Debra and Joe talk about the new flu pandemic that has swept across the country, and Debra s own experience with it. They also talk about her new book, "The End of Gender," and how she s dealing with the backlash she s getting for it. Debra also shares her thoughts on gender identity and how it s affected her in the wake of the pandemic, and why she s writing a book about it. And they talk about how important it is to take care of ourselves, especially when it comes to getting enough vitamins and minerals in our bodies. Don t miss it! Thank you to Debra for being on the podcast, and for being brave enough to share her story with the world. You can reach Debra at Debra: and Joe at . Thanks to our sponsor, for sponsoring this episode. Thank you also to Joe for being kind enough to give us a discount on our ad-free version of our new ad-libbed version of the podcast. We re working on transcribing this episode so we can make sure the audio is as good as possible. We hope you enjoy it, and we ll try to make it even better in the future episodes. Thanks again for listening, Joe and Joe! Love ya, bye! Cheers, Cheers! - Your Host, Caitlyn. -Jonotha, Sarah and Joe, Sarah, Sarah, Kristy, and Jonotha Music: "The Girl Who Couldn t Get It?" - The End Of Gender" by The End of Geminis (featuring: , (feat. ) & (Music: ) and ( ) (Sylvia, (The End Of Gativity) (Feat. (Crispy, ) & ) ( ) (Sickness: (Alyssa) ( ) and (Alicia) - (Song: "Let's Talk About It ( ) & (A Song) ( ) - is by Jeff Perciano ( ) is ( & ( ) - Thank You, Thank You ( ) // (?) ( ) ) - Thank you, Joe's Song: "This Is It's a Good Thing ( ) -- Thank You For This Is Not Good Enough ( ) , (HAPPY TO YOU,
00:00:24.000I'm so sad that I can't be there with you because I've been counting down the days and I was thinking, I have to at least be in LA to do Joe's show, but I was just a bit scared.
00:01:17.000Yeah, he's fine now, but his endurance is really low, like his lung capacity suffered.
00:01:24.000That's the thing, because when this happened, I felt like, okay, everything has to stop and I have to take care of myself.
00:01:29.000We take it for granted, right, when you're healthy, but the minute something like this happens, this is something that I would have never even thought about.
00:01:36.000Are you taking a lot of vitamin D? No, I'm actually...
00:01:41.000Everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D. I take omega.
00:01:51.000But vitamin D in particular, they did a study, several studies actually.
00:01:55.000Dr. Rhonda Patrick was on the podcast talking about it.
00:01:58.000And she said that there was several studies that show that in the people that were in the ICU with COVID... More than 80% of them were insufficient when their vitamin D levels, and only 4% were sufficient.
00:02:11.000So it's not a prevent-all, it's not provable, but there's got to be some sort of a correlation.
00:02:19.000I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it, because I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money for those.
00:03:35.000So explain to people what the book is.
00:03:37.000So the book is called The End of Gender.
00:03:39.000And before I go any further, I'm going to explain the title because some people I think miss When I announced it on social media, some people were getting upset because I think they thought I was taking a very, very far left progressive view.
00:03:51.000And I consider myself to be a liberal.
00:03:52.000I'm definitely not far left, but you know, I have liberal values.
00:03:56.000And so the end of gender, I think people thought that I meant I was saying that gender is basically whatever you want it to be.
00:04:03.000It's based solely in self-identification.
00:04:06.000You know, there's no tethering to biology.
00:04:08.000And that is not what I'm saying with the book at all.
00:04:10.000And I think if anyone's ever read my columns or seen my appearances or they listened to the talk that I had with you last time I was on your show, that's definitely not what I'm saying.
00:04:18.000I'm saying the complete opposite, that the fact that science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting, is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender.
00:04:28.000And that's leading to the demise of our understanding of it in an accurate way.
00:04:32.000If you don't mind, just to start things off, will you please give your credentials and tell people what you do?
00:04:37.000Yeah, so I have a PhD in sexual neuroscience research.
00:04:41.000I made the transition from being an academic sex researcher to being a journalist.
00:04:47.000So now I write about the science of sex and gender.
00:04:50.000I write about the politicization of science and academic censorship.
00:04:54.000And so now I have this book out, and I can talk a bit about how I got here, if that would be helpful.
00:05:00.000Yeah, so when I was doing my PhD, I very much loved being a sex researcher.
00:05:08.000I really thought I was going to stay in academia.
00:05:09.000And in the last few years, I noticed that there had been a change in the climate in terms of what people could study, what people could talk about as scientific experts.
00:05:18.000And one area in particular was about gender transition in children.
00:05:22.000So every single mainstream news piece was saying that for these children who say they're born in the wrong body, The best approach for them would be early transitioning.
00:05:31.000So that means to take on a new name, identify as the opposite sex, usually get a haircut, start dressing like the opposite sex.
00:05:38.000But from a scientific perspective, all of the research actually shows that most of these kids, the vast majority of them, are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood.
00:05:50.000And at that time, there's literally maybe one or two news articles that called into question this narrative of early transitioning.
00:05:58.000So I wrote an op-ed about this, citing the scientific research, and I asked my colleagues and mentors in academia, you know, what do you think?
00:06:06.000I knew that there was going to be some backlash to it.
00:06:09.000And one of my mentors said to me, because I said, should I wait until I have tenure?
00:06:25.000It's a very strange time when it comes to talking about certain subjects because it doesn't matter what the science is.
00:06:32.000There are specific narratives that you have to adhere to in today's climate.
00:07:25.000She's great, and she's very brave, and I saw what happens when you go against this narrative by having her on.
00:07:31.000Men's Health wrote a piece about me saying I'm fanning the flames of hate because she was talking about a 4,000% increase, 4,000% increase in teenage girls identifying as trans and rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which is real.
00:07:47.000I mean, this is a real scientific phenomenon.
00:07:49.000It's 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of people identifying as transgender.
00:07:57.000She was talking about this in this very specific way, talking about awkward teenage girls and about how these girls have, you know, really odd situations in terms of the way they deal with people socially, and then all of a sudden they're praised for deciding that they're trans,
00:08:16.000and then they get these clusters of friends that also decide that they're trans, which is very strange.
00:08:25.000So if Men's Health, which is a fucking men's magazine, is going to write articles calling you a hateful person because you're discussing it.
00:08:34.000There was no hate in that podcast at all.
00:08:36.000It was just discussing it, like, what is causing this?
00:08:45.000I mean, we can assume that people are troubled in all sorts of different ways, but we can't assume they're ever troubled when it comes to gender.
00:08:55.000I think what you were saying with why it's gone so far left, I do think a lot of this is coming from empathy, which is a good thing.
00:09:03.000And I have to say, with regard to the issue of transitioning children, I do support tradition in adults.
00:09:09.000I think it can help adults who are transgender.
00:09:12.000I think if you're an adult, it's your decision, it's your body, it's no one's place to tell you what to do.
00:09:17.000But I think a lot of this is coming from...
00:09:19.000So I grew up in the gay community, and I remember seeing how homophobic people could be toward my friends, And I think things have changed.
00:09:27.000Things have gotten better in some ways.
00:09:29.000I think homophobia still exists and we can talk about that because I just That's kind of what we're seeing in the book.
00:09:35.000But I think for a lot of people, they look at that and they say, okay, we were wrong about that.
00:09:40.000We were wrong to treat gay people differently.
00:09:42.000We were wrong to say that being gay is something you can change.
00:09:45.000So now they've gone completely in the opposite direction saying, okay, no matter what anyone says with regard to their identity, with regard to their gender, this is something that we should not challenge.
00:10:24.000But I think for some people, if they are very much invested in the identity or very invested in activism, or for whatever reason, this ideology means something to them, It doesn't matter what the science says,
00:10:42.000And especially with desistance, which is that the research I was mentioning where it shows that most kids will not feel gender dysphoric anymore when they reach puberty.
00:10:52.000Some people cannot accept it and they will call you transphobic, they'll call you bigoted.
00:10:57.000And I don't think I'm any of those things.
00:10:59.000I'm really just trying to help prevent these children from making potential It's essentially a very bad decision that they're going to regret.
00:11:05.000And especially now, we're seeing in the UK that this is happening where more de-transitioners are saying, this was something I regret, this was a mistake, why did the adults not challenge me?
00:11:15.000I really think, so right now we're in August 2020, I think within the next five years or maybe a little bit longer, we're going to be seeing an explosion of children coming out and saying, I did not want to transition, this was a mistake, and it's really going to be awful.
00:11:53.000But I think in North America, we are still very much in denial about this.
00:11:58.000Whenever I'm on a show, if I'm on TV and I talk about this, the backlash after is just crazy.
00:12:04.000And I'm thinking, people need to wake up.
00:12:06.000I'm trying to stop this from happening, right?
00:12:09.000The whole point of writing this book and saying these things is trying to prevent what's about to happen.
00:12:13.000Yeah, the backlash, it's very strange because a lot of the backlash is from trans folks, and it seems that they equate any criticism or any examination of even children, even small children transitioning to transphobia.
00:12:33.000There has to be some trans people that as children knew that they were women or they were the opposite sex, that they were in the wrong body.
00:12:57.000And that's part of the problem with making lifelong decisions as a six-year-old.
00:13:02.000If you're a six-year-old male and you decide that you're a female and you go through the transition and then you realize you're a gay man later in life, there's no recourse.
00:13:12.000There's nothing you can do to rectify that.
00:13:22.000And when I do point that out, people say that I'm using the gay community as a shield or something like that.
00:13:28.000But medical professionals need to be the ones to do their job because it is their job.
00:13:33.000They should be doing proper assessments with these children and adults too to determine what is the best way for you.
00:13:40.000And that's the only way they can really determine on a case-by-case basis Whether transitioning is going to help somebody, but they can't do their jobs right now.
00:13:47.000Everyone I know that is ethical in the field has left or they stopped working with these patients because they don't feel they can do their job properly.
00:13:56.000So what you have instead is the people who are currently operating are activists and they will really facilitate whatever patient wants them to do, whether or not that may or may not be the right thing for them.
00:14:24.000Within sex research in particular, I feel like sex research was the carrying the coal mine because we saw this coming decades ago in that one professor, Michael Bailey at Northwestern University, there's been a long history that's ugly between sex researchers and transgender activists.
00:14:39.000And Michael Bailey wrote a book, I think it was 2003, that really enraged some activists.
00:14:45.000And I have to say, trans activists don't speak for all transgender people.
00:14:49.000I have many trans people who've reached out to me over the years telling me that they actually agree with me.
00:14:54.000But I feel activists tend to be the most vocal.
00:15:25.000And I think also with more broadly with this ideology that students are being taught this and they graduate, they go out into the real world.
00:16:15.000I talk about sex differences, you know, and these are all things that are considered taboo and I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation.
00:16:24.000We're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people.
00:16:28.000In fact, I'm always very clear to say that it doesn't.
00:16:31.000Well, I think this is one of the reasons why you're so important because you're obviously a very intelligent, kind person and you're not a hateful person and you're not in any way discriminating.
00:16:41.000You're looking at this as a scientist and you're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science, particularly when it comes to really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender.
00:16:55.000I would love to talk to you about what you just had, though.
00:16:57.000When you said that there's not a spectrum when it comes to gender, that's a common narrative.
00:17:01.000So what do you mean by that, like there's not a spectrum?
00:17:23.000It validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people.
00:17:27.000I think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities.
00:17:30.000We don't have to reconceptualize what gender or sex And also for intersex people in particular, most of them want to live within the binary.
00:17:39.000They want to live as either male or female.
00:17:41.000They don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else.
00:17:48.000I mean, this is what's being published in scientific papers now.
00:17:50.000They refer to gender as, quite literally, a galaxy.
00:18:42.000Oh my god, you don't even seem remotely masculine.
00:18:45.000What determines that you are masculine?
00:18:49.000I would say, well, from a young age, I'd always been more like boys.
00:18:52.000I looked like a boy when I was younger.
00:18:54.000I've always just, my friends were always boys and guys and I've always felt, I've just always felt more like a man, just like you feel like a man, right?
00:19:02.000Gender is one of those things in terms of how we describe it is so personal and that's why I feel it's so important to focus on the evidence because without that, what do you really have?
00:19:12.000So what it really, what it comes down to is testosterone exposure in the womb.
00:19:57.000So this spectrum that does exist, even though there are two genders in your opinion, a male gender and a female gender, Well, it's not in my opinion.
00:20:33.000My issue is when people, again, say that this is backed by science when it isn't.
00:20:37.000We're talking about what it's actually about.
00:20:39.000So for a lot of people who are identifying as non-binary, I think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia.
00:20:46.000So a lot of people who identify as non-binary, especially among people who were born male, they will normally come out as gay.
00:20:53.000As a gay man and then decide to be non-binary.
00:20:56.000Or for people who are born female, many of them don't, they feel a lot of discomfort around their bodies, the changes they experience being a woman.
00:21:04.000They don't like the attention that they're getting.
00:21:08.000For some of them, they have exposure to pornography at a young age, and they think that that is actually what sex is gonna be like, and they think, I don't want that, so how do I avoid that?
00:21:19.000Well, if I become something other than a woman, I will not have to experience this.
00:21:23.000And no one is saying to them, number one, pornography, I'm definitely not anti-porn.
00:21:27.000I used to write for a very prominent men's magazine, so I have no issue with that.
00:21:32.000I just think we have to, Be able to have a conversation saying, you know, if you feel different, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a woman, or with regards to pornography, it's entertainment.
00:21:49.000Let's start with the non-binary aspect.
00:21:52.000I know people that claim to be non-binary, and I'm trying to say this in a nice way.
00:22:00.000I think some of them, it's a cool thing to say you are.
00:22:06.000There's a thing today where if you can say you're non-binary, like, oh, it's part of being woke.
00:22:13.000You know, it's part of, I mean, not saying that there aren't people who don't feel like they don't fit into either male nor female, or maybe they feel asexual, or maybe they just don't feel like whatever the models that exist in society apply to them.
00:22:25.000They don't feel like they connect with those models.
00:22:30.000But the term non-binary, how recent is that?
00:22:38.000It's been around for decades, but I would say in terms of the popularity, one study showed that among millennials, about 10% identify as a third gender.
00:22:46.000So this includes non-binary, gender-neutral, agender.
00:23:25.000Right, but that's where people feel like we should be describing it as a spectrum.
00:23:30.000That's where they feel like if you look at Jason Momoa versus Andy Dick, obviously these are two very different kinds of men, and that's where people would apply the concept of a spectrum.
00:23:48.000Right, but why can we not just say they're both men?
00:23:50.000I don't understand why just because someone is slightly different that they suddenly need to be categorized as, you have to reconceptualize what it means to be a man just because they're different types of men.
00:24:05.000It's interesting because I don't know why they do that.
00:24:07.000I just think that for some people it gives them comfort to think that they are not exactly the same as other men who are different than them in radical ways, like more masculine or more feminine, and they're more comfortable with this concept of a spectrum.
00:24:22.000There's clearly a physical spectrum, right?
00:24:24.000There's a spectrum in terms of body types and ectomorphs and endomorphs and mesomorphs and there's a spectrum in terms of height and size and weight and all these different things.
00:24:32.000I think a lot of people would like there to be a spectrum in terms of gender.
00:24:37.000The sense I get from people who identify this way is that there's some sort of I think if we could talk about this openly and that's what they still decided.
00:24:49.000My issue also with this movement is for some people they go on and they will get surgery.
00:24:54.000So double mastectomies are very common among people who are born female who identify as non-binary.
00:24:59.000And I'm concerned about that because some of these people are very young when they're deciding to get these surgeries done.
00:25:04.000So if we could have this conversation and if psychologists could do their job and determine is this really the best outcome for you, then that's again their business.
00:25:14.000But We can't have this conversation at all.
00:25:16.000We're not talking about whether there might be other reasons why someone feels this way, and that maybe just opening your mind to other possibilities would actually be helpful.
00:25:38.000I don't think it's most people in the general population.
00:25:40.000I think it's a small percentage of people that are very angry at these conversations.
00:25:46.000And I think the reason why is because they believe that these conversations equal hate.
00:25:54.000Or these kind of conversations equal either homophobia or transphobia.
00:25:58.000I think the problem is the existence of that at all.
00:26:04.000If there was no homophobia, if it did not exist, if there was no transphobia, if it didn't exist, if everyone, like, I know that you are not those things.
00:26:13.000You're not homophobic or transphobic, nor am I. And I think if we all knew, this is one of the reasons why you and I can have this conversation.
00:26:23.000If there's no hate, you can talk about it for what it really is.
00:26:26.000But when you have this conversation, the problem with woke culture is that it's automatically assumed that because you question the narrative, That you're doing so from a discriminatory point of view.
00:26:52.000And I think most people recognize that it's not accurate.
00:26:55.000It's a small, very vocal minority of people that object.
00:27:00.000And this is where the problem lies, is that the people that you were referring to as the activists, and it's not even all the activists, it's just the really angry ones, they're so vocal about it, and they go so far out of their way to attack, that it's not a subject that you could even breach.
00:27:15.000And I mean, because I just had this podcast the other day, it was only a couple weeks ago with Abigail, and now I'm having it with you, like, oh my god, it's gonna compound, it's gonna be crazy.
00:27:23.000But listen, you and I had scheduled this.
00:27:26.000You and I had scheduled this quite a while ago.
00:27:28.000The Abigail thing came up fairly last minute because she had been on Bridget Phetasy's podcast and no one else wanted to have her on.
00:27:37.000And she has this book about a subject that's very...
00:27:39.000And as a person who has daughters, this to me is a very important subject.
00:27:43.000I also have friends who have daughters and their daughters' friends are doing this.
00:27:49.000They're going through this whole transition and they...
00:27:52.000My friend who has this daughter, he's like, I don't think your friends are trans.
00:27:56.000I think they're caught up in this whole movement, and when there's four or five of them that are deciding that they're trans, it doesn't seem like the numbers match up.
00:28:08.000It seems like there could be some other influences here.
00:28:10.000This could be something that seems like a cool thing to do.
00:28:12.000They're all getting praised at school.
00:28:14.000This is a real psychological and cultural phenomena.
00:28:18.000This is not a hateful thing to discuss.
00:28:20.000And this is why I'm pushing back against it, and this is why I think it's so important that people like you, who are academics, like people say, well, hey, you want to talk about trans, why don't you have an expert on?
00:28:32.000Yeah, and the crazy thing is even experts are really scared to talk about this because of what will happen to them if they do.
00:28:39.000Because I'm not in academia, and I'm very fortunate, I'm so, so grateful to the editors who will work with me, people who will have me on their show like you, I am free to say what I think.
00:28:49.000If you are tied to any sort of academic institution, medical organization, even scientific organizations, you cannot say these things even though they are backed fully by the science.
00:29:00.000And the thing is, this should not be a partisan issue.
00:29:03.000So, you know, in terms of you were saying that no one was having Abigail on, I'm actually amazed that liberal journalists and liberal outlets, very, very few of them will touch this subject.
00:29:14.000And it really doesn't matter what your politics are.
00:29:16.000At the end of the day, it's about What is right for these kids or what's right for anybody who's identifying this way?
00:29:24.000Well, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
00:29:26.000I think the issue is most people that have the kind of reach that maybe my podcast has are part of a large organization.
00:29:34.000And when you're a part of a large organization, there's just so much politics involved.
00:29:39.000There's so many different influences and there's so many different people that have opinions about this that are based on the current narrative.
00:29:59.000There must be something wrong with you.
00:30:00.000And that's where I'm really very thankful that there's people like you that push back on this, that are brave enough to do that.
00:30:08.000Even with rapid onset gender dysphoria.
00:30:10.000So, I mean, this is documented in research, right?
00:30:13.000And even still, that's considered a quote-unquote myth.
00:30:16.000People say, like I write about this in the book, people are saying that people who decide to detransition, they were not really trans or they didn't really have gender dysphoria or, you know, they just dismissed them.
00:30:28.000And I'm thinking, This movement especially is so much into how you feel and your quote-unquote lived experience and being validated for who you are.
00:30:37.000So how can you say that to a group of people who say, this is what I experienced?
00:30:42.000And the way they're being also ignored by the medical professionals and told that essentially if they change their mind, well, that's your problem.
00:31:21.000I can't wait for the day where, whether it's through CRISPR or some other form of genetic manipulation, you really can become a woman.
00:31:30.000You really become a biological man or a biological woman, where we have a grasp of the biology to the point where science can actually alter the person's chromosomes.
00:31:48.000I think that's gonna eliminate so much and so many problems, but I mean, you know, what are we hundreds of years away from that?
00:31:54.000I mean, I don't know but for now my fear is What you have said previously and you said earlier on this podcast that you're gonna see a wave of lawsuits Yeah, and it's gonna be really really sad and I think these children will be saying why did my parents Allow me to do this.
00:32:15.000Why did medical professionals not question me, not stop and think about this?
00:32:21.000I mean, children say all kinds of things and it's really scary to me that adults are taking the things that they say at face value.
00:32:28.000Yeah, when Abigail told me that in some places you can self-diagnose as being trans at as young as 15, and you can go to certain...
00:33:50.000He has information because he was saying to me how transgender care and health really needs to be improved.
00:33:56.000A lot of medical professionals will prescribe testosterone, and they do not fully understand.
00:34:02.000One of the side effects is uterine Cramping and atrophy.
00:34:06.000So for these individuals, when they start taking it, they'll be cramping, they'll be in a lot of pain, they'll be bleeding, and they don't know why, and it's due to the low estrogen.
00:34:15.000Well, I've had Buck Angel on the podcast before.
00:35:26.000Children, they're so easily influenced and by so many different factors.
00:35:33.000Whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you can't tell me that nothing is happening to these kids that is changing and affecting the way they perceive things.
00:35:50.000Which is fine for the most part, but when it comes to radical life-altering decisions like changing your gender at 12 years old, like, fuck, are you sure?
00:36:05.000And the reason why it's so taboo is because they want to bully you into not talking about it because when you do talk about it, it's exposed that it's not rock-solid, that it is strange, and that there is a problem.
00:36:35.000And that's when things get very, very strange to me.
00:36:38.000I just don't understand how many people are adhering to this, and I think they're doing it out of cowardice.
00:36:43.000I think they're doing it out of fear of repercussions of these discussions.
00:36:46.000Even if you are clear in your intentions, and you're not hateful, and there's no bigotry in your heart, it doesn't matter.
00:36:55.000They don't want you talking about it because they have a very specific narrative, and they don't want anyone to stray from that, and if you do stray from that, they'll attack you.
00:37:05.000I get some of the concerns in that, yes, this information could potentially be used to hold trans people back.
00:37:11.000Some people could take this information and say, okay, well, this means that no one should be allowed to transition ever.
00:37:16.000But I think we have to be realistic about it.
00:37:20.000And if you hide this information, what it does then for people who are not in favor of trans rights, they're going to find it and say, see, this is why.
00:37:28.000This is why they hide this information.
00:37:31.000Because it feeds into whatever negative ideas they have about the community.
00:37:37.000I'm totally happy to talk to anyone from the community who would like to speak with me.
00:37:41.000I would love to build bridges and build understanding.
00:37:43.000I just feel like there's a lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust.
00:37:47.000And I understand where that's coming from, but at the same time, I don't know how else to solve this issue.
00:37:52.000Scientists also can't even do this research now because people get upset and say, if you are not from this community, We're good to go.
00:38:22.000I think some of the concern is that scientists have an agenda and they're doing this research as a way to invalidate trans people or something like that.
00:38:32.000But I think you have to have faith that that's not, especially in this climate, there's no way someone can get away with doing anything like that now.
00:38:40.000And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the narrative that activists want.
00:38:47.000Yeah, it's a very strange time and I don't know where we go from here.
00:38:51.000I mean, I never thought we would be here in a place where there were these taboo subjects that are critical to the development and the growth of human beings and you can't discuss them.
00:39:07.000I don't see a map of the territory that makes sense to me.
00:39:12.000I think what's going to happen, unfortunately, is that more of these children will be de-transitioning and changing their minds to the point where society is not going to be able to ignore it.
00:39:26.000So what I was saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of kids that have experienced rapid onset gender dysphoria within the last 10 years.
00:39:40.000So within one study in particular of the individuals who surveyed the children, 40% of them had a friend group that had at least half of them identifying as transgender.
00:39:52.000And so this worked out to be 70 times what you would see in the general population.
00:39:57.000And I don't know how you can look at that and not think something is going on here.
00:40:04.000It can't just be social acceptance because if it were, why is it we don't see this also happening in boys?
00:40:10.000Why do we not see this happening across different ages?
00:40:13.000It's very specific to adolescent girls and young women.
00:40:16.000Now you're a woman and you're a woman who in many ways you say you identify as being more masculine.
00:40:23.000What do you think it is about growing up as a woman and maybe you could speak to this because you did grow up and felt more masculine.
00:40:32.000What do you think it is that makes women more vulnerable to this?
00:40:37.000I think, so I have been critical of feminist orthodoxy, and I'll call things as I see it, but I do think on some level sexism does still exist in society.
00:40:46.000I don't think it's so terrible that women can't pursue what they want to achieve in life, but I think for young women especially, when they encounter situations like this, or they experience certain things they don't like because they are female, if they have the option of opting out of that,
00:41:03.000I feel like I almost can't blame them because There are certain things that women have to deal with that men don't have to deal with and vice versa.
00:41:10.000I think there are certain things that boys and men have to deal with growing up that women don't have to deal with.
00:41:15.000But I think it's because this is so socially acceptable now and they're also, like you said, they're praised when they decide that they want to come out as a man or they want to identify as a third gender or they don't want to be female.
00:41:27.000And I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of Do you think this is a phase that culture is going through?
00:41:48.000With this particular population or you think more broadly?
00:41:52.000With the leap in rapid onset gender dysphoria, do you think that in many ways it might actually be connected to transphobia in that because there is transphobia people are actively trying to combat it so they're praising people who are trans which might encourage people who are socially awkward to think they are because they get encouraged for that.
00:42:15.000And then maybe when we reach a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted just like people with blue eyes and brown eyes and whatever.
00:42:27.000Is that what it's going to take for things to balance out and for us to actually find out?
00:42:34.000Is there a spectrum when it comes to trans people?
00:42:36.000Are there people that are mildly trans?
00:42:39.000Just like there's people that are you know mildly masculine or people that are like very very feminine but also a man?
00:42:48.000Okay well let me start with the first part of your question was why do people go along with this?
00:42:53.000I think Part of it might be because it's more socially acceptable, right?
00:42:57.000And people don't want to rock the boat.
00:42:59.000I think other people, they mean well, and they think that this is going to help the community and to tell people who counter this narrative that they're hateful or whatever, that this is going to somehow bring about positive change.
00:43:12.000I missed the second part of your question.
00:43:16.000But then if being trans is a spectrum, I don't know, because I'm not trans, so I don't want to speak for trans people, but I think there are some people for whom transitioning is the right choice, and I think for some people...
00:43:28.000Maybe they will be able to grow comfortable, right?
00:43:33.000And also this whole conversation about conversion therapy, when there is no such thing as conversion therapy for gender identity.
00:43:39.000There's conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and it doesn't work.
00:43:44.000But if a clinician sits down with a child who says that they want to be the opposite sex or they're gender dysphoric, and they ask them what else is going on in your life to better understand that, That's called conversion therapy now, and now that's being banned.
00:43:56.000I think that's been banned in something like 20 states.
00:43:59.000So now clinicians, again, can't do their job.
00:44:03.000That's a critical part of figuring out who's going to benefit from transitioning.
00:44:09.000Conversion therapy, when we think about it, we usually think about it in terms of gay people, right?
00:44:14.000Like, pray the gay away, that kind of shit.
00:44:37.000Well, okay, so activists, and now this is being written into law, it's called conversion therapy because it sounds scary.
00:44:45.000It's not the same thing as conversion therapy for sexual orientation because, again, sexual orientation is biological, so it can't be changed.
00:44:52.000But for gender, for young children especially, who say they feel like they're the opposite sex, gender, that can change over time, as we see in the research, that they will outgrow those feelings, right?
00:45:03.000It's not appropriate to call that conversion therapy because that's a natural process that would have happened on its own.
00:45:10.000So for a clinician to sit down and just try to understand that, it should not be seen as somehow harmful, right?
00:45:21.000So if some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks them what's going on in your life, how do you feel, that's considered conversion therapy?
00:45:33.000So are they supposed to just, on this subject only, automatically go along with everything that the child says?
00:45:41.000Whereas you wouldn't do it with any other issue that the child had that required therapy.
00:45:49.000There's no differential diagnosis because someone might present with, say, gender dysphoria, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why they might feel that way.
00:45:57.000You know, last time I spoke to you, we talked about how autism can play a big role in that sometimes people with autism, and I do think people with autism deserve love and respect, but sometimes one of the symptoms is fixating and having particular interests.
00:46:12.000And so for these children especially, they might go through phases of being really into a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby.
00:46:19.000And then gender might also be one of these things.
00:46:21.000And my colleagues who are clinicians have noticed that.
00:46:24.000For some of these kids, they fixate on gender for a bit and then they move on to something else.
00:46:28.000What was your motivation for writing this book?
00:46:31.000What got you to actually sit down in front of the computer and start banging on the keys?
00:46:37.000All the questions that people have been asking me over the years about these subjects and the fact that I see so much misinformation being ingrained in our society, it's not even being questioned now.
00:46:46.000So say something like gender is a social construct.
00:46:49.000In 2017, James Damore wrote his Google Memo, his infamous Google Memo.
00:46:53.000I wrote a column for the Globe and Mail defending it.
00:46:56.000And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse.
00:47:16.000And I'm thinking, that's not factually accurate.
00:47:19.000So for me, it's this feeling that I get, I think, for some people who deny this science, particularly around gender, it's coming from Possibly good intentions that they think this is what what we need to do to help move society forward But I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that because when you try to hide the truth You try to suppress reality.
00:47:41.000It doesn't go away And I think we can both agree that a lot of this narrative comes from this desire to avoid the criticism desire to avoid the angry mob Yeah, I think so.
00:48:17.000Gender as a social construct is a weird thing to say.
00:48:21.000You know, and I've had weird conversations with people about it where they deny the difference between male and female.
00:48:26.000And I'm like, okay, well, if you buy a puppy, and it's a boy puppy or a girl puppy, and you wanted a boy puppy, but it's a girl puppy, do you complain?
00:48:41.000I mean, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings.
00:48:44.000With human beings, we've decided that we are so complex, we're so weird, that all the rules of standard biology that apply to all the other species on planet Earth do not apply to us.
00:48:55.000Yeah, and what's also frustrating is that people will then say, oh, the newest science shows that this is true.
00:49:02.000And I'm thinking, what science are you talking about, right?
00:49:04.000But people will Well, I guess the newest science shows that.
00:49:43.000And you know, one of my close friends is Josh Barnett.
00:49:45.000And through the process of writing this book, I would say to him, I feel like I'm standing outside and pointing at the sky and saying the sky is blue.
00:49:57.000And that's what it's gonna be like, I think, when people start reading this book.
00:50:00.000And I ask anyone who, because the things I say are misconstrued all the time.
00:50:07.000People either, I think, are misrepresenting what I say.
00:50:10.000There are certain things that people say I say that I would never say.
00:50:13.000And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about where I stand on these issues.
00:50:20.000Because I think a lot of the time people, especially activists, are people who are really invested The way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda.
00:50:33.000And I'm thinking, if you really care about these populations that you claim to care about, why would you not actually be going after the people who are actually hateful, who are actually saying the things that you claim I say?
00:50:44.000And I think what a lot of it is, is about clout.
00:50:46.000It's not actually about making positive change.
00:50:49.000Yeah, anybody who thinks gender is a social construct needs to meet Josh Barnett.
00:51:09.000The reasons that we discussed earlier in terms of the blowback that people get and in terms of when you're compliant, the support that you get is all influencing the way people behave and this willingness to go along with that narrative because you're terrified of being criticized,
00:51:35.000I mean, I'm 52. When I was young, the left was tolerant, open-minded, and absolutely committed to freedom of speech.
00:51:43.000That doesn't seem to be where we're at now.
00:51:46.000We've gotten into some really radical place where the left is now, they've almost weaponized a lot of left-wing ideological values to combat right-wing Values.
00:52:00.000It's like they've gotten more loony to deal with loony people on the right and don't even realize they've become their own enemy.
00:52:07.000They've become something that the left was never – the left was always, you know, when I was a young person, was always the most tolerant of the groups.
00:52:16.000And it just doesn't seem to be the case now.
00:52:18.000It seems to be that they're only tolerant if you follow the ideology that they follow.
00:52:24.000And if you don't, there's no discussion about it.
00:52:26.000You're a hateful person, and there's this immediate hot take.
00:52:34.000There's no room for discussion, information, no room for actual science, no room for understanding the nuance of psychology and of human beings.
00:52:46.000Yeah, and I don't think it's helpful because, yeah, I think the far right is a concern, but the response to that or the solution to that is not to double down and go completely in the opposite direction where you're just as insane.
00:53:02.000Most liberals don't feel like the far left really encompasses anything that they stand for, and it's in fact alienating them from these issues.
00:53:11.000Yeah, I would agree with that entirely.
00:53:13.000There's so many of us that are on the left that are so confused now.
00:53:17.000They feel like we're people without countries.
00:53:19.000Like, this is not, you know what I mean?
00:53:23.000Because I'm not these people that want to defund the police and light the federal buildings on fire, so what am I? You know, you have to be that to be left.
00:53:31.000Have you had any conversations with people, trans activists or any people that opposed you or angry at you where you were able to sway them?
00:53:44.000I wrote in the book actually, there was one activist who was willing to sit down with me and I interviewed her and I was really grateful for that.
00:53:58.000I try to follow what people angrily tweet at me and comment on my work and things like that because I do think it's important to be open to Other perspectives.
00:54:10.000I don't know that I'm able to change anyone's mind, but that's okay.
00:54:14.000I think the evidence speaks for itself.
00:54:16.000And I think if people want to listen to that, that's their business.
00:54:40.000Now, when you sat down with this trans activist, or this person, and she disagreed with you on all these things, what were they specifically that she disagreed on?
00:54:52.000Well, with the pediatric transition, that's one big point.
00:54:56.000Also, things like the discussion of trans women and whether trans women should be considered women full stop.
00:55:03.000And I do consider trans women to be women, but I also think there are some differences, and I don't think it should be considered hateful to point them out.
00:55:11.000I will, again, use the pronoun someone wants me to use, and there's no issue there.
00:55:16.000But in some contexts, it's very important that we are able to talk about this, because like with fighting, There are serious implications if someone who is a trans woman fights someone who is born female or something like prisons.
00:55:32.000I used to work with sex offenders, both clinically and in a research capacity.
00:55:38.000Sex offenders cannot be taken at face value.
00:55:41.000If they say they identify as female and they get put into a female prison, How does anyone who works in forensics think that's a good idea?
00:55:54.000If you spend any time with sex offenders, you know that you cannot base any decision on what they tell you.
00:56:26.000In one direction, like you're saying, you can't even have this conversation or that certain topics are taken off the table without any discussion because of the fear that there's going to be some sort of backlash or people are going to think that you're a bad person for even considering it.
00:56:41.000And what about, you said that you guys disagreed about infants.
00:56:49.000I feel that's one subject that it's really...
00:56:52.000Sometimes with activists, you really can't make any...
00:56:58.000It's just that we come to a standstill.
00:57:00.000And in the book, I do list a number of criticisms that activists and certain groups have pointed out with regard to why early in transitioning is better.
00:57:10.000There was one study that last year that got a lot of attention, say with brain imaging, saying that the brains of these children are more like the opposite sex.
00:57:20.000And so this supports the idea that they should transition at a young age.
00:57:23.000But the thing is, so For people who are trans, their brains do tend to be shifted in the direction of the sex they identify as when you use brain imaging techniques.
00:57:32.000But the thing is, for all of these studies, their sexual orientation is gay.
00:57:38.000So in sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, when we look at sexual orientation in the context of trans people, it's based on their birth sex.
00:57:47.000So say a trans woman She was born male, identifies as female.
00:57:52.000So if she's attracted to men, that's considered gay because her partner would share her birth sex.
00:57:58.000So for all these studies on trans people, they're conflated with sexual orientation because everyone in the study is also gay.
00:58:05.000So we don't know if the brain differences we're seeing are due to them identifying as the opposite sex or due to them being gay.
00:58:12.000So with this study with the children, they did not Report the sexual orientation so we can't know because most kids who a lot of kids who are gender atypical right and who are gender dysphoric again There's a correlation there with being gay when they're older So I don't know why that wasn't even pointed out because that study got so much information so much coverage and anyone who knows anything about sex research knows that How do you account for the seemingly large number of men who transition to become women who become
00:58:53.000And before I say anything about this, I want to really make clear, I do not want this information to be used to hold back trans people.
00:59:01.000I don't want this to be used to support negative stereotypes about trans women in particular.
00:59:07.000But for some trans women, their desire to transition stems from sexual arousal and the idea that becoming a woman is actually sexually arousing.
00:59:21.000Yeah, and I chose to write about this because, again, I have so many people who reach out to me saying that they experience this and they don't know what it is.
00:59:29.000And it's called autogynophilia, which translates, that's a Greek word, to say love of oneself as a woman.
00:59:36.000And it's a paraphilia, which is an unusual sexual preference.
00:59:40.000And paraphilias were my research expertise when I was in academia.
00:59:43.000So I wrote about this, and no one has really talked about this in the mainstream, And because I want people who feel this way to be able to understand themselves and to know there's a whole bunch of information out there for you.
00:59:55.000If you Google this, everything that comes out is that this is not a real phenomenon.
01:00:00.000You know, this is made up by hateful sex researchers to invalidate trans people.
01:00:05.000This is quote-unquote outdated medical research.
01:00:10.000Everyone in the field knows it's real, including clinicians.
01:00:22.000So, this is where it's confusing to me, because if you do transition, if you're a male and you transition to female, if you are aroused by the idea of being a female, and you're aroused by women, so you want to become a lesbian,
01:00:38.000essentially, but if you transition surgically, You're going to remove your ability to have an orgasm.
01:00:46.000You're going to remove your ability to even be aroused as a male would be.
01:01:43.000But I know of at least one, no, I know of two that became lesbians and did have bottom surgery.
01:01:52.000So if that was the thing, if that was what excited them, this idea of being a woman sexually excited them, once you transition and have bottom surgery, am I right in saying that you can't have orgasms?
01:02:07.000No, some people are still able to have orgasms after.
01:02:52.000I have not undergone the surgery, so I can't speak from experience, but I have heard people say that they are able to maintain orgasm after.
01:03:53.000I would say there's definitely a risk of losing it, of losing that sensation and losing sexual function.
01:03:59.000So that's also why I think it's important to be able to talk about this because for people who experience these feelings...
01:04:07.000Maybe, you know, transitioning may or may not be right for them.
01:04:10.000I do think some people with autogynephilia, yes, transitioning can help them.
01:04:13.000I don't think autogynephilia is a reason to stop someone from transitioning.
01:04:16.000But if there's someone who can feel that way and not transition, as you're mentioning, they will maintain, you know, full sexual functioning.
01:04:23.000So that's something that should be taken into account.
01:04:26.000And again, I'm sorry, define once again autogynephilia?
01:05:02.000And I can probably count on maybe a few fingers the number of people I know who are doing it and are not ideological and are ethical as scientists and have no agenda and they're not trying to push any particular findings.
01:05:16.000They're just doing the research as a good scientist would to see what they find.
01:05:22.000And these people that are doing this, are they primarily in the United States?
01:05:27.000Are there other countries that have different perspectives on this, where they're more open to this kind of research and just purely from a scientific standpoint trying to get an understanding of what's actually happening?
01:05:58.000My colleagues have been able to get funding quite readily here, but it's more the political climate, I think, that is really turning people away from studying subjects that would be of interest and that I think are very important.
01:06:12.000When you see a culture like Thailand, for instance, that has a large number of ladyboys, what do you think causes that?
01:06:42.000I would think it could be culturally determined in some ways, too, because there are some cultures where being a feminine...
01:06:50.000Someone who's born male who's very feminine may be encouraged to transition because it's more acceptable to be a...
01:07:02.000If we go back to the children, I do think for some of the parents who are in support of allowing their child to transition, I think it is coming from homophobia because their sense is that if they have a very feminine son over a masculine daughter, I think more so for the feminine sons,
01:07:18.000if they don't want a gay son, well, if this child transitions to female, then she will appear to be a straight woman when she's attracted to men when she gets older.
01:07:28.000I had a conversation with someone where they were praising Iran, and they were saying Iran is less homophobic, or excuse me, less transphobic than the United States.
01:07:38.000And they were talking about how many people transition over there.
01:08:13.000I mean, sometimes people like to say things because they have a thought in their head that they think, you know, they haven't really fleshed it out.
01:08:19.000And they're like, well, this is, look, look at this.
01:08:21.000Well, you know, some places in the Middle East are very open-minded.
01:08:24.000And I was like, that's not open-minded.
01:08:41.000And I think the only way we're going to find out who's who and what's what, and let people make a real, honest, balanced choice, is to have no bigotry.
01:08:51.000And that includes bigotry of information.
01:08:54.000That includes keeping people from discussing and exploring subjects without hate.
01:09:04.000Which is what you're doing and this is why it's so crazy that people are attacking you and they go after your work because I think in many ways people that are on the fence about this stuff, it throws them to the wrong side.
01:09:31.000Yeah, I've had some trans people reach out to me saying that, that the things that some of these activists stand for are not And they say that they're actually quite mortified that these are the things that some people,
01:09:47.000not even trans activists, I think some allies even, some people who are not transgender who decide to take it upon themselves to speak for the community because they think that's, I guess, the right thing to do.
01:09:57.000And actual trans people are saying, you don't speak for us.
01:10:00.000We don't want these things that you are saying.
01:10:46.000And I can see that logic because by inflating the number of people who identify this way, and so also with the trans umbrella, it's now widened to also include third genders or anyone who is even just simply gender non-conforming.
01:11:01.000So I think part of this is driven by the desire to inflate numbers so that that can, in their mind, justify acceptance.
01:11:10.000But I don't see why we can't just say, yes, we should accept everyone.
01:11:16.000We don't have to widen the definition of what it means to be trans.
01:11:19.000And even within the community, you have people who are trans, who have transitioned, who have medically transitioned, who are saying people who identify as a third gender or who are mildly gender nonconforming, they're not the same as me.
01:11:33.000And it's not appropriate to say we're the same.
01:11:36.000And again, from my perspective, if someone is struggling with their feelings around gender, it's not helpful to lump them all as one because again, they're coming from different root causes.
01:11:45.000So if you can't talk about what the root cause is, you're not going to help someone.
01:11:49.000Yeah, I would agree, and I think that one of the things we might be encountering here is that the acceptance of this is fairly novel, and the new perception of trans people, this new acceptance of it, is we're working it out, you know?
01:12:04.000And I think in the process of working it out, you've got a lot of virtue signaling, you've got a lot of people that are conforming and they're not exactly sure what they're conforming to, and we're trying to figure out how How to determine what's natural, what's not, what's right,
01:12:19.000what's wrong, what's healthy for people, what's hateful, what's not hateful.
01:12:27.000And in the middle of this chaos, it's very difficult to sort it out.
01:12:34.000Yeah, and I think also when you're saying with what's natural, I think some people, part of the push with the children is to say, look, if kids are feeling this way and society accepts us and children, then again, this is something that people can't argue against, right?
01:12:48.000I think it's part of a larger goal to facilitate acceptance for adults as well.
01:12:53.000And again, there's no reason why we can't do that.
01:12:57.000Tokenize these children as a way to do that.
01:13:00.000What is the argument for doing it with children?
01:13:02.000Is the argument that the earlier they transition, the quicker they'll be happy, the more time they'll spend in the gender that they belong to rather than the gender of their birth?
01:13:14.000Right, and also that if they block puberty that they will not go through these physiological changes that are going to make it more difficult for them to identify as the opposite sex.
01:13:25.000Yeah, this is a really, one of the things that was disturbing to me that didn't make any goddamn sense was people saying that you can block their hormones and then if they change their mind, it's easily reversible.
01:13:36.000And I'm like, you don't understand human development.
01:13:58.000There's radical changes to the body that are irreversible when you block hormones at a very young age.
01:14:03.000I had this conversation with someone on the podcast just a year or so ago where they were saying, if the child changes their opinion, you could always reverse it.
01:14:14.000If you're introducing estrogen to a six-year-old and you're telling me when they're 14, it's going to be the same as if they didn't introduce estrogen and they didn't block their hormones.
01:14:22.000That's crazy talk, but that shows to me where people's minds are when it comes to this.
01:14:27.000They want something to be true, and they argue it as if it's true.
01:14:32.000And then it goes along with this whole conformity thing, where everybody has to conform to show that they are on the right side of this ideology, and that if you don't, you'll be attacked.
01:14:43.000Well, the thing is too, this is what is being promoted, right, in the mainstream in terms of anything to do with trans issues.
01:14:49.000This is what you see is that these blockers are perfectly...
01:15:47.000I have a number of parents who I've met over the years who asked me what they think about it.
01:15:53.000That entire chapter I wrote, chapter five, was all the advice I wish I could tell them face to face, but it's very difficult when a parent is asking you this and you don't feel like it's...
01:16:04.000What I think about their parenting decisions.
01:16:06.000But you can see the pain in their eyes.
01:16:36.000We're spending a lot of time talking about the negative aspects of transitioning, even if it's just transitioning as children or rapid onset gender dysphoria that occurs in teenage girls, particularly with autism.
01:16:50.000But let's try to be positive about this.
01:16:56.000And I wanted to know, did you cover that at all?
01:16:59.000For what What are the characteristics or what groups of people find that this actually does work out well for them, even at a young age?
01:17:12.000And how would a young person absolutely and definitively know, or is it just completely personal, whether or not they are in the wrong gender and what are the benefits of transitioning early?
01:17:24.000There was one meta-analysis, I believe it was of 27 studies, that did show for people who have transitioned that they do experience a lessening of feelings of gender dysphoria and their life satisfaction goes up and other comorbid issues that they might have like anxiety,
01:17:42.000depression, substance use, all those things go down.
01:17:45.000So like I said, I do think transitioning can help people.
01:17:47.000And I think, you know, I'm glad that you mentioned that because I don't want it to be all doom and gloom and I don't want I want it to seem like this is such a heavy, negative issue.
01:17:58.000And I think it's good that there is more awareness about this.
01:18:01.000And I do think it's good that society is on board with helping trans people and supporting them.
01:18:06.000In terms of how people determine whether it's the right choice for them, I think, again, it's a good mental health professional who can determine, go through a proper assessment.
01:18:16.000And if you make this decision, so I should clarify, I'm not a clinician.
01:18:24.000Colleagues, you know, this is a decision that you're making over a period of time, and you've really asked yourself if this is the right choice for you, in which case, yeah, I think that's great.
01:18:36.000And there's an issue with a lot of trans people of being accepted.
01:18:42.000And how much of a factor is that in their happiness?
01:18:46.000I mean, that's one of the things that I would say is probably responsible for a lot of this promotion of positivity or promotion of people being accepted.
01:18:57.000You know reluctant to criticize people or or discuss in any negative way trans issues is that they want to support people that are doing this very difficult life-changing decision and When when they are doing that It's such a difficult thing to discuss,
01:20:04.000If you were to design the study to be able to make cause and effect conclusions, you would need to do random assignment and things like that.
01:20:12.000But they're basically saying that if these people hadn't transitioned, there's a possibility that they would have fared even worse.
01:20:19.000So I think it goes back to just it being on a case-by-case basis.
01:20:24.000I don't think we should be generalizing in either direction.
01:21:10.000And I get how it can probably come across as patronizing for someone like me to step in and have a voice because they'll say, what do you know about what we experience in day-to-day life?
01:21:22.000But I'm coming from the perspective of being a scientific researcher and knowing the research literature and being non-ideological and seeing...
01:21:33.000Seeing why there's such an imbalance in terms of this conversation is because people are afraid.
01:21:58.000Do you feel like this is something you'll be studying for years to come and discussing and talking about for years to come?
01:22:03.000Or do you feel like there's going to come a point in time where you can want to move on to other subjects?
01:22:08.000Well, I'm so grateful for this, to write a book.
01:22:12.000I mean, to write a book is an absolute dream.
01:22:14.000It's been something I've been wanting to do since I was a child.
01:22:16.000So I'm super grateful to my editor, Natasha, for that.
01:22:19.000In terms of me and my career, I mean, there's so many things that I plan to do.
01:22:25.000In terms of the subjects, this just happened to be the one thing that I wrote my first book about.
01:22:30.000But even within the book, I cover a bunch of different issues.
01:22:32.000I talk about sex differences in dating.
01:22:34.000That's something else I think is really important to approach dating and sex in a way that's evidence-based, which I feel like a lot of young people are not doing today.
01:22:47.000Say in the name of gender equality, one big myth is that men and women should act the same when it comes to romantic relationships and sex, and I think that actually harms both women and men.
01:22:58.000Now, you're raising your eyebrows, but you'd be surprised at what's out there.
01:23:03.000What do you mean by that, that men and women should act the same?
01:23:07.000Well, just that say, so women, some women love casual sex, and I say power to you, but I think most women on average do not enjoy casual sex as much as men.
01:23:18.000And so, but they're being told that this is how you should behave to be an enlightened woman.
01:23:22.000And I'm saying, you know, I think it's totally fine to just do you.
01:23:26.000You don't have to do anything in the name of being an enlightened woman.
01:23:29.000And if, say, you don't like casual sex, that's totally fine too.
01:23:32.000And I think also there's a sense that If women require an investment from their partners, I mean in terms of an emotional investment or effort, that that's somehow being high maintenance, but from an evolutionary perspective that's actually beneficial because women want to know that in the event that you do end up carrying this person's offspring that they will be there to help you.
01:23:53.000I didn't know that this was something that's being promoted.
01:23:56.000So women are being encouraged to behave like men, to be an empowered woman, to have this non-emotionally connected sexual relationship and to have casual intercourse with people and not worry about it because that's what makes you an empowered woman?
01:24:13.000And I think also evolutionary psychology has a bad rap because people think it's sexist or they think that it says that women should be confined to certain stereotypical gender roles or that women are inferior to men or that women should be sexually submissive.
01:24:29.000And I'm not saying any of those things.
01:24:31.000I just think, again, if you try to hide what science and reality is, it's not going to help you.
01:24:38.000I've never understood that line of thinking.
01:24:40.000I never understood why people think that evolutionary biology means women should be confined to very specific behaviors or interests.
01:24:51.000It's just pointing out that for the most part A lot of women gravitate towards these areas.
01:25:29.000I don't think that evolutionary biology, when it shows that the vast majority of women don't gravitate towards those things, I don't think that that's sexist.
01:25:39.000And I don't think it's encouraging women to have any specific interests.
01:25:49.000Right, and there's a biological component to that, right?
01:25:51.000Because for women who are more male-typical, they're likely exposed to higher levels of testosterone in the womb.
01:25:58.000But to go back to your earlier point about where I go next, and do I feel pigeonholed?
01:26:02.000Not really, because I do write about a whole bunch of different issues.
01:26:05.000Even outside of sex research, I write about politics more widely, more so the cultural aspect of them.
01:26:12.000But yeah, I feel like I'm at a very fortunate point right now in my career.
01:26:18.000The reason why I'm saying it is I feel almost pigeonholed by having this conversation with you because I'm having two trans-oriented conversations in the last month or so, and I've had a couple of them before.
01:26:28.000I've even got messages from people like, why are you interested in this?
01:26:32.000Well, goddammit, I'm interested in everything.
01:26:40.000I want people to think that the reason why I'm interested is because I'm discouraging it or I'm anti-trans because I'm absolutely not.
01:26:48.000But I am also anti-ideologically based thinking that's not logical or fact-based or that discourages people from asking nuanced questions or observing things for what they really are instead of what a certain segment of society wants you to think of them as.
01:27:10.000Well, and you know, to people who are saying that to you, I honestly believe, give it a couple years and you won't be asking that question anymore because we will see why these conversations were so critical.
01:27:20.000Because we will see the aftermath of not talking about these things.
01:27:32.000Disturbs me and makes me very fearful.
01:27:35.000I know people whose children, very young children, they believe are trans and they're going to go through this whole thing and give them hormone blockers.
01:27:46.000You know, I have no business to tell them differently.
01:28:19.000And I think that's why this discussion is so important because the ramifications of making a wrong choice or of influencing or of deciding for that child, it's so great.
01:28:30.000Can I ask you, how do you deal with the pushback?
01:28:33.000Because it doesn't seem to affect you at all, and I love that.
01:28:36.000And I'm wondering, has it always been like that for you, or was there a very conscious decision on your part to just not listen to it?
01:29:21.000If you have a rigid ideology that doesn't make sense and I oppose it, I oppose that idea that this rigid ideology that doesn't make sense should just be left alone and never discussed.
01:29:34.000It's a threat to your own personal mindset.
01:29:53.000I genuinely want as many people in this world to be happy as possible and to be loving to each other and to be kind and open-minded and to allow people to live their life the way they see fit as long as it's not doing any harm to other people.
01:30:08.000And as long as I don't think that's a bad thing, and as long as I have this opportunity to express myself the way I really feel, I'm going to continue to do it.
01:30:22.000And I'm so glad I get to chat with you semi-face-to-face and actually congratulate you in person for the Spotify deal because it's just amazing.
01:30:30.000It's really inspiring to see someone who has literally built it from a grown-up and you're self-made.
01:30:38.000For all of us who are watching, it shows that you can do it too, if you work really hard, probably.
01:30:42.000Debra, it's weird, you know, because there's nothing I ever planned.
01:31:23.000Where it's at now is very, very, very strange.
01:31:26.000And if I keep doing it, if I keep having interesting people like you on and keep having these interesting discussions, I guess it just keeps getting stranger and stranger.
01:31:48.000And I don't think there's anything wrong with having these discussions.
01:31:51.000And if people want me to have a trans person on to show the opposite perspective, I would love to.
01:32:01.000I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with what we're saying.
01:32:04.000I really don't and Particularly when it comes to children.
01:32:08.000I just I can't imagine that there's an argument against what you're saying I Just think the truth speaks for itself, you know and what you're saying in terms of you know where you're coming from I also know where I'm coming from and I know what my intentions are No one else knows so that's at the end of the day.
01:32:26.000That's how I sleep at night and I know that People are gonna see that what you and I are saying right now is true.
01:32:33.000It doesn't matter all the people who wanna call me names and say that I'm a bad person because I know that I'm really just trying to protect these children.
01:32:41.000I think you are as well and nothing but love and respect for all the people that do transition and are happy with it nothing but love and Just I know that I know that you're coming from a good place and I really do hope that it does some good and that there are people that listen to this and do get they get a different perspective and Perhaps do a little research and realize like we're but we might be about to make a terrible mistake that you can't change and Yeah,
01:33:33.000I feel journalism has opened up this freedom that I unfortunately did not have as an academic scientist.
01:33:39.000Well, I think the world of journalism and particularly the world of open and free media, new media like podcasts, it really needs people like you.
01:33:51.000It really needs academics who have decided to use the freedom that you get from new media.
01:33:57.000And explore these subjects in a non-confined way.
01:34:02.000So many academics feel confined by institutions and by the politics involved in these institutions to the point where these subjects can't get discussed because of these rigid ideologies.
01:34:13.000I think it's so important that people like you do express yourself the way you're doing and bravely.
01:34:20.000I think it's really, for our culture, it's very, very important.
01:34:26.000But, you know, also with journalism, I would say, you know, I get it because I think some journalists who write about very far left themes, I don't know that they necessarily agree with what they're writing about.
01:34:37.000But at the end of the day, you need a paycheck.
01:34:39.000And if that's what you need to write about, then that's what they write about because it can be hard, right?
01:34:45.000And journalism is a very competitive industry.
01:34:50.000I like the fact that there is so much more room now in terms of people doing their own thing.
01:34:56.000I'm very, very grateful for the platforms who have me on and the editors and outlets who let me write for them because I think there needs to be more of a balance.
01:35:05.000And I think people also are growing tired of only one acceptable way of thought being promoted, right?
01:35:15.000And I think what you're saying is very true in terms of journalism.
01:35:17.000Journalism is so important, but unfortunately for many journalists, the traditional avenues of journalism, whether it's print-based or even television, those things are drying up.
01:36:59.000I mean, I've talked about this many times.
01:37:00.000I would love it if somebody came out with a really, truly objective, fact-based news source with everything, where there's no bias left or right at all.
01:37:09.000And they're just looking at the absolute, concrete, irrefutable facts of every different situation and every different story in the news.
01:37:18.000I mean, I think that would be fantastic.
01:37:20.000I think a lot of people like myself and probably you as well, and a lot of people listening would gravitate to.
01:37:25.000And I think there's a real market for it.
01:37:27.000I just don't know if you could actually do it.
01:37:29.000Because I think that if you get a bunch of people together and you put together some sort of an organization, you're going to have an ideological bend to it.
01:37:36.000They're going to lean one way or the other.
01:37:38.000And then they're going to omit facts or add their own opinions to things or editorialize.
01:37:44.000And next thing you know, you're left or right.
01:37:46.000You're CNN or you're Fox or whatever the fuck you are.
01:37:50.000Well, that's the thing, because we all have our own biases.
01:37:52.000And then I think the main thing is, are you aware of those biases, and do you try to counter them?
01:37:57.000I think, for myself, I'm a columnist, so I have more room in terms of giving my own opinions.
01:38:25.000You don't have any problem at all with porn.
01:38:28.000You think porn is fine and porn is recreational.
01:38:31.000A lot of people would push back against that.
01:38:34.000And a lot of people would push back and they would say that it's damaging to young women, that it objectifies women in a harmful way, and that it changes the way young people in particular look at sex.
01:38:48.000And that they mirror and model themselves after these very unrealistic scenarios that are depicted in these films.
01:39:05.000I think that pornography has a time and place.
01:39:07.000I think if you're an adult, in terms of sex more broadly, whatever's consensual, that's your business.
01:39:14.000But I do think, especially young children, I don't think that's good for their development.
01:39:19.000I don't think that that's a way that people should learn about what sex is going to be like, because pornography is not indicative of what real-life sex is.
01:39:36.000There's so many different angles in terms of the criticisms of porn, but one common criticism is that pornography makes men interested in things that are potentially degrading to women.
01:39:47.000I do think there is some pornography that is not very nice in the way it depicts women, for sure.
01:39:53.000I don't think viewing that as what makes men misogynistic or disrespectful of their partners.
01:40:00.000I think that's something that is inherent in them.
01:40:02.000And again, as someone who has worked with sex offenders, antisociality is more predictive of someone's behavior and their views of women.
01:40:12.000Because I think most pro-social men, if they see something that's very degrading and awful to women, they're going to say, that's horrible and I don't want to look at that.
01:40:20.000I think the issue is not really with porn as much as the issue is with human beings.
01:40:27.000I think that porn is in a lot of ways like many things, like alcohol for instance.
01:40:34.000You can have a drink every now and then or you can drink all day long and ruin your life.
01:42:27.000So why is it such a big deal to film it?
01:42:31.000Why is it such a big deal to show it to other people?
01:42:33.000It's a very strange aspect of being a human being, that this is one thing that so many people are obsessed with and literally go out of their way to be successful so they can get more sex.
01:42:45.000If you ask men, if men could not have sex, how many men would be driving Ferraris and taking selfies in front of private jets?
01:43:05.000Well, maybe to show off to other men, but more likely to show off to whoever they're attracted to, whether it's the opposite sex or the same sex.
01:43:33.000I don't doubt that for some people, porn is a problem, for sure.
01:43:36.000And like you're saying, there's some people who watch for hours.
01:43:38.000In the research I was doing before, there are some people I would talk to who would literally sit and watch pornography eight, 12 hours a day, and it's affecting work.
01:44:11.000I guess it depends on what, if you're meaning addiction as in like a colloquial use of the word, maybe.
01:44:18.000But in terms of, if you're talking about drug and alcohol addiction, it's not because drug and alcohol addiction is characterized by tolerance and withdrawal.
01:44:26.000So people who, people, some people will argue, like I said, with pornography that if they watch it and they start watching more extreme versions of it, they're saying that this is, you know, my tolerance.
01:44:35.000But if you actually sit and have a conversation with those people, they'll say, actually, this is what I've liked all along.
01:44:47.000Well, they might not have physical withdrawal, but they do get obsessed with it, and they do have a compulsion to look at it.
01:44:53.000I know people that if they take a day from porn, they think about it all the time, and they can't wait to get alone to watch it.
01:45:00.000I think it is an addiction and I think it is similar to a drug addiction the same way gambling is similar to a drug addiction.
01:46:11.000But the thing is with people with so-called pornography addiction, and research has shown this, if you give them other coping skills and ways to deal with stress in their life, or you teach them, say they give them a surgery, That's interesting,
01:46:33.000and I wonder if you get healthy user bias, because if you're getting someone that is willing to admit and accept the fact that they do have some sort of sex or pornography addiction, That's not the average person.
01:46:47.000I think there's a lot of people out there that are addicted to porn, but you never hear from them because there's so much shame attached to it.
01:47:15.000I think it was maybe two years ago, everyone was talking about porn addiction.
01:47:19.000And within the field, people who work with people with problems with pornography in a therapeutic context will say, you know, that it's not an addiction.
01:47:28.000There are other things usually going on in someone's life.
01:47:30.000And those are the things that you need to talk about when you sit down with a therapist.
01:47:35.000Yeah, I mean, I guess I would agree that for a lot of people probably is procrastination, and there's probably a lot of other factors as well.
01:49:32.000And I don't blame them for making assumptions because people tend to study what they find interesting.
01:49:37.000And usually I think people think you have some sort of personal reason for studying the things that you do.
01:49:43.000For me, my research expertise was basically kinky sex and sex toys.
01:49:46.000I'm extremely vanilla and monogamous and actually pretty boring.
01:49:50.000So, you know, for me it was a way of living vicariously through people that I would talk to when I would go out and study these different populations.
01:49:58.000Or studying something, perhaps, that doesn't jive with your own proclivities.
01:50:05.000Yeah, I think, I mean, most people would say that human sexuality is really fascinating.
01:50:10.000And I would have a number of people say to me in the time when I was in graduate school that they wish they had also been studying sex, but they, you know, were afraid of what people would think or it's too stigmatized.
01:50:20.000And I think that's really a shame because the more people who are interested in doing good work, then that's going to help everybody.
01:50:26.000Yeah, it's one of those things where people are like, why are you studying that?
01:50:46.000Like the idea of studying it being a problem is very odd, but I wonder if it's like different in Canada than it is in America, because Canada seems to have a healthier perspective in general about sex.
01:50:59.000I think America still has, for whatever reason, the echoes of the Puritan ideology that was established when this country was founded.
01:51:08.000Because we have comprehensive sex education.
01:51:12.000As far as I know, for the most part, that's what is predominantly taught in schools with children.
01:51:18.000And so I think the idea of sex ed makes people uncomfortable because some adults will say, you're introducing ideas into kids' heads, you know, they wouldn't I wouldn't otherwise be thinking about these things, but studies have actually shown that children who get comprehensive sex education,
01:51:34.000of course, if it's age appropriate, actually make better decisions when it comes to their sexual health.
01:51:39.000They're more likely to delay when they start having sex, and they're more likely to use contraception when they do.
01:51:44.000So that's in contrast to abstinence-only sex, which basically tells you to wait until marriage.
01:54:24.000I also don't think men and women should be held to different standards when it comes to that, and I think Especially them being chaste, and when I say chaste, I mean C-H-A-S-T-E, and being virginal, right?
01:54:37.000And protecting their whatever, quote unquote, inherent value as women by being virginal.
01:54:46.000I think it should be, you know, if we're gonna say that sex is something special and you should choose carefully who you have sex with, that should be across the board.
01:54:53.000And conversely, if we're saying that people should be able to have sex, as much sex as they want, and that's fantastic, then that should be across the board also.
01:55:01.000And that does exist in other countries.
01:55:04.000But for whatever reason, in America, we, generally speaking, don't have that value.
01:55:10.000And I guess that would be why people that are striving for women's equality would tell women that you are exactly the same thing as a man and you should pursue the same things men do, like casual sex, to sort of affirm that a man and women are the same in that respect.
01:55:30.000Yeah, I think that's what the intention is, where it's coming from.
01:55:34.000But again, at the end of the day, I'm just about making choices that are good for you and that make you happy.
01:55:39.000And there's no need to feel pressure to behave in a certain way.
01:55:42.000You know, I have young women who reach out to me who will say a lot that they can't perform like they're straight and they can't perform like they're male partners and that worries them.
01:55:50.000Because for men, you know, if they're turned on, they're turned on.
01:55:55.000You know, it's a bit more context dependent.
01:55:57.000And if you're telling young women that they need to be exactly the same as men, they're gonna think, they're gonna internalize this and think there's something wrong with them.
01:56:04.000And that just makes me so sad because there's nothing wrong with the way our system, the way we're built, right?
01:56:16.000You know, I think having these kind of conversations about it and hopefully people will hear these conversations and it'll broaden their ideas and broaden their perspectives.
01:56:53.000The way they're handling this is so bad.
01:56:56.000I'm just upset with the federal government's handling of this.
01:56:59.000There's so many people that are just financially so fucked right now.
01:57:03.000And I think people should be I mean, I don't want to say people should be held accountable for it, but I think people should make decisions based on the way the place that they live is handling this really difficult problem.
01:57:19.000And the solution they've come up with in California is to jack up taxes.
01:57:23.000So the most recent solution was to jack up taxes to 54%.
01:57:26.000I'm like, you guys are out of your fucking mind.
01:59:44.000It gives you a distorted view of nature, you know, and I think that's one of the reasons why people in LA are so delusional.
01:59:51.000They very rarely have to deal with actual nature.
01:59:54.000I always felt like there was something real humbling about growing up in Boston because it got so goddamn cold and it snowed so much that you just knew, like, there were certain point in times where you had to submit to nature.
02:00:05.000You had to huddle in, there's two feet of snow outside, you just stayed home.
02:00:10.000You just, you know, hung out with the family.
02:01:12.000I will be starting a new podcast, so I would tell everyone to follow me on social media.
02:01:16.000I'm at Dr. Debra So on Twitter and Facebook and at Dr. Debra W. So on Instagram and I'll be announcing a whole bunch of new stuff coming soon.
02:01:24.000And it's D-E-B-R-A. So nothing crazy with the O and the H. A lot of people like to...
02:01:30.000Debra can be spelled so many different ways, right?