The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1593 - Dr. Carl Hart

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day.

00:00:07.000 Joe Rogan Podcast by night.

00:00:08.000 All day.

00:00:14.000 It's got, like, a lot of freedom.

00:00:16.000 Like, their ethos here, the way they look at things.

00:00:20.000 Like, they're not interested in the government telling them what to do.

00:00:23.000 I gotta tell you, you know, I was standing downtown, and I never saw homelessness here.

00:00:28.000 I saw people, like, working, a lot of jobs.

00:00:33.000 But now, I mean, what I saw when I was downtown, it's like I hadn't seen homelessness like this in Texas ever.

00:00:40.000 No, it's a new thing.

00:00:41.000 The government here changed the laws in terms of allowing people to camp out. 0.97

00:00:46.000 And so they camp out under underpasses and all that kind of shit.

00:00:49.000 Have you been to LA recently? 0.72

00:00:51.000 Not recently.

00:00:53.000 LA's insane. 0.78

00:00:54.000 Yeah, but LA's always been that way.

00:00:55.000 Never like this, though.

00:00:56.000 Never like this.

00:00:57.000 I've never seen Texas like this.

00:01:00.000 Oh, yeah.

00:01:01.000 Texas have always seemed like they had jobs and people were working.

00:01:04.000 I've never seen this before.

00:01:06.000 Well, the COVID lockdowns affected everywhere, and I think it affected here less than it affected L.A., but I think the real thing is, you know, I mean, it's mental health, right?

00:01:19.000 That's the real reason most of those folks are out there.

00:01:21.000 They really need care.

00:01:22.000 That's it.

00:01:23.000 And then, you know, you've got a lot of drug addicts, and you've got a lot of mental health, which brings up your book, Drug Use for Grownups.

00:01:30.000 Drug Use for Grownups, man.

00:01:32.000 First of all, it's great to see you again.

00:01:33.000 It's been a while.

00:01:34.000 How long has it been?

00:01:36.000 About five, six years, man.

00:01:38.000 I didn't realize.

00:01:39.000 The world keeps spinning.

00:01:40.000 Yeah, you know, I didn't realize it was that long, man.

00:01:43.000 Actually, I was trying not to just be in the public for the sake of being in the public.

00:01:49.000 I always want to make sure I got something to say.

00:01:51.000 But really, I miss you.

00:01:53.000 I mean, I miss being here and I really dig what you do and the people you bring on.

00:01:58.000 Some people don't like them.

00:02:00.000 But I really, the space you created, thank you.

00:02:03.000 My pleasure.

00:02:04.000 Thank you.

00:02:05.000 Well, you know, it's a weird thing to be able to just talk to people.

00:02:10.000 And then the whole world listens.

00:02:12.000 Like, what do you got to say?

00:02:13.000 What's this person have to say?

00:02:15.000 What's this about?

00:02:16.000 You know what's remarkable for me is that you're a comedian, right?

00:02:21.000 That's what you were.

00:02:24.000 And the comedians have been our sort of saviors.

00:02:29.000 Of all people in our society, that's who we look to, the comedians, because they can tell the truth.

00:02:35.000 It's so nice to see Louis C.K. coming back.

00:02:39.000 These people coming back. 1.00

00:02:42.000 Bill Burr, I just love the shit that he's doing. 0.99

00:02:45.000 I mean, you know, we're not for the comedians. 1.00

00:02:48.000 We really be fucked up. 0.99

00:02:49.000 No, thank you. 0.99

00:02:51.000 There's a lot of scared people out there, and I think the comedians aren't as scared.

00:02:55.000 There's a few that are scared.

00:02:57.000 I think a lot of them are scared.

00:02:58.000 I mean, when that stuff happened to Louis C.K., they all kind of went quiet.

00:03:02.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:03:03.000 And that was really stupid. 1.00

00:03:05.000 You know, I mean, and I was expecting more of them to stand up, and they didn't. 1.00

00:03:12.000 Well, there was a bunch of different narratives, right?

00:03:14.000 And if Louis wasn't talking, you know, all Louis did was, like, release a statement.

00:03:18.000 But if you weren't talking to him, you didn't get his version of it.

00:03:21.000 Once I talked to him personally and got his version, I'm like, well, this is a very different version than what you're hearing from the public. 0.97

00:03:28.000 And from the people that are making the worst judgments on it, what it was mostly was he's kind of a pervert, and he asked if he could jerk off in front of them, and he had already been flirting with these girls, and he knew them, and they had made it seem like he was a monster. 0.99

00:03:46.000 He was cornering people and jerking off in front of them. 0.99

00:03:49.000 I mean, but even that's hard to cancel somebody. 1.00

00:03:52.000 You can just walk the fuck away. 0.62

00:03:54.000 I don't understand this. 0.99

00:03:56.000 Yeah, well, it was a man in power.

00:03:59.000 And this was post-Matt Lauer and post-Harvey Weinstein, and there was all this...

00:04:04.000 Yeah, the context.

00:04:05.000 Yeah, the context is interesting.

00:04:09.000 It's good and bad, right?

00:04:11.000 It's good that people like Harvey Weinstein are held accountable, but it's bad that people get scared.

00:04:17.000 And then it's also bad that you have... 0.95

00:04:20.000 Crazy people who can just accuse someone of something and everyone says, well, hashtag believe all women. 0.98

00:04:24.000 Exactly. 0.98

00:04:25.000 And you're like, are you sure?

00:04:26.000 All of them?

00:04:27.000 Exactly.

00:04:27.000 Because, like, let's slow down.

00:04:30.000 Like, you're going to believe Casey Anthony?

00:04:32.000 You're going to be like, there's a lot.

00:04:33.000 Like, who are you believing?

00:04:35.000 Well, that's why we need the comedians to speak up.

00:04:37.000 Yeah.

00:04:38.000 Well, it's a unique time in this world.

00:04:41.000 You know, I mean, we're experiencing, like, in many ways, the deterioration of our appreciation for government.

00:04:50.000 Deterioration for our...

00:04:52.000 Just civil society is in danger right now.

00:04:56.000 It's crazy.

00:04:58.000 Yeah, you know, that's one of the things that really has forced me to seek residence in another country.

00:05:07.000 You were saying you're in Switzerland now, huh?

00:05:09.000 Yeah, between Switzerland and New York, it's just that we have to do a better job of treating people better.

00:05:16.000 I mean, caring for people.

00:05:19.000 People who are not our family, just other human beings. 0.97

00:05:23.000 Even if you're not taking care of them, you gotta at least care about people.

00:05:28.000 And it's okay to not care about people. 1.00

00:05:31.000 That's some fucked up shit. 0.99

00:05:33.000 And that's coming from the highest levels of government, and it's like I don't like that ethos, and so I don't want to be around it because I don't want it to infect or poison me. 1.00

00:05:44.000 Do you feel like it has affected or poisoned you?

00:05:47.000 Of course it does.

00:05:48.000 You know, it makes me angry for people who like support Trump, for example.

00:05:56.000 They're all not racist, of course, and this sort of thing, but I don't understand How people can support a guy who's so mean-spirited and just attacks other people.

00:06:12.000 I don't understand it.

00:06:13.000 And so when my good friends, I have good friends who support Trump.

00:06:18.000 It's hard for me to talk to them.

00:06:21.000 Because I don't want to be rude or angry with them.

00:06:24.000 But I just don't understand how you support people who are just mean to other people.

00:06:31.000 I don't understand that.

00:06:32.000 I just don't get it.

00:06:33.000 I understand.

00:06:34.000 Yeah, I think the people that support them, there's people that I know that are military people that support them.

00:06:40.000 Now, I'm ex-military too.

00:06:42.000 I was a cop in the military.

00:06:44.000 So I know the military as well.

00:06:47.000 Yeah, their take on it is just that he released the shackles that the military had to go and take down ISIS. And he released some of the restrictions that the military had under the previous administration as far as engaging with terrorists.

00:07:02.000 They've shut down ISIS in like less than a year from Trump being in office.

00:07:05.000 And when I talk to people that are active military, they said there was a night and day difference between the way the military was funded, the way...

00:07:12.000 I'm sorry, I don't know about that.

00:07:13.000 I just don't know that.

00:07:15.000 Yeah.

00:07:15.000 I don't know enough about that.

00:07:17.000 But I agree with you in terms of one of the best things about someone like...

00:07:21.000 Well, see, we have to see what happens with Biden because I can't imagine he's going to last.

00:07:29.000 We were talking about this.

00:07:30.000 I feel like it's sleight of hand. 0.98

00:07:37.000 He's the walking dead.

00:07:39.000 Yeah, I mean, come on.

00:07:41.000 Joe's been dead for some time.

00:07:43.000 Yeah.

00:07:44.000 But when Obama was in office, Obama's a statesman, right?

00:07:47.000 He's an eloquent speaker.

00:07:49.000 You hear him talk, and you're like, well, that guy's definitely smarter than me.

00:07:51.000 It seems like a person that should be president.

00:07:53.000 What Trump did...

00:07:55.000 Even though you might disagree with some of his policies, but he certainly seems smarter.

00:08:01.000 Presidential.

00:08:02.000 He's presidential and not attacking people.

00:08:04.000 Yeah.

00:08:05.000 I think that what Trump represented to a lot of people was like this deviation from this system that never supported them, that never served them. 0.96

00:08:13.000 They felt like politicians were all full of shit and finally this guy's gonna come in and you know even his ideas like clean up the swamp like this motto. 0.99

00:08:21.000 Like that, oh yeah, that's what we need. 1.00

00:08:23.000 So they got behind it.

00:08:23.000 That's what we need.

00:08:24.000 And then when they realized, whenever there's an us versus them situation, people oftentimes aren't thinking clearly.

00:08:30.000 They just pick a side.

00:08:31.000 I'm with you, Joe.

00:08:32.000 I feel you.

00:08:32.000 But when we think about Trump and the system not for them.

00:08:40.000 Let's just think about, like, fucking Black America. 0.99

00:08:44.000 When has the system been for Black America? 1.00

00:08:46.000 You know, so it's like, it's always been that way in terms of Black America, and that's fine. 1.00

00:08:52.000 And you just work, and you work, and you work, and you try and make the system work for you. 0.99

00:08:57.000 But you don't say that we're going to take our country down and burn this bitch down. 1.00

00:09:02.000 I mean, you don't do that. 0.99

00:09:04.000 Or you can't go hate other people because of that.

00:09:07.000 And so when people say that the system is now not working for them, I get it.

00:09:13.000 I feel the same way.

00:09:14.000 And we should work together to see if we can make this thing work for us.

00:09:18.000 You don't isolate yourself and then isolate other people or attack other people.

00:09:23.000 Because what happens is, like, I know those jobs went away.

00:09:27.000 In middle America, those factory jobs.

00:09:30.000 I know that.

00:09:30.000 In the automobile industry, in the paper mills, all those, they went away.

00:09:34.000 And people, they're suffering.

00:09:37.000 I get it.

00:09:38.000 But the reason for their suffering, they are misattributing.

00:09:42.000 And people like Trump exploits that sort of thing. 0.99

00:09:47.000 And manipulates these people and uses these people to do their bidding because Trump doesn't give a fuck about those people. 1.00

00:09:54.000 As you know, he doesn't give a fuck about them. 1.00

00:09:57.000 He despises those people. 0.99

00:09:59.000 It's like, I care more about those people than he does. 1.00

00:10:02.000 And that's the shit that just blows my mind. 1.00

00:10:05.000 Yeah, it's manipulative. 1.00

00:10:06.000 But that's what he had to do to get into office.

00:10:10.000 I know, and he did it well.

00:10:11.000 He had to be a populist billionaire.

00:10:13.000 He did it well.

00:10:14.000 I know, a populist billionaire. 1.00

00:10:16.000 That shit just blows my mind. 1.00

00:10:18.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:10:19.000 I mean, this recent thing where those folks went to the Capitol and they were standing up on his behalf, and then he throws them under the Yeah, I threw them all under the bus after it was over.

00:10:30.000 Yeah, it's crazy.

00:10:32.000 I watched a video of it.

00:10:33.000 I had not seen much video of it.

00:10:35.000 I'd only seen a couple of videos on Instagram. 0.99

00:10:38.000 I was like, what the fuck? 0.99

00:10:39.000 I didn't want to get depressed and watch it, but today I said, let's get depressed. 1.00

00:10:43.000 And I watched a bunch of it. 0.96

00:10:44.000 I had no idea how bad it was in terms of the sheer number of people storming the gates and screaming and It's a small handful of cops that were supposed to protect it, and that one cop that got beaten, there's like a video of them hitting the cop with flags and shit. 0.99

00:10:59.000 It's like, what the fuck? 0.99

00:11:01.000 How did that happen? 1.00

00:11:03.000 How did it deteriorate to that?

00:11:05.000 I know, man. 1.00

00:11:06.000 It's really sad to me that that kind of thing happened, and then you have these fucking cowards, Rudy Giuliani, Ted Cruz, Josh Howley, all of these cowards, they're allowed to stand on their pulpit and say these things like they're tough, 0.99

00:11:28.000 but they're nowhere around to support these folks in the first place, and they're sending them into the battle. 0.99

00:11:34.000 And now they will comfortably join the ranks of their members of Congress while these other people are going to go to jail and have these charges, which they should have, of course, but these leaders who manipulated them,

00:11:51.000 there's no consequences to them.

00:11:53.000 I mean, I think that's the real crime.

00:11:55.000 Well, we'll see if there's consequences, because I have a feeling there will be for Trump.

00:11:58.000 I think this is going to be the end.

00:12:00.000 I really do.

00:12:01.000 Because I think there's very little chance that he's going to run in 2024 after this, because a lot of people were hoping for that.

00:12:09.000 A lot of his supporters were hoping for that.

00:12:11.000 But after this, I don't even think... 1.00

00:12:13.000 Yeah, I think the useful idiot is done. 0.99

00:12:15.000 I mean, I think the people like Mitch McConnell and those people, they don't have no more use for him, so he's done. 0.99

00:12:20.000 I mean, he's done enough for them.

00:12:23.000 They're happy with what he's done.

00:12:24.000 He's delivered with the Supreme Court and so forth.

00:12:27.000 It's time is over.

00:12:28.000 It's interesting to see, you know, we've always known that there's a certain faction of this country that's fairly simple.

00:12:36.000 Not that sophisticated, not very smart, and they like thinking in like a real narrow box.

00:12:42.000 And this guy came along and was their guy. 1.00

00:12:45.000 You know, and then we realized like, oh, like the assholes of this country were unrepresented. 1.00

00:12:51.000 And now all of a sudden they got represented. 0.99

00:12:52.000 There was a lot of people.

00:12:53.000 A lot of those folks that stormed the castle, that stormed Capitol Hill. 0.99

00:12:57.000 If you see when they get arrested and you find out who they are, a guy living with his mom, believe in QAnon conspiracies, thinks the FBI is sending out pedophile codes, that kind of shit. 0.98

00:13:07.000 Those guys didn't have a king before. 0.98

00:13:09.000 You realize how many of them there are.

00:13:11.000 But what about the guy who was, I don't know, a retired lieutenant colonel from the Army or the Air Force?

00:13:19.000 I mean, so there are people there who also had education and they were plugged into society, right?

00:13:25.000 There were a number of those people too, right?

00:13:27.000 I'm sure there was a few, yeah.

00:13:28.000 Yeah, I mean, I think that most of us are simple people.

00:13:38.000 And that's okay.

00:13:39.000 I think you should be able to be simple and have a decent life and enjoy yourself.

00:13:46.000 I think there's no crime there.

00:13:48.000 I think that's fine.

00:13:49.000 The real problem is that we allow our leaders to lie.

00:13:55.000 And then you can manipulate.

00:13:57.000 Even the most sophisticated among us can be manipulated.

00:14:01.000 And I think that's the real crime.

00:14:03.000 So it's like, not that these people were simple.

00:14:06.000 It's okay to be simple.

00:14:08.000 Maybe simple is the wrong word. 0.99

00:14:09.000 Maybe assholes was the right word. 1.00

00:14:12.000 There's a lot of people that are assholes. 1.00

00:14:13.000 And there was never a guy who said it's okay to be an asshole. 1.00

00:14:17.000 And I'm an asshole too. 1.00

00:14:19.000 Do you think that the majority of these people were assholes? 1.00

00:14:23.000 I think they could be assholes if they were led the right way. 1.00

00:14:26.000 But can't most of us be assholes, I think? 1.00

00:14:29.000 At the worst moments of your life, yeah. 1.00

00:14:31.000 Yeah, I think so.

00:14:32.000 But, you know, I think that when you have...

00:14:36.000 I'm telling you, man, I'm putting this square on those people in Washington.

00:14:42.000 Trump is one of them, of course.

00:14:44.000 But I'm talking about the Ted Cruz's and all of those people as well.

00:14:48.000 I mean, those people, they should face the criminal justice system for what they did. 0.99

00:14:57.000 Because these folks who are out here, we all have the potential to be assholes. 0.89

00:15:02.000 And then if you think that what you're doing Is holding up the liberty that we promise in this country, that you are being a real patriot and you really believe that you've been manipulated to do that by these leaders, they should pay the price. 0.97

00:15:18.000 And that's the thing that I'm really disturbed by.

00:15:22.000 It's like, yeah, we should get Trump.

00:15:25.000 Yep, absolutely.

00:15:26.000 But we should go after those other people as well.

00:15:28.000 I don't know.

00:15:28.000 What did Ted Cruz do?

00:15:30.000 Oh, with the election...

00:15:32.000 Oh, were you saying that the election fraud?

00:15:35.000 Election fraud, when he knew what time it was.

00:15:38.000 Those guys, they know they were being dishonest.

00:15:43.000 I think it's a political ploy, right?

00:15:46.000 Politicians take stances based on where they think their constituents lean.

00:15:50.000 And, you know, Stop the Steal and all that was trending on all these social media sites.

00:15:55.000 And I feel like for a prominent politician that's a manipulative person that looks at these things and goes, that's an angle that I can use.

00:16:04.000 You're absolutely right, Joe.

00:16:06.000 That's exactly what politicians do. 0.99

00:16:09.000 And we should expect more of them. 1.00

00:16:11.000 And until we do, they're going to continue to do that bullshit when they know that is bullshit. 1.00

00:16:16.000 And so you're right. 1.00

00:16:18.000 That's what politicians do. 0.99

00:16:20.000 So what do you think they were trying to do?

00:16:22.000 Do you think just posturing to try to get those people on their side for the future?

00:16:27.000 That's right.

00:16:28.000 I think that Ted Cruz and those folks were setting themselves up for a future presidential run or what have you and hoping that they get Trump, the kingmaker, to endorse them.

00:16:39.000 Even though... 0.90

00:16:40.000 Trump called his wife ugly. 1.00

00:16:42.000 I would have beat Trump's ass. 1.00

00:16:44.000 I mean, I'm telling you. 1.00

00:16:45.000 I mean, it's like, what kind of man allows that to happen?

00:16:47.000 He called him Lion Ted.

00:16:48.000 Yeah, I mean, but what kind of man allows another guy to call his wife ugly and not do anything?

00:16:53.000 Didn't he also infer that he was a serial killer or something?

00:16:56.000 His dad...

00:16:57.000 Zodiac Killer, that's right.

00:16:59.000 Yeah, his dad helped kill Kennedy or something, he said.

00:17:02.000 Yeah.

00:17:03.000 But what kind of man does that?

00:17:05.000 I mean, allows that.

00:17:07.000 I mean, I don't understand that.

00:17:10.000 Well, what kind of man wants to be a senator?

00:17:11.000 You know, it's a weird business.

00:17:13.000 You get deeply entrenched in that business and there's compromises that you make and a lot of weirdness I understand but you know like what kind of person want to be president?

00:17:22.000 That's fine.

00:17:23.000 I don't want to do that But I'm glad there are people that that do it and the thing is I think we should require them to be more honorable than we do we certainly should and and so like when when people are posturing politically when they know that That there's no chance that this election can be overturned because there's no fraud.

00:17:48.000 I think they should pay a price.

00:17:49.000 I think that is just too manipulative.

00:17:52.000 And I think their position requires that they be more honest.

00:17:57.000 And until we do, until we require this of them, Then I think that they will continue.

00:18:06.000 I think there's a style of behavior that lends itself to success.

00:18:13.000 Like business success and financial success.

00:18:16.000 And it's like a speed style.

00:18:18.000 Like people that are into amphetamines.

00:18:20.000 And people that are into getting ahead and pushing.

00:18:23.000 And I think that there's a style of behavior that leads itself to be compassionate.

00:18:29.000 Thinking more about community.

00:18:31.000 And I think that is more like A marijuana style or a mushroom style.

00:18:35.000 You think so?

00:18:36.000 Yeah, I do.

00:18:37.000 Try some of that.

00:18:38.000 CBD pineapple jalapeno drink.

00:18:38.000 I will.

00:18:42.000 No, I think a lot of these people that are...

00:18:46.000 Look, I'm a big proponent of psychedelics use, and a lot of times people think that that's frivolous.

00:18:53.000 That's a silly thing.

00:18:54.000 It's an escape thing. 0.72

00:18:55.000 I don't really think it is.

00:18:57.000 I think it seems silly and frivolous for people that have never engaged in it.

00:19:01.000 But I think that...

00:19:03.000 One of the things that could be the savior of this civilization I really believe this is the legalization of psychedelic drugs because I think if we had more people taking psychedelic drugs responsibly and Especially under the direction of real professionals if we allowed there to be real professionals We would allow people to have these experiences that dissolve their ego and give them this feeling of community and compassion I think a lot

00:19:33.000 of those people that storm Capitol Hill, a lot of people like Ted Cruz, a lot of people that run for government and manipulate people, they have no experience in these things.

00:19:42.000 They don't know what that is.

00:19:44.000 They don't know what those feelings are.

00:19:47.000 They've never had that kind of experience.

00:19:51.000 So when you say psychedelics, what drugs are you classifying?

00:19:55.000 Because you know the classification can be misleading and also not consistent.

00:20:02.000 So what drugs are you thinking of?

00:20:04.000 I think mushrooms are a big one.

00:20:06.000 So psilocybin.

00:20:07.000 Psilocybin.

00:20:07.000 Even psilocybin, just microdosing, I think could save a lot of people's future and just alter the course of the way they behave.

00:20:14.000 Well, I... Check it out.

00:20:16.000 I agree with you about drugs being useful and helpful for people to be certainly empathetic and understand other people's plight.

00:20:27.000 But I wouldn't limit it to what we call psychedelics.

00:20:31.000 You know, like we think about something like MDMA. It's an amphetamine.

00:20:35.000 Oh, it's true, right.

00:20:37.000 Yeah, and we think about something like heroin.

00:20:39.000 How is that an amphetamine, though?

00:20:40.000 How does MDMA work?

00:20:43.000 See this chemical structure here?

00:20:45.000 Yeah.

00:20:45.000 This is methamphetamine.

00:20:47.000 Is it really?

00:20:48.000 Yeah, and so if you want to make...

00:20:50.000 Very few people like yourself are walking around with meth shirts on.

00:20:53.000 I always say that one of the things about meth is there's no meth advocates.

00:20:58.000 Well, I guess I am.

00:21:01.000 If you want to make MDMA, all you do is put another ring, a methylene-dioxy ring, and then that's MDMA. So MDMA is called methylene-dioxymethamphetamine.

00:21:14.000 That's what it's called.

00:21:14.000 That's the name.

00:21:16.000 And certainly people know about MDMA's reputation in terms of increasing empathy.

00:21:23.000 Yeah.

00:21:24.000 And understanding and all those things.

00:21:26.000 But it's not a psychedelic.

00:21:28.000 In the classic sense.

00:21:29.000 Yeah.

00:21:30.000 Same can happen with methamphetamine.

00:21:32.000 Right.

00:21:33.000 The same can happen with heroin.

00:21:34.000 Depends on dose and all those sorts of things.

00:21:38.000 And if you've been to places like Burning Man and those festivals, and so you see all of those people and they're caring, they're sharing, they're doing all of these kinds of things. 0.99

00:21:49.000 But some of those same people go out into the world after that experience and they misbehave and they act like assholes. 0.99

00:22:00.000 Some of them. 1.00

00:22:02.000 Some of them, that's right.

00:22:04.000 I think it has some effect on their thought process and their understanding of the range of experiences that human beings can have.

00:22:15.000 Absolutely.

00:22:16.000 I'm a proponent.

00:22:17.000 I'm like you.

00:22:17.000 No, I know you are.

00:22:18.000 But you wrote a book on it.

00:22:19.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:22:22.000 Drug use for grown-ups.

00:22:24.000 Chasing liberty in the land of fear.

00:22:26.000 Yeah, no, absolutely, man.

00:22:28.000 Unlike me, though, you're a doctor.

00:22:30.000 You actually get respect.

00:22:31.000 It makes sense.

00:22:32.000 You know what you're talking about.

00:22:33.000 We'll see if I get respect with this book, because in this book, I'm making the case that you're making.

00:22:39.000 I'm saying that as grown-ups, you should fight for your right, your liberty to use drugs.

00:22:46.000 Yes.

00:22:47.000 For this reason that you're talking about, helping people to be more magnanimous, empathetic, giving, understanding, and all of these things.

00:22:57.000 But I'm arguing that drugs like heroin should be included there, cocaine should be included there, along with the psychedelics.

00:23:06.000 And so I agree with you, but I also understand that it has a lot to do with context, like where the drugs are being used, with who you're using it with.

00:23:15.000 And it also has a lot to do with who's using the drugs.

00:23:18.000 So the book is called Drug Use for Grownups for a reason.

00:23:21.000 Yeah, you got to be a grown-up because if you end up being a grown-up It's a difficult thing as you know, you know I have kids and I have these responsibilities and I got I have to make sure that I'm a good model for them Treat people well trying to teach them to treat people well treat people well a lot of people are not grown-ups and so If you add a drug to the mix You're not going to all of a sudden have a grown-up.

00:23:50.000 And so if people are responsible and grown-ups and empathetic, oh, drugs can really enhance all of those things. 0.99

00:24:01.000 And so I just want to be clear that you give a drug to an asshole, no matter what drug you give, you're still going to have an asshole there. 1.00

00:24:10.000 You know what I'm saying? 1.00

00:24:12.000 I think some drugs can scare the shit out of them, maybe really make them reconsider why they're an asshole. 1.00

00:24:17.000 How do you like that pineapple jalapeno? 1.00

00:24:19.000 Oh, it's good, man.

00:24:19.000 It's pretty good, right?

00:24:20.000 Not bad.

00:24:20.000 Yeah, it's really good.

00:24:21.000 Not bad.

00:24:22.000 You know, you remind me of a joke that Neil Brennan had, you know, like comedians.

00:24:28.000 That's who I listen to.

00:24:29.000 I mean, I don't read.

00:24:30.000 I listen to comedians, and that's how I get my knowledge, you know.

00:24:34.000 But Neil had a joke that said, like, Right.

00:24:45.000 Right.

00:24:58.000 There is something to that, right?

00:25:00.000 When you're euphoric, you don't want to go out and you don't want to cause trouble.

00:25:05.000 You don't want to be aggressive or get into a fight with many of these drugs.

00:25:13.000 There is certainly something to that.

00:25:15.000 And so, yeah, I agree with you.

00:25:19.000 I think there's a trend right now with people that are very ambitious to take amphetamines.

00:25:24.000 It's a current trend that's being accentuated by Adderall. 0.98

00:25:28.000 I know quite a few people that get Adderall legally and they get it because of, air quote, fatigue or, oh, I have ADHD or ADHD or whatever the fuck it is. 0.97

00:25:40.000 You just like speed. 0.90

00:25:41.000 You like being revved up all the time.

00:25:43.000 I get it.

00:25:44.000 And if you're on a controlled version of this where you're not taking too much, but you're taking just enough, they're remarkably productive.

00:25:52.000 And also, they can justify taking it because they've got a doctor who told them that it's okay.

00:26:00.000 They wrote it down on a piece of paper.

00:26:01.000 Look, this guy went to school.

00:26:02.000 I got a little piece of paper.

00:26:03.000 A little piece of paper says, I'm good to go.

00:26:06.000 What's wrong with that?

00:26:07.000 I'm sorry.

00:26:08.000 Nothing wrong with that, but it's weird to me that those same people oftentimes would frown upon the use of anything that creates deep introspective thought,

00:26:23.000 like mushrooms or LSD or...

00:26:26.000 Or even MDMA. I feel you.

00:26:29.000 But similarly, people who do alcohol do the same sort of thing, right?

00:26:33.000 It's a drug.

00:26:34.000 And they mock other drugs.

00:26:36.000 Right.

00:26:36.000 So it's hypocrisy.

00:26:38.000 But you also get people who do psychedelics, who, for example, don't think they will...

00:26:46.000 Presmirch something like PCP, which is psychedelic, but yet are proponents of ketamine.

00:26:55.000 And they are essentially the same drug.

00:26:58.000 PCP is the same as ketamine.

00:27:00.000 Really?

00:27:01.000 Yeah.

00:27:01.000 Ketamine is made by modifying the PCP structure, basically.

00:27:07.000 Same kind of drug, same effects for the most part.

00:27:10.000 Really?

00:27:11.000 Yeah.

00:27:12.000 PCP has the same effects as ketamine?

00:27:14.000 Yeah.

00:27:14.000 Yep.

00:27:15.000 I have no experience in either one of them, but I know people that have taken ketamine and having these crazy psychedelic trips.

00:27:22.000 I know people that take ketamine for depression.

00:27:26.000 There's a mist that a friend of mine gets, and she pumps it into her nose.

00:27:30.000 It's recently approved a couple years ago for depression.

00:27:32.000 So that's PCP. That's PCP. You hear that, Whitney?

00:27:35.000 You're on PCP. And you know what we say about PCP and the cops' lore about superhuman strength and all that's bullshit. 0.99

00:27:46.000 My friend was in a fight. 0.98

00:27:48.000 He got his finger bitten off when he was on PCP. He has his toe welded to where his finger is now.

00:27:54.000 His right hand, his index finger was bitten off, and so now that's his second toe on his foot. 0.89

00:28:02.000 It's sewed in place and curved so that he could punch people. 0.98

00:28:06.000 Joe, you got some wild ass friends, bro. 0.92

00:28:10.000 He was my boxing coach.

00:28:12.000 Shout out to Joe.

00:28:13.000 You know, man, you do the MMA thing and that sort of thing, and that's sanctioned, for example.

00:28:21.000 So people can go out and knock people's head off, but drug use is not sanctioned.

00:28:26.000 Yeah, well, it's odd, right?

00:28:28.000 Because, obviously, mixed martial arts is very dangerous. 0.99

00:28:31.000 It's a dangerous endeavor, as is BMX riding, as is fucking gymnastics, man. 0.99

00:28:36.000 You want to do flips off a balance beam? 1.00

00:28:38.000 Weird shit can go wrong. 0.99

00:28:39.000 I've seen videos. 0.99

00:28:41.000 But, you know, I think it's great that people have the skills and they train and they do that sort of thing, and it should be allowed.

00:28:46.000 So I'm not saying that that should be restricted.

00:28:49.000 I think that's a great thing.

00:28:51.000 People are allowed to do that.

00:28:52.000 But the thing that I'm saying is that Wait a second.

00:28:55.000 Right.

00:28:56.000 We want to look at drugs in the same context.

00:28:59.000 You know, why are drugs banned?

00:29:01.000 Yeah, it's a good point.

00:29:02.000 Because why is it legal to ride bulls, but it's not legal to do coke?

00:29:06.000 Yeah.

00:29:07.000 Or legal to hit somebody, knock somebody's block off on a football field.

00:29:11.000 Right.

00:29:12.000 Yeah.

00:29:12.000 Right.

00:29:13.000 Very dangerous for both parties.

00:29:15.000 Yep.

00:29:15.000 It's weird when we decide what you can and can't do.

00:29:18.000 Yeah, but it's rational.

00:29:21.000 Well...

00:29:22.000 There is a rationale to it.

00:29:24.000 Yes.

00:29:24.000 So when we think about drugs, let's just think about cocaine.

00:29:29.000 You and I, we always have good cocaine conversations.

00:29:33.000 We should probably do some cocaine and have a conversation.

00:29:36.000 Some good cocaine, of course, not anything that's like...

00:29:38.000 I've never done cocaine.

00:29:39.000 Are you serious?

00:29:40.000 Yeah, never done it.

00:29:42.000 Wait, no, I thought you got your start at the comedy store.

00:29:44.000 I did.

00:29:45.000 I thought that was Cocaine Central.

00:29:47.000 There's a lot of cocaine at the comedy store.

00:29:49.000 I avoided it.

00:29:50.000 When I was in high school, my good friend had a cousin who was selling coke.

00:29:55.000 And him and his girlfriend, all they did was do coke and hide. 0.99

00:29:58.000 They were in this fucking attic. 1.00

00:30:00.000 They were selling it and doing it. 1.00

00:30:01.000 And they were just like, I'm not joking, man.

00:30:03.000 They had an attic apartment.

00:30:04.000 They'd hide in the attic.

00:30:05.000 And I saw him like wither away.

00:30:07.000 Stopped eating. 0.57

00:30:08.000 Shrunk. 1.00

00:30:08.000 He was just an addict. 1.00

00:30:10.000 He was just constantly doing coke.

00:30:11.000 And they were all weird.

00:30:12.000 They were all nice and nervous and sketchy.

00:30:14.000 This is high school.

00:30:14.000 Yeah, I was in high school.

00:30:16.000 He was a year or two, maybe two years older than me.

00:30:19.000 So I believe this was...

00:30:20.000 I was probably 17. He was 19 at the time.

00:30:23.000 And he was just off his rocker on coke. 1.00

00:30:25.000 And I remember thinking, like, whatever that drug is, fuck that. 0.99

00:30:28.000 Because it seemed like the people that did it... 1.00

00:30:33.000 They got hooked so easy.

00:30:35.000 They loved it so much.

00:30:37.000 And it was hard to get.

00:30:39.000 And, you know, girls would do things to get it from guys. 1.00

00:30:43.000 And it was just...

00:30:44.000 There was a lot involved.

00:30:46.000 Okay.

00:30:47.000 That seemed...

00:30:47.000 I was afraid of drugs when I was young.

00:30:51.000 Because I had...

00:30:54.000 I was very insecure, and I had this burning desire to be successful.

00:30:58.000 Yeah, right on.

00:30:59.000 And I felt like drugs were for losers and people that wanted to escape reality.

00:31:05.000 You and I, we share this belief, by the way, this view.

00:31:08.000 So I agree.

00:31:09.000 That's what I did.

00:31:10.000 What changed you?

00:31:12.000 What changed me was years of evidence of watching people giving drugs to people in a lab and watching them get high and seeing predominantly positive effects.

00:31:26.000 Now this is now, I'm well into my 30s, 40s, and now 54, but over that long period of time, That's where I changed, though.

00:31:37.000 I'm not like somebody who came to this from high school, always liked drugs and thought of drugs.

00:31:42.000 I was an athlete.

00:31:43.000 I thought I was going to play professional basketball.

00:31:45.000 So I'm like you.

00:31:46.000 I was just like you.

00:31:47.000 Like, nah, I don't want to be like those cats.

00:31:49.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:31:51.000 But then me actually giving drugs to people and studying their responses and then really checking out the history of why drugs are banned...

00:32:00.000 And just seeing how I was misled and manipulated and lied to.

00:32:06.000 And now that I use all these drugs and think how I'm a better person for it.

00:32:14.000 My life has been enhanced because of it.

00:32:17.000 My connection to my loved ones are a lot better.

00:32:22.000 But again, I'm a responsible grown-up, right?

00:32:26.000 I'm 54 years old and I know what I'm doing. 0.98

00:32:29.000 So when we think about something like cocaine, cocaine, not the bullshit that people sell on the street that's been stepped on. 0.64

00:32:36.000 So like when you go to places like Columbia and you go to the source and you get really good cocaine, Like, Colombia cocaine is about $7 a gram, whereas in New York it could be anywhere from $60 to $100 a gram. 0.88

00:32:51.000 And not as good as a product in Colombia.

00:32:54.000 So you go to the source countries and you get good stuff.

00:32:59.000 It could be a really good evening with you and your significant other, you know?

00:33:04.000 And all of these sort of stories of people being paranoid about the cops with cocaine, there are reasons to be paranoid if you're doing something wrong.

00:33:17.000 So I get that.

00:33:18.000 I mean, so...

00:33:19.000 Also worried about being arrested.

00:33:21.000 That's what I'm talking about.

00:33:22.000 That's exactly what I mean.

00:33:25.000 So there's a reason.

00:33:26.000 That's a rational sort of thing.

00:33:28.000 But what's irrational is that we're arresting people for what they put in their bodies.

00:33:33.000 Yes.

00:33:34.000 Agreed.

00:33:34.000 Yeah, agreed wholeheartedly.

00:33:36.000 And I always point out that you can go to CVS and buy enough liquor to kill yourself.

00:33:40.000 Absolutely.

00:33:40.000 24-7, all day long.

00:33:42.000 Absolutely.

00:33:43.000 It's so easy to do.

00:33:44.000 Absolutely.

00:33:44.000 Yeah.

00:33:45.000 But when we think about cocaine and why it's illegal, cocaine came to the United States for the popular masses in the late 1800s.

00:33:57.000 And Coca-Cola, this guy John Pendleton, I think his name was, he put it in Coca-Cola, well, this product, a Coca-Wine, and he was out of Atlanta.

00:34:08.000 And he put it in cocoa wine in 1894. The next year, Atlanta banned alcohol.

00:34:18.000 So before Prohibition, alcohol was banned in Atlanta.

00:34:23.000 Just Atlanta.

00:34:24.000 Just Atlanta.

00:34:25.000 I mean, cities.

00:34:26.000 Interesting.

00:34:27.000 Various cities banned this.

00:34:29.000 Prohibition happened in 1920 nationwide.

00:34:34.000 So since they banned alcohol in Atlanta, he had to come up with a new formulation.

00:34:41.000 And so what he did was tuck the alcohol out, added carbonated water and sugar.

00:34:46.000 Then you have Coca-Cola.

00:34:48.000 This is how Coca-Cola was made.

00:34:53.000 And he put it in these soda fountains, so he sold it at pharmacies, at these soda fountains.

00:34:58.000 And they were for whites only.

00:35:01.000 So cocaine was typically available only to white people at that time.

00:35:07.000 But then in, I guess, maybe 1899, early 1900s, Coca-Cola began bottling the products.

00:35:16.000 Now it's available to black people. 0.80

00:35:19.000 And now you start to get the connection between violence and cocaine use among black people. 0.98

00:35:27.000 And this sort of narrative grew and grew to the point where we banned cocaine effectively in 1914, largely because of its association with black people using the drug. 0.96

00:35:43.000 A similar thing happened with opium in the Chinese.

00:35:46.000 That's the real reason that those drugs are banned.

00:35:51.000 Not because of pharmacology.

00:35:53.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:35:54.000 Now that's not to say that people can't get in trouble with these drugs.

00:35:57.000 People do.

00:35:58.000 Just like they can get in trouble with alcohol.

00:36:00.000 That's right.

00:36:01.000 But the only stories that we tell about cocaine is the one where people get in trouble.

00:36:10.000 But I gotta tell you, Recently I watched Pete Davidson's movie.

00:36:16.000 What was that?

00:36:16.000 The King of Staten Island, I think it is?

00:36:19.000 It was the first time in a popular movie where a hero...

00:36:28.000 Pete used cocaine and he was still a hero.

00:36:31.000 So you might remember the scene where Steve Buscemi and I think Bill Burr, they were talking about...

00:36:37.000 I didn't see the movie.

00:36:38.000 Oh, it was a great scene.

00:36:40.000 I heard it was great.

00:36:40.000 A great scene where they were talking about Pete's dad and Pete's dad had used cocaine previously and Pete didn't know this.

00:36:53.000 But it was just a matter of fact.

00:36:55.000 The guy used cocaine.

00:36:56.000 He liked his cocaine.

00:36:58.000 But he was still a good guy.

00:37:00.000 He was a fireman.

00:37:01.000 He was a hero.

00:37:02.000 He was all of these things.

00:37:03.000 And they didn't besmirch him for using cocaine.

00:37:06.000 It's one of the few times that you see in popular culture that somebody uses something like cocaine.

00:37:12.000 And they're not besmirched.

00:37:14.000 They don't go down this path of becoming an addict and losing all of their possessions because of the drug.

00:37:21.000 And so I thought, like, they're doing something here that's different.

00:37:26.000 And that was a great scene.

00:37:28.000 Yeah, most of the stereotypes about cocaine in Hollywood are people using people, seedy people, people that...

00:37:37.000 Have no compassion for each other.

00:37:39.000 Ruthlessly ambitious people.

00:37:41.000 Doing coke and just all full of themselves and high on themselves. 1.00

00:37:45.000 I'm going to take over this fucking town. 1.00

00:37:48.000 That's what you hear and see. 1.00

00:37:51.000 Yeah, I hope that changes, man.

00:37:54.000 I know.

00:37:55.000 Yeah.

00:37:55.000 Well, I mean, I would try it with you.

00:37:58.000 I would try it. 1.00

00:37:59.000 Especially listening to you and knowing you probably get the real shit. 1.00

00:38:02.000 I avoid things that make me confident. 0.99

00:38:05.000 I'm not interested in that.

00:38:06.000 I'm confident enough.

00:38:07.000 I'm plenty confident.

00:38:08.000 I like things that scare me.

00:38:09.000 That's why I like marijuana so much.

00:38:11.000 I do.

00:38:12.000 People think I'm kidding.

00:38:13.000 I'm not.

00:38:14.000 I like the paranoia.

00:38:17.000 I like freaking out because I always come out of it to the other end with some sort of a lesson.

00:38:21.000 Because I think sometimes we can shield ourselves from things that we're really worried about.

00:38:28.000 Or shield ourselves from concerns that we have.

00:38:31.000 Or even from ruthlessly introspective thoughts that come with high doses of marijuana.

00:38:39.000 And that's the thing that freaks a lot of people out.

00:38:41.000 I find them very beneficial.

00:38:43.000 Some of the best moments I've had personally.

00:38:46.000 Or after some of the wildest trips where I was like, boy, this is rough.

00:38:51.000 But at the end, when it's over, I come out feeling so much better.

00:38:54.000 I feel you.

00:38:55.000 I mean, that's great.

00:38:56.000 I mean, because, you know, that's useful.

00:39:00.000 You feel like you're a better person.

00:39:01.000 That's cool.

00:39:02.000 But sometimes you just want to be euphoric and just enjoy your significant other.

00:39:08.000 Sure.

00:39:08.000 I mean, you know what I'm saying?

00:39:09.000 And so cocaine or some other drug might be useful for that.

00:39:15.000 And so it's not like you have to have only that experience that frightens you and you become a better person at the end of it.

00:39:23.000 I'm all for that.

00:39:24.000 That's fine.

00:39:25.000 You got that.

00:39:27.000 But I would just say broaden your repertoire.

00:39:31.000 That's it.

00:39:32.000 The problem is, if it was legal, it'd be great.

00:39:35.000 Like, you could get pure cocaine, and you knew what you were getting. 0.99

00:39:39.000 But if you're getting cocaine in Austin, Texas, you're probably getting it from some sketchy dude who is also selling a bunch of other shit. 0.98

00:39:48.000 I mean, I'm imagining. 0.97

00:39:50.000 I've never tried to buy it.

00:39:51.000 Yeah, but you know, two things here.

00:39:56.000 We got the technology to put on the streets where people can just submit small samples of their drug, 10 milligrams, which is nothing.

00:40:09.000 And then they get a readout of the chemical composition of their drug.

00:40:14.000 We have that technology if the public would put pressure on their officials to make sure that it's available to people where they can submit their drugs, small samples of their drugs, free and anonymously.

00:40:26.000 And then they get this readout.

00:40:28.000 The problem is it's so taboo.

00:40:30.000 Like, if you even admit that you do cocaine, people are like, look at this guy. 1.00

00:40:33.000 Ready to ruin his fucking life. 1.00

00:40:35.000 Barely hanging on over there, Carl. 1.00

00:40:36.000 Look at you.

00:40:37.000 Doing cocaine.

00:40:38.000 This is why, in the book, I admit my heroin use, my cocaine use, all of my drug use, so...

00:40:44.000 I'm trying to change that image because I have met people all around the world, some politicians and so forth, and got high with these people.

00:40:53.000 Of course, I won't say who they are, but the vast majority of people who use these drugs are people who are responsible for Take care of their families.

00:41:05.000 They care about their communities.

00:41:06.000 They do all this sort of stuff.

00:41:08.000 But Hollywood and the media and the mythology is so powerful in showing only this one image.

00:41:17.000 And I'm trying to really disrupt that because it's so harmful to so many people.

00:41:23.000 It is.

00:41:24.000 And, you know, I've had these conversations.

00:41:25.000 I've never done heroin.

00:41:26.000 But I did.

00:41:27.000 One time when I got my knee reconstructed, they gave me this morphine drip.

00:41:33.000 And you had a button.

00:41:34.000 You could press that button.

00:41:35.000 Oh, my God.

00:41:36.000 I kept hammering that button.

00:41:38.000 And I was in heaven. 0.99

00:41:39.000 My knee was fucked up. 0.99

00:41:41.000 And it was on this motion machine that's like constantly extending and contracting my knee. 0.99

00:41:45.000 Because it was post-surgery and I had my ACL reconstructed and they want you to move it a little bit.

00:41:50.000 So I'm sitting there on this bed with this machine that's going...

00:41:53.000 And I'm just going bang, bang, bang, bang.

00:41:58.000 Woo! 0.99

00:41:59.000 So you've done heroin.

00:42:01.000 Yeah, yes.

00:42:01.000 It was amazing.

00:42:02.000 Because, you know, like this chemical structure I showed you, like morphine, with heroin, all you do with morphine is just add to acid groups.

00:42:13.000 The acid groups don't have any pharmacological effect, really.

00:42:16.000 And then that's heroin.

00:42:18.000 So morphine is heroin.

00:42:20.000 Morphine is heroin.

00:42:21.000 The bear aspirin company gave us heroin first.

00:42:26.000 Really?

00:42:27.000 So they marketed as a cough suppressant.

00:42:30.000 That's why they had to add these sort of these acetyl groups.

00:42:34.000 Now they have this new product, but really it's not a new product.

00:42:38.000 It's morphine.

00:42:39.000 Wow.

00:42:40.000 So what about codeine?

00:42:43.000 Codeine, it's also an opioid.

00:42:45.000 So the opioid poppy contains three drugs mainly.

00:42:52.000 Opium, codeine, and morphine.

00:42:54.000 They're all in that poppy, and they're all essentially the same drug.

00:42:59.000 But codeine is a lot less potent than morphine, meaning that you need to have more of it to have the effect.

00:43:05.000 Is codeine what was in NyQuil, the old NyQuil?

00:43:09.000 No, I don't recall codeine being in NyQuil.

00:43:13.000 There's some very potent something or another that's in old NyQuil that...

00:43:18.000 Not in our lifetime, at least.

00:43:20.000 No?

00:43:20.000 No.

00:43:21.000 What do you think it is that was in there?

00:43:23.000 Probably something like promethazine.

00:43:25.000 Do you know?

00:43:26.000 That's an antihistamine.

00:43:28.000 It's one of the older ones.

00:43:29.000 You know, the purple drink, they call it.

00:43:32.000 Yeah.

00:43:33.000 And so that's currently in the codeine cough syrup.

00:43:40.000 It's codeine, promethazine, and I think acetaminophen, which is Tylenol.

00:43:47.000 And so it probably was promethazine because it'll put you to sleep.

00:43:53.000 It made me feel so relaxed.

00:43:54.000 I remember I had a cold.

00:43:57.000 This had to be the 90s.

00:43:59.000 Because I usually don't take anything.

00:44:01.000 I don't take aspirin.

00:44:03.000 I don't take Tylenol.

00:44:04.000 I rarely take nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories.

00:44:07.000 Why?

00:44:09.000 Non-steroidal anti-inflammatories are bad for your gut.

00:44:12.000 So I don't take those.

00:44:14.000 I generally look at pain like it's an opportunity to just relax and just accept the sensation of pain and not want to just dull everything.

00:44:25.000 Obviously it was different when I had surgery.

00:44:28.000 That was also 92, something like that, 93. But I was sick, and so I took some NyQuil.

00:44:38.000 And I remember just like my bed was just like giving me a hug.

00:44:42.000 Like I remember like, God, this stuff feels so good.

00:44:45.000 I think you just feel so good to be on the NyQuil.

00:44:47.000 I think you have an antihistamine.

00:44:48.000 That's all it is?

00:44:49.000 Yeah.

00:44:50.000 But antihistamines, they're no jokes.

00:44:53.000 I mean, you know, like when we think of the opioid crisis?

00:44:56.000 Mm-hmm.

00:44:57.000 I think a lot of people are dying because of antihistamines, too.

00:45:01.000 That's one of the main things that's going on.

00:45:04.000 Really?

00:45:05.000 Antihistamines, particularly the older ones, they knock you out.

00:45:11.000 So you know the antipsychotic medications, things like Thorazine or Halodon.

00:45:16.000 I don't know if you heard of those.

00:45:18.000 But antihistamines, antipsychotic medications, were made originally from a modified antihistamine structure.

00:45:27.000 Really?

00:45:28.000 Yeah, so antihistamines are no joke.

00:45:31.000 See, I thought of antihistamines as something that just stops you from sneezing and makes your nose stop running.

00:45:36.000 Yeah, so too will antipsychotic medication.

00:45:39.000 And it'll stop you from vomiting as well.

00:45:42.000 It does that too.

00:45:43.000 See, the term antipsychotic is immediately, oh my god, you're taking antipsychotic medication.

00:45:50.000 You must be psychotic.

00:45:51.000 There's a problem, right? 0.99

00:45:53.000 There's an association problem.

00:45:55.000 Yeah, I know.

00:45:56.000 It's kind of a misnomer to call these things antipsychotics, antidepressants, because they're not really that sort of thing.

00:46:04.000 That's just what the pharmaceutical companies have labeled them.

00:46:08.000 Yeah, and that has allowed them to really get over it.

00:46:12.000 Yeah.

00:46:14.000 Portland is in the middle of an interesting experiment, right?

00:46:19.000 Portland has essentially decriminalized everything.

00:46:23.000 Basically, they've decided to treat people like grown-ups and say, we're not going to arrest you for anything.

00:46:27.000 And I'm very curious to see where that goes, because we know what happened in Portugal.

00:46:31.000 Portugal did that, and they had a drastic decrease in crimes, drastic decrease in addictions, and it really opened up a lot of people's eyes.

00:46:38.000 They were like, oh, Jesus Christ, maybe we're doing this the wrong way.

00:46:42.000 And demonizing these substances, and also infantilizing people.

00:46:47.000 That's the big one, is another grown adult telling you that you can't do something, that you can't handle it, you shouldn't be able to, but also making this distinction just with drugs, but not with Other things that are legal,

00:47:02.000 like bull riding or BMX riding or MMA fighting or a lot of other dangerous things that people enjoy doing, including drinking.

00:47:09.000 The problem is our perception.

00:47:13.000 We have this ingrained perception of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, and you will see people at a bar with a cigarette in one hand and a drink in the other say, I don't do drugs.

00:47:23.000 I mean, we have this really Looney Tunes version of what drugs are and what a person should and should not be doing with their life.

00:47:30.000 And if you see someone who's out there, hey, I'm going to go do coke.

00:47:33.000 You want to do coke?

00:47:34.000 Like, Mike is losing his mind.

00:47:37.000 I experienced that with pot.

00:47:40.000 The people will go, you smoke pot? 1.00

00:47:42.000 I thought you got your shit together and you're into being successful. 0.99

00:47:46.000 I'm like, yeah, I do. 0.96

00:47:48.000 They're not related. 0.99

00:47:51.000 Well, Joe, that's why I'm glad you got me here, man, so we can try to change this shit. 1.00

00:47:56.000 Let's try to change this shit. 0.99

00:47:57.000 When we think about Portugal, you said Portugal, they decriminalized about 20 years ago, right? 0.99

00:48:04.000 Everything.

00:48:05.000 But we don't talk about Spain.

00:48:08.000 Spain never banned drugs, right?

00:48:11.000 And so Spain has always had a decriminalization policy.

00:48:15.000 And there are other countries like Colombia has decriminalization.

00:48:19.000 A number of countries that people just don't know.

00:48:22.000 Portugal was just really good at marketing.

00:48:25.000 And so the world knows about Portugal.

00:48:28.000 But really...

00:48:30.000 It's time to move on.

00:48:32.000 Portugal should legally regulate everything.

00:48:36.000 It should be legal in Portugal and around the world it should be legal.

00:48:40.000 Because even with decriminalization, the thing that I worry about with drugs more than anything...

00:48:46.000 Is the contaminants that people can put in the drugs, right?

00:48:50.000 They're far more dangerous, or they can potentially be more dangerous than the drugs themselves.

00:48:57.000 And decriminalization does nothing for that.

00:49:01.000 But if you regulate it, like we have done with alcohol, what we're doing with cannabis now in 15 states or so, you now at least have some quality control.

00:49:12.000 And that's where the problems come.

00:49:15.000 When you have tainted substances.

00:49:18.000 If we think about prohibition, the period between 1920 and 1933 in this country, we had a number of people dying and being maimed from tainted alcohol.

00:49:30.000 We legalized alcohol in 1933. At the end of 1933, those problems went away.

00:49:37.000 The quality control issues, they all went away.

00:49:40.000 And so that's where I'm hoping society goes.

00:49:44.000 Legally regulate these other things so we have this quality control.

00:49:49.000 Right, so you can buy actual substances and not these stepped-on versions of them, like whether it's heroin or whether it's cocaine.

00:49:56.000 The problem is perception, right?

00:49:58.000 It's that so many people do have these deeply ingrained societal perceptions of what these drugs are and what it means to do those drugs.

00:50:07.000 I know, man, but...

00:50:08.000 We need more dudes like you wearing meth shirts. 1.00

00:50:11.000 Yeah, well...

00:50:14.000 When I wear them, people don't know what it is.

00:50:17.000 Well, people don't know that this is a dimethyltryptamine molecule either.

00:50:20.000 Oh, yeah.

00:50:21.000 That's what that is.

00:50:22.000 I didn't even notice it, actually.

00:50:25.000 Yeah.

00:50:27.000 You know, I have to wear these shirts. 0.99

00:50:29.000 So, like, when I go to the airports, like, when I'm in places outside of the United States, people fuck with you because you're a dread and you're traveling and so forth. 0.97

00:50:37.000 You know, they want you to go to customs and so forth. 0.95

00:50:40.000 So I wear these shirts.

00:50:41.000 And I tell people, you know, like I'm a doctor, and they say, oh, is that a chemical structure?

00:50:45.000 And then I lie.

00:50:46.000 And so you say, yeah, this is in your brain or your body.

00:50:49.000 And then I start explaining it in great detail. 0.99

00:50:52.000 And then they just be like, all right, just get the fuck out of here. 0.98

00:50:55.000 So that's why I wear these shirts. 0.98

00:50:58.000 That's interesting. 0.99

00:50:59.000 You wear these shirts to stop people from fucking with you and it's actually meth. 0.99

00:51:03.000 Or something else. 0.98

00:51:04.000 It could be MDMA or something else.

00:51:09.000 Perception.

00:51:11.000 We have changed perception in our society before.

00:51:15.000 We certainly have with cannabis.

00:51:16.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:51:17.000 And so I think we can do it with heroin.

00:51:20.000 But we need people to know the facts and the information.

00:51:24.000 And that's why I wrote the new book.

00:51:28.000 I know many people that have had problems with opiates, particularly pills.

00:51:34.000 Why is it that that seems to be so addictive?

00:51:38.000 Why are these pills so addictive?

00:51:42.000 You've got to give me a little more than that, Joe, because I know far more people who haven't had problems with these pills, because you know they're a lot like you.

00:51:51.000 You had the pump.

00:51:52.000 That's beyond the pill.

00:51:54.000 You had the morphine.

00:51:56.000 They don't gave me that for a day though.

00:51:57.000 Exactly.

00:51:58.000 But the thing about it, you weren't going out there tricking to get some more of the pump, right?

00:52:03.000 I didn't have enough time to get addicted to it.

00:52:05.000 But they did give me pills that I hated.

00:52:09.000 I do not remember what it was.

00:52:10.000 I believe it was Vicodins or Percocets.

00:52:12.000 I don't remember which one, but I remember taking it. 0.99

00:52:15.000 And whatever it was, for me, the reaction was I felt so stupid. 0.99

00:52:19.000 They made me feel so dumb. 1.00

00:52:21.000 My mind was so dull that I just got rid of them. 0.99

00:52:23.000 And I sold it to some dude who was at the pool hall.

00:52:27.000 He goes, you got those?

00:52:28.000 I'll buy those off you.

00:52:29.000 And I gave them to him.

00:52:31.000 I'm like, take them. 0.99

00:52:31.000 Get these fucking things away from me. 0.99

00:52:33.000 Yeah, but you know, there are people who have problems. 1.00

00:52:36.000 Yes.

00:52:37.000 Well, I have a good buddy of mine who got his nose broken.

00:52:39.000 Got his nose operated on after his nose was broken.

00:52:41.000 The doctor gave him pills.

00:52:42.000 Four months later, he's still taking the pills. 1.00

00:52:44.000 And finally, his friend said, Hey, man, you got to stop taking those fucking pills. 0.99

00:52:48.000 And they took him away from him. 1.00

00:52:49.000 And then he went through withdrawal.

00:52:51.000 And he was okay after that.

00:52:53.000 But he found himself in the clutch.

00:52:56.000 So if he went through withdrawal, right?

00:53:00.000 Mm-hmm.

00:53:01.000 Somebody was being irresponsible with his sort of prescribing, the doses that they prescribed.

00:53:07.000 You know, because in the new book, I describe just a little bit.

00:53:12.000 I describe putting myself through withdrawal intentionally, heroin withdrawal and opioid withdrawal.

00:53:17.000 Just so I could show people that this is not life-threatening.

00:53:21.000 And it was not pleasant, but it wasn't life-threatening.

00:53:25.000 What was it like?

00:53:27.000 It was like...

00:53:29.000 You've talked about it before.

00:53:30.000 You said it was like the flu.

00:53:31.000 That's right.

00:53:32.000 That's what I said.

00:53:33.000 But it was...

00:53:34.000 The thing that I wasn't expecting was I had this abdominal pain that I had never experienced before.

00:53:42.000 Like just the touch of my skin, it just radiated through my body.

00:53:47.000 It lasted for about 12 hours really.

00:53:52.000 But my dependence was not that deep.

00:53:57.000 It was only like several weeks.

00:53:59.000 I did this for like several weeks.

00:54:00.000 It wasn't And I was over it within 24 hours.

00:54:05.000 And it was just to make a point, really.

00:54:08.000 So this friend of yours, if he was going through withdrawal, the people who were prescribing his medications weren't watching him, right?

00:54:17.000 And the doses that they were giving him were probably excessive.

00:54:21.000 I don't know.

00:54:22.000 But they weren't being responsible.

00:54:24.000 And that shouldn't have happened, right?

00:54:27.000 And if that's the problem that he had, he was going through withdrawal, no problem.

00:54:32.000 Just taper him off, and so he'll be fine.

00:54:35.000 He'll get back to his life without having these disruptions to have to go out and try and get something else so he's not experiencing withdrawal.

00:54:44.000 It's not a big deal to deal with.

00:54:46.000 Can I ask you this?

00:54:47.000 How do you taper off to avoid withdrawals?

00:54:51.000 What does one do?

00:54:52.000 Well, you just slowly decrease the dose over time.

00:54:54.000 And you can avoid withdrawals entirely?

00:54:57.000 Yeah.

00:54:57.000 So if you're taking antidepressants and then you're going to come off of them, your physician will taper you off because antidepressant medications, you will experience withdrawal if you abruptly discontinue them.

00:55:13.000 And so people know this.

00:55:15.000 Withdrawal is not a big deal to deal with.

00:55:19.000 Now, if he was having other problems, like he just wanted to seek opioids, then maybe he liked the effects.

00:55:29.000 And if he was still meeting all of his obligations and they weren't disruptive, what's wrong with that?

00:55:36.000 I think there's a lot of people out there that are taking it most of the time.

00:55:41.000 I mean, that's the wrong way to describe it. 0.98

00:55:46.000 I think there's a lot of people that are taking opiates on a regular basis and are just doing normal shit in life. 0.97

00:55:54.000 And many people don't even know. 0.95

00:55:56.000 I think that's an honest statement?

00:55:59.000 Yeah.

00:55:59.000 I mean, I've been one of those people at periods in my life when I can get some good opioids.

00:56:06.000 Particularly like some good Afghanistan heroin.

00:56:08.000 And how do you take it?

00:56:12.000 Snort it.

00:56:14.000 Is that the way to go?

00:56:15.000 For me, because I'm vain.

00:56:17.000 I don't want to have track marks or anything.

00:56:21.000 And the effects of taking a drug intranasally, it hits you rapidly enough and I'm good.

00:56:27.000 I don't need to shoot anything.

00:56:29.000 The Afghan heroine connection is so bizarre.

00:56:32.000 You know, we've talked about this on the podcast before.

00:56:35.000 There's a really weird video from the early days of the Afghan war where Geraldo Rivera is on Fox News and he's showing US soldiers guarding poppy fields.

00:56:49.000 And that they're guarding the poppy fields so that the poppy growers will help them out and rat out the Taliban. 0.99

00:56:57.000 And we're watching this going, what the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

00:57:01.000 The United States Army is guarding poppy fields? 0.99

00:57:05.000 Where is that heroin going?

00:57:08.000 Who's selling it?

00:57:09.000 How's it getting out of there?

00:57:11.000 How's it getting to America?

00:57:12.000 Because it is getting to America.

00:57:14.000 And if the soldiers are guarding it, what else are they doing?

00:57:17.000 Yeah.

00:57:18.000 So much of our heroin in the United States comes from South America now.

00:57:23.000 It used to come from Afghanistan, but most of it comes from South America.

00:57:28.000 But...

00:57:28.000 Again, your major point is, why are we guarding opium poppy fields, right?

00:57:35.000 Because it's a lucrative market.

00:57:39.000 And, well, we're finally using our military for something worthwhile.

00:57:45.000 You know, so...

00:57:49.000 You know, but to think about opioids seriously, you know, because the country thinks that we're in an opioid crisis and all of this nonsense that's going on.

00:58:06.000 I get these emails from parents.

00:58:08.000 I don't know if you know ASAPs, the ASAP group, the ASAP Mob folks, ASAP Rocky.

00:58:14.000 Do you know that group?

00:58:15.000 I don't know them personally, but I know who they are.

00:58:17.000 Yeah, so the founder of the group, ASAP Yams, Steven Rodriguez is his name, he died.

00:58:27.000 And his death was attributed to an opioid overdose.

00:58:31.000 I met his mom as a result of this and I looked at his toxicology and we had great conversations.

00:58:41.000 I consider her a friend now.

00:58:43.000 And so I take this seriously about the opioids.

00:58:49.000 When I look at how and why he died, he most likely died from ignorance.

00:58:57.000 That is, he didn't realize that if you mix something like oxycodone, that's what he had, oxycodone.

00:59:08.000 He had promethazine, which is an antihistamine.

00:59:13.000 Alcohol, benzodiazepine, a number of things in his system.

00:59:17.000 And those things combine to increase the likelihood of respiratory depression.

00:59:24.000 That's what I think.

00:59:25.000 Now, if he was simply seeking an opioid high, He would have been fine if he would only have taken the oxycodone.

00:59:36.000 But people don't realize that they shouldn't mix the opioid with an antihistamine, with alcohol, with a benzodiazepine, because that increases the likelihood of you having respiratory depression.

00:59:51.000 So many of these deaths are Caused by this type of ignorance.

00:59:57.000 And in other cases, we don't know why people are dying.

01:00:03.000 Like, for example, two, three weeks ago, I get an email from another woman who lost her son.

01:00:10.000 And what they told her was that the son died from an opioid, cocaine-related death.

01:00:19.000 She sent me to toxicology.

01:00:21.000 I looked at the levels of the opioid in his system.

01:00:25.000 This particular guy had fentanyl in his system and he had cocaine in his system.

01:00:31.000 Fentanyl is an opioid which is far more potent than heroin.

01:00:35.000 And we worry about that when people take fentanyl and thinking that it's heroin because they may take too much and die.

01:00:43.000 And cocaine was in his system.

01:00:45.000 But both of these drugs, the levels that were in his system For example, the cocaine was five times lower than the cocaine levels that we typically see in the lab when we're giving the drug and people are having a good time.

01:00:58.000 And the fentanyl level in his system was also really low.

01:01:03.000 So this poor guy What do you think he died?

01:01:21.000 Some substance that they didn't test for, maybe, or something else?

01:01:25.000 I don't know.

01:01:26.000 Is it possible that it was just an extreme reaction to the fentanyl and cocaine?

01:01:32.000 This particular kid, I'm calling him a kid, but he's 30-some years old.

01:01:39.000 He had a history of using these drugs.

01:01:44.000 So he would have definitely had tolerance to both opioids and cocaine.

01:01:50.000 So I don't think it was some strange reaction because these were his drugs of choice.

01:01:57.000 But my point is, is that people who are doing death investigations Medical examiners and coroners are allowed to get away with saying that someone died from an opioid-related death simply because the drug is in the system.

01:02:17.000 But when you start to really look at these levels, it's like, this wouldn't have killed the person.

01:02:21.000 And then they don't have to do their job anymore.

01:02:25.000 And I asked her about an autopsy.

01:02:28.000 And she said they didn't do one.

01:02:30.000 And so that really worries me.

01:02:34.000 Now, I understand that people can get in trouble with tainted drugs like heroin tainted with fentanyl.

01:02:44.000 That's a concern.

01:02:46.000 We have to deal with that.

01:02:48.000 But I'm also concerned that we have bought into this story about the opioid crises, and we are letting people off the hook in terms of informing the public about what's really going on.

01:03:04.000 Now, when you say that you think it's nonsense, like the opioid crisis is nonsense, I mean, there's a lot of people out there that are addicted to opioids.

01:03:12.000 Do you deny that?

01:03:15.000 No, I don't deny that.

01:03:17.000 A lot of people that seek refuge in pills, right?

01:03:20.000 They're just trying to avoid...

01:03:21.000 So let's just make sure we have our language.

01:03:24.000 So when we say addicted, we're talking about they meet criteria for this sort of substance use disorder that we've defined in medicine, right?

01:03:32.000 Yeah.

01:03:32.000 Okay, so the vast majority of people who use these drugs are not addicted.

01:03:38.000 Okay, but a lot of people who use these drugs are addicted.

01:03:41.000 Some.

01:03:42.000 A small percentage are addicted.

01:03:44.000 This is true.

01:03:45.000 Do you think that it's a side effect of...

01:03:51.000 Life problems, like they're avoiding their life in some sort of seeking, trying to seek pleasure in these things.

01:03:58.000 And so they're blaming the opioids on this sort of behavior pattern.

01:04:03.000 Exactly.

01:04:04.000 So let's think about the towns where we see these that's being ravaged by the opioid crisis.

01:04:10.000 West Virginia, Ohio, some parts of Michigan.

01:04:14.000 All of these places, what do they call them, Rust Belt, places where we had these factories, we had gainful employment, all of these people were doing fairly well.

01:04:26.000 Factories are all gone.

01:04:28.000 These people had been middle class. 0.99

01:04:30.000 They're no longer middle class and now they're being offered bullshit jobs with bullshit salaries. 1.00

01:04:37.000 They can't take care of their families. 1.00

01:04:39.000 And now they use opioids too, right?

01:04:42.000 I mean...

01:04:45.000 It's crazy. 1.00

01:05:03.000 Fuck, you don't need treatment centers. 1.00

01:05:05.000 You need jobs. 1.00

01:05:06.000 You need people here to have gainful employment.

01:05:10.000 That's what you need.

01:05:12.000 I mean, and so as long as you're not talking about employing these people, as long as you're not talking about making sure that they're not getting tainted drugs...

01:05:23.000 You're going to have these problems.

01:05:25.000 So it's mostly people that have problems with their life and then they seek refuge in these drugs.

01:05:30.000 But it's not really an opioid crisis.

01:05:32.000 It's more of a life crisis.

01:05:34.000 I would bet big money that they're using more alcohol than they are using opioids because alcohol is just more accessible.

01:05:42.000 But the opioid thing is just more sexy for the politician to focus on.

01:05:47.000 And the politician can come in and be the hero because they got a certain amount of money allocated for this region because of the opioid crisis.

01:05:58.000 Opioids are being scapegoated here.

01:06:00.000 And this is not to say people aren't having real problems, because I know they are.

01:06:04.000 I mean, I've been out to the Rust Belt in these places, and I get these phone calls from these parents.

01:06:11.000 And so I know this is a real thing.

01:06:14.000 What do you tell them?

01:06:15.000 Like, if a parent calls you up and says that they have a kid that's addicted to opioids, what should I do?

01:06:21.000 Yeah, I have gotten a number of parents who have done that sort of thing.

01:06:27.000 One woman has lost like three girls as a result of this kind of thing.

01:06:34.000 The thing is, I try to make sure that they are not judgmental and that they make sure that they can get their chow back.

01:06:44.000 A safe supply of drug first.

01:06:46.000 That's number one.

01:06:48.000 Because the real danger for me is when they start to get tainted drugs.

01:06:53.000 As you may know, I mean, they say that Prince has died from a fentanyl-related overdose.

01:06:59.000 He thought he had Percocet and he had fentanyl.

01:07:04.000 That's the real concern that I have at first.

01:07:07.000 So it's like, let's keep them alive first.

01:07:10.000 And then we can work on the stuff that is driving them to engage in maybe drug use that's disruptive to their sort of normal functioning.

01:07:24.000 Yeah, I think that was Tom Petty as well.

01:07:26.000 I think he died from the same situation.

01:07:29.000 A tainted drug situation?

01:07:32.000 Yeah.

01:07:33.000 No way this should happen in a civilized society.

01:07:37.000 You go to a place like Spain, you go to Austria, you go to Colombia, you go to the Netherlands.

01:07:43.000 All of these places have these drug testing centers.

01:07:47.000 So you can take a small sample of your drug and they will give you a chemical printout of what you have.

01:07:52.000 And so you will know if your substance is tainted.

01:07:56.000 And we don't in this country.

01:07:59.000 Yeah, we have to change our attitudes about these drugs.

01:08:02.000 What do you think the best way, other than these kind of conversations and putting these conversations out in the public, what's the best way to get people to reconsider their preconceived notions?

01:08:15.000 Popular culture.

01:08:16.000 We think about comedians.

01:08:20.000 Let's think about comedians.

01:08:23.000 It's always a cheap joke. 1.00

01:08:25.000 You can say some stupid shit about crack. 1.00

01:08:27.000 People laugh. 1.00

01:08:28.000 They like it.

01:08:29.000 It's not true, but it keeps the narrative going.

01:08:33.000 That's one.

01:08:34.000 I watched the late night shows with Colbert, Seth Meyers.

01:08:39.000 I love what those guys do.

01:08:42.000 Colbert, during this COVID situation, always has a stiff drink with him now.

01:08:47.000 And then he's drinking his alcohol, then he's besmirching something like weed or something else.

01:08:54.000 It's like, come on, you're a smart guy, you know better than that.

01:08:57.000 But the same thing with Seth Meyers, they besmirch other drugs.

01:09:04.000 I mean, so you have to, they have to stop that.

01:09:07.000 They need to, because as long as they're doing that, it continues the narrative. 1.00

01:09:12.000 Our movies, When politicians say stupid shit about drugs, we have to check them. 1.00

01:09:18.000 When your family members say stupid shit about drugs and drug users, when you talk about a typical drug user, look at me. 1.00

01:09:25.000 I'm accomplished. 1.00

01:09:26.000 I do all of these things.

01:09:28.000 I'm productive, but I'm a drug user.

01:09:30.000 How often are you using drugs?

01:09:33.000 How often?

01:09:34.000 Probably every day I use something psychoactive.

01:09:36.000 Every day.

01:09:38.000 I mean, every day.

01:09:39.000 Not just like caffeine.

01:09:40.000 I don't do caffeine.

01:09:43.000 I don't do caffeine and I don't do alcohol.

01:09:46.000 That's hilarious.

01:09:48.000 No, I can't do those things.

01:09:49.000 I mean, it's like, if you're going to do a drug, do a drug.

01:09:51.000 Really.

01:09:52.000 You know, like a man.

01:09:55.000 That's how you said it.

01:09:56.000 Do a drug like a man. 0.97

01:09:57.000 Come on! 1.00

01:09:58.000 Have a fucking drink of whiskey. 1.00

01:10:00.000 Have some heroin. 1.00

01:10:02.000 Well, no.

01:10:04.000 I understand.

01:10:04.000 Check it out, man.

01:10:06.000 Like, alcohol.

01:10:06.000 As I get older, I can't do it.

01:10:10.000 It's not, you know, I have to listen to my body.

01:10:14.000 Heroin is a lot more gentle on my body than alcohol is.

01:10:19.000 Interesting.

01:10:20.000 Yeah, I mean, I just can't do it.

01:10:21.000 I can't do alcohol.

01:10:22.000 Really?

01:10:23.000 Yeah.

01:10:23.000 So for you to relax like a little sniff of heroin is a relaxing thing.

01:10:27.000 Oh, it's heaven.

01:10:29.000 I mean, I'm...

01:10:30.000 Chill.

01:10:31.000 It's great.

01:10:31.000 I mean, I can be forgiving and take the other person's perspective, understanding.

01:10:42.000 I want to be a better citizen, a better person.

01:10:44.000 That's so interesting because that is not how people think of heroin.

01:10:48.000 They think of heroin as someone...

01:10:49.000 Lying there with a rubber band strapped around their arm, like half out of it, needle poking out of their vein, life falling apart.

01:10:58.000 You don't think of someone becoming more compassionate, more interested in hearing someone's thoughts and ideas, putting yourself in their position.

01:11:08.000 Absolutely.

01:11:08.000 No, I know, man.

01:11:10.000 It's like the heroin user that we see in public culture.

01:11:15.000 It's some poor soul who has taken too much, typically intravenously, and is nodding or doing something.

01:11:23.000 If people are nodding when they're doing their opioid, that means they've taken too much.

01:11:29.000 And that means that they're wasting their high.

01:11:31.000 It's like, you want to be up for this.

01:11:33.000 Did I ever tell you a story about the pool hustler who used to do heroin?

01:11:36.000 No.

01:11:37.000 There was a guy named...

01:11:38.000 He had two different nicknames.

01:11:40.000 One of them was Buffalo Bill, because he had this crazy mustache.

01:11:43.000 The other one was Water Dog, and he was this dude in Connecticut.

01:11:47.000 And he was a top-flight professional pool player.

01:11:52.000 And he would gamble for big money, but he had to do heroin first.

01:11:56.000 So I used to play at this place called Executive Billiards in White Plains, New York.

01:12:00.000 And it was an unusual place at the time where there was a lot of action.

01:12:03.000 I mean, a lot of guys came there from all over the country to gamble because they knew they'd get games there because there was a lot of gamblers in that particular pool hall.

01:12:11.000 And it was open until like 5, 6 o'clock in the morning.

01:12:14.000 But the people who worked there all encouraged gambling.

01:12:17.000 My friend Guy, Guy Azariti, he's no longer with us, but he actually owned the place.

01:12:22.000 And so he loved the whole gambling aspect of it.

01:12:27.000 Well, this guy would go to the bathroom, he would shoot up, and he would come out, and he would sit on a stool like this.

01:12:36.000 Just sit, like, motionless.

01:12:38.000 Like, his lids would be heavy, and his arms would be like T-Rex, just, like, hanging there.

01:12:44.000 And he would sit there for, like, 20, 30 minutes, and then he would get out of it, and then he wouldn't miss anything.

01:12:51.000 It was crazy.

01:12:52.000 It was crazy.

01:12:54.000 Because he would play this guy George the Greek.

01:12:56.000 And George the Greek was this real gruff New York character. 0.94

01:13:00.000 Talked like this all the time. 1.00

01:13:01.000 This motherfucker can't miss. 1.00

01:13:03.000 He gets his shit and he can't fucking miss. 1.00

01:13:05.000 He would be so angry. 1.00

01:13:06.000 Because you couldn't rattle him.

01:13:08.000 You couldn't get...

01:13:09.000 Like...

01:13:11.000 There's a misconception of the term pool shark.

01:13:13.000 They think it's a guy who comes in and is really good at pool.

01:13:16.000 Sharking someone means to distract them while they're playing.

01:13:19.000 That's what sharking means.

01:13:20.000 Like if a guy is going to make a shot and you move and you try to do something to take his eye out.

01:13:26.000 Right on, right on.

01:13:27.000 You could do everything to him.

01:13:28.000 You could yell while he was playing.

01:13:29.000 He didn't see it.

01:13:30.000 He was gone. 1.00

01:13:31.000 He would have like gerbil eyes and just fucking shoot those balls right into the heart of the pocket. 1.00

01:13:36.000 And they were gambling for a lot of money. 0.99

01:13:38.000 And he was really frustrated.

01:13:39.000 But I'll never forget that. 0.98

01:13:40.000 This guy would do heroin and just couldn't fucking miss. 0.97

01:13:44.000 And their thought was that he had burned his nerves off. 0.98

01:13:48.000 That somehow or another, when he would do the heroin, he had no more nerves.

01:13:51.000 He had no anxiety, no nothing.

01:13:54.000 They weren't heroin users.

01:13:56.000 So they had all these ideas.

01:13:58.000 I don't know what about it was.

01:14:01.000 Clearly, he had an addiction.

01:14:03.000 But clearly, he was also a top-of-the-food-chain pool player.

01:14:08.000 It was very weird to see that these guys would come up with all these excuses why this guy could do heroin and beat everybody.

01:14:15.000 Well, yeah, you know, I guess I have a personal story that's kind of close, I guess, as close as I can get.

01:14:25.000 One of the things that I love to do is the day after doing heroin.

01:14:32.000 And then doing an interview or something, or doing something, a talk.

01:14:39.000 I am at my best the day after.

01:14:44.000 Because all of those worries are gone.

01:14:48.000 And you are just focused on what you have to do.

01:14:51.000 At least I am.

01:14:51.000 I'm just focused on what I have to do.

01:14:54.000 And the world is alright with me. 0.96

01:14:56.000 All this minor petty bullshit not bothering me, you know? 0.98

01:15:01.000 So would you do it, like say if you had some very important conversation on television or something like that, would you do heroin the day before purposely? 0.98

01:15:09.000 Oh, I have done it.

01:15:11.000 And I do, you know, when I did like a TED Talk, I do these kind of things.

01:15:17.000 I mark them by like a drug.

01:15:20.000 Like my TED Talk was on methamphetamine.

01:15:23.000 And then, you know, or some interview the day before I did heroin or something.

01:15:28.000 Just so I know in my head, and it just goes against all of these sort of stereotypes.

01:15:35.000 And it's what I do to feel better and to be a better person.

01:15:41.000 That's an interesting thing that people would never believe, right?

01:15:47.000 That you do heroin and these drugs to be a better person.

01:15:50.000 That flies in the face of conventional thinking.

01:15:53.000 I mean, as a comedian, I think about...

01:15:58.000 Getting on that stage, and then you have to have...

01:16:01.000 Your job is to make people laugh, and it's a hard thing.

01:16:05.000 All of us, we try to be funny in our life, and we're not funny, right?

01:16:09.000 And in our hands, it's not funny.

01:16:12.000 I think about all the pressure that, like, the top comedians have when they get on that stage.

01:16:18.000 And then you're expected to do it again and again in this internet age, too, with new material.

01:16:24.000 Mm-hmm.

01:16:27.000 How do you do that?

01:16:30.000 I'm thinking about like John Mulaney.

01:16:34.000 His recent troubles.

01:16:37.000 Guy hosted Saturday Night Live twice in the past year. 0.98

01:16:41.000 I mean, that's a big fucking honor. 0.97

01:16:46.000 How to show all this pressure. 0.96

01:16:51.000 You need something in order to do these kind of things and also to feel better and be upbeat and be excited to see these audiences.

01:17:06.000 When you are exhausted from putting this together.

01:17:09.000 I mean, you are just exhausted.

01:17:11.000 It's a hard thing.

01:17:12.000 And we don't have this conversation in society.

01:17:15.000 What we do, the conversation we can have in our society is, oh, yeah, that comic, he was out of control and drugs did that to him.

01:17:24.000 That's the only conversation we're allowed to have.

01:17:26.000 Like John Mulaney.

01:17:27.000 Yeah.

01:17:28.000 The only thing we're allowed to do is have that conversation.

01:17:31.000 And it's like, wait, wait, hold up. 1.00

01:17:33.000 This guy accomplished all of this shit. 0.96

01:17:35.000 And I don't know this guy personally, and I apologize. 0.98

01:17:40.000 I don't mean to say anything negative about him because I think he's really funny.

01:17:46.000 But the point is that...

01:17:49.000 I know drugs were not his problem.

01:17:52.000 I don't know what else is going on in his life, but I know something's going on if he checked in.

01:17:59.000 But I know that this guy's accomplishments Are just inconsistent with somebody who is addicted to drugs.

01:18:10.000 That's just inconsistent.

01:18:11.000 I think, well, I don't know John well.

01:18:14.000 I've met him.

01:18:15.000 He's a very nice guy.

01:18:15.000 And I think, I agree with you, he's very funny.

01:18:19.000 Being a prominent national level comedian like he is, is stressful.

01:18:25.000 I can speak to that.

01:18:26.000 I do it.

01:18:27.000 It's stressful.

01:18:28.000 I think the discussion is that he sought out drugs because I think he had been clean before and then he started using again during the pandemic.

01:18:44.000 A lot of people were stressed out, believe it or not, about not being able to perform.

01:18:51.000 I understand.

01:18:52.000 Me too.

01:18:53.000 I get this.

01:18:54.000 Their identity is wrapped up in that.

01:18:56.000 But I agree with you that it's a psychological issue that's probably going on more than a cocaine issue.

01:19:04.000 And some people...

01:19:06.000 It's very difficult for them to adjust, right?

01:19:08.000 Like there's things taken away from them.

01:19:10.000 They feel like there's a hole in their life because they can't do stand-up.

01:19:13.000 Yep.

01:19:13.000 And then maybe they try to alleviate some pressure or alleviate some anxiety with drugs and they decide that they've gone too far and they're using it too much.

01:19:24.000 You think it's a psychological issue, though, more than a chemical substance issue?

01:19:29.000 Here's what I think, and this is pure conjecture.

01:19:32.000 Mm-hmm.

01:19:33.000 I think that maybe something happened in the poor guy's life.

01:19:38.000 And then somebody knew that he did cocaine.

01:19:41.000 And it was easy to scapegoat cocaine as opposed to what's really going on.

01:19:48.000 Right.

01:19:48.000 That's what I think happened.

01:19:50.000 You bust into a hotel room and John's naked with 15 hookers. 1.00

01:19:54.000 And you're like, I gotta stop doing cocaine. 0.98

01:19:56.000 Yeah.

01:20:00.000 You know, the specifics of the story, I don't know what happened.

01:20:04.000 I'm just joking.

01:20:05.000 John, I hope you hear this.

01:20:06.000 Yeah, but I don't think it's cocaine.

01:20:12.000 I don't know.

01:20:12.000 You know, I don't know.

01:20:14.000 I do know guys that, like my friend Jim Norton, he's been clean since he was 19. Let's think about that statement for a second.

01:20:23.000 Yeah.

01:20:23.000 Let's think about it because he's 53, I think?

01:20:25.000 Yeah, let's just think about that.

01:20:26.000 Okay.

01:20:27.000 He's been clean since he's 19. At 19, you're still a fucking chow. 1.00

01:20:32.000 Yeah, it's true. 1.00

01:20:33.000 And so it's like, what are you cleaning from?

01:20:36.000 Well, he was doing a lot of drugs. 0.99

01:20:38.000 At 19, I know, and he was probably doing a lot of other shit that he was fucking up. 0.99

01:20:42.000 I mean, whether it's from sex, driving a car, whatever it is, he was probably doing a lot of other shit that he was fucking up in. 0.99

01:20:50.000 And he's probably doing those things better now because he's grown up. 0.98

01:20:54.000 But yet we tell a story about him being clean at 19. That's some stupid shit that we say that. 1.00

01:21:00.000 What do you feel about alcoholics though? 1.00

01:21:03.000 Because there are people that just can't drink.

01:21:06.000 Or at least they say they can't drink.

01:21:08.000 If they drink, they just go off the deep end.

01:21:11.000 Yeah, I don't believe that.

01:21:13.000 I mean, that's just...

01:21:15.000 You know, people, if they feel like, I'm a better person, I don't drink, great.

01:21:20.000 That's great for you.

01:21:21.000 But to say, like, there's this general principle where people can't drink, that's not true.

01:21:27.000 That's just not...

01:21:27.000 There's no evidence for that.

01:21:29.000 No evidence at all.

01:21:30.000 So do you think that's just a common cultural narrative that there's people that can't drink?

01:21:35.000 It's a common cultural myth.

01:21:38.000 Yeah.

01:21:39.000 But that's okay if it's keeping you away from trouble in your mind.

01:21:45.000 That's fine.

01:21:46.000 That's your thing.

01:21:47.000 But do not act like that's a real thing.

01:21:50.000 So when a person is an alcoholic and they drink all the time, one thing that is true is that people, like alcohol is one of the interesting drugs in that it's commonly available and it's one of the rare ones.

01:22:02.000 Where getting off of it will kill you, right?

01:22:04.000 Like, if you are addicted to drugs, and they think that's what happened to Amy Winehouse, unfortunately. 0.99

01:22:09.000 Yes, yes.

01:22:10.000 Yeah, alcohol, if you just go cold turkey, eat your body.

01:22:14.000 Why is that?

01:22:14.000 What's the process?

01:22:16.000 Yeah, it's a dangerous thing, and we don't talk enough about this in society because people say, I'm gonna kick it, I'm gonna go cold turkey.

01:22:23.000 Don't go cold turkey with alcohol, please.

01:22:26.000 Because alcohol, what happens is that if you've been drinking for a long time in your life, it suppresses neural activity.

01:22:37.000 So it's really good at increasing this neurotransmitter called GABA, and GABA inhibits other Neurotransmitters.

01:22:48.000 And so your brain, it slows down the activity of these neurons, right?

01:22:54.000 So it suppresses these other, these neurons in the brain.

01:22:58.000 And now, if you abruptly discontinue alcohol use...

01:23:04.000 Now the neurons fire wildly.

01:23:08.000 And so what happens is that when the neurons fire wildly, you have a seizure.

01:23:17.000 And the seizure is the thing that kills you.

01:23:20.000 Interesting.

01:23:21.000 Yeah, so that's why you want to tell people, go see a physician and slowly titrate, take something like a benzodiazepine, and then it will slowly bring the neurons back around.

01:23:37.000 Interesting.

01:23:38.000 So did they have to wean off of it?

01:23:40.000 Yes.

01:23:41.000 So slowly.

01:23:41.000 Yeah, but you won't be weaning off of alcohol.

01:23:44.000 Instead, you'll be weaning off of a benzodiazepine, which has a similar effect of alcohol, at least on these neurons.

01:23:51.000 So you would stop alcohol, cold turkey, but go on the benzodiazepine and then slowly work your way off.

01:23:57.000 Yeah.

01:23:58.000 My friend Jordan Peterson had a problem with benzodiazepine.

01:24:01.000 I don't know if you've heard that.

01:24:02.000 I have.

01:24:03.000 Yeah.

01:24:03.000 What did you think of that?

01:24:06.000 I understand why he would have a problem because he blew up, you know, just all of a sudden.

01:24:11.000 And then he had all of these people who hated him and loved him.

01:24:15.000 So I understand people having problems.

01:24:18.000 Psychologically.

01:24:19.000 Yeah, and I understand using benzos because benzos help some people to relax.

01:24:25.000 There are better drugs for that.

01:24:26.000 But I understand.

01:24:28.000 I get that.

01:24:29.000 So, yeah, I get it.

01:24:33.000 What are you asking?

01:24:34.000 He had a really hard time getting off of them and had some serious withdrawal problems getting off of benzodiazepines.

01:24:43.000 His body didn't react very well.

01:24:46.000 I don't want to speak on it because all I know is what I've read.

01:24:50.000 I haven't even talked to him personally about it.

01:24:54.000 Why is he getting off of them?

01:24:57.000 Why is he trying to get off of them?

01:24:59.000 That's the question that I want to know.

01:25:01.000 Do you not want to take them anymore?

01:25:05.000 I don't know.

01:25:08.000 I'm assuming there was some sort of a negative reaction.

01:25:11.000 Or maybe he decided he needed to be sober.

01:25:14.000 Yeah, this is the thing.

01:25:16.000 We have to ask that first question.

01:25:19.000 It's like, wait, you enjoy this and you're good, you're working and you're taking care of your family, so why do you want to stop?

01:25:28.000 What's going on?

01:25:30.000 That's the question.

01:25:31.000 If people are putting pressure on you, now that's a...

01:25:34.000 Sort of morality issue, maybe?

01:25:36.000 I don't know.

01:25:37.000 Could be.

01:25:38.000 We have to ask that question.

01:25:41.000 I mean, Jordan seemed to be productive in all the rest of those things.

01:25:46.000 He seemed to be doing what society would have people do.

01:25:54.000 Being prolific and working a lot.

01:25:57.000 What do benzos do? 1.00

01:26:00.000 Benzos, just think of them like alcohol.

01:26:03.000 A longer lasting alcohol.

01:26:07.000 Really?

01:26:07.000 Yeah.

01:26:08.000 So it suppresses your anxiety?

01:26:10.000 Yeah.

01:26:10.000 That's what they treat.

01:26:11.000 Relaxes you?

01:26:12.000 They use to treat anxiety.

01:26:13.000 That's their primary use.

01:26:17.000 And would it also act as a social lubricant the same way?

01:26:20.000 Oh, absolutely.

01:26:21.000 Yeah?

01:26:21.000 Absolutely.

01:26:23.000 Is there withdrawal symptoms associated with getting off of benzos?

01:26:28.000 Yes.

01:26:29.000 So just like alcohol, just think of benzos and the older barbiturates.

01:26:36.000 Remember the barbiturates?

01:26:37.000 And alcohol, you think of those as the same class of drugs.

01:26:41.000 And all three of those sort of classes, you can't abruptly discontinue because you might run the risk of killing yourself.

01:26:50.000 Wow.

01:26:52.000 That doesn't sound good.

01:26:53.000 That sounds like a reason to not do benzos, just to avoid killing yourself.

01:26:56.000 Well, you know, there are just better drugs, too, for those kind of things.

01:27:00.000 Like opioids, I'm telling you.

01:27:02.000 If people had a safe supply, not like Percocets or Vicodin, you know, you and I have talked about this in the past, about Percocets and Vicodin.

01:27:11.000 The concern that I have with them is that they have Tylenol or acetaminophen in them.

01:27:19.000 Large doses of acetaminophen are in Percocet and just a small amount of opioid.

01:27:28.000 The acetaminophen is the thing that's going to really harm you in that case.

01:27:33.000 So we need to take the acetaminophen out of that.

01:27:36.000 So if you're going to do an opioid, don't do that formulation.

01:27:41.000 Just do the opioid.

01:27:42.000 So ideally, if the world was a perfect place, you'd be able to get pure heroin.

01:27:47.000 Yeah, you will be able to get heroin, pure heroin, or even morphine.

01:27:57.000 They're essentially the same.

01:27:59.000 And you can do your thing.

01:28:02.000 You understand, just like with alcohol, These drugs are capable of producing dependence such that you might go through a withdrawal.

01:28:10.000 If you're taking large doses every day for several months, that may not be a good thing.

01:28:19.000 We have alcohol in this society, and most people don't do alcohol.

01:28:25.000 A large amount of alcohol every day.

01:28:27.000 So you would do an opioid in a similar way.

01:28:31.000 And when you say this, like, the dependence, what is the physical dependence?

01:28:37.000 Like, what is happening to someone when they get dependent upon opioids?

01:28:40.000 Like, what's the mechanism in the body?

01:28:43.000 Yeah, so one of the things that happens...

01:28:47.000 Opioids do a lot.

01:28:49.000 One of the things that they do, just to take one function, is that they slow down the motility of the gut.

01:28:57.000 So you don't pass things as quickly.

01:29:00.000 You get constipated, right?

01:29:02.000 They hear about that with pills.

01:29:04.000 Yeah.

01:29:04.000 So with heroin and all of these opioids, you get constipated because it slows down the motility.

01:29:10.000 So what the body does is try to counteract what's going on, because you have these compensatory mechanisms, these mechanisms that try to maintain homostasis.

01:29:23.000 Now, those forces are activated.

01:29:27.000 And when you've been taking these drugs for a long period of time, those forces are ramped up.

01:29:35.000 And now you just abruptly discontinue the use of these drugs.

01:29:40.000 Those forces are still ramped up.

01:29:43.000 And now the opioid is not there.

01:29:45.000 So you're going to get like this over effect, this super effect.

01:29:53.000 So you'll get this tremendous amount of diarrhea as a result because those forces are ramped up to get your stuff moving.

01:29:59.000 That's never a good statement.

01:30:00.000 We never hear tremendous amount of diarrhea.

01:30:03.000 Yeah, so that's what happens.

01:30:05.000 And that's one of the things that can happen, and that's not good.

01:30:12.000 So it's basically your body's compensation for the opioids, and that opioids are removed, so the compensation exists, but there's nothing to battle against.

01:30:23.000 That's right, so you get just overcompensation.

01:30:26.000 And so really you have to slowly wean it so your body comes to recognize that it doesn't need to compensate as much.

01:30:33.000 And then over time, you can sort of ease off, like step off the skateboard.

01:30:38.000 Absolutely.

01:30:39.000 And if people do that, shouldn't have any problems.

01:30:45.000 And this is something that you would...

01:30:48.000 I would think that if it was legal and we had legitimate professional places where a person could get these things, where people had an understanding of it, because most people...

01:31:01.000 Most people don't necessarily have a good understanding of the physical response to the body, to these opiates.

01:31:10.000 But if you had a place where you could get it from and they could explain it to you, this is why you have to be careful getting off of this.

01:31:16.000 This is what's going on in your body and this is how you avoid.

01:31:19.000 This is how you mitigate these real problems that can be associated with just stopping cold turkey.

01:31:24.000 Yeah, we should do this for all drugs.

01:31:27.000 Just in our regular...

01:31:29.000 General drug education.

01:31:31.000 But in our zeal to vilify these drugs, we only talk about the negative effects of it.

01:31:38.000 Yeah.

01:31:39.000 No, that's all you ever hear.

01:31:40.000 Especially when you're talking about heroin, meth, these kind of drugs.

01:31:45.000 You don't ever hear a person like you, educated, intelligent, good-looking guy, saying nice things.

01:31:51.000 Yeah.

01:31:51.000 Well, thank you for all of that, but...

01:31:55.000 You don't hear that though, right?

01:31:57.000 You don't?

01:31:57.000 No, absolutely, man.

01:32:01.000 It's really troubling because, you know, I have kids.

01:32:04.000 My kids, my youngest, just turned 20. And so my kids are in this sort of drug-using potential stage at this age, right?

01:32:13.000 Yeah.

01:32:13.000 And so I was faced a long time ago with this issue.

01:32:22.000 My kids will be in a drug using age at some point.

01:32:27.000 So what do I want them to know?

01:32:30.000 And so that really drives me to be like, all right. 0.99

01:32:35.000 Let's get all this shit on the table. 0.99

01:32:37.000 Because if you're faced with this and you use, you will know how to stay safe and you'll know how to keep your friends safe. 0.99

01:32:45.000 So it's like, no moralism here.

01:32:48.000 All I care about is that you're a good person and that you're safe.

01:32:52.000 That's all I care about.

01:32:53.000 Well, that's a very unique environment, right?

01:32:55.000 You don't have the normal scare tactics or the normal fear that parents have of the kids getting hooked on drugs.

01:33:04.000 That's what all you hear.

01:33:05.000 Hooked.

01:33:06.000 And losing their lives.

01:33:07.000 Their lives fall apart because they got hooked on drugs.

01:33:11.000 Yeah, I'd see that you raise a really good point here, man.

01:33:13.000 I'm glad you brings this point because when we talk about why we have this narrative about drugs, because there are a number of constituencies who are benefiting from this narrative.

01:33:28.000 And parents are a constituency that are benefiting from this narrative.

01:33:33.000 Because if you just say, you don't do drugs, that's one less thing that the parents have to actually teach about to their children.

01:33:41.000 So they're in on this too.

01:33:44.000 I think they believe it though, for the most part.

01:33:46.000 Most of the parents that are saying, don't do drugs, you get hooked on drugs, they believe and they're worried.

01:33:51.000 Wait, wait.

01:33:51.000 Don't get me wrong.

01:33:52.000 Just because you believe it doesn't mean that you're not in on it and you're not benefiting from it.

01:33:57.000 I think they do believe it, but they need to understand that they're also in on it.

01:34:04.000 Mm-hmm.

01:34:19.000 And so that's why we tell parents things like, well, you know, it can happen to anyone.

01:34:27.000 It can.

01:34:28.000 That's not really true.

01:34:32.000 There are things we can do, things you can do as a parent.

01:34:36.000 But we have let parents off the hook.

01:34:39.000 And I'm not putting this on parents.

01:34:42.000 I think a lot of us have played a role here.

01:34:45.000 But the parents have to understand that they too have a role that they played here.

01:34:49.000 Now, what do you think about rehab centers?

01:34:54.000 Put it this way.

01:34:56.000 If I had a loved one who had a drug problem, a drug problem, air quotes, I wouldn't know where to send them.

01:35:04.000 I would probably send them to Switzerland.

01:35:09.000 And I'm dead serious.

01:35:12.000 I would not because what we classify as drug problems in this country oftentimes are not drug problems.

01:35:19.000 There are other issues.

01:35:20.000 But we scapegoat drugs. 0.98

01:35:23.000 Do you remember Celebrity Rehab?

01:35:25.000 Dr. Drew?

01:35:26.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:35:27.000 Fucking idiot. 1.00

01:35:28.000 Yep. 1.00

01:35:29.000 Whoa.

01:35:30.000 Yep.

01:35:31.000 Yeah.

01:35:32.000 What's your thoughts on that?

01:35:34.000 I don't think he knows anything about drugs.

01:35:36.000 Doesn't he run a drug addiction and treatment center?

01:35:39.000 I don't think he knows anything about drugs.

01:35:42.000 In terms of personal experiences?

01:35:45.000 I did Anderson Cooper with him one night and we were talking off camera and it was clear to me he knows nothing about drugs.

01:35:59.000 In what way?

01:36:02.000 What drugs do?

01:36:04.000 Why people do drugs?

01:36:06.000 Anything. 0.99

01:36:09.000 Those people are charlatans. 0.89

01:36:14.000 Again, I'm trying to be a better person. 0.93

01:36:17.000 And I'm trying to...

01:36:19.000 Be compassionate.

01:36:20.000 But I have little compassion for people who are benefiting off of other people's suffering.

01:36:27.000 And there are a number of them out here.

01:36:30.000 And they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

01:36:35.000 Well, they don't do that celebrity rehab show anymore.

01:36:37.000 But I remember watching and thinking, this has got to be the worst environment for psychological health.

01:36:50.000 We're good to go.

01:37:06.000 No, that's the last thing I would say.

01:37:08.000 I know.

01:37:08.000 I would say what you need is silence, you need some personal reflection, find out what your problem is, but you need also some productive things to distract yourself with.

01:37:18.000 Like maybe you should take up yoga, take up meditation, start exercising, do some Positive things for your health if you think your life is in a bad place and you're in a downward spiral, whether it's because of the drugs or because of behavior patterns you find yourself in or just because of the fact that you're avoiding something in your life that's disturbing you.

01:37:37.000 You need positive reinforcement.

01:37:40.000 You need good things in your life.

01:37:42.000 Let's think about this, just like you're saying.

01:37:44.000 These people are at a low point and they're having problems.

01:37:49.000 And then we say we're going to bring in cameras and exploit that for the drama.

01:37:55.000 There's no way that's good.

01:37:56.000 I know.

01:37:57.000 I know.

01:37:57.000 And that's why this is what I'm saying.

01:38:00.000 If you have a medical degree and you think that that's okay...

01:38:07.000 Something's very wrong there.

01:38:09.000 Very wrong.

01:38:10.000 It's exploitation.

01:38:11.000 Yeah, it is exploitation.

01:38:12.000 That's exactly it.

01:38:14.000 And it shows that you don't care about those people that you're supposedly treating.

01:38:21.000 And that's the thing that really, it really irritates me when we get these experts on TV with their patients on TV. That is not healthy for anybody involved.

01:38:38.000 Right.

01:38:39.000 Just not healthy.

01:38:41.000 But that guy, Dr. Drew, doesn't know anything about drugs.

01:38:44.000 Nothing about drugs.

01:38:46.000 That's crazy that...

01:38:48.000 Well, it doesn't exist anymore, right?

01:38:51.000 But it is crazy that they thought that was a good idea.

01:38:53.000 And it takes celebrities who are famous who have drug problems...

01:38:57.000 My favorite one was Dennis Rodman because all he did was work out.

01:39:01.000 He seemed fine.

01:39:02.000 He was on the treadmill running.

01:39:05.000 I never saw the show, but I'm sure he probably was fine.

01:39:12.000 But they thought that it would increase the ratings.

01:39:15.000 You know how these things work.

01:39:17.000 Just a side story.

01:39:19.000 So when we were talking off camera, Anderson Cooper was asking a serious question of both of us, really me, about MDMA, considering using MDMA and was wanting to know like the real deal.

01:39:36.000 And I was trying to like help him understand, you know, all of the sort of...tried to give him a comprehensive understanding in a quick time period. 1.00

01:39:47.000 And this Dr. Drew idiot was chiming in and the way he was describing what MDMA does just let me know that he knew nothing about MDMA and that he was just an idiot. 0.99

01:40:04.000 Because, you know, if you don't know, when you're in the presence of an expert on something, most adults shut the fuck up because they might be able to learn something, right? 1.00

01:40:18.000 He didn't. 0.88

01:40:19.000 And then that really told me a lot about him as a person.

01:40:23.000 You know, like, if I'm in the presence, if...

01:40:26.000 If somebody's asking me about, how do I increase my subscriber base to my podcast, you know, and you're there or something, and then I would shut up.

01:40:36.000 I mean, or somebody asked me about being a comedian.

01:40:40.000 I mean, I would like to be funny, but I know I'm not a comedian.

01:40:44.000 I would shut up when I'm in the presence of an expert, of people who know.

01:40:48.000 But he didn't.

01:40:50.000 But he is a doctor, right?

01:40:52.000 I mean...

01:40:53.000 What is that?

01:40:54.000 Does he have...

01:40:57.000 Wait, wait, wait.

01:40:57.000 Hold up.

01:40:59.000 Let's be clear.

01:41:00.000 He has a medical degree, right?

01:41:02.000 And so he's taken a class of two in pharmacology with drugs, study of drugs.

01:41:08.000 That's it.

01:41:09.000 Whereas you are an actual expert.

01:41:11.000 Yeah, this is what I do, I study, and the literature that he's reading about how these things work is from the papers that I wrote, the papers that I, you know, so that's the difference.

01:41:25.000 And so, like, think of it like, in terms of, like, I'm producing, and he's the consumer.

01:41:34.000 So this is my product, and I know more about my product, and he's the consumer, and he's, And he's telling people as a marketing agent, if you will, about my product that I produced.

01:41:48.000 I understand.

01:41:49.000 And was his thoughts on it, is this common misconceptions?

01:41:55.000 I don't know. 1.00

01:41:56.000 The shit was so stupid. 1.00

01:41:56.000 I was just like, I stopped listening and I told him that it was stupid. 1.00

01:42:00.000 And so I was trying to like really help Anderson because he asked a serious question. 0.97

01:42:04.000 I wanted to make sure he was good.

01:42:05.000 Anderson was trying to party safely.

01:42:07.000 That's right.

01:42:07.000 And I wanted to make sure he was good.

01:42:09.000 And I was just like, can you shut the fuck up, please? 0.99

01:42:13.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:42:16.000 You're such a nice guy.

01:42:17.000 When you get upset about something like this, I know it's real.

01:42:20.000 Yeah, because I'm really trying hard, man.

01:42:23.000 I'm trying to be a better person.

01:42:24.000 It's like I'm 54, and I'm trying to help other people live better too, man.

01:42:32.000 I don't want to be angry.

01:42:33.000 I don't like that.

01:42:34.000 It's just not good.

01:42:37.000 But I don't tolerate foods.

01:42:39.000 I don't do that.

01:42:40.000 Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

01:42:42.000 And it is unfortunate that someone like Anderson can't ask that on the air.

01:42:47.000 You know, he can't say, hey, listen.

01:42:49.000 Like, you and I are talking about cocaine.

01:42:51.000 Like, I've never done cocaine, but I do cocaine with you.

01:42:53.000 You know, like, okay, I've never done heroin other than the drip at the surgery center, but I'll do a little bit of...

01:43:00.000 I'd sniff a little heroin with you if you told me it's cool.

01:43:03.000 Don't worry about it, man.

01:43:04.000 When we get out of this pandemic...

01:43:07.000 We're gonna bring Afghanistan here and Colombian. 1.00

01:43:12.000 We'll be back.

01:43:14.000 Now, when you go to Colombia, you can just buy it in Colombia?

01:43:16.000 Is that how it works?

01:43:18.000 I don't buy drugs, man.

01:43:19.000 Do you give it to you?

01:43:21.000 Yeah, I don't...

01:43:22.000 You know, I'm out here, you know, me being a drug user.

01:43:27.000 I don't put myself in situations where people...

01:43:31.000 Could arrest you.

01:43:32.000 Yeah, don't do the compromising thing.

01:43:34.000 I don't do that.

01:43:35.000 Isn't that unfortunate?

01:43:36.000 It's very unfortunate, man, because I have to be paranoid about who's around me. 1.00

01:43:41.000 I hate that shit. 1.00

01:43:42.000 Do you have to be paranoid because of your public profile? 1.00

01:43:45.000 Because you're an ardent drug supporter?

01:43:47.000 Yeah, that's right, man.

01:43:49.000 Can you imagine it?

01:43:50.000 It's like, Columbia professor caught buying drugs.

01:43:55.000 I wouldn't do that to the university.

01:43:58.000 I would never do that.

01:44:00.000 Has that ever been a problem with the university, that you have this unusual stance on drugs, although very educated, and obviously you know what you're talking about?

01:44:12.000 I haven't felt it as a problem, so I don't know what the university feels about that, but check it out.

01:44:26.000 This is my perspective.

01:44:29.000 If anybody knows anything about the Declaration of Independence, it's a beautiful document.

01:44:38.000 It guarantees all of us at least three birthrights.

01:44:42.000 Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

01:44:45.000 But we talk about those things in this jingoistic way.

01:44:51.000 As opposed to really unpacking it, it's like, life, liberty...

01:44:56.000 That means that I can live my life however I see fit, as long as I don't stop others from doing the same.

01:45:04.000 And I can pursue happiness as I see fit.

01:45:08.000 The Declaration guarantees me that.

01:45:10.000 It doesn't guarantee me happiness.

01:45:12.000 It guarantees me the pursuit of happiness.

01:45:18.000 And I use drugs in my pursuit of happiness.

01:45:21.000 And so if I get pushback and that sort of thing, I'm willing to deal with it.

01:45:31.000 I'm willing to go to jail for using drugs.

01:45:35.000 And that's the thing I had to think about for myself.

01:45:39.000 If you really believe this, Are you willing to go to jail for it?

01:45:44.000 Absolutely.

01:45:44.000 I'm willing to risk these things.

01:45:48.000 Just like other people who reminded the country about its promise, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, And how the promise or the practice doesn't match the promise.

01:46:04.000 And so when I think of Rosa Parks sitting on that bus seat, she was doing that.

01:46:12.000 I think about all of these sort of people who we now revere.

01:46:18.000 Who I revere?

01:46:20.000 It's like, what kind of man am I if I can't live in the way that I know is right?

01:46:30.000 So when I think of the university and I think about pushback, what people say, I don't care.

01:46:37.000 As long as I am treating people well and I'm not abusing or mistreating people, I will worry if I'm mistreating people because that's not right.

01:46:50.000 But if I'm treating people well and people are bothering me about this issue, bring it on.

01:46:57.000 That's a very...

01:47:00.000 It's very confident and it's very admirable that you have that position because a lot of people, when faced with public scrutiny, there's a conventional idea of what drugs are and who drug users are, and they would immediately...

01:47:15.000 Most people are like, yeah, I feel differently, but I don't want the hassle.

01:47:19.000 I don't want to experience it.

01:47:20.000 I don't want to feel it.

01:47:21.000 I don't want the criticism.

01:47:23.000 I don't want to have to debate it.

01:47:24.000 I don't want to argue with people.

01:47:25.000 I'll just do my thing.

01:47:27.000 No, I know those people and many of them hang out with me or used to hang out with me and I've decided that there are so many people catching hell for being identified as a drug user that it's not right for us who are privileged and we can be in the closet when other people can't because they've been identified or whatever.

01:47:49.000 So I think that it is dishonoring those people.

01:47:54.000 And so I don't want to hang out with people who want to use drugs and be in the closet and not think about those other people who are catching hell.

01:48:04.000 So I decided only recently, you know, in writing this book, it's like, Yeah.

01:48:14.000 Yeah.

01:48:23.000 It's just wrong.

01:48:24.000 It's just flat out wrong.

01:48:26.000 I couldn't agree more.

01:48:27.000 I think it is wrong.

01:48:28.000 It's one of the weirder aspects of modern society that we do make these distinctions between different types of drugs that are acceptable and not acceptable.

01:48:36.000 And oftentimes the ones that are, like cannabis, far safer than the acceptable ones.

01:48:41.000 Certainly can be far safer, but you know, it could be also dangerous for some people.

01:48:47.000 Sure, yeah.

01:48:48.000 Well, I had Alex Berenson on the podcast who used to write for the New York Times and he wrote a book called Tell Your Children.

01:48:55.000 Oh, yeah.

01:48:56.000 Yeah.

01:48:56.000 And one of the conversations that we had were about people that have had bad reactions to high doses of marijuana and they have these schizophrenic breaks.

01:49:09.000 Well, Alex plays kind of fast and loose with the evidence, right?

01:49:21.000 Alex overinterprets that sort of thing.

01:49:27.000 There are people who use high doses of marijuana and get really paranoid and anxious and all of those things.

01:49:38.000 But they don't become schizophrenic.

01:49:41.000 So do you think the people that have these schizophrenic breaks were already schizophrenic?

01:49:44.000 Absolutely.

01:49:44.000 That's what the evidence shows, right?

01:49:47.000 But Alex is saying, presented like marijuana is causing schizophrenia.

01:49:53.000 And that's the problem.

01:49:55.000 And the evidence is not with him there.

01:50:00.000 Now, that's not the say.

01:50:04.000 We're good to go.

01:50:20.000 Those people is that the drug will eventually float away from the receptor and you'll come back to your normal self.

01:50:28.000 And so the best therapy for people is to have others just simply talk them down, make sure that they're chill, they understand that, don't worry, this is temporary. 0.99

01:50:41.000 Because if they think that, oh shit, I'm going to be fucked up forever... 0.96

01:50:45.000 And that causes them even more anxiety and they do something dangerous. 1.00

01:50:49.000 The downward spiral.

01:50:51.000 Exactly.

01:50:52.000 And so people like Alex are those people who are causing more harm in terms of how, I think, how he talks about this.

01:51:03.000 And so, yeah, he's always trying to goat me on Twitter to get into these conversations.

01:51:12.000 You know, it's like... 0.99

01:51:14.000 It's a real bitch move, you know? 1.00

01:51:16.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:51:17.000 But anyway.

01:51:18.000 Twitter's a weird place, man.

01:51:20.000 It's so not real life.

01:51:22.000 But yet it's human beings communicating with human beings.

01:51:25.000 But it's in a way that it's not...

01:51:26.000 It's all of the normal social contracts are abandoned.

01:51:31.000 All the normal protocol, the normal...

01:51:34.000 Compassion, the way people talk to a person in front.

01:51:37.000 The way people talk to people on Twitter, if they talk to people like that in real life, there would be brawls in the street.

01:51:42.000 Every day would be like an assault on Capitol Hill.

01:51:44.000 It would be madness. 0.99

01:51:46.000 It wouldn't be because those people, as you know, they're cowards and they wouldn't do that. 1.00

01:51:50.000 So that shit would just stop immediately. 1.00

01:51:53.000 Right. 1.00

01:51:57.000 Yeah.

01:51:57.000 But it's just so strange that it's such a prominent form of communication with human beings.

01:52:02.000 This complete unnatural way of communicating in text and communicating in a very insulting way oftentimes.

01:52:09.000 I know.

01:52:10.000 And, you know, one-way communication, like you're typing at your computer, it's always so...

01:52:21.000 Fraught with potential misunderstanding.

01:52:25.000 Even when you're talking to a loved one.

01:52:28.000 So it'd be nice if people remember that.

01:52:33.000 Yeah, well, if we really reinforce that and make that like a Like a core tenant of behavior.

01:52:41.000 I've let people know.

01:52:43.000 I'd like talking to people like this.

01:52:44.000 This is the best way.

01:52:46.000 Sitting there face to face and you rarely have...

01:52:49.000 I mean, it rarely gets ugly.

01:52:50.000 I hope you continue to do this here show.

01:52:54.000 I know I've seen you talk to people like...

01:52:57.000 I was really interested in one show particularly.

01:53:00.000 You had the cat on.

01:53:02.000 He's a comedian.

01:53:02.000 He's from my generation.

01:53:04.000 He has a podcast.

01:53:06.000 He's Italian, New York kind of person.

01:53:08.000 He might be from Boston.

01:53:10.000 Nick DiPaolo?

01:53:11.000 Nick.

01:53:11.000 Yeah.

01:53:12.000 So, like you were talking, and Nick is a Trump supporter, and you were asking him, I think, about, like, well, don't you think that Trump sometimes...

01:53:24.000 Gives misinformation.

01:53:26.000 You were saying something like that and he was basically saying he wouldn't go.

01:53:31.000 I don't know.

01:53:31.000 It was some deflection.

01:53:33.000 It was some deflection.

01:53:34.000 I was really interested in that conversation.

01:53:37.000 I was glad that you were having that conversation with him.

01:53:41.000 Actually, because I only really...

01:53:46.000 He's from my generation as comics.

01:53:49.000 You know, I love comedy.

01:53:51.000 That's one of the few things that I go out and support live shows.

01:53:55.000 I went out and supported him.

01:53:57.000 My wife and I went out.

01:53:58.000 Just, you know, do try and support people.

01:54:01.000 And we stood up front always and he just attacked us, you know.

01:54:08.000 Really?

01:54:08.000 And I'm always, you know, always there trying to cheer people on because I understand how hard it is.

01:54:15.000 And I never been so angry like at a comedian.

01:54:21.000 And I kind of hung around afterwards to like have a word with him, but he never came out. 0.99

01:54:27.000 And I don't know what the fuck was going on with him. 0.85

01:54:31.000 And I was there to support him, you know, just support people doing their craft. 0.98

01:54:37.000 And so like this sort of face to face conversation, that's what I wanted to have with him.

01:54:43.000 What was he attacking you about?

01:54:45.000 I don't know.

01:54:46.000 We were an interracial couple and it was something like that.

01:54:50.000 It wasn't just poking fun and having a good time?

01:54:55.000 Nah, it was mean, man.

01:54:56.000 You know, we stood up in front always and comedians always poke fun at us and that's a good thing, you know?

01:55:04.000 This was like an attack.

01:55:06.000 This was mean.

01:55:07.000 Just really mean.

01:55:11.000 And so I wanted to have a conversation with him. 0.99

01:55:14.000 Like, yo, what the fuck is up? 0.99

01:55:17.000 But maybe he was having a bad night or something. 0.99

01:55:20.000 I don't know.

01:55:20.000 The crowd was not laughing with him.

01:55:23.000 And he was like...

01:55:24.000 Where was this?

01:55:25.000 New York.

01:55:26.000 It was...

01:55:27.000 Caroline's?

01:55:28.000 No, it was one of the smaller places, and a lot of no-name comics were there, and the crowd was feeling them.

01:55:36.000 He came out.

01:55:38.000 They weren't really feeling him, so he just kind of turned on the crowd.

01:55:42.000 I think that's what happened.

01:55:45.000 That can happen.

01:55:46.000 Yeah, no.

01:55:47.000 I've seen it.

01:55:47.000 Trust me, I know.

01:55:48.000 And I know it's a tough gig. 0.99

01:55:50.000 And that's why, you know, I try to support comics because it's a fucking tough gig. 0.93

01:55:56.000 Yeah, it is a tough gig. 0.96

01:55:58.000 That's unfortunate, though.

01:55:59.000 I, uh, yeah.

01:56:02.000 I don't know what to say to that.

01:56:04.000 No, there's nothing to say.

01:56:05.000 I mean, I was just happy that you had him on the show and you were like talking to him.

01:56:10.000 I've known him forever.

01:56:11.000 Yeah, you were talking to him about this difficult conversation and I wanted to see how he dealt with it, you know, and he kind of avoided it or tried to avoid it.

01:56:25.000 Yeah, I don't exactly remember what we said.

01:56:27.000 You were talking about Trump being a spreader of disinformation or misinformation more so than other politicians.

01:56:41.000 And he wouldn't acknowledge that.

01:56:44.000 And he was just basically saying, all politicians do that.

01:56:47.000 And you were like, well, don't you think he does it more?

01:56:50.000 I wonder how people are going to feel about Trump after this is over.

01:56:53.000 Like, I wonder when the dust settles, what the perception is going to be.

01:56:57.000 You know, because perceptions change.

01:56:59.000 Like, when Bush was in office, initially, people hated him.

01:57:02.000 And then 9-11 came around, and people started to love him because he represented, like, he had a very high approval rating post-9-11 because it seemed like, Someone's going to take care of us and make us safe again.

01:57:13.000 And then towards the end of his administration, people hated him again. 0.97

01:57:16.000 They're like, you haven't done shit. 0.97

01:57:18.000 You've got to listen to these wars. 0.94

01:57:20.000 There was no weapons of mass destruction.

01:57:22.000 But now, as time has gone on, people go, well, I mean, that's one thing you could say about the difference between Bush and Trump, is that Bush, in hindsight, is a far more reasonable person.

01:57:34.000 And the way he looks at things is like...

01:57:39.000 Even the way he looks at people that have different opinions on things, the way he looks at Supreme Court rulings, the way he looked at all those things was much more presidential.

01:57:48.000 Yeah, well, so let's be clear.

01:57:52.000 All presidents kind of get a bump after they went to war, right?

01:57:56.000 And so he enjoyed that bump.

01:57:59.000 That's cool.

01:58:00.000 And then people start to say, wait a second, you lied to us about going to war, and they start to see him for what he was.

01:58:07.000 But Through it all, through all these eight years, Bush is a decent human being.

01:58:14.000 And so I think now we have a person who's not a decent human being, who makes fun of other people, who bullies other people, who...

01:58:28.000 He incites other people to do bad things.

01:58:32.000 So when you compare Bush to that sort of thing, Bush is still a decent person.

01:58:37.000 Do you remember when they found, there was a famous photograph of him sitting there with a taco bowl. 0.99

01:58:43.000 He's eating a taco bowl and it was like, right after he said something about Mexicans being rapists and shit, he's like, I love Hispanics, like eating a taco bowl. 0.99

01:58:51.000 I don't know. 1.00

01:58:51.000 Well, behind him was a drawer. 1.00

01:58:54.000 And in that drawer, the drawer was open.

01:58:56.000 And there was a bunch of Sudafed.

01:58:59.000 But there was the European Sudafed.

01:59:02.000 With the real Sudafedrin in it.

01:59:05.000 Yes. 1.00

01:59:05.000 But there was like a large supply of this shit. 1.00

01:59:08.000 Yeah, yeah. 1.00

01:59:09.000 What does that stuff do for you?

01:59:12.000 So...

01:59:12.000 Do you remember the picture?

01:59:15.000 Did you see the picture?

01:59:15.000 No, no, no.

01:59:16.000 Pull the picture up so you can see it.

01:59:18.000 But you asked what does Sudafep do for you.

01:59:21.000 Sudafep is like an amphetamine.

01:59:23.000 It's not...

01:59:24.000 It's one of the building blocks to this structure.

01:59:27.000 There it is.

01:59:28.000 So that box there...

01:59:30.000 Oh, wow.

01:59:32.000 Yeah.

01:59:33.000 Again, why would...

01:59:36.000 Is that the real one?

01:59:38.000 That's like...

01:59:39.000 People did the math to figure out what it was.

01:59:41.000 So that one there, that's not the real one.

01:59:43.000 It doesn't have Sudafed.

01:59:44.000 That one there has phenylephrine in it.

01:59:46.000 That's the replacement for Sudafed.

01:59:49.000 So that has Tylenol, caffeine, and Sudafed replacement.

01:59:54.000 Exactly.

01:59:58.000 They said it's not the real one?

02:00:00.000 Yeah, that...

02:00:02.000 So there was incorrect speculation that it was the European version of it?

02:00:06.000 Is that what it was?

02:00:07.000 Because I remember reading that people had speculated that it was the European version of it, which was more potent, and they were saying it's...

02:00:14.000 Pseudo-fed is pseudo-ephedrine.

02:00:19.000 Pseudo-ephedrine is like a building block to the amphetamines.

02:00:26.000 I don't know why Donald Trump would need that when he can just get prescribed amphetamines like other presidents and like our military.

02:00:34.000 I suspect he does take a stimulant.

02:00:37.000 I suspect he also has a sedative to sleep at night and those sorts of things.

02:00:42.000 And that would be reasonable.

02:00:44.000 Yeah.

02:00:45.000 I think that has always been the case, right?

02:00:48.000 Yeah.

02:00:48.000 I mean, that was Dr. Feelgood back in the Kennedy days, right?

02:00:51.000 Absolutely.

02:00:51.000 Yeah.

02:00:52.000 Absolutely.

02:00:52.000 I mean, I know if I have that job, I better have an ample supply of substances.

02:00:57.000 I mean, you have to.

02:00:59.000 I mean, you have to be up and you got to make sure you get sleep as well.

02:01:04.000 Yeah, the up part is interesting because he's obviously not fit, and he's 74 years old.

02:01:10.000 And meanwhile, the guy got COVID, and then after COVID, he had all this energy, and he's talking all this craziness on Twitter and law and order and all this...

02:01:19.000 But that is like...

02:01:21.000 And that's stimulant type of chatter, right?

02:01:25.000 Like many, many, many posts and tweets.

02:01:27.000 He can go on the campaign trail and have all this energy.

02:01:30.000 It could be, Joe.

02:01:31.000 I... You know, certainly, as a president, I suspect he has a stimulant.

02:01:38.000 And that would be normal.

02:01:41.000 But, you know, he probably has some cognitive stuff going on, too.

02:01:46.000 And he slurs sometimes.

02:01:51.000 And to me, that says stroke or something may have happened.

02:01:58.000 I think the slur, it seemed to me more like he was coming down off of something or he was on some sort of sedative that he over-prescribed or over-overdosed.

02:02:08.000 You know, you've seen that where he's like struggling.

02:02:11.000 It seems like he's exhausted.

02:02:14.000 That's not a sedative, man. 0.99

02:02:17.000 If you're really fucked up, though, if you take something and you're really kind of drowsy, but you're trying to keep it together for your speech, and God bless America, like you barely can get the words out because your mouth is failing you? 0.99

02:02:30.000 I don't know. 0.99

02:02:32.000 I'm only speculating here.

02:02:33.000 I don't really know, but that's how people talk when they're drunk.

02:02:39.000 Yeah, but why would he be on a sedative when he's doing a talk?

02:02:45.000 Maybe he got all ramped up and wanted to calm himself down, and maybe he's on this constant up and down sort of seesaw.

02:02:53.000 Could be.

02:02:53.000 That's certainly possible.

02:02:54.000 That's certainly possible, but I don't know.

02:02:56.000 I thought maybe, given his physical condition, I thought maybe he might have had some minor sort of strokes or something going on.

02:03:06.000 While he was having a speech?

02:03:08.000 No, no, no.

02:03:09.000 This is something that has happened.

02:03:11.000 And it shows up every now and then.

02:03:16.000 Just the blood flow to these certain regions maybe being obstructed or something.

02:03:22.000 Really?

02:03:24.000 I assumed it was a substance thing.

02:03:27.000 I don't know.

02:03:28.000 This behavior is just so strange, man.

02:03:31.000 I think it's something else. 1.00

02:03:33.000 Yeah, drugs be like, yo, don't blame us for that shit. 0.99

02:03:38.000 I had an idea for a show. 0.99

02:03:40.000 It was kind of a joke, but like called Ex-Presidents on Mushrooms, where you just get ex-presidents and you make them do like a mushroom ceremony, like a real like four to five gram dose.

02:03:52.000 Do you know Rick Dublin?

02:03:53.000 Yes.

02:03:54.000 Yeah, I've had Rick on a few times.

02:03:55.000 That's great, man, because Rick, this is what Rick got to, you know, like his, I think his Undergraduate thesis was to get all these leaders, world leaders, on MDMA, though.

02:04:08.000 Oh, yeah.

02:04:09.000 Well, he's done a lot of research with MDMA with soldiers in particular to combat PTSD. Yeah.

02:04:14.000 He had the same idea.

02:04:15.000 Great man.

02:04:16.000 He really is.

02:04:17.000 And that's who I'm trying to be like, actually.

02:04:19.000 Because Rick is always so forgiving and generous.

02:04:23.000 Yeah.

02:04:24.000 But I guess if I had a supply of MDMA, I'd be okay, too.

02:04:27.000 But...

02:04:29.000 That's the thing, right?

02:04:30.000 It's like you can't get it, even if you're a proponent of it and you're a responsible user.

02:04:38.000 Meanwhile, I've only had one MDMA experience.

02:04:42.000 It was very positive.

02:04:45.000 You've only had one MDMA experience?

02:04:47.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:04:48.000 God damn, man. 1.00

02:04:51.000 No, I'm just starting to feel badly for you. 1.00

02:04:54.000 That's like a guy who's only been laid once.

02:04:56.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:04:57.000 I got laid once.

02:04:57.000 It was great.

02:04:58.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:04:59.000 Yeah.

02:04:59.000 No, I've only had one.

02:05:00.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:05:01.000 Fuck, man. 1.00

02:05:02.000 That's remarkable. 1.00

02:05:05.000 No, I mean, you're married, too, you know, so it's a great thing to do with your partner.

02:05:11.000 Oh, my God.

02:05:11.000 Yeah.

02:05:12.000 Yeah, it should be something that you can just get, right?

02:05:16.000 You know, especially like a pure form of it, so you know exactly what you're getting.

02:05:20.000 I got an idea, man.

02:05:21.000 You have an idea.

02:05:22.000 Yeah.

02:05:23.000 We should take your show on the road.

02:05:26.000 To where?

02:05:27.000 Spain.

02:05:28.000 Oh, somewhere illegal.

02:05:30.000 Spain.

02:05:32.000 Colombia.

02:05:34.000 And all of these places where they test the substances.

02:05:38.000 And we'll do a tour of these substances.

02:05:41.000 Do a tour of substances.

02:05:43.000 That's something we could do.

02:05:44.000 We could do a different show.

02:05:46.000 Like a different kind of show.

02:05:47.000 Like do a specific series of these things.

02:05:51.000 Just to experience things that I haven't experienced before.

02:05:53.000 Yeah, because all of these people know you, and so it'll be a big fanfare that you're doing, but we should actually do that, man.

02:06:06.000 Well, we could do that post-pandemic, once everything sort of lightens up.

02:06:10.000 I've done a lot of shows high, obviously.

02:06:12.000 I've done a lot of shows drunk.

02:06:15.000 I've done a couple shows on mushrooms.

02:06:19.000 And you were cool?

02:06:21.000 Afterwards, I mean, you look at it and you'd be like, oh yeah, that's...

02:06:24.000 Yeah, me and Post Malone did one on Mushrooms.

02:06:27.000 That was fun. 0.97

02:06:28.000 We were silly. 0.96

02:06:29.000 But it just got really silly. 0.97

02:06:31.000 It was one of those shows.

02:06:32.000 It was very happy.

02:06:33.000 It was a very happy show. 0.99

02:06:34.000 But it was very, very silly. 0.83

02:06:36.000 And how were the viewers? 0.89

02:06:38.000 Were they like, cool?

02:06:39.000 Oh yeah, we had a good time.

02:06:41.000 I think we were honest about it on the show, too.

02:06:43.000 I think we talked about it.

02:06:44.000 Yeah, I think if we do it...

02:06:48.000 Don't tell anybody that what we're on or that we're on anything.

02:06:52.000 Oh, okay.

02:06:53.000 And then you just see what people say.

02:06:56.000 Yes.

02:06:56.000 Because we want to see if they even notice.

02:07:03.000 Right.

02:07:04.000 Maybe we can call the show Guess What We're On.

02:07:09.000 Yeah, and placebo is a possibility.

02:07:14.000 Sure, we could do some shows straight.

02:07:17.000 We'd do a tour of like six different places.

02:07:20.000 Man, that would be great.

02:07:22.000 It's not a bad idea.

02:07:23.000 And that would go a long way to alleviating misconceptions or preconceived notions that people have about what things do and what they don't do. 0.96

02:07:34.000 Yeah, that'll be a motherfucking community service. 0.96

02:07:38.000 That really would be. 0.98

02:07:39.000 It would be in a way, right?

02:07:40.000 Yeah.

02:07:41.000 What do you think about Iboga and Ibogaine?

02:07:45.000 Because that's something that a lot of people turn into.

02:07:48.000 Yeah, I really like the enthusiasm because they're trying to help people and it worked.

02:07:58.000 For a lot of the proponents.

02:08:00.000 And so I like that enthusiasm.

02:08:03.000 And so I'm all for it.

02:08:05.000 I support what they're trying to do on the one hand.

02:08:10.000 But on the other hand, I just don't believe, based on the evidence, that There's a magic bullet, because people use it to cure drug addiction.

02:08:23.000 And there's no simple magic bullet like that.

02:08:29.000 But if people think so, and they're not harming anybody, fine.

02:08:38.000 Why not?

02:08:39.000 I think it's ruthlessly introspective, right?

02:08:44.000 And I think that's one of the things about Ibogaine that people talk about.

02:08:47.000 And I think that when people get to examine their life and examine the whys, like as you were saying before, that maybe it's not really the substance.

02:08:56.000 Maybe it's something that they're trying to squash in their past or something they haven't really come to terms with.

02:09:05.000 I think you're right.

02:09:06.000 We think about ayahuasca from this perspective.

02:09:10.000 Some people feel that way.

02:09:12.000 Mushrooms as well.

02:09:13.000 Mushrooms, of course.

02:09:14.000 Of course, mushrooms.

02:09:16.000 And that's a good thing.

02:09:18.000 That's a good thing.

02:09:22.000 Some of us are just introspective anyway.

02:09:25.000 We live in our heads.

02:09:29.000 And other people need a little more help to get there.

02:09:32.000 But it's a good thing.

02:09:33.000 It's a good thing to do it.

02:09:35.000 So I'm for it.

02:09:36.000 Yeah, I think that is oftentimes the case with people that I've talked to that have used mushrooms to quit things.

02:09:44.000 Like I know people use mushrooms and quit cigarettes.

02:09:47.000 And when they smoked cigarettes their whole life and then they did mushrooms once and they're like, what am I doing with my body?

02:09:53.000 And why am I so distracted?

02:09:56.000 Why am I distracting myself with this?

02:09:59.000 Unhealthy stuff and like what is this about this behavior pattern that I've sort of fallen into grips with No, I mean I know people who have done MDMA to stop using alcohol, you know and that sort of thing and it's like Yeah, it helps people to have a different perspective It helps them to see sometimes the inferiority of the compound that they've been abusing Yeah,

02:10:25.000 I think it's all good man See, that's what I wanted to get to you about with rehab centers, because for people that talk about drugs, most of the discussion is about people where the drugs get away from them,

02:10:41.000 or they find themselves in a situation where they find themselves addicted to these drugs.

02:10:46.000 And it is rare that we discuss the real root cause, psychologically, of what's leading them into these self-destructive behavior patterns.

02:11:00.000 And Ibogaine seems to help that, but there's no Ibogaine rehab centers in America.

02:11:07.000 It's illegal here.

02:11:08.000 Well, also the people now, the people who are proponents, they too are very important in this whole mix.

02:11:19.000 They wouldn't have cameras there doing that sort of stuff.

02:11:22.000 And they are trying to understand and help people understand what's really going on in their life.

02:11:27.000 So that's really important, the therapists.

02:11:30.000 Those therapists are really important.

02:11:33.000 Or guides or whatever people call them.

02:11:36.000 They're really important.

02:11:38.000 They can play a really important role.

02:11:41.000 Understanding that it's not just the drug that you are dealing with.

02:11:47.000 There are some other deeper issues.

02:11:49.000 And I think if people are starting from there, thinking about those deeper issues, then they have a chance.

02:11:56.000 But too often, our sort of treatment centers Man, they're in it for the loot, for the money.

02:12:03.000 And one shoe fits all.

02:12:06.000 And I don't think that's very helpful for many people.

02:12:12.000 Yeah, and it's just...

02:12:15.000 I've never been to rehab.

02:12:17.000 I've never needed to go to rehab.

02:12:18.000 But the people that I know...

02:12:20.000 That have been, they go, it takes a long time, they're often there for months, and they come out, and many of them start using again.

02:12:29.000 Yes, you probably know wealthy people if it takes a long time, so we want to keep them there, so make sure that we milk their insurance.

02:12:35.000 Is that what it is?

02:12:36.000 Well, I mean, I did some training in Hazelden.

02:12:40.000 You know Hazelden?

02:12:41.000 No.

02:12:41.000 It's like the treatment center.

02:12:43.000 It's in Minnesota.

02:12:46.000 It's Betty Ford kind of this.

02:12:48.000 You've heard of that.

02:12:50.000 So, yeah.

02:12:53.000 You have these long treatment stays.

02:12:57.000 Can't let you go.

02:12:58.000 You might start using again, Carl.

02:13:00.000 That's right.

02:13:01.000 All of that sort of stuff.

02:13:03.000 You're not ready to leave yet, Carl.

02:13:04.000 Don't know if you should be What's the science behind it?

02:13:17.000 I'm sure you've examined this.

02:13:19.000 When you go to a rehab center, what does it take to run a rehabilitation center?

02:13:25.000 How much knowledge do you have to have about these drugs and what to do and how to get someone clean? 0.97

02:13:30.000 That's a damn good question.

02:13:31.000 So typically they may have a psychiatrist or psychologist who are trained in substance use disorders. 0.96

02:13:40.000 And then the staff, they don't have much training typically.

02:13:45.000 And our training in substance use disorder at the medical, like physicians and psychologists, That training is not very good.

02:13:57.000 When you say not very good, in what way?

02:14:02.000 For example, we are not really trained to think about if somebody is smoking crack and they have a crack addiction.

02:14:11.000 So we focus a lot on crack.

02:14:14.000 As opposed to like, oh, this guy is from somewhere Ohio where they lost all of their jobs and his wife left him and his children no longer speaks to him.

02:14:32.000 So it's like crack is not the problem.

02:14:35.000 But...

02:14:37.000 We're getting paid because you have a crack use disorder.

02:14:41.000 And so it has to be the problem.

02:14:44.000 And my specialty is looking at crack, not looking at employment and what employment does to a male in modern American society who had been accustomed to being the number one breadwinner in his home.

02:15:05.000 None of that is in the training of these people who are providing therapy.

02:15:12.000 And so that's what I mean, they're not very well trained.

02:15:15.000 They're only focusing on the substance.

02:15:18.000 That's it, because that's all we're trained about.

02:15:20.000 If you ask them, like, what does dopamine, I mean, what does cocaine do to dopamine?

02:15:25.000 Oh, they can tell you that inside out, you know, but...

02:15:32.000 What are the impacts of a white male in his mid-40s losing his job that paid $150,000 and now the best job he can get pays about $12 an hour?

02:15:51.000 They don't know that.

02:15:53.000 And that's the far more important question.

02:15:56.000 Right.

02:15:57.000 Yeah.

02:15:58.000 How do you manage to get your mind right without just drowning your sorrows?

02:16:05.000 Absolutely.

02:16:06.000 Well, just if I'm going to provide treatment in that context with that person, The first thing I'm trying to do is how the hell do we help this guy get a job that he can feel like he's a productive member of our society again?

02:16:25.000 That's where we start.

02:16:27.000 Right.

02:16:27.000 So they have self-esteem again.

02:16:29.000 They feel like they're on the right path.

02:16:31.000 They don't feel the need to just try to escape.

02:16:33.000 Absolutely.

02:16:34.000 Just so they feel like they are human again.

02:16:40.000 I have a friend whose significant other had a substance abuse problem multiple times and she kept going into rehab and then getting out and cleaning up for a while and then going in again and eventually he couldn't take it anymore.

02:16:54.000 He had great things to say about her, she's a great girl, but she kept falling apart.

02:16:59.000 And he didn't know what to do.

02:17:01.000 He wasn't a guy who's had problems like that himself.

02:17:04.000 What do you say to a person like that who has a loved one who just keeps falling apart?

02:17:10.000 She would fall apart. 0.99

02:17:11.000 Apparently, I don't know her, but according to his description, she would fall apart and just start using like crazy and fuck up everything in her life. 1.00

02:17:22.000 Yeah, you know what relationships you and I both know.

02:17:28.000 You can be in a relationship with a person for a number of years and not really be honest with each other.

02:17:35.000 And so like that dynamic, I don't know.

02:17:38.000 But if I had this woman alone... 0.99

02:17:41.000 And try and figure out what's really going on.

02:17:44.000 That's different.

02:17:45.000 Because I don't know what kind of mistrust and how much damage has happened over the years in that relationship.

02:17:56.000 And I don't know how honest and open they are with each other.

02:18:00.000 Because people can be together for 30 years and not be open and honest.

02:18:04.000 It isn't also the issue that sometimes people aren't honest with themselves about why they're using.

02:18:09.000 They certainly...

02:18:10.000 I think people are honest with themselves.

02:18:14.000 They just don't share it with you.

02:18:17.000 You can't get away from yourself.

02:18:19.000 You really can't.

02:18:21.000 You can try and...

02:18:24.000 I see what you're saying.

02:18:25.000 Yeah.

02:18:26.000 They're just not expressing themselves honestly to other people.

02:18:29.000 Yeah, and some are more convincing than others and Being a human a decent human it's a complicated thing and the thing is is that we sometimes fail and Right.

02:19:02.000 Yeah, but that's always the narrative, right?

02:19:04.000 Like, oh, he started doing coke, and then the relationship fell apart.

02:19:08.000 Oh, he started, oh, they got hooked on, like, that's how a lot of people view drugs.

02:19:13.000 Because society has allowed them to, right?

02:19:16.000 Like, if you have a problem that you can't explain, throw it into the drug waste bin.

02:19:24.000 That explains it away.

02:19:25.000 And then you get sympathy and people say, yeah, I understand. 1.00

02:19:28.000 You need to leave that motherfucker. 1.00

02:19:29.000 Yeah, I get it. 1.00

02:19:30.000 And then it's like, you're not a bad person.

02:19:35.000 Drugs have functioned in that role for our society.

02:19:41.000 And I'm trying to take it out of that waste bin.

02:19:43.000 Hmm.

02:19:44.000 Yeah, and that's but it's maybe a way that we can look at things more clearly is to say Look at all the people that use drugs and don't have a problem.

02:19:55.000 Yeah, how come they don't get that?

02:19:57.000 Yeah, because people are in the closet, man.

02:19:59.000 Yeah, yeah, you know like all of these successful people are in the closet and it allows this Caricature of drug users as being this irresponsible degenerate.

02:20:15.000 Because you're not looking at Barack Obama who used cocaine.

02:20:20.000 You're not looking at him as a cocaine user.

02:20:22.000 Instead, you're looking at some guy on the corner who's ruined his life.

02:20:27.000 And it's like, wait a second.

02:20:30.000 Drugs didn't ruin Barack Obama and he used cocaine.

02:20:36.000 When you write a book like this, how do you balance out these ideas, your perceptions, your thoughts on these ideas, versus the common narrative?

02:20:52.000 Are you trying to convince people?

02:20:55.000 Are you trying to just express yourself in a way that you know is going to be controversial, but let me just do my best to explain the way I think about things?

02:21:03.000 Are you actively trying to sort of persuade people?

02:21:08.000 I'm trying to persuade people, but this is one of the reasons, man, I have so much respect for comedians. 0.99

02:21:16.000 So you can tell people some really difficult shit. 0.98

02:21:22.000 If you have a punch line, then they're able to hear it. 0.99

02:21:28.000 So as a scientist, how can you do the same thing?

02:21:32.000 How can you tell narratives and stories and teach at the same time?

02:21:38.000 And that's what I'm trying to do.

02:21:39.000 And I learned that...

02:21:41.000 I only recently learned this, that...

02:21:44.000 You have to be an artist.

02:21:46.000 And that's what artists do.

02:21:49.000 And so I'm still learning how to do that.

02:21:53.000 So I'm trying to use other people's stories.

02:21:56.000 But in this book, I'm using my story.

02:21:59.000 I'm saying, this is what I do.

02:22:02.000 You know, I use heroin.

02:22:04.000 I also publish a lot of scientific articles, scientific papers in scientific journals.

02:22:11.000 I have more than 100 of those papers, and they're hard to publish.

02:22:17.000 I publish several books.

02:22:19.000 I lecture all around the world.

02:22:21.000 I do all of these kind of things, but I'm a drug user.

02:22:24.000 So I'm trying to use my own stories to show people that what you've been told about drugs is wrong and what you think of a drug user, the image of a drug user that you have is wrong.

02:22:39.000 The typical drug user looks like me, except they're white, but they look like me.

02:22:45.000 And so if I can do that with my book, I hope it goes a long way in changing people's views.

02:22:58.000 Do you feel like in academia you're on your own?

02:23:01.000 Are there other people like you that are out there that are so bold and open about it?

02:23:04.000 Like so completely out of the closet as it were?

02:23:09.000 No, in academia nobody's out of the closet.

02:23:12.000 Isn't that weird? 0.98

02:23:15.000 Academe is a weird-ass place.

02:23:16.000 I don't know if you know it very well, but it's a weird place. 0.54

02:23:21.000 You know, I don't feel at home in Academe in some areas, but in other areas I do.

02:23:29.000 I mean, I love, like, getting high and reading, you know, or that's what I do, or going through the literature in 1897 to find out what they were saying about this.

02:23:44.000 This is what I... So, in terms of academe, I feel at home, because there are a lot of people like that in academe.

02:23:50.000 And when you say getting high, like, what do you get high on when you do that?

02:23:53.000 Oh, uh...

02:23:56.000 Certainly amphetamines, or if I want to do heroin too, I can do that.

02:24:01.000 Or just anything.

02:24:03.000 If I'm alone and I have all these ideas, racing.

02:24:09.000 And so I have to go back and read things that other people said.

02:24:14.000 To see if somebody else was saying, and typically somebody else was saying it, and it's not an original thought, but it's nice to know who said it and who published it.

02:24:26.000 So in academia, I feel very much at home there.

02:24:30.000 But being in my skin and being who I am out front about these things and being direct, I don't feel at home in academe.

02:24:41.000 But it's okay.

02:24:43.000 It's a nice living and I get access to smart kids who are enthusiastic, who want to change the world. 0.99

02:24:53.000 And I get to help them and they teach me shit all the time. 0.91

02:24:59.000 So it's a great place in that respect. 0.95

02:25:02.000 But the people, like my colleagues, that's not so great a lot of times.

02:25:08.000 But you deal with it.

02:25:11.000 That's just how...

02:25:12.000 Did you have colleges that are curious, like that maybe don't have a lot of experiences with drugs, but they see you like, how is this guy keeping it together?

02:25:19.000 Maybe I do have a misconceived idea about what drugs do to people.

02:25:26.000 Did you get them, like, dancing around the idea?

02:25:28.000 Like, Anderson Cooper's asking you about MBMA. Do you have other colleagues that are pulling you aside?

02:25:32.000 Like, say it, Carl.

02:25:33.000 Yeah, it's a lot more indirect.

02:25:35.000 Keep on pouring a little bit of cocaine.

02:25:37.000 No, they don't say that.

02:25:39.000 They're not that direct, but they are beating around the bush to try and figure out what's what.

02:25:46.000 um and then there are other ones who are using drugs and they're in the closet um and um but even those folks who are in the closet and using they're not really my people either um they're not very courageous that's another thing that marks academe there's a lot of sort of cowardly squirmy behavior stab you in the back behavior that happens that's That's disturbing about academia that you hear from people that are

02:26:16.000 professors, that there is a lot of stab-you-in-the-back behavior.

02:26:21.000 You would think that also with an occupation that has tenure, which is one of the weirdest things ever, weirdest positions ever, you can't get fired unless you do something horrible.

02:26:32.000 You would think, boy, that would encourage people to be courageous.

02:26:36.000 No.

02:26:37.000 You have to think about the people who are attracted to academe.

02:26:41.000 A lot of these people were considered nerds.

02:26:45.000 I mean, not the sort of popular nerds where people put on a pair of glasses and say that they're a nerd.

02:26:50.000 These people were like really alone with their books and they weren't very popular and they got picked on.

02:26:59.000 And they learned how to fight in a different way.

02:27:04.000 They learn how to fight with their words or with some other sort of clever, indirect method that could not be identified with them, so their fingerprints are not on it.

02:27:20.000 You know, all of this, so it's what you would expect.

02:27:25.000 It's how they fight.

02:27:28.000 It's not like I'm accustomed to having grown up in the hood.

02:27:32.000 Like, if you have a beef, you deal with it straight on, you know?

02:27:37.000 You get in a fight, and then it's settled.

02:27:39.000 You lose sometimes, you win sometimes, but it's settled, and the beef is over.

02:27:44.000 Whereas in academe, you don't even know sometimes that people have a beef with you, and next thing you know, you're not getting this, or you're having this taken away, and you don't even know what happened.

02:27:58.000 So, it is what it is.

02:28:01.000 That's one of the really unfortunate aspects about not being socially accepted when you're younger, is that for a lot of those guys, it kind of sticks in their craw.

02:28:08.000 Yeah, that's the thing that's really harmful, where...

02:28:12.000 It's like, yeah, you were abused.

02:28:15.000 I mean, people picked on you as a child.

02:28:17.000 That was wrong.

02:28:19.000 But you can't undo it by doing it to somebody else.

02:28:23.000 Yes, that is a problem.

02:28:25.000 And that's one of the things that I find most distasteful about social media.

02:28:29.000 I see some people that I know personally on social media, and I know that they...

02:28:35.000 Did not have a good social upbringing.

02:28:37.000 I know that they were picked on. 0.84

02:28:39.000 I know they were abused and Even comedians and then I see them being mean and shitty and piling on and acting like bullies Yeah, and just diving I'm saying the most ruthless shit about people and I know that they're doing it because someone did it to them and they still feel like they haven't they haven't balanced their account and As it were, 0.95

02:29:02.000 you know, in terms of like what the world did to them versus what they want to do to the people that they think represent what the world did to them. 0.89

02:29:09.000 No, absolutely.

02:29:10.000 And that's the thing that I find abhorrent as well.

02:29:12.000 And we have a lot of that in academe.

02:29:16.000 And I was recently the chair of my department.

02:29:22.000 And one of the reasons I took the job was Was so that I could maybe shape the environment and shape the ethos.

02:29:34.000 Boy, was I wrong. 1.00

02:29:37.000 They kicked my ass. 1.00

02:29:39.000 I mean, just straight up. 1.00

02:29:40.000 It's like they were just a lot more sophisticated than me in that game.

02:29:47.000 They were a lot more sophisticated.

02:29:48.000 Well, you weren't trying to play the game at all.

02:29:50.000 You were just being yourself, right?

02:29:52.000 Yeah, and I thought I had good motives.

02:29:56.000 I thought that I was a good guy, all that sort of thing. 1.00

02:30:00.000 No, but they kicked my ass. 1.00

02:30:01.000 What was it about? 1.00

02:30:02.000 What were the conflicts?

02:30:04.000 You know, trying to hire people, for example.

02:30:08.000 Trying to make our university more diverse, racially diverse.

02:30:14.000 I mean, we're in Harlem.

02:30:15.000 Columbia's in Harlem.

02:30:17.000 We have 4% black faculty in Harlem, Harlem Black USA. So just trying to bring in, for example, more black faculty.

02:30:32.000 And everybody's on board with this publicly.

02:30:36.000 Everybody's on your side.

02:30:38.000 And then you want to bring in people who are senior and independent and they have minds of their own.

02:30:47.000 And then they won't necessarily do what I want them to do because they can think for themselves.

02:30:53.000 That's a no-no.

02:30:54.000 That is a no-no.

02:30:56.000 You bring in people who are going to play along and who will keep the status quo.

02:31:05.000 Anyway, I thought I was doing what people wanted because they said that's what they wanted. 1.00

02:31:13.000 But again, that's my own stupidity. 1.00

02:31:16.000 That's on me. 1.00

02:31:17.000 That's really on me.

02:31:19.000 So it's the social game.

02:31:21.000 The social game was confusing to you because you come from a different place in terms of like, that's not how you approach people.

02:31:28.000 You know, I think about just an example about what happened in the country with the insurrection and Trump egging the people on.

02:31:38.000 So when I think about that in terms of academe, the people in academe, like people say Trump is like a gangster.

02:31:44.000 It's like, no, he's not. 1.00

02:31:45.000 The people in Academe are like gangsters because they do shit like that. 0.99

02:31:51.000 They have these people do these horrible acts and their fingerprints are nowhere on it. 1.00

02:31:58.000 You know what I'm saying?

02:31:59.000 So you can't trace it back to them because...

02:32:02.000 They know how to do this sort of thing.

02:32:04.000 And that's where they beat me at that game. 1.00

02:32:09.000 It's like, that's some real gangster shit. 0.99

02:32:12.000 And they showed me that I wasn't a gangster either. 0.99

02:32:18.000 It's an interesting world in that a lot of people that enter into the world of academia go straight from school.

02:32:26.000 They go straight from college.

02:32:28.000 They go to the university, get their PhD.

02:32:32.000 They're already involved in working in the school.

02:32:36.000 And then their ultimate goal is to transition from being a student to being a teacher without any world experience.

02:32:43.000 That's right.

02:32:44.000 Without ever escaping the bubble of academia.

02:32:47.000 It's a weird place.

02:32:49.000 That's an astute observation, man.

02:32:51.000 Because if we think about just what I do as a drug scientist, right?

02:32:56.000 That's what I did.

02:32:58.000 Here it is.

02:32:59.000 I go and study to get a PhD in drugs.

02:33:03.000 I got my PhD in 96. And I thought I was going to solve the crack crises or whatever.

02:33:14.000 The only world experience I had was I did four years in the military.

02:33:19.000 And again, I was only 17 to 21. Not really any world experience because I had the cocoon of the military protecting me.

02:33:27.000 So no real world experience.

02:33:31.000 And now I'm this like big drug researcher.

02:33:38.000 And no real world experience about how these things work in the real world.

02:33:43.000 But I'm considered an expert.

02:33:45.000 And I've published all of these papers and I've done this sort of stuff in terms of the scientific community.

02:33:54.000 And then it took me...

02:33:57.000 I didn't realize I really didn't know anything about drugs until after I was 40 years old.

02:34:05.000 Although I had already published dozens of papers, gotten multi-million dollar grants, other types of awards, and I'm considered just expert.

02:34:16.000 But like you said, we go from college basically into the academy and And now you're this scientist or whatever.

02:34:26.000 No really, no world experience.

02:34:29.000 That's what we have in our sort of cadre of experts in many of our sort of spaces, certainly in the world of drug addiction.

02:34:40.000 Yeah, it seems to be a prerequisite.

02:34:43.000 Like, I just would think I would like, in a perfect world, people that are telling me about whatever it is.

02:34:50.000 Like, I have a joke where I say the people that hate marijuana the most need it the most.

02:34:55.000 Yeah.

02:34:56.000 And it's really true.

02:34:57.000 I mean, there's a lot of experts that really don't understand the effects.

02:35:05.000 Absolutely.

02:35:06.000 If they did, they would go, like, what do you think happens?

02:35:09.000 Exactly.

02:35:09.000 What I want to say to people, what do you think happens when people smoke pot?

02:35:12.000 Do you think it makes you crazy?

02:35:14.000 It ruins your life?

02:35:16.000 Why do you think so many people enjoy it then?

02:35:18.000 What is going on?

02:35:21.000 And they can talk about it from a pharmacological perspective, from a biophysical perspective.

02:35:27.000 But they really don't have real world experience.

02:35:29.000 Right.

02:35:29.000 An experiential sort of perspective.

02:35:33.000 You're absolutely right.

02:35:35.000 One of the things that happened to me as a result of traveling all over the world is that I met this schizophrenia researcher.

02:35:45.000 His name is Paul Fletcher.

02:35:47.000 He's at Cambridge.

02:35:49.000 And he wanted to experience schizophrenia.

02:35:53.000 He's treating these people and he wanted to really know because of this critique that you just laid out.

02:36:00.000 And he's the only person who I know in that area who's done this.

02:36:07.000 He did like ketamine to try and reproduce the experience because he heard that that was like reproducing the, would reproduce the experience.

02:36:16.000 Of course it doesn't, but this is what people have said.

02:36:20.000 Our animal models use ketamine for that reason, but it doesn't.

02:36:25.000 But he was curious enough to try to figure out what schizophrenia, people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia, he tried to figure out what they were experiencing.

02:36:37.000 I don't know if he figured that out from this sort of experiential perspective.

02:36:44.000 But what I do know is that if I ever had a relative who had schizophrenia, I would send him to Paul Fletcher.

02:36:53.000 Because his perspective on it, it really respects the person who has this diagnosis.

02:37:02.000 And it offers them the greatest amount of hope that I have seen in that area.

02:37:09.000 And it would be good if other scientists in these areas, drugs, whatever it is, would also seek to try to figure out the experience that their patients are going through.

02:37:24.000 Yeah.

02:37:25.000 It'd be almost like learning martial arts without ever sparring.

02:37:28.000 Yeah, or coaching basketball without really playing.

02:37:35.000 Yeah, under pressure.

02:37:36.000 Is there anything that mimics schizophrenia?

02:37:40.000 Is there a commonly thought of substance that mimics schizophrenia?

02:37:47.000 They have suggested large doses of amphetamines over periods of time with sleep deprivation, paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't know if it really does.

02:38:02.000 I mean, all of this stuff...

02:38:04.000 I am now questioning, so I don't know.

02:38:07.000 I mean, at one time, if you would ask me that question maybe five years ago, I would have said amphetamines, but I don't know now.

02:38:14.000 Schizophrenia is an odd one, too, right?

02:38:15.000 Because doesn't it affect somewhere in the neighborhood of 1% of the population?

02:38:19.000 Yeah.

02:38:19.000 That's a lot of people.

02:38:20.000 It's a lot of people, but I have a lot more hope about schizophrenia after having met Paul Fletcher, just in terms of...

02:38:31.000 I don't want to bastardize his sort of model of thinking about it, and so I may not have all the details right, but I would just say, simply try to explain about...

02:38:43.000 You and I, we go through the world, everybody, we have these theories about how the world works.

02:38:49.000 Like, you smile, I have a theory about what that means, right?

02:38:55.000 And so, oh, Joe likes me or he's happy today, whatever.

02:39:00.000 And then I'm right because you tell me that, whatever.

02:39:04.000 Somebody who's diagnosed with schizophrenia, they also have these models that they're testing out.

02:39:08.000 And so their model might be like, when you smile, they think that you're angry or whatever.

02:39:16.000 Or you're plotting against them.

02:39:18.000 Yes.

02:39:18.000 And their model is just wrong.

02:39:21.000 I mean, it's just like they're bumping up against these wrong answers.

02:39:29.000 And then when they get more wrong answers, It causes even more stress.

02:39:35.000 And that's very anxiety-provoking.

02:39:38.000 And then all of that is playing into this.

02:39:40.000 It's like, first of all, your models are off, and now you're just getting this increased anxiety.

02:39:45.000 And so I think that's how his model sees it.

02:39:49.000 So that means that it's okay, as long as we let people understand that Don't worry if your motto is getting it wrong.

02:39:59.000 It doesn't mean that something's wrong with you.

02:40:03.000 It could be maybe we have it wrong in our society and you might have a better way of thinking about this.

02:40:13.000 As opposed to it being one way.

02:40:17.000 There might be multiple ways of thinking about solving these problems that humans solve throughout their day.

02:40:24.000 And I think that's how he thinks of it.

02:40:30.000 And it's a model of hope for me because...

02:40:36.000 You lessen the anxiety among the patients, and much of the problems deal with this anxiety of people telling them that they're incompetent.

02:40:46.000 And you know how that is, how that feels as an adult, somebody telling you that you're incompetent.

02:40:52.000 It's like, how can you tell me I'm incompetent?

02:40:54.000 So it exacerbates whatever problems they might initially have and makes them far worse.

02:40:58.000 Exactly.

02:40:59.000 Yeah, there's also a thing that seems to happen.

02:41:01.000 I've only known a few people that are schizophrenic, but it's a disturbing thing when they think that everybody's against them.

02:41:09.000 Yes.

02:41:26.000 Have anybody comforting them.

02:41:28.000 Yes.

02:41:28.000 And we need that.

02:41:29.000 We all need that.

02:41:30.000 Absolutely.

02:41:31.000 And I think particularly people with a slippery version of reality probably need that more than most.

02:41:38.000 Yeah.

02:41:38.000 When you say reality, it might be multiple realities.

02:41:43.000 And that's the thing that we need people to understand.

02:41:47.000 Yeah.

02:41:48.000 It's okay.

02:41:51.000 Your reality just might be different from theirs, but not to the point where you have a different reality and that you're allowed to abuse people.

02:42:01.000 So I want to be clear because I know there are some people out here saying something about alternative facts.

02:42:07.000 I don't mean it like where you manipulate people.

02:42:09.000 I mean it for people who are struggling Like these people with schizophrenia, just to help lessen their anxiety.

02:42:18.000 Yeah, so in terms of marijuana, particularly high doses of marijuana, particularly edible marijuana, could really seriously exacerbate someone who has...

02:42:28.000 Who's kind of hanging on barely anyway and then boom you eat an edible.

02:42:32.000 Absolutely. 1.00

02:42:33.000 You're fucked. 1.00

02:42:34.000 So someone like Alex would say that person's schizophrenia was brought on by marijuana. 1.00

02:42:39.000 Whereas I think you and I would probably agree they were more likely inclined towards schizophrenia anyway.

02:42:46.000 And the high dose of marijuana pushed them over the air.

02:42:50.000 All the evidence says what you just said.

02:42:54.000 I mean, so when you look at the evidence where people have done all of these studies, folks who didn't have these predispositions, marijuana doesn't cause people to be schizophrenic or have a psychotic disorder.

02:43:10.000 Right.

02:43:10.000 But it certainly can precipitate or exacerbate psychosis in people who are predisposed.

02:43:23.000 So what I was going to get to was, do you think that maybe for people that have this predisposition towards schizophrenia, they should probably avoid psychoactive substances or avoid something that radically perturbs their version of reality?

02:43:40.000 They probably should avoid cannabis, right?

02:43:45.000 I don't want to say avoid everything because...

02:43:49.000 Is there anything that they could maybe use that maybe would help them?

02:43:57.000 Yeah, so I spent a little time working in a heroin clinic in Geneva.

02:44:02.000 And so they give out heroin to these patients twice a day, every day.

02:44:08.000 How do they give it to them?

02:44:08.000 Intravenous or oral, however the patient wants it.

02:44:11.000 But a lot of intravenous heroin users.

02:44:14.000 And it's all, you know, sanitized setting, hospital setting or clinic setting twice a day.

02:44:23.000 Many of these people have psychotic disorders like diagnosed with schizophrenia.

02:44:31.000 And heroin helps.

02:44:34.000 Calms them.

02:44:35.000 Yeah, with many of these symptoms, and they feel better, even more so in some cases than the antipsychotic.

02:44:43.000 Really?

02:44:44.000 Yeah, I talk about this in the new book, in fact.

02:44:47.000 So I don't want to have this blanket statement that they should avoid psychoactive substances because...

02:44:54.000 Some might actually be helpful.

02:44:58.000 And some other people have tried other drugs.

02:45:04.000 One psychiatrist in the Netherlands gave his patients amphetamines, and he swears that it works.

02:45:13.000 But that has to be researched out.

02:45:18.000 But we'll see.

02:45:20.000 But I know cannabis for sure.

02:45:23.000 I wouldn't do that one.

02:45:24.000 You wouldn't do cannabis and perhaps maybe not high levels of amphetamines as well either, right?

02:45:30.000 I don't know.

02:45:31.000 You know, I would have to slowly titrate and see whether or not it worked or whether or not people felt better.

02:45:41.000 So this really sort of highlights the need for not just like long-term study of drugs and drug use, but also a place where someone can go where they can get real expert advice.

02:45:57.000 Yeah.

02:45:57.000 And maybe even a real source, a pure source of these drugs.

02:46:02.000 And if that happened, do you think that the world would have just a totally different understanding of what drugs are and do and what their potentials are?

02:46:09.000 Yes, I do.

02:46:10.000 I think a lot of people around the world have a different understanding.

02:46:16.000 Outside of the United States.

02:46:17.000 Outside of the United States.

02:46:19.000 It's just that we have such a big microphone that we influence a lot of countries and their perspectives and their education of their physicians and psychiatrists.

02:46:33.000 But that's what I'm trying to do.

02:46:35.000 I'm trying to change it.

02:46:36.000 I'm trying to open up minds in my field and abroad.

02:46:42.000 Another problem with things being illegal is that it props up organized crime.

02:46:48.000 This is a giant problem with the fact that...

02:46:52.000 Look, that's what they had in Prohibition.

02:46:54.000 It propped up the mob.

02:46:56.000 I mean, that's really what brought up the Mafia is the fact that they made so much money off of selling booze.

02:47:01.000 Yeah.

02:47:02.000 And now we're dealing with a situation where it's really just organized crime.

02:47:06.000 It's bringing these drugs into the country. 0.93

02:47:08.000 Yep.

02:47:10.000 So I have a friend who was a big time dealer back in the 70s and the 80s and So he talks a lot about how the dealers had this sort of pride in their products.

02:47:29.000 And then when the sort of real gangsters got in the field, they didn't really care about the quality of their product.

02:47:37.000 They just wanted to move weight like a Walmart. 0.87

02:47:40.000 They just like cheap products.

02:47:42.000 The quality doesn't really matter.

02:47:44.000 Just move product.

02:47:46.000 And so...

02:47:49.000 For me, that's the bigger concern, that when the big guys get involved in this sort of field, the quality goes down.

02:48:00.000 And that means that the consumer is being put at greater risk.

02:48:06.000 I don't mind people making money illegally.

02:48:10.000 That's fine.

02:48:11.000 I mean, you do what you do to take care of your family, especially if you're making people happy with your product.

02:48:18.000 If you have some pride in the quality, that's fine.

02:48:23.000 So I'm not upset, per se, that we have these cartels controlling the market.

02:48:30.000 I'm more upset that they don't care about the quality.

02:48:36.000 I get it.

02:48:37.000 It's a funny perspective. 1.00

02:48:39.000 The problem with these cartels is not the violence and the murder and all the money and the fucking narco songs while they're holding gold-plated AK-47s. 0.99

02:48:47.000 The problem is they don't have any pride in their meth. 0.99

02:48:51.000 Well, Joe, you know you say it like that.

02:48:55.000 But you know the violence and the crime goes away when you take away the intensity of the law enforcement.

02:49:03.000 All that goes away.

02:49:05.000 And so we are the cause of the violence.

02:49:10.000 We certainly are in regards to Mexico.

02:49:13.000 It's us, the folks who are saying more law enforcement, more law enforcement.

02:49:18.000 All you're doing is putting law enforcement at risk and also other people at risk.

02:49:23.000 It's like Alright, let's control this market.

02:49:26.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:49:28.000 There's a show called Trafficked.

02:49:30.000 And how do you say Maria's last name from Trafficked, Jamie?

02:49:35.000 What's the correct pronunciation?

02:49:40.000 Van Zeller.

02:49:42.000 Van Zeller.

02:49:43.000 She's brilliant.

02:49:44.000 And she runs a show where she went to Colombia, went with the people that were making the cocaine, like literally saw them make it, asked them about it, walked with them when they carried it on their back, walked with them.

02:50:00.000 And she's trying to like...

02:50:01.000 Find out like how all these things are made and where all these things come from and when you you see it from the source and you see like the dangers these people have to go through in order to get this stuff to America and you realize like how everything is being made And that all of this is just because it's illegal in the United States.

02:50:21.000 All of it.

02:50:22.000 And if it was legal in the United States, there would be a legitimate business running it.

02:50:26.000 They would have standards and unions.

02:50:28.000 It would be just like a Budweiser plant.

02:50:30.000 Remember Laverne and Shirley used to work at the...

02:50:32.000 Milwaukee plant?

02:50:33.000 Yeah, I mean, that was a drug den. 0.54

02:50:36.000 Trust me, I know.

02:50:38.000 They were making drugs, but it was so wholesome and American. 0.81

02:50:41.000 That's right.

02:50:41.000 So normal.

02:50:42.000 Look at them there, just making a little beer.

02:50:44.000 No big deal. 1.00

02:50:45.000 They're getting people fucked up, and those guys are out there beating their wives. 0.99

02:50:48.000 I mean, that is... 1.00

02:50:49.000 Wait, wait, hold on.

02:50:51.000 I'm joking around.

02:50:53.000 I'm joking.

02:50:53.000 I enjoy beer, and I don't beat my wife.

02:50:55.000 But this is the way we have these preconceived notions about legality versus illegality.

02:51:01.000 Like, if something's legal, it must be good.

02:51:03.000 If something's illegal, it must be bad.

02:51:06.000 And the fact that the use and the demand has not gone down because of illegal...

02:51:11.000 illegalization.

02:51:13.000 That's right.

02:51:13.000 No, it's...

02:51:14.000 It's as high as it's ever been.

02:51:15.000 People are doing plenty of coke.

02:51:17.000 Absolutely.

02:51:17.000 And they're getting it in in weird, sneaky ways, and people putting their lives at risk.

02:51:21.000 And the people that are being victimized are the people that are so poor that they have to work as mules, and they have to put their lives in danger and try to sneak across the border with backpacks full of coke. 0.66

02:51:31.000 And it's really crazy.

02:51:32.000 Absolutely.

02:51:33.000 It's crazy.

02:51:33.000 That's right.

02:51:34.000 And the people who are getting caught are the low-level people, while the people who are really making the money, they're not...

02:51:39.000 Putting themselves at that kind of risk, so absolutely.

02:51:41.000 It's really, really fascinating how this problem has persisted for so many decades, and yet there's no real solutions, and there's no real progress.

02:51:50.000 Oh, there are solutions.

02:51:51.000 But I mean, solutions that are being implemented.

02:51:54.000 Yeah, I know because...

02:51:56.000 Too many people are benefiting.

02:51:58.000 And so when we think about this sort of drug war, if you will, law enforcement benefits, we spend $40 billion a year on this kind of thing.

02:52:11.000 Most of the money goes to law enforcement benefits.

02:52:14.000 The prison industry, the businesses that have been built up around that, like phone companies, all of them, they make a lot of money from this.

02:52:24.000 Politicians, they look like they are really serving their population because they're bringing law enforcement jobs or whatever.

02:52:33.000 They're all benefiting.

02:52:35.000 And then the big players in the drug game, they're benefiting because the more regulation, the less likely their competition will be able to get in the game, so they keep the game locked down.

02:52:46.000 There are a number of people who are benefiting.

02:52:49.000 Parents don't have to educate their kids about drugs.

02:52:52.000 That's one less thing they have to do, so they feel like they're benefiting.

02:52:58.000 Me, as a scientist, I have to think about my own role.

02:53:02.000 I got multi-million dollar grants to study the drug problem.

02:53:08.000 I benefited from this whole thing.

02:53:12.000 So a lot of people are benefiting.

02:53:15.000 That's why we continue it.

02:53:17.000 And we oftentimes don't talk about all of us who have benefited from this.

02:53:21.000 Yeah, it's a weird, weird conundrum that doesn't seem to have a way out.

02:53:29.000 There's a way out?

02:53:29.000 I know, but I'm saying no one's proposed this way out.

02:53:33.000 No one's implementing this way out.

02:53:35.000 It's just, you know, if you were in law enforcement, if you work for the DEA, and you're looking at this, you're like, Jesus Christ, this is not going away.

02:53:42.000 I'm not putting a dent in this thing.

02:53:44.000 Well, I don't think you're looking at it like this.

02:53:46.000 You're looking at it like, Jesus Christ, I got a lot of overtime this week.

02:53:48.000 That's how I think you're looking at it.

02:53:50.000 I don't want to believe that.

02:53:53.000 Well, I'm sorry.

02:53:55.000 Well, Santa Claus ain't really...

02:53:57.000 Listen, that show Traffic showed us to me.

02:53:59.000 One of the things she did was she found out that a lot of the guns that are coming in to Mexico from the United States were being supplied by Los Angeles Police Department.

02:54:10.000 There was a guy who worked for the Los Angeles Police Department, was selling guns to this guy who was trafficking them, bringing them across the border.

02:54:18.000 Because you can go to Mexico easily.

02:54:20.000 The show is fantastic.

02:54:22.000 It's called Trafficked.

02:54:23.000 It's on Science Channel.

02:54:25.000 You've got to pull up a page of it so we can see it.

02:54:27.000 It's on regular TV? Yes.

02:54:30.000 She's so...

02:54:32.000 Nat Geo.

02:54:33.000 I'll check it out because, you know, I have avoided these shows because they glorify police action too often in these things.

02:54:43.000 Mariana Van Zeller. 0.96

02:54:44.000 I don't know why I always fuck up her name. 1.00

02:54:46.000 It's too exotic for my stupid mouth. 1.00

02:54:48.000 But that lady right there is so badass. 1.00

02:54:52.000 I'll check it out.

02:54:53.000 Watching the show made my hands sweat.

02:54:56.000 I was like, Jesus Christ.

02:54:57.000 I will check it out.

02:55:01.000 She's so courageous.

02:55:04.000 They look into all sorts of things being trafficked, whether it's cocaine, steroids, guns, all these different things.

02:55:13.000 But the disturbing part of the guns thing was knowing how easy it is to bring something into Mexico, because there's no real border checks to go through.

02:55:21.000 You just go through.

02:55:22.000 They don't care if you're going into Mexico.

02:55:24.000 Just coming out.

02:55:25.000 They're just filling up their trunk with AK-47s and guns and all kinds of ammo, and they're just bringing it over to Mexico.

02:55:32.000 Yeah, see, I wasn't aware of this.

02:55:34.000 The show is nuts, but Mariana going to Colombia, like literally going to the actual labs in the jungle where they make the cocaine, watching them make the cocaine...

02:55:47.000 Seeing them process it with all these chemicals, and then put it in backpacks, and then she hikes out with them.

02:55:53.000 It takes like a day to hike it out.

02:55:54.000 She hiked out with them with a coke.

02:55:56.000 It put her life in danger to do this.

02:55:58.000 Yeah, that's quite courageous of her, but she's also doing it for her ratings, too. 0.99

02:56:08.000 Well, she's a journalist. 0.94

02:56:10.000 She's an investigative journalist.

02:56:11.000 You could be cynical and say she's doing it for her ratings.

02:56:13.000 Yeah.

02:56:34.000 Good thing for you, there's an OxyContin store right next door.

02:56:38.000 And so they'd give them a prescription that's all they prescribed, and they would go right next door to the pain management center, and they would get their Oxys.

02:56:45.000 No, I get it.

02:56:46.000 And Florida was known for that.

02:56:48.000 I get it.

02:56:49.000 And what they have done, and they have made it difficult for people who are in legitimate pain to now get OxyContin or any other opioid-based pain medication, Based on the behavior, bad behavior of a few individuals.

02:57:05.000 And so, I mean, I get it.

02:57:07.000 I mean, I understand like, yep, those people were misbehaving.

02:57:11.000 My concern is that now they have ruined it for all of these people who are in legitimate pain.

02:57:20.000 Based on this sort of extreme outlier.

02:57:24.000 So that worries me.

02:57:28.000 But I will check it out.

02:57:30.000 I understand what you're saying.

02:57:31.000 There was a problem getting pills in Massachusetts.

02:57:35.000 And a lot of people were turning to straight heroin.

02:57:38.000 What they thought was straight heroin.

02:57:40.000 But a lot of the heroin was cut with fentanyl.

02:57:43.000 Yeah.

02:57:44.000 That seems to be a real problem.

02:57:45.000 Yeah, that's a real problem.

02:57:46.000 I mean, I worry about the heroin supply in the United States for that reason.

02:57:50.000 Like in New York, it's almost impossible to get heroin without fentanyl these days.

02:57:55.000 Really?

02:57:56.000 Yeah.

02:57:57.000 Is it because it's cheaper?

02:57:58.000 Is that what it is?

02:57:59.000 Yeah.

02:58:02.000 Think about the bulk of bringing cannabis into the country versus bringing cocaine.

02:58:08.000 It's the same sort of thing.

02:58:10.000 Now you don't have to have as much product.

02:58:13.000 And it's a lot more potent.

02:58:16.000 So that's just, it's easier for the traffickers to do.

02:58:21.000 Has any politician ever brought you in for a legitimate discussion about the potential methods that they could legalize these drugs?

02:58:29.000 I have not really talked to any politicians about drugs in the United States.

02:58:36.000 But in Brazil and other countries, Absolutely.

02:58:41.000 What do they say when you tell them that things should be legal?

02:58:45.000 They agree.

02:58:48.000 And they talk about the difficulties of changing public opinion.

02:58:56.000 Because, as you know, politicians don't lead.

02:58:58.000 They just kind of follow.

02:59:00.000 So the work is really done on the ground, convincing the population.

02:59:07.000 Like with cannabis.

02:59:09.000 It's not the politicians who are leading with legalizing cannabis.

02:59:13.000 It's the people.

02:59:14.000 So we have to do the work with the constituents.

02:59:18.000 And so that's what I'm trying to do.

02:59:22.000 But not one American politician has talked to me about drugs.

02:59:27.000 Not one.

02:59:28.000 Not one.

02:59:29.000 I find that quite incredible.

02:59:32.000 Like when I go to other countries, former president of Switzerland, for example, she's a dear friend.

02:59:42.000 Talk to her about drug policies all the time.

02:59:45.000 She agrees with my drug policy.

02:59:47.000 In fact, she's been out front trying to change drug policy. 1.00

02:59:52.000 Yeah.

02:59:53.000 Do you think it's just too radioactive politically in America right now?

02:59:58.000 Too many people have this preconceived notion of drugs being bad, addiction being a real problem, opiate scourge ruining the country that if you offer an alternative narrative, not enough people are going to buy it because too many people have already subscribed to what we just described.

03:00:13.000 And so it would be bad for you politically.

03:00:16.000 It certainly would be bad for you politically as a politician.

03:00:20.000 Yes.

03:00:21.000 And so you don't have to necessarily be out there saying that as a politician.

03:00:27.000 What you do is just try to get the best answers privately.

03:00:33.000 And then you figure out Because you have staff and you know how to move the population.

03:00:39.000 You figure out how to do these things without potentially committing political suicide.

03:00:46.000 But they don't even do that.

03:00:48.000 Because it's really not in their best interest.

03:00:53.000 I mean, the opioid crisis is like a political wet dream to these people.

03:01:00.000 Because they can offer solutions.

03:01:01.000 They can talk about it.

03:01:03.000 It's earnest.

03:01:04.000 They really care.

03:01:06.000 We have to do something.

03:01:08.000 I'm here to help.

03:01:09.000 That's right.

03:01:09.000 And then they don't have to talk about the fact that all those factories that left Ohio, those factories that left Maine, those factories that left West Virginia, they don't have to talk about that.

03:01:22.000 They can talk about the opioids.

03:01:24.000 Absolutely.

03:01:25.000 Yeah.

03:01:25.000 And that's the real problem.

03:01:28.000 All of those factories that left.

03:01:31.000 One thing I think you are doing, though, is because you're so brave about this and you're upfront and so honest about it and also, obviously, you have a deep knowledge of the subject, is you're getting this narrative out there and then more people are going to hear this and they're going to say to their friends,

03:01:50.000 you know, I was listening to Dr. Carl Hart and he has a different perspective.

03:01:55.000 You should listen to this.

03:01:56.000 You know what he's saying?

03:01:57.000 He does heroin sometimes.

03:01:59.000 I'm like, what?

03:02:00.000 He does heroin?

03:02:01.000 You know, like, these conversations are going to happen.

03:02:04.000 Whereas, like, that used to be the thing with pot. 0.99

03:02:06.000 Like, people would say, you smoke pot, what are you, a loser? 0.98

03:02:08.000 Like, no, just because some loser smoked pot doesn't mean pot makes you a loser. 0.99

03:02:13.000 Yeah, that's good. 0.98

03:02:15.000 That's a good SAT question.

03:02:17.000 Yeah. 0.99

03:02:17.000 Does pot make you a loser? 0.99

03:02:19.000 Or do some losers smoke pot? 1.00

03:02:21.000 A or B? Yeah, I mean, there's not a lot of people like you out there. 0.99

03:02:26.000 I really appreciate you.

03:02:27.000 I appreciate your courage, you know?

03:02:29.000 I appreciate what you do, man.

03:02:31.000 And I really appreciate you, like, giving me a place to, like, come and find my people.

03:02:38.000 The first time I came on the podcast, Kaz, you said...

03:02:41.000 Yeah, you like one of us.

03:02:42.000 And then I was like, I really understand what that means after having traveled around the world.

03:02:47.000 And people come up to me and say, yeah, I heard you on the Joe Rogan podcast.

03:02:51.000 And it's like, okay, I'm at home.

03:02:53.000 I said, all right, I'm good.

03:02:54.000 I'm good.

03:02:55.000 You are a reasonable person that's willing to discuss things for what they are.

03:02:59.000 That's what I mean.

03:03:00.000 And even though you're an academic, you got these long dreads.

03:03:03.000 You're a cool guy.

03:03:04.000 I feel like I can hang out with you.

03:03:05.000 There's a lot of academics I have on the show.

03:03:07.000 I'm like, nice to talk to you.

03:03:09.000 Thank you.

03:03:10.000 Bye.

03:03:11.000 I mean, they're great to talk to, but they're in their world, and that's where they live.

03:03:16.000 I feel you, because I'm there.

03:03:19.000 I mean, at work.

03:03:22.000 That's my life.

03:03:23.000 Yeah, that is your life.

03:03:24.000 But you're doing a great thing.

03:03:26.000 You really are.

03:03:27.000 Because this could go on forever without someone like you.

03:03:30.000 It really could.

03:03:31.000 I mean, the narrative that we all have bought into, including me, someone who hasn't done coke, hasn't done heroin, You get it in your head that everyone who uses it must be ruining their life.

03:03:44.000 And then you talk to you and you're like, no, it's wonderful.

03:03:47.000 And they're like, wait a minute.

03:03:48.000 And everybody who's listening to this right now is probably, a lot of people are like me.

03:03:53.000 When you first exposed me to these thoughts, I was like, hmm, okay, I have to rethink heroin use, which I never really thought I had to do before.

03:04:00.000 Yeah.

03:04:01.000 No, I'm glad you did, man.

03:04:03.000 I'm so happy you did.

03:04:04.000 And I hope other people do the same sort of thing.

03:04:07.000 And, you know, it's a lovely thing for me.

03:04:10.000 It's really good pressure because I'm out here as a heroin user and all other kinds of drug user.

03:04:16.000 So it means that I have to make sure that I am particularly responsible.

03:04:22.000 Because any negative thing that I do will be attributed to drugs.

03:04:27.000 And so I like that kind of pressure.

03:04:31.000 It makes me produce.

03:04:33.000 It makes sure I'm a better person.

03:04:36.000 All of those kinds of things.

03:04:38.000 Yeah.

03:04:38.000 Do you often have debates with people about these kind of things?

03:04:41.000 No, man. 0.99

03:04:42.000 I don't do that kind of shit. 0.99

03:04:43.000 I mean, I don't like that whole performance thing. 0.99

03:04:48.000 I mean, when I first came on this show, I remember I was talking really fast.

03:04:52.000 You were like, yo, this ain't like that five minute that you get on those shows.

03:04:58.000 Those CNN shows!

03:04:59.000 Yeah, you can chill, man.

03:05:01.000 Those are the worst! 1.00

03:05:12.000 I don't want to be there with some other idiot. 1.00

03:05:16.000 I don't want to do it. 0.99

03:05:18.000 If you give each of us 30 minutes to make a presentation or something, cool, but like us going back and forth, I'm not doing that kind of thing.

03:05:26.000 I understand.

03:05:27.000 Yeah.

03:05:28.000 Well, you don't have to.

03:05:30.000 Just get your word out.

03:05:32.000 The marketplace of ideas will decide whether or not people appreciate what you're saying, but I do.

03:05:36.000 I do very much so.

03:05:38.000 And your book's available right now, ladies.

03:05:40.000 Did you do an audio version of it?

03:05:41.000 I did it, man.

03:05:42.000 I did it myself.

03:05:43.000 Beautiful.

03:05:44.000 I'm glad you did it.

03:05:45.000 I hate when people hire an actor or a voice actor to do an audio version of their book when someone has no connection to the material.

03:05:52.000 But I gotta tell you, man, I came away with a dramatically higher opinion of actors. 0.98

03:06:05.000 I mean, it's some difficult shit. 0.90

03:06:08.000 I wrote every word in there and it was really hard to get the feel and the mood because when I was writing, I always had music and that always gets me to the place or some psychoactive substance. 0.98

03:06:25.000 So it gets me to the place.

03:06:28.000 But reading, I was just reading.

03:06:31.000 And then a lot of the book, too, is emotional.

03:06:36.000 And then you're in the studio with somebody you don't know.

03:06:40.000 And I want to cry.

03:06:41.000 And I am crying because some of the material...

03:06:45.000 It's deeply personal.

03:06:46.000 And then you got this person in the studio who's like, okay, you did that one wrong, you know, and don't understand that this is like, you know, my dog died or this happened to my son, you know?

03:06:59.000 Right.

03:07:00.000 Yeah, that's gotta be weird, right?

03:07:02.000 Some producer guy.

03:07:03.000 Carl, can we do that one again, please?

03:07:05.000 Yeah, it's like...

03:07:06.000 Carl, you went off script a little bit.

03:07:08.000 You mispronounced some word, which I do, and it's like also I try to have a little flavor in my voice.

03:07:15.000 It's like, oh, I'm sorry you didn't say that word right or whatever.

03:07:18.000 It's like, well, that's how I pronounce it.

03:07:20.000 Well, that's the problem with the other person having the script.

03:07:25.000 What it really should be is you're the only one with the script.

03:07:28.000 Yeah.

03:07:29.000 You know, like if that person didn't have it, the producer, if you just said, hey, I'd like to get a copy of this, Carl, so I can read along.

03:07:35.000 No, no, no, no, no.

03:07:36.000 Sorry.

03:07:37.000 It's only one script.

03:07:38.000 Don't worry.

03:07:39.000 I'll check myself.

03:07:40.000 You just turn that recording button on and we're good.

03:07:45.000 But listen, the book's out now.

03:07:47.000 Drug Use for Grown Ups.

03:07:49.000 Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear.

03:07:50.000 Dr. Carl Hart.

03:07:52.000 Thank you, Joe.

03:07:53.000 Thank you, brother.

03:07:53.000 I appreciate you very much.

03:07:54.000 Thank you.

03:07:54.000 Thanks for being here.

03:07:55.000 Go get it, folks.

03:07:56.000 I'm sure it's awesome.

03:07:57.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - January 12, 2021

Joe Rogan Experience #1593 - Dr. Carl Hart

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Summary

Transcript