The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1664 - Josh Dubin

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:14.000 Joshua, good to see you.

00:00:16.000 Good to see you, my bro.

00:00:17.000 What's happening?

00:00:18.000 I'm just in awe.

00:00:21.000 I love the new digs, man.

00:00:23.000 Thank you.

00:00:23.000 I'm super happy for you.

00:00:24.000 It's come together.

00:00:25.000 If you were here six months ago, it looked pretty shitty. 0.99

00:00:28.000 But Matt Alvarez has kicked some ass. 0.99

00:00:30.000 So let's continue this conversation. 0.99

00:00:32.000 Because you guys were just talking about golf.

00:00:35.000 And you were talking about how you don't want to hate golf.

00:00:39.000 Yeah, because everybody, it's like an inevitability.

00:00:42.000 It's happened the one or two times I've played this year by a whole 12 out of 18. You're like, I want to get the fuck out of here. 0.99

00:00:48.000 I suck. 1.00

00:00:49.000 I'm tired of sucking. 1.00

00:00:51.000 Let's end this suck. 0.99

00:00:51.000 That's what it is. 0.99

00:00:52.000 Have you hired someone to coach you?

00:00:53.000 No, no, no, no.

00:00:54.000 I don't want to get that far yet.

00:00:56.000 I feel like you can't come back.

00:00:59.000 I would imagine that it's like anything else.

00:01:01.000 If you don't get a coach, then you learn bad habits, and those are hard to break. 0.78

00:01:07.000 Yes, but I am breaking bad habits I had started with from my whole life of everyone trying to say, like in the four or five times you play, you're doing this wrong, keep your head down, we'll watch the ball for you, all that kind of shit. 0.79

00:01:18.000 Oh.

00:01:19.000 I just started swinging the club however I wanted to and the ball was going straight and far.

00:01:23.000 And I was like, that's the goal of golf, right?

00:01:25.000 Straight, far.

00:01:26.000 Or at least you know where it's going. 0.99

00:01:28.000 They were all talking shit about you the other day at barbecue. 0.99

00:01:30.000 I'm sure. 1.00

00:01:30.000 They were like, Jamie just whacks the ball as far as he can. 1.00

00:01:33.000 That's what Tony says.

00:01:35.000 That's exactly what Tony was saying.

00:01:36.000 Of course, because Tony saw me play golf once, and he can't hit as far as me.

00:01:40.000 Oh, so it's envy.

00:01:42.000 A little.

00:01:43.000 And you were saying that you don't like it, Josh.

00:01:47.000 I don't know if it's driven by me sucking, or if it's that the culture, what's in my mind about what the culture of golf is, is like... 0.99

00:02:00.000 You know, people all tucked up in whites. 0.99

00:02:04.000 And then...

00:02:04.000 Yeah.

00:02:06.000 Or the few times where I've played and felt pressure from people that were behind me to move it the fuck along.

00:02:13.000 I don't know what it is.

00:02:14.000 I have a very negative association when people tell me, well, deals are made on the golf course.

00:02:20.000 I'm like, I don't know what kind of deals you're making, but...

00:02:23.000 I get how peaceful it is, and I know that... 0.98

00:02:28.000 My hatred is driven by my insecurity around sucking at it. 0.56

00:02:33.000 But having played baseball, I think there's this little ball.

00:02:37.000 I should be able to hit it real far, and then I swing and miss or make a big hole in the course, which apparently isn't good.

00:02:47.000 Divots, I think they call them.

00:02:48.000 I don't play, so I don't know.

00:02:50.000 I'm scared of it.

00:02:51.000 Sometimes you want to divot.

00:02:52.000 Oh, you do?

00:02:52.000 But it's...

00:02:54.000 There's a lot to it.

00:02:55.000 You know how many strokes of like, you've taught me without playing with you, a pool.

00:02:59.000 Like, I'd hit it this way, hit it this way, hit the ball here, here, and I can do this kind of stuff.

00:03:03.000 Same kind of thing.

00:03:04.000 There's like 12 or 15, maybe 30 different kinds of strokes to make the ball flight, go different ways, roll backwards, stop.

00:03:11.000 Yeah, I've seen that, where they make it land and then it actually, like a draw shot.

00:03:16.000 Yeah, like a draw shot in pool.

00:03:18.000 Am I having a mushroom flashback?

00:03:23.000 Shooting star.

00:03:23.000 Oh, okay.

00:03:26.000 The ceiling has shooting stars, folks.

00:03:28.000 I wasn't going to say anything the first time, but then the second time I was like, oh no, this could go bad quick.

00:03:33.000 No, we have a shooting star.

00:03:34.000 It goes across the top of the ceiling.

00:03:37.000 Yeah, those games, any game like that, the problem with golf for me is that once you're committed, you're on this course.

00:03:44.000 You've got to go walk around.

00:03:45.000 It's a long-ass place to go.

00:03:48.000 It'll take you hours.

00:03:49.000 I have upped that, though.

00:03:51.000 You've upped that?

00:03:52.000 Get a simulator.

00:03:53.000 You don't have to go anywhere.

00:03:54.000 You stay still.

00:03:55.000 So you have a simulator in your house?

00:03:57.000 Yeah, but you can't putt. 1.00

00:03:58.000 But that's half the fucking game. 0.99

00:04:00.000 Right. 0.99

00:04:01.000 But is it helping those long, straight shots?

00:04:04.000 I've just started, yeah.

00:04:05.000 So yeah, you need to practice a lot.

00:04:06.000 I need to get thousands of strokes done so I can figure out what I'm doing.

00:04:11.000 And there's only one way to do that.

00:04:12.000 You have to swing hard and do it.

00:04:14.000 You can't hit foam balls.

00:04:16.000 Right.

00:04:16.000 And so you have it set up in your house where you can swing full blast.

00:04:20.000 That's pretty dope.

00:04:22.000 There's not a lot of things like that where you can simulate in your house that usually you do outside.

00:04:27.000 Seems like a bit of a cop-out.

00:04:30.000 If you're gonna get in there, you gotta get in there.

00:04:33.000 It's been raining all month here, too.

00:04:34.000 But it's also like if you want to do numbers, you can't just whack balls unless you go to one of those top golf places.

00:04:40.000 And we work all day.

00:04:42.000 So at night, I can get in 200 strokes.

00:04:45.000 At least I know where it's going.

00:04:46.000 Listen, again, this is driven by my insecurity.

00:04:50.000 I think it's probably a great thing to have a simulator.

00:04:52.000 Yeah.

00:04:53.000 I know how I am with games, and I know that golf seems to me, from the outside in, looking like one of the most addictive games ever.

00:05:02.000 It seems super addictive.

00:05:03.000 And now that I think about it, I forget which Malcolm Gladwell book it was, whether it was Blink or Outliers.

00:05:09.000 And I do ascribe to the 10,000-hour rule that if you're going to get good, it seems like a way to get good.

00:05:17.000 So I don't know what I'm talking about.

00:05:19.000 You got me on golf.

00:05:21.000 I'm real out of water.

00:05:22.000 Yeah, it's a weird one though, right?

00:05:24.000 Because it's a thing where it's the only game that's really connected to business.

00:05:31.000 Tennis isn't necessarily connected to business.

00:05:33.000 Like, you know, because golf, you don't have to be that athletic.

00:05:36.000 I mean, there's a physical movement involved to it, but you don't have to be able to explode side to side like you do with tennis.

00:05:41.000 See, and that's where I guess you just touched the nerve.

00:05:45.000 I think that that's where my aggravation comes from with golf is I think if you got into this conversation with a golfer, they would chew you alive about, oh, really?

00:05:55.000 It's not a sport?

00:05:56.000 Because I think it's a game.

00:05:57.000 I don't think it's a sport.

00:05:59.000 It's a skills game.

00:06:00.000 It's a skills game.

00:06:01.000 Yeah.

00:06:01.000 I mean, it's not that it's not a physical movement that you do, but you don't get exhausted.

00:06:07.000 No one's whacking you.

00:06:09.000 There's no defense.

00:06:10.000 Yeah, and you could have somebody that is really struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction be at the top of the game like that guy John Daly was, right?

00:06:19.000 And I don't think that there's any sport where you could say the same thing.

00:06:22.000 That guy said he drinks how many?

00:06:24.000 16 Diet Cokes a day?

00:06:26.000 I thought Coors Light.

00:06:27.000 I don't know about Diet Coke.

00:06:29.000 He doesn't drink water.

00:06:31.000 He only drinks Diet Coke.

00:06:32.000 And he gets Diet Coke from McDonald's because they have the best Diet Coke.

00:06:35.000 Yeah, they have that petrified ice.

00:06:37.000 Well, they also have, like, the syrup is stronger, I guess.

00:06:40.000 Oh, my God.

00:06:41.000 Yeah.

00:06:41.000 I think it's awesome.

00:06:42.000 Look, I have extraordinary reverence for people that become skillful at anything. 0.56

00:06:49.000 I'll often look around a room and be like, How the fuck did people, you know, invent light bulbs or microphones or get great at this game with this little ball? 0.99

00:07:01.000 So, you know, I'll lay awake tonight regretting the fact that I was shitting on golf. 0.99

00:07:08.000 And there goes my existential, you know, angst. 0.86

00:07:12.000 I'm kind of with you about all these things.

00:07:14.000 Like, I'm impressed when people get good at Dance Dance Revolution.

00:07:18.000 Watch him do those fast footwork movements.

00:07:21.000 It seems kind of useless, but probably actually for fighters, actually, if you really think about it, the ability to do that kind of footwork, to move the feet that quick, like Lomachenko, right?

00:07:33.000 That's how he really got good with footwork is that Ukrainian dance.

00:07:36.000 I mean, the guy can do things that, not just dancing, but, you know, you ever see what he does with a tennis ball tied to his head on a string?

00:07:45.000 Yeah.

00:07:46.000 I was like, well, that'll be good for hand-eye coordination.

00:07:49.000 What did you think of his fight with Lopez?

00:07:53.000 I thought that there was something off about him.

00:07:55.000 I remember you and I spoke about it before the fight.

00:07:58.000 And it seemed like his slow starts might catch up to him.

00:08:04.000 It seemed like that happened there.

00:08:05.000 I mean, I just think he's a mesmerizing athlete.

00:08:08.000 And I feel like he always gets started four or five rounds too late.

00:08:13.000 And I think Lopez had this weird, sort of awkward, smothering, you know, in-and-out, cat-and-mouse style.

00:08:21.000 Look, people can say what they want about Lopez.

00:08:24.000 He's quick.

00:08:25.000 He's accurate.

00:08:26.000 He's a little awkward.

00:08:28.000 So I was disappointed because I think Lomachenko and his dad are good guys and great athletes, and they sort of...

00:08:34.000 They broke the paradigm of how you're supposed to ascend to a championship, and they got there quick.

00:08:40.000 Well, I think he's too small for Lopez. 0.92

00:08:43.000 Lopez is a monster. 1.00

00:08:45.000 That motherfucker hits so hard, there's so much danger in getting close to him. 1.00

00:08:49.000 And Lopez is constantly pressuring, and he's got incredible endurance for a heavy hitter. 0.99

00:08:53.000 A lot of guys who hit real hard like he does, he basically doesn't throw anything half speed.

00:08:58.000 I saw him in the gym when a guy that James Prince and I managed, of course, Stevenson, was in his third or fourth fight.

00:09:08.000 And for a guy that hits as hard as he does, he's very—it may not seem so when you see it.

00:09:16.000 But he doesn't expend a ton of energy in getting off a big power shot.

00:09:21.000 And I was like, wow, this guy, he's technical in a way that doesn't seem intuitive because you're looking for the sort of hallmarks of a technical puncher.

00:09:32.000 He doesn't seem that way, but boy, does he hit for his size. 0.97

00:09:35.000 He hits fucking hard, and he knows how to get his knuckles on your chin. 0.99

00:09:38.000 He's got ring intelligence. 0.99

00:09:40.000 He's got that torque to his punch, which you can't teach.

00:09:43.000 Well, he's got, he definitely has natural power, right?

00:09:46.000 And you know better than anybody that you either have that or you don't.

00:09:49.000 He's got it.

00:09:50.000 He's got it, but what's unusual with him is he also has volume.

00:09:53.000 You know, he doesn't fade.

00:09:54.000 And he, like, he won the 12th round, which is like Lomachenko came back and was winning the 11th, right?

00:09:59.000 That was when he was making his big push.

00:10:01.000 But then Lopez came back and won the 12th, and he wins it with power because it's so dangerous getting close to him.

00:10:07.000 I mean, he's obviously got great skill as a boxer, but his style is such an assaulting power style.

00:10:13.000 He's just always pressuring, always pressuring, always throwing big shots.

00:10:16.000 It's just the consequences of getting too close to him are so dangerous.

00:10:21.000 Well, you know, you put your finger on something that I think is important, that people Even people in boxing or in MMA, any combat sport, you know it when you see it.

00:10:31.000 You look at Golovkin, for instance.

00:10:34.000 If you see him, and you see him next to other people in his division, and you didn't know anything about the sport, and you said, that guy's the biggest puncher in his prime, people would be like, come on.

00:10:45.000 The kid with the nice haircut and not overwhelming looking.

00:10:47.000 Big drama show.

00:10:49.000 Big drama show. 1.00

00:10:49.000 Listen, there's something about the way the fucking guy punches, the torque on his punch. 1.00

00:10:54.000 He knows how to put everything together just right with the right kind of torque and the way he turns his knuckles over. 0.99

00:11:01.000 He's also so well-schooled.

00:11:04.000 He's just so good at finding openings.

00:11:08.000 You know, I felt like he won the first Canelo fight, and I felt like the second fight was arguable, but, you know, could even have been a draw. 0.97

00:11:15.000 But his last fight, who the fuck did he fight in his last fight? 0.94

00:11:19.000 I forgot. 0.98

00:11:20.000 He nuked some dude, but...

00:11:22.000 I forgot.

00:11:23.000 He looks good.

00:11:24.000 He looks good in a way that makes me suspicious.

00:11:27.000 Well, you have...

00:11:28.000 Because he's a little older.

00:11:29.000 Yeah, you have reason to be suspicious of these guys that get more endurance and stronger.

00:11:34.000 38?

00:11:34.000 No, it's not...

00:11:37.000 Mama nature doesn't ordain it that way. 1.00

00:11:40.000 Back in the day, remember when Larry Holmes came back to fight Mike Tyson?

00:11:42.000 People don't realize that.

00:11:43.000 I think he was only 36. That felt much older back then, didn't it?

00:11:48.000 I know!

00:11:48.000 Isn't that crazy?

00:11:49.000 Like 36 back then was fucking old. 0.98

00:11:50.000 Even when George Foreman came back and knocked out Michael Moore, I remember looking at him being like, how's this old man doing it? 1.00

00:11:57.000 But he was like in his early 40s.

00:11:59.000 I know.

00:11:59.000 Well, he was 45, right?

00:12:01.000 Was he that old?

00:12:01.000 I think he was 45 because I think that was the oldest a person has won the heavyweight title.

00:12:06.000 He looked every bit of 45, too.

00:12:09.000 He was so thick.

00:12:10.000 He would walk forward and put those hands up like this.

00:12:13.000 What crazy style?

00:12:15.000 Crazy style.

00:12:15.000 Archie Moore's drive style, you know?

00:12:18.000 Yeah, he was like, if you could sneak one in there, I'll eat it.

00:12:21.000 Yeah.

00:12:23.000 Well, he could take a shot, too.

00:12:24.000 That's the other thing about Foreman. 1.00

00:12:26.000 He could take a shot, and his hands are as big as his fucking table. 0.99

00:12:29.000 The nicest guy you'll ever meet, too. 1.00

00:12:32.000 Sweetheart of a human being.

00:12:33.000 I believe it.

00:12:34.000 Yeah, he really is.

00:12:35.000 His whole family.

00:12:37.000 His career is so interesting.

00:12:39.000 Takes 10 years off, becomes a priest, right?

00:12:42.000 And he's a preacher.

00:12:43.000 And then comes back.

00:12:44.000 When he comes back, he's like 330 or something like that.

00:12:48.000 Big fat.

00:12:48.000 Way overweight.

00:12:49.000 Everybody's making a joke out of it.

00:12:50.000 Like, LOL. Look at George Foreman, mountain a comeback.

00:12:53.000 And then you keep seeing him winning.

00:12:55.000 And then every time he wins, looks a little slimmer.

00:12:58.000 Every time he wins, looks a little smaller. 0.95

00:13:00.000 And then he gets in there with Jerry Cooney and beats the fuck out of him.

00:13:04.000 I mean, that was...

00:13:06.000 That was like, if you ever want to show, here's what could happen to you, even at the highest levels of the sport.

00:13:11.000 Pull that up.

00:13:12.000 George Foreman versus Jerry Cooney.

00:13:14.000 And that was a time where Cooney was trying to make a comeback, and people weren't sure whether or not George was ready for top-notch fighters.

00:13:24.000 That was pre-the Tommy Morrison fight, right?

00:13:26.000 Yes.

00:13:27.000 So Tommy Morrison was one of the few guys that beat him.

00:13:31.000 He figured out how to But look, George did not look bad there.

00:13:35.000 Yeah, he was slim. 0.98

00:13:36.000 And this was back when Jerry Cooney was still fucking dangerous. 0.99

00:13:38.000 He had a crazy left foot. 0.99

00:13:39.000 You see that catch move he was starting to get down.

00:13:45.000 And in this fight, George was looking pretty slim, too.

00:13:48.000 Not looking real overweight, but just very skillful.

00:13:54.000 And the power, the George Foreman power is just something to behold.

00:13:59.000 See, like, that little left hook?

00:14:01.000 Stung Cooney.

00:14:02.000 Oh, yeah.

00:14:02.000 Right at the ear.

00:14:03.000 He knew where to throw it.

00:14:04.000 Such an interesting style of defense, that style that he uses.

00:14:08.000 It's really interesting.

00:14:09.000 Because, like, you don't see a lot of guys target his body, you know?

00:14:13.000 I mean, it wasn't, like, a thing that ever got him in trouble.

00:14:16.000 There was not, like, some guy...

00:14:17.000 Like, a guy like Cooney had a really good left hook.

00:14:20.000 But he wasn't really known for a left hook to the liver.

00:14:22.000 His left hook was mostly up top.

00:14:24.000 He was always a headhunter, especially after the Ken Norton fight.

00:14:27.000 That was like the big fight to put him on the map, right?

00:14:29.000 You know, the one thing that I asked George once why he never got attacked to the body more.

00:14:34.000 I know his son, one of the Georges, really well. 0.96

00:14:37.000 And he was a big fan of Lennox's.

00:14:39.000 And he would always...

00:14:44.000 Yeah.

00:14:58.000 Well, when you get a guy who's a big puncher, like George Foreman is one of the all-time great punchers, right?

00:15:03.000 A guy who's a big puncher, there's so much consequence to any mistake you make, any time you get close to him.

00:15:09.000 I mean, in the UFC, you saw that with Francis Ngannou and Stipe Miocic when Francis knocked him out to win the title.

00:15:17.000 There's so many consequences. 0.99

00:15:19.000 You can't fuck up with him because he hits so hard. 1.00

00:15:23.000 Jesus Christ, George is swinging for the fucking bleachers here. 1.00

00:15:26.000 Well, you see how much stronger he is, too. 1.00

00:15:28.000 He just bowls him back.

00:15:30.000 Yeah.

00:15:31.000 Two of the nicest guys, by the way, outside of the ring that you'll ever meet.

00:15:34.000 Cooney, too?

00:15:35.000 Cooney established a pension fund for fighters, right?

00:15:40.000 And he has this organization in New Jersey, and he is Gentleman Jerry.

00:15:48.000 Very fitting name.

00:15:49.000 Just the nicest guy you'll ever meet.

00:15:50.000 Kind of amazing that he never developed a right hand that goes along with his left hook, you know?

00:15:55.000 Because his left hook was sensational.

00:15:57.000 It was so good.

00:15:58.000 But look at him.

00:15:59.000 He's like 80% lefts.

00:16:01.000 He'll throw the occasional right, but look, it's jab, jab, jab, left hook, jab, jab, jab, left hook, left hook, left hook.

00:16:07.000 Look, it's all left hooks.

00:16:09.000 Kind of crazy, right?

00:16:10.000 And he also was, you'll notice that he was pretty good on his feet, and people missed with him a lot.

00:16:17.000 See that?

00:16:19.000 Subtle little moves on the inside.

00:16:20.000 Oh, he was a skillful boxer. 0.99

00:16:22.000 He just came along when Larry Holmes was the baddest motherfucker on earth. 0.97

00:16:25.000 Yeah, one of the most underrated fighters ever. 0.98

00:16:28.000 Yeah, but look how many lefts he throws. 0.85

00:16:30.000 It's kind of crazy. 0.98

00:16:31.000 He's probably, other than Andre, but Andre had a reason for it because of his right shoulder being fucked up. 0.84

00:16:36.000 He's probably one of the most left-handed heavy fighters of all time. 0.88

00:16:43.000 Yeah, I can't think of another one.

00:16:44.000 You watch, he's probably thrown 30 left hands.

00:16:47.000 Yeah, it's crazy.

00:16:47.000 In this round that we're watching.

00:16:49.000 It's all lefts.

00:16:50.000 I mean, he was known for it.

00:16:52.000 It was a jab and then a hook. 0.99

00:16:54.000 Or two jabs and two hooks. 0.99

00:16:55.000 And even in these exchanges, like, everything is coming from the left side.

00:16:59.000 Everything.

00:17:00.000 The right side, it just seems like, you know, he's like...

00:17:04.000 Way less effective, way less confident.

00:17:07.000 But I never understand that unless there's an injury.

00:17:10.000 Like, why wouldn't a fighter...

00:17:11.000 I mean, he's a professional boxer.

00:17:13.000 Why wouldn't he develop a wicked right hand?

00:17:15.000 Like, how does a guy just have one...

00:17:16.000 Oh, there it is.

00:17:19.000 That's a wrap. 1.00

00:17:23.000 George Foreman with that fucking tremendous power. 0.99

00:17:27.000 Talk about reverence. 1.00

00:17:29.000 I could never...

00:17:30.000 I don't care if they're 110-pounders.

00:17:33.000 I can never be critical, even in a casual conversation of a fighter.

00:17:38.000 I just can't.

00:17:39.000 I don't care what sport it is.

00:17:41.000 You mean in terms of their performance and their ability?

00:17:43.000 Yeah, just because I just feel like...

00:17:46.000 And I don't want to unearth anything, but hearing guys like Stephen A. Smith or Morrow or any of these guys that are like, don't have any experience fighting, period.

00:17:57.000 Yeah.

00:17:58.000 Having even fought just like, you know... 0.99

00:18:02.000 Bullshit amateur tournaments. 0.98

00:18:03.000 You try to hold your hands up for three minutes. 1.00

00:18:06.000 Forget about having to worry about being punched or punching. 0.99

00:18:09.000 It's fucking hard. 0.99

00:18:11.000 It's hard. 0.99

00:18:12.000 And these guys are so brave. 0.99

00:18:13.000 And even being close to it as a manager in it and representing fighters, I will never, ever, ever, even in private conversation, be like, he sucks. 0.98

00:18:24.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:18:25.000 They're fucking great. 0.99

00:18:27.000 It's a different thing, right? 1.00

00:18:28.000 It's not like a guy sucking at golf, right? 0.99

00:18:30.000 A guy sucks at golf, he sucks at golf, right? 0.96

00:18:32.000 I feel much more comfortable saying he's got no business on the golf course than saying he's got no business in an octagon or in a bare knuckle fight or in a boxing ring. 0.99

00:18:43.000 As do I. I feel the exact same way.

00:18:46.000 There's more laid out.

00:18:48.000 It's like you're laying something on the line when you get into a ring and you're fighting.

00:18:53.000 It's a different thing.

00:18:54.000 You're exposing yourself.

00:18:55.000 You're much more vulnerable and I feel like they deserve a level of respect.

00:18:59.000 You could say things about their technical proficiency.

00:19:02.000 I don't have any problem with that. 1.00

00:19:04.000 But these terms that people like to use with basketball players or baseball players, like, oh, he fucking sucks. 1.00

00:19:10.000 He should quit. 1.00

00:19:11.000 You fucking boo. 1.00

00:19:13.000 You get paid to do nothing. 1.00

00:19:15.000 You bum. 1.00

00:19:16.000 That kind of shit they do at baseball games. 1.00

00:19:18.000 They scream out at people. 1.00

00:19:19.000 I can't take it.

00:19:20.000 I can't take it.

00:19:21.000 Doing that to boxing, the problem is a lot of these sports guys, and we had a problem with that early on in the UFC, is that you would get these sports guy writers who would try to write about the athletes, the fighters, in this really disrespectful AM sports guy way.

00:19:39.000 You know those AM radio sports guys?

00:19:42.000 It's like all insults.

00:19:43.000 It's like what they do with some of them. 0.99

00:19:46.000 It's like they have this style of attacking all the different players' work ethics, and they got signed for too much, they're not worth it, fucking trade them, get rid of them.

00:19:56.000 They were doing that same thing with fighters, and I'm like, hey man, this is a different thing. 0.90

00:20:01.000 These guys are literally laying their health out there.

00:20:04.000 And did you put your foot down early?

00:20:05.000 Oh, a bunch of times.

00:20:06.000 Yeah, a bunch of times.

00:20:07.000 I had some real heated exchanges with some people about it.

00:20:13.000 I just didn't...

00:20:14.000 I don't like it.

00:20:15.000 I don't like that way of disrespecting fighters.

00:20:18.000 It drives me nuts.

00:20:19.000 And if you let that culture...

00:20:21.000 Like, if you let that get into the sport, it diminishes the culture of martial arts. 0.98

00:20:27.000 And I think you can make an argument that shit-talking does that, too. 0.98

00:20:30.000 And I can see that argument. 0.99

00:20:32.000 I can see how they would say that, like that shit-talking and like the Conor McGregor-style shit-talking, that that kind of diminishes the culture of martial arts, too. 0.99

00:20:39.000 But that, in my eyes, is a tactic. 0.99

00:20:42.000 Because you're fucking with someone's emotions and you're testing a person's mettle. 0.97

00:20:48.000 You're testing a person's composure. 0.98

00:20:51.000 How are they going to be able to handle the emotions of hating someone?

00:20:54.000 Someone gets you to hate them.

00:20:56.000 They say terrible things to you.

00:20:57.000 They mock you.

00:20:59.000 They insult you. 1.00

00:21:01.000 And then that fucks with your head. 0.99

00:21:04.000 And then when you go to fight, you're very emotional and you leave yourself exposed. 0.98

00:21:07.000 That's an old school Miyamoto Musashi tactic.

00:21:10.000 Well, there's a big difference, isn't there, too?

00:21:12.000 Because, like, I had my son, I took him to his first Yankee game where he could actually comprehend what was going on, right?

00:21:19.000 He's nine now.

00:21:20.000 So I had taken him when he was four or five.

00:21:22.000 So he's nine, and there's a guy sitting behind us.

00:21:24.000 He's a college-age kid.

00:21:27.000 And, uh... 1.00

00:21:28.000 Fucking suck, you know, take him out of the game. 1.00

00:21:31.000 And I, you know, first of all, you know, not that I need to cover his ears from curse words, but, you know, he was, he asked me, so why is he so, why is he being so mean? 1.00

00:21:43.000 And I said, you know what the irony is, son?

00:21:46.000 He probably, you know how to stop someone dead in their tracks, dead in their tracks, and say, What level did you get to in baseball or basketball or football? 0.99

00:21:56.000 You know, 99% of the time, someone yelling that shit sucked in Little League and probably never made it out of Little League. 0.98

00:22:04.000 And there's something that I think is remarkably consistent with fighters, even guys like Conor McGregor, even Floyd. 0.99

00:22:12.000 At the end of it...

00:22:14.000 They will freely admit, after the battle is done, that was all in prospect of promoting the fight.

00:22:21.000 And there's always this, I know I've told you, it's remarkable how these MMA fighters come together and they celebrate each other's success at the end.

00:22:31.000 Very rare, it seems to me, even in boxing, that at the end...

00:22:33.000 There isn't like, you know, you get knocked out.

00:22:36.000 It's like, what are you gonna say?

00:22:37.000 Very rare that you get like a Deontay Wilder making up these conspiracy theories about his gloves, about the opponent's gloves being loaded and something was put in my drink and it was this fault.

00:22:37.000 You got me.

00:22:47.000 Most of the time what I see Especially with fighters, which is, I guess, why I love them.

00:22:52.000 And I always have a soft spot for them, even though I've promised my wife, all right, no more boxing, no more.

00:22:59.000 There's something about it that's in your DNA. You're not handling any boxers anymore? 0.81

00:23:04.000 No, no, I am.

00:23:05.000 I'm still, James Prince and I are still partners.

00:23:07.000 But you still promised your wife no more boxing?

00:23:09.000 No, I promise her that I won't get as emotionally caught up in it because I fall in love with fighters in a way because they're sensitive people.

00:23:17.000 They're introspective.

00:23:18.000 They have, you know, I think existential angst like me.

00:23:24.000 There's something that they're struggling with that they're trying to work out a lot of the time, and I find them to be fascinating people, but I'm not the way I was when Lennox was fighting or You know, when Andre was fighting, earlier on I'd be going to all the fights.

00:23:39.000 I can't because I want to be with my kids and my wife, but it'll never be gone.

00:23:44.000 But yeah, we have Shakur Stevenson and some of the best, you know, this great heavyweight prospect named Jared Anderson, who I think is going to be heavyweight champion.

00:23:52.000 We have a ton of fighters.

00:23:53.000 How many fights do you have?

00:23:55.000 Jared's, I think, 9-0.

00:23:57.000 How old is he?

00:23:58.000 Nine knockouts.

00:23:59.000 He's 22. Ooh.

00:24:01.000 Yeah.

00:24:02.000 One of the most decorated heavyweight amateurs.

00:24:04.000 He was, you know, going to be on the Olympic team, and he decided to come out early.

00:24:09.000 Just remarkable.

00:24:10.000 You'll see that Tyson Fury has had him as his sparring partner and repeatedly has said, this guy's amazing.

00:24:19.000 What do you think about what's going on with Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder?

00:24:23.000 Do you think that Tyson knew that he was going to have to defend against Deontay and that this whole Anthony Joshua thing, because that's what Joshua thinks, that he knew the whole time that he wasn't going to be able to make that fight and they were just letting them get all hyped up about it, but knew he had to really face Deontay Wilder because of the lawsuit?

00:24:42.000 No, it's 100% not true.

00:24:43.000 No, there was an arbitration going on.

00:24:43.000 Not true?

00:24:45.000 And they were actively trying to, you know, and I know this on firsthand knowledge, they were actively trying to make sure that they, he was trying to get out of the third fight.

00:24:56.000 He thought that he had a contractual right not to have to fight that third fight because it had to happen at a certain time.

00:25:03.000 And they, I mean, the arbitration's confidential, but I know what was going on, and I know that they were actively trying to make sure that he didn't have to fight that third fight.

00:25:13.000 Mm-hmm.

00:25:14.000 So I don't believe in the conspiracy theory.

00:25:16.000 I think Tyson Fury is...

00:25:18.000 He's...

00:25:19.000 Call him whatever you want, but that's a man right there.

00:25:22.000 He'll fight anyone.

00:25:23.000 That's a fact.

00:25:24.000 I mean, he's...

00:25:26.000 If you ever see him live in a gym...

00:25:29.000 I mean, everyone who's watching the sparring's jaw is on the floor to watch this guy, as big as he is, with back fat...

00:25:42.000 I do love that he gets fat.

00:25:44.000 That back fat is like some stubborn... 0.95

00:25:47.000 They look like two ham hocks. 1.00

00:25:50.000 And you see him and you're like, what the fuck? 1.00

00:25:52.000 That's beer. 1.00

00:25:53.000 He moves like a fucking gazelle. 1.00

00:25:57.000 He is... 1.00

00:25:58.000 I've never seen anything like it.

00:26:00.000 Lennox has watched him and be like this.

00:26:03.000 I can't believe what I'm seeing.

00:26:05.000 He's just remarkably gifted.

00:26:09.000 Well, he's always moved like that.

00:26:11.000 From the time he was young, he's moved like that, so it's just part of his style.

00:26:14.000 Now he can punch a little bit, though.

00:26:16.000 Yeah, well, now he sets down and he moves forward instead of just trying to box and box and box.

00:26:22.000 That was the key to the Wilder fight, was the 12th round.

00:26:25.000 12th round of the first fight.

00:26:26.000 We had Wilder on his heels and he realized, okay, this is how you fight this guy.

00:26:30.000 You go after him.

00:26:32.000 Because if you just try to move around, then he can move forward and set his punches in and put his weight behind his punches like he did in that 12th round and dropped him.

00:26:40.000 But then when Tyson got up and then had Deontay backing up, as soon as he had Deontay backing up, it's almost like he was like, oh, this is how you fight this guy.

00:26:49.000 And he can't fight backing up, in my humble opinion.

00:26:52.000 Here I am again.

00:26:53.000 This is my humble opinion.

00:26:55.000 He can fight backing up.

00:26:56.000 It's just not his best.

00:26:58.000 It's not his best position to be in.

00:27:00.000 He's got that, what Teddy Atlas calls the eraser.

00:27:04.000 All mistakes erased with one shot.

00:27:06.000 That's another guy.

00:27:07.000 It might not look as conventional, but he pulls the plug on their consciousness in a way that...

00:27:16.000 How about Ortiz? 1.00

00:27:17.000 Hit him in the forehead. 1.00

00:27:18.000 Flat-lined him. 0.99

00:27:19.000 That was it.

00:27:19.000 And that guy, Ortiz, by the way, he fought a fighter that I managed with James, Brian Jennings, who's super tough.

00:27:28.000 And he got hit with bombs, Ortiz, in that fight.

00:27:32.000 And he was just like, alright, what's for lunch?

00:27:34.000 Alright, now give me dinner.

00:27:36.000 He just is a tough hombre.

00:27:38.000 And he got...

00:27:39.000 And that was a competitive fight.

00:27:41.000 That second Ortiz-Wilder fight was a competitive fight.

00:27:44.000 Well, the first one, he almost took Wilder out.

00:27:46.000 Yeah.

00:27:47.000 He had Wilder in real trouble.

00:27:49.000 He had him hurt in the garden.

00:27:50.000 Put up Deontay Wilder KOs Lewis Ortiz.

00:27:55.000 Because that is one of my favorite KOs ever.

00:27:58.000 Because it was just...

00:28:00.000 Blap! 0.71

00:28:01.000 One shot out of nowhere, sweat sprays, and he walks off.

00:28:05.000 He just pivoted and walked off because he knew.

00:28:07.000 He's like the guy.

00:28:09.000 He's like Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle or one of these home run hitters that right off the bat, if you watch him, he turns his back and he's like, it's over.

00:28:18.000 And I think what happened with Tyson Fury is he felt the same way.

00:28:22.000 And Tyson got up.

00:28:23.000 Tyson got up.

00:28:26.000 Like Lazarus.

00:28:27.000 Oh my god.

00:28:28.000 He got up and won the round.

00:28:29.000 That's what's crazy.

00:28:30.000 And you hear the announcers are just, they think it's a wrap.

00:28:33.000 He's lying on his back with his hands over his head.

00:28:36.000 Where many referees, that's where it gets subjective, right?

00:28:39.000 Many referees would have just called it, right there. 0.97

00:28:41.000 It made me believe in a higher power to watch him get up the way he did.

00:28:44.000 He just was like, alright, I'm getting up.

00:28:47.000 It was crazy.

00:28:49.000 Yeah, he's an unusual person.

00:28:51.000 Yeah, bag it up a little bit.

00:28:53.000 Watch this.

00:28:53.000 I love this knockout.

00:28:55.000 Just, blap! 0.88

00:28:57.000 Here it is.

00:28:59.000 Sets it up.

00:29:00.000 Right on the top of the head.

00:29:02.000 And just walks away.

00:29:04.000 I mean, look at Ortiz's arms paralyzed.

00:29:06.000 He's trying to fit his mouthpiece in.

00:29:09.000 But look at how it sets it up.

00:29:11.000 Bam! 0.98

00:29:12.000 Watch him turn around.

00:29:15.000 Yep.

00:29:16.000 Just pivot.

00:29:16.000 See ya.

00:29:17.000 Walk away.

00:29:17.000 See ya.

00:29:18.000 Fuck. 1.00

00:29:19.000 Crazy. 1.00

00:29:20.000 Look at the spray flying off his head. 0.94

00:29:20.000 Crazy power. 0.94

00:29:23.000 I mean, who the fuck hits harder than that guy? 1.00

00:29:25.000 No, and you know, that's another thing. 1.00

00:29:27.000 He could say all these crazy things about the gloves and his water and everything.

00:29:32.000 But he can do that.

00:29:33.000 You know, I saw his first pro fight live.

00:29:36.000 It was in Nashville.

00:29:36.000 Really?

00:29:36.000 Yeah.

00:29:38.000 And it was, you know, his balance was so bad, he could barely...

00:29:45.000 He would throw a punch, and then he would be dancing all over the place.

00:29:49.000 He just couldn't get his balance down, which is not uncommon for big heavyweights.

00:29:54.000 Lennox was like that before he got with Emmanuel Stewart.

00:29:56.000 He had a big problem with his balance.

00:29:58.000 And the notion that this guy would make it as far as he's...

00:30:03.000 He has this far and then developed the right hand.

00:30:07.000 He knows that his balance is improved.

00:30:12.000 What he had to do to improve it is widen that stance so wide that his back foot is so far behind him. 0.88

00:30:17.000 He can't really do anything about that because his balance will get all fucked up again.

00:30:22.000 But a guy that, you know, there's something to be said about a guy that says, all right, this is my moneymaker and I'm just going to figure out how to Dance around, stay in the fight, figure out when I can unload it. 0.55

00:30:33.000 I mean, that's, to me, I marvel at that.

00:30:36.000 I think it's just, it's extraordinary to see.

00:30:38.000 Well, if you look at his career on paper, he's the most extraordinary knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division.

00:30:44.000 No one has had a record like his.

00:30:46.000 He literally has only won one fight by decision.

00:30:50.000 The Stiverne fight.

00:30:51.000 That's it.

00:30:52.000 Every other dude he beat went night-night.

00:30:54.000 Watch this.

00:30:55.000 That's crazy.

00:30:57.000 That's crazy.

00:30:58.000 James Prince calls me one day and he's like, this guy remains Stiverne, wants us to represent him and negotiate his rematch against Wilder.

00:31:07.000 And I said to Jay, you sure we want to do that?

00:31:10.000 Because this guy went the distance.

00:31:12.000 So the problem was that Stiverm was represented by Don King.

00:31:17.000 So, you know, we had done so much business with Don, and Don kind of knew not to...

00:31:24.000 We had like an unspoken understanding that... 0.99

00:31:27.000 You can't fuck around too much with us. 0.99

00:31:30.000 I had been involved suing Don. 0.99

00:31:32.000 James had been involved suing Don over the years.

00:31:35.000 So we had this one meeting before the fight where we're in a hotel room in Brooklyn where Don is trying to grind down Steverne's purse.

00:31:45.000 We finally negotiated these terms and Don kept on bringing up, well, if he wins the fight and if he wins the fight, we were all looking at each other.

00:31:56.000 And I think the three of us looked at each other and burst out laughing at the same time because we knew we were all, you know, Stavurn's a big, strong guy.

00:32:04.000 He came out in the rematch and while there was like, this is the one guy that I went the distance with, he blew him out in the first round in a way that I was like, this guy is going to get hurt.

00:32:17.000 Stay down, you know?

00:32:18.000 It was a wild first round, too.

00:32:20.000 Like, he threw everything behind those punches.

00:32:23.000 Yeah.

00:32:24.000 Like, pull that up.

00:32:25.000 Sorry. 0.81

00:32:26.000 Because the way he knocked him out was so ridiculous. 0.86

00:32:30.000 Look at that one-two. 0.99

00:32:32.000 I mean, come on, son.

00:32:34.000 Boom! 0.99

00:32:35.000 I mean, come on.

00:32:36.000 Just show that again.

00:32:38.000 That one-two's insane.

00:32:39.000 Look at this.

00:32:40.000 Boom! 0.99

00:32:41.000 I think he gets up, if I remember. 1.00

00:32:42.000 Yeah, he got up, but he was fucked. 0.99

00:32:47.000 He's in real trouble. 0.99

00:32:49.000 He was like, I told him I didn't want to do this again.

00:32:53.000 What does he say to the ref right there?

00:32:54.000 I don't know.

00:32:55.000 I don't know what he said.

00:32:57.000 He's in real trouble here.

00:32:59.000 Don't make me do it again.

00:33:00.000 Look at Deontay's hands down.

00:33:02.000 That guy's a badass.

00:33:04.000 He stands there with his hands down like a charging bull.

00:33:08.000 He just stood there with his hands down like, why?

00:33:10.000 Would you really want some of this?

00:33:12.000 And Stavurn got up again.

00:33:14.000 That's what's crazy.

00:33:15.000 He almost made it out of the first round.

00:33:18.000 Here we go.

00:33:19.000 Wiping his gloves off.

00:33:21.000 The referee's giving him plenty of time.

00:33:23.000 Look at Deontay just runs towards him.

00:33:26.000 Boom.

00:33:27.000 Oh.

00:33:28.000 That's it.

00:33:30.000 Look, now he's fighting off the referee.

00:33:32.000 Get off me! 1.00

00:33:36.000 I would never.

00:33:37.000 I mean, to get up.

00:33:39.000 To get up from two punches like that.

00:33:42.000 But it's not just that.

00:33:43.000 It's like the brazenness.

00:33:46.000 You know, like, Deontay had zero fear of this guy.

00:33:51.000 Look at this.

00:33:52.000 Step to the side.

00:33:53.000 Bang, bang, bang. 0.89

00:33:54.000 I mean, totally unnecessary.

00:33:56.000 I'm trying to find myself and Prince and King.

00:33:59.000 We must have been on the other side of the ring in the crowd because after the second knockdown, I remember Don King turned around and looked at us and started laughing.

00:34:09.000 It was terrible.

00:34:10.000 And he represented them.

00:34:12.000 He promoted him.

00:34:14.000 He didn't represent anything but himself.

00:34:17.000 Only in America! 0.69

00:34:19.000 Oh my god.

00:34:19.000 But, you know, I could watch that.

00:34:22.000 And be like, look, we're laughing because it's, you know, we're laughing in awe of both of these guys because you have to be a badass to get knocked down like that and get up.

00:34:35.000 And want more.

00:34:36.000 Twice.

00:34:37.000 I don't care what you're saying to the ref, shaking your head.

00:34:39.000 So I will always be in love with men that are willing to risk that much.

00:34:46.000 Because what's never been lost on me, not to get too introspective or poetic about it, it was always...

00:34:54.000 Like, even with Bermain and Severn, it was a quick representation, but James and I got him paid. 0.95

00:35:01.000 And, you know, this is a sport that plucks, you know, the most disenfranchised people most of the time out of the worst circumstances, out of the poorest neighborhoods, and it's like the fucking Wild West. 0.96

00:35:16.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:35:16.000 You know? 0.98

00:35:17.000 Like, I think Dana White and the UFC get a lot of shit For, oh, well, it's a monopoly. 0.99

00:35:21.000 It's this big thing. 0.99

00:35:22.000 All right, look, there's some organization there.

00:35:25.000 There's a central body.

00:35:26.000 You know, in boxing, you have, like, when I shut my eyes and think about it, it's like a bunch of rabid vultures that are looking to pluck flesh off of people, eat it, and throw them aside.

00:35:39.000 Well, this is what's going on right now where a bunch of fighters are upset because Logan Paul and Floyd Mayweather just fought and Logan Paul made 20 million bucks and Floyd Mayweather made 100 million bucks and they're looking at this like, hey, what about me?

00:35:52.000 Like, how come I'm not making that kind of money?

00:35:55.000 I think what they have to understand is, whether you like it or not, even if you are an elite, the elite of the elite, a Kamaru Usman or, you know, pick any stylebender, some of the best fighters in the UFC, even the elite of the elite, the money comes from people wanting to buy your pay-per-view.

00:36:13.000 It's real simple.

00:36:14.000 Yeah.

00:36:14.000 It shouldn't maybe, you know, maybe in a perfect world, it's the most skillful fighter gets the most amount of money, but that's not how it works here.

00:36:21.000 In the world of combat sports, professional prize fighting, it's all about how many eyes are gonna watch you. 0.83

00:36:28.000 And that fucking Logan Paul kid has a lot of eyes on him. 0.98

00:36:32.000 He's on a YouTube channel since he was 14 years old. 0.99

00:36:34.000 He's been on Disney shows.

00:36:36.000 He's this controversial, larger-than-life, you know, internet celebrity.

00:36:41.000 People are willing to pay a lot of money to see if he can box with literally one of the greatest fighters that's ever lived in Floyd Mayweather.

00:36:47.000 Hey, look.

00:36:48.000 I'm not mad at it.

00:36:49.000 I'm not mad at it either.

00:36:50.000 Yeah, and you know what?

00:36:52.000 The best fighters and some of the best fighters to ever fight, Lennox Lewis, Andre Ward, these guys that I had the honor of representing, you never hear out of these elites that they're pissed.

00:37:05.000 Like, good for them.

00:37:06.000 Because I think that they get on a fundamental level...

00:37:08.000 That as human beings, we unfortunately were hardwired to watch the train wreck.

00:37:16.000 We want to see carnage.

00:37:18.000 We want to see a freak show too.

00:37:20.000 It is a freak show.

00:37:22.000 That was a freak show.

00:37:22.000 It's a circus.

00:37:23.000 I was looking forward to it.

00:37:24.000 I really was.

00:37:25.000 I was so excited before the bell rang for the first round.

00:37:28.000 It's like going to the circus almost.

00:37:30.000 It's like a dude wrestling a bear.

00:37:31.000 Can he wrestle a bear?

00:37:33.000 You know what it reminded me of?

00:37:33.000 It reminded me of when Rocky fought Hulk Hogan in one of the Rocky movies.

00:37:39.000 Well, the difference, though, is that Floyd...

00:37:42.000 First of all, you've got to give credit to Floyd Mayweather for doing that because it's so crazy to fight a guy 35 pounds heavier than you.

00:37:48.000 That's so big.

00:37:49.000 He looked like he was fighting a giant.

00:37:52.000 Yeah.

00:37:53.000 And to watch him...

00:37:54.000 Look...

00:37:56.000 People have a lot of opinions about Floyd Mayweather, what he does, how he spends his money.

00:38:00.000 Listen, the guy's brilliant in a lot of ways.

00:38:02.000 He's tapped into something that human beings want and want to see, but I was watching him in the fight.

00:38:08.000 The guy outweighs him by 40 pounds, and he's walking to him.

00:38:12.000 Walking right to him with his hands up.

00:38:15.000 I was like, listen, he is a badass.

00:38:19.000 And listen, the guy Logan Paul, he's got balls to get in there and to do that.

00:38:24.000 How could you ever be mad at that? 0.76

00:38:25.000 I mean, you could take a step back and be like, oh God, what a society come to.

00:38:29.000 I mean, it's come to watching the freak show.

00:38:33.000 Yeah.

00:38:34.000 It's come to watching the freak show.

00:38:35.000 And maybe not just that, because there were some professional fights on the undercard, but no one's talking about those.

00:38:41.000 You know, it's just the big fight was the freak show fight.

00:38:46.000 And you want to know what?

00:38:47.000 I think that this is going to continue until somebody shuts these kids up.

00:38:53.000 And, like, people want to see...

00:38:55.000 Now, they want...

00:38:56.000 I think it's the same sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that Mayweather sort of tapped into.

00:39:02.000 It's like, I realize the more I run my mouth, the more I make people have an emotion towards me.

00:39:07.000 Yeah.

00:39:07.000 Love or hate.

00:39:08.000 Mostly hate, right?

00:39:09.000 Mostly, they're going to be pissed at me.

00:39:12.000 Now they want to tune in to see me lose.

00:39:15.000 And that's just as valuable, if not more valuable, than wanting to tune...

00:39:19.000 So I think that on a...

00:39:24.000 He gets human behavior and human thinking more than he gets credit for.

00:39:29.000 I'm not here to weigh in on his life or his lifestyle because who am I? I'm just another human being.

00:39:36.000 But I think that the same thing is happening with these two.

00:39:39.000 People want to see them lose now and they realize how there's currency in that.

00:39:44.000 Yeah.

00:39:45.000 No, there's a lot of currency in that.

00:39:46.000 It's super valuable. 0.99

00:39:48.000 People want to see him get fucked up. 1.00

00:39:49.000 And, you know, we were at the UFC recently, and Jake Paul was in the audience, and the whole audience was chanting, Fuck Jake Paul! 1.00

00:39:57.000 Fuck Jake Paul! 1.00

00:39:58.000 And he was laughing and holding his camera up and filming it and shit. 1.00

00:40:03.000 And DC got in his face. 0.99

00:40:04.000 Yeah.

00:40:05.000 Which I love to see.

00:40:06.000 That was so cool.

00:40:07.000 But it was like...

00:40:08.000 Then the story became...

00:40:10.000 Cormier confronts Paul.

00:40:12.000 And look, there's part of me that is like... 1.00

00:40:15.000 You spend your life racking your fucking brains. 1.00

00:40:17.000 How do I make it in this world? 1.00

00:40:19.000 How am I gonna support my family?

00:40:21.000 What am I gonna do to make a difference? 0.99

00:40:22.000 So there's a part of it that I get where people are like, and these two fucking kids, what did they do? 0.99

00:40:29.000 How did they get famous? 0.99

00:40:30.000 I don't know.

00:40:31.000 They pissed people off.

00:40:32.000 Yeah, but they got famous first.

00:40:35.000 This is what's interesting.

00:40:36.000 They got famous first and then it turns out they can fight.

00:40:40.000 Especially Jake. 0.99

00:40:41.000 That kid can knock people the fuck out. 0.99

00:40:43.000 He knows how to punch. 0.98

00:40:44.000 Can he knock fighters out, though?

00:40:46.000 Well, we don't know.

00:40:47.000 I mean, we saw Askren, right?

00:40:49.000 But Askren, first of all, coming off of a hip replacement surgery.

00:40:52.000 It's a brilliant move, right?

00:40:53.000 You get a guy who's arguably the worst striker in elite MMA, which is Ben Askren.

00:40:58.000 And that's no disrespect to Ben Askren.

00:41:00.000 He'd probably admit to that.

00:41:02.000 He's a wrestler, right?

00:41:03.000 Phenomenal wrestler, like elite wrestler.

00:41:06.000 Great guy.

00:41:07.000 Not a good striker.

00:41:08.000 You make him box.

00:41:09.000 It's like the worst thing that he does.

00:41:11.000 And then Jake Paul starches him with one punch.

00:41:15.000 But you looked at his body.

00:41:16.000 He looked severely out of shape.

00:41:18.000 He looked like he hadn't trained for a long time and then kind of got in good enough shape so he could compete.

00:41:22.000 The guy knows how to fight.

00:41:23.000 He knows how to win.

00:41:24.000 But that's not his sport.

00:41:26.000 It's not his sport at all.

00:41:27.000 He just took a paycheck.

00:41:28.000 I'd like to see this guy, Jake Paul, fight someone...

00:41:31.000 He's gonna fight Tyron Woodley.

00:41:33.000 Well, after he fights, can Tyron Woodley fight?

00:41:35.000 Can he box?

00:41:37.000 Well, I know he can punch.

00:41:39.000 He punches really hard, but he doesn't punch like a boxer.

00:41:42.000 He throws big bombs and sets up takedowns and, you know, he can crack, though. 0.98

00:41:48.000 With one shot, he could fuck anybody up.

00:41:50.000 But the thing is, the way he throws shots, he'll throw a bomb and then set up a takedown or set up a clinch. 0.83

00:41:57.000 He's not a guy who's going out there with peekaboo style, throwing jabs and hooks to the body.

00:42:02.000 That's not his style.

00:42:03.000 He's never been a guy who boxed.

00:42:05.000 He's been a guy who uses boxing in MMA, but he uses everything.

00:42:10.000 Does Jake Paul beat him, you think?

00:42:11.000 Oh, we won't know until they get in there.

00:42:14.000 The thing about it is he'll be the most dangerous guy that Jake's fought for, sure.

00:42:17.000 Not even close.

00:42:19.000 Not even close.

00:42:19.000 And no one more dangerous than Tyrone Weather.

00:42:21.000 Well, if he beats an MMA fighter...

00:42:24.000 Tyrone's not just an MMA fighter.

00:42:25.000 Tyrone is a UFC world champion and one of the best welterweights of all time.

00:42:33.000 If you looked at all the UFC welterweights of all time, he's top three. 0.98

00:42:38.000 He's fucking phenomenal.

00:42:39.000 But there is something fundamentally different about MMA fighters fighting a boxer. 0.98

00:42:45.000 Yeah, because there's other stuff that you incorporate into your movement.

00:42:49.000 You're worried about leg kicks.

00:42:50.000 You're worried about takedown defense.

00:42:52.000 You're worried about all these different things.

00:42:53.000 You have all these different variables on your plate.

00:42:56.000 Now you remove all those variables.

00:42:58.000 You give Tyron a pair of shoes and you just let him punch. 0.99

00:43:02.000 You know, he punches really fucking hard. 0.88

00:43:04.000 And when he doesn't have to worry about wrestling, he doesn't have to worry about getting as tired, and he can pick his shots, he'll be the most dangerous guy that Jake Paul's ever fought, for sure. 0.92

00:43:14.000 But it doesn't necessarily mean that he wins. 0.98

00:43:18.000 And I think Jake Paul can fucking box. 0.96

00:43:21.000 If you look at that Nate Robinson fight, I know Nate Robinson didn't know what he was doing, but the way he landed those punches, he cracked him and knocked him out moving backwards. 0.98

00:43:29.000 He can move backwards and then He doesn't have big wind-up movements.

00:43:35.000 His brother has more wind-up shots.

00:43:37.000 His brother was throwing more windmill-y type arm punches.

00:43:41.000 Jake throws things straight and hard.

00:43:44.000 They're dangerous.

00:43:45.000 Much more dangerous.

00:43:46.000 Here's why I have more respect for the older brother for what he just did.

00:43:52.000 Yes, he outweighed him by 40 pounds, but he got in there with perhaps the best fighter to ever get in a ring.

00:43:57.000 I'd love to see how Jake Paul fares against someone similar in size that is a boxer.

00:44:05.000 Well, you know what, man?

00:44:05.000 Yeah.

00:44:06.000 He's only got a couple of fights.

00:44:07.000 Here's how you have to look at him.

00:44:09.000 Look at him like any other guy who only has a couple of fights.

00:44:13.000 If you saw a guy who was coming up and he didn't have an amateur career and he's only had a couple of fights, he'd go, man, he's got some promise.

00:44:19.000 Yeah, no, but these guys aren't in it for the long haul to become boxers?

00:44:25.000 Jake says he is.

00:44:26.000 They're in it to become spectacles.

00:44:27.000 But imagine if this guy gets all the way up to a world title fight.

00:44:31.000 Imagine.

00:44:32.000 Imagine if he actually works his way through some professional boxers.

00:44:35.000 That would be remarkable, wouldn't it?

00:44:36.000 It wouldn't just be remarkable. 1.00

00:44:37.000 The fucking money he'll be able to earn. 0.99

00:44:39.000 Well, how about fighting a recently retired... 1.00

00:44:41.000 You know who would fuck him up? 1.00

00:44:42.000 Who the fuck am I right now? 1.00

00:44:44.000 Andre Ward. 0.99

00:44:45.000 Andre Ward.

00:44:46.000 Andre can't fight professionally anymore because he's had some physical problems.

00:44:53.000 But Andre's still in shape.

00:44:55.000 He's recently retired.

00:44:57.000 Maybe he'll...

00:44:59.000 Are you trying to set something up?

00:45:01.000 You're looking away. 0.99

00:45:02.000 You're like the worst poker player ever. 0.92

00:45:04.000 He's like, well, maybe. 0.98

00:45:06.000 Well, I just know.

00:45:07.000 I know.

00:45:08.000 I know.

00:45:09.000 Look, that's my brother.

00:45:10.000 I mean, I know that he's like...

00:45:12.000 Has he thought about it?

00:45:14.000 He's thought about it.

00:45:17.000 He's thought about it and be like, we've talked about it recently.

00:45:21.000 I texted him after he announced that he wasn't going to take the Canelo fight and retire, and I said, I admire him so much, and I admire the way he carries himself so much, and I think it's so valuable for the sport of boxing, because here's a guy who wins an Olympic gold medal, wins two world titles in two different weight classes,

00:45:37.000 is undefeated, not only undefeated, but fought the majority of his career with one arm.

00:45:43.000 He retires, undefeated, and then says, you know what?

00:45:47.000 That's it.

00:45:48.000 I will best serve boxing as a commentator and as a representative, and that's what he decides to do.

00:45:53.000 And he's so eloquent and so composed and such a great spokesman for boxing and such a great commentator.

00:46:01.000 I love the fact that he got out with all his marbles, got out with plenty of money, got out with his health.

00:46:06.000 Good.

00:46:08.000 Here's the thing about Andre, too.

00:46:11.000 When you get to know him, there's a reason why you have respect for him in those ways and others, because you've gotten to know him a little bit.

00:46:20.000 He is a once-in-a-lifetime streaking comet of a human being.

00:46:26.000 And I say that not because of what he accomplished as a fighter, but if you look at his childhood, and he's been out there about the fact that his mother and father struggled with addictions.

00:46:41.000 His father dies suddenly, and he had every reason to go in a completely opposite direction.

00:46:48.000 He is like a brother to me in so many ways, but I'll spend hours on the phone with him just talking about life and existence.

00:46:58.000 Everything that you've said about—he's the rare instance of a human being that what's projected about him publicly is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how— I get emotional thinking about him because he's so important to me as a human being.

00:47:23.000 And if you look at his family, he's a guy that all his dreams came true.

00:47:29.000 And to one child to the next, everybody that he touches, he has that impact on.

00:47:36.000 And he's a guy that when he makes mistakes, he'll admit his mistakes.

00:47:41.000 And we're both stubborn and have our ups and downs.

00:47:44.000 But I could not be happier to be...

00:47:59.000 Why would he be willing to fight Jake Paul then?

00:48:02.000 Because I think it's, in his mind, it's an exhibition.

00:48:06.000 And I don't think that he looks at it as even a remote threat, that it could tarnish his legacy or that he would have to expend too much physically.

00:48:18.000 I think that he's probably sitting back looking at this and like, you know what?

00:48:23.000 I could now secure not just my children's, but my great-grandchildren's futures.

00:48:29.000 I think that there's a part of Andre, if you know him well, everything that I've set aside, oh, he's got some dog up in him.

00:48:37.000 If you ever watch his fights, if he gets hit, you'll see him...

00:48:42.000 Now I'm going to get you four times.

00:48:44.000 You know, he is a mean SOB in the ring.

00:48:48.000 And I think that there's a part of him that sees this and is like, these guys need to be put in their place.

00:48:54.000 And I could do it pretty easily.

00:48:56.000 But do you think that Jake Paul would be willing to fight a guy like Andre Ward, Olympic gold medalist, multiple division world champion, undefeated fighter?

00:49:04.000 Who's still young?

00:49:04.000 No.

00:49:05.000 I mean, how old is Andre?

00:49:05.000 No.

00:49:07.000 35?

00:49:07.000 Yeah, just turned 35. 36. He's still in the prime of his athletic career or close to it, close enough to it.

00:49:14.000 But he's a little banged up physically.

00:49:17.000 He basically...

00:49:18.000 You trying to sell this fight?

00:49:20.000 No.

00:49:20.000 That's what it seems like to me.

00:49:21.000 I'm not trying to sell it.

00:49:22.000 Seems like you're trying to...

00:49:23.000 I would love for the guy...

00:49:26.000 I would love for Jake Paul to be like, you know what?

00:49:29.000 I'll take that on.

00:49:33.000 But in my mind, it's like, that would never happen.

00:49:36.000 The guy's very risk-averse.

00:49:38.000 I don't know about that.

00:49:39.000 Tyron's a risk.

00:49:40.000 Tyron Woodley's a real risk.

00:49:42.000 And he's also offering to bet Tyron his purse.

00:49:46.000 He said he'll donate Tyron's purse to charity.

00:49:49.000 I noticed that Tyron did not take him up on that.

00:49:52.000 Yeah.

00:49:53.000 Not good.

00:49:54.000 Yeah.

00:49:55.000 I mean, that's a...

00:49:56.000 I noticed that.

00:49:57.000 I said, Tyron is just saying, I'm not saying anything.

00:50:00.000 I think Tyron needs that money.

00:50:01.000 Yeah.

00:50:02.000 I think he's planning 100% on that money, and if he were to lose the fight, it's not good.

00:50:08.000 Yeah.

00:50:09.000 So, I think he's the biggest threat, though.

00:50:12.000 Hey, listen.

00:50:13.000 He can knock him out, and I think he's got a legitimate shot at hurting him. 0.99

00:50:20.000 He fucking hits hard, man. 0.99

00:50:21.000 I have a question for you. 0.99

00:50:23.000 What do you make of all of these exhibitions that have caught fire?

00:50:28.000 I don't know if it's because of COVID that people began thinking, well, I've got to watch something.

00:50:34.000 I'll watch anything.

00:50:35.000 And then they watch...

00:50:36.000 Tyson and Lennox are now talking about an exhibition.

00:50:40.000 That might happen.

00:50:41.000 I think it probably will happen.

00:50:46.000 I think that there's something...

00:50:48.000 I'm biased...

00:50:49.000 There's something interesting to me to see.

00:50:52.000 How will a guy in his mid-50s get in shape enough?

00:50:55.000 Because Lennox is a perfectionist.

00:50:57.000 How will he get in shape to the point where he feels comfortable getting into a ring?

00:51:01.000 That would be interesting to me to watch.

00:51:03.000 It's pretty crazy.

00:51:04.000 It is interesting.

00:51:05.000 See, it doesn't necessarily matter who's the most skillful.

00:51:08.000 It matters what's the most entertaining.

00:51:10.000 I'll give you an example.

00:51:12.000 Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward.

00:51:13.000 It's not saying that those guys weren't skillful.

00:51:16.000 They're both very skillful fighters, but they weren't the best in the world. 0.98

00:51:18.000 But what a fucking matchup that was. 0.98

00:51:21.000 And when those guys fought, the whole world watched. 0.99

00:51:25.000 And no one was under any illusion that those guys were going to be the best in the world, that they were the world champions.

00:51:31.000 It didn't matter. 0.90

00:51:32.000 It was just like, this is a recipe for a fucking really incredibly exciting fight. 0.98

00:51:37.000 It was an apocalyptic, cataclysmic explosion. 0.96

00:51:40.000 I went to the second fight, and it was like in that boardwalk hall in Atlantic City. 0.97

00:51:45.000 The place was fucking vibrating. 0.95

00:51:47.000 There's fights that it doesn't... 0.98

00:51:49.000 It's not important that they're not the best in the world.

00:51:52.000 What's important is how they match.

00:51:53.000 A good example in MMA is Diego Sanchez versus Clay Guida.

00:51:57.000 One of the wildest fights of all time.

00:52:00.000 Have you ever seen it?

00:52:01.000 No. 1.00

00:52:02.000 Pull that shit up. 1.00

00:52:02.000 Jamie. 1.00

00:52:04.000 Because it is one of the wildest fights of all time.

00:52:04.000 No.

00:52:06.000 First of all, this was Diego Sanchez in his prime when he was a fucking savage. 1.00

00:52:11.000 Still is a savage. 0.99

00:52:13.000 But in that day, I mean, he fought like nobody else.

00:52:17.000 He would just come at you like a wild animal, like a wolverine.

00:52:21.000 Just like a Wolverine trying to steal your food.

00:52:24.000 And the two guys just went to war.

00:52:27.000 And I believe it was at the Palm in Vegas.

00:52:31.000 Diego just runs at him.

00:52:32.000 This is the beginning of the fight. 0.99

00:52:34.000 This is the fucking- Oh, this is the first round? 0.99

00:52:36.000 This is the first seconds- I thought you were showing me highlights. 0.99

00:52:38.000 No, man. 0.99

00:52:39.000 This is the first seconds of the fucking opening round. 1.00

00:52:42.000 They were going after each other. 1.00

00:52:44.000 I mean, first of all, Clay Guida takes a shot like fucking no one on the planet. 0.99

00:52:48.000 Does he survive this round? 0.99

00:52:49.000 He almost wins the fight and arguably did.

00:52:49.000 Yes!

00:52:52.000 He lost a split decision. 0.98

00:52:54.000 It was a crazy ass fight, but he got hurt in this fight. 0.99

00:52:58.000 But I mean, the way they fought, they did this for three fucking rounds. 0.99

00:53:03.000 Klay wound up taking him down and winning at least one of the rounds with some ground and pound. 0.97

00:53:10.000 And some people thought that maybe it was close enough that he pulled it off, but it was...

00:53:15.000 Maybe even a draw, but Diego, I mean, I'm not arguing against the decision. 0.65

00:53:19.000 I'm just saying it turned out to be pretty fucking close.

00:53:21.000 Well, how fitting is it that he's wearing a Chicago Carpenters Union endorsement on his trunk? 0.96

00:53:27.000 Well, that's who he is.

00:53:28.000 It's his nickname, the Carpenter.

00:53:29.000 Clay the Carpenter Guida.

00:53:30.000 Oh, man.

00:53:31.000 Yeah, but that fight is like that for three rounds. 1.00

00:53:33.000 Just fucking madness, where the whole place is screaming, and it was nuts. 0.95

00:53:38.000 I still, look, maybe boxing people will jump on me for this. 0.99

00:53:44.000 I have never...

00:53:45.000 I went to my first MMA fight live for the Masvidal-Diaz fight, and I have never seen a live sporting event that was that exciting ever.

00:53:57.000 And that includes when Lennox fought Mike Tyson.

00:54:01.000 That includes any pro fight I've ever seen.

00:54:04.000 There's literally nothing like it.

00:54:05.000 And I know this is like a boxing fanatic.

00:54:09.000 How could you say that?

00:54:10.000 It's just a fact.

00:54:12.000 MMA is more exciting.

00:54:13.000 It just is.

00:54:14.000 There's more elements going on.

00:54:17.000 Boxing feels like watching a baseball game after you go to an MMA fight.

00:54:21.000 You have to appreciate the skill and the science and the art of it, which I do.

00:54:26.000 But in terms of pure excitement and product, the entertainment, it's just...

00:54:31.000 Yeah, it's different.

00:54:32.000 Although, like, you know, when a guy like Canelo fights...

00:54:35.000 See, it's like when Mike Tyson was in his prime, too.

00:54:38.000 Like, a guy who could just take anybody out with one shot.

00:54:38.000 It's the same kind of thing.

00:54:41.000 There's something about that, because you're watching this guy stalk someone.

00:54:44.000 Like, when Canelo fought Billy Joe Saunders, one uppercut, boom, breaks his face and points at him.

00:54:50.000 He's like, I broke your face.

00:54:51.000 And then does this to the crowd.

00:54:52.000 Yeah.

00:54:53.000 Come on.

00:54:54.000 Like, I got it.

00:54:55.000 That guy's...

00:54:56.000 He's special.

00:54:56.000 I don't know, man.

00:54:58.000 Shakur Stevenson, who I think is special, one of the most special fighters in the world right now.

00:55:03.000 Shakur says to me, watch him in the pocket.

00:55:07.000 Watch him make people miss, and he'll give me time stamps to watch this round.

00:55:12.000 How does he do it?

00:55:14.000 He makes people...

00:55:14.000 And Shakur is a very...

00:55:18.000 How should we say self-assured young man?

00:55:20.000 He doesn't think anyone, but he said, that's the goat right there.

00:55:24.000 The guy stands in the pocket and with these little subtle dips of his shoulder or angles on his head, he just knows how to make people miss.

00:55:31.000 He's remarkable.

00:55:31.000 Well, he learned so much from that Floyd fight, right?

00:55:34.000 He fought Floyd and Floyd was so hard to hit.

00:55:36.000 I think that was a real eye-opener for him. 0.64

00:55:38.000 Because he's this murderous young puncher, just seek and destroy, Mexican-style fighter. 1.00

00:55:44.000 And then he fights Floyd Mayweather and he can't hit him. 1.00

00:55:46.000 And he's like, oh, shit. 1.00

00:55:47.000 This is crazy. 1.00

00:55:48.000 This is the thing.

00:55:49.000 The first time I went, I managed a kid named Kermit Cintron, who was a welterweight champion of the world.

00:55:56.000 I remember him.

00:55:57.000 Best athlete to this day.

00:55:59.000 Pure athlete that I've ever managed.

00:56:02.000 He could bowl like a 280. Jamie, he could golf.

00:56:06.000 Fucking great golfer. 0.99

00:56:08.000 He could play basketball. 1.00

00:56:09.000 Amazing balance.

00:56:11.000 Unbelievable.

00:56:13.000 So I had him training with Emmanuel Stewart at one point, but Ronnie Shields, the great trainer in Houston, trained him.

00:56:21.000 And he got a fight with Canelo.

00:56:24.000 This was maybe eight years ago.

00:56:26.000 And he was fighting in Mexico City.

00:56:30.000 And we went down to Mexico City.

00:56:34.000 James Prince wouldn't come.

00:56:36.000 He's like, I don't know why you're going to Mexico City. 0.99

00:56:39.000 He's like, black eyes and Jews don't belong in Mexico City. 1.00

00:56:43.000 We're all going to get kidnapped. 1.00

00:56:45.000 So we go down to Mexico City, and the fight is in a fucking bullring. 0.99

00:56:50.000 All right? 0.99

00:56:51.000 Now, Canelo was smaller physically back then.

00:56:55.000 The first round, Mauricio Suleiman, who's the head of the WBC, comes over to me and says, do you want a drink?

00:57:05.000 I said, no, I'm good.

00:57:07.000 They were warming up in trailers set up like it was a movie set.

00:57:11.000 We walk into this bullring.

00:57:14.000 There's 9,000 people and it's like they're right on top of the ring. 0.98

00:57:19.000 And this guy, Canelo, came out in the first round, and he hit Kermit with a 1-2, and the matchmaker standing next to me goes, this guy is going to fucking put a hole into Kermit. 0.97

00:57:31.000 He's going to put a hole. 0.99

00:57:32.000 I have never seen a guy that size punch the way he punched, like a fucking mule. 1.00

00:57:38.000 And Suleiman must have seen the look on my face. 0.99

00:57:41.000 He didn't come over and say, do you want another drink?

00:57:43.000 He handed me a double scotch.

00:57:45.000 LAUGHTER And just walked away.

00:57:48.000 I was like, that's about right.

00:57:50.000 And Kermit just didn't make it out of the third or fourth round.

00:57:53.000 He just overwhelmed him.

00:57:55.000 Powerful, skillful, and just, he's got that, there's like a dominant gene in his genetic sequence where he's just like, there's just something special about him.

00:58:07.000 I don't think he's going to be beat.

00:58:08.000 He's a monster, and he's so dedicated.

00:58:11.000 It's not just that.

00:58:13.000 What is that guy, Graham Elwood?

00:58:14.000 Is that the guy's name?

00:58:16.000 He does interviews on YouTube.

00:58:18.000 Is that his name?

00:58:20.000 I forget the guy's name.

00:58:22.000 I'm sorry.

00:58:23.000 But the guy has a bunch of interviews on YouTube.

00:58:27.000 He's a really good interviewer, and he goes to Canelo's home.

00:58:30.000 And he interviews Canelo and Canelo gives him a tour of all of his cars and shows his house and all these different things that he does.

00:58:37.000 And Canelo basically, he's going over his philosophy on staying at the top.

00:58:44.000 And he's like, you know, a lot of times people get to the top and they're not hungry anymore.

00:58:49.000 And he's like, but I'm very, very hungry.

00:58:51.000 He goes, I want to be the best ever.

00:58:53.000 And he goes, and I just, it's all about hard work.

00:58:56.000 And he just keeps working harder and harder and harder.

00:58:58.000 He keeps putting in that time.

00:59:00.000 You could see it in his head.

00:59:01.000 He's dedicated on this path.

00:59:04.000 He's not full of himself.

00:59:06.000 He's obviously super confident but aware that all this could go away if he starts to think about it the wrong way.

00:59:11.000 If he starts to think that he's already made it or that he doesn't have to work as hard because he's so much better than everybody else.

00:59:17.000 He doesn't think that way. 1.00

00:59:18.000 Cool motherfucker too. 0.99

00:59:21.000 Treats everybody respectfully. 0.99

00:59:23.000 Just seems like a super grounded guy.

00:59:25.000 He's amazing, man.

00:59:26.000 And you need those outliers.

00:59:28.000 You need those people like him to shake up the industry.

00:59:30.000 You need people like him that are so good and so dedicated and so physically dominant.

00:59:35.000 And I always go back to the fight with Danny Jacobs.

00:59:38.000 That, to me, was the clearest progression of his defensive skills.

00:59:43.000 Because, you know, Danny can crack, and he's dangerous.

00:59:46.000 He's a super athlete, too.

00:59:48.000 He's a big guy.

00:59:49.000 And he's coming at Canel throwing bombs, and Canel is just...

00:59:52.000 Yeah.

00:59:52.000 Bobbing and weaving and standing in front of him.

00:59:54.000 Using it as an opportunity almost.

00:59:56.000 Some of the best defense I've ever seen in a fight.

00:59:59.000 Yeah, it's crazy.

00:59:59.000 And Danny's a tremendous athlete, great kid.

01:00:02.000 I know him since he's like 15, 16 years old in New York.

01:00:05.000 Clips of Canelo, defense, Danny Jacobs. 0.99

01:00:09.000 Because it's fucking incredible. 0.89

01:00:10.000 It's when you know how good Danny Jacobs is, and you know how... 0.97

01:00:14.000 This is a big fight, and a lot of people thought Danny had a chance.

01:00:17.000 He's a big guy for the division, power puncher, real elite boxer, world-class skills, and you see him...

01:00:24.000 And it was a good fight.

01:00:25.000 Still a good fight.

01:00:26.000 Yeah, it was a good fight.

01:00:27.000 And you think about what that guy's overcome.

01:00:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:30.000 You know, stage three or four cancer, like a tumor wrapped around...

01:00:35.000 What kind of cancer did he have?

01:00:36.000 Some sort of bone cancer, I believe.

01:00:38.000 Jesus Christ.

01:00:39.000 Blood cancer. 0.66

01:00:41.000 I mean, look at that. 1.00

01:00:42.000 I mean, look at this fucking head movement. 1.00

01:00:45.000 I mean, it's just so smooth. 1.00

01:00:47.000 It's incredible.

01:00:48.000 It's incredible.

01:00:49.000 And he's doing it so efficiently, right?

01:00:51.000 Look, right in front of him.

01:00:52.000 And his feet are always in proper position.

01:00:54.000 I mean, it's really amazing.

01:00:56.000 He also, you know, the Golovkin fights, I think, taught him a lot.

01:01:00.000 About how to stand in front of a power puncher.

01:01:02.000 He was so much better in the second fight than he was the first fight.

01:01:05.000 I think in the first fight, Golovkin got robbed.

01:01:07.000 I really do.

01:01:09.000 Yeah, I thought Golovkin won that fight.

01:01:11.000 I thought he won that fight.

01:01:12.000 But, I mean, this fight's incredible. 0.99

01:01:15.000 This fucking defense is phenomenal, man. 0.99

01:01:18.000 He literally can't land a punch on him. 1.00

01:01:20.000 It's nuts.

01:01:21.000 But also, he's doing it from right in front of him.

01:01:25.000 That's that in-the-pocket stuff.

01:01:26.000 Yeah.

01:01:27.000 He knows where everything is coming from.

01:01:29.000 It's just incredible.

01:01:32.000 I mean, who's better than this guy? 0.99

01:01:34.000 Fucking nobody. 0.99

01:01:35.000 You know what I watched today that's pretty goddamn impressive that I forgot? 0.99

01:01:40.000 Oscar De La Hoya's Instagram page.

01:01:43.000 It's his fight with Julio Cesar Chavez. 0.94

01:01:45.000 And I know Julio was older when they fought, but goddamn, I forgot how good Oscar was. 0.95

01:01:50.000 When Oscar was young, when Oscar was on fire... 0.97

01:01:53.000 When he was young and pretty.

01:01:54.000 He's still pretty as an older man.

01:01:57.000 He's not bad looking. 0.98

01:02:00.000 But look how fucking good he looked here. 0.97

01:02:02.000 I mean, these combinations from Oscar and this left hook, the way he would leap in with the left hook. 0.98

01:02:06.000 Like, watch this here. 0.99

01:02:07.000 Yeah, he was fast as shit. 1.00

01:02:08.000 Fuck yeah! 1.00

01:02:11.000 Look how good he looked, man. 1.00

01:02:14.000 Like that left hook.

01:02:15.000 Like step in, left hook to the body. 0.82

01:02:17.000 And the footwork and the movement, light on the toes.

01:02:20.000 Yeah, he never stops bouncing when he's younger.

01:02:23.000 And Oscar's one of those rare guys who's a southpaw.

01:02:25.000 He's a left-handed fighter that fights with his left hand forward.

01:02:29.000 It's hard to see that.

01:02:31.000 I know.

01:02:32.000 He destroyed him.

01:02:33.000 Another great guy.

01:02:34.000 Yeah.

01:02:34.000 And in his prime, one of the greatest of all time.

01:02:37.000 In his prime, he was just a perpetual motion machine.

01:02:41.000 Him, Roberto Duran.

01:02:42.000 Oh, yeah.

01:02:44.000 That's where, by the way, that's where Tyson got a lot of his...

01:02:47.000 He's told me this before.

01:02:49.000 He used to watch Roberto Duran and shit he would say, and the way it would get a rise out of people, and he would watch tapes of him and say, aha, now I see how to... 0.95

01:02:59.000 Put the needle in and then maybe rub something in the wound, maybe a little salt, but then when I pull it out, let me pour alcohol in it. 0.99

01:03:10.000 Let me really sting people. 0.62

01:03:12.000 And if you watch, Roberto Duran will call people Dogs. 0.99

01:03:16.000 Their mother's a dog. 1.00

01:03:17.000 Yeah, your mother's a whore. 1.00

01:03:18.000 Your mother's a whore. 1.00

01:03:19.000 You say all sorts of shit. 1.00

01:03:21.000 Apparently, you know, you ever see a documentary where Sugar Ray Leonard talks about his experience with Roberto Duran and that after their fight, they had to do some sort of press thing before their second fight, and Sugar Ray's kids were there, and he was worried about his kids being around Duran. 1.00

01:03:39.000 But Duran was a total gentleman, like super sweetheart to his kids.

01:03:44.000 And, like, when it wasn't, like, promoting for the fight, when it wasn't all that, like, he was, like, super calm and cool and collected.

01:03:51.000 And he said it was really impressive, though he was really nice to his children.

01:03:55.000 There's something about the society, too, that especially we're in this...

01:04:02.000 This very digestible tidbits of things that we can pop in our mouth and then make a decision on.

01:04:08.000 It's like when you know that there's...

01:04:10.000 These guys are showmen.

01:04:12.000 They're in the entertainment business, so they don't get enough credit.

01:04:16.000 Roberto Duran knew what motivated people back then before we were in this ubiquitous...

01:04:27.000 Media is everywhere.

01:04:28.000 It's all-encompassing.

01:04:29.000 He got human emotions, the way Tyson got human emotions, the way Mayweather gets it.

01:04:34.000 So people make decisions that he was an animal.

01:04:37.000 He was a showman, is what he was.

01:04:38.000 And he was a calculated showman that knew that, you know, I'm not going to cross those lines.

01:04:43.000 I guess there are some people that do, but most of the time what I find, whether I'm dealing with, like, boxers or even in, like, you know, people talk about juries. 1.00

01:04:55.000 People are dumb. 0.99

01:04:56.000 They don't think this way. 1.00

01:04:57.000 The lay people don't think this way.

01:04:59.000 Let's deal with people individually and give them a little bit more credit than they deserve.

01:05:03.000 I actually think that there's a lot of people that are a lot smarter than they get credit for.

01:05:08.000 And I think Duran's one of them. 0.86

01:05:10.000 I think that what you pointed out shows some smarts in my mind because it shows the self-awareness that I'm not going to be a shithead of a human being All the time.

01:05:22.000 I'm going to do it when I think it might help promote my career for better or for worse.

01:05:27.000 Or help get under the skin of my opponent and get him to be emotional.

01:05:30.000 And then there's that.

01:05:31.000 Like Sugar Ray was in the first fight.

01:05:32.000 Right.

01:05:32.000 The first fight, Sugar Ray tried to fight him the way Duran wanted him to fight him.

01:05:36.000 Like stood toe to toe, mano a mano.

01:05:38.000 Right.

01:05:39.000 Yeah.

01:05:40.000 That didn't work out so good.

01:05:41.000 It was pretty close.

01:05:42.000 You know, it was a good fight.

01:05:44.000 Didn't play to his strengths, that's for sure.

01:05:45.000 No, it didn't play to his strengths.

01:05:46.000 But he wanted to show that he could stand in their slug with Roberto Duran.

01:05:50.000 I would have liked to have seen what would have happened if Duran prepared correctly for the second fight.

01:05:55.000 Because of the second fight, they knew he was fat and out of shape.

01:05:58.000 They made it short notice, so he had to kind of get in shape.

01:06:01.000 He was overweight.

01:06:03.000 He apparently had a really hard time making the weight, and then after the weight, just ate a bunch of food and had cramps.

01:06:09.000 And then quit. 1.00

01:06:10.000 You know, it just looked like shit. 1.00

01:06:12.000 Sugar Ray was like, I'm going to move this time. 1.00

01:06:14.000 Yep.

01:06:15.000 Yeah.

01:06:15.000 I would have loved to see that Sugar Ray, though, fight Duran the first time.

01:06:19.000 I would have loved to see if he could do it.

01:06:21.000 You know, I wonder if he would have been able to utilize that same sort of strategy against a prime Duran that was ramped up from trying to kill him, like the first fight.

01:06:31.000 You know what that fight reminded me of, that second fight?

01:06:33.000 If you ever played tennis, that's a sport, right?

01:06:36.000 Tennis is a sport, yeah.

01:06:38.000 Where you know that somebody's going to gas out, so you just hit lobs to this side of the court and that side of the court.

01:06:43.000 If you watch that fight, Sugar Ray would potshot him, walk around, go the other direction, get on his bike, switch directions, and he knew he could just tire him out. 0.98

01:06:52.000 I think they knew Duran was fucked going into that fight. 0.98

01:06:54.000 I mean, people know. 1.00

01:06:55.000 You know, you have camps that have spies in them and people tell you, you know, he's fat, he's out of shape, he's drinking, he's doing this, he's doing that, you know?

01:07:06.000 Boxers also are human, right? 0.96

01:07:08.000 They have, they fall like, you get into a camp for eight weeks and there's temptation and women and all kinds of shit around and They're not just men, rather. 0.94

01:07:19.000 They're not just humans. 0.94

01:07:20.000 They're humans that do the most savage thing you can do for a living, and they're risk-takers.

01:07:24.000 So they're addicted to risk-taking.

01:07:26.000 So they're always like, maybe I'll just drink one night. 0.97

01:07:29.000 Like, Jon Jones used to get fucked up before every fight, and he said he did it to have a built-in excuse. 0.97

01:07:36.000 He kind of admitted it. 0.99

01:07:37.000 Really?

01:07:37.000 Yeah, he said he always had a built-in excuse.

01:07:39.000 Like, if I lost, at least I was partying.

01:07:42.000 Like, now next time I won't party and I'll really be dedicated.

01:07:45.000 An excuse to himself?

01:07:47.000 I don't know if it was to himself, if it was to other people.

01:07:51.000 But he still never lost.

01:07:53.000 It's such a lonely thing, I think.

01:07:56.000 It's a crazy way to make a living, man. 0.77

01:07:57.000 And you also, you're getting hit in the head.

01:08:00.000 And when you get hit in the head, you become more impulsive.

01:08:03.000 You take more chances.

01:08:05.000 You become more erratic.

01:08:08.000 The more you get hit in the head, the more you accumulate damage.

01:08:12.000 It's just a fact of being a human being.

01:08:14.000 Yeah, that's my love-hate with the sport.

01:08:17.000 Mine too.

01:08:17.000 That's why I've stiff-armed it a little bit more when you said, are you still involved with fighters?

01:08:23.000 Once you start to care about these guys in a way that they become family to you, you try to talk them out of doing anything that's going to get them exposed to being in there.

01:08:34.000 That's why I thought it was so amazing what Andre did.

01:08:37.000 You know, in his prime, with this big fight, you know, this big potential.

01:08:42.000 This was after Canela knocked out Kovalev.

01:08:45.000 That's when they offered him the fight, and he's like, nope.

01:08:48.000 Hey, Lennox did the same thing.

01:08:50.000 They offered him a major rematch with Klitschko, the bigger one, who I think was the better one.

01:08:56.000 And he walked away from 25, 30 million dollars.

01:09:00.000 The bigger Klitschko could hit harder.

01:09:02.000 Oh my god.

01:09:03.000 That was the thing.

01:09:04.000 It's like, not that Vladimir can't hit hard, but the bigger Klitschko hit hard and also could take a shot.

01:09:10.000 He was awkward.

01:09:11.000 Iron chin. 0.83

01:09:12.000 Awkward and strong.

01:09:13.000 Lennox hit him with the biggest uppercut he's ever thrown and landed.

01:09:17.000 And the guy was out on his feet, but he stood up. 0.98

01:09:20.000 Well, he's also super fucking smart. 0.95

01:09:22.000 Doesn't he speak like multiple languages? 0.98

01:09:25.000 He's the mayor of Kiev.

01:09:26.000 Yeah.

01:09:26.000 Yeah, super bright guy.

01:09:28.000 Crazy.

01:09:28.000 Nice guy, too.

01:09:29.000 He's a fucking tank of a man. 0.99

01:09:31.000 That's an interesting group of brothers, those two guys, the Klitschkos. 1.00

01:09:35.000 They're very boring, but very interesting.

01:09:39.000 Well, Vladimir was boring up until the Joshua fight.

01:09:42.000 The Joshua fight was not boring.

01:09:43.000 That fight.

01:09:44.000 I'm just saying, as human beings, you talk to the nicest guys in the world, but you're like...

01:09:49.000 What else?

01:09:50.000 Jab and hold. 0.91

01:09:51.000 Jab and hold. 0.91

01:09:52.000 They figured out a way to win fights, Vladimir did, without getting his chin tested.

01:09:57.000 Somebody said that he might fight Shannon Briggs.

01:10:00.000 There's some rumor that Vladimir might come back to fight Shannon Briggs.

01:10:05.000 Well, Shannon Briggs went on a years-long campaign of tormenting Vladimir Klitschko.

01:10:11.000 Show up.

01:10:12.000 He would show up on like paddle boarding.

01:10:14.000 Yeah.

01:10:15.000 You know, I mean, he showed up at restaurants. 0.98

01:10:18.000 I mean, that was fucking hysterical. 0.98

01:10:20.000 Crazy that he kept doing that. 0.99

01:10:21.000 That was crazy.

01:10:22.000 He made his life about- He drank his water.

01:10:25.000 He showed up.

01:10:26.000 He goes, where you eat, I eat.

01:10:28.000 Where you eat, I eat, champ.

01:10:29.000 And then he slipped.

01:10:31.000 Let me hear that.

01:10:32.000 Play that.

01:10:41.000 He just starts eating his food.

01:10:52.000 He's telling him, have some food!

01:10:55.000 Enjoy your food!

01:11:04.000 Could you imagine?

01:11:05.000 What was all that?

01:11:11.000 You put water on my head?

01:11:18.000 Is the water in my head?

01:11:19.000 Yes, Shannon.

01:11:20.000 What he did was, after you pulled up to his table and began eating his meal, he dumped water on your head.

01:11:27.000 But it's the way he fell down after the water pulled over his head.

01:11:30.000 It was like a scene in a movie.

01:11:32.000 It was a work, right?

01:11:34.000 Show that again.

01:11:35.000 Show the water get poured on his head.

01:11:36.000 It's like a pro wrestling work.

01:11:37.000 Watch this.

01:11:39.000 What?

01:11:39.000 What is happening?

01:11:41.000 He pushes the table over, falls down.

01:11:44.000 The other guy grabs him just in time.

01:11:45.000 He goes down again.

01:11:47.000 I mean, come on, man.

01:11:47.000 Do you think they planned that?

01:11:48.000 No.

01:11:49.000 Definitely not?

01:11:50.000 Nope.

01:11:51.000 Klitschko's not that guy.

01:11:52.000 But if you didn't know, you would think they planned it, right?

01:11:55.000 It looked like a work.

01:11:56.000 Well, you gotta think...

01:11:57.000 Wait, like, what is happening?

01:11:58.000 Pour the water!

01:11:59.000 He falls down!

01:12:00.000 You gotta think who'd be in on it.

01:12:02.000 The restaurant owner's gotta be in on it?

01:12:03.000 No, I don't think the restaurant owner would be in on it.

01:12:05.000 But whoever that big guy is, man, he got in just in time.

01:12:08.000 The big guy that grabbed Shannon...

01:12:10.000 Yeah, that guy.

01:12:11.000 Yeah.

01:12:11.000 I mean, I don't know.

01:12:12.000 By the way, how courageous is that guy?

01:12:15.000 I know Shannon.

01:12:16.000 He's one of the funniest human beings you'll ever meet.

01:12:18.000 I love that dude.

01:12:19.000 Always smiling.

01:12:20.000 I just love that whole let's go champ thing.

01:12:22.000 I say that to people all the time.

01:12:23.000 Let's go champ! 1.00

01:12:24.000 He's got hats and shirts.

01:12:25.000 He's got a whole line around it.

01:12:27.000 I love the guy.

01:12:28.000 So they were talking.

01:12:30.000 See if you can find that.

01:12:31.000 Because they were talking, at least I saw something.

01:12:34.000 I mean, you know, the problem with the internet today is like, something shows up in your Instagram feed, you're like, is that real?

01:12:40.000 And you just fucking keep, you know, somebody calls you, you go about your business, you go to try to find it again, ah, can't even find it.

01:12:46.000 I don't even know whose account it was on. 0.96

01:12:47.000 I don't know what's real anymore.

01:12:49.000 Ha ha ha!

01:12:50.000 At all.

01:12:51.000 About anything.

01:12:52.000 I don't think anybody knows.

01:12:52.000 It's like our relationship to reality has gotten really slippery because it depends on what news channel you watch.

01:12:58.000 It depends on what political party you're involved in.

01:13:01.000 It's hard to know what to trust, what to believe.

01:13:04.000 It is a confusing time to be alive.

01:13:06.000 The most confusing.

01:13:07.000 The most confusing with the most information.

01:13:10.000 According to Shannon Briggs, he accepted a fight against Vladimir Klitschko.

01:13:14.000 Oh, look at this.

01:13:15.000 Vladimir Klitschko linked to shock boxing comeback against Shannon Briggs.

01:13:19.000 Here's the quote.

01:13:21.000 I mean...

01:13:22.000 Fate has it as it is.

01:13:25.000 Just today I accepted to fight Vladimir Klitschko in his comeback fight, Briggs said, disguised, toe-to-toe podcast.

01:13:31.000 You're the first person to know it.

01:13:33.000 My wife doesn't even know this. 1.00

01:13:34.000 She's outside.

01:13:35.000 She don't even know this.

01:13:37.000 You guys are the first people to know this.

01:13:38.000 I swear to God, I'm in my mother's grave.

01:13:40.000 No one knows this.

01:13:41.000 You're the first people to know this.

01:13:43.000 It's so funny because you've got to read that in Shannon's void.

01:13:46.000 It says givemesport.com.

01:13:49.000 I don't know if I believe it.

01:13:51.000 It's the only place I found it.

01:13:52.000 We could ask Shannon.

01:13:53.000 He's very gray now.

01:13:55.000 Yeah, his crazy gray beard. 0.94

01:13:58.000 Says the guy with the crazy gray beard.

01:14:00.000 Yeah, he's got to be close to 50, right?

01:14:03.000 Shannon's got to be 50. I think he's over 50. 50 December 4th.

01:14:09.000 Wow.

01:14:09.000 I don't know.

01:14:10.000 I don't know.

01:14:11.000 I'll say I wouldn't watch it, but then I'll watch it.

01:14:13.000 I'll tell you, I watch him spar all the time.

01:14:15.000 He spars on his Instagram feed.

01:14:17.000 He puts sparring rounds up.

01:14:18.000 He still looks good.

01:14:20.000 Tyson versus Briggs.

01:14:22.000 That ain't happening.

01:14:23.000 Why is he doing that?

01:14:25.000 Like, scroll down and watch some sparring footage.

01:14:29.000 Right down the right-hand side.

01:14:30.000 Lower right-hand side, right there.

01:14:31.000 Watch that.

01:14:32.000 I mean, he still looks pretty good.

01:14:35.000 This is recently.

01:14:36.000 He's a little overweight.

01:14:38.000 I think he said he's like...

01:14:39.000 What was that? 0.99

01:14:41.000 Him being silly. 0.98

01:14:48.000 He's out of shape, and he said that he's been working seven days a week, so he's quite a bit overweight. 0.98

01:14:54.000 Oh yeah, he's 284. And he wants to be 249. He said he's 49,000 years old.

01:15:06.000 I mean, the guy he's boxing with, though, does not look like he wants to be in there with him.

01:15:10.000 Yeah, I think the guy he's boxing with might have drove him there in the Uber.

01:15:13.000 Could be.

01:15:14.000 He said it's his friend, I think.

01:15:17.000 Yeah, his nephew.

01:15:19.000 So he's beating up his nephew.

01:15:20.000 Alright.

01:15:21.000 That's something.

01:15:22.000 He's doing something.

01:15:22.000 At least he's out there doing something.

01:15:23.000 Yeah.

01:15:24.000 He's out there doing something.

01:15:25.000 Like, who knows?

01:15:26.000 I'm interested.

01:15:27.000 Like, we were talking about, like, people fighting crazy exhibitions.

01:15:30.000 Him versus Vladimir Klitschko.

01:15:32.000 You could show so much footage of Shannon torturing him.

01:15:35.000 Like, the paddleboard incident.

01:15:37.000 Oh, I mean...

01:15:38.000 Where he knocks him off the boat.

01:15:39.000 He's laughing.

01:15:40.000 From an entertainment standpoint and packaging it up.

01:15:42.000 It'd be great.

01:15:43.000 It'd be terrific.

01:15:44.000 I don't know.

01:15:45.000 I don't know.

01:15:46.000 That's why, you know, I have...

01:15:50.000 I realized that as you get past 40, for me it was past 40, and then you have kids, your bandwidth starts to shrink.

01:16:00.000 So while I find it still entertaining and there are things about it that I love, I decided to pivot in a big way because you only have so much...

01:16:11.000 I don't know.

01:16:12.000 I'm haunted by time.

01:16:14.000 I'm haunted by how much time I have and have left.

01:16:17.000 That's because you're smart.

01:16:19.000 Well, I don't know.

01:16:20.000 I don't know what that makes me.

01:16:21.000 It makes me tortured, but I really cut boxing out of my life from the standpoint of being so emotionally involved with the fighters.

01:16:30.000 I sort of like...

01:16:32.000 Got that.

01:16:33.000 I backed into it at a young age, in my 20s, to manage the heavyweight champion of the world for his last few fights.

01:16:41.000 I got that out of my system and then I was like, alright, this criminal justice reform is where I want to be.

01:16:46.000 That's where I get...

01:16:48.000 I feel like I can make more of an impact.

01:16:49.000 Although you can make an impact on people's lives, I guess, in boxing because you can help make sure they don't get ripped off.

01:16:56.000 You can help make sure that they don't get taken advantage of I know what you're saying, though.

01:17:02.000 It's a crazy, chaotic thing to get involved with.

01:17:06.000 And at the end of the day, you're getting involved with this thing that's sanctioned violence. 0.99

01:17:13.000 Yeah, I have a—it's interesting because we spent the last hour or so talking about it, and I feel like I'm sitting here with this shit-iddy grin on my face, and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? 0.97

01:17:24.000 Because there's a part of me that is, like, hovering outside of my body with the streaking stars on the ceiling being like, what are you doing? 0.91

01:17:34.000 Yeah.

01:17:53.000 Right.

01:17:53.000 Not that they wouldn't have retired without me, but I became very unpopular to the people around Lennox, for instance.

01:18:00.000 Because they wanted it to keep rolling?

01:18:02.000 Oh, yeah.

01:18:03.000 I mean, the circle around him...

01:18:05.000 Talk about a circus.

01:18:07.000 It was a traveling circus.

01:18:08.000 There were people that had grown up with him that had tethered their very existence to him financially, spiritually, and otherwise. 0.94

01:18:18.000 And when he decided not to fight and leave all that money on the table, they were like, well, what the fuck am I going to do now?

01:18:24.000 And to his credit, he's like, listen, it was a good ride, but I don't know. 0.81

01:18:29.000 Figure it out.

01:18:30.000 And they didn't like him.

01:18:31.000 They blamed me for it.

01:18:33.000 They were mad at him?

01:18:34.000 Oh, man.

01:18:35.000 So what did he have, like a giant entourage?

01:18:37.000 Yes.

01:18:37.000 He didn't have a giant entourage, but he had enough of an entourage where he was employing people that he was being loyal to.

01:18:44.000 He had guys that he went to high school with.

01:18:46.000 Guys that he grew up with.

01:18:47.000 One of them was his trainer.

01:18:49.000 One of them was, you know, took care of his, you know, mother's house and properties.

01:18:54.000 And he made sure to employ them all.

01:18:56.000 But when it was over with and he was like, look, I don't have tens of millions of dollars coming in anymore.

01:19:00.000 I can't employ you guys anymore.

01:19:02.000 I don't need you to be security at the gym.

01:19:05.000 He didn't need it anymore.

01:19:06.000 Oh, they were pissed.

01:19:08.000 And they blamed me for it because I didn't like seeing my friend get punched in the face anymore by guys that were 260 pounds.

01:19:17.000 That's a crazy thing, right?

01:19:19.000 Look at his situation.

01:19:21.000 He's saying, hey, I have to stop this game that you can only do for so long.

01:19:27.000 No matter who you are, you can only fight for so long, and it's time to end it.

01:19:32.000 And they're like, what am I supposed to do?

01:19:35.000 They're upset at him that he doesn't want to do this thing anymore, so now they have to figure out a thing to do.

01:19:44.000 They would rather him continue doing this thing that you have to quit eventually.

01:19:49.000 Just don't quit now, keep going, get hit from me.

01:19:53.000 Go get hit from me so I can get paid. 1.00

01:19:55.000 It was fucked up. 1.00

01:19:56.000 That's a crazy request. 1.00

01:19:57.000 It happens a lot.

01:19:58.000 It happens a lot.

01:19:59.000 You know, yes men.

01:20:00.000 You gotta have something else going on in your life.

01:20:04.000 And there's also an element, the thing that got me down about it always and still does, I think why I... Got away from it, aside from my wife being like, really?

01:20:15.000 You're going to be fielding calls from people like, my internet doesn't work in camp, what do I do?

01:20:20.000 Is like, you know, you're part of boosting up someone else where I wanted to sort of...

01:20:29.000 Be on my own and do my own thing.

01:20:31.000 So there's that also.

01:20:33.000 The obligation of the entourage is a big issue for a lot of very popular people, whether it's celebrities or athletes.

01:20:44.000 But with a fighter, it's particularly egregious.

01:20:47.000 It's particularly creepy because they'll let a fighter take beatings when they shouldn't.

01:20:53.000 They'll let a fighter keep fighting when they should have retired.

01:20:56.000 Or tell them...

01:20:57.000 Tell them they can still go.

01:20:58.000 Tell them they can still go.

01:20:59.000 Or if you would have done this different...

01:21:02.000 Everybody becomes an expert, by the way.

01:21:03.000 Yeah.

01:21:04.000 Boxing trainers, the strength coach becomes an expert.

01:21:07.000 Yeah.

01:21:08.000 You know, the nutritionist becomes an...

01:21:09.000 A lot of people start to think that because I'm around this a lot and I see it as a fan, I think I could give him the keys to victory, which is a dangerous proposition when people are risking their lives.

01:21:21.000 Very dangerous.

01:21:22.000 Super sketchy.

01:21:23.000 It's like when you're in that sort of situation, you know, you could be, like Muhammad Ali, perfect example, right?

01:21:30.000 Towards the end of his life, that guy took all the really horrible beatings, like the Trevor Burbick, Larry Holmes, all those terrible beatings.

01:21:39.000 He took all those beatings and all his entourage, like, they were still with him.

01:21:44.000 You know, they were still riding around with him.

01:21:46.000 They were still showing up and they let him.

01:21:49.000 You know, I went to his 70th birthday party.

01:21:52.000 At the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville.

01:21:55.000 I was like Lennox's date.

01:21:57.000 I forget whether his wife just had one of their kids or was about to.

01:22:03.000 And I went with him and they have like this entire floor of this museum essentially called the Muhammad Ali Center.

01:22:11.000 And it's all his contributions to the civil rights movement and to society is an entire floor.

01:22:17.000 And then there was this reception for him upstairs.

01:22:21.000 And it was a private birthday party.

01:22:23.000 And he was just...

01:22:25.000 It was frightening.

01:22:27.000 It was...

01:22:28.000 He was falling asleep.

01:22:32.000 And there are these people around him which, you know, should have been just this great celebration.

01:22:37.000 And I don't know if he was able to comprehend what was going on, absorb it.

01:22:43.000 It was frightening on many levels.

01:22:46.000 And that was a bit of like a...

01:22:50.000 I don't want to say a wake-up call, but I was like, you know, you're constantly living.

01:22:55.000 If you have warm blood pumping through your veins and you're honest with yourself, you're constantly living with a sense of guilt being involved in a combat sport, I think.

01:23:04.000 I don't know how it is for you.

01:23:06.000 No, it is that way.

01:23:07.000 I think about that when I see fighters that should have retired and are still doing it and I know they've got problems or guys have vision issues.

01:23:15.000 On one hand, it's like a choice that they make and they can make a good living doing it and if they become a champion, they can make a great living doing it and they have glory forever.

01:23:27.000 They have this legacy.

01:23:28.000 And for a lot of fighters, that's all they ever wanted.

01:23:31.000 All they ever wanted is to be professional, to be elite, and hopefully to win a championship.

01:23:36.000 And that's what they want.

01:23:38.000 But the ones that don't know how to get out and don't know when to get out and make a mistake and stick around too long, you see them be a shell of what they used to be.

01:23:47.000 You see them not be able to take a punch anymore.

01:23:49.000 You see the slurring of the speech for all the words.

01:23:52.000 That's the worst.

01:23:53.000 All the words sort of garbled together.

01:23:55.000 They forget what they're talking about while you're in the middle of talking to them.

01:23:58.000 That is very hard to deal with.

01:24:01.000 But for guys like that, you look at a guy like Andre Ward and go, look at that.

01:24:06.000 It's possible.

01:24:07.000 You can do it right.

01:24:08.000 And Andre has always been a guy that learned defense.

01:24:12.000 He learned defense first.

01:24:14.000 He learned to be elusive.

01:24:17.000 He learned how to be in the right position.

01:24:19.000 He learned how to be in a place where he could strike and he can't get struck back.

01:24:24.000 He did it all the right way and even retired the right way.

01:24:27.000 Everything was perfect.

01:24:29.000 Andre Ward is the blueprint.

01:24:30.000 Now I feel guilty for having said anything about an exhibition.

01:24:35.000 On the flip side, in MMA, there's George St. Pierre.

01:24:39.000 He's a similar situation.

01:24:42.000 You know, George, unlike Andre, has a couple of losses, but phenomenal fighter, won world titles in two different weight classes, the whole deal.

01:24:49.000 And then, gentleman, great spokesman, you know, you talk to him now, he's got all his, he sounds great, he's not slurring his words, he has intelligent conversations with people.

01:25:00.000 You're like, I love it.

01:25:02.000 I love when a guy gets out.

01:25:03.000 Yeah, it's nice to see.

01:25:04.000 It is.

01:25:05.000 And, you know, George got hit a lot, too.

01:25:07.000 But he also recognized, like, after he fought Johnny Hendricks, he recognized he had to step away.

01:25:12.000 He's like, I gotta stop.

01:25:13.000 I'm just like, this is too much.

01:25:14.000 That's why a backup plan when you're a fighter is never underrated. 0.70

01:25:19.000 It's so fucking important, man. 0.97

01:25:21.000 So fucking important. 0.99

01:25:23.000 A backup plan is so fucking important. 0.99

01:25:25.000 It's so important. 0.92

01:25:27.000 And having people that know that you're going to get out and they're helping you.

01:25:32.000 This is the plan.

01:25:33.000 This is what we're going to do.

01:25:34.000 Yeah, it's fleeting.

01:25:35.000 It's also fleeting.

01:25:36.000 And I just, you know, again, like for me personally, it was more like I feel like I have something different to, you know, offer in terms of my energy.

01:25:47.000 And I feel like it's okay at some point to say, you know what, I did this.

01:25:51.000 I did it at a high level.

01:25:53.000 I feel like I made an imprint on some people's lives.

01:25:56.000 But I feel like I have something different to contribute in a way that is much more meaningful.

01:26:01.000 Because I think that, like, for me...

01:26:06.000 To exist in this world, if you're not trying to help other people in some way, then what the hell's the point?

01:26:15.000 And that could be your kids, your family, but to me it was always like, alright, let me find a wrong and try to right it.

01:26:22.000 So for boxing, for me, I got involved because Lennox got stolen from him.

01:26:26.000 He had a lot of money stolen from him.

01:26:28.000 And I got hired to help pick a jury in his case.

01:26:31.000 That's how I met him.

01:26:32.000 He had this promoter and manager steal like $10 million for him.

01:26:37.000 And I, you know, look, I was never starstruck.

01:26:42.000 I was more annoyed.

01:26:43.000 I remember the first time I met him, I was more annoyed because I had to prepare him to testify on, I remember it was Super Bowl Sunday.

01:26:51.000 And I was going to a Super Bowl party and I was more annoyed that I had to miss the Super Bowl because his trial was starting that Monday or Tuesday.

01:26:59.000 And I was like, it was so fucking sad that he would meet this guy, trust him.

01:27:06.000 And whether it was send money to my mom in Canada where they had to convert British pound sterling to Canadian dollars. 0.94

01:27:14.000 Guy would jack up the inflation rate and keep the difference.

01:27:17.000 He would find little ways.

01:27:19.000 It was like death by a thousand accounting paper cuts.

01:27:22.000 And you had to go through everything to find these?

01:27:24.000 Yeah, that's how I got involved in the sport was that I had to understand the business to understand how he got ripped off.

01:27:31.000 And then little by little, we just, you know, he was hanging in New York City for, you know, six weeks before he fought Tyson.

01:27:38.000 And we just got to, we were similar in age or off by seven or eight years or nine years, whatever it was.

01:27:43.000 But, you know, he was single, I was single, and we would just play basketball.

01:27:47.000 And I was preparing him to testify, but it was awful.

01:27:50.000 You know, he got all this money stolen from him.

01:27:52.000 And then when we won those cases, I just started to get fighters calling me.

01:27:57.000 Hey, I got ripped off too.

01:27:58.000 And then you realize you've unearthed this very dark underbelly of this unsanctioned sport where people take advantage in any way they can.

01:28:12.000 So that was what I was originally attracted to.

01:28:15.000 And then you realize at some point that You can't cure everything.

01:28:21.000 And if you could touch a few people's lives along the way and change them and educate them as to how they can take care of themselves, then you've done your job. 0.84

01:28:30.000 Well, you're a guy that you relish the role of taking care of people that have been fucked over by the system. 0.88

01:28:40.000 I mean, this is why you got involved with the Innocence Project and why you've done so much work with people that were unjustly accused and imprisoned for crimes and managed to get a lot of people out of jail now, which is pretty fucking amazing. 0.73

01:28:54.000 Yeah, thank you.

01:28:55.000 It's a very admirable path, the path that you've taken.

01:28:59.000 Yeah.

01:29:00.000 And, you know, look, I think that, first of all, I appreciate it.

01:29:04.000 And I view myself as like, I have this feeling of...

01:29:10.000 Urgency.

01:29:12.000 That there's so much to be done in that regard.

01:29:16.000 And it's almost like an addiction to me to help people.

01:29:21.000 And I always feel like there's so much more to do.

01:29:24.000 Just since the last time we spoke, we talked about a case last time I was on.

01:29:30.000 About this guy, Albert Wilson in Kansas, who was accused of, you know, a black man, accused of an assault of a white girl, and that I felt he was unjustly accused, and we had honored some things about the alleged accuser.

01:29:46.000 It's a difficult situation because I have daughters, and you know, but, you know, I was very, very solid in my belief, and since then, His conviction has been thrown out.

01:29:57.000 I was able to successfully get his conviction thrown out.

01:30:00.000 And the way that I end up getting involved in these cases almost feels like...

01:30:06.000 I hate it when people say this.

01:30:08.000 So when I say it, I want to stuff the words back in my mouth.

01:30:11.000 But it feels like it's for a reason.

01:30:13.000 Because it's almost like the universe is telling me, all right, now you got to do this next.

01:30:17.000 I'm walking out of court in November...

01:30:22.000 And the hearing is in Lawrence, Kansas, the armpit of the middle of the country.

01:30:31.000 The only thing that's there is KU, you know, the school.

01:30:36.000 And when I say armpit, I don't mean that in a pejorative way.

01:30:38.000 It's like one of these forgotten towns.

01:30:40.000 I guess there's no other way but pejorative when you say armpit.

01:30:43.000 So it was a poor choice of words.

01:30:44.000 But...

01:30:45.000 The hearing was being broadcast live over YouTube because the courts want to maintain the integrity of having a public hearing.

01:30:56.000 So I walked out of the hearing.

01:30:59.000 The case hadn't been overturned yet.

01:31:01.000 And there's like 100 people outside the courthouse in the middle of the pandemic rallying for this guy's conviction to be thrown out.

01:31:12.000 And this mother... 0.98

01:31:13.000 She runs up to me and she hands me a newspaper article.

01:31:18.000 And there was an activist with her and she says, this is the case of my son.

01:31:22.000 Can you read about this?

01:31:23.000 And I was like, okay.

01:31:24.000 I stuffed it in my bag.

01:31:26.000 She said, I was watching you in court and he needs you.

01:31:32.000 Please don't turn your back on this community.

01:31:36.000 And, you know, when you put it that way, I'm like, you know, Jesus, I already start to feel guilty because I'm riddled with existential guilt.

01:31:45.000 So I'm like, the last place I want to come back to for a murder trial, this is a guy that was accused of this awful homicide.

01:31:54.000 So I just put it in my bag.

01:31:58.000 I get on the plane to go home, and I take out the newspaper and I start reading about this case.

01:32:03.000 It's the case of this guy named Ron Taurus Washington.

01:32:07.000 And I start reading about it on the front page of the paper.

01:32:10.000 And I like, I started talking to myself in my seat.

01:32:14.000 And the guy next to me goes, he goes, excuse me, are you talking to me?

01:32:18.000 Like what do you, like I must have been disturbing him. 0.99

01:32:20.000 I kept on saying, holy shit, this guy is accused of a murder. 0.98

01:32:25.000 He spent six years in pretrial detention before he got a trial. 0.99

01:32:30.000 He's sitting in jail for six years.

01:32:34.000 And he...

01:32:35.000 I talked about the Clemente Aguirre case last time we talked.

01:32:40.000 About how this...

01:32:41.000 He goes to a neighbor's house and he walks into a crime scene and then they accuse him of it.

01:32:46.000 Right. 0.99

01:32:46.000 It's the exact same fucking thing. 0.99

01:32:48.000 This guy lives down the hall from this murder victim. 0.99

01:32:51.000 He sees the door cracked open and he knocks on the door to see if everything's okay.

01:32:56.000 He walks in, gets a little bit of blood on his sandal...

01:33:00.000 And they accuse him of the murder.

01:33:02.000 And it's so obvious, so obvious that the husband of this victim killed her.

01:33:11.000 Her blood on his shirt, his hair in her dead hand.

01:33:16.000 And I'm thinking to myself, how does this guy get charged with this?

01:33:19.000 And then I'm sitting here on the plane thinking, what are the chances...

01:33:23.000 That I'm going to get the mother of an accused person, a black man in Kansas, where the former prosecutors were accused of all sorts of racial insensitivity, all sorts of prosecutorial misconduct,

01:33:38.000 where I'm going to get this guy This guy's mother shows me a newspaper article about the case.

01:33:44.000 It's got so many stunning similarities to another case I did in Florida.

01:33:48.000 A neighbor walks into a crime scene, gets accused of the murder.

01:33:51.000 All the forensic evidence points to someone else.

01:33:53.000 So I went home and I looked at my wife and I said, I'm sorry.

01:33:58.000 I'm going to have another case in Kansas.

01:34:00.000 There's no way I'm letting this go.

01:34:02.000 So you're right.

01:34:03.000 It's this sense of like, when I feel I can make an impact on righting the wrong, I can't turn away.

01:34:12.000 I can't look away.

01:34:13.000 And, you know, there's a real problem in this country.

01:34:18.000 Really, really bad with our justice system and how it meets out punishment and injustice on people of color to the point where, you know, like I'm gripping the table because it angers me.

01:34:32.000 When I see what happens.

01:34:34.000 And I know that if you give people that otherwise wouldn't have it resources and the same sort of attention that they would get if they were another color or in different financial circumstances, it could be the difference between saving their life or them spending the rest of their life in prison for something that they more than likely did not commit.

01:35:00.000 Well, you're the man for the job because you have that conscience, because you have that thought process where it chews away at you and you have to go back.

01:35:08.000 I mean, that's your calling, man.

01:35:10.000 I mean, it really is.

01:35:11.000 You have the perfect personality for it because you're not a pacifist, right?

01:35:16.000 You want to fight for those guys.

01:35:18.000 You want to help them and you recognize the wrong and it becomes a huge part of the way you think.

01:35:25.000 It's...

01:35:27.000 It's terrible.

01:35:30.000 One day they're going to look back at the way people were prosecuted and the way people were tried and imprisoned, and it's going to be a dark stain in our history.

01:35:41.000 When you look at the fact that what percentage of the people that are imprisoned in cages right now are for nonviolent drug offenses.

01:35:50.000 What percentage of the people that are in jail are innocent?

01:35:53.000 What percentage of the people that are in jail came from abusive childhoods and horrific neighborhoods and no one gives a fuck about it and nobody changes it or fixes it?

01:36:01.000 They expect these people to just figure it out on their own.

01:36:04.000 You know, someone who grows up in a nice middle-class suburb in Connecticut expects some kid who lives in the South Side of Chicago where gunshots are going off every day and the guy you emulate and the guy that you want to be the most, the guy you envy the most,

01:36:20.000 is a drug dealer.

01:36:21.000 Like, you expect that guy to live the same way you do?

01:36:24.000 You expect that guy to have the same opportunities in past and behavior in life as you do?

01:36:30.000 And we as a country At some point in time, someone has to step in and say, there is no way we can continue to allow these neighborhoods to be crime ridden and drug addled and filled with gangs and expect people to come out of them and behave the same way everybody who lives in nice neighborhoods does.

01:36:51.000 It's crazy.

01:36:52.000 You know, it's interesting to me because what you just articulated, I'm like furiously writing down notes, is that, and this is not meant to stroke you in any way, but you get it in a way that struck me from the first time we spoke.

01:37:05.000 You just get it, and with all respect, it shouldn't be that hard to get.

01:37:10.000 When you take an entire race of people, steal them from their homeland, put them in bondage, Dislocate them. 0.98

01:37:25.000 Expose them and treat them as savages, as less than human. 0.93

01:37:29.000 As property. 0.99

01:37:30.000 As property.

01:37:31.000 And then you put them in a foreign land. 0.99

01:37:35.000 You've completely fucking ruined them. 0.99

01:37:38.000 And then you say, all right, now you're free. 0.99

01:37:40.000 But then in our lifetime, excuse me, in our parents' lifetimes, they couldn't urinate in the same bathroom.

01:37:48.000 Couldn't drink out of the same fountains.

01:37:49.000 Couldn't drink out of the same fountains.

01:37:51.000 And we are the aftershock generations of this, of slavery.

01:37:56.000 That should not be controversial to me.

01:37:59.000 So when my accountant says to me, you can't keep giving away your money, all right?

01:38:04.000 I say, I'm sorry, I'm going to keep on giving it away because I'm going to keep on pouring it into resources Because that will be lasting.

01:38:12.000 And here's a good testament to how if you see past the bullshit of what divides us and labeling people this and that, you can always, because we had a lot, Jason Flom and I, you know, who's a board member at the Innocence Project, we were overwhelmed by the outreach just from being on your show and talking to people.

01:38:32.000 How can I help?

01:38:33.000 One thing you can do to help is always keep an open mind regardless of who you're dealing with.

01:38:39.000 That's an easy way to help.

01:38:41.000 Watch this.

01:38:42.000 I represent the chairman of Marvel Entertainment.

01:38:45.000 His name is Ike Perlmutter.

01:38:47.000 Billionaire many times over.

01:38:49.000 He happens to be closest friends with Donald Trump way before he was president.

01:38:56.000 I could have used that as a way to separate myself from him, to dismiss him.

01:39:03.000 And I represented him, I still do, in this wild case where his DNA was stolen and he was accused of something he didn't do.

01:39:11.000 And Ike Perlmutter at one point said, you're not paying enough attention to my case.

01:39:16.000 And it was because I was working on an exoneration case in Florida, Clementi's case, actually.

01:39:21.000 And he started following the case in the press.

01:39:25.000 And this isn't a guy that was like some criminal justice reform advocate.

01:39:29.000 He said it struck him that if I didn't have you and Roy Black, who's a famous criminal defense lawyer that was handling this civil case, if I didn't have you and the resources to fight this, I would have been accused of a crime I didn't commit.

01:39:44.000 And it struck him that he had the resources to make a difference.

01:39:48.000 So he started making gifts in my honor to the Innocence Project, substantial gifts.

01:39:54.000 And I could have, everybody around me said, you're friends with this guy, you've become friends with him.

01:40:00.000 And he got enlightened to the point where in December, I'm in Florida.

01:40:06.000 A week before the Capitol riot, he called me and said, Josh, look, I want to help get somebody executive clemency if I can.

01:40:18.000 And I want you to figure out one person that you think is, you know, the most deserving candidate for it.

01:40:25.000 And let's try to get it before the president.

01:40:27.000 I was in Florida.

01:40:29.000 He was in Florida.

01:40:31.000 He said, you're going to meet with the president. 1.00

01:40:34.000 And look, a lot of people would have said to me, you're fucking crazy. 1.00

01:40:37.000 How could you meet with him? 1.00

01:40:38.000 I said, I don't care about any of that.

01:40:40.000 I'm trying to save a life.

01:40:42.000 So there's a retired judge, federal judge named John Gleason, who started this project called the Holloway Project.

01:40:49.000 Where he started to realize exactly what you were talking about, people on nonviolent drug offenses, where there were just disproportionate sentences.

01:41:00.000 He had a list of people where, you know, to come up with one was difficult.

01:41:04.000 But I asked him, Barry Sheck, who's one of the founders of the Innocence Project, and various others, Who do you think is, if you had to give me a list of 10. So I got lists, and Judge Gleason's client was this guy named Jawad Moussa,

01:41:20.000 who was in Baltimore, the worst possible circumstances.

01:41:27.000 He gets arrested on this reverse dry sting, they call it, where he's asked to cobble together $20,000 and make a heroin purchase in New York.

01:41:49.000 Jesus.

01:41:57.000 Oh, Jesus.

01:42:08.000 By all accounts, Judge Gleason said, look, he pointed out areas in the law that I had never considered.

01:42:14.000 So I could not get this guy off my mind.

01:42:17.000 So I finally put him forward as the person.

01:42:20.000 So I thought that I would submit paperwork and it would go away.

01:42:26.000 So, one week before the Capitol riots, Ike called me and said, you're gonna come to dinner tonight with your wife, and you're gonna present the case to various people in the White House at Mar-a-Lago.

01:42:40.000 Now, there are some Democrats, left-leaning or otherwise, you're gonna go to Mar-a-Lago?

01:42:45.000 And I would always say, hell yes, I'm going there.

01:42:47.000 I'm gonna try to save someone's life.

01:42:50.000 I met with Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, and just explained to them the case.

01:42:57.000 And I gotta tell you, she said, look, I really admire your work at the Innocence Project.

01:43:03.000 I think this is really noble.

01:43:05.000 We think that this is a great candidate for executive clemency.

01:43:09.000 And it was like throughout the dinner, it was on to the next person, on to the next person.

01:43:13.000 So at one point, there's a table, like we're sitting at a table, and literally, the distance you and I are from each other, there's two empty seats.

01:43:23.000 And it dawns on me that we're going to be having dinner with the president and his wife.

01:43:27.000 So at some point, he walks out, and everybody stands at Mar-a-Lago and claps when he comes out.

01:43:33.000 Like Kim Jong-un?

01:43:35.000 It was worse than that.

01:43:36.000 Have you ever seen the Kim Jong-un clapping?

01:43:38.000 I saw the videos of it.

01:43:41.000 You see the recent one?

01:43:41.000 No.

01:43:42.000 The recent one is mind-blowing.

01:43:46.000 We'll get to that in a minute.

01:43:47.000 So I said to Ike, do I have to stand and clap?

01:43:50.000 And he goes, if you want your pardon, you do.

01:43:53.000 So I stood and clapped.

01:43:55.000 So dinner is progressing and we're not talking.

01:43:59.000 We're not talking about this.

01:44:01.000 So finally, Ike says to me, look, He wants to talk to you about this case now.

01:44:06.000 And he asked me a bunch of very pointed questions.

01:44:09.000 So all of a sudden, then I find myself at a table, my wife, myself, the president, the first lady, Ike Perlmutter and his wife.

01:44:19.000 And he says, look, I hear great things about you from Mike.

01:44:21.000 Tell me about the case.

01:44:23.000 Tremendous, tremendous things. 0.98

01:44:24.000 I mean, it was so fucking loony. 0.97

01:44:28.000 I remember him saying, I want ice cream, ice cream, two scoops. 0.99

01:44:32.000 I want two scoops, two scoops, he kept saying.

01:44:34.000 I don't know why that stuck with me.

01:44:35.000 But he said, he told me this story.

01:44:38.000 He said, you know, do you...

01:44:41.000 Do you think he's innocent?

01:44:43.000 I said, no, I don't think he's innocent.

01:44:44.000 I'm the executive of Clemency.

01:44:47.000 We're asking you to pardon him.

01:44:48.000 It was a nonviolent drug offense.

01:44:50.000 I explained the whole case to him and he said, I can't.

01:44:52.000 I had Jim Brown come to me, the famous running back.

01:44:55.000 And the guy was a murderer.

01:44:56.000 I couldn't do that.

01:44:57.000 I only want nonviolent drug offenses.

01:44:59.000 And he said, where is he going to work when he gets out?

01:45:01.000 And I said, I've offered him a job.

01:45:03.000 He has his paralegal certificate that he got in jail.

01:45:06.000 And he said, you'll employ him?

01:45:07.000 I'll employ him.

01:45:09.000 A week later.

01:45:11.000 So I meet with him.

01:45:12.000 He tells me, call White House counsel. 0.99

01:45:14.000 And then a week later, the fucking Capitol riot happens. 0.99

01:45:18.000 So everybody involved in this potential presidential party is like, well, this is a wrap. 0.99

01:45:26.000 This isn't happening.

01:45:27.000 The last day of his presidency, the last day, I was at Ike's apartment with my wife and kids.

01:45:36.000 And the phone rang and he goes, it's the White House.

01:45:41.000 He said, don't go anywhere, because we were walking out.

01:45:44.000 And he walked out and he said, the pardon was just signed.

01:45:48.000 And I don't know this man.

01:45:51.000 I never met him.

01:45:52.000 My immediate release of a...

01:45:54.000 I started to weep openly.

01:45:57.000 You know, there's just no feeling that you can ever put into words when you help restore another human being in that way.

01:46:08.000 Now, Jawad Musa...

01:46:10.000 And I met for the first time over FaceTime.

01:46:13.000 You know, four days later, I flew his brother to meet him.

01:46:18.000 He was in Colorado, some awful facility in Colorado.

01:46:22.000 I flew his brother out there.

01:46:24.000 He got out like that.

01:46:26.000 The pardon happens, and then you're out.

01:46:29.000 He was flown back to Baltimore.

01:46:31.000 We met in the airport on FaceTime.

01:46:34.000 And we were immediately felt like bonded like brothers.

01:46:37.000 He now works for me.

01:46:39.000 And his insights in the four or five months that he's been out, his insights on cases, a man that spent 30 some odd years working on it became like a jail lawyer.

01:46:54.000 You realize that there are people, human beings, that have been forgotten, that have so much potential if someone just cares.

01:47:00.000 So now he's, you know, it's not without problems.

01:47:04.000 He's working on getting his official out-of-jail paralegal certificate.

01:47:08.000 But you realize that if you just create connections and allow...

01:47:13.000 I don't want to sound like some silly infomercial, but I easily could have...

01:47:17.000 Found reasons why not to try to enlighten someone whose politics were different than mine, and Ike Perlmutter was the least likely person, but he's now, I've found that if you tap into it and turn his mind on to the human suffering,

01:47:33.000 he now wants to start a criminal justice reform center that we're working on together.

01:47:38.000 That's amazing.

01:47:38.000 So I just feel like sometimes in a world where our politics are so divided, it was one of the more bizarre meals I've ever had.

01:47:45.000 Two scoops.

01:47:46.000 Tube scoops! 0.70

01:47:48.000 But it was worth it, man.

01:47:50.000 Wow.

01:47:53.000 First of all, it's shocking that someone could, over a $5,000 heroin deal, wind up in jail for life where there's no heroin.

01:48:02.000 I mean, if that doesn't seem like you're getting railroaded, if that doesn't seem like a setup, if that doesn't seem like, that that shouldn't be legal.

01:48:10.000 It's called a reverse dry sting.

01:48:13.000 It's so crazy.

01:48:14.000 Look, you've read about cases where, for low-level drug offenses, Mostly people of color. 1.00

01:48:22.000 The way that they were forgotten about is that our justice system said, let's accelerate the forgetting about you process.

01:48:31.000 Look at the Innocence Project.

01:48:33.000 Close to 60% of our clients are African American.

01:48:37.000 There's a reason for that.

01:48:39.000 It's not an accident.

01:48:41.000 Well, it seems to me that in this country, there's a real...

01:48:45.000 Well, first of all, there's a real problem with the fact that the legal system is essentially a game, right?

01:48:52.000 And if you are on a team, your team is trying to win the game.

01:48:56.000 And if you're on a team that's trying to prosecute someone and you have the ability to figure out a way to push it through, to, you know...

01:49:09.000 Show someone in a light that's not accurate, to not have certain evidence be admitted, to withhold evidence that might have exonerated that person.

01:49:21.000 This is all part of this game.

01:49:23.000 And we know about this at very high levels that this exists.

01:49:26.000 It's not justice, right?

01:49:29.000 It's a game of winning and losing. 0.98

01:49:31.000 The same thing with dirty cops, right?

01:49:33.000 If a cop plants drugs on someone, what are they doing?

01:49:36.000 They're cheating on the game.

01:49:37.000 That's exactly right.

01:49:38.000 And it is a game in that cops have a certain amount of arrests they're supposed to make.

01:49:42.000 In certain places, they have quotas.

01:49:46.000 They have to make quotas.

01:49:47.000 I don't know if they still do that anymore, but I know cops have told me that that's sort of an untold thing.

01:49:53.000 In some places, they have quotas where you have to arrest a certain amount of people.

01:49:57.000 Well, it's certainly a gauge for how effective they are at their job.

01:50:02.000 So you put your finger on exactly the point of all of this.

01:50:08.000 Where I found success is trying to disarm people.

01:50:13.000 And having them understand that this isn't about winning or losing.

01:50:17.000 We're dealing with a human being here.

01:50:18.000 A person of flesh is a life.

01:50:21.000 So let's talk about while we respect the victim.

01:50:24.000 You know, it's making them understand that it's less about winning and more about let's just take an objective look at the evidence.

01:50:31.000 Look, there's a DA, a new DA in this county where this Ron Torres Washington case is being tried.

01:50:38.000 Now, I have now signed on I guess it was kind of predictable with the Midwest Innocence Project, which is a different Innocence Project, but it's part of the Innocence Network, and a local lawyer to represent him.

01:50:51.000 The case was tried once to a hung jury, and now we're retrying it.

01:50:56.000 The woman that ran for DA I ran on a platform that the Albert Wilson case, the case that we got the conviction thrown out, and the Ron Torres Washington case were problematic prosecutions, and that she was going to take a close look at them when she became DA. And at least she is giving me a forum.

01:51:17.000 And saying, I will let you come in and present to me why we shouldn't go forward with this prosecution.

01:51:22.000 Now, is she still, now that she's DA, is she firm in her belief that Ron Torres committed the crime?

01:51:28.000 I think she is at this point.

01:51:30.000 I think when we get before her and we're able to convince her...

01:51:35.000 That this is not a sound prosecution.

01:51:38.000 I'm confident that, you know, she ran on this platform.

01:51:42.000 So let's see if she'll live up to it. 0.98

01:51:44.000 So far, I've been pleasantly surprised.

01:51:46.000 But it takes, that's such a small, that's a grain of sand on a beach that stretches this whole country.

01:51:53.000 And so that's where the sense of urgency comes, is that the more people we can get being focused on identifying the problem, And as you correctly put it, a lot of it is about winning and losing.

01:52:06.000 I'm working on a case right now where the latent print examiner in the case was making up matches of fingerprints and palm prints.

01:52:15.000 And it took a whistleblower in the latent print unit to say, if we don't agree with her, there's this process by which you verify.

01:52:24.000 When a latent print examiner says that is Joe Rogan's fingerprint on the murder weapon, she then has to give it to another print examiner for what they call verification.

01:52:34.000 It's a process called ACE-V, right?

01:52:36.000 The V stands for verification.

01:52:39.000 You know, analysis, comparison, evaluation, verification.

01:52:45.000 If that person doesn't agree that that is an identifying print that can be matched to Joe Rogan, you can't call it a match. 0.96

01:52:55.000 What she was doing is when she wouldn't get an agreement from one of her colleagues, she would say, fuck you, I'll go to a different one, go to a different one.

01:53:04.000 And it got so bad and it got to the point where she started sending them out to a guy that retired out of the latent print unit because he had health problems so severe that he admittedly, quote, lost his eye for identification. 0.97

01:53:17.000 And she'd get the verification from him.

01:53:20.000 So watch what it takes.

01:53:21.000 This woman writes a whistleblower complaint saying there's a big problem here. 1.00

01:53:26.000 So this happened in Florida, where a lot of weird shit seems to happen. 0.96

01:53:30.000 And Florida says, alright, let's call in the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. 0.97

01:53:34.000 And let's call in an independent consultant and reexamine some of her cases. 0.97

01:53:39.000 They found five cases where she made positive identifications to prints on murder weapons that were totally fucking made up. 0.93

01:53:47.000 Why did she do it? 1.00

01:53:49.000 She wanted to win.

01:53:51.000 She wanted to win.

01:53:52.000 She wanted to have an amazing record.

01:53:53.000 I mean, that's one of the things that people hang their identity on, is how well they do at defense or prosecution, right?

01:54:01.000 I mean, it's not just that.

01:54:03.000 It's like these prosecutors come out of their prosecution units, out of these offices, and then they oftentimes switch to the defense.

01:54:12.000 And they want to come in and say, I never lost the case.

01:54:15.000 Well, okay, you never lost the case.

01:54:18.000 You know, the reason the conviction rate in most jurisdictions is upwards of 98% is because most people assume that if you have been accused and charged with a crime, you have done it.

01:54:33.000 That's just the assumption.

01:54:35.000 Of course.

01:54:36.000 And when you're black or Latin, person of color, I would venture a guess that that rate of assumption jumps to 99.9%. 0.96

01:54:47.000 Because what sells papers is not...

01:54:51.000 You know, we hear about these cases when it's frankly too late.

01:54:54.000 After someone served 10, 20, 30 years in jail for a crime they didn't commit, if someone would just stop...

01:55:01.000 Before decades pass and lives are ruined, and take stock in the wake of destruction that a prosecution leaves in its path and says, let's just take a deep breath at the outset.

01:55:17.000 Let's put the winning and losing aside.

01:55:20.000 Let's just take a real close look at the evidence.

01:55:22.000 You know, there would not be as many wrongful incarcerations and wrongful convictions.

01:55:27.000 And we hear about these cases where it takes, I mean, to get an exoneration is like pushing 14 boulders up a hill with your back, you know, and getting rolled down upon so many times.

01:55:41.000 You hear about them after the fact and they're great stories and they sell and everybody's, but if you saw what's behind it, It's devastating.

01:55:49.000 It's heart-wrenching.

01:55:50.000 And I think that if more people paid attention and did not jump to that assumption of guilt rather than do what we like to believe we can do in this country, which is presume innocence,

01:56:07.000 There would be a lot less of this because we have to be real about the fact that nobody presumes innocence.

01:56:12.000 No.

01:56:12.000 That's just a natural thing.

01:56:14.000 You know, it's as soon as someone gets accused of something in that.

01:56:17.000 Why is that though?

01:56:18.000 Why do you think that is?

01:56:19.000 I don't know because we're, in a lot of ways, we're callous.

01:56:22.000 In a lot of ways, we're angry about crime.

01:56:25.000 You know, if you hear someone get accused of murder, you automatically go, oh, he murdered somebody.

01:56:32.000 It's like a...

01:56:33.000 A thing that goes off.

01:56:34.000 And part of it, I think, is also because of pop culture. 0.97

01:56:36.000 I mean, how many fucking Law& Order episodes do we have to see? 0.97

01:56:39.000 How many of these cop shows do we have to see? 0.98

01:56:41.000 We're fed this narrative, right, that the cops are the good guys, they prosecute people that are guilty, they go after them, and they finally get them.

01:56:50.000 We very rarely get the narrative of someone unjustly accused.

01:56:54.000 It's much more rare.

01:56:55.000 And it's novel.

01:56:57.000 When that's a narrative in a movie, it's like, wow, that guy's innocent.

01:57:00.000 And then it's usually like the really nice people are going to get him out of jail.

01:57:04.000 Yay, Josh Dubin did it.

01:57:06.000 You know, that's really how they look at things.

01:57:09.000 They look at things like a movie or a television show.

01:57:12.000 Well, that's why, you know, why I'm so appreciative and thankful that you give us a forum to speak.

01:57:19.000 I don't think I'd give you enough.

01:57:20.000 I think we should do this more often, and I think we should try to figure out a way to highlight these cases because I have to think that what it looks like to you is like an ant going up against an army.

01:57:30.000 I mean, there must be so many cases.

01:57:33.000 Well, you put, yeah, there are so many cases.

01:57:35.000 You've put, you know, Jason Flom and I decided to sort of take it on our own.

01:57:39.000 Shout out to Jason Flom.

01:57:41.000 Because we have said- Because you're good people.

01:57:43.000 No, but we could help make a difference by giving resources and assembling teams.

01:57:49.000 Outside of my affiliation with the Innocence Project, because the Innocence Project is a big organization that has, you know, I can't speak on behalf of them.

01:57:58.000 I'm the ambassador to the Innocence Project, so sometimes I work on cases where they ask me to take a look.

01:58:03.000 You know, and I'm an advocate for the Innocence Project, but, you know, it traditionally was an organization that just looked at cases where there's DNA. And if there's not DNA, which is evolving, they're starting to take on more cases, but take the case of Juwan Musa.

01:58:17.000 You know, I mean, that's not an Innocence Project case.

01:58:21.000 It's just a case where someone has to care.

01:58:22.000 And I think that the more we can help promote the narrative that you need to take a deep breath, and you should not hear about wrongful accusations or wrongful convictions when it's too late.

01:58:36.000 Because the reality is, Joe, is that these guys and gals — you know, Rosa Jimenez was just exonerated here in Texas — look, They're not...

01:58:48.000 There are no happy endings.

01:58:51.000 By and large, there is no way to undo the psychological damage that is done.

01:58:59.000 No way to undo it.

01:59:01.000 They are...

01:59:02.000 The stories don't always end up...

01:59:05.000 They don't...

01:59:08.000 This morning...

01:59:12.000 A dear friend of Jason and I, you know, Jason helped send him out to Vegas with his new wife.

01:59:18.000 He just got out in Pennsylvania for something he didn't do.

01:59:23.000 He went to Vegas, I think, for the first time, sat down at the airport and dropped dead yesterday.

01:59:29.000 His name is Cory Walker.

01:59:32.000 And you can read about it online, about the framing of Cory Walker and Lorenzo Wright.

01:59:41.000 They think he might have died of an embolism.

01:59:45.000 I have to think that what happened to him might have killed him, right?

01:59:48.000 I don't know for sure.

01:59:49.000 But these guys don't get medical care, these guys and gals, and it's just that, you know, I have clients that smoke a cigarette and stomp it out and then pick it up and put it in a baggie because they're afraid they're going to get framed again.

02:00:04.000 They're paranoid.

02:00:06.000 They live under a cloud of suspicion for the rest of their lives because oftentimes what we call an exoneration, states will say, is just not enough evidence to proceed with another prosecution because they know that when they admit that they're wrong,

02:00:21.000 speaking of right and wrong, they're going to get sued.

02:00:23.000 So the cloud of guilt still hangs over that person's head.

02:00:27.000 And especially the way the rest of the people look at it.

02:00:30.000 Like, oh, he didn't get exonerated.

02:00:32.000 They just didn't have enough evidence.

02:00:37.000 It's scary when you're on the outside of it.

02:00:41.000 I can't imagine being one of those guys.

02:00:44.000 I remember reading this story about a guy who got set up, I believe it was by the FBI. He was kind of like mentally impaired.

02:00:52.000 There was something wrong with him. 0.89

02:00:53.000 And they tricked this guy into detonating a bomb that didn't exist.

02:01:00.000 It wasn't a real bomb.

02:01:02.000 I believe it was in Dallas.

02:01:04.000 See if you can find this.

02:01:07.000 FBI tricks...

02:01:08.000 FBI prosecutes man for...

02:01:11.000 It was like some sort of a sting with a bomb that you set off with a cell phone.

02:01:15.000 And the moment he went to press the buttons, they move in and get him.

02:01:19.000 But they gave him the bomb.

02:01:20.000 They set him up.

02:01:21.000 They gave him the idea.

02:01:23.000 The whole thing.

02:01:24.000 They told him what to do.

02:01:25.000 And this guy was like this wannabe terrorist.

02:01:28.000 And he was probably just a guy who's not that bright.

02:01:34.000 Who got talked into doing something.

02:01:35.000 You know, there's a legal concept that should cover that.

02:01:38.000 It's called entrapment.

02:01:39.000 Yeah.

02:01:39.000 And they don't, you know, it doesn't get credited enough.

02:01:42.000 You know, there's a big push right now, a big reform push, to make it illegal for police to lie to suspects during interrogations.

02:01:51.000 To say, hey, we know your friend told us this, so we know you have it.

02:01:55.000 Yeah, and it's an accepted practice in all 50 states.

02:01:58.000 It's starting to get attention.

02:02:00.000 And, you know, it is a devastating...

02:02:03.000 talk about psychological warfare.

02:02:05.000 This is devastating psychological hand-to-hand combat.

02:02:10.000 When you lock someone in a room, a windowless room, deprive them of food, sleep, communication to the outside world, and say, we have your fingerprints on the murder weapon.

02:02:19.000 And they don't.

02:02:20.000 And they don't.

02:02:21.000 And they can do it.

02:02:22.000 That's crazy.

02:02:23.000 That's crazy.

02:02:24.000 And now, is this recorded?

02:02:25.000 And can that be reviewed after the fact?

02:02:29.000 They're allowed to do it.

02:02:30.000 It doesn't matter.

02:02:30.000 They're allowed to do that.

02:02:31.000 They're allowed to do it.

02:02:32.000 So if you play that in court and then you say, you know, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, there was no fingerprints on the weapon.

02:02:38.000 He did not have – he was lying here.

02:02:40.000 Because the convention – yeah, they can do it and the convention – Okay, yeah, this is the guy.

02:02:47.000 He was provided a fake bomb by the FBI agents posing as members of Al-Qaeda.

02:02:51.000 He placed the device in the parking garage under the building and activated it with a cell phone.

02:02:55.000 Instead of setting off a bomb, the cell phone rang a phone number at the FBI offices.

02:03:01.000 Samadhi pleaded guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.

02:03:04.000 Under the terms of a plea bargain, an additional charge of bombing a public place was dropped and a sentence of not more than 30 years was recommended.

02:03:13.000 On October 20th, 2010, he was sentenced to 24 years of imprisonment.

02:03:18.000 He will be deported from the United States after serving a sentence.

02:03:21.000 So this is really crazy.

02:03:23.000 He was a citizen of Jordan.

02:03:28.000 And he was unaware that he was under continuous surveillance and that the other members of the sleeper cell were all federal agents.

02:03:35.000 So it was a fake sleeper cell. 0.99

02:03:37.000 So this guy was like in this group of people that he thought were all terrorists, and he was going to be the fucking man. 0.99

02:03:45.000 You're going to do this. 1.00

02:03:46.000 You're the fucking guy. 1.00

02:03:47.000 They give him the bomb. 1.00

02:03:48.000 He's on this mission.

02:03:50.000 They talked him into it.

02:03:51.000 They give him a fake bomb.

02:03:53.000 Like, how is that...

02:03:55.000 Legal.

02:03:55.000 Listen.

02:03:56.000 Do you know what I'm saying?

02:03:57.000 I'm acutely aware of what you're saying and the sense of injustice and just how wrong that feels to you.

02:04:05.000 It feels wrong, but it also feels wrong that a guy could press the buttons on the cell phone to blow up the building.

02:04:09.000 So I'm torn.

02:04:12.000 But what I had heard, see if they find that there, that he was mentally impaired.

02:04:16.000 There was something wrong with him.

02:04:17.000 You can't play to someone's, assuming there's mental impairment or not, There's no place for law enforcement to set up a situation where they're playing to someone's mental illness or proclivity to commit crime. 0.97

02:04:30.000 What the fuck are we doing as a society when we're saying to someone, here, just do it. 0.93

02:04:34.000 You know you want to do it. 0.99

02:04:35.000 Think about all those facts.

02:04:37.000 There was no real sleeper cell.

02:04:38.000 There was no real bomb.

02:04:39.000 There was no plot.

02:04:40.000 They made him do it.

02:04:42.000 They talked him into doing it, and then when he did it, they're like, gotcha!

02:04:46.000 He's only 19 also.

02:04:49.000 Wow.

02:04:49.000 19 and from Jordan, right?

02:04:53.000 One of the things you can do, one thing I know works is Pressure breaks pipes, okay?

02:05:02.000 It's that way in sports, it's that way in, you know, reform, and it's that way in these prosecutions.

02:05:11.000 The more people we can get to pay attention, right?

02:05:15.000 And, you know, people feel powerless and then they default to doing nothing, right?

02:05:20.000 And I think what we have an opportunity to do is once we get people interested and affected You know, you are not only interested, but you're affected.

02:05:29.000 We can get people to pay attention and do things.

02:05:32.000 What would be really cool is if whether it was once a quarter, biannually, we had an exoneree with us on the show or a case or cases where we can have a call to action and people can take action, we will get exonerations. 0.99

02:05:49.000 If it's a reform initiative, like making sure that people don't lie to suspects in jail, you have to pressure these fucking politicians and embarrass them into doing shit sometimes.

02:06:01.000 I know of no more powerful tool Than using the press so that a politician feels like, you know what? 0.98

02:06:12.000 Let's play to their sense of, let me not burn my constituents.

02:06:17.000 Okay.

02:06:18.000 Well, if your constituents are all saying, don't do this anymore or make this practice end, whether it's lying to people or it's cash bail, where we just know that people are staying in jail because they don't have the money to get out.

02:06:31.000 You know, you can make these practices end if they feel like there's a legal threat, and let me qualify that, where there's, you know, the legal threat is, the threat is, I might not get reelected.

02:06:45.000 People won't like me as much.

02:06:47.000 This is going to be an unpopular decision.

02:06:49.000 The more we can get people interested in tapping into the sense of injustice about whatever issue it is, the more results we're going to get.

02:06:57.000 Because if I can change Or be able to get to a point where, you know, the chairman of Marvel, who's a right-wing, not a right-wing, he's a Republican, who's best friends with Donald Trump, was so affected.

02:07:13.000 And the guy's become one of my closest friends.

02:07:16.000 We have political differences.

02:07:19.000 We have differences in approach.

02:07:21.000 He's in his 70s, an Israeli, and he doesn't have kids.

02:07:24.000 We couldn't be more opposite on paper.

02:07:27.000 My kids call him Uncle Ike now because they saw what he did.

02:07:31.000 They saw that he took his time to help someone.

02:07:34.000 If I could change the way that man thinks or open his eyes and his wife Lori to that, so much that they went to the President of the United States and said, you need to help us.

02:07:44.000 And I don't care about all the other people that people say, oh, but he exonerated or he gave...

02:07:49.000 Presidential pardon to this guy and that guy.

02:07:51.000 Okay, but he also gave a pardon to Juwan Moussa, and he gave a pardon to other people that deserved it.

02:07:57.000 I don't care if it was for his political gain or not.

02:07:59.000 I think the more we can do that, the more we can make a difference.

02:08:02.000 For sure.

02:08:03.000 And just because someone's a Republican doesn't mean they're evil.

02:08:06.000 They're usually just conservative fiscally, and they want things that are good for their business.

02:08:10.000 That's a lot of people.

02:08:11.000 We've got this narrative in this country that there's good people and bad people.

02:08:14.000 We've got this narrative that there's people that care about people, and those are the people on the left, and there's people that are evil, and those are the people on the right.

02:08:21.000 And a lot of that is exacerbated by the way Donald Trump treated the press and treated people and talked about things, and it ramped up this us versus them, which was already a problem.

02:08:32.000 There was already a tribal problem in this country, but Trump's method of rallying the troops Well, obviously, a lot of people felt that led to the January 6th invasion of the Capitol. 0.97

02:08:45.000 All that stuff is connected together for the reason why people think about people on the right as being evil and stupid and the party that's wrong and everything that's wrong with America. 0.92

02:08:56.000 But there's a lot of people that are Republican that are very good people. 0.98

02:08:59.000 They just have values that are different than some of the people on the left.

02:09:02.000 And there's a lot of people on the right that believe in a woman's right to choose, and they believe in civil rights, and they believe in gay rights, and trans rights, and all these things that a lot of people stand for, but they don't agree with it fiscally and economically with the people on the left.

02:09:16.000 Fiscally and economically, they think that the ideas of democratic socialism are just not founded in any real basis of human nature and any real logic.

02:09:27.000 They don't think it's going to work.

02:09:28.000 They think this is frivolous and they spend too much money on these programs and they waste it on bureaucracy and so they vote Republican.

02:09:34.000 But they're not bad people.

02:09:36.000 I know a lot of people like that.

02:09:37.000 We have a bad narrative in this country that if you're a person on the left you're not supposed to be talking to a person on the right.

02:09:43.000 And if you do they accuse you of being a right-wing person.

02:09:47.000 I get accused of being a right-wing person all the time because I've had a bunch of right-wing people on the podcast and I've had civil conversations with them.

02:09:55.000 But conversely, I have a lot of left-wing people on the podcast and I have civil conversations with them.

02:10:00.000 I never get accused of being some radical lefty.

02:10:03.000 I don't because it's not convenient to slander someone or to put someone in that category, to mischaracterize someone.

02:10:10.000 But you can mischaracterize someone as a right-wing person and it does two things.

02:10:14.000 One, it makes you self-censor.

02:10:16.000 So for someone like me that interviews people and talks to people, has conversations with people, I should say, it makes you not want to have controversial figures on because then you get attacked.

02:10:27.000 And then people who hear about it are like, well, I'm not that.

02:10:31.000 Why are they saying that?

02:10:32.000 Why are they saying that about me?

02:10:33.000 Oh, they're saying that about me because I had that guy on.

02:10:36.000 I had Ben Shapiro on or I had Dan Crenshaw on.

02:10:38.000 Well, you know what?

02:10:39.000 I'll probably not have those guys on again because last time I had them on, people got mad at me.

02:10:43.000 And that's what's going on, man.

02:10:44.000 People self-censor.

02:10:47.000 And what it does is it makes people more tribal.

02:10:49.000 They separate even further.

02:10:51.000 They get more polarized.

02:10:53.000 And it's not good for anybody. 0.97

02:10:54.000 The only way to find common ground is to have communication with people that you might have differences in philosophy or politics or whatever the fuck your difference is.

02:11:03.000 But as a civil person, as a person who can have a nice civil conversation with someone.

02:11:08.000 You should be able to have conversations with people that you don't agree with everything on.

02:11:11.000 And maybe you could find common ground.

02:11:13.000 And that's what you found with that guy.

02:11:14.000 His common ground is his humanity.

02:11:16.000 His common ground is maybe he's a Republican.

02:11:18.000 Maybe he's friends with Donald Trump.

02:11:19.000 Maybe he's a billionaire that's protecting all that money.

02:11:21.000 But at the end of the day, he's a human being with a heart.

02:11:24.000 And he cares.

02:11:25.000 And he doesn't want someone to be in jail for something they didn't do.

02:11:28.000 And that's how we all feel.

02:11:30.000 And I think that's how we all feel about anybody.

02:11:32.000 Because it could be your son.

02:11:34.000 It could be your daughter.

02:11:35.000 It could be your brother.

02:11:36.000 Anyone could get wrongly accused. 1.00

02:11:38.000 And you could be under the grip of an evil prosecutor and a corrupt cop, and then you're fucked. 1.00

02:11:44.000 And then that becomes your life. 1.00

02:11:46.000 And then the next 10 years, 15, whatever years, that's your life now.

02:11:49.000 Because you got stuck into this system, and when you weren't in that system, you didn't care.

02:11:55.000 Because you're like, why am I spending time worrying about this system when it doesn't even affect me?

02:11:59.000 Well, look, what you say hits me on so many levels because...

02:12:03.000 Dude, I gotta pee so bad.

02:12:04.000 So do I. Thank you.

02:12:07.000 We'll pause.

02:12:08.000 We'll be right back.

02:12:09.000 You rolling?

02:12:10.000 Okay.

02:12:10.000 So, where were we?

02:12:11.000 Well, what I was going to say was, besides thank you...

02:12:19.000 Was, you should not be the exception to the rule.

02:12:23.000 And, you know, it's unfortunate that you are.

02:12:26.000 Because I learned that, you know, you have to be willing to take a step back because I could fall into that.

02:12:34.000 Our default should not be us versus them and this tribal mentality. 0.64

02:12:37.000 It's part of our DNA. It's part of who we are as mammals called human beings.

02:12:43.000 Right.

02:12:48.000 To this man could have literally cost someone his freedom. 1.00

02:12:55.000 So it was such a valuable lesson to me that I feel like we should be so much better than defaulting to, fuck you, I don't like you because of the way you think. 1.00

02:13:11.000 Or I'm not going to have anything to do with you. 1.00

02:13:13.000 Or I'm going to cancel you.

02:13:15.000 And it takes more.

02:13:17.000 There's more effort involved in getting to know someone.

02:13:20.000 We don't fall into neat boxes or neat categories of information that comprise who we are.

02:13:28.000 We're complicated.

02:13:29.000 Life is messy.

02:13:30.000 Human beings are messy.

02:13:31.000 When I pick juries, judges will often say, there's a big problem with jury selection in this country.

02:13:38.000 When someone's accused of a crime, In a federal court where your freedom is on the line, a jury is often seated in a couple of hours.

02:13:48.000 Someone could be facing 20 years in jail and judges think that they're the best at it.

02:13:53.000 Federal judges.

02:13:54.000 Now look, they're appointed by the president.

02:13:56.000 They deserve to be respected.

02:13:58.000 They're some of the most brilliant legal minds in the country. 0.99

02:14:00.000 I wrote a book with a former federal judge and she caught a lot of shit when she was on the bench. 0.96

02:14:07.000 Because she had this novel idea that attorneys in federal courts should be able to ask questions during jury selection. 0.97

02:14:14.000 You know, it's called voir dire, you know, to learn the search for the truth, you know, the Latin translation.

02:14:21.000 You should be able to say to someone, how many of you think that my client...

02:14:27.000 It's probably guilty because they were indicted.

02:14:30.000 The hands will fly up.

02:14:32.000 And judges never allow you to ask that question.

02:14:35.000 And here's what they do all the time.

02:14:37.000 And I'm going to relate it back to what you were saying.

02:14:39.000 Someone will say, you know what?

02:14:43.000 I have preconceived ideas about this case.

02:14:48.000 I read about your client in the press.

02:14:52.000 Certainly seems like they must have done something.

02:14:55.000 And the judge will say, but can you put that aside and be fair and impartial? 0.97

02:15:00.000 Now think about the mindfuck here, okay? 0.98

02:15:02.000 Think about this for a second. 0.99

02:15:04.000 You're in a room full of strangers.

02:15:07.000 Let's back up.

02:15:08.000 You start with the proposition that we all want to be able to view ourselves as fair and impartial people.

02:15:14.000 That's a given.

02:15:15.000 We all want to view ourselves as that.

02:15:17.000 Now that you're in a room full of strangers, do you want to admit that you're biased in any way?

02:15:24.000 Do you want to admit it to an authority figure? 0.98

02:15:26.000 Because there are certain kinds of bias that suck. 0.92

02:15:29.000 You know, bias against someone because of their, you know, sexual preference, their, you know, religion, their ethnicity. 0.99

02:15:37.000 Those are terrible, ugly biases.

02:15:39.000 But we're all biased.

02:15:41.000 We're all biased. 0.97

02:15:42.000 If you've been antagonized and fucked with by cops, you're not going to like cops very much. 0.60

02:15:47.000 If cops have done nothing but help you and your uncle, cousin, brother, and great uncle are cops, you're going to have reverence for them. 0.70

02:15:57.000 We view life through the lens of our life experiences.

02:16:04.000 But it's too much of an investment.

02:16:07.000 At the most critical moment of a trial, to sit and really think it through, is this the best person to be sitting in judgment of that accused person's freedom?

02:16:17.000 It takes more of an investment.

02:16:19.000 So to your point, you just articulated a very intelligent, tolerant view of other people who you may have differences with. 1.00

02:16:29.000 I have to confess, I didn't always have that approach, because it's easier just to say, fuck you, I disagree with you. 0.99

02:16:34.000 It's really easy. 0.99

02:16:36.000 And it's sad that we can't, as the most evolved...

02:16:39.000 It's encouraged, right?

02:16:41.000 What's that? 1.00

02:16:41.000 It's encouraged to say, fuck you. 1.00

02:16:43.000 It's encouraged. 1.00

02:16:44.000 Yeah, you got balls, you got this, you got that. 0.89

02:16:48.000 Other people in the tribe will let you know that they support you. 0.97

02:16:50.000 I like how you did that. 1.00

02:16:52.000 Tell those Republicans, go fuck off, or tell those Democrats to eat shit. 1.00

02:16:57.000 It's encouraged more than open discourse is encouraged. 1.00

02:17:05.000 It's much more encouraged to be openly tribal.

02:17:09.000 You know, and I think that you get, there's some endorphin rush when you tell someone off, I guess.

02:17:14.000 Some cheap sense of, I felt, I told them.

02:17:20.000 There's also an endorphin rush that you get from signaling to the tribe that you are committed.

02:17:24.000 You're committed to this ideology.

02:17:26.000 You're, you know...

02:17:27.000 Yeah, I never really thought about it that way.

02:17:30.000 People love that.

02:17:31.000 They love when the group supports them and that they support the group.

02:17:36.000 There's a lot of really ridiculous things that get pushed through based on ideology.

02:17:42.000 How about this whole case of transgender women in sports? 0.85

02:17:46.000 A lot of this is people supporting it because they're progressive, because they consider themselves good liberals, and they want inclusiveness, and so they say it's okay.

02:17:58.000 And they're looking at someone who's a man...

02:18:04.000 Who competed as a man and then switched over and became a woman and now is weightlifting and is breaking world records and they think it's good.

02:18:12.000 It's amazing.

02:18:13.000 It's inclusive.

02:18:14.000 It's like, no, this is not fair for biological women and you're not willing to look at it this way because you want to be pro-trans and you want to be pro-inclusivity and you want to be a good person.

02:18:25.000 And you're afraid of the backlash, frankly.

02:18:27.000 Exactly.

02:18:27.000 And by signaling that you're okay with all these things that are very controversial, hormone blockers for young people, there's a lot of these things that fall into this category that are super complicated.

02:18:38.000 And people immediately have a side.

02:18:41.000 It's like they've read the peer-reviewed papers and they've got this really well-informed opinion, but they don't.

02:18:47.000 They just have an opinion that supports their ideology.

02:18:50.000 And a lot of the times their ideology, whether it's someone who's pro-life, Or whether it's someone who's, you know, anti-trans participation in sports or pro-trans participation in women's sports.

02:19:02.000 These are complicated things a lot of times that people haven't thought out.

02:19:07.000 These really controversial third-rail subjects, they exist in so many different ways.

02:19:11.000 And prison reform is one of those.

02:19:13.000 If you talk to a lot of right-wing people on prison reform, they will give you a non-thought-out opinion. 1.00

02:19:18.000 Fuck that. 1.00

02:19:19.000 We need stricter sentencing. 1.00

02:19:20.000 We need more people in jail. 0.98

02:19:23.000 That'll drive you crazy, too, because it's like, hey, man, do you fucking know anybody in jail? 0.96

02:19:28.000 Do you know anybody who's been railroaded through the system? 0.95

02:19:31.000 Have you never committed a crime?

02:19:32.000 We've all committed.

02:19:33.000 Listen, man.

02:19:34.000 We've all, you know, what's the saying?

02:19:37.000 But for the grace of God, there go I. I mean, something like that.

02:19:41.000 I mean, for all the people that are saying that, how many of you got in a car after a few cocktails and, you know, chanced it?

02:19:49.000 Yeah.

02:19:50.000 And, you know, God forbid you hit someone and killed someone, you could be one of those people.

02:19:54.000 You could be one of those people, yeah.

02:19:55.000 And, you know, I think that the only thing that—because sometimes I feel overwhelmed and feel like, can you ever change the conscience of an entire, you know, country?

02:20:08.000 Probably not.

02:20:09.000 But, look, the Baltimore Sun did a front-page story on the exoneration of Jawad Musa.

02:20:17.000 And it talked about my involvement with Ike Perlmutter and how Ike Perlmutter did this.

02:20:23.000 It was the first public interview Ike had done in over, I think, 36 years.

02:20:28.000 He wouldn't speak to the press.

02:20:30.000 And I encouraged him.

02:20:31.000 I said, people need to know because...

02:20:35.000 The way we break this cycle of characterizing someone, you're this, therefore you will act like that.

02:20:42.000 The way that that breaks is by telling the story as much as you can that, you know, here are two people that couldn't be more different.

02:20:51.000 I was afraid that he would see tattoos on me and make a judgment about me.

02:20:57.000 And I would always wear long-sleeved shirts around him because I didn't want to offend him before I got to know him.

02:21:02.000 Is he Jewish?

02:21:02.000 Yeah, he's Jewish.

02:21:03.000 So he's probably like, you're not going into the right cemetery, you piece of shit. 1.00

02:21:06.000 What are you doing with these? 1.00

02:21:07.000 And you know what?

02:21:09.000 The first time, not only is he Jewish, but he fought in the Israeli army in the Six-Day War and won't talk about it.

02:21:16.000 He came to this country with literally 200 bucks and would translate at funerals.

02:21:26.000 Hebrew to English, because he knew English.

02:21:28.000 That was his first job. 1.00

02:21:30.000 Selling shit on the streets. 0.99

02:21:32.000 I mean, here's a guy that came here with nothing. 1.00

02:21:33.000 And when I finally said to him, once we got to know each other better, they did the interview of me for this Baltimore Sun piece.

02:21:42.000 And they were FaceTiming with me and took a screenshot and didn't tell me.

02:21:47.000 And then that got printed in the paper. 0.99

02:21:49.000 And I was like, shit, this guy who I built this relationship with, I said, did you think twice? 1.00

02:21:55.000 He said, are you crazy? 1.00

02:21:56.000 Do you think I care about that? 0.94

02:21:57.000 And here I was worried about something that didn't require being worried about because I made an assumption.

02:22:03.000 And I think that that's where we go wrong a lot.

02:22:05.000 We assume...

02:22:07.000 Words are a cheap excuse.

02:22:09.000 How are you doing today?

02:22:10.000 Fine.

02:22:11.000 How are you doing today?

02:22:13.000 Okay.

02:22:13.000 Great.

02:22:14.000 And who the fuck knows what we're actually thinking? 0.97

02:22:16.000 If we just take a little bit more time to hear people out, I think you can start to see that we're more similar than we are different. 0.98

02:22:25.000 And look, this behavior is learned.

02:22:29.000 I watch my own kids and I see how they feel.

02:22:32.000 It makes them feel good to help other people.

02:22:35.000 And I don't think that that's a Democratic thing or a Republican thing.

02:22:40.000 I don't think that that's whether you're fiscally conservative or if you believe in socialism.

02:22:46.000 I just think that what is innate in us is to help each other and to do something.

02:22:52.000 That is the drug that I'm addicted to now.

02:22:55.000 Yeah, you know and I think that as corny as it sounds the more that we can you meet somebody that has survived a wrongful incarceration or any type of incarceration these people You know, I would be a puddle on the floor to have to endure what some of these people have gone through.

02:23:15.000 And the fact that they can make it and just be functioning human beings on the other side blows my mind.

02:23:23.000 And I find I learn more from people like that than I do from someone preaching to me about how my ideology is wrong because I'm a Democrat or an Independent or a Republican.

02:23:34.000 And I just think that, unfortunately, we're lazy.

02:23:40.000 We're lazy in certain regards.

02:23:42.000 Well, it's easy to be lazy in that regard.

02:23:44.000 It's easy to categorize people in a certain way or to have only a casual communication with someone, not have a deep conversation.

02:23:51.000 Deep conversations are hard and they require honesty.

02:23:54.000 You have to get past the shell.

02:23:56.000 You've got to put out the facade that you put up when you communicate with people.

02:24:00.000 You've got to get through that and you've got to let them in.

02:24:02.000 It's very hard to be vulnerable.

02:24:04.000 It's very hard to be honest and to really think about how you really feel about things and why you feel about those things.

02:24:10.000 And then when you're looking at something that seems so insurmountable like the legal system and someone who's stuck in the legal system unfairly, and then you think, well, how many more of these people are like this out there?

02:24:22.000 How many more people are having their lives ruined because of circumstance, because of their economic status, because of their racial status, because of who they are in life and things completely outside of their control?

02:24:36.000 Uncontrollable variables that have left them in this situation where their life is now going to be spent rotting away inside a cage.

02:24:43.000 Yeah, and I think it's also—it requires a certain bit of understanding.

02:24:49.000 You know, like, even me, I'll tell you this.

02:24:52.000 I used to, in my mind, demonize bad cops or demonize cops in cases that I was involved in.

02:25:00.000 And I learned a real valuable lesson from Barry Sheck, who was one of the two founders of the Innocence Project.

02:25:07.000 He came to see me in court, and this was a case where my clients were framed outright.

02:25:17.000 They took, the police took the hair of the victim and planted it in his van.

02:25:23.000 Okay?

02:25:24.000 Oh yeah, you told me about this.

02:25:26.000 Because of the hair root.

02:25:27.000 Exactly.

02:25:28.000 So I told you about this.

02:25:29.000 So I would always think that these were bad cops.

02:25:33.000 And a lot of times it's not.

02:25:35.000 They're just trying to make...

02:25:37.000 They think the guy's guilty.

02:25:40.000 Right.

02:25:40.000 And they want to make it stick.

02:25:41.000 Yeah.

02:25:42.000 And I think that it's that same level of understanding you have to have and apply it in different areas.

02:25:47.000 I find it like a puzzle.

02:25:49.000 You know, I told you about that before, so I find it like a puzzle trying to figure out, okay, well, how can I find out to sort of get in touch with this person's humanity?

02:25:58.000 And if you can get in touch with it, you know, I think that you can make change happen.

02:26:04.000 And when you can make change happen, and it's to help people that otherwise wouldn't have...

02:26:08.000 You see, the thing that I guess is most frustrating is that it starts with recognition, which drives me absolutely fucking insane. 0.98

02:26:27.000 I fucking hate that. 0.99

02:26:30.000 It fucking drives me insane. 1.00

02:26:32.000 It's one of the most heartless perspectives. 1.00

02:26:35.000 It's let them eat cake. 0.99

02:26:37.000 Yes.

02:26:37.000 It's a version of let them escape.

02:26:38.000 That's exactly right.

02:26:39.000 Yeah.

02:26:40.000 And I lost a close friend over it, someone that I grew up with, where I just had enough of it.

02:26:45.000 And it's like, you know, to me, it's so simple that you can't see, like, what happened.

02:26:52.000 It's pretty obvious that you talk about whether it's African Americans, whether it's, you know...

02:27:00.000 Immigrants.

02:27:00.000 Immigrants of any kind.

02:27:02.000 Look, you know, so many of my clients were...

02:27:05.000 Where, you know, it doesn't have to be some outward manifestation of it, like, let's get him because he's the Latin guy, or let's get him because he's the black guy.

02:27:14.000 When you see that they're only investigating, you know, undocumented immigrants, and not the white girl who actually committed the crime, it's pretty obvious what's going on there, right? 0.56

02:27:24.000 Any old undocumented Latin man will do, you know, or any old black guy will do. 1.00

02:27:30.000 And, you know, unfortunately, that is the, you know, that's the mentality.

02:27:35.000 And once you realize that it's not always a conscious decision that they're making, you know, there are ways that you can fight back against this.

02:27:43.000 And if I could get the chairman of Marvel to care enough that he wants to start, you know, something at, you know, we're going to start something together at Cardozo Law School, which is where the Innocence Project was born.

02:27:54.000 And it's going to be called some form of the Perlmutter Center for Criminal Justice Reform or for Legal Reform.

02:28:02.000 We're going to have something called the Redemption Project where we seek to redeem people that whether it's a bad conviction based on DNA or bad forensic science or just that it's some disproportionate sentence for someone that deserves a second chance.

02:28:19.000 We're going to get law students involved in it. 0.79

02:28:22.000 You know, if I can do that just by making him care, he had to care in the first place, he and his wife.

02:28:29.000 They're remarkable people.

02:28:31.000 They gave...

02:28:34.000 An untold fortune to the NYU Cancer Center is called the Perlmutter Cancer Center.

02:28:39.000 And there's another example, right?

02:28:41.000 Oh, he's just some billionaire.

02:28:43.000 He's giving away hundreds of millions of dollars as a philanthropist.

02:28:47.000 Yeah, but that is a majority of that some billionaire thing.

02:28:50.000 It's such a weird one because we put these people into a negative category.

02:28:56.000 We put uber-successful people, businessmen in particular, into this negative category. 0.98

02:29:00.000 They have to be heartless or shitheads or... 0.99

02:29:03.000 Oh, he's one of those guys. 0.99

02:29:05.000 Some people are billionaires just because they had an amazing product.

02:29:09.000 I mean, there's a shit ton of them out there.

02:29:13.000 But we decide that if someone is really successful in business in particular, that they have to be a bad person. 1.00

02:29:20.000 It's just a fucking billionaire. 1.00

02:29:21.000 Isn't it a fucking irony? 1.00

02:29:23.000 It's so strange. 0.99

02:29:24.000 We have politicians. 1.00

02:29:25.000 Fucking tax the rich. 1.00

02:29:27.000 AOC sells shirts for like, how much were those shirts? 1.00

02:29:30.000 They were really expensive.

02:29:31.000 Sweaters.

02:29:33.000 But I don't get it.

02:29:35.000 So you work your whole life.

02:29:36.000 Maybe you went to charity.

02:29:37.000 To try to break the cycle, right?

02:29:39.000 And you do great things along the way.

02:29:41.000 And then once you make it to where you're told you have to strive to be, you're torn down.

02:29:47.000 Yeah, well, we don't like winners.

02:29:49.000 We do like winners, but we don't like winners, right?

02:29:51.000 Thank you, sir.

02:29:53.000 We like winners, but we don't like when they win too hard.

02:29:56.000 Well, how about this?

02:29:58.000 And you'll probably shut me up because you'll tell me...

02:30:03.000 You don't know?

02:30:04.000 You don't know my opinion?

02:30:05.000 It'll sound like blowing smoke.

02:30:07.000 I was taken aback when I first got to know you.

02:30:11.000 And I was taken aback by the fact that you were rooting people on.

02:30:15.000 Right?

02:30:17.000 Here's a guy that genuinely...

02:30:18.000 Like, outside of what the public sees about you...

02:30:21.000 You know, here's a guy that wants to see people succeed.

02:30:24.000 And I remember thinking to myself... 0.99

02:30:27.000 What the fuck is up with this? 0.99

02:30:29.000 And I had to stop and say, wait a second. 0.99

02:30:32.000 Isn't that the way it should be?

02:30:34.000 You know, like, you genuinely want people to do well and succeed.

02:30:38.000 But I have been conditioned that other people are always...

02:30:42.000 You know, I think that it's like when you achieve some modicum of success, people are trying to tear you down or poke holes in you.

02:30:49.000 And it was like a breath of fresh air to me.

02:30:51.000 And that's the way you sort of...

02:30:54.000 You never knew that I thought this, but it kind of lit a match...

02:30:58.000 You know, under my body, like, look, lift people up more.

02:31:02.000 Because when you lift people up, it sort of changes their perspective.

02:31:06.000 And I think that it's bothersome to me that, you know, we are hardwired as human beings.

02:31:14.000 You know, as the rule rather than the exception, to want to, like, sort of tear each other down in a way that's so unproductive and unhealthy that I sometimes am like, can you really make a difference on a macro level?

02:31:27.000 I don't know.

02:31:28.000 Well, the tearing down and the building up thing, to me, the tearing down thing is 100% insecurity.

02:31:35.000 We're all insecure, right?

02:31:37.000 No one is enlightened.

02:31:38.000 No one has achieved this perfect state of bliss.

02:31:42.000 But the insecurity involved in tearing down people just because you find them threatening because they're successful is an intolerable weakness to me.

02:31:52.000 Intolerable to me.

02:31:54.000 I mean, I understand it when I see it in other people.

02:31:56.000 I will not tolerate it myself.

02:31:58.000 I just think it is a terrible way to look at things.

02:32:02.000 Because anybody who is successful in anything, you can learn something from them that will make you better at what you do.

02:32:08.000 Whatever you do. 0.99

02:32:08.000 I don't care if you're a fucking painter or a singer. 0.99

02:32:10.000 If you see someone who's kicking ass and someone that has some incredible level of discipline and focus, you can get something out of that, man. 0.99

02:32:18.000 You can get something out of a song. 0.59

02:32:20.000 You can get something out of a book. 0.99

02:32:21.000 You certainly can get something out of people that are kicking ass. 0.93

02:32:24.000 Now, if you see someone out there that's kicking ass, the idea that somehow or another that takes away from you in any way, shape, or form is crazy. 0.95

02:32:33.000 I love it.

02:32:34.000 I love when people do well.

02:32:36.000 I love when I see people pull themselves up when they're not doing so good and then all of a sudden they are.

02:32:41.000 I love when people lose weight.

02:32:42.000 It's one of my favorite things.

02:32:43.000 I have people in here that lost 100 pounds. 0.99

02:32:45.000 I'm like, fuck yeah. 0.99

02:32:46.000 I know how hard that is. 1.00

02:32:48.000 So hard.

02:32:48.000 It's incredible to see someone do something like that.

02:32:51.000 I love when people get successful.

02:32:53.000 I love when people have a great attitude towards things and they help others.

02:32:58.000 But I genuinely love pumping people up.

02:33:02.000 I genuinely love encouraging people, and I love people getting successful.

02:33:06.000 And doesn't it feel good when you do that?

02:33:08.000 You know, I had this thing happen.

02:33:10.000 I told you before, my son, he's nine now.

02:33:14.000 When he was six, he got diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, right?

02:33:17.000 And, you know, I took him...

02:33:19.000 My wife said, look, he loves sneakers.

02:33:22.000 Like, we would collect, you know, Nikes, and he loved Air Jordans, and we...

02:33:27.000 My wife said, well, there's this thing that a parent at the school owns this sneaker store in Manhattan in the Lower East Side.

02:33:36.000 I go to this thing where they're going to explain the history behind Air Jordan and Nike.

02:33:42.000 And I'm at this place, at this sneaker store, and they're not new.

02:33:50.000 They're like second-hand sneakers.

02:33:51.000 They're brand new sneakers, but they're not sold by Nike.

02:33:55.000 They're like these rare Air Jordans, not even so rare. 0.98

02:33:58.000 And I'm sitting here with my son, watching this guy, and the whole time I'm thinking to myself, this poor schmuck. 0.99

02:34:04.000 How the fuck is he going through his existence and how did he end up in the second-hand sneaker sales business? 0.99

02:34:13.000 And I'm sitting there feeling bad for him, thinking they must be on some sort of financial aid. 0.99

02:34:18.000 And I leave with my son and I Google him.

02:34:22.000 And see that he just sold the company for $250 million.

02:34:28.000 There it is.

02:34:30.000 I know exactly who you're talking about.

02:34:31.000 Wow.

02:34:32.000 So I have become...

02:34:34.000 Listen to this.

02:34:36.000 I have become...

02:34:37.000 This guy's become like a brother to me.

02:34:39.000 His name is John McPheeters, right?

02:34:41.000 He's just some knock-around guy from Manhattan.

02:34:44.000 Who made it.

02:34:45.000 And we have become super tight friends.

02:34:48.000 His son is friends with my kid.

02:34:51.000 His wife is this dynamite person.

02:34:53.000 And he's a guy that I'm like, I've told him the story of what I was thinking.

02:34:58.000 And I'm so happy for him.

02:35:00.000 I really am.

02:35:00.000 And it feels good to be happy for him.

02:35:02.000 And he will like read about a case.

02:35:05.000 And send me like that a boy.

02:35:07.000 And I'm like, dude, where's this guy been?

02:35:09.000 It's great to have someone like that in your life.

02:35:11.000 And I'm so happy.

02:35:13.000 What are the odds? 0.99

02:35:14.000 And he went through a shit storm to build up this business. 0.99

02:35:19.000 He worked at this sneaker place and that sneaker place. 0.99

02:35:21.000 He traveled all over the world.

02:35:22.000 And him and his partner built that up.

02:35:25.000 It blows my mind and I love it.

02:35:27.000 And it feels good to root for him, you know?

02:35:29.000 That's amazing. 0.95

02:35:30.000 Yeah, stories like that are fucking awesome. 0.90

02:35:33.000 You know, stories like that, that's one of the reasons why I like fighting. 0.90

02:35:36.000 I like athletics.

02:35:37.000 I know how hard it is for someone to get really great.

02:35:40.000 You know, and you can be around those people.

02:35:43.000 It's one of the things about fighting in particular, when you can be around a champion and you watch what they've done and how they can improve and achieve and how they can, you know, become a guy like Canelo Alvarez or a guy like, you know, Francis Ngannou or fill in the blank, whoever it is.

02:35:58.000 That's an exceptional person.

02:36:00.000 You can learn something from what they did.

02:36:02.000 That's one of the hardest things in the world to do.

02:36:04.000 Now, that guy's story, Francis and Donna.

02:36:06.000 It's incredible.

02:36:07.000 Oh, my God.

02:36:08.000 Incredible.

02:36:08.000 I was openly weeping.

02:36:10.000 I knew that he had worked in a sand mine when he was a boy.

02:36:13.000 I did not have any idea the extent of the journey that he outlined when he was on the show.

02:36:19.000 And he was explaining how his trip to try to escape from Cameroon and make it to Europe took 14 months.

02:36:27.000 And that they caught him and captured him seven times and sent him back to the Sahara Desert to die. 0.99

02:36:33.000 Like, holy shit. 0.99

02:36:34.000 I could not believe that a man as big as he was surviving in the physical circumstances that they put him in. 0.99

02:36:43.000 It seemed like there needs to be a movie made about the guy's life.

02:36:47.000 There probably will be one day.

02:36:49.000 It's unbelievable. 0.99

02:36:50.000 And also, he's probably the scariest fucking heavyweight that's ever lived. 0.99

02:36:55.000 I'd love to see him box. 0.99

02:36:57.000 He probably could do well.

02:36:59.000 Well, first of all, his power is extraordinary.

02:37:02.000 I mean, just really, truly extraordinary.

02:37:04.000 It's something to behold.

02:37:06.000 Seems like a dynamite human being, too.

02:37:08.000 He's a natural 275. Wow.

02:37:10.000 Yeah.

02:37:11.000 A natural.

02:37:11.000 How tall is he?

02:37:12.000 6'4"?

02:37:13.000 Is he 6'4"?

02:37:14.000 6'4", I think?

02:37:16.000 6'5"?

02:37:17.000 He's a big fella.

02:37:19.000 He's a very nice guy, too.

02:37:22.000 Super sweet guy and soft-spoken.

02:37:24.000 I mean, the guy telling his story.

02:37:26.000 I mean, you could see in his face the lessons that he learned and who he became from that 14-month journey, two of those months in prison in Europe.

02:37:37.000 Yeah, the part of the story where he is captured, I think it was for like the fifth or sixth time, and I think he said to you, like, I thought it was over for me then.

02:37:49.000 I didn't know what they were going to do to me, something like that, but I knew it was going to be something bad.

02:37:57.000 Look, those kinds of stories should be not only told but celebrated, right?

02:38:03.000 Yeah, for sure.

02:38:04.000 So I love it when somebody makes it.

02:38:06.000 Look, and I think that that's what attracts me to guys and stories like, you know, Andre Ward, for instance.

02:38:14.000 We talked about him earlier.

02:38:17.000 When you surround yourself with people like that, it makes you want to be better.

02:38:21.000 Yeah, it rubs off on you, for sure.

02:38:22.000 It definitely does.

02:38:23.000 You know, and here's the thing that's very interesting about the Francis Ngannou thing.

02:38:27.000 What he did was not legal, okay?

02:38:31.000 I mean, there's a difference between something that's not legal and something that's admirable.

02:38:35.000 It's also admirable.

02:38:37.000 It's not legal, what he did.

02:38:38.000 But thank God he did it.

02:38:41.000 Right?

02:38:41.000 Well, he had to.

02:38:42.000 Well, you know, there's people in Cameroon right now that never did that, right?

02:38:46.000 But he decided that he had to.

02:38:48.000 That was his journey.

02:38:49.000 And obviously, now it's become an insane success story.

02:38:53.000 He's the heavyweight champion of the world.

02:38:55.000 Not just the heavyweight champion, but he knocked out the most successful heavyweight of all time.

02:38:59.000 Stipe, right?

02:39:01.000 I don't know.

02:39:02.000 Right now I think the plan is, there's not a date booked, but the plan is, I guess, for him to have a rematch with Derrick Lewis because I think Jon Jones wants more time to get to heavyweight and he wants more money.

02:39:14.000 I think one of the ways he thinks he's going to get more money is if Francis beats Derrick Lewis, which is a big if because Derrick beat him the last time they fought.

02:39:23.000 Then Jon Jones gets to say, hey, there's no real big money contenders out here.

02:39:30.000 I'm the guy. 0.92

02:39:31.000 I'm the fucking greatest light heavyweight of all time. 0.96

02:39:33.000 Arguably the greatest mixed martial arts fighter of all time. 0.98

02:39:36.000 I'm ready.

02:39:37.000 Let's go.

02:39:37.000 The way you're moved by his story...

02:39:42.000 I'm moved that way, and I think you would be.

02:39:45.000 And I guess I'm angling for it by some of these exonerees.

02:39:51.000 When you hear them tell you what they had to survive, be it on death row or avoiding gang violence or sexual assault, sometimes they're not able to avoid it,

02:40:07.000 any of the above.

02:40:09.000 And the stories of, you know, I think what we're attracted to also, it's not just success.

02:40:14.000 It's, you know, endurance and beating the odds.

02:40:17.000 And you're right.

02:40:19.000 It's all, you know, when you were talking earlier about it being rooted in insecurity, it is.

02:40:25.000 Because I think, like, I put myself in those shoes and say, I don't know if I could survive that.

02:40:31.000 Right.

02:40:32.000 And then I think our natural instinct is to say, all right, so let me tear it down.

02:40:36.000 And you have to be able to get past that and say, you know what, let me just marvel at this person for what they were able to do.

02:40:42.000 You know, like, I got arrested when I was on my way to my office in a case against Don King.

02:40:50.000 I was representing terrible Terry Norris.

02:40:53.000 Oh, wow.

02:40:54.000 I remember Terry.

02:40:55.000 And it was an awful case.

02:41:01.000 Don was accused of giving a loan that was a 24-hour demand note to Terry Norris' manager, meaning that if this guy did not pay Don in 24 hours, Don King could take his property,

02:41:17.000 take his home from him.

02:41:18.000 How much was the loan?

02:41:20.000 I forget what it was, several hundred thousand dollars.

02:41:22.000 And he only had 24 hours to pay it back?

02:41:24.000 If Don ever said, I want it in 24 hours, if he didn't pay it back in 24 hours, Don could take his home, take his property.

02:41:31.000 Wow.

02:41:32.000 So what's going on here?

02:41:33.000 The manager's job is to get the highest purse for the fighter. 0.97

02:41:36.000 The promoter's job is, you know, let me get the expenses down.

02:41:39.000 And one of those expenses is the fighter's purse.

02:41:42.000 So there's this natural, you know...

02:41:45.000 That's why the Muhammad Ali Act now codifies this as a firewall between the manager and the promoter.

02:41:50.000 They can't have any financial interest in each other.

02:41:53.000 So Terry Norris was a mess during the trial.

02:41:56.000 He could barely speak cogently and they would talk about his brain injuries.

02:42:02.000 He would fall apart.

02:42:04.000 So I am on my way There was going to be a hearing about whether or not, you know, people of color were being excluded from the jury.

02:42:15.000 It's called a Batson hearing.

02:42:17.000 Another story for another time.

02:42:20.000 But I come out of the battery tunnel and I get pulled over on the West Side Highway on Christopher Street in Manhattan.

02:42:29.000 And the cops said, you have a suspended license.

02:42:32.000 This was in like 2001. 2002. And I got arrested.

02:42:38.000 And it was a mistake.

02:42:40.000 I had paid the ticket.

02:42:41.000 My license shouldn't have been suspended.

02:42:43.000 The whole thing got thrown out.

02:42:45.000 This cop books me as Christopher Dubin because I got arrested on Christopher Street and puts me in jail.

02:42:53.000 And I had the next day to be back in court for what at the time was the biggest trial I'd ever been involved in against Don King.

02:43:02.000 It was being covered by ESPN. And I was petrified.

02:43:08.000 And I was told, you're going to be here for three days because the judge is so backed up.

02:43:13.000 I finally got a friend of mine who's a lawyer to get me out that night in night court, and they couldn't find me in the jail because they booked me as Christopher Dubin instead of Josh Dubin.

02:43:24.000 And it was like that scene out of the hurricane.

02:43:28.000 I called my brother.

02:43:29.000 I said, I can't do the time, man.

02:43:31.000 And I was in there for like 15 hours.

02:43:34.000 And I always think about that.

02:43:36.000 Would I have adapted? 0.99

02:43:38.000 Would I have, you know, and I'm like, shit, I was a mess after one day. 0.98

02:43:42.000 And I have to be honest with myself enough to say, you know, I want to be a tough guy here and say, oh, it was no problem. 0.98

02:43:49.000 It was nothing. 0.90

02:43:49.000 I'm fucking scared out of my mind. 0.90

02:43:52.000 And that was for something I knew would get cleared up. 0.91

02:43:55.000 I knew it wasn't going to be a big deal.

02:43:57.000 It was a traffic infraction.

02:43:58.000 And I think about what some of these people have endured.

02:44:02.000 Falsely accused of murder.

02:44:04.000 Trapped in jail for decades.

02:44:06.000 For decades.

02:44:07.000 Yeah.

02:44:07.000 Well, just thank God there's someone like you out there and more people like you out there.

02:44:11.000 There's a ton more like me out there.

02:44:11.000 Jason Flom and the Innocence Project.

02:44:14.000 And all the people that are involved in trying to do this, but the system itself has got to be overhauled, and I don't know how the fuck you do that.

02:44:21.000 I mean, you've got to figure out a way to find out truth, right?

02:44:26.000 And truth is, is it dependent upon evidence?

02:44:30.000 Is it dependent upon memory?

02:44:32.000 Like, how do you know whether or not someone did or did not do something?

02:44:36.000 It's really hard.

02:44:37.000 When you have these cases like the guy walked into the room where the woman had been killed by her husband and he gets some blood on his shoe.

02:44:44.000 There should be a way to dissect that.

02:44:47.000 There should be a way to figure that out.

02:44:49.000 All right.

02:44:49.000 I'm going to keep telling these stories.

02:44:51.000 That's one way.

02:44:52.000 But the answer is brick by brick.

02:44:55.000 All right?

02:44:55.000 And we have, you know...

02:44:59.000 My homework will be to propose to you, again, when you can fit us in, quarterly, biannually.

02:45:05.000 Yeah, let's do quarterly.

02:45:06.000 Quarterly is the best move, right?

02:45:08.000 That way we'll just get it into people's head.

02:45:11.000 Every three months.

02:45:14.000 Listen, here's some new ones.

02:45:16.000 We should know about these, and we have a significant problem.

02:45:20.000 And here's how you can get involved.

02:45:21.000 Now look, we could do...

02:45:23.000 I'll give you one quick example, and then we'll wrap.

02:45:26.000 Okay.

02:45:26.000 Because I know that look.

02:45:29.000 Or maybe I don't.

02:45:30.000 You know, our memory, human memory, is among the least reliable evidence.

02:45:38.000 Least reliable.

02:45:40.000 So eyewitness identification...

02:45:43.000 As is fingerprints, are synonymous with being the gold standard of evidence.

02:45:48.000 I saw him do it.

02:45:49.000 I saw her do it.

02:45:51.000 And there's so much scientific literature of how unreliable our memory is.

02:45:57.000 Fingerprints, we look at as the gold standard.

02:46:00.000 So if we talk about it in the context of cases, it becomes apparent how it can go wrong.

02:46:07.000 And when you enlighten people, your listeners will be jurors one day.

02:46:12.000 They'll be related to people that will become jurors, and they start to convey these stories so that maybe one day when they go into jury selection, we can cut the problem off at the pass, right?

02:46:21.000 So instead of reading about, you know, some awful story about someone that spent all this time in jail for a crime they didn't commit, it could just be a murmur to a friend.

02:46:32.000 I helped make sure someone didn't get convicted for something they didn't do.

02:46:38.000 Yeah.

02:46:39.000 I think the more people are aware of these problems, I think people are kind of peripherally aware, but when someone like you explains the intricate details, all the important aspects and all the infuriating aspects,

02:46:57.000 All the corruption and all the bullshit and the lies and the bad cops and the planting of evidence and all that stuff. 0.81

02:47:03.000 And you realize, again, that could be me. 0.99

02:47:06.000 That could be someone I love.

02:47:08.000 That could be someone. 1.00

02:47:09.000 And also, fucking, even if it's not someone you love, it's a human being. 0.99

02:47:13.000 There's no way that should happen, ever. 0.99

02:47:15.000 No innocent person should happen.

02:47:17.000 And when you see when these people get out and you see a guy who's got gray hair and he's been in jail for 30 years or something he didn't do, how do you fix that?

02:47:24.000 You don't. 0.99

02:47:25.000 Do you have a fucking time machine? 1.00

02:47:26.000 You don't. 1.00

02:47:27.000 You don't.

02:47:27.000 So are we monsters now?

02:47:29.000 Because this is how our criminal justice system is set up?

02:47:31.000 We as a society, have we tolerated this stealing of lives?

02:47:37.000 We have, unfortunately.

02:47:38.000 And it takes...

02:47:39.000 I'm one person.

02:47:41.000 I mean, there is a...

02:47:43.000 There's an army of heroes all across the country that are fighting for this.

02:47:46.000 Nina Morrison, Vanessa Pakin, people of the Innocence Project that have been there forever.

02:47:50.000 My friend Rebecca Brown fighting for reform.

02:47:53.000 But I feel like we're complicit by our silence and our inactivity.

02:47:58.000 I do.

02:47:58.000 I think most people don't know where to start or where to begin or even the extent of the problem itself.

02:48:03.000 Most people don't know.

02:48:04.000 You've extended an olive branch to me.

02:48:06.000 I'm going to grab every twig of it and yank on it, and you have my word that I'll help provide interesting stories that are enlightening and that we can help people know a little bit better.

02:48:20.000 So let's plan on doing this again in September.

02:48:22.000 I love it, bro.

02:48:22.000 All right.

02:48:23.000 My man, you're the best.

02:48:24.000 Great to see you, bro.

02:48:25.000 Thank you, brother.

02:48:25.000 Always great to see you, too.

02:48:26.000 All right.

02:48:27.000 Tell everybody your Instagram.

02:48:28.000 Tell everybody what's the best way to review more of this information online if they're hearing this and they're interested.

02:48:35.000 Yeah, that'd be great.

02:48:36.000 Let me give you my Instagram is dubin.josh.

02:48:41.000 D-U-B-I-N, I believe. 1.00

02:48:44.000 Shit. 1.00

02:48:44.000 Yeah, there you are. 1.00

02:48:45.000 Dubin.josh.

02:48:46.000 Okay, and then what's the best place to...

02:48:49.000 You know, innocenceproject.org is a great way to learn about the Innocence Project.

02:48:54.000 And I make it a point to only really post on my Instagram about cases and causes.

02:49:01.000 And, you know, a great way to learn about what we do at the Innocence Project is going to the website and our Wrongful Conviction podcast that Jason and I do.

02:49:11.000 You know, my Jung Science series just got nominated for a Webby, which was pretty cool, where we go through each discipline of forensic science.

02:49:19.000 And explain, you know, what is wrong with each discipline of forensic science.

02:49:23.000 But you just have to be willing to invest the time and learn.

02:49:26.000 And hopefully through the, you know, our future podcasts with you, we'll keep the word out.

02:49:30.000 Definitely.

02:49:30.000 We'll do it.

02:49:31.000 All right.

02:49:31.000 Thank you.

02:49:32.000 All right, buddy.

02:49:32.000 Goodbye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 09, 2021

Joe Rogan Experience #1664 - Josh Dubin

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript