The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1780 - Maajid Nawaz

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:14.000 The JFK story is like, that has been Oliver Stone's thing.

00:00:18.000 I mean, he's been following that story.

00:00:19.000 He's been chasing it down.

00:00:20.000 We talked about on the podcast that his film, JFK, was essentially 30 years after the assassination.

00:00:27.000 And then this documentary that he just released is 30 years after his film.

00:00:31.000 So he's been chasing this thing down.

00:00:33.000 I should catch the documentary.

00:00:34.000 I've seen the film.

00:00:35.000 It's very good.

00:00:36.000 It's on Showtime.

00:00:37.000 I mean, generally, we're live, right?

00:00:40.000 We're recording.

00:00:40.000 So generally, the assassination of presidents, it's something which, you know, I've been in prison with people that assassinated Sadat.

00:00:47.000 Oh, really?

00:00:48.000 Yeah, these sorts of, this intrigue at the top and the plots, I actually befriended them.

00:00:54.000 I've got a copy of a Quran at home signed by one of them as a gift to me, a parting gift from prison.

00:01:00.000 Wow.

00:01:01.000 The kind of intrigue, when you get to that level of intrigue at the top, nothing is ever what it seems, man.

00:01:07.000 I can only imagine.

00:01:09.000 It's gotta be a stressful way to live.

00:01:11.000 Imagine being a world leader.

00:01:12.000 Yeah, of course. 0.99

00:01:14.000 And all the shit you're dealing with and potential assassination and coup plots and... 0.98

00:01:19.000 And part of how you operate has to be one thing, one face you present to the public, and another thing is what you're really actually doing because you've got all these other people, especially today with the nature of information wars, attempting to subvert what you're trying to do based on your overt actions. 0.99

00:01:37.000 And so you have to hide what you're really actually up to.

00:01:41.000 It's difficult to navigate that terrain. 1.00

00:01:43.000 Well, not only that, but when you operate like that, if you're constantly operating in this sort of deception vein, it's got to be hard to know what's true and what's not true, because you're full of shit. 1.00

00:01:56.000 When you're full of shit, I think it becomes more difficult to recognize. 1.00

00:02:00.000 What's true and what's not true. 1.00

00:02:02.000 And you don't get to that position unless you're full of shit in the first place. 1.00

00:02:04.000 You have to compromise. 1.00

00:02:05.000 They don't let you in.

00:02:07.000 When you find out politicians that earn $200,000 a year and you find out they're worth $200 million.

00:02:14.000 How did that happen?

00:02:15.000 And you're like, what is going on?

00:02:16.000 Well, I'll tell you what's going on.

00:02:17.000 Just look to Pelosi, right?

00:02:18.000 Yes.

00:02:18.000 Well, that was what I was talking about.

00:02:19.000 She's making a lot of money. 1.00

00:02:20.000 It's wild.

00:02:21.000 But it's not from her salary.

00:02:22.000 Well, my favorite thing was when she was confronted and they asked her a question about trading, about whether or not people that are in Congress and what have you should be able to trade.

00:02:32.000 And she takes a sip of water because she knows this is going to be a big one.

00:02:35.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:36.000 Well, listen, there was on Twitter, and we can probably return to the question of tech and speech and censorship, but there was this account called Pelosi Tracker.

00:02:45.000 I don't know if you ever saw it.

00:02:46.000 No.

00:02:46.000 It's been taken down.

00:02:47.000 It was tracking all her trades. 1.00

00:02:49.000 I was following the damn thing. 0.99

00:02:50.000 I was really interested to learn from it. 0.99

00:02:53.000 It's good to invest in what she's investing in.

00:02:55.000 Well, because that's what they say, right?

00:02:56.000 You watch her moves and you know you're going to make money.

00:02:58.000 Why would they take it down?

00:02:59.000 It got taken down.

00:03:01.000 There was two accounts.

00:03:02.000 One was called Epstein Tracker, and it was following the Ghislaine trial.

00:03:06.000 Was it Ghislaine Tracker or Epstein Tracker?

00:03:07.000 The other was Pelosi Tracker.

00:03:08.000 Both got taken down.

00:03:09.000 Why?

00:03:10.000 Yeah.

00:03:11.000 Who knows, man?

00:03:12.000 Why does Twitter do anything?

00:03:14.000 Man, it's so confusing now.

00:03:16.000 I mean, Twitter used to be, like, you would, you remember the old days when you would just say, like, at Majid, I'm having a pizza with friends?

00:03:25.000 Like, you know, like, you would do those things.

00:03:27.000 Like, that's what people would do.

00:03:28.000 Like, off to the movies with my buddies.

00:03:30.000 It's a weapon now.

00:03:31.000 Yeah.

00:03:32.000 It's a weapon in a hybrid war that we're in.

00:03:35.000 Unfortunately, we're in a hybrid war.

00:03:36.000 And one of the main fronts in that war is information over the definition of reality.

00:03:43.000 And in that context, whoever defines reality gets to win.

00:03:48.000 And Twitter is, as a result, in that context, it's a weapon that is being used to define reality by molding people's minds.

00:03:56.000 That's fascinating to put it that way.

00:03:58.000 And what's interesting is the people that are being molded are fiercely defending the rights of those people to mold them.

00:04:05.000 Yeah, that's the best way to do it, right?

00:04:06.000 Well, the people who are being molded, the people that are a part of the hive mind.

00:04:11.000 It's the best way to do it.

00:04:11.000 I mean, look, if I wanted to enslave you, I don't think I'd have much of a chance physically, right?

00:04:15.000 I mean, I don't know about you, but I've only been training for about a couple of years, yeah?

00:04:20.000 So the way to do it would be for me to convince you.

00:04:23.000 Yes.

00:04:24.000 Use a Jedi mind trick. 0.56

00:04:25.000 Yes.

00:04:26.000 These are not the drones you're looking for.

00:04:27.000 Yeah, so you voluntarily follow me.

00:04:29.000 That's the way to do it.

00:04:30.000 And if you're a minority in power, you're always going to be a minority if you're in power. 0.57

00:04:34.000 When we get this conversation started, what I want to do for people that don't know you, I want to go into your past and your book and who you were in the previous life and who you are now and why you're recognizing this and you're so fiercely Resisting this shit more than a lot of people are because a lot of people are scared of blowback Like they see what's going on with governments and with lockdowns and all these things and they're they're

00:05:04.000 scared of the blowback and so they're kind of keeping their mouth shut but you're not doing that at all and I think a lot of that has to do with your past I've seen worse, yeah.

00:05:13.000 Will you just give us a rundown of what happened with you?

00:05:18.000 For your listeners, I was born in Essex, UK and had a very normal, integrated childhood until I kind of hit my teenage years.

00:05:31.000 From my teenagers, we were the first generation, by the way, of Muslims born and raised in the West.

00:05:38.000 My parents were immigrants.

00:05:40.000 And why that's relevant is we, my age group now, I'm 44, we had to navigate a place for Muslims in the West Prior to that point, of course, that hadn't been done.

00:05:53.000 And there's a long history with sort of this whole Huntington model of a clash of civilizations, which is a bit caricature.

00:06:01.000 But there's a long history sort of between Islam and the West and relations and mixing.

00:06:07.000 Some of it's good.

00:06:08.000 A lot of it involved war with the Crusades.

00:06:11.000 So we are now born and raised in the West as British citizens.

00:06:14.000 Now, to put that into context in Europe, If you look with the US and you have minority communities, a lot of the room for improvement exists in, say, African-American communities, right?

00:06:26.000 In Europe, the equivalent is with Muslim communities, wherever you go, whether it's in Britain with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, whether it's in France with the North Africans, in Morocco, in the Netherlands with North Africans, Moroccans, in Germany with Turks, Across Europe, 0.73

00:06:42.000 generally, Albanians, who also majority happen to be Muslim, but more cultural, not really that religious.

00:06:47.000 But across Europe, the largest minorities are Muslims.

00:06:51.000 And so that same question about integration, cooperation, equal opportunities, social mobility, Whereas in the US it applies specifically, I don't know, say for example with African Americans and Mexican Americans or Latino Americans in Europe generally and in the UK,

00:07:10.000 it's a Muslim question.

00:07:11.000 So when I began, sort of hit my teenage years, we experienced a lot of tension around that.

00:07:17.000 And there was a lot of racist violence that I experienced growing up with some sort of neonati racist violence. 0.98

00:07:23.000 And when I say violence, I'm talking severe, severe shit, like machete and hammer attacks, screwdriver attacks. 0.98

00:07:29.000 I've had to watch friends of mine get stabbed before the age of 16. Many of my friends were stabbed. 0.99

00:07:35.000 We had running street fights with these guys, knives, machetes, everything.

00:07:39.000 I mean, it was really bad.

00:07:42.000 One particular occasion, this guy tried to help me.

00:07:45.000 I was surrounded by a group of them, and they all had their big kebab knives.

00:07:49.000 I thought I was going to die, man.

00:07:51.000 And then this guy was just walking past, random guy walking past.

00:07:54.000 He saw that I was surrounded by these guys, and he tried to step in to defend me.

00:07:58.000 And what they did is, I was 15 years old, they held me back, and they basically started stabbing this guy all over his body, forced me to watch it, and they called him a Paki lover.

00:08:07.000 And the idea was that he's a traitor to his skin for trying to defend me.

00:08:11.000 So, of course, I became very angry.

00:08:14.000 But, by the way, I met that guy about two years ago.

00:08:17.000 He lived.

00:08:18.000 He had a punctured lung.

00:08:19.000 Turns out he was with the army.

00:08:21.000 He's a hero for me, man.

00:08:22.000 He's a hero.

00:08:23.000 And I put out a public appeal to see if I could get reunited with him.

00:08:27.000 He wants to stay anonymous, but I met him.

00:08:29.000 And he's still alive and he still lives in my hometown.

00:08:32.000 He's still, you know, local to the area in my home county.

00:08:35.000 But that made me very angry.

00:08:36.000 At the same time, if you want to think back, the timeframe we're talking about, the early 90s, the genocide in Bosnia was happening.

00:08:43.000 The Bosnians are also Muslim.

00:08:44.000 And so we felt that that could come to Britain.

00:08:48.000 We felt very isolated.

00:08:49.000 We felt very vulnerable.

00:08:52.000 And so we were looking in that context for some form of belonging, feeling rejected from society around us.

00:09:00.000 The guys that attacked us, by the way, they would boast about having connections and links with the police.

00:09:06.000 And it turns out to be the case that there was a problem in those days with the police.

00:09:10.000 There's a famous case of the murder of Stephen Lawrence in the UK, who was stabbed to death in a similar way while waiting at a bus stop.

00:09:17.000 And his killers were never brought to justice for over 20 years.

00:09:21.000 And there was a government inquiry commissioned into that, it's called the McPherson Inquiry, and it eventually became famous for coining that phrase institutional racism.

00:09:29.000 And it was talking about how police were not looking into these sorts of crimes, so nobody was ever brought to justice for what happened to us.

00:09:36.000 And everything I described was a year before Stephen Lawrence was murdered.

00:09:40.000 But that became the pivotal case in the UK. It became like a George Floyd moment.

00:09:44.000 It was huge, except he wasn't...

00:09:47.000 You know, I know George Floyd had some background.

00:09:48.000 This guy was clean.

00:09:50.000 He was just a young kid.

00:09:51.000 No background.

00:09:52.000 He just set a bus stop.

00:09:54.000 So in that context, we became very angry and began looking for belonging and identity outside of the mainstream that we felt rejected us.

00:10:02.000 And so at the age of 16, why that's all relevant is I ended up joining a revolutionary Islamist organization.

00:10:10.000 I didn't trust society.

00:10:12.000 I didn't trust authority.

00:10:14.000 I didn't trust the West generally.

00:10:16.000 Looking at the genocide in Bosnia with the UN troops, one of the...

00:10:20.000 The most searing memories for me was Srebrenica, where the Dutch UN soldiers were standing by as the Bosnian Muslims were killed and put in that mass grave, and they didn't have the mandate to intervene.

00:10:31.000 So we really didn't trust institutions to defend us, whether it was foreign policy or even domestic at home.

00:10:37.000 So at the age of 16, I joined this group called Hezbo al-Tahrir, which means the Party of Liberation.

00:10:43.000 And in a nutshell, before Al-Qaeda and definitely before ISIS, this was an organization that wanted to caliphate globally around the world.

00:10:52.000 But instead of using terrorism in the conventional means we understand it today, blowing things up, Our purpose, our method was to recruit army officers in Muslim majority countries and instigate military coups to try and come to power. 0.73

00:11:06.000 I joined this group at 16 and I spent about a decade, well, yeah, more, just over a decade in this organization.

00:11:15.000 I rose to the leadership in the UK. I set the group, I exported it from the UK and set it up in Pakistan. 0.99

00:11:22.000 I was part of the first move in the wave that went from Britain to Pakistan to found the group there.

00:11:26.000 In that vein, I ended up recruiting some army officers there in Pakistan as well.

00:11:31.000 Can I ask you how that happens?

00:11:32.000 How do you make contact with the army officers and how could you recruit them?

00:11:37.000 How would you go about doing that?

00:11:38.000 Well, there's this military academy in the UK that, globally, countries send their officers to for training.

00:11:43.000 It's called Sandhurst.

00:11:45.000 And we would, because of the Pakistani community, we knew friends who had relatives or whatever that would be coming from Pakistan to study at Sandhurst.

00:11:52.000 It's like an officer's training academy.

00:11:55.000 And then through relatives, you know, you begin conversation.

00:11:58.000 And then really the rest of it is what's really important.

00:12:02.000 Is being trained in techniques as to how to convince people of your aim.

00:12:10.000 So like what would happen?

00:12:13.000 So a lot of that involves around first, so we used to say that you have to first destroy before you build.

00:12:18.000 And so whatever you believe in at the moment has to be removed before we can replace it with our ideological framework.

00:12:24.000 And so if you believe in, say you're coming from Pakistan, a thing you're going to generally, Obviously there are exceptions, but you're going to have some form of belief in the international order, in the international system, in democratic governance, because Pakistan for most of its history has been a democracy.

00:12:42.000 And so we'd have to pick apart those ideas first.

00:12:46.000 By focusing on the flaws and the holes in these eyes.

00:12:49.000 So take the international community.

00:12:50.000 It's very easy to do.

00:12:51.000 If you've got the UN standing by while a genocide is going on in Bosnia and you're speaking to a Muslim who's from a country that was founded to protect Muslims after partition in 1947, just say, look, you think these institutions are going to protect you when you see what happened in Bosnia.

00:13:05.000 So the failure of the international order was something that we could poke to try and make those fissures bigger.

00:13:13.000 And so a lot of it is...

00:13:15.000 And we'll get back to this, by the way, with the debate today with COVID. But a lot of it was a psychological assault on assumptions that people took for granted.

00:13:23.000 And then you pick those apart through discussion.

00:13:25.000 You demonstrate how those assumptions don't stand up to the real world and they require a solution.

00:13:31.000 That solution has to be something that fits what the person wants.

00:13:35.000 Now, if you're speaking to a Muslim, it's pretty much a given that they don't want genocide against Muslims.

00:13:40.000 So we'd go back, say, take the example of Bosnia.

00:13:43.000 We talk about, well, how do you think Muslims who are blonde-haired, blue-eyed even came to Bosnia in the first place?

00:13:47.000 Well, actually, it was through the caliphate, which is true. 0.98

00:13:50.000 It was the Ottomans had the leadership of the Muslim world at the time, modern-day Turkey.

00:13:54.000 And the Ottomans used to provide protection in that area.

00:13:58.000 Now, that last vestige of a caliphate was destroyed in 1924, after World War I. And that's when the Muslims who are in modern day Bosnia lost that protection of the Ottoman Empire.

00:14:11.000 So if you're speaking to somebody that knows his history, which we were trained in.

00:14:16.000 So remember, I'm 16. I shouldn't be having conversations about the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia unless somehow I've been involved in a form of a process of a combination of education and indoctrination.

00:14:27.000 And it's how to use that education for the purposes of indoctrination that we were trained in.

00:14:32.000 So you can kind of have those discussions.

00:14:34.000 And we ended up recruiting people.

00:14:37.000 As I say, I exported it to Denmark, then to Pakistan.

00:14:40.000 I was on the leadership in the UK. Eventually, I went to Egypt to try and re-establish the group there in Egypt.

00:14:50.000 Egypt at the time was under Hosni Mubarak.

00:14:53.000 I was doing a degree at the School of Oriental and African Studies.

00:14:57.000 It's SOAS, part of the University of London.

00:15:01.000 It's considered one of the leading kind of radical left-wing colleges in the UK, but for Arabic it's actually one of the best in the world.

00:15:09.000 And I was doing law and Arabic at SOAS, and for my Arabic degree I needed to go to an Arab country for my language year, my third year.

00:15:17.000 So I chose Egypt.

00:15:19.000 So that was my ostensible reason for going to Egypt.

00:15:21.000 But actually, while I was there, I began recruiting again for my organization.

00:15:24.000 The difference between Egypt and Pakistan, Denmark and Britain is Egypt's a dictatorship. 0.94

00:15:31.000 Still is till today.

00:15:33.000 Whereas Pakistan wasn't. 1.00

00:15:36.000 And, of course, Denmark and Britain weren't.

00:15:37.000 So in Egypt, where I tried to start building these cells, recruit people to my organization, I arrived one day before the 9-11 attacks, not knowing, of course, that was happening.

00:15:49.000 And so that changed the security paradigm for the whole world.

00:15:53.000 If you remember Tony Blair saying the rules of the game have changed.

00:15:58.000 Once 9-11 happened, people like us who were not, you know, terrorists in the kind of bombing sense, right?

00:16:05.000 So that's just the difference between, say, an Islamist, to briefly define it, somebody who wants to impose a version of Islam over society, as opposed to just the religion of Islam, which is a faith.

00:16:16.000 An Islamist, I define, and people can differ with these definitions, just my definition, someone who wants to impose a version of Islam over society, impose a dogma, yeah?

00:16:25.000 But our methods, our means, were not violent.

00:16:28.000 They were more like infiltrating the government and trying to take over from within.

00:16:31.000 But once the 9-11 attacks happened, the security rules of the game changed.

00:16:36.000 The Egyptian regime came after us.

00:16:38.000 There was a bit of a cat-and-mouse chase.

00:16:40.000 I was on the run for a bit in Egypt.

00:16:41.000 But eventually, they raided my house at roughly 3am.

00:16:45.000 And they had machine guns and grenades and everything.

00:16:48.000 They came in. 0.60

00:16:49.000 And I was awake at the time because I was married and I have a one-year-old.

00:16:54.000 He was one at the time.

00:16:54.000 I have a son from that previous marriage.

00:16:56.000 And I was trying to put him back to sleep.

00:16:59.000 They ripped him from my arms.

00:17:01.000 They blindfolded me.

00:17:04.000 And they put me in this van, took me to their state security headquarters, and a lot of, I can go into some of the detail, but a lot of atrocities then happened to us.

00:17:15.000 I mean, we went through quite a horrific experience in the dungeons of Egypt.

00:17:18.000 And the first thing they did is they took me up in Alexandria, where I was living.

00:17:22.000 They took me up to the top of a building, blindfolded, and stood me on the edge of the roof to try and make me believe that they were going to push me over.

00:17:29.000 I had to stand there very still.

00:17:31.000 It takes a bit out of you.

00:17:34.000 You can't see anything.

00:17:35.000 And I could feel the wind around me.

00:17:37.000 But that was just a warm-up.

00:17:40.000 That was for the purpose of softening me up so that I would believe that they're prepared to do anything so that I'm ready to talk.

00:17:47.000 So once they put me there, then they took me down and they took me in to see an officer.

00:17:51.000 I was blindfolded, but to be confronted by an intelligence officer from the state security.

00:17:58.000 And he asked me my story.

00:18:00.000 And we were trained to say one thing in that context as Islamist revolutionaries, and the answer was very straightforward.

00:18:07.000 And it's what I said.

00:18:07.000 I was very programmed, right?

00:18:11.000 So I said, my name is Majid Nawaz and I'm a member of Hizb al-Tahrir from Britain and that's all I've got to say to you.

00:18:17.000 And that's what I said to the officer.

00:18:18.000 So he laughed.

00:18:19.000 He's heard that before from us.

00:18:21.000 There's a long history of this group in Egypt.

00:18:24.000 So he said, all right, let's see what you do next.

00:18:26.000 And then they put us in this van, drove us through the desert, still blindfolded, took us to Cairo, and they took us to this building called Al-Gihaz, Al-Gihaz Amin al-Dolo, which is the headquarters of the state security, internal state security for all of Egypt.

00:18:43.000 Took us underground.

00:18:45.000 And this is where the real nightmare began.

00:18:47.000 Tied our hands behind our backs with rags.

00:18:50.000 We were bodies piled on top of each other on the floor in this...

00:18:54.000 I don't know what it was.

00:18:55.000 I call it a dungeon because it was underground in a basement-like structure.

00:18:58.000 And then that's when the screaming began. 0.83

00:19:00.000 They gave us all numbers.

00:19:01.000 I was 42. And from that day, this was now, I think, day two.

00:19:10.000 From that evening, they began a roll call.

00:19:12.000 We weren't allowed to sleep, by the way.

00:19:14.000 If we slept and we didn't answer our name, we were beaten.

00:19:16.000 And they went through the numbers in chronological order.

00:19:20.000 And so I would hear, number one, he was called up, taken into a separate room, tortured, and we would hear his screams, electrocuted, and then they'd say, call number two.

00:19:30.000 Number one is brought back, collapses in his spot, brings number two, number three, and they go through.

00:19:35.000 Everyone is being tortured one by one.

00:19:37.000 And of course, I have to wait my turn.

00:19:39.000 42. So I've heard 41 other people.

00:19:42.000 So number 41 was next to me.

00:19:44.000 This is a moment I write about in Radical, which is the story of all of this.

00:19:48.000 It's my autobiography.

00:19:48.000 It's called Radical.

00:19:50.000 And this poor guy, I still don't know who he is till this day, but he turned to me and he was crying because his turn was next.

00:19:56.000 And he said, help me.

00:19:58.000 I don't know what to do.

00:19:59.000 I'm in the same position.

00:20:00.000 So I just read some passages of the Qur'an to him.

00:20:02.000 There's a passage about a boy.

00:20:05.000 Because Muslims believe everything, you know, in the Old and New Testament, we believe that's from the same tradition, the same God.

00:20:11.000 And a bit like the best way I can explain it for an American or a world audience is...

00:20:16.000 Just as Christianity views Judaism as part of their tradition, Islam views Christianity and Judaism as part of our tradition, right? 0.88

00:20:23.000 So there's a story in the Quran about a Christian boy who tried to proselytize for monotheism and this pagan king didn't like him and he put him in a ditch and he burned everyone in this ditch.

00:20:35.000 It's called Surat al-Buruj, the story of the trench.

00:20:39.000 And it's about suffering in the face of truth.

00:20:42.000 And so I just started reciting this passage to him.

00:20:45.000 I started reciting this passage and there's a very specific way of reciting the Quran.

00:20:52.000 It soothed him.

00:20:53.000 All I remember him saying to me was, you're a good man, thank you.

00:20:56.000 And then he was taken, his number was called, he was taken.

00:20:58.000 And then eventually he collapsed, he was brought back and he was just unconscious and my number was called.

00:21:03.000 So I had to walk, imagine that, I had to walk towards this The room where they're going to torture me.

00:21:11.000 And the guy said, right, you're going to have to speak.

00:21:16.000 And I still had my hands tied behind my back.

00:21:19.000 But I had managed to get the rags loose.

00:21:23.000 And I'm not the kind of guy that's going to...

00:21:24.000 I mean, honestly, at that moment, I decided I'd rather die than be humiliated in this way.

00:21:29.000 And then also then telling him a story about my friends, you know? 0.99

00:21:36.000 So because my hands were loose, honestly, I decided I'd rather just attack the guy and then they're going to have to shoot me dead. 0.96

00:21:43.000 But then something unexpected happened. 0.86

00:21:45.000 There were four of us from the UK. Instead of electrocuting me, he electrocuted my friend, who was also in the group with me, who's from London, who's also in Egypt.

00:21:54.000 They tortured him in front of me.

00:21:57.000 And then he said, right, your turn.

00:21:58.000 You have to speak.

00:21:58.000 Tell us why you're here.

00:21:59.000 Tell us what you're doing here in Egypt.

00:22:01.000 I gave him the answer, the stock answer I gave in Alexandria.

00:22:04.000 He said, my name is Majid Nawaz.

00:22:05.000 I'm a member of Hizmet Tahrir from Britain.

00:22:08.000 Do what you want.

00:22:11.000 And by this time, my hands were loose, but I was still pretending they were still tied.

00:22:14.000 And honestly, Joe, people are going to think this is barbaric, but you haven't been in that situation to know what happens to the brain. 0.98

00:22:21.000 But I took the view that if they touch me, I'm just going to bite down on his neck and they're going to have to shoot me dead because I was just going to basically just attack the guy with my teeth. 0.98

00:22:30.000 That's all I had. 0.98

00:22:32.000 Lucky for me, for whatever reason, he said, right, I'm going to give you 24 more hours to think about your answer.

00:22:39.000 Go back to your spot, and if you don't answer, you saw what we did to your friend, and we're going to do that to you.

00:22:44.000 Now, this is the fourth day. 0.97

00:22:46.000 So they took me back to my place, and then there were some hints that they were going to rape me or whatever.

00:22:53.000 They're talking about, oh, this one looks, you know, talking about my physical features, and maybe we should treat them in a different way. 0.70

00:22:58.000 And I think they were trying to scare me with that, too.

00:23:01.000 And they have, by the way. 0.99

00:23:02.000 They were raping wives in there. 1.00

00:23:04.000 They were torturing children in front of their fathers just to try and force the father to confess. 0.99

00:23:10.000 I mean, just imagine no rules.

00:23:13.000 Anything is possible, and nobody's ever going to find out about it.

00:23:17.000 Now, lucky for me, that was the fourth day.

00:23:19.000 The British consul is meant to make contact within 48 hours.

00:23:23.000 So four days, they're already late.

00:23:24.000 But however they managed to do it on that fourth day, because I was a student of Arabic, and I could understand, I heard a phone ring in the dungeon, and one of the officers picked the phone up, and I could hear him speaking in Arabic, and he said, yeah, the foreigners are here with me.

00:23:36.000 And then I could hear him say, yes, sir, yes, sir, okay, all right, today, sir.

00:23:39.000 And that's when I realized, you know what, we might be taken out of here.

00:23:44.000 So, it was the case.

00:23:47.000 That evening, so I was due to go back to that officer who'd given me the warning, but before I was due back, they sent some pickup truck, military truck, to come and collect the four of us that were from the UK, and they took us from there.

00:24:03.000 I imagine the ambassador was making a big stink.

00:24:07.000 They took us from there and instead took us to a prison called Masra Atura prison, which is where I eventually met the assassins of Anwar Sadat, the former prime minister, the former president.

00:24:15.000 And they put us into solitary confinement for three and a half months, roughly.

00:24:21.000 The Egyptians we left behind there, the Egyptians continued, they continued treating them in a really brutal way, those that were arrested with us.

00:24:28.000 But we were then put into solitary confinement.

00:24:30.000 I was then, as a result, I was never electrocuted.

00:24:33.000 My friend, as I said, was in front of me.

00:24:34.000 He was in the next cell to me.

00:24:36.000 And after, so that cell that we were put into solitary confinement, there was no toilet, there was no bedding or anything.

00:24:42.000 It was just a bare concrete cell.

00:24:44.000 We had to, forgive me, but I suppose this is your show, we can speak like this, but we had to shit on the floor, we had to piss on the floor, and then they'd come 15 minutes break, they'd come with a bucket, and they'd just wash it down, and then we're back in that same cell. 0.68

00:24:56.000 Whew.

00:24:57.000 Three months or so later, we were charged.

00:25:01.000 I remember the charges still in Arabic.

00:25:03.000 I'd still quote them for you.

00:25:04.000 The first charge was, which means membership of a prohibited organization.

00:25:12.000 The second charge was, propagation by speech and writing of banned ideas.

00:25:19.000 It was beautiful because that's what convinced Amnesty International to adopt us as prisoners of conscience.

00:25:25.000 The charges.

00:25:27.000 Now, why that's beautiful is imagine, by the way, I forgot to say, so I was 24 years old by this time, yeah?

00:25:34.000 Imagine an angry Muslim, 24, at the peak of the war on terror, yeah? 1.00

00:25:39.000 Iraq hadn't yet been invaded, but 9-11 had happened. 0.59

00:25:43.000 I hated the West. 0.95

00:25:44.000 I hated what I called the kuffar, infidels. 1.00

00:25:48.000 And I existed to overthrow the Western order.

00:25:51.000 And I was prepared to die for that.

00:25:53.000 I was prepared to be tortured for it.

00:25:56.000 And along come Amnesty International and they say he doesn't deserve to be in jail for his ideas unless he's committed a crime.

00:26:02.000 And we hadn't committed any crime in Egypt.

00:26:04.000 All we were doing was speaking about these ideas, these kind of revolutionary ideas.

00:26:09.000 And because the Egyptian constitution had been suspended, Under an emergency since the assassination of Anwar Sadat in 1981 by the guys I eventually met in that same prison.

00:26:22.000 The Egyptian constitution does protect ideas, but it had been suspended in the name of an emergency for over 20 years.

00:26:29.000 And I'd like to, when we get to the current day, come back to the nature of how emergencies work when they suspend your rights, okay?

00:26:35.000 So this is, they'd suspended the rights of Egyptians, and it was meant to be temporary.

00:26:39.000 And that temporary situation lasted over 20 years, which is why we ended up in jail for our ideas.

00:26:45.000 What was the initial emergency?

00:26:46.000 The assassination of the president.

00:26:48.000 Okay, so because of that emergency, they used that to justify...

00:26:52.000 Which I can assure you, assassinating a president is a lot more deadly than the IFR for COVID, which is 0.096%, similar to the flu.

00:27:00.000 So that was a real emergency where a president was killed.

00:27:03.000 And it was meant to be temporary.

00:27:05.000 The state of emergency existed for over 20 years.

00:27:08.000 It's why they were allowed to treat us in that way, because they had suspended the rights of their citizens as a permanent thing.

00:27:15.000 Amnesty International comes along and says, these guys are prisoners of conscience.

00:27:20.000 When I learned of that, it really, really shook me.

00:27:23.000 Because I had never in my life up until that point, and I'm 24, I never received the positive word from any bastion of Western values, any institution, right?

00:27:38.000 Whether it was amnesty, governments, media...

00:27:41.000 And it began a process in me, in that time in prison, to just try and understand why Amnesty cared about defending my rights, because I knew I didn't care about them.

00:27:51.000 We would go around attempting to deconstruct the concept of human rights in order to recruit people to our ideological worldview.

00:27:59.000 But here was this organisation who knew that I defined them as a soft power enemy.

00:28:04.000 We saw human rights organisations as a soft power tool of Western colonialism.

00:28:09.000 And so they knew I defined them as an intellectual enemy, and yet they were defending me and my right and attempting to help get me out of jail.

00:28:18.000 So that began a process, and I've said often, right, where the heart leads, the mind can follow.

00:28:23.000 So I think it's really important when you're trying to change people's minds and help people that they see an emotional connection first because, and we've seen this in science, right, with neurological patterns.

00:28:34.000 I've often spoken to Sam Harris about this, that often you look at the The way people think, and actually we think that we are led by our thoughts, but actually something happens in the brain prior to us actually even acknowledging what we're doing, right?

00:28:47.000 And that brings up whole questions of free will that Sam talks about.

00:28:50.000 But here in this context, amnesty reaching out to me softened my heart for the first time in my life.

00:28:56.000 All I'd ever known up until that point in my relationship with the West and the country in which I was born, Was violence.

00:29:04.000 I mean, I've seen more violence than anybody should have seen at that stage.

00:29:08.000 And that was the relationship I had.

00:29:10.000 My relationship with society was defined through hate and violence.

00:29:15.000 And that's all I'd known through my adult years, my teenage years, and on to my early 20s.

00:29:23.000 We're in jail.

00:29:24.000 This is when Iraq got evaded by Blair and Bush and Blair.

00:29:29.000 Of course, we were really upset with that as Islamist prisoners.

00:29:33.000 We believe this is all part of the war that we were involved in.

00:29:35.000 But Amnesty continued campaigning for us.

00:29:38.000 So what I did is I spent...

00:29:39.000 We eventually got convicted.

00:29:41.000 I served five years, which in Egypt was meant to be three quarters of the sentence.

00:29:46.000 But we ended up staying for about four years in jail, just under.

00:29:51.000 And we were released having completed our full sentence.

00:29:54.000 So it's not that Amnesty got us out, but the mere fact they were campaigning for us.

00:29:57.000 So I spent that time in prison reading everything I'd get my hands on.

00:30:02.000 We were eventually let out of solitary confinement, and I, always having been somebody that appreciated intellectual discussion, I saw around me the who's who of political prisoners in Masra Atorah prison.

00:30:15.000 And we had everything from communists and socialists.

00:30:19.000 We had Muslims who had converted to Christianity.

00:30:21.000 We had Christians who had converted to Islam. 0.52

00:30:23.000 We had jihadists who'd assassinated the president.

00:30:26.000 And we had Israeli spies who were being accused of being Israeli spies.

00:30:29.000 Everyone was in this jail.

00:30:30.000 Wow.

00:30:31.000 And we had a joke that under Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, If you change your mind from anything to anything, it's a criminal offense.

00:30:39.000 Because it didn't make sense, right?

00:30:40.000 You had a Muslim convert to Christianity, threw him in jail. 1.00

00:30:42.000 Christian, convert to Islam, throw him in jail. 1.00

00:30:44.000 For conversion? 1.00

00:30:45.000 Everything.

00:30:46.000 You change your mind on anything and you'd be in jail.

00:30:49.000 You're unreliable.

00:30:50.000 No.

00:30:51.000 What is the logic?

00:30:52.000 Well, that's the funny thing.

00:30:54.000 Mubarak didn't want anyone to think.

00:30:56.000 Oh, wow.

00:30:57.000 Just don't think.

00:30:58.000 Just obey.

00:30:59.000 So when he heard that you're just tossing and turning too much in your mind, he'd just throw you in jail?

00:31:03.000 Throw you in jail.

00:31:04.000 That guy's too sketchy. 0.79

00:31:05.000 I mean, think about it.

00:31:05.000 You've got people that assassinated Sadat, right?

00:31:08.000 Yes.

00:31:09.000 Why did they assassinate him?

00:31:10.000 In 1981, Anwar Sadat made a peace treaty with Israel.

00:31:14.000 Egypt and Israel's peace is because of that president.

00:31:17.000 And it was military guys that assassinated him.

00:31:21.000 And they did it because they believed that was treachery.

00:31:24.000 They didn't want peace with Israel, so assassinated him, right? 0.79

00:31:26.000 So you can understand, okay, you've got jihadis who believe making peace with Israel is treachery.

00:31:30.000 They're in jail.

00:31:30.000 But on the other hand, this guy, I was with him in prison as well, and he'd been accused of being an Israeli agent.

00:31:36.000 Threw him in jail too.

00:31:37.000 And the guys that prosecuted and convicted the assassins of Sadat, right, they were in jail with the assassins of Sadat 20 years later.

00:31:45.000 That's the danger of dictatorship.

00:31:48.000 Everyone ends up in prison.

00:31:49.000 Because you literally can just point at anybody you want and go lock them up.

00:31:51.000 So I used that opportunity to speak to everyone.

00:31:55.000 I had the advantage that we were young.

00:31:57.000 They were like, the Sadat assassins had been in prison for longer than I'd been alive.

00:32:01.000 I was 24, they'd been in jail 25 years.

00:32:03.000 So we looked at them and thought, wisdom.

00:32:05.000 Now these guys had also changed their ideology in that time.

00:32:08.000 They basically started advocating for a more peaceful approach.

00:32:12.000 Really?

00:32:13.000 And a more traditional faith in Islam as opposed to the politicized dogma.

00:32:18.000 What I called earlier Islamism, yeah? 0.99

00:32:20.000 So I spent a lot of time with these guys because, first of all, they had my respect.

00:32:24.000 They'd lived the life that I had started on, right?

00:32:26.000 But they'd also then come back from it.

00:32:28.000 One of their names was Dr. Tariq.

00:32:31.000 He'd managed to become a doctor through his time in prison and studying.

00:32:34.000 The other guy was Salah al-Bayyumi.

00:32:37.000 So I spent a lot of time talking to them and others.

00:32:40.000 Egypt's largest jihadi group at the time was called Gamal Islamiyya.

00:32:43.000 Their leader was in prison as well.

00:32:45.000 What was their tipping point?

00:32:48.000 Like, once they were incarcerated after the assassination, What led them to change the way they viewed the world?

00:32:55.000 Because you would imagine that people...

00:32:57.000 One of the things that we always talk about with the prison system in America is you're just making better criminals.

00:33:02.000 You're making more hardened criminals.

00:33:03.000 You're introducing them to other hardened criminals, and there's very little rehabilitation.

00:33:08.000 That's right.

00:33:09.000 So what caused these men to change their perspective?

00:33:13.000 So that's the general rule.

00:33:15.000 And I'll get to in a second, eventually, we also do that kind of rehabilitation work in the UK with Muslims convicted of high-level terrorism.

00:33:25.000 In fact, the brother, my friend, who I'm working with on that, was going to be here with me today, but some paperwork didn't work out with his situation, so he's not.

00:33:33.000 But...

00:33:35.000 What happened in Egypt is the exception.

00:33:39.000 There was a process called, which means the revisions.

00:33:42.000 And they sent in a whole bunch of theologians to speak to the leaders of these jihadi groups.

00:33:46.000 And eventually, over a process, a long period, and I imagine a lot of carrot and stick, The leadership of these groups, in particular the largest group, as I say, was known Gamal Islamiyya, which is not the group that assassinated Anwar Sadat, the president.

00:34:01.000 That was known as Al-Jihad Al-Islami, or Islamic Jihad.

00:34:05.000 But the other group, which was larger, was known as Gamal Islamiyya, or the Islamic group.

00:34:11.000 That group's leadership began this process of revision, murajaat, and eventually they came to what they called Mubadarat Waqth Al-Unf, which means a ceasefire.

00:34:22.000 They declared a ceasefire with the government based upon theological revisions.

00:34:25.000 And as a reward for their revisions of their violence, they were put into this prison where the political wing were rather than the violent wing, right?

00:34:35.000 And so because we were the political wing, they were then deemed as being safe to be put with the political side of it as opposed to the terrorist side.

00:34:43.000 So then I got to mix with these guys and I spent all that time reading their revisions in Arabic, debating it with them, Speaking to the other prisoners, like, there was this liberal presidential candidate called Ayman Noor, who was thrown in jail because he was a presidential candidate.

00:35:01.000 He stood for election against Mubarak, threw him in jail.

00:35:04.000 They used some corruption charges on him, but everyone knew that he was because he stood as president and he wasn't an endorsed candidate.

00:35:10.000 He was in jail.

00:35:11.000 So I spoke to people that have a liberal ideology, revised Islamist ideology, communist prisoners, spoke to everybody, and then did a lot of my own reading.

00:35:21.000 And one of the interesting things for me was reading, in particular, English literature.

00:35:27.000 Read a lot of Tolkien, a lot of Orwell.

00:35:31.000 I even read the Harry Potter books.

00:35:33.000 In a jihadi jail.

00:35:34.000 And the interesting thing with Tolkien, Orwell in particular, is there's a lot you can learn from those stories that relate to our situation today.

00:35:43.000 There's a lot of hero's journey stuff.

00:35:45.000 Precisely.

00:35:47.000 And then on top of that, I read a lot of Islamic theology.

00:35:50.000 I continued with my Arabic studies.

00:35:52.000 And the more I learned, the more I studied, the more tolerant I became, and the more the dogma that I had adopted began to unravel.

00:35:59.000 And this is, you know of my dialogue with Sam, it became an Amazon film.

00:36:03.000 It's explained in that.

00:36:05.000 A lot of it is in the book that I did with Sam, published by Harvard, which was my second book.

00:36:09.000 But in essence, the more I learned about my tradition and my heritage, I was ignorant of that because I wasn't born with that heritage.

00:36:16.000 I was born in dislocation from it.

00:36:20.000 But sitting with those who had studied this and those who had spent many years thinking about this, the more I learned, the more open I became.

00:36:28.000 And because Amnesty had initially opened my heart, I began looking for alternatives.

00:36:33.000 Now, what I didn't want to do was leave the group or even announce leaving the group while in jail.

00:36:38.000 I have a bit more dignity than that.

00:36:39.000 I didn't want anyone to think I've done it because I'm in prison and someone's pressured me.

00:36:43.000 So I left prison, still a committed member of the group, on paper.

00:36:47.000 We're good to go.

00:37:10.000 Offered me directly to become the leader in the UK. So within that week I had a choice to make.

00:37:16.000 Either I live a lie and I lead this organisation while no longer believing that this is good for anyone's future or I resign.

00:37:24.000 So I unilaterally and openly announce my resignation from the group and also my abandonment of my previous ideology in the favour of a more traditional and organic understanding of my heritage.

00:37:39.000 How was that met within the group?

00:37:42.000 Outrage.

00:37:44.000 My marriage fell apart and my entire identity up until that point had been defined by families and friends around this ideology and organization.

00:37:55.000 All of that, imagine you've been plucked out of your reality and you have to reconstruct yourself from nothing.

00:38:00.000 But on top of that, you've just come out of jail.

00:38:02.000 The war on terror is at its peak.

00:38:04.000 Tony Blair is Prime Minister and Bush Jr. is President.

00:38:08.000 So the world hates you because everyone thinks you're the enemy.

00:38:11.000 You've just lost all your friends and you have to build yourself back up again from nothing.

00:38:16.000 How did you maintain your resolve during that period?

00:38:18.000 Because I've got to imagine the pull to go back to your old ways is probably very strong because there's community there and even though you had come to this realization in jail and through all your reading that there had to been a great pull to try to bring you back to the old life.

00:38:35.000 This is why today, when talking about contemporary debates, the stance I've taken against tyranny, and I won't mince my words on it, this is why it's so insulting. 0.97

00:38:47.000 It's seriously ignorant. 0.61

00:38:49.000 Where some voices have come out and said, oh, Majid Nawaz has become radical. 0.95

00:38:53.000 He's radicalized, sorry.

00:38:55.000 I use the word radical myself.

00:38:57.000 Radicalized. 0.75

00:38:57.000 He's become an extremist again. 0.75

00:38:59.000 These people have absolutely no idea what extremism is.

00:39:03.000 They have no idea what it takes to inoculate yourself against that before anyone else was even talking about counter extremism.

00:39:10.000 They have no idea the inner discipline it takes to pull yourself out of that and lose everything.

00:39:16.000 What was that like?

00:39:20.000 It was incredibly difficult.

00:39:22.000 But what got me through it and what gets me through it today, to draw that similar analogy, what got me through it then is you have to have a belief in why you're doing what you're doing.

00:39:33.000 And I went seeking and I found people who were far better than the people I was following, who were also consistent to my heritage and yet believed in finding what we have in common and bringing people together rather than dividing people.

00:39:54.000 There are, again, back to teachers, yeah?

00:39:57.000 Spiritual guides.

00:39:58.000 One of the first things, I needed to land on some form of spiritual and humanitarian platform.

00:40:05.000 So I went to Sufi sheikhs who practice the soul or purification of the soul, of the inside, to try and make sure that you're on a firm foundation. 0.80

00:40:15.000 And I went looking.

00:40:16.000 And I got very lucky that one spiritual guide Sheikh Ali, who I spoke to early on.

00:40:25.000 And he said, listen, you're going to go on a journey.

00:40:27.000 Trust the journey.

00:40:29.000 And the important thing is we stay in touch, but trust the journey.

00:40:32.000 And as long as your intention is good, you will land on your feet.

00:40:36.000 And I remember one of the things he said to me.

00:40:38.000 He said, we're in this situation now where it's almost like this Muslim-Western divide.

00:40:42.000 As I say, the war on terror was ongoing.

00:40:44.000 Blair was Prime Minister.

00:40:46.000 Bush was President.

00:40:47.000 And he said to me, just imagine you're like...

00:40:52.000 Moses in the court pharaoh and you're there and you're going to speak to these people to try and make them understand what you've understood as to why you pulled back from that brink to try and help them understand that war isn't the way forward with this.

00:41:03.000 The whole war on terror discourse, the whole paradigm.

00:41:05.000 So I spent the next 10 years of my life on that guidance given to me by Sheikh Ali.

00:41:11.000 Attempting to, from the inside, working with the machine, I'm now going to call it the machine, right?

00:41:17.000 The system.

00:41:19.000 Working with that machine in an attempt to be like Moses in the court of Pharaoh.

00:41:25.000 Let them see through my example what can be rather than what The bad things that you think are.

00:41:33.000 The good that can be, right?

00:41:35.000 So I met with Blair.

00:41:36.000 I met with Bush in his house in Texas.

00:41:38.000 I met Blair a few times.

00:41:40.000 I've met with PM Cameron, met with Trudeau.

00:41:44.000 I've met with a lot of these people in an attempt to show them there's another way.

00:41:48.000 What I realized over the course of that attempt, and we can get into some of this detail, but what brings me here today is 10 years of being an Islamist revolutionary and then 10 years of attempting to work on that high level in governments, in that machine, to try and soften the power of that machine, 0.91

00:42:06.000 soften its own self-inflicted blows, such as the invasion of Iraq.

00:42:11.000 Such as, you know, arbitrary kill lists, assassinating people without due process, to try and end that war and instead bring about a dialogue.

00:42:19.000 Unfortunately, the machine I was trying to work with, I don't believe it's any longer possible to work on the inside and achieve that aim.

00:42:26.000 How so?

00:42:27.000 Mission creep.

00:42:29.000 Mission creep.

00:42:29.000 Yeah.

00:42:30.000 So you may know, but for your listeners, I'll say that after leaving that organization, I set up a group called Quilliam in an attempt to be that, you know, what the guidance that was given to me.

00:42:38.000 And I don't think I'd be where I am without that guidance.

00:42:41.000 You ask about how I did it.

00:42:42.000 You have to have strong people around you.

00:42:44.000 And you have to have an understanding of who you are and not lose that.

00:42:48.000 And it's very difficult.

00:42:49.000 But 10 years, I'm trying to work with that machine to say, look...

00:42:53.000 Yes, I can help you on the ideological side of how to speak to those Muslims who have gone down that path, but on your side there is some responsibility.

00:43:04.000 You've got to respect the civil liberties values that you claim you're fighting for.

00:43:08.000 So if you're saying they hate our democracy, they hate our freedoms, that's not going to wash if you're invading countries.

00:43:14.000 If you say they hate our democracies, they hate our freedoms, that's not going to wash if you're torturing people or you're outsourcing your torture to dictators that you support financially.

00:43:23.000 Now, this is true with the UK as well as the US, right?

00:43:27.000 It's now established.

00:43:28.000 What I'm saying now isn't any longer in dispute, but it used to be when I first started talking about it.

00:43:32.000 There's a guy called Abdul Hakim Bilhaj from Libya, who it's now been established that the British authorities outsourced his torture.

00:43:42.000 And that's now not even in dispute anymore.

00:43:44.000 And they relied on the intelligence that they knew they got through him being tortured in a third country.

00:43:49.000 It's called extraordinary rendition.

00:43:51.000 When Western countries outsource torture to dictators and then rely on that intelligence to make their next move.

00:43:57.000 And my point is, if you're fighting for your values, right?

00:44:01.000 Joe, if you're reacting because you're a father and you want to defend your children, the last thing you're going to do that is consistent with that is harm other people's children.

00:44:09.000 If you're fighting to defend children.

00:44:11.000 So you're saying to me you're fighting for your values.

00:44:13.000 But then don't outsource torture.

00:44:16.000 Don't invade countries.

00:44:18.000 Don't arbitrarily kill people from the skies without due process.

00:44:21.000 Like a 17 year old American, Anwar al-Awlaki's son, who was bombed under Obama's presidency in Yemen because they wanted a father.

00:44:29.000 They knew the 17 year old was there next to him and they decided to bomb anyway.

00:44:33.000 And the thing is, if you start behaving like this, of course, every action causes a reaction.

00:44:37.000 And there's me in the middle trying to say, these guys are wrong, but this is also wrong.

00:44:42.000 Yes.

00:44:42.000 Now that machine, it took me a while, 10 years of attempting to try and, you know, rein in the excess on both sides.

00:44:49.000 Of course, doesn't earn you any friends.

00:44:50.000 Can I ask you more about the process?

00:44:52.000 Like, how do you go about meeting these people?

00:44:54.000 Like, how does this set up?

00:44:55.000 Like, how do you meet Trudeau?

00:44:56.000 How are you meeting Bush?

00:44:57.000 How is this facilitated?

00:45:00.000 At the time, I was the only one publicly speaking about any of this.

00:45:04.000 And so they were all desperate to hear from me.

00:45:06.000 Because you were someone who was radicalized at one point in time and had converted over and they trusted you?

00:45:13.000 Every single one of these was an invitation.

00:45:15.000 I didn't ask for any of these.

00:45:16.000 And how did they know of you?

00:45:19.000 When I left Hizr al-Tahrir, so it's interesting because we forget what the media world used to look like with the internet today.

00:45:28.000 I did all the kind of, you know, the prime time.

00:45:30.000 So I did in the UK BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman here.

00:45:33.000 I did CBS 60 Minutes.

00:45:36.000 Larry King.

00:45:37.000 So what used to be the primetime shows?

00:45:40.000 They're not anywhere, right?

00:45:42.000 So people would see this guy on the CBS 60 Minutes, like, who the hell is this guy?

00:45:48.000 He's been in jail, he's now speaking against this stuff.

00:45:51.000 So I would be invited.

00:45:53.000 I was invited to Bush's home.

00:46:14.000 If you remember, Bush was that whole waterboarding and redefining torture, right?

00:46:18.000 Yes.

00:46:18.000 So he says, stop right there.

00:46:19.000 So I stopped.

00:46:20.000 He looked me in the eyes and said, how do you define torture?

00:46:22.000 Wow.

00:46:24.000 What was your impression of him as a person? 0.98

00:46:27.000 When I looked him back square in the eyes, I said, you know, electrocution on the teeth and genitalia. 0.56

00:46:31.000 And he said, yeah, that's torture. 0.95

00:46:33.000 Carry on.

00:46:34.000 Now, the interesting thing with Bush is I found him to be very personable.

00:46:40.000 But then, you know, that really doesn't mean much when you're in charge of a country that invades another country.

00:46:44.000 But one-on-one, he was very easy to talk to.

00:46:46.000 Did he seem slow?

00:46:48.000 No.

00:46:48.000 Not at all, right?

00:46:49.000 No.

00:46:49.000 Was that an act, do you think?

00:46:51.000 That kind of down-home, aw shucks type?

00:46:53.000 What I've learned is look at media narratives today.

00:46:58.000 And it's so often the impression we have in media is a narrative built up.

00:47:02.000 And especially in those days, before we had decentralized media, Isn't it fascinating that today he is thought of as a reasonable Republican?

00:47:30.000 And he's thought of as like, boy, if only George W. Bush was running for president.

00:47:35.000 Like, we think about him, the standards of behavior.

00:47:40.000 Everything is shifted, and Trump threw a monkey wrench into the gears that fucked up the machine so hard that they look back with nostalgia of the days of Bush.

00:47:52.000 But I can remember when Bush was president, the hate that people had for him.

00:47:57.000 It was palpable.

00:47:59.000 And then when we invaded Iraq, then it changed.

00:48:05.000 Because after 9-11, then he had given this big speech and he had stepped up in this way where we felt comfortable, like, fine, we have a leader.

00:48:15.000 We've been attacked.

00:48:16.000 We have to unite as a nation.

00:48:17.000 This is a real leader.

00:48:19.000 And he gave a real speech.

00:48:20.000 And even Democrats were saying yes.

00:48:22.000 We have a real president.

00:48:23.000 One thing that's interesting about those years is before the invasion of Iraq, Muslim Americans used to generally vote Republican.

00:48:32.000 And the reason was largely, again, there's always exceptions, the reason was largely because of the social conservative family values.

00:48:39.000 Muslims are very socially conservative.

00:48:41.000 Believe in family, believe in community, and all the debates you hear today about liberals and the whole kind of, you know, LGBT and all that stuff, you can imagine coming from a religious background, Muslims are a lot more conservative on that stuff.

00:48:56.000 They used to vote for Republican Party and then Iraq happened and they switched to the Democrats.

00:49:01.000 And I think we're in a moment now where that switch is going back from the Democrats back very slowly back to the Republicans again.

00:49:07.000 And Trump's last election result demonstrated that trend because despite Trump's presidency and I often get accused of all sorts of things.

00:49:16.000 Look, I have been on the streets in London protesting President Trump when he floated the Muslim ban because I'm married to a beautiful American woman.

00:49:24.000 And I was worried about being banned coming into America.

00:49:27.000 With my background, it actually meant something.

00:49:29.000 So I was on the streets protesting Trump.

00:49:31.000 So despite me, you know, what I'm about to say, I don't want anyone to misinterpret and suddenly imagine the Trump supporters.

00:49:36.000 I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

00:49:38.000 They haven't lived my life.

00:49:39.000 They don't know why I think what I think.

00:49:42.000 But having protested Trump, It is interesting to see the results that he got in these elections.

00:49:48.000 His share of the Muslim vote went up and his share of the African-American vote went up, not down.

00:49:53.000 This last 2020 election.

00:49:55.000 And I think that's the beginning of something that's happening where people on the social stuff, these communities, and the same for Latino votes, by the way, these communities, I think they're beginning to prioritize their social conservative once more because when you look to foreign policy,

00:50:11.000 there's not really too much that Biden redeems himself on.

00:50:15.000 So I think that that vote is going to switch back again.

00:50:17.000 But yeah, these guys, I attempted for about 10 years, through my then organization, Quilliam, to attempt to, pretty much as happened to me on the Islamist side, to attempt to try and soften some of that hard edge of the war.

00:50:31.000 How was that met with Bush?

00:50:34.000 He was charming, but of course it wasn't ever going to be Bush.

00:50:36.000 It was going to be the people around him.

00:50:38.000 What was his perspective on what you were saying?

00:50:40.000 The last two years of the Bush presidency, I think they really began getting to grips with some of this.

00:50:47.000 And again, that's not a popular thing to say.

00:50:49.000 And I remember the time, those last two years, they began realizing that this has to be more of an ideological and intellectual conversation and not a physical war.

00:50:59.000 You can't win.

00:51:01.000 In this war, there was no way anyone was going to win.

00:51:04.000 And so they were stuck in this situation where it was many years deep into the war and realizing that they had done everything that they were trying to avoid.

00:51:12.000 We had had that one desert storm war and I think people had come under the impression that if we were to invade a country, it would be very quick and very easy.

00:51:20.000 We had this very American-centric idea of what would go on in a war.

00:51:27.000 And because of that, it made us so much more willing to enter into wars.

00:51:32.000 It's insane.

00:51:33.000 It's insane.

00:51:33.000 If a foreign army occupied America, would you just sit back and let them stay here for 10?

00:51:37.000 I mean, come on.

00:51:38.000 No man worth his salt is going to sit there and watch a foreign army in their... 1.00

00:51:42.000 If anyone invaded Britain, I'd be the first to say, sign me up. 1.00

00:51:44.000 Where do I join?

00:51:45.000 No one is just going to let foreign troops in their land, right? 0.99

00:51:48.000 But this madness was brought about because back in those days, Bush didn't even know the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims. 0.96

00:51:55.000 It was just pure ignorance.

00:51:57.000 The foreign policy neoconservative machine was hoodwinked by this guy called Chalabi in Iraq, who convinced them that if you invade, everything's going to be hunky-dory.

00:52:06.000 Iraq is going to blossom into this democracy.

00:52:08.000 All that ended up happening is 60% of Iraq was Shia.

00:52:11.000 You end up creating this satellite of sphere of influence for Iran. 0.55

00:52:15.000 Because Iran is Shia origin country and it ended up having this disproportionate influence in Iraq as a result.

00:52:21.000 And you end up with a situation today.

00:52:23.000 I mean, it's a mess.

00:52:24.000 When you think back to this man trying to convince the Bush administration that everything was going to be fine, it was going to blossom into a democracy.

00:52:32.000 What do you think was his motivation?

00:52:35.000 Do you think ultimately he knew that the Shia and the Sunni would go to battle and there would be a massive conflict and that it would destabilize the region?

00:52:44.000 Do you think he was aware of that or do you think they were operating on ignorance or do you think they were operating under this premise that they were going to get to control the natural resources and it was worth it financially and they would sort it all out?

00:52:56.000 Well, you know, individual intentions aside, if you look to Cheney, if you look to Rumsfeld, and if you looked at this guy, Chalabi, who was from the Iraqi National Congress, and if you look at everything that happened since then, and the behavior in Iraq and beyond, It's definitely not about bringing democracy.

00:53:13.000 Now, the jury's out for me.

00:53:15.000 Is it oil?

00:53:16.000 Is it natural resources?

00:53:18.000 Is it strategic positioning?

00:53:20.000 It's definitely not the reason that we were told.

00:53:23.000 And it certainly wasn't weapons of mass destruction.

00:53:25.000 That was all built on a lie.

00:53:26.000 And that's also come out since.

00:53:28.000 Do you think they knew about the lie, for sure?

00:53:31.000 How many people do you think knew about, like when they were broadcasting on CNN, weapons of mass destruction, we have to invade Iraq. 0.90

00:53:38.000 Who do you think knew that that was not true?

00:53:40.000 Remember Colin Powell?

00:53:41.000 Yes. 1.00

00:53:42.000 I'm quite sure he knew he was speaking bullshit. 1.00

00:53:44.000 God, that's so hard to believe. 1.00

00:53:46.000 That's so hard to believe because he's so admired.

00:53:50.000 And when you have an example of a man who has a distinguished military career and then goes on to be a distinguished politician, he's one of the best examples we've ever had.

00:54:00.000 But you remember, he was opposed to it for a long time.

00:54:02.000 Yes.

00:54:02.000 And then he gave that one speech.

00:54:03.000 I think it was at the UN? Yes.

00:54:04.000 And I think that's the point, that he knew what was going on.

00:54:07.000 He was opposed to it.

00:54:07.000 He didn't want to follow this.

00:54:08.000 He had a vial of something, right?

00:54:10.000 And then somebody gave him something.

00:54:11.000 And then he said, all right, you know.

00:54:12.000 And I think when he did that, that speech, I think he knew in his heart something's not right.

00:54:17.000 What was the vial?

00:54:18.000 What did he have?

00:54:19.000 I can't remember, but it was used as evidence, right?

00:54:22.000 Yes.

00:54:22.000 What we've had since in the UK is an inquiry, and they found that Tony Blair pretty much, you know, they all knew that something wasn't right with this intelligence they were given.

00:54:30.000 And this 15 minutes thing, it just wasn't right, you know?

00:54:33.000 And the guy that exposed it, one of our scientists in the UK... 15 minutes thing?

00:54:37.000 That Saddam can strike within 15 minutes of it, yeah? 0.98

00:54:41.000 Yeah.

00:54:41.000 And there's a guy who, in particular with the weapons of mass destruction...

00:54:45.000 Now, again, caveat, Saddam is no picnic. 0.89

00:54:48.000 Right?

00:54:48.000 Yes, for sure.

00:54:49.000 I mean, the man has gassed his own people.

00:54:50.000 He's the Iraqi equivalent of Mubarak that did what he did to us in Egypt. 1.00

00:54:54.000 And his sons were the most evil.

00:54:55.000 I mean, again, people think I'm going to defend...

00:54:58.000 This isn't about defending Saddam.

00:54:59.000 It's just true.

00:55:00.000 The first death in our organization, my former group, was in Iraq.

00:55:05.000 One of our members was tortured to death by Saddam.

00:55:07.000 We were attempting to overthrow Saddam too, right?

00:55:09.000 So this is no favoritism to Saddam Hussein coming from me.

00:55:12.000 What I'm saying is that you don't go into war based on a lie.

00:55:16.000 And this guy called Dr. Kelly in the UK, he was the scientist from our whatever, our defense sector, who exposed this lie.

00:55:24.000 He turned out dead a couple of weeks later.

00:55:26.000 No one knows what happened to him, but he's dead.

00:55:28.000 So it's just all weird, right?

00:55:31.000 Died of what?

00:55:32.000 They found him dead in his car.

00:55:34.000 I think it's officially suicide, whatever.

00:55:36.000 Who knows?

00:55:37.000 Yeah.

00:55:37.000 I don't know.

00:55:38.000 Was Epstein suicide?

00:55:39.000 I say no.

00:55:40.000 What do you say?

00:55:41.000 It doesn't look like it, does it?

00:55:42.000 I get very uncomfortable when people say he did commit suicide.

00:55:45.000 It's a bit weird, isn't it?

00:55:46.000 Well, I start asking them questions.

00:55:48.000 Why do you think that?

00:55:49.000 Like, did you look at the autopsy?

00:55:51.000 Did you ever hear Michael Baden speak about it, where he talks about the ligature marks at the bottom of his neck, which indicate he was strangled?

00:55:58.000 Did you hear about the broken bones, rather, in his neck?

00:56:02.000 Like that don't exist normally when people hang themselves.

00:56:06.000 They usually are only from someone being strangled.

00:56:09.000 There's a desire, the camera thing, the security guards conveniently sleeping, like there's so much.

00:56:17.000 It's all strange.

00:56:18.000 But it's in front of everybody's face.

00:56:20.000 Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

00:56:22.000 Ta-da! 1.00

00:56:23.000 And you're like, holy shit. 1.00

00:56:24.000 If the lie's big enough, right? 0.99

00:56:26.000 This is a good one, though.

00:56:27.000 I mean, it's quite extraordinary that they were able to pull that off.

00:56:31.000 They were able to pull that off in front of everyone's eyes.

00:56:33.000 Well, I mean, I don't know if they've pulled it off.

00:56:36.000 I'm not so sure people deep down really, really, truly believe that that's...

00:56:40.000 I mean, everyone, I think, realizes more than meets the eye with that.

00:56:43.000 Yeah, I think so too.

00:56:45.000 People don't want to speak about it.

00:56:46.000 But it's gone on long enough that I think it's going to be a part of the past.

00:56:50.000 And people are just going to go, what happened to him?

00:56:52.000 Who knows?

00:56:53.000 What happened to Kennedy?

00:56:54.000 Who knows?

00:56:55.000 Like I just said with Dr. Kelly, right?

00:56:56.000 Yes.

00:56:57.000 Who knows?

00:56:58.000 But what we have learned from that is...

00:57:00.000 That it's easy to manufacture consent around something that isn't true for foreign policy purposes.

00:57:07.000 It was done with Iraq. 0.98

00:57:09.000 And my whole thing was, how do we stop that happening again?

00:57:12.000 That's what I was trying to do.

00:57:13.000 With Bush?

00:57:14.000 With all of them.

00:57:15.000 All the way through to Cameron.

00:57:17.000 What kind of dialogue did you have with Bush in terms of trying to convince him to take a different approach?

00:57:23.000 Well, so as I say, in these last two years, they were listening.

00:57:27.000 So I met with Secretary Chertoff, who founded the Homeland Security.

00:57:31.000 He used to be a judge.

00:57:33.000 And we would work very closely with Homeland Security and that entire group And what happened was, if you recall, so those last two years, then Obama got elected.

00:57:45.000 And as always, just as we felt we were beginning to make progress, I mean, one of my bugbears has long been we have to shut Guantanamo Bay down.

00:57:53.000 This idea that we can throw people in jail for years and years and years over decades with no charge, right?

00:58:02.000 It started with jihadi prisoners. 0.59

00:58:06.000 You move to Syria, it moved from jihadi prisoners to their wives and their children now. 0.96

00:58:11.000 So there's just been a jailbreak in Syria, an ISIS attempted jailbreak.

00:58:16.000 Now, there's a bit of detail to that story that's more interesting than the fact that ISIS, in the first organized attack, For many years since the fall of their so-called Islamic State have demonstrated that they've regrouped because they had a full frontal assault on this jail.

00:58:34.000 But that's not what interests me.

00:58:36.000 And I think that the Kurdish forces have retaken it just yesterday.

00:58:40.000 What interests me is the detail in this little story.

00:58:43.000 And that is that it turns out that there were hundreds of children in this jail.

00:58:48.000 Children born to ISIS fighters who nobody wanted to take care of, so they threw them in this adult jihadi prison. 0.71

00:58:56.000 Hundreds of children, some of whom died in this attempted jailbreak.

00:59:00.000 So we've gone from...

00:59:01.000 And this is where, when the Overton window shifts in that way, when you say, oh, Bush's years, if only, our value system has shifted so much to a point.

00:59:09.000 We are now...

00:59:11.000 Living with this idea that our states and our allies can throw children in jail for years with some of the most dangerous people on the planet.

00:59:19.000 And it went from jihadis in Guantanamo to in Syria now to their wives and children, including, by the way, Western citizens.

00:59:27.000 So this jailbreak, some of the kids that were killed, 16 year olds, 17 year olds, Western citizens, Australians, you know, and others, American as an American kid in the Times newspaper.

00:59:36.000 And why were they in the prison?

00:59:37.000 Because they were taken there as kids by their jihadi parents. 1.00

00:59:41.000 And nobody wants to do, no Western government, credit to America, under Trump, you guys took back all your foreign fighters from ISIS. Britain hasn't done so, nor have most European countries.

00:59:52.000 Took back all our foreign fighters.

00:59:54.000 Who were Americans who went to join ISIS, yeah.

00:59:57.000 They're now back in the, you know, you bring them back and if there's a crime to answer for, you put them on trial.

01:00:02.000 But what you haven't done, what America hasn't done, is say, you know what, I don't give a damn.

01:00:06.000 They might be American, but they can stay in Syria. 1.00

01:00:10.000 And even if they're sentenced in Syria, say they finish their time, where do they go?

01:00:15.000 Right.

01:00:16.000 So that's what's happened is nobody.

01:00:17.000 So there's camps.

01:00:18.000 There are entire camps.

01:00:19.000 They're just internship camps, concentration camps or intern camps, like Al-Hawl, Camp Al-Hawl in Syria, where there's women and children, kids from babies, and they're growing up and they're giving birth in these prisons, and no one's charged them or convicted them of anything.

01:00:33.000 So they're essentially being raised in these prisons.

01:00:36.000 They are born and raised in prisons.

01:00:37.000 Jesus Christ.

01:00:38.000 Now you go from Guantanamo to that, and I'm going to bring you to another stage, right?

01:00:41.000 We're talking about the Overton window of acceptability shifting.

01:00:44.000 We've got a Home Secretary in the UK right now called Priti Patel.

01:00:47.000 She then suggested that, what do you do with these boat people that come over from France and they're trying to cross the English Channel, undocumented migrants, they're landing in Britain.

01:00:56.000 What do you do with them?

01:00:56.000 She said, I know what we can do with them.

01:00:58.000 Arrest them. 0.77

01:01:00.000 And then put them in a camp in Rwanda.

01:01:02.000 So you've gone from, we've gone from arbitrarily interning jihadis to arbitrarily interning their wives and their children to now arbitrarily interning anyone who's undocumented in these camps.

01:01:14.000 That's not the kind of world I want to see going forward.

01:01:17.000 It's like that movie Elysium, right?

01:01:19.000 Yes.

01:01:19.000 That's not the kind of world I want to see going forward.

01:01:21.000 So this is the kind of thing that I was upset with in that machine.

01:01:25.000 And I'm trying to work in the machine to say, what you guys are doing is making the problem worse with this kind of behavior.

01:01:30.000 Power, brute force, does not fix your problems.

01:01:33.000 And these conversations with Bush in particular, what was that like?

01:01:36.000 How did he respond to this?

01:01:38.000 So, Bush was one meeting.

01:01:41.000 And after that one meeting, I was able to speak to the administration.

01:01:43.000 And as I say, so for the last two years, I felt, we felt, we were beginning to make progress.

01:01:48.000 Obama gets in, and then they want to reinvent the wheel.

01:01:52.000 And a lot of people, when they look at Obama, they think, a great president.

01:01:55.000 Again, I'm not going to mince my words, and I don't want anyone to say, R.C. Majid is this or that.

01:01:59.000 Guys, you've got to understand, I didn't even come from this system.

01:02:03.000 I wanted to overthrow the whole thing, Obama and Bush together.

01:02:05.000 I was anti-democracy, full stop.

01:02:07.000 So this is not about me supporting Bush, supporting Obama, supporting Trump, supporting anyone.

01:02:11.000 I'm looking at this from the outside and seeing what's going wrong vis-a-vis this specific debate.

01:02:16.000 Yeah?

01:02:17.000 And speaking objectively about it, regardless of whether you're left-wing or right-wing.

01:02:21.000 So Obama comes in, and this man launches more drone strikes than Bush, has a kill list, which Bush never had, that is unaccountable.

01:02:28.000 That kill list he made, including American citizens, was not accountable to Congress.

01:02:32.000 So on the physical war side, he basically did even more than Bush did.

01:02:38.000 With his assassinations, with his NSA spying, with his...

01:02:44.000 Military approach to solving problems with his drones, more drone strikes than Bush ever conducted.

01:02:49.000 He just ratcheted up the military side of this.

01:02:52.000 And we were then, when Obama became president, my work was for a long time ostracized from the Obama administration because of this point.

01:03:01.000 And then where he should have done something, like the rise of ISIS, completely useless.

01:03:04.000 So your work was ostracized because you were working towards peace and a less brutal approach, and he was conducting drone strikes and NSA surveillance.

01:03:12.000 They didn't want to hear what I just said to him.

01:03:13.000 They just didn't want to hear that.

01:03:14.000 They didn't want to hear it.

01:03:14.000 But they knew your position, and did you eventually get to meet with him?

01:03:19.000 Not him.

01:03:20.000 Not him.

01:03:21.000 Wow.

01:03:21.000 I met Hillary Clinton, I met Madeleine Albright, but I didn't meet Obama.

01:03:26.000 Did you ever meet anybody that smelled like sulfur?

01:03:29.000 What?

01:03:30.000 Any of those people?

01:03:31.000 What? 0.99

01:03:31.000 They're like, they're evil. 0.99

01:03:32.000 This is an evil person. 0.98

01:03:33.000 This is for sure straight from hell. 0.99

01:03:36.000 So, anyway. 1.00

01:03:38.000 Just fucking around. 0.99

01:03:39.000 No, no, it's good enough. 1.00

01:03:40.000 But you met Hillary Clinton.

01:03:42.000 You met George Bush.

01:03:43.000 Who else did you meet inside the organization?

01:03:46.000 On the U.S. side, Madeleine Albright, Secretary Chertoff when he was head of the Homeland Security Department.

01:03:53.000 Was any one group or one administration more open to your ideas?

01:03:59.000 No.

01:03:59.000 Well, the same thing happened.

01:04:00.000 It's usually the case, right?

01:04:01.000 It takes six years.

01:04:02.000 Last two years of the Obama administration, like the last two years of Bush, they began listening to us.

01:04:07.000 And then, of course, Trump comes in.

01:04:11.000 Now, the interesting thing is, again, the whole ISIS problem was playing out under Obama.

01:04:20.000 But what I began witnessing is that machine, I'm going to call it mission creep.

01:04:24.000 You've got to a situation now, under Biden, Where even those who are Trump supporters, who question the U.S. election and its transparency, are now being defined as domestic extremists or domestic terrorists.

01:04:40.000 And this is where I have to exit.

01:04:42.000 Because I'm saying, okay, hold on.

01:04:44.000 You guys, first of all, you have no idea what extremism is.

01:04:47.000 You have no idea what terrorism is.

01:04:49.000 And if you're going to weaponize that language and start applying it onto people that question an election, I cannot be a part of that.

01:04:56.000 So I shut Quilliam down.

01:04:59.000 Unilaterally just shut the thing down.

01:05:00.000 I will not be used to stigmatize Trump voters as domestic extremists.

01:05:06.000 Extremism, terrorism is a very specific thing.

01:05:08.000 It's like racism.

01:05:09.000 You disagreeing with me isn't racist, right?

01:05:11.000 But that's how it's being used often these days, right?

01:05:14.000 And you're going to use that.

01:05:15.000 People like me that actually dodge hammer attacks, machete attacks, screwdriver attacks, watch friends get stabbed over that thing called racism.

01:05:22.000 I will stop you misusing that word because I know that if the boy cries wolf...

01:05:27.000 That when some little kid like me is trying to run away from the real racists, no one's going to believe them.

01:05:31.000 Would you categorize people like the January 6th attack?

01:05:37.000 At the very least, there's some amongst them that are extremists.

01:05:43.000 There was people that showed up at the Capitol with zip ties.

01:05:47.000 I mean, and they were looking for politicians.

01:05:50.000 There are some amongst them that most certainly were extremists.

01:05:53.000 Absolutely.

01:05:54.000 That's like there's some among Muslims that were extremists.

01:05:56.000 Do you see the concern, though, from the administration that at the very least, there's the beginnings of something that could be absolutely awful?

01:06:07.000 Yeah, and that's where you've got to be accurate in your language.

01:06:10.000 Right, but I think that's the problem, right?

01:06:12.000 They use hyperbole, they use exaggeration, and also they use agent provocateurs.

01:06:18.000 Precisely.

01:06:18.000 That conversation where Ted Cruz was speaking to the woman from the FBI, I'm sure you've seen that?

01:06:24.000 Yeah.

01:06:24.000 Where she said, have you ever incited, has the agency incited violence?

01:06:29.000 I can't answer that.

01:06:30.000 Yeah. 0.87

01:06:31.000 When she rattles off a bunch of things that she can't answer, you're like, hey, there's supposed to be a real fucking clear answer to all those questions. 0.84

01:06:38.000 It's supposed to be no. 0.68

01:06:40.000 No, we don't do any of that stuff because that stuff's illegal.

01:06:44.000 Entrapment is not legal in the UK, but it still is here.

01:06:47.000 And it gets used often.

01:06:49.000 It gets used often.

01:06:50.000 We know there were certain people in that crowd that were with law enforcement.

01:06:54.000 Yes.

01:06:54.000 And they were behaving less than admirably.

01:06:56.000 With intelligence agencies, yeah.

01:06:59.000 And it seems like there was some people that had a vested interest in this going sideways.

01:07:05.000 Yeah.

01:07:05.000 And I think it was a tool to sort of label the administration as being even more awful than they already thought it was.

01:07:14.000 But, you know, it's like you're not vaccinated, right?

01:07:17.000 No.

01:07:18.000 Right.

01:07:18.000 So I start using labels, anti-vaxxer, right, just to try and pigeonhole you before you even speak.

01:07:26.000 Right.

01:07:26.000 So we've got to be careful with language because it's a weapon.

01:07:28.000 Right.

01:07:29.000 The anti-vax thing is a big language issue.

01:07:31.000 So it's the same with the US elections and it's the same with Muslims and terrorism. 1.00

01:07:35.000 And I began realizing that this language was being weaponized for the purposes not of achieving a solution to the problem we're attempting to fix, but for politics.

01:07:46.000 And I thought, you know what, the problem here is I'm going to be instrumentalized.

01:07:49.000 My language, my work is going to be instrumentalized.

01:07:52.000 And so I had to get out and do what I'm doing from the outside in these sorts of conversations instead.

01:07:58.000 There's no way I could remain part of that phenomenon.

01:08:01.000 I mean, look, Joe, you asked me about who won Bush v.

01:08:04.000 Gore in Florida.

01:08:06.000 Till this day, I'll say to you, I think Gore won.

01:08:08.000 Does that make me an extremist?

01:08:09.000 Now, obviously, Bush became president.

01:08:12.000 Obviously, I have to deal with that reality and accept it.

01:08:15.000 But if you ask me, what's my opinion?

01:08:17.000 Bush's brother was governor.

01:08:19.000 There was something going on with the Chads or whatever you call them.

01:08:21.000 Wasn't there something going on with John Kerry, too?

01:08:23.000 Yeah, something a bit weird, right?

01:08:25.000 Now, I've got a right to question Bush v.

01:08:28.000 Gore, just as a Trump voter has a right to question Biden v.

01:08:31.000 Trump.

01:08:32.000 I think you do have a right, and I also think there's an issue where it's fun to think an election's rigged.

01:08:41.000 Fun's a bad word.

01:08:42.000 There's an excitement that attaches to it that's akin to conspiracy theories.

01:08:46.000 It's akin to people that go looking for UFOs.

01:08:48.000 But I wouldn't go so far as to say rigged.

01:08:50.000 My questions were more...

01:08:52.000 But some people do think it's rigged, and that's what's exciting to them.

01:08:55.000 Do you remember the Time Magazine piece?

01:08:57.000 Yeah.

01:08:57.000 Which piece?

01:08:58.000 The piece that explained the wording it used was like, there's a cabal of well-organized, financed people that saved democracy on that day of the election.

01:09:08.000 Oh, that's right.

01:09:09.000 That's right.

01:09:10.000 That's what I'm talking about, right?

01:09:11.000 That leads to questions.

01:09:13.000 That's sneaky talk.

01:09:13.000 Right?

01:09:14.000 And they use the word cabal.

01:09:15.000 Yes.

01:09:16.000 We fortified the election.

01:09:19.000 That's the word they use, fortified, right?

01:09:20.000 So as somebody who at the time was a broadcaster on a talk show on mainstream UK radio, it's my job to say, what the heck is this?

01:09:30.000 So I didn't want to be a part of what I very clearly saw as it's now happening with the Vax debate.

01:09:37.000 Was a weaponization of language, an instrumentalization of those activists that are there to try and fix the problem for political purposes.

01:09:47.000 Yes.

01:09:47.000 So I'm like, listen, you know what?

01:09:49.000 I've done my bit here.

01:09:50.000 I tried to be the Moses in the court of Pharaoh. 0.94

01:09:53.000 I've gone back to my spiritual guide who was there originally, a bit like a Yoda figure.

01:09:57.000 We do a lot of work, by the way, on, as I say, Muslims convicted of high-level terrorism offenses and work with them on physical training, MMA fighting, actually, and spiritual guidance to try and get them back to a solid foundation, less than, minus the hate.

01:10:12.000 So there's a guy from Chicago, there's a few in the UK. These are leaders of the terrorism wings in prisons like Belmarsh.

01:10:20.000 And they've, you know, rehabilitation is a very difficult thing to do.

01:10:23.000 And actually, it's the exception, not the norm.

01:10:26.000 But where you have got that exception, that's why it's so valuable.

01:10:29.000 That's why it's so powerful.

01:10:30.000 So I want to continue with my brother Osman Raja, Sheikh Ali, to do this kind of work, working outside of my media work, outside of my, you know, my activism for civil liberties.

01:10:41.000 I will keep up on the rehabilitation, prison rehabilitation side, but more direct, more one-on-one I tried to work with the system, tried to work with that machine, and the problem is that the mission creep, it didn't just stop, by the way, with the war on terror.

01:10:56.000 But you look at that with the COVID, you look at whatever emergency props up, I've come to the conclusion that there are some nefarious Factions out there that will seek to use this emergency to increase state power.

01:11:08.000 Yeah, this these conversations that you had, did you make any progress?

01:11:14.000 Was there ever a moment where they implemented any of your ideas or took it into consideration and used that information upon making new decisions?

01:11:25.000 Like, what kind of dialogue were you able to have with them?

01:11:28.000 Progress with the public, progress in the messaging, definitely.

01:11:31.000 Progress in humanizing people that come from my background and showing that actually there is a different way, yes.

01:11:38.000 Progress with policy, I'm not very happy.

01:11:41.000 What was their motivation for meeting you then?

01:11:43.000 Why would they want to sit down and talk to you?

01:11:45.000 Say if Hillary Clinton sat down and talked to you, why Trudeau sat down and talked to you?

01:11:49.000 So, the best example I can give for this is, like, why did Sam want to talk to me?

01:11:54.000 Who, prior to that, was very much in that kind of world where there's a problem with Islam, yeah?

01:11:59.000 I met Sam at a debate in New York called, it's an Intelligence Squared debate, where I was arguing for the motion, Islam is a religion of peace, and Ayaan And Douglas Murray, both now my friends, were arguing against that motion.

01:12:13.000 And I met Sam at the dinner afterwards.

01:12:15.000 Now, what happened with Sam is up until that point, he'd been being attacked by whatever, like the Ben Affleck example, yeah, on the Bill Maher show, as being an anti-Muslim, a racist.

01:12:25.000 Now, take that example, put it to governments.

01:12:28.000 Governments are ultimately very sensitive to public opinion.

01:12:31.000 You launch this war on terror, it gets revealed that the whole Iraq thing was built on a fabrication. 0.98

01:12:37.000 Governments are quite sensitive to the idea that actually they are coming across as anti-Muslim and they've got strong Muslim minorities in their countries.

01:12:45.000 You need to fix that problem somehow.

01:12:47.000 And they were desperate for a solution.

01:12:49.000 So they would reach out to me and I think part of it was optics, honestly.

01:12:54.000 I think that also the people...

01:12:56.000 On a junior level, I think genuinely probably wanted to help, but policy doesn't get set at that junior level.

01:13:02.000 And even when you speak to the heads of state, I mean, how much, I don't know, how much of Canada's policy right now is Trudeau, right, versus whichever faction he's with that is in power?

01:13:13.000 What do you think?

01:13:14.000 I think it's more the latter.

01:13:15.000 It's not just one man.

01:13:17.000 It can't be, right?

01:13:18.000 No.

01:13:19.000 Well, it's also when you see their narrative shift and what they say in terms of like mandates and things that they're going to implement, we wouldn't do that, and then that's the norm.

01:13:28.000 Yeah.

01:13:29.000 Like, what do you think is, what's the main factor?

01:13:38.000 I don't know anything about Canada's politics, but if you become the President of the United States, one of the weirdest things about the job is that it's the most important job in the entire country, if not the world, and we have new people doing it.

01:13:51.000 And we have a popularity contest to elect the new person to do it.

01:13:55.000 And you could see through Trump, you don't even have to have experience in government No experience.

01:14:01.000 You don't have to have been a mayor, or a governor, or a senator, nothing.

01:14:05.000 That kind of reinforces the notion that there's a faction who are meant to support that person, right, behind the scenes, who have the experience.

01:14:13.000 You call that the bureaucracy, the civil service, That's why I believe it's never just about that one person.

01:14:20.000 Of course.

01:14:21.000 And unfortunately, what we're witnessing at the moment, I suppose we can come to this later, but what happens when that faction is no longer serving the interests of the values the country's meant to be built on?

01:14:31.000 Right.

01:14:32.000 Then you have a situation where the state is no longer serving the people, which is what I believe we're in at the moment.

01:14:40.000 The state is no longer serving the people.

01:14:42.000 Now, this mission creep, you experienced this during the Bush administration, so you feel like with every administration, it keeps getting deeper?

01:14:54.000 I mean, the best example is that Guantanamo example I spoke to you for.

01:14:57.000 It went from arbitrarily interning the jihadis, who were meant to be like very dangerous people, and now we're putting kids in jail.

01:15:04.000 Right.

01:15:04.000 Who are kids of the jihadis, who were born as, you know, either taken as three, four, five-year-olds, or born in the prison, and they're wives, and everyone's like, oh, no one wants them back.

01:15:13.000 Right now, you go to Camp Al-Haul in Syria, full of wives and children, and they're just running around these camps, and they're in prison.

01:15:19.000 It's a camp.

01:15:20.000 Some of them born there, some were two, three, four years old, and they've grown up in there.

01:15:24.000 Just imagine that, man.

01:15:25.000 Horrifying.

01:15:25.000 You know?

01:15:26.000 I mean, this is the stories we hear about North Korea, and we're horrified about that.

01:15:29.000 Yeah.

01:15:30.000 We're doing it.

01:15:30.000 Yeah.

01:15:31.000 That's terrifying.

01:15:32.000 So that's mission creep for you.

01:15:33.000 That's a classic example of mission creep to a point where it's become politically acceptable for a UK Home Secretary to say, we're going to do the same to undocumented migrants. 0.77

01:15:42.000 Now, that's a problem we have to fix, by the way.

01:15:44.000 Our borders, we've got to work out a solution that's humane to that problem, and it does require a solution.

01:15:49.000 And I do recognize that...

01:15:51.000 Open borders aren't practical.

01:15:53.000 Well, our situation is even stranger because we scoop everybody up, put them at the border, and then, depending on what you believe, distribute them throughout the country on either buses or however they're doing it.

01:16:06.000 Now, if that is true, if they're just allowing people to just come into the country undocumented, you have to wonder, like, what's the motivation behind that?

01:16:15.000 And what is also the motivation about this push to try to allow undocumented people to vote?

01:16:21.000 It's like, are you letting people into the country as a bribe so that they'll vote for the people that let them into the country versus the people that wanted to secure the borders and build the wall?

01:16:32.000 So are you...

01:16:33.000 Are you essentially stalking your pond?

01:16:37.000 You're bringing in more people that are going to go with your agenda?

01:16:42.000 Well, there's all this thing in this country, this massive contradiction, right?

01:16:46.000 Where you can't have someone...

01:16:58.000 Yeah.

01:17:03.000 Yeah.

01:17:04.000 Yeah.

01:17:13.000 It's crazy, right?

01:17:14.000 But you can...

01:17:15.000 This is what I mean by politicization of all these debates.

01:17:18.000 It's so inconsistent, and it's so...

01:17:21.000 They're both simultaneously existing from the same people, where they're espousing one thing that literally contradicts the other thing.

01:17:30.000 Why would you do that, though?

01:17:31.000 Why would any individual...

01:17:34.000 Give a reason for doing thing A, and then ditch that reason and do exactly the opposite for thing B. It shows you that's not the reason.

01:17:41.000 Well, one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you is because I think your perspective is so much different than anyone else's because of your Because when you were radicalized because of your time in prison and because of The incredibly rational way you pursue truth and the way you discuss things now I've seen your BBC program and I've seen you give talks you have a very clean and rational way of Addressing and breaking down all these processes

01:18:11.000 that are in place that cause people to behave a certain way you understand it and Because you were radicalized yourself as well.

01:18:18.000 You understand the mind play that I think is oftentimes It's known of, but not discussed, and certainly not understood deeply like you do.

01:18:29.000 And I think that is the key to all of us understanding what's going on right now, that there's a lot of panic, there's a lot of moral outrage, and a lot of virtue signaling, and a lot of signaling to the tribe, but then there's also these forces that have been moving in play as what you call mission creep,

01:18:48.000 and this is an opportunity for them To push even further in this general direction, and I don't think many people are aware of that.

01:18:56.000 I think they're looking at it in terms of what their ideology supports, whether their ideology is pro-vaccination or their ideology is pro-open borders or pro-close, whatever it is.

01:19:08.000 Like, people are locked into a pre-arranged, pre-determined group of ideas and opinions that you have adopted, that you will support.

01:19:17.000 And it's become almost like a religion.

01:19:20.000 And religions, the problem with the term religion is we always think of it involving a deity.

01:19:26.000 And it doesn't have to involve a deity.

01:19:28.000 The ideas become the deity.

01:19:31.000 The signaling to the group becomes a deity.

01:19:34.000 I think you know that more than anyone.

01:19:37.000 Well, this brings us to contemporary times.

01:19:41.000 After shutting Quilliam down, there was a bit of an overlap, but I primarily became a talk show host on a UK mainstream radio station.

01:19:51.000 And we had call-ins as well.

01:19:53.000 And COVID struck, and I had to take a view on it.

01:19:57.000 Now, I'm double jabbed.

01:19:59.000 And the reason I am is right at the beginning, I gave the benefit of the doubt to the narrative, to the authorities telling us what we needed to do right at the start.

01:20:07.000 And I thought, you know what?

01:20:09.000 I'm not anti-vaccine in principle, so fine.

01:20:12.000 You know, I had no reason to question any of it.

01:20:15.000 What happened is, once they implemented this emergency law, they ditched all of our rights in the UK under this Coronavirus Emergency Act.

01:20:25.000 Now, I've seen that before.

01:20:26.000 That's why I said we've gone back to emergencies, right?

01:20:28.000 I've seen that story play out before.

01:20:31.000 And the problem is the minute the government takes your rights, there are still blowback, legislative blowback from the war on terror that we still haven't got rid of.

01:20:41.000 Patriot Act.

01:20:42.000 In the US, in the UK, the right to silence is now in any port of entry or exit in the UK, Heathrow Airport, shipping port.

01:20:49.000 It's now a criminal offense to stay silent if a counterterrorism investigation is conducted on you.

01:20:54.000 The Terrorism Act 2000 has criminalized your right to silence.

01:20:58.000 So if you are investigated or interviewed by someone and you choose to be silent, they just lock you in jail for that?

01:21:05.000 It happened to me.

01:21:06.000 So when I got out of prison, the Terrorism Act 2000 was already in place.

01:21:09.000 I was released from prison in 2006. I was interrogated under this power and I was informed directly by a police officer, your silence is a criminal offence as is refusing your right for us to take your DNA. They took my DNA by force and I had no right to silence and I had no right to a lawyer.

01:21:25.000 Now what's changed since then is they've reformed the DNA part, they've reformed the legal representation, but the right to silence, that's still there, it's been taken away.

01:21:34.000 Now that's an example of a hangover from the war on terror.

01:21:37.000 There's many.

01:21:37.000 If you remember under Blair, they tried to extend detention without charge for 90 days.

01:21:42.000 So, emergencies, the Patriot Act in the US, emergencies are always used by the state for a power grab.

01:21:49.000 It's the nature of human beings.

01:21:51.000 It's an opportunity.

01:21:52.000 It's an opening that you do.

01:21:54.000 It's like in an MMA fight, if someone stumbles, you dive on his back.

01:21:58.000 Why wouldn't you exploit it?

01:21:59.000 It's natural.

01:22:00.000 You're there to win.

01:22:01.000 And you want to beat your opponent.

01:22:03.000 And it's a massive opportunity to change the paradigm.

01:22:05.000 You change everything that's happening.

01:22:07.000 So, the minute they suspended our rights under the Coronavirus Emergency Act, Is the minute my light started switching on, like, uh-oh, where's this gonna happen?

01:22:16.000 Did you use your platform to advocate for a different approach?

01:22:20.000 Did you say how you felt about this idea of stripping away laws in the idea under the guise of protecting people, that this is not only unnecessary, but it's unproductive, and it leads to bad things, and instead,

01:22:35.000 there could be some sort of advocacy campaign for vaccination, or advocacy campaign for Doing responsible things and social distancing and not taking it to the extreme of changing laws.

01:22:49.000 So look, yes.

01:22:50.000 And where I'm coming from is, back to Egypt, they injected me against my will in prison.

01:22:57.000 With what?

01:22:59.000 Who knows?

01:23:00.000 Just...

01:23:00.000 Inoculations?

01:23:02.000 Who knows what it was.

01:23:03.000 Right.

01:23:03.000 We were taken, and you've just come out of a torture dungeon.

01:23:06.000 Right.

01:23:06.000 And you're going to fight with them and get sent back to the dungeon, and you're going to let them put whatever they want in your arm.

01:23:10.000 So we had a...

01:23:11.000 In the first place, we were prisoners of conscience under duress, which is why, in principle, it was against our will, and there's no point trying to fight it.

01:23:19.000 So, coming from that background, the minute in the UK they started saying, if you don't get your jab, we're going to sack you.

01:23:25.000 No job, no jab, they called it.

01:23:27.000 If you don't get this vaccination, you can't travel.

01:23:31.000 And then it started going from there, mission creep.

01:23:33.000 If you don't get this vaccination, we're going to have a lockdown only for the unvaccinated, which some European countries announced.

01:23:40.000 If you don't get this vaccination, well, we're going to start looking at whether you have to pay a fine every month, which some European countries announced, and some media pundits in the UK were openly advocating on the airwaves.

01:23:52.000 You start hearing this rhetoric.

01:23:55.000 You've got to appreciate, I've come from the background where I've had to reason myself out of a totalitarian agenda and embrace instead something I believe I can hold onto and bring people towards.

01:24:09.000 What was that thing?

01:24:10.000 Well, through the inspiration of Amnesty, it was essentially our values grounded in civil liberties and democracy.

01:24:19.000 I've lost a family over that struggle, yeah?

01:24:22.000 To commit to, in that war on terror, to fighting a war, an ideological war, to defeating darkness in the form of terrorism that was beginning to engulf the Muslim mind. 0.96

01:24:34.000 I've sacrificed a lot in that struggle to come out on the other end of everything I fought for, only to be told that the thing I'm defending is going to start doing the same thing.

01:24:44.000 The state is going to start telling me what I have to put in my body and when and if I don't agree, I can't travel.

01:24:51.000 If I don't agree, I can't work.

01:24:53.000 If I don't agree, I can't leave my home.

01:24:55.000 Now, to play devil's advocate, from their perspective, they want to get people to be inoculated because they want to protect the population, they want to slow the spread of this deadly disease, and they want to bring society back to normal as quickly as possible.

01:25:11.000 They see the tools that are at their disposal, and they decide to use the law to try to make it forced, to try to coerce people into getting vaccinated for their better good.

01:25:24.000 And there's a bipartisan consensus on what you just said.

01:25:27.000 Right.

01:25:27.000 The last time there was a bipartisan consensus on such a big lie was the invasion of Iraq.

01:25:31.000 When you say such a big lie...

01:25:33.000 It's a lie.

01:25:34.000 What is a lie about it?

01:25:36.000 The COVID vaccination doesn't stop infection.

01:25:38.000 It doesn't stop transmission.

01:25:39.000 But it does in the beginning, right?

01:25:40.000 It reduces it for 12 weeks, after which point...

01:25:43.000 Is it only 12 weeks?

01:25:44.000 Doesn't it vary per person?

01:25:46.000 So younger people don't need it.

01:25:48.000 Of course, for older people, when we look at the studies, it's 12 weeks after which point...

01:25:52.000 We're good to go.

01:26:17.000 But isn't it because they thought it did initially?

01:26:21.000 When the initial laws were put into place, the consensus was that it stopped transmission, it stopped infection, and it protected you from hospitalization and death.

01:26:32.000 So, I'm prepared to, on the principle of charity, I'm prepared to assume that's what they thought.

01:26:38.000 It seems like that was the general consensus amongst medical experts in the early days of the vaccine.

01:26:45.000 That's why, you know, many of them that are now, they've come out against these mandates, they talk about the initial days of it, what it was like, and this is why they were in support of this.

01:26:56.000 I'm prepared to concede on the principle of charity without knowing those guys.

01:27:00.000 I mean, I know there were people that weren't establishment scientists that were saying from day one, they were saying there's something wrong with this.

01:27:06.000 Right.

01:27:07.000 But let's apply the principle of charity, because we should.

01:27:09.000 Yes, we should.

01:27:11.000 The minute it became clear, because this is such an egregious violation of human dignity, the minute it became clear, this should have been ditched.

01:27:19.000 But it hasn't.

01:27:21.000 Until today, even in my country, Scotland and Wales haven't dropped these mandates.

01:27:26.000 Now, the other point, though, is let's assume that was their intention.

01:27:30.000 I've got a deeper question which goes beyond the science.

01:27:33.000 And that is that If you've got the power to dictate to people what to put in their bodies on behalf of other people, Right?

01:27:45.000 And you're the state, and that's the law you bring in.

01:27:48.000 Now, that, I believe, is such a fundamental shift in our social contract, in the relationship between you and the state, that it requires not only a broader discussion, I think that requires a democratic mandate to bring in because it's such a fundamental change in direction in Western liberal democracies when it comes to the relationship we have with the state.

01:28:10.000 What do I mean by that?

01:28:12.000 If I said to you, Joe, listen, you've got two kidneys, man.

01:28:14.000 I need one.

01:28:16.000 And you're going to give it to me because the state says you have to look after me.

01:28:19.000 Now, if I have done that without your involvement, without your choice for the common good, and I have the power to be able to do that, and the reasoning I'm giving is...

01:28:33.000 That there are people that deserve this kidney and you have a spare one and that you have to look after other people.

01:28:39.000 Now it could be kidneys, it could be anything.

01:28:40.000 It could be any medical procedure and generally beyond that it can be anything you have to do for other people's sake.

01:28:47.000 Now if I want to redefine that relationship because up until now you had every right to say my blood is my blood and I know someone needs a blood donation or you know or an organ donation.

01:28:57.000 I know I should care for people but it's still my decision.

01:28:59.000 If I'm going to change that And say it's no longer your decision, right?

01:29:04.000 Then it requires a broader and deeper conversation.

01:29:08.000 And it requires, I'd say, that's referendum level change in our culture.

01:29:13.000 Switzerland has referendums.

01:29:15.000 It's like Brexit referendum in the UK. It's referendum level shift because it sets the precedent.

01:29:21.000 That going forward, I have a five-year-old.

01:29:24.000 If I surrender this debate now and I'm 44 years old and say, yes, okay, state, on behalf of protecting Joe, you can force me to do certain medical procedures because I have to think about Joe, right?

01:29:36.000 I've surrendered my individual bodily autonomy for the common good.

01:29:41.000 My five-year-old boy's never going to know what it felt like to say, my body, my choice.

01:29:46.000 Now, what I don't understand is the cognitive dissonance.

01:29:50.000 Because on the one hand, we argue my body, my choice when it comes to abortion.

01:29:53.000 And we suddenly ditch that principle when it comes to vaccination or inoculation.

01:29:59.000 Well, the answer to that is vaccination and inoculation protects those around you.

01:30:04.000 That's what they would say.

01:30:06.000 So, peanuts, yeah?

01:30:08.000 Peanuts?

01:30:08.000 Yeah.

01:30:09.000 So, some people have an allergy to peanuts.

01:30:12.000 It's a minority of people, right?

01:30:14.000 But it's the reason why, and you'll know this, anyone will know this, you go into a restaurant and they ask, do you have any allergies before I order the food?

01:30:20.000 And the reason they do that is because if there's even a trace of a peanut in that dish, you could die.

01:30:25.000 If I'm going to start mandating these injections, we know that there is a rare side effect.

01:30:30.000 We know that there are some people that die from them.

01:30:33.000 Lisa Shaw was a BBC journalist who died after her AstraZeneca vaccine as officially ruled by the coroner and written up by the BBC. I'm in touch with her husband, right?

01:30:43.000 His name is Gareth.

01:30:44.000 Are they more transparent about injuries over there?

01:30:49.000 They've started to be, because our resistance has been very fierce to all of this.

01:30:52.000 England is a bit of an outlier now.

01:30:54.000 They just ditched everything yesterday.

01:30:56.000 There's a lot more to do, but they've ditched what they called Plan B, the whole idea of vaccine passports, because there's been such a fierce resistance to this.

01:31:04.000 So take it back to that peanut.

01:31:05.000 So this woman... 1.00

01:31:05.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:31:06.000 So if I mandate injections, right, vaccination, some people are going to die because we know that there is a side effect that some people die from this thing.

01:31:14.000 Death is a side effect.

01:31:16.000 Yes, minority of people.

01:31:18.000 But it's like peanuts.

01:31:19.000 Right.

01:31:20.000 Right?

01:31:20.000 Now, it's insane to mandate peanuts in every meal.

01:31:24.000 Right?

01:31:24.000 So again, back to looking after...

01:31:26.000 Right, but peanuts don't have any...

01:31:28.000 There's no protecting other people by eating a peanut.

01:31:31.000 Exactly.

01:31:31.000 So go back to the original, because we know that doesn't apply anymore.

01:31:34.000 Right.

01:31:34.000 Beyond 12 weeks, it doesn't even protect people anymore.

01:31:38.000 But let's go back to the original and give them the benefit of the doubt.

01:31:40.000 But doesn't it still protect them from hospitalization and death?

01:31:43.000 Isn't that...

01:31:44.000 Depending on age.

01:31:45.000 Yeah, depending on age, right?

01:31:46.000 So, you know, a 5-year-old?

01:31:48.000 Definitely not.

01:31:49.000 12-year-old?

01:31:49.000 No.

01:31:51.000 My dad is in his 80s, like late 70s, 80s.

01:31:54.000 Yeah, he's had his boosters.

01:31:55.000 And he's got comorbidities.

01:31:59.000 So if the infection fatality rate is 0.096%, like the flu, right?

01:32:05.000 Now the Office for National Statistics in the UK, through a Freedom of Information request, has just revealed the number of people who died solely from COVID with no other coexisting illness.

01:32:15.000 17,731.

01:32:19.000 If my memory serves, it's definitely 17,700 and something.

01:32:22.000 Total number of people from the beginning of this pandemic who've died only from COVID. And this is only in Britain?

01:32:29.000 In Britain, right?

01:32:30.000 We were told the figure was in the hundreds of thousands.

01:32:32.000 Right.

01:32:33.000 Now, this is all coming out in the UK now, yeah?

01:32:35.000 There's a bit of a retreat from all of this narrative.

01:32:38.000 But isn't the problem with that narrative that so many people have comorbidities and we have to protect them too?

01:32:44.000 The thing about this country is there's a large percentage of us that are obese.

01:32:49.000 It's probably somewhere in the neighborhood.

01:32:51.000 We looked at it, right?

01:32:51.000 Was it like 40% or something like that?

01:32:53.000 It's a very high level.

01:32:55.000 So, like, what do we do?

01:32:56.000 So, Lisa Shaw and others.

01:32:57.000 So, you're going to say, I'm going to sack somebody who doesn't protect the other person, yeah?

01:33:00.000 So, what we're saying is, and this is what I'm saying requires a proper debate because it's a shift in our culture.

01:33:06.000 I'm just playing devil's advocate.

01:33:07.000 I know, I know, I know.

01:33:08.000 I've heard you speak on this.

01:33:09.000 Lisa Shaw, who died after her AstraZeneca vaccine, was that death worth it because somebody else can't control their dietary habits? 0.87

01:33:20.000 Obviously, comorbidities vary.

01:33:22.000 It's not just her dietary habits.

01:33:24.000 Someone could have some serious autoimmune disorder.

01:33:27.000 There's quite a few different things that constitute.

01:33:29.000 The big one is dietary habits.

01:33:32.000 Obesity.

01:33:32.000 Obesity is huge.

01:33:33.000 If somebody is vulnerable in any other way, what we've done with every other illness to date is that the vulnerable person has to protect themselves through a number of means.

01:33:42.000 And we do what's reasonable to make sure the vulnerable person is looked after.

01:33:46.000 What we have never done is say that I'm responsible for your comorbidities and your extra health problems, and I have to take something at risk of losing my job that might have a side effect in me and could even kill me.

01:33:57.000 Yes.

01:33:59.000 Because I lose my job or I can't travel or I can't go into this restaurant.

01:34:02.000 Right.

01:34:03.000 Now for me, I mean, the science by now, by the way, is clear, but let's assume this whole conversation is built on the principle of charity that they didn't know the science at the time.

01:34:12.000 Right.

01:34:12.000 That still doesn't exonerate us from the political conversation that was needed about what kind of society we want to live in.

01:34:20.000 Because for me, if you get to a point like New York is today, Wales and Scotland, Well, you're telling me that I need to show identification before going into a restaurant, before going into a hotel, concert.

01:34:32.000 We've got a Papers, Please Society in that case. 0.56

01:34:35.000 Yes.

01:34:35.000 Now, you can't go from a democracy to a Papers, Please Society within one election term without having any consultation with the public on this and without having a proper and informed debate about how this will permanently change the culture of our society.

01:34:53.000 And that's for me a bigger problem.

01:34:55.000 I mean, the science is clear, as I say, but let's have this entire conversation on the assumption that when they initially brought it in, they were genuine, right?

01:35:01.000 Even though now it's proven that that's not the case, but that's fine.

01:35:04.000 I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

01:35:06.000 You want me to concede that from now on and permanently, The state can tell me what to put in my body for the sake of the common good and to continue to do so every six months with a vaccination that hasn't been tested for any long-term side effects.

01:35:24.000 I just have to accept that the state knows what's best for me and always does the right thing.

01:35:29.000 Now, as I say, the last time there was a bipartisan state-based consensus on something so meaningfully wrong was the invasion of Iraq. 0.68

01:35:38.000 Now, you're speaking to somebody who's been on the...

01:35:40.000 On the blunt end of what happens when a state gets something so wrong.

01:35:46.000 There is no way you can undo what I've seen in my life to know that the state doesn't always act in our best interests.

01:35:53.000 And there is no way that you can remove those experiences from me.

01:35:57.000 Now, especially when you're talking to somebody who's been injected against his will in prison, right?

01:36:02.000 And the ethnic minority case here, whether it's here in the US with the African American communities and the whole experience of medical abuse by the state, or I'll move it again to personal example.

01:36:16.000 In Pakistan, the CIA conducted a fake vaccination program on children in the hunt for Bin Laden.

01:36:22.000 That's not even concealed.

01:36:24.000 It's been admitted.

01:36:25.000 Is that Jamie?

01:36:26.000 You can look it up.

01:36:28.000 Vox has reported, everyone's reported, because they've admitted it and apologized for it now.

01:36:31.000 In the hunt for Bin Laden, there was a fake hepatitis B vaccine program on children collecting all their DNA to try and see if they were related to Bin Laden so they could trace Bin Laden.

01:36:41.000 This is why in Pakistan, my family's country of origin, The Taliban blow up vaccination centers because they think they're CIA fronts.

01:36:50.000 Right?

01:36:51.000 So while he's looking that up, I'll keep telling you this story.

01:36:54.000 You know, there we are.

01:36:55.000 How the CIA's fake hepatitis B vaccine program in Pakistan helped fuel vaccine distrust.

01:37:00.000 Wow.

01:37:00.000 Now, you know, what is that?

01:37:02.000 Is that on Fox?

01:37:02.000 That's a fake hepatitis B vaccine program.

01:37:06.000 And Jamie, if you scroll down, it may even contain the CIA's apology in there.

01:37:09.000 Whoops.

01:37:10.000 But many of them do, once it got exposed, yeah?

01:37:12.000 But again, Joe, the only way this gets exposed is when people like us have these conversations.

01:37:16.000 Yeah.

01:37:17.000 Now, you're trying to, not you, but, you know, people are trying to convince me that none of this happened.

01:37:21.000 That the state's always had my best interests at heart.

01:37:24.000 I can't undo those experiences and those memories and the treatment to say, OK, you were wrong on Iraq and you actually lied.

01:37:32.000 You were wrong with this hepatitis B vaccination program in Pakistan.

01:37:35.000 My family still live there.

01:37:37.000 OK, you were wrong there and you lied and you did this fake program using vaccines.

01:37:41.000 But you know what?

01:37:41.000 OK, you were wrong there.

01:37:42.000 But oh, and you were wrong when you injected me in prison.

01:37:45.000 One of your allies, Mubarak, who was one of the closest allies of America after Israel in the Middle East.

01:37:50.000 But this time you're telling me the truth.

01:37:53.000 No, I'm going to question.

01:37:54.000 I'm not saying you're lying.

01:37:55.000 Right.

01:37:56.000 I'm not saying anyone's lying, by the way.

01:37:58.000 But that's a thing where, under crisis, people do not like people questioning the narrative.

01:38:04.000 Because the narrative may offer us relief from this uncomfortable moment we find ourselves currently in.

01:38:10.000 And we all collectively look to something to help us out of this.

01:38:14.000 And for a lot of people, it's the vaccines.

01:38:16.000 So the vaccines became this...

01:38:18.000 This thing that you are not allowed to challenge, and even though we have this dodgy history with the pharmaceutical companies, you're supposed to ignore that.

01:38:27.000 You're supposed to completely put that on the back burner.

01:38:29.000 Well, this is where, again, you can't undo what I know about this, right?

01:38:33.000 So, let's try another one.

01:38:35.000 Can you look up who paid the largest criminal fine in history?

01:38:38.000 Thank you, Jamie.

01:38:39.000 Sorry to give you orders.

01:38:41.000 So, the assumption that pharmaceutical companies are acting in your best interest, just like the assumption that the CIA, when it encourages these things, vaccination programs in, say, Pakistan, is acting in your best interest, is an assumption that has to be interrogated.

01:38:56.000 Now, we know here in America, the opioid crisis, that the medical establishment was abused.

01:39:05.000 And the opioid crisis here in the States ended up killing more people than the AIDS crisis.

01:39:10.000 Now, pharmaceuticals make a lot of money out of this.

01:39:13.000 And so with the who paid the largest criminal fine in history, you'll probably get two results depending on your search engine.

01:39:19.000 And though you don't need to put in the word who paid the largest pharmaceutical fine in history, You can just say who paid the largest criminal fine in history and you'll get GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer.

01:39:29.000 And the difference is, I think the difference was that GlaxoSmithKline have paid the largest accumulative fine and Pfizer has paid the largest fine in one big go.

01:39:40.000 And you can go to something called the violation tracker.

01:39:42.000 Since the year 2000, it documents all of the criminal and civil violations that Pfizer has been found on the wrong side of and has paid fines for.

01:39:52.000 And so this assumption that big pharmaceutical companies are acting in our best interests, again, is an assumption that has to be interrogated because it's during an emergency where debate is being silenced that it becomes incredibly important to ask these questions.

01:40:08.000 Otherwise it gets snuck in and you can never undo it.

01:40:11.000 And when you were working at the BBC, you started doing what you always do.

01:40:17.000 You're questioning narratives, you're discussing ideas openly and objectively.

01:40:22.000 What kind of pushback are you getting?

01:40:24.000 So it was LBC. Oh, LBC. Global is the largest commercial radio group in the UK and they have music channels and what have you.

01:40:33.000 And then one of them was the talk radio site called LBC. And I was having these sorts of conversations.

01:40:39.000 And without going into whatever, you know, because I'm no longer there.

01:40:43.000 So for legal reasons, I don't want to get into what specifically happened.

01:40:47.000 What I will say is I was scheduled to go on the very next weekend after returning from my Christmas break in Tennessee.

01:40:53.000 And a day before my schedule was I had a weekend show.

01:40:57.000 I was doing really well.

01:40:58.000 You know, imagine a weekend lunchtime.

01:40:59.000 When everyone should be in their restaurants having a good time, having their Bloody Marys, having their Sunday roasts.

01:41:04.000 And I was getting over half a million listeners on a weekend lunchtime for only two shows a week.

01:41:09.000 And it went from a graveyard shift to being a really respected slot.

01:41:13.000 One day before reappearing this month, they told me that my services were no longer required.

01:41:19.000 But the part isn't in dispute.

01:41:22.000 The indisputable part is my contract was on until April.

01:41:27.000 But I'm not there anymore.

01:41:29.000 Did they have a conversation with you at any point in time before that where they're like, well, you probably can't talk about that.

01:41:34.000 I can't talk about that.

01:41:34.000 But I know that what I will say is why people, other people outside of my then bosses, were upset with me, including in the organization, was because I was having these sorts of conversations I'm having with you.

01:41:47.000 That CIA Pakistan thing, multiple times mentioned it on my show.

01:41:51.000 I actually physically pulled out my phone and asked my listeners to Google who paid the largest criminal fine in history and had them call in.

01:41:56.000 Yep, Pfizer, Pfizer, Pfizer.

01:41:59.000 So that kind of conversation where I'm trying to, by the way, all while being double jabbed, I got two Pfizer vaccinations.

01:42:08.000 So people still throwing anti-vaxxer labels at me.

01:42:12.000 And this is the problem.

01:42:14.000 It's like the Southern Poverty Law Center called me an anti-Muslim extremist.

01:42:18.000 Whoa.

01:42:20.000 And they listed me as an anti-Muslim extremist.

01:42:23.000 At the same time, there's a database called Thomson Reuters World Check.

01:42:29.000 All the banks, all the large accountancy firms, all the big money firms in Wall Street, in the city of London, they all subscribe to World Check because if you have a bank account, they want to make sure that you're not funding terrorism.

01:42:41.000 So World Check is a database that categorizes you as to whether you're clean or not when it comes to finances from a terrorism lens.

01:42:49.000 I'm probably the only person you'll meet on the planet that was simultaneously listed by well-checked Thomson Reuters under category red, terrorism, as a Muslim terrorist, while listed at the same time by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-Muslim extremist.

01:43:06.000 Right?

01:43:07.000 But didn't they say Sam was one of those two?

01:43:09.000 They didn't list him.

01:43:11.000 Ayaan Arsiali was listed.

01:43:13.000 So what I did is I sued them, both.

01:43:16.000 And I won against Thomson Reuters World Check.

01:43:19.000 They had to publicly apologize in court, remove that defamation, and they paid damages.

01:43:24.000 And I sued the Southern Poverty Law Center.

01:43:26.000 That didn't get to court because before disclosure, they publicly put out a video, apologized, and paid damages.

01:43:32.000 But what that story serves to tell you is that when you question these things, today it's so lazy and easy to throw labels at people.

01:43:40.000 So being double-jabbed, they call me an anti-vaxxer.

01:43:43.000 Being a Muslim that had literally gone to jail for my faith, they were calling me an anti-Muslim extremist. 0.93

01:43:49.000 And this is how absurd these people are.

01:43:52.000 That you disagree with somebody and instead of trying to engage with the substance of your point, they want to throw a label at you and hope it sticks.

01:43:59.000 And isn't this just what happens when people get into power?

01:44:03.000 And when I say into power, I'm not just talking about government.

01:44:07.000 I'm also talking about people that have accepted a certain narrative and find that there's a lot of other people that are along with them in this same narrative.

01:44:15.000 And they have these Media pylons, like social media pylons, where they'll attack people.

01:44:22.000 And like you, call you an anti-vaxxer even though you've been vaccinated.

01:44:26.000 The same thing with Eric Clapton.

01:44:28.000 They were angry at Eric Clapton because he spoke openly about his very extreme vaccine side effects.

01:44:34.000 Just speaking openly as a person who was vaccinated.

01:44:38.000 And they called him a vile anti-vaxxer.

01:44:41.000 Well, the question is why, right?

01:44:43.000 And it's to shut debate down.

01:44:45.000 Now, why would you want to shut debate down?

01:44:47.000 I think there's a deeper point here, and that is that we've just come out of a time where, for a long time, moral and Let's just say relativism,

01:45:03.000 whether it's moral or otherwise.

01:45:05.000 Relativism, this idea that truth is relative, this idea that it's all subjective, that everything is personal experience, that's being promoted.

01:45:14.000 There's no such thing as reality.

01:45:15.000 Whether it comes down to defining a man or woman.

01:45:18.000 We spoke about this last time I was here with, well, it was there in California, but with Sam as well, we spoke about the trans debate.

01:45:26.000 Whether it's defining a man and a woman, whether it's anything else, this idea that actually truth is all personally subjective.

01:45:34.000 When you promote the idea that there's no such thing as truth, and when you shut down debate that is seeking truth, not that it claims truth, but is seeking it, when you shut that debate down, in aid of this idea that truth is relative,

01:45:51.000 Like those, for example, who now know the science that the COVID vaccination doesn't stop infection or transmission and doesn't reduce it beyond 12 weeks.

01:46:01.000 The booster shot, by the way, is eight weeks.

01:46:04.000 But having known that and they still insist on vaccine passports, it's no longer about seeking the truth for them.

01:46:12.000 The truth is relative and it serves a purpose.

01:46:14.000 What happens when you do that?

01:46:16.000 When there's no such thing as truth, you can't define reality.

01:46:20.000 And when you can't define reality, the only thing that matters is power.

01:46:25.000 You're a father.

01:46:26.000 Now, we're your child, children who can't reason, like my kid's five.

01:46:31.000 I mean, his reasoning abilities are great, but he's five, right?

01:46:33.000 It's why you say to the child, because I said so, do it.

01:46:36.000 It's good for you.

01:46:37.000 Because they don't know how to reason yet, yeah?

01:46:40.000 And you try, and if something's too complex, you say, I'll explain another time, but right now you have to listen to your father, don't do this.

01:46:47.000 When there's no such thing as truth, because everything's relative, the only thing that matters is power, because power gets to define reality.

01:46:55.000 And this brings us to the hybrid war we're in right now.

01:46:58.000 And that's why people that are in power who are seeking a specific outcome from the world that we're in want to shut debate down.

01:47:07.000 What they're not interested in is seeking truth.

01:47:09.000 What they're interested in is shutting that debate down because power steps into that void when reason no longer exists and gets to define reality for you from up above.

01:47:19.000 And it's why it's so important in a dictatorship.

01:47:23.000 That the only thing you have left when all your power is taken from you is the truth.

01:47:28.000 And if you read Orwell, if you look at 1984, it's why he spends so much time talking about how the power he was writing about in that fictional account is attempting to redefine reality, redefine the past, redefine the future.

01:47:43.000 Because if you can't hold on to reality, you have no premise to scrutinize the government for whether they're telling you the truth or not.

01:47:51.000 And it's really, it is a war in that sense, hybrid war.

01:47:55.000 So information in that war becomes your most powerful weapon.

01:47:59.000 Now, most people don't have the privilege of researching these debates, foreign policy, war on terror, COVID, whatever it is.

01:48:06.000 People don't have the privilege because they're working nine to five, a minimum wage, and they're hungry and they're just busy trying to live and survive.

01:48:12.000 What they normally do is they outsource their thinking on where the truth lies to trusted voices in the media.

01:48:20.000 So it's why it becomes so important to manipulate the media, so that those trusted voices that people are looking to are no longer giving them at least the best understanding of the truth they have, but are also peddling the agenda of power.

01:48:34.000 When you're in a situation like that, it becomes difficult to define reality and therefore difficult to challenge government.

01:48:41.000 On whether or not they are sticking to their promises because everything gets shifted.

01:48:46.000 Everything's relative.

01:48:47.000 The Overton window keeps moving.

01:48:48.000 The goalposts keep shifting.

01:48:50.000 If you remember, back at the beginning of this, we were told two weeks, whatever it was.

01:48:55.000 Flatten the curve.

01:48:55.000 Flatten the curve, yeah.

01:48:56.000 Now look at us two years later.

01:48:57.000 And we're here still.

01:48:59.000 Look at Montreal.

01:48:59.000 There's still lockdown right now.

01:49:01.000 They can't go out at 10 o'clock.

01:49:02.000 The goalposts keep shifting and you're expected to forget what you were told last time.

01:49:06.000 Right.

01:49:07.000 In the UK, we were told specifically two weeks and then it went from two weeks to flatten the curve to we're only going to just wait in lockdown.

01:49:14.000 And we, by the way, we had a national lockdown, a very long one.

01:49:16.000 We're all confined to our homes.

01:49:18.000 And they said, just wait.

01:49:19.000 We're going to inoculate the most vulnerable.

01:49:22.000 Just think of granny. 0.98

01:49:23.000 Don't kill granny. 1.00

01:49:23.000 Yeah? 1.00

01:49:24.000 So, by the way, my grandmother died in all of this.

01:49:26.000 So again, I'm not anti-grandmother, yeah?

01:49:28.000 I wasn't allowed to attend her on her deathbed while the Prime Minister and all of his special advisers and all of the Cabinet were drinking with cheese and wine parties in Downing Street, breaking all the rules, which has all come out now in the press.

01:49:40.000 And it's not just me.

01:49:41.000 Many people in the UK went through that horrific experience.

01:49:43.000 We couldn't even visit our dying relatives, and they were partying meanwhile.

01:49:47.000 The Health Secretary caught on video camera having an affair in his office, in government offices.

01:49:52.000 Right?

01:49:52.000 Matt Hancock.

01:49:54.000 So we went through that whole lockdown.

01:49:55.000 It went from two weeks to flatten the curve to, okay, just wait until we just vaccinate the vulnerable.

01:50:00.000 Then it was, just wait, we're going to vaccinate everyone over 40, which is when I originally got it, right? 0.92

01:50:05.000 Now I'm 44. Then it was, just wait until we vaccinate all the adults and get herd immunity.

01:50:10.000 Then they shifted the goalposts again.

01:50:12.000 Just wait until we vaccinate the kids.

01:50:14.000 Now, the JCVI in the UK, the Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation, failed, did not recommend to the government.

01:50:21.000 They failed to recommend vaccinating children.

01:50:24.000 Government went ahead anyway, said, no, no, no, we have to vaccinate the kids.

01:50:27.000 You keep shifting the goalposts like 1984, George Orwell.

01:50:31.000 And you keep telling people, gaslighting the people, that's not what we said.

01:50:35.000 No, no, no, no.

01:50:36.000 We didn't just say, wait until we did, you know, vaccinate.

01:50:39.000 No, you're getting it wrong.

01:50:40.000 Kept gaslighting the people, shifting the definition of reality, playing with people's memories.

01:50:46.000 That serves a purpose.

01:50:48.000 In this hybrid war, in which information is the weapon, it serves a purpose because you've got to disorient, confuse, and create self-doubt in the citizens so they no longer have the strength to question government.

01:51:01.000 For what they said and what they didn't deliver, or what they did deliver when they weren't meant to.

01:51:05.000 And that's how you stymie or handicap any opposition.

01:51:10.000 And in the UK, again, because there was a bipartisan consensus, even the opposition party, like with Iraq, they kept saying to every crisis, the solution was harsher restrictions, harsher restrictions.

01:51:22.000 In the end, people, the only way, when you're in that situation where you've been locked in your homes, where the state's telling you you have to get injected or you lose your job, right?

01:51:32.000 When you've lost all your rights, even by law, because the Emergency Act came in and we weren't even legally allowed to oppose any of this.

01:51:39.000 In the end, you're in a situation, the only way people get their rights back from tyranny is by taking them through activism.

01:51:46.000 You never, in that situation, the state never just gives your rights back.

01:51:49.000 Now when I say taking them, I mean civil action, I mean protests, I mean activism, I don't mean violence.

01:51:56.000 But that's why if you look to the example of England, Unlike Wales and Scotland, there were huge protests and a lot of voices, not just mine, were fierce on this to a point where England had to, you know, they couldn't, they just retreated on all of this now.

01:52:09.000 And all of the, everything I've been saying, you take up masks, you take lockdowns, you take mandatory vaccines, and I've only ever been opposed to mandates, by the way, right?

01:52:16.000 It's only about mandates for me, whether you define mandates as lockdowns or mask mandates or vaccine mandates.

01:52:22.000 For me, it's the force bit that I don't like.

01:52:24.000 I'm double jabbed, again, to remind everyone.

01:52:26.000 But everything we were saying, that mask mandates are useless, that the virus particles are millions of times smaller than the cloth mask they were telling everybody to use, that testing continuously was actually making the problem worse, that PCR tests were unreliable, they ditched the PCR tests, that lockdowns,

01:52:41.000 did anyone ever think of what we call an impact assessment?

01:52:44.000 They're going to lock you in your homes to save X number of lives.

01:52:47.000 Does that kill Y number of people more?

01:52:51.000 In other words, does it kill more people than we're saving? 0.97

01:52:53.000 Because if you were opposed to the lockdowns in those days, oh, you want to kill granny. 1.00

01:52:56.000 And my question was, if I save one granny, am I killing 10? 1.00

01:53:00.000 Isn't the way to find that out to look at overall death?

01:53:04.000 Yeah.

01:53:04.000 And whether or not it changes year after year after year?

01:53:06.000 Yeah.

01:53:07.000 So, this is the interesting point.

01:53:10.000 So since being, we'll get to what I'm doing next in terms of my media work, but very quickly I started as a substack after my services were no longer required.

01:53:19.000 And one of the things I put up in there, the last one I wrote, is this idea that this ONS statistic, the Office for National Statistics, that came out with the Freedom of Information request, And they said, yeah, 17,000, whatever it was, 730, whatever people died from only from COVID since the beginning of this pandemic,

01:53:35.000 right?

01:53:35.000 And we were told it's hundreds of thousands.

01:53:37.000 But there is a spike in all-cause mortality.

01:53:41.000 Now, if it's not from COVID, what's causing it?

01:53:43.000 That's a question that remains open.

01:53:45.000 The Times of London reported that there's been a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland.

01:53:52.000 Professor Norman Fenton and Professor Neil from Queen Mary Westfield University in London, part of the University of London, have looked at this and said there's a five-year high in all-cause mortality.

01:54:03.000 Now, if there's a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland that are as of yet unexplained, there's a five-year spike in all-cause mortality, but COVID deaths are similar to flu deaths, then what's causing all these excess deaths?

01:54:16.000 Well, how many of those people survived COVID and then had heart attacks later?

01:54:20.000 Because that is one of the side effects of COVID, is blood clots, heart issues.

01:54:25.000 So Professor Fenton, and I say he's done the research, not me.

01:54:29.000 All I'm saying is floating the question, saying these need answers.

01:54:31.000 He said that these specific spikes in deaths were specifically after vaccination.

01:54:36.000 And were those people also infected with COVID? I don't think so from memory, but I'd have to look at that.

01:54:44.000 That's the big distinction when it comes to myocarditis and all these different things.

01:54:50.000 What if you have both?

01:54:53.000 What if it's an issue where they got a bad case of COVID even though they were vaccinated?

01:54:58.000 What do you blame it on then?

01:55:00.000 To break that question down, we have to look at with COVID and off COVID deaths as well.

01:55:05.000 By the way, these talking points that you've obviously heard over the last two years, Every single one of them.

01:55:32.000 So the health secretary in the UK came out and admitted that the COVID deaths have been overestimated because there's been a mix between with COVID and of COVID, right?

01:55:40.000 We also know that, again, memory, so forgive me if this is off, but from memory, two thirds of COVID cases were caught after hospital admission rather than because of COVID. Right.

01:55:52.000 They're hospitalized for something else.

01:55:53.000 They get COVID in hospital.

01:55:54.000 That's a big thing with young people.

01:55:56.000 Now, if you put all of that together, and you recognize that there's 17,000 roughly deaths only of COVID, and there's this spike, five-year spike in all-cause mortality, it wouldn't make sense to say, did they have COVID as well, when we know that only 17,000 only, one death is too many,

01:56:11.000 but 17,000 died only of COVID, and that a lot of these people were getting COVID in hospital.

01:56:17.000 Right?

01:56:18.000 And it's a similar thing.

01:56:19.000 Like, I'm going to show you this.

01:56:20.000 Can we do something?

01:56:21.000 Yeah.

01:56:22.000 The independent newspaper, yeah?

01:56:23.000 There's this multi-gold medalist Olympian weightlifter from Hungary.

01:56:29.000 His name was Sylvester something.

01:56:31.000 But if you look up the independent, anti-vax, gold medalist, dead.

01:56:36.000 This is today's news, right?

01:56:39.000 I've got it here as well because I put it out earlier.

01:56:41.000 You could airdrop that to Jamie if you'd like.

01:56:44.000 Oh, here you go.

01:56:44.000 There he is.

01:56:45.000 Right, look at that headline.

01:56:46.000 See that headline, yeah?

01:56:47.000 Anti-vax Olympic gold medalist Sylvester Solani.

01:56:53.000 Can you know how to say his name?

01:56:54.000 I think Sylvester Solani.

01:56:56.000 It's spelled with a lot of different words.

01:56:58.000 S-Z-I-L-V-E-S-Z-T-E-R-C-S-O-L-L-A-N-Y. So he died of COVID, age 51, and they're calling him an anti-vax.

01:57:10.000 Yep.

01:57:10.000 Now, if you scroll down, please, sir, Jamie.

01:57:12.000 Scroll down to that.

01:57:13.000 Go, hit, hit. 0.94

01:57:15.000 You have to...

01:57:16.000 Oh, you have to register to keep reading.

01:57:17.000 Oh, okay.

01:57:17.000 So I've got it on my phone.

01:57:18.000 Can I send it to you?

01:57:19.000 Yeah.

01:57:20.000 How do I do that?

01:57:21.000 Actually, you might not be able to because it's...

01:57:24.000 Is this on a...

01:57:26.000 Can he...

01:57:26.000 I'll try later.

01:57:27.000 Hit that.

01:57:28.000 I'll try later.

01:57:29.000 Hit the I'll try later and you'll get to the article.

01:57:31.000 Yeah, there we are.

01:57:32.000 Right.

01:57:32.000 Okay.

01:57:34.000 If you go down to...

01:57:35.000 Yeah, there we are.

01:57:36.000 That paragraph, Walke Sloanly had, according to the publication, paragraph above it, yeah?

01:57:41.000 He contacted the virus soon after receiving his jab.

01:57:44.000 Do you see that?

01:57:46.000 So they called him an anti-vaxxer.

01:57:48.000 Six-time World Championship medalist had been vaccinated to allow him to continue work as a gymnastics coach.

01:57:53.000 However, he contracted the virus soon after receiving his jab.

01:57:56.000 And the headline calls him an anti-vaxxer.

01:57:59.000 And says he dies.

01:58:00.000 Now, this is the manipulation that's been going on.

01:58:02.000 This is from today's press.

01:58:04.000 It's still going on.

01:58:04.000 He had not built sufficient levels of antibodies.

01:58:07.000 So he was jabbed.

01:58:08.000 So, back to your question.

01:58:09.000 What's causing this spike?

01:58:11.000 Five-year spike in all-cause mortality.

01:58:12.000 How crazy is it that that's how they decide to portray him?

01:58:16.000 Go back to the headline.

01:58:17.000 There you are.

01:58:18.000 That's folly, right? 1.00

01:58:19.000 They make him look like a fool. 1.00

01:58:20.000 It's deceit. 1.00

01:58:21.000 Yeah.

01:58:21.000 Well, it's this narrative that they want to push, where whenever someone questions whether it's Eric Clapton or yourself or anyone.

01:58:31.000 They'll call you an anti-vaxxer.

01:58:32.000 This man was jabbed.

01:58:34.000 Yeah.

01:58:34.000 Now, so why I showed you that is back to that question.

01:58:37.000 If they die after the vaccination, one of the things Norman Fenton, professor from Queen Mary Westfield, in response to your question of did they have COVID too, right, is first of all, we know the COVID deaths are 17,000.

01:58:48.000 So...

01:58:49.000 And we know the majority of hospitalized cases of COVID were caught after hospitalization.

01:58:53.000 We also know, in his study, he says they died soon after the vaccination, right?

01:58:57.000 Now, you want to look at this.

01:58:59.000 Now, I'm not giving you a reason for why there's an all-five-year spike.

01:59:03.000 I'm saying these questions, as somebody that works in media, these questions demand answers.

01:59:08.000 And he's looked at this and he said, Professor Fenton and Neil from Queen Mary's, and they've said...

01:59:13.000 These deaths were soon after vaccination, this spike, right?

01:59:17.000 And they're saying their view is they have to interrogate whether the vaccination itself, whether it caused myocarditis or any other negative reaction that's caused this spike in deaths.

01:59:27.000 And that, by the way, that spike, it could then be you go to hospital and you catch COVID in hospital.

01:59:31.000 But that's not the reason you're in hospital.

01:59:32.000 We already know that.

01:59:34.000 Right.

01:59:34.000 So these are, in ordinary times, Whether it's with a thalidomide scandal that historically led to babies being born, you know, without their limbs intact, whether it's, you know, the CIA example I gave you with the hepatitis B fake vaccination program in Pakistan,

01:59:52.000 whether it's the Tuskegee experimentation on African Americans here, we know this malpractice occurs.

01:59:59.000 We know that abuse has happened historically.

02:00:02.000 Now, here you've got a vaccine that has just been rolled out, hasn't been tested in the long term, and we've got some alarming figures of an all-cause spike in mortality, and we know in instances that there is a side effect of death, as in the case of BBC journalist Lisa Shaw,

02:00:17.000 who the coroner ruled specifically died because of AstraZeneca, the vaccine.

02:00:22.000 So there are multiple questions here that demand answers, but asking those questions without drawing conclusions...

02:00:28.000 By the way, I have never on air discouraged anybody to get the vaccine.

02:00:32.000 People used to call it as a call-in show.

02:00:34.000 Members of the public would call in.

02:00:36.000 Imagine sitting there for three hours, yeah?

02:00:38.000 I give a monologue for 20 minutes and then I'm open season.

02:00:40.000 Anyone can call and interrogate me.

02:00:43.000 It's good for practice in debates, but point is, people would call up and say, should I get the jab magic?

02:00:47.000 I'd say, I'm not a doctor.

02:00:48.000 I can't advise you.

02:00:50.000 I'm talking about mandates because I tell you one thing I am, as a postgraduate of political theory, I understand how political systems work.

02:00:57.000 And my concern is more on a macro level.

02:01:01.000 These questions about deaths, what I'm concerned about is that the people who ask these questions, suddenly you find they lose their jobs, they become stigmatized, and that kind of behavior I've seen happen before, because that's what happens in tyranny when you question authority.

02:01:16.000 It's what happened to us, and it's what these great historical literary figures have always advised us to question, whether it's Orwell.

02:01:25.000 Whether it's the Gulag Archipelago, whether it's Solzhenitsyn, whether it's...

02:01:29.000 And we have that experience because of the Soviet Union, right?

02:01:32.000 We understand Darkness at Noon, right?

02:01:35.000 These books, Catch-22, Joseph Heller, about the absurdity of rules and bureaucracy that don't make sense.

02:01:41.000 The entire point of these books is to teach us do not just succumb to whatever the bureaucracy is telling you, but ask questions where things don't make sense.

02:01:49.000 And when people are trying to shut those debates down, that says more to me about what's going on than anything else.

02:01:55.000 Isn't it universal though in terms of like world government?

02:01:58.000 There's not world government that I'm aware of that's very open about what's going on about failures and mistakes and not understanding the information correctly because they were under an assumption that proved to be incorrect.

02:02:12.000 It's essentially across the board and isn't part of that just managing some sort of large-scale pandemic with a large population of people and trying to make sense of it all and trying to figure out how do you manage that?

02:02:29.000 And you have to have two different things going on.

02:02:30.000 You have to have actual solutions like medication and you also have to have optics.

02:02:35.000 You have to give the people the impression that you're managing this and you're working very hard to figure this out and you've come to some uncomfortable conclusions and you made some decisions that maybe are going to upset people, but they're going to help everyone overall.

02:02:49.000 So we need to go to the origins of COVID to see, again, on a global level then, were they acting in good faith, right?

02:02:54.000 Now, all the evidence currently indicates no.

02:02:57.000 And when you say they, who do you mean by they?

02:02:59.000 People in power.

02:03:00.000 All the people in power are acting in bad faith?

02:03:03.000 The people in power that are interacting in our reality.

02:03:06.000 I mean, when we're talking about, like, leaks and emails that have been exposed, when you talk about conversations between people that work in the Wuhan lab, those are being exposed to us very recently.

02:03:19.000 Yeah.

02:03:20.000 I'm under no impression that politicians were aware of these emails before us.

02:03:26.000 So the lab leak, let's talk through that example, yeah?

02:03:29.000 So one thing we can say, I think quite fairly, is I doubt Fauci's acting in the best possible way he should be acting.

02:03:36.000 So he knew about this slab leak thing from the very beginning, and the leaks that have now come out, even the DARPA leaks themselves, indicate that they attempted to suffocate this story.

02:03:45.000 In the UK, we have a similar example, Lancet, which is a very well-respected medical journal.

02:03:54.000 One of the guys that, well actually the guy that Fauci's federal funding supported, his name is Peter Daszak EcoHealth Alliance.

02:04:02.000 He's a Brit.

02:04:03.000 And they were the ones engaged in gain-of-function research in Wuhan in that lab.

02:04:07.000 Now, there was a letter very early on, and I was, from the beginning, I was questioning the lab leak thing.

02:04:13.000 And again, getting into trouble for doing so.

02:04:15.000 But this is before any of the leaks.

02:04:16.000 But there was still evidence to indicate something wasn't right here.

02:04:19.000 Brent Weinstein talked about it on the podcast very early on.

02:04:22.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:04:22.000 But he's an evolutionary biologist.

02:04:24.000 He understood the actual virus itself.

02:04:26.000 And that's why I got him on my show as well.

02:04:28.000 There's a video of him on my show talking about this, right?

02:04:31.000 Now, what happened is that this guy that Fauci was funding, Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance, that's not in dispute that they receive federal funding.

02:04:38.000 Fauci in Congress testified and said it wasn't gain of function to Senator Rumpel's sort of hearings.

02:04:45.000 And the leaks have subsequently indicated that they did know that this funding was being used in the lab in Wuhan to make this virus sticky, to make it stronger and to make it work for humans, to actually infect humans.

02:04:59.000 Peter Daszak, again, very early on, co-authored a letter in The Lancet, which is a very respected medical journal in the UK, in which, before these leaks came out, They declared that anybody who questions whether this was leaked from a lab is a conspiracy theorist.

02:05:15.000 And it was signed by a number of doctors, and it was among them Peter Daszak.

02:05:20.000 Peter Daszak's the guy that got the funding to do this work.

02:05:23.000 At the bottom of all Medical Journal articles, you have to declare an interest.

02:05:26.000 Are there any conflicts?

02:05:27.000 And they said, we have no conflicts of interest.

02:05:31.000 So here you've got that these guys wrote a hit piece calling anybody like Brett who questions whether it's a lab leak a conspiracy theorist, while obviously it's him, Peter Daszak, receiving funding to do that very work, writing a piece in a medical journal, smearing those who are attempting to uncover whether he'd received funding to do that very work.

02:05:49.000 I think I'm qualified enough in the human...

02:05:52.000 In human nature, at least, to be able to say he wasn't acting in our best interest.

02:05:58.000 That's a conflict.

02:05:59.000 That's a conflict.

02:06:00.000 And that, you see, from the very beginning of this thing, it happened with everything we were saying.

02:06:05.000 Lab leak, masks, lockdowns, mandates.

02:06:09.000 Eventually the truth came out, but it had to be fought for.

02:06:12.000 So that tells me that the people that were attempting to suffocate this truth, at least, not everybody, but the people that were involved in suffocating the truth and smearing dissidents, while knowing because the leaks indicate that they knew, right, they weren't acting in our best interests.

02:06:27.000 And I think that's a fair conclusion to reach.

02:06:31.000 What were they doing?

02:06:32.000 They were attempting to use this emergency to usher in a new way of doing things.

02:06:38.000 Vaccine passports, even though in the UK and England at least now we've dropped them and Ireland followed suit, Czech Republic has followed suit.

02:06:46.000 But it wasn't ever about you not being able to come into say into this studio and infect me, because even after they learned that you could still infect me, the vaccine passports were still in place.

02:06:56.000 But they've told us, they meaning people in power, have told us what they want to do next.

02:07:01.000 So the UK is currently the head of the G7 group.

02:07:04.000 That's the world's most economically advanced countries.

02:07:07.000 And the UK currently chairs the G7 Group.

02:07:09.000 Our Chancellor, who does our economy, called Chancellor of the Exchequer, his name's Rishi Sunak.

02:07:14.000 He's put out this video.

02:07:15.000 This is all my feeds, by the way, my social feeds.

02:07:17.000 He put out this video saying that what they want to do is bring in this thing called the Central Banking Digital Currency.

02:07:25.000 They want to replace fiat paper money with digital money as a competitor to Bitcoin and crypto money, right?

02:07:31.000 But instead of being decentralized currency, it will be controlled by a government.

02:07:36.000 It's digital currency, but controlled centrally through the banks, Bank of England.

02:07:44.000 We're good to go.

02:08:02.000 And these, if you look up...

02:08:04.000 This sounds terrifying, by the way.

02:08:06.000 If you look up the Telegraph newspaper...

02:08:08.000 I've already Googled it, and there's a lot of headlines about it.

02:08:10.000 Yep, there's a specific article in the Telegraph, Programmable Digital Currency.

02:08:16.000 If you can't find it, I'll pull it out for my Twitter feed, and we can talk through it on my feed.

02:08:22.000 While he's looking for that, I'll talk you through it.

02:08:24.000 So one of these...

02:08:26.000 Central bank digital currency, is that the one down below?

02:08:30.000 Digital currency should be programmable.

02:08:32.000 See that one there?

02:08:33.000 He's looking at it even on the search.

02:08:34.000 It says the word programmable.

02:08:35.000 Top search result.

02:08:37.000 Third line down.

02:08:38.000 Should be programmable.

02:08:40.000 Programming.

02:08:41.000 Now, see again, there's a paywall.

02:08:44.000 Start your free trial.

02:08:46.000 But you can see the word there, right?

02:08:47.000 Programming in the headline.

02:08:48.000 Now what they're doing is they're saying...

02:08:50.000 That this digital currency, because everyone knows that with inflation at over 5%, it's now 5.4%, right?

02:08:57.000 Our fiat money, the paper money, is increasingly becoming worthless and we're headed towards a big disaster.

02:09:02.000 The Fed wants to raise interest rates.

02:09:05.000 We're in so much debt that if you raise interest rates, people are going to suffer because we're living on debt as Western economies.

02:09:13.000 So they realize that the lifespan of paper money is fast coming to an end because of the 2008 economic crash in particular.

02:09:20.000 So they're bringing in these central banking digital currencies.

02:09:23.000 Why is that word programmable in there?

02:09:25.000 So what they said in that article, and the Chancellor put a video out saying this as well, they said, right, Think back to what vaccine passports were, yeah?

02:09:33.000 If you don't have your jab, you can't even eat in this restaurant.

02:09:36.000 What they've said, and why the word programmable was in that headline was, they've said that this money that you will earn from work, instead of having paper money, you have this digital money, it's programmable so that you can't buy certain foods, or if you do something that your employer doesn't like, it's all in that article.

02:09:51.000 You won't be able to spend your money.

02:09:53.000 In other words, it's not money, they're vouchers.

02:09:56.000 They're like food vouchers.

02:09:57.000 And they can be programmed so that, like the Chinese social credit system, that if you try and use them on a certain thing, it won't work.

02:10:04.000 Say you want to buy a burger and they want you to buy bugs, which is one of the examples used.

02:10:09.000 If you start to try and buy unhealthy meat, it just won't work.

02:10:12.000 You tap your card, you can't buy the thing because you've met your quota that month of burgers.

02:10:17.000 You have to buy something like a vegan meal.

02:10:19.000 So it won't just be money in the sense of the way we have dollars or pounds today.

02:10:25.000 It'll be something that's controlled in terms of your ability to distribute it.

02:10:29.000 Which is why I'm calling it a voucher.

02:10:30.000 It's a coupon.

02:10:32.000 But even a coupon, if you have a coupon to buy bread, you can still buy the bread.

02:10:37.000 But you can't buy...

02:10:38.000 See, that coupon to buy bread, what you can't do is buy a burger with that coupon.

02:10:41.000 It's for bread.

02:10:41.000 Right.

02:10:42.000 So you will have this central banking digital currency, and then what they're talking about in that article that we just pulled up is they'll say, right, and it explicitly uses the words, won't be used on something that the employer deems inappropriate or the state deems inappropriate.

02:10:57.000 Oh, we've got to see this.

02:10:58.000 See if we can find that or...

02:11:00.000 I'm just digging through a different article about it, too.

02:11:04.000 There's pilot programs that are going to be used in the Olympics coming up in China.

02:11:08.000 They've already started it in Sweden. 0.97

02:11:10.000 Do you feel like you're sounding the alarm for people that don't understand what the fuck is going on?

02:11:17.000 I've pulled it up for you here. 0.96

02:11:19.000 There's the video.

02:11:20.000 I don't know if your camera can see that.

02:11:22.000 There's the video.

02:11:23.000 There's him speaking about it.

02:11:33.000 Central bank digital currencies could be a digital version of money, a bit like a digital banknote that could be used alongside...

02:11:40.000 Right, so that's the guy who runs our economy in the UK. He's named the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

02:11:43.000 And here is the article.

02:11:45.000 Bank of England tells ministers to intervene on digital currency programming.

02:11:49.000 And here's a quote from the article.

02:11:50.000 This is in the Telegraph, the one he pulled up.

02:11:51.000 But it was behind a paywall, so I'll just read the quote.

02:11:54.000 Digital cash could be programmed to ensure it is only spent on essentials.

02:11:59.000 Or goods which an employer or government deems to be sensible. 0.99

02:12:04.000 Holy shit. 0.98

02:12:05.000 Now, I'm gonna take it one step further for you, Joe, right? 0.98

02:12:07.000 So, the vaccine passport infrastructure is in place, but now we know that the vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission, but the Checkpoint Charlie exists everywhere.

02:12:17.000 They bring in digital banking, central banking, digital currencies.

02:12:21.000 You've got a scenario now that you're checking in and out everywhere you go using vouchers that are programmed and you can only spend where you're told you can spend them.

02:12:30.000 There's another word for that, man.

02:12:32.000 That's called the Chinese social credit system.

02:12:35.000 That's what it's called.

02:12:36.000 And anyone who watches Black Mirror will know what I'm talking about.

02:12:38.000 That's that TV show, right?

02:12:40.000 So what they are telling us, and when I say they, who's they?

02:12:44.000 People in power.

02:12:44.000 That's the head of our economy, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

02:12:47.000 Second most powerful person other than the Prime Minister and maybe the Foreign Secretary in the UK, right?

02:12:53.000 He's telling us, I just played it there for you.

02:12:55.000 He's telling us that's what he, as the UK, the head of the G7, want to bring in for the G7. So a scenario where like in New York at the moment, because the passport infrastructure is in place, you bring in that digital currency and you've got this total control.

02:13:09.000 And if I'm speaking to you the way I'm speaking now, and my employer or government, you heard that in the quote directly, yeah, deems me as saying or doing something inappropriate, suddenly I can't actually pay to come here and speak to you anymore.

02:13:21.000 My digital currency won't even pay for the ticket.

02:13:24.000 Because it will be known that I'm coming to speak to you.

02:13:27.000 Sorry, your vouchers don't allow you to purchase that ticket to go and speak to Joe.

02:13:30.000 And this is where we get into the kind of censorship that we see in social media that is not...

02:13:36.000 It's not...

02:13:38.000 You can't have that kind of censorship with the First Amendment.

02:13:42.000 In normal discourse.

02:13:44.000 But you can have that kind of censorship if you've developed a digital platform that distributes information but it's a private company.

02:13:52.000 So think about what money is where you can spend it on whatever you want versus this digital currency which is essentially controlled in a sense like you have free speech on Twitter but you really don't.

02:14:06.000 Because if you go too far or you talk about something that they don't find appropriate they'll just ban your account.

02:14:11.000 That could be what we're looking at in terms of what we think of as free speech being social media platforms could be what we think of as your free-range ability to buy whatever you want with whatever money that you've earned.

02:14:24.000 So what's going on here, right?

02:14:27.000 We're in a moment in history.

02:14:28.000 And this is why I said to you what I can speak to you about with a bit more authority than even the science debate.

02:14:33.000 And I've done my homework on the science debate.

02:14:35.000 I had to because I had a live show and I was interrogated by the public for three hours on a call-in show.

02:14:40.000 I had to have done my homework.

02:14:41.000 And the way you've seen me be able to pull out my receipts, yeah?

02:14:44.000 Yes.

02:14:44.000 That's what I had to do on the show.

02:14:45.000 But put the science aside.

02:14:46.000 Where I will speak with a level of authority is political theory.

02:14:52.000 Right?

02:14:53.000 I'm a postgraduate and I spent my entire life involved in political structures and political activism and thinking about social contracts.

02:15:01.000 Now, what's going on here is, with this central banking digital currency, if you get to that situation where you end up with the Chinese social credit system in the West, why?

02:15:13.000 Why would anyone want to do that, right?

02:15:16.000 I believe we're in a moment of the Gutenberg press.

02:15:19.000 Go back to when the printing press was invented.

02:15:22.000 Technology disrupts power structures.

02:15:25.000 It always has.

02:15:26.000 Printing and its invention was a new technology.

02:15:29.000 What happened when they invented the printing press?

02:15:31.000 The power structures who up until that point were reading the Bible for you and were telling you that you're going to pay this priest X amount of favors and he'll forgive you your sins.

02:15:42.000 And that became a bribery system, right?

02:15:44.000 Which is what Martin Luther was so upset about when he pinned his thesis to the wall.

02:15:51.000 The printing press disrupted that power dynamic because people could read the Bible for themselves.

02:15:55.000 And they began realizing that the power structures were manipulating what was written to control people.

02:16:02.000 Now, nobody in hindsight is going to argue that printing and its invention is a bad thing for humanity.

02:16:08.000 But at the time, it led to war.

02:16:09.000 It led to the 30 years war in Europe.

02:16:12.000 Because it disrupted power so much that people began rising up and it led to this 30 year period of war, which eventually led to the Reformation and the rest is history, right?

02:16:23.000 What's today's Gutenberg press?

02:16:25.000 The internet.

02:16:26.000 The decentralization of information and then because of that, the internet, the decentralization of currency in the form of crypto is disrupting power.

02:16:35.000 Because the way that after The revolution of the Reformation and the printing press.

02:16:41.000 Control was still possible, though obviously not to that level, which is why we no longer have those absolute monarchies.

02:16:46.000 But control in a nation-state context was still possible to an extent because the money supply was controlled.

02:16:52.000 Now what's happening is that the invention of the internet with the decentralization of information and in particular here the decentralization of currency in the form of cryptocurrencies is disrupting those power hierarchies and it's leading to this conflict now.

02:17:05.000 And we're in a moment.

02:17:06.000 When the printing press was invented, the powers that be needed to try and hold on to that power as the Thirty Years' War kicked off.

02:17:13.000 They eventually lost it.

02:17:15.000 But to hold on to it, they became very brutal because they were losing their grip on power.

02:17:20.000 Today, this is what I believe we're witnessing.

02:17:23.000 It's not about vaccine passports.

02:17:25.000 This was a red herring.

02:17:27.000 To have the infrastructure in place that you can have a Checkpoint Charlie society so that when the central banking digital currencies are in place that infrastructure is already there because people were so scared they voluntarily allowed you to put that in place so that you can maintain your grip on power because what's coming around the corner is the decentralization of everything of media therefore of narrative and of course remember whoever defines the truth gets to define reality decentralization of narratives decentralization of the economy through crypto You no longer have the power

02:17:57.000 to define the story and control the money supply.

02:18:00.000 So the powers that be who are losing that power need to clamp down.

02:18:04.000 They're clamping down on their own children because we are people who are born of the West.

02:18:09.000 So it's an internal civil war in a hybrid war context Over truth and over information.

02:18:16.000 Centralization versus decentralization, basically.

02:18:19.000 It's no longer about left or right.

02:18:20.000 It's about up versus down.

02:18:22.000 It's about power versus those who don't have power.

02:18:24.000 Do you think if there was no cryptocurrency, if there was no Bitcoin or any of the other crypto coins, that they would attempt to do some sort of digital currency?

02:18:34.000 Do you think that this is a response to the understanding that that Decentralized digital currency is eventually going to take over or has gained far more momentum than they ever anticipated.

02:18:45.000 I think so.

02:18:46.000 And also decentralized media because you can't control the narrative.

02:18:49.000 See how easy it was to convince everybody initially that the Iraq war was needed. 0.90

02:18:54.000 Right?

02:18:55.000 Now you've got a point today where they haven't been able to convince people of their measures that they wanted to bring in when COVID struck, because it was quicker to be able to unpick that narrative due to decentralization.

02:19:08.000 Shows like this that weren't under the traditional yoke of traditional media were able to have certain conversations.

02:19:15.000 Now that means that it's harder to control the narrative.

02:19:17.000 And so in a situation like that, when you're losing your grip and power, the only option you have left is to clamp down.

02:19:23.000 And I'm sorry to say, but that means, like the 30 Years War in Europe after the printing press was invented, we may be in for a bit of a rough ride ahead.

02:19:31.000 But we are literally facing a crossroads.

02:19:33.000 Do we go down the direction of centralization or decentralization?

02:19:37.000 It's obvious where I stand.

02:19:39.000 I think ultimately, like happened eventually after the wars of 30 Years War and...

02:19:45.000 Eventually people need to be respected and they will win.

02:19:48.000 They will win this.

02:19:49.000 And we'll end up with a better future.

02:19:51.000 But there's going to be some short-term pain.

02:19:54.000 And what do you mean by that?

02:19:56.000 There will be another emergency, whether it's war with Russia, which is already being played up.

02:20:01.000 Whatever it is, whether it's the crash of the economy because of the fiat and the inflation at 5.4%, at least in the UK, it's 5.4% here.

02:20:07.000 I know it's out of control here as well.

02:20:09.000 If the currency collapses because we're living on printed money at the moment, it's called quantitative easing.

02:20:14.000 We are literally printing ourselves money to try and pay for our debt.

02:20:18.000 We're just printing more money.

02:20:20.000 That's unsustainable.

02:20:21.000 So we're in this situation where any other crisis could occur.

02:20:25.000 If the gas, Putin controls Europe's gas supply.

02:20:29.000 If there's a war with Ukraine, he cuts off the gas supply.

02:20:32.000 There's a Nord Stream 2 pipeline that services Germany, but also other European countries are dependent on Russian gas.

02:20:39.000 So if he shuts off the gas supply, you end up with food shortages.

02:20:44.000 Now, you can go one of two ways.

02:20:45.000 If there's riots because people are hungry, that's a perfect pretext to bring in more draconian power to control society.

02:20:52.000 And people will want it because nobody wants to live with riots.

02:20:56.000 I mean, people moving away from the West Coast and San Francisco in particular because of some of the crime problems there, right?

02:21:03.000 So people move away from that.

02:21:04.000 But if you've got food shortages everywhere and people end up rioting, it's a good reason to say, right, we need more power to control this.

02:21:12.000 We need more emergency powers.

02:21:13.000 We need stronger laws.

02:21:14.000 And so you end up in a situation where crises can be manipulated to bring in stronger and stronger authority, when really what's going on is we're in this crossroads in history.

02:21:25.000 Now we will get out of this because ultimately it's a numbers game and ultimately in times like this you end up fighting against your own sons.

02:21:31.000 It's those in power fighting their own people and eventually the people by sheer numbers end up becoming the people in power.

02:21:38.000 So in the long run we may well end up in a decentralized world which will be much better.

02:21:45.000 But as I say that to get there we have to get through this period of those in power attempting to hold on to that power.

02:21:53.000 Do you think it's possible that we won't get there and then we'll wind up in a more draconian centralized world?

02:22:00.000 Everything's possible.

02:22:01.000 Professor John Gray at the LSE questions the idea that history moves in a positive trajectory.

02:22:08.000 He questions the idea that we're only ever going to get better.

02:22:11.000 His theories in the context of liberalism.

02:22:14.000 We must never take anything for granted, but it's why I've been so vocal.

02:22:18.000 Because everything we've just spoken about, I've looked at this, I've had to reason myself out of totalitarian systems, and so when I see that what I joined, kind of our values that we believe and hold dear to, our civil liberties, what I sacrifice things to defend,

02:22:33.000 if the thing I'm defending is moving in that direction as well, I can see that pattern, I can see the early warning signs.

02:22:40.000 Hannah Arendt is a German-Jewish philosopher, was. 0.99

02:22:44.000 She wrote about the rise of totalitarianism in Germany to try and understand it.

02:22:49.000 In fact, was one of the leading and first philosophers to try and dissect totalitarianism and how it emerged.

02:22:56.000 And she coined this theory, which everybody can look it up.

02:22:59.000 It's called the banality of evil.

02:23:01.000 And her basic point was she ended up living her final years in Israel and she was really interested in understanding how ordinary, everyday, nice people became Nazis. 0.61

02:23:12.000 And the banality of evil is her theory that explains it.

02:23:15.000 And the point was that actually good people can do evil things.

02:23:20.000 And they don't even realize they're doing them.

02:23:21.000 And it's incremental.

02:23:22.000 It's step by step.

02:23:23.000 And each incremental step is justified for the common good.

02:23:27.000 Until like a proverbial frog being boiled alive in water, and because it's a frog and its skin temperature changes with the water, it doesn't realize it's being boiled alive until it's too late and it dies with the boiling water.

02:23:38.000 It doesn't jump out.

02:23:39.000 So take that proverb, that story, and apply it to Hannah Arendt's theory of the banality of evil.

02:23:45.000 That if you incrementally change, step by step, you change society, before you even realise it, you've got to a point that it's past the point of no return.

02:23:55.000 If that happens, it's very difficult to get out of that without external intervention.

02:24:01.000 Well, you see this mindset that's very disturbing and online and social media.

02:24:05.000 You see this mindset from people that if you had talked to them four or five years ago, they would never advocate denying anyone medical help for diseases for something that they had caused, like say obesity,

02:24:20.000 something that was a personal choice they had made or an addiction that they had to food or what have you.

02:24:26.000 Drug addictions no one would ever deny medical treatment to those people you would never advocate for that especially not publicly and openly and then other an entire group Especially now that we know what you said about how the vaccine at a certain point in time no longer stops transmission No longer stops infection like you're still giving it to people and you're still getting it So if that is the case and we know that to be the case now How can anybody in their right mind,

02:24:56.000 under good conscience, advocate that someone would be denied medical care?

02:25:01.000 Because they didn't subscribe to the same thing you subscribed to, because they didn't take this inoculation that you took.

02:25:08.000 Right, so we know that in Israel, when you look at rates, so in terms of percentages now, not just raw figures, but percentages, the rate of COVID is higher among the boosted than it is among...

02:25:20.000 But don't they have a much higher rate of boosted people?

02:25:23.000 So that's why I'm saying it's a comparative figure.

02:25:26.000 Okay.

02:25:26.000 It's adjusted for percentages.

02:25:28.000 Okay, so it's even adjusted for percentages.

02:25:30.000 But they have a very low percentage of people that are unvaccinated, right?

02:25:33.000 So you can sample that with control groups.

02:25:34.000 Is it like less than 10%?

02:25:35.000 It's low.

02:25:36.000 It is low, but there are still some in Israel.

02:25:38.000 But also in the UK these studies have been done, looking at percentages and rates.

02:25:42.000 Prior to Omicron even, in the UK they found that the rate, this is in fact in the Spectator magazine, you can put it up, the rate of COVID is higher among the vaccinated than the unvaccinated.

02:25:53.000 Rate, not numbers.

02:25:54.000 So what do they attribute that to?

02:25:58.000 I don't want to get into the science because you can speak to people like Robert Malone, as you've done, and they can get into the science here.

02:26:03.000 The questions as to whether, for example, one thing we do know is our health secretaries admitted that it is not normal to roll out mass vaccination during a pandemic, because what that is said to encourage is mutated versions that can evade the vaccine.

02:26:17.000 Right?

02:26:18.000 And there's a video of our health secretary even admitting that now.

02:26:21.000 We were saying that a long time ago.

02:26:22.000 They're all admitting this stuff now.

02:26:24.000 And there's something called ADE, which is antibody-dependent enhancement, that the virus could indeed, through evolutionary processes, learn what to evade while it's still in its early stages of its first wave and its second wave, which is why what normally used to happen is you wait for the three waves of a typical pandemic before you start inoculating against that pandemic.

02:26:44.000 But to try and inoculate in the middle of a virus, some scientists are saying, only encourages antibody-dependent enhancement.

02:26:51.000 In other words, a mutated version that specifically targets the vaccinated because it's evolved to evade that spike protein.

02:26:59.000 But take that science away, right?

02:27:01.000 And just let's discuss it from the idea that mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic, right?

02:27:06.000 You get to a point now where it's openly accepted in media narratives now that this vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission.

02:27:14.000 And there are articles explicitly saying that the rate of those vaccinated is higher than those who are unvaccinated.

02:27:20.000 But they're still insisting on the vaccine passport.

02:27:24.000 And they're still insisting on demonizing the unvaccinated.

02:27:27.000 Now, take Canada.

02:27:28.000 A father was denied access to his child by a judge, reported by the BBC, denied access, visiting rights, to his child by a judge because he was unvaccinated on the request of the mother.

02:27:42.000 What purpose does demonizing the unvaccinated serve if the science is no longer supporting their arguments?

02:27:48.000 What purpose does it serve to say you can't have an organ transplant if you're not vaccinated?

02:27:53.000 We'll deny you service in a hospital or we'll lock down only the unvaccinated. 1.00

02:27:57.000 Now we know what we know.

02:27:58.000 What purpose do these draconian measures serve?

02:28:00.000 The only thing that makes sense to my mind is what we were talking about because they are very keen to make sure the infrastructure is there for the central banking digital currencies.

02:28:09.000 You need A checkpoint society to live in that digital world like China. 0.99

02:28:15.000 So meaning they need people to follow every step of what they're mandating, what the law is, what they're advocating for with no dissent.

02:28:26.000 The unvaccinated are living proof that vaccine passports are illogical. 0.95

02:28:31.000 So you have to demonize that living proof because you need the checkpoint in place, the vaccine passport, not for stopping the virus.

02:28:38.000 But I don't think that the people that are advocating for this are in favor of or even aware of a digital currency system.

02:28:46.000 Well, no, they're not.

02:28:48.000 They're not.

02:28:48.000 Not the everyday person, no.

02:28:50.000 But that's what demonization, you see, it serves to shut down rational debate.

02:28:53.000 Right, but here's my question.

02:28:55.000 Is this a conspiracy or is this a natural artifact of human behavior?

02:29:00.000 Neither.

02:29:01.000 Neither.

02:29:01.000 It's a revolution.

02:29:03.000 How so?

02:29:03.000 In the wrong direction.

02:29:05.000 And there needs to be a council revolution. 0.98

02:29:06.000 How is it a revolution?

02:29:08.000 This is a power grab.

02:29:09.000 But how is it a power grab if the people that are involved, like say the health experts, the people that are doctors and medical experts that are advocating for people to be vaccinated and boosted and many who even are encouraging mandates for employees.

02:29:28.000 There's a lot of people that have no dog in the fight when it comes to a central digital currency.

02:29:36.000 They don't even know about this.

02:29:37.000 So what makes them want all these things in your eyes?

02:29:43.000 Psychological operation.

02:29:44.000 Military grade.

02:29:46.000 By who?

02:29:47.000 I'll read it for you.

02:29:47.000 Okay.

02:29:48.000 Is this the one from Canada?

02:29:49.000 No, this is now a UK example.

02:29:51.000 Okay.

02:29:51.000 So we have a unit called SAGE, which is a scientific advisory group.

02:29:56.000 That's the committee that was advising government on pandemic policy.

02:29:59.000 It's called SAGE. One of the most prominent members on that was Professor Susan Michie.

02:30:12.000 Professor Susan Mitchie, for 40 years, has been a member of the Communist Party.

02:30:18.000 First point.

02:30:19.000 And she's one of the most prominent members on the scientific advisory group in the UK that formulated, that's the formal committee that formulated our pandemic response.

02:30:29.000 This is from the Daily Mail on the 10th of June 2021 in an article by James Gant, headlined, Social distancing and face masks should stay forever, says Communist SAGE committee member Professor Susan Mitchie.

02:30:42.000 Now, keep that point in mind.

02:30:43.000 Social distancing and face masks should stay forever.

02:30:47.000 Yeah.

02:30:47.000 Keep that point in mind, and I'm going to make another point for you.

02:30:49.000 Is that a real quote?

02:30:50.000 Yeah.

02:30:51.000 That's not clickbait?

02:30:52.000 Yeah, that's directly from her.

02:30:54.000 It gets worse, Joe, right?

02:30:56.000 Here's an article.

02:30:57.000 Here it is.

02:30:59.000 Forever, in all caps, says Communist SAGE committee member Professor Susan Michie.

02:31:05.000 She said, we never used to pick up dog poo in the park, but learned to over time.

02:31:10.000 Now, let's move to the next, because I'm going to build this case up for you, because I know I said something, military-grade psychological operation.

02:31:18.000 I promise you, I'll establish that statement step by step like this, by showing you headlines every step of the way.

02:31:24.000 The Telegraph.

02:31:26.000 Reported on 14th of May 2021 in an article headlined, Use of fear to control behaviour in COVID crisis was totalitarian, admit scientists.

02:31:36.000 These are people that left that group SAGE and they came out and spoke like whistleblowers and they said, we were using fear as government policy to psychologically manipulate the public.

02:31:48.000 We call it PSYOPs, psychological operations, to try and elicit that fear response.

02:31:53.000 So in answer to your question as to why were people towing the line, they weren't involved in the power grab.

02:31:58.000 It's because they were victims and targets of state-sponsored psychological operations from the scientific committees that should have been looking after us.

02:32:06.000 Now that article in the Telegraph I said to you...

02:32:10.000 It's there for you.

02:32:10.000 Everyone sees that.

02:32:11.000 That's a national newspaper in the UK. It's not even a fringe.

02:32:13.000 It's a national broadsheet printed newspaper.

02:32:16.000 The Prime Minister used to write for that newspaper.

02:32:18.000 Yeah?

02:32:19.000 The Telegraph.

02:32:20.000 And as I say, that was the headline.

02:32:21.000 Use of fear to control behaviour in COVID crisis was totalitarian, admit scientists.

02:32:26.000 Members of the scientific pandemic influenza group on behaviour express regret about unethical methods.

02:32:32.000 Yeah?

02:32:33.000 But they used that fear to try to get people to comply with what they thought was a good thing, the vaccination.

02:32:41.000 They're realizing now, after the dust has settled, that they have regret.

02:32:45.000 They express regret about unethical methods, but they're publicly expressing this regret because they've come to this recognition.

02:32:52.000 So that doesn't seem like a conspiracy to me, more than it feels like people under pressure, So this is not me saying it's a conspiracy.

02:32:59.000 This is me saying, why did every ordinary, everyday people comply?

02:33:01.000 Because of the fear that was deliberately stoked.

02:33:04.000 Yes.

02:33:06.000 Now, we're going to carry on.

02:33:09.000 So we've got a headline here on the 13th of January 2022. This is this month, yeah?

02:33:15.000 Again in the Daily Mail.

02:33:16.000 Ministers have used propagandistic tactics to scare public into complying with COVID rules, founder of Number 10's Nudge Unit claims.

02:33:25.000 Now the Nudge Unit is a colloquial term for the Behavioural Psychology Unit in government.

02:33:30.000 It's called SPY-B, the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Behaviour Group, right?

02:33:36.000 The founder of that unit has come out now.

02:33:39.000 And I said he regrets, and he's written a column for a different platform called Unheard, and this is the news piece on his column.

02:33:46.000 So he's written a whole column expressing this regret, and he says he expressed regrets that they used these manipulative methods to encourage fear.

02:33:54.000 But it gets better.

02:33:55.000 Why do they use the word military grade?

02:33:57.000 So this so far establishes that, because intent's not relevant for me at this point, right?

02:34:01.000 What I'm describing to you is what happened.

02:34:03.000 Why were people scared?

02:34:04.000 You know, you could be well-intentioned in doing this, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

02:34:09.000 My point isn't about intentions or conspiracy.

02:34:13.000 This is just what happened.

02:34:14.000 And people need to know that they were manipulated, whether for good or bad intention.

02:34:18.000 That they were manipulated in a way that the people that did it are now expressing regret because they know that this is coming out.

02:34:25.000 So they're trying to get ahead of the curve and admit that they did it.

02:34:28.000 Now, here's another interesting one, right?

02:34:31.000 So there's an MP in the Parliament, in the British Parliament.

02:34:35.000 His name's Tobias Elwood.

02:34:36.000 He's a Conservative MP. Now, on his own Twitter page, he announces...

02:34:40.000 I'll just read it for you.

02:34:41.000 No point in Googling this.

02:34:42.000 I'll just read it for you on his own.

02:34:43.000 He's got a Twitter page.

02:34:44.000 He announces, delighted to be promoted to Lieutenant Colonel as a reservist in the 77 Brigade.

02:34:51.000 An honour to continue serving Her Majesty's Armed Forces, the most professional in the world, right?

02:34:55.000 What's the 77 Brigade?

02:34:57.000 Well, you go to their website and they tell you what they are.

02:35:00.000 Groups within 77 Brigade, and I'll just read a bit here for you.

02:35:03.000 This is on their own website, yeah?

02:35:05.000 Digital Operations Group provide a specialist capability to deliver influence, activity and products across a broad range of communications channels.

02:35:13.000 Web Ops team.

02:35:15.000 The Web Ops team collects information and understands audience sentiment in the virtual domain.

02:35:21.000 With the extent OSINT, that's Open Source Intelligence, policy framework, they may engage with audiences in order to influence perceptions to support operational outcomes.

02:35:30.000 Now the question is here, you've got a British MPs involved in a military psyops unit called the 77th.

02:35:37.000 Now I'm going to tell you something about Twitter, because we mentioned Twitter, yeah?

02:35:42.000 This is an article in the Middle East Eye.

02:35:44.000 I'll read a direct quote for you.

02:35:45.000 The date is, as it pulls up open here, 30th of September 2019, Middle East, the article by Ian Cobain and it's headlined, Twitter Executive for Middle East is British Army PsyOps Soldier.

02:36:00.000 Part-time officer has worked on behavioural change projects in the region.

02:36:05.000 Gordon Macmillan, who joined Twitter, the social media company's UK office six years ago, has for several years also served with the 77th Brigade, a unit formed in 2015 to develop non-lethal ways of waging war.

02:36:19.000 Now, I've just read for you the 77th is engaged in information operations.

02:36:24.000 Look at this.

02:36:25.000 And a Twitter executive is a member of the 77th.

02:36:28.000 A PSYOP soldier.

02:36:29.000 And this is why I said to you, military grade psychological operations.

02:36:33.000 Not just any psychological operations.

02:36:35.000 This is why people have become so scared.

02:36:38.000 They are victims of PSYOPs.

02:36:42.000 Intentions might be good.

02:36:43.000 Don't you think you, I, Jamie, your listeners had the right to know this was happening to us, regardless of the intention?

02:36:49.000 Yes.

02:36:50.000 Well, this was listed in an article in September of 2019, right?

02:36:54.000 I mean, we did know about it.

02:36:55.000 Well, that was exposed.

02:36:56.000 At least it was published.

02:36:56.000 Oh, it was exposed in September of 2019. It was exposed, yeah.

02:36:59.000 It's a leak.

02:36:59.000 It's not a...

02:37:00.000 It's an expose.

02:37:00.000 Oh, I see.

02:37:01.000 It's not the government saying, this is what we're doing to you.

02:37:03.000 How did they find out about that?

02:37:05.000 Leaks.

02:37:06.000 One thing I like about you, Majid, you come with receipts.

02:37:08.000 Receipts, right?

02:37:09.000 So when I say, now I'm going to say the statement again, and it's going to sound less crazy.

02:37:13.000 Military-grade psychological operations.

02:37:15.000 Yes.

02:37:15.000 Well, I see that.

02:37:16.000 That is military-grade.

02:37:17.000 Now, let me ask you this.

02:37:19.000 How do you think that is achieved?

02:37:21.000 Do you think that's achieved through the use of things like the IRA, like how Russia uses it, troll farms, things along those likes that manipulate narratives through paid posers, like people that are pretending to be posters, but they're really just someone who works for a government organization and they push a very specific... 0.98

02:37:40.000 Like, I get very suspicious when I see people with, like, American flags in their Twitter handle and they talk a lot of crazy shit. 0.65

02:37:47.000 I'm like, that might be a Fed. 0.98

02:37:48.000 Yeah.

02:37:49.000 You know, there's a lot of that online.

02:37:50.000 I find a lot of that on Instagram, where I'll see someone's page.

02:37:55.000 Like, someone will send me a video.

02:37:56.000 Hey, check out this video.

02:37:57.000 And I go to their page and I go, this feels suspiciously not like a person.

02:38:01.000 Like, this feels suspiciously like someone is trying to, like, get something to rile people up out there.

02:38:08.000 Their whole page has no, there's no character to it.

02:38:12.000 There's no personality.

02:38:13.000 There's no emotional engagement.

02:38:15.000 It's like a constant barrage of memes and videos that are inflammatory and data.

02:38:21.000 And I look at it and go, is this guy in Macedonia somewhere?

02:38:24.000 You know, in a troll farm?

02:38:26.000 Because we know that that's a real thing.

02:38:28.000 So it's not just...

02:38:30.000 Like, here's the thing that we're willing to accept very easily.

02:38:32.000 We're willing to accept that foreign countries are manipulating us. 0.98

02:38:36.000 Right?

02:38:36.000 We're willing to accept that Russia does that.

02:38:38.000 That the IRA... We've just seen that we're doing it.

02:38:41.000 But that's the thing like how much are we doing it and how much do we know about like the Renee DeResta's work with the IRA when she When she uncovered these hundreds of thousands Sam did a podcast with her and then I did a podcast with her afterwards and Just talking to her about the depth of the work that they do to try to get people riled up online and that's exactly what they're doing They're just entering into these Christian chat groups. 0.69

02:39:06.000 There was a an article recently that came out that showed that out of 20 of the top Christian groups on Facebook 19 of them were run by troll farms 19 of them we showed all these different like your baby daddy ain't shit that was run by troll farms all these like really wild inflammatory Meme pages run by troll farms and their purpose is just to rile people up we're accepting those like wow we're being attacked but What are we doing?

02:39:35.000 What are the intelligence agencies within this country that have a vested interest in pushing a narrative? 0.84

02:39:42.000 What are they doing in this country?

02:39:44.000 What are they doing on social media while we're getting blocked and banned left and right for all kinds of arbitrary things?

02:39:53.000 Like Unity 2020, which was Brett Weinstein's organization that was trying to pit together a very respectable member of the right and a very respectable member of the left and see if they could come up with an alternative party.

02:40:03.000 They were banned from Twitter for that.

02:40:05.000 Now, Twitter's one arena, yeah?

02:40:08.000 Yes.

02:40:08.000 One battleground.

02:40:10.000 A while back in this conversation, you said something which I appreciate you saying, and it's accurate, is that having been through all of this, I was able to identify some of these early warning signs.

02:40:22.000 I'm trained in ideological warfare, basically.

02:40:26.000 I have been, as an Islamist revolutionary, and it's why the Egyptian government put me in jail.

02:40:32.000 I know all these signs and I know how it works.

02:40:34.000 I know how you deconstruct a country for the purposes of destroying it from within.

02:40:39.000 Now, whether it's Twitter and our use of social media platforms, but it doesn't stop there.

02:40:43.000 It includes subversion through infiltration of state bodies by your operatives who are not there to serve people, but who are there to deliver the aims of your organization.

02:40:54.000 And what are the aims of the organization?

02:40:56.000 So let me play something for you by Klaus Schwab.

02:41:00.000 This is in Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government.

02:41:02.000 He's speaking in 2017. I feel like we should have Darth Vader music playing when that guy talks.

02:41:07.000 Please do it when I play.

02:41:08.000 Seriously?

02:41:09.000 Can you get Darth Vader music?

02:41:10.000 Hold on.

02:41:11.000 Hold it, please.

02:41:13.000 We're going to have the proper music.

02:41:16.000 For this amazing introduction of Xi Jinping.

02:41:19.000 Are you ready?

02:41:20.000 Yeah.

02:41:20.000 Tell me when.

02:41:21.000 Give me some...

02:41:22.000 Okay, but we want to hear the audio as well.

02:41:28.000 I have to say, when I mention our names like Mrs. Merkel, even Vladimir Putin and so on, they all have been young global leaders of the World Economic Forum.

02:41:43.000 But what we are very proud of now is the young generation like Prime Minister Trudeau, President of Argentina and so on, that we penetrate the cabinets.

02:41:58.000 So yesterday I was at a reception for Prime Minister Trudeau and I... We know that half of this cabinet, or even more half of this cabinet, are actually young global leaders of the world.

02:42:18.000 And that's true in Argentina, too.

02:42:21.000 Wow.

02:42:21.000 Sorry.

02:42:22.000 That's true in Argentina as well.

02:42:24.000 It's true in Argentina, and it's true in France now.

02:42:27.000 I mean, with the president, with a young global leader, but what is important for me So what you got there is Emperor Palpatine speaking about how in the preludes, the first three Star Wars, how he's going to use democracy to put his people in place,

02:42:43.000 right?

02:42:43.000 He explicitly said in that quote you just heard, what we are very proud of is that we penetrate the global cabinets of countries with our World Economic Forum young global leaders, and then gave examples like Trudeau, like Macron.

02:42:54.000 And it's not just him saying this.

02:42:56.000 This is Tony Blair saying exactly the same thing.

02:42:59.000 Our teams are now embedded in governments around the world, helping them to keep their people safe during this pandemic.

02:43:14.000 But in respect also of the collateral damage done by the disease.

02:43:18.000 So we've been really focusing on three areas.

02:43:21.000 The first is around exit strategies, particularly in the UK and other developed countries where we've published papers.

02:43:45.000 We're good to go.

02:43:59.000 And where the food supply chains are a critical part of keeping people alive.

02:44:06.000 And then thirdly, we're working on the global coordination That one doesn't bother me.

02:44:20.000 The direct quote, though, you'll see it.

02:44:22.000 Our teams are now embedded in governments around the world.

02:44:25.000 That's actually what they wrote.

02:44:26.000 And the video is two minutes.

02:44:27.000 I didn't play all of it.

02:44:28.000 That's what he says.

02:44:28.000 But what he's saying there sounds reasonable.

02:44:30.000 Figuring out strategic ways to end the lockdown easily.

02:44:34.000 No, not the end of lockdown.

02:44:36.000 Didn't he say that?

02:44:37.000 Keep in mind, Tony Blair is the one who's been advocating for vaccine passports, digital identification through COVID, and all of these measures.

02:44:44.000 But didn't they say that about ending the lockdowns and keeping businesses?

02:44:47.000 Once those measures are in place.

02:44:49.000 So even in the UK, his stance has been, yeah, we're going to get out of it, but you have to have digital ID. And this is going to introduce the social credit score system.

02:44:59.000 Right.

02:44:59.000 So all of that came from your question, which is, regardless of intention, how do people do that infiltration from within?

02:45:08.000 It's not just Twitter.

02:45:09.000 So back to the psychological operations.

02:45:11.000 It's also embedding people in government who are subscribed to this agenda.

02:45:16.000 And the agenda of Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum is the same as the agenda of Tony Blair, in this regard.

02:45:22.000 They call it on their own website, they call it the Great Reset.

02:45:25.000 That's what they say themselves.

02:45:27.000 Yeah, that's a bizarre thing to do, to openly...

02:45:30.000 Why do you think they openly discuss it that way?

02:45:33.000 Because the Great Reset has always been this gigantic conspiracy theory among the online folks.

02:45:38.000 Like, this is all part of the Great Reset. 0.98

02:45:39.000 Well, when he wrote a fucking book called the Great Reset, you're like... 0.98

02:45:42.000 Hey man, shouldn't you be hiding this? 0.98

02:45:45.000 And in 2017 at Harvard, he's saying, you know, we're going to basically, all of these world leaders will penetrate their cabinets with our young global leaders.

02:45:52.000 He's open.

02:45:53.000 He's open.

02:45:54.000 Blair's open.

02:45:55.000 During the Iraq war, Blair tried to bring in ID cards in Britain.

02:45:58.000 He failed.

02:45:59.000 Now he's back.

02:46:00.000 And he's trying to bring in digital ID during COVID. Right?

02:46:03.000 So they're open about it.

02:46:05.000 So this is going to be this never-ending process to slowly move the goalposts.

02:46:09.000 Towards more and more authoritarianism.

02:46:12.000 Checkpoint society.

02:46:16.000 It's all there.

02:46:17.000 They told us this.

02:46:18.000 People have to realize this, right?

02:46:20.000 This is important.

02:46:21.000 Yeah.

02:46:22.000 When you were on your radio show, what kind of pushback?

02:46:27.000 Can you talk about that?

02:46:28.000 No.

02:46:29.000 Probably can't.

02:46:29.000 I can when it comes to those who disagreed with me in public.

02:46:32.000 Just not the management legal side, contract side.

02:46:34.000 But there were other broadcasters that basically...

02:46:36.000 Some called me...

02:46:40.000 Deranged is one direct quote.

02:46:42.000 Because obviously this is a whole radio group, so there's other presenters, not just my show.

02:46:49.000 When I said publicly on my feed, I will not get a booster, and I said I'm a conscientious objector to getting a booster because of mandates, and I refuse to participate in a system that removes choice.

02:47:01.000 I was called deranged for saying I didn't want to get a booster.

02:47:03.000 Soon afterwards, again, it all came out.

02:47:05.000 And they realized that the boosters weren't doing much when it comes to the spread and transmission of COVID. So they publicly came out and attacked me.

02:47:15.000 For some of the things I've said here, in fact, I've gone...

02:47:19.000 Nothing I've said here I haven't already said, by the way.

02:47:21.000 So I've been called an extremist for saying this, for having this discussion that I'm having with you.

02:47:26.000 I've been re-radicalized.

02:47:28.000 Somehow, apparently, this means that I haven't really left the group that I used to belong to.

02:47:32.000 Oh, Jesus.

02:47:33.000 Yeah.

02:47:33.000 And on top of that, I need mental help.

02:47:37.000 I've got mental health problems.

02:47:39.000 I'm being gaslit in that way, that I'm the one who's lost sense of reality.

02:47:43.000 So when you move the goalposts in that way to such an extent that the psychological operation's purpose is to gaslight the public, as happened under communism, the person who speaks up is the person that needs psychological help as opposed to...

02:47:57.000 Of course.

02:47:58.000 That is gaslighting by definition.

02:48:01.000 That's where we are but as you've seen nothing I said comes without receipts no and you know when we were easing into this conversation I had a I had a feeling it was gonna go this way but I was like I was hoping I was gonna find some holes yeah I was hoping like well maybe he's exaggerating or maybe I don't I don't see these holes So,

02:48:20.000 again, remember this, right?

02:48:23.000 For me, it's not about intention.

02:48:24.000 You can have the best of intentions and do evil.

02:48:28.000 That is what Hannah Arendt meant.

02:48:30.000 I think that's a very good point.

02:48:31.000 That's a very good point because that erases the stigma that it's attached to these conspiracy theories that there's this grand cabal of evil people that are trying to control the world.

02:48:40.000 Yeah.

02:48:40.000 Do you think that there is a sense or that they have an incentive to try to impart more control?

02:48:48.000 Because we're under direct competition with China and they have essentially total control over the way the Chinese government has control of their corporations and the corporations act for the interest of the Chinese party.

02:49:02.000 They act within the best interest.

02:49:04.000 They're not independent like, you know, say Harley Davidson or something like that, does whatever the fuck they want when they would make motorcycles.

02:49:10.000 What are you doing in China, especially if you're involved in a technology company, you work with the government?

02:49:16.000 I'll go one step further.

02:49:18.000 Okay, please.

02:49:19.000 There's something called elite capture, which is a term that I use.

02:49:22.000 I believe our elite have come under the undue influence of Chinese intelligence agencies, unfortunately.

02:49:29.000 Our elite, like who's our elite?

02:49:31.000 Our political elite.

02:49:33.000 Well, okay.

02:49:34.000 So if you look up BBC, Chinese spy, parliament, MI5 have just last month, in fact this month I think it was, warned about this.

02:49:44.000 I've been saying it since my hunger strike, which we haven't spoken about, but I went on hunger strike.

02:49:49.000 At the beginning of the pandemic because of the Uyghur genocide in China. 0.97

02:49:53.000 I did a five-day hunger strike to try and draw attention to the plight of the Uyghur Muslim community who are facing genocide in China because nobody was speaking about it in the media at the time.

02:50:02.000 It wasn't getting the attention it deserved.

02:50:05.000 And I was a mainstream broadcaster who didn't even turn up to work because I was on a hunger strike sitting outside the Chinese embassy in protest.

02:50:13.000 The purpose was to get 100,000 signatures On a petition on a UK Parliament website that would force a debate in the UK Parliament on the genocide in China.

02:50:24.000 We got the 100,000 signatures within four days and there was a debate and the UK Parliament unanimously voted in a symbolic vote that there was a genocide in China and then other countries started cascading after that.

02:50:36.000 Canada did the same, the Netherlands did the same.

02:50:38.000 Blinken here, when he was sworn in, After my hunger strike was asked in his swearing-in ceremony, he said, yes, I believe there's a genocide in China.

02:50:46.000 And then America followed suit as well.

02:50:48.000 Back in those days, when I did that hunger strike, It wasn't common.

02:50:52.000 Apart from Trump, it wasn't common for somebody from my background to speak about China.

02:50:56.000 It was seen as a Trumpian thing to do.

02:50:59.000 And people often forget how that was in those days.

02:51:02.000 And I mentioned back then that the reason I think this genocide was not getting the attention it deserved in the press was because our elite had come under the undue influence of Chinese state governments.

02:51:15.000 CCP, right?

02:51:17.000 Communist Party, not the Chinese people, but the states influence operations in the West.

02:51:22.000 And they had somehow captured our elite to head in a direction that serves the interests of China.

02:51:28.000 Now what's come out since then, it's now two years later.

02:51:32.000 Again, like with everything else I've spoken about, it's now in the press.

02:51:35.000 So there's an article in the BBC, MI5 warning over Chinese agent in Parliament.

02:51:40.000 That's from the 13th of January this month.

02:51:42.000 Now that, this lady here, she's been operating with senior parliamentarians as an active spy of the Chinese Communist Party to the point where our security services, the internal branch, MI5, had issued a rare warning, as it says at the top,

02:51:58.000 right?

02:51:59.000 And she's not the only one.

02:52:02.000 You want to read it for people that are just listening?

02:52:04.000 MI5 has issued a rare warning that an alleged Chinese agent has infiltrated Parliament to interfere in UK politics.

02:52:09.000 An alert from the security service said Christine Ching-Kui Li, I hope I've pronounced that correctly, established links for the Chinese Communist Party, CCP, with current and aspiring MPs.

02:52:19.000 She then gave donations to politicians with funding coming from foreign nationals in China and Hong Kong.

02:52:25.000 Specifically, we go down to the next few paragraphs there.

02:52:27.000 One of the MPs funded by Ms. Lee was Labour's Barry Gardner.

02:52:30.000 So this is our opposition party who received over £420,000.

02:52:35.000 That's half a million dollars.

02:52:37.000 Yeah, from her in five years.

02:52:39.000 But he said he's always made the security services aware of the donations.

02:52:42.000 Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey also received a £5,000 donation, so a lot less.

02:52:47.000 Those two parties, by the way, were very much in favour of all of the COVID mandates.

02:52:52.000 And we know that the idea of lockdowns began in China.

02:52:55.000 We know that the virus leaked from Wuhan.

02:52:58.000 We know that China has an interest in making sure that the world follows its ideology, a bit like in the Cold War where the Soviet Union wanted us to be communists.

02:53:06.000 But can you really buy the influence of these politicians for $100,000 a year to the point where they're willing to instigate these sort of COVID lockdowns?

02:53:15.000 What you do is they don't think they're being bought.

02:53:18.000 They think they're receiving money from a donor and they're serving their donor's interest like a lobby.

02:53:22.000 That's how the lobby works.

02:53:23.000 So they have discussions with them about an agenda.

02:53:26.000 Yeah, and it's like, you know, so when I first started speaking about the Uyghur genocide, it was seen as racist against the Chinese to speak about the communist influence of China in the West.

02:53:36.000 So you don't need to say to somebody, here's some money, do the bidding of the CCP. You need to say, I'm funding you as a British-Chinese citizen when actually they're working for the CCP. I'm worried about increasing anti-Chinese racism.

02:53:50.000 Again, a legitimate concern to have.

02:53:53.000 I'm going to provide money to your party and let's start trying to divert conversation away from criticizing Chinese actions because it will lead to anti-Chinese racism.

02:54:01.000 And let's instead speak about The need for Huawei, the contract with Huawei, the 5G networks.

02:54:07.000 So it's why we had this problem where it was so difficult to cancel those Huawei contracts, but we ended up cancelling them in the end after we agreed to have them because all of this got exposed after that hunger strike.

02:54:20.000 I'm not saying I'm the reason it got exposed.

02:54:22.000 I'm saying it was in chronological order just to reassure people that what I say isn't just something that I've just plucked out of my head.

02:54:28.000 It's actually then it gets reported in the press.

02:54:30.000 It's happening.

02:54:31.000 So the concern around China's influence in terms of not only our tech, Huawei and others, and the ability to enter our information through the backdoor, through the Huawei 5G networks, which have since been cancelled since Trump.

02:54:44.000 And in the UK, we followed America and cancelled those pending contracts.

02:54:48.000 It doesn't just apply to tech.

02:54:49.000 It doesn't just apply to pro-lockdown messaging in Parliament.

02:54:53.000 But you look to, we've got a nuclear reactor in the UK called Hinkley Point C. It's being built with Chinese funding.

02:55:00.000 Now I'm asking, you've got a country that's engaged in a genocide against a community for their beliefs.

02:55:04.000 It doesn't tolerate diversity. 0.89

02:55:05.000 And you're letting that nation, controlled by the CCP, work on our sensitive nuclear programs. 0.81

02:55:12.000 Now, I wouldn't do that with the Soviet Union. 0.97

02:55:15.000 And what I don't understand, moving this conversation slightly to foreign policy, is why are we not realizing that we've got this kind of consensus developing with the Biden administration that Putin and Russia are a threat, when actually you've got a bigger problem here with the CCP. Far more powerful than Russia,

02:55:32.000 far more organized, have far more centralized control, and are far wealthier, and their military is far stronger.

02:55:38.000 And we've got a real elephant in the room, and that is the increasing power of the CCP ruled China.

02:55:44.000 And the influence isn't just military, but it's also soft power.

02:55:48.000 So when the lockdowns first began, I signed a joint letter with other signatories.

02:55:54.000 And one of the signatories was General Spaulding, here at the US General.

02:55:57.000 And it's online still.

02:56:00.000 And we directly alleged that Chinese influence operations have been responsible for a lot of this idea that lockdowns were our solution.

02:56:08.000 It was the first nation that implemented lockdowns.

02:56:10.000 And then Italy and Europe followed after China, and then the rest of Europe followed after that.

02:56:15.000 And Michael Senger, who's one of the signatories to that letter, has written an extensive book on this, tracing step-by-step, the way I've gone through receipts with you here, he's gone through step-by-step these influence operations where the CCP have been encouraging a draconian response to COVID and all of this technocracy that is eventually going to arise in the form of Checkpoint Charlie Society and Central Banking Digital Currencies.

02:56:39.000 They've been encouraging other nations to implement these...

02:56:43.000 Their model.

02:56:44.000 And how do they get away with that?

02:56:46.000 How do these other nations comply?

02:56:49.000 They comply because of influence?

02:56:51.000 Influence operations, funding, intelligence operations, as you see.

02:56:55.000 And because of that, they're willing to impart laws that they would not normally do?

02:57:00.000 Who?

02:57:01.000 The governments that they're being influenced.

02:57:03.000 The governments, whether it's Great Britain, whether it's the United States, these governments are being influenced, in your mind?

02:57:10.000 With the help of the agenda coming from other non-state actors, such as the World Economic Forum, and their teams penetrating cabinets across the world, as Klaus Schwab said, there are some supranational interests here that exist above the nation-state,

02:57:26.000 working, as I said to you, as a power grab, working to define the future in a certain direction, and that is to make sure that decentralization doesn't happen.

02:57:34.000 The mother of centralization is the CCP. So we're at a crossroads historically.

02:57:39.000 We can either move towards decentralization and people power, which means local governments, decentralized power, community, family, and a separation of powers, or we move in a CCP direction.

02:57:53.000 And there's a term for this in political science.

02:57:55.000 It's called the Thucydides trap.

02:57:58.000 How does a rising power overtake an existing power?

02:58:01.000 Rising power, China, existing power, America. 0.77

02:58:03.000 How does a rising power overtake an existing power without war?

02:58:07.000 The term Thucydides' trap is a term to describe that historically, whenever we've been in this moment, war has happened.

02:58:16.000 We're good to go.

02:58:32.000 But that's the moment I believe we are in, in history.

02:58:34.000 And I'll just say, I don't know how long we have, by the way, and I'm talking a little bit.

02:58:38.000 We basically just hit the three-hour mark.

02:58:39.000 Cool.

02:58:40.000 I mean, I don't know how long you're comfortable with talking, but I'm happy to stop whenever you want me to.

02:58:45.000 The situation now in Ukraine, I believe it's a folly.

02:58:50.000 Russia and Putin, of course, like all governments, they have their own interests, their own agendas.

02:58:55.000 But what we really should be looking at isn't throwing Russia further into the bosom of China, which is what we're doing at the moment.

02:59:03.000 You've got a Russia-China alliance against us.

02:59:06.000 Surely, if we're going to be clever, we need to be able to use diplomacy with Putin and separate Russia from China. 0.84

02:59:13.000 Because the bigger danger is China, not Russia. 0.69

02:59:16.000 Russia isn't our friend, but the bigger danger is China. 1.00

02:59:20.000 The way we're behaving at the moment, whether it's with Ukraine or in Syria, is we're pushing that alliance closer.

02:59:27.000 You've got Iran, Russia, China, and they've got cooperation.

02:59:31.000 With Biden's screw-up in Afghanistan, and not the fact we withdrew.

02:59:35.000 I've never been for the war, as we've discussed.

02:59:37.000 But the way he withdrew.

02:59:39.000 The Taliban now have more Black Hawk helicopters than the entire British Army because of Biden, right?

02:59:46.000 The Bagram Air Base, that was the American base in Afghanistan, the Daily Mail reported, and you can look it up if you want to, but I'll just tell you, the Daily Mail reported that Chinese military have now landed at Bagram.

02:59:55.000 So you've got this axis developing Russia, China, Iran, and Afghanistan, ruled by the Taliban.

03:00:01.000 If we're going to be clever, we've got to realize this rising bloc It's not in our interest for them to stay united in that way.

03:00:09.000 We should be attempting diplomacy with Russia and focusing on China as a rising concern.

03:00:15.000 Because unlike Russia, not only does China have a stronger economy and a stronger military, those things I can handle.

03:00:22.000 The problem I've got is China is stronger ideologically. 0.97

03:00:25.000 It has a alternative consensus about that crossroads we're at.

03:00:30.000 China has a centralized system and it has soft power to advocate for that centralized system.

03:00:36.000 It believes in itself and its technocracy and its social credit system.

03:00:40.000 In other words, it's like the Soviet Union. 0.71

03:00:42.000 It has the ability to sell itself because it's cohesive.

03:00:45.000 Russia doesn't have that centralized social credit system.

03:00:48.000 It doesn't have that, you know, thing that the Chinese have with that kind of strong centralized power with an ideology behind it.

03:00:53.000 Russia is a traditional country, not an ideological country, at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

03:00:59.000 What we should be worried about is the ideological country because ideologies peddle soft power and they influence minds with their agenda and they influence narratives.

03:01:08.000 And what we've missed, because we aren't in the West attuned to ideological warfare, We've missed that bit.

03:01:15.000 We've missed the fact that the CCP has been influencing through its narratives, it's been influencing the world in this hybrid war way with its disinformation campaigns.

03:01:24.000 A lot of these fake accounts on Twitter, by the way, Twitter themselves have confessed that a lot of them were run by the CCP. And so this disinformation is being peddled from that side.

03:01:34.000 If we could divide Russia from China, we stand a stronger chance in that Thucydides trap moment of the rise of China, how to navigate around that. 0.96

03:01:43.000 I feel like you and I could have another 15 of these three-hour conversations.

03:01:47.000 So we've got to do this again.

03:01:50.000 Can I quickly tell you what I'm doing next?

03:01:51.000 Yes, please.

03:01:52.000 So having, how do I put this diplomatically?

03:01:55.000 Having had my services no longer required for my mainstream media.

03:01:59.000 You should have a podcast.

03:02:00.000 And I know I've said that to a billion people.

03:02:01.000 And I'm going to say it to you because I think you more than anybody are qualified for this.

03:02:06.000 Well, I will.

03:02:06.000 I'll be on.

03:02:07.000 So that's what I wanted to tell you.

03:02:08.000 So there's three things I'm going to do.

03:02:11.000 My service is no longer being required on that talk show.

03:02:14.000 So I'm working with Odyssey, which is an online video platform like YouTube.

03:02:19.000 Yes.

03:02:19.000 But it's decentralized.

03:02:20.000 So the video sits on a blockchain.

03:02:23.000 So that YouTube yesterday took down Dan Bongino's show.

03:02:26.000 Yeah.

03:02:26.000 They took it down?

03:02:27.000 Took it down.

03:02:28.000 Suspended.

03:02:28.000 And they took down trigonometry.

03:02:30.000 Well...

03:02:31.000 Okay, when they take these down, they've taken them down for a specific period of time or forever?

03:02:35.000 I don't know.

03:02:36.000 But that's why I decided...

03:02:37.000 I know the trigonometry thing.

03:02:38.000 I heard Jordan Peterson told me about that last night.

03:02:40.000 I was shocked.

03:02:41.000 So I thought, I'm not going to go down that route in the first place.

03:02:44.000 There we are, permanently banned.

03:02:45.000 Permanently banned Dan Bongino.

03:02:46.000 What did he say?

03:02:48.000 I mean, it came out of nowhere, right?

03:02:49.000 So I don't imagine he said anything.

03:02:50.000 Let's have a look.

03:02:51.000 YouTube on Wednesday permanently banned conservative commentator Dan Bongino from the platform saying he attempted to evade a previous suspension.

03:02:57.000 I mean, you know how this works.

03:02:58.000 So he violated the rules by trying to evade a previous suspension, I think it says.

03:03:03.000 The Fox host uploaded a video to his main channel while his secondary channel, which primarily hosted short clips from his digital radio show, was actively suspended for violating YouTube's COVID-19 misinformation policy.

03:03:14.000 When a channel receives a strike, it is against our terms of services to post content or use another channel to circumvent the suspension.

03:03:21.000 Okay, well that...

03:03:23.000 Meanwhile, newspapers can say anti-vaxxer dies while he's vaccinated, and there's no repercussions for that.

03:03:28.000 Right.

03:03:28.000 Anyway, so the point is, whether it's him, whether it's trigonometry, they've been taken down.

03:03:32.000 So I didn't want to go down that route.

03:03:33.000 So I've been speaking to Odyssey.

03:03:36.000 Julian is their CEO, and he's been very kind.

03:03:38.000 And I'm gonna put my show on this other platform called Odyssey, which is decentralized.

03:03:43.000 Isn't Brett's show on that as well?

03:03:44.000 I think so.

03:03:45.000 Yeah.

03:03:45.000 And it's called Radical with Majid Nawaz.

03:03:47.000 There's Rumble, which is another platform that's more open.

03:03:51.000 So I spoke to those guys too, but I think with me, with Odyssey, see it's built on the blockchain tech?

03:03:55.000 Yes.

03:03:56.000 And Rumble, I don't think its videos are decentralized in that way.

03:03:59.000 So even if the Odyssey website's removed, The library blockchain check that those videos sit on stay on the blockchain, and I will then own my own content.

03:04:08.000 So that's my idea.

03:04:09.000 I think I want to live by example.

03:04:11.000 If I'm worried about going either in a centralized direction with the planet or a decentralized direction, I want to try and move my own media content in the decentralized way.

03:04:20.000 Walk to walk.

03:04:21.000 And the other thing I've got is that substack, which I set up as soon as I lost my gig.

03:04:25.000 And I do sort of written content on there.

03:04:28.000 And finally, I'll be doing some collaboration with Getter as an alternative to Twitter just to try and have that diversity on the Twitter space.

03:04:34.000 I'll be doing some videos and live streaming and tweet content on Getter as well.

03:04:38.000 But those three, Odyssey, Substack and Getter, will be where people will be able to find me.

03:04:43.000 The content's called Radical, whether it's on Odyssey's, Radical with Majid Nawaz.

03:04:47.000 On Substack, it's called the Radical Dispatch.

03:04:49.000 And my name on Getter, you can find me on there as well.

03:04:53.000 Majid, I appreciate you.

03:04:55.000 This was everything I wanted and more.

03:04:57.000 I'm so glad we did it, and we will do it again.

03:05:00.000 My pleasure.

03:05:00.000 Thank you very, very much.

03:05:02.000 All right.

03:05:02.000 You heard it, folks.

03:05:05.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 19, 2022

Joe Rogan Experience #1780 - Maajid Nawaz

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