to have a trans person on to show the opposite perspective, I would love to.

01:32:01.000 I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with what we're saying.

01:32:04.000 I really don't and Particularly when it comes to children.

01:32:08.000 I just I can't imagine that there's an argument against what you're saying I Just think the truth speaks for itself, you know and what you're saying in terms of you know where you're coming from I also know where I'm coming from and I know what my intentions are No one else knows so that's at the end of the day.

01:32:26.000 That's how I sleep at night and I know that People are gonna see that what you and I are saying right now is true.

01:32:32.000 So that's really all that matters.

01:32:33.000 It doesn't matter all the people who wanna call me names and say that I'm a bad person because I know that I'm really just trying to protect these children.

01:32:41.000 I think you are as well and nothing but love and respect for all the people that do transition and are happy with it nothing but love and Just I know that I know that you're coming from a good place and I really do hope that it does some good and that there are people that listen to this and do get they get a different perspective and Perhaps do a little research and realize like we're but we might be about to make a terrible mistake that you can't change and Yeah,

01:33:09.000 yeah, that's all I can say about it.

01:33:11.000 Do you have plans to write another book?

01:33:15.000 Well, this book has just come out, so I'm very excited about promoting it and talking about it.

01:33:22.000 But, you know, in terms of what I want to achieve with my career, yeah, I want to do hopefully more books.

01:33:27.000 I want to do more TV. I would love to do documentaries, more podcasts, everything.

01:33:32.000 You know, I feel very lucky.

01:33:33.000 I feel journalism has opened up this freedom that I unfortunately did not have as an academic scientist.

01:33:39.000 Well, I think the world of journalism and particularly the world of open and free media, new media like podcasts, it really needs people like you.

01:33:51.000 It really needs academics who have decided to use the freedom that you get from new media.

01:33:57.000 And explore these subjects in a non-confined way.

01:34:02.000 So many academics feel confined by institutions and by the politics involved in these institutions to the point where these subjects can't get discussed because of these rigid ideologies.

01:34:13.000 I think it's so important that people like you do express yourself the way you're doing and bravely.

01:34:20.000 I think it's really, for our culture, it's very, very important.

01:34:25.000 Thank you.

01:34:26.000 But, you know, also with journalism, I would say, you know, I get it because I think some journalists who write about very far left themes, I don't know that they necessarily agree with what they're writing about.

01:34:37.000 But at the end of the day, you need a paycheck.

01:34:39.000 And if that's what you need to write about, then that's what they write about because it can be hard, right?

01:34:45.000 And journalism is a very competitive industry.

01:34:49.000 So I think...

01:34:50.000 I like the fact that there is so much more room now in terms of people doing their own thing.

01:34:56.000 I'm very, very grateful for the platforms who have me on and the editors and outlets who let me write for them because I think there needs to be more of a balance.

01:35:05.000 And I think people also are growing tired of only one acceptable way of thought being promoted, right?

01:35:12.000 People are sick of it.

01:35:13.000 I think they really are.

01:35:15.000 And I think what you're saying is very true in terms of journalism.

01:35:17.000 Journalism is so important, but unfortunately for many journalists, the traditional avenues of journalism, whether it's print-based or even television, those things are drying up.

01:35:28.000 And they're forced to sort of...

01:35:31.000 They're forced to...

01:35:36.000 We're good to go.

01:35:56.000 They're starving!

01:35:58.000 You have to do something to get people's attention today.

01:36:03.000 I defend clickbait all the time. 0.95

01:36:05.000 I defend clickbait like, listen man, we fucking need journalists. 0.67

01:36:09.000 And even if it's the New York Times that's writing clickbait or the Washington Post, why do you think they're doing that? 0.99

01:36:13.000 Do you think they're doing that because they're dumb? 0.99

01:36:15.000 Are they unethical? 1.00

01:36:16.000 No. 0.99

01:36:16.000 They need people to fucking read things. 0.99

01:36:18.000 Because they can't get clicks otherwise. 0.98

01:36:21.000 There's too much information.

01:36:22.000 There's too much data.

01:36:24.000 There's so much out there.

01:36:26.000 It's so hard to get someone to pay attention to any issue.

01:36:29.000 And if you're a journalist, there's only so many different things you can cover.

01:36:32.000 And I think for a lot of them, they're just trying to stay alive.

01:36:36.000 Yeah, but I guess the larger hope is that because journalism is...

01:36:50.000 Yeah, that would be cute, but it's not real.

01:36:56.000 Yeah.

01:36:58.000 I would love it.

01:36:59.000 I mean, I've talked about this many times.

01:37:00.000 I would love it if somebody came out with a really, truly objective, fact-based news source with everything, where there's no bias left or right at all.

01:37:09.000 And they're just looking at the absolute, concrete, irrefutable facts of every different situation and every different story in the news.

01:37:18.000 I mean, I think that would be fantastic.

01:37:20.000 I think a lot of people like myself and probably you as well, and a lot of people listening would gravitate to.

01:37:25.000 And I think there's a real market for it.

01:37:27.000 I just don't know if you could actually do it.

01:37:29.000 Because I think that if you get a bunch of people together and you put together some sort of an organization, you're going to have an ideological bend to it.

01:37:36.000 They're going to lean one way or the other.

01:37:38.000 And then they're going to omit facts or add their own opinions to things or editorialize.

01:37:44.000 And next thing you know, you're left or right. 0.99

01:37:46.000 You're CNN or you're Fox or whatever the fuck you are. 0.99

01:37:50.000 Well, that's the thing, because we all have our own biases. 0.99

01:37:52.000 And then I think the main thing is, are you aware of those biases, and do you try to counter them?

01:37:57.000 I think, for myself, I'm a columnist, so I have more room in terms of giving my own opinions.

01:38:02.000 It doesn't have to be...

01:38:04.000 If you're a columnist, you're not supposed to be purely objective.

01:38:09.000 So I think part of the problem is that, and even good scientists, you need to be aware of what your particular...

01:38:18.000 Leanings are so that you can say, okay, this should not be affecting my work. 0.90

01:38:23.000 Yeah, I agree.

01:38:25.000 You don't have any problem at all with porn.

01:38:28.000 You think porn is fine and porn is recreational.

01:38:31.000 A lot of people would push back against that.

01:38:34.000 And a lot of people would push back and they would say that it's damaging to young women, that it objectifies women in a harmful way, and that it changes the way young people in particular look at sex.

01:38:48.000 And that they mirror and model themselves after these very unrealistic scenarios that are depicted in these films.

01:38:58.000 What do you think about that?

01:39:00.000 Right.

01:39:00.000 I've never said that I have no issue with porn.

01:39:02.000 I would just say I'm not anti-porn.

01:39:05.000 I think that pornography has a time and place.

01:39:07.000 I think if you're an adult, in terms of sex more broadly, whatever's consensual, that's your business.

01:39:14.000 But I do think, especially young children, I don't think that's good for their development.

01:39:19.000 I don't think that that's a way that people should learn about what sex is going to be like, because pornography is not indicative of what real-life sex is.

01:39:36.000 There's so many different angles in terms of the criticisms of porn, but one common criticism is that pornography makes men interested in things that are potentially degrading to women.

01:39:47.000 I do think there is some pornography that is not very nice in the way it depicts women, for sure.

01:39:53.000 I don't think viewing that as what makes men misogynistic or disrespectful of their partners.

01:40:00.000 I think that's something that is inherent in them.

01:40:02.000 And again, as someone who has worked with sex offenders, antisociality is more predictive of someone's behavior and their views of women.

01:40:09.000 It's not about being exposed to porn.

01:40:12.000 Because I think most pro-social men, if they see something that's very degrading and awful to women, they're going to say, that's horrible and I don't want to look at that.

01:40:20.000 I think the issue is not really with porn as much as the issue is with human beings.

01:40:27.000 I think that porn is in a lot of ways like many things, like alcohol for instance.

01:40:34.000 You can have a drink every now and then or you can drink all day long and ruin your life.

01:40:40.000 What is the problem?

01:40:41.000 Is the problem the alcohol or is it your behavior?

01:40:43.000 Is it the human being?

01:40:45.000 I think it's a human being, and human beings' obsessive, compulsive behavior and people's addiction to things.

01:40:53.000 The addiction to pornography seems to be an issue.

01:40:56.000 And so some people's idea is, well, you should ban pornography.

01:40:58.000 Well, that's sort of the same argument for banning alcohol, but it doesn't really work.

01:41:03.000 You can't really tell people what to do if some people don't have a problem with it.

01:41:07.000 There's some people that enjoy porn every now and then.

01:41:09.000 They watch porn. 0.99

01:41:11.000 They'd rather masturbate than have a relationship or whatever. 1.00

01:41:13.000 Maybe they just don't want to deal with people but they're horny. 0.99

01:41:17.000 I don't know.

01:41:18.000 For whatever reason.

01:41:19.000 But there's nothing wrong with that.

01:41:21.000 But there is something wrong for them with the action of watching porn all day and disassociating and being weird.

01:41:31.000 But again, I don't think it's a porn problem.

01:41:34.000 I think it's a human problem.

01:41:36.000 It's the same thing as gambling.

01:41:37.000 There's a lot of things that people get really obsessed with and they get addicted to.

01:41:42.000 I don't think the problem is the individual thing.

01:41:45.000 This has always been my take on porn and really on a lot of, you know, what we call vices.

01:41:50.000 I don't think the problem is the things themselves and I not just respect, I support individual choices.

01:42:00.000 I love the fact that we have freedom.

01:42:03.000 You could do whatever you want.

01:42:04.000 I think you should be able to do anything.

01:42:06.000 You should, as long as people aren't getting hurt by it.

01:42:10.000 I wonder Why we have this perspective on porn, though, that we don't have on other things.

01:42:18.000 Porn, in many ways, should be just people having sex and filming it, right? 0.98

01:42:25.000 People obviously like sex. 0.96

01:42:27.000 So why is it such a big deal to film it?

01:42:31.000 Why is it such a big deal to show it to other people?

01:42:33.000 It's a very strange aspect of being a human being, that this is one thing that so many people are obsessed with and literally go out of their way to be successful so they can get more sex.

01:42:45.000 If you ask men, if men could not have sex, how many men would be driving Ferraris and taking selfies in front of private jets?

01:42:54.000 How about zero?

01:42:55.000 This is why they're doing it.

01:42:58.000 They're signaling that they have wealth.

01:43:01.000 They're trying to make themselves attractive.

01:43:03.000 Why are they trying to do that?

01:43:04.000 For status.

01:43:04.000 For what?

01:43:05.000 Well, maybe to show off to other men, but more likely to show off to whoever they're attracted to, whether it's the opposite sex or the same sex.

01:43:13.000 They're trying to get sex. 1.00

01:43:14.000 So why is it that filming sex is so taboo? 0.93

01:43:20.000 Well, okay.

01:43:21.000 To go back to your point about porn addiction, number one, there's no evidence for pornography addiction in that...

01:43:26.000 I need to introduce you to some of my friends.

01:43:29.000 You don't know what you're talking about.

01:43:30.000 I don't doubt that there is...

01:43:33.000 I don't doubt that for some people, porn is a problem, for sure.

01:43:36.000 And like you're saying, there's some people who watch for hours.

01:43:38.000 In the research I was doing before, there are some people I would talk to who would literally sit and watch pornography eight, 12 hours a day, and it's affecting work.

01:43:45.000 They're up super late.

01:43:46.000 They can't get up in the morning.

01:43:47.000 It's affecting their relationships.

01:43:49.000 That's not healthy.

01:43:51.000 That's definitely excessive.

01:43:52.000 I don't deny that that exists, but that's not addiction.

01:43:55.000 That's usually procrastination. 0.98

01:43:57.000 It's procrastination. 0.77

01:43:58.000 Oh, wow.

01:43:59.000 That's a weird point of view.

01:44:01.000 I think they're addicted to it.

01:44:03.000 They're obsessed with it.

01:44:04.000 If you're obsessed with something, don't you think that that's an addiction?

01:44:08.000 I mean, are we splitting hairs here?

01:44:11.000 I guess it depends on what, if you're meaning addiction as in like a colloquial use of the word, maybe.

01:44:18.000 But in terms of, if you're talking about drug and alcohol addiction, it's not because drug and alcohol addiction is characterized by tolerance and withdrawal.

01:44:26.000 So people who, people, some people will argue, like I said, with pornography that if they watch it and they start watching more extreme versions of it, they're saying that this is, you know, my tolerance.

01:44:35.000 But if you actually sit and have a conversation with those people, they'll say, actually, this is what I've liked all along.

01:44:47.000 Well, they might not have physical withdrawal, but they do get obsessed with it, and they do have a compulsion to look at it.

01:44:53.000 I know people that if they take a day from porn, they think about it all the time, and they can't wait to get alone to watch it.

01:45:00.000 I think it is an addiction and I think it is similar to a drug addiction the same way gambling is similar to a drug addiction.

01:45:05.000 There's an internal drug.

01:45:07.000 There's something that's going on in your mind that you are getting addicted to.

01:45:11.000 The excitement, the endorphins that you get from gambling. 0.97

01:45:14.000 I think there's many people that get that same excitement or similar and endorphins from watching pornography and masturbating. 0.82

01:45:24.000 Well, I mean, yeah, it's rewarding.

01:45:26.000 But I think for a lot of people, it's a coping strategy.

01:45:29.000 And if you give them different coping strategies, suddenly they're not reliant on pornography to feel better or to deal with stress.

01:45:36.000 But isn't that a strategy for getting over addiction?

01:45:39.000 You would admit there's an addiction to gambling?

01:45:43.000 I think it is recognized now, I believe.

01:45:46.000 But don't you think that that's a similar situation?

01:45:49.000 Because there is no withdrawal, and it's not like you reach a certain point where you need more to get you off.

01:45:58.000 I guess it is really, right?

01:46:01.000 Because they gamble bigger and bigger numbers.

01:46:03.000 But what I'm saying is you don't really develop a tolerance to gambling, right?

01:46:08.000 But it is a gambling addiction.

01:46:11.000 But the thing is with people with so-called pornography addiction, and research has shown this, if you give them other coping skills and ways to deal with stress in their life, or you teach them, say they give them a surgery, That's interesting,

01:46:33.000 and I wonder if you get healthy user bias, because if you're getting someone that is willing to admit and accept the fact that they do have some sort of sex or pornography addiction, That's not the average person.

01:46:47.000 I think there's a lot of people out there that are addicted to porn, but you never hear from them because there's so much shame attached to it.

01:46:55.000 Right.

01:46:55.000 But I think someone who is spending 8 to 12 hours a day, that's a lot of time.

01:46:59.000 That's pretty far in terms of severity.

01:47:03.000 I don't think that for everyone who uses porn as a coping strategy, it's necessarily going to be that extreme.

01:47:09.000 But my issue is that this has been...

01:47:15.000 I think it was maybe two years ago, everyone was talking about porn addiction.

01:47:19.000 And within the field, people who work with people with problems with pornography in a therapeutic context will say, you know, that it's not an addiction.

01:47:28.000 There are other things usually going on in someone's life.

01:47:30.000 And those are the things that you need to talk about when you sit down with a therapist.

01:47:33.000 That's interesting.

01:47:35.000 Yeah, I mean, I guess I would agree that for a lot of people probably is procrastination, and there's probably a lot of other factors as well.

01:47:43.000 But then again, people get horny.

01:47:45.000 So even if you find all these other coping mechanisms where you get horny, you're probably going to watch porn again.

01:47:54.000 So you'll slide right back into it.

01:47:56.000 Well, there's no solution.

01:47:58.000 I don't know.

01:47:59.000 I mean, it's a weird thing as opposed to gambling, right?

01:48:02.000 Like you're not going to get horny for gambling, right?

01:48:04.000 There's not like an equivalent thing where you like, you build up this thing inside your body that needs to take a risk, right?

01:48:12.000 But whereas with pornography, like it's particularly with men, you do sort of build up this need to release.

01:48:21.000 Right.

01:48:22.000 And then it becomes a question of, can they integrate this back into their life in a healthy way without it becoming destructive again?

01:48:29.000 Yeah.

01:48:30.000 So why do you think it is that we have this weird take on sex?

01:48:37.000 Because it's a weird thing that it seems to be, there's no problem with sex, but filming sex and showing sex is where things get strange.

01:48:49.000 Because sex is still considered stigmatized and it's taboo.

01:48:53.000 And even when you're a sex scientist, there's so much stigma around that.

01:48:57.000 You know, you would think that as a scientist that there would be some sort of removal of that perception, but no.

01:49:04.000 So I think, you know, I write a lot about sex positivity also.

01:49:09.000 I think if we were to decrease the stigma around human sexuality, that would help in so many ways.

01:49:15.000 That makes sense.

01:49:16.000 Do you feel like you get extra discrimination because you're a beautiful woman who studies sex? 0.96

01:49:20.000 Do people automatically go, oh, she's a freak.

01:49:23.000 She's just looking for something to study that fits to her own little weird stuff.

01:49:28.000 Do you get that?

01:49:29.000 Well, I have in the past.

01:49:32.000 And I don't blame them for making assumptions because people tend to study what they find interesting.

01:49:37.000 And usually I think people think you have some sort of personal reason for studying the things that you do. 0.82

01:49:43.000 For me, my research expertise was basically kinky sex and sex toys. 0.99

01:49:46.000 I'm extremely vanilla and monogamous and actually pretty boring. 0.60

01:49:50.000 So, you know, for me it was a way of living vicariously through people that I would talk to when I would go out and study these different populations.

01:49:58.000 Or studying something, perhaps, that doesn't jive with your own proclivities.

01:50:04.000 Right.

01:50:05.000 Yeah, I think, I mean, most people would say that human sexuality is really fascinating.

01:50:10.000 And I would have a number of people say to me in the time when I was in graduate school that they wish they had also been studying sex, but they, you know, were afraid of what people would think or it's too stigmatized.

01:50:20.000 And I think that's really a shame because the more people who are interested in doing good work, then that's going to help everybody.

01:50:26.000 Yeah, it's one of those things where people are like, why are you studying that?

01:50:30.000 Because it is stigmatized.

01:50:32.000 It does have this weird sort of connotation to it.

01:50:36.000 Whereas it is a natural part of human behavior, and it's something that most people are...

01:50:43.000 At least mildly interested in sex.

01:50:46.000 Like the idea of studying it being a problem is very odd, but I wonder if it's like different in Canada than it is in America, because Canada seems to have a healthier perspective in general about sex.

01:50:59.000 I think America still has, for whatever reason, the echoes of the Puritan ideology that was established when this country was founded.

01:51:08.000 Because we have comprehensive sex education.

01:51:12.000 As far as I know, for the most part, that's what is predominantly taught in schools with children.

01:51:18.000 And so I think the idea of sex ed makes people uncomfortable because some adults will say, you're introducing ideas into kids' heads, you know, they wouldn't I wouldn't otherwise be thinking about these things, but studies have actually shown that children who get comprehensive sex education,

01:51:34.000 of course, if it's age appropriate, actually make better decisions when it comes to their sexual health.

01:51:39.000 They're more likely to delay when they start having sex, and they're more likely to use contraception when they do. 0.78

01:51:44.000 So that's in contrast to abstinence-only sex, which basically tells you to wait until marriage.

01:51:49.000 Of course.

01:51:50.000 I mean, that's with everything, right?

01:51:51.000 I mean, that's why Europeans have less alcoholics, because they introduce alcohol to kids younger. 1.00

01:51:56.000 You're allowed to drink beer or wine when you're young.

01:51:59.000 It's not so taboo and crazy.

01:52:01.000 So it's not like this built-up thing that you're told to avoid.

01:52:05.000 Well, I think, too, for kids, not kids, let me restate that, because obviously kids should not be having sex.

01:52:12.000 For teenagers, yeah.

01:52:13.000 If you just tell them that they shouldn't do something, what are they going to do?

01:52:17.000 They're going to go do it.

01:52:18.000 Instantly, yeah.

01:52:18.000 So it's...

01:52:19.000 It's better that they have information and education so that they can make more informed decisions that way.

01:52:27.000 Unquestionably.

01:52:28.000 When I was in high school, there was an open secret that girls who went to all-girls Catholic schools were the biggest freaks. 0.99

01:52:39.000 Like, across the board. 0.99

01:52:40.000 They were the ones who wanted to have the most sex. 1.00

01:52:42.000 They were crazed. 1.00

01:52:43.000 They were literally crazed.

01:52:45.000 And we would always try to figure it out, but we knew it was a fact.

01:52:49.000 And it was an open fact that kids, when I was like 17, we all discussed it.

01:52:54.000 And we're all like, what is...

01:52:56.000 And we just figured it out.

01:52:59.000 Well, it's obviously suppression.

01:53:00.000 But, I mean, it's amazing that other people didn't see it.

01:53:02.000 Like, how do the parents not know they're creating monsters? 0.98

01:53:05.000 They're creating sex monsters. 1.00

01:53:07.000 One of the girls that I dated when I was in high school, who went to an all-girls school, all-girls Catholic school, was crazy. 1.00

01:53:13.000 She was crazy. 0.99

01:53:14.000 The way I describe her is like a kitten.

01:53:17.000 Like, if you know if you roll a ball on the ground, a kitten has to dive on it. 1.00

01:53:20.000 That's how she was with a dick. 1.00

01:53:22.000 She couldn't stop herself. 1.00

01:53:24.000 And I think it was literally because of what they did to them. 0.99

01:53:28.000 They told them sex is bad, it's evil, it's terrible, boys are bad. 0.98

01:53:32.000 And they're all together, all with a bunch of girls. 1.00

01:53:34.000 They can't wait to get out of that place and go find a boy.

01:53:37.000 Okay, what are the guys like then?

01:53:39.000 The guys who are at those schools?

01:53:41.000 That's a good question. 0.99

01:53:42.000 I would assume they'd be sex crazed too. 0.58

01:53:45.000 I didn't have any guy friends that went to all guys Catholic schools.

01:53:48.000 For whatever reason, in Boston where I grew up, it was mostly all girls Catholic schools.

01:53:52.000 I don't know if there was all guys Catholic schools.

01:53:55.000 The guys that I knew that were brothers with these girls, they went to regular schools.

01:54:01.000 I don't know what was going on. 0.89

01:54:02.000 I mean, they were just trying to make sluts. 1.00

01:54:04.000 Maybe they had some crazy secret agenda to turn these girls into promiscuous young ladies. 1.00

01:54:09.000 I don't really believe that. 0.86

01:54:11.000 It was probably the opposite, right?

01:54:13.000 It was probably like they're trying to reinforce purity, and by doing so, they screwed up the idea of what sex is in these girls' heads.

01:54:22.000 And that's the thing, too.

01:54:24.000 I also don't think men and women should be held to different standards when it comes to that, and I think Especially them being chaste, and when I say chaste, I mean C-H-A-S-T-E, and being virginal, right? 0.70

01:54:37.000 And protecting their whatever, quote unquote, inherent value as women by being virginal. 0.99

01:54:45.000 I don't think that's fair.

01:54:46.000 I think it should be, you know, if we're gonna say that sex is something special and you should choose carefully who you have sex with, that should be across the board.

01:54:53.000 And conversely, if we're saying that people should be able to have sex, as much sex as they want, and that's fantastic, then that should be across the board also.

01:55:00.000 Yeah, I agree with that.

01:55:01.000 And that does exist in other countries.

01:55:04.000 But for whatever reason, in America, we, generally speaking, don't have that value.

01:55:10.000 And I guess that would be why people that are striving for women's equality would tell women that you are exactly the same thing as a man and you should pursue the same things men do, like casual sex, to sort of affirm that a man and women are the same in that respect.

01:55:30.000 Yeah, I think that's what the intention is, where it's coming from.

01:55:34.000 But again, at the end of the day, I'm just about making choices that are good for you and that make you happy.

01:55:39.000 And there's no need to feel pressure to behave in a certain way.

01:55:42.000 You know, I have young women who reach out to me who will say a lot that they can't perform like they're straight and they can't perform like they're male partners and that worries them.

01:55:50.000 Because for men, you know, if they're turned on, they're turned on.

01:55:55.000 You know, it's a bit more context dependent.

01:55:57.000 And if you're telling young women that they need to be exactly the same as men, they're gonna think, they're gonna internalize this and think there's something wrong with them.

01:56:04.000 And that just makes me so sad because there's nothing wrong with the way our system, the way we're built, right?

01:56:10.000 And so, yeah.

01:56:12.000 Well, I think the solution to that is what you just did.

01:56:15.000 Discussion.

01:56:15.000 Talk about it.

01:56:16.000 You know, I think having these kind of conversations about it and hopefully people will hear these conversations and it'll broaden their ideas and broaden their perspectives.

01:56:26.000 Debra, thank you so much.

01:56:27.000 Yes, when are you moving to Texas?

01:56:30.000 At the end of the month.

01:56:32.000 Whoa.

01:56:33.000 Yeah, I'm out of here.

01:56:35.000 This place is gonna blow up.

01:56:36.000 This place is gonna sink.

01:56:38.000 Watch, as soon as I leave.

01:56:40.000 Boom. 1.00

01:56:41.000 I just thought, it's fucking, this place is crazy. 0.99

01:56:44.000 The lockdown still exists, right? 0.99

01:56:47.000 There's, the homelessness is completely out of control.

01:56:52.000 The overpopulation is out of control.

01:56:53.000 The way they're handling this is so bad.

01:56:56.000 I'm just upset with the federal government's handling of this. 0.99

01:56:59.000 There's so many people that are just financially so fucked right now.

01:57:03.000 And I think people should be I mean, I don't want to say people should be held accountable for it, but I think people should make decisions based on the way the place that they live is handling this really difficult problem. 0.94

01:57:19.000 And the solution they've come up with in California is to jack up taxes.

01:57:23.000 So the most recent solution was to jack up taxes to 54%. 1.00

01:57:26.000 I'm like, you guys are out of your fucking mind. 1.00

01:57:31.000 Retroactively, back to January. 1.00

01:57:33.000 That's a lot.

01:57:33.000 It was a proposal.

01:57:34.000 It's crazy.

01:57:35.000 It's not going to fix it.

01:57:36.000 They're bankrupt. 0.74

01:57:37.000 The state is bankrupt because they're incompetent.

01:57:39.000 They're not going to become competent if you give them more money.

01:57:43.000 They've managed the money that they got very poorly.

01:57:46.000 They already have high taxes. 0.95

01:57:47.000 There's a 13.5% state income tax here in California. 0.99

01:57:51.000 And the place is still fucked up. 0.99

01:57:53.000 It's like... 0.99

01:57:54.000 This is a very telling and dangerous time in a lot of ways.

01:57:59.000 It's very challenging.

01:58:00.000 And it exposes a lot of things.

01:58:03.000 And one of the things it exposes is that I don't particularly like the way things are run here.

01:58:07.000 I don't like being in a place that has such a high population either.

01:58:12.000 There's a real problem with living somewhere that has 20 million people plus.

01:58:17.000 40 million in the whole state.

01:58:18.000 It's so crazy.

01:58:20.000 There's so many people here.

01:58:21.000 And the only thing that was really keeping me around was the comedy store and my friends.

01:58:25.000 And a lot of my friends are bailing.

01:58:27.000 A lot.

01:58:28.000 Where are they going?

01:58:29.000 All over the place.

01:58:30.000 My friend Joey's moving to New Jersey.

01:58:32.000 Theo Vaughn is moving.

01:58:34.000 I think he's moving to Nashville.

01:58:35.000 A lot of my friends are talking about Texas.

01:58:37.000 People are just bailing.

01:58:38.000 There's a mass exodus out of California right now.

01:58:41.000 That's crazy, because I was actually planning to move to LA eventually.

01:58:44.000 So now that you're going, I was going to say the next time I'm in town, I'll come say hi, but you're going to be gone.

01:58:48.000 Well, maybe I'll be here every now and then.

01:58:50.000 You know, look, once things are back to normal, whatever normal is going to be, I'd be happy to come in every now and then.

01:58:56.000 And we're going to keep this studio for a while.

01:58:57.000 I'll come to the Comedy Store and still do shows there.

01:59:01.000 I miss all my friends that work there and that perform there.

01:59:05.000 So I'm sure I'll be in town.

01:59:07.000 At least a few times a year.

01:59:09.000 But I just want to change too.

01:59:11.000 I think there's other places to live.

01:59:15.000 I want to live in a place where it rains.

01:59:17.000 That's another thing.

01:59:18.000 It's very unhealthy living in a place where it's always sunny.

01:59:21.000 I think it gives you a really delusional perspective.

01:59:23.000 It's beautiful for you because you come from Toronto.

01:59:26.000 It's 55,000 degrees below zero.

01:59:29.000 Well, it's not snowing every day, counter to what people think.

01:59:31.000 We do actually have summer and sunshine sometimes.

01:59:34.000 Of course you do.

01:59:34.000 Look, I love Toronto.

01:59:35.000 But the thing is, when people come from somewhere like that, and you come to LA and it's sunny all the time, you're like, this is amazing.

01:59:41.000 But after a while, it's like...

01:59:44.000 It gives you a distorted view of nature, you know, and I think that's one of the reasons why people in LA are so delusional.

01:59:51.000 They very rarely have to deal with actual nature.

01:59:54.000 I always felt like there was something real humbling about growing up in Boston because it got so goddamn cold and it snowed so much that you just knew, like, there were certain point in times where you had to submit to nature.

02:00:05.000 You had to huddle in, there's two feet of snow outside, you just stayed home.

02:00:10.000 You just, you know, hung out with the family.

02:00:12.000 You played games.

02:00:13.000 You did what you had to do.

02:00:14.000 No one's going anywhere.

02:00:15.000 The roads are shut down.

02:00:17.000 They have to plow.

02:00:18.000 It takes days.

02:00:19.000 And there's something about that just understanding that sometimes you have to be at the beck and call and the will of nature.

02:00:26.000 That doesn't exist in California.

02:00:28.000 Every 20 years or so, we get a wake-up call.

02:00:31.000 The earth shakes and buildings fall down. 1.00

02:00:32.000 You go, fuck, I gotta get out of here. 1.00

02:00:34.000 And then people move out. 1.00

02:00:35.000 And then a couple years later they forget, a bunch of people move in, and then it gets overcrowded again.

02:00:39.000 But this is like one of the first years, I think, where California didn't grow.

02:00:44.000 And that's very strange.

02:00:46.000 Because every year California's population just keeps growing and growing and growing.

02:00:50.000 And they say this is one of the very first years in recent memory where it's not growing.

02:00:55.000 So many people are leaving that it's actually not growing.

02:01:01.000 Change is good.

02:01:02.000 I'm happy for you.

02:01:03.000 Thank you.

02:01:04.000 I'm happy for you too.

02:01:06.000 Thank you.

02:01:07.000 I'm happy for your book.

02:01:09.000 You have a podcast as well, right?

02:01:12.000 I will be starting a new podcast, so I would tell everyone to follow me on social media.

02:01:16.000 I'm at Dr. Debra So on Twitter and Facebook and at Dr. Debra W. So on Instagram and I'll be announcing a whole bunch of new stuff coming soon.

02:01:24.000 And it's D-E-B-R-A. So nothing crazy with the O and the H. A lot of people like to... 1.00

02:01:30.000 Debra can be spelled so many different ways, right? 0.96

02:01:33.000 Right.

02:01:33.000 And then so is S-O-H. S-O-H. Very simple.

02:01:36.000 All right.

02:01:36.000 Well, thank you very much, Debra.

02:01:37.000 It's always good to talk to you.

02:01:38.000 Next time, hopefully, we get to see each other in person.

02:01:41.000 I know.

02:01:41.000 Thank you so much, Joe.

02:01:43.000 I appreciate it.

02:01:43.000 Stay safe, stay healthy, and don't read the comments.

02:01:47.000 Take care.

02:01:48.000 Bye.

The Joe Rogan Experience - August 05, 2020

Joe Rogan Experience #1520 - Dr. Debra Soh

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